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#rockbox log for 2004-11-26

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00:45:43Digital007does apple sell the white earphones seperately?
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01:00:46 Quit chendo (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
01:01:33CrunchyBearHey everyone, was hoping someone can help. After a complete format on a 6000 player, rockbox or even the newest archos firmware won't recognise, and it just boots from the initial one ... bit confused.
01:10:04Digital007crunchybear try reformmatting with FAT32
01:11:15Digital007archos wont recognise NTFS
01:11:34CrunchyBearIt was just reformatted with FAT32, everything seems to run fine, except picking up the archos.mod
01:13:19CrunchyBearyeah, heh
01:13:57Digital007is it flashed
01:14:45CrunchyBearno, I don't think so ... ?
01:15:20Digital007had a archos recoder once
01:16:38Digital007wasnt bad at all
01:16:52Digital007on my 4th mp3 player now
01:17:08CrunchyBearmy players been fine for years and years now, never seems to fail me, jolly good players
01:17:36Digital007i have an iriver now
01:18:00CrunchyBearah cool cool
01:19:16Digital007they used to be called ihp-120s before HP made them change the name
01:22:25Digital007they said the initials HP was their trademark
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07:57:17amiconnGood morning
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10:27:18 Join floof [0] (
10:27:23floofhi all
10:28:04floofI'm trying to know if the rockbox project is likely to run on a Gmini 220
10:28:10Bagderit isn't
10:28:18floofwill it ?
10:28:27BagderI doubt that
10:28:31floofwhy ?
10:28:47Bagderfeel free to make it
10:29:14floofi would if i could, but my programming skills are below zero ...
10:29:40Bagderso, the reason is that no owner of a gmini is skilled or determined enough
10:29:58Bagderor gets enough assistance
10:30:22Bagdermany of us thinks Archos doesn't deserve rockbox
10:30:34Bagderso we won't go for another archos player
10:30:39floofwhy ? archos is kick ass !!!
10:30:53floofwell, my gmini at least
10:30:53Bagderif it kicks ass, why do you want Rockbox for it?
10:31:35floofbecause it could bring interressant features ... like battery saving etc ... gapless playback ...
10:31:50Bagderso, then it doesn't kick ass since it lacks basic features
10:32:16Bagderthat's how I see it at least
10:38:28floofok, I'll stick with my old archos firmware ... bye
10:39:07dwihnoBagder: Who do you think "deserves" rockbox?
10:43:19dwihnoTalk for yourself ;)
10:43:27dwihnoI was thinking about hardware manufacturers.
10:43:34dwihnoAnyone been interested in using the rockbox project?
10:43:35Bagderhey, I talk to myself all the time! ;-)
10:44:22Bagderbut I think Archos has been VERY ignorant
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10:48:11amiconnBagder: The fact that archos doesn't kick ass because it lacks basic features is imho the very reason why it *needs* rockbox.
10:48:22BagderI agree
10:48:51amiconnIf archos would have been good enough from the start it might have *deserved* rockbox but wouldn't need it
10:49:24Bagderby deserving, I mean that the company could've acted differently
10:49:31amiconnI think there is no current player hw manufacturer that deserved rockbox.
10:50:25floofdo you need customers like me to ask them for it ... and maube to pressure them ?
10:50:53amiconnI could imagine a company deciding to produce a player that is running rockbox right from the start, and supporting the developers accordingly.
10:51:08amiconnThat company would probably deserve rockbox
10:52:17floofis there only iriver that deserves RB ?
10:52:50LinusNwe don't know if they deserve it or not, we haven't been in touch with them
10:53:45amiconnLinusN: What about Neuros?
10:54:31LinusNthey want to build a player for rockbox
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10:58:02[IDC]DragonOT: my 1 GB MMC arrived
10:58:26[IDC]Dragonand I left the Ondio at home
10:58:39amiconnLinusN: Is that a new device, or the same thing they recently released the sources for? The latter imho doesn't qualify as a device that truly deserves rockbox.
10:58:42LinusN[IDC]Dragon: no EL modules?
