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#rockbox log for 2014-01-24

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10:41:28PurlingNayukiGuys I notice that USB in daily build doesn't work again.
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14:53:47chrisjjAre build details http://build.rockbox.org/dev.cgi prior to one week ago available?
14:56:35Zagorchrisjj: they are stored in the database, but there is not interface written to present them
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15:00
15:01:24AlexPForums are down?
15:02:15chrisjjZagor: thanks.
15:04:52 Quit cmhobbs (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
15:06:28pixelmaAlexP: they usually just slow down to a crawl whenever someone is banning a user, maybe that's that
15:06:39AlexPah yes, could be
15:06:49AlexPIndeed yes, they seem to have come back now
15:06:55AlexPI'd forgotten the five minute ban issue
15:07:00chrisjjZagor: how about adding the other stable port targets to FlySpray "Operating System"? e.g. http://imageshack.com/a/img585/4665/0vu0.png
15:07:14AlexPIt's why I don't tend to ban spammers now if the trap caught them
15:07:53Zagorchrisjj: sounds good. I can't do it right now though.
15:09:37chrisjjOK thanks.
15:10:45chrisjjZagor: how can I access that builder details database?
15:11:15Zagorchrisjj: you can't. it's an sql db on the buildmaster server.
15:11:26chrisjjOK, I get it. Thanks.
15:15:03 Join ruskie [0] (ruskie@sourcemage/mage/ruskie)
15:15:56chrisjjAnyone know what patch caused the Archos Recorder V1 build breakage of the last couple of months?
15:20:03AlexPchrisjj: It's been longer than that, and nothing specific
15:20:07AlexPIt's just too big
15:20:29chrisjjToo big... to fix?
15:20:45AlexPno, the file that is produced is too big for the unit to load
15:20:47chrisjj(I'd thought the figure '2' means two errors.)
15:21:00gevaertsIt means two error *lines*
15:21:02AlexPit does, but they might be as a result of the same thing
15:21:09AlexPclick on the number to see the log
15:21:37gevaertsFixing it is easy. Move it over to the "regular" bootloader model instead of having the ROM boot the main binary, so we aren't limited by the ROM's size limits
15:21:47gevaertsIt's just *work* and testing
15:22:36gevaertsWorking around it for a few weeks is also easy. Just pick another feature to disable for those
15:24:26 Join kugel [0] (~kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel)
15:25:33kugelgevaerts: the hwcodec+monochrome doesnt have that many features to disable
15:26:39AlexPWhat about the display?
15:26:50AlexPDoes voice work on it? :)
15:27:32gevaertsWe can still disable some stuff, but it's going to be closer and closer to core features
15:27:58gevaertsHAVE_LCD_INVERT is the easy one, but I bet it's not enough
15:28:22gevaertsAfter that, we can disable quickscreen, hotkey, tagcache, recording, ...
15:28:51gevaertsI'm not saying disabling those is better than just dropping support :)
15:29:15AlexPYes, there doesn't seem much point in just removing stuff in order to keep it going
15:29:35AlexPRather than either fixing it, or stopping at a known good and fairly complete point
15:30:30chrisjjAlexP: Thanks. "error: firmware image is 207698 bytes while max size is 204800! " That's clear! :)
15:30:35AlexP:)
15:31:41chrisjjIs this the first target for which retirement has been considered, in RB history?
15:31:54AlexPYes and no
15:32:02chrisjjThat's not clear :)
15:32:09AlexPYes as none have been, no as it isn't the only one
15:32:25AlexPIf any were to be retired it'd likely be all the hardware codec targets
15:32:32chrisjjOK, so >1 considered, <1 enacted.
15:32:38AlexPyes
15:33:24chrisjjIt might be worth now enhancing the release process to provide for pinning a target upon future retirement.
