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#rockbox log for 2014-01-06

00:07:27 Quit cmhobbs__ (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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02:54:35[RFC2812]i'm using 8566cd7-13122 for iPod Classic (26 December nightly) and the image viewer doesn't load 150KB 320x240 bitmaps properly
02:55:04[RFC2812]and i have a tangent for this: why are there two possible sizes for bitmaps of these dimensions?
02:55:05[RFC2812]150KB and 225KB
02:55:45[RFC2812]i've already tried the images in MSPaint and they show normally
02:56:05[RFC2812]but on the iPod, these images are incorrectly colour-mapped
03:00
03:00:33 Join Marex [0] (~Marex@195.140.253.167)
03:10:50 Quit Marex (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
03:18:02[RFC2812]ping
03:18:07[RFC2812]:(
03:19:25JdGordonthe image viewer doesnt handle .bmp anyway does it?
03:19:31[RFC2812]yes it does.
03:19:47[RFC2812]it handled it well for a while
03:19:52JdGordondunno
03:20:00[RFC2812]let me see if the backsplash does the same thign
03:20:20[RFC2812]i cant screenshot it because it shows up correctly in mspaint
03:20:24[RFC2812]i mean i could screenshot
03:20:28[RFC2812]let me try this
03:21:01[RFC2812]crap .rock files dont run in the sim for some reason
03:21:05[RFC2812]nothing runs in the sim
03:21:13[RFC2812]except the image itself
03:22:11[RFC2812]yeah the backdrop does the same
03:23:23JdGordonhow did you create the bmp?
03:23:33[RFC2812]screendump
03:23:48JdGordonon the device?
03:23:52[RFC2812]yes
03:23:57JdGordonand it cant view it?
03:24:04[RFC2812]it views it incorrectly
03:24:06JdGordoncan your pc view it?
03:24:10[RFC2812]yes.
03:24:16JdGordonincorectly how?
03:24:17[RFC2812]01 56 21: 15<1415[RFC2812]> i've already tried the images in MSPaint and they show normally
03:24:17[RFC2812]01 56 41: 15<1415[RFC2812]> but on the iPod, these images are incorrectly colour-mapped
03:24:23[RFC2812]read above
03:24:43JdGordoncool, sounds like a bug in screendump
03:24:50[RFC2812]but what i'm getting at
03:25:03[RFC2812]why are there 2 different filesizes for bitmaps in the first place
03:25:10[RFC2812]bitmaps are uncompressed
03:32:53 Quit scorche (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
03:35:10[RFC2812]wait
03:35:21[RFC2812]let me do some analysis on these images
03:35:26[RFC2812]Rockbox does 24 bit right?
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03:35:29[RFC2812]depth
03:35:30[RFC2812]eyah
03:36:02[RFC2812]yeah the screendump iis probably saving as 16 bit
03:36:06[RFC2812]let me confirm
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03:36:48[RFC2812]yep
03:36:51[RFC2812]gonna file a bug
03:38:13[RFC2812]oh yes
03:38:27[RFC2812]rockbox is hellbent on using real names
03:38:34[RFC2812]i'll pass
03:44:14*man_in_shack passes [RFC2812]
03:44:15[RFC2812]hi?
03:44:30*man_in_shack hides
03:44:34[RFC2812]you don't like RFCs?
03:44:39man_in_shack(:
03:46:27man_in_shacki prefer RFC1149
03:46:59[RFC2812]oh that
03:47:00[RFC2812]nice
03:47:11[RFC2812]well played
03:51:33[RFC2812]but yeah
03:52:07[RFC2812]this is to anyone in here: Rockbox (at least for iPod Classic) image viewer can't handle 16 bit bitmaps
03:52:17[RFC2812]if anyone cares to report it who already is registered with the tracker
03:52:29[RFC2812]also i could complain about theimage viewer some more...
03:52:38man_in_shack16bit bmps are fun
03:52:44[RFC2812]it's pretty good but a lot of jpeg shit
03:52:58[RFC2812]can't view interlaced jpegs i believe
03:53:19[RFC2812]anyway i made a 24b bitmap in gimp for my backsplash :3
03:53:37man_in_shackcool
03:53:44man_in_shackpngs are more awesome though :P
03:53:58[RFC2812]man_in_shack okay
03:54:01[RFC2812]we know
03:54:07[RFC2812]but that's not the scope of my rant
03:54:15man_in_shackrants are fun
03:54:21*[RFC2812] slaps man_in_shack around a bit with a large trout.
