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#rockbox log for 2014-03-12

00:00:03alexbobpone of the best things about the old fuze was being able to really quickly select things in menus in rockbox
00:00:06kugelperhaps one possibility would be to allocate these fixed allocs always from the front, moving normal allocations upwards
00:01:01alexbobppamaury_: also I have to press closer to the center than I'd like to (since I fatfinger it a lot) when I use the directions other than center... is that a hardware limitation where the touchable area isn't very big?
00:01:33pamaury_it's quite non trivial, we don't have the framework to handle touchpads except from a device with keys (contrary to touchscreen) so someone would have to write the code.
00:02:21alexbobpdid the fuze clicky wheel require a lot of custom code? does it just turn a certain amount of wheel turn into a keystroke?
00:03:10pamaury_yes, button wheels accounts for a nontrivial amount of code in the button subsystem
00:03:20alexbobpoh and the holy grail of silliness would be if there were a little mouse cursor on screen that we can move around and click like a laptop touchpad
00:03:27alexbobpbut I bet nobody wants to code that xD
00:03:39pamaury_alexbobp: the touchpad is divided in a 3x3 grid so it's probably that you are no pressing the touchpad where you expect
00:04:10pamaury_the hardware is not very smart, if you have a large finger, the reported position is just unspecified
00:04:28alexbobpdoes the hardware also have a limited touchable area?
00:04:40alexbobpthose silver lines coming from the center... I seem to have to touch the middle of them rather than the edges
00:04:43pamaury_no, except on the far borders
00:05:32pamaury_hum, that sounds funny
00:05:34alexbobpactually I have a lot of leeway with left and right
00:05:41alexbobpI can be almost on the edges of the device
00:05:46alexbobpbut up and down are harder for me to hit
00:07:45pamaury_hum, except if the hardware is different, I don't see how it's possible, I mean it's mathematically impossible, the touchable area is really divide in a 3x3 grid in the driver. Have you tried to play with the sensitivity ?
00:08:30wodz414 files changed, 10805 insertions(+), 10110 deletions(-) against g#326 so far. That is by no means the most massive rewrite I did
00:08:32fs-bluebot3Gerrit review #326 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/326 : 3ELF loader for plugins/codecs by Marcin Bukat
00:09:11pamaury_you can have some debug information in System > Debug > HW Info > target, press center, it will display what is detected by the touchpad
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00:10:39pamaury_if you can reach the screen, write down all the info and poke me
00:11:03pamaury_(also don't tell me it's crashing when you press power to exit it, I know)
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00:16:32pamaury_I need to go, I'll be back tomorrow
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11:02:45pixelmapamaury: what's "Robkox"? It sounds dangerous ;)
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11:59:23pamaurypixelma: indeed ^^
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12:03:13[Saint]Depends who Rob is and what his intentions are I guess. :)
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12:34:23Guest12921Hello, has anyone experienced a problem of not-being-able-to-play-back-from-where-it-stopped with opus files ?
12:34:45Guest12921I'm using a Sansa Fuze v2 btw
12:35:31Guest12921and the problem happens only when you turn the device off from the Play screen, if you turn it off from the menu screen, it works fine
12:36:57Guest12921and if you turn if off from the playlist screen, works fine too
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16:24:08copperpamaury: the Fuze+ has shipped
16:24:24copperyou should get it within 48 hours
16:24:27copperbbl
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16:31:13pamaurythanks, I hope I'll be able to fix the problem
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18:14:15wodzkugel: (log) if you are interested I dumped my current work to g#326
18:14:18fs-bluebot3Gerrit review #326 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/326 : 3ELF loader for plugins/codecs by Marcin Bukat
18:20:14pamaurywodz: why are there two copies of elfload.c ? are they the same ?
18:20:33saratogawhat does the ELF loader enable?
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18:22:44wodzsaratoga: dynamically allocated pluginbuf/codecbuf, possibility to split some parts of the core into loaded-on-demand modules
18:22:54saratoganeat
18:25:05wodzpamaury: firmware/elfload.c is actual loader used by rockbox. utils/elfloader/ is external utility to analyze relocation and symbols resolution. It is sort of emulator. It outputs binary images of relocated elfs so it is possible to analyze with IDA/objdump what it actually does
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18:26:57pamauryI see, wouldn't it be possible to have the same code and have some glue to just compile it for testing only (like fat code)
18:28:55wodzpamaury: Maybe but it would be complicated. One thing is that you can analyze big endian elf on regular PC.
