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#rockbox log for 2014-04-29

00:01:51 Join Klarion [0] (~lao@optima3048.o2.carnet.hr)
00:02:51KlarionI have error 'undefined instruction at 0000003c' when I connect it to my PC -sometimes- on my Fuze with latest dev. build.
00:02:54Klarionwhat is that?
00:07:23 Join the-kyle [0] (~kyle@kyle.tk)
00:31:22 Quit akaWolf (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
00:32:23 Join akaWolf [0] (~akaWolf@unaffiliated/akawolf)
00:39:19 Quit saratoga_ (Quit: Page closed)
00:40:18 Quit ender` (Quit: Democracy: the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard.-- H. L. Mencken)
00:41:01 Quit jhMikeS (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
00:42:44 Quit Klarion ()
00:47:32 Quit ZincAlloy (Quit: Leaving.)
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00:52:04 Join akaWolf [0] (~akaWolf@unaffiliated/akawolf)
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01:00
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01:30:43 Join igitoor [0] (igitur@unaffiliated/contempt)
01:34:32 Quit RiD (Quit: A good plan today is better than a perfect plan tomorrow.)
01:57:48***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
03:00
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03:32:14 Join JdGordon [0] (~jonno@ppp118-209-240-102.lns20.mel6.internode.on.net)
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03:32:14 Join JdGordon [0] (~jonno@rockbox/developer/JdGordon)
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03:35:40 Join Strife89 [0] (~Strife89@adsl-98-80-241-113.mcn.bellsouth.net)
03:48:33[Saint]Hmmmmm....
03:49:03[Saint]JdGordon: there's no way to set a config option with a conditional, is there?
03:49:15[Saint]I can only see a way to do it with a touchscreen element.
03:49:52[Saint]I can't, apparently, do %?if<foo,=,bar)<set setting baz 0>
03:51:19[Saint]Hmmmm - yeah, fuck it.
03:51:26[Saint]There's no non-touch version of setting_set
03:51:31JdGordoni dont tihnk you can set config options at all?
03:51:37[Saint]Sure you can.
03:51:55[Saint]setting_set, setting_inc, setting_dec
03:52:04[Saint]all valid touch areas.
03:52:27[Saint]Its not a big deal, I just derped a little as I thought this could be done, but it seems not.
03:53:45[Saint]%T(0,0,-,-,setting_set,volume,0) will set volume to 0, for instance.
03:54:24[Saint]%T(0,0,-,-,setting_inc,volume) will increment one <value> of <setting>.
03:54:26[Saint]yadda yadda.
03:55:15[Saint]But there's not a way to do this with just catching a specific condition, ie. for non-touch devices and/or to fix this guy's issue: http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?action=post;topic=48230.0;last_msg=228019
03:55:59[Saint]He wants to pause on volume == -99dB, which lets face it won;t make it into core because its silly.
03:56:08[Saint]I thought I could handle this in a theme, but apparently not.
03:56:34alexbobpit's pretty silly >_>
03:57:02alexbobpdo screen-off on software hold instead! :D
03:57:04*alexbobp ducks
03:57:43[Saint]....actually, my theme does have a touchscreen software hold.
03:57:50***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
03:57:51[Saint]But, it leaves the screen up. ;)
04:00
04:00:04alexbobpwell I'm just lobbying for this so I can get phone-like behavior on the fuze+
04:00:09[Saint]I like it for RaaA as it means I can leave the screen enabled but don;t have to worry about accidental keypresses, etc.
04:00:28alexbobpeven though the touch panel is separate from the screen, having it respond when the screen is off is very weird
04:00:28[Saint]Its pretty corny, but we can indeed do a touchscreen softlock.
04:00:37[Saint]We can also allow arbitrary touch areas to be active while locked.
04:00:50alexbobpI believe I use your theme and its touchscreen softlock on RaaA :P
04:00:54alexbobpor rather... have it... but don't use the softlock because I turn my phone screen off for that xD
04:01:36[Saint]Aha :)
04:01:36JdGordoncant we just use the mute button to pause?
