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#rockbox log for 2005-04-04

00:00:24amiconnHmm. It seems I am unable to find their current source code on the site...
00:00:42Bagderyes, I read commit mails
00:01:59Bagderthe do all their development somewhere else and bulk-commit once every few months
00:02:19Bagderor so it seems at least
00:03:35CoCoLUSany news on the multi codec arch.?
00:05:11 Join vol [0] (
00:05:37 Quit Rick (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
00:06:56 Join Rick [0] (
00:13:44 Join GCarrier [0] (
00:16:13 Join kergoth [0] (
00:16:33amiconnBagder: Haha, it's indeed similar. Why do they come up with that now... strange... ? ;-)
00:17:22Bagderwell, they move in mysterious ways ;-)
00:18:43amiconnFrom looking at it, their main loop should be a bit faster (unrolled once), but their initial and final tests look like they're slower
00:20:02amiconnI remember that it was really difficult to get the initial test (for short strings) to perform at least with the same speed as the C function.
00:20:17amiconnI first had a looped version as they do. It was slower
00:21:14 Join LinusN [0] (
00:21:20Bagderhi LinusN
00:21:37amiconnhi LinusN
00:24:09amiconnLinusN: I finally managed to write my graphics api documentation / proposal wiki page.
00:28:35amiconnGrr, next wiki spammer....
00:40:50 Join StrathAFK [0] (
00:41:29XShocKLinusN: hi
00:42:02XShocKLinusN: do you know what is maximum real bandwidth of USB 2.0 hi-speed channel?
00:42:12XShocKLinusN: in megabytes of real data
00:42:33XShocKyes... but those stop bits... other collision stuf...
00:42:54LinusNso i guess it is in the vicinity of 40Mbyte/s
00:43:07XShocKok.. that is what i think too.
00:44:32LinusNsome pages claim up to 60Mb, others say 50Mb
00:46:29XShocKthen it is pretty good. :)
00:48:18XShocKbtw, i have a question on SDRAM. it says that the minimum seek time for a address for Samsung ram is 5.5ns, and maximum is 1000ns. what is it depend on?
00:50:13 Quit Rick (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
00:50:52LinusNXShocK: "seek time"?????
00:51:10LinusNthere is no such thing as "seek time" in SDRAM
00:51:33LinusNmaybe you mean "access time"?
00:51:45XShocKCLK cycle time.
00:52:23LinusNwell, i guess their sdram isn't made to run with a too slow clock
00:52:45XShocKi just saw in on on page 8 i think...
00:53:00XShocKi saw 1000ns and was very scared by it
00:53:13XShocKso what does it mean?
00:53:15LinusNin fact, with a too slow clock, all available bandwidth will be used for refresh, so there will be no time left for actuall memory access
00:54:42XShocKi was scared since if that memory sometimes require 1000ns just to access a byte of data, it will certainly not do the job i wanted it to do.
00:54:54XShocKi just wanted to know what that 1000ns actually ment
00:56:18LinusNclk cycle time is how fast the CLK can be
00:56:37XShocKmmm. ok. then fine. :))
00:57:02 Join preglow [0] (
00:57:25LinusNbut all accesses are equally fast with the same CLk rate
00:58:02XShocKso no matter what address i choose in ram it will be accessed in the same amount of time?
00:58:23preglowanyone know what's inside of the ifp9xx boys?
00:58:41LinusNthe first access in a burst takes 5 clocks, and the following accesses take 1 clock each
00:59:05LinusNpreglow: no, but it could be the philips chip
00:59:28 Quit Strath (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:59:35preglowprobably is
00:59:54XShocKpreglow: i think i saw it somewhere. wait a sec
01:01:36XShocKhhm.. no sorry
01:01:38preglowi want a good excuse to learn arm asm, god damnit!
01:02:39XShocKfound something.. i don't know chineese thou.. :)
01:03:44preglowi wish the table was even smaller
01:04:58XShocKthe link was under it
01:05:02LinusNlooks like the SAA7750 chipset
01:05:46LinusNno, wait, it's a newer one
01:05:55preglowi love secretive hardware manufacturers
01:07:54 Quit _Lucretia_ ("Leaving")
01:08:02preglowwhat do we know of the dsp part in the saa7750? nothing?
01:08:29preglowwhy do they even have a dsp part? arm should be more then capable of doing most dsp efficiently
01:09:37LinusNpreglow: efficiently, perhaps, but the epic core is probably a lot more efficient than the arm7
01:10:12preglowwell, yes, dedicated dsp cores will always be more efficient for dsp than other designs, obviously
01:10:16LinusNwe know a little about the epic core, but nothing about how to program it
01:10:22preglowwhat do we know?
01:11:21LinusNwe know a little about how to communicate with it, but not much more
01:11:37LinusNi still have a dialog with philips about it
01:12:39preglowgod, i wish they stopped being anal
01:12:43preglowwhat the hell have they got to loose?
01:13:05LinusNi don't think philips is that secretive about it
01:13:25preglowthen hooray!
01:13:37LinusNit just isn't practical for customers to program the dsp core themselves
01:13:49LinusNso no customer has wanted to do it
01:13:58 Join Rick [0] (
01:14:12LinusNthat's probably why the epic programmers guide wasn't released
01:14:48LinusNso there is still a small chance that we can get the information
01:14:53preglowthat would be great indeed
01:14:59LinusNas long as it doesn't cost philips anything
01:15:19LinusNthey don't want to be burdened by loads of support questions
01:15:23 Join DJ_Dooms_Day [0] (
01:15:25preglowwell, it shouldn't provided they have the documentation in a practical form
01:15:44LinusNand there is a risk that the epic programmers guide doesn't exist at all
01:16:14LinusNwe'll see...
01:16:40preglowwould be fun, for sure
01:17:19preglowi love learning about new architectures
01:18:49XShocKcan someone recomend a good source of knowledge of digital electronics?
01:18:51preglowi also happen to want a flash based portable, heh
01:19:11LinusNXShocK: you mean an online resource for learning?
01:19:26XShocKonline or paperprinted, any
01:19:36LinusNi have no idea... :-)
01:19:51 Join XavierGr [0] (
01:20:00preglowi've got a couple of books
01:20:07preglowbut have no idea whether they're any good
01:20:28XShocKsay their names anyway
01:20:32DJ_Dooms_Daywhat do you mean by digital electronics?
01:20:43LinusNi guess amazon has hundreds of books about digital electronics
01:20:48preglowi would have to dig in my book pile
01:21:04preglowthe sedra & smith one springs to mind, but that's analogue electronics as well
01:21:32*LinusN hasn't read a single book about digital electronics
01:21:34XShocKpreglow: don't worry, i though that they right near you. :)
01:22:08preglowXShocK: i'm sorry, i can't, i'm using a ton of books as support for my vinyl records, and the books in question are behind that arrangement, heh
01:22:37*preglow needs a bigger appartment
01:22:46XShocKbut where to get that info? i had never ever thought that there is such a thing as FPGA
01:22:54preglowoh, there is
01:23:11preglowi've got a book on vhdl, i think
01:23:25preglowi can't remember what i've sold and what i've still got
01:23:39 Quit XavierGr (Client Quit)
01:23:40CamiloXShocK, you could do worse than scour the support sites of the major semiconductor manufacturers
01:23:57LinusNRushton, VHDL for Logic Synthesis
01:24:10Camilothey usually have reasonable downloads for manuals, application notes, white papers, demo code etc.
01:24:22LinusNit seems i did read a book about digital electronics after all... :-)
01:24:30Camilothen if you come across something you don't get, use google :)
01:25:11XShocKi don't get the difference between sram and sdram. :)
01:25:12Camilofor programmable logic, start with PIC chips...
01:26:09LinusNXShocK: static ram and dynamic ram are two very different architectures
01:26:22Camilothe 'd' is the difference... dynamic ram is more complex to use but cheaper because it's simpler
01:26:23XShocKCamilo: i have done a card emulator on pic 16f84a, it worked, but i couldn't manage it to work as i wanted because it didn't have enough speed.
01:27:02LinusNbasically, dynamic ram can't hold the contents for very long, it has to be rewritten with the same info over and over again, called the "refresh"
01:27:14XShocKbut both are accessed in the same amount of time, right?