18:29:47wodzpamaury: Anyway this is just a hacky tool to help me debugging
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18:58:07tbx1024Where could i get some information on the Apple Accessory Protocol on iPod classic (7G)?
18:59:24saratogawhat information are you looking for?
18:59:55tbx1024i'm a complete beginner to this stuff, so some general information would be appreciated :)
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19:00:12saratogawell almost nothing is known about it
19:00:18saratogadoes that help ?
19:00:31tbx1024that's something :)
19:01:04tbx1024and where could i get information on AAP for previous generations?
19:01:27saratogawhat information are you looking for?
19:02:01tbx1024well, basics
19:02:51pamauryI know some IAP spec was leaked some time ago but it's from 2007 so I don't know how useful it is
19:03:25tbx1024would you know where i could get this specification?
19:04:28saratogaits probably not useful unless you want to work on improving protocol support in older ipods
19:05:04pamaurysearch for iPod_Accessory_Protocol_Std_Spec_R30 on google, or PM me so I can send it to you
19:05:09tbx1024being a complete beginner that might give an idea on how it looks like
19:05:14tbx1024ok thank you very much
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20:29:50***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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20:36:58copperlebellium: can you give me a link to your photograph showing your entire DAP collection again?
20:37:21copperyou linked to it here a while ago, but I can't find it in my logs
20:38:11[Saint]Isn't it in his <insert_audiophile_forum_here> sig?
20:38:18copperhmm
20:38:20*copper checks
20:38:30lebelliumhttps://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Arz2DypmySvndE01WVZTM2poemxVTzk1dVRsV0VRbmc&usp=sharing ?
20:38:38lebelliumthere is a pic below
20:38:42lebelliumbut not up to date
20:38:55copperthat's the one :)
20:39:05coppermeh
20:39:20copperI can't select it to open it in a new tab, or zoom in
20:39:49[Saint]Ohhhhh man...what is that nasty looking pocket watch thing?
20:39:54[Saint]The round one.
20:40:03[Saint]That's just...man. Wow.
20:40:06lebellium[Saint]: the most exclusive player ever? :)
20:40:23lebellium[Saint]: http://www.anythingbutipod.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71041
20:40:31[Saint]Thanks.
20:41:48copperdo you mind linking to the original pic?
20:42:01lebelliumcopper: I'm looking for it
20:42:14[Saint]Oh God...the case.
20:42:30[Saint]"Lets make a pocket watch look like a baseball...yeah...that'll be awesome!"
20:43:03[Saint]Glad that didn't catch on.
20:43:07*[Saint] shudders
20:43:21coppergod
20:43:30copperthat Google Docs page is HTML hell
20:43:49[Saint]Yeah its fun huh.
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20:45:01copperbleh
20:45:05coppergoogle images doesn't have it
20:46:30lebelliumcopper: DSC00664.JPG
20:46:38lebelliumheh
20:46:51 Quit ii_ (Remote host closed the connection)
20:46:57lebelliumhttps://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7z2DypmySvnUEQ5WWJDMkJVTDA/edit?usp=sharing
20:48:20coppero/
20:48:24copperthanks!
20:48:34copperhaha
20:52:09lebelliumI still didn't buy the Clip Sport for the collection :S
20:52:48*[Saint] can think of a more exclusive DAP
20:52:53[Saint](lebellium trolling)
20:52:57lebelliumhehe
20:53:02[Saint]1st gen Lyre.
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20:53:11[Saint]You'll likely never dig one of those up. :)
20:53:34[Saint](and its a tiny piece of failed good intentions and Rb history)
20:54:04lebelliumI covered the progress quite well on my french website generationmp3.com at the time
20:54:09lebelliumit's a pity it failed
20:54:41 Join ii_ [0] (~ii@78.24.28.186)
20:54:42lebelliumhttp://mp3.generationmp3.com/2009/08/25/lyre-project-baladeur-mp3-specialement-concu-pour-rockbox/
20:55:49[Saint]Too French for me at 9am. ;)
20:56:23lebelliumjust look at the pictures like kids \o/
21:00
21:00:54copper[Saint]: what failed?