04:01:36alexbobpI have a better idea, let's use the pause button to mute!
04:01:40alexbobpand rewind can fastforward, and fastforward can make me a sammich
04:03:06[Saint]JdGordon: that's fucking stupid.
04:03:12[Saint]Sorry, but, it is.
04:04:19[Saint]My reply addresses this:
04:04:23[Saint]"I had a brief look, thinking I could handle this for you from userspace with a theme, but it seems that its not possible to set a config value with a conditional statement, it (rather annoyingly) needs to be handled with a touch area, and that makes it absolutely useless for you as if you're going to manipulate a touch area, it may as well just be the pause button."
04:07:15JdGordonwhy is tha stupid?
04:11:56 Join pixelma_ [0] (pixelma@rockbox/staff/pixelma)
04:11:56 Quit pixelma (Disconnected by services)
04:11:58 Nick pixelma_ is now known as pixelma (pixelma@rockbox/staff/pixelma)
04:12:08 Join amiconn_ [0] (quassel@rockbox/developer/amiconn)
04:12:08 Quit amiconn (Disconnected by services)
04:12:11 Nick amiconn_ is now known as amiconn (quassel@rockbox/developer/amiconn)
04:13:17[Saint]JdGordon: because it completely breaks mute.
04:16:07[Saint]JdGordon: mute is for when you want to disable sound but *not* pause it.
04:16:45[Saint](additionally, this wouldn't fix the issue that OP describes, as he doesn't want to have to look at the device or unlock it)
04:17:34[Saint]Having mute pause playback seems fucking weird, as you would also have to have it re-initiate playback.
04:17:58[Saint]...at which point, you've just made a convoluted clone of a pre-existing touch area (pause).
04:18:27[Saint]alexbobp: You, sir, just became my ideal man.
04:19:16[Saint]You must've been using this theme for *ages*, can you tell me what you like about it, what you dislike about it, what its missing, what is right, what is wrong, etc. etc.
04:19:22[Saint]alexbobp: ^
04:20:35[Saint]alexbobp: I am currently in the process of rebuilding a modern re-imagining of this theme, if I could bounce ideas off you and use you for feedback, it would be magic.
05:00
05:07:13 Join cmhobbs [0] (~cmhobbs@fsf/member/cmhobbs)
05:13:37 Join ygrek [0] (~user@108.59.6.97)
05:19:39alexbobp[Saint]: to be honest I haven't used rockbox on my phone that much recently because I've mostly just been running a podcast app, but I would love to be bounced ideas off of!
05:19:42alexbobpnow is not the ideal time though
05:20:43 Quit kuldeepdhaka (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
05:25:04 Quit amizraa4 (Remote host closed the connection)
05:31:43[Saint]alexbobp: If you recall anything that pissed you off, anything that I could've done but didn't, anything I did do but shouldn't, etc. please let me know.
05:32:27[Saint]Strife89: same goes for you
05:32:38alexbobpI didn't like the lack of momentum in scrolling lists, is that somthing a theme can do?
05:32:45[Saint](with either my cabie implementation, or git head's cabbie implementation)
05:32:49alexbobpthe main issues were lack of android integration that I can't really blame anyone for
05:33:01*[Saint] nods
05:33:03alexbobpsince it's a port of an existing firmware that's expected to take time :P
05:33:31[Saint]IIUC, we'd potentially get in trouble with momentum and bouncing in lists.
05:33:46[Saint]Apple "invented" that, and they're protective of it.
05:33:46alexbobplet me get the latest rasher build and I'll just listen to my podcasts with rockbox for a while
05:33:51alexbobpinstead of beyondpod
05:34:02alexbobpugh really?
05:34:06 Quit TheSeven (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
05:34:10*alexbobp weeps about patent trollage
05:34:17alexbobpbut android already has it everywhere
05:34:17[Saint]Yeah, that's why Android was forced to drop it.
05:34:24alexbobpo_o
05:34:27[Saint]*had*, not has. :)
05:34:38alexbobpo_O
05:34:42alexbobpwhen was this?
05:35:00[Saint]Honeycomb was the last to have bouncy lists, iirc.
05:35:03alexbobpdidn't they just have to slightly tweak their physics math?
05:35:06[Saint]So...ages ago.
05:35:47alexbobpI don't think they totally did away with momentum
05:35:59[Saint]There's a very, very, very slight (1px, I shit you not) bounce in Android lists now, but I suspect that was added as some form of "fuck you".
05:36:06 Join TheSeven [0] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven)
05:37:47[Saint]It is possible to fling scrolling lists in Rockbox, but its nowhere near as fluid, I agree.
05:38:26[Saint]I doubt there's much we could do about that without dropping the Rockbox UI completely and going full-native.
05:40:04[Saint]Playing with list accelleration settings for your particular device may prove to be fruitful.
05:40:30[Saint](in Rockbox, I mean)
05:43:36 Join kuldeepdhaka [0] (~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka)
05:51:16 Quit [Saint] (Remote host closed the connection)
05:52:19 Join [Saint] [0] (~saint@rockbox/staff/saint)
05:57:52***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
05:59:05alexbobp[Saint]: oh the bounce isn't really what I care about, just the flinging
05:59:19alexbobpI highly recommend going native for ui stuff if possible
05:59:31alexbobpis the flinging in rockbox recent?
05:59:47JdGordonnative ui is the ultimate goal
05:59:55JdGordonand will get there.. one way or another
06:00
06:01:56alexbobpyay!
06:09:19JdGordonwell, thats been the aim for the last few years anyway :p
06:15:41 Join tertu [0] (~tertu@143.44.70.199)
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07:00
07:01:38[Saint]alexbobp: not recent, no.
07:01:42[Saint]Its always been there.
07:02:05[Saint]At least as far as I remember.
07:02:18[Saint]So, ~5 years of "always".
07:03:16 Quit Strife89 (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
07:12:52alexbobphuh ok, it musta been really weird :D
07:14:33[Saint]you can get the lists scrolling pretty fast if you get your rhythm on.
07:17:01[Saint]Out of interest, what resolution(s) {is|are} your device(s)?
07:19:16alexbobp480x800
07:23:20 Join amizraa4 [0] (~amizraa@gateway/tor-sasl/amizraa)
07:28:55[Saint]excellent. that's the resolution I'm working with as a base to figure things out - I figure it targeted a lot of devices at the moment, and its going to be trivial to scale things up or down or move them around for different orientations (landscape native device for instance) once I figure things out.
07:34:21copperI thought RaaA was dead?
07:34:32[Saint]wait...what?
07:42:32copperis anyone still working on it?
07:42:52 Quit tertu (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
07:47:35JdGordonsure
07:50:42coppermy mistake
07:50:50coppergoing native sounds like a lot of work though
07:51:44copperI don't even know how that would work wrt theming
07:51:48JdGordonwell the goal is to make the rockbox playback engine a seperate library so anything can be a frontend to it
07:52:00JdGordonthemeing would probably get thrown out tbh
07:52:11copperah :D
07:52:53 Quit ygrek (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
07:53:13JdGordonThough if/when that happens it would be pretty simple to make a html based ui which could be as themeable as you wanted
07:53:51copperyay CSS?
07:54:11JdGordonsimpler than the skin engine surely :p
07:54:57copperdepends on the level of implementation
07:55:13copperunless you're thinking of using a full blown implementation from some other project
07:55:30coppersome libre engine
07:55:44JdGordonthe web browser... just connect to localhost:1234
07:55:56copperoh
07:56:20copperuh
07:56:28copperI'm not sure that would be super convenient
07:56:57copperthat means no lock screen widget, for one
07:57:23JdGordonI'm not saying thats what will happen, just one possibility
07:57:44copperand a fair amount of manipulation to bring up the browser and sort through open tabs, making sure not to close the RaaA tab by mistake
07:57:54***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
07:57:54[Saint]we'd use sdl, surely?
