| 00:00:15 | kugel | hm |
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| 00:10:56 | JdGordon | kugel: i really dont like the idea of complelty dissalowing text |
| 00:11:28 | kugel | can you propose an alternative? |
| 00:12:23 | kugel | disabling themes altogether really sucks, especially when not even this works (themes somehow get re-enabled, I wonder about side effects) |
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| 00:15:21 | JdGordon | themes are getting reenabled because of the interaction between the viewport_theme_enable() and skins |
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| 00:18:44 | kugel | disabling still sucks |
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| 00:40:46 | [Saint] | I hate to be "that guy"…but "I haven't seen an attempt at a better solution in years so I'm willing to accept whatever" doesn't seem like the right attitude. |
| 00:41:09 | [Saint] | Just sayin'. |
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| 00:52:47 | [Saint] | Would it be difficult to check if we couldn't just drop all preloaded .sbs fonts into RAM? |
| 00:53:20 | gevaerts | Check, sure. But what then? |
| 00:53:32 | [Saint] | Fall back to sysfont on LOWMEM and cases where font(s) dont fit in RAM. |
| 00:54:02 | [Saint] | Stuff the required fonts in RAM if we can and we're golden, no? |
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| 00:55:30 | * | gevaerts predicts theme people complaining loudly about the theme site offering themes for targets they didn't personally test them on so they look ugly for some people |
| 00:57:41 | [Saint] | It seems a shame to punish all cases simply because a subset of targets doesn't have the RAM available. |
| 00:58:18 | [Saint] | On some targets there's enough to stuff 10+ unifonts |
| 00:59:10 | [Saint] | But sadly, I can imagine the scenario you propose too. |
| 01:00 |
| 01:01:32 | JdGordon | at the very least we need to figure out what text people would actually want to display |
| 01:01:47 | JdGordon | a clock seems reasonable |
| 01:02:02 | JdGordon | and some static lines |
| 01:02:18 | gevaerts | I think this is a matter of how to describe things. Instead of "We haven't had a solution for years, so this will do". let's go for "This seems like a good first step" :) |
| 01:04:07 | gevaerts | I don't think kuge; |
| 01:05:09 | gevaerts | I think kuge's proposal is a step forward, although it can be argued if it's a very big step, and I don't think it would actually hinder future improvement |
| 01:05:37 | gevaerts | Also, it might wake people up. A years-old status quo tends not to be fresh in people's minds |
| 01:06:31 | JdGordon | well, his diff also is missing all the needed bits to know if it is in a sbs or not |
| 01:07:01 | PurlingNayuki | Exam today :( |
| 01:07:07 | JdGordon | good luck! |
| 01:07:46 | gevaerts | JdGordon: it's on a pastenbin, not on gerrit. It's not supposed to be finished :) |
| 01:08:21 | JdGordon | :) |
| 01:09:01 | JdGordon | we allow the radio to play in usb dont we? |
| 01:09:34 | gevaerts | I'm not sure. We don't stop it, but I'm not sure if that's by design |
| 01:12:42 | JdGordon | no reason to not, but that means people will want to show the fms while in usb |
| 01:12:51 | JdGordon | which is reasonable but potentially difficult |
| 01:19:18 | [Saint] | Keeping FM alive in USB seems odd. |
| 01:19:31 | JdGordon | why? |
| 01:20:43 | [Saint] | There's no reason to not do so, I just can't think of any other device that offers anything more than a mountpoint when connected via USB. |
| 01:21:09 | gevaerts | Isn't that enough of a reason? :) |
| 01:21:57 | [Saint] | It seems like killing FM playback might make things simpler. |
| 01:22:19 | [Saint] | I wonder how many people even use it. |
| 01:24:07 | gevaerts | Killing it is simpler than handling it properly with controls and things, of course, but that's not what we're doing |
| 01:24:12 | gevaerts | We just don't kill it |
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| 08:16:53 | * | [Saint] wonders how there is someone viewing a topic that shouldn't ever have been public |
| 08:17:29 | [Saint] | (hit the authorization for first posts and bounced straight into the crap can) |
| 08:20:42 | JdGordon | ? |
| 08:22:13 | [Saint] | I just noticed in the "who's viewing what" thingo that someone was on a topic that should have been in the shit can and thus invisible. |
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| 08:37:28 | ParkerR | [Saint], fancy seeing you here ;) |
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| 08:41:05 | GodEater | o/ |
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| 08:42:03 | wodz | I am wondering if recent memory corruptions fixed stabilize usb on ams. Has anyone conducted some experiments? |
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| 09:18:30 | kugel | JdGordon, gevaerts: we don't stop the fm radio but we don't show the radio screen either |
| 09:18:43 | kugel | only the SBS can be drawn, the UI viewport is filled with the USB logo |
| 09:19:37 | lebellium | FM radio on USB screen makes no sense http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1600x1200q90/801/m1gg.jpg |
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| 09:20:18 | kugel | lebellium: what do you mean? |
| 09:20:36 | ParkerR | I want a Rocjbox player with FM radio |
| 09:20:40 | ParkerR | *Rockbox |
| 09:20:56 | ParkerR | My only experience has been an old iPod Mini and a nano 2g |
| 09:22:24 | lebellium | kugel: oh my bad, I did not notice the radio still works during the USB connection -_- |
