| 00:00:20 | amiconn | the cursor moves downwards until it reaches the bottom, *then* the start of the screen starts to move to keep the cursor visible |
| 00:00:34 | Zagor | exactly |
| 00:00:35 | amiconn | This needs storing the dirstart |
| 00:00:41 | Zagor | no :-) |
| 00:00:46 | amiconn | Huh? |
| 00:00:51 | amiconn | This is how it works now |
| 00:01:08 | Zagor | yes of course we need ONE storage. i'm just saying we don't need one per display. |
| 00:01:17 | amiconn | We do, definitely |
| 00:01:43 | amiconn | ...or maybe you know some kind of magic, show me what it is |
| 00:02:06 | amiconn | ...of course with a different number of lines per display (say 11 and 6) |
| 00:02:48 | amiconn | The thing is that if you start at the top of the list, both displays would have cursorpos = 0 and dirstart = 0 |
| 00:02:58 | Zagor | no magic. simply tell the draw routine how big the display is. if dirstart is 20 and cursor is 28 on a 6-line screen, the draw routine has to increment dirstart (in a local stack variable) until it comes within range of the cursor. |
| 00:02:59 | * | HCl thinks of the icky shared file browsing mode the original firmware has |
| 00:03:28 | HCl | whats against doing it multithreaded? aside from it being possibly "bloated" ? |
| 00:03:36 | amiconn | Move 5 lines down, curpos = 5, ds_main = 0, ds_remote = 0 |
| 00:04:07 | amiconn | Move another line down, and the remote needs to move down its dirstart, but not the main |
| 00:04:18 | Zagor | HCl: that's all the reason I need to be against it. |
| 00:04:23 | amiconn | curpos = 6, ds_main = 0, ds_remote = 1 |
| 00:04:25 | Zagor | amiconn: correct |
| 00:04:37 | amiconn | Now move one up again |
| 00:04:37 | HCl | but with so many advantages of doing it multithreaded? |
| 00:04:42 | HCl | i just don't see the point of being against it. |
| 00:04:46 | HCl | it makes no sense to me. |
| 00:04:48 | TiMiD | 1=6%5 |
| 00:05:01 | amiconn | Both dirstarts need to stay as they are to make it behave natural |
| 00:05:04 | rasher | HCl: do you have makedbj.bat and songdb.jar lying around? They're missing from the wikipage afaik |
| 00:05:11 | HCl | eh... |
| 00:05:16 | HCl | not at the moment |
| 00:05:18 | HCl | songdb.jar |
| 00:05:19 | HCl | is in cvs |
| 00:05:21 | HCl | if i'm not mistaken |
| 00:05:28 | HCl | and if its not, it can be built from cvs |
| 00:05:55 | Zagor | amiconn: now I see your point. |
| 00:06:32 | rasher | HCl: I don't take it 06 Jun 2005 is up to date for songdb.jar? |
| 00:06:38 | HCl | no idea. |
| 00:06:41 | HCl | sorry |
| 00:06:45 | HCl | i'm bit busy at the moment. |
| 00:06:49 | lImbus | amiconn: If the remote would page-flip, it had to flip one page back, and it would be in sync again+ |
| 00:06:56 | HCl | anyone with java should be able to check out cvs |
| 00:07:00 | HCl | and run build under linux |
| 00:07:06 | HCl | and get a proper songdb.jar |
| 00:07:13 | amiconn | Page flip would feel *really* unintuitive imho |
| 00:07:19 | Zagor | lImbus: yes, but it doesn't pageflip it will scroll the whole screen down instead of moving the cursor up. |
| 00:07:26 | lImbus | yes, I don't like it as well :( |
| 00:07:31 | Zagor | ...which I agree is ugly |
| 00:07:47 | linuxstb | Is this up to date? ftp://titania.student.utwente.nl/SongDB.jar |
| 00:07:54 | lImbus | I don't like the current "middle scrolling" on archos as well |
| 00:07:56 | amiconn | ..and page flip won't help if the number of lines isn't exactly like 1:2 |
| 00:08:07 | lImbus | uh, yes |
| 00:08:17 | amiconn | ...which it probably never will |
| 00:08:21 | lImbus | how does iriver solve that problem, btw ? |
| 00:08:52 | amiconn | No idea, didn't try it |
| 00:09:01 | