--- Log for 27.03.108 Server: heinlein.freenode.net Channel: #rockbox --- Nick: logbot Version: Dancer V4.16 Started: 12 days and 21 hours ago 00.00.49 # Nico_P: I take it the event log is heavily filtered. 00.01.04 # it only displays playback events 00.01.22 # * gevaerts looks around for people who know how hardware works to comment on his conclusions 00.01.33 # why is it jsut pause events? 00.01.49 Quit DerPapst (Nick collision from services.) 00.01.52 Join DerPapst [0] (n=DerPapst@p5B23C032.dip.t-dialin.net) 00.02.04 Join CyBergRind|w [0] (n=cbr@212.98.160.130) 00.02.17 # jhMikeS: there are others too (Q_AUDIO_FILL_BUFFER, Q_AUDIO_TRACK_CHANGED) 00.03.25 # kugel: No. But if you want to parse a viewport struct, you should adapt the parse_viewport() function in apps/gui/wps_parser.c, rather than use parse_list directly. 00.03.51 Quit mirak (Client Quit) 00.04.51 # linuxstb_: No, I don't want parse a vp struct directly. Thanks 00.04.57 # yeah but what's with the 4 Q_AUDIO_PAUSEs being sent with no other playback events 00.05.00 Join stripwax [0] (n=Miranda@87-194-34-169.bethere.co.uk) 00.05.15 # I mean like Q_AUDIO_PLAY in between 00.05.28 # there a way to have the music keep playing when i hit the menu button instead of it fading out and pausing? 00.05.47 # gevaerts: these are the results for high or full speed? 00.05.54 # jhMikeS: that's because I was pausing and unpausing. unpause is done by sending Q_AUDIO_PAUSE with false as a vaule 00.06.02 # XavierGr: high speed 00.06.10 # gevaerts: Nice! 00.06.14 # GameJerk: read the manual please...the last few questions are answerable in there 00.06.33 # Hopefully I will have a c240 the next days so I will be able to help in testing (if it isn't a v2) 00.06.35 # jhMikeS: the logf message is actually different, but there isn't enough space in the logf buffer for the latter part 00.06.36 Quit toffe82 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 00.06.51 # XavierGr: I'm not sure if I agree. Having to disable _all_ interrupts is not very nic 00.06.57 # s/nic/nice/ 00.07.20 # well at least you have a slight idea what is to blame for not working properly 00.07.24 # Nico_P: yeah, was gonna say. now I see. 00.07.55 # Yes, but it seems to rule out any kind of creative use of usb (audio,...) 00.08.18 Quit bertrik ("bye") 00.08.23 # gevaerts: ah yes, indeed, forgot that part 00.08.45 # Unless some hardware-wizard can think of a solution 00.09.17 # jhMikeS: I can't try your patch right now but I will ASAP 00.10.07 Quit CaptainKewl ("( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: www.XLhost.de )") 00.11.03 Quit haemmy ("I was raided by the FBI and all I got to keep was this lousy quit message!") 00.13.52 Quit petur ("*plop*") 00.14.34 # gevaerts: How about just disabling interrupts during the actual block transfer? 00.15.15 # * amiconn still doubts that this is the root of the problem though 00.15.30 # It might still be an effect of something we're doing wrong 00.15.38 # scorche: i found the fade out on pause/stop option but i can't find anything referring to being able to have the music continue playing when i hit the menu button 00.15.48 # That could work. The problem is that in theory a transfer can take a long time (seconds...) if the bus is very busy 00.17.05 # Hmm, isn't a block always transferred in one piece? 00.17.16 Join toffe82__ [0] (n=chatzill@h-74-0-180-178.snvacaid.covad.net) 00.17.25 Nick toffe82__ is now known as toffe82 (n=chatzill@h-74-0-180-178.snvacaid.covad.net) 00.17.45 Quit davina ("GNU/Linux the free alternative to Windows") 00.17.58 # I want to simplify the #ifdefs in firmware/SOURCES a bit. Do you think it's better to have a NO_ATA or a HAVE_ATA define? 00.18.14 # (or maybe something else) 00.18.26 Quit cbr|w (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00.18.39 # No (unless you use 512 byte blocks). And even if it was, we have no control over when it is actually sent. We just tell the controller that this block is ready in case the host asks for it 00.19.00 # Aren't the block on the bus always 512 byte (or less)? 00.19.22 # On the bus the packets are 512 bytes (for high speed) 00.20.18 # Ah, yes, packets I mean 00.21.06 # but this controller is pretty high level, so the software can't directly touch packets 00.22.22 # I sincerely doubt the apple OF (or any other PP OF) disables all interrupts permanently during usb connection 00.22.49 Quit roolku (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00.23.24 Quit dantje_ ("Ex-Chat") 00.24.25 # Actually, I think (but have not verified) that in our current situation you can basically do anything as long as you only touch IRAM and leave the external RAM to the USB controller. 00.24.30 # Interrupts or not, the CPU core(s) is/are running in parallel to the usb controller. And when they're running, they're reading code andreading and writing data 00.26.21 # But maybe a cache line miss (and hence fetch) is what disturbs the controller, so it's not the fact that interrupts are running, but rather the fact that interrupts routines are more likely to cause cache misses? (speculating...) 00.26.55 # possibly. 00.27.33 # jhMikeS: I vaguely remember having seen something about priorities, so maybe there are configuration bits to configure cpu vs. usb controller (vs. dma engine??) priority for ram accesses? 00.28.48 Join countrymonkey [0] (n=4b05639a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-490a4d9c82523ca2) 00.30.06 # I guess patches 8722, 8737, and 8761 are ready for commit? 00.30.29 Quit gregzx ("ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox 2.0.0.12/2008020121]") 00.32.41 Join roolku [0] (n=roolku@77-99-112-231.cable.ubr16.edin.blueyonder.co.uk) 00.32.41 Quit toffe82 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 00.32.55 # * bluebrother wonders what "changes were made" this bookshare guy is talking about 00.33.23 # what task? I'm bookshare 00.33.29 Join toffe82__ [0] (n=chatzill@h-74-0-180-178.snvacaid.covad.net) 00.33.49 # bluebrother: I aggree that the play button should resume, but never got around changing it 00.33.59 Quit toffe82__ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 00.34.51 # roolku: using this display button for switching to the file browser from wps is also confusing -- all my other targets use select instead. 00.35.13 # I might give it a try once I find the time. No big deal ... 00.35.31 Join corevette [0] (n=corevett@adsl-75-35-113-7.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) 00.36.06 # If you mean task 8722 than the changes are 2 deprecated strings 00.36.15 # bluebrother: as for lineout - it is not wired to the dock connector in the player 00.36.56 Quit robin0800 (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Po-ta-to, boil em, mash em, stick em in a stew.") 00.37.03 # bluebrother: I thought about a hardware mod, but I am not really using the player... 00.37.29 Join cool_walking_ [0] (n=notroot@203-59-129-195.perm.iinet.net.au) 00.38.03 # strange. Don't they have enough pins on that connector? Oh well. 00.38.19 Join toffe82__ [0] (n=chatzill@h-74-0-180-178.snvacaid.covad.net) 00.38.27 Nick toffe82__ is now known as toffe82 (n=chatzill@h-74-0-180-178.snvacaid.covad.net) 00.38.43 # countrymonkey: yep, I was referring to FS#8722. This guy could really be a bit more descriptive IMO. 00.39.31 Quit Mouser_X () 00.40.23 Quit ol_schoola () 00.40.24 # I'm bookshare. I'm sorry. I said made today because there was a date stamp on the comment and the strings were depricated that day. 00.41.48 # bluebrother: I think they couldn't spare the space for the required capacitors on the circuit board - there are plenty of spare pins 00.42.01 # * bluebrother would really appreciate if people won't use different nicks in all places 00.42.15 Join miepchen^schlaf_ [0] (n=miepchen@p54BF564A.dip.t-dialin.net) 00.42.28 # * linuxstb_ apologises... 00.42.38 # What's wrong with that? 00.43.28 # * linuxstb_ retracts that apology (he thinks...) 00.43.58 # * gevaerts can't remember what nick he uses on the tracker 00.44.22 # Bagder: Missing arm compiler on femlab.bme.duke.edu ... 00.44.29 # You use fg 00.44.35 # linuxstb_: you managed to fix the printf warnings in checkwps? congratulations! 00.44.45 # how did you do it? 00.44.47 # So I have two nicks and one wikiname 00.46.17 # Nico_P: I forget now - there were so many warnings to fix (fixing one introduced another...) 00.46.26 # well, in your case it's kinda obvious. But non-obvious cases can be quite confusing (and therefore annoying) 00.47.09 Join nas [0] (n=nas@bas5-hamilton14-1279280006.dsl.bell.ca) 00.47.29 Quit matsl (Remote closed the connection) 00.47.47 # So it can be committed? 00.47.57 # I mean, so they can be committed? 00.49.36 Join emeraldd [0] (n=jules@adsl-68-90-129-224.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) 00.49.37 Quit toffe82 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 00.50.11 Join toffe82__ [0] (n=chatzill@h-74-0-180-178.snvacaid.covad.net) 00.50.19 Nick toffe82__ is now known as toffe82 (n=chatzill@h-74-0-180-178.snvacaid.covad.net) 00.50.47 # * linuxstb_ guesses the broken build server belongs to saratoga 00.50.47 # amiconn: I just randomly named a register CACHE_PRIORITY with no real idea what it is. 00.51.17 # Nice random name :) 00.52.36 # * bluebrother is annoyed by rbutil creating files on $HOME without asking 00.52.36 Quit toffe82 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 00.53.16 # bluebrother: Didn't you write rbutil? 00.53.55 # not that part of it. 00.53.59 Join toffe82__ [0] (n=chatzill@h-74-0-180-178.snvacaid.covad.net) 00.54.03 Join barrywardell [0] (n=barrywar@rockbox/developer/barrywardell) 00.54.08 Nick toffe82__ is now known as toffe82 (n=chatzill@h-74-0-180-178.snvacaid.covad.net) 00.55.00 Join jhulst [0] (n=jhulst@unaffiliated/jhulst) 00.55.03 # and there's a bug in bootloader installed detection. 00.55.55 # What files get created in $HOME? 00.56.38 Quit stripwax (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00.57.35 Quit miepchen^schlaf (Connection timed out) 00.57.40 # it created a folder "Olympus mrobe100 Original Firmware Backup" and puts the mi4 file into it 00.58.08 # So wa 00.58.16 # * gevaerts blames his keyboard 00.58.18 # it should at least ask me about it (or tell me that it has done this) 00.58.28 # So what if you have two mrobe100s ? 00.58.42 # it will overwrite the first backup 00.58.45 # Shouldn't it just rename to OF.mi4 on the device? 00.59.19 # yes. But after some discussion Domonoky added this "host backup". 00.59.47 # What does the bootloader install actually do? 00.59.48 # I disliked that idea from the beginning and now I got hit by it. 01.00.08 # (on the mrobe100)? 01.00.19 # move PP5020.mi4 to OF.mi4, download PP5020.mi4 and put it in place (all in the System folder on the player) 01.00.29 # btw, any yielding takes control of the interrupt level since there really no safe way to mask and restore them anyway when giving control to other code 01.00.54 # I was skimming the bootloader installation code and wondering if there could be some stuff consolidated 01.01.23 # * Nico_P has been reading about LLVM and it looks really promising 01.01.28 Quit OlivierBorowski_ (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 01.01.29 Quit csc` ("Powering Off") 01.01.43 # originally I was searching why rbutil told me the bootloader is already installed (though it wasn't) 01.02.07 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 01.02.16 # that code is also not too robust. Another item on my todo list ... 01.02.33 # * bluebrother starts to feel like a grumpy old man 01.04.26 # anyone tried that mikmod codec? 01.04.37 Quit GameJerk (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01.05.25 # amiconn: Regarding the (real) red on iriver - it's because I removed adc.h from lcd.h.... I can fix if you want. 01.05.38 # ah, it's a plugin 01.05.40 # linuxstb_: parse_list again. If I have 12|13|, and I only need the last one, what should I do? NULL,&b didn't work 01.05.47 # linuxstb: Please do. 01.05.51 # s/lcd.h/lcd-remote.h/ 01.06.09 Quit DerPapst (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01.06.15 # kugel: You have to use all the parameters - why have them there otherwise? 01.06.17 # Although, the remote type detection doesn't belong where it currently is (lcd driver) 01.07.09 Quit emeraldd ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12") 01.07.15 # because I need for one part the complete list, and for another part only the last part 01.07.18 # jhMikeS: I just tried your OS stacks screen patch and I don't see any weird value 01.07.39 # amiconn: did you see my question earlier about the H10 lcd driver? 01.07.50 # * amiconn scrolls back 01.08.23 # * countrymonkey needs to eat dinner 01.08.55 # someone with an account at sandisks forums around? 01.08.56 Quit countrymonkey ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") 01.09.09 # bluebrother: Aye. 01.09.28 # Llorean: you're aware of this thread? http://forums.sandisk.com/sansa/board/message?board.id=e200&thread.id=9721&view=by_date_ascending&page=1 01.10.01 # the admins telling that all support questions should go to rockbox.org is a bit ... well, annoying, as the thread is about an unofficial installer 01.10.10 # Quite. I've emailed the moderator who started it and asked him to either remove the suggestion that people ask us for help, or change the installer mentioned to be the official one. 01.10.29 # amiconn: basically, setting clcd_clock_src to PLL breaks OF loading in the H10 bootloader and I was wondering if you thought it was okay to define it out for the bootloader? and if it should also be done for smal H10? 01.11.14 # Llorean: nice. I'm sometimes wondering why we are writing an official installer if people frequently come up with unofficial and broken ones. 01.11.22 # You could define it out. Doing so means that the LCD runs a lot slower especially at high cpu clock though 01.11.54 # but only in the bootloader which probably doesn't matter too much? 01.11.59 # bluebrother: Well, that installer might predate a working RBUtil on Sansa. 