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#rockbox log for 2004-10-21

00:16:39 Quit iRiverMan ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)")
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02:45:27 Join bagawk [0] (Lee@bagawk.user)
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03:28:13BluechipHey Bagder, is the spec for your database available yet?
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08:43:59 Join Zagor [242] (
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09:02:24 Join Bagder_ [0] (
09:03:04Bagder_Zagor: here?
09:03:39Bagder_what about albums that have songs by multiple artists?
09:04:06Bagder_shouldn't there be an artist array?
09:04:20Zagorwell there is a problem with that
09:04:51Zagorremember we are only indexing songs. we don't have any other information.
09:04:58Zagorso the album info we get is from the songs.
09:05:10Zagorand several artists do release albums called the same thing
09:05:31Zagorso it's very difficult to know if an album is indeed mixed-artist or if just multiple artists have made albums with the same name
09:06:14Bagder_currently I store artist name with album name internally to deal with artists doing similarly named albums...
09:06:35Zagorso for starters, I'd say in the case of a mixed-artist album (where each song is actually tagged with a different artists, which they actually tend not to be), the album will be stored once for each artist
09:06:54Bagder_that's how my current code works
09:07:36Bagder_btw, the "pointers" mentioned, should I make them relative the file start or the start of the table it refers to?
09:07:44Zagorfil start
09:12:32Zagorsince it will be used for lseek(SEEK_SET)
09:13:13Bagder_yeps, I understand
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09:57:55 Join [IDC]Dragon [0] (
10:17:24 Quit Lucretia_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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10:52:24 Join Lynx_ [0] (lynx@
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11:04:12 Join Bagder_ [0] (
11:05:29Bagder_only 30 min nap today, less work done :-)
11:46:19[IDC]Dragonamiconn: hi there
11:49:20[IDC]Dragonare/will you be working on the ondio keyboard?
11:50:52*[IDC]Dragon is away for lunch
11:52:22amiconn[IDC]Dragon: I will, but first I want to complete the plugin rework (before 2.3 release)
12:40:47 Quit Bagder_ ("Leaving")
12:45:44[IDC]Dragon(back again)
12:46:33[IDC]Dragonamiconn: you mean, no keyboard for 2.3? That's no good :-(
12:51:59amiconnOf course Ondio keyboard in 2.3 would be nice. Btw: Is the Ondio already an "official supported platform" for the 2.3 release? Then it would make sense to add "Ondio 128 FM Recorder, Ondio 128 SP" to the rockbox statement on the home page
12:52:34amiconnMaybe I'll manage to do both plugins and keyboard before release...
12:55:24[IDC]Dragonit's not up to me to prioritize you, but I'd say the keyboard is more important than the last plugins
12:56:02amiconnThe plugins are also important (at least the default event handler part), because of the reason I mentioned yesterday.
12:56:12[IDC]Dragon"officially supported": why not? What's your opinion?
12:56:47[IDC]DragonI wasn't around yesterday
12:57:42Zagoramiconn: yes, they will be added to the frontpage when we release 2.3
12:58:48amiconnZagor: okay
12:59:33amiconn[IDC]Dragon: 11.02.46 # <amiconn> Zagor: I'd rather do that plugin stuff before release, because (iirc) shortly after the last release we broke api compatibility. That raised a number of "support calls" on the ml, because people wanted to flash with mixed rockbox/plugin versions, and got "incompatible version"
13:00:31***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
13:04:50[IDC]Dragonhmm, you could you prepare the API and implement later?
13:09:57[IDC]DragonI would do the keyboard, but my time is limited atm
13:19:08[IDC]Dragonmaybe I can do something, but can't promise :-(
13:25:36amiconnI can't change the api before the usb changes are done, because usb_screen() has to go, which can't be done as long as it is still used by plugins
13:26:02[IDC]Dragonah, OK
13:26:05amiconnThere are 8 plugins left to rework, 4 of them need only the usb adaption (they are player only)
13:28:07amiconnDepending on how complex the button changes work out, I may complete them this night, but I promise nothing...