| 09:23:45 | lebellium | but there are no playback control. Impossible to change the volume or the frequency during USB connection |
| 09:24:24 | lebellium | so it's a bit strange to get it work during USB connection |
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| 10:00 |
| 10:03:48 | kugel | what would be a good placeholder glyph? |
| 10:04:48 | wodz | kugel: Any other remarks then lack of core_check_valid() in buflib crc patch? |
| 10:06:20 | kugel | wodz: I think a core_* wrapper should be created and used in thread-sdl.c |
| 10:06:53 | wodz | Yes, I understand. I am asking if the patch is OK otherwise |
| 10:08:55 | kugel | looks good |
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| 10:20:52 | JdGordon | there is no particular reason why we couldnt allow full radio control in usb tohuhg |
| 10:21:09 | gevaerts | *nearly full control |
| 10:21:27 | gevaerts | No saving or loading presets, or finding station art! |
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| 10:28:50 | PurlingNayuki | But basic control such as channel switching, pause, play and stop(start) is possibly. |
| 10:30:45 | kugel | JdGordon: there is a reason: usb hid |
| 10:31:10 | kugel | but I think hid can be disabled in which case radio control could be granted |
| 10:32:24 | kugel | but that's a step too far, we're still at the usb_screen, which we need to fix |
| 10:32:43 | kugel | theme handling at usb screen |
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| 10:57:45 | AnLe | hi |
| 10:58:10 | AnLe | can someone explain me some thing about development builds: |
| 10:58:22 | wodz | sure, ask |
| 10:58:27 | AnLe | i wan't backup my 3/13 that was installed by installer |
| 10:58:52 | AnLe | 2. i nnedto update to dev build as some devs ask in forum |
| 10:58:58 | AnLe | as i read here |
| 10:59:02 | AnLe | http://download.rockbox.org/manual/rockbox-sansae200/rockbox-buildch2.html#x4-200002.4 |
| 10:59:09 | AnLe | there is some sansa bootloader |
| 10:59:28 | AnLe | i'am not quite sure, if i just copy бкщслищч |
| 10:59:34 | AnLe | *.rockbox |
| 10:59:38 | wodz | bootloaders != rockbox dev build |
| 10:59:39 | AnLe | then del it |
| 10:59:56 | AnLe | that unzip new dev build |
| 11:00 |
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| 11:00:08 | AnLe | into newly created rockbox |
| 11:00:17 | wodz | If you are not explicitly ask to update bootloader don't do that |
| 11:00:17 | AnLe | so will it work? |
| 11:00:27 | AnLe | i don't understand where is it |
| 11:00:41 | AnLe | that's why i ned to know what i can touch and what i don't |
| 11:00:51 | AnLe | *need |
| 11:01:30 | AnLe | Sorry for the mistakes, a little worried. |
| 11:01:36 | wodz | to update the build you should 1) backup your current .rockbox folder (the one with 3.13 a + your config) 2) unzip on top of this new version from development build .zip |
| 11:01:59 | wodz | on unplug you should be asked if you want to reboot |
| 11:02:14 | AnLe | but, it's not looks like clear installation? |
| 11:02:30 | AnLe | are you shure that this is normal for testing dev build? |
| 11:03:17 | AnLe | http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=43526.new;topicseen#new <- this theme cause me asking :) |
| 11:04:02 | wodz | yes I am sure. BTW. that was me who ask to test development build :-) |
| 11:04:45 | AnLe | yep, i see. also it's me who asked here when there is new 3.14 stable build ) |
| 11:04:57 | AnLe | as i understand project stiill need testers |
| 11:05:06 | wodz | desperately I would say |
| 11:05:55 | AnLe | well, i get new one sansa clip+, so now i can make some tests if it's needed on oldone. |
| 11:06:03 | AnLe | is there any roadmap for testers? |
| 11:06:22 | AnLe | forexample something cool was fixed and this thing must be checked |
| 11:08:50 | wodz | usb could be possibly fixed after squashing a few memory corruptions in theme engine |
| 11:13:24 | AnLe | that would be nice |
| 11:14:13 | AnLe | well |
| 11:14:30 | AnLe | how can i easily rollback to stable release? |
| 11:14:53 | AnLe | just cope backup of my .rockbox? |
| 11:15:00 | AnLe | *copy |
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| 11:29:34 | wodz | AnLe: yes |
| 11:30:17 | AnLe | oh, so simple. |
| 11:30:30 | AnLe | thanks :) |
| 11:31:27 | AnLe | is there any sense test usb connections via some hubs or just directly to pc with win|lin would be enough? |
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| 11:33:23 | wodz | Previously it was known that some themes breaks usb connection reliably so this themes NOT breaking usb is what we want to get tested |
| 11:34:43 | AnLe | well |
| 11:35:17 | AnLe | is it some known themes that have 100% hit this bug? |
| 11:35:27 | AnLe | or just test few themes that i like? |
| 11:35:59 | wodz | the letter if you experienced usb - theme interference previously |
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| 11:54:05 | AnLe | wodz: letter? |
| 11:54:11 | AnLe | literal maybe? |
| 11:54:12 | AnLe | http://themes.rockbox.org/index.php?target=sansaclipplus |
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| 12:00:52 | kugel | gevaerts, JdGordon: alright, I got motivated to provide a better solution. I think have something workable |
| 12:01:05 | gevaerts | Great :) |
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| 12:23:30 | JdGordon | kugel: oh? |
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| 12:36:32 | kugel | gevaerts, JdGordon: As briefly mentioned yesterday I think the best would be to hope the cache has everything needed (and provide a fallback for the very unlikely case where the assumption doesnt hold). I'm implementing just that |
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| 12:39:28 | PurlingNayuki | Any way to revert fnt files to bdf? |
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| 12:54:38 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 12:55:40 | kugel | copper: ping |
| 13:00 |
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| 13:09:10 | copper | kugel: hai |
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| 13:24:28 | kugel | copper: does if (cache_only) |
| 13:24:28 | kugel | return NULL; |
| 13:24:39 | kugel | does FS #12892 still happen? |
| 13:24:40 | fs-bluebot | http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/12892 backdrop doesn't load when selecting a new theme that was just copied via USB (bugs, unconfirmed) |
| 13:34:12 | | Quit nosa-j (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 13:39:26 | kugel | gevaerts, JdGordon: g#723 g#724 |
| 13:39:28 | fs-bluebot | Gerrit review #723 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/723 : by Thomas Martitz (changes/23/723/1) |
| 13:39:29 | fs-bluebot | Gerrit review #724 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/724 : usb: Do not disable themes in the USB screen. by Thomas Martitz (changes/24/724/1) |
| 13:40:36 | fs-bluebot | Build Server message: New build round started. Revision 80aac92, 249 builds, 32 clients. |
| 13:41:09 | copper | kugel: checking |
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| 13:43:31 | fs-bluebot | Build Server message: Build round completed after 175 seconds. |
| 13:43:51 | copper | kugel: can't reproduce it on either the Fuze+ or the iPod Classic |
| 13:44:19 | copper | hmm |
| 13:44:21 | copper | actually |
| 13:44:49 | copper | I plugged in my iPod, copied the Xplorr theme, selected it in the theme list, loaded fine |
| 13:45:15 | copper | then I tried to load my Clippy theme, but the Xplorr backdrop is still there |
| 13:45:48 | copper | then I tried loading my Clippy theme a second time, and then the correct backdrop loaded |
| 13:45:49 | gevaerts | kugel: I'll have a proper look tonight, but at first sight it looks ok |
| 13:46:53 | gevaerts | I'm wondering if we couldn't use a space character for the blank glyph though. It wouldn't be full width, but I don't know if that's needed, and it would save a (tiny, probably) amount of RAM. Not sure if it's worth it |
| 13:47:49 | gevaerts | I'm also not convinced that we won't need some sort of glyph preloading to force the cache to have more useful content before we close the file, but that's for later |
| 13:47:56 | kugel | a single glyph is so tiny it doesn't matter |
| 13:48:19 | gevaerts | Well, on a 50 point font... :) |
| 13:48:57 | kugel | gevaerts: the second commit performs a UI update, which should preload all necessary glyphs. well, unless the sbs is extremely dynamic |
| 13:49:12 | gevaerts | Ah, ok. That's probably enough then |
| 13:50:19 | gevaerts | And if not, we could still add things like preloading digits so clocks work properly. Let's leave that for when we know it's really needed though |
| 13:50:29 | kugel | assuming digits are competely in cache |
| 13:51:44 | kugel | on font load the iso8859-1 range is cached, including digits. it seems highly unlikely that digits get out of the cache |
| 13:52:09 | gevaerts | Well, themes can specify how big the cache should be |
| 13:53:16 | gevaerts | So if they do specify e.g. 11 (enough for HH:MM:SS, i.e. all digits and the ':'), that will end up having the right content after ten seconds, but not from the iso8859-1 preload |
| 13:53:24 | gevaerts | Well, not necessarily |
| 13:53:36 | kugel | in theory, yes, although this setting is not a theme setting, and thus not exported by "save theme settings" and not accepted by the theme site |
| 13:55:17 | kugel | the minimum is 50 |
| 13:58:33 | kugel | but preloading digits is just a matter of a dummy lcd_puts(0,0,"0123456789") call |
| 14:00 |
| 14:01:01 | gevaerts | Uh |
| 14:01:19 | gevaerts | It's an option to %Fl |
| 14:02:09 | kugel | oh, awesome, a way for themes to screw the OS up |
| 14:04:12 | kugel | anyway, we can consider explicit preloading if it turns out required |
| 14:05:27 | * | gevaerts nods |
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| 14:29:05 | chrisjj | A git fail, in case anyone is interested: http://git.rockbox.org/?p=rockbox.git;a=tree;h=0a3a68414633eea492ddf9a2fe0de7b7058a3161;hb=0a3a68414633eea492ddf9a2fe0de7b7058a3161 |
| 14:29:31 | chrisjj | Workaround: http://git.rockbox.org/?p=rockbox.git;a=tree perhaps. |
| 14:29:38 | toehser1 | I've seen weird "still have old backdrop, fixes itself on power cycle" also. Should "backdrop: -" in the cfg clear some other backdrop? It doesn't always. |
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| 14:30:31 | Extricated | Hiya, if I install Rockbox on my iPod will I lose all of my music and have to re-add it? |
| 14:34:42 | Extricated | Thanks for the help. /s |
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| 14:36:12 | copper | kugel: seems like FMS artwork sometimes crashes Rockbox |
| 14:36:25 | copper | the sim segfaults, and the Fuze+ data aborts |
| 14:36:39 | copper | randomly |
| 14:36:47 | copper | when switching FM presets |
| 14:38:05 | copper | I can still hear the radio, but the device is stuck on the data abort screen |
| 14:39:52 | copper | iPod Video sim too |
| 14:41:28 | | Quit Zagor (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) |
| 14:41:29 | toehser1 | PurlingNayuki: From what I saw the font conversion utilities are unidirectional to the fnt format. I would also like a way to go backwards from fnt (for me, mostly to be able to edit a single glyph or add one in toolsets that support other formats). An GUI editor that operates on fnt would do the trick of course but making a bidirectional converter would be much easier. |
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| 14:41:37 | copper | https://outpost.fr/rockbox/rockbox_fmpresets_perpignan.zip |
| 14:41:55 | | Join Zagor [242] (~bjst@rockbox/developer/Zagor) |
| 14:44:14 | toehser1 | (Stuff working when on USB sounds great, perhaps touchscreen devices can also be recognized as trackballs while you're at it?) |
| 14:45:05 | toehser1 | (jk) |
| 14:45:40 | kugel | wow, just wow |
| 14:46:45 | kugel | I'm depressed, seeing what crap code I sometimes produce |
| 14:48:46 | kugel | copper: fixed |
| 14:48:47 | toehser1 | (Wait - I've got it - my clipzip could be a USB microphone / USB sound card! Why not? Can you read the mic/write the audio out/do USB? (jk)) |
| 14:48:49 | copper | that archive extracts to the root directory and contains a preset file and corresponding FM art (for most stations) |
| 14:48:56 | fs-bluebot | Build Server message: New build round started. Revision 644d9ea, 249 builds, 32 clients. |
| 14:48:57 | copper | kugel: already? |
| 14:49:36 | copper | geez |
| 14:49:39 | kugel | toehser1: pamaury had worked on that some time ago |
| 14:49:56 | kugel | copper: thanks for that archive, it helped a lot |
| 14:50:04 | copper | np |
| 14:50:10 | toehser1 | I should have known someone here would also be tetched. |
| 14:50:48 | copper | kugel: did you forget to clear RAM usage or something? |
| 14:50:59 | PurlingNayuki | toehser1: Fnt format is actually not an original format by Rockbox? |
| 14:51:34 | toehser1 | I think it is, but that doesn't affect the question, so I never gave that much thought. |
| 14:51:53 | kugel | copper: ? |
| 14:52:03 | toehser1 | What are you trying to do? Pretty much most of the fonts you can find in a source format to manipulate if you have to. |
| 14:52:13 | copper | anyway, fixed indeed, thanks :) |
| 14:52:35 | chrisjj | toehser1: "could be a USB microphone / USB sound card!" Also nice would be remote UI access from PC to player. |
| 14:53:07 | toehser1 | Or a remote debugger! The sim is nice, but remote debugging would be cool. |
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| 14:53:58 | toehser1 | But if I understand my (minimal) skimming, nothing that needs flash access can happen when USB is active, so most of those things are off the table. |
| 14:54:40 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 14:55:09 | kugel | most things, including the ones you mentioned, don't need filesystem access |
| 14:55:35 | kugel | for cases where this is requried you could use a ramdisk |
| 14:56:57 | toehser1 | There are docs around about how to use fontforge, and ways to find the original fonts that stuff came from. But I would still like an implementation of the use case "edit a rockbox font" from fnt=>something=>editor=>something=>fnt. |
| 14:58:19 | toehser1 | kugel: the thread was saying that ram is often so limited that even a full font can't fit in memory, much less a full song, so I think things like remote UI access and probably even remote debugging are in practice off the table, if the disk can't be accessed while USB traffic is active. |
| 14:59:07 | toehser1 | but the soundcard/mic idea or the trackball idea don't need disk of course |
| 15:00 |
| 15:00:31 | kugel | well, some targets can't support everything |
| 15:00:48 | kugel | but there are 64MB targets, which is plenty for toying around |
| 15:01:44 | kugel | also, filesystem access is only blocked during UMS mode |
| 15:02:06 | kugel | i.e. no UMS -> full access |
| 15:07:41 | PurlingNayuki | toehser1: I want to get the source of font. |
| 15:08:00 | PurlingNayuki | It isn't included in the source |
| 15:08:26 | PurlingNayuki | Nor can be found by searching the file name. |
| 15:10:19 | gevaerts | toehser1: nothing that needs storage can run when USB Mass Storage is active. USB itself isn't the issue |
| 15:10:31 | gevaerts | It's just that you can't access the same filesystem from both sides |
| 15:13:38 | chrisjj | toehser1: Oh yes, remote debugger could bring this project on by miles! |
| 15:14:05 | chrisjj | The sim is no substitute for the device code. |
| 15:15:01 | chrisjj | This flash v. USB is a limitation only of the current RB code? |
| 15:16:17 | gevaerts | Of course not |
| 15:16:17 | kugel | chrisjj: re the playlist viewer option/manual thing |
| 15:16:29 | toehser1 | You could access the same filesystem from both sides if one was in r/o mode with a flag to tell it to refresh when the other side wrote... |
| 15:16:33 | chrisjj | mmm... ? |
| 15:16:49 | kugel | chrisjj: at the time I made the comment the manual didn't reflect the code. later on I changed the code so that the manual is right again |
| 15:16:49 | gevaerts | toehser1: have fun implementing that in a reliable way on top of something like FAT |
| 15:16:50 | toehser1 | PurlingNayuki: The source of WHICH font? |
| 15:16:57 | chrisjj | toehser: great. |
| 15:17:16 | chrisjj | kugel: OK, I get it. Thanks. |
| 15:17:31 | gevaerts | There are specialised filesystems that can do that, but none of the common ones do |
| 15:18:23 | chrisjj | kugel: kugel: BTW, your "Reason for closing: Fixed Additional comments about closing: fe73d75" refers to the wrong commit. |
| 15:19:03 | kugel | indeed, sorry about that |
| 15:19:05 | toehser1 | It sort of depends - if one side is just reading mp3 and fnt and wps and cfg files that aren't changed by the other side, for example, there shouldn't be a problem, they aren't going to be moving around in the FAT. And, if the writes are infrequent enough from the writing side, the cost of just unmounting/remounting from the other side when told of an update may be acceptable. |
| 15:19:16 | chrisjj | kugel: Correct is http://git.rockbox.org/?p=rockbox.git;a=commit;h=2d4bf62032cf1d793abfbe73942ec050161844c1 |
| 15:19:47 | kugel | right, I already changed the close msg |
| 15:20:23 | gevaerts | toehser1: you're free to run a defragmenter on the host |
| 15:20:44 | gevaerts | It's really a huge can of worms |
| 15:20:55 | gevaerts | Which is why if you want that sort of thing you do MTP |
| 15:22:47 | chrisjj | kugel: Thanks. BTW, odd that my "Reason for request" has appeared as a comment. |
| 15:26:51 | PurlingNayuki | kugel: G#384 will be updated? |
| 15:26:53 | fs-bluebot | Gerrit review #384 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/384 : Touchscreen: Show a line separator in lists. by Thomas Martitz (changes/84/384/3) |
| 15:27:28 | kugel | PurlingNayuki: yes, later |
| 15:27:55 | PurlingNayuki | It is by design to show on all targets or touchscreen targets only? |
| 15:28:44 | kugel | was touchscreen-only at first but I changed my mind |
| 15:29:15 | toehser1 | Not sure I agree about the can of worms aspect. But I'm also not sure that the use cases are valuable enough to make it worth doing. I'm more interested in the idea of remote debugging. But another way to do it, instead of giving the host direct access, give the host access through the os of the player or reroute the player's access through the host OS - if everything goes through one side, the can of worms would be a lot smaller. But I will say, if |
| 15:29:54 | gevaerts | You don't need disk access for remote debugging |
| 15:30:26 | toehser1 | Right - I was mixing two conversations - caffeine registers are still low here in -4 TZ. |
| 15:30:49 | toehser1 | I mean -5 |
| 15:32:22 | PurlingNayuki | kugel: Then I'll just wait :) |
| 15:32:47 | PurlingNayuki | Would try to implement lcd_get_dpi for all targets if you said no |
| 15:33:24 | kugel | PurlingNayuki: I only need the lcd sizes of all of our targets (in inch) |
| 15:34:06 | kugel | i build a script to calculate the dpi and add the needed line to config/$target.h |
| 15:34:14 | kugel | built* |
| 15:34:36 | toehser1 | PurlingNayuki: Which font are you trying to find source for? |
| 15:34:50 | PurlingNayuki | That's espy asian |
| 15:35:12 | kugel | PurlingNayuki: if want to help you could collect some for me |
| 15:36:04 | gevaerts | kugel: make sure lebellium knows you need this :) |
| 15:36:18 | PurlingNayuki | Collect what? LCD size? |
| 15:36:42 | kugel | "I only need the lcd sizes of all of our targets (in inch)" |
| 15:37:41 | PurlingNayuki | That sounds not difficult. |
| 15:37:55 | kugel | right, it only takes a lot of time |
| 15:38:10 | PurlingNayuki | Just push a sample to gerrit and I'll help |
| 15:38:49 | PurlingNayuki | For I'm actually interested and using it. Also added this to my published rockbox version. |
| 15:38:58 | kugel | i just need a list "$target: XX inch" |
| 15:39:10 | kugel | I'll feed my script with that (manually) |
| 15:40:44 | PurlingNayuki | Manually... |
| 15:41:18 | PurlingNayuki | Just, nasty and dumplicated work. |
| 15:42:48 | PurlingNayuki | toehser1: Any results for espy asian? I once thought it was zpix but it wasnt. |
| 15:45:57 | kugel | PurlingNayuki: could also make the list machine readable; anyway I'm going to need such a list |
| 15:46:56 | PurlingNayuki | Shouldn't we add this to $target.h? |
| 15:50:31 | chrisjj | kugel: On "at the time I made the comment the manual didn't reflect the code." understood, but I hope we agree, that comment "however the manual is still wrong indeed." was inaccurate. The manual was right - it was the code that was wrong. |
| 15:53:17 | toehser1 | The espy fonts I think came from Apple Newton originally, then at some point were made legal to use, and used for daps. |
| 15:56:27 | PurlingNayuki | Hmmm let me take a look |
| 15:56:57 | PurlingNayuki | But it's with unicode support |
| 15:57:26 | PurlingNayuki | Thought to be full unicode support, including BIG5, GBK and SJIS |
| 15:57:56 | PurlingNayuki | Is it espy sans? |
| 16:00 |
| 16:04:34 | pamaury | toehser1: yeah I worked on making rockbox a usb soundcard and even making the Fuze+ touchpad a HID touchpad, but both work were never finished and are not probably out of sync, even though they kind of worked |
| 16:05:38 | wodz | pamaury: you should really finish usb audio work. This could be killer feature of rockboxed dap |
| 16:06:21 | pamaury | yeah agree |
| 16:06:41 | PurlingNayuki | Agree too |
| 16:06:50 | toehser1 | I think there was an "apple guide localization kit" for example. Espy sans probably doesn't have what you want, probably is a subset. I see references to it being in eworld fonts also. I think what you're looking for is versions of apple stuff that were localized, way back when. |
| 16:08:04 | pamaury | but first I said I would finish my ongoing work on some DAPs |
| 16:08:16 | pamaury | like make plugins works, update manuals and so on |
| 16:08:24 | toehser1 | Clip has a pretty good microphone to my ears, and definitely good DA, if we could introduce a better usb mic and da output at a lower price than dedicated solutions, it would probably make a few sit up and notice. |