15:33:38pixelmaexcept if you consider one port which didn't even get to the stage of usable and development halted after the only one coder vanished
15:33:39AlexPThat's easy, we just don't release a new version
15:33:57AlexPpixelma: true, there have been many started and abandoned
15:34:44chrisjjDoes that handle e.g. the manual?
15:35:38AlexPFor the release stuff, yes I think so
15:35:41AlexPI'd have to check
15:35:49gevaertsYes
15:35:52AlexPBut all this would be part of dropping it
15:36:29chrisjjI have to say that the time I tried to go back to an old version, for another user, RButil delivered the wrong version of the manual.
15:37:10gevaertsThere's no *technical* issue with dropping it at all. It's just difficult to drop the targets that rockbox got started on
15:37:17AlexPI've got no view on that without a lot more details
15:37:34chrisjjISTM RButil doesn't coordinate the released code with the released manual. It is workaroundable by finding the URL of the odl manaul, but not simple for a plain user.
15:37:42AlexPeh?
15:38:00chrisjjHave a go and you'll see what I mean.
15:38:11AlexPIt might get it wrong if you go for archived releases I guess, I've never tried
15:38:25 Join dizzylizzy [0] (~dizzylizz@unaffiliated/aubreyr)
15:38:40AlexPBut this is beside the point for dropping Archos anyway
15:38:42dizzylizzySo I dropped my old player running rockbox in the tub, and ordered a Sansa Clip+ online.
15:38:44chrisjjHow so?
15:38:57AlexPAs the current release would not get updated
15:39:04AlexPIt would still be the current release
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15:39:31chrisjjAh, so generic changes to the manual would cease to be carried to the current Archos manual?
15:39:43AlexPThey aren't for the release manual anyway
15:39:54AlexPThere is a manual built for each release, and a manual each day
15:40:00chrisjjI thought they were.
15:40:06AlexPThe one for a specific release never changes
15:40:13AlexPThe 3.13 manual is the 3.13 manual
15:40:20AlexPthe 3.12 manual is the 3.12 manual
15:40:36AlexPThe current build manual is updated every day with any changes
15:41:22chrisjj"The one for a specific release never changes" Understood, but that's not the one RButil delivers.
15:41:34AlexPIt is if you install a release
15:41:43AlexPOr it should be, if it isn't it is a bug
15:42:05AlexPOld daily build manuals are not kept, so if you install an old archived build, yes you will get the current daily build manual
15:42:10dizzylizzyI installed the development branch of Rockbox on the device (I did not look at the original software on there) and now when I turn it on it just says it's scanning the database and hangs there forever. I checked the wiki page and it says to connect the device and then immediately disconnect it as soon as the rockbox logo appears, but that does not do anything.
15:42:25AlexPdizzylizzy: Do you have any music files on the device?
15:42:35dizzylizzyAlexP: None, they're all on my 32G microSD card
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15:42:46dizzylizzywhich is not inserted
15:42:52AlexPyeah, known bug
15:43:02dizzylizzyis it surmountable?
15:43:09AlexPThe db hangs on building if it finds no music files at all
15:43:14dizzylizzyoh :-/
15:43:21AlexPYes, put a minimum of one music file on the device
15:43:28dizzylizzyI'll put in my SD card
15:43:34AlexPOr that, hopefully
15:43:38dizzylizzyI cannot mount the device to put files on it
15:43:39AlexPIt's an annoying bug
15:43:47AlexPeven in the sansa firmware?
15:43:54dizzylizzyI did not try to use the sansa firmware.
15:44:01AlexPThat should still work
15:44:18chrisjjAlexP: "It is if you install a release". RButil release installs do not include a manual AFAICS. RButil simply links to the current manual on the website, whether or not it is correct for the release.
15:44:18AlexPThe RB USB mode had some fixes recently, but still seems to be a bit flakey
15:44:27AlexPchrisjj: Oh, OK
15:44:43AlexPWell if we dropped hwcodec we'd also stop doing manual builds for them
15:44:53dizzylizzyAlexP: thank you, i'll see what I can do
15:45:19chrisjjHence my point about enhancing to support non-updated releases. Dominik, have you any interest in this?