10:58:43amiconn[IDC]Dragon: :(
10:58:58LinusNamiconn: read again: "want to"
10:59:03[IDC]DragonLinusN: EL is coming? :-)
10:59:43amiconnLinusN: Did they contact you or what?
10:59:54amiconnThere's nothing in the wiki yet
11:00:30LinusNamiconn: we're not talking loudly about it, because it is so far only a thought in Joe Born's head
11:00:51dwihnoLinusN: they want to build the player around the software? :O
11:01:19LinusN[IDC]Dragon: i have ordered the modules to your address
11:01:36[IDC]Dragonthank you so much
11:02:32LinusNyou're welcome
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11:42:03amiconnLinusN: Very interesting chat with JoeBorn indeed. I missed that somehow...
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14:13:42till_varoquauxI have a very dumb question
14:14:24till_varoquauxhas any of the devs try to contact archos to see if you could make a device hand in hand with them
14:14:49till_varoquauxThat could turn out interesting
14:15:02LinusNi very much doubt it
14:15:13dwihnoLinusN: tell me more about neuros... are they considering manufacturing a new unit and using rockbox as os?
14:15:29LinusNthey have discussed it with us
14:15:42till_varoquauxI mean actually trying to pick out hardware that would be easier/more flexible to programm
14:16:05LinusNtill_varoquaux: it's not in their interest
14:16:13webmindtill_varoquaux, that would increase the cost
14:16:20till_varoquauxThey could really benefit from your work however
14:16:25dwihnoLinusN: nothing more happenend? :(
14:16:39till_varoquauxOh I see...
14:16:45till_varoquauxand why that?
14:16:50LinusNthey are into video devices nowadays, and there's not much in rockbox they have use for
14:17:24till_varoquauxYeah but they could try to getan open source firmware for this
14:17:56till_varoquauxAnd I'm pretty shure the community as tons of ideas for design improvements
14:18:04LinusNhere's my view of it:
14:18:13LinusNthey want to sell hardware
14:18:35LinusNif they release the firmware, they prolong the lifespan of their products
14:18:46LinusNand they sell less devices
14:19:00till_varoquauxYeah bu they could have a better market share
14:19:24till_varoquauxI mean with Ipods swarming the whole business
14:19:56LinusNsure, but i doubt that their management gets it
14:19:57ZagorLinusN: personally I doubt they have analyzed it that much. i rather think they simply don't understand what we do.
14:19:58ashridahtill_varoquaux: market share isn't a major driving force. increasing profits are, which you only get by developing a 'new' product every XXX units of time and selling them again to early adopters
14:20:23till_varoquauxMy point of view (I might be very wrong):
14:20:41ashridahreleasing a kickass product, and then not being able to sell new ones because the public gets what they want won't get them as far
14:20:53till_varoquauxDeveloppement of units could be cheaper for them
14:21:08till_varoquauxThere is always room for hardware improvements
14:21:21till_varoquaux(this is already what they do)
14:22:07till_varoquauxand people would be a lot more enclined to use the units if it had something friendlier than musicmatch budled with it
14:22:44till_varoquauxI thight integration with amarok for instance (or winamp) could be a reall plus
14:23:03till_varoquauxAnd they would benefit from a savier design
14:23:55till_varoquaux(I think there units while being technologically great don't have teh good looks of an IPOD)
14:24:53 Quit ashridah ("sleep")
14:25:54till_varoquauxanyone here?
14:26:14till_varoquauxit's for linux
14:26:22till_varoquauxlooks a lot like itunes
14:26:34LinusNi too think that an open source firmware might be good for archos
14:26:43Zagorwhat's to integrate? it's a collection of files.
14:26:43LinusNbut i don't care
14:26:57till_varoquauxone could port it easilly t windows and mac
14:27:20Zagorhalf the point of the archos is that you don't have to use silly programs, just copy the files and play them
14:27:31till_varoquauxI know
14:27:38Zagori would never buy a player that required pc software
14:27:47till_varoquauxthat's why I liked my jukebox
14:28:21till_varoquauxhowever this doesn't prevent to integrate synchrisation... to players
14:28:32till_varoquauxkeeping the best of both world
14:29:09till_varoquauxAnd the multimedia requires you to recompress most of your movies
14:29:10Zagori don't understand what that means. the player plays mp3 files. what is there to "integrate"?
