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#rockbox log for 2002-09-22

00:01:13dwihnolet me check
00:01:20dwihno(no configure script either?)
00:01:35dwihnoprocess_begin: CreateProcess((null), sh.exe -c "for d in .deps .deps/player; do
00:01:35dwihno{ if [ ! -d ./$d ]; then mkdir ./$d; fi; }; done", ...) failed.
00:01:35dwihnomake (e=2): The system cannot find the file specified.
00:01:37Zagorthe tools dir doesn't use the configure script
00:01:50dwihnotools has been successfully compiled
00:01:54Zagoroh, ok
00:03:46dwihnoDepending on commercial tools is not that good, imho
00:03:51dwihnosuch as nmake :/
00:07:15edxdwihno: yes - but thats not the point - use any other win32 make if you got one
00:07:32dwihnoedx: I only have GNU tools :/
00:07:38*dwihno is an advocate for free power tools :)
00:08:01edxfree is cool for sure - but visual c++ just kicks ass and is much better than anything you get for free
00:08:14edxactually i think its the best you can get _at all_
00:09:09HadakaI could never use it, too many bugs, sorry :(
00:09:21Hadakaand it lacks too many C++ features as well
00:09:45edxwaht bugs?
00:09:59edxnever found a bug in the latest version.
00:10:07edxand i use it a lot really.
00:10:14Hadakainternal compiler errors on complex structures, running out of internal buffers for debug info, not specifying enough
00:10:37Hadakahell, even VS8 isn't going to have all the necessary features
00:10:37edxnever had those problems so fare.
00:10:45edx(has gcc?!)
00:10:51Hadakagcc has
00:11:56Hadakabesides, not being able to compile a program on windows without a commercial compiler is just plain silliness
00:12:11edxoh well.. i've heard stuff about version conflicts etc. which would propably cause much more problems to me - also I hate the missing editor in linux (that is a vs-like editor)
00:12:17edxyou all use emacs or what?
00:12:37HadakaI could never use the vs editor either - too few features, sucky indentation and all that :)
00:12:50edxwhy am i not able to compile a program without a commercial compiler - never said that :)
00:12:57Hadakaxemacs for me and vim at times
00:13:06edxwhat features are you missing in the vs-editor?
00:13:17Hadakawell take for example the indentation
00:13:22dwihnovim is really neato
00:13:43Hadakamost always it guesses wrong and can't fix it
00:14:00edxwhat is identation - sorry i dont understand the word?
00:14:12Hadakaon emacsen you can even pick the style of indentation you want - gnu or linux or stroustrup or k&r
00:14:22Hadakaum, the amount of whitespace at the beginning of lines
00:14:26edxok got it
00:14:35edxwell its just like i want it - plus I can fix it
00:15:01Hadakaanybody who writes a lot of code has to conform to a variety of different indentation styles
00:15:09edxim only used to the vc style but you can do some changes to the indentation style as well there
00:16:12dwihnoHadaka: what do you think about the vim configurability when it comes to indenting?
00:16:14HadakaVS.Net has come a bit further in features such as narrowing and so, but still not enough for me
00:17:22Hadakadwihno: vim is nice - the indenting there is a nice middle-line solution - not entirely fixed, but still helps a lot - but still it lacks in features I use daily so I haven't really gotten into it - I use it half of the time when I'm editing something small
00:18:12edxhas vim a shortcut button to "compile stuff"
00:18:31Hadakabut I personally don't know a single professional coder who codes with VS and hasn't run into internal compiler errors and other bugs
00:18:37Hadakavim has, as does xemacs
00:18:43Hadakaand emacs
00:18:59edxok .. thats a little progress on the long way of comfort then :)
00:19:10edxi hate having to type makefiles myself
00:19:15edx(thats another thing.)
00:19:41Hadakaoh but you have to do that anyway - since VS never gets the linking correct when something complex is being done
00:19:59edxthat means i've never done anything complex.
00:20:27Hadakaand usually there's atleast one thing in each project which has autogenerated code - and it's a pain in the ass to try and hook those up with VS
00:20:51edxno way.
00:21:02edxthere's nothing auto generated if you dont want it to be there.
00:21:04Hadakatake for example the .lang files in rockbox - how would you make VS automatically create the lang.c and lang.h files when the english.lang file is changed?
00:21:34edxadd a command to the project settings which calls the perl script or something like that
00:21:41Hadakawell see my example first - that's what I mean - or things like parsers which need lex or yacc or bison
00:21:58HadakaI don't think you can make the command so it activates only when the english.lang file is changed?
00:22:26edxi dont know how it is with the parser stuff for other languages - that's a good point, maybe they dont support that yet. but using other compilers is no problem (or other programs, whatever)
00:22:26Hadakaor IDL compilers for RPC stuff
00:22:40 Join Lowfiler [0] (
00:22:55Lowfilerhey edx ->query plz
00:23:20Hadakabesides - you can get autogenerated makefiles without VS anyway - just use automake and autoconf
00:23:44Hadaka(on windows)
00:23:51edxi know to little about those tools ;)
00:24:02Hadakafor example at the place I work at
00:24:22Hadakawe have a win32 client and a linux server for those (no linux client)
00:24:42Hadakaand all the win32 compiling is done by driving the VS compiler directly out of GNU Make - using autoconf
00:25:18Hadakaworks a _lot_ better for producing release builds and debug builds when the whole building process can be exactly defined
00:25:20 Nick _seb_ is now known as seb-away (
00:25:25Hadakaand no GUI tools are necessary for building
00:26:42edxcool. sounds good (driving vs from autoconf)
00:27:02edxbut the point is not the necesserity of GUI tools - the point is the COMFORT
00:27:24Hadakayeah, that might be the point - but the problem is that they can't do the job :)
00:28:06edxi have the feeling that that's religious.
00:28:28Hadakawell take the case at work
00:28:30edxthey don't do the job for projects where linux people are invlolved. that is true :) - cuz they never are up to date
00:29:03Hadakawe need to be able to produce builds by pressing one button and a CD comes out of the burner a few hours later
00:29:37 Quit Zagor ("Client Exiting")
00:30:01Hadakathat involves several steps of generating code, compiling code, making packages, prepping installers, building ISO images and so on
00:30:57HadakaI have a hard time seeing how to accomplish that without this current setup
00:31:51edxwell. you are producing for linux or windows or both?