15:45:31AlexPIt would though
15:45:51AlexPIf we drop hwcodec we'd also stop building manuals
15:46:06AlexPSo the last built manual available would be offered
15:46:24AlexPGetting rbutil to give the release manual when a release is selected would be good though I think
15:46:28chrisjjOK, so you're saying that you'd not just stop releasing, but disable building as well.
15:46:32AlexPyes
15:46:38AlexPWell, I think so
15:46:43chrisjjI get it. Sounds somewhat final, though :)
15:46:57AlexPYes, hence the reluctance
15:47:01chrisjjFinal is I guess appropriate in that case, but who knows about others.
15:47:05AlexPWe could always restart though
15:47:15AlexPor we could branch, and keep building
15:47:23AlexPBut if nothing changes, what''s the point?
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15:47:37AlexPBut I bet there is a point someone will point out that I haven't thought of
15:47:40chrisjjA restart would reintroduce the manual problem.
15:47:56AlexPBut anyway, all of this would be part of dropping them
15:48:20AlexPAnd if you want to attract someone's attention you should use their nick so their client highlights them
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15:48:36chrisjjPerhaps there's interest in making the simple enhancement to RButils before it becomes an issue.
15:48:56AlexPI'm sure nobody would object, someone needs to do it as with everything
15:49:18chrisjjRe nick, thanks for the reminder.
15:49:50***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
15:50:11chrisjjbluebrother: <chrisjj> "The one for a specific release never changes" Understood, but that's not the one RButil delivers.
15:50:57chrisjjbluebrother: <AlexP> It is if you install a release <AlexP> Or it should be, if it isn't it is a bug
15:51:12AlexPOr just not implemented :)
15:51:32chrisjjOr a bug for which a fix is not implemented :)
15:51:53AlexPwell either or
15:52:11AlexPIf it is intended and doesn't work it's a bug, if it isn't intended it just isn't implemented
15:52:47chrisjjRoot issue is that RButil install does not actually install a manual at all.
15:53:10chrisjjAFAICS.
15:53:46AlexPwell, you can't really install a manual
15:53:50AlexPIt is just a pdf
15:53:57AlexPYou can download it somewhere
15:54:43chrisjjSure you can install the manual. I've written many installers and the manuals they install.
15:54:50AlexPNot really
15:54:57AlexPWhere would you install it?
15:55:01AlexPNot to the users computer
15:55:22AlexPI certainly don''t want a menu entry showing up with a link to the Rockbox manual
15:55:31chrisjjReally. .HLP, .CHM, and .PDF.
15:55:35AlexPAnd to the device is pointless, it doesn't have a pdf viewer
15:55:56AlexPSo all you can do is give them a link to download it if they want
15:56:15chrisjjWell, I'd install it to the device if the device could display it :) But failing that, yes to the user's computer. Where else??
15:56:24AlexPThat's the point, nowhere
15:56:43AlexPYou can "install" it if by that you mean download and create a menu entry
15:56:48AlexPBut we don't want to do that
15:57:06chrisjj"So all you can do is give them a link to download it if they want" A link to download to the user's computer ??
15:57:24AlexPOf course, so they can do what they want with it
15:57:35AlexPRather than us forcing it into a particular place
15:59:15toehserdizzylizzy: are you sure about the clip+ instead of clipZip choice? Aside from the obvious (micro vs. mini USB, FM text, display, mic location); the power button on the clip+ seems to have a design issue that makes it break early...
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16:00:12chrisjjWell, user do generally expect an installer to provide automatically, rather than the user being required to download manually. And a good installer does not force it to a particular place.
16:00:31chrisjjBut if RButil does not want to be that kind of installer, no problem.