07:58:12copperwho's this Shirley character
07:58:21[Saint]you
07:58:33JdGordon[Saint]: if libraaa was finished, no, on android you wouldnt use sdl
07:58:41*[Saint] does the 'neener neener neener' dance
07:59:04[Saint]I meant for desktop
07:59:14[Saint]sorry if that wasn't clear.
07:59:46JdGordonyou might, you might use qt, or WPF, or whatever
07:59:52JdGordonthere owuldnt be a "rockbox" anymore!
08:00
08:00:01JdGordon(this will never happen tghouh so dont worry :p )
08:00:13[Saint]Hush you.
08:01:18 Join tertu [0] (~tertu@143.44.70.199)
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08:02:19 Join kugel [0] (~kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel)
08:10:28 Quit tertu (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
08:19:49kugel[Saint]: why would you want to use sdl
08:20:14kugelit's rather low level and has 0 widgets
08:24:11 Join ender` [0] (krneki@foo.eternallybored.org)
08:49:13 Quit kuldeepdhaka (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
08:57:12 Join einhirn [0] (~Miranda@bsod.rz.tu-clausthal.de)
09:00
09:05:48 Join Zagor [0] (~bjst@2a01:2b0:3041:3018:2677:3ff:fea3:3ef4)
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09:05:48 Join Zagor [242] (~bjst@rockbox/developer/Zagor)
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09:27:48[Saint]Wow...bar tags can get really really long...
09:28:01[Saint]%pb(30,27,420,6,backdrop,420x6px-Scrubber-Bar-Backdrop.bmp,image,420x6px-Scrubber-Bar.bmp,slider,60x60px-Scrubber-Handle-Unfocused.bmp)
09:28:02[Saint]lol
09:31:42copperhmm
09:32:02copperyou can put 420x6px-Scrubber-Bar.bmp as the first option after the coordinates and drop the "image" parameter
09:32:44copperto make it slightly shorter!
09:33:05copper" To maintain backward compatibility a filename can be given as the first option instead of using the 'image, ' tuple. "
09:33:18[Saint]Oh, right - the first tupple accepted can be the filename. right.
09:33:21[Saint]I forgot that.
09:33:51[Saint]I guess its 'better' to use this super long version, as a teaching instance.
09:34:25copperYes, Master.
09:34:28[Saint]Its 'the new way' we should be using, I guess.
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09:34:57 Join jhMikeS [0] (~jethead71@rockbox/developer/jhMikeS)
09:35:12copperuse SASL, people
09:35:22[Saint]I ripped off the AOSP 4.4 scrubber *sooooo* bad
09:35:40[Saint]Its pretty much identical. Meh.
09:36:28copperor cert identification
09:36:58[Saint]http://imgur.com/a/jSQEe
09:37:12[Saint]actually click the preview images, as imgur seems to butcher it.
09:37:13copperhttps://freenode.net/certfp/
09:37:43[Saint]Oh, hmmm, nope - Imgur is just butchering it.
09:37:46[Saint]bah.
09:38:01[Saint]WHy do you hate alpha channels in bitmaps, imgur, why?
09:38:08copperimgur shouldn't touch your uploads
09:38:15copperyou uploaded a BMP?
09:38:27copperI see a PNG
09:38:56[Saint]yeah, they're bitmaps.
09:39:21[Saint]imgur just ...I have no idea.
09:39:30copperuploading BMP files makes puppies cry
09:39:36copperhttp://imgur.com/dOId8PP
09:39:39[Saint]It seems to choke on bitmaps with alphas.
09:39:39copperno butchering there
09:39:44copperPNG with alpha channel
09:40:33[Saint]I can't be arsed converting it now just to reupload it.
09:40:46[Saint]the moment is gone, I lost my motivation. ;p
09:41:08[Saint]imgur should just not be a giant douche.