01.12.12 Join kushal_12_27_200 [0] (n=kushal@12.169.180.134) 01.12.46 # Setting bits 30 and 31 to 1 means the LCD controller is clocked from the PLL, i.e. it runs at 80 MHz when the cpu is boosted. With both bits set to 0 it runs from the base clock (24MHz) 01.13.08 # I really wonder why that setting breaks the OF. 01.13.26 # Hmm, wait 01.13.35 # amiconn: it's necessary for the (big) H10 bootloader. without it, the OF doesn't start up properly 01.14.19 Part toffe82 01.14.51 # barrywardell: I think I know why that happens. It's probably unnecessary to comment out for small H10 01.14.53 Quit miepchen^schlaf_ () 01.15.00 # Remember the speed setting registers? 01.15.02 # hmm, good point. 01.15.40 # * linuxstb_ wonders if the build system has died, or just resting... 01.15.51 # We still didn't do a complete series of measurements in order to use the fast fifo-ed transfer on big H10 01.15.56 # amiconn: ah, yes. 01.15.58 # On small H10, it just works 01.16.11 # So I guess the OF will also work 01.16.19 # big H10 ended up too fast for the controller IIRC 01.16.32 # Yes, but the speed can be programmed 01.16.50 Quit roolku ("sleep") 01.16.51 Join saratoga [0] (n=9803c6dd@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-896db001d45bff9d) 01.17.00 # ...which the big H10 iriver loader doesn't do, but the small H10 iriver loader does 01.17.03 Quit saratoga (Client Quit) 01.17.08 # saratoga: Hi... bah... 01.17.09 Join saratoga [0] (n=9803c6dd@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-a935d84cfa79f3ed) 01.17.31 # * amiconn should really do a series of experiments with that 01.17.36 # saratoga: Is femlab.bme.duke.edu your build server? 01.17.46 Join saratoga222 [0] (n=9803c6dd@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-3e6c9d2cd9bc3819) 01.17.47 # Would be nice to compare results with a big H10 then... 01.17.55 Quit saratoga222 (Client Quit) 01.17.56 Join saratoga22222 [0] (n=9803c6dd@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-fcb04ce55e09ba11) 01.18.02 Quit bluebrother ("sleep") 01.18.25 # barrywardell: I'd say disable it for big H10 bootloader for now, putting a big comment that lcd controller speed settings need work... 01.18.35 # I did a seried of experiments with my (big) H10 previously. there's a link somewhere in the IRC logs 01.18.41 Part feindbild ("http://www.last.fm/user/_poison/") 01.18.43 Join miepchen^schlaf [0] (n=miepchen@p54BF564A.dip.t-dialin.net) 01.18.44 # amiconn: OK, will do 01.18.50 # Is that link target still available 01.18.52 # ? 01.19.02 # * amiconn needs to find that link as well 01.19.19 # I think it was pastebin, available indefinitely but can't remember exactly 01.19.26 # saratoga22222: Is femlab.bme.duke.edu your build server? 01.19.32 # * amiconn fetches the latest bunch of logs now that listlogs.pl is back 01.21.28 # * amiconn usually sets pastebin contents to limited lifetime 01.21.35 # If I don't forget it, that is 01.21.44 # * gevaerts is going to sleep 01.22.09 Quit saratoga ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)") 01.22.10 # * linuxstb_ is still trying to see if his commits were green... 01.22.53 Quit gevaerts ("ZZzz..") 01.23.16 Quit Nico_P (Remote closed the connection) 01.26.01 Nick fxb is now known as fxb__ (n=felixbru@h1252615.stratoserver.net) 01.26.03 # linuxstb_: yes and i've just corrected that 01.27.08 # saratoga22222: Thanks. 01.28.53 # amiconn: found my original records 01.29.22 # amiconn: http://pastebin.ca/958928 01.29.23 # I've found the correct log. 2007-10-12 01.29.49 Join OlivierBorowski_ [0] (n=OlivierB@ANancy-157-1-103-231.w86-218.abo.wanadoo.fr) 01.32.33 # saratoga22222: I've just made another commit if you want to wait to see if your server's OK now. 01.33.13 Quit amiconn (Nick collision from services.) 01.33.19 Join amiconn [50] (n=jens@rockbox/developer/amiconn) 01.35.15 # * amiconn wants the buildmaster script to become a bit more intelligent :\ 01.35.26 # linuxstb: is there someway I can tell besides watching top? 01.35.50 # linuxstb_: you too 01.35.54 Quit techhelper1 () 01.37.26 # saratoga22222: Just check the build table in a few minutes. But I guess if arm-elf-gcc is running, it's OK. 01.38.02 Join Matt65 [0] (n=189e0b72@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-6885fe001c334c2f) 01.39.37 # is there someway on the table to see what machine built what? 01.40.06 # I just tried installing rockbox, following the instructions word for word on a Sansa e260. NOT v2. After it reset it brought up the sandisk loading screen, and froze there 01.40.06 # Hover over the table cell... 01.40.14 # oh never mind 01.41.46 # I don't understand this 01.41.47 # 73 Warning: couldn't get zip from rbclient@femlab.bme.duke.edu/build-ipodcolor 01.41.47 # 73 Copied rbclient@femlab.bme.duke.edu:build-ipodcolor/rockbox.zip in 3 seconds, 725193 bytes/second 01.41.54 # did it get the zip or not? 01.42.14 # saratoga22222: Check the build logs for any of the red builds - arm-elf-gcc isn't in yout path 01.43.53 # can anyone point me in the right direction atleast? 01.44.32 # Matt65: Which instructions did you follow? manual or automatic install? 01.44.33 # rbclient@biosgroup-desktop:~$ arm-elf-gcc 01.44.33 # arm-elf-gcc: no input files 01.44.35 # rbclient@biosgroup-desktop:~$ arm-elf-gcc 01.44.35 # arm-elf-gcc: no input files 01.45.15 # saratoga22222: Are you ssh'ing to the machine to login as rbclient? 01.45.22 # linuxstb_: yes 01.46.14 # Is the path set in acbuild.pl ? 01.46.37 # linuxstb: I set it in .profile 01.47.10 Join |AhIoRoS| [0] (n=ahioros@201.226.58.34) 01.48.20 Join techhelper1 [0] (n=techhelp@pool-72-71-53-17.plspca.fios.verizon.net) 01.48.57 # ah acbuild.pl redefines the path 01.50.26 # It doesn't redefine it, but it can add extra directories to the path 01.50.36 # hmm that shouldn't matter 01.51.29 # can i invoke that script on my own to see whats happening? 01.51.38 # I would guess that the build script is invoking a non-interactive shell, hence .profile isn't read - just .bashrc 01.52.37 # That script takes a lot of complex parameters - it's not straightforward to run outside the build system 01.53.03 # If I was you, I would simply fix the path in acbuild.pl - that's what that line is for. 01.53.16 # i don't understand what it should be 01.53.23 # the default seems to point to the binary 01.53.27 # but shouldn't it be the path? 01.53.48 # What does the PATH line contain in your copy of acbuild.pl? 01.54.17 # Mine is $ENV{'PATH'}.=":/usr/local/sh-1/bin:/usr/local/coldfire/bin:/usr/local/arm-elf/bin"; 01.54.47 # my acbuild.pl appears to have vanished somehow 01.57.34 # made a new one 01.57.43 # so i have to wait for a commit to see if its working? 01.58.45 # I wonder if something/someone deleted that file because of the errors... The latest build was clean. 01.59.42 # But yes, you need to wait for a commit to see if it's working. You could just commit a trivial change somewhere though... 02.00.03 # * linuxstb_ has run out of commits 02.01.18 # i'll do that 02.02.33 # Matt65: That's obviously unexpected behaviour... What install instructions did you follow? (manual or automatic)? 02.04.09 Quit Matt65 ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") 02.08.19 # hmm my machine didn't build anything 02.08.50 Quit kushal_12_27_200 ("This computer has gone to sleep") 02.09.33 # Yes, the latest set of builds happened when your acbuild.pl was missing. 02.10.01 # * linuxstb_ needs to sleep, goodnight. 02.14.18 # 02.14.28 # Not allowed 02.14.33 # Developers can't sleep 02.19.10 Join gromit` [0] (n=gromit@ALagny-154-1-30-142.w83-112.abo.wanadoo.fr) 02.22.57 Quit Thundercloud (Remote closed the connection) 02.25.52 Quit XavierGr () 02.27.53 Join argumentD [0] (n=argument@wireless-gateway-authenticated.caltech.edu) 02.30.56 Quit nas ("Leaving") 02.33.34 Nick JdGordon|zzz is now known as JdGordon (n=jonno@rockbox/developer/JdGordon) 02.40.52 Join Shaid3 [0] (n=adam@dsl-202-45-112-116-static.VIC.netspace.net.au) 02.40.59 Join HP_Administrator [0] (n=chatzill@cpe-075-182-037-037.sc.res.rr.com) 02.41.14 # hey 02.41.38 Nick HP_Administrator is now known as [FS] (n=chatzill@cpe-075-182-037-037.sc.res.rr.com) 02.41.42 Quit [FS] (Client Quit) 02.42.35 Join ol_schoola [0] (n=meatwad@c-67-167-20-91.hsd1.il.comcast.net) 02.50.29 Quit saratoga22222 ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") 02.50.54 Join robin0800 [0] (n=robin080@cpc2-brig8-0-0-cust394.brig.cable.ntl.com) 02.51.13 Part pixelma 02.52.43 Quit argumentD (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02.56.07 Quit robin0800 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 02.57.49 Quit Shaid (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02.57.49 Nick Shaid3 is now known as Shaid (n=adam@dsl-202-45-112-116-static.VIC.netspace.net.au) 02.58.01 # * kugel has a custom list version with %V-like syntax ready 03.02.10 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 03.07.36 Quit |AhIoRoS| ("Abandonando, see you http://ahioros.vidao2.com") 03.11.51 Join shnee [0] (n=CurtyD13@cpe-75-187-62-136.columbus.res.rr.com) 03.14.26 Part shnee ("Konversation terminated!") 03.29.55 Quit framo ("moo") 03.35.09 Quit DerDome (Nick collision from services.) 03.35.10 Join DerDom1 [0] (n=DerDome@dslb-082-083-235-043.pools.arcor-ip.net) 03.35.20 Nick DerDom1 is now known as DerDome (n=DerDome@dslb-082-083-235-043.pools.arcor-ip.net) 03.39.08 Join shnee [0] (n=CurtyD13@cpe-75-187-62-136.columbus.res.rr.com) 03.41.13 Join joshin_ [0] (n=joshin@VDSL-130-13-184-242.PHNX.QWEST.NET) 03.41.19 # JdGordon: ping 03.43.28 # JdGordon: What happened to your idea of "viewportifying" quickscreen? Was a bit quite after your (horrible :) ) commit some weeks ago. Even though, quickscreen with viewports would be nice (escpecially since I want to make the quickscreen consistent with the (custom) list, see FS#8799) 03.46.04 Join ctaylorr [0] (n=ctaylorr@bas1-toronto43-1279529752.dsl.bell.ca) 03.46.29 Join kushal_12_27_200 [0] (n=kushal@12.169.180.134) 03.52.30 Quit joshin (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 03.53.59 Join divadevidonut [0] (i=divadevi@gateway/tor/x-c505ec10fa5261f1) 03.54.39 Quit BobShield (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03.59.56 Join piga [0] (n=leonardo@200-161-98-144.dsl.telesp.net.br) 04.05.13 Join miepchen^schlaf_ [0] (n=miepchen@p54BF4166.dip.t-dialin.net) 04.10.18 Quit ctaylorr (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04.11.05 Join MarcGuay [0] (n=d8ef54e2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-68173872802ef851) 04.14.06 Quit basti (Remote closed the connection) 04.15.26 Join basti [0] (i=bnc@85.214.109.173) 04.16.31 Quit MarcGuay ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)") 04.16.45 Join MarcGuay [0] (n=d8ef54e2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-e934b99552d35c05) 04.17.34 Quit MarcGuay (Client Quit) 04.17.36 Join MarcGuay [0] (n=d8ef54e2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-31ce179ec589f2bd) 04.19.08 Quit MarcGuay (Client Quit) 04.20.22 Join MarcGuayArg [0] (n=d8ef54e2@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-5568d0daa397febf) 04.21.07 Quit miepchen^schlaf (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04.25.40 Quit divadevidonut ("Leaving") 04.25.50 Quit MarcGuayArg ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)") 04.45.05 Join digger [0] (n=4ab678c1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-38df34dd9ff9fee8) 04.45.19 # hey can someone help me 04.45.29 # can someone help me 04.46.26 # not if you dont ask a question... 04.46.34 # i have a ipod nano 2cd gen 04.46.40 # and i cant seem to get it to work 04.46.56 # did you look at the front page? 04.47.00 # no 04.47.17 # you didnt even look at www.rockbox.org? 04.47.36 # yea at the builds but nano 2cd gen isnt on there 04.47.46 # look at www.rockbox.org ... 04.48.23 # so it dont work with 2cd gen nanos 04.48.33 # right 04.48.44 # is there any other things like rockbox that do 04.48.48 # no 04.48.53 # that bullshit 04.48.55 # thanks 04.48.58 # ... 04.49.04 # umm are they wokring on 2cd gen nanos? 04.49.28 # no "they" arent...it doesnt quite work like that 04.49.45 # well thanks for the help ill try and trade with my sister she has a first gen 04.49.56 # people with the device and the ability come forward and do the port 04.50.29 Quit digger ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") 04.56.17 Quit piga ("Leaving") 05.02.13 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 05.05.25 Quit JdGordon (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 05.06.10 Join JdGordon [0] (n=jonno@c211-28-95-90.smelb1.vic.optusnet.com.au) 05.13.59 Join Bl2 [0] (n=Vitanova@bas1-toronto63-1088773478.dsl.bell.ca) 05.14.11 Part Bl2 05.19.42 Join quitte_ [0] (n=quitte@stgt-d9bea989.pool.mediaWays.net) 05.33.15 Join herbi [0] (n=herbinet@75.201.233.220.exetel.com.au) 05.33.17 # hi guys 05.33.27 # is there a bpm counter plugin for rockbox? 05.37.37 Quit quitte (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 05.38.42 Quit Horscht ("http://www.geisterfahrer.org") 05.55.19 Quit kugel ("ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox 2.0.0.12/2008020710]") 06.06.00 Quit techhelper1 (Remote closed the connection) 06.08.16 Join jhulst_ [0] (n=jhulst@unaffiliated/jhulst) 06.08.16 Quit jhulst (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 06.09.17 Join Insectoid [0] (n=q@adsl-072-148-075-054.sip.gnv.bellsouth.net) 06.10.42 # iPOD video 5g, empty configuration file with voice. Whenever I attempt adding a directory to playlist (context menu, add...) the player locks up and when I check it in windows, the .playlist_control file is empty. 