01:27:25LinusNsram is usually faster
01:27:27preglowdepends on design, but no, usually not
01:27:55LinusNdram is accessed as a matrix, using rows and columns
01:27:55Camiloif you're using dynamic ram you have to consider what will refresh it etc.
01:28:19LinusNso you give it the row address first, then the column
01:28:28LinusNthis slows down the accesses
01:30:10***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
01:30:27XShocKI don't get one more thing. this refresh process. Camilo, you said that i should manage refreshing those capacitors by myself?
01:30:31LinusNXShocK: google is your friend, there are lots of pages describing the basics of electronics
01:30:48LinusNXShocK: yes, the dram controller has to refresh the dram
01:30:56CamiloCPUs and microcontrollers tend to have refresh circuitry
01:31:13Camiloso you have to configure them to refresh according to the parameters ofthe DRAM you're using
01:31:37LinusNthe programmer doesn't have to care about the refresh once the dram controller is set up
01:31:39XShocKok. thanks.i though it does in itself.
01:31:54Camilobut you are constrained - usually to using the same sorts of row/column numbering for all your dram banks
01:33:38LinusNXShocK: actually, sdram has a self-refresh mode, but that is for powersaving purposes, when the computer sleeps
01:34:13amiconnLinusN: Speaking about access speeds - the sdram data path in the iriver is 32 bits wide, and 4-byte bursts are possible, correct?
01:34:29LinusNthe path is 16-bit
01:34:59LinusNyeah, isn't it? :-)
01:35:02preglowso a one dword burst takes seven cycles
01:35:08LinusNas lame as it gets
01:35:35LinusNone dword = 5+1 bus cycles
01:35:48LinusNif a dword is 32 bits
01:36:16amiconnOkay, data path is 16 bits, but 4-*word* bursts are possible....
01:36:52preglowahh, i thought the 5 cycle first access was without data read
01:37:14LinusNno, that includes the first word
01:37:16amiconnThat means, if someone implements memcpy() and memset() using movem and an even number of registers, it should get a nice speedup...
01:37:41preglowso long as the move/copy is big enough
01:37:42amiconnToo bad my iriver still didn't arrive...
01:37:57LinusNamiconn: don't hold your breath
01:38:05Camilonight folks
01:38:09LinusNCamilo: nite
01:38:13 Quit Camilo ("Chatzilla 0.9.67 [Mozilla rv:1.8b2/20050309]")
01:38:13XShocKgood night
01:38:15*Bagder goes to sleep as well
01:38:24*LinusN should sleep too
01:38:30*preglow is very tired
01:38:37preglowand ignoring it for the third hour
01:38:49 Join elinenbe [0] (
01:38:50preglowit's getting harder
01:39:03XShocKand I need to finish my Psychology outline. :)
01:39:05preglowamiconn: but yes, using movem for all memory transfer is a muust, really
01:39:12LinusNi better go to sleep too
01:39:25preglowi need to write report, code a module and apply for jobs
01:39:26LinusNXShocK: oooh, psychology...that was a long time ago...
01:39:39preglowi would rather sleep
01:40:19preglowthank god i don't have to get up very early tomorrow
01:40:37*LinusN will get up in about 3 hours
01:40:44preglowsounds absolutely delightful
01:40:54LinusNi can't wait...
01:40:55preglowwere i you, i'd get in bed as soon as possible
01:41:06LinusNaye, aye, captain!
01:41:09preglowwith only three hours sleep, i am near suicidal when i have to get up
01:41:12 Quit elinenbe (Client Quit)
01:41:14*LinusN obeys and goes to sleep
01:41:19LinusNnite folks!
01:41:27 Part LinusN
01:45:26XShocKone more question. how long can the data stay without refreshing?
01:46:17preglowa very short time
01:46:22preglowwhy worry about that?
01:47:48XShocKi want it to work on the fastest mode possible. and i know that it will stay in ram no more that 10-20ms.
01:48:18preglowwell, i have no idea about specific numbers
01:48:26preglowbut the memory caps discharge pretty fast, i think
01:49:29XShocKok then. anyway it will probably will be dischanrged in that time.
01:50:50XShocKok. will not bother anyone anymore. :)
01:51:11preglowi want to be bothered, writing reports are boring
01:51:34XShocKhehe.. same in here.
02:11:28preglowtired, bed next
02:11:34preglownight, all
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03:19:08 Quit Sucka ("a bird in the bush is worth two in your house")
03:19:37 Join Byron [0] (byron@
03:20:17ByronI need some help, I put rockbox on my ondio and when I record the audio level won't go any lower than 21db
03:28:39 Quit Aison ("( :: NoNameScript 3.72 :: )")
03:30:11***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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03:57:51XShocKdoes ondio already has record function?
03:58:01XShocKi mean rockbox
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04:10:07 Part Rocker
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04:48:56XShocKnight all
04:49:09 Quit XShocK (" Want to be different? HydraIRC -> <-")
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05:30:15***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
05:33:39 Join Byron [0] (byron@
05:33:44Byronoops, I fell off
05:34:02Byronanyone know why the ondio won't let me record any lower than 21db
05:35:50Byronthe record audio is really high and I can't turn it down
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05:54:25 Quit Byron (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
05:58:53 Join pizza_ [0] (
05:59:29pizza_got a quick question.
05:59:38pizza_Are there any known issues with the car adapter mode?
06:00:29pizza_my JBR isn't pausing when power is disconnected.
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06:37:03 Quit pizza_ ("[BX] "I did not have sexual relations with that client, BitchX."")
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07:30:16***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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07:59:17 Join Byron [0] (byron@
08:05:20ByronI fell off again
08:05:30Byronanyone answered my question while I was gone?
08:06:07LinusNrecording level?
08:06:30LinusNwe log all irc activity
08:06:37Byronwhen I record the lowest it'll go is 21 db
08:07:05LinusNcheck the IRC link on the rockbox site
08:07:14LinusNanyway, nobody answered it
08:07:19LinusNso i'll answer now
08:07:21Byroncan you?
08:07:34LinusNno, the 21dB limit is in the hardware
08:07:53LinusNnothing we can do about it
08:07:55Byronohh man, that sucks, all of my recordings are too hot
08:08:14Byronwell, glad to know that the problem has been acknowledged
08:08:35LinusNyou're not the only one with that problem
08:08:59Byronis there a way to tell rockbox not to change that aspect of the archos... if it works fine in the original firmware that is.
08:09:20LinusNi repeat: the 21dB limit is in the hardware
08:10:03Byronbummer, well thanks for the help and I hope someone comes up with some sort of audio compression or something to bypass the hardware limitation, but I doubt that can happen anyway.
08:10:22Byronthanks Linus, you've been a big help
08:10:32LinusNyou're welcome
08:10:41ByronI can't find anything refering to this problem on google so I am glad I found someone who knows what is up
08:11:11LinusNhang on
08:12:19LinusNyou record with the builtin mic, right?
08:15:48Byronis there a firmware upgrade for PMA400
08:16:54LinusNwhat's that?
08:17:04Byronthe new archos that is a pda
08:17:14 Join Zagor [0] (
08:17:29LinusNno, we have no plans for the pma400...yet
08:17:36LinusNmorning Zagor
08:18:40Zagorhi. anyone got any ideas how to get rid of the twiki registration spam? manual screening is all I can think of :-(
08:19:08LinusNme too
08:19:45LinusNwe can of course look for links in the user topic
08:19:55LinusNand alert the admins
08:20:08Zagorbut not everyone adds links either
08:20:18LinusNit's a start
08:20:42amiconnHmm, that would disallow links to someone's homepage....
08:20:48amiconnMorning, btw :)
08:20:53LinusNnot disallow
08:21:14LinusNjust alert the admins when the topic is added or changed
08:21:22LinusNvia email
08:21:40LinusNwe check it and approve or delete, manually
08:22:00LinusNit's not that we're swamped with wiki spam...yet
08:22:07Zagorhow about a rockbox-related question on the form?
08:22:23Zagorwell we do get several bogus registrations per day. it's becoming a burden.
08:22:28LinusNgood idea
08:23:57LinusNhehe, how about "which FAQ entry is about...blabla?" :-)
08:25:15LinusNor just "which color is the Rockbox logo?"