14:29:40till_varoquauxjust a very simple mirror utility would to the trick
14:30:32Zagorthat's a software issue, nothing with the player. hence no integration.
14:30:55till_varoquauxYes this is partially true:
14:31:18till_varoquauxIf you get pluggable DRM modules you could have full integration
14:31:30till_varoquauxfrom the store to the player
14:31:41till_varoquauxand thats firmware issues
14:31:46Zagorsure, if you want to be sued by apple
14:32:25till_varoquauxSome other companies might be interested in building there own DRM nodules
14:32:37till_varoquauxnot necessarilly Fair Use
14:32:39Zagori don't think itunes is a concept to copy. it's way too locked in and annoys customers
14:32:58till_varoquauxI don't like it either but it works
14:33:06LinusN[IDC]Dragon: i just committed the metronome tap patch, could you try it on the ondio?
14:33:24[IDC]Dragonnot now, but later, yes
14:33:39till_varoquauxAnd given the fact that most (if not all) online music stores have there own DRM
14:34:03Zagornot so, only american stores
14:34:05LinusN[IDC]Dragon: thanks
14:34:13till_varoquauxyou will want one day to be able to get a player able to play DRM'd file
14:34:21ZagorI don't
14:34:28till_varoquauxWasn't aware of this
14:35:09till_varoquauxmost customers like to have a package that works out of the box (store player...)
14:35:34till_varoquauxthis could be done with the involvement of the open source community
14:35:55Zagoropen source and drm are pretty incompatible
14:36:02till_varoquauxAnd I would favour store that don't sell DRM'd files
14:36:36till_varoquauxI mean open source firmware but closed source DRM pluggins for playback
14:36:54Zagorthen it is not open source
14:37:04till_varoquauxnot the plug-in
14:37:32till_varoquauxfor instance currently I'm using eclipse(ide for java)
14:37:38till_varoquauxit's gpl'd
14:37:57Zagorso basically you're asking why archos doesn't setup a music store and try to compete with apple on their turf?
14:37:58till_varoquauxbut there are commercial plug-ins for i
14:38:28Zagoryeah but how much do you think we want to work for free just so others can profit from our work, and not even share their code?
14:38:52till_varoquauxI get your point
14:39:07Zagorit's very difficult do mix open and closed source. many have tried, few have succeeded.
14:39:32till_varoquauxAs you have pointed out some stores don't use DRM
14:39:55till_varoquauxthese are just examples of what could be done
14:40:32till_varoquauxmy point is Archos definitly has the edge when it comes to hardware
14:40:35LinusN[IDC]Dragon: aaah, the ondio metronome keys are still not correct
14:41:10till_varoquauxhowever their CHI is not as User-Friendly (arguably) as others
14:41:30till_varoquauxAnd there design could also benefit for some improvements
14:41:38Zagoryes, the iPod is not successful because it has better software. it is successful because they have spent many many millions on marketing.
14:41:53till_varoquauxwell yes and no
14:42:01till_varoquauxIt looksmuch better
14:42:05Zagor(and to a certain degree because apple has very loyal followers)
14:43:08till_varoquauxbut an archos player could have all (and much more) of the qualities of the Ipod
14:43:25Bagderso could most mp3 players
14:43:39Bagder*could* being the word
14:43:40Zagorwhich qualities are that, exactly? two-second gap between songs? seven-click volume adjustment?
14:44:02till_varoquauxMuch better design
14:44:17Bagderapparently people think so
14:45:06till_varoquauxAnd indexed file searching (this is arguable because it currently requires a special upload mechanisme)
14:45:24Bagderseveral players have that
14:45:34till_varoquauxeasy as pie to get working with a music player/music store
14:46:14till_varoquauxand trendy because of addvertisement
14:46:41Zagorthose are not properties, they are just marketing impressions
14:47:01*Bagder is trying to figure out what the point in this discussion is
14:47:02Zagori've never heard anyone have problems copying their music to an archos
14:47:08ZagorBagder: so do i :)
14:51:36Zagori think perhaps my point is that trying to copy the ipod is not going to make anyone happy. those who like the ipod should buy it.