03:54:31*man_in_shack smokes the trout and eats it
03:54:38[RFC2812]that trout is rotten
03:54:41[RFC2812]enjoy your death
03:54:48[RFC2812]i'll be laughing at your funeral
03:54:50[RFC2812]anyway i will depart
03:54:51 Part [RFC2812] ("<3")
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11:42:26bluebrotherB4gder, Zagor: can you please move Rockbox Utility 1.4.0 to the download server? http://www.alice-dsl.net/dominik.riebeling/rockbox/rbutil-releases/1.4.0/
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13:04:50JdGordonPurlingNayuki: hey, did you get time to update the patch?
13:06:00PurlingNayukiSorry I tried but the code wasn't working well.
13:06:27PurlingNayukiI need helps, should I just upload my current codes?
13:08:24JdGordonyeah
13:08:45PurlingNayukiWait a second
13:08:45JdGordonsounds like im not allowed to play tonight though, i'll try to look tomorow
13:12:23PurlingNayukiOK thanks in advance
13:13:39PurlingNayukiI just pushed my codes. I guess I'm not that familiar with Rockbox as I thought.
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13:20:06JdGordonPurlingNayuki: that latest one builds at all?
13:20:52PurlingNayukiBuilds but won't working as was expected.
13:21:57JdGordonsound_get_fn(SOUND_VOLUME_LIMIT) != NULL right?
13:22:11JdGordon(also you've got tabs in a few of the files again)
13:22:19JdGordongerrit shows the tabs as red >>'s
13:23:03JdGordonI don't tihnk you need the setvol you've added in the first change in option_select.c
13:23:04PurlingNayukiIt shouldn't be me. I checked them before commiting:-(
13:23:50PurlingNayukiYes it's a NULL. Is it the problem?
13:24:00JdGordonvery probably
13:24:09 Quit ikeboy (Quit: ikeboy)
13:24:21JdGordonwell, maybe
13:24:29JdGordonI dunno what problems you're seeing :)
13:25:20PurlingNayukiBut volume limit function in firmware/ is adunda
13:25:21JdGordonit might be better to remove that part and add a menu callback in sound_menu.c for the volume_limit menu item
13:25:28PurlingNayuki*redundant
13:25:29JdGordonadunda?
13:25:30JdGordon:)
13:25:56PurlingNayukisorry i was misunderstanding.
13:25:56*JdGordon looks for an example
13:26:12PurlingNayukiI can handle that
13:26:26PurlingNayukieven without an example
13:26:33JdGordonhave a look at timestretch_callback()
13:26:34PurlingNayukidon't worry.
13:26:39JdGordonvery easy to add
13:26:56PurlingNayukiWell OK I'll try.
13:27:49JdGordonalso the chinese.lang diff is wrong
13:27:56JdGordonthe </phrase> is in the wrong place
13:28:22PurlingNayukiYes i was in a hurry yesterday.
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13:29:12PurlingNayukiFortunately we have enough time to review and fix them before merging, thanks to gerrit
13:33:17*PurlingNayuki is fixing codes.
13:33:59*JdGordon heads off to bed
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13:37:35PurlingNayuki:P Good night
13:45:30PurlingNayukiJdGordon: What should I do in volume_limit_callback()?
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13:55:44PurlingNayukiJdGordon: Leave it doing nothing and it just works.
13:55:50PurlingNayuki:-P
13:55:57PurlingNayukiGreat.
13:56:12PurlingNayukiHeads to small bugs and format fix.
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17:53:18chrisjjDoes http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/WebSearch word for anyone here?
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17:56:15[Saint]It hasn't worked properly for years.
17:56:26[Saint]use the search bar.
18:00
18:01:16 Quit ikeboy (Write error: Broken pipe)
18:05:59chrisjj"It hasn't worked properly for years." I guess it will take only a few more years before someone files a bug report :) Thanks.
18:08:25[Saint]why do you assume it isn't known?
18:09:12[Saint]Its been broken for over a decade.
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18:10:27[Saint]It worked for a brief period after I noticed it was messed up and reverted a formatting error, then it fell over again.
18:10:37pixelmaguess you are exaggerating a bit
18:11:01[Saint]Scarily, not by much.