08:25:34LinusNanyway, are the wiki spam entries purely automated?
08:25:50Zagorno, they're manual. i tried changing the form and they still come.
08:27:00LinusNok, so the questions have to be somewhat hard
08:28:41LinusN"name three of the Rockbox project staff members" :-)
08:29:10Zagorspelling would be a problem
08:29:37LinusNor a dropdown list of all wiki users
08:30:50LinusNwhich of these 5 platforms is *not* supported by rockbox?
08:31:29LinusNreminds me of the rockbox-trivia irc channel :-)
08:41:48Byronis there a software mod that you guys could do to the rockbox fm 20 so that the line-in would accept a microphone?
08:42:16ByronI've got an amplifier and a mic and the archos in a fanny pack right now, but it'd be nice if I could get rid of the amp
08:42:41Byronthe internal mic picks up all of that nasty hard drive noise, makes it useless
08:42:47 Join ashridah [0] (
08:43:14ZagorByron: can't be done. you need the amplifier.
08:44:02Byronany way to make the hard drive stop spinning up during recordings, maybe use some sort of memory buffer?
08:44:25LinusNrockbox doesn't spin up until the memory is full
08:44:31Zagorwe already use all the memory we have, but when it's full we need to spin up the disk to store it
08:45:19Byronyea, bummer
08:45:33Byronit spins up every 3 mins or so, sometimes more frequantly
08:46:01Zagoryup, that sounds about right
08:46:13LinusNByron: if you set the recording settings to record to the current directory, it won't spin up when you start the recording
08:47:25LinusNor you could buy an Ondio, which is a flash player/recorder, also supported by rockbox
08:48:45Byronright, but the audio won't go any lower than 21db
08:48:54Byronso I'm gonna get messy audio quality one way or the other
08:49:07Byronthe best way to record so far, is to have an external mic
08:49:20Zagorthat will always be the case
08:51:19Bagder"No need to put lcd_write() in the IRAM since it has to be slow."
08:51:25Bagder(from OpenNeo)
08:52:24LinusNi wonder why they removed the TOC support
08:52:52Bagderthey do odd things
08:56:46Bagderthe commen in the new code says "No TOC exists"
08:56:55Bagdereven weirder
08:57:25Bagderit makes me suspect they don't know what they
08:57:27Bagder're doing
08:59:15Bagder"No need to support HD bigger than 2 TB"
09:04:33LinusNmaybe they're trying to save memory?
09:04:52Bagderyes, possibly
09:05:09LinusN400 bytes per id3 entry...oooooh :-)
09:05:11Bagdertheir heap is growing so they need to cut off code ;-)
09:05:16LinusN100 bytes
09:05:53Bagder64KB for heap is a quite a lot when you only have 256
09:06:15Zagorwhy did they add heap anyway?
09:06:16LinusNthey're stuck in heap hell
09:06:21BagderZagor: m m m malloc
09:06:32Zagoryeah, but what are they using it for?
09:06:43Bagdernothing useful
09:06:45LinusNsame thing as other heap junkies
09:06:55Zagorvarious bits and pieces?
09:06:56DJ_Dooms_DayI saw that theres apparently some primitive mpeg playback code on the CVS, does this mean we're close to getting mp3 playback? :)
09:06:59 Quit ashridah (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
09:07:02BagderZagor: yeps, just random stuff
09:07:22LinusNDJ_Dooms_Day: the mpeg playback you see is the archos playback code
09:07:27Zagorhow very foolish
09:07:48BagderZagor: they do a lot of things we wouldn't...
09:08:29DJ_Dooms_DayIm in denial, leave me be
09:10:18*Bagder pats DJ_Dooms_Day on his head. "Ok my son, now go and play with the other kids" ;*)
09:17:57 Join Lynx_ [0] (HydraIRC@
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09:30:41 Quit Bagder (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
09:31:13bobTHChi all!
09:37:48 Join Bagder [0] (
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09:41:18LinusNmorning Bagder
09:44:24 Join kurzhaarrocker [0] (
09:45:15kurzhaarrockerLinusN you're evil. Instead of commiting the triggered recording patch you made a cvs conflict. :)
09:46:19*Bagder verifies that LinusN is evil
09:46:35LinusNkurzhaarrocker: sorry about that
09:46:51kurzhaarrockerno problem. Rockbox lives and thats good.
09:55:42kurzhaarrockerIt was extremly easy to fix anyway - just an additional include
09:56:31*LinusN updates the patch tracker
09:58:25kurzhaarrockerÄh? What do you mean with update? It certainly won't mean you update the patch of triggered recording?
09:58:42LinusNi just did
09:58:52kurzhaarrockerups. Thanks! :)
10:04:03*LinusN is installing the peak meter patch on his recorder
10:04:20kurzhaarrockerHooray! :D
10:04:26*kurzhaarrocker jumps up and down in joy
10:06:48LinusNi like the new trigger bar
10:08:27*kurzhaarrocker searches something to wag with
10:08:48LinusNis the trigger enabled by default?
10:09:16kurzhaarrockerI don't think so. It shouldn't be. Triggered recording is something sepcial
10:09:45LinusNseems to be
10:09:49kurzhaarrockerBut in my configs it is stored that I it records triggered -> I don't know the default by heart any more.
10:10:50LinusNseems like the cursor for the gain isn't drawn in the right place
10:11:47LinusNit seems to be correctly drawn when the cursor is an inverted bar
10:11:58LinusNbut not when it's an arrow
10:12:40kurzhaarrockerHm. I should have noticed that. My fault. Unfortunately my batteries are in an external charger right now -> can't verify.
10:22:35LinusNdid you ditch the idea with the blinking led while waiting to trigger?
10:23:28kurzhaarrockerNo. It should blink.
10:24:01LinusNit doesn't for me
10:28:29 Join ashridah [0] (
10:29:37 Quit Ka (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
10:32:41kurzhaarrockerThe code that blinks the led in TRIG_STEADY state is in recording.c, line 388. I'll verify what happened as soon as my batteries are charged.
10:34:01kurzhaarrockerHm. When the thing is prerecording - is (mpeg_stat & MPEG_STATUS_RECORD) == true?
10:35:49LinusNthen MPEG_STATUS_PRERECORD is set
10:36:04kurzhaarrockerThat's what I thought.
10:38:06LinusNmaybe i misunderstood
10:38:27LinusNit only blinks during the trig duration period
10:38:38kurzhaarrockerThat is the intension
10:38:48LinusNand not just when the trigger is armed, which i thought it would do
10:39:13LinusNmy mistake
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10:39:44kurzhaarrockerIt was a useful feature to be able to distinguish wether the trigger threshold has been reached from the distance.
10:40:40kurzhaarrockerIt is only useful for long trigger times though.
10:41:56LinusNis the wiki manual up to date?
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10:42:47kurzhaarrocker<- meeting :(
10:43:33 Nick QT_ is now known as QT (as@area51.users.madwifi)
10:56:54LinusNkurzhaarrocker: i wish you could have make it compile in the simulator...
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11:13:14*LinusN just committed the triggered recording patch
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11:30:20***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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12:06:15amiconnArgh, Linus is gone! :-/
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12:13:46Lost-ashping Lost-ash
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12:26:54LinusNnetwork maintenance...
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12:43:49amiconnLinusN: The triggered recording patch broke the ondio fm build...
12:44:17amiconn... and your fix doesn't work (it obviously can't), but instead breaks the advanced sound settings for ondio sp...
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12:44:31LinusNthat's really funny, because it works when i build locally
12:44:49amiconnThe problem is not related to the mas types, but to the button handling
12:44:56LinusNi know
12:45:07LinusNmy "oops" commit wasn't related to the build error
12:45:27amiconnIt wasn't?
12:46:02LinusNno, it was because i accidentally added advanced peak meter recording settings to the SP
12:46:05amiconnThe build obviously cannot work, because the button assignment is hardcoded, and the Ondio doesn't have PLAY nor F2
12:46:55LinusNdo you have any good ideas what buttons we could use?