09:41:14copperwhat
09:41:25copperyou're the douche for uploading uncompressed images!
09:41:34[Saint]bah.
09:41:39[Saint]everyone loves bitmaps.
09:41:50copperwhat is this, 1995?
09:41:52copper:P
09:41:57[Saint]Yes.
09:42:12[Saint]I'm still young then.
09:42:19[Saint]That'd be awesome. ;)
09:42:41copperspeaking of 1995
09:42:50copperhere's a nice animated GIF for you http://caudec.net/rockbox/Basta-render-animated.gif/
09:43:39[Saint]make a webm
09:43:43copperapparently no-one supports either MNG or APNG natively
09:43:44[Saint]you could add sound!
09:43:48copperoh dear
09:44:03[Saint]make a webm on gyfcat
09:44:19copperI only know lolcats
09:44:43[Saint]http://gfycat.com/
09:45:05[Saint]you can direct video upload to webm
09:45:22copperwhy though
09:45:24copperGIF works
09:45:37[Saint]sync the audio with the progress bar! :)
09:45:57copperwoah, I'm having a major déjà-vu here
09:46:23[Saint]?
09:46:47coppera glitch in the Matrix, probably
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09:57:58***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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11:58:02***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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13:58:05***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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14:00
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14:50:23[Saint]Man I love negative viewport parameters
14:50:46[Saint]...but they're so non-obvious to a newcomer trying to learn the syntax
14:52:21 Quit pystar89 (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
14:52:22coppernegative as in, off-screen coordinates?
14:53:03[Saint]No, they don't end up offscreen, negative params wrap.
14:53:53[Saint]So if I wanted to stick a 100px high viewport to the botttom of the screen (of arbitrary height), I could just do "%V(-100,-,-,...)
14:54:01 Join amayer [0] (~amayer@mail.weberadvertising.com)
14:54:29[Saint]Ditto for aligning items to the right of the screen.
14:56:11[Saint](You can give negative params for x,y - but not for width,height, obviously.
14:56:14[Saint])
14:56:50copperah
14:56:53[Saint]Otherwise the DAP would implode on itself, cause a black hole, and shower you with Hawking Radiation.
14:56:54copperdidn't know that was possible
14:56:56coppergood to know
14:57:01[Saint]Its bloody handy.
14:57:21copperwell I don't know what Hawking Radiation is, so it's OK, I suppose
14:57:22[Saint]Glad to be of service to your enlightenment, good Sir.
14:57:39coppereh
14:57:45copperthat's actually gonna be super useful for me
14:57:56[Saint]*huzzah*
14:58:04[Saint]Great.
14:58:30coppergah
14:58:33copperit's on the wiki
14:58:38copperI just never read it
14:58:51copperserves me right
15:00
15:01:19[Saint]In theory, using this method, as long as you didn't use a backdrop bitmap image you could make a theme that was resolution agnostic
15:01:52copperhow will the theme uploader know?
15:02:10[Saint]It wouldn't.
15:02:13[Saint]That's an issue.
15:02:35[Saint]You would still need to target a specific device, despite technically not needing to.
15:02:35copperer, and it supports percentages too
15:02:37coppergeez
15:02:41*[Saint] nods
15:02:42copperI'm such a noob
15:02:53[Saint]Happens to the best of us.
15:03:08[Saint]You mainly work with small screens, non-touch.
15:03:15[Saint]SO I'm not /too/ surprised.
15:03:33copper"The width and height values may also be negative which means almost the same as above (e.g. %V(50,-,-50,-,-) will go from 50 to 170 on a 220-pixel display). "
15:03:55[Saint]Oh, I...hmmmm.
15:03:59copperhaha
15:04:08[Saint]That may or may not be true anymore.
15:04:08copperIN YOUR FACE
15:04:11[Saint];)
15:04:28 Quit cmhobbs (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
15:04:41copperI'm gonna have to update my themes later
15:05:24copperusing mirrored coordinates (positive and negative) will actually help with readability
15:05:50[Saint]I think you would really enjoy getting into touchscreen themes.