00:32:58edxand why dont you use the vs-editor then?
00:33:08edxhow do you edit the code if not with the vs editor?
00:33:33Hadakahalf of the windows people edit the code in the VS editor - half use emacs
00:33:54Hadakabut there's no way at all that the VS editor could manage to create a build
00:34:19Hadakahell, it even has trouble managing to create the .sys file since the linking needed is very nasty
00:34:34***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:35:24mecraw12Damn... Zagor left before I posted my patch. :(
00:36:23edxwell. but the problem is (first of all) that not all ppl are willing to usethe vs net editor - which is a problem of the persons not using vs instead of the vs editor. generating the sys file is another thing. You need the DDK then (which I guess you use) and you need a well configured project file. but generally nearly anything is possible with the gui since it allows you to run external programs.)
00:37:32Hadakaoh ofcourse everything is possible since external programs can be run - you can run GNU make from the VS editor
00:37:43Hadakabut that's not excuse for it being so damn tough
00:38:01PsycoXulhow come nobody knows how to use -r with diff
00:38:15HadakaPsycoXul: ?
00:38:32PsycoXul -r −−recursive Recursively compare any subdirectories found.
00:38:48PsycoXuldiff -ur olddir newdir >complete.patch
00:39:02PsycoXulno need for any seperate files
00:39:03mecraw12cvs diff does it
00:39:43Hadakaand the problem is not that everybody isn't willing to use the VS.Net editor - we would probably do the building in that if it could manage it
00:39:45PsycoXulbut almost every patch i see on the mailing list sends like .zip files with .c files or .c files AND one OR MORE .diff's
00:39:47edxHadaka: well it really seems to depend on where you've grown up - i would call the hard-core linux command line stuff "tough" :)
00:40:17Hadakabut the external command hooking up is way too immature - no way to get any complex evaluations of command pipings done
00:41:12Hadakain fact - I don't know of a single software company that would use the VS editor to produce their release versions of the software
00:41:13mecraw12PsycoXul: that's because apps and firmware are in different cvs modules, cvs diff can't cross modules and it won't include new files
00:41:14edxyea, maybe - but you could use it to call a make-like program and have that program evaluate the rest for you :)
00:41:34edxHadaka: I do. ID Software does (with quake2 at least they did.)
00:42:31Hadakaerr, you sure about that? I thought they had automated building for quake2 already?
00:42:51edxat least the sources include vc project files.
00:43:03edx(which does not mean that the release is vc at all.. yes)
00:43:08Hadakaoh yes, that's for the developers to check whether it compiles or not
00:43:13edxbut you could compile a release version with them
00:43:39edxso what compiler do you think they used for the release? or are you just talking about the make-script?
00:43:51Hadakawell you could compile the release binary - and the release installer separately - but that's in no way doing the packaging
00:44:32HadakaI'm talking about the building process - the compiler is quite probably VS - it's not like anybody has a lot of choice there
00:44:41edxwell why would you need vs to compile an installer? that's no use - you do the developing and then _one time_ you do the packaging
00:45:01Hadakabut how do you do the packaging? with what?
00:47:14PsycoXulmecraw12: whats cvs got to do with it?
00:47:20Hadakawe do several builds on CD:s with complete installers and autoboot per day - and those have to come out without anybody doing anything more than sticking in a new CD and telling to build
00:47:25edxmsi? - well today you would (not at times of quake2)
00:47:46HadakaPsycoXul: people should make patches by editing a working copy and then saying cvs diff and mailing that :)
00:47:47edxyes in your case thats a bit different propably.
00:48:29Hadakawell how is it different from any software company? think about building Microsoft Word release?
00:48:38Hadakayou think someone is manually wrapping them together?
00:49:15PsycoXulusualy i make a diff by making 2 fresh copies of the modules i'm changing in new dirs, make my changes to the one, and diff -ur between the 2 of them
00:49:48Hadakaor something like quake2 - sure you can get a binary for your own testing by pressing F7 (or was it F8) - but if you want something more than that - you have to do it with something else
00:50:20HadakaPsycoXul: well the CVS method is a lot nicer - since it will survive 'cvs up' for updating the patch and a lot of other things - and it doesn't need that extra copy of the directory
00:50:22edxhmm quake2 might be a little different - they would not need an installer during the developing process
00:50:23PsycoXulthen you can just go to the dir where the modules dirs are in, patch -p1 <blah.diff, and you're patched
00:50:59HadakaPsycoXul: same thing with the 'cvs diff'
00:51:00edxHadaka: Yes, I would like to know whether MS uses the editor to build word :)
00:51:09Hadakaedx: they do not :)
00:51:17PsycoXulit'll create any new files, change any files in any modules, etc
00:51:29Hadakaedx: they don't even use it to build VS itself
00:51:33edxHadaka: are you sure about that
00:51:35PsycoXulthe 2 dirs i create for it are just temporary, and ensure that the patch doesn't have any other source mod's i've made to my own tree
00:51:45edxHadaka: what do they use instead
00:52:03HadakaPsycoXul: well with cvs diff you have to make sure you've typed 'cvs add' on the new files - then it works
00:52:31Hadakathey have a separate commandline program that handles building VS
00:52:40Hadakathat's driven from some .BAT
00:52:48PsycoXulpersonally, i think all the stuff necessary to build rockbox should all be under a single module
00:53:26edxthen we would not neeed modules at all (well, nearly not)
00:53:27PsycoXulso that instead of
00:53:28Hadakahad a longish talk with a guy who was working on VS8
00:53:29PsycoXulcvs -z9 co apps firmware tools docs
00:53:31PsycoXuli can just use
00:53:34PsycoXulcvs -z9 co rockbox
00:53:46dwihnoIsn't it possible to mimic the nmake behaviour? :)
00:53:48PsycoXuli used to use cvs -z9 co .
00:53:56PsycoXulbut that also got www and junk like that
00:54:04HadakaPsycoXul: well you can make a module that contains those other modules
00:54:59edxHadaka: cool! do you know when they are going to release it?