12:49:04amiconnI did not yet try the triggered recording, so I don't know the details. But from looking at the code, I wonder why it defines its own menu function instead of using the existing one
12:49:36amiconnThe USB handling is just plain wrong
12:50:01LinusNah, yes
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12:55:00amiconnBtw, the 'Oops' commit seems unnecessary to me. The code section in question is protected by #ifdef HAVE_RECORDING anyway, and the MAS3539 cannot record...
12:58:26amiconnHmm, I need to have a look at the triggered recording myself. Can only do that in the evening, and it's too bad I don't always have access to an Ondio FM
12:59:04LinusNhmmm, ondio has no play key...
12:59:33LinusNi guess the "cancel" function has to be disabled on the ondio then
12:59:44amiconnIf at all possible, I would prefer it to use the standard rockbox menu system. That would ensure consistent operation with the other menus, and also most likely save some code size
12:59:50LinusN(pressing OFF to cancel the settings)
12:59:58LinusNamiconn: agreed
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13:10:34ceebmojI have been reading the Audio API stuff has any progres been made on it?
13:10:42LinusNnot really
13:11:51LinusNi'm working on restructuring the audio code to prepare for the new code
13:12:15ceebmojwho is working on it?
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13:12:28ceebmojare thay about to talk to?
13:14:10LinusNi am working on it
13:14:29LinusNrestructuring the code, that is
13:16:20LinusNbut yes, we are all here, so if you have any questions, just shoot
13:18:09ceebmojok basicly the API are to be dinamicly loaded as required based on the trackes that are to be played
13:18:40LinusNthe codecs, yes
13:19:31ceebmojwill ther be a limet in the number of codecs that can be loded or will the buffer be filled up with song dater and Codecs untill it is full to reduce disk activerty
13:19:40ceebmojsory for the spelling by the way.
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13:22:05LinusNwe have thought about a limit of two codecs
13:23:04dwihnohow much ram would a typical codec utilize?
13:23:22Bagderthe problem is internal ram
13:23:43dwihnoit's too slow?
13:23:48LinusNa "typical" codec could use a few hundred K
13:23:50Bagderno, the codecs need to use internal ram
13:23:54Bagderfor speed reasons
13:24:02Bagderand we only have 96K iram
13:24:20ceebmojok so you would set a side part of the memory area to acomedate a and the apropreat codecs would be loded and the disk would be hit again if ther are other file timpes in the buffer befor it was empty?
13:26:02ceebmojso why not load all the codecs in to the buffer along with the files to be played and then load the codec from the buffer in to the slot as and when it is required? that way you can have as many codecs as you like fom the disk to the buffer in one disk hit?
13:26:20LinusNceebmoj: because the internal ram is so small
13:26:36LinusNand we don't want to relocate the codecs dynamically
13:26:39preglowwell, yes, but we can copy data and code to iram just as its needed
13:26:45LinusNpreglow: true
13:26:51preglowthat's a small operation
13:27:05LinusNthat's in fact exactly what they will do...
13:27:24LinusNthe relocation issue is bigger
13:28:26LinusNrelocation == translate all jump addresses in the code to make it run in different places in RAM
13:28:41LinusNmaybe i misunderstood you
13:28:55LinusNi think i did
13:28:56dwihnoyou patch the program in-ram?
13:28:57preglowi thought we planned on just having two different statically linked version?
13:29:02LinusNpreglow: yes
13:29:32Bagderbut preloading them, we'd need to load both versions
13:29:39LinusNi think ceebmoj talks about loading the codec into the audio buffer, and then move it to the appropriate slot when it is to be executed
13:29:39preglowi think the codec loading will have to be split up somehow anyway, the metadata part of the codecs will probably have to be loaded at all times
13:29:42Bagderor perhaps not
13:29:47LinusNBagder: yes
13:30:02ceebmojwhy is this a problem can you not hold two slots open at a fixed address and the just coppy to thowes places that way ther is no dinamik linking problems
13:30:04BagderLinusN: we could probably figure out in which slot it'll go into
13:30:15ceebmojBagder that is what I am trying to say
13:30:18LinusNceebmoj: that's our intention
13:30:22***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
13:30:27Bagderif you skip a sonf
13:30:31Bagderit'll break
13:31:19preglowought to teach you not to use too many codecs!!
13:31:40ceebmojwhy would skiping a song caruse a problem?
13:31:43Bagder"too many codecs in use error, remove a few and try again"
13:32:04Bagderceebmoj: because then you'd use the other slot than what was first believed
13:32:07dwihnoReminds me of windows
13:32:36preglowprobably should have a codec cache of selectable size
13:32:39dwihnoHow does the database browser thing work? It loads the entire DB instead of every dir entry?
13:32:40Bagderas we'd have two linked versions of all codecs
13:32:41preglowloading them all is out of the question
13:33:19dwihnoBagder: is it a big hassle to patch the calls during runtime?
13:33:23preglowwe could of course also make the plugin format fully relocatable, and do the fixups right before it is to be used :)
13:33:26LinusNdwihno: yes
13:34:10dwihnoI imagine players with insane amounts of memory
13:34:31dwihnoLet's say 64 megs or such
13:34:47preglowi think 32 megs is pretty much, to be honest
13:34:51LinusNme too
13:35:12dwihnoNext you guys will say that it should be enough for everyone ;)
13:35:54dwihnoHow big will the pcm buffer be?
13:36:10preglowas big as we can have it
13:36:14preglowforget that
13:36:16dwihnoI was thinking stupid thoughts... Such as keeping pcm data in the 32 meg buffer instead of the compressed ;)
13:36:37LinusNdwihno: go away
13:36:55 Part dwihno
13:36:55ceebmojI sumed that when a file was to be played you would check the tipe and ues the codec that is requied that way when you skip a song you would just ues the codek that it requires this would stop skip problems that you talk about
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13:37:05dwihnoNah, you won't get rid of me that easy ;)
13:37:08Bagderceebmoj: yes
13:37:17Bagderceebmoj: but we intend to have two "slots" for the codecs
13:37:23Bagderto allow two codecs simultaneously
13:37:28Bagderlinked to fixed addresses
13:37:37 Join ashridah [0] (
13:38:01*preglow is contemplating a one slot version with more iram available for each codec
13:38:21ceebmojso why not load as many codecs as you can in to the buffer from the disk in one disk hit?
13:38:31Bagderpreglow: perhaps that's the viable solution
13:38:35preglowbecause they consume space?
13:38:56Bagderbecause you'd have to load both versions of all codecs as well
13:39:03preglowBagder: i think it should be easily configurable, at least, only use i can think of for two slots are speaking menus and such
13:39:03Bagderassuming a two-slot approach
13:39:05ceebmojbut if you have many difrent file tipes say in a play list you will get better batry life this way
13:39:08ashridahperhaps allow the user to specify one or two 'common' codecs that should be loaded by default, and keep the rest as plugins
13:39:22LinusNin fact, a single slot, along with ceebmoj's idea could be the way to go
13:39:25Bagderceebmoj: not necessarily
13:39:47preglowLinusN: then what if audio from two sources are to be mixed simultaneously?
13:39:50Bagdersingle slot will of course prevent cross-fading between two codecs
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13:39:58LinusNnot necessarily
13:40:04ceebmojbadger why do you feal you would get wors battry life?
13:40:10preglowwell, no, but depends heavily on efficient codecs
13:40:19Bagdergiven enough buffer...
13:40:24dwihnohave you guys checked how often the iriver spins a disk during regular mp3 playback?
13:40:32preglowdwihno: too often
13:40:35dwihnoder Disk spinnst wie ein kartoffel!
13:40:40dwihnopreglow: every track?
13:40:42Bagderthe iriver is not a good example
13:40:47LinusNi think crossfading should be implemented purely on a pcm level
13:40:53preglowdwihno: no, but still too often, i dont think the iriver firmware ever loads incomplete tracks
13:40:54Bagderit reads the id3 data on every track
13:40:56ceebmojmy iriver spins up about twice for an album
13:41:01Bagderor something
13:41:26preglowceebmoj: hell, do you use 64kbps files or somethig?
