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#rockbox log for 2015-10-05

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00:47:47 Join Aldem [0] (~Aldem@unaffiliated/aldem)
01:03:06 Quit jtdesigns01 (Quit: jtdesigns01)
01:08:02[Franklin]uh, what are the requirements for a email?
01:12:09[Saint]it's just a mirror address.
01:12:33[Franklin]stupid freenom isn't working anymore, I was looking for alternatives :)
01:12:47[Saint]it's not actually a separate address.
01:12:55[Saint]it just points one to another.
01:12:56[Franklin]I know
01:13:39[Saint]Ask Daniel or Bjorn.
01:50:23AldemDoes Rockbox supports APE well ?
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01:51:39[Franklin]Aldem: it's supported
01:51:42[Franklin]but SLOOW
01:51:57AldemIt keeps bugging my Sansa e280 on APEs
01:52:07[Franklin]there's no reason to use APE over FLAC, really
01:52:08AldemBut I have the lastest test ver. though
01:52:17AldemI just downloaded them as APE
01:52:21[Saint]Why would anyone want to use APE deliberately?
01:52:28AldemThen, laziness kicked in
01:52:48[Saint]APE is foolishly resource intensive, and there's no realworld games.
01:52:54AldemBecause the said album could only be found in lossless as APE
01:52:55[Saint]just use flac or wav
01:52:57AldemCough cough torrents
01:53:14[Franklin]Aldem: re-encode them
01:53:19[Saint]and we all know that transcoding doesn't exist. :p
01:53:19AldemOh, I will
01:53:28AldemI was in a hurry yesterday
01:53:37AldemI just put all the files on the sansa and hop to work
01:53:52AldemTAK is nice though
01:53:59[Franklin]there's like one target that's fast enough to actually decode it well
01:53:59[Saint]take a look at APE performance:
01:54:12AldemBut yes, FLAC is the best compatibility wise
01:54:15[Saint]APE performance is terrible, even on the _insane_ targets.
01:54:59[Saint]Realistically though, you'll never detect an observable difference on a wide majority of tracks between lossless and modern LAME at 320 CBR.
01:55:16[Saint]Outside of a few very specific detectable encoding quirks of LAME.
01:55:46[Saint]ANd even then you have to really know what you're listening for, and have a track with a very diverse dynamic range.
01:56:00AldemI do hear a diff
01:56:16AldemBetween lossless and 320, but not with all of my headphones
01:56:18[Franklin]so use FLAC then
01:56:24[Saint]I'm sure you think you do.
01:56:27[Saint]double blind ABX testing has proved time and time again that lossless audio codecs may as well not exist.
01:56:38AldemI did ABX it with Foobar [Saint]
01:57:19[Saint]there's no statistical correlation with being able to perceive a difference with modern LAME and lossless codecs that is significantly different from the probability of blind guessing.
01:57:25AldemI agree that it's not a 'black and white' difference though
01:57:35[Saint]That has been tested time and time again.
01:57:50[Saint]You, me, anyone else, is just as likely to get it right by blind luck.
01:57:58[Saint]That's backed by hard data.
01:58:03AldemWell, I don't know what to tell you
01:58:12AldemI agree that the difference is subtle
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01:59:04[Saint]I myself can do it, with 100% reliability, but it has to be a fairly old version of the LAME encoder, and it needs to be a VERY specific reference track with extremely high dynamic range.
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01:59:25[Saint]If I am not allowed to pick the samples, as any test should be....nope.
01:59:36*[Franklin] never plays audio in rockbox
02:00:04AldemBack, sorry
02:00:11[Saint]ANd even then I'm cheating by listing for quirks I know exist in the LAME encoder.
02:00:29AldemThere are some listening tests now and then on HydrogenAudio
02:00:33AldemInteresting stuff
02:00:42[Saint]Those are all gyped.
02:01:07AldemI wouldn't say that
02:01:07[Saint]There's nothing statistically significant in any of that data.
02:01:11[Saint]It's all useless.
02:01:28[Saint]You can easily cheat just by pulling the tracks right out of the browser cache.
02:01:34[Saint]and you'd better believe people do.