21:00:59copperwas it ever produced?
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21:01:45[Saint]copper: mostly it was a cost/production thing.
21:02:02[Saint]It ended up being massively expensive to produce tiny numbers of an inferior product.
21:02:21coppermaybe it would work as a Kickstarter project, like Pono!
21:02:51[Saint]I sincerely doubt it.
21:03:25[Saint]None of the various attempts at Lyre have come close to reality, frankly, because its a terrible idea.
21:03:26copperwell, the Pono kickstarter initiative is a big hit
21:03:37 Join rela [0] (~x@pdpc/supporter/active/rela)
21:03:48copperthey reached their target in less that 24 hours, and they already have doubled it
21:04:36 Join ikeboy [0] (~ikeboy@ool-435622d3.dyn.optonline.net)
21:04:42copperit has benefitted from huge backing though
21:04:49coppererm
21:04:51[Saint]To cut a long story short, this was going to produce a niche player that was twice the size and twice the cost of anything else on the market, on the back of "openness".
21:04:54coppercelebrity endorsement
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21:27:22MrFritzleVote for it ! http://www.head-fi.org/t/709612/would-you-like-to-have-rockbox-on-x3-and-would-you-pay
21:27:53lebelliumjust reading the URL "and would you pay", I won't click :)
21:30:23MrFritzlebecause of fear that the click will charge your account ?
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21:36:29Guest12921I don't know the x3, but once my sansa fuze is dead, I would pay for any rockbox-compatible device that has a memory card reader
21:37:15MrFritzleGo for the clip zip+
21:39:47[Saint]I don't want to use any port initiated by cash gains.
21:40:04[Saint]I want to know the developer is working on a project because they want to.
21:40:11[Saint]Not because of a dollar sign.
21:40:26[Saint]This drastically affects the quality of work and the dedication of the author.
21:40:36Guest12921MrFritzle: I hope the Creative Zen port will be ready till then :p
21:41:14[Saint]Donate to rockbox.org, by all means, but paying for a port seems wrong in so many ways.
21:41:24gevaerts[Saint]: there still wouldn't be automatic acceptance of the port in the tree
21:41:32[Saint]Right.
21:42:35gevaertsAlso, keep in mind that the amount raised would most likely be in the "a nice present" range, but *far* from market prices for developer hours
21:42:54[Saint]MrFritzle: Here's the reality of it - money almost certainly won't make a difference.
21:43:00MrFritzleSo for me its only a theoratical questions, it either opens FiiO to Rockbox than Rockbox to a Cash Cow :)
21:43:19Guest12921[Saint]: Do you realize the quantity of code in big free software project that is here because people were paid to write it ?
21:43:21 Join Strife89 [0] (~Strife89@adsl-98-80-237-172.mcn.bellsouth.net)
21:43:33[Saint]The developer needs to A: think its a good idea. B: have the hardware. And C: Have the time to be able to do so.
21:44:11[Saint]Guest12921: Sure, but I also think it needs to align itself with the ideals of the project in question.
21:44:17[Saint]And this...doesn't (IMO).
21:44:22gevaertsWhy not?
21:44:29MrFritzleHey! it was only about the questions. You do the best work and i love it !!!
21:44:48Guest12921[Saint]: as long as the code is free-licensed, and everybody can hack on it, I don't see the problem
21:45:17[Saint]gevaerts: How many other bounties have been claimed? Always its the same thing "developers work on what they want to".
21:45:19gevaertsIf someone is paid to work on rockbox, whether it's a port or some other feature, that's perfectly fine, but they obviously won't get a free pass through reviews and other stuff
21:45:42gevaerts[Saint]: most bounties are *very* far from "paid work"
21:45:59copperalso, why not the more recent X5?
21:46:13gevaertsA port is hundreds of hours of work, and people capable of doing it can get $100+ an hour as contractors
21:46:40gevaertscopper: there is support for the X5 in rockbox, *unless* you specify the manufacturer :)
21:46:41MrFritzleX5 is to expenisve
21:46:55coppergevaerts: same manufacturer as the X3, FiiO
21:47:13 Nick scorche|1h is now known as scorche|sh (~scorche@rockbox/administrator/scorche)
21:47:36[Saint]MrFritzle: If the X5 is too expensive, you might have to reconsider how much you're willing to spend paying a developer to look into this.