06.11.21 # The drive continues to hum, but no sound of reading, just the high-pitched drive powered sound 06.12.45 # So far I've run chkdsk /R on the device, and also jkdefrag... I didn't expect anything but I figured it wouldn't hurt. 06.19.36 Join csc` [0] (n=csc@archlinux/user/csc) 06.30.24 Join csc`` [0] (n=csc@archlinux/user/csc) 06.33.27 Quit csc` (Nick collision from services.) 06.33.29 Nick csc`` is now known as csc` (n=csc@archlinux/user/csc) 06.43.42 Join toffe82 [0] (n=chatzill@adsl-70-137-196-28.dsl.frs2ca.sbcglobal.net) 06.55.23 Quit csc` ("Powering Off") 06.56.50 Join csc` [0] (n=csc@archlinux/user/csc) 06.57.03 Quit Insectoid () 07.02.15 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 07.04.04 Nick fxb__ is now known as fxb (n=felixbru@h1252615.stratoserver.net) 07.08.22 Nick miepchen^schlaf_ is now known as miepchen^schlaf (n=miepchen@p54BF4166.dip.t-dialin.net) 07.15.21 Join linuxstb__ [0] (n=linuxstb@i-83-67-212-170.freedom2surf.net) 07.21.52 Quit corevette (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 07.22.12 Quit midgey () 07.22.39 Join corevette [0] (n=corevett@adsl-75-35-113-7.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) 07.26.21 Quit linuxstb (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07.26.40 Join linuxstb [0] (n=linuxstb@rockbox/developer/linuxstb) 07.29.04 Quit linuxstb_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07.32.51 Part toffe82 07.32.52 Quit Zom (Remote closed the connection) 07.33.03 Join Zom [0] (n=zom@h-43-44.A166.cust.bahnhof.se) 07.33.06 Join daurnimator [0] (i=daurn@unaffiliated/daurnimator) 07.43.52 Nick fxb is now known as fxb__ (n=felixbru@h1252615.stratoserver.net) 07.51.59 Quit Shaid (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08.04.44 Quit miepchen^schlaf () 08.07.28 Quit BigBambi (Remote closed the connection) 08.08.17 Join corevette_ [0] (n=corevett@adsl-75-18-200-50.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) 08.09.11 Quit perrikwp ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client") 08.10.27 Quit corevette (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08.27.54 Join Rob2223 [0] (n=Miranda@p4FDCFD79.dip.t-dialin.net) 08.33.22 Quit corevette_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08.37.59 Quit shnee ("Konversation terminated!") 08.43.54 Quit DerDome (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08.45.44 Join davina [0] (n=davina@cpc1-sout6-0-0-cust616.sotn.cable.ntl.com) 08.46.32 Quit Rob2222 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08.50.25 Join Buschel [0] (n=AndreeBu@p54A3D946.dip.t-dialin.net) 08.51.26 Join ender` [0] (i=krneki@84-255-206-8.static.t-2.net) 08.51.43 Quit chrisjs169 (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 08.59.17 Join LinusN [0] (n=linus@rockbox/developer/LinusN) 09.00.01 Join Bagderr [0] (n=daniel@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-aa5df7778bfadffa) 09.01.58 Quit cool_walking_ (Remote closed the connection) 09.02.20 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 09.03.00 Join Mathiasdm [0] (n=Mathias@d54C597B6.access.telenet.be) 09.07.52 Join corevette [0] (n=corevett@adsl-75-18-212-2.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) 09.22.20 Join petur [50] (n=petur@rockbox/developer/petur) 09.22.34 Join disorganizer [0] (n=c2785409@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-11618c9d98d8b645) 09.23.24 # morning 09.26.09 # moin 09.26.23 # good morning 09.27.28 # * petur is still a bit pissed for riding at work without music - r16830 crashed on WPS loading. Current svn seems to have fixed it... 09.27.47 # rockbox sucks! 09.28.11 # LinusN: it sure does! 09.28.16 # I didn't even manage to make it sound like a bag of shit 09.28.39 # LinusN: are you going to skip the meizu fun? 09.28.58 # i'm seriously considering buying one 09.29.11 # if i only could buy me some time as well :-) 09.29.59 # * petur would love to have a peek at the iriver E100 if he had any time :/ 09.30.13 # according to kgb2008 there are 2 versions of the M6SL with different LCD modules: http://www.meizume.com/rockbox/5567-rockbox-project-m6-21.html#post58962 09.30.45 # I couldn't find the datasheet for the S6D0154 yet 09.31.44 # the strange thing is that it seems to be for a 320x240 panel, while the S6D0129/139 is for a 240x320 panel 09.34.01 # is that philips? 09.34.26 Quit Buschel () 09.37.19 # the lcd driver is samsung 09.39.04 Quit GodEater (Remote closed the connection) 09.40.37 Nick linuxstb__ is now known as linuxstb_ (n=linuxstb@i-83-67-212-170.freedom2surf.net) 09.45.47 Join ch4os_ [0] (n=ch4os@unaffiliated/ch4os/x-059673) 09.46.51 Quit disorganizer ("CGI:IRC") 09.47.37 # LinusN: at least I could find the LCD init for that chip in the firmware: http://130.89.160.166/rockbox/s6d0154.txt 09.48.49 # i just requested a datasheet from samsung 09.48.51 # the other 3 are here: http://www.meizume.com/rockbox/5567-rockbox-project-m6-13.html#post57835 09.49.31 # I have the one of the S6D0129 09.56.50 Join GodEater [0] (i=c2cbc962@rockbox/staff/GodEater) 09.58.09 Join disorganizer [0] (n=57b2711f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-36426d81bacf3299) 09.59.33 Quit csc` ("Powering Off") 10.07.12 Join tvelocity [0] (n=tony@athedsl-4425001.home.otenet.gr) 10.08.18 Join gevaerts [0] (n=fg@195-144-092-144.dyn.adsl.xs4all.be) 10.10.39 # LinusN: does the LCD init sequence for the M6TP look familiar? http://www.meizume.com/rockbox/5567-rockbox-project-m6-13.html#post57835 10.12.56 # not really 10.16.08 Join pondlife [50] (n=Steve@rockbox/developer/pondlife) 10.25.35 # markun: Why is that strange? Using an lcd controller + panel "rotated" seems to be a common thing looking at our targets... 10.25.58 # amiconn: but using 2 different orientations in the same firmware.. 10.26.20 # gevaerts: there? 10.26.24 # The ipod color also has 2 very different lcd controllers 10.26.57 # Plus, using different orientations doesn't necessarily mean a different framebuffer layout. Most newer lcd controllers have switchable update directions 10.27.36 # I didn't find such an option in the S6D0129 datasheet, but I might have missed it 10.27.55 # or do you mean the LCD controller part in the SoC? 10.28.26 # LinusN: yes 10.28.40 # regarding the memory address contention theory 10.29.14 # * gevaerts listens, hoping to gain new insights 10.29.28 # i don't know an awful lot about the portallayer, but is there a separate code and data cache? 10.29.35 # portalplayer 10.29.46 # it's unified, isn't it? 10.30.43 # I'm not sure, but I didn't find any mention of separation in MrH's memory controller document 10.31.02 # i was thinking what would cause the contention 10.31.25 # 8KB unified cache, per core 10.31.32 # first of all, we could have the wrong dma priority 10.31.50 # * pondlife wonders if any decision on date/location of DevCon2008 (Euro) will occur. 10.31.59 # * LinusN too 10.32.03 # Calling all Swedish Dictators.... 10.32.24 # i was under the impression that the Berlin maffia was investigating 10.32.51 # Date is more critical for me, really. 10.32.53 # if not, i don't see any problem with having it in stockholm once again 10.33.01 # I can do either Berlin or Stockholm 10.33.31 # gevaerts: do you have a clue to what code is executed the most in usb mode? 10.33.32 # Would slightly prefer Stockholm as (a) I've never been and (b) it's the Home Of Rockbox 10.33.58 Join tvelocity_ [0] (n=tony@athedsl-4423043.home.otenet.gr) 10.34.01 # pondlife: don't expect to see much of stockholm during the devcon :) 10.34.02 # "Stockholm - the home of Rockbox" - has a certain ring to it 10.34.17 # i'll call the mayor 10.34.28 # markun: Haha, that's not a problem... I just like seeing new airports. 10.34.30 # LinusN: from what I can see, only the tick handlers and (if the code uses double buffering) the ata driver 10.34.41 Quit disorganizer ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)") 10.35.05 # I would prefer Berlin I think 10.35.05 # gevaerts: what if the scheduler ran in IRAM? 10.35.33 # Hmm, looking at http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=16108.0 - shouldn't "Show Files - Supported" include video files? 10.36.03 # gevaerts: it could be that the ATA register accesses are synchronized, and has a bad impact on the bus 10.37.12 # * petur could go by car to Berlin and pick up markun on the way ;) 10.37.30 # that would be even better :) 10.37.34 # LinusN: ATA (or SD for sansa) does contribute to the problem, but it's not the only cause. And while putting the scheduler in IRAM might help, I doubt if it's a good solution in the long term 10.37.38 # or we can go to stockholm by car ;) 10.38.07 # whoa 10.38.24 # gevaerts: so maybe dma priority is the issue then 10.38.28 # * petur found tickets for Stockholm for 10 euro :) 10.38.31 # * gevaerts volunteers to share that car as well if the date is possible 10.38.53 # rockbox roadtrip 10.39.04 # * petur adds taxes and ends up at 98,57 euro - still not bad 10.39.21 # markun: trunk full of beer ;) 10.39.21 Join pixelma [50] (i=pixelma@rockbox/staff/pixelma) 10.39.23 Join chrisjs169 [0] (n=chrisjs1@pool-71-114-112-135.hrbgpa.dsl-w.verizon.net) 10.39.36 # Rockbox Euro Tour 2008 10.39.51 # LinusN: I think it's something like that, but I have no clue on how to solve it (or even where to look). The USB controller doesn't seem to use the portalplayer "sidma" engine (or at least we don't configure it - maybe that's the problem) 10.39.55 # * pondlife probably can't make any date before July 19th now... :/ 10.40.07 # ouch 10.40.29 # Either that or 2nd May :) 10.40.46 # I'm assuming it's a Friday-Sunday thing, as normal. 10.44.24 # there was a change by amiconn to the DevCon2008 page yesterday... 10.44.27 Quit chrisjs169 (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 10.44.57 # * gevaerts runs to the wiki to have a look 10.45.37 # "Have free hosting location" 10.45.39 # :) 10.48.08 # * gevaerts promises to buy everyone at the DevCon a beer if the date is decided this week 10.48.33 # * pondlife decides on a date 10.48.39 # Can I have my beer please? 10.48.46 # beer! 10.48.55 # beeeeeer! 10.49.03 # pondlife: not _a_ date, _the_ date 10.49.06 # * petur gets overloaded by triggers 10.49.13 # gevaerts: Pedant :p 10.49.59 # * pondlife would hope petur has a suitable sound associated with his beer trigger 10.51.02 Quit tvelocity (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10.51.03 Join handmadematters [0] (n=handmade@dslb-084-056-191-177.pools.arcor-ip.net) 10.51.30 # Bagderr: did you get any thinking done since last may? :) http://svn.rockbox.org/viewvc.cgi?view=rev&revision=13415 10.52.18 # haha 10.52.31 # that's fallen into a large black hole 10.53.10 # but yeah, I should pick up that issue again and see what I can do about it 10.53.12 Quit HellDragon (Connection timed out) 10.53.48 # GodEater: was my little rant about using "not supported" instead of "doesn't run" in the "ipodpatcher.exe..." thread too subtle? ;\ 10.53.55 # like my project manager said, "It's on my list of priorities" 10.54.05 # * pondlife adds a potentially controversial discussion point to the wiki 10.54.23 # Isnt RbUtil running on OSX 10.4 ??? As far as i remember i saw something like min version 10.4 in the Subversion log 10.54.43 # *more* playlist-centric? 10.54.51 # * LinusN revokes pondlife's wiki write access 10.55.56 # pixelma: where did I screw up ? 10.58.17 # http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=15859 (I think it' important) 10.58.54 # I didn't post there did I? 10.59.26 # no but you used it http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=16019.msg120497#msg120497 10.59.27 # * gevaerts proposes to change the playlist into an "action list", so e.g. changing the volume will be done by inserting a "change volume action" at the appropriate point in this list. This will enormously simplify the GUI 11.00.11 # pixelma: right - but there I was quoting one of the previous posters... 11.00.19 # GodEater: or do you disagree? 11.00.29 Join HellDragon [0] (i=jd@unaffiliated/helldragon) 11.00.37 # * gevaerts puts on his "don't take me too seriously" shirt 11.01.52 # * GodEater clarifies his post. 11.02.13 # gevaerts: Playlists should ultimately support videos, why not also cfg files? 11.02.17 # :) 11.02.24 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 11.02.59 # pixelma: is that better ? 11.03.02 Join Thundercloud [0] (n=thunderc@84-51-130-71.judith186.adsl.metronet.co.uk) 11.03.06 # Actually, now that you mention it, that might be useful in some circumstances (e.g. ) 11.03.35 # gevaerts: Switching shuffle on and off...? 11.03.56 # Imagine a playlist that tells itself to shuffle... ;) 11.04.07 # On second thoughts, don't. 11.04.19 # GodEater: yes, thanks 11.04.31 # handmadematters: it should run on any version since 10.4 11.04.48 # * gevaerts was thinking more along the lines of changing the WPS and/or backdrop to suit the currently playing music. Much more powerful than this 'album art' thing 11.05.42 # Either way, the current UI has evolved such that the playlist viewer is rather peripheral. Stuff like it not working with iTunes filenames are important I think. 11.06.22 # Which comes back to how we deal with playlists generally - generation of big playlists could be speedier I hope. 11.09.25 Join DerPapst [0] (n=DerPapst@p5B23D6A9.dip.t-dialin.net) 11.09.55 # * DerPapst wonders when gevaerts idea makes it into flyspray as a request... 11.11.59 # * Bagderr wonders how much longer we will have a feature-request tracker 11.13.24 # can anyone think of a recent feature request being filed that was useful to us? 11.13.30 # * DerPapst suggest to sut it down it and add all requests to the gsoc08 page, removing the red on top of the page. 11.13.41 # *shut even 11.15.34 # Bagderr: I agree the feature tracker has become useless, but I wouldn't like to lose it completely - e.g. if someone mentions (e.g. in the forums, mailing lists or IRC) a good idea, we should be able to keep track of it somehow. 