| 00:00:40 | LinusN | hola |
| 00:00:43 | | Quit silencer_ (Remote closed the connection) |
| 00:02:16 | amiconn | Seems I was a bit confused last night. |
| 00:02:28 | LinusN | ? |
| 00:02:53 | amiconn | Yes, I confused PA and PB (RTW and EOD). |
| 00:03:10 | amiconn | Rockbox used indeed PB14 |
| 00:04:21 | amiconn | Anyway, I implemented my modifications into the recording transfer (first version is not asm, but plain C) |
| 00:04:41 | amiconn | Currently doing a longer test recording |
| 00:05:54 | amiconn | I also implemented (quick hack) displaying the spdif crc status in the recording screen |
| 00:06:34 | amiconn | The 2 data sheets disagreed on the correct register number, but I found the right one |
| 00:08:02 | amiconn | With several short test recordings I was able to trigger the spdif synchronization bug. This gives totally distorted recordings, but not more bad frames than usual |
| 00:09:00 | amiconn | However, I found another rockbox bug :( |
| 00:09:31 | amiconn | You can call the recording menu from the recording screen via F1, even when currently recording |
| 00:09:44 | amiconn | If you go back, the recording is stopped! |
| 00:10:01 | midk | amiconn, actually stopped or just shows the stopped icon? |
| 00:10:50 | amiconn | It's actually stopped, the recording size displays as 0 bytes. "Play" will start a new recording |
| 00:11:18 | amiconn | (At least this happens when source == spdif) |
| 00:11:52 | LinusN | bad |
| 00:12:01 | midk | s/bad/bad Linus. |
| 00:12:02 | midk | :) |
| 00:12:07 | LinusN | the lcd on the iriver is parallel |
| 00:12:25 | LinusN | i have identified d0-d7 |
| 00:12:32 | LinusN | and the cs |
| 00:12:57 | LinusN | LA hhokup is next |
| 00:13:00 | LinusN | hookup |
| 00:25:33 | | Join ripnetUK [0] (~mirc@82-70-100-230.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) |
| 00:27:35 | | Join mecraw_ [0] (~lmarlow@69.2.235.2) |
| 00:28:13 | | Join silencer [0] (~silencer@zen.via.ecp.fr) |
| 00:34:55 | LinusN | the bdm wiggler is now in Paris, coming closer... :-) |
| 00:35:52 | bagawk | whats what? |
| 00:35:58 | ripnetUK | where does it have to get to?? |
| 00:36:05 | ripnetUK | the wiggler that is :) |
| 00:36:35 | LinusN | it's a debugger interface for the coldfire cpu, and it's on its way to me in stockholm |
| 00:36:47 | bagawk | neato |
| 00:36:54 | bagawk | time to go do school work |
| 00:36:56 | bagawk | see you :) |
| 00:36:59 | LinusN | cu |
| 00:37:09 | | Quit bagawk ("Leaving") |
| 00:38:10 | ripnetUK | its 2008km by road from Paris to Stockholm :) |
| 00:40:34 | | Quit zeekoe ("bed time") |
| 00:41:42 | amiconn | LinusN: Why does usb_slave_mode(true) call ata_init() before handing over control to the usb bridge? Thinking about the mmc driver... |
| 00:43:59 | | Quit mecraw (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 00:48:35 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 00:49:17 | | Join webguest93 [0] (~c7e73180@labb.contactor.se) |
| 00:50:46 | | Join PaulS [0] (~0d0274bd@labb.contactor.se) |
| 00:51:42 | PaulS | Is Dave Hooper around? |
| 00:53:30 | | Quit webguest93 (Client Quit) |
| 00:54:12 | LinusN | amiconn: i din't remember |
| 00:54:15 | LinusN | don't |
| 00:54:42 | LinusN | it may not even be necessary... |
| 00:54:55 | amiconn | The only purpose I can imagine is switching on the ata power... |
| 00:54:58 | LinusN | could be some old obsolete workaround |
| 00:55:49 | amiconn | Although I don't know if it may happen that ata is not yet initialized when entering usb mode |
| 00:56:23 | amiconn | In that case, ata_standby(15) wouldn't work without ata_init() |
| 01:00 |
| 01:04:15 | LinusN | ata_standby(15) should be removed and replaced with changing the powersave mode instead |
| 01:05:06 | LinusN | since ata_standby attempts to spin down immediately |
| 01:05:15 | LinusN | gotta reboot |
| 01:05:17 | LinusN | cu soon |
| 01:05:20 | | Part LinusN |
| 01:08:06 | | Join LinusN [0] (~linus@labb.contactor.se) |
| 01:08:32 | PaulS | I'm having all sorts of troubles getting my attachment in IriverPort up... It claims to have attached the file but browsing to it returns "Internal Error" from the server. |
| 01:08:33 | amiconn | hi again |
| 01:09:15 | PaulS | (Oo.. Hi LinusN! How's the River hangin'? :-) |
| 01:10:13 | LinusN | PaulS: i think the web server is confused, and tries to run the script as a cgi |
| 01:10:22 | LinusN | cool exploit! |
| 01:10:37 | LinusN | change the extension |
| 01:11:41 | PaulS | Oh, BTW, LinusN, you need an A0 pin on that LCD display pinout, basically the Command/Data switch. |
| 01:14:30 | PaulS | Shweet.. Now I'll fixeup the links |
| 01:16:49 | | Join webguest00 [0] (~524664e6@labb.contactor.se) |
| 01:17:00 | | Quit _aLF (".") |
| 01:17:53 | | Quit webguest00 (Client Quit) |
| 01:22:43 | | Quit Headie (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 01:23:14 | | Join Headie [0] (~hehe@fsto6.sto.sema.se) |
| 01:23:39 | LinusN | PaulS: i know, i just don't know which yet |
| 01:25:04 | | Quit mecraw_ ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com)") |
| 01:28:17 | PaulS | (More about A0) If you're using a scope to look at it, you'll find that the A0 signal goes active (high) for multple CS cycles during long data bursts. |
| 01:28:45 | PaulS | ...at least that's my assessment from looking at the code. |
| 01:31:49 | PaulS | The CS is driven by the ColdFire internals, and the A0 is driven by GPIO, and they just leave A0 high during the course of a data burst. |
| 01:37:58 | LinusN | hmmm, tracing with a logic analyzer, and it doesn't make any sense... |
| 01:46:29 | LinusN | anyway, i gotta sleep now, cu around |
| 01:46:36 | midk | nite LinusN |
| 01:46:41 | | Part LinusN |
| 01:48:12 | PaulS | Awww... He left, and I had more suggestions.. Aie well. |
| 01:48:26 | midk | suggest them now, there are logs |
| 01:50:44 | PaulS | Well, if he's using a analyzer, he should just trigger on one of the control words like 0xB1, and follow the trace forward. The B1 byte should have A0 inactive. The next byte should have A0 active, and the next byte will be a 0x13 with A0 inactive again.' |
| 01:52:30 | PaulS | From a software point of view, though, I'm not sure this is very important, since we already know where (which GPIO pin, what register address) A0 is and what it does. |
| 02:00 |
| 02:06:27 | | Join _Headie [0] (~hehe@fsto6.sto.sema.se) |
| 02:06:28 | | Quit Headie (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 02:09:55 | PaulS | Anyways, I'm off as well. Later, folks. |
| 02:10:47 | midk | later |
| 02:11:39 | | Quit PaulS ("CGI:IRC") |
| 02:27:49 | | Join Headie [0] (~hehe@fsto6.sto.sema.se) |
| 02:27:49 | | Quit _Headie (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 02:41:53 | | Join bagawk [0] (Lee@ACC71881.ipt.aol.com) |
| 02:45:50 | | Quit amiconn (" pow") |
| 02:48:37 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 03:00 |
| 03:25:24 | | Quit gromit` (Remote closed the connection) |
| 03:38:06 | | Join gromit`` [0] (~gromit@ALagny-151-1-22-167.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 03:38:06 | | Quit bagawk (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 03:41:46 | | Join BC [0] (~BlueChip@cpc3-colc1-3-0-cust61.colc.cable.ntl.com) |
| 04:00 |
| 04:05:15 | | Part BC |
| 04:48:38 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 05:00 |
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| 05:51:58 | | Join maikeul [0] (~gromit@ALagny-151-1-27-251.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 05:57:54 | dwihno | bonjour |
| 05:58:14 | dwihno | baguette avec saucisson et fromage pour moi, s'il vous plait |
| 06:00 |
| 06:02:14 | | Quit gromit`` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 06:12:39 | | Quit scott666_ ("i'll be back...eventually...") |
| 06:13:18 | | Join flabat [0] (~f@pcp09993805pcs.narlington.nj.comcast.net) |
| 06:13:44 | flabat | i just want to say : thank you! |
| 06:14:36 | flabat | any developers online? |
| 06:15:57 | midk | me.. somewhat |
| 06:16:50 | flabat | i just installed rockbox in my studio20, upgrade the hdd to 80gb |
| 06:17:02 | flabat | this is awesome software |
| 06:17:54 | midk | :) |
| 06:19:40 | dwihno | 80gb? nice |
| 06:20:24 | dwihno | does the studio have a 2 line charcell or a lcd? |
| 06:20:29 | dwihno | I never got the hang of that |
| 06:21:16 | midk | charcells |
| 06:21:25 | dwihno | :/ |
| 06:21:38 | dwihno | then flabat is missing the lcd ride :( |
| 06:23:07 | midk | :\ yeah |
| 06:23:17 | dwihno | the best improvement, imho |
| 06:23:26 | flabat | yes |
| 06:23:31 | flabat | 2 lcd lines |
| 06:23:58 | flabat | whats the lcd ride? |
| 06:24:27 | midk | bitmap lcd: ~8 lines, depending on font you're using |
| 06:24:31 | midk | graphics, etc |
| 06:24:38 | midk | jpeg viewer, video player |
| 06:24:53 | flabat | no, just text on the studio 20 |
| 06:24:59 | midk | right |
| 06:25:06 | midk | the bitmap lcd on the recorders does the above |
| 06:25:09 | flabat | no money for that |
| 06:25:23 | dwihno | but you have money for a 80 gbyte disk ;) |
| 06:25:32 | midk | i recall they were about the same price |
| 06:25:49 | flabat | this was a unit with bad hard drive and the hard drive i got it for free |
| 06:25:54 | dwihno | ah, okay |
| 06:25:59 | dwihno | freebies for all! :) |
| 06:26:03 | midk | cool cool :) |
| 06:26:04 | flabat | so is a 80gb mp3 player for free |
| 06:27:28 | midk | both the player and hard drive were free |
| 06:27:30 | midk | ? |
| 06:27:33 | flabat | yes |
| 06:27:46 | midk | certainly not bad |
| 06:28:56 | flabat | and with the firmware update even better, the original firmware is really bad |
| 06:29:37 | dwihno | flashing the firmware is also great |
| 06:29:51 | dwihno | decreasing from a 15 sec boot time to ~1 sec |
| 06:30:00 | flabat | is not dangerous |
| 06:30:17 | dwihno | Should not be if you know what you are doing |
| 06:30:49 | dwihno | Also, flashing the so-called rombox frees an additional ~160 kbyte for the mpeg buffer |
| 06:31:03 | flabat | mmm, i can wait 15 secs i guess |
| 06:31:40 | flabat | so whats the benefits with thw buffer |
| 06:32:09 | dwihno | I've read something about a 4% runtime increase |
| 06:32:47 | midk | erm |
| 06:32:49 | flabat | with the old player also |
| 06:32:52 | midk | can't do rombox/flashing on player |
| 06:32:58 | dwihno | midk: oh. |
| 06:33:01 | flabat | ah |
| 06:33:05 | dwihno | midk: Well, didn't know that :) |
| 06:33:07 | midk | :) |
| 06:33:11 | dwihno | midk: Another reason for getting the recorder ;) |
| 06:33:37 | midk | dwihno, high five :] |
| 06:33:40 | * | midk high fives |
| 06:33:47 | * | dwihno high fives |
| 06:33:50 | dwihno | \o/ |
| 06:34:09 | midk | o |
| 06:34:11 | midk | / \ |
| 06:34:13 | midk | :) |
| 06:34:40 | dwihno | So, what do you think about rockbox on ihp? |
| 06:34:49 | dwihno | will it see the light of day? |