13:50:29ZagorBagder: here?
13:51:07ZagorBagder: $maxalbumsperartist is never set
13:53:27Zagorin fact there isn't a list of albums attached to each artist either. ok.
14:10:07 Nick AciD` is now known as AciD (
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14:52:04BagderZagor: nah, there's still some things left. Like that.
15:00:32***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
15:02:02Lynx_if the debug menu shows questionmarks for the flash info, nothing can be done about flashing, right?
15:02:25BagderI'm in that position too
15:02:37[IDC]DragonLynx_: how is your SMT soldering?
15:03:11Lynx_[IDC]Dragon: hehe, i don't even know what the smt stands for...
15:03:34Lynx_[IDC]Dragon: you mean i could solder a new chip onto the board?
15:03:47[IDC]Dragonyes, I did that.
15:04:09Lynx_it's not my own box, and i don't know anyone that can do that or has the equipment anyway
15:04:31[IDC]Dragonbut be warned the pins are 0.5 mm spaced
15:04:54Lynx_we're not going to do that anyway
15:06:15Lynx_[IDC]Dragon: how much would the flashable chip cost?
15:07:07[IDC]Dragona few $
15:08:47[IDC]Dragonit's more involved than just soldering: you need to attach a serial link to the interior of the box (needs a level converter), and you need to hack the hardware a bit, to make it boot from there
15:10:19Lynx_[IDC]Dragon: ok, it's not worth the effort for us
15:10:49Lynx_what is all the MDB stuff in the menu? is that new, i didn't read anthing in the list
15:21:21[IDC]DragonMicronas Dynac Bass, a psycho-trick to "emulate" bass which your phones can't reproduce
15:22:21Lynx_ah, ok.
15:23:14ZagorBagder: also the song table pointer is hardcoded to 48? :)
15:23:33Bagderit'll always start there as you can see
15:23:51Bagderbut I do have local mods not yet committed
15:24:12Zagorthe filename table, yes. but the song table position depends on the size of the filename table
15:24:47Zagorthat's why I didn't give the filename table a pointer at all
15:24:57Bagderaha, right
15:25:01Bagdera bug
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15:26:42Lynx_would you say you can clearly hear the difference between mdb off an on?
15:33:49Zagorit's not just an on/off switch. there are several parameters that adjust the effect
15:35:37ZagorBagder: are you fixing right now?
15:35:45Zagori.e. do you want more feedback?
15:35:47Bagdernot this very second, no
15:35:52Bagderyou can wait a bit
15:35:57BagderI have pending fixes
15:54:42Bagdercommitted what I have now
15:57:47Bagderfeel free to edit, I won't be doing anything for a while now
16:07:55 Quit Lucretia_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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16:16:18Zagori wonder if we should perhaps replace empty strings with <empty> or something
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16:48:41 Join ScrpWork [0] (~Naikel@
16:49:12ScrpWorkyo ppl
16:50:13ScrpWorkhi Zagor
16:50:28ScrpWorkyour nick sounds familiar, maybe in the forums
16:50:45Zagorheh, yeah i've been around a bit.
16:50:46ScrpWorkyeah you were the one arguing in iRiverLounge
16:51:00Zagorwell I'm the founder...
16:51:14ScrpWorkRockbox project founder?
16:51:21ScrpWorkoh cool
16:51:49ScrpWorkyeah I remember seeing Konrad all pissed off and I never understood why
16:52:14Zagorthat was a strange episode
16:52:21ScrpWorkI guess they wanted something like "we worship iRiverLounge's Konrad 'cos we got this info from his team" in your webpage hehehe
16:52:26ScrpWorksuch a kid
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16:57:37ScrpWorkthey stopped their project for good, right?
16:58:00Zagorthat's what they said anyway
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17:00:41ScrpWorktoo bad 'cos even if they have that attitude, they were doing some useful research
17:04:22 Join gromit``` [0] (
17:10:41ScrpWorkso what are the latest news in iRiver porting?
