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#rockbox log for 2014-06-05

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00:12:10saratogai guess most of the firmware could be code for whatever weird DSP core it uses (not mips I think?)
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17:01:59copperis there no way do display the total time that Rockbox has been running since the last full recharge, without starting the battbench plugin every time I turn on the device?
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18:58:29copperis it possible to estimate the subjective loudness difference that the compressor plugin parameters will cause?
18:58:34copperon the fly
19:00
19:00:06ZincAlloythat would depend on the music. I guess no.
19:00:17coppersnap.
19:00:26ZincAlloyor maybe if you consider replay gain values
19:00:34copperthat's the idea
19:01:01copperI was thinking of having the DAP (Rockbox) apply Dynamic Range Compression instead of positive Replaygain values that would make the song clip
19:01:18copperinstead of using a negative preamp value and instead of lowering the gain according to peak
19:01:22copperwhich breaks replaygain
19:01:46copperthe amount of DRC applied would bring the song to the replaygain loudness target
19:02:25coppernegative RG value: just apply that
19:02:34copperpositive RG value that won't clip according to peak: just apply that
19:02:53copperpositive RG value that WILL clip according to peak: apply the appropriate amount of compression
19:03:10ZincAlloyis clipping that much of a problem with default replay gain settings?
19:03:17coppermore than you'd think
19:03:21copperhttps://outpost.fr/tmp/s3h.txt
19:03:32copperthis is my collection, sorted by gain
19:03:42 Join y4n [0] (~y4n@unaffiliated/y4ndexx)
19:03:52copperthe preamp value is that which needs to be applied to avoid clipping, according to peak
19:04:06copperand it's not just some oddball classic music recordings
19:04:15copperthere's Supertramp and Vangelis in there
19:04:24copperand Kate Bush (80s recording), etc
19:05:03copperand it can be a problem if your cans aren't sensitive enough (and or if your device's output is too weak, etc)
19:06:30copperapplying a reasonable amount of DRC for the few albums that need it, would neatly solve the maximum loudness problem
19:06:59copperwhile keeping Replaygain's purpose intact
19:06:59ZincAlloyonly few recordings should have positive replay gain values, though
19:07:13copperwhat about gevaerts who listens mostly to classical music?
19:07:34ZincAlloyhe'd need to reduce the pre-amp gain
19:07:35copperI bet he has a ton of recordings with positive gains that will clip
19:07:40copperyes
19:07:53copperwhich is shown in that list I linked to
19:08:02coppersee the preamp value: nearly -5 dB
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19:08:18copperand that reduces the device's maximum loudness by as much
19:08:55copperDAPs are designed for modern, brickwalled music
19:09:11copperand portable, sensitive headphones
19:09:37copperif your gear and tastes stray off the beaten path, you might run into problems
19:09:53ZincAlloyhow on earth can icky thump have a positve gain?
19:09:59coppervinyl rip
19:10:05ZincAlloyah
19:10:28ZincAlloyI guess replay gain doesn't work well on vinyl rips
19:10:33copperI have a few "audiophile" rips in there, not vinyl but MFSL recordings and such
19:10:45ZincAlloythey certainly can look more dynamic than they are
19:10:55ZincAlloythough in this case I bet it's dynamic as fuck
19:10:57copperand also stereo downmixes of 5.1 content
19:11:29copperbut most albums you see with large positive gains are straight up CD rips
19:13:39ZincAlloymost of my non brickwalled cds are around −3dB
19:14:40ZincAlloyeven my copy of Aqualung has a negative replay gain value and that one's really low in volume and loudness
19:15:21copperwhat's your point :P
19:15:37copperI didn't invent the values in that list
19:15:50ZincAlloylooking hard for music that will cause problems :D
19:16:09coppersome people will listen mostly to -12dB pop music, and some people will listen mostly to +3 dB classical music
19:17:07ZincAlloydamn it, the only classical album I have is rated −1.99dB
19:17:20coppergevaerts: yelp!
19:17:44ZincAlloy:D
19:19:27ZincAlloycan't we just have rockbox analyze all replay gain tags to find out the highest safe setting?
19:20:10copperthat's not the point
19:20:13coppermy script does that
19:20:16copperit generated that list
19:20:25ZincAlloythat's one useful script
19:20:25copperbut it doesn't solve the maximum loudness issue
19:20:37copperhttps://outpost.fr/stuff/preamp.sh
19:20:39coppergo nuts
19:20:46copperworks on FLAC and Ogg Vorbis
19:21:05ZincAlloyyou should make that a plugin
19:21:47copperwell
19:21:59copperturns out a "hard limiter" would do pretty much just that.