| 06:34:54 | midk | sounds very interesting actually |
| 06:35:02 | midk | hmm. it will take a while but i think they can do it |
| 06:36:37 | dwihno | I will never doubt any project with the team members Zag/Bag/Lin |
| 06:37:10 | midk | same reasoning here :) |
| 06:37:27 | midk | i definitely don't doubt that if they want to they could do it.. and i think it would be very cool to have that running |
| 06:37:38 | dwihno | true |
| 06:37:39 | midk | instead of it dying out with the old archos series it could live on in the newer ihp models |
| 06:38:13 | dwihno | A successful port on the ihp will open the doors, I think |
| 06:38:53 | dwihno | and perhaps make the iriver guys uncomfortable |
| 06:39:13 | dwihno | I guess it's not all sugar and cake |
| 06:39:22 | dwihno | it's salt and vinegar too |
| 06:39:27 | midk | they're cool imo.. they replace units basically no matter how they broke down |
| 06:39:29 | flabat | ok guys, thanks again and good night |
| 06:39:35 | dwihno | nightie |
| 06:39:40 | midk | their firmware/support isn't bad compared to most companies |
| 06:39:41 | midk | night |
| 06:39:49 | | Part flabat |
| 06:41:10 | dwihno | It's a tough market, so I guess their high prices perhaps increases the support and software divisions of the company |
| 06:41:36 | midk | they are relatively high priced, true |
| 06:41:44 | midk | but nice hardware/abilities make up for it |
| 06:41:57 | dwihno | yup |
| 06:42:00 | midk | fm tuner, 320kbps cbr recording, optical in/out, nice large lcd, etc |
| 06:42:04 | dwihno | they use 2.5" or 1.8"? Can't remember |
| 06:42:27 | dwihno | Did you see the screenshot Zagor showed yesterday? |
| 06:42:28 | midk | 1.8 i believe |
| 06:42:32 | midk | yeah, of the sim? |
| 06:42:34 | midk | that was really cool |
| 06:42:35 | dwihno | yeah |
| 06:42:38 | midk | and my clock was in it of course :) |
| 06:42:44 | dwihno | it was? |
| 06:42:44 | dwihno | hm |
| 06:42:45 | midk | advertisement is good |
| 06:42:48 | dwihno | Didn't see that :) |
| 06:42:49 | midk | the filename at least |
| 06:42:52 | midk | :) |
| 06:42:58 | dwihno | heh |
| 06:43:19 | dwihno | Using the prop font, most titles will fit the screen |
| 06:44:35 | midk | yeah, that is really cool |
| 06:45:54 | dwihno | My first archos' disk died a couple of weeks ago |
| 06:46:10 | dwihno | Do you think rapid cold and heat changes can damage the disk? |
| 06:46:16 | midk | :\ sorry about that. hopefully it's backed up? |
| 06:46:22 | midk | it's possible, but doubtful... |
| 06:46:28 | midk | if you keep it cool you may be able to boot it |
| 06:46:49 | dwihno | I mean, swedish winters can be quite cold |
| 06:46:53 | dwihno | (which sucks, btw) |
| 06:47:04 | midk | i bet |
| 06:47:17 | plok | iRiver has a 1.8 drive |
| 06:47:23 | midk | so.. it was in the snow then you grabbed it and put it in the oven to dethaw it? :) |
| 06:47:32 | dwihno | haha :) |
| 06:47:39 | dwihno | thanks plok |
| 06:47:56 | dwihno | I always keep backups |
| 06:48:06 | midk | good |
| 06:48:06 | dwihno | since I had a disk failure a couple of years ago |
| 06:48:09 | midk | good boy. |
| 06:48:17 | dwihno | Lost a ton of pre-2k sourcecode |
| 06:48:20 | midk | yeah, i had a disk failure. no, i don't back up. |
| 06:48:22 | midk | :) |
| 06:48:40 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 06:48:50 | dwihno | Including a rather nice VESA2 engine (first time I ever read docs to accomplish anything) :) |
| 06:49:16 | midk | hmm. well, that sucks, but i guess you learned a lesson |
| 06:49:22 | dwihno | yup |
| 06:49:30 | midk | and just remember, it was destined to happen. |
| 06:49:40 | midk | well, no, if you would have backed up it would have been avoided. ;) |
| 06:50:20 | dwihno | The great giant fork in the sky has already foreseen my future :) |
| 06:50:37 | midk | you sure that's not a spork? ;p |
| 06:50:58 | dwihno | :) |
| 06:53:44 | dwihno | yum |
| 06:53:46 | dwihno | chocolate candy |
| 06:54:07 | midk | yum, chocolate covered raisins. |
| 06:54:29 | dwihno | yuck :P |
| 06:54:29 | dwihno | :) |
| 06:54:35 | dwihno | those taste like... |
| 06:54:40 | dwihno | chocolate covered raisins :P |
| 06:54:43 | midk | haha. :) |
| 06:59:11 | | Join LinusN [0] (~linus@labb.contactor.se) |
| 06:59:20 | dwihno | Welcome back! |
| 06:59:24 | LinusN | thx |
| 06:59:31 | dwihno | We were busy praising the project ;D |
| 07:00 |
| 07:00:56 | LinusN | :-) |
| 07:01:05 | midk | haha! yeah. :) |
| 07:01:24 | midk | i recall something about a spork too. |
| 07:01:35 | dwihno | it was a FORK goddamnit! :) |
| 07:02:01 | dwihno | I actually wrote an ultra light encryption thingie which I named "sporkel" |
| 07:02:02 | midk | spork? fork? fillet knife? what's the difference. |
| 07:02:05 | midk | :] |
| 07:02:28 | midk | when i was trying to save tetris high score to disk i had to have an encrypted number to make sure it was unmodified.. |
| 07:02:44 | midk | the algorithm was something like "level*rows/blocks" |
| 07:02:56 | midk | i just sort of scrapped the idea. |
| 07:03:07 | dwihno | doesn't really matter |
| 07:03:14 | dwihno | people who cheat sucks anyhow :) |
| 07:03:23 | midk | yeah, that's it |
| 07:04:02 | dwihno | hmmm |
| 07:04:13 | dwihno | It would be really swell if I could make windows start my processes a bit different |
| 07:04:30 | midk | hm? how? |
| 07:04:39 | dwihno | disk i/o intense applications would've been given lower priority |
| 07:04:50 | midk | bootvis, if it works, is great. |
| 07:05:02 | midk | i used it once a while back.. it shaved ~15s off my booting time |
| 07:05:03 | dwihno | bootvis? |
| 07:05:24 | midk | it analyzes which drivers are loaded when, how long etc, then rearranges the order and stuff to make it quicker |
| 07:05:32 | midk | yeah.. google for it, ms took it off their site |
| 07:05:33 | dwihno | aaah... cool stuff! |
| 07:06:17 | dwihno | wonder why |
| 07:06:23 | dwihno | xp still boots quite fast |
| 07:06:53 | midk | yeah, it just went faster for me :) |
| 07:06:59 | midk | it overlaps some and stuff |
| 07:07:03 | midk | loading earlier |
| 07:07:05 | midk | not really sure. |
| 07:10:09 | dwihno | I read something about being able to replace some files on win2k with the winxp equivalents to increase boot time |
| 07:11:07 | midk | hmm |
| 07:11:10 | midk | wiat, to increase? |
| 07:11:11 | midk | wait* |
| 07:11:55 | dwihno | wups |
| 07:11:59 | dwihno | decrease ;) |
| 07:12:01 | dwihno | hehe |
| 07:12:10 | dwihno | "I think my computer runs too fast! I need to slow it down!" :) |
| 07:12:17 | midk | :) |
| 07:12:22 | dwihno | That reminds me of the turbo buttons on those old 486 machines |
| 07:12:32 | midk | i never understood the purpose. |
| 07:15:54 | LinusN | easy, many programs couldn't handle the extra speed, like Tetris for example |
| 07:16:10 | LinusN | so you had an option to run at a compatible speed |
| 07:16:12 | midk | tetris?! |
| 07:16:15 | midk | TETRIS?! |
| 07:16:26 | dwihno | what's with your tetris obsession, midk? :) |
| 07:16:35 | midk | tetris obsession?! |
| 07:16:38 | midk | TETRIS obsession?~ |
| 07:16:40 | midk | :) |
| 07:16:55 | LinusN | ever tried to run the original PC version of tetris on a modern pc? |
| 07:17:14 | midk | i imagine it would occur such like that as... er... no. |
| 07:17:33 | LinusN | the timing is done with delay loops |
| 07:17:47 | LinusN | so it runs faster on faster pc:s |
| 07:18:06 | midk | hmm. |
| 07:18:07 | midk | well.... |
| 07:18:10 | midk | hmm. |
| 07:18:42 | dwihno | Yay! Firefox 0.10 is out! |
| 07:18:50 | dwihno | I like Firefox and Thunderbirds. |
| 07:18:51 | dwihno | s- |
| 07:18:52 | dwihno | -s |
| 07:19:17 | midk | 1.0 you mean. |
| 07:19:38 | midk | and it's a preview release, not official 1.0, |
| 07:19:43 | midk | and it's been out for about 2 days. :) |
| 07:21:59 | dwihno | wuups |
| 07:22:06 | dwihno | Well, I'm living under a rock, okay?! :) |
| 07:24:32 | midk | yeah, i know. |
| 07:24:33 | midk | ;) |
| 07:25:35 | | Join AciD [0] (~acid@longchamp44-1-82-67-133-87.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 07:26:31 | dwihno | time to test this stuff |
| 07:26:44 | midk | WHICH STUFF?! |
| 07:30:09 | dwihno | Just a plain reboot |
| 07:30:47 | midk | hm, ok. |
| 07:30:55 | midk | permission granted. |
| 07:30:56 | midk | :) |
| 07:31:49 | midk | bedtime anyways, nite |
| 07:33:03 | dwihno | nite |
| 08:00 |
| 08:41:56 | | Quit Hadaka (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) |
| 08:48:41 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 08:54:14 | | Join [av]bani [0] (~goemon@washuu.anime.net) |
| 08:55:40 | | Part LePoulpe303 |
| 08:57:35 | [av]bani | no dead ihp's yet? |
| 08:59:57 | [av]bani | re: rng |
| 09:00 |
| 09:00:18 | [av]bani | you can collect entropy from user button presses and ide interrupt timing |
| 09:00:27 | [av]bani | save it when you shutdown and restore when you boot back up |
| 09:00:32 | | Join Zagor [242] (~bjst@labb.contactor.se) |
| 09:03:44 | [av]bani | http://forum.iriverlounge.de/viewtopic.php?t=196 |
| 09:03:50 | [av]bani | any idea wtf that whine is about? |
| 09:07:56 | Zagor | they got sour when we quoted information from their forum in our wiki |
| 09:07:56 | Zagor | we gave proper credit and references, but they still didn't like it |
| 09:07:57 | Zagor | so I removed the information again |
| 09:08:04 | | Join Fusen [0] (~Fusen@fusen.user) |
| 09:08:08 | Zagor | but that wasn't enough either! |
| 09:08:18 | Zagor | so I gave up and ignored them |
| 09:08:54 | | Part Fusen |
| 09:10:50 | LinusN | [av]bani: we have no rng entropy problems in rockbox |
| 09:21:38 | [av]bani | re: an ihp to mangle |
| 09:22:00 | [av]bani | maybe start a donation pool colecting funds for a sacrificial ihp-120 |
| 09:22:15 | [av]bani | anyone who donates >$10 wil get early access to rockbox beta testing |
| 09:22:17 | [av]bani | etc |
| 09:22:21 | LinusN | we can use the regular donation fund |
| 09:22:25 | Zagor | we have a donation fund already. it just feels bad to buy a brand new box and destroy it... |
| 09:22:44 | [av]bani | cool |
| 09:22:59 | [av]bani | well, did you have to destroy any archos'en ? |
| 09:23:13 | Zagor | no, since they didn't use bga |
| 09:24:37 | Zagor | that was fast :) |
| 09:24:40 | [av]bani | ah, did bdm wiggler come out of the fund? |
| 09:24:44 | Zagor | yes |
| 09:24:48 | [av]bani | yey |
| 09:25:13 | [av]bani | that works :) |
| 09:25:21 | Zagor | :) |
| 09:25:39 | | Join webguest46 [0] (~a9cfc25d@labb.contactor.se) |
| 09:26:14 | | Join Naked [0] (naked@naked.iki.fi) |
| 09:26:24 | | Nick Naked is now known as Hadaka (naked@naked.iki.fi) |
| 09:27:43 | | Quit webguest46 (Client Quit) |
| 09:29:23 | [av]bani | ah so lcd is parallel after all |
| 09:29:25 | [av]bani | that is good :) |
| 09:29:27 | LinusN | yup |
| 09:29:56 | LinusN | i hooked up my logic analyzer yesterday, but didn't get any wiser, will work some more on it |