17:11:51Zagordepends on what you last heard :)
17:15:14 Quit Zagor ("disconnecting from stoned server.")
17:15:56ScrpWorklast thing I heard was from Linus that he got Background Debug Module running
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17:15:59 Nick Zagor_ is now known as Zagor (
17:15:59ScrpWorkbut I wanted to know more about the disasembling of the firmware
17:16:05ScrpWork[11:15:45 am] <ScrpWork> last thing I heard was from Linus that he got Background Debug Module running
17:16:05ScrpWork[11:15:57 am] <ScrpWork> but I wanted to know more about the disasembling of the firmware
17:16:37Zagorwe're not looking much at the iriver firmware. we're focused on writing our own.
17:17:29ScrpWorkyour firmware is open source?
17:17:32Zagorlinus got the scheduler running and the firmware can now blink the background led :)
17:17:35ScrpWorkI mean you distribute the sources?
17:17:37ScrpWorkyes? that's great
17:17:54 Join _Lucretia [0] (
17:18:09ScrpWorkI would love an iRiver H120 emulator
17:18:19Zagorwe would never have gotten this far with closed source
17:18:35 Quit Lucretia_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
17:19:14ScrpWorkI guess, people love to help with open source
17:19:14Zagorthere were some people working on an emulator a month ago or so. i don't know the status of that.
17:19:15ScrpWorkbut hate to code everything
17:19:29ScrpWorkI'm really interested in an emulator
17:19:34ScrpWorkeven if I have to make one my own heh
17:19:34Zagoryeah. search the wiki
17:19:50ScrpWorkI've heard from Badger you have a simulator for the CPU
17:19:55ScrpWorkbut the thing is to emulate the whole tihng
17:20:05ScrpWorkall the hardware, like the Palm emulator :)
17:20:44Zagoryeah, as i understand it someone had that ambition. it's lots of work though, so I won't blame him if he changed his mind :)
17:21:09ScrpWorkyup lot of work, but it can be a subproject, I mean, people that won't bother the core developers of the Rockbox project
17:21:33ScrpWorkwell if it's only one guy he'll never make it, not 'cos skills, but 'cos lack of time instead
17:21:59Zagoryes. but all projects start with only one guy :)
17:22:14ScrpWorkI guess (I have never made a project myself)
17:22:20*ScrpWork clicks
17:22:42ScrpWorkthat emulates the CPU
17:22:48ScrpWorkprevious versions of
17:22:54Bagderthat's a good start
17:23:23ScrpWorkgood start? that's like halfway through heheh emulate the CPU is the hardest thing on any emulator usually
17:24:12Bagderwell, the archos emulators did the CPU but not the rest
17:24:26Bagderso I wouldn't underestimate the rest
17:25:17ScrpWorkhave you seen the Palm emulator? that's what I picture in my mind for the iRiver
17:25:29Zagorexcept that mad guy who wrote a whole av120 emulator in java, then disappeared off the face of the earth... :-)
17:26:03Bagderstill, for Rockbox, we manage pretty fine with the simulator
17:26:16ScrpWorkI'm way sure of it
17:26:22 Quit gromit`` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
17:27:06ScrpWorkbut an emulator will promote people to enhance any firmware, or make their own
17:27:12Bagdernice post
17:27:24Bagder"any firmware" ?
17:27:28Bagderyou think there will be many?
17:27:54ScrpWorkwith an emulator and the source code of Rockbox, hell yes you'll see like 10 different firmware come out of nowhere
17:28:07Bagderwe don't on archos
17:28:14Bagderwe see two
17:28:19ScrpWorkI don't think archos players are that widely used
17:28:30Bagderwe have 600 subscribers of the list
17:28:36Bagderisn't that wide enough?