11.15.52 # Would limiting feature requests to devs be a bad idea? 11.16.06 # * linuxstb runs 11.16.18 Quit linuxstb_ (Remote closed the connection) 11.16.31 # people will keep making requests. even with that limitation. Either as bug or as patch 11.17.10 Join Shaid [0] (n=adam@124-168-57-104.dyn.iinet.net.au) 11.17.14 # Can we add a "feature requests" section to the forum that is invisible to the devs ? 11.17.51 # hehehe 11.20.05 # Yep, keep the FR option so people don't clog up the bug tracker. 11.20.25 Join disorganizer [0] (n=c2785409@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-05ca2a01d0dfdf0d) 11.20.42 # maybe auto-reject all feature requests after a week? :-P 11.21.10 # FRs are easy to ignore.... ;) 11.21.18 # just make a bot closing them stating "this features is not work the effort and binary size" 11.21.20 # I think we already pretty much ignore them 11.21.32 # heh 11.22.24 # I can see the tracker being useful for devs adding ideas so that they aren't forgotten, I see no use at all for Joe User to submit random wild thoughts 11.22.38 # but to be honest: why not run a script once a day closing every feature request which did not get an answer within a week? 11.22.52 # disorganizer: Because good ideas would get lost? 11.23.03 # It's for long-term storage of ideas 11.23.04 # no, you can also see closed threads 11.23.15 # I think limiting it to allow devs only to submit them would be good enough 11.23.38 # Although that might result in more invalid bug reports being filed... 11.24.00 # ..which I guess we can deal with, but not say "log an FR". 11.24.12 # but there also good ideas may be lost just because someone is a non-dev. propably having feature-request being filed by users via the forum and devs being able to put them on the tracker if seen fit would be the best idea? 11.24.12 # I see two reasons : (1) if a dev adds an idea just to remember it, it's pretty likely that it won't get a comment soon, and (2) that would be asking for duplicates. At least now some people search the list and add a comment to an existing entry 11.24.49 # auto-closing seems pointless to me 11.25.12 # * gevaerts was talking about why not to auto-close, in case that wasn't clear 11.25.24 # Does Flyspray know who's a dev? 11.25.31 # yes 11.25.42 # * JdGordon rudly barges in on the convo :p 11.25.45 Nick disorganizer is now known as dis_afk (n=c2785409@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-05ca2a01d0dfdf0d) 11.25.59 # there are "groups" in flyspray and each user has one assigned to them 11.26.00 # JdGordon: That wasn't rude, that was useful 11.26.09 # * pixelma wanted to just comment on a feature request but then decides to close the task... 11.26.10 # only devs are allowed to close tasks etc 11.27.10 # * gevaerts points out that the dev groups on forum, svn and fs are not synchronised automatically 11.27.21 # or at all? 11.27.30 # Bagderr: what do you think about adding a "HAVE_ATA" instead of checking for model numbers in firmware/SOURCES? 11.27.55 # pondlife: On a note relating to something you said earlier, I really would kinda like to see playlists allowing any "supported" file type as long as it didn't break playlist auto-creation (auto-creation should still be restricted to things for which there are .codecs I think, or possibly have a mode setting between the two). 11.27.56 # sounds like an improvement to me 11.28.17 # Llorean: That was gevaerts' idea, I should point out! 11.28.24 # But yes, I agree with you 11.28.27 # (that was for markun) 11.28.41 # * gevaerts puts rockbox.mi4 in his playlist 11.28.53 # pondlife: Well, he mentioned WPSes in it. You mentioned videos. 11.29.07 # At least, that I saw in the logs on my tiny phone screen. 11.29.15 # Long term, I'd hope videos would become codecs too. 11.29.49 Join DerPapst060 [0] (n=DerPapst@p5B23D505.dip.t-dialin.net) 11.29.49 # Llorean: .txt and .mu3 in a playlist? 11.29.59 Quit DerPapst (Nick collision from services.) 11.30.05 # JdGordon: If users want to, sure. I can't think of a real use for .txt, but I wouldn't mind .m3u 11.30.09 Nick DerPapst060 is now known as DerPapst (n=DerPapst@p5B23D505.dip.t-dialin.net) 11.30.23 # m3u with recursion...? 11.30.35 # That could get tricky 11.30.36 # You can already "insert" a .m3u, and get all the songs within it. 11.30.58 # Which is enough, IMHO. 11.31.36 # Well, there's a feature request for including folders, which i suppose would be dynamically expanded on playlist load. 11.31.36 # What if this second .m3u contains the first one ? 11.32.07 # I'd say including a .m3u should include expansion on load as well. (And should not be able to be recursed, so remember filenames of .m3us loaded) 11.32.40 # Though not expanding them on load, would be another means of handling shuffling albums without using database... 11.34.45 # pondlife: I'll settle for directories and extm3u support though. :-P 11.34.55 # sub-playlists need to be thought about, but I think that it would be a good thing to allow basically any supported file type to be included in a playlist. Whether the UI allows them all is a different question 11.36.16 # * gevaerts dreams about automated bug finding through playlist-triggered RoLo 11.37.19 # Llorean: This is actually a distraction from my point. I think the UI is too browser-centric where it should be playlist-centric. This is a personal opinion, of course; I wouldn't want to prevent the existing setup from being used. 11.37.36 # pondlife: More playlist centric in what way? 11.38.10 # I'd like to be able to have the playlist viewer as my main screen, and also think it should handle tags (not rely on filenames) 11.38.19 # Handling tags is a difficulty. 11.38.24 # Why not EXTM3U? 11.38.33 # It seems a hidden, unloved cousin at the moment 11.38.40 # When Rockbox creates a playlist, it can embed tags as EXTM3U data anyway. 11.38.59 # EXTM3U would be a solution. 11.39.26 # The playlist creation is rather slow at the moment anyway, so it might all need rework 11.39.45 # I don't see IAUDIO_7 defined anywhere 11.40.53 # pondlife: A couple things I'd like to see about playlists, while we're at it: It marks an item as "the currently playing item" when playback is stopped, I think. This is bad (especially since it doesn't mark the resume point anyway). 11.40.55 # since cabbiev2 is the default theme now, do people think the default background/foreground colours should be black/white? 11.41.45 # Llorean: Stoped or not should make minimal difference to the playlist 11.41.49 # pondlife: And if the playlist is going to be still visible while stopped, the "Insert" option should actually *insert* in the visible playlist, and "Play Now" should be the new first option on the insert menu to preserve old behaviour. 11.42.02 # pondlife: Well, used to be there was no "playlist" while stopped. 11.42.04 # Yes 11.42.07 # Now there is. 11.42.12 # Or rather, there sorta is. 11.42.13 # There definitely should bne 11.42.13 # barrywardell: na, leave them as is 11.42.22 # s/bne/be 11.42.22 # markun: that port hasn't gotten anywhere so it could very well still have basic flaws 11.42.33 # pondlife: I don't see how there's a "Current" playlist while stopped. 11.42.35 # JdGordon: why? 11.42.41 # Llorean: Why not? 11.42.42 # for the purists :p 11.42.43 # I'd like the option to be renamed "Previous Playlist" 11.42.53 # Still current 11.42.54 # Because right now, "Insert" inserts in an empty playlist. 11.43.06 # So the actual behaviour of the OS conflicts with the current designation. 11.43.13 # That would change - we discussed before 11.43.15 # Basically, things need to make up their mind one way or another. 11.43.20 # Exactly 11.43.29 # But is there a "Current" song when stopped then? 11.43.33 # Yess 11.43.38 # It's just not playing 11.43.43 # Press play and it resumes 11.43.56 # So there's a current song, and song position at all times. 11.44.12 # IF a playlist ends, then there is no current song 11.44.37 # Currently it's a bit confused 11.44.45 # That seems kinda silly to me. You can "resume" a bookmark too, but it's not "current" 11.45.18 # Resuming a bookmark just sets up the corresponding playlist and position 11.45.27 # So does resuming by way of the play button. 11.45.37 # Yes, into the current playlist 11.45.43 # Into the last used playlist. 11.45.56 # semantics... call it current... 11.46.16 # Stop doesn't destroy a playlist though 11.46.21 # This whole discussion was *on* semantics in the first place, I asked if "Current" was a valid term. 11.46.22 # Starting a new one does 11.46.24 # No, stop shuts down playback. 11.46.36 # If you close Winamp, do you still have a current playlist? 11.46.46 # No idea 11.46.49 # I don't use winamp 11.46.57 Quit Nevtus (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 11.47.03 # If you close media player X, do you still have a current playlist when it's not running? 11.47.04 # But I would like to start it up and have it resume where I last wa 11.47.05 # s 11.47.16 # Llorean: Yes, I do 11.47.22 # pondlife: winamp does that I think 11.47.41 Join Nevtus [0] (n=Nevtus@unaffiliated/nevtus) 11.47.51 # I dion't see a need to clear the current playlist until you start a new one. 11.48.02 # nor me 11.48.05 # e.g. by selecting in a browser or loading a new one 11.48.45 # There's not a "need" to misname it though, either. 11.48.58 # If you call it "Previous", people know it's not running right now. It makes it clear playback is stopped. 11.49.04 # Bagderr: ok to commit? http://130.89.160.166/rockbox/have_ata.diff 11.49.06 # No, that's the point 11.49.12 # I'm not saying it shouldn't be cleared, I'm discussing the nomenclature. 11.49.14 # It is still current, but stopped 11.49.20 # It's also Previous. 11.49.24 # Previous could refer to the one before that 11.49.27 # It is not active. 11.49.38 # Current, but not active. 11.49.39 # Okay, if I press stop, no song is playing. 11.49.40 # markun: looks fine, shoot! 11.49.47 # So, the song that was previously playing is the "previously playing song" 11.49.48 # until it gets cleared, I'd call it current 11.49.57 # And the playlist that was previously running was the "previously running playlist" 11.50.00 # I modified the source tarball script, I need a commit to see how it works ;-) 11.50.04 # Yes, but the playlist is still active and valid 11.50.09 Join webguest78 [0] (n=1485000d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-cbc1e320d954809c) 11.50.14 # It's valid, but not active. 11.50.22 # it is playback which has become inactive 11.50.23 # I think current song and current playlist are easier terms 11.50.24 # not the playlist 11.50.29 # Bagderr: I just wandered if MMC and ATA could exist in the same device. The #else makes it impossible. 11.50.35 # wondered even 11.50.53 Quit webguest78 (Client Quit) 11.50.58 # pondlife: In what way. While we remember that they're there, they are not in use, right now. That's kinda what current means: right now, active. 11.51.00 # markun: the only mmc devices are the ondios afaik 11.51.13 # They are not in use. 11.51.18 # That's explicitly what stop DOES, it stops using them. 11.51.19 # it's still there 11.51.23 # Pause leaves it in use. 11.51.31 # GodEater: It's always there, on disk, somewhere. 11.51.39 # it's also still in memory 11.51.43 # Bagderr: don't we have players with sdcard slots? 11.51.45 # JdGordon: by "for the purists" you mean nostalgic reasons? In that case I'll leave it 11.52.05 # markun: we think the Tatung Elio is the only player with an sdcard slot 11.52.08 # Stop and pause should behave the same in this regard. Although the UI stays on the WPS for pause. 11.52.17 # GodEater: Only in a temporary sense. If you "Insert" a single song, it clears. 11.52.28 # pondlife: No, "Stop" needs to clear the playback buffer for other features to work. 11.52.53 # Users should know that there are distinct differences between "Stopped" and "Paused", and distinct naming between things helps illuminate this. 11.52.56 # Yes, but that will be changed into 2 options "Insert into new playlist" (first) and "Insert into current playlist" 11.53.01 # Llorean: but if I choose to save it, it doesn't get cleared, and is therefore still current 11.53.40 # There is generally always a current playlist - it might be dynamic or saved, but it's always there. Except when you just installed Rockbox. 11.53.43 # GodEater: It's inactive until you resume it. 11.54.15 # markun: still, I don't think your patch makes that any worse, it still clarifies the situation 11.54.19 # no, playback is inactive 11.54.23 # pondlife: Okay, I've explained how "Current" can confuse users. Explain how "Previous" could confuse users? 11.54.28 # sorry, I completely agree with pondlife here... 11.54.42 # I think of previous as the playlist I was listening to before the current one 11.54.47 # People commonly ask how to clear their playlist. If they knew it was actually inactive while stopped, it would help. 11.54.52 # previous...current... next 11.55.15 # If you've stopped playback, the one you were previously listening to, as you ARE NOT listening right now, was what was "Current" when you were listening. 11.55.16 # Assuming you mean on insert, if the option read "Insert into new playlist" it would be clear 11.55.25 # It's called "time", and it doesn't pause when you hit "stop" 11.55.35 # Llorean: I might stop for a phone call.. 11.55.44 # Then hit the pause button... 11.55.57 # Pause doesn't work with voice 11.56.02 Quit DerPapst (Nick collision from services.) 11.56.11 # pondlife: That's a problem that needs fixing, not a reason for naming things. 11.56.17 # True 11.56.18 Quit barrywardell () 11.56.19 # How can "In the past" be "Current" 11.56.21 Part handmadematters 11.56.22 # It's a contradiction in terms. 11.56.24 # It's not in the past 11.56.27 # It's still there 11.56.29 # You've shut down the playback engine. 