| 09:30:14 | | Join Bagder [0] (~daniel@1-1-5-26a.hud.sth.bostream.se) |
| 09:30:39 | [av]bani | i imagine many lcds even from different vendors share similar command sets |
| 09:31:07 | [av]bani | since companies may want to multiple source parts |
| 09:33:04 | | Join pillo [0] (~trillian@navlab03.dei.unipd.it) |
| 09:33:54 | | Join PaulS [0] (~437e19f6@labb.contactor.se) |
| 09:35:33 | PaulS | Hullo guys. |
| 09:35:37 | Bagder | 'lo |
| 09:35:38 | [av]bani | When I hit track-forward it sends any of a few strings: "1134-1", "1279", "134-2A", "13589". None of the strings are terminated by whitespace/cr/nl. I haven't yet figured out the rhyme or reason for each, although I think one of these means "went to next album". At startup I got a "674". |
| 09:35:54 | [av]bani | if they code like me, each digit probably indicates a function/routine |
| 09:36:20 | Zagor | [av]bani: are you talking about the remote? |
| 09:36:32 | [av]bani | no, thats re: the rs232 output |
| 09:36:41 | Zagor | on the rx/tx pads? |
| 09:36:44 | [av]bani | yes |
| 09:37:01 | Zagor | ok. free debug output :) |
| 09:37:08 | PaulS | [av]bani −− that's correct. I've seen where in the code that lives, and I know where the "putc" routine is. |
| 09:37:10 | [av]bani | you havent kept up with the wiki? |
| 09:37:21 | Zagor | apparently not :) |
| 09:37:30 | [av]bani | pauls, my guesses have been good so far :) |
| 09:37:57 | [av]bani | 1 is probably "main" |
| 09:38:01 | [av]bani | the rest, shrug |
| 09:38:22 | [av]bani | A maybe ata :) |
| 09:40:24 | LinusN | maybe it's similar to rockbox's panic error codes |
| 09:40:33 | PaulS | "1 is probably 'main'" −− not quite. It's debugging different spots in the track access routines. The numbers are pretty much linear 0-9 in the code, and depending on the path through the branches different digits get triggered. |
| 09:41:45 | [av]bani | probably something which gave them a lot of trouble |
| 09:41:52 | [av]bani | so they put in debug for it |
| 09:41:58 | [av]bani | though they never took it out, interesting |
| 09:45:09 | plok | Is there anything wrong with rockbox.haxx.se, or is it just my web proxy? |
| 09:45:21 | [av]bani | just you |
| 09:45:34 | PaulS | In the 1.40 image, putc is 0x2CBE0. The byte pushed on the stack before the JSR is the ASCII byte that'll spit out the TX. |
| 09:45:34 | [av]bani | :) |
| 09:47:18 | PaulS | The site has been slow for me, but I don't have a lot of context. |
| 09:48:27 | LinusN | it should be faster now |
| 09:51:41 | PaulS | The other thing they failed to take out was all the calls to debug prints. They ifdeffed out the actual content of the debug print, but the strings are there and the call to the prints are there. There are different kinds of debug print functions −− each takes a string arg, but some act like printf("%s %d"), while others are string-only. |
| 09:53:17 | [av]bani | sounds like someone forgot to remove -DDEBUG :) |
| 09:53:26 | [av]bani | or theyre too noobish to have #ifdef'd it |
| 09:53:52 | PaulS | Don't complain. :-) |
| 09:54:06 | [av]bani | tbh the iriver firmware is pretty bad, i suspect most of their code is purchased 3rd party that they threw together |
| 09:54:25 | [av]bani | well i complain when _I_ know i do better |
| 09:54:27 | [av]bani | :P |
| 09:54:42 | dwihno | [av]bani: from what I've heard, the iriver firmware is supposed to be quiote good |
| 09:55:07 | plok | hmm, I just tried building the cross compiler GCC again (with −−enable-languages=c only!) and I'm getting the same error again |
| 09:55:26 | PaulS | But... but... those debug strings are going to tell me how the whole thing works! |
| 09:55:26 | plok | dwihno: The iRiver firmware could be a LOT better, so easily! |
| 09:55:33 | Zagor | plok: you need to use the same −−prefix for binutils and gcc |
| 09:55:54 | plok | Zagor I'm sure that I did. I get this error |
| 09:56:07 | dwihno | If there was rockbox for iriver, I would have to buy one just for the cause of it :) |
| 09:56:32 | plok | insn-emit.c:8549: Internal compiler error in simplify_subreg, at simplify-rtx.c:2452 |
| 09:56:48 | Zagor | wow. I haven't seen that problem before. |
| 09:57:01 | Zagor | what version is your native compiler? |
| 09:57:08 | plok | gcc version 3.2 20020903 (Red Hat Linux 8.0 3.2-7) |
| 09:57:15 | Zagor | should be fine |
| 09:57:31 | dwihno | have red hat stopped their custom gcc patching? |
| 09:57:46 | Zagor | no idea. don't they patch everything? |
| 09:57:50 | | Join MrMoo [0] (~me@194.152.87.150) |
| 09:58:00 | plok | I'll blow it all away and start from scratch again just to make sure |
| 09:58:00 | * | Zagor uses debian |
| 09:58:08 | [av]bani | redhat hacks everything |
| 09:58:22 | [av]bani | tbh what they patch was generally broken to begin with though |
| 09:58:37 | [av]bani | so its generally not worse :) |
| 09:59:20 | Bagder | I disagree with that description |
| 09:59:26 | dwihno | Zagor: probably... I guess you should use one of the "vanilla" distrubitions... (are there any left?) |
| 09:59:31 | Bagder | but nevermind |
| 10:00 |
| 10:00:35 | [av]bani | gentoo |
| 10:00:38 | [av]bani | is the closest |
| 10:00:52 | Bagder | debian is the coolest ;-) |
| 10:01:04 | * | Bagder joins the distro wat |
| 10:01:08 | Bagder | war |
| 10:02:20 | plok | Maybe I should try building on windows instead... |
| 10:02:25 | plok | </flame> |
| 10:03:28 | pillo | I use gentoo too ;) |
| 10:03:43 | pillo | hi all, sorry to say hello this way but couldn't resist ^_^ |
| 10:04:03 | Zagor | :) |
| 10:04:22 | Zagor | plok: write a doc if you succeed ;) |
| 10:04:28 | | Part [av]bani |
| 10:04:46 | pillo | I'm watching this channel these days as I'm interested in the iriver port too, and hope to start contributing soon. |
| 10:05:37 | | Quit ripnetUK () |
| 10:05:39 | | Join webguest72 [0] (~a9cfc25d@labb.contactor.se) |
| 10:06:22 | plok | Zagor: Sure :) Before or after I manage to build it with a c++ compiler? |
| 10:06:42 | plok | I've rebuilt binutils from scratch and am rebuilding gcc now |
| 10:08:38 | LinusN | plok: don't bother, we don't need a c++ compiler |
| 10:10:47 | plok | I was joking, I got the messgae yesterday :) |
| 10:11:21 | * | dwihno uses slackware |
| 10:11:29 | dwihno | Until I get my 250 gig disk working under FreeBSD ;D |
| 10:11:47 | dwihno | It's some kind of fat32 file system issue |
| 10:12:28 | | Quit Bagder ("Leaving") |
| 10:12:43 | plok | grr... same error again :( |
| 10:13:55 | Zagor | weird |
| 10:14:11 | Zagor | maybe we should tar up our build |
| 10:15:12 | plok | I have another linux box with an earlier version of redhat. I could try that one first |
| 10:15:20 | LinusN | dwihno: 250gig disk, are you sure that your ATA controller can handle that? |
| 10:15:27 | plok | All we have at work are redhat machines |
| 10:16:02 | Zagor | the rockbox build server is currently an old redhat too |
| 10:16:16 | | Quit webguest72 ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") |
| 10:17:09 | Zagor | http://rockbox.haxx.se/sh-gcc-3.3.4.tar.bz2 (22MB) |
| 10:17:53 | plok | thx! |
| 10:18:07 | | Quit PaulS ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") |
| 10:18:39 | Zagor | uh, bad idea to restart apache right now. sorry :) |
| 10:19:06 | plok | I was going to say, I only got 19k?! |
| 10:19:13 | plok | :) |
| 10:28:18 | plok | This other machine is so slow :( |
| 10:42:08 | dwihno | LinusN: I connect it using USB... |
| 10:42:36 | dwihno | LinusN: Works flawlessly using Wintendo and Linux... The fat32 driver for FreeBSD has some limits. |
| 10:42:57 | Zagor | boo :) |
| 10:43:09 | dwihno | Perhaps you should patch it, Zagor? ;) |
| 10:43:19 | dwihno | my co-worker brought senap! |
| 10:43:27 | dwihno | Guess who's gonna have ärtsoppa deluxe for lunch? |
| 10:48:42 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 10:53:29 | | Part pillo |
| 10:54:58 | plok | Cool, I have the archive. Thanks Zagor! |
| 10:55:03 | plok | later |
| 11:00 |
| 11:36:18 | | Join ripnetUK [0] (~mirc@82-70-100-230.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) |
| 11:37:39 | | Join amiconn [0] (~jens@pD9E7F596.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 11:45:46 | Headie | Ärtsoppa and pannkaka.. Yummie |
| 11:57:29 | | Join Lynx_ [0] (lynx@134.95.189.59) |
| 12:00 |
| 12:11:30 | | Join ashridah [0] (ashridah@dialup-a1-180.Melbourne.netspace.net.au) |
| 12:23:44 | | Join Bagder [0] (~daniel@1-1-5-26a.hud.sth.bostream.se) |
| 12:32:20 | Bagder | Zagor: http://rockbox.haxx.se/dl.cgi?bin=install is brokeb |
| 12:32:24 | Bagder | broken |
| 12:32:38 | Bagder | and the source one too |
| 12:32:47 | Bagder | I bet you've removed my symlinks |
| 12:33:04 | Bagder | or something |
| 12:34:21 | Zagor | checking... |
| 12:35:23 | Bagder | the script checks in the dir named as the 'bin' parts says |
| 12:35:48 | Zagor | hmm, those dirs don't exist |
| 12:35:52 | Bagder | no |
| 12:35:55 | Bagder | I hade them as symlinks |
| 12:36:00 | Bagder | made |
| 12:36:05 | Bagder | ln -s . install |
| 12:36:09 | Zagor | i haven't removed them afaik |
| 12:36:15 | Bagder | weird |
| 12:36:17 | Bagder | or |
| 12:36:25 | Bagder | perhaps the auto-remover removes them... |
| 12:36:29 | Bagder | I'll check |
| 12:37:21 | Bagder | oh yes it does! |
| 12:37:22 | Bagder | hehe |
| 12:37:24 | Bagder | how silly |
| 12:38:16 | Bagder | btw, should we keep files longer now when they're no longer fill the daily-build page? |
| 12:38:40 | LinusN | sure |
| 12:38:45 | Zagor | why not |
| 12:38:54 | Zagor | a month perhaps |
| 12:39:02 | Bagder | ok, increasing to 30 days |
| 12:40:13 | Bagder | currently the files use 29MB for 6 days |
| 12:41:34 | Zagor | currently we have 7.5G free :) |
| 12:41:46 | Bagder | and the auto-cvs-build dir takes 110MB |
| 12:42:14 | Bagder | room to grow indeed! ;-) |
| 12:48:44 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 12:55:08 | | Join dwihno_ [0] (~dw@81.8.224.89) |
| 12:55:08 | | Quit dwihno (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 13:00 |
| 13:22:04 | | Quit AciD (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) |
| 13:25:23 | | Join [IDC]Dragon [0] (~d90a3255@labb.contactor.se) |
| 13:28:49 | amiconn | hi Jörg! |
| 13:30:21 | amiconn | [IDC]Dragon: Yesterday I digged a bit into the beginnings of an mmc driver. However, I have some questions you could help me to solve. |
| 13:31:52 | [IDC]Dragon | hi jens |
| 13:32:01 | [IDC]Dragon | standby, I'm busy |
| 13:33:15 | amiconn | Anyway, here are the questions. No need to hurry though. |
| 13:34:03 | amiconn | (1) When not in usb mode, does the SCK1 output continuously output the clock (~1.5 MHz) or bursts? |
| 13:34:27 | amiconn | (2) I suspect that there is actually something connected to PA13. Could you check this? |
| 13:42:14 | | Quit ashridah ("Client exiting") |
| 14:00 |
| 14:03:02 | | Join ashridah [0] (ashridah@dialup-a1-180.Melbourne.netspace.net.au) |
