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#rockbox log for 2004-12-23

00:00:03Zagorsure. anything in particular you're thinking about?
00:00:16gromit`not for the moment
00:00:29gromit`we have the choice between a linux and a port of rockbox
00:00:45gromit`but our last discussion was about rockbox
00:03:44Zagorin my opinion, linux brings too much baggage unless you need complex stuff like networking or a usb host
00:04:08 Join Dulcise [0] (
00:04:20Zagorbut I guess my opinion is rather predictable in this topic :-)
00:05:07gromit`but there are 99% chances that we'll port rockbox
00:05:26Bagderit would be really cool
00:05:44gromit`would be a solid basis for us :)
00:06:09Bagderdoes the gmini use a MAS for mpeg playback?
00:06:22Bagdermp3 I mean
00:06:25 Quit Dulcise (Client Quit)
00:06:33gromit`hmm dunno exactly... w8
00:06:55amiconnZagor: I got an answer from the guy with the reboot-instead-of-shutdown problem with flashed rockbox.
00:07:14 Join jyp [0] (
00:07:26Zagoramiconn: ok, was it a player or a recorder?
00:07:54JJ-Demonhi jyp
00:08:05gromit`[00:04] <Bagder> does the gmini use a MAS for mpeg playback?
00:08:05gromit`[00:05] <Bagder> mp3 I mean
00:08:08jyphey all
00:08:19jypWhat's MAS ?
00:08:26gromit`same question...
00:08:26Zagormp3 decoder chip
00:08:35amiconnBagder: (gmini & mas) Iirc it doesn't
00:08:45jypIt is decoded in software
00:08:45 Join Dulcise [0] (
00:09:20Bagderso we'll have the same situation for gmini and iRiver then
00:09:37JJ-Demontoo bad no one is interested int he 400 :(
00:09:43JJ-Demonprobly too much work i guess
00:09:54 Quit Stryke` ("Friends don't let friends listen to Anti-Flag")
00:09:57ZagorJJ-Demon: too little docs. those texas chips are top secret stuff.
00:10:01gromit`JJ-Demon: maybe few gmini400
00:10:03gromit`for the mment
00:10:19Bagdertime to sleep
00:10:26jypWe get quite a lot of gmini 400 requests on #gmemu and on the forum
00:10:46JJ-Demonill have to learn to code;)
00:10:46Zagori can imagine. but it's an entirely different device. much more in common with the multimedias.
00:10:58gromit`nite badger
00:11:22amiconnZagor: It's a really strange problem. Sometimes the player reboots instead of shutdown, and it takes up to 7 tries to shut down. Another time it shuts down with the first try
00:11:23JJ-Demoni suppose photos of the chips and stuff wouldnt help? and all the numbers
00:11:31gromit`neither arm nor calmrisc ?
00:11:53ZagorJJ-Demon: it's always a start
00:12:03jypTaking photos is probably the 1st thing to do ;)
00:12:10JJ-Demonhmm ok, i think ill take soem pics then
00:12:15jypThen try to gather docs for them
00:12:19JJ-Demoni gota remove some dust under my screen
00:12:20gromit`then gather firmwares
00:12:29JJ-Demonill do it when im doing that
00:13:00ZagorJJ-Demon: if you have access to a flat-bed scanner, that's the ideal way to make board images
00:13:07amiconnZagor: The version number he told (5.02, not sure yet whether this is ROM or archos fw, but these are closely related) suggests that it is a newplayer. I requested some further details, let's see
00:13:43Zagoramiconn: ok
00:15:15amiconnI have a vague idea what might cause this, though if this idea is the real cause, I wonder why we didn't observe it on any other archos unit yet:
00:18:57jypLet's say we port rockbox to gmini...
00:19:12amiconnSomehow the shutdown sequence might cause an NMI, or a reset (due to an uninitialized port??)
00:19:16jypWhat version shall we take as a starting point ?
00:20:20Zagorgrab the daily tarball. later is practically always better.
00:21:21Zagoramiconn: what does it look like when it won't turn off? is backlight and screen on? text still showing?
00:22:18amiconnHe didn't tell this (yet). He said that it starts the shutdown sequence, and he uses the safe shutdown from the menu
00:23:03***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:23:13Zagoraha, he uses safe shutdown? is it only that which fails or won't it turn off even when holding the button?
00:23:59 Join Digital007 [0] (
00:24:52amiconnZagor: Neverending questions... He didn't tell this detail as well. I also ahd some more questions, which are already on the way... e.g. whether this problem existed before flashing
00:26:16Zagorok. well it's good that we have contact at least. i have a faint recollection of there being something fishy with the poweroff circuit on the players. can't remember what it was though.
00:27:16Digital007damn those ipod users
00:27:43ZagorDigital007: ?
00:27:47amiconnZagor: Well, we're pulling the circuit with the button input pin switched to output. Maybe the pull is not strong enough, or long enough. (I guess the cpu will no longer pull when the voltage gets too low)
00:28:06Digital007found a workaround for the iriver shufflebug
00:28:28 Quit gromit` (Remote closed the connection)
00:30:52Digital007got a sneer from an ipod user on the train as i was using my iriver
00:31:47Zagorso then you asked to see his remote?
00:31:58jypipod = gaayyyy
00:32:17Digital007no i didn't
00:32:20 Join gromit` [0] (~gromit`
00:32:22Digital007why would i wanna see his remote for?
00:32:32Zagorbecause it's lousy :)
00:32:41Digital007yea the iriver remote is pretty good
00:33:04JJ-Demonlol i got a case for my gmini 400 at an ipod store, the guys there couldnt belive it played video
00:33:08Digital007Zagor would iriver-rockbox have proper shuffle when its finally implemented?