11.56.36 # but the playlist hasn't gone anywhere 11.56.36 Join DerPapst [0] (n=DerPapst@p5B23EA42.dip.t-dialin.net) 11.56.37 # The playlist is a definition of the files the playback engine goes through 11.56.42 # It is not used by the rest of the OS 11.56.57 # The Playlist Viewer has the capability of showing you and allowing you to manipulate the previous playlist if playback is stopped. 11.57.03 # Yes, and those files are still there. pressing play shouldn't even need to read the disk. 11.57.16 # GodEater: It's *gone*. Just because you bring can bring it back instantly doesn't mean it isn't gone until you do. 11.57.24 # If you think of it as the current playlist, it makes much more sense 11.57.35 # it's not gone, it's still there in the playlist viewer 11.57.49 # We're not switching back and forth here, we're dealing with the same entity. 11.58.00 # It's still current until you start a new one 11.58.15 # pondlife: It has to reload from disk when you hit resume, so I don't understand your "shouldn't" 11.58.36 Join PaulJam [0] (n=PaulJam_@p54BCF9AF.dip.t-dialin.net) 11.58.38 # It shouldn't need to, that's just a weakness in the current code 11.58.45 # pondlife: By that logic, any text file I close is "the one I'm currently working on" until I start a new one, be it weeks later. It's silly 11.59.11 # STOP != CLOSE 11.59.22 # You're closing the playback system 11.59.30 # My whole point is that users need to *see* that it's being closed. 11.59.43 # But that makes Rockbox less flexible 11.59.51 # NAMING makes rockbox less flexible? 12.00.00 # Because other things depend on playback being closed down, so the distinction between stop and pause needs to be illustrated, not swept under the rug. 12.00.06 Join handmadematters [0] (n=handmade@dslb-084-056-191-177.pools.arcor-ip.net) 12.00.16 # What other things? 12.00.19 Part handmadematters 12.00.22 # Anything that needs the audio buffer. 12.00.38 # Several plugins, changing settings that require claiming more RAM, etc. 12.00.43 # Yes, but that's just a coding thing. The playlist remains. 12.01.08 # So, there's nothing currently playing, but there is a current playlist? 12.01.12 # yes 12.01.20 # Naming is just to make things clearer 12.01.26 # And calling it the "previously playing playlist" is too confusing for users? 12.01.27 # I can do the same thing in any number of media players 12.01.34 # hitting stop does no clear the playlist, it's still there. 12.01.47 # Let's take it to the users. "If you press stop, is the list you were listening to the current playlist, or the previous one?" 12.02.14 # I don't see how you can HAVE a previous one until you have a new current one. 12.02.19 # Find out which is least confusing to the masses, because I think your naming makes the distinction less obvious, and fuzzes things. 12.02.32 # The changeover point is when you start a new playlist, surely. 12.02.38 # GodEater: Why do you need a new current file playing to have a previous file playing? 12.02.39 # Not when you press stop 12.02.39 # absolutely 12.02.53 # By that rule, when the playlist ends naturally, it's still "Current" 12.02.59 # Indeed it is 12.03.00 # again yes 12.03.12 # So even though there's "Nothing to Resume" there's a current playlist? 12.03.13 # * Bagderr added the size of the source tarball on the build.rockbox.org listing 12.03.13 # That's absurd. 12.03.18 # no it's not 12.03.27 # I can choose to step back through the playlist without changing it 12.03.27 # No. The playlist is current, but the current song is off the end of the playlist. 12.03.42 # Okay, take THAT to our user base and see how many agree with you. 12.03.45 # Llorean: How much do you use the playlist viewer? 12.03.48 # The current song is not in the current playlist? 12.03.55 # It is 12.04.03 # "The playlist is current, but the current song is off the end of the playlist." 12.04.09 # "off the end" sounds like "outside" or "not in" to me. 12.04.17 # I mean the current song is nothing at that point 12.04.22 # But not outside the playlist 12.04.35 # * Llorean couldn't possibly have known you meant that. 12.04.41 # yes he could 12.04.43 # Sorry 12.04.53 # it was obvious to me at any rate 12.04.54 # GodEater: How was I supposed to know that his words meant other than what they say? 12.05.21 # I just think of the current track and offset as being based in the current playlist. 12.05.34 # So I may have assumed you thought the same. 12.05.34 # which they can't help but be 12.05.41 # Indeed 12.05.58 # So the current song is entry 101 in a 100 entry playlist. 12.06.16 # no 12.06.20 # Perhaps 12.06.22 # Which means the playlist is still active, the song is in the playlist, despite not actually being defined within or by the playlist, and the playlist is current despite the fact that you're not in it? 12.06.33 # there's nothing playing 12.06.41 # So there's no current song. 12.06.44 # there doesnt' have to be a current song for the playlist to no longer remain current 12.06.44 # Yes 12.06.52 # But the playlist is still current 12.07.03 # You could view it and skip backwards to track 100 12.07.07 # Even though you're no longer IN the playlist, nor is it active, nor have you a playlist index? 12.07.17 # pondlife: You can view *any* playlist by selecting it. 12.07.32 # I'm referring to the current one 12.07.33 # only by loading it from disk 12.08.10 # So the fact that the previous playlist is buffered in RAM makes it always "current" even if there's no obvious sign that it's current to the user, up to and including "Nothing to Resume" messages? 12.08.22 # Not even "Go back in the playlist to resume" but actually "Nothing" 12.08.47 # * markun doesn't have a clue what these guys are discussing about 12.08.48 # Like I said, the UI isn't too playlist-centric at the moment, but it should be more. 12.09.10 # Start Menu > Current Playlist or similar would help 12.09.14 Join BigBambi [0] (n=86ceaf40@rockbox/staff/BigBambi) 12.09.17 # Alright chaps 12.09.27 # markun: You forgot to adjust the #endif comment 12.09.39 # amiconn: yes, I did. I'll change it 12.09.44 # Currently it's hidden a bit under Playlists 12.09.46 # pondlfe: Seriously, if we're going to do this, we should see which makes more sense to users. If I'm wrong, and users like "Current" better fine, but I suggest we do ask them "If you hit 'Stop', and music is no longer playing, is what you listened to the Current or Previous playlist" and see which is less confusing (more popular) to them. 12.09.52 # amiconn: I might as well use #elif defined(...) 12.09.57 # Llorean: you're still wrong - I've just had a playlist finish on my player. I got to the playlist menu, and choose "View current", and "oh wow - the playlist is STILL there" 12.09.58 Join MethoS [0] (n=clemens@host-091-096-212-192.ewe-ip-backbone.de) 12.10.06 # For me, it is current 12.10.20 # * DerPapst votes for "curret" too and hides 12.10.25 # GodEater: I never said you couldn't do that. What am I wrong about? 12.10.44 # I think this comes from cassettes for me - the cassette may have stopped but it is still the current one on the machine. Until I play something else, it is current 12.10.52 # Llorean: Put a poll up if you wish, but you won't convince me it's inconsistent at the moment. 12.10.55 # s/on/in 12.11.07 # nor me 12.11.09 # BigBambi: Cassettes, WMP... 12.11.14 # CD players 12.11.20 # pondlife: It's not your opinion I care about. It's "I think users would understand how Rockbox works a little better if it was named this way" 12.11.29 # OK 12.11.31 # pondlife: I understand fully your point of view on the matter. 12.11.39 # And I'm not saying you're wrong, in a purely technical sense. 12.11.44 # I agree with you, but think "Current" is clearer 12.11.52 # I'm saying "you're wrong, in a sense of what functionality is exposed to the user in each state" 12.11.54 # Llorean: well I disagree with you - I think calling something "Previous" when there's nothing replaced it is ridiculous 12.11.59 # pondlife, GodEater: Sure, I just said tapes as that was my earliest form of music 12.12.10 # The point is that "Previous" makes the user think they can't get it back easily 12.12.14 # GodEater: Well tell my "current" girlfriend she's not spending enough time with me then 12.12.17 # Or that they have to do something to get it back 12.12.18 # I don't think the technical sense matters to users 12.12.19 # GodEater: Seriously, that statement on its own, is absurd. 12.12.35 # It is what people use in everyday language, technically correct or not 12.12.41 # pondlife: So if the button said "View Previous Playlist" it would make them think that they'd need to do something other than click it to get there? 12.13.06 # BigBambi: The idea is to make it clear that the playlist is not actually "in use" in the "playback" sense, right now. 12.13.07 # It would make me think of some kind of playlist history 12.13.17 # Llorean: The list is always current until it's replaced by a new one, regardless of playback state 12.13.21 # pondlife: How about "View Inactive Playlist" 12.13.32 # The playlist isn't inactive 12.13.35 # The playback engine is 12.13.37 # sorry the g/f comparison is spurious. You've "cleared" your playlist there. 12.13.37 # Llorean: I understnqd that, I just don't think that users really care 12.14.03 # I know they should care from the point of view that without freeing buffers, certain things won't work 12.14.11 # GodEater: Well, "Queue" and "Insert" functions all treat the playlist as having already been cleared, rather than acting like they do on a populated playlist. 12.14.33 # pondlife: So how will "Inactive" confuse users? 12.14.40 # It's not relevant 12.14.49 # View playlist is fine, surely 12.14.52 # But lets face it, most people couldn't care less how it works, they just want it to work, and we aren't going to change people's use of English to make a technical distinction like that 12.14.56 Join bughunter2 [0] (n=Administ@ip565fbeaa.direct-adsl.nl) 12.15.09 # pondlife: My point is to differentiate more clearly between "Playback Stopped" and "Playback Paused" 12.15.20 # I want to reduce that distinction 12.15.33 # pondlife: When playback is stopped the playlist is Present but Inactive. It is not being used, by or for anything, until you run another program that accesses it such as the viewer. 12.15.34 # Or eliminate it 12.15.37 # Presence != Activity 12.15.43 Part Bagderr 12.15.47 # pondlife: What are you going to do about the playback buffer then? 12.15.55 # Not a lot 12.15.56 # Ignoring technicalites, from a users point of view I don't think the difference between pause and stop should matter at all 12.16.01 # nor me 12.16.02 # pondlife: Then you can't remove that distinction. 12.16.03 # It will rebuffer if it needs to 12.16.13 # It will not rebuffer if the data is present 12.16.16 # That's it. 12.16.24 # The user shouldn't worry 12.16.29 # or care 12.16.33 # Then there's a distinction between Pause and Stop, since Pause will prevent the actions. 12.16.37 # Or will "Pause" still allow the actions? 12.16.45 # And you can end up needing to rebuffer after Paused? 12.16.45 # Pause still allows 12.16.50 # Yes, probably 12.17.15 # So basically, your proposal is "Playback is always active, no matter what" 12.17.18 # Pause is only of use if you need a fast resume AFAICT. 12.17.27 # Llorean: No, not that radical 12.17.32 # That's what you've just described. 12.17.42 # Everything should 'pause', unless a subsequent action requires a 'stop', in which case a 'stop' is performed 12.17.43 # Pause != Stop makes very much sense to me... 12.17.43 # You can Pause, and you can Stop, but they do the same thing: Pause. 12.17.44 # I don't see why that would be a bad thing 12.17.53 # being as how Rockbox is for audio playback primarily 12.18.09 # This is a red herring, not my point at all 12.18.34 # My point is "We should consistently treat a playlist as valid, even after stopping playback. " 12.18.44 # yep 12.18.50 # pondlife: There's a difference between "Inactive" and "Invalid" and it's very distinct. 12.18.54 # i.e. the current playlist continues to live until replaced. 12.19.21 # I don't think we need to pop words like "Inactive" up to tell the user that playback is stopped. 12.19.29 # KISS 12.19.51 # Thing is, from a users point of view, I don't want to have to care about Rockbox internals 12.19.57 # Exactly 12.20.01 # BigBambi: But unfortunately you DO have to care right now. 12.20.04 # * amiconn thinks the current behaviour is perfectly okay and shouldn't be changed 12.20.11 # And as long as you do, we shouldn't go out of the way to *hide* that state from you 12.20.29 # It's almost ok, but should be totally consistent 12.20.32 # We should go out of the way to make it clear though 12.20.40 # BigBambi: Yes, that's what I've been saying... 12.20.45 # it would probably be more obvious if rockbox stayed in the wps when the current playlist has ended 12.20.52 # But clear as in everyday language, not technical special cases 12.20.56 # or when you stop for that matter 12.21.06 # Not sure I like that idea much 12.21.30 # The WPS is a bit of a boring screen with no track 12.21.33 Join Nico_P [50] (n=nicolas@rockbox/developer/NicoP) 12.21.33 # BigBambi: Hiding any distinction between a playlist that is actively being played, and not being played (so the buffer is free) though? 12.21.40 # i probably wouldn't like it either, i'm just saying that it would be more obviuos 12.21.48 # BigBambi: If you feel better language is needed than "Current" vs "Inactive", fine, suggest a replacement. 12.21.53 # Llorean: Sure. 12.22.16 # pondlife: and i think it wouldn't be empty, it would display the last track with 100% played 12.22.20 # Ah, ok 12.22.30 # Why should a user care if the buffer is free or not? If it isn't, and it needs to be, clear it. If not, playback resumes faster 12.22.31 # Might look like it's crashed 12.22.33 # (like many other commercial players do, btw) 12.23.21 # pondlife: I really don't understand what problem you're trying to solve 12.24.26 # There is a current playlist. If it's playing, 'Queue' and 'Insert' act on that one. If it's not playing, these commands start a new playlist. Convenient, and consistent. 