| 14:10:40 | | Join R3nTiL [0] (~zorroz@197-250-30-217.kgts.ru) |
| 14:23:37 | | Join lImbus [0] (~manuel@kernel.cycos.net) |
| 14:31:07 | [IDC]Dragon | Jens: now is better |
| 14:31:38 | [IDC]Dragon | (1) The Archos firmware generates burst, longer than 1 byte |
| 14:32:24 | [IDC]Dragon | (2) I don't know about PA13, haven't found a connection yet. In which context is this used? |
| 14:33:20 | [IDC]Dragon | Bagder: I've pushed some OndioFM pictures in your upload area, since my email wasn't working this morning. |
| 14:34:09 | Bagder | thanks |
| 14:36:45 | [IDC]Dragon | conveniently made them the size used on your page |
| 14:36:52 | Bagder | I noticed |
| 14:36:58 | [IDC]Dragon | :) |
| 14:37:20 | [IDC]Dragon | except for the big one, of course |
| 14:37:22 | Bagder | I'll make use of them when we start providing daily builds |
| 14:37:35 | [IDC]Dragon | yes, no hurry |
| 14:38:14 | Bagder | there here now: http://rockbox.haxx.se/ondio/ |
| 14:38:18 | Bagder | they're |
| 14:38:43 | [IDC]Dragon | maybe rename them to OndioFM_xxx |
| 14:38:51 | [IDC]Dragon | I forgot to do so |
| 14:39:02 | [IDC]Dragon | or whatever the naming convention is |
| 14:39:05 | Bagder | that whole dir is only temporary |
| 14:39:19 | Bagder | I'll rename and fix when the time comes |
| 14:39:32 | | Join JoeBorn [0] (~41d6673c@labb.contactor.se) |
| 14:39:42 | [IDC]Dragon | oh, they seem to be progressive jpeg |
| 14:39:48 | [IDC]Dragon | did I do that? |
| 14:40:00 | Bagder | yes |
| 14:40:31 | [IDC]Dragon | sorry |
| 14:40:37 | Bagder | it doesn't matter |
| 14:44:23 | | Join webguest88 [0] (~da458715@labb.contactor.se) |
| 14:48:48 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 14:50:07 | [IDC]Dragon | amiconn: have to reboot, see you |
| 14:50:16 | [IDC]Dragon | (and see above) |
| 14:50:22 | | Part [IDC]Dragon |
| 14:51:13 | | Quit Bagder ("Leaving") |
| 14:51:57 | JoeBorn | hello everyone, does anyone mind talking about hardward generally for a bit? |
| 14:52:12 | Zagor | not a bit |
| 14:52:42 | JoeBorn | well, I guess as most of you probably know, we've made some mistakes in some of our choices along the way :( |
| 14:53:03 | webguest88 | is it possible that I use my JukeBox 20 with the Jukebox 5000-6000 software? |
| 14:53:12 | JoeBorn | in going forward, I'm just looking to make sure that we don't keep repeating those |
| 14:53:57 | Zagor | webguest88: yes |
| 14:54:21 | webguest88 | okay, thanks |
| 14:54:43 | Zagor | JoeBorn: we'd like that too :) |
| 14:55:15 | JoeBorn | I guess I'll start with a couple questions. It's obvious that the ARM cores have the Gcc tools and the benefit of good support generally |
| 14:55:24 | LinusN | yup |
| 14:55:26 | Zagor | (for those who don't know, JoeBorn is talking about the Neuros player) |
| 14:56:02 | JoeBorn | but it's also obvious that the DSP side is of great interest to developers and it seems that these have often been less open, |
| 14:56:19 | JoeBorn | what's your take on availability of tools for the DSPs? |
| 14:56:22 | Zagor | yes, that has been a problem |
| 14:56:40 | JoeBorn | what processor does the iRiver use? |
| 14:56:43 | Zagor | well gcc supports some dsps, not sure exactly which though |
| 14:56:46 | Zagor | coldfire 5249 |
| 14:57:05 | Zagor | with an EMAC, so not a full DSP but still enough for fast signal processing |
| 14:57:43 | JoeBorn | and those have complete support tool-wise? |
| 14:57:49 | LinusN | nope |
| 14:58:01 | LinusN | not that i know of |
| 14:58:13 | Zagor | the EMAC needs to be assembly-programmed, but being very restricted (just a few instructions) it's not a problem |
| 14:58:33 | JoeBorn | ahh! |
| 14:58:47 | Zagor | the coldfire core itself is quite well supported though, since it builds on the m68k core |
| 14:59:39 | JoeBorn | so have you guys researched processors much or you pretty much just looked at the handful of players out there and then looked at the processors for those? |
| 14:59:57 | Zagor | the latter |
| 15:00 |
| 15:00:14 | Zagor | although we work with stuff like this for a living, so we know a lot of different cpus |
| 15:00:20 | JoeBorn | have you looked at any of the TI products? |
| 15:00:27 | LinusN | we have of course worked on quite a few cpu's, but not in the scope of the rockbox project |
| 15:00:42 | LinusN | no, not ti |
| 15:00:51 | Zagor | yes, when I was looking at the archos multimedia players. TI is notorious about hiding documentation though so it quickly gets boring. |
| 15:01:37 | JoeBorn | TI is appealing for us, because we have so much code written for it already. |
| 15:02:03 | Zagor | I can understand that |
| 15:02:13 | JoeBorn | FM stereo algorithms, etc, etc. |
| 15:02:20 | Zagor | but their attitude to non-commercial development is rather hostile |
| 15:02:33 | LinusN | i'd stay away from the ti stuff |
| 15:02:36 | JoeBorn | so how much of an impediment is that "hostility"? |
| 15:02:48 | LinusN | the lack of docs is a real problem |
| 15:02:51 | Zagor | a rather big one. we simply cannot get docs. |
| 15:02:52 | JoeBorn | where does that hostility stem from? what form? |
| 15:03:14 | JoeBorn | oh, and the docs are all protected so we can't distribute them either, I assume? |
| 15:03:31 | Zagor | if I ask for docs, I get the response "how many chips are you planning to buy?" |
| 15:03:34 | Zagor | yes, generally |
| 15:03:50 | JoeBorn | funny you say that, we get that too. |
| 15:04:12 | Zagor | yeah, but you can answer :) |
| 15:04:25 | LinusN | that's the first signal that tells you to stay away |
| 15:04:27 | JoeBorn | what about the gcc project to port to TI |
| 15:04:37 | LinusN | don't hold your breath |
| 15:04:55 | Zagor | i've only seen the sourceforge project page, but no content |
| 15:04:55 | JoeBorn | you think it's just too difficult and big a project? |
| 15:05:14 | JoeBorn | right, it clearly needs a push. |
| 15:05:19 | LinusN | i think the TI secrecy will be a problem for that project as well |
| 15:06:03 | JoeBorn | have any silicon manufacturers been particuliarly supportive? |
| 15:06:06 | LinusN | as i see it, they don't deserve the gcc port |
| 15:06:13 | JoeBorn | or open? |
| 15:06:40 | Zagor | motorola is pretty open in that all their docs are available on their website |
| 15:06:49 | Zagor | that's all we ask |
| 15:06:55 | JoeBorn | sure. |
| 15:07:10 | LinusN | and one should also choose a common architecture |
| 15:07:13 | Zagor | i think others do that too, I just can't think of any names right now |
| 15:07:30 | JoeBorn | what do you mean "common architecture?" |
| 15:07:39 | LinusN | 68k, ppc, arm etc are very popular |
| 15:07:48 | JoeBorn | oh, right. |
| 15:07:53 | LinusN | so there are good tools for those |
| 15:08:21 | Zagor | yes. the more popular a platform is, the better the tools are |
| 15:09:04 | JoeBorn | so in a nutshell, on the DSP side, although there may not be an available compiler, you'd probably use assembly anyway. |
| 15:09:14 | LinusN | and if you want to benefit from opening the source, virtually everyone should be able to compile and link the firmware |
| 15:09:30 | Zagor | it depends. for the coldfire we use DSP since it's only a few instructions. |
| 15:09:46 | Zagor | but for a case like yours where the entire system runs on a DSP I'd want C |
| 15:09:53 | LinusN | s/dsp/assembler/ |
| 15:09:56 | | Quit midk (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 15:09:59 | JoeBorn | sure, that makes sense |
| 15:10:06 | Zagor | LinusN: right |
| 15:10:13 | | Join midk [0] (~midk@c66-235-14-120.sea2.cablespeed.com) |
| 15:11:06 | JoeBorn | but looking at some of your discussions, it seems clear that you were facing resource issues with the Archos and that's one of the big reasons for the move? |
| 15:11:47 | JoeBorn | obviously some of these issues would still be there with a processor like we're currently using, perhaps not quite as severe, but still there. |
| 15:11:58 | Zagor | well the archos is an old platform that is becoming obsolete. we wanted to follow the times and not stay lock in to a dying product. |
| 15:12:02 | LinusN | well, they don't manufacture the archor jukebox anymore |
| 15:12:15 | JoeBorn | right |
| 15:12:28 | ashridah | Zagor: you do realise they don't manufacture the 1xx series anymore either, iirc. |
| 15:12:30 | LinusN | and it's nice to have the codec in s/w |
| 15:12:41 | ashridah | (iriver H1xx series i mean) |
| 15:12:43 | Zagor | ashridah: really? interesting... |
| 15:12:49 | LinusN | ashridah: :-) |
| 15:12:53 | ashridah | Zagor: yeah, they're pretty much pushing the 3xx |
| 15:12:59 | LinusN | of course |
| 15:13:40 | Zagor | well the h100 isn't exactly hard to get yet anyway. the archos is. |
| 15:13:46 | ashridah | true |
| 15:14:09 | Zagor | but sure, we won't be able to stay with the h100 forever either |
| 15:14:42 | LinusN | and it shouldn't be *that* hard to port to the 300, afaics |
| 15:14:57 | * | ashridah nods |
| 15:14:57 | JoeBorn | 3xx uses the same 5249? |
| 15:14:59 | Zagor | if joe makes a good platform we can use, at least we'd know when it stopped being manufactured ;) |
| 15:15:27 | Zagor | JoeBorn: as far as I know, yes |
| 15:15:28 | LinusN | i believe the cpu is the same, yes |
| 15:16:02 | JoeBorn | so what about the rest of the hardware. I'm absolutely amazed that you guys can do so much without support from teh mfg. |
| 15:16:19 | LinusN | lots of experience |
| 15:16:23 | JoeBorn | you might have specs on the CPLD, but no information on the code, etc |
| 15:16:36 | JoeBorn | how much of an impediment is that? |
| 15:16:39 | Zagor | well one thing we've found useful is the separate usb/ata bridge. it means we don't have to write and debug a complex usb-storage driver. |
| 15:16:52 | LinusN | well, all hardware must have public data sheets |
| 15:16:56 | Zagor | it also means the disk always works, even if we fubar the firmware |
| 15:16:58 | JoeBorn | right. |
| 15:16:58 | | Quit webguest88 ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") |
| 15:17:02 | Zagor | (nearly always... ;) |
| 15:17:58 | Zagor | make sure you line up the MSBs and LSBs on your serial connections... :) (internal joke, archos players needs a lot of byte swapping) |
| 15:18:40 | Zagor | parallell connection to the display, preferrably, for fast access |
| 15:19:10 | JoeBorn | I'm not really a hardware engineer, I just play one on TV, inside Hw jokes will surely go over my head :( |
| 15:19:43 | Zagor | brb |
| 15:19:47 | JoeBorn | fast access for video? animation? |
| 15:20:21 | LinusN | well, a fast lcd connection leaves more power for the codec |
| 15:20:33 | JoeBorn | oh! I get it |
| 15:20:36 | LinusN | same goes for all peripherals |
| 15:21:13 | LinusN | connecting the hard drive correctly, so you can use the internal DMA in the cpu (if any) |
| 15:21:21 | LinusN | etc |
| 15:22:09 | JoeBorn | no those are good tips. |