21:47:42gevaertscopper: well, nobody has specified that this was the *fiio* x3 :)
21:47:47[Saint]Because, its gonna be expensive.
21:47:59coppergevaerts: it was specified in the thread that was linked and which sparked the discussion
21:48:15[Saint]Pfffffffft! Reading threads. Bah.
21:48:35gevaertscopper: yes, I know, but if there's potential confusion it pays to be clear :)
21:49:18coppersure
21:49:39*gevaerts holds his X5L just to make a point :)
21:49:48copperI'd totally lust after a Rockboxed FiiO X5
21:50:29MrFritzleWill it really be 100+ of hours to port it to the FiiO X3 ? (...maybe X5 is same architecture)
21:50:54lebelliumwhy the hell fiio named its player "x5" while there is already a famous X5 by another manufacturer...
21:50:57copper"X5 utilizes the Ingenics 4760B dual-core 600MHz CPU"
21:51:07copperlebellium: which one?
21:51:20lebelliumCowon
21:51:26gevaertsMrFritzle: I have no idea, but my guess would actually be higher than that, yes
21:51:39copper"PCM1792A as DAC"
21:52:32gevaertsMrFritzle: so at contractor prices, you're talking about tens of thousands of dollars, which means that if that's what you mean by "pay for", you need a lot of those $30 donators
21:52:40lebelliumCowon X5 is a very famous player among the mp3 players enthusiasts. Naming another player X5 years later is really stupid
21:54:06MrFritzleBut with touch and i hat touch, sorry
21:54:11MrFritzlehate
21:54:34[Saint]Hahahaha...better not look at any modern device,then.
21:54:53lebelliumClip Sport is a modern device, no touch \o:
21:55:07[Saint](modern devices worth owning. ;))
21:55:08ZincAlloythat's retro :D
21:55:08gevaerts[Saint]: looking is fine, it's touching that's the problem :)
21:55:13[Saint]:)
21:55:18copperwhat touch
21:55:20gevaertslebellium: it's a *new* device. It's not modern :)
21:55:21MrFritzle...so the Ipod classic 7G is at the moment the best with rb, for me!!!
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21:55:43MrFritzlewithout touch
21:55:45copperthe X3 and X5 don't have touch screens or touch pads
21:55:53[Saint]Just a shame the port is dead in the water.
21:55:53gevaertslebellium: considering what I understand about its innards, it's positively antique :)
21:55:56MrFritzleyepp but less buttons
21:56:03lebelliumgevaerts: you got a point :)
21:56:17ZincAlloycool. any germanium transistors inside? :D
21:56:27copperthe X5 has five buttons and a scroll wheel
21:56:44MrFritzlex3 has 6 Buttons & Hold
21:57:19ZincAlloythings are already getting confusing with the two X5s :D
21:57:41gevaertsZincAlloy: almost certainly!
21:57:45copperlet's refer to them as the FX3 and FX5
21:57:47MrFritzleLets make it FX5 & CX5, Ok
21:57:47wodzI can't get the context but AFAIK fiio was very reluctant to support porting rockbox
21:57:48copper(FiiO X5)
21:57:53copper;D
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21:58:09copperwodz: why?
21:58:25ZincAlloygevaerts: that antique and primitive? I should build my own :D
21:58:45[Saint]ZincAlloy: talk to the Lyre guys. :)
21:58:57gevaertsAh, an actual porter :)
21:58:59MrFritzleThere Software is sill buggy and the market is open for them, ...but only with a better software
21:59:11gevaertswodz: how many hours would you guess a typical port is?
21:59:29*[Saint] happens to think that purpose-built DAPs are a dying market.
22:00
22:00:07MrFritzlesorry, their
22:00:10copperWe know.
22:00:11wodzgevaerts: That strongly depends on the actual hardware and documentation. Reverse engineering is neat but involved process
22:00:57wodzgevaerts: Adding new target for supported platform is different then porting from scratch
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22:01:54wodzanyway jz chipset means MIPS. MIPS port lacks optimizations
22:03:24gevaertsRight, so a lot of work for a decent working port
22:03:30lebelliumis there actually someone motivated for Clip Sport?