12.24.28 # Llorean: Besides, I came in half way through and probably missed the point. I don't have any major issues with the current behaviour myself, I'm just trying to see it from a plain users point of view 12.24.34 # amiconn: i think he tries to address the confusion many users seem to have regarding dynamic playlists 12.24.54 # amiconn: The bugs are elsewhere - try stopping and using View Current Playlist 12.25.14 # (With a big playlist generated from the database.) 12.25.19 # BigBambi: My only point is that "View Current Playlist" could be renamed when playback is stopped to something that makes it clear to the user that things are handled differently in this state, because it's not active (or in-use) at the moment, simply "Available" 12.25.38 # Llorean: I don't think that distinction needs to be made at all. 12.25.43 # It's still Current! 12.25.47 # Pop up your poll 12.25.51 # Yes, of course it's current 12.25.51 # i agree with pondlife 12.25.57 # * BigBambi too 12.25.59 Join roolku [0] (n=roolku@77-99-112-231.cable.ubr16.edin.blueyonder.co.uk) 12.26.13 # In a technological sense, YES. 12.26.13 # It's exactly what I would expect - I see that list that will start playing when I resume 12.26.20 # An a "the way Rockbox handles things from a user perspective" not so much 12.26.24 # amiconn: exactly 12.26.40 # LinusN: ?? I think you agree with pondlife? 12.26.47 # Llorean: but the point pondlife is making is about changing the behaviour to match the language 12.26.51 # amiconn: I get it loading and displaying a list, but with the marker at the wrong place 12.26.51 # you're going the other way round 12.26.58 # LinusN: You can't resume the "Previous" list, once you've stopped? 12.27.16 # Llorean: There is *no* previous list 12.27.24 # i can resume the current list 12.27.29 # GodEater: I'd accept changing the behaviour to match the language. But changing the language to match the behaviour can be done much more quickly, and easily, before then. 12.27.39 # since i can resume it, it is still current 12.27.51 # I guess my main problem is that a lack of clarity is making it tricky for me to know what is a bug and what is not... 12.28.04 # LinusN: So if you resume a movie you'd been watching previously, it's still the movie you're currently watching, even when not watching it? 12.28.15 # yes again 12.28.21 # Llorean: What I think is that it should be called current, but that inserting shouldn't always wipe the playlist - perhaps insert into current and insert into new options would be the answer 12.28.22 # What about a book? 12.28.27 # No, it's the movie that's on the current list 12.28.37 # It's still my current read, even if I stop reading igt. 12.28.38 # it. 12.28.40 # Llorean: Current list != current playing item 12.28.40 # i don't use the dynamic playlists much, but i would expect the "insert" operations to insert into the current list even when stopped 12.28.54 # LinusN: They do 12.28.55 # LinusN: Exactly 12.29.17 # amiconn: If you stop playback, then do insert, you don't get a new playlist? 12.29.20 # How is the list NOT the currently playing item? 12.29.24 # You click on it, and it launches. 12.29.25 Join MethoS- [0] (n=clemens@host-091-096-212-227.ewe-ip-backbone.de) 12.29.36 # These operations always operate on the current list (because there is only one list in ram at all times) 12.29.41 Quit Shaid (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12.29.43 # each song is a sub-item, but the "list" defines what is played. 12.30.19 # amiconn: Currently, "View Current Playlist" shows you a list, but "Insert" while stopped plays a single song. 12.30.21 # It's just that these operations clear the list before inserting when stopped, and don't do that when playing (or paused) 12.30.51 # Llorean: Of course, because "Insert" changes the contents of the list 12.30.52 # amiconn: and that is not what i would expect 12.30.52 # I think there should be obvious options "Insert into new playlist" 12.30.58 # nor me 12.31.01 # Nor me 12.31.09 # * Llorean already said that part. 12.31.11 # pondlife: how about just one option "clear list" 12.31.20 # and then the insert/queue options don't need to be changed 12.31.27 # It's something you can grasp quickly. And it's a very convenient thing for me 12.31.29 # I prefer the "Insert into new " 12.31.35 # I would have too options - insert into current, and create new (or insert into new) 12.31.44 # s/too/two 12.31.44 # Quickerm, and maintains current functionalilty 12.32.08 # It saves having an extra entry in the context menu, or needing extra steps to start a fresh list => convenience 12.32.16 # I agree 12.32.17 # But confusion 12.32.22 # You need a way to clear the list. 12.32.29 # Otherwise you'd need duplicated of several options 12.32.42 # "Insert" "Insert Shuffled" "Queue" and "Queue Shuffled" all need an "Into New" option 12.32.59 # Only "Insert" and "Queue" do... 12.33.05 # No, the shuffled ones are needed 12.33.13 # Insert Shuffled doesn't appear with a new playlist 12.33.16 # Right, insert into new starts a new one with that song, and all others function the same with whatever is the current - either what you have just listened to, or the 'new' one 12.33.18 # Ah, for a folder 12.33.27 # You can't insert a single song shuffled into an empty playlist 12.33.31 # It's very difficult on the playback engine. 12.33.35 # :-P 12.33.38 # * GodEater votes again for one extra entry on the playlist menu just to clear the list 12.33.38 # :P 12.33.49 # If I stop, I don't get the Queue options. 12.34.13 # because the resume point is lost 12.34.15 # pondlife: Then just two more, though I think Queue should be available from stop. 12.34.23 # * GodEater does too 12.34.29 # Exactly, it's currently inconsistent 12.34.36 # * GodEater find himself agreeing with Llorean for the first time in several minutes ;) 12.34.36 # All I want is consistency 12.34.36 Join XavierGr [0] (n=xavier@rockbox/staff/XavierGr) 12.34.51 # (and a working View Playlist) 12.35.02 # GodEater: The single, one, *only* point we've actually disagreed on is if something you're not using right now is "what I'm currently using" or "what i was previously using" 12.35.22 # yes but we disagreed a lot ;) 12.35.24 # Llorean: What about my book analogy? 12.35.39 # Does that work for you - "my current read" 12.35.54 # Even when the book is in the bedside drawer 12.36.07 # pondlife: I'm in the middle of "On Basilisk Station." I was previously reading it (at dinner), but am not currently reading it, as it is not being read, and no reading is taking place (discounting the words on the screen right now, which are not relevant) 12.36.19 # I have been reading it. 12.36.24 # But am not doing so in the present tense. 12.36.35 # It's not your previous read though. 12.36.37 # If someone looked at me, they would see that I am not, in fact, reading the book. 12.36.49 # It's your current book, when you are reading. 12.37.07 # In general parlance. 12.37.08 # I intend to finish it, yes. 12.37.16 # you'd confuse the hell out of me if you told me your previous read was a book that you then proceeded some hours from now to pick up again and continue reading. 12.37.21 # It is the book you are currently reading in an ongoing sense 12.37.24 # Bagder: the download mirrors haven't picked up the m:robe bootloader - it seems to be the same permission problem as last time 12.37.33 # GodEater: I would say "I've been reading " 12.37.52 # Which suggests you are no longer reading said book 12.37.57 # GodEater: I wouldn't say "I am reading " unless you could look over at me and see an open book. At least, not intentionally say that. 12.38.02 # I would 12.38.11 # perfect vs imperfect 12.38.25 # I was reading, I have been reading 12.38.29 # BigBambi: If it's not in my hands, open, then in the present tense, I am not actually reading the book. 12.38.32 # I read 12.38.43 # But it remains your current book 12.38.45 # Llorean: You are in an ongoing sense 12.38.53 # I have been in the past. 12.38.54 # You are not currently reading 12.38.58 # I am not currenlty 12.38.59 # And you will again 12.39.01 # I intend to in the future. 12.39.14 # Llorean: that's because you're odd. *Most* people would say that they were currently reading it. 12.39.22 # GodEater: Perhaps. 12.39.24 # wow English class lessons :) 12.39.26 # Everybody I know would say they are reading it 12.39.38 # And I agree, in common parlance, if you're not being very precise, "I am reading Book" works. 12.39.44 # 'Queue' isn't available when stopped, because playlist manipulation when playback is stopped clears the playlist before doing the actual operation. And you can't queue something in an empty list, so it's consistent as well 12.39.56 # And it is also what the vast majority of the population would say 12.39.57 # But my whole point was that the playback system functions oddly, and we could introduce a distinction in terms to make it clearer, since it's not something likely to be cleared up soon. 12.40.04 # Llorean: the problem with our users is that they are "most people" and are not keen on precision. 12.40.08 # Using "common terms" to *hide* quirks of the system, seems silly to me 12.40.19 # Llorean: In fact, you are the first person I have met who wouldn't say that 12.40.21 # If you use the "common term" for it, they'll expect it to actually work like that. 12.40.22 # We should also get rid of the quirks 12.40.24 # It doesn't, not yet. 12.40.38 # BigBambi: I know. I'm actually diagnosed with something. 12.40.44 # But my point isn't "I expect people to talk my way." 12.40.57 # It was "with precise wording we can make the quirks surprise people less" 12.41.03 # My point neither. My point is that Rockbox should be less quirky 12.41.12 # pondlife: Yes, but why should we hide them until it is? 12.41.13 # But people won't get the nuances in the precise wording 12.41.31 # BigBambi: Thats why you use something as blatant as "Inactive" so people know they can't Insert into it. 12.41.46 # I don't think people expect a DAP to require that level of subtelty of language 12.41.47 # Because it's better just to decide what it should do, then make it do that. 12.41.49 # I wouldn't even do that 12.41.51 Quit Rick (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12.41.52 # Llorean: Imo there is no quirk in the current playlist behaviour at all. 12.41.53 # * BigBambi apologises for that spelling 12.42.08 # if it's inactive, the options to insert shouldn't be made available. 12.42.15 # amiconn: The quirk is that people don't expect to Insert to clear, since it doesn't say it does. 12.42.31 Join Rick [0] (i=rick@pool-71-189-11-16.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) 12.42.35 # Indeed. That should be reworded. 12.42.42 # BigBambi: I don't see "Current" (or "Active") vs "Inactive" as particularly subtle. :-P 12.43.05 Quit jhulst_ (No route to host) 12.43.32 # * BigBambi sticks his tongue out at Llorean 12.43.35 # pondlife: How long do you think it'll be, though, before the rest of the core doesn't care about the difference between stop and pause? Seriously, it's not like the word choice can't be reverted later. 12.43.37 # Then the item name should change when stopped 12.43.51 # Llorean: I'm not calling for that 12.44.20 # ...and not more 12.44.24 # As long as there's a difference between whether the contents of the playlist are in RAM or not, I'd say there's a distinction that should be made clear, somehow, to the user. 12.44.36 # Denoting the "current" playlist as Active or Inactive helps do this. 12.45.11 # But here to me, inactive just suggests that it isn't right at this isntant playing, not that it'll disappear if I try to insert something into it 12.45.18 # The playlist is always still valid after playback is stopped, no need to put extra words in to explain that. 12.45.26 # BigBambi: Yes, but the "Insert" options still need to be changed. 12.45.41 # BigBambi: If it's not, at this instant, playing, that does clue you that things that require the playback buffer can probably use it, right? 12.45.41 # Llorean: Yep :) 12.45.45 # The insert option wording should reflect what it's going to do. 12.45.55 Quit MethoS (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12.46.01 # i.e. When not playing, display it as "Insert into new playlist" 12.46.17 # Llorean: Me yes, users no - most probably have no idea what the playback buffer is, or why it is clear or otherwise 12.46.24 # markun: "Button Code Definitions for the toshiba gigabeat target" 12.46.31 # pondlife: Yes, but there's no reason to intentionally leave one word out that could make the actual state slightly more clear to the user 12.46.50 # But then users will also want "Insert into current playlist", rather than the less-than-obvious action of resuming playback then doing the insertion. 12.47.03 # pondlife: Don't see why they can't have that. 12.47.09 # Me neither 12.47.40 # BigBambi: Well, it'll still help some people. Do you think it could add confusion somewhere? 12.48.19 # Llorean: No, it's a start :) 12.48.24 # my opinion is that the playlist manipulation functions should work regardless of playback state, and that there should be a "clear playlist" function 12.48.26 # LinusN: ouch.. 12.48.45 # didn't want to commit the meizu stuff 12.48.55 # LinusN: Works for me, but I still think the Active/Inactive thing is a valid "clue" for people in regard to knowing whether the RAM is claimed. 12.49.06 # I agree with LinusN! 12.49.37 # i don't think the user cares about any claimed ram 12.50.03 # Some users don't know there's a difference between Stop and Pause. 