| 15:22:31 | LinusN | there are so many small details that can make a huge difference |
| 15:22:40 | JoeBorn | so, it's clear that you guys have been able to figure out most everything without manufacturer support, so besides just designing good HW, what else do you need from us? |
| 15:23:01 | JoeBorn | (us meaning the manufacturer generally) |
| 15:23:27 | LinusN | a dialog, and hardware to develop on |
| 15:23:31 | | Join AciD [0] (~acid@longchamp44-1-82-67-133-87.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 15:24:10 | JoeBorn | what about hardware tools, emulators and such? |
| 15:24:39 | LinusN | if you choose your platform wisely, you may not need emulators |
| 15:25:06 | LinusN | only a cheap BDM/JTAG wiggler |
| 15:25:57 | LinusN | and the gnu debugger |
| 15:26:53 | JoeBorn | what platforms support that? |
| 15:27:24 | LinusN | at least arm and coldfire |
| 15:27:27 | JoeBorn | what about the mp3 codec? Do you have a source for that? |
| 15:27:28 | LinusN | ppc |
| 15:27:44 | LinusN | libmad is gpl |
| 15:27:59 | LinusN | we will probably use it for the iriver |
| 15:28:14 | | Join Lynx [0] (lynx@134.95.189.59) |
| 15:28:33 | LinusN | i don't know much about free realtime encoders though |
| 15:28:56 | LinusN | we will probably have to do some "inhouse" developing for that |
| 15:29:08 | JoeBorn | it seems like writing one is quiet an effort. |
| 15:29:13 | Zagor | not the entire codec, just optimising an existing |
| 15:29:56 | JoeBorn | when we asked monty about writing an Ogg encoder for our machine, he said he heard it took TI 3 man years to write their mp3 encoder |
| 15:30:13 | Zagor | i can imagine |
| 15:30:47 | Zagor | btw can I ask if the ogg codec he wrote for you is (or will be) released? |
| 15:30:59 | JoeBorn | yes. |
| 15:31:05 | Zagor | nice |
| 15:31:26 | JoeBorn | I just haven't looked the contract, but I'm 99% sure from my recollection that it's fine. |
| 15:31:36 | Zagor | ok |
| 15:31:45 | JoeBorn | xiph wrote our codec for us. |
| 15:32:07 | Zagor | i guessed that :) |
| 15:32:31 | JoeBorn | but I'm 99% sure its actually just a BSD license and there's no problem. |
| 15:33:04 | Zagor | yeah but it depends on the terms of the contract, as you say. with bsd you can choose to make the result proprietary. |
| 15:33:26 | JoeBorn | so Zagor, what do you think you need from the manufacturer? |
| 15:33:41 | JoeBorn | what are the impediments that you see? |
| 15:33:43 | LinusN | loadza cash! |
| 15:34:04 | Zagor | docs, mostly. and as linus said, a dialog with someone we can ask about stuff we can't figure out |
| 15:34:11 | | Join R3nTiL1 [0] (~zorroz@185-248-30-217.kgts.ru) |
| 15:34:16 | Zagor | some development hardware, of course |
| 15:34:17 | JoeBorn | well, you know we are a for profit company (at least trying to be) |
| 15:34:52 | LinusN | when i said "dialog", i also meant regarding the hardware design |
| 15:35:00 | JoeBorn | but honestly supporting open source with some hardware is obviously a lot cheaper than hiring internal developers |
| 15:35:43 | JoeBorn | well, this is that start of that dialog. |
| 15:36:09 | Zagor | I just need to raise a warning flag here: you cannot depend 100% on us writing the firmware for you for free. we may not do it in the speed you want it, or with the features you'd like. |
| 15:36:25 | JoeBorn | what about installed base? I know that's an issue for you guys, and would be a disadvantage of anything we do, at least for the time being |
| 15:36:46 | LinusN | relying on programmers that do it for free on their spare time isn't all that good |
| 15:37:15 | JoeBorn | of course, what I'm imagining is doing our development with internal developers in an open environment |
| 15:37:38 | Zagor | JoeBorn: ok, good. just wanted to avoid any misunderstandings |
| 15:37:39 | JoeBorn | with support from outsiders as a bonus |
| 15:37:46 | LinusN | sounds good |
| 15:38:12 | JoeBorn | we've seen that in our own experience those issues. |
| 15:38:22 | LinusN | basically, make the hardware like we want it, and we port rockbox to it -) |
| 15:38:24 | JoeBorn | it's impossible to control. |
| 15:38:38 | Zagor | installed base is obviously an issue, since we as a project are always looking for contributors and testers. if only a dozen people have the hardware it's not going to be as much fun. |
| 15:39:15 | LinusN | on the other hand, if the hw is sexy, and the publicity is right, it could very well be a hit |
| 15:39:21 | Zagor | absolutely |
| 15:39:26 | JoeBorn | well, it won't be a dozen people (or we've got some other big issues) |
| 15:39:54 | JoeBorn | yes, I think it could be a big hit and it's obvious that the things you want are the same things that other folks want too. |
| 15:40:09 | JoeBorn | but it's going to be a new product from a small brand |
| 15:40:11 | LinusN | not the ipod herd... |
| 15:40:26 | Zagor | i think the xclef model of having both an 1.8" and a 2.5" player with similar hardware is a good idea to consider. |
| 15:40:55 | Zagor | one small&sexy for the pocket and one which can fit huge 100gig drives, for the car or bag |
| 15:40:58 | | Join Bagder [0] (~daniel@1-1-5-26a.hud.sth.bostream.se) |
| 15:41:00 | JoeBorn | just so you can have an 80GB if you want? |
| 15:41:03 | | Quit R3nTiL (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 15:41:05 | Zagor | exactly |
| 15:41:33 | JoeBorn | what about wireless? does anyone care? |
| 15:41:42 | LinusN | i dont |
| 15:41:59 | JoeBorn | I'm referring to WiFi etc, not FM broadcasting |
| 15:42:03 | LinusN | i know |
| 15:42:22 | JoeBorn | anyone else have an opinion on that? |
| 15:42:25 | Zagor | i don't think it's worth it having it built-in. those things are easy to add with external hardware. |
| 15:42:53 | LinusN | btw, S/PDIF is a must imho |
| 15:42:55 | Zagor | but I'm not pretending to "know the market" |
| 15:43:02 | JoeBorn | now that's a very interesting point, what's the interface for external hardware? |
| 15:43:25 | LinusN | actually, an ethernet connection might be c00l |
| 15:43:57 | JoeBorn | CF is big |
| 15:43:58 | LinusN | but i think usb2.0 is good enough |
| 15:44:01 | Zagor | rio karma apparently has it |
| 15:44:15 | Zagor | CF is a good interface |
| 15:44:23 | | Quit Lynx_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 15:44:24 | | Nick Lynx is now known as Lynx_ (lynx@134.95.189.59) |
| 15:44:31 | JoeBorn | but it adds considerable size |
| 15:44:44 | LinusN | compared to what? |
| 15:44:44 | Zagor | yes. i'm not sure the tradeoff is worth it. |
| 15:45:44 | LinusN | the 2.5" version could have more "advanced" connectivity features, while the 1.8" version could have only USB |
| 15:46:00 | Zagor | LinusN: sounds good |
| 15:46:23 | Zagor | bluetooth! |
| 15:46:25 | * | Zagor ducks |
| 15:46:26 | | Quit MrMoo (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 15:46:32 | * | Bagder swings for Zagor |
| 15:46:34 | LinusN | the 2.5" version would be more like a portable music collection, much like i use my archos today |
| 15:46:49 | JoeBorn | I take it you've already had the wireless conversation many times? |
| 15:46:58 | LinusN | not really |
| 15:47:24 | JoeBorn | oh it sounded like an inside joke |
| 15:47:35 | LinusN | rockbox is not that much about developing hardware, we have to settle with what the player has |
| 15:47:41 | Zagor | well bluetooth *is* an inside joke, isn't it? ;) |
| 15:47:45 | LinusN | haha |
| 15:48:07 | JoeBorn | I'm sorry to dominate the discussion, but one final question about licensing |
| 15:48:20 | Zagor | don't worry, this is a very interesting discussion |
| 15:48:30 | JoeBorn | good, thanks. |
| 15:48:47 | LinusN | we'll kick you out when we find something else to talk about :-) |
| 15:49:07 | JoeBorn | you've never been shy |
| 15:49:09 | | Join MrMoo [0] (~me@194.152.87.150) |
| 15:49:36 | JoeBorn | so let's say we do what we're talking about and release a piece of hardware and do the development in an open environment |
| 15:50:10 | JoeBorn | sourceforge or hosted internally, but with open version control, bugzilla, etc. |
| 15:50:47 | JoeBorn | one part of our business model would be to ultimately license or OEM to other manufacturers |
| 15:51:03 | JoeBorn | I know this is a pretty sensitive subject, but I have to bring it up. |
| 15:51:16 | JoeBorn | so there are a couple ways for us to deal with this. |
| 15:51:51 | JoeBorn | we can fork the code into a version where we're the copyright holder or we can do a dual license, etc. |
| 15:52:07 | JoeBorn | any particular thoughts on this? Does it make sense what I'm asking? |
| 15:52:33 | LinusN | i see two issues, one about copyright and one about money |
| 15:52:39 | | Quit R3nTiL1 () |
| 15:53:25 | JoeBorn | I'd say that's right. |
| 15:54:21 | Zagor | the question is how would you prevent other manufacturers from using the code unlicensed? |
| 15:54:22 | JoeBorn | if money were no issue, then we could just release the code under BSD and contributors could contribute under that license |
| 15:54:40 | JoeBorn | but then why would anyone pay us? |
| 15:55:15 | LinusN | i also see an issue with fellow developers contributing to the project |
| 15:55:16 | JoeBorn | and essentially we'll be paying developers to develop code for all manufacturers to use for free. |
| 15:55:39 | JoeBorn | and of course the same issue you've faced. |
| 15:55:44 | LinusN | basically, "why should i contribute, what's in it for me?" |
| 15:55:50 | | Join [IDC]Dragon [0] (~d90a3255@labb.contactor.se) |
| 15:56:12 | JoeBorn | right, that's a great question. |
| 15:56:15 | [IDC]Dragon | Hi again! (took a bit more than a reboot) |
| 15:56:41 | Zagor | JoeBorn: there is an ethical dilemma in selling contributed code |
| 15:56:51 | JoeBorn | yes. |
| 15:57:04 | JoeBorn | so what's the solution? |
| 15:57:38 | Zagor | I'm afraid I don't see one. Open Source and exclusive licensing doesn't mix well. |
| 15:57:55 | Bagder | I don't think there's any shortcut. The source need to be "free enough" to attract hackers to it. |
| 15:58:20 | LinusN | and then anyone can clone the hardware and run the code on it |
| 15:58:23 | JoeBorn | well, that solution means forking the code into a plain old GPL |
| 15:58:39 | Bagder | yes, if someone makes a clone of the hw, they get code for free |
| 15:58:47 | Zagor | would licensing only the hardware design not be enough, you think? |
| 15:58:59 | JoeBorn | I don't have any issue with anyone cloneing the hardware and running the code on it. |
| 15:59:26 | JoeBorn | remember they'd have to adhere to the GPL themselves. not many manufacturers would be willing to do that. |
| 15:59:36 | Zagor | excellent point |
| 15:59:37 | LinusN | true |
| 16:00 |
| 16:00:00 | Bagder | and if they'd do, they'd cooperate on improving the code |
| 16:00:10 | Zagor | everybody wins |
| 16:00:37 | LinusN | except the company who has the most manufacturing costs, losing sales |