00:33:45ZagorDigital007: yes, we've had good shuffle for years
00:34:06Digital007its just that the iriver does not have a clock, so i wondered if shuffle for it was possible
00:34:29Zagorand we're rather proud of the fact that we even can resume shuffled playlists in the same order
00:34:47Digital007iriver firmware plays the same songs in the same order when shuffle is on
00:34:51Zagorclock has nothing to do with it. only some archos models have clock as well.
00:34:53Digital007just hope rockbox doesn't do that
00:36:06Zagorthere's plenty of entropy elsewhere besides the clock. such as when you press the play button. humans are pretty random :)
00:36:06amiconnDigital007: I still wonder why the iriver owners relate a working shuffle to the existence of a clock. In fact, 3 of the 6 archos models that currently run rockbox don't have a clock, and they all have the same, excellent shuffle
00:36:21Digital007well its what i read on the misticriver site
00:37:03Digital007A crossfader should be possible as the decoding is software on the iriver
00:37:46Dulciseamiconn: it could be because the random function is sometimes based on the computers clock
00:38:56amiconnYes, *sometimes* the random seed is taken from the clock... but as Zagor said, there are plenty of other entropy sources
00:39:51Dulcisejust out of interest, what like?
00:40:03Digital007random number generator?
00:40:35DBUGSent KICK JJ-Demon to server
00:40:35*JJ-Demon is AFK, on another planet —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n—
00:40:36Kick(#rockbox JJ-Demon :Colourcodes are *not* appreciated here!) by logbot!
00:40:37 Join JJ-Demon [0] (
00:40:59Dulcisecan you use a random number genenerator without a random seed?
00:41:15jypof course
00:41:32ZagorDulcise: we use the clock tick when you start the playlist. it varies every time.
00:42:16Digital007so Zagor on the iriver how you vary the playlist every time play is pressed if there is no clock?
00:42:29Zagorthere is a clock, just no realtime clock
00:42:41Zagorall computers have internal clocks that start from 0 on powerup
00:42:42Digital007so it is still possible?
00:42:45amiconnOther possibilities would be the time between 2 keypresses, the duration of a keypress...
00:42:57Zagoror battery level, disk spinup time etc etc
00:43:10amiconnDigital007: Yes, definitely
00:43:19Digital007can't wait for iriverbox
00:43:40Dulcisesame :P:)
00:43:40zeoh :p
00:43:59amiconnEven my very first computer (a Sinclair ZX Spectrum) had this runtime counter, and guess what - it could be used for the random seed
00:44:35Digital007the ZX Spectrum was ok as an upgrade from a calculator.....
00:45:04Dulciseisn't it also used in the fsb, for when to send the command or something
00:45:14Dulciseto the cpu
00:45:24Digital007the MAS is obselete these days
00:46:55Digital007as in the archos
00:46:57Digital007hardware decoder
00:47:03Digital007and hardware bass/treble/loudeness
00:47:49Dulciseaaah, is thats why flac etc. can't be added to the archos
00:48:01Digital007iriver is software driven
00:48:24Digital007so you could add any codec u want to it if u wished
00:49:04Zagor...and you bet people will ask for any codec you can think of :)
00:49:36Digital007MP3Pro would be a good start
00:49:57Dulciseno one uses mp3pro anymore...
00:50:47Dulcisei'm happy with just the ones that are already supported by the h1xx
00:51:06Zagorwell we won't support wma of course
00:51:36 Nick JJ-Demon is now known as JJ-Away (
00:51:43Dulciseperhaps a long time in the future others, flac etc.
00:51:43DulciseZagor: why not?
00:52:13Dulcisei know you its not possible to do protected ones
00:52:27Dulcise*they shouldn't be a you in there...
00:54:45Zagorbecause ot
00:55:04Zagorit's a locked-down proprietary format that we aren't even allowed to implement without paying Microsoft
00:56:30Dulcisethat sucks, i don't know why companys make proprietary formats, they must lock themselfs out of quite a bit of the market
00:56:59Zagorthe idea, especially if you have a monopoly, is to lock customers into the market
00:57:30Dulcisei guess
00:57:57 Join pvh [0] (
00:58:08gromit`have you seen how microsoft told its customers about bbypassing itunes drm ?
00:58:22gromit`burning a cd
00:58:32gromit`then they removed the tip from their website :)
00:58:51pvhAfter my latest solder-job to reattach the end board, my rockbox powers on then powers off right after.
00:59:03pvhIf I hold the on button on, it stays on.
00:59:37pvhAnyone have any ideas?
00:59:38Zagorpvh: which model is it?
00:59:43Dulcisei wonder if you can bypass wma protections in a similar maner...
01:00:03gromit`ya :)
01:00:07ZagorDulcise: of course you can
01:00:09pvhRecorder V1
01:00:18gromit`that's why they removed the tip :)
01:00:29gromit`dumbass <- microsoft
01:00:51jypIn theory we can do any format; just don't infringe on patents
01:01:15gromit`then release the patented format with bittorent
01:01:18gromit`hrm no...
01:01:20gromit`not anymore
01:02:22jypThat would be interesting to implement WMA... I'm not sure they'd have anything against us.
01:02:46gromit`wma is crap :)
01:03:00jypI don't know ;)
01:03:09gromit`why not .mov
01:03:30Dulcisewell.. if you did your own implimentation is it infiringing at all?
01:04:00Dulcisewait a min, ignore last thing i said
01:05:45amiconnZagor: I just found a very interesting routine in the archos player disassembly when checking how they do the player poweroff
01:06:41amiconnThere is the (very slight) chance that the charger gets plugged while the powerdown loop is running, but the box did not yet powerdown completely
01:07:04amiconnWe do not handle this case in rockbox, so this will cause a deadlock
01:07:34amiconnArchos activates the watchdog timer in this case, causing a reset after ~100 ms
01:08:03pvhIs there any way to force rombox to boot from the AC Charging screen??
01:08:15amiconnJust press on
01:08:27pvhDoesn't work.