18:11:49 Quit Cultist (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
18:12:40[Saint]actually...i was off a few years.
18:12:58[Saint]its been broken since 2001ish.
18:14:50scorche|shum, no - that cant be right
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18:15:56[Saint]well...its before my time, of course, but the same formatting error existed for about 10 years if he history is correct.
18:15:56scorche|shthere was no wiki there in 2001
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18:16:34[Saint]there's history from 1999 there...
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18:16:51scorche|shhuh?
18:16:54[Saint]guess its good and broke.
18:17:18scorche|shrockbox came about Dec 2001
18:17:22[Saint]the page edits list history from 1991
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18:17:34scorche|shback then it wasnt even known as rockbox
18:17:42[Saint]so, yep, guess its real fucked.
18:18:02[Saint]it worked briefly a while back.
18:18:19scorche|shrockbox.org didnt come about until 2004
18:18:47scorche|shit worked for a number of years after that - never was anywhere near as good as Google, but if you knew what you were looking for, it would find it quickly
18:19:00[Saint]I wonder what triggered this madness.
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18:19:08scorche|shi would guess it hasnt worked for4-7 years
18:19:18scorche|shmaybe
18:19:42[Saint]it was working a bit after i fixed it up visually.
18:19:55[Saint]that was a while ago now.
18:20:21[Saint]the page formatting was whack.
18:24:13pixelmamaybe not since moving to foswiki (was twiki first IIRC)
18:24:58scorche|shyeah - that was what i was thinking after "maybe"
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19:52:21chrisjj"why do you assume it isn't known?" I didn't. But I do assume there's no bug report... because I can't find one.
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19:58:49scorche|shyeah - honestly, i dont think it is all that big of a deal to ask us about it
19:59:01scorche|shignore [Saint] on that one =)
20:00
20:02:45[Saint]What?
20:03:01[Saint]I wasn't implying anyone cared...don't get me wrong. :)
20:06:54chrisjjSaint, do you really think no-one cares?
20:07:11[Saint]Its fairly evident.
20:07:54[Saint]You, and me, are the only two to mention it in many many years - I'd say that counts as no one in the greater scheme of things.
20:08:32[Saint]It would be an issue if there wasn't a fully functional search implementation inches away, but, there is.
20:08:37chrisjjIt is fairly evidence you don't care. I see nothing to suggest others don't. When a new user arrives at the wiki and uses the search, I think he does care about the result. Else he wouldn't bother.
20:09:41[Saint]Maybe it is extrapolating to far, but the lack of complaints and the lack of motivation to fix it suggests others, like me, don;t really care about it too much.
20:09:55[Saint]As I said, there's a fully functional search implentation inches away.
20:10:19[Saint]It would be an issue if there wasn;t, but, there is.
20:11:34chrisjjYes, I'm sure others like you don't care about it. But that doesn't mean no-one does. You cared enough in 2010 to attempt to fix it - perhaps there's someone like that here now.
20:12:10scorche|shwe dont really care, but i am just saying that you jumped the gun a bit on the "assume it isnt known"
20:12:22scorche|sh(to [Saint] )
20:12:28[Saint]Well, if that someone isn't you, or me, I don't think the discussion matters very much.
20:12:45[Saint]scorche|sh: well...it definitely _should_ be known.
20:12:58scorche|shsure, but chrisjj shouldnt be expected to know that it is known
20:13:02[Saint]I know I reported it to yourself and other bigwigs an age ago. :)
20:13:26scorche|shi wouldnt say i am a bigwig, but...
20:13:35chrisjj"there's a fully functional search implentation inches away." I assume you're kidding. Else it would be OK for every wiki search on the web to be broken too.
20:13:50scorche|shwell, there is
20:14:00[Saint]its like literally right there.
20:14:04scorche|shit isnt worth fixing really, as google search works just fine
20:14:04[Saint]in ever wiki page.
20:14:07[Saint]*every
20:14:10scorche|shwe even embedded it on the sidebar
20:14:15[Saint]indeed.
20:14:25[Saint]We should probably just remove the page in question.
20:15:22chrisjjSaint, you miss the point. The wiki search gives a false result to the user and does not give your advice to stop using the feature and use Google instead.
20:15:34chrisjjYes, removing would be better than leaving it present broken.
20:16:00[Saint]I assure you I'm not missing the point. I'm just not terribly bothered by it.
20:16:16[Saint]As long as there's a search that works, I'm cool.