00:55:17PsycoXulbut its all besides the point, all i want is to stop seeing "patches" sent to the mailing list that consist of blah.c halb.c fooblah.diff gaah.diff etc
00:55:28Hadakaedx: well it's going to take a while
00:55:36HadakaPsycoXul: well tell them to use 'cvs diff' :)
00:55:50edxHadaka: yes.. i guess so :)
00:55:59edxit's become late. i gotta go
00:56:07edxgood night
00:56:11 Nick edx is now known as edx|sleep (
00:56:29mecrawHadaka: i did use cvs diff for my patch, but i still needed 4 files to send it
00:56:44Hadakamecraw: why on earth?
00:57:13mecrawi changed files in apps and firmware and added 2 files
00:57:37Hadakaadding files is no problem
00:57:45mecrawcan i do 'cvs add' with anonymous access?
00:57:52Hadakavi CVS/Entries
00:58:04Hadakathat's how you do it with anonymous access :)
00:58:08mecrawtrue, didn't think of that
00:58:20Hadakabut that's just a stupid bug in CVS why it doesn't allow that
00:58:57Hadakabut why don't you have a module in CVSROOT/modules that consists of firmware, apps, tools and docs?
00:59:02mecrawPsycoXul: i apologize for having so many files in my patch :)
00:59:08PsycoXulmecraw: :p
00:59:12Hadakait doesn't require anything else except changing a single file?
00:59:18PsycoXulyou're forgiven, this time :p
00:59:36*mecraw sighs with relief
01:00:11mecrawHadaka: how do I do the modules thing?
01:00:44mecrawCVROOT/modules, how do i do it
01:00:58Hadakafor the working copy, you have to do some creative generation of CVS files by yourself - on the repository side it can be fixed by editing that
01:01:28PsycoXuli need to figure out a violin mute
01:01:41PsycoXuli read on some web page that clothes pins clipped to the bridge work
01:01:44mecrawtake the strings off
01:01:47PsycoXulbut when i tried it, it didn't even make a difference
01:02:04PsycoXulmecraw: that doesn't make for very productive practice sessions :p
01:02:25mecrawyour neighbors will appreciate it though :)
01:02:28PsycoXulmecraw: not only that, but that'll also let the bridge fall off and the soundpost fall
01:02:51PsycoXuland while the bridge is easy to put on, the soundpost requires [expensive] professional placing
01:03:00HadakaPsycoXul: how about editing CVSROOT/modules and adding a line: rockbox &apps &firmware &tools &docs?
01:03:22PsycoXulHadaka: go for it
01:03:36Hadakame? I don't have access to the repository :)
01:03:47PsycoXulall i know about cvs is how to grab stuff from it
01:03:47Hadakaor should I send a patch? ;)
01:04:17Hadakaafter that - cvs co rockbox creates a directory rockbox with apps, firmware, tools and docs under it
01:04:26Hadakawhich is what you want, isn't it?
01:04:38Hadakaand then people can do 'cvs diff' in the rockbox directory and get diffs for all the modules
01:04:47PsycoXulsounds good to me
01:04:55 Quit Hes (
01:05:27NJoinHes [0] (
01:05:59PsycoXulhopefully my cheapo for-tuning piezo pickup gets here today
01:06:16PsycoXulfor some reason my mic doesn't produce much of a signal from my violin
01:06:55PsycoXuland is awkward and cumbersome anyways
01:07:18dwihnomake: *** No rule to make target `lang/.lang', needed by `build.lang'. Stop.
01:08:10PsycoXuldwihno: is it trying to use ${LANG}.lang and LANG's not set or something like that?
01:09:48dwihnomake -f win32.mak -DLANG=english or smth?
01:10:02PsycoXulyou'd have to look at the makefile to see what it wants
01:10:05PsycoXuli'm just making a guess here
01:10:34PsycoXuli would also guess there's an official way to do it that you've somehow missed or something
01:11:28mecrawDo any of you build the windows simulator with mingw?
01:13:23PsycoXulhell no
01:24:08dwihnoNobody ever did ;)
01:25:26mecrawdidn't bill napier work on it?
01:27:44dwihnoit worked
01:28:09dwihnoalthough the win32.mak in tools should be gnu-make:able :)
01:36:43dwihnoand clean should also erase lang.c&h
01:39:57dwihnomake -f win32.mak LANGUAGE=english
01:40:02dwihnoor whatever language you want
01:41:25PsycoXuli guess configure doesn't work for the win32.mak's?
01:41:47PsycoXulor does configure even set the language/
01:42:01dwihnowin32.mak is purely for gnush users
01:42:05dwihnowho won't use configure scripts ;)
01:42:32PsycoXulwhat is gnush anyways
01:44:18PsycoXulso like the violin i got i'm suspicious that it was substantialy misrepresented on it's ebay ad.. :/ i sent an e-mail to its selling just now indicating all the problems i think it has and that i'll be confirming them with an expert's opinion
01:45:04dwihnognush is a 'pure' (no cygwin or such) sh-1 compiler based on mingw stuff
01:45:17PsycoXuli see
01:45:29PsycoXuland it doesn't have a sh or bash?
01:48:00dwihnoAnd that's a pretty good thing, I think
01:48:11dwihnoNo dependencies (except the compilker)
01:48:57PsycoXuli guess :p
01:49:07PsycoXulthough i've seen floppy-based linux distro's that could run that configure script :p
02:06:52dwihnoWindows is not Linux (tm) ;)
02:10:54PsycoXulheh yeah, but that's beside the point
02:11:22PsycoXulunless you're just planning some new software movement called WNL or something
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04:34:39***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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05:28:11RedLegAnybody awake in here?
05:30:07RedLegJust wanted to report in.... I just installed a 60gb Toshiba drive in my JBR20. No real issues...
05:32:17RedLegYup. Took FOREVER to move the tunez in, but all is working fine. It's significantly more quiet than the Hitachi that came out too.
05:32:54mecraw12you don't have a USB 2.0 card?
05:34:38RedLegNope. I use linux exclusively, and have a notebook as my primary machine. USB 2.0 support is new there, and I don't know of a pcmcia USB 2.0 card.
05:48:07 Join noalavida [0] (
05:50:17 Quit RedLeg ("Client Exiting")
06:04:06noalavidacan anyone help me?