| 16:09:23 | toehser1 | Disclaimer: I hate apple and have never owned an apple product. So I'm probably a sub-optimal person to fish this one. |
| 16:12:20 | toehser1 | But I see references to things like "apple guide maker" and "apple guide localization" and "eworld fonts are espy fonts" from way back when, making me suspect that this is where to go... (Any chance some other font could meet your needs? What about espy is special?) |
| 16:12:45 | PurlingNayuki | toehser1: I think the espy asian font is a mixed-up font. Look at its name, espy + asian :) |
| 16:12:56 | PurlingNayuki | Should really try to find out what asian font is. |
| 16:13:14 | wodz | pamaury: you should really leave the easy work to others. |
| 16:15:03 | chrisjj | pamaury: USB audio the other way too would be nice. Device −−> PC. Good for a future remote access mode. Combined with remote debugging, this would be a killer device IDE. |
| 16:17:52 | toehser1 | I think someone just ran the localization on an asian machine using the apple guide (help system) development environment. All you need is a 1995 Mac development environment from the country you want... |
| 16:20:00 | toehser1 | Another approach would be to try to track down the theme author who first included it, from theme comments and such, if you can dig up an email address, ask them... |
| 16:20:03 | PurlingNayuki | I don't think there would an apple designed just for Hongkong :( |
| 16:20:56 | toehser1 | I think the OS was in fact localized, and that affected the generation of apple guide help files and their associated font file, from what I see. |
| 16:21:37 | toehser1 | but, again- why that font? Are there similar open source fonts that are easier? |
| 16:22:10 | PurlingNayuki | IMO that's the best font |
| 16:22:20 | PurlingNayuki | Especially for that size |
| 16:22:50 | PurlingNayuki | It seems to be designed just for small screen targets running rockbox |
| 16:26:21 | kugel | PurlingNayuki: that's the plan, as I said |
| 16:26:55 | kugel | if the list would be "<target.h>: XX inch" I could automate the whole process |
| 16:29:42 | toehser1 | I like the noto fonts. What are you trying to do with it- add glyphs or something? |
| 16:30:21 | toehser1 | When you say it is the "best font", you mean "out of the ones you happen to have in your player", or, "in the world"? |
| 16:30:57 | pamaury | wodz: no one does it otherwise :-( |
| 16:31:14 | pamaury | And I don't want to leave ports in a half finished state |
| 16:31:47 | pamaury | chrisjj: what do you mean the other way ? USB audio is full duplex: you can play and record |
| 16:32:01 | PurlingNayuki | toehser1: among all the fonts that have (full) unicode support and under 12px |
| 16:33:41 | chrisjj | pamaury: What I mean is that the audio from the device sounds through the PC. |
| 16:33:42 | toehser1 | When you say "all the fonts", do you mean "all the fonts on your player" or "all the fonts in the world"? |
| 16:34:02 | pamaury | chrisjj: that's recording no ? |
| 16:34:17 | chrisjj | No. |
| 16:34:18 | toehser1 | We really want 3 audios - player (playing) to pc, player (mic) to pc, and pc to player. |
| 16:34:18 | | Quit Strife89 (Read error: Operation timed out) |
| 16:34:27 | toehser1 | right? |
| 16:34:39 | PurlingNayuki | OK I surrender |
| 16:34:41 | chrisjj | There's a fourth, but let's not be greedy :) |
| 16:35:36 | | Quit mt_ (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 16:36:27 | pamaury | chrisjj: I don't get it ? What do you expect USB audio to be used for if it's neither playback or recording ? |
| 16:37:52 | toehser1 | I just mean to say, there are probably fonts with full unicode support and under 12px that you haven't looked at, that are MUCH easier to find/work with that espy-asian... I would spend time looking from that angle, before the espy-asian one... have you looked at the ones Greg Till converted, at http://www.mediafire.com/?xe69ja577wbbvx6 ? |
| 16:38:13 | chrisjj | pamary: It is playback. You said "I worked on making rockbox a usb soundcard" - that's tracks on PC sounding on device, I assume. My suggestion is the other way (direction): tracks on device sounding on PC. |
| 16:39:34 | pamaury | Err, I still don't understand, anyway I'm not working on it right now |
| 16:39:41 | toehser1 | what is the fourth? Yes, pc apps see the player as an output device, yes, pc apps see the player as an input (from it's playing of files), yes, pc apps see the player as an input (access to it's microphone)... that is 3 |
| 16:39:52 | PurlingNayuki | toehser1: Actually, yes and no. |
| 16:40:19 | PurlingNayuki | Downloaded before but they're all anti-aliased right? |
| 16:40:55 | toehser1 | Those files are from known sources, you can go back to truetype or bdf, edit, reconvert, whatever. We have all the pieces. |
| 16:40:58 | gevaerts | chrisjj: as far as USB audio is concerned, that's exactly the same as recordingf |
| 16:41:17 | PurlingNayuki | And most of them don't have chinese support |
| 16:42:03 | toehser1 | I think converting from AA to normal isn't hard in something like fontforge, is it? It is loss of information. NoTo is supposed to have EVERYTHING support - the "noto" means "no tofu" from a reference to the "squares" you see when a font doesn't have a character - so I think it is probably pretty complete as far as languages. |
| 16:42:10 | toehser1 | Why don't you want AA? |
| 16:43:21 | PurlingNayuki | Because of the small screen on sansa zip |
| 16:44:06 | toehser1 | Huh? AA is better on zip. I have zip, an looked at both side by side, before choosing fonts for my themes. I'll take NoTo on the Zip over ANY non-AA font. Looks better. |