19:22:12copperor so I've been told just now
19:22:12ZincAlloyyou could always just turn on the compressor and set it to limit only the loudest peaks
19:23:29copperhow?
19:23:37copperI have zero understanding of its parameters
19:24:06copperand I doubt many Rockbox users have any either
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19:24:59copperif I can make this work and just write a forum post about it, I'll consider myself happy
19:25:04ZincAlloyyou wouldn't want the threshold very low
19:25:33copperthe threshold is the amplitude at which the compressor starts doing its magic?
19:25:40ZincAlloyexactly
19:25:49copperwell DERP
19:26:07copperhmmm
19:26:08copperwait
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19:26:19ZincAlloythe tricky thing is: you'll need to bring up the makeup gain
19:26:24copperwhat does it act on: the signal BEFORE applying RG gain, or AFTER?
19:26:46copperis it at the very end of the signal processing chain?
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19:26:48ZincAlloygood question
19:27:03ZincAlloyit would have to be after to make this work
19:27:10copperwell yeah
19:27:33copperactually it only makes any sense if it's at the end of the chain
19:27:38ZincAlloystill: setting the makeup gain will be tricky because it can introduce more clipping
19:27:45copperotherwise, the other DSP functions would fuck it up
19:27:58copperwhat makeup gain?
19:28:04copperlots of mascara?
19:28:23coppermakes the signal sexier? :D
19:29:09ZincAlloymakeup gain is there to make the compressed (=softer) signal louder again
19:29:29copperwhy?
19:29:33copperI mean, what for?
19:30:01ZincAlloyif you reduce the peaks, you have headroom to bring the rest up in level
19:30:30copperI have trouble figuring out the implications of this
19:30:43copperdoesn't that completely fuck up Replaygain?
19:31:10copperwhere's saratoga when you need him
19:31:17ZincAlloygood point. it probably does
19:31:22copperthat guy basically knows EVERYTHING
19:31:31copperfreak of nature
19:32:14ZincAlloyoh, makeup gain only has an automatical setting
19:32:29copperyeah
19:32:32copperoff / automatic
19:32:52copperwhich is french for: "fuck knows what it's doing: it's pure MAGIC"
19:34:10copperI'm also confused by the threshold setting
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19:34:27copperfor the purpose I've been talking about, wouldn't "off" be the appropriate setting?
19:34:32copperer
19:34:39copperdoes "off" mean "0 dBFS"?
19:35:01copperno
19:35:06copperderp
19:35:14copper"off" means "no DRC"
19:35:46copperwait
19:36:05copperif I'm understanding this correctly, the compressor plugin is designed to make quiet content louder
19:36:12copperit's not designed to reduce peaks
19:36:20ZincAlloythat's what a compressor does
19:36:42ZincAlloyin order to make things louder, you need to bringt the peaks down
19:36:53copperyeah but it doesn't look like it will prevent clipping
19:36:57ZincAlloywatch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91qs3fux5HY
19:38:03copperI mean
19:38:21ZincAlloyyeah, you'd have to bring the peaks down before replay gain is applied
19:38:38copperhow do I relate the Threshold setting to the amount by which content will clip?
19:39:25copperand how do I make it NOT act on content that will NOT clip?
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19:42:20ZincAlloyno, wait. you wouldn't. I was getting confused
19:46:31ZincAlloya compression meter would be really useful to check what it does
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19:47:30copperdo you know who wrote it?
19:47:35copperthe compressor
19:47:41ZincAlloyno idea.
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19:48:08copperlet me read the manual again
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19:49:44copperhmmm
19:50:41copperif I'm reading this right, makup gain should be set to "auto", and "threshold" to the lowest preamp gain that my script calculated (-4.76 dB, rounded down to -6 dB)
19:50:49coppersomeone please confirm
19:51:36copperhmmm
19:51:47copperI guess I could record it and check for clipping manually
19:52:18ZincAlloyI think the compressor plugin is pre-replay gain
19:52:20copperI still need to know when the compressor DSP is applied though
19:52:41copperugh
19:52:47copperI guess that would still work?
19:52:50copperwait no
19:52:53copperthat can't be
19:53:17copperif it's pre-replaygain, and "makeup" is set to "auto", which makes it as loud as possible (0 dBFS), a positive gain would make it clip
19:53:23copperthat would be… faulty
19:53:34ZincAlloyI set it to −9dB and it fucks up green day's american idiot (-10.69dB) noticeably
19:55:06copperI guess I could make a simple test with a 0 dBFS sine way
19:55:07copperwave
19:55:16coppertomorrow though
19:55:23*copper writes it down
19:57:32ZincAlloya positive gain won't make it clip in the case you describe as long as you set replay gain pre-amplification accordingly
19:57:49copperI _don't_ want to do that!
