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#rockbox log for 2015-11-11

00:09:37 Quit pamaury (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
00:28:30 Join JdGordon [0] (~jonno@rockbox/developer/JdGordon)
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00:49:23 Join [Saint] [0] (~hayden@rockbox/staff/saint)
00:52:06 Quit ender` (Quit: Cigarettes are like squirrels. They're perfectly harmless until you put one in your mouth and light it on fire.)
01:05:00[Saint]What the _Hell_ is cortexM4_but_really_actually_rk27 guy on the forums doing?
01:05:42[Saint]To be perfectly honest, I'm wondering how on Earth he got execution and playback...
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03:23:04 Join Yogurt [0] (4cadbe8d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.
03:23:09YogurtHey all, anyone seen this?
03:25:19[Saint]it has two things that rockbox doesn't care for in the slightest, and unless you're willing to do a port for it, I'm not sure how much it matters that anyone else sees it.
03:25:37[Saint]those two things being: "HD" audio, and video.
03:26:35[Saint]I realize that sounds harsh, but, yeah.
03:26:56[Saint]"high res" audio is an absolute joke.
03:27:24Yogurtwithout getting into the mertis or lack there of of the "quality"
03:27:41Yogurtthe smaller one looks like the most exciting new DAP I've seen in a long time
03:27:53[Saint]384KHz/32bit PCM Audio simply demonstrates little more than the fact that the maintainer/lead is a fucking idiot.
03:28:02Yogurt12 hour battery, good format coverage
03:28:15 Quit ps-auxw (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
03:28:59[Saint]48KHz/16 bit is good enough for everyone in the consumer market.
03:29:06[Saint]in fact, it's actually overkill.
03:29:32Yogurtbut when's the last time rockbox actually had a new port?
03:30:05[Saint]There's still active development on a number of unreleased ports.
03:30:18[Saint]But unless you're going to make this port, I'm not sure the question matters.
03:30:34[Saint]And if you are, unless you change a LOT, the device is very poorly suited.
03:30:43Yogurthow so?
03:30:49[Saint]Seeing as how we're going to downsample everything to 16 bit at 48KHz anyway.
03:31:08Yogurtit seems like a better sansa clip + to me
03:31:36[Saint]The two items pretty much can't be compared in that fashion.
03:31:50[Saint]The Clip series is a series of disposable devices for athletes and gym bunnies.
03:32:05[Saint]Something you can essentially destroy and not give a shit about.
03:32:21Yogurtwhich is why it's awesome
03:32:44Yogurtthe smaller seiun is $30
03:33:00Yogurtwhich is less than a clip+ on amazon
03:33:00[Saint]you'd get the same value, more so actually, out of a second hand Android handset.
03:33:12Yogurtjust no
03:33:30[Saint]If you say so.
03:33:43[Saint]In reality, however...yes.
03:33:57Yogurtandroid handsets don't have buttons and thus have crappy UIs
03:34:00 Quit JdGordon_ (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
03:34:03Yogurtmaybe they sound better
03:34:08Yogurtmaybe it's more GB/$
03:34:16Yogurtbut they're shit to use
03:34:29[Saint]What world do you live in where Android handsets don't have buttons?
03:34:40[Saint]Apparently not.
03:35:03 Join ps-auxw [0] (
03:35:29Yogurtvolume rocker and power
03:35:31Yogurtthat's all
03:35:39[Saint]Those are buttons are they not?
03:35:44[Saint]Also - small sample size is small.
03:36:23Yogurtvolume rocker, next, last, home, play/pause, and menu
03:36:26[Saint]fuck, there's plenty of devices from the past that have a full fucking DPAD and physical back/menu buttons.
03:36:44[Saint]the notion those devices don't exist is absurd.
03:36:55[Franklin]almost all of them do
03:37:12[Saint]those from the past, yes, indeed.
03:37:23[Saint]anything from ~3 or so years ago.
03:37:30Yogurtwould you buy one?
03:37:43[Saint]As an audio player, sure, why not?
03:37:52[Saint]It's no less silly then the option posted above.
03:38:01Yogurtsome 4 hour battery, overly complex, overly large thing just to be a music device?