20:16:41scorche|shchrisjj: it isnt that big of a problem, really - a number of folk dont even get that far and just use the search field on every single page as that is easier
20:16:51scorche|shor they come in here and we direct them to that just as we are doing now
20:16:59[Saint]^this
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20:28:35chrisjjscorche|sh, please consider those people who don't come in here.
20:28:50scorche|shchrisjj: as i said before, we did
20:29:07scorche|shif you cnat see the search field that is on every single page, that is your own fault
20:32:53chrisjjscorche|sh, "as i said before, we did". I've seen no such consideration. Where did I miss it?
20:33:16scorche|shtalking about the search field
20:33:19scorche|shon every page
20:33:37chrisjj"if you cnat see the search field that is on every single page, that is your own fault" I can see it. It lacks many of the features of the search page.
20:33:49gevaertsIt does?
20:33:59gevaertsWhat can the search page do that it can't?
20:34:20gevaerts(note: the search page doesn't work...)
20:35:18chrisjjscorche|sh, to save you the bother of helping those users who come here :) I added a warning note on the broken WebSearch page.
20:39:45[Saint]It doesn't save the bother of users coming in here about that specifically, because it doesn't happen.
20:39:47[Saint]Unless you mean you, and I doubt you'll be making the mistake in future.
20:39:59[Saint]But, thanks anyway. Thought that counts, and all that.
20:43:19scorche|shchrisjj: that isnt a bother, yeah
20:49:28chrisjj[Saint]: You're welcome.
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20:52:12barankoHi. Guys, someone know is roadmap in flyspray shows any real situation with new release coming?
20:53:35gevaertsbaranko: I don't think we've used that flyspray roadmap feature for years
20:53:46[Saint]flyspray is less and less relevant by the day.
20:53:57barankoOhh
20:54:11[Saint]We try to use gerrit for all patch submissions now.
20:54:23gevaerts[Saint]: there *are* bug reports :)
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20:54:45[Saint]Errr, ah, yes. Good point.
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20:56:36barankoWell, i read in maillist archive that there is some refactoring ot something coming for getting core of system as i understand. Does this mean that until that wi get no new stable release like 3.13?
20:58:15[Saint]A release is literally just around the corner.
20:58:21[Saint]Its actually a bit late.
20:58:49gevaertsWell...
20:59:11gevaertsGiven that ipod video didn't *boot* two days ago and nobody had noticed for ten days, I'm not *too* confident
20:59:20[Saint]We should really be in freeze now, at least.
20:59:57barankoGevaerts as i understand there is no big test community?
21:00
21:00:15gevaertsNot really. People seem to like running stable releases :)
21:00:48barankoYes, i am one of such people.)
21:01:07[Saint]Which is somewhat ironic. As in general git head is goint to include more bugfixes.
21:01:17[Saint](but, potentially other newer, exciting bugs. :P)
21:01:44chrisjjI was wondering the same. Is there no coordinated QA for a new release? To ensure that ports declared stable are still stable?
21:02:06[Saint]There is. I just don;t think you've been around long enough.
21:02:14bertrikI think we do have a release manager
21:02:22[Saint]Typically we freeze for two weeks and focus exclusively on bugfixes.
21:02:27chrisjj"There is". Great. Where's the documentation?
21:02:33barankoOh, on one of our forums, i found that peoples feel difference with different builds of rockbox. Is it realy can be? Or this is just imagination?
21:03:04bertrikWhat documentation?
21:03:09[Saint]baranko: Oh, of course. Generally speaking, Rockbox is in a semi-constant state of improvement.
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21:03:57barankoReally? But i suppose rockbox use hardware decoder in players and sound must be the same.
21:04:28gevaertsNo. Hardware decoding has been gone for more than a decade
21:04:36chrisjj"I think we do have a release manager". Good news. But I've seen no mention of such a person in the three years I've been here. What's his name?
21:04:51[Saint]Three years?
21:04:53[Saint]WHat the...
21:05:05[Saint]As far as I knew, you popped up about 6 months ago.
21:05:23[Saint]Shows the attention I pay, heh.
21:05:49chrisjj"As far as I knew" Aha.
21:05:54chrisjj:)
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21:06:07[Saint]AlexP is the release manager for this round (and the last few) I believe.
21:06:22[Saint]But he's been rather scarce lately.