01:08:51pvhMust be my build, which is a couple months old now.
01:09:21amiconnWorks for me, both on the recorder V1 and the player. It only boots after releasing the button again
01:10:07pvhWill 'box boot without the .rockbox folder?
01:10:34amiconnIt will complain about the missing .rockbox folder of course
01:10:39pvhThat's not it then
01:24:28amiconnZagor: In fact it's very easy to deadlock rockbox, I just tried it with the recorder. Start safe shutdown, and while it displays the "Shutting down" message, plug in the charger...
01:24:53Zagoryou just need to know the trick :)
01:28:16amiconnSame trick does also work for the player
01:30:38amiconnBtw, is there a reason why the power_off() disables the backlight for the player, but not for the recorder models?
01:33:01amiconnI guess this has to do with the backlight being connected to the rtc, and the "direct switch" functions being internal to backlight.c ... but this could be changed (?)
01:33:06pvhIs it possible that my problem is caused by lousy soldering? I would think that as long as I had soldered at least one point on each side it would work.
01:34:15Zagoramiconn: there is no (good) reason for that. the recorder should do the same imho.
01:37:57amiconnThe "official" backlight_off() function does only post an event to the backlight queue, which wouldn't help here
01:38:36 Quit mecraw_ ("Trillian (")
01:42:16 Nick JJ-Away is now known as JJ-Demon (
01:42:33Quelsaruktime to go
01:42:38Quelsarukgoood night
01:42:49 Quit Quelsaruk ("KVIrc 'System Virtue'")
01:43:38amiconnI think I'll follow that example
01:43:44amiconnNite everyone
01:43:56 Part amiconn
01:44:02jyptoo ;)
01:44:05 Quit jyp ("Leaving")
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01:59:36Zagorbed time
01:59:41 Quit Zagor ("Client exiting")
02:23:05***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
02:31:15 Quit Digital007 ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
02:44:15 Join PnkyChkn [0] (
02:45:28PnkyChknI'm looking for some knowledgeable folk to give me a hand with a problem I'm having with my Studio 20.
02:45:39PnkyChknCan you guys help at all?
02:46:47midkdepends, what is the problem?
02:47:05PnkyChknok, here's what happened
02:48:29PnkyChknAbout a month ago I was walking back from class with the player in my pocket. I took it out to turn it off, and it turned off and gave me an HD error. I tried to start it up again, and it got stuck on the "Jukebox Ver 5.xx" screen for a while, then gave me a file sys error.
02:48:54PnkyChknI just changed the batteries, and it's still doing the same thing
02:49:08PnkyChknand I've taken it apart to check if it was the battery connectors, but they're fine.
02:49:21PnkyChknbut I'm still having the same problem.
02:49:55midkcan you connect to usb?
02:50:01midk(to a pc, via usb)
02:50:17PnkyChknThe PC won't recognize the hardware. The player goes into USB mode, but the comp doesn't recognize it.
02:51:30midkwon't boot, pc won't recognize it?
02:53:07midkhold on
02:53:17PnkyChknok, thanks
02:56:05midkyou changed the batteries -> were they full (or at least 50% charged)?
02:57:11PnkyChknThey'd been charging for about 3, 3 and a half hours.
02:57:40PnkyChknso I should try again when they're more fully charged?
02:57:56midkthey should probably be working now..
02:58:20midkbut it seems that people with this error were able to usb to a pc fine, could you double check that if you didn't?
02:58:54PnkyChknI did
02:58:58PnkyChkndouble check it I mean
02:59:22midkweird, sorry, i can't help
02:59:25PnkyChknI AM however using a driver that wasn't from the CD...found it on the internet
02:59:28PnkyChkncould that be it?
02:59:32PnkyChkn(my computer crashed and I lost the install CD)
02:59:37midkhas it connected to usb before?
02:59:52midksince you installed the new driver?
03:00:03midkprobably not then
03:00:13PnkyChknwell, thanks anyway
03:00:27PnkyChknthere was one other thing, now that I think about it.
03:01:18PnkyChknWhen I took it apart to check the battery connectors, one of the battery springs (the part of the connector that the - end of the battery connects to) had a weird wire restricting the spring
03:02:23PnkyChknI took it out because my electronics-knowledgeable friend told me that he didn't think it was supposed to be there and wasn't important, but could this be why I'm having trouble? I was still getting the same error before I took it out, but....
03:02:52PnkyChknI tried this before I got new batteries (because I had to wait till I got home from college to be near a store that sold NiMH batteries)
03:03:46midkhere's a studio scan..
03:05:18midkdon't see anything like it though
03:05:48midki've still got no idea.. maybe if you come back later or tomorrow you'll run into LinusN who could likely help you
03:06:05midk[idc]dragon or amiconn may also be helpful
03:06:57PnkyChknany idea what time they can usually be found?
03:07:25midkamiconn left about 1h45m ago
03:07:36midkyou may want to try tomorrow about 3h earlier if you can
03:08:11PnkyChknthanks so much for all the help
03:08:21midkno problem, good luck!
03:08:39PnkyChknbe back tomorrow then. Later
03:08:44 Part PnkyChkn
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09:06:19 Join Zagor [242] (
09:08:09Zagori've changed my mind about rushing 2.4 out the door. there's only very little changes from 2.3. most of our work has been for the new hardware support.
09:13:14amiconnImho some of the bug fixes would justify a new release.
09:13:31amiconnThere was that file caching bug for writing in 2.3, which wears the flash unnecessarily and makes it slow as hell on Ondio when e.g. saving configs
09:14:08Zagoryes, that is one of the five changes i found and listed in my preliminary notes
09:14:13amiconnThen 2.3 does not support all Ondio hardware versions yet. Some users already ran into that problem
09:14:51Zagori'm not saying we shouldn't release, just that a pre-christmas rush job is not necessary
09:15:54 Join amiconn_ [0] (
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09:16:20Zagoron the other hand I have the release done already so release is simply a matter of sending a mail. hmm...