03:38:09[Saint](and actually runs an OS people care about)
03:38:25YogurtI see android as a downside of the package
03:38:52[Saint]4 hour battery...pfffffft.
03:39:10Yogurtso anyway
03:39:17Yogurtrockbox on the seiun
03:39:25Yogurtyou said the device was poorly suited
03:39:25[Saint]Not gonna happen unless you do it.
03:39:47[Saint]because it has way more hardware ability than we're ever going to use.
03:39:58Yogurtboard shot:,w_620/v1446435202/cpxbj8muzo597vyanqzs.jpg
03:40:08Yogurtso... because it's too good?
03:40:20[Franklin]8 core processor!?
03:40:20[Saint]installing Rockbox on it, as Rockbox is now, would be crippling the "HD" audio aspect of it.
03:40:30[Saint]WHich is arguably the only attractive element.
03:40:53Yogurtthe small one
03:40:58Yogurtthe $30 dual core
03:41:01[Saint]But this is really only a meta-discussion unless you're planning on doing the port.
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03:41:06[Saint]I assure you no one else will.
03:41:22YogurtI don't know what portng involves
03:41:30Yogurtand you're just saying 'fuck this thing' over and over
03:41:42shadowsanother proprietary hardware DAP? no thanks. pass
03:42:06shadowskickstart an open hardware design player that ships rockbox, and I'll buy
03:42:07[Saint]shadows: but, but, but...HD!
03:42:08[Franklin]you could probably decode APE in realtime on that thing!
03:42:15Yogurtit may not be proprietary
03:42:24Yogurtthat's sorta what I'm getting at
03:42:38shadowsYogurt: try finding those chips in single quantity - supply is another problem
03:43:30[Saint]The $30 "only" does 192KHz PCM
03:43:47[Saint]fucking audiophiles man...
03:44:31[Saint]"It frustrates us that audio quality (for both music & film) has stalled at 44.1KHz/16bit Audio as its standard when audio technology and storage space are no longer a limiting factor. "
03:45:13[Saint]I wonder if it frustrates them that a truly MASSIVE portion of the population will never be able to determine a difference in audio of any higher quality?
03:45:16[Franklin][Saint]: for your excellent ears:
03:45:55shadowsif you're doing sonar research, 192KHz becomes very important
03:46:30[Saint]shadows: I'm actually a bat, so, it's very important for me.
03:46:50[Saint]When I'm not hanging upside down, or eating bugs, I'm jamming on my Pono with Neil Young.
03:47:06shadowswell. the audiophiles will take a reason - any reason - which supports their religious views
03:47:20shadowsit's a topic unrelated to actual music
03:47:25Yogurtand someone will jump to make money on it
03:47:35Yogurthence the 8core player
03:47:48[Saint][Franklin]: the irony in "You like classic rock music better? This other test (Neil Young) is for you." is delicious.
03:47:56shadowsso... other than just complain about it
03:47:58[Saint]Not sure if it's intentional, but, it's hilarious.
03:48:53[Saint]that page does link to some sanity, however.
03:49:08Yogurtso shadows, I can't make out the chip in the only board shot they provide. Do you just want to find a single one for specs lookup?
03:49:14[Saint]that's usually my go-to rant page for explaining to people why big numbers are meaningless in consumer audio.
03:49:53shadowsYogurt: single-quantity availability and longevity of supply are important when producing a product in open hardware designs
03:50:21Yogurtoh, so you're thinking of starting a different hardware project?
03:50:36shadowstheorizing about it yes
03:50:50Yogurtdo it
03:50:52shadowswhat product would be an actual success on kickstarter and could ship with rockbox
03:51:00[Franklin]people'll crowdfund anything nowadays
03:51:17[Saint]No one wants a device to ship with Rockbox.
03:51:17YogurtI'll buy it as long as it doesn't have a touch screen
03:51:25[Saint]Not unless we DRASTICALLY remake the UI.
03:51:29Yogurtgive me a clip++
03:51:39[Saint]The UI is very engineer orientated.
03:51:41shadowswhat about the CDJay as an example?
03:51:51shadowsdeejays around the world use CDJay
03:51:53[Saint]It's pretty obvious it's been built by people who give zero fucks about UX.