21:06:30AlexPYes, I've done them for a good while now
21:06:56[Saint]Ah. Hello good Sir.
21:06:57AlexPAnd I've never noticed chrisjj before a few months
21:06:58chrisjjThanks. Where's the QA coordinated?
21:07:11AlexPIf he hasn't noticed releases happening then he hasn't been playing much attention
21:07:11AlexPHere
21:07:14AlexPwait,
21:07:17AlexPI misread
21:07:21AlexPQA?
21:07:22AlexPHa
21:07:35AlexPWe have a freeze
21:07:38AlexPThen branch
21:07:42AlexPWith sometimes an RC
21:07:46AlexPWhich nobody uses
21:07:49AlexPThen we release
21:07:54[Saint]its "we freeze for ~2 weeks, and focus on fixing outstanding issues", then maybe an RC, then release.
21:08:02AlexPYou will have noticed all this on the mailing list of course
21:08:02[Saint]..then maybe a point release if necessary.
21:08:07AlexPyep
21:08:22bertrikand get translations more up-to-date usually before a release
21:08:22AlexPAnd hello to you too [Saint] :)
21:08:24AlexPyes
21:08:59chrisjjHi Alex. Is there a coordinated effort to verify ports declared stable are still stable?
21:09:25chrisjjIn particular, is there a checklist of verified ports?
21:09:32AlexPYou need to use the actual nick for highlighting to work
21:10:18AlexPThe ones declared stable
21:10:27AlexPAnd no, we do an RC and rely on people to tell us
21:10:29AlexPWe have too many targets
21:10:31AlexPBut seeing as nobody uses the RC
21:10:31barankoI don't think lots of usual users read any of it. May be there is some thense to announce this to community and ask for more test. Really automated install with installer was great and easy. It was my first touch of this great project.
21:10:35AlexPWe do announce it
21:10:36[Saint]We ask for RC tests, and no one does.
21:10:37AlexPThere is a message in the forums and on the dev and user mailing lists
21:10:51[Saint]Its literally a miracle if there's RC testing in any decent numbers.
21:11:28baranko"Forums' - it's project forum or some fan forums?
21:11:31[Saint]I'm really not sure what else we could do to get the users more involved.
21:11:37AlexPbaranko: forums.rockbox.org
21:11:49AlexPor forum
21:11:50[Saint](project forum)
21:11:52AlexPI forget
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21:12:45AlexPWe are well overdue for a release but a) we seem to get less stable all the time and b) I don't use Rockbox that much anymore so unless I really get kicked I haven't got round to it
21:14:30[Saint]We definitely would want to push RC candidates for this round.
21:14:40[Saint]But, only like 3 people will use them.
21:14:55AlexPWe'll do them anyway
21:14:57chrisjjAlexP: "There is a message in the forums" Thanks. Note: I see no such message for the RC of the current release - 3.13.
21:14:58AlexPYou never know :)
21:15:10[Saint]And only 1 will give any feedback, just to say "super cool, awesome guys - thanks!" :P
21:16:00AlexPI have a feeling that they didn't get made available for 3.13 as there wasn't a Swede around
21:16:11AlexPAnd by the time there was we were moving on
21:16:17AlexPBut I may well be misremembering
21:16:29AlexPI probably just didn't overlap with one
21:16:42chrisjj"Moving on". Well, it does depend on the target cirterion.
21:17:36AlexP"it does"
21:17:46chrisjjYour target criterion for release could be: a) when all stables are verified, or; b) when X weeks have passed regardless.
21:18:00AlexPNote: I don't know what you mean with random quotes. Be specific with your meaning
21:18:11chrisjjIf it is b), then no surprise "we seem to get less stable all the time" :)
21:18:22AlexPIt isn't
21:18:41AlexPBut if nobody replies we have no choice
21:19:38barankoAs for feedback, first of all, if everything works almost nobody come and say: everysing cool. Just like on isp forums. As for me, i can get another one player for test builds, but i prefer some instruction, like "guys need to check this and this and this. Any other on your needs.". So any algorythms of testing?
21:19:49chrisjjAlexP: "It isn't" Good to hear. But then what is it? I see no indication on the RC message e.g. http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php/topic,35755.0.html
21:20:19AlexPWhat?
21:20:40chrisjjWhat is the target criterion for release? If not a) or b) above.
21:20:59AlexPYou misinterpret my "It isn't"
21:21:06AlexPIgnore that
21:21:09chrisjjThen please clarify.