13:41:27Bagderhm, perhaps they dig it out from ram come to think of it
13:41:37preglowBagder: it doesn't spin up for each song, at least
13:41:48Bagderbut it is dead slow on showing id3 info
13:41:55preglowthat it is
13:41:55Bagderfor a new song
13:42:44ceebmojno ogg 145 I think
13:42:54dwihnoI thought about the JoS players using rockbox
13:42:56dwihnothat would be swell
13:43:02dwihnobut somebody said something about the hardware, no?
13:43:09ceebmojId3 tags take 2 to 5 seconds to sho up
13:43:29LinusNdwihno: i have no idea what hardware is in the Jens Of Korea players
13:44:03dwihnoDidn't they at least develop the sw?
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13:44:42BagderI don't think so
13:44:54dwihnoshame on them!
13:45:03DBUGEnqueued KICK asdsd
13:45:03asdsd,15good morning guys
13:45:08preglowbut anyway
13:45:19preglowa one slot system will surely break speaking menus?
13:45:26asdsd,15oh hey preglow
13:45:31***Alert Mode level 1
13:45:31asdsd,15hows it coming on the iriver?
13:45:33preglow+b, anyone?
13:45:38LinusNnot if they are pcm
13:45:39preglowi can't stand the highlight
13:45:55***Alert Mode level 2
13:45:55asdsd,15ill get rid of it
13:45:58preglowasdsd: you are aware your text is unreadable?
13:46:09preglowLinusN: ahh, no, but they are usually mp3, no?
13:46:10CtcpIgnored 1 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood
13:46:10*Bagder ignores such IRC crap
13:46:11LinusNpreglow: i can read his text
13:46:21preglowit's cyan on a gray background here
13:46:24preglowa very lovely combination
13:46:39LinusNthen change your background :-)
13:46:49LinusNor disable mirc colors
13:46:59preglowi prefer a black background for everything
13:47:06preglowi'll look into how to fix that in irssi
13:47:09***Alert Mode level 3
13:47:10preglownot a bad idea anyhow
13:47:14LinusNwhich is the sensible thing to do in all occasions
13:47:17preglowlight cyan on white!
13:47:21LinusNmirc is evil
13:47:31quelsarukasdsd: why not using plain text without colour schemes??
13:47:32***Alert Mode level 4
13:47:42***Alert Mode level 5
13:47:42asdsd,00i don't know how to set it to use a default font
13:47:42quelsaruki use kvirc, better than mirc :)
13:47:48***Alert Mode level 6
13:47:48asdsd,00im using Trillian 3 pro on ir
13:47:49preglowhaha, ok
13:47:50***Alert Mode level 7
13:48:27***Alert Mode level 8
13:48:27asdsd,00trill 3 used to let me choose the ofnt based on platform
13:48:30***Alert Mode level 9
13:48:30asdsd,00trill 2*
13:48:51***Alert Mode level 10
13:48:51asdsd,00lol aynhow i just wantd to know hows it coming on the iriver
13:49:07LinusNsteadily forward...
13:49:23***Alert Mode level 11
13:49:26Lynx_asdsd: the cyan is still annoying...
13:49:35***Alert Mode level 12
13:49:35asdsd,00im checking the homepage and it mentions u got rolo working
13:50:28***Alert Mode level 13
13:50:28asdsd,00so we'll be able to boot into the original or rockbox firmware depending how what mood were in?
13:50:41Bagderthat we already do
13:50:55***Alert Mode level 14
13:50:55asdsd,00so then what does rolo provide?
13:51:05***Alert Mode level 15
13:51:05asdsd,00i just read this: thats all
13:51:10 Quit quelsaruk ("KVIrc 3.2.0 'Marmalade'")
13:51:10Bagderrolo loading and starting another rockbox from disk
13:51:21LinusNinstead of rebooting
13:51:51Bagderreboot only loads a fixed file name, rolo can load whatever using the right extension
13:53:13***Alert Mode level 16
13:53:13asdsd,00oh i see
13:53:15***Alert Mode level 17
13:53:37LinusNvery handy for developers
13:54:21***Alert Mode level 18
13:54:21asdsd,00why r u guys adopting my color?
13:54:30LinusNi'm not
13:55:01***Alert Mode level 19
13:55:01asdsd,00ur all using my color now wtf
13:55:06Bagderno we don't
13:55:10Bagderyour client is crap
13:55:11***Alert Mode level 20
13:55:11asdsd,00argh trillian is annoying
13:55:32preglowi second that
13:55:40***Alert Mode level 21
13:55:40asdsd,00*goes back to mirc*
13:55:51Mode"#rockbox +o LinusN " by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
13:55:57DMJCuse xchat-2
13:55:57Bagdermirc *invented* those colors
13:56:07Bagderthus it is the evil itself
13:56:25***Alert Mode level 22
13:56:25asdsd,00ive been using this shade of this font color for nearly 5 years now
13:56:27***Alert Mode level 23
13:56:27asdsd,00ill never change it
13:56:50LinusNi have set my client to ignore those silly mirc colors
13:56:59Bagderme too
13:57:15***Alert Mode level 24
13:57:21preglowi can read you
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13:57:28 Join dadasdsad [0] (
13:57:34dadasdsadgood old mirc
13:57:49dadasdsaddoes iriver has a greyscale yet?
13:57:51preglowsure beats trillian, apparently, heh
13:58:12preglowwell, no, not in cvs
13:58:14LinusNno greyscale yet
13:58:17preglowbut there is an incomplete patch around
13:59:22dadasdsadoh man if it takes that long to make a greyscale pallete itll prolly take longe rto make a color one
13:59:42Bagderdevelopment do requires someone to do the work
13:59:45Bagderoddly enough
13:59:48preglowit's more the fact that rockbox never was intended for anything but black and white
13:59:56preglowthis time around we'll probably be more prepared for colour
13:59:57LinusNdadasdsad: you think the palette is the problem?
14:00:18preglowit's not :)
14:00:25dadasdsadbesides im sure that colors isn't a real priority right now right?
14:00:25LinusNyou obviously aren't a programmer
14:00:59dadasdsadim a computer enthusiast
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14:02:08 Quit webguest27 (Client Quit)
14:03:06dadasdsadwell im sure u guys ar emore interested in making the sound work rather than the display right
14:04:00LinusNdamn right
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14:06:28preglowbut anywho
14:06:39preglowif cross fading is to be done with very large buffers and prebuffering
14:06:50preglowwhere do we get the buffers from? just reserve them for this purpose at all times?
14:07:03preglowa crossfade can be pretty long
14:07:06LinusNperhaps a "crossfade" setting?
14:07:16***Alert Mode OFF
14:08:12preglowbut yes, it sure means we can utilize the iram better
14:08:20preglowwhich is always good
14:08:32LinusNthere's still the voice issue...
14:08:36preglowbut it also requires the codecs are all a certain percentage above realtime
14:08:48preglowabove 200
14:09:46LinusNnot with pcm buffer crossfade
14:10:09LinusNor you mean the voice?
14:10:13preglowno, i mean crossfade
14:10:31LinusNif we crossfade in the pcm buffer, we only run one codec at a time
14:10:45preglowthe same cpu time that usually had to accomodate one codec, now has to accomodate two, not at once, but the same resources nonetheless
14:11:42LinusNwell, we still need very fast codecs, or the batteries won't last very long
14:11:48preglowyes, indeed
14:11:55preglowthey should be well above 200%
14:12:01preglowso it's not really a problem, no
14:12:48ceebmojare the codecs runing at 200% or is ther the scope to get them to run that fast?
14:12:58LinusNat least 200%
14:13:04LinusNbut not all codecs are there yet
14:13:05preglowi've got one at about 200% in some cases
14:13:27preglowflac probably is there as well, can't remember if i've tried it without disk writing
14:13:33preglowbut i need to go now
14:13:35preglowlater, all
14:13:41 Quit preglow ("leaving")
14:14:17LinusNi think sacrificing memory for crossfading isn't such a bad tradeoff
14:15:20Bagdersounds fair
14:15:21LinusNwe could easily spare a meg or two
14:15:48LinusN5 secs of 44100 pcm audio is roughly 800k
14:16:05Bagder5 secs cross-fade should be enough for everyone
14:16:15 Quit R3nTiL ()
14:16:17LinusNreboot time...
14:16:19 Part LinusN
14:20:12ashridahdid anyone ever work out what the bottleneck was with vorbis?