03:51:58shadowsthere's not a touch screen
03:52:04shadowsit's a giant wheel and some buttons
03:52:08shadowsit's very successful
03:52:33shadowsmoreover it makes no sense to run Android on something like that
03:52:41Yogurtgot a link?
03:52:43Yogurtdon't see it
03:52:48YogurtI agree
03:52:59Yogurtsticking android on a DAP makes it needlessly complex
03:52:59[Saint]Oh holy's 64 bit.
03:53:25shadows Pioneer CDJ product line
03:53:30[Saint]these fuckers are just throwing high numbers at the wall and hoping people jump at it.
03:54:12shadowsI'd lost interest in their kickstarter even though it is a product category I am interested in
03:54:23Yogurthuh, that's cool
03:55:10Yogurtanyway if you do make an open DAP I'm totally in (again so long as it's more clip+ rather than ipod touch)
03:55:15Yogurtyou could call it the rockbox :)
03:55:30shadowsthere's lots of products which fill the need already
03:55:38Yogurtsuch as...
03:55:43[Saint]There's something really bloody wrong with this product if they're only getting 12h of playback on it at 500mA.
03:55:49[Saint]like, reall really wrong.
03:55:59[Saint]they could easily double that.
03:56:10Yogurtsaint: they're resampling. reasons I want rockbox on the thing
03:56:39[Saint]y'know we resample too, yeah?
03:56:50Yogurtdidn't actually
03:57:06Yogurtbut I've been very happy with how rockbox performs and how it functions
03:57:30shadowsanyway rockbox is not what the kickstarter backers are paying for
03:57:50[Saint]it's hard to see what they are paying for...
03:57:56***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
03:58:04shadowsyou mightn't see it but that doesn't make it invalid or laughable
03:58:04Yogurtthey're paying for things they can brag about
03:58:24shadowslots of people bought iPhones and apple products as well
03:58:35Yogurtif you pushed the open nature of a rockbox you'd get a decent following
03:58:52[Saint]Maybe in the past. Not now.
03:58:53shadowsI don't see the sense in it but it's still just as valid as when I buy a normal priced commodity phone or computer and run my own software on it
03:58:56[Saint]the DAP space is dead.
03:59:14shadowsYogurt: are you very sure of that? playing the other side here, what about bluetooth speaker support?
03:59:36YogurtI can only speak for myself, but I give zero shits about bluetooth speakers
03:59:36[Saint]Joe Average doesn't want or need a DAp when their mobile is perfectly capable of supplying their playback needs.
03:59:52[Saint]2 devices vs. 1, etc.
03:59:57[Saint]Mobiles killed DAPs.
04:00:01YogurtI'm far from the norm, but just because you don't build for the norm doesn't mean you build for no one
04:00:23shadowsright; however I did point out the professional music mixing space as a possible venue for embedded player firmware
04:00:38Yogurtpossibly yes
04:00:52shadowsif you want open hardware that ships with rockbox, perhaps it will not be a portable player that fits in one's pocket
04:01:05shadowswhat other products would be interesting?
04:01:06Yogurtand that kills it for me
04:01:15Yogurtwhat other rockbox products?
04:01:24shadowswhat other types of products
04:01:46shadowsmaybe an educational product?
04:02:07YogurtI'm not sure I understand the question. You want to know what other products in general I want to see? Like... can openers and washing machines?
04:02:08[Franklin]how are you going to make rockbox educational?
04:02:26[Franklin]Yogurt: I think he wants to know what rockbox-based products?
04:02:57Yogurtsmall, fits in your pocket DAPs
04:03:06YogurtI'm not sure rockbox has any other function for me
04:03:40[Saint]How else are you gonna play DooM on a screen so small you can't even see the sprites?
04:03:47shadowsfor people wanting to learn how to develop products with complex embedded firmware, rockbox is a good start
04:03:48[Saint]Priorities, yo.
04:04:59[Franklin]a rockbox console
04:05:07[Franklin]"The Rockbox"
04:06:00[Saint]I want to know exactly what SoC and companion chips they're using.
04:06:24[Saint]But the fuckers have deliberately defocussed and/or outright removed the vendor info on the shots of the silicon.