09:16:36Zagori feel your pain :(
09:16:43amiconnAnother improvement (way less significant though) is the Ondio keyboard
09:19:00amiconnOn the other hand, it would be good to get some things straight before a new release... the recording beep is one such thing
09:19:20amiconnThe current implementation definitely disturbs prerecording.
09:19:31Zagoryes. but the code I packaged does not include that
09:20:29amiconnI experimented a bit yesterday. When I only toggle coded reg. 0 bit 0, it still beeps even without an input signal, and it does not disturb prerecording. But the beep gets even more faint...
09:21:09Zagoras in hard to hear faint, or just not very strong?
09:23:16amiconnWell, you can hear it in a quiet environment (and it gets louder if there is an input signal, but it may be hard to hear in a noisy environment
09:24:44Zagorit's clear we need more experiments and input from the blind users
09:24:53amiconnAll other "beep methods" do only beep when there is an input signal, and then are about the same strength
09:33:34amiconnIirc, the 74 and 80 minute time split settings are already present in 2.3. The remote control should also work in 2.3, it was broken afterwards, and then fixed again.
09:34:20Zagorno the split was added after 2.3. i base the notes on the cvs log
09:34:48Zagorthe remote is probably right though, it was only temporarily broken post-2.3
09:35:30amiconnremote was broken on Nov 18 (by Linus adding the iRiver code) and then fixed again on Nov 25
09:36:04 Quit einhirn (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
09:36:38Zagori meant that your remark about the remote was right
09:38:18amiconnYou're right about the time split. That means the 2.3 manual is incorrect about that...
09:38:49Zagoraha. another reason to release then :)
09:40:09amiconnThen there is flash for the players (although there still seem to be some quirks)
09:41:02Zagoryes I don't want to announce that as released until we've had more testing
09:41:19amiconn..and still nobody tried it on an oldplayer.. :(
09:50:04amiconnZagor: Didn't you offer to send your oldplayer?
09:50:26amiconnIf this was a serious offer, I'd ask [IDC]Dragon if he still has a spare flash rom, and would solder this in.
09:50:51Zagorsure, we could do that. i hardly ever use it anyway, only for testing once in a blue moon
09:54:36amiconnOkay. If Jörg is willing to do that, you could send your player to me first. I would do the uart boot mod and do some tests first. Jörg doesn't dare to do the uart boot mod for players, as he seems to have killed a player by doing it... If this works, I'd send the cpu board to Jörg, who would then swap the ROM and send it back to me. I would flash it, and do some more tests
09:55:31Zagor"who will win. rockbox or 1.70 firmware. i hope to God its rockbox." −− user forum
10:23:15***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
10:32:30amiconn(away now)
10:46:30 Join [IDC]Dragon [0] (
11:06:37 Join einhirn [0] (
11:22:53 Join Quelsaruk [0] (~kvirc@
11:38:51[IDC]DragonZagor: do you read?
11:40:53[IDC]Dragonowever, saw your chat with Jens
11:41:41[IDC]DragonI'm in favour of a "small" relaese, call it 2.31 if you like
11:41:52 Join Digital007 [0] (
11:42:23Digital007Does anyone have one of those iSkin iriver protectors?
11:43:33Zagor[IDC]Dragon: i think 2.4 is fine. 2.31 will most likely confuse more than help
11:43:58Quelsarukbtw, morning :)
11:44:36[IDC]Dragonmy reasoning is that a "scheduled" release won't hurt, especially before we change it big time
11:44:48 Quit Quelsaruk (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
11:45:18 Join |Quelsar| [0] (~kvirc@
11:45:25[IDC]Dragonwith ID browsing and/or multivolume
11:45:31 Nick |Quelsar| is now known as Quelsaruk (~kvirc@
11:46:01[IDC]Dragonit may be unstable for a while then
11:46:36Zagoryes, i agree. i'll release after lunch.
11:46:36 Quit MooMaunder (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
11:47:51[IDC]Dragonrecording beep is not in yet, you said
11:48:17[IDC]Dragonor should we disable it for prerecording but include it?
11:48:49[IDC]Dragonwould be nice for the blind chaps
11:49:03Zagori think we should test more first
11:49:07[IDC]Dragonelse they just missed it in this realese
11:49:45[IDC]Dragonat least it's not "harmful" then
11:50:38Zagorthere's also the issue about releasing things that we might change. i prefer to test it in the dailies for a few weeks first.
11:51:23[IDC]Dragonlike, having a branch before a release?
11:51:37[IDC]Dragonor a freeze?
11:51:56Zagorwe've usually done it with freezes, but a branch works too if we don't want to freeze
11:52:25Zagoralso functions can be tested without freezing, just by being in the dailies and having people try them
12:19:27 Join Tang [0] (
12:19:42Tanghello guys :)
12:20:04Tang09.55.31 # <Zagor> "who will win. rockbox or 1.70 firmware. i hope to God its rockbox." −− user forum
12:20:43TangLOL! I have no real doubt you can win agianst iRiver firmware section....
12:23:18***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
12:35:00Zagorhi tang
12:35:09TangHi Zagor
12:36:00Tanghappy christmas for tomorrow :)
12:44:14 Join |Quelsar| [0] (~kvirc@
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12:44:31|Quelsar|f***ing drivers...
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12:58:56quelsarukcu l8r!
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13:03:08***SPY: Authentication failed for Zagor
13:03:26Mode"#rockbox +o Zagor " by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
13:03:45Topic"Rockbox 2.4 released - Merry Christmas!" by Zagor (
13:04:03Mode"#rockbox -o Zagor " by Zagor (
13:23:54Hadakawoo, rockbox 2.4!