17:28:44Bagderpeople don't fork "just because"
17:28:53ZagorScrpWork: i think you overestimate the appeal of writing your own firmware :)
17:29:08ScrpWorkwell I won't write my own firmware, that's not easy at all
17:29:09Bagderyou want developers to develop it
17:29:24Bagderhaving a larger team in one project is better than spread out in many
17:29:30Zagorwe actually thought people would want to do it, and even prepared the code for it, but it never happened.
17:30:16Zagormost people rather contribute to rockbox instead of forking it off
17:30:56Zagor(the exception is the people who try to rip it off, but let's not go into that...)
17:31:06[IDC]DragonOpenNeo is a fork...
17:33:12[IDC]Dragonso there is one, plus what BC is doing
17:34:44Zagoryes, but I don't see openneo as a traditional fork. they didn't fork off because they wanted to go in a different direction. they forked because they wanted to claim all the credit.
17:36:00Zagorbut let me rephrase: nobody wanted to write their own firmware using our drivers. everybody is using our complete code.
17:36:09ScrpWorkso you patched the ColdFire emulator to work on the 5249?
17:37:12ZagorScrpWork: i don't know the status of the emulator work
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18:03:53 Part Zagor
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18:31:07 Part Lynx_
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19:00:34***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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21:21:01ScrpWorkgeez Lucretia has a quite stable connection huh?
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22:07:40ScrpWorkyou look like Zagor
22:07:46webguest74hi im tryin to track someone down
22:08:32ScrpWorknever heard of that nick before
22:08:40ScrpWorkbut maybe someone else around have
22:10:25webguest74dwihno might
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23:00:39***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
23:01:25 Join iRiverMan [0] (
23:01:39iRiverManGot a response from iriver today
23:06:10 Quit gromit``` ("Client exiting")
23:07:17ScrpWorkwhat did they say?
23:07:18 Join _Lucretia_ [0] (
23:07:20ScrpWorkand what did you ask? :)
23:07:47iRiverManabout the shuffling issue
23:08:07iRiverManThank you for your email. We are sorry to cause you any inconvenience. We will pass all of your problems and valuable suggestions to our engineering team for consideration. We will try to satisfy our customer's requests.
23:08:13iRiverManthats what they sent me
23:08:34iRiverManWhen i set the Shuffle mode when playing Playlists, the Shuffle mode always plays the same songs in the same order. I don''t have this problem when shuffleing the entire hard drive, only when playing Playlists. Will there be a firmware upgrade to fix this? Also will there be a firmware upgrade to enable recording from the radio, ''on-the-fly'' playlist making, and support for the codecs AAC, MP3Pro and ATRAC3? Please answer my questions as I think t
23:08:40iRiverManthat was my original email
23:08:59Zagorlooks like an actual personal response. i'm impressed :-)
23:09:16iRiverManwhats that Zagor?
23:09:56Zagorwhich iriver did you contact? us or korea?
23:10:14iRiverMani think it was the Europe section
23:10:53iRiverManI think the iriver looks better in its champagne gold than black
23:13:53iRiverMani hope radio recording can be done via a f/w upgrade
23:14:15ScrpWorkoh that's why the told me for the same issue
23:14:43ScrpWorklemme login to the eBox thing
23:15:59ScrpWorkiRiver Response: (09/14/2004 01:26)
23:15:59ScrpWorkDear Naikel,
23:15:59ScrpWorkThank you for your suggestion, I will pass it to our development staff for consideration.
23:15:59DBUGEnqueued KICK ScrpWork
23:15:59ScrpWorkThank you,
23:15:59ScrpWorkThao T.