06:04:42noalavidai'm having a problem when compile rockbox
06:05:13noalavidai'm reciving this error
06:05:31noalavidash-elf-gcc -Os -nostdlib -o ./archos.elf ./lang.o ./credits.o ./debug_menu.o ./
06:05:32noalavidademo_menu.o ./games_menu.o ./lang.o ./main.o ./main_menu.o ./menu.o ./playlist.o
06:05:32noalavida ./settings.o ./settings_menu.o ./showtext.o ./sound_menu.o ./status.o ./tree.o
06:05:32DBUGEnqueued KICK noalavida
06:05:32noalavida./wps-display.o ./wps.o ./recorder/bmp.o ./recorder/bounce.o ./recorder/icons.o
06:05:32noalavida./recorder/oscillograph.o ./recorder/snake.o ./recorder/snow.o ./recorder/sokoba
06:05:32***Alert Mode level 1
06:05:32noalavidan.o ./recorder/tetris.o ./recorder/widgets.o ./recorder/wormlet.o -L. -lrockbox
06:05:33***Alert Mode level 2
06:05:33noalavida-lgcc -L../firmware -T../firmware/ -Wl,-Map,./
06:05:35noalavida./lang.o(.data+0x0): multiple definition of `language_strings'
06:05:37noalavida./lang.o(.data+0x0): first defined here
06:05:39noalavidamake: *** [archos.elf] Error 1
06:15:34***Alert Mode OFF
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06:31:22mecrawhi, edx|sleep
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08:53:36werty1sthow can i use the new language files
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09:30:04DBUGEnqueued KICK werty1st
09:30:04werty1stwhy don`t we have an 'auto off' feature yet?
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11:10:30dwihnowerty1st: to use the new language files, you must compile your own firmware (that will probably change).
11:10:41dwihnowerty1st: the auto off feature is in in the works, afaik
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11:34:46werty1st@ <dwihno> which daily build will include the auto off feature?
11:35:54dwihnowerty1st: since it's work-in-progress, it's not certain yet. It might be today, tomorrow or even two weeks.
11:37:11werty1sti found it very difficlut to get behind the rolo. i didnt know that i have to disable the music filter and then "play" the mod files ;-)
11:38:17dwihnothe rolo feature has proven quite useful for people who really want to use rockbox and then just the stock firmware for recording
11:39:01werty1sti think i found a bug in a sokoban level
11:40:12dwihnoreport it on the sourceforge bug page then
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11:42:10werty1stcould it be possible to write a leveleditor for sokoban because ill finish it soon
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11:43:54dwihnowell, nothing is impossible :)
11:44:00dwihnogood morning, langhaar
11:49:04langhaarrockeris there in cygwin some kind of initial shell script where I can change my path?
12:02:09langhaarrockerIs there someone with cvs access around?
12:02:16Schnuefflanghaarrocker: u mean ?
12:04:15 Join linuxstb [0] (
12:08:01langhaarrockerSchnueff: Thanx. Exactly wha I needed.
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12:42:26langhaarrockerCode police becomes superficial.
12:43:19langhaarrockerSomeone bothered about german.lang / deutsch.lang but didn't notice that the file doesn't work.
12:45:23CtcpIgnored 2 channel CTCP requests in 3 hours and 24 minutes at the last flood
12:45:23*langhaarrocker has to work on sundays
12:46:49dwihnoSo what do you do for a living?
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14:24:46 Join YeAhx [0] (~aarond@
14:25:02YeAhxhey peeps how goes it?
14:27:49YeAhxno one around huh?
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16:34:51***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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17:27:59 Nick edx is now known as edx|away (
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18:04:50langhaarrockerAny news about the t-shirt contest?
18:08:12 Join Phantom [0] (
18:13:19Phantomis somebody can make a FR ?
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18:13:50langhaarrockerany alpha testers around?
18:14:02PhantomYes, somebody can make a FR ?
18:14:30langhaarrockerWhat's a FR?
18:14:56Phantomfrench version
18:15:18langhaarrockerJe na sais pas de francais.
18:16:17langhaarrockerIf you have a recorder I'd be pleased if you could test the volume meter berzerk mode
18:16:26Phantomjuste to compile a Firmware with the french.lang
18:16:49langhaarrockerYou want a french version?
18:17:00langhaarrockerPlayer? Recorder?
18:17:13Phantomthe recorder, with Games...
18:17:36 Join gizz [0] (
18:17:43Phantomif you make it, I test the volume meter ;-)
18:18:23langhaarrockerIf you give me your mail addr I'll mail it.
18:19:04langhaarrockerHm. French version doesn't compile.
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18:23:19Phantomhow to use volume meter ?
18:23:56langhaarrockerYou've got to edit your .rockbox/default.wps file and put a line with %pm somewhere.
18:24:23PhantomARG k
18:27:04langhaarrockerso now why the f&%k doesn't the french version compile while the english does?
18:27:17*langhaarrocker is sniffing in some makefiles
18:29:55langhaarrockerI'm especially interested in wether we need the berzerk mode or not. You can switch in General Settings->display->peak meter
18:30:08Phantomwhat does it change ?
18:30:26langhaarrockerWithout berzerk mode the meter is less precise and can miss peaks.
18:31:03PhantomI try...
18:31:06langhaarrockerBut berzerk mode makes the thing more buzy -> battery drain -> risk of skips, etc
18:33:27PhantomWith, definitly, with...
18:33:44PhantomI ve test with U2 Elevation
18:34:05PhantomAnd is 18/20 with, and 5/20 without
18:34:44PhantomBerzerk in really important
18:34:50langhaarrockerIs that foud/real peaks?
18:34:52***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
18:35:34Phantomwith berzek that is perfect, without it's very (but really very) bad
18:36:16langhaarrockerZagor / LinusN won't like that.
18:36:36Phantomthey don't try U2...
18:37:01langhaarrockerI try, U2 :)
18:38:44langhaarrockerI think I shall go and make some measurements concerning power consumption.
18:39:42Phantomwhat are other things you work on ?
18:39:49 Quit edx|away ()
18:40:12langhaarrockerI should make the meter show dBfs instead of linear scale. But I don't grasp the math.
18:41:01langhaarrockerFinally someday I'll make graphical split editor.
18:41:06Phantomwhat is about recording ?
18:41:57langhaarrockerI'm so slow that I think it's realistic that someone else will have done that by the time I'll have done the split editor. ;)
18:42:23linuxstbHello all - what's a split editor?