14:51:54Zagoralso, irrational brand loyalty is not good for you :)
15:16:09till_varoquauxYeah I guess you are somehow right
15:16:59till_varoquauxI just don't like the looks of archos units (I think most of them are plain ugly)
15:17:34till_varoquauxand I was wondering why they weren't trying to get more feedback from there users
15:18:17Zagori agree with you about the looks, even though it seems they are starting to learn that now. the gmini 400 isn't bad imho.
15:18:33till_varoquauxI also think (and I guess we'll all agree on that) that *their* firmware is not as good as it could be
15:19:01Zagorwell no mp3 player comes with good firmware, that's not an archos thing
15:19:35till_varoquauxSince they have terrific hardware I thought they could really do a killer unit if they worked hand in hand with the users willing to get involbed
15:19:58till_varoquauxbut I guess the Ipod was a very bad exemple
15:20:11Zagoryes, but that is very unnatural for any company to do. I wouldn't expect it to happen anywhere for several more years.
15:20:43Zagorcompanies are not used to customers knowing more than their engineers.... ;)
15:20:48till_varoquauxI just think you guys could offer to give a hand
15:21:05Bagderyou are naive
15:21:13till_varoquauxI mean they *are* shipping Rockbox with th jukebox now
15:21:27till_varoquauxBadger: I might be
15:21:44Bagderthey know where we are
15:21:47Bagderthey know what we do
15:21:50Bagderthey know what we can
15:21:57Zagordo they? i spoke to their marketing guy about that a long time ago, but they demanded we call rockbox a "cooperation project"
15:22:13Zagor(do they ship?)
15:22:30till_varoquauxI read a news saying they did
15:22:40Zagorgot a link?
15:22:57till_varoquauxI bought my jukebox very long ago and I sure didn't have it
15:23:04till_varoquauxI'll search for one
15:24:09till_varoquauxthere you go
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15:24:33Bagdertill_varoquaux: Zagor is Björn
15:24:38Bagderwho wrote that mail
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15:25:00Bagder"plans" being the word to focus on
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15:25:16Zagorwe spoke on the phone a few times, but it never happened as far as I know.
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15:25:28till_varoquauxso Rockbox never got shipped with the jukebox
15:25:37Zagoras far as I know, no
15:25:41till_varoquauxthat's sad.....
15:25:50till_varoquauxI thought it had
15:26:31till_varoquauxso my utopia of archos walking hand in hand with the community is fading away
15:28:41till_varoquauxI guess it would take a lot of work to get archos to understand it is good for *them* to open up a little there business model
15:28:57till_varoquauxI mean they are selling hardware not software
15:34:34till_varoquauxdang I gotta go in a couple of minuts
15:35:28till_varoquauxwell if you think a gesture towards archos to work with this community could have any positive impact I'm willing to try to get it working
15:36:42Zagorthanks, but we're not terribly interested. we have no plans to support their newer players, so there is not much they could offer us. a "thank you" would be nice, of course but I have a very hard time seeing that happen :)
15:37:45till_varoquauxso if I get it right
15:38:26till_varoquauxIf they opened the specs for one of there futur products (or even better asked you your advice)
15:38:54till_varoquauxyou would decline (because you don't have time and/or interest)
15:39:31BagderI bet a bunch of people would be happy to develop for it
15:39:40Bagderrockbox is open source
15:39:54Bagderanyone can make it run on a new platform, given some time and sweat
15:40:13Bagderand lots of skill of course
15:40:14Zagorif they wanted honest cooperation we'd probably be interested, but of course we can't make any promises
15:40:32till_varoquauxI just need to know if there would be support from the community if they offered to open up
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15:41:25till_varoquauxI mean I can't justb go up to them and ask to have a more open devellopement model if I don't have back-up
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15:41:34till_varoquauxI meant offer
15:41:54Bagderwe can never guarantee anything
15:41:56Zagorwell, you can't *know*. you can have strong indications, but the whole point of open source is that everyone does what he wants to.