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14:43:13 Join bytemission [0] (~bytemissi@
14:44:13bytemissionanybody around?
14:44:40bytemissionah, cool. sorry, but i'm new to irc
14:45:21bytemissioni got a question about the iriver ihp-120 hardware. perhaps somebody can help me.
14:45:39bytemissioni need to know some of the caps on the mainboard
14:45:44bytemissionits C90
14:45:48bytemissionand C99
14:46:10bytemissiondoes anybody know which capacity and current they have
14:46:32bytemissionwould be so nice. i posted in the rockbox-forum this question 2 days ago
14:46:44bytemissionbut got as answer that i should post it here ;)
14:47:09LinusNhang on
14:49:26bytemissionif more information is required i can post it. just ask
14:50:09 Join MoosCamaro [0] (
14:50:30MoosCamarohey all
14:50:40 Join lolo-laptop [0] (~lostlogic@
14:51:25LinusNbytemission: i'm having trouble measuring the capacitance with my multimeter
14:51:48bytemissionhm, shit
14:52:22bytemissioni would measure them myself, but i got no multimeter for caps measuring
14:52:36bytemissionwhat kind of trouble?
14:53:17LinusNmu multimeter just says 0.00 :-)
14:54:08bytemissionhm. not nice ;)
14:54:22LinusNthey are propably pretty big
14:54:53bytemissionwhat is the biggest you can measure?
14:55:43LinusNnot sure
14:56:19LinusNdid you blow U28 too?
14:56:29bytemissioni think not
14:56:41LinusNwhat did you do?
14:56:41bytemissionit looks pretty nice, but i haven't checked
14:57:11bytemissionc90 anmd c99 are visibly damaged
14:57:27bytemissioni didn't checked anything else.
14:57:52bytemissioni think i will have a lot to do ;9
14:58:08bytemissionperhaps this evening i will have more information
14:58:53bytemissionthe guy, i bought the unit from, told me that they used a wrong powersupply for charging.
14:59:04bytemissionfrom this time the unit was out of order
15:00:03LinusNa fairly common fault
15:00:55bytemissionyes, so to say
15:01:07LinusNlots of people fry their irivers that way
15:01:12bytemissionhow can i test U28?
15:01:41LinusNmeasure the voltage on pin 3
15:01:53LinusNit should be 1.8V
15:01:53bytemissionthey should built in a fuse
15:02:17LinusNin retrospect, yes they should
15:02:32LinusNbut people really should take more care
15:02:47bytemissionhm. if i connect the dameged unit to the right power supply i will have 1.8V on this pin? is this right?
15:03:23LinusNU28 generates the 1.8V to the CPU, from the battery power
15:03:24bytemissionhow to test this?
15:03:38LinusNtry to turn it on, and measure the voltage
15:03:40bytemissionokay, i have to connect a working battery...
15:04:03bytemissionbut if i would turn it on it does nothing, usually
15:04:21bytemissioni will test this later
15:04:31LinusNi think your U28 is broken, but it might not be the only thing
15:05:11bytemissioni know. but perhaps i have luck and only the U28 + C90 + C99 are damaged.
15:05:20LinusNis the green led on when you connect the charger?
15:05:30bytemissionno. the unit makes nothing.
15:05:38LinusNU28 can be ordered from digikey btw
15:05:59LinusNnothing? then maybe U15 is dead too
15:06:03bytemissionno light, no sounds (from spinning hardrive), just nothing
15:06:19LinusNU15 is the charging circuit
15:06:24bytemissionuh, it ssems to me that i speak to an expert...
15:06:45LinusNwell, i drew the schematics on the rockbox site
15:06:52Lost-ashbytemission: LinusN probably knows the hardware on a level approaching iriver's engineers
15:06:55bytemissionah, okay...
15:07:03LinusNand i have spent some time researching the power circuitry
15:07:04Lost-ashif not exceeding, in some cases :)
15:07:25LinusNi should update the schematics...
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15:11:00bytemissionwhat kind of chip are U28 and U15? can't read anything on them...
15:13:06LinusNU15 is a texas Instruments TPS61020
15:13:23LinusNU28 is a Linear LTC3405
15:13:41LinusNLTC3405ES6 to be exact
15:14:33bytemissionthank you so much. it's so cool that i found this irc
15:14:54LinusNyou're welcome
15:16:57bytemissionbut i think i will have much more questions these days ...
15:17:02LinusNoops, i was wrong about U15
15:18:22LinusNit's a texas Instruments BQ24022
15:19:19LinusNyou're welcome
15:19:53LinusNplease return and report your progress
15:21:14bytemissionThat's understood.
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15:46:55LinusNgotta go
15:46:57*ashridah looks through the logs.
15:46:58LinusNcu guys
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15:47:02ashridahhm. no-one answered about vorbis
15:47:08ashridahdid anyone work out the bottleneck, or is it still dead slow?
15:47:32LinusNnobody has worked on it
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16:22:19thegeekhmm, anyone know a good place to order an iskin and that battery for the iriver ?
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19:58:19amiconnBagder: r u there?
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20:33:09Tanghi Tomas
20:34:17 Join mirak [0] (
20:35:11mirakdo you know if rockbox could be able to get more output volume from the line out or headphones output ?
20:35:39mirakro maybe it could be possible to hack the iriver firmware
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20:38:42TangHi mirak
20:39:02Tangi guess there is sometimes software volume level limitation
20:39:12Tang(specially to agree European law)
20:39:27Tangbut the output level is also linked with hardware
20:40:22TangSo i doubt they will have a big possibility to increase the output level
20:40:36Tangespecialy with actual US fw
20:41:04Tanganyway there is still no AudioAPI so stay tuned
20:42:46mirakwhen I record something on line in
20:43:11mirakif the volume is high, then I can get a sound much higher than I could get from a mp3
20:43:27mirakthis leave me thinking that this can produce louder sound
20:43:34mirakwithout distortion
20:43:50mirakI agree that with the provided headphones
20:43:56miraklouder is useless
20:44:03mirakbut certainly not for line out
20:44:14mirakor other headphones
20:44:29mirakbut I don't know why I tell that, since you already read it on the forum
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22:23:09preglowstill no h140, amiconn? :]
22:23:20amiconnNo :(
22:24:16XShocKwhat is Pseudo SRAM? :)
22:24:33XShocKhi, i thought nobody was here. :)
22:24:39preglowpseudo sram?
22:25:16preglowlike that
22:25:25preglowit's sdram with no visible refresh circuitry, i think
22:25:40amiconnpreglow: yup.
22:25:57preglowi rock
22:26:13preglowi remember we had a look at a ton of ram types in some digital electronics class
22:26:45XShocKthanks. :)
22:29:33amiconnI *love* it when patches break good old functionality
22:29:33preglowtony the tiger suddenly appears
22:32:29XShocKon a hand-made circuit what are real maximum possible frequencies i can use and do not worry about noise and other things?
22:32:54XShocKi understand it greatly depends on how that circuit is done, but...
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22:33:06preglowa load of factors
22:33:14preglowdepends on the traces, the components you use, etc
22:33:24XShocKyes.. i understand.
22:33:51preglowit's a pretty complicated subject, you need a lot of experience to make circuit boards that are tolerant to stuff like that
22:33:56preglowwhat frequency range were you thinking of?
22:34:26XShocK40-60-80.. somewhere there
22:34:35XShocKbetter closer to 80.
22:35:09XShocKbut i have no idea if i even have a chance to achieve it
22:35:55preglowwhat, 80mhz?
22:35:55XShocKwill use smd components
22:36:01XShocKyes. :)
22:36:10preglowwhat're you making?
22:36:44XShocKdigital oscillograph
22:36:55XShocKoops.. oscilloscope i think is a right term
22:37:07preglowthat's probably quite a lot of work, you know
22:37:37XShocKi am not making it today... just researching.
22:38:16preglowbut 80mhz is the bandwidth you want?
22:38:29preglowif so, the internal logic will have to run at a higher frequency than 80mhz for sure
22:38:39XShocKwith my today's knowledge my maximum is some not connections, lpt port and coms and PICs
22:39:00XShocKyes. 80mhz for ADC.