| 16:00:38 | JoeBorn | eventually there will be a lot of hardware companies that will do that, but it will take time |
| 16:00:55 | Zagor | LinusN: why? |
| 16:01:05 | Zagor | oh, ok i get it |
| 16:01:27 | Zagor | however cost is only one variable. marketing is a powerful thing. |
| 16:01:29 | Bagder | ... and there's money to be made by the people who know the sw to write adaptions for new hw |
| 16:01:50 | LinusN | ...and who might that be? :-) |
| 16:02:24 | JoeBorn | Zagor: licensing HW might be enough, it depends how clever and unique or even *gasp* proprietary it is |
| 16:02:59 | Zagor | JoeBorn: yeah and we (rockbox) of course don't want it to be proprietary at all... |
| 16:03:11 | JoeBorn | I know |
| 16:03:35 | Zagor | however do you see any problem with using the GPL, thus avoiding the "free clones" problem? |
| 16:04:03 | JoeBorn | but if it's completely a commodity, just a version based off the reference design then obviously it's not going to be worth much. |
| 16:04:31 | JoeBorn | if you have a clever patentented wheel, etc. with a cool design, then maybe |
| 16:05:06 | Zagor | yes, design is very important. two devices with identical schematics can differ substantially in attractiveness. |
| 16:05:09 | JoeBorn | I don't see a problem with the GPM and free clones problem |
| 16:05:23 | JoeBorn | GPL I mean, |
| 16:05:59 | JoeBorn | what I beleive will happen eventually is that the asian manufacturers will eventually realize the "free clones" opportunity and start making them. |
| 16:06:16 | LinusN | yup |
| 16:06:18 | | Join Nibbler [0] (~andrer@port-212-202-73-41.dynamic.qsc.de) |
| 16:06:36 | JoeBorn | although, it's an interesting question because will a "free clone" really work perfectly? |
| 16:07:01 | JoeBorn | I mean the schematics are copyrighted themselves so you can't just copy them. |
| 16:07:25 | JoeBorn | so how do you get them perfect when all the debugging has been done on the original device? |
| 16:07:31 | Zagor | even "clones" would most likely have small differences tthat need code changes |
| 16:07:47 | Bagder | like PCs running linux |
| 16:07:53 | JoeBorn | Right, and that's an impdediment. |
| 16:08:01 | JoeBorn | exactly. |
| 16:08:03 | Zagor | not if the code is GPL |
| 16:08:32 | JoeBorn | well, it's still an impediment because you can't just drop the existing code into the device. |
| 16:08:51 | LinusN | you would at least change the startup logo :-) |
| 16:09:17 | JoeBorn | in our example, the manufacturer, whose english is not that good would have to contact you to have changes incorporated |
| 16:09:18 | Zagor | right, but the manufacturer would probably spend a month or however much it takes to adapt the software. rather than commission a complete 5 man-year rewrite . |
| 16:09:33 | Zagor | ...or you |
| 16:10:01 | JoeBorn | sure, but now they fork the code and when the official rockbox releases a cool new feature, they don't have it. |
| 16:10:20 | Zagor | if they want rockbox to work, they will submit their changes to us |
| 16:10:27 | JoeBorn | as a user, now my clone just bit me, and I'd sure rather have "the real thing" |
| 16:10:46 | Zagor | ...and thus they buy "the original", the neuros |
| 16:11:20 | JoeBorn | right, wouldn't you? |
| 16:11:23 | LinusN | yes, so neuros can be proactive and contribute a lot |
| 16:11:38 | Zagor | i probably would |
| 16:11:47 | JoeBorn | exactly. that's why I'm not worried about the free clone issue. |
| 16:11:56 | LinusN | good thought |
| 16:12:20 | JoeBorn | the issue is that we'd like to preserve the ability to license to someone else. |
| 16:12:42 | JoeBorn | I wouldn't say it's a must have, but it would sure be nice. |
| 16:13:11 | Bagder | you mean selling the code without GPL stamped on it? |
| 16:13:19 | JoeBorn | right. |
| 16:13:23 | Zagor | Perhaps, but I think it would be a hard sell to contributors. |
| 16:13:46 | Bagder | it would require a TrollTech/MySQL setup |
| 16:13:58 | JoeBorn | I think if you say it would be a hard sell to contributors, then we can be pretty confident it's true:) |
| 16:14:03 | LinusN | a norwegian web site picked up on the latest slashdot news about rockbox being ported to iriver, saying thet rockbox coule "very well be the linux of media players" |
| 16:14:14 | Zagor | LinusN: link? |
| 16:14:16 | JoeBorn | Badger: that's exactly right |
| 16:14:19 | LinusN | hang on |
| 16:14:38 | Bagder | JoeBorn: it would "only" require that you are the copyright owner of all the code... |
| 16:14:55 | Zagor | yes, but I know a lot of people who won't contribute to qt for precisely that reason |
| 16:15:03 | Bagder | or have an agreement with the copyright holders |
| 16:16:18 | Zagor | I would suggest to drop the dual-licensing. I'd say the risk (of alienating contributors) is greater than the chance (of licensing the code for profit). |
| 16:16:30 | ripnetUK | how the pan-european wiggler journey going ;-) |
| 16:16:37 | LinusN | my mistake, it wasn't the norwegian web mag, it was a blog: |
| 16:16:41 | JoeBorn | have you guys considered making an "official organization" out of rockbox? |
| 16:16:41 | LinusN | http://dev.null.org/blog/archive.cgi/2004/07/13 |
| 16:17:05 | Zagor | JoeBorn: no :) |
| 16:17:44 | LinusN | ripnetUK: holy moses, it's in Stockholm!!! |
| 16:17:51 | Zagor | yay |
| 16:17:52 | JoeBorn | that's one possible solution |
| 16:18:00 | Zagor | JoeBorn: how do you mean? |
| 16:18:18 | LinusN | status: "On FedEx vehicle for delivery" |
| 16:18:26 | LinusN | and i'm not at home :-( |
| 16:18:33 | Zagor | LinusN: call them |
| 16:18:34 | JoeBorn | well then the organization can own the code |
| 16:18:47 | ripnetUK | :) wiggler hits home :) |
| 16:19:41 | LinusN | my wife has received the package! :-) |
| 16:19:46 | JoeBorn | "I wonder how long until companies stop making (and maintaining) their own firmware and start building players around Rockbox" :) |
| 16:20:00 | Zagor | JoeBorn: sure, but it's not a legal problem. it's an ethic/trust/goodwill issue |
| 16:20:15 | ripnetUK | nice... uk couriers have a habbit of sending deliveries to a depot MILES away |
| 16:20:22 | Zagor | making rockbox a formal organisation won't help with that |
| 16:20:45 | Zagor | LinusN: excellent! |
| 16:21:06 | LinusN | Zagor: that means i won't get any sleep this night either :-) |
| 16:21:22 | JoeBorn | well, it relies on teh continued trust and ethics and goodwill of Rockbox |
| 16:21:38 | JoeBorn | it would just provide a mechanism for you to officially hold resources. |
| 16:21:53 | LinusN | i have to go now |
| 16:21:57 | Zagor | LinusN: go go go! |
| 16:22:10 | LinusN | JoeBorn: nice talking to you, keep in touch |
| 16:22:14 | LinusN | cu all! |
| 16:22:19 | Zagor | JoeBorn: ok I see what you mean |
| 16:22:21 | JoeBorn | nice talking to you |
| 16:22:24 | | Part LinusN |
| 16:22:26 | | Join kurzhaarrocker [0] (~knoppix@p50877CBC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 16:22:45 | JoeBorn | It might be a horrible idea for all I know, I was just curious. |
| 16:22:46 | Zagor | we don't have anything against formalizing rockbox, there just hasn't been any reason to |
| 16:22:59 | Zagor | and we hate paperwork :) |
| 16:23:19 | JoeBorn | I understand that. |
| 16:23:57 | kurzhaarrocker | (completely ot) Zagor: I want to request a web page with a form and parse it. Is curl the way to go? |
| 16:24:19 | JoeBorn | I need to run myself, thanks for your time everyone. |
| 16:24:21 | Zagor | curl can do anything :) |
| 16:24:38 | kurzhaarrocker | Ok, Ill try to make it make coffee. |
| 16:24:45 | Zagor | JoeBorn: ok, thanks for the discussion |
| 16:26:33 | dwihno_ | Yay for the wiggler! |
| 16:26:35 | | Nick dwihno_ is now known as dwihno (~dw@81.8.224.89) |
| 16:27:18 | ripnetUK | lets hope it wiggles ok with the iRiver |
| 16:36:13 | Zagor | brace for commit |
| 16:37:41 | kurzhaarrocker | ) |
| 16:39:41 | | Quit ashridah ("crash") |
| 16:40:13 | * | dwihno bucles his safety belt |
| 16:40:19 | * | dwihno braces for impact |
| 16:40:22 | dwihno | IIIIIIIIHHHH! |
| 16:40:55 | * | kurzhaarrocker tries to curl up :) |
| 16:41:33 | Zagor | now you can all build iriver simulators and play with :) |
| 16:42:32 | | Join methangas [0] (methangas@0x50c61c48.virnxx10.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk) |
| 16:42:49 | Bagder | finally! :-P |
| 16:43:32 | Bagder | want that in the build table? |
| 16:43:59 | kurzhaarrocker | I wonder when the ideas about supporting other platforms than the recorder/player became serious. |
| 16:44:32 | Bagder | kurzhaarrocker: when they discovered enough details on the iRiver |
| 16:44:43 | | Quit Nibbler (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 16:45:11 | Zagor | actually the *idea* came earlier than that |
| 16:45:20 | Bagder | true |
| 16:45:27 | kurzhaarrocker | Bagder soon a table won't be sufficiant any more, prepare to build a build cube :) |
| 16:45:39 | Bagder | hehe |
| 16:46:05 | kurzhaarrocker | Yes but usually the idea was considered as a topic of the nodo. |
| 16:46:29 | | Quit JoeBorn ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") |
| 16:47:50 | kurzhaarrocker | :( my web hoster doesn't support curl. |
| 16:48:22 | Bagder | build it yourself |
| 16:48:52 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 16:49:11 | | Join Nibbler [0] (~andrer@port-212-202-78-96.dynamic.qsc.de) |
| 16:51:07 | kurzhaarrocker | I'm not sure but I believe that if php says it was configured with "−−without-curl" I'm in a dead end - no matter how many curl libs I build... |
| 16:51:35 | Bagder | right, but you can use the command line tool |
| 16:51:36 | Zagor | yes, if you must use it inside php. but you can always use the command-line program |
| 16:52:13 | * | kurzhaarrocker considers that |
| 16:53:08 | Bagder | it might have the tool installed |
| 16:58:02 | | Join midk_ [0] (~midk@c66-235-14-120.sea2.cablespeed.com) |
| 16:58:12 | * | [IDC]Dragon missed the interesting-looking discussion with Joe |
| 16:58:30 | [IDC]Dragon | (and had not enough time yet to read it) |
| 16:59:01 | | Join mecraw_ [0] (~lmarlow@69.2.235.2) |
| 17:00 |
| 17:07:42 | [IDC]Dragon | amiconn: do you read? |
| 17:07:50 | Zagor | yeah it was a nice chat |
| 17:08:07 | [IDC]Dragon | how do you know that guy? |
| 17:08:28 | [IDC]Dragon | he's from Neuros s/w development? |
| 17:08:31 | Zagor | we've mailed a bit about their open source effort |
| 17:08:36 | Zagor | he's their ceo |
| 17:08:42 | [IDC]Dragon | oh |
| 17:09:45 | Zagor | sorry, "only" chairman and cto |
| 17:09:51 | [IDC]Dragon | well |
| 17:10:15 | [IDC]Dragon | poen source witout open development tools :( |
| 17:10:19 | [IDC]Dragon | open |
| 17:10:47 | Zagor | yeah. that's why he was here talking to us today, to avoid doing such a mistake next time |
| 17:11:01 | [IDC]Dragon | mistake? ;-) |
| 17:11:46 | Zagor | well what else would you call it? if they wanted it proprietary, they wouldn't have opened the source would they? |