15:42:08Bagderunless they pay
15:42:08till_varoquauxYes I get it
15:42:58Zagorif they were seriously interested in approaching the community, I'm sure we could agree on good ways of cooperation though.
15:43:15BagderI'm sure we would
15:43:34Bagder...just that it won't happen
15:43:49till_varoquauxWell I guess I might still give it a shot
15:44:19till_varoquauxI need to get a serious offer together first
15:44:29till_varoquauxfoster a community maybe
15:44:38till_varoquauxbut who knows?
15:44:54Zagorwhat would such an offer contain?
15:45:22till_varoquauxWell not really an offer
15:45:39till_varoquauxI meant showing there is potential
15:46:02till_varoquauxand peoples willing to cooperate
15:46:17till_varoquauxnot come just as a lunatic
15:46:33Zagorwell they know about us very well, so that's not a problem
15:46:46till_varoquauxthx gotta go
15:47:21till_varoquauxbut I'll try to thing about a good to get things started when I'll have spare time
15:47:54till_varoquauxThere is still a lot to discuss about
15:48:13till_varoquauxand I guess that I'm going nowhere fast
15:48:28Zagori'm available for discussion
15:48:34till_varoquauxbut hey... as said before who knows?
15:48:47till_varoquauxsee you around
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18:59:47Tanghi all folks :)
19:04:02TangI don't know if it's known
19:04:27Tangbut i have to say that in the past
19:05:03Tangsome guys tld about a n alt.firmware for iHP called "Ennis project"
19:05:51Tangthe matter is tyhat nobody know if it was real or just hoax
19:06:15Tanganyway theses guys said they stopped their project
19:06:24Tangdue to iRiver pressures...
19:07:13TangSo if it's true i don't think there is something to wait from iriver about "helping"
19:07:29TangI also do know for sure
19:07:37Bagderwe never thought they'd help us
19:08:19Tangok i have i
19:08:31Tangmisunderstood something about the neuros chat maybe
19:08:58Tanganyway i hope the compagny won't be aware of your project
19:09:12BagderI doubt it matters
19:09:16Bagderwe do nothing illegal
19:09:26Tangyes i do know but
19:09:52Tangseems they are quite "agressive" with all alt project
19:10:04Tangfor exemple they were
19:10:14BagderI guess we'll see then
19:10:48Tangfor exemple iriver didn't aprpeciate that much all the inetrface customizing stuff
19:11:15Tang(they removed all thrads about theses tools on their boards and so on
19:11:23 Join einhirn [0] (
19:12:10TangAnyway pesonnaly i think rockbox iRiverport is the best things that could happen for iRiver
19:12:40Tangsince their own firmware support is simply awful
19:13:02BagderI've orded one now
19:13:08Tangyou too
19:13:14Bagdergotta go
19:13:17*Bagder runs away
19:13:42Tangi heard zagior ordered 3 i thought it was for some Rckbx memebers
19:14:05Tangi don't realyy understand how the projetc work
19:14:45Tangis there a wiki page about the reockbox organisation for exemple
19:15:21Tangi'm just curious about how you cn coordinate so much members work
19:24:46 Nick gromit` is now known as gromit`faraway (gromit@
19:26:19Tangi've to go bye :)
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22:46:00billykHi. Wondering if someone could help me out. I opened up my Rockbox because acording to the Rock Box website, I think I'm having the JBR V1 connector problem since I only get 2 hours of life out of it
22:46:09billykOpened my Archos JBR.
22:46:53billykOne one side, I have the connectors as described on the RockBox website. On the other side, I don't. Should the connectors be on both sides?
22:55:01 Join Headie [0] (
22:58:47billykAnyone know if the archos JBR V1 should have the battery connector wire on both sides of the baateries?
23:00:10 Join [IDC]Dragon [0] (
23:36:45 Quit Stryke` (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))

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