| 16:44:06 | PurlingNayuki | Use AA fonts on GBS, Fuze and iPod Nano2 but just don't like the unclearness on clip zip |
| 16:44:33 | PurlingNayuki | Better, yes, but not for chinese. |
| 16:45:00 | toehser1 | I see - the thin complex lines aren't done right in the AA. AA could have left those lines without fuzz, but didn't. |
| 16:45:09 | gevaerts | AA is a matter of opinion. It's not *objectively* better or worse in any case |
| 16:45:38 | toehser1 | Really just bad authoring - not AA vs. not AA, just that the person who designed the chinese glyphs made bad choices. |
| 16:46:24 | toehser1 | Well - here is what I would do. Look at the BDF=>FNT source. If it looks straightforward to add reverse-conversion, do that. If not, bribe the author to do it. |
| 16:47:06 | toehser1 | AA is better in that the AA font can have hard edges (exactly reproduce non-AA), but not the other way. |
| 16:47:07 | PurlingNayuki | Plus hongkong uses traditional Chinese, which makes it more difficult to write and display while it looks more beautiful |
| 16:47:38 | toehser1 | AA fonts can display a superset of what non-AA fonts can display. |
| 16:47:55 | PurlingNayuki | How do you share picture in IRC? Show you a picture and you'll find that non-AA is also not bad. |
| 16:47:55 | toehser1 | Any given AA font, though, I agree, isn't inherently better than any given non-AA font. |
| 16:48:16 | PurlingNayuki | Again, in terms of Chinese displaying. |
| 16:48:36 | toehser1 | People use stuff like pastebin for text, must be an equivalent for images. Doesn't matter though - I get the idea. |
| 16:50:04 | PurlingNayuki | If I use English only, I'll also definitely choose AA fonts −− but actually I'm not. |
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| 16:59:32 | chrisjj | toehser1: "player (playing) to pc, player (mic) to pc, and pc to player." pc mic to player. |
| 17:00 |
| 17:00:34 | | Quit fragilematter (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 17:00:50 | chrisjj | Perhaps best to consider this as player (whether files, mic or any other) to PC, and PC (whether files, mic or any other) to player. |
| 17:01:10 | gevaerts | chrisjj: that's what everyone but you is doing, yes |
| 17:01:38 | chrisjj | "People use stuff like pastebin for text, must be an equivalent for images." Perhaps try http://pixlr.com/editor/ . |
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| 17:17:10 | | Quit foolsh (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 17:26:40 | toehser1 | chrissjj: That is a routing thing that the player doesn't need to see - if I have an output to the player, I can just use jack routing to route any pc source to that channel. Why would rockbox need to see 2 stereo channels to the pc? But, I _could_ see a case for 2 channels to the pc from the player: Say: karaoke track on the mp3 file, and you're singing with it using the player's microphone, and want both those channels going to the pc... |
| 17:27:16 | toehser1 | (By "to" I meant "from" at one point there) |
| 17:28:01 | kugel | toehser1: there's imagebin |
| 17:29:01 | wodz | toehser1: if you think about playing something on the dap, using dap's microphone and sending mix of this to the pc through USB you are way too futuristic :-) |
| 17:29:59 | toehser1 | Oh - I wasn't thinking about sending a mix - I was thinking about sending both streams, for possible mixing on the PC. |
| 17:30:00 | toehser1 | :) |
| 17:30:53 | wodz | toehser1: not possible either |
| 17:30:58 | toehser1 | The only use case I think I would personally care about would be the USB microphone case. |
| 17:31:02 | wodz | at least not with current daps |
| 17:31:17 | toehser1 | Why not? CPU limits, USB chip limits? |
| 17:31:38 | wodz | afaik you cannot record and play something at the same time |
| 17:31:45 | toehser1 | Or the same audio chip path for the mic and the audio? |
| 17:31:53 | wodz | digital part, yes |
| 17:32:26 | wodz | at least for vast majority of daps |
| 17:33:10 | toehser1 | Most PCs already have D-A outputs on speakers or headphone jacks, anyway, so the PC=USB=>Player=>audio-out case isn't very interesting, to me. |
| 17:34:25 | kugel | rockbox doesnt allow simultaneous playback and recording |
| 17:36:49 | kugel | pamaury: re FS #10916: I found the vhci driver is now in mainline (though staging), could revive that task? |
| 17:36:50 | fs-bluebot | http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/10916 Add usb capability to simulator on Linux hosts (patches, new) |
| 17:37:14 | pamaury | oh really ? that's great news ! |
| 17:37:37 | pamaury | damn, that was already 4 years ago :-/ |
| 17:37:46 | kugel | it's under USB/IP, somewhat hard to find |
| 17:37:53 | kugel | (in menuconfig) |
| 17:38:25 | pamaury | I'm not so sure the usbip stuff will ever make it to mainline |
| 17:43:18 | pamaury | ah yeah you are right, I wonder how does it compare with the usb vhci stuff on sourceforge |
| 17:45:15 | pamaury | apparently it is not the same |
| 17:45:27 | | Quit wodz (Quit: Leaving) |
| 17:46:59 | pamaury | but yeah this thing was very useful to stress the simulator with usb |
| 17:49:17 | pamaury | kugel: if you are interested, I can see if I can revive it. A priori it should not have changed much |
| 18:00 |
| 18:08:09 | chrisjj | toehser: no I wasn't thinking that futuristic! :) |
| 18:11:00 | saratoga | does AMSv2 have a bootloader USB mode? i've seen a few people mention that USB is more stable if the player is booted first |