04:06:59[Saint],w_620/v1446438931/q9tqzwkxf93og4mzbcd4.png for instance.
04:07:08[Saint]they've gone out of their way to obscure the silicon.
04:07:14Yogurtthat's not a defocus just a downsample
04:07:35shadowsdoes a rockbox player need a screen?
04:07:41Yogurtthis one anyway
04:07:46Yogurtno it does not
04:08:02Yogurtmaybe a small low power screen
04:08:02[Saint]the image I linked above has definitely been deliberately obscured.
04:08:10Yogurtala the clip+
04:08:14shadowswhy a screen?
04:08:28Yogurtmenu navigation
04:08:38Yogurtsaint: ya I think your right on that
04:09:20Yogurtshadows: if you remake the rockbox UI in an ipod shuffle sort of way then no I guess it doesn't need a screen
04:09:35shadowsYogurt: interesting. has this been attempted already?
04:09:37Yogurtbut it needs to be zero config
04:09:40Yogurtno idea
04:10:10[Saint]using Rockbox as a basis of a product with no screen would be creating a lot of needless work.
04:10:21[Saint]Hell, just pur a wrapper around ffmpeg and call it a day.
04:11:45Yogurtanyway shadows, if you do put together an open DAP shoot me a line at darakian at gmail
04:11:51YogurtI'd love to see that
04:11:57shadowsI'm keeping an eye open
04:12:21shadowsporting to Raspberry Pi model A+ has been said to be under-useful
04:12:40[Saint]There's no porting required.
04:12:50shadowsw/o Linux
04:13:07*[Franklin] doesn't get the point of that
04:13:16[Saint]yeah, me neither.
04:13:24[Franklin]why do extra work for negative gain?
04:13:46shadowsthat is ideal hardware only in the sense that it has enough computing power, and a very good price point
04:13:58Yogurtrockbox is a DAP os. It makes sense in my pocket
04:13:58shadowsthe audio codec onboard is not very clean
04:14:11Yogurtwhat about the pi compute module
04:14:15Yogurtthe ram stick thing
04:14:26[Saint]that's going to be VERY costly.
04:14:33Yogurtthen snap it in a breakout board and case
04:14:38[Saint]and end up in sum total larger than the pi board itself.
04:14:42shadowsa somewhat portable player module could be made using the compute module
04:14:54[Saint]and you'd first have to engineer said breakout board.
04:14:57Yogurtya that would be a decent size
04:14:59[Saint]again, work for negative gain.
04:15:06shadows[Saint]: ?
04:15:15Yogurtsaint quit being so negative
04:15:24[Saint]It's just a fact.
04:15:25shadowsyou've shot down the idea not even understanding what is involved
04:15:36[Saint]I know exactly what is involved.
04:15:44[Saint]the compute module brings nothing to the table here.
04:15:54[Saint]absolutely nothing.
04:15:57Yogurtwhatever, anyway shadows
04:16:09Yogurtcompute module plus a breakout + case
04:16:18Yogurtmaybe $50 in parts costs?
04:16:41shadowsyeah less than $150 but also figure that the case is not so important
04:16:54[Saint]using the compute module over the standard raspi will dramatically increase the total cost, mean you'll need to engineer a breakout board for it, and increase the total size to at least that of the standard raspi.
04:16:59shadows3d-printing what it is, some people will design case
04:17:03[Saint]So, tell me, am I being negative, or just sane?
04:17:22Yogurtshadow: you think $150?
04:17:22[Saint]it'll also mean you need to make at least 50K of them...
04:17:34shadowsYogurt: less than, yes. I think $150 upper bound
04:18:00shadows$150 is what I paid recently for a custom designed add-on "PortaPack H1" that plugs into the HackRF
04:18:09Yogurtif I could buy an open dap at that price (case, battery, etc.. included) I'd buy that
04:18:10[Saint]keep in mind that if you're using the compute module that there's a minimum order.
04:18:12[Saint]again, sanity.
04:18:50[Franklin]how far did lyre get?
04:18:58Yogurtis the patent on the apple click wheel up yet?
04:19:00shadowsthe compute module is handy because it is backed by a well established educational supply foundation
04:19:02[Saint]About as far as this will.