13:26:34 Join Christi-S [0] (
13:26:40Zagorwoo, Hadaka awake :)
13:26:46Zagorhi christi
13:27:09Christi-SWho do I kill for releasing 2.4 just after I get the 2.3 manual done. ;)
13:27:15Zagorme :)
13:27:27Christi-SConsider yourself killed.
13:27:28Zagorseriously, very little has changed that affects the manual
13:27:38*Christi-S nods.
13:27:38Hadakathis has probably been asked here every now and then, but have you considered doing anything about Neuros?
13:28:01ZagorHadaka: not while the compiler costs $6000
13:28:05[IDC]DragonChristi-S: do a search-and replace 2.3 -> 2.4 ;-)
13:28:15Hadakaunderstandable :)
13:28:16Christi-SI have to do a manual update anyway. I have to use a Type 1 rather than a Truetype font for the PDF to be searchable.
13:28:57Christi-SIDC - there's a couple of new features though (recording beeps etc.) - might as well try to get them added.
13:29:07[IDC]Dragonno beep yet
13:29:08Zagorthe beeps are not in 2.4
13:29:21Christi-SOh, right. So what is that I need to know about?
13:29:34[IDC]DragonOndio keyboard screen
13:29:47Hadakaoh and, I remember hearing something about S/PDIF recording being broken at some point - does that work with 2.4?
13:30:11Christi-SSince that's not documented yet, I don't have to worry about that.
13:30:16ZagorHadaka: that has never been cleared out. it works for lots of people, but one or a few have had problems.
13:30:34[IDC]Dragonand more Ondio in general...
13:30:52Hadakaright, well I'll have to test that myself then
13:30:55Christi-SThat it?
13:31:07[IDC]Dragonafaict, yes
13:31:19ZagorChristi-S: there are two new timesplit options: 74 and 80 minutes
13:31:29Zagori don't remember if you list all options
13:31:42Zagorfor time split recording
13:32:04Christi-SThey're actually already documented - wasn't in the early drafts, but amiconn is a wonderfully thorough proofreader. ;)
13:32:58Christi-SLooks like I don't have to kill you after all, since I was going to release a new manual anyway. ;)
13:33:20Christi-SToo late now though. Ah well, these things happen.
13:33:26[IDC]Dragon2.5 will be the killer then
13:33:44*Zagor rises from the ashes
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13:34:01Christi-SNeat trick!
13:34:28[IDC]DragonI have to try vintage versions of Rockbox. 1.4 was one when I started
13:34:29Christi-SI'm hoping to get a few more volunteers helping out on the manual. Realistically it's a bigger job than 1 person can handle.
13:35:15Zagoryes. I and linus discussed setting up a system on the web site where people can upload their modified sxw files and we'll make diffs from them
13:36:22Christi-SWell, I've said to submit them as patches for the time being, since we already have a mechanism for that.
13:36:52Zagoryes, but it's heavy work finding out what was changed
13:36:55[IDC]Dragonis sxw diff-able ASCII?
13:36:56Christi-SAs long as an author starts from a previous reach, editing it in should be fairly easy.
13:37:10Christi-SOpenOffice has versioning support.
13:37:11Zagor[IDC]Dragon: it's xml in a zip
13:37:28ZagorChristi-S: aha, well ok never mind me then :-)
13:37:31[IDC]Dragonxml would be diff-able
13:37:34Christi-SStart a new version and then I get to decide whether to accept any changes or not.
13:37:44Christi-SIt's moderately nifty.
13:37:49Christi-S(Assuming it works.)
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13:41:16Christi-SOooh. I just typed "release" as "reach"
13:41:22Christi-SI need more sleep.
13:41:41Christi-S2.4 manual willl probably be out tonight then.
13:41:58Christi-SI need to check that changing the font hasn't mucked up the formatting.
13:42:24Christi-SBut PDFs you can actually search through are a good idea.
13:44:55gromit`noteyou can use .tex and cvs
13:45:08gromit`with each part in a separate file
13:45:31Zagoryes, but tex has a rather steep learning curve
13:45:41Christi-SThe effort of moving away from OO wouldn't be worth it.
13:45:46Christi-SSo does OO.
13:46:03gromit`you have editors if you wanna simplify the task
13:46:07gromit`such as lyx
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13:46:19gromit`and i think it is possible to convert existing files
13:46:28Christi-S(It might have been before I bashed the 2.3 manual into shape,)
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13:46:39Zagori actually don't have strong opinions about which tools to use. (s)he who does the work selects the tools.
13:47:05Christi-SIf I were starting from scratch, I'd probably use LaTeX.
13:47:08Christi-SBut I'm not.
13:47:27gromit`you can convert
13:47:46Christi-SNo thanks. I have enough pain in my life.
13:48:05gromit`as you want :)
13:48:53Christi-SI've never found a text processing system I like. They all (TeX included) have their own idiocies.
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13:49:19Christi-SSince I understand OOs idiocies better than the rest, I'm sticking with the devil I know.
13:49:24gromit`the main advantage of tex is that maintaining is easier
13:49:40gromit`since it is plain text
13:49:54gromit`and it is cross platform
13:50:06Christi-SMaintaining in OO is not particularly difficult. It just involves shipping a lot of unnecessary data about.
13:50:21gromit`and good looking
13:52:39Christi-SThinking about it, you could actually keep OO files in CVS since they're just compressed XML.
13:53:19Christi-SAll you'd need is a couple of wrapper scripts to decompress on checkin, compress on checkout.
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13:55:19Zagorgotta go. see you later.
13:55:20 Part Zagor
13:57:26gromit`it is overkill
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14:00:31Christi-SJust out of curiosity, have you seen the Rockbox manual, gromit?
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14:04:10amiconnHi [IDC]Dragon
14:04:45Christi-SHi Jens
14:04:54[IDC]DragonHi there
14:05:06[IDC]Dragonback from last-minute shopping?
14:06:21amiconnBack from shopping, yes.