22:03:36lebelliumOr not worth it?
22:04:23wodzlebellium: unless someone plays with EJTAG or get r
22:04:32wodzproper documentation the port is unlikely
22:05:21lebelliumok
22:05:42wodzlebellium: The info from atj www about the SoC are very discouraging
22:06:08lebelliumso it requires reverse-engineering?
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22:06:59toehserI would have purchased one and tried to help... until I learned it doesn't have a microphone. I'm Zip forever I guess.
22:07:15wodzlebellium: Based on the info from www the device has too little ram to run rockbox. There are doubts that this info is accurate.
22:07:49lebelliumwodz: yeah, but some people said it's very unlikey seeing the UI with some nice bitmaps etc
22:08:11wodzlebellium: That is why I say there are doubts
22:08:50wodzlebellium: If they release software update maybe we could say something more
22:09:06 Quit |akaWolf| (Quit: my exit)
22:09:46lebelliumIf I understand correctly, you are not willing to purchase it without further info about the h/w?
22:09:58 Quit MrFritzle (Quit: Verlassend)
22:10:28wodzlebellium: That is not the point - I barely have time to scratch my head not speaking about starting yet another port.
22:11:44lebelliumok
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22:14:18toehserI'll probably never be willing to purchase one, now. I would have loved the larger screen size and tolerated the larger pocket footprint... but I care about the missing microphone.
22:15:30 Join Mongey_ [0] (~Mongey@79.97.125.239)
22:15:55wodzComming back to my elfloader work I'd like to ask for advice. Currently I create sorted hashtable of exported symbols from core and resolve UNK symbols on plugin/codec load against this table. This works pretty well but there are quirks. 1) test_plugin uses private versions of some functions for ci interface. 2) If go for modularization there should be a way to extend this hashtable with entries of exported symbols from loaded modules.
22:17:05wodzThe first issue is easy - create hashtable private functions and search this first before falling back to looking at core hashtable
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22:18:59wodzThe second is easy also as long as we can sacrifice resolving performance. The hashtables can be wrapped in linked list struct and we would then traverse the list which means N times of binary search in every sublist
22:20:00wodzDo you see any other 'easy' solution (I mean other then inserting in one big hashtable and sorting)
22:20:37wodzgevaerts: ^?
22:23:49*gevaerts thinks
22:24:58gevaertsWould that slow down be there in the trivial case of no modularisation?
22:25:12gevaertsI'm trying to figure out if I understand what you mean here :)
22:26:32gevaertsI mean, is it just "try hashtables for various modules until we find a match"?
22:26:53wodzgevaerts: yes
22:27:25wodztrying is rather fast as it is basically bsearch()
22:27:27saratogai don't think the clip sport is a very interesting target unless someone really like MIPS
22:27:53gevaertsI'm guessing it will take a while before we're modular enough for the non-core hashtables to be very big
22:28:24gevaertsSo I suspect the resolving performance sacrifice would be rather small in practice
22:28:44wodzgevaerts: non core hashtables will be small by definition I think
22:29:48gevaertsI can't think of a better way right now
22:29:51***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22:30:31gevaertsBut then I also think your proposal is likely to be fairly performant anyway, and this should be a thing we can replace later if needed
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22:31:40wodzIn theory we can put core hashtable in INIT part (ie this discarded after init) and memcpy() it into buflib allocated block. This would allow to add new entries at the end (when module is loaded) and qsort()
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22:32:13gevaertsYes, but that does add an unloading cost too
22:32:23wodzyes
22:33:45gevaertsI suspect the extra handling needed for that might well be more than the gains a single table give us
22:33:57gevaertsHard to say without actual measurements though
22:34:33gevaertsOf course plugin-type modules won't export anything
22:35:18wodzto give some figures - current complete plugin api is 325 entries for vibe500 (so at most 9 compares to hit)
22:35:27gevaertsTo be honest, right now I'd go for a implementation simplicity
22:36:26gevaertsAnd then worry about deeper modularisation when it actually happens
22:36:50wodzok, so linked list
22:37:32gevaertsI can't think of that many possible modules anyway. Database, maybe
22:37:35gevaertsBut then?