02:01:57AldemWhere's human is, human nature is also there
02:02:02[Saint]for it to have any scientific merit, the observer cannot control the track selection or access the recoding at all.
02:02:51[Saint]It's just a community of people trying to justify their ludicrous expenditure and silly numbers.
02:03:03AldemThat's Head-fi
02:03:11AldemHydrogenAudio is sane
02:03:50AldemIn fact, claiming things withough bringing proof on HA is a bannable offence
02:04:31[Saint]Trying to convinced themselves that there's actually a meaningful reason to use 24/192kHz "HD" audio.
02:04:49AldemThey say the contrary in fact
02:04:53[Saint]It's especially hilarious when they use Rockbox and laud how much of a difference this HD audio makes.
02:04:57AldemThey say that it's useless
02:05:05[Saint]Blissfully ignorant that we're downsampling it silently.
02:05:08AldemHA doesn't believe in 24/96
02:05:23AldemI think you're confusing HA with Head-Fi
02:05:31[Saint]They're all toxic.
02:05:34[Franklin]32kbps mp3 and wav sound the same to me...
02:06:05[Saint]realistically 15.5 bits is enough to reproduce the entire human audible spectrum faithfully.
02:06:22AldemHA is not denying that
02:06:32AldemMost of HA users listen to 16/44.1
02:06:45[Saint]but people in the audiophile community call me satan if I dare try bringing sampling theory into their conversations about how many silly adjectives thay can apply to an audio source.
02:07:00AldemYou really should browse HA a little
02:07:36jtdesigns01um guys, you should probably move this discussion to #rockbox-community
02:07:41[Saint]The only place I see lossless audio being relevant for consumers is archival.
02:08:03AldemHA call them Audio'phools'
02:08:15Aldemjtdesigns01: Wasn't aware there was such a channel
02:08:22[Saint]Pot calling the kettle black.
02:08:51jtdesigns01Topic for #rockbox is: 3.13 released! | Please read before speaking: | Please direct offtopic/social chat to #rockbox-community | This channel is logged at
02:08:59Aldem[Saint]: Seriously, from what I here from you, HA is the place people like you. You should give it a try. No non-sense or audiophoolery stuff
02:09:20AldemThanks jtdesigns01
02:10:58*[Saint] maintains that he can set the topic to whatever he feels like
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10:27:39wodzpamaury: hey
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10:43:02pamaurywodz: hey
10:43:09pamauryI'm finally in the UK :)
10:43:42pamaurynot sure I'll have much time this morning, I need to open a bank account, get a insurance number, sim card and so on
10:44:59wodzpamaury: As I wrote, I like your hwstub/hwstub_server refactoring. The only thing is that I though that tcp transport will be used internally between tools. That means if you fire up hwstub_shell with all params and it checks hwstub_server is not running it will spawn one.
10:45:52pamaurywodz: yeah but see the log, the problem is that hwstub_shell only handles one device
10:46:00pamaurywhereas therere can be several hwstub device
10:46:12pamaurynot to mention that hwstub_server doesn't handle disconnect/reconnect
10:46:28pamauryapart from that, I agree that would be a good idea
10:47:19wodzpamaury: isn't uri meant to handle this case? I mean filter which device you want connect to
10:47:41wodzdiscon/reconn should be easy to fix
10:48:58pamauryyes but say, in qeditor for example, the user want to change the device to connect to, suddenly the running server becomes useless
10:49:19pamauryand the uri can be more or less precise, if you specify bus+addr, it will change everytime
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10:51:01pamauryit's really the server that should enumerate device and report all of them, and handle this dynamically
10:51:12wodzso maybe hwstub_server should build up a list of connected devices and return it on request to the client
10:51:47pamauryyes exactly
10:51:54pamauryand have a mechanism to notify a change in the list
10:52:02pamaurybasically this is all implemented in qeditor
10:55:11pixelmawodz: what is the status of your fixes for RaaA on Android 5?
10:55:45wodzpixelma: I wouldn't call it fixes. This are hacks rather.
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11:03:30wodzAnyway I guess there are more problems with imposed restrictions on ART and our internal architecture - talk comming to mind first.
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11:13:38pixelmabut is Rockbox usable there at least?