14:06:44[IDC]Dragonok, last-minute is tomorrow ;-)
14:07:03amiconnYou said you read the backlog. Do you still have a spare flash chip for Zagor's player?
14:07:40[IDC]DragonI do, yes (but only the 512kB one)
14:07:59[IDC]DragonLinus should have a couple of the smaller
14:08:32amiconnHow many player rombox images would fit in 512K?!
14:08:34[IDC]Dragonand Linus has the Really Old Player, right?
14:08:50[IDC]Dragonperhaps they should swap, temporarily
14:09:05amiconnyup. Linus apparently has the very first hardware version, without hd power control
14:10:16[IDC]Dragonor approach Linus to send Player and chip...
14:10:25amiconnThe main thing I want to check is whether the oldlcd init works, however, if Linus also has the smaller roms, but no time to do it, he could send his player instead, together with a chip
14:12:03amiconnDid you read about my findings how easy it is to deadlock rockbox at shutdown?
14:13:45[IDC]Dragonwith the charger?
14:14:22[IDC]Dragonsaw that, but didn't try to understand
14:15:45amiconnIt's relatively simple: The shutdown sequence (on player and rec v1) switches the STOP resp. OFF button input pins to output and pulls them, then enters an endless loop
14:16:28[IDC]Dragonand the charger makes it really endless...
14:16:37amiconnThe hardware poweroff then powers off the box after ~2 sec. If you plug the charger in the meantime, the box can't power off, and rockbox is trapped in that loop
14:17:12[IDC]Dragonso you want to restart?
14:17:28amiconnArchos uses a nice trick to overcome this: They observe the charger status within that loop, and if they detect that the charger was plugged, they initialize the watchdog timer
14:17:51[IDC]Dragonto get such a restart, I guess
14:18:14amiconnThe watchdog timer is not catered afterwards, so it does a manual reset after ~100 ms (the maximum timeout possible, programmed by the init)
14:18:29[IDC]Dragoneasy fix then
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14:19:47amiconnWell, for the player it is really easy, because the charger detection is a port pin, but for recorder v1 it is a bit more difficult, since charger detection is on analog in
14:20:42amiconnInterrupts are disabled for the loop, so using the analog values won't work. Archos uses port C with heavy filtering (against glitches)
14:21:21[IDC]Dragonoh, somebody spent a lot of dedication to that exotic situation
14:22:17amiconnI found this when I checked how archos does the poweroff, for investigating that strange reboot-instead-of-shutdown problem with a flashed player
14:22:31[IDC]Dragonhow about a simple timeout in the loop?
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14:24:26amiconnHmm. While this would work, imho it would need a large safety margin, say 5 seconds.
14:28:08amiconnThe reboot would then take place only after this timeout. However, imho it is not necessary to use the watchdog. There is a system_reboot() function already
14:30:31amiconnYou probably read about my beep experiments. What do you think? Should I commit the (noticeably quieter, but non-disturbing to prerecording) beep?
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14:39:30[IDC]DragonI haven't listened to it
14:40:25[IDC]Dragonso it's rather up to you to decide
14:41:26[IDC]DragonI definitely don't like it the way it is now, either no beep while prerecording, or a different beep
14:44:27amiconnMy modified beep does only toggle reg. 0 bit 0, which switches the DAC off & on. All other methods I tried don't beep if there is no input signal. Switching the main volume does never beep, as expected.
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14:48:37amiconn[IDC]Dragon:"> . Perhaps try it, and commit it if you want. Gotta go now.
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15:29:31CassandraHas anyone got a recent copy of fontforge of xmbdfed on their machine. I have a font I'd like to donate to rockbox but it's in PSF (Linux console) format, so I'd need to convert it to bdf first.
15:29:33CassandraMy debian install doesn't seem to have anything capable of doing this. Bleh.
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19:16:06basti^berlinhope somebody can help me
19:17:57midkwhat's the problem?
19:18:12basti^berlini cant edit recorded files
19:18:28midkon a pc?
19:18:30basti^berlinwith a length over 5 h
19:18:41basti^berlinthe header isnt correct
19:18:51midkin menu->recording->recording settings is "independent frames" set to Yes?
19:19:50midktry it, it was once called something like "Editable Frames" -> may help your problem
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19:20:08midkwhen i asked about it, Linus said it had to do with editing the files
19:20:15basti^berlinok it will maybe work for the next record
19:20:28midkyes, hopefully
19:20:34basti^berlinbut what shall i do with the set i recorded
19:20:49midkone thing you could try...
19:21:12basti^berlincool edit says that its about 24 minutes
19:21:18midklocate one in the browser, hold PLAY and press open with... and from the list use vbrfix
19:21:28basti^berlinwinamp displays it with 350 min
19:21:55basti^berlintried this with version 2.1 of rockbox
19:22:02basti^berlinand nothing changed
19:23:01basti^berlinfile is 430mb
19:23:22midknot sure then, sorry
19:23:44basti^berlinmaybe i can open it with wavelap
19:24:14basti^berlinbut why does winamp ignores header errors and plays it
19:24:29basti^berlinand edit software doesn´t ?
19:26:39midkno idea in the world
19:27:36midkgotta go, be back later
19:27:38midkgood luck with that
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20:28:18QuelsarukBagder: i have a stupid question
20:28:45Quelsarukif i've installed right how bleeding edge firmware and rocks...
20:29:16Quelsarukrocks should work.. isn't it?
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21:57:22pvhI'm having trouble with a V1 Recorder repair. I had to resolder the power-connector end board, and now when I power up, I see the "ATA panic -11" error message for about half a second and then power is lost.
21:57:44pvhIf I plug into the charger, I can see that the batteries are feeding about 4.3V, so it's not a lack of power.
21:57:51pvhThis is without a hard drive installed, by the way.
21:58:00pvhCan anyone help me understand what may be going wrong?