| 17:13:10 | [IDC]Dragon | no, I mean because it has that accidental touch, ironically |
| 17:13:36 | [IDC]Dragon | by mistake practically nobody can build it, sorry |
| 17:14:25 | | Quit midk (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 17:18:30 | [IDC]Dragon | "Added Iriver H100 to tools/configure", hehe |
| 17:18:55 | Zagor | yeah, so we can build the h100 simulator |
| 17:20:41 | [IDC]Dragon | apart from that, it's early and optimistic :-) |
| 17:21:27 | Zagor | yup :) |
| 17:28:19 | ripnetUK | just built the UI sim for iRiver - looking kinda cool |
| 17:28:33 | ripnetUK | although still green :) |
| 17:28:42 | Zagor | :) |
| 17:31:28 | Zagor | gotta go |
| 17:31:30 | | Part Zagor |
| 17:36:18 | | Quit AciD ("how much wood would a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood ?") |
| 17:40:41 | | Quit [IDC]Dragon ("CGI:IRC") |
| 17:48:10 | | Part kurzhaarrocker |
| 17:55:43 | | Quit Bagder ("Leaving") |
| 17:58:41 | ripnetUK | −−- uisimulator/x11/uibasic.c 20 Jan 2003 09:39:37 -0000 1.13 |
| 17:58:41 | ripnetUK | +++ uisimulator/x11/uibasic.c 16 Sep 2004 15:58:16 -0000 |
| 17:58:41 | ripnetUK | @@ -61,7 +61,7 @@ |
| 17:58:41 | DBUG | Enqueued KICK ripnetUK |
| 17:58:41 | ripnetUK | char *progclass = "rockboxui"; |
| 17:58:41 | ripnetUK | char *defaults [] = { |
| 17:58:41 | *** | Alert Mode level 1 |
| 17:58:41 | ripnetUK | - ".background: lightgreen", |
| 17:58:43 | ripnetUK | + ".background: lightblue", |
| 17:58:45 | ripnetUK | ".foreground: black", |
| 17:58:47 | ripnetUK | "*help: false", |
| 17:58:49 | ripnetUK | 0 |
| 17:58:51 | ripnetUK | :) |
| 17:58:53 | ripnetUK | much more iRiver |
| 18:00 |
| 18:08:24 | | Join LinusN [0] (~linus@labb.contactor.se) |
| 18:08:42 | *** | Alert Mode OFF |
| 18:09:41 | | Join AciD [0] (~acid@longchamp44-1-82-67-133-87.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 18:11:35 | | Part LinusN |
| 18:22:51 | | Join _aLF [0] (~alex@mutualite-3-82-67-66-128.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 18:22:54 | _aLF | hi |
| 18:37:22 | | Join webguest07 [0] (~d4b93602@labb.contactor.se) |
| 18:38:05 | | Quit webguest07 (Client Quit) |
| 18:48:56 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 19:00 |
| 19:03:41 | | Quit AciD (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 19:06:55 | | Quit Lynx_ (" WOW! This IRC Client ownz! HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-") |
| 19:11:45 | | Join AciD [0] (~acid@longchamp44-1-82-67-133-87.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 19:14:50 | | Join srn [0] (~82e13707@labb.contactor.se) |
| 19:16:49 | srn | i just added some pages to the iriver wiki. unfortunately, i positioned a page at the wrong level. IriverPort > IriverBDM > IriverMemoryMap −− should have been −−> IriverPort > IriverMemoryMap. can any one fix this? |
| 19:17:16 | | Join [IDC]Dragon [0] (~idc-drago@pD9E34188.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:17:46 | [IDC]Dragon | amiconn? |
| 19:18:03 | amiconn | hi. Now I'm around |
| 19:18:09 | [IDC]Dragon | :) |
| 19:18:20 | [IDC]Dragon | seen my "answers"? |
| 19:18:21 | amiconn | (Sometimes I even have to work at work ;) ) |
| 19:18:31 | [IDC]Dragon | that sucks :( |
| 19:22:12 | amiconn | Yes, found your answers |
| 19:22:39 | [IDC]Dragon | they seem to "burst" a sector or so |
| 19:23:11 | [IDC]Dragon | I didn't measure it, but could do so for an estimate, if that helps |
| 19:23:16 | amiconn | On PA13: It is used both in the serial transmit and receive, switched between GPIO and IRQ1 |
| 19:23:45 | [IDC]Dragon | with serial you mean SPI for MMC? |
| 19:23:52 | amiconn | yup |
| 19:24:10 | [IDC]Dragon | I will go hunting for that signal |
| 19:28:08 | | Join R3nTiL [0] (~zorroz@249-248-30-217.kgts.ru) |
| 19:30:47 | amiconn | [IDC]Dragon: before transmit/ receive: PACR1 &= 0xF3FF (PA13->GPIO). After transmit/receive: PACR1 |= 0x0400 (PA13->IRQ1) |
| 19:31:03 | dwihno | are you fiddling with the ondio? |
| 19:31:08 | amiconn | yup |
| 19:31:51 | dwihno | Are you trying MMC communication with the on-board chip? |
| 19:33:25 | amiconn | Not for real yet. |
| 19:34:10 | amiconn | Currently looking into various data sheets and at the disassembled archos fw to get a clue how this is supposed to work |
| 19:35:14 | | Join webguest08 [0] (~d5dff649@labb.contactor.se) |
| 19:36:17 | | Quit webguest08 (Client Quit) |
| 19:36:43 | amiconn | The SH1 hardware manual is not very precise about the serial communication. E.g. with synchronous mode, what could cause a receive overrun error? Iiuc, synchronous mode does only output the clock signal if it is ready to receive, so in theory overrun shouldn't be possible. |
| 19:37:15 | [IDC]Dragon | with exteral clock, I think |
| 19:39:49 | amiconn | I already have a serial init, and will try to check if enabling serial causes continuous clock output. It's a bit difficult for me though (neither a LA nor a digital scope, only a simple analog scope) |
| 19:40:10 | [IDC]Dragon | analog is fine |
| 19:40:16 | [IDC]Dragon | I do most with it |
| 19:40:39 | amiconn | A logic analyzer could actually prove valuable here |
| 19:41:37 | [IDC]Dragon | c'mon, you only want to check for your piulses, nothing complx |
| 19:41:59 | [IDC]Dragon | ...pulses, nothing complex |
| 19:42:19 | amiconn | Not for this very job, but for capturing e.g. a data transfer burst |
| 19:42:59 | [IDC]Dragon | I can do that, if necessary |
| 19:43:10 | [IDC]Dragon | (but mostly, it isn't) |
| 19:43:35 | [IDC]Dragon | the SCI itself should not need debugging |
| 19:44:34 | amiconn | Yes, like the recording data transfer. Still no luck :( |
| 19:44:47 | [IDC]Dragon | we got out LCD working, too, where every transition is done "by hand" |
| 19:45:34 | amiconn | Yes. In fact I think that's easier than dealing with the SH1 SCI |
| 19:45:56 | amiconn | It may even prove to be faster |
| 19:46:03 | [IDC]Dragon | for a first shot, you could do so as well |
| 19:46:31 | [IDC]Dragon | no, it won't be faster, methinks |
| 19:47:11 | [IDC]Dragon | with the LCD, we got an overall ~900kBit/s |
| 19:47:18 | amiconn | The highest serial speed we can set for continuous transfer is 1.5 MBit/s, which equals 8 cpu cycles per bit. |
| 19:47:29 | [IDC]Dragon | 112*64*130 fps |
| 19:47:50 | [IDC]Dragon | and the carry trick won't work here |
| 19:48:05 | [IDC]Dragon | for bad data bit position |
| 19:48:18 | [IDC]Dragon | (I already checked this mentally) |
| 19:49:37 | amiconn | Ah ok. I didn't take into account that each data access to the ports needs 2 wait states |
| 19:50:25 | amiconn | Where do I have to measure the clo |
| 19:50:57 | amiconn | ck? |
| 19:51:01 | amiconn | Is it possible at the 74AC08? |
| 19:51:01 | [IDC]Dragon | yes |
| 19:51:17 | amiconn | So it's not that difficult |
| 19:51:43 | [IDC]Dragon | see twiki table |
| 19:52:16 | [IDC]Dragon | btw, did you see my new photo of the "naked" board? |
| 19:52:47 | amiconn | yup |
| 19:53:00 | | Quit R3nTiL () |
| 19:56:24 | | Quit maikeul (Remote closed the connection) |
| 20:00 |
| 20:01:29 | amiconn | [IDC]Dragon: I have seen the bursts of the original fw on my scope now. |
| 20:02:13 | amiconn | The bridge clock is too high for my scope though |
| 20:02:48 | [IDC]Dragon | I found PC6 instead |
| 20:02:58 | [IDC]Dragon | more later, cu |
| 20:03:03 | [IDC]Dragon | (away) |
| 20:03:11 | | Quit [IDC]Dragon () |
| 20:04:53 | | Join gromit`` [0] (~gromit@ALagny-151-1-27-251.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 20:49:00 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 20:50:17 | | Quit Nibbler (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) |
| 20:56:24 | | Join RyanA [0] (~RyanA_191@pool-68-160-0-36.bos.east.verizon.net) |
| 20:56:49 | RyanA | does anyone know where to get a replacement AC adapter cord real cheap? |
| 20:58:39 | | Quit RyanA (Client Quit) |
| 21:00 |
| 21:30:35 | | Join mecraw__ [0] (~lmarlow@69.2.235.2) |
| 21:41:03 | | Quit srn ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") |
| 21:48:32 | | Quit mecraw_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 21:56:48 | | Join [IDC]Dragon [0] (~idc-drago@pD9512E52.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 21:57:13 | [IDC]Dragon | hi again |
| 21:57:23 | [IDC]Dragon | amiconn: I found PA13 |
| 21:57:25 | amiconn | hi |
| 21:57:33 | amiconn | What is it? |
| 21:57:36 | [IDC]Dragon | it disappears under the flash |
| 21:57:44 | amiconn | Huh? |
| 21:57:50 | [IDC]Dragon | and goes to a test pad |
| 21:58:09 | [IDC]Dragon | the flash is BGA, I can't beep that |
| 21:58:16 | amiconn | I know. |
| 22:00 |
| 22:00:49 | | Join Zagor [0] (foobar@h254n2fls31o265.telia.com) |
| 22:01:56 | amiconn | [IDC]Dragon: Maybe it is connected to the RDY/BSY interrupt signal |
| 22:02:32 | amiconn | PA13 is always input |
| 22:02:56 | amiconn | We won't need that for now |
| 22:03:10 | Zagor | ripnetUK: committed |
| 22:03:15 | amiconn | [IDC]Dragon: What about PC6? |
| 22:03:42 | amiconn | Ah, found it. |
| 22:03:58 | amiconn | Needed to reload the wiki page :) |
| 22:04:22 | [IDC]Dragon | didn't you say it switches direction? |
| 22:04:59 | amiconn | No, it switches function: GP in <> IRQ1 |
| 22:05:39 | [IDC]Dragon | ah, never mind. |
| 22:06:25 | amiconn | I tried to output some clocks (writing 0xFF == dummies). No luck yet :( |
| 22:06:35 | [IDC]Dragon | maybe it's the ready/busy signal |
| 22:09:08 | | Join scott666_ [0] (~scott666@c-24-245-58-48.mn.client2.attbi.com) |
| 22:14:57 | [IDC]Dragon | that's the only thing which makes sense |
| 22:16:32 | | Join Bagder [0] (~daniel@1-1-5-26a.hud.sth.bostream.se) |
| 22:27:21 | amiconn | I don't seem to get that dreaded SCI setup right. Both transmit and receive don't output any clocks; transmit ends much faster than it should, receive hangs :(( |
| 22:28:10 | [IDC]Dragon | have you set the pin functions correct? |
| 22:28:20 | amiconn | Yup (at least I think so) |
| 22:28:56 | [IDC]Dragon | peeking at the MAS code doesn't help? |
| 22:29:08 | amiconn | I did peek there |
| 22:29:19 | [IDC]Dragon | our MAS code, I mean |
| 22:29:25 | amiconn | Yups |
| 22:30:17 | | Join [av]bani [0] (~goemon@washuu.anime.net) |
| 22:30:30 | [av]bani | Re: JoeBorn |
| 22:30:38 | [av]bani | they should either focus on the hardware, or the software |
| 22:30:42 | [av]bani | but not both |
| 22:30:52 | [av]bani | eg, make killer hw and make it easy to code for |
| 22:30:53 | [av]bani | or... |
| 22:31:11 | [av]bani | make a generic clonable/licensable open hw, and sell killer sw for it |
| 22:31:21 | Zagor | well even if they make killer hardware, they have to make decent firmware too. |
| 22:31:28 | [av]bani | well |
| 22:31:32 | [av]bani | if they pull a zaurus, it will flop |
| 22:31:33 | [av]bani | eg |
| 22:31:40 | [av]bani | nice hw, but poorly supported |