15:06:07[Saint]The extra levels of complexity it allows is quite amazing.
15:06:17[Saint]Reactive, dynamic themes.
15:06:24copperbut I wouldn't use Rockbox on my phone
15:06:33[Saint]desktop?
15:06:38copperuh?
15:06:39[Saint]always the SDL app.
15:06:50coppernah I'm fine with Quod Libet, thanks
15:06:54[Saint]Oh. Were you not aware?
15:06:57[Saint]Ah.
15:07:19copperI don't really theme for the fun of it
15:07:19*[Saint] shrugs
15:07:33[Saint]I actually thought you did theme for the sake of themeing.
15:07:38[Saint]My mistake
15:07:38copperI make themes because I want something that I really like on the devices that I use daily
15:07:57[Saint]I do it specifically so I can do weird shit and push the limits of the engine.
15:08:04copperthe fun is to end up with a fully working theme that I'm gonna use a lot
15:08:34copperit's an added freedom
15:08:45[Saint]I think I can get simple animations working solely in theme userspace.
15:09:00[Saint](with no additional tags)
15:09:20JdGordonhehe "userspace" :p
15:09:30copperthemerspace
15:10:03[Saint]The way I'm doing it is *fucking* hack, though.
15:10:28[Saint]I have a graphic EQ hidden in a 1x1 viewport to maintain a solid 0.1s refresh rate.
15:10:58[Saint]Tricking the screen into constantly updating to better catch the frames of the animations.
15:13:28[Saint]I wanted an animation for the tab drawer being launched, and it /kinda/ works, but its a giant hack so I sincerely doubt I'll actually include it.
15:13:44[Saint]I may have it in the code walled off with comments for the brave to find, though.
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15:37:16[Saint]Ok - nice, ...ish.
15:37:36[Saint]Oh, crap. Nope.
15:38:06[Saint]Bah. I *really* wish we could have multiple sized album art per screen :-/
15:38:32pixelmado you use touchscreen areas and variables to switch to different "views" and back as you mentioned here IIRC? If so, have you already tried on a real device (not SDL with mouse clicks? I played around doing the same a while ago and had to implement some measures for "debouncing", it works but speaking of unreadable code...
15:38:34[Saint]Then I could have a fancy expanded fullscreen album art view.
15:39:09[Saint]pixelma: clarify "debouncing"?
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15:39:24[Saint]I haven't needed to do anything I consider particularly special.
15:40:10[Saint]If you are using touchscreen variables with a timeout, then that can get tricky if you don't want things to block, yes.
15:40:18[Saint]But it can be avoided.
15:40:52pixelmaI had to add a touch timeout to the area so that I won't switch off things with the same touch I switched them on
15:42:11[Saint]Oh...oh. No. I definitely haven't had that issue.
15:42:12pixelmamaybe there was even more to it
15:42:30[Saint]These types of things shouldn't repeat press.
15:42:38[Saint]It rather sounds like a dodgy touchscreen.
15:43:08[Saint]My 'buttons' don't need such hand holding.
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15:56:30[Saint]gah - aspect ration can really fuck you over.
15:57:33[Saint]spacing and sizing that looks terrific on my massive monitors looks a bit weird on one device, quite weird on another device, and perfectly fine on yet another.
15:57:43[Saint]all using the same resolution theme variant.
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16:01:12[Saint]Lines in my skin code breaking my usual 80 char wide convention make my want to kick puppies.
16:02:53[Saint]IIRC, there is some way to do split lines (even with inline comments) and indentation.
16:03:04[Saint]But I have no idea of the syntax.
16:06:19pixelmacomment out the line ending
16:06:37pixelmaI think it was
16:07:15[Saint]I think it can also parse a linebreak character
16:07:25[Saint]but, I'm not certain.
16:07:31[Saint]I never actually used it.
16:07:46[Saint]I just know its possible to do some form of indentation and split lines.
16:08:01[Saint]but not /how/ to do it. ;)
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