21:58:52Quelsarukinstall the hd
21:59:17Quelsarukwhen you plug, the firmware tries to boot the hd
21:59:35Quelsarukso i suppose that if it doesn't find a hd.. it crashes
21:59:50Quelsaruknot a technical answer.. but seems logic to me :)
22:00:16pvhWith the HDD installed I just see the rockbox logo for an instant before it powers down.
22:00:27pvhI can make either message stay on by holding down the ON button.
22:01:01pvhI was a bit worried that it was a problem with the disc that was giving me grief (the disc was pulled from somewhere else after my last drive ingested some sand).
22:02:08Quelsaruki don't really know
22:03:07QuelsarukBagder: here?
22:03:11Quelsaruki think he may know
22:04:27pvhI really can't afford to replace, and I can barely stand to go on without.
22:04:38pvhStudent life. :)
22:05:24Quelsaruki know that life
22:06:00Quelsarukhow did your last drive eat sand?
22:06:45pvhWell, I can't be entirely certain, but there was a spec of sand just inside the hole marked "do not cover".
22:07:02pvhI can only assume that over the years a little bit of sand found its way from some pocket into the enclosure.
22:07:10pvhAnd from there into the tiny intake hole.
22:07:20pvhAnd then there was the screeching and the squealing of disc.
22:07:23Quelsarukthat's bad luck
22:07:46pvhYeah, it was a lousy month.
22:07:59pvhLaptop died, PC hdd died and mp3 player died. And my glasses broke.
22:08:27Quelsarukdidn't you pick the laptop hd?
22:08:45Quelsarukthat's always a good option
22:08:51pvhFortunately, the laptop fixed itself (despite the repair shop claiming it was a doorstop), the PC drive was mostly recoverable (with help from the freezer) and the MP3 player is now getting the old laptop drive.
22:09:07pvhOh, and the glasses got fixed for free.
22:09:37Quelsarukand that's a lousy month? ;)
22:09:46Quelsarukhope you repair your jukebox
22:09:49Quelsaruktime to go
22:09:52Quelsarukdinner time :)
22:09:58pvhSee, it's strange because when I first soldered it, it would stay on and let me view the debug menu.
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22:10:35pvhAh, sweet sweet crashing.
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22:26:36pvh_I didn't miss anything, did I?
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22:35:09BagderQuel|away: rocks should work yes, if you installed the whole package
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22:47:01QuelsarukBagder: i installed the Bleeding edge package, the ajz and rocks
22:47:16Bagdersp what happens when you play a rock?
22:48:05QuelsarukIncompatible version
22:48:28Quelsaruki tried to "play" an image file with my archos recorder v2
22:48:36Bagderhave you flashed your unit?
22:48:48Quelsaruknot yet
22:48:59Quelsaruk10 days of guarantee left
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22:49:28Quelsarukin 10 days i'll have my box flashed again
22:49:38Quelsarukand rockbox will boot really fast
22:52:26Quelsarukany idea about the issue?
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22:52:50Quelsarukthe bounce rock works
22:53:05Quelsarukthe calculator also works..
22:53:06Bagderit sounds like the update somehow is bad
22:53:25Quelsarukseems to be a problem with the jpeg viewer
22:53:46Quelsaruktried clockbox right now and also works
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22:56:58quelsarukdamned drivers
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22:59:41quelsarukhi midk
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23:04:13quelsarukhi Myx
23:05:00Myxi have one question , when i visit your website i have the impression nyou can make an iriver firmware , it's right ? it's on good way ? Sorry for my english ;)
23:06:27MyxBagder and quelsaruk one idea ? :/
23:06:30Bagderwe are working on that, yes
23:07:05quelsarukBagder is the man.. he has all the answers
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23:07:42Bagderthat's the wiki page with all the info
23:08:18MyxBagder: thanks, where are you ? you are avaible to start write code or you haven't understand iriver if you understand what i want to say
23:08:34Myx... iriver hardware, crypt
23:08:43Bagderthat page describes the situation
23:08:47Bagderwe know all the circuts
23:08:49Bagderwe can write code
23:08:54Bagderwe have many drivers
23:08:59quelsarukthey can flash it
23:09:05Bagderthat too
23:09:23Bagderand read the disk and use the LCD
23:09:51Myxthank you, so it's a very good start
23:10:00Myxgood luck !
23:10:25Bagdermost of all this is all thanks to Linus
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23:17:21PnkyChknhi, anybody around?
23:17:35 Quit Myx ("CGI:IRC")
23:18:11PnkyChknhi there......I'm having a bit of an issue with my studio 20...I was in here talking with midk about it yesterday, and I stumped him...
23:18:30midkoh, hey :)
23:18:33PnkyChknhe said to come back about this time and I might find more knowledgeable people
23:18:35midkgoing to play q3, bbs
23:19:02Bagderso try me :-)
23:20:05PnkyChknI can't get past the "Jukebox Version x.xx" screen on my player. I've recharged the batteries, I've opened up the jukebox to see if the battery connectors were broken (and they weren't) and I can't get my PC to recognize the jukebox in USB mode to reformat the player.
23:20:15PnkyChkn*replaced the batteries
23:21:11Bagderif I were you, I'd move the harddisk over to a computer to make sure it is healthy
23:21:21PnkyChknhow do I go about doing that?
23:21:32Bagderdoes the drive spinup when you start your unit?
23:21:38Bagdercan you hear/feel it?
23:21:45PnkyChknthere's like this clicking sound though
23:21:53Bagderok, then it sounds(!) like a disk problem
23:22:01PnkyChknmeaning what?
23:22:21Bagdersomething with the disk prevents it from being mounted and used properly in the archos
23:22:33Bagderpossibly a file system error
23:22:35PnkyChknis there any way to fix it, or am I screwed?
23:22:40PnkyChknright, that's the error I get
23:22:51Bagderput it in your computer and try checking it
23:23:00Bagderuse a 2.5" <-> 3.5" converter
23:23:03PnkyChknhow do I go about putting it in my computer?