11:17:46wodzpixelma: 1) I tried in emulator 2) Didn't check voice interface 3) Patches on gerrit are not very clean.
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11:18:02wodzpixelma: Considering all this it can play music in emulator
11:19:42pixelmahmm, ok. Thanks
11:20:53wodzpixelma: I can clean it up a bit but I am not sure it is worth the effort. With current approach it should not go into HEAD.
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14:39:12FSancheshi, there! I'm a frequent code contributor to MAME / MESS. I wonder whether it would be possible to support emulation of music players in MAME
14:39:56FSanchesfor that we would need 2 things: technical info about the supported devices (which I guess can be obtained by reading rockbox source code) and original firmware dumps (before rockbox being installed on the devices)
14:40:51FSanchesany thought on that?
14:42:48pamauryFSanches: I'm sorry for the stupid question, what is MAME / MESS ?
14:43:08FSanchesMAME = Multiple Arcade Machine Emulator
14:43:16FSanchesMESS = Multi Emulator Super System
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14:43:46FSanchesMAME and MESS used to be released separatelly, but now both are merged into a single thing called simply MAME
14:44:06FSanchesit is a free software project for building a (huge) collection of emulators
14:44:26FSancheswith the primary purpose of preserving computing history
14:44:27pamauryok so it basically emulates arcade machines. And what would you like to do with rockbox ?
14:44:39FSanchesit emulates anything
14:45:23FSanchesits arcade machines emulation is highly popular , but it also emulates all sorts of digital equipment, not only arcades
14:45:39FSanchesfor instance, recently someone added emulation of a dot matrix printer
14:46:09pamauryI see, so you would like to emulate some mp3 players (like a Sansa Clip for example, just picking a random one) with MAME, do I undertand correctly ?
14:46:33FSanchesso, the purpose is to document the hardware architecture of portable music players by means of implementing emulators for them
14:46:44FSanchesyes, exactly
14:46:55pamauryI see, what architecture do you have in MAME ? Do you support ARM ? MIPS ?
14:47:03FSancheslots of things
14:47:21FSancheswe support the CPUs that are necessary for emulating the things we need
14:47:29FSanchesthe emulator is modular
14:47:44FSanchesit has a system for connecting the emulation modules
14:47:46pamauryOk, so of course it depends a lot on the mp3 players, rockbox runs on lot of different SOCs, some are very well documented, some badly, some not at all
14:48:10pamaurybut that sounds very interesting
14:48:18FSanchesso you basically write a C file listing which CPUs, sound chips, video chips, peripherals are used
14:48:24FSanchesand how they are mapped into memory
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14:49:24pamauryI see, one of the things that is hard in emulation of these devices is that they tend to have a number of devices on I/O and GPIO ports, some of them are even bit-banged
14:49:56FSancheslook here for a list of the CPUs we already support:
14:50:32pamauryimpressive list :-o
14:51:01FSanches18+ years old project
14:51:44pamaurysince we usually reverse engineer a lot of thing, we usually have a good understanding of the working of each device, and we usually know how to dumps ROMS and so on. I guess it would be easier to start with a very simple SOC because recent SOCs tend to be very complicated
14:52:01FSanchesyeah, sure
14:52:23pamauryDo you have any support for things like USB ?
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14:54:09pamauryFSanches: unfortunately, I need to go, but I really would like to resume this conversation. Do you have an IRC channel ? Or email address ?