23:16:05ScrpWork−−−− my original mail was −−−−−−−−-
23:16:09ScrpWorkI have a serious request for a firmware upgrade. Shuffle randomness is non existant practically. I suggest you use a better random algorith, using the battery level as a seed. Or maybe count ticks since when you power on the player until you select shuffle and use the count as a seed. Another desirable request: Shuffle including subdirectories. As a workaround I create playlists but again the shuffle randomness is still being an issue. Regards, and thanks
23:16:32ScrpWorkand that was looooong time ago
23:16:36ScrpWorkstill no fix for that
23:16:49ScrpWorkwell more like a month ago heh
23:18:14 Join LizardOfOz [0] (
23:18:19ScrpWorkthe support for codecs AAC, MP3Pro and ATRAC3 I really doubt it
23:18:31ScrpWorksince the firmware can't grow much from the size it already has
23:18:46ScrpWorkbut hell fix the randomness and all the users are gonna be happy
23:23:45iRiverManbut Scrp the decodeing is done by software not hardware
23:23:53iRiverManjust requires new decoding code and all that
23:24:06ScrpWorkand there's no room for firmware to put that code in
23:24:19iRiverManbut there is ogg decoding
23:24:23iRiverManand i know ogg is hard to decode
23:24:35ScrpWorkyeah and WMA but I think the firmware can't grow anymore
23:24:42ZagorI'd say cost is even more an issue than room. all of those codecs are proprietary and require licensing.
23:24:47iRiverManim sure aac is possible
23:24:55iRiverManwhat about mp3pro
23:24:55ScrpWorkthat might be a possibility
23:25:00iRiverManmp3pro doesn't need a licence
23:25:13iRiverManand mp3pro sounds much better than wma
23:25:18Zagoryes is does
23:25:24Zagorlook it up
23:25:31ScrpWorkI still think mp3 is fine, OGG and WMA are a plus (and I don't use them) :\
23:25:48iRiverManWAV sounds awesome
23:25:55iRiverManplayed a WAV file today
23:27:08 Part LizardOfOz
23:27:15iRiverManwhy WAV's can't have id3 tags like other codecs?
23:28:00Zagorwav is not a codec. it's uncompressed.
23:28:34iRiverManyea but im sure it can hold some info like MP3
23:29:06iRiverManunless during the MP3 compressin the tag info is embedded in the code
23:29:18amiconnIirc WAV is a container format, and can contain audio in pretty much any form...
23:29:51iRiverManyea but usually WAV is used for uncompressed PCM audio 44.1Khz 16 bit sampling
23:29:58Zagoryou have a strange habit of assuming things without knowledge :)
23:30:10iRiverManwell thats what WAV is
23:30:37iRiverManwhen u rip a wav file in Musicmatch
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23:31:50 Quit webguest64 (Client Quit)
23:32:56iRiverMani know what i am talking about
23:33:40ScrpWorkwave have a header yeah but the already invented it and they didn't leave any room for "tags"
23:33:59ScrpWorkyou have to make up a new audio container
23:34:12ScrpWorkcall it iMan with extension .iman
23:34:45iRiverManScrp u are beginning to sound like someone rather familiar ;-)
23:35:06ScrpWorkyou can save an mp3 as a .wav and it works, all audio software (like Sound Forge) allows you to do that, WAV is just a container
23:35:09ScrpWorklike AVI, OGM, etc
23:35:13ScrpWorkthey can have anything inside
23:35:20ScrpWorkreally? I'm new in the network
23:35:26ScrpWorkI'm from undernet
23:35:37iRiverMani own soundforge
23:35:50iRiverMangood software
23:36:06ScrpWorkyup even after Sony swallowed it, it's still good software
23:36:08ScrpWorkthat's what I use everyday
23:36:33iRiverManme 2
23:36:46iRiverMani suppose the Sony versions let u save in ATRAC3
23:36:56ScrpWorkyeah but you have to buy the plugin
23:37:04ScrpWorkwell you have to buy the mp3 plugin to save in MP3
23:37:17ScrpWorkyou have like 10 free uses first
23:37:32iRiverManthat is just GAY
23:37:40iRiverMantypical Sony razor blade marketing
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23:37:50ScrpWorkSound Forge is like that, after I saved my 10 MP3 is asked me for the registration code
23:37:59iRiverMani've got a pirate version
23:38:02ScrpWorkjust for the MP3 plugin, totally different to the registration code of the software
23:38:13ScrpWorkyeah me too, I downloaded a keygenerator for that and fuck it hehehe
23:38:33ScrpWorkwhy is there so many people with host!?!?