22:39:30XShocKso that reasonably 10-20 mhz signals could be measured
22:39:40preglowi would just have bought a digital scope :P
22:39:51preglowmaking a scope sounds like a ton of work
22:41:58preglowi'm not that good with complicated electronics myself, so i may be exagerating
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22:45:42XShocKbut with home equipment, and home made two side textolite(how is it spelled?) and best traces possible with home equipment, what are normal frequencies?
22:46:35preglowand no, i have absolutely no idea
22:46:59preglowyou can probably get very high, your skills with the board layout is a much greater factor than what facilities you have
22:47:04preglowto a certain extent, of course
22:47:06XShocKthat material the dielectric sheet is made of. :)
22:47:28preglowat higher frequencies, stuff like trace length start to matter
22:49:05XShocKok. at least i can hope. :)
22:49:15XShocKthank you
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22:53:27XShocKi think it is spelled "textolite"
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22:58:23mirakdo you think we could get more output volume with rock box on the H300 ?
22:58:59Bagderwouldn't surprise me
22:59:12*amiconn spots Bagder
22:59:34amiconnI wanted to ask you something... meanwhile simply did it :)
22:59:49amiconnI hope using C99 syntax is ok...
23:00:16amiconn...namely 'designated initializers'
23:00:31Bagderthose are one of the best C99 features imo
23:00:54amiconnI used them for const-policing triggered recording
23:01:03preglowmirak: you can't get more output volume than the hardware supports
23:01:22preglowmirak: that is, you can, but then you'd have to do nasty stuff like hard limiting
23:01:39Bagderpreglow: Rockbox on Archos is a lot louder than the original firmware
23:01:44preglowBagder: how come?
23:01:56Bagderprobably because they limit it
23:02:25 Quit Rick (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:02:27Bagderand thus its not impossible that iriver does the same
23:02:54Bagderbut I guess the guys who've played with the sound so far could tell for sure
23:03:55amiconn(1) I wonder why they would artificially limit the volume (2) Anyway, I don't care much either. Even stock archos firmware is louder than I need
23:04:06preglowapart from eu regulations, i can't imagine why
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23:04:32XShocKi never really compared the power, but it seems iriver uses most of its powers in original.
23:04:38preglowthe output volume is just fine on the h1x0, as long as the music has decent levels
23:04:58BagderI find the h1x0 volume output a lot lower than my Archos
23:05:02preglowi guess i could make a auto-gainer once the audio system is in place
23:05:08Bagdermy archos can blow my ears out
23:05:13Bagdermy iriver can't
23:05:22preglowthen you don't listen to the right music :)
23:05:39preglowi have successfully made my ears ring for hours on end
23:05:41amiconnBagder: Is it really that much qieter?
23:05:56Bagderamiconn: the iriver/archos difference is indeed noticable
23:06:04BagderI've run my iriver on max serveral times
23:06:13Bagdernever been close to that on archos
23:06:18amiconnWith rockbox on archos recorder, I use volume = 50..70 for earphones
23:06:43BagderI'm usually on 80 on archos
23:07:01preglowbut yes
23:07:05preglowh1x0 has decent output
23:07:19preglowit's not ultra high, but that's just fine by me, my ears are more than damaged enough as it is
23:07:29amiconnPlayer is even lower, because of the different scale
23:07:34mirakpreglow: of course there migh be hardware limitations, however I feel that the software put little output gain on the sound decoding
23:07:55mirakfor exemple when you record with line in
23:08:02XShocKi nevger even put it into max.. 20 is extra loud for me in iriver. :)
23:08:06mirakyou can obtain a louder volume
23:08:11mirakreally louder
23:08:16mirakwithout distortion
23:08:59mirakhowever most of the time on amplificators, you can hear distortion when you push the volume to the limits
23:09:07mirakthis really is not the case on the H300
23:10:34preglowthat's because it doesn't do software amplification
23:10:55preglowyou means speakers/headphones distorting?
23:11:12preglowno, it most certainly isn't that loud
23:11:33preglowbut yes, we can make the output louder by digital means some day
23:11:38preglowbut there is a limit
23:11:55T0mas_some time ago...
23:12:04T0mas_I was thinking about a audio compressor
23:12:09T0mas_maybe that's what mirak want's?
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23:16:37preglowno, a compressor is not what he wants
23:16:50preglowhe wants a hard limiter, or a realtime normalizer
23:16:59t0masa compressor is about that...
23:17:12preglowno, not really, heh
23:17:26preglowa compressor changes transients as well
23:17:41preglowbut of course, you can set it to do something like it
23:17:45t0masyeah, but it has the same effect as a hard limiter... only sounding better
23:17:53mirakt0mas: why a compressor ?
23:17:59mirakI want a loudnessor :D
23:18:12t0masyeah, but with a compressor you can put the gain higher
23:18:18t0masand have a louder sound experience...
23:18:24t0maswithout clipping
23:18:34mirakwell I use that (not) to play bass
23:18:40mirakon bass it reduce the attak
23:18:50mirakyou can do some fun things with that
23:18:52t0masyeah, I have it on my guitar amp...
23:19:19mirakwell any way I don't think that even talking about software gain is valid
23:19:34mirakbecause in fact nothing links the sound data to the device
23:19:51mirakexpt maybe the bits to represant amplitude
23:20:11mirakbut you can rescalle the sound range easily
23:20:45mirakon a 16bits coded sound it means that 16bits are used to code the sound volume
23:20:49t0mashm... check the demo of this player:
23:20:57mirakwich mean you can choose between 65536 values
23:21:06t0masit has a really good software audio compressor
23:21:25t0masyou can hear the effect I mean... just use the presets for lounge and radio...
23:21:26mirakI will not recompress all my mp3
23:21:33t0masno, it's totally different
23:21:35mirakI see what you mean
23:21:48t0masit's not file compression... it's audio compression...
23:21:57miraka compressor cuts down the audio pikes
23:22:18t0masso you can put the gain higher... and still have no clipping
23:22:21mirakif I want to change the gain of the mp3 I need to decompress
23:22:27mirakor can I
23:22:30mirakI don't know
23:22:42t0maswell... the compressor should do that while playing
23:22:43preglowi think a plain look ahead hard limiter will do the job better
23:23:10mirakI might as well use an external amplificator
23:23:11t0maspreglow: a hard limiter just cut's off the peak right?
23:23:23mirakt0mas: yes
23:23:38t0mashm... sound's easyer to code...
23:23:42mirakin fact you do what you want
23:23:52preglowit just plain gains, but it looks ahead, and turns down the gain when things will clip
23:23:54mirakmaybe the iriver firmware could be hacked
23:23:57t0masnope... a compressor starts at say 20 db under the top
23:24:15t0masand "compresses" the peaks
23:24:22t0masso not just reduce the clipping parts
23:24:32t0masbut I guess it's a little hard to code that..
23:24:40preglownot really
23:24:40mirakI mean you can set the delay of the compressor
23:25:13mirakwell anyway I don't see the interest of a compressor
23:25:17t0mashm.. I use a compressor + limiter :)
23:25:23miraksince it will alter the original sound
23:25:31mirakguitar is evil
23:25:46preglowif you want more juice and the hardware can't offer more, you don't have a choice, you have to alter the original sound
23:26:12t0maswell... for just playing as lous as possible a limiter is ok...
23:26:13preglowthe only other alternative is a normalizer or something, but that won't pump up the volume as much
23:26:31mirakthat's not a normaliser
23:26:53preglowwhat's not a normalizer?