12.50.13 # and nor should they have to 12.50.14 # Llorean: It can't hurt, but I think the number of people you are helping is very small. Most people couldn't give a monkeys about the state of the RAM, or even that the player has any 12.50.16 # They shouldn't really need to care 12.50.22 # But they *do* need to right now... 12.50.30 # and i'm not sure there should be a difference 12.50.34 # Why shouldn't we fix the UI hints until they don't need to care any more. 12.52.09 # what are the exact differences between Stop and Pause anyway? There is a bug that prevents voice playback in paused mode, but what else? 12.52.29 # When paused the audio buffer can't be used by plugins 12.52.52 # the difference is even more unclear on players without a stop button 12.53.10 # and the "stop" button is a pain to use on the ipod imo 12.53.19 # I don't understand why we can have "Resume Playback" vs "Now Playing" but we can't distinguish in the same way between playlists... 12.53.20 # I often end up shutting down by accident 12.53.21 # Pause resumes instantly as PCM is kept filled 12.53.29 # there is also a difference between stop and pause when using crossfade and selecting a new song. 12.53.36 # Llorean: Because there's no distinction 12.53.47 # pondlife: There's the exact same distinction as between those. 12.53.48 # Llorean: are you sure that the "current" vs "precious" naming is a real issue? 12.53.50 # Stopped or playing, the playlist remains 12.53.55 # previous 12.54.02 # LinusN: I'm trying for "Active" vs "Inactive" now. 12.54.10 # No need for any distinction 12.54.22 # i think there shouldn't be a distiction 12.54.24 # LinusN: My point is to distinguish that playback is not going, at the moment. Much like the "Resume Playback" vs "Currently Playing" entry in the main menu. 12.54.35 # We already distinguish. 12.54.41 # Yes, but that option will change playback state 12.54.49 # Viewing a playlist does not 12.55.09 # Llorean: we distinguish the menu action, not the playlist 12.55.12 Quit DerPapst (Connection timed out) 12.55.25 # the playlist is the same 12.55.29 # the playback state is not 12.55.34 # The playlist isn't being used by playback. 12.55.37 # It's not active. 12.55.49 # No, the playback is inactive, not the playlistr 12.55.53 # it's being used by the user 12.56.03 # pondlife: by that argument, the song is active, but not the playback. 12.56.09 # Indeed 12.56.30 # * markun is making a complete mess today :( 12.56.44 # markun is having a bad svn day 12.56.59 # bad git day even 12.57.03 # "b7bd17ce1715c3a8acbf74a63694c28b6075da5b" ?? 12.57.04 # ah 12.57.07 # pondlife: Then why not permanently make the list entry "Currently Playing"? 12.57.23 # pondlife: Since, by your standards, when Paused or even Stopped, it's Currently Playing 12.57.29 # No 12.57.34 # Current != currently 12.57.52 # The point is that selecting that option will start playback 12.58.00 # Well you said I'm currently reading the book. 12.58.06 # No 12.58.07 # pondlife: It won't if you're Paused. 12.58.09 # Llorean: the playback state is one thing, the playlist is another 12.58.11 # It only resumes playback if you're Stopped 12.58.19 # I said the book is your current read 12.58.33 # Although you are not currently reading it 12.59.24 # What makes it current? 12.59.30 # If I'm paused, the menu option reads "Now Playing", it could also read "Currently Playing" 12.59.34 # That it was the one I most recently used? 12.59.41 # Llorean: you are still using it 12.59.46 # The English language, mainly 12.59.47 # LinusN: Not according to pondlife. 12.59.52 # Yes 13.00.08 # you can for example insert into it, or view it, or resume playback 13.00.15 # Llorean: Please stop putting words in my mouth 13.00.20 # pondlife: You said I'm not reading it. 13.00.25 # What use am I making of it, if not reading? 13.00.43 # I said.... you are not currently reading it. 13.00.50 # It is your current read, however 13.00.57 # Llorean: maybe holding it in your hands while you think about other things before continuing to read again 13.00.57 # English is not logical here 13.01.15 # And I asked "what makes it current", LinusN said "that you are using it" and I said "not according to Pondlife." Am I using it (the only use for it i have is reading) or not? 13.01.17 # english is not my native language, but i do understand pondlife's book analogy perfectly 13.01.35 # You are not currently using it 13.01.39 # Thank you 13.01.42 # Then I put no words into your mouth. 13.02.06 # You are reading it however 13.02.15 # But not currently 13.02.15 # now this discussion is getting silly 13.02.18 # Indeed! 13.02.26 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 13.02.31 # It got silly some hours back 13.02.57 # "(7:01:34 AM) pondlife: But not currently" <-- I thought i was currently doing some sort of verbing with it... 13.03.22 # Anyway, ignore verbs or tenses. 13.03.30 # My point is this: We distinguish between Stop and Pause in the main menu. 13.03.32 # as for the playlist, i think it's simple: the playlist is always the current one, even if you aren't playing it 13.03.33 # The point is the use of the term current in English. 13.03.37 # "Now Playing" while Pause, "Resume Playback" while stopped. 13.03.50 # Indeed, we do. I'm not arguing for a change 13.04.03 # This creates a distinct difference between "Active" and "Inactive" playback, and whether the playlist is _in use_, or merely _current_ 13.04.03 Join qwedsa [0] (n=superman@ip51ccca31.speed.planet.nl) 13.04.22 # The action of selecting that option when stopped resumes playback. Otherwise it does not. Hence different wording. 13.04.26 # I'm not reading the book, but it is my "current read", to use your terms. 13.04.45 # I'm not listening to the playlist, right now, but it is my current playlist. 13.04.49 # Yes 13.04.56 # Why not distinguish between whether it's a Paused playlist or a Stopped playlist then? 13.05.03 # Why bother? 13.05.10 # Why NOT bother? 13.05.17 # KISS? 13.05.21 # What harm is done by adding a small amount more clarity? 13.05.29 # What simplicity is lost? 13.05.31 # More words often reduce clarity 13.05.41 # What clarity is lost, then? 13.06.09 # Why does the user need to have terms like "Stopped playlist" that make no sense. 13.06.24 # A playlist is a playlist, stopped or not 13.08.02 # Playback is simply the iteration through the playlist. If playback is stopped, the playlist is not in use for playback. 13.08.13 # If you aren't viewing it, then nothing is using the playlist. It simply exists, in ram. 13.08.23 # It remains the current playlist. 13.08.29 # Stopped or not, you can distinguish between Active and Inactive. 13.08.33 # No need 13.08.40 # I'm tired of this discussion 13.09.08 # You can't just dismiss it as 'no need' 13.09.19 # Llorean: stop it already 13.09.20 # It's clear that people don't realize there's a difference of state between "Stop" and "Pause" 13.09.21 # I can. I don't see any need at all. 13.09.25 # YOU don't see. 13.09.29 # I don't 13.09.33 # I do. 13.09.38 # Explain why it's important then 13.09.41 # Users do not see a distinction between "Stop" and "Pause" 13.09.57 # So, what's that got to do with the price of fish? 13.10.00 # As long as that distinction exists, more clues in the parts of Rockbox that users see (not the manual) helps make it clear the system is in a different state. 13.10.12 # "Active" and "Inactive" provide such a clue. 13.10.17 # The status bar makes that distinction clear anyway 13.10.27 # no, they provide more terms to confuse users with 13.10.40 # I predict *many* questions from users if such a term is introduced. 13.10.45 # GodEater: Nobody's presented me with how it's confusing yet, and I've asked more than once. 13.11.10 # I don't see a need or an explanation for one 13.11.14 # Llorean: you're addressing a bunch of technical people who understand the point you're trying to make. 13.11.22 # we all still think it won't gel with the users 13.11.26 # you're in a minority of one 13.11.30 # People just don' t care about the technical minutiae, and nor should they have to. 13.11.44 # I don't think the users should need to know about the internal state - it should just work. 13.11.52 # GodEater: Being a minority doesn't mean you get to say "shut up, you're wrong, and I'm not telling you why" 13.11.59 # I haven't said shut up 13.12.09 # nor have I said you're wrong 13.12.11 # Because of common use of language, technically correct or not 13.12.23 # can someone give me a timestamp for the discussed issue? 13.12.39 # you can choose to use the english language in any way you please - but we're telling you that most people don't use it the way you do. 13.12.51 # GodEater: It's no longer an issue of using the English language. 13.13.00 # whether you like that or not is neither here nor there 13.13.24 # preglow: 10:40 GMT-ish 13.13.29 # it IS an issue of language 13.13.31 # * BigBambi is off to a french lesson - hopefully this will have finished when I get back in 4 hours 13.13.36 # hehe 13.13.42 # I need to work 13.13.43 # GodEater: How so? 13.13.49 # you want to use it to try to describe some inconsistent behaviour in Rockbox 13.13.55 # we'd rather fix the behaviour 13.14.06 # I want it to describe the behaviour until it's fixed. 13.14.15 # I don't 13.14.18 # Why not? 13.14.21 # I'd leave it alone until it's fixed 13.14.32 # because it doesn't cause enough grief to warrant the change 13.14.35 # It's been three years, I don't think this is being fixed soon. 13.14.52 Quit Zarggg (Connection reset by peer) 13.15.01 # this is the first time I've seen it come up 13.15.03 # GodEater: Do you think this would honestly confuse users more? 13.15.05 # As long as we generally agree that a playlist remains valid after STOP, I can do the fix 13.15.16 Quit BigBambi ("CGI:IRC") 13.15.23 # I was unsure of the intended policy until now 13.15.33 # pondlife: Including all the RAM issues? 13.15.43 # There are no RAM issues 13.15.53 # Plugins? 13.15.57 # The playlist remains valid. 13.15.58 # Llorean: I bow to your greater length of service time in the forums and mailing lists here of course, but I personally haven't seen many issues with this crop up amongst the users. 13.16.20 # if we were getting daily or even weekly "I don't get it" questions from users, I'd see the need to make the change 13.16.23 # but I don't see them 13.16.40 # so to quote an old adage "if it aint' broke, don't fix it" 13.16.52 # It's more for the clarity among developers that I asked... wish I hadn't now...:) 13.16.56 # and by that, I merely mean the terms, not the behaviour 13.17.01 # GodEater: What about the concept that, if it helps more than it hurts then it's beneficial? 13.17.28 # Llorean: we have no metric to measure that with unless we make the change, and find out one way or the other 13.17.35 # We disgree, but I think adding "Active"/"Inactive" hurts more than helps 13.17.44 # pondlife: But you refuse to tell me in what way. 13.17.49 # Or have thus far. 13.17.51 # my opinion, whether it matters or not, is to leave it alone 13.17.53 # I think it complicates matters 13.17.58 # I do too 13.17.58 # Complicates how? 13.18.09 # I don't understand the concept of an active or inactive playlist 13.18.16 # you either have one, or you don't 13.18.20 # Exactly 13.18.22 # GodEater: Stopped vs Paused. "In use by the playback engine" 13.18.33 # Why is that useful? 13.18.38 # Llorean: yes, *I* as an involved person, understand that. 13.18.44 # Why don't we have a "Resume Playback" button when Paused then? 13.18.48 # I predict that is the question you will get asked a LOT 13.18.52 # if you choose to use those terms 13.18.54 # if it's unuseful to distinguish, why do it anywhere else right now? 13.18.59 # Llorean: I already answered that twice 13.19.05 # Read the logs 13.19.06 # pondlife: No, you didn't. 13.19.19 # pondlife: You answered "why are they named different things." I just asked "why do they DO different things" 13.19.51 # We could just as easily have made the button "Resume Playback" whether stopped or paused, rather than "Now Playing" for the latter. 13.20.12 # "Why don't we have a "Resume Playback" button when Paused then" - we could, in fact we probabaly should 13.20.16 # is there some kind of a core to this discussion? i can't be bothered to wade through hours of talk... 13.20.26 # preglow: Not really 13.20.53 # seems to me you're all babbling on about semantics 13.21.02 # In summary - does a playlist continue to exist after you press STOP. Is it fair to call it the Current Playlist. 13.21.03 # preglow: I suggest that until such time as there is no difference in behaviour while Rockbox is paused vs stopped, we should distinguish the playlist in some way (active vs inactive) much like we do the WPS menu entry 13.21.13 # pondlife: I never denied that it continued to exist. 13.21.21 # This paused/stopped thing is a red herring 13.21.28 # inactive/active playlist??? 13.21.35 # why do we need that distinction? 13.21.41 # We don't 13.21.43 # preglow: ask Llorean 13.21.57 # Because users don't realize there's a difference between Stopped and Paused, so more changes in the UI between the two might highlight it... 13.22.00 # there's no point in revealing any kind of internal state to the user unless the user benefits 13.22.14 # and in this case, i don't think there's even any difference in internal state 13.22.25 # preglow: Users ask why voice doesn't work while "stopped". Users don't get why some plugins won't launch until they restart their player. Etc. 13.22.32 # Llorean: The user needs to know about stopped/paused, because of the differences re voice/plugins... 13.22.35 # Llorean: they don't? i get it easily, pause pauses, stop stops, it feels like on a cd player 13.22.38 # if i pause, it resumes faster 13.22.57 # Llorean: They don't need to care about "inactive" playlists. 13.23.12 # You are comparing apples and elephantss 13.23.48 # * pondlife has had the longest lunch hour ever and remains hungry... 