23:38:47Zagoreveryone using the web client gets that
23:38:56ScrpWorkthere's a web client?
23:39:11iRiverManAt least with the iriver mp3 transfer is simple drag-and-drop
23:40:08Zagorand I have that host too sometimes because I use an irc proxy on that server
23:40:19 Quit Hadaka (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
23:40:35 Quit _Lucretia_ (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
23:40:46iRiverManthe feel of the ipod is so tacky compared to iriver
23:42:21Zagorahh, finally got the database generator working right
23:42:25mrelwoodWhat is the best place for a noob to follow iHP-120 progress? Daily builds already list iHP-100...
23:43:33Zagormrelwood: this channel, really. there are not many mails or forum posts about it yet.
23:43:51mrelwoodok. well, how's the progress..? :o)
23:44:00Zagoryou can read the logs on the web site if you don't want to be online all the time
23:44:34Zagorsteady but slow. linus has ported the kernel and ran a simple backlight blink program.
23:44:40mrelwoodI'm afraid I won't understand much unless explained...
23:44:43 Quit edx (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:45:07iRiverManZagor if u flashed iriver to rockbox, could u flash it back to iriver f/w?
23:45:22ZagorI don't have any hardware yet, so I'm doing high-level stuff like codecs and id3 database
23:45:26ZagoriRiverMan: yes
23:45:37iRiverManthe iriver f/w has the extension .hex
23:45:44mrelwoodokay... I suppose the porting is a good thing...
23:46:05ZagoriRiverMan: you select the file and press play
23:46:32 Join miner49er [0] (
23:46:52iRiverManok coolies
23:47:01miner49erCan anyone help me with a rockbox coding question please?
23:47:10Zagorminer49er: sure
23:47:42miner49erYou know the _drawarray function? can I use it in a plugin?
23:47:57miner49erit doesn't seem to be used anywhere?
23:48:20miner49erI wondered if it would work like a bitblip, so I could do offscreen drawing.
23:48:33miner49erbitblit, sorry :-)
23:49:11Zagorthere is no such function
23:49:18miner49eryeah, i think that's what it's called - i'll go see
23:49:40 Join _Lucretia_ [0] (
23:49:53miner49erhah, sorry it's called writearray
23:50:41Zagorah, ok. it's internal to the grayscale lib. you can't call it. what do you need it for?
23:50:44miner49erand it's in a file gray_drawGrayMap
23:51:23miner49erWell, I wondered if the array could be filled up elsewhere and drawn to the screen quickly
23:51:48Zagorthat's how the screenbuffer works already
23:52:27Zagordo you want to draw grayscale or b/w?
23:52:30miner49erOh, right. But how come if I fill the screen pixel by pixel i see it happen, like it updates straight away?
23:52:39miner49er...for each pixel.
23:52:58miner49erOh, I want grayscale, yes.
23:53:00iRiverManjust out of interest with the ondio in rockbox can u access the MMC card and on-board flash memory at the same time?
23:53:04 Quit mrelwood ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
23:53:31amiconnminer49er: _writearray is private (that's why it is prefixed with _) - don't touch it. You can prepare an image as a garymap and use gray_drawgraymap() to display it
23:53:46amiconniRiverMan: Not yet, but it is planned
23:53:58iRiverManis it possible
23:54:14miner49erOh, okay, I will go and play with that then. Thank for your help :-)
23:54:27iRiverManI wonder why the Ondio won't work with SD cards
23:54:58amiconnBecause they don't fit mechanically - they are 2.1 mm thick, while MMCs are only 1.4 mm thick
23:55:18amiconnIf you can force them to fit, they work - one user has tried it
23:56:11Zagoramiconn: by carving a bigger hole? ;)
23:56:34amiconnI dunno exactly how he did it...
23:57:16amiconn...but he uses an 1 GB SD card, and it works with rockbox (but not with archos fw :-P)

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