16:00:33AlexPI don't think so, not for just a document
16:00:35gevaertsRockbox Utility isn't an installer in the usual sense
16:00:47AlexPIf you are actually installing a program to a PC sure
16:00:51AlexPBut RBUtil isn't
16:00:57chrisjjWhat is a problem is that the manual RButil provides for download manually is not necessarily the correct version.
16:01:00AlexPIt is installing Rockbox on a DAP
16:01:19AlexPYou're thinking about it backwards
16:01:31dizzylizzytoehser: it's brand new. it's already broken?
16:01:45chrisjjRButils is not just installing RB on a DAP. It is also providing the manual.
16:01:57AlexPAs a service
16:02:11AlexPI'm not interested in arguing about this anymore, I've got better things to do
16:02:14dizzylizzytoehser: it's definitely a clip+
16:02:27chrisjjBackwards. Well, I'm thinking about it from the user POV and that does often look the reverse of from a devs POV :)
16:02:41AlexPNot true
16:02:41dizzylizzyI wasn't aware of any inherent power button failure, otherwise I would have purchased something else. I thought I had done enough research on the site before shelling out money, but it looks like I didn't.
16:02:47toehserI saw you had ordered it - didn't realize you had the clip+ already- I was just recommending that if you had just ordered it, you order the zip instead.
16:02:49chrisjjNo argument seen here.
16:02:51chrisjjBye for now.
16:03:01AlexPYou are assuming, wrongly, that you and you alone knows what a user wants or expects
16:03:10AlexPWe could all say that
16:03:16toehserDon't worry - they last a year or two of heavy use before the + fails and the zip keeps on cranking, plenty long enough for value/dollar.
16:03:37dizzylizzytoehser: well that should be fine then
16:03:38gevaertsdizzylizzy: most people are perfectly happy with either the clip+ or the clip zip, but toehser knows how to break the plus quite well :)
16:03:43toehserDid you get it mounted to USB? Holding the select key (powered off) while plugging it in usually works.
16:03:54toehserI have kids :)
16:04:05gevaertsAh, ok. That explains it :)
16:04:06toehserThey are my "torture test" department.
16:04:15dizzylizzyI miss my sandisk e200 :( i wish I hadn't dropped it in the tub
16:04:23dizzylizzythe screen was so big and pretty
16:05:18toehserI missed my e200 too when I cracked the screen a while back - but I haven't missed the form factor, I love the clips now and would never go back.
16:05:34dizzylizzytoehser: my screen has been cracked for about a year now
16:05:37dizzylizzyworked just fine
16:05:51dizzylizzyI'm going to miss the scroll wheel most of all I think
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16:09:15dizzylizzywell i'll figure this out later, my wallet was stolen last night and i need to take care of that
16:09:22dizzylizzyjust wish I had music to listen to in waiting rooms
16:10:21dizzylizzyQuick question, what's the status of Opus in Rockbox? I can see that it's partially supported on the site, but performance was pretty stalling on my e200. Any potential for full functionality?
16:11:02toehserYou can always boot to the original firmware by holding the "left" button while booting - if rockbox won't boot, and you're in a waiting room...
16:11:30dizzylizzyit probably can't play vorbis though huh
16:11:32dizzylizzyhmm
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16:18:31toehser1Actually, I think on the clip+ the OF _does_ support vorbis...
16:18:40chrisjjAlexP: "You are assuming, wrongly, that you and you alone knows what a user wants or expects" That assumption is wrong.
16:19:31toehser1The Clips and Fuzes support it natively, but none of the others.
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16:25:58gevaertsdizzylizzy: if you're talking about an e200v1, the CPU in the clip+ is a *lot* faster\
16:33:06kugelPurlingNayuki: in what way is USB broken?
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16:35:10PurlingNayukiOn Windows 8 it all seems OK except the empty drive with drive letter
16:35:45PurlingNayukiDouble click it and it told me to insert the disk
16:36:12PurlingNayukiThe same on Windows 7 and 8.1.
16:37:28PurlingNayukiI didn't test OSX and Linux but it seems that we don't need more tests to confirm this
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