14:54:32FSanchesI'll send you my email address in a private conversation
14:55:28FSanchesthe developers and contributors of the MAME/MESS projects usually hangout at #messdev on server
14:56:03pamauryok, I'll probably go there then
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14:56:25FSanchesok, see ya
14:56:36*gevaerts isn't really sure what the "market" is for mp3 player emulation
14:56:55gevaertsStill, if you enjoy doing that sort of thing... :)
14:57:01wodzusually writing emulator blocks for peripherials is what is time consuming
14:57:01FSanchesgevaerts: it is not about a "market". It is about hardware documentation
14:57:22FSanchesfor the sake of historical preservation
14:57:52wodzwodz: I hacked emulators twice and always ended up emulating just enough to run the piece of code I was interested in
14:58:18wodzthat is something which can't be named documentation IMO
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14:58:58gevaertsFSanches: yes, I can see that up to a point, it's just that I don't think many of those devices to very interesting things
14:59:33FSanchesthere's plenty of emulation geeks willing to emulate anything they can
14:59:38gevaertsThey're not like game consoles with massive game libraries available
14:59:54FSanchesit is much more about the technical challenge
15:00:01FSanchesfeels like solving puzzles
15:00:14FSanchesit is fun
15:00:28FSanchesso, there's people willing to do it
15:00:42gevaertsWell, it's a sign the more useful stuff is starting to be complete I guess, which is a good sign :)
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15:03:15gevaertsIf it were up to me, I'd consider starting with something PP502x based, as that gives you a fair range of players
15:05:22gevaertsBut I'm not that low-level a person, so I might be overlooking some things that make those hard
15:06:58gevaertsThere's also some emulation code for those at
15:08:41gevaertsHmmm, I suspect maybe the ams line is easier due to there being actual datasheets for the SoC
15:09:03gevaertsBut that's fewer devices :)
15:10:16pamauryPP502x are awefully documented
15:11:00pamaurythe AMS players seem more reasonable for a start
15:11:13pamaurythe imx233 players are well documented but the SOC is very complex
15:11:58pamaurythe TCCs are pretty documented
15:12:02pamauryare quite simple
15:12:36gevaertsI'd say it depends on who's doing the work and why. If historical significance is important, I'd say things like the archoses and the ipods are more interesting, if you want a decent beginner project pp502x is probably out, ...
15:12:38pamaurythe RK27xx is good bet because they are simple, the doc is so-so as wodz knows ;)
15:13:09gevaertsThe assumption here probably is that the people involved have done RE and emulatiuon before though
15:13:35pamaurybut most (all ?) people who worked on the archoses are gone I think
15:13:42*pamaury need to leave
15:14:18gevaertsYes, but we know who they are and where they live (online, anyway) :)
15:15:09gevaertsAnd we know where to find some of the OF people too
15:17:35FSanchesfor the sake of historical preservatin the target is to emulate EVERYTHING
15:17:47FSanchesbut to start is always good to select something simple
15:18:31FSanchesthe first one does not need to be the most historically relevant
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15:18:55gevaertsI wonder if maybe the old irivers might be easiest
15:20:02FSanchesI'll take a look
15:20:36FSanchesplease take a look at some of the MAME drivers to have an idea of how our modular emulation system works
15:21:06FSanchesthe drivers are here
15:22:13FSanchesfor instance, here's the machine configuration description for an Apple 2 computer:
15:24:31*gevaerts assumes that a system with lots of separate one-function chips with available documentation is easier to handle than a system with one big SoC and no documentation :)
15:26:33FSanchesmore recent stuff in MAME already deals with that kind of problem
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15:26:52FSancheswhich is not always solved. There's lots of imncomplete things in MAME
15:27:05FSanchesbut it is OK
15:27:33FSancheswe do some sort of "Computer Archeology"...
15:27:54FSanchesdocumenting incomplete stuff is better than ignoring it and letting it die forever
15:27:57gevaertsOn the rockbox side, I'd say the earlier ports have better documentation on our wiki
15:29:08gevaertsPeople actually traced PCBs back then :)
15:29:34FSanchesawesome :-)
15:29:49FSanchesI do trace PCBs sometimes
15:29:54FSanchesbut for larger PCBs
15:30:06FSanchesmusic players tend to be VERY small
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15:30:20FSanchesso it is certainly very much harder to trace the PCBs
15:30:30*gevaerts nods
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15:30:37gevaertsThe old ones were bigger
15:32:32gevaertsI'd say the best documentation on our wiki is probably for the archoses (jukebox/player, recorder, ondio), the irivers (1x0, 3x0), and the iaudio X5/M5/M3
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18:10:47 Quit einhirn (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.
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23:18:35 Quit lebellium (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 42.0/20151001142456])
23:25:17 Nick chxr is now known as chardy (
23:31:43 Quit einhirn (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.
23:33:32 Quit amayer (Quit: Leaving)
23:33:58 Quit TheLemonMan (Quit: "It's now safe to turn off your computer.")

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