23:23:18PnkyChknI'm kind of a novice when it comes to this sort of stuff...
23:23:31Bagderthen ask a friend for help that isn't ;-)
23:23:48PnkyChknwhere do I get one of those converters, and how much do they run?
23:24:35Bagder1) don't know 2) don't know ;-)
23:24:57Bagderyou get it from any techy dealer in your neighbourhood
23:24:58midker.. wrong link..
23:24:59PnkyChknif there's a problem with the disk, though, is there any way to fix it, or am I just out of luck?
23:25:43Bagderit depends on what problem it is
23:25:44midkthis should work
23:26:06Bagderif you're lucky, you can run scandisk and then go
23:26:36Dulciseif you could get your hands on a notebook, couldn't you use that?
23:26:55Bagderbut they usually only have room for one disk
23:27:28Dulciseyeah, but they is a scandisk on the recovery floppy if i remember right
23:27:54*Bagder knows very little windows magic
23:28:19midkso you need either the last link, or a laptop with a recovery floppy :)
23:28:33PnkyChknhow would I go about using a laptop with a recovery floppy?
23:28:41PnkyChknany sort of instructions anywhere online?
23:28:56midkjust have to find instructions on replacing a laptop hard drive really
23:29:12midkboot from the floppy and use any kind of 'scan disk for errors' option
23:29:30PnkyChkndo I have to take apart the jukebox to do that?
23:29:37midkyes, for either method
23:30:09PnkyChknwhat do I do with it once I've taken it apart (sorry for being a dumbass)
23:30:51Dulciseether plug it into your computer using the adapter, or plug it into a laptop, then run scandisk on it
23:31:11Dulcise(thats right?)
23:31:33PnkyChknif I do it through a laptop can I just use a USB cable? how do I connect it to the computer?
23:31:59Bagderyou rip out the existing, and put the Archos one in there instead
23:32:08Bagderyou need to rip out the disk from your Archos
23:32:13midkyou can't use a usb cable unless you put it in a usb enclosure i'd think.. you'd have to open the laptop and take out your hard drive from the laptop and swap it out with the archos one
23:32:20DulcisePnkyChkn: you have to open up your computer and do it.
23:32:43PnkyChknsounds like the adapters the way to go then, because none of my friends are gonna let me rip apart their laptops
23:33:01midkthe adapter way is simpler i'd say
23:33:21BagderI'd take that route too
23:33:23midkyou can still boot to your current hard drive/os and just check the archos one
23:33:30Dulciseindeed, if you really don't want to open up your pc you can get ide to usb dongles...
23:34:15midk[hard drive] -> [2.5->3.5 adapter] -> [usb dongle] -> [pc] :)
23:34:52PnkyChknso whether or not I do the USB dongle, I need to buy the adapter then
23:35:09midki'd think so, yes
23:35:19midk(not sure if usb dongles do 2.5 drives)
23:35:22Bagderunless you already considered upgrading to a bigger disk ;-)
23:36:42PnkyChknI don't suppose like radioshack or something would carry the adapter/usb dongle, would they?
23:37:11BagderI would assume they do
23:37:28Bagderbut then I've never actually seen or visited a radioshack ;-)
23:37:35midkyes, i'd think so, but not sure
23:37:46*Bagder is up in dark cold Sweden
23:37:55PnkyChknbrb, checking to see if they'll show it online
23:38:41Dulcisethey don't have them here in rainy england ether, well i have never seen one
23:39:14midknot seeing it online, you could give them a call, though
23:39:40Dulcisei've seen them at computer fairs, in quite abundance closest electronics store to me would be best buy...
23:44:19midki doubt they'd have it, they're not that type of store :) but never know
23:44:33PnkyChknso basically I need to buy it online
23:45:02midki'd call radioshack and see if they have it first..
23:45:20midkdo you have any other kind of computer stores around? like part shops, not retail store kind of things
23:45:58PnkyChknnot that I can think of offhand.
23:46:01PnkyChknI'm from a small town
23:46:14midkah, i guess online would be best then :)
23:47:27PnkyChknok, last question:
23:47:32PnkyChknwhere online would I find USB dongles?
23:47:45PnkyChkn(I didn't even realize dongles was a word, heh)
23:47:54Dulcisei've only seen them at pc fairs so i don't know...
23:48:53Bagderwould that actually power the drive too you say?
23:49:07Dulcisehmm i'm not sure
23:49:07Bagderor how would that be connected when he gets an adapter?
23:49:34Dulcisedoh, its an adaper not a dongle
23:49:37Dulcisemy bad..
23:50:17Bagderand I don't think it powers the disk
23:50:43BagderI'd skip the USB thought and go plain IDE
23:51:03Dulciseyeah, i was presuming it got power as well :\
23:51:24Bagderalso that adapter is pretty expensive
23:51:31BagderI see one at 39 USD
23:51:46Dulcisei see one a little cheaper
23:52:02PnkyChknstraight IDE it is.
23:52:51PnkyChknI've still got no idea how to go about doing this once I've got the adapter though...I mean as far as actual installation of the disk goes. I won't make you guys walk me through it, but are there any instruction sites online or something like that?
23:53:00Dulcisedoes the iRiver use a laptop hard drive?
23:53:09BagderDulcise: no, a 1.8" one
23:54:04Dulcise <−− except you plug the ide lead into the adapter
23:55:11PnkyChkndo I need to take out my current hard drive to do this?
23:55:23midkbe right back
23:55:27 Quit midk (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:55:35BagderPnkyChkn: but you need to extract the drive from your archos
23:55:40Dulciseif you only have one hard drive in you will probably see a spare connector on the ide lead
23:55:58PnkyChknis extracting it from the archos difficult?
23:56:16Bagderthere are pictures available for that too
23:56:54Bagderlike this

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