18:42:48langhaarrockerTo split mp3 files on the recorder.
18:43:20gizzis hdd write enabled ?
18:43:31Phantomwhen you record a full CD, it is in 1 file, then you split it in part...
18:43:45linuxstbI'm currently working on cue-file support for Rockbox (almost there) - I eventually want to be able to create cue-files on the recorder.
18:43:55langhaarrockerI don't think so. I think Zagor is working on writing.
18:44:55langhaarrockerPhantom: There you mention something. I always wanted to investigate wether we can detect song changes via spdif.
18:45:05gizzlang..: ah ok, you were talking about a future spli editor ;)
18:45:22langhaarrockerI have that dream...
18:46:05Phantom"I ve make a dream..." It is my actual English Lesson...
18:50:30PhantomSo nobody to compile a french version with the new font code ?
18:51:07langhaarrockerI'm too stupid to debug that &% tool/configure!
18:58:42langhaarrockernow I start finding bugs in francais.lang
19:00:21langhaarrockerfrench is on its way
19:04:13dwihnoc'est parfait
19:04:40gizzhey, think about english chatters :)
19:05:23langhaarrockerI guess he thought about them while chatting french.
19:09:29dwihnoare there any lsof equivalents for win32?
19:10:14langhaarrockerwhats lsof?
19:10:19Phantomlangharrocker, can U send me Source of the french version ?
19:11:05langhaarrockerDo you mean the francais.lang?
19:11:32mecrawlinuxstb: what is cue-file support?
19:11:39Phantomknow, in fact, I know how to compile, but not how to compile with a language...
19:12:46langhaarrockereasy: just call tools/confiugre script form within your build directory. I makes a new Makefile and lets you choose the lingo interactively.
19:13:22langhaarrockermecraw: cue files tell cd burning programs where to put which song.
19:14:36dwihnolanghaarrocker: it lists open files on *nix systems...
19:14:45dwihnolanghaarrocker: and the application having the file open
19:15:04langhaarrockerok. I'll shut up and be ashamed in the corner.
19:15:26*mecraw still wonders what linuxstb meant then
19:15:35Phantomlanghaarrocker, plz, send me your sources... PLZ
19:16:49langhaarrockerNo, they're too intermediate. I can send you the francais.lang file as that was the buggy one, though.
19:18:49langhaarrockerIf you don't want to fiddle with cvs you still could get the daily tarball.
19:19:55PhantomYes, but that is without the volume meter
19:20:08linuxstbmecraw: See for an example of a cue file.
19:21:08linuxstbMy "cuefile support" currently loads and parses a cue file and displays "tick marks" along the progress bar on the recorder to indicate where the tracks are.
19:21:17langhaarrockerwell, the .cue file is just what I has in mind.
19:21:48linuxstbI am about to make the "next/prev" buttons aware of the cue file. The final task for tonight will be displaying track titles from the cuefile.
19:22:14mecrawah, i get it now, sounds cool
19:22:39langhaarrockeroh. cool. So that would end in a whole playlist / directory being displayed by the progress bar?
19:23:09mecrawdo you rip all of your CDs to just one mp3 file?
19:23:49linuxstbNo - I record a lot of radio broadcasts (directly as mp2 from digital satellite broadcasts) and I need to navigate within them.
19:24:33Phantom"make: *** No rule to make target 'lang/.lang', needed by 'build.lang'. Stop."
19:24:36langhaarrockerDo you intend to make the 'cue points' editable from within rockbox?
19:24:47linuxstblang...: yes. That's my intention.
19:24:57mecrawit's amazing how many different ways there are to use rockbox
19:24:58Phantom"make: *** No rule to make target 'lang/.lang', needed by 'build.lang'. Stop." : What that ???
19:25:21langhaarrockerPhantom: make a new makefile using tools/configure.
19:25:49linuxstbDid anyone read my post to the mailing list about a duplicate "lang.o" in the Makefile?
19:25:51langhaarrockerlinxstb: we should share our ideas as that is exactly the same task as file splitting.
19:25:53PhantomI m under Windows !!!
19:26:16mecrawPhantom: are you using cygwin?
19:26:19langhaarrockerPhantom: no cygwin?
19:26:36PhantomSh-elf Tool Chain
19:26:38langhaarrockerI only know the cygwin way.
19:26:42linuxstbYes - I see splitting and cuefiles as the same thing. Step 1 - create cue file. Step 2 - split according to information in cue file.
19:27:01mecrawPhantom: i build with cygwin as well
19:27:03langhaarrockerThat's a way I've thought of, too.
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19:27:10DBUGEnqueued KICK dw|gone0r
19:27:16PhantomCan you help me to install cygwin ?
19:28:01mecrawjust go to and click on the setup link
19:28:27mecrawmake sure you select to install gcc, make, and perl
19:29:07mecrawthen go to and follow the directions
19:29:42mecrawlanghaarrocker: have you ever built the win32 sim?
19:29:49Phantomwhat is the default text file type ? DOS or Unix ?
19:30:14langhaarrockermecraw: yes with Visual c++ V6
19:31:01mecrawlanghaarrocker: i want to do it without needing vc++ :(
19:31:13langhaarrockerI understand that desire.
19:31:56mecrawi tried to use mingw yesterday but had problems with the lang files
19:32:31gizzok bye all
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19:32:46Phantomnear of gcc it is write : n/q
19:32:55Phantom ?
19:34:13langhaarrockerlinuxstb: do you put your cue points on mp3 frame boundaries?
19:34:19mecrawPhantom: where does it say this?
19:34:27Phantomno, i ve found
19:35:16linuxstbCue points seem to be linked to CD frame boundaries - I don't have any choice.
19:35:39linuxstbThere seem to be 76 "CD frames" per second - but I may have misunderstood things.
19:35:53langhaarrockerI see: you take existing cue files that came from ripping?
19:36:11linuxstbNo - I don't, but I am assuming that "most users" will be doing that.
19:36:51linuxstbI think we will need non-standard extensions to cue files to handle mpeg audio frames.
19:40:04PhantomI install...cygwin with make, perl ans gcc
19:40:10Phantomthen ?