19:57:53copperthat's the point
19:58:03copperuh
19:58:04copperwait
19:58:12copperhmmm
19:58:13ZincAlloyyou do
19:58:31ZincAlloyyou want to reduce the peaks of your softest material
19:58:34copperthat's an interesting thought
19:58:39ZincAlloyand bring everything else back up in level
19:59:10copperOK
19:59:19copperI'll test all that tomorrow
19:59:43copperwell, thanks for your input
20:00
20:00:03ZincAlloyI'm pretty sure the compressor is currently pre-replay gain
20:00:08copperwhy?
20:00:24ZincAlloyI have replay gain on
20:00:35copperright
20:00:44copperthat's fucked up though
20:00:45ZincAlloyplaying a song with a replay gain rating of −10.69 dB
20:01:05ZincAlloysetting the threshold to −9 and basically all other settings to stun
20:01:14coppera replaygained signal should be considered a "source" signal
20:01:31copperi.e. cue all other DSPs AFTER it
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20:02:19ZincAlloyit's clearly doing something at these settings, so it must be pre-replay gain
20:02:41copperI should be able to determine this with my measurements
20:03:24ZincAlloyIt's clearly audible
20:04:40copper"Iggy and The Stooges/Raw Power [1973]" → -16.29 dB replaygain :D
20:04:49copperremastered by Iggy Pop himself :D
20:05:03ZincAlloyouch. clearly mr. pop is no mastering engineer
20:05:14copperhe's clearly half deaf
20:05:25copperclipping sounds like high frequency sounds
20:05:36copperhe probably can't hear shit beyond 8 kHz
20:05:44ZincAlloy:D
20:06:00copperso, in HIS opinion: NO CLIPPING
20:06:04coppersounds… RAW
20:06:14copper(like Raw Power)
20:06:19ZincAlloybrickwall limiting sometimes sounds better when you clip the signal first
20:06:42copperi think that's the all time winner of brickwalling
20:07:12copperno-one else dared doing worse
20:07:34ZincAlloyright. californication is only −12
20:07:40copperI should add statistics to my script
20:07:43ZincAlloyand that clips badly
20:07:49copperyeah
20:08:01ZincAlloyamerican idiot is loud as fuck. that's why I picked it for testing
20:08:04copper-12 dB is pretty much the "standard" for "worst offenders"
20:08:29copperanything beyond that, and you got yourself an international athlete
20:08:45ZincAlloyinterestingly the red hot chili peppers don't sound much like the red hot chili peppers when the audio is not smashed beyond recognition :D
20:09:06copperonly Death Magnetic from Metallica is between -12 and -16
20:09:08copper(-13)
20:09:21copperand Death Magnetic is a pretty notorious offender
20:09:43copper(in my collection, anyway)
20:10:07ZincAlloyI can't imagine limiting a 1973 recording that badly. don't think that would work. you have to mix for loudness to make things really loud at the mastering stage
20:10:21copperwhen you consider a target demographic that listens mostly to that kind of content, it's easy to design a DAP that will make you go deaf
20:10:58ZincAlloythe EU isn't exactly helpful limiting the output of players, though
20:11:22copperindeed
20:11:35coppermy smartphone is 10 dB quieter than a Clip+
20:11:49copper14 dB quieter than my Rockboxed iPod Classic
20:11:58ZincAlloyouch. that's low
20:12:10coppersaid Classic being 6 db quieter (or more) with the OF
20:12:44coppermy smartphone gets maxed out pretty easily
20:12:46ZincAlloyI can comfortably go to −10db with my headphones on a clip zip with replay gain on.
20:13:00copperwell
20:13:11ZincAlloydepending on the music of course
20:13:21coppermy super sensitive IEMs work OK with my smartphone with RG on and a -5 dB preamp
20:13:24copperat MAX VOLUME
20:13:36copper:-/
20:13:53coppermy smartphone's output is otherwise fine
20:14:03copperhttp://outpost.fr/rmaa/Sony_Xperia_Z1.htm
20:15:30***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
20:16:06copper17:20:27 UTC <ZincAlloy> that's one useful script
20:16:27copperI wrote it after Saint asked what the ideal preamp gain would be
20:16:32ZincAlloy:D
20:16:56copperI figured I only needed to compute the difference between RG gain and peak
20:17:25ZincAlloyright. that thing should be a plugin on every player.
20:17:32copperindeed
20:17:39copperlike, I don't know… foobar2000
20:17:43copper<_<
20:17:56ZincAlloyanything that uses replaygain
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22:26:24saratogacopper: system > running time
22:26:31saratogaits reset when you plugin a charger IIRC
22:26:57saratogafun fact: it was broken for something like 4 years without anyone noticing, but i fixed it a while back
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