22:37:41wodzradio?
22:37:50gevaertsAh, yes, that one too
22:38:08gevaertsBut then I can't think of too many plugins that depend on those two
22:38:29gevaertsSo the original core search will still find the lot
22:38:41wodzyes
22:38:46gevaertsWhich means that merging the tables would actually slow things down :)
22:39:14wodzhmm, I didn't think this way :-)
22:42:05gevaertsWe could also push the entire playback system out, but that would only benefit radio users and doom players, and both of those don't really need the RAM you save
22:42:55wodzwe would need to port new, more memory hungry game then to justify the idea
22:44:14gevaertsYou said earlier that you didn't have that much free time :)
22:45:08wodzI don't. It happens that on-demand loaded modules are investigated in my regular work so I can justify rockbox-hours :-)
22:46:31gevaertsOh, well done :)
22:48:08wodzbtw, are we going to DevCon this year? It is high time to get decision
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23:00
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23:14:42[Saint]Maybe at DevCon people can talk about "The Last Hoorah" for the Archos'...and, dare I say it, a release.
23:15:03 Quit Mongey (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
23:15:12[Saint](assuming that, in all likelihood, no release would be made prior)
23:15:18lebelliumI'm waiting for v3.14 on my Ondio FM \o/
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23:15:30[Saint]Well...waiting never got anyone anything. ;)
23:15:43lebelliumI noticed that
23:15:51lebelliumI've been here for more than 2 years now
23:15:52lebellium:)
23:16:53[Saint]I'm confident this project has at least one more release left in it.
23:17:12[Saint]I would love to say I'm confident about the future, but, I'm just plain...not.
23:17:13lebelliumthat doesn't sound optimistic
23:18:00[Saint]Well, its no secret that it has been tapering down for the past year.
23:18:09[Saint]More, even.
23:18:24[Saint]Dedicated DAPs just aren't really a thing anymore.
23:18:28lebelliumif you all go on like that with the same motivation, you'll maybe even get me learn to develop and get some things done by myself, really! :P
23:18:38[Saint]And the push to an application kinda failed.
23:19:10[Saint]lebellium: no offence man, but, if that was going to happen it would've happened long ago.
23:19:35[Saint]Waiting until a project is all but dead to get interested isn;t the greatest move. :)
23:20:26lebelliumyou're probably right
23:21:31lebelliumthe thing is that you don't feel being useful when a project is very active and dozens of people are doing the job right and far better than you would do
23:22:23lebelliumit's only when it's dying that you may change your mind
23:22:25[Saint]Depends what one classes as useful.
23:22:41[Saint]You seem to like to write, and in many places our documentation is rather lacking.
23:22:47[Saint]Everything helps.
23:25:28lebelliumI agree
23:25:37[Saint]No pressure. Just saying. Useful is subjective.
23:25:45lebelliumand I was actually trying to update the wiki you know :)
23:26:14lebelliumto get at least something up to date about supported targets and their status
23:28:05 Quit ender` (Quit: alias vi=rm -f)
23:29:21[Saint]I have two big wishes, and little time to complete them - I want to: 1 - complete skin engine documentation (in a singular place {we have to incomplete areas where it is documented}); 2 - Give the community an updated default theme for touch and non-touch UI.
23:29:27lebelliumbut "useful" is not as subjective as that. Still recently some people (like chrisjj \o/) were actually pointing out many issues/bugs but without solving them and in the end that was not considered as useful...
23:29:50[Saint]Number 2 there is just...uuuuugh. Jeez. But, I'll ge there one day. Hopefully before interest fully wanes.
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23:31:14[Saint]lebellium: FWIW, the issue wasn't with chrisjj pointing out bugs, it was the manner in which it was done and the pedantic, argumentative, borderline trolling attitude that came withit.
23:31:34gevaerts*borderline*?
23:31:34[Saint]That individual seemed to exist solely to test our patience.
23:31:45[Saint]gevaerts: ...well, yeah, good call.
23:32:30[Saint]Pointing out bugs == good. Being a huge dick about it and testing every single piece of policy == bad.
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