19:40:37langhaarrockerfollow the link mecraw posted
19:41:24PhantomI must dl : binutils-2.11.tar.gz
19:41:39mecrawyes, follow the directions
19:41:40Phantombinutils-2.11.tar.gz ?
19:41:54mecrawit takes awhile to build it
19:42:15mecrawyou must have patience, grasshopper
19:42:20langhaarrockerbut afterwards you can build everything but the simulators :)
19:42:49mecrawsomone needs to figure out how to build the sims with cygwin
19:42:58mecrawsomeone -> not me
19:43:00langhaarrockernot me.
19:43:19Phantom"but afterwards you can build everything but the simulators :)" => what is "everything"
19:43:50langhaarrockerplayer / recorder / tools / makefiles / languages...
19:44:08Phantomok what are tools ?
19:44:32langhaarrockereg. the scramble thing, the perl scripts used for the lang support...
19:44:55langhaarrockerand what's most important: you can use configure to make your Makefile.
19:45:10Phantomhow to change the boot screen ?
19:45:57langhaarrockerI never did that
19:47:21langhaarrockerlinuxstb: what do you want a cue editor to be like?
19:49:33Phantomwhat is diffrence between cue and playlist ?
19:50:42langhaarrockercue files specify points within a file.
19:52:09langhaarrockerlinuxstb: What about a list like editor for the different cue point entries and then a graphical editor for editing one specific cue point?
19:53:52linuxstbJust arrived back....
19:54:00Phantomwhere can I dl binutils-2.11.tar.gz, and so on
19:55:08linuxstbRe: cue and playlist - from an abstract level they can be thought of as the same thing.
19:55:47linuxstbBut at the momement a cue file is not read directly - it is read when the mp3 file it relates to is read.
19:57:07linuxstbRe: editting cue points - I think we need some kind of zoom/scroll for the progress bar and a numerical display of the mp3 frame number
19:57:39linuxstb..but I haven't given it too much thought yet.
19:58:02langhaarrockerI want oscillographs. At least for finetuning the cue / split point.
19:58:41linuxstbI think that's too ambitious to start with. It means decoding the mpeg file in software - or passing the whole file through the hardware decoder.
20:00:10langhaarrockerI thought of
20:00:10langhaarrocker1.) you press pause to specify the rough point
20:00:10langhaarrocker2.) enter some graphical editor that uses the MAS to obtain oscillosgraphic info while playing
20:00:10DBUGEnqueued KICK langhaarrocker
20:00:10langhaarrocker3.) looping the environment of the split point
20:00:21langhaarrocker4.) finetune the split point.
20:00:53langhaarrockerYou don't need to parse the whole file - just the environment of the cue point.
20:01:14linuxstbThat may work - but it seems very complicated.
20:01:32linuxstbAnd how much RAM will it need?
20:02:03langhaarrocker132 bytes for the graph.
20:02:30langhaarrocker(screen width) When zooming the graph has to be rebuilt while playing.
20:04:18linuxstbOK - I think I understand what you mean.
20:05:08linuxstbI guess we are all waiting on write support - has anyone risked turning it on?
20:05:18langhaarrockerno :)
20:05:37langhaarrockerI have no backup media for the 20 GB in the recorder. :)
20:06:09linuxstbI am the same. However, this should change next week - my boss has bought two PCs with DVD recorders.
20:06:35langhaarrockerNah. They don't fit into the jukebox.
20:09:32 Join EnnaN [0] (bla@CC53164-B.GRONI1.GR.HOME.NL)
20:10:55langhaarrockerlinuxstb: Assuming you do the editor part with the scroll bar / mp3 frame number thing - It would be easy to define an inface to call the graphical with. And that would be my part to do.
20:12:08linuxstbI'm not sure what I'm going to do yet - I'm still trying to get the "read support" working first.
20:12:27linuxstbBut I'm sure I'll do something on the editting part later.
20:13:48langhaarrockerI'm not going to start writing the editor tomorrow.
20:13:48langhaarrockerEven if I fail to do the graphical editor you wouldn't depend on me heavily.
20:13:48langhaarrockerNeither I would depend on you because the interface wouldn't comprise more than the file and position info in some way. That's info I could get somewhere else, too.
20:13:51EnnaNany1 can tell me what the standard .WPS is? its omething like "number/total number filename?" and 2nd line remaining/total time...
20:14:18langhaarrockerEnnaN: standard wps is no wps.
20:15:04EnnaNlanghaarrocker: there's no file, but there should be *something*..because you see chars in the screen..
20:15:26linuxstblanghaarrocker: one problem is that I think that mpeg.c keeps track of milliseconds instead of frames. Currently, I'm only working in with times.
20:16:30Phantomjust a simple question : what are other projet for rockbox (not recording support, smaller things)
20:16:45langhaarrockerI don't think it will be much difference wether we use time, frames, number of popcorns eaten.
20:17:13EnnaNpopcorns eaten?? :)
20:17:19linuxstbYou're probably right - but we do need frame-accurate editing.
20:18:23langhaarrockeryes. And we can use time to name the point as well. Although I agree that frame info might be the easier choice.
20:21:45langhaarrockerEnnaN: the default wps is something like
20:21:45langhaarrocker "%it\n"
20:21:45langhaarrocker "%id\n"
20:21:45langhaarrocker "%ia\n"
20:21:46***Alert Mode level 1
20:21:46langhaarrocker "%fb kbit %fv\n"
20:21:48langhaarrocker "Time: %pc / %pt\n"
20:21:50langhaarrocker "%pb\n"
20:22:12Phantom"%pm" ;-)
20:22:12langhaarrockerTaken from wps-display line647
20:23:27 Join Zagor [0] (
20:23:41langhaarrockeryes. %pm is very suitable as last line because then you can toggle displaying the meter via status bar :)
20:24:44EnnaNlanghaar: ok..i didn't catch a thing you just isn't in the custum_wps_format.html, nor do i know anything about a "meter"..
20:25:17EnnaNjust send me towards a file if i'm asking for info that's writen down in some docs :) dont wanna be a bother..
20:25:45Phantompm is for Peak meter
20:25:48langhaarrockerEnnaN: don't worry. It's nothing official yet. I made a volume peak meter for the wps. That can be adressed with the %pm tag.
20:26:04Phantomthe two level bar in the original archos firmware
20:26:25EnnaNnice.../me got player...still talking about peakmeters?