| 22:31:53 | Zagor | yes, but you also can't bet the company that an open source project will do everything |
| 22:32:26 | [av]bani | well, take rockbox for an example, the opensource fw turned out much nicer than stock, because you were able to hack it |
| 22:32:38 | [av]bani | but imagine how much ebtter it would have been had it been openly supported from the start |
| 22:32:45 | [av]bani | instead of making you jump through hoops |
| 22:33:00 | [av]bani | its like the pc market |
| 22:33:08 | [av]bani | you either focus on the hw, or focus on the sw |
| 22:33:13 | [av]bani | youre either dell or microsoft |
| 22:33:19 | [av]bani | dont try to do both |
| 22:33:21 | Zagor | pcs are commodities. mp3 players aren't (yet) |
| 22:33:33 | [av]bani | sure they are, mp3 players are definitely commodities |
| 22:33:43 | [av]bani | apple made sure of that |
| 22:34:04 | [av]bani | only a few companies can really pull off both, and it takes a lot of effort |
| 22:34:07 | Zagor | mp3 player hardware is not as interchangeable as pc hardware, is what I mean |
| 22:34:10 | [av]bani | apple ipod, rio |
| 22:34:20 | Zagor | each hardware manufacturer has to also make the software to run on it |
| 22:34:24 | [av]bani | look at how many companies flopped because either the hw was inadequate or the firmware was |
| 22:34:29 | Zagor | much like the pc business in the early 80s |
| 22:34:47 | [av]bani | well in the case of being open |
| 22:34:52 | [av]bani | either focus on the hw or focus on the sw |
| 22:35:03 | [av]bani | one or the other |
| 22:35:12 | Zagor | you are right in principle, but we aren't there yet |
| 22:35:15 | [av]bani | if youre totally closed/proprietary, you dont really have a choice |
| 22:35:24 | [av]bani | well, i'm just saying what Joe should do |
| 22:35:26 | Zagor | just making good hw will, as you say, risk a zaurus flop |
| 22:35:30 | [av]bani | if they want an open player |
| 22:35:49 | [av]bani | decide which side they will take |
| 22:36:06 | [av]bani | make killer hw and work closely with rockbox for good support |
| 22:36:29 | [av]bani | both sides win - they get nice fw and you get a nice player |
| 22:36:45 | Bagder | but that _is_ making good hw and good sw |
| 22:36:58 | Bagder | only open sw |
| 22:37:02 | [av]bani | they wouldnt be writing the sw though |
| 22:37:09 | [av]bani | theyd be making it easy for you to do so |
| 22:37:42 | amiconn | [IDC]Dragon: Many of your &= / |= settings for the PFC change only either the upper or lower half of the word, so could be replaced with and_b() / or_b(). Not done yet. |
| 22:37:49 | Zagor | too risky. they have to write some software themselves too. |
| 22:37:53 | amiconn | And it seems I found a mistake |
| 22:38:01 | Zagor | maybe the next company doesn't, but Joe definitely has to |
| 22:38:32 | [av]bani | rockbox already works, if they make it easy for you to poke the hw then a port should be easy |
| 22:38:39 | [av]bani | and faster than them writing their own |
| 22:38:41 | Zagor | at least I wouldn't want to bet my company on an bunch of volunteers who are under no obligation to do anything |
| 22:38:48 | [av]bani | plus, they can plug it that way, opensource player |
| 22:38:56 | [av]bani | get all the /.'ers drooling etc |
| 22:38:57 | Zagor | yes, we all agree about that |
| 22:39:01 | Zagor | even joe |
| 22:39:12 | [av]bani | because writing fw from scratch would likely take longer and cost more |
| 22:39:19 | [av]bani | so they can focus more on investing in hw |
| 22:39:23 | [av]bani | = better player |
| 22:39:36 | [av]bani | besides |
| 22:39:45 | [IDC]Dragon | amiconn: yes, I know. didn't bother for now, it reads nicer while experimenting. |
| 22:39:47 | [av]bani | few vendors actually _sell_ the firmware |
| 22:39:55 | | Join Nibbler [0] (~andrer@port-212-202-78-96.dynamic.qsc.de) |
| 22:40:20 | [av]bani | in the sense that most players are built with off the shelf parts |
| 22:40:26 | [av]bani | well, rockbox is one of those parts :) |
| 22:40:36 | Zagor | [av]bani: you don't need to sell *us* on the benefits of open source :) |
| 22:40:52 | [av]bani | did he say when he would be back? |
| 22:40:57 | [av]bani | so i can pitch to him :) |
| 22:41:14 | [av]bani | i just think that an openly clonable hw platform is the wrong way to go for them |
| 22:41:25 | [av]bani | which was what he was proposing |
| 22:41:26 | Zagor | you don't need to pitch to him either. the sole reason he was here was to find out how he could make their next product more rockbox-friendly |
| 22:41:57 | [av]bani | schematics and devkits with bdm support would be the best way :) |
| 22:42:40 | [av]bani | retail box, and dev sdk |
| 22:42:43 | [av]bani | :) |
| 22:47:16 | [av]bani | wiggler@home ? |
| 22:47:48 | Bagder | @linus' home |
| 22:49:04 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 22:49:07 | amiconn | [IDC]Dragon: Although I made SCK1 an output now, still no clock pulses :( |
| 22:50:15 | [IDC]Dragon | I once got pulses, a steady frequency |
| 22:50:24 | [av]bani | pulses are good |
| 22:50:46 | [IDC]Dragon | (even without outputting data) |
| 22:50:53 | [IDC]Dragon | do you writedata? |
| 22:50:58 | amiconn | Yes. |
| 22:51:20 | [IDC]Dragon | transmit enabled, and everything? |
| 22:51:36 | amiconn | I try to write 15625*16 bytes @400 kBit/s. Should take around 5 secs |
| 22:53:38 | amiconn | @375 kBit/s to be exact |
| 22:54:38 | [IDC]Dragon | how do you init SCI1? |
| 22:54:49 | amiconn | void setup_sci1(int rate) /* in bit/s, rounds down to the next possible value */ |
| 22:54:50 | amiconn | { |
| 22:54:50 | amiconn | int i; |
| 22:54:50 | DBUG | Enqueued KICK amiconn |
| 22:54:50 | amiconn | int divider = (FREQ/4 - 1) / rate; |
| 22:54:50 | amiconn | |
| 22:54:50 | *** | Alert Mode level 1 |
| 22:54:50 | amiconn | SCR1 = 0x00; /* disable serial port */ |
| 22:54:52 | amiconn | SMR1 = 0x80; /* Synchronous, no prescale */ |
| 22:54:54 | amiconn | BRR1 = divider; |
| 22:54:56 | amiconn | SCR1 = 0x01; /* clock output */ |
| 22:54:58 | amiconn | and_b(0xC7, SSR1); /* clear ORER, FER and PER */ |
| 22:55:02 | amiconn | for (i = 0; i < divider; i++); /* wait at least 1 bit time */ |
| 22:55:02 | amiconn | or_b(0x30, SCR1); /* enable TxD and RxD */ |
| 22:55:04 | amiconn | } |
| 22:56:06 | amiconn | This is called from ata_enable(true) with setup_sci1(400000); after setting SCK1, TxD1 and RxD1 pin functions, and making SCK1 and TxD1 outputs |
| 22:56:38 | [IDC]Dragon | the output part is only relevant if GPIO |
| 22:56:58 | amiconn | The divider evaluates to 7 for rate = 400000, verified with readback |
| 22:57:58 | amiconn | The output part is done in the mas serial setup (at least for SCK0). It shouldn't hurt anyway |
| 23:00 |
| 23:01:11 | | Part [av]bani |
| 23:01:33 | [IDC]Dragon | how do you wait for your output? |
| 23:01:53 | amiconn | for (i = 0; i < len; i++) |
| 23:01:53 | amiconn | { |
| 23:01:53 | amiconn | while (!(SSR1 & 0x80)); /* wait for TDRE = 1 */ |
| 23:01:53 | *** | Alert Mode level 2 |
| 23:01:53 | amiconn | TDR1 = buf[i]; /* write byte */ |
| 23:01:54 | *** | Alert Mode level 3 |
| 23:01:54 | amiconn | and_b(~0x80, SSR1); /* start transmitting */ |
| 23:01:54 | *** | Alert Mode level 4 |
| 23:01:54 | amiconn | } |
| 23:01:56 | amiconn | while (!(SSR1 & 0x04)); /* wait for TEND = 1 */ |
| 23:02:13 | amiconn | This is part of my mmc_write_transfer function |
| 23:02:41 | amiconn | (Well, most of it for now. I don't bother trying DMA for now) |
| 23:02:57 | [IDC]Dragon | you have to clear TDRE, i think |
| 23:03:21 | amiconn | I do this: and_b(~0x80, SSR1); /* start transmitting */ |
| 23:04:02 | [IDC]Dragon | ah, yes |
| 23:04:34 | [IDC]Dragon | have you tried the reverse order? |
| 23:04:53 | [IDC]Dragon | clear TDRE first, then write new data |
| 23:05:44 | amiconn | This would transmit the data that was in TDR1 before. The sequence is from the sh datasheet. I can't see what I am doing wrong here, maybe I'm blind. |
| 23:07:59 | [IDC]Dragon | I don't see it either |
| 23:08:44 | [IDC]Dragon | how about a close comparison withthe MAS play code? |
| 23:09:09 | amiconn | The MAS play code uses dma & interrupts... |
| 23:10:30 | Bagder | Zagor: I can't build the iriver sim |
| 23:11:11 | Bagder | oh never mind |
| 23:11:15 | | Quit silencer (Nick collision from services.) |
| 23:11:18 | | Join silencer [0] (~silencer@zen.via.ecp.fr) |
| 23:11:19 | Zagor | ok :) |
| 23:11:27 | | Quit silencer (Nick collision from services.) |
| 23:11:55 | *** | Alert Mode OFF |
| 23:11:56 | Bagder | biiig display ;-) |
| 23:12:02 | Zagor | yeah |
| 23:12:38 | Zagor | the text reader becomes very nice on this display |
| 23:13:26 | Zagor | hmm, did I break something? "make install" does not install the fonts |
| 23:14:10 | [IDC]Dragon | gotta sleep, c u |
| 23:15:20 | | Quit [IDC]Dragon () |
| 23:15:41 | Bagder | Zagor: I think the buildzip needs a little pat on the shoulder |
| 23:16:17 | | Join silencer_ [0] (~silencer@zen.via.ecp.fr) |
| 23:16:43 | Bagder | check the last 5 lines of it |
| 23:17:49 | Zagor | ah |
| 23:20:07 | Bagder | you fix or I? |
| 23:20:24 | Zagor | fixed |
| 23:21:25 | Zagor | we should remove all line wraps from the docs when we add it to the zip. they are ugly to read like this. |
| 23:22:01 | elinenbe | hi! |
| 23:22:18 | elinenbe | what's the status with the iriver? has much/any progress been made since last week? |
| 23:22:41 | Zagor | lots of new information, no code ran yet |
| 23:23:19 | Zagor | but our bdm pod arrived to linus today so things will hopefully take off a little soon |
| 23:23:53 | elinenbe | is everything in the wiki? |
| 23:24:01 | elinenbe | what is the bdm pod used for? |
| 23:24:55 | Zagor | it's for interfacing with the cpu's debug module. that way we can run gdb against it without running code. also it will help us flash it. |
| 23:27:17 | elinenbe | wow... nice! how much did that cost? |
| 23:27:24 | Zagor | $150 |
| 23:32:14 | Ctcp | Ignored 2 channel CTCP requests in 4 hours and 56 minutes at the last flood |
| 23:32:14 | * | Zagor got a mail with a link for a broken iriver on ebay |
| 23:32:46 | Bagder | lemme guess! |
| 23:32:53 | Bagder | "deliver in US only" ;-) |
| 23:33:01 | Zagor | nope, located in ireland |
| 23:33:09 | Bagder | how much? |
| 23:33:18 | Zagor | $15 so far |
| 23:33:35 | | Nick silencer_ is now known as silencer- (~silencer@zen.via.ecp.fr) |
| 23:33:36 | Bagder | and long time time is it left? |
| 23:33:40 | Zagor | 3 days |
| 23:34:02 | Zagor | 4 days have passed, 3 bidders (started at $5) |
| 23:34:24 | Bagder | ok, so it could be worth making a bid in a few days |
| 23:34:33 | Zagor | definitely |
| 23:38:45 | | Quit ripnetUK () |
| 23:51:07 | | Quit scott666_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 23:51:42 | | Join scott666_ [0] (~scott666@c-24-245-58-48.mn.client2.attbi.com) |
icon identifies that the person is a core developer (has commit access).