13.23.51 # back in a bit 13.23.53 # i agree it would be nice to make it easier for the user to understand the difference in state between paused and stopped, but i hardly think this is a good solutionm 13.23.59 # it sounds confusing even to me 13.23.59 # pondlife: If the playback engine is not using the playlist, then the playlist is not being used by the playlist engine. I don't see how you could imagine it is in use. It's just available. 13.24.18 # er, playback engine. 13.24.51 # I don't imagine anything. I don't see that stopping playback makes any difference to the playlist. 13.25.04 # me neither 13.25.09 # A playlist is a playlist is a playlist. 13.25.23 # Llorean: did you ever use a player like winamp or foobar2000? 13.25.23 # Yes, but it can be in use or not. 13.25.29 # markun: I've used both. 13.25.41 # depends how you see the playlist being used, it's just an abstraction 13.25.54 # Llorean: Not really.. Playback can be in use or not, the playlist just sits there. 13.26.03 # pondlife: It is used *by* the playlist. 13.26.08 # Er playback engine 13.26.11 # i don't see the playback engine taking hold of the playlist and releasing it when done, i just see it picking entries from it when needed 13.26.13 # It being the playlist. 13.26.13 # And the UI 13.26.15 # it's never active or inactive 13.26.33 # Llorean: they also have playlists which keep being active even if playback is stopped 13.26.33 # You can do a lot of playlist work without using the playback engine 13.26.48 # markun: They keep being present when playback is stopped. 13.26.49 # The database uses it 13.27.02 # Llorean: yes, which I would like in rockbox too 13.27.10 # markun: They already stay present like that. 13.27.44 # markun: That was my initial point, I was unsure if this was intended originally, or had just migrated to working that way 13.27.57 # pondlife: No, it was intentional that they stick around. 13.28.05 # * Llorean would've answered that one, if asked. 13.28.30 # I saw when it was added. I just don't like that it was done without fixing the other issues. It made the UI less consistent, for the time being. 13.28.40 # Indeed, my point 13.28.51 # Thanks, you did answer earlier, too 13.28.58 # Llorean: but ok, how does this concept of active/inactive playlist make the user easier understand the paused/stopped issue? 13.29.05 # It doesn't 13.29.16 # * dis_afk wonders if this discussion in worth the binary size of the log 13.29.21 # it isn't 13.29.22 # :-) 13.29.27 # preglow: It depends on whether you see the playlist as "a list of files" with emphasis on list, or "a list of files" as in, all the files, in a row. 13.29.32 # it clearly doesn't, because it's confusing the developers too 13.29.36 Nick dis_afk is now known as disorganizer (n=c2785409@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-05ca2a01d0dfdf0d) 13.29.56 # * Nico_P chose not to follow and is glad he did :) 13.30.08 # Move along, move along... :) 13.30.09 # Llorean: if we need that distinction to make sense of this concept, then it's flawed from a user's perspective 13.30.26 # in being too complex 13.30.39 # preglow: My point is that I think for some users, it will make the state more clear. For other users, I don't think they'll case. But I don't think it'll cause any harm. 13.30.41 # * GodEater thinks we've done most of our only students work so far with this discussion ;) 13.30.46 # * disorganizer as user would prefer STOP to actually empty the playlist and clear the entires in "view playlist" to be honest :-) 13.30.49 # *don't think they'll care 13.30.57 Quit MethoS- (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 13.31.01 # disorganizer: It used to. 13.31.06 # Llorean: i think plugins could just stop the playback engine if it happens to be paused and they want the playback buffer or any other resource used by playback 13.31.11 # disorganizer: Right now it's at kinda a halfway point, and needs to make up its mind. :-P 13.31.12 # that'd fix that particular problem 13.31.18 # preglow: I agree. 13.31.40 # preglow: I've only suggested this as a temporary fix, since the whole engine has worked this way for so long, with people suggesting fixing it for a while. 13.31.44 # llorean: it should again. this is the only logical behaviour users without technical knowledge can reproduce without looking in the manual ;-) 13.31.57 # if it's playing, the plug should spout a warning 13.32.21 # preglow: It should sprout a prompt asking the user to stop playback. 13.32.32 # would also work 13.32.44 # wow 13.32.45 # would make for a nice pluginlib addition 13.32.49 # why not: if you press stop it pauses, and if you press stop a second time within 2 seconds it clears the playlist and goes to "stop" state 13.33.10 # disorganizer: No way should stop clear the playlist. I do lots of playlist preparation on target and don't want to have to have playback started. 13.33.21 # no such hidden actions on stop, please 13.33.23 # and that's that 13.33.34 # It may be that the iPod keymap makes it seem different to H300.. 13.33.37 # buttons should do what they say, and mostly only that 13.33.43 # Hours of discussion about minor UI string ambiguity. Just rename 'Insert' to 'Insert into new playlist' when stopped, and all is well 13.33.45 # especially buttons marked as clearly as "stop" 13.33.49 # amiconn: Right 13.33.53 # well, me as a user would expect stop to empty the playlist. then i can prepare a new one and hit play to start playback. that would be logical behaviour 13.33.56 # * amiconn thinks there are way more important things to fix 13.34.08 # Like my lunch. 13.34.17 # amen to that 13.34.29 # Like playback engine bugs in general, or e.g. non-working voice when paused 13.34.53 # amiconn: I would like any bugs to be fixed, also unimportant ones 13.35.21 # or at least less important that others 13.35.29 # markun: The #elif might not be that good an idea. It works for now, but wil need changing in case the Elio port will ever be picked up again 13.35.30 # we should rather discuss what to rename those playlist actions, so they actually describe what they do properly 13.35.33 # :) 13.35.39 # amiconn: I'm precisely thinking of improvements to the playback engine :) 13.35.48 # (the Elio is hdd based *and* has an sd slot) 13.35.54 # preglow: They should keep the same names, never clear on their own, and the bottom option should be "Clear Playlist" 13.36.04 # Well, "Play Next" can keep its clear. :-P 13.36.06 # amiconn: I'm done with committing for today.. 13.36.09 # * amiconn disagrees with Llorean 13.36.39 # * GodEater agrees with Llorean 13.36.44 # No separate 'clear playlist' option, please 13.37.00 # amiconn: If we're going to show people a "Current Playlist" in the viewer, you HAVE to be able to insert into said 'current' playlist, or all reasonable argument that it's actually current goes out the window. :-P 13.37.03 # If you then forget to use it, your playlist will grow and grow and... 13.37.38 # Llorean: It *is* current, even if it's cleared when inserting from stopped state 13.38.01 # Not from a common sense perspective, though 13.38.03 # so why not clear it on stop anyways? 13.38.11 # It's current from a "it's in RAM until it's cleared" perspective. 13.38.16 # disorganizer: Then you could *never* resume 13.38.29 # amiconn: so you need to start playback if you don't want to lose your playlist when you want to insert some songs? 13.38.31 # But common sense dictates that if it's currently your playlist, and you choose an action to be performed upon your current playlist, it merely does what that action explicitly says it does: Insert 13.38.58 # you can resume on pause. try pressing stop on a cd-player 13.39.16 # hit pause => you can resume, hit stop=> it starts from the beginning 13.39.24 # in other news: the gigabeat build is now named Gigabeat F/X on the site 13.39.27 # disorganizer: yes, but the playlist is still there 13.39.36 # the cd is still in the drive 13.39.39 # disorganizer: There's reasons why you *need* to stop, but still want Resuming (such as shutting down, for example) 13.39.47 # you want Stop to be similar to eject 13.39.53 # which we have no equivalent of 13.39.56 # Llorean: No, it's always in ram. You change its contents, not the fact that it's the current list 13.40.07 # GodEater: Well, if we're mimicing CD state, we should restart at entry 1 when stopped. ;)\ 13.40.09 # Bagder: great 13.40.15 # And the inconsistency can be resolved by changing the item name in the context menu when stopped 13.40.32 # * Bagder also reminds people that the www dir is in fact in use now... 13.40.34 # That's all that should be done, imo 13.40.37 # in fact if i press stop imho the playlist will be my new playlist (just that it holds the content of my old playlist which i previously played) 13.40.47 # amiconn: Not from user perspective. If you load a .m3u, then for the user, that *file* is the current playlist. If you then stop, then insert, from a user perspective that's a new playlist, not the same current playlist, re-populated. 13.41.16 # * amiconn thinks that is the root cause of the misunderstanding 13.41.26 # The current playlist is what's in ram, at all times 13.42.05 # But the idea is to make things more common parlance relevant, rather than technically relevant, apparently. 13.42.21 # ? 13.42.41 # It should make sense from a user perspective. 13.42.58 # They shouldn't need to care what's going on behind the scenes. Which is perhaps the one thing all of us arguing before agreed on. 13.43.46 # * petur thinks this is a nice question to ask our usability study student to see how well he'll cope with the task :) 13.44.05 # I'm a user too, and the current behaviour makes very much sense to me. A cumbersome separate clear option woould piss me off 13.44.28 # Especially since 99% of my playlists are dynamic lists started by playing a file in a dir 13.44.38 # amiconn: What if we put the "Play Next" option at the top when stopped, so the current behaviour is preserved in terms of button presses? 13.44.39 Quit CyBergRind|w ("!") 13.45.00 # * Llorean thinks: or better yet, add a "Play Now" option. 13.46.23 # * amiconn almost always either plays an album by clicking at the first file in a folder, or a various songs collection by using 'Insert shuffled' on a folder 13.50.26 # * petur too 13.57.55 # Bagder: did you see me comment re: m:robe bootloader? 13.58.13 # no... 13.58.19 # Bagder: the download mirrors haven't picked up the m:robe bootloader - it seems to be the same permission problem as last time 13.59.02 # ah indeed. I do suck! 13.59.04 # poor bluebrother picked up an old bootloader and was confused... 13.59.04 # fixed now 13.59.11 # thanks 14.02.09 Join LambdaCalculus37 [0] (n=44a0430f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-d234f0845c530653) 14.02.52 Join [CBR]Unspoken|w [0] (n=cbr@212.98.160.130) 14.02.57 Quit kushal_12_27_200 ("This computer has gone to sleep") 14.05.29 Join fehmicans [0] (n=canavar@78.166.129.175) 14.07.05 # * gevaerts notices that our gsoc applicant has an updated application 14.07.14 Join erik006 [0] (n=erik006@76-10-136-171.dsl.teksavvy.com) 14.13.31 # gevaerts: imo that application still needs a lot of work 14.13.44 Join erik006-2 [0] (n=erik006@76-10-136-98.dsl.teksavvy.com) 14.14.47 # GodEater: I agree. I also think it shows a lack of knowledge about rockbox 14.15.12 # yup 14.15.36 Join leftright [0] (n=d9e1f911@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-e42c9377509d8885) 14.19.07 Join daven [0] (n=daven@145.175.adsl.brightview.com) 14.19.45 # I'm not really sure where to start critiquing his modified application without either pulling it apart completely, or going the other way and spoon feeding him with questions we'd want answers to 14.20.03 # as a simple user, only now do I understand the difference between stop and paused with regards to playlist actions due to the past discussion, I must admit that I stumbled upon Insert when stopped creates a new playlist, and that insert when paused will add to playlist, but creating a new playlist on the fly is very vague 14.20.23 # Hi there, I'm currently re-installing rockbox on an iPod Mini G2 that I've accidentally wiped the disk of, is there anywhere I can get the original disk image from? 14.20.40 # I'm running Linux, so don't have access to iTunes to recreate the installation 14.21.10 # daven: have you seen http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/IpodManualRestore ? 14.21.15 # GodEater: Obviously, I've not seen the application, but I'd avoid any spoon-feeding. 14.21.24 # gevaerts: Nope, thanks for pointing me at it. 14.21.37 Quit GodEater (Remote closed the connection) 14.21.58 Join GodEater [0] (i=c2cbc962@rockbox/staff/GodEater) 14.22.50 # pondlife: PM 14.24.17 # Play Next is not very descriptive of a function which will replace the current playlist, "Replace" is more descriptive 14.24.39 # or New playlist 14.24.47 Join erik006-2_ [0] (n=erik006@76-10-132-39.dsl.teksavvy.com) 14.24.52 # leftright: "Play Next" already exists. It plays next, quite literally. It waits until the current song ends. 14.25.16 # yes, but its not very descriptive of what it actually does 14.26.08 # does it clear the playist as well as play selected next 14.26.29 # That's why it's not "Insert" 14.26.51 # so it doesnt clear the playlist 14.28.31 # hm, this is interesting, rockbox seems to start, it gets past the checksum stage, reports "Rockbox Loaded" and then hangs... 14.28.33 # It does clear the playlist. 14.28.53 # If it were "Play next without clearing" it would be "insert" or "queue". 14.28.55 Quit erik006 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14.28.56 # thats my point, Play Next is not decriptive enough 14.29.07 # Process of elimination helps a good deal there. 14.29.23 # thats user friendly ? 14.29.53 # It's no more confusing than a mere "Replace" is. 14.30.08 # Replace playlist would work too 14.30.18 # Now, or when the song ends? 14.30.19 Join jgarvey [0] (n=jgarvey@cpe-024-163-032-204.nc.res.rr.com) 14.30.40 # better than Play Next 14.30.55 Join MethoS [0] (n=clemens@host-091-096-209-178.ewe-ip-backbone.de) 14.31.04 # play next as