20:27:09langhaarrockerBe happy: your batteries will last longer :)
20:27:09linuxstbCan anyone here answer questions about how mpeg.c works?
20:27:26linuxstb(don't worry - not the MAS parts!)
20:28:46linuxstbI was wondering why Rockbox has room to buffer 16 ID3 tags
20:29:05 Nick seb-away is now known as _seb_ (
20:29:10linuxstbI am implementing cuefile support and am worried this means I need to cache 16 cue files.
20:29:14Zagorlinuxstb: because we can have many tracks in ram simultaneously
20:29:47Phantomthe zagor is back
20:30:08EnnaNlanghaar: another quick question: can or can i not have 2 lines scrolling (if i'm not using times that is)...the html clearly says no, but i read (i believe in the mail archive) dat one can...
20:30:26langhaarrockerIf we can do that it is new.
20:30:39linuxstbZagor - What will happen if we have more than 16 tracks in memory?
20:30:46EnnaNlinuxstb: if cuefile is what i think it is, i'm bowing to you for working on that :)
20:30:52ZagorEnnaN: the current firmware does not support it, but we could do it
20:31:09Zagorlinuxstb: i don't remember. I think we simply stop buffering after 16 tracks.
20:31:28EnnaNzagor: ? like, daily build cannot, but could be able to?
20:31:46ZagorEnnaN: it can be written. we haven't written it.
20:31:47***Alert Mode OFF
20:31:49Phantomlinuxstb talk to Zagor who talk to EnnaN who talk to linuxstb
20:31:58ZagorPhantom: :)
20:32:06Phantomthat fun
20:32:24linuxstbZagor: A cuefile can contain up to 99 tracks, each with their own title, performer and index. I don't think I should buffer 16 cuefiles.
20:33:21linuxstbZagor: would anyone object to reducing it from 16 to 4 tracks? Does anyone have lots of 400K mp3 files?
20:33:32langhaarrockerZagor: might these 16 mp3 entries be abused for jump points within an mp3 file
20:34:02linuxstblanghaarrocker: that's a possiblity - but will complicate everything.
20:34:23langhaarrockerwe don't want to complicate things.
20:34:29Zagorlanghaarrocker: no
20:34:46Zagorcue files should be handled as playlists
20:34:55***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
20:35:19langhaarrockercan playlists specify jump points withim a mp3 file?
20:35:23linuxstbZagor: A playlist can contain an mp3 that has a cuefile. Does that mean we need recursive playlists?
20:36:03Zagorlinuxstb: no. we simply will not support cue files in playlists right now
20:36:21CtcpIgnored 2 channel CTCP requests in 33 minutes and 0 seconds at the last flood
20:36:21*Phantom think there are things more important than use cue, recording and add some games for exemple...
20:36:34Zagoriterative development: start simple, add complex things later
20:37:02langhaarrockerabout 80% of all posts start with Zagor:
20:37:03langhaarrockerThe rest is by Zagor.
20:37:31linuxstbZagor: How much RAM is reserved for playlists?
20:37:39Zagorlinuxstb: 10000 entries
20:37:46Zagori.e. 40000 bytes
20:38:11EnnaNlanghaar: and a couple of q/a's towards you;)
20:38:33linuxstbZagor: A general question - are directories handled the same as playlists?
20:39:34Zagorlinuxstb: yes. they are treated as in-ram playlists.
20:40:03Phantomdo I really need to use GDB ?
20:40:55 Part langhaarrocker
20:40:55Zagor561.63 MB .ajz files and 258.58 MB .mod files downloaded since aug 6!
20:41:12 Join langhaarrocker [0] (
20:41:15ZagorPhantom: you can't, unless you do the serial port mod
20:41:39*langhaarrocker has a draned keybord
20:41:54EnnaN.. 56 or so kb a piece...
20:42:13Zagor6388 .ajz files and 5414 .mod files
20:42:27Phantomcool, daly/cvs inclued ?
20:42:27*Zagor is looking at
20:42:33ZagorPhantom: yup
20:42:48EnnaNzagor: hmm.. i got 4728 mods...
20:42:59linuxstbZagor: my current (first attempt) at cuefile support adds it at the "id3 level" - i.e. the mp3info function calls my new read_cuefile routine.
20:43:25ZagorEnnaN: are you looking at the whole of 2002 or just one month?
20:43:43linuxstbThis makes it completely separate to playlists - i.e. allows playlists to contain mp3 files with cues.
20:43:53EnnaNzagor: i just did your 258.58*1024/56 :)
20:44:08Phantomare "Linus" everytimes such powerfull in computer using ???
20:44:11Zagorlinuxstb: just remember to keep firmware and apps separate. firmware code can never call app code.
20:44:47linuxstbZagor: Why is the id3 code in "firmware" ?
20:44:56EnnaNphantom: i think, if i get a kid, ill call him linus just to be sure...:)
20:45:34 Join edx|away [0] (
20:45:39Phantomafter, linus trosvald and is LINUX, Linus Nielsen Felt and Rockbox
20:45:53 Nick edx|away is now known as edx (
20:46:27EnnaNphantom: i don't think the other popular linus (you know, from snoopy) is a comp. wizz....
20:46:59EnnaNphanotm: on the other hand, he IS the intelectual of the gang...
20:47:22Phantomof the gang ...
20:50:11PhantomQuestion : who are in Credits ? What must I do to be in ?
20:50:32PhantomI've made 50% of the french translation...
20:50:56PhantomI ve test Peak Meter
20:51:14PhantomI ve tried new fonts...
20:52:25langhaarrockerI _did_ the Peak meter and still my name doesn't scroll over the lcd...
20:52:53EnnaNlanghaarrocker: you should pick a shorter name? :)
20:53:37langhaarrockerI want it to scroll all around the jukebox. I need a hardware mod for mounting three additional lcds.
20:54:39EnnaNlanghaar: you should get 5 additional, and than play "snake" with your name in 3d all around the thing...
20:54:46Zagorlinuxstb: it's in firmware because we considered the functionality integral to the device
20:56:53linuxstbZagor: I think cuefiles are part of the "meta-info" about the mp3 file so should be linked with the id3 code.
20:57:13linuxstbIn fact, cue file information can be stored in id3v2 tags - mp3cue for winamp does this.