| 18:11:06 | chrisjj | toehser: My interest is only in in player audio going to PC speakers, since that's what's needed for RDP-style remote access, that being very useful for development. |
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| 18:15:13 | Baranko | hi |
| 18:15:58 | Baranko | guys, i take devbuild, but there is still usb problems: http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php/topic,43526.0.html |
| 18:16:24 | Baranko | i have it when it hub connected and when i transfer files. |
| 18:16:35 | Baranko | is there anything like logs that can help you? |
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| 18:32:37 | saratoga__ | the log to disk code could be pretty useful for USB debugging |
| 18:33:08 | saratoga__ | it should be able to store debug info and dump to disk after disconnect |
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| 18:41:17 | Baranko | it can be enable somewhere in sansa or what? ) |
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| 18:51:55 | kugel | pamaury: I'm sure interested, especially considering the number of theme/usb related bugs in the last months |
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| 18:57:01 | | Part LinusN |
| 18:59:57 | * | kugel squashed another bug |
| 19:00 |
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| 19:13:36 | copper | what bug? |
| 19:14:51 | toehser1 | I have a couple of clip+ where either the power button broke or something else such that they aren't useful as players really, but I could play with JTAG on them - any recommendations on USB-JTAG hardware? |
| 19:18:36 | chrisjj | http://www.openjtag.org/ |
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| 19:30:13 | pamaury | kugel: ok, I'll try to have a quick look tomorrow |
| 19:37:48 | toehser1 | Hmmm... I see that a $5 arduino clone can be a USB-JTAG adapter... I think I'll investigate that before going the 80-Euro route... |
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| 21:17:01 | wodz | kugel: (log) what about reds? |
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| 22:44:33 | kugel | gevaerts: did you already have a look at the font thingy? |
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| 22:51:18 | wodz | kugel: still some reds |
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| 22:55:50 | kugel | gah |
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| 23:30:17 | gevaerts | kugel: I can't find anything I dislike :) |
| 23:30:28 | gevaerts | It all looks reasonable to me |
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| 23:31:04 | gevaerts | Of course, take that with the grain of salt that matches my knowledge of apps/ code in general |
| 23:32:48 | kugel | gevaerts: most changes are in firmware :) |
| 23:33:18 | kugel | if you looked at it you could press the review button on gerrit :p |
| 23:33:53 | gevaerts | s/apps/gui! |
| 23:33:58 | * | gevaerts will |
| 23:36:29 | kugel | gevaerts: what target did you test on? |
| 23:36:34 | gevaerts | ipod video |
| 23:36:49 | gevaerts | I didn't do very intensive tests though |
| 23:37:01 | kugel | cool |
| 23:38:56 | gevaerts | So now I'll have to work on having the usb code maintain statistics about transfer speed and volume, so we can have a theme tag to show those |
| 23:39:15 | kugel | right :) |
| 23:39:31 | gevaerts | I mean, apart from that, what possible use could a skinnable USB screen be? ;) |
| 23:40:35 | kugel | it's not skinnable yet, it just doesnt disable the sbs anymore |
| 23:41:03 | gevaerts | Well, that means you can probably do creative sbs stuff and pretend it's skinnable |
| 23:41:34 | kugel | that always works yes :) |
| 23:41:51 | kugel | although I think %cs doesnt indicate the usb screen yet, but that's easy |
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| 23:43:40 | gevaerts | Yes, you do need that |
| 23:44:24 | kugel | works on fuzev2 too with an sbs-enabled theme |
| 23:45:09 | kugel | I also tested the fallback to blank glyph. I'll just push it |
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| 23:50:07 | kugel | do we have a manual section about usb |
| 23:50:08 | kugel | ? |
| 23:50:43 | gevaerts | Not a specific section, no |
| 23:51:54 | kugel | then there is no place to put a note about the possiblity of missing characters in the sbs during usb |
| 23:54:08 | gevaerts | I'd consider adding such a note to the theming secions |
| 23:55:33 | [Saint] | Im not even sure why there need be missing/replaced chars. |
| 23:56:06 | gevaerts | Because of variable text |
| 23:56:14 | [Saint] | Isn't it a lot easier to just check if the required fonts fit in RAM and fall back to sysfont completely? |
| 23:56:27 | [Saint] | rather than doing it piece meal. |
| 23:56:36 | [Saint] | at least it'll look consistent. |
| 23:56:37 | gevaerts | I don't think so, no |
| 23:56:53 | gevaerts | The way this is implemented is fairly straightforward |
| 23:57:19 | kugel | [Saint]: sysfont is shit |
| 23:57:40 | [Saint] | so is never knowing what glyphs youll have. |
| 23:57:43 | gevaerts | And I think that while it may drop a few glyph right now, we can probably make that very improbable reasonably easily if needed |
| 23:57:48 | [Saint] | thats terrible. |
| 23:58:07 | gevaerts | We'll just blame the font's unicode coverage :) |
| 23:58:15 | [Saint] | plenty of targets have no need for this. |
| 23:58:32 | kugel | in practice everything shown in the USB screen will be in cache |
| 23:58:38 | [Saint] | we /could/ stuff all fonts in RAM on a lot of targets. |
| 23:58:47 | [Saint] | do this trickery with lowmem. |
| 23:58:58 | gevaerts | No |
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