21:21:19chrisjjOK, ignoring :)
21:21:21AlexPI can only type so fast....
21:21:26chrisjjSorry :)
21:22:18AlexPThere is a time limit, which is generally a week or so, as outlined in the release schedules and on the public google calendar. If something gets reported in that time that takes longer to fix then it'll be delayed
21:22:29AlexPNobody really likes doing releases tbh
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21:25:15chrisjj"Nobody really likes doing releases tbh" That's not my experience, but perhaps it is true that no current RB really likes doing releases :)
21:25:31AlexPNobody involved really likes doing them
21:25:36AlexPI'm sure users like them
21:25:52AlexPIt takes ages for a start and we all have real lives
21:26:34chrisjjYou know, porting takes ages, and real lives don't stop that :)
21:26:35n1schrisjj: just a "it starts and plays music" test for targets you have would be great and even better would be testing things that rely on specific hardware like fm radio and recording. The more things tested, the better but we can't realistically expect to try everything on every device every release
21:26:55AlexPchrisjj: That's because people find it interesting
21:27:01AlexPReleases aren't
21:27:07AlexPNor is bug fixing by and large
21:27:10chrisjjAlexP: where do those release schedules live?
21:27:19AlexPOn the dev mailing list
21:27:33n1sbug fixing is more fun than releasing :)
21:27:36AlexPand there is a google calendar, link should be in those emails on the mailing list too
21:27:45AlexPn1s: And that says it all I think :)
21:27:56AlexPMore testing for releases would be great of course
21:28:01AlexPAnd there was discussion of this
21:28:11AlexPA webpage with things for people to click through etc.
21:28:22AlexPBut nobody cared enough to actually set it up
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21:29:17chrisjjSoory, I should have said: where do those release schedules live *for prospective testers* - not just devs.
21:29:46AlexPI can't remember if they do specifically
21:30:02chrisjjOK. I can see why we're short of testers.
21:30:17AlexPWe ask for testers with the RCs
21:30:25gevaertsWhy would the schedule be different for testers?
21:30:31n1sAlexP: a wikipage with a table of every port included in the release and a field to fill in results in freeform would be pretty easy
21:30:51AlexPn1s: Indeed so, but still nobody (me included) did it
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21:31:19barankoMaybe some simplyfying neede of that process?
21:31:32AlexPWhich process?
21:31:52chrisjjAlexP: Yes, I see that e.g. http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php/topic,35755.0.html but there's no mention of a schedule, so a tester can't see whether a week later his testing is any use.
21:31:58AlexPI'm not blaiming users here particularly by the way, devs don't test either
21:32:01barankoTest for testers of test builds
21:32:15AlexPbaranko: Having a process would help :)
21:32:25AlexPchrisjj: Surely he can
21:32:34AlexPIf there hasn't been a release it isn't too late
21:32:51AlexPIf there has been, see if it is still in the release, if so file a bug report
21:33:16chrisjjIf that's the procedure then great... but I'd not have known it. Often elsewhere it is not.
21:34:18chrisjjBut even so, I think there are people who are not going to sit down for a weekends testing only to find it misses the boat.
21:34:32AlexPIt doesn't miss the boat entirely
21:34:49AlexPbug reports are still useful and if it is serious there can be a point release
21:34:59chrisjjThat's why I asked about a schedule. Saying "You have two weeks to test" is much better than leaving it undefined.
21:35:07AlexPsure
21:35:18chrisjjIt doesn't miss the next boat, agreed :)
21:35:35AlexPwhich can be immediate if needs be
21:35:52AlexPLots of the release process could be much better
21:35:56AlexPBut life is too short
21:36:57chrisjjSome would say life is too short to invest time in a project where "we seem to get less stable all the time"...
21:37:12AlexPsure, they can say what they'd like
21:37:22AlexPBut I have a job and a social life, sorry
21:37:38chrisjjAnd a good guard against such bit rot is coordinated release QA.
21:38:28gevaertsOne *big* issue we have is people getting demotivated by people standing at the sidelines criticising
21:40:06chrisjjAlexP: I'd assume the more valuable the time one gives to a project like this, the more important is making it worthwhile.
21:40:18AlexPeh?
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21:40:53chrisjjYou've given up time to be the release manager, right?
21:41:01AlexPsure
21:41:12AlexPPartly because nobody else wanted to :)
21:42:30chrisjjWell, I can see one thing that might discourage them ^^^
21:43:25AlexPYou saying that the time spent wasn't worthwhile?
21:44:47chrisjjNot at all. I'm saying that time spent guarding against bit rot might make the time already spent more worthwhile.
21:45:08AlexPsure
21:45:26chrisjj(My ^^^ refers to people who paint improvement suggestions as criticism from sidelines.)
21:45:41chrisjjWhere's the RB google calendar?
21:45:50AlexPimprovement suggestions are useless
21:45:57AlexPactually doing something is useful
21:45:57chrisjjI find only mailing list references to it 4 years ago.
21:46:16chrisjj"improvement suggestions are useless". Really?
21:46:20AlexPpretty much
21:46:30AlexPwe all do this as volunteers, in out spare time
21:46:51gevaertschrisjj: in case it wasn't clear, I was referring to people like you who step right out of Dilbert to come and annoy us
21:47:02chrisjj"pretty much" Not my experience at all.
21:47:02AlexPI don't do anything to be told what to do by people who don't do anything themselves
21:47:14AlexPIt doesn't make it fun
21:47:19AlexPAnd people only do this for fun
21:47:54chrisjj"who don't do anything themselves" Do you count "suggesting improvement" as doing anything?
21:47:59AlexPno
21:48:14AlexPI know, we all know, that there is much more to be done
21:48:24AlexPBut time and motivation preclude it
21:48:29AlexPThe only answer is more time
21:48:36AlexPAnd that needs people to provide it
21:48:39barankoOk, don,t use electricity if you cannot build generator at least.
21:48:57AlexPhow is that relevent?
21:49:00chrisjjIf you don't consider improvement suggesters as worthwhile, I wonder what you think testers are :)
21:49:13AlexPnot the same thing
21:49:21barankoSometimes someone can be cool in idea but bad in realise it no?
21:49:27AlexPtesters are primarily useful for finding things that don't work
21:49:36AlexPnot suggesting what they see as improvements
21:49:47AlexPwhich can often by contentious for a start
21:49:54chrisjjFixing bugs is improvement in my book.
21:50:16AlexPwell if that is what you meant, then fine
21:50:17gevaertschrisjj: are you now saying we need people who tell us that we should fix bugs?
21:52:31AlexPchrisjj: I'm going now, but just to finish - what is primarily needed is people to do things, not tell other people what needs to be done
21:52:42chrisjjIt is what I meant. And as you probably know, reporting bugs around here is also contentious. Esp. where "bug" is defined by reference to what the dev intended, rather than what the user expects.
21:52:58chrisjjNice to meet you and chat Alex. Bye for now.
21:53:17chrisjjCan anyone tell me where the Rockbox Google calendar is? Thanks.
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22:16:16GodEaterchrisjj: rockbox.calendar@gmail.com
22:17:11GodEatera bit of googling on the ML archives turned that up.
22:17:19GodEaterI expect you prefer other people to do that for you too.
22:18:59Karrde-heh
22:19:23AlexPIt seems I haven't mentioned it in a while
22:19:31AlexPbut e.g. http://www.rockbox.org/mail/archive/rockbox-dev-archive-2011-03/0120.shtml
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22:22:40[Saint]I think what is trying to be said here is that we clearly don't need people to tell us that the project has problems. We know this. What we do need is people prepared to take the initiative and fix these issues that annoy them.
22:23:09chrisjjAlexP: Thanks. That shows no events: http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/8862/9peh.png . Is this as intended?
22:23:24AlexPchrisjj: yes, there isn't anything in it for 3.14 yet
22:23:32AlexPbut if you go back you should see the others
22:23:50chrisjjThere is nothing in it for 3.13 and earlier....
22:24:16AlexPyes there is
22:24:18AlexPFeb 2013
22:25:07chrisjjAh, Google was filtering. Found Feb 2013 now - thanks.
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23:03:16 Nick SuperBrainAK is now known as DormantBrain (~andy@2001:470:8:a61::5f92:59a1)
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23:14:39 Quit amayer (Quit: Leaving)
23:33:01 Quit n1s (Quit: Ex-Chat)
23:39:32 Join nosa-j [0] (~m00k@66.233.224.206)
23:41:22 Join cmhobbs [0] (~cmhobbs@fsf/member/cmhobbs)

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