20:57:18Zagorlinuxstb: i disagree. cue files are a CD thing, not an mp3 thing.
20:57:33Zagoranything can be stored in id3v2 tags... :-)
20:59:07langhaarrockereg glitches?
20:59:41PhantomI want to read Mini-Disc with AJR and play doom aswell
21:01:42linuxstbI'm going to post my patch (with cuefiles in the firmware) to the mailing list later tonight. Hopefully you can then suggest improvements.
21:02:38Zagorsounds good
21:02:58linuxstbOn another subject - did you see my post about the duplicate "lang.o" in the apps Makefile?
21:03:21Zagorumm, not yet. still wading through my mail :-)
21:03:44linuxstbI couldn't compile the latest CVS (gcc 2.95.2 under Linux) before removing that from the Makefile.
21:03:58Zagorvery strange
21:04:04langhaarrockermany languages don't compile. (deutsch & francais)
21:04:04langhaarrockerI posted patches
21:04:31langhaarrockerI think there are still some problems with cr/lf in *.lang files
21:05:30linuxstbZagor: the OBJS variable contains lang.o twice. Was gcc right to complain?
21:06:33Zagoryes it was. i'm just puzzled why it added two there.
21:07:01linuxstbI'm assuming no-one else has complained.
21:07:34Zagoryour patch assumes there is a lang.c in the target dir already
21:08:54Zagora clean build has no lang.c
21:09:30linuxstbI tested it many times with a completely clean build directory.
21:09:48linuxstbDoes it depend on the order things happen in the makefile?
21:10:06linuxstbI'm using an SMP machine by the way.
21:10:34Zagorbut your not using make -j2, are you?
21:11:02linuxstbNot explicity - could my distribution (SuSE) be doing that for me somehow?
21:11:09Zagori doubt it
21:12:59langhaarrockerapropos makefile: I think the dependencies could be improved. If the *.lang file is changed nothing gets rebuild.
21:14:02linuxstbI've just tried it again (brand new build directory) and get the same problem. I'll test some more now.
21:14:08Zagorlanghaarrocker: it updates here
21:14:34Zagorlinuxstb: which version of make are you running?
21:15:06linuxstbGNU Make version 3.79.1
21:15:58langhaarrockerZagor: stupid me. Mine does, too, when I edit the correct *.lang file.
21:16:14Zagorok, same as here. how are you running your build? mkdir build; cd build; ../tools/configure; make ?
21:16:19Zagorlanghaarrocker: hehe
21:16:29linuxstbZagor: yes - exactly that.
21:17:07Zagorlinuxstb: that's so strange. in that case, there *is* no lang.c in the target dir, so how can it get a double???
21:17:30linuxstbYes - there is a lang.c file in my build directory.
21:18:01linuxstbSorry - and in "apps"
21:18:32Zagorthere is no lang.c in apps. then you are not using cvs code.
21:18:55linuxstbI am using CVS - but something must have gone wrong. Problem solved.
21:19:17linuxstbI think I accidently ran "make" in the apps directory at one point. Time for a fresh checkout.
21:19:33Zagorthat sounds like a possible reason
21:21:54linuxstbYes - I've done a fresh checkout and everything is fine.
21:22:04langhaarrockerany news about t-shirt contests?
21:26:32Zagorlinuxstb: good
21:26:40Zagorlanghaarrocker: that's bagders domain :)
21:29:02langhaarrockerSo he get's all the t-shirts?
21:29:46Zagorhaha, yeah he'll never have to buy clothes again
21:31:02langhaarrockerMy collegues keep telling me I was a freak. To you have F-shirts, too?
21:31:36langhaarrocker(two left hands)
21:33:22Phantomquestion : how are you going to manage translation for those who don't compile there own .ajz, (for "normal" people)
21:33:40langhaarrockerthat's not normal people :)
21:34:47Phantomare you going make daily build for each language ?
21:35:11Zagorwe haven't decided
21:35:41langhaarrockerI think someone said something about a web interface so that you can configure the makefile with it and the build ist started interactively.
21:36:55Phantomthat should be very cool !
21:38:32langhaarrockerI want a waterproof laptop
21:38:42*langhaarrocker is about to enter the bath tub
21:48:37 Quit Phantom ()
21:50:11 Quit langhaarrocker (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:53:31linuxstbI'm just posting my first cuefile patch to the mailing list. I have to leave IRC now - but will probably return later.
21:56:50 Join Silly_Fly [0] (~luk@
21:59:45 Join xtac [0] (
21:59:58 Quit edx (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:00:00xtacIs it possible to have ogg support?
22:00:28xtacor is the chip in the archos,not capable of floating points
22:01:03EnnaNthe faq says no i think...
22:01:10Zagorxtac: the chip is a 12MHz risc. it can't even decode mp3.
22:01:47 Join Miran [0] (
22:01:58EnnaNquote: So the grim reality is that Ogg will never be supported by the Archos Players and Recorders
22:02:08xtacyeah I just read that
22:02:19xtacKinda sucks
22:02:39EnnaNwhats ogg anyways?
22:03:18xtacI should have purchased the recorder jukebox
22:05:43xtacjust wondering,which headphones do you guys like best with the archos
22:05:55xtacThe ones that came with it,one side is dead,and their not too great anyhow
22:06:10Zagori use Sony EX-70
22:07:07xtacare they good?
22:07:22Zagoryup, they are very good
22:07:35EnnaNone side is dead??
22:08:02xtacYes,one of the headphones is dead
22:08:07xtacthe left side
22:08:14xtacspeaker or w/e you call them
22:10:32EnnaN? mine is fine, but i use my sony MDR-CD250
22:11:05EnnaNlittle old, but still good..
22:16:04Silly_FlyI use sony MDR-Q33LP
22:17:46EnnaNthat's a whole different thing than mine :) my h.phones are huge..(little to big for traveling, some say), but nothing (wind/people/trains) bothers you :)
22:28:36 Quit Silly_Fly ("Connection reset by peer ( )")
22:34:56***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22:35:51 Quit Zagor ("Client Exiting")
22:42:14 Nick _seb_ is now known as seb-away (
22:52:42 Quit Miran ("Its not that you do not see, it is mearly that your eyes do not perceive")
23:03:58 Quit linuxstb ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.0")
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