23:26:54miraka normaliser push the sound with little volume and cut's down the higher
23:27:02mirakit put's the sound between a range in fact
23:27:05t0maseh mirak
23:27:08t0masthat's a compressor
23:27:17preglowa normalizer just fits the audio to the max level
23:27:21t0masnormalizer just makes the average volume the same for all songs
23:27:22preglowplain and simple
23:27:27miraka compressor doesn't augment the low volume
23:27:33t0masit does mirak
23:28:02t0mastake you bass... play a soft note... and listen... then hit it hard... it will output at volumes closer together than without the compressor
23:28:16mirakI don't have a compressor
23:28:20mirakon my amp
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23:28:27mirakI don't have a amp here by the way
23:28:33mirakjust a bass ^^
23:28:40mirakbut I used a compressor already
23:29:00mirakanyway I don't want to normalise or compress
23:29:05mirakI just want more gain
23:29:09preglowbut yes, if i have it my way, rockbox will evolve into dsp effect heaven, so you'll get your effects
23:29:13t0mashm.. for just maximum ear blast a limiter is ok
23:29:14mirakeven if it's software
23:29:15mirakI don't care
23:29:40mirakI don't know why iriver choosed to have such a weak output
23:29:51t0maspreglow: dsp as in winamp plugin dsp? :D
23:29:59preglowt0mas: well, yes, kind of
23:30:08preglowt0mas: just that we're a bit more constrained on the cpu power
23:30:20preglowshould still be more than enough for eqs, filters, reverbs, etc
23:30:30preglowjust not very many at once, heh
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23:30:40t0mashm... sounds good
23:31:09t0masthere is a nice audio control thing
23:32:00mirakt0mas: you see, in winamp, you can increase the gain
23:32:00mirakI want 25 fps video
23:32:28t0masI want more vacation's.... :P
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23:33:05preglowi want just vacation
23:33:13preglowstraight, good, paid vacation, 24/7
23:33:24mirakI have tried Archos headphones on the iriver
23:33:29mirakthere is almost no sound
23:33:32mirakcommoing out
23:33:41t0masmirak... you play on stage to much?
23:33:56t0mashaving a lot of ear damage?
23:34:48t0masI never use the highest volumesettings of my iriver....
23:35:01mirakme either
23:35:13mirakwith the head phones bought with it
23:35:15preglowthen why are you complaining about the volume? :P
23:35:30mirakhowver with other headphnoes I have I must increase the volume by 10
23:35:41mirakbecause I don't like this headphones
23:35:47preglowi never use those earplugs
23:35:52mirakthey don't fit in my hears and doesn't give good basses
23:35:54preglowi never use earplugs, at that
23:36:01t0masI normally use sony plugs
23:36:11preglowi require great big large earphones
23:36:21mirakI want to buy others, but I am not sure iriver will have enough power
23:36:30t0mashm.. but I have the US firmware...
23:36:38mirakpreglow: I don't see how you can have sound ith such big ones
23:36:44mirakI have korean
23:36:55t0mashm... only EU is limited afaik
23:36:55preglowi have much sound
23:36:55mirakI might try US one once
23:37:02mirakI tried it
23:37:06mirakit's not that much lower
23:37:09mirakbut it is
23:37:11t0masnever tried...
23:37:21t0masboucht it... and upgraded to a US version
23:37:29mirakI suspect iriver to have put a limitation on the other firmwares als
23:37:41mirakI guess they don't want to destroy our hears
23:37:43t0masmaybe it's a conspiracy? :P
23:38:08mirakhowever there is some stupid guys that put the music so loud you can hear what they hear
23:38:16mirakthat's their problem
23:38:39mirakI am focusing on this to much
23:38:48*t0mas looks up... what? never did that...
23:38:52mirakthis bother me more than the 10fps thing on video
23:39:14mirakpreglow: what is your player ?
23:39:32mirakI suspect the H100 to have more output volume thne
23:39:33*t0mas has a h120 too
23:39:51mirakit's supposed to be the same chips
23:39:55mirakisn't it ?
23:40:05mirakok by
23:40:08mirakI go to bed
23:40:11t0masgood night
23:40:45mirakI can put the sound to the max without feeling pain
23:40:50mirakthat's not normal ^^
23:41:30*HCl looks at that cyborgsystems site
23:41:38HClmaybe we should import some of those things into cvs?
23:42:11Bagdertry googling for bluechip and rockbox and gpl
23:42:15Bagderread and weap
23:43:23Bagderthen of course, I am the devil
23:44:33HCli don't quite follow
23:44:37HClhis code is public domain?
23:44:47Bagderits not very clear
23:44:48HClcan't we still adopt it and just release it under the gpl then?
23:44:57HCland he can just not release his sources next time
23:44:59BagderI'd rather not
23:45:00amiconnHaha. But: can you ever be sure that all of the developers that gave their realname (except Linus and Zagor) really gave their true name?
23:45:00HClif he doesn't want it gpled
23:45:20Bagderamiconn: of course not
23:46:30*t0mas searches his GPG signature :)
23:47:59*t0mas is going to bed...
23:48:03t0masgood night
23:48:05CamiloI'm not sure what the hangup about GPL is
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23:48:45HClme neither, it seems to me as pd seems rather compatible
23:48:59HClany code he releases under PD can be put under any license by anyone
23:49:12t0mas|zzzdon't think so...
23:49:22HCllet me get the link again >.<;
23:49:30*HCl just closed his browser window
23:49:31t0mas|zzzhe is the author... and only the author can put the code under a license...
23:49:48HClwell, thats the whole thing. pd isn't licensed
23:49:51HClhe's actually giving the code to everyone
23:49:52Camiloexcept when you put something in the public domain - you are giving everyone that privilege
23:49:54HClsaying do whatever you want.
23:50:01HClyes, thats pd.
23:50:02t0mas|zzzbut... on the other hand... microsoft licensed some bsd pd code...
23:50:07t0mas|zzzfor win9x networking
23:50:18Camiloand possibly distancing yourself from legal implications of releasing the code
23:50:34t0mas|zzzhm... maybe just email him?
23:50:36HClso i say pd is rather compatible, only we take all responsibility for code from that point
23:50:48t0mas|zzzand ask him if it's ok to import his code?
23:51:12HClsounds okish to me.
23:51:38HClneed to check who communicated with him earlier
23:51:38t0mas|zzzwell... email him?
23:51:47t0mas|zzzcheck the mailinglist
23:51:54BagderHCl: there's been a loooong series on the list
23:51:59t0mas|zzzfound something about him when googleing
23:52:18HClBagder: yea, i read a big part of it
23:52:32HClBagder: as far as i understand it, pd means anyone can license it under anything
23:52:37HClso i don't see why it would be a problem
23:53:01BagderI actually haven't kept up with his latest moves
23:53:10BagderI'm just SO tired on him and his stuff
23:53:38HClwould you mind if i talked to him and get a clear to import his stuff?
23:54:06Bagderfeel free, I won't block others or the project
23:54:28t0mas|zzzBagder? what's the problem with him?
23:54:31t0mas|zzzjust being annoying?
23:55:18HCli'll just write him a friendly email..
23:55:18CamiloPD is just so 1980s
23:55:29HCli guess.
23:55:30amiconnMost of his code is somewhat outdated anyway, and needs adaption (e.g. the USB handling stuff).
23:55:34Bagderits actually not sure you CAN release anything as PD
23:55:39HCli see the good bits of both pd and gpl
23:55:46HCleither way.
23:55:46t0mas|zzzI see my clock...
23:55:48HClthe main point is.
23:55:49 Join MoosCamaro [0] (
23:55:51t0mas|zzzand I was going to bed...
23:55:54HClif the original author doesn't have a problem with it.
23:55:55t0mas|zzzI remember now ;)
23:55:58MoosCamarohi all
23:55:59HClwe're not gonna have any trouble.
23:56:05t0mas|zzzgood night
23:56:08t0mas|zzzc ya tomorrow
23:56:11HCli experienced that before where like, a person was violating the gpl of dosbox
23:56:19HCland the authors of dosbox refused to do anything about it.
23:56:31HCland then nothing can happen
23:56:43Bagderas amiconn says, his code is very outdated now too
23:56:49XShocKi guess public domain is something that is not licensed by anyone, and anyone can use it.
23:57:01HCli know, but his games, and audio plugins seem at least somewhat interesting enough
23:57:09BagderXShocK: not strictly, but that's how people generally see it
23:57:49BagderI'll shutup and code instead
23:58:22HClthis is actually quite recent? 2005-01-12
23:58:26amiconnThe only really interesting part (imho) is the Othelo game. Audio3587 functionality is part of cvs rockbox for some time (without the graphical candy), and a solitaire game does also already exist
23:58:42HClyea, i'm mostly interested in the graphical candy >.o
23:58:52HCli'm not saying i will import his source
23:58:59HCli mostly want a clear in that its possible to use his source

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