04:19:14[Saint]shadows: as opposed to the pi?
04:19:21shadowsequally so
04:19:38[Saint]the pi has the bonus of not having any additional HW requirtements, and no minimum order in the tens of thousands.
04:19:39Yogurtyou can sell the thing as upgradeable as well if the hardware is open
04:19:51Yogurtthe module can just be replaced
04:19:54*[Franklin] can imagine a "DAP" with a pi hooked up to a touchscreen, speaker, and battery pack
04:20:06Yogurttouch screen, hiss!
04:20:24shadowstouch screen, or not, doesn't make any difference really
04:20:29[Franklin]hey, it's simple and it'll work
04:20:36shadowsthe audio codec is important then
04:20:38[Saint]The problem with shit like this is scale.
04:20:41shadowswhich one to use?
04:20:43Yogurtbuttons over touch screen any day for a DAP
04:20:57Yogurtanything decent
04:20:59[Saint]Outside of a few of us here, and maybe a few hundred people globally, no one gives a shit about this type of thing really.
04:21:12Yogurtmaybe make it modular if that's not cost prohibitive
04:21:25shadows[Saint]: I've twice mentioned the pro audio mixing market, do you forget?
04:21:35[Saint]you end up with a more expensive, often ugly, inferior product.
04:21:48[Saint]And, no, I did not.
04:22:07Yogurta niche market is still a valid market
04:22:14[Saint]dreams and aspirations aside, scale is your problem.
04:22:24shadowsYogurt: no, not cost prohibitive; tough to make a successful kit for sale with multiple valid and competing options from one supplier
04:22:34[Saint]we know this because we've seen it happen several times in the community already.
04:22:39[Saint]this is frankly doomed.
04:22:48Yogurtagain with the negativity
04:23:02shadowsoh, dear
04:23:08[Saint]you're confusing negativity with being realistic.
04:23:20[Saint]you seem to think it's so easy to deploy consumer grade hardware at scale.
04:23:22Yogurtanyway shadows, I need to run but please do hit me up if you want to move on with this
04:23:29shadowsthe crackhead neighbors are DIY snowmaking outside and hollering loudly
04:23:34mudlorddont forget this is the kickstarter crowd, they believe anything is possible >_>
04:23:45shadowscompressor and using all the hot water
04:24:03shadowsYogurt: appreciated
04:24:08[Saint]Ask Google about the Lyre project, and all the hopes and dreams and failure it entails.
04:24:08[Franklin]did lyre every try crowdfunding?
04:24:16[Saint]We've seen this play out here at least twice before.
04:24:17Yogurtlater all and don't let shadows get you down :)
04:24:20shadowsYogurt: for now, I'm running an old Android phone with VideoLan Client, works a treat
04:24:23Yogurter... saint
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04:24:51shadowsVLC needs some tweaks to be comparable to Rockbox in user experience and features
04:25:25[Saint]If only it was open source and you could do so... ;)
04:25:31[Saint]Oh, wait. :)
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04:28:37shadows[Saint]: I'm not complaining, just sharing my experience :)
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21:25:48BapteashHello :)
21:26:31BapteashI just installed rockbox on an iPod Video 5G and I'm super happy of the thing! It's nearly unbelievable all the work that have been done...
21:26:47mudlordyeah, i have a sansa clip zip and feel the same way
21:27:00BapteashAbout the clip zip, are you happy of it?
21:27:16BapteashI consider offering one to my girlfriend, as her Sansa Clip Plus died :(
21:27:20mudlordi got a manufacturer refurbished one
21:27:45Bapteashand seriously, Sandisk is now making sh**y mp3
21:28:13BapteashSo I'm up to everything
21:30:10Bapteashdo you like your zip ?
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22:05:17bertrikthe clip zip is the player I use most
22:05:44bertrikI like it because it's really small and light and has a colour screen (compared to clip and clip+)
22:06:13BapteashWhat's the difference between the zip and the sport??
22:06:16BapteashIt seems to be the same
22:06:33bertrikthe sport is not supported by rockbox
22:07:17bertrikcan't remember exactly why, but I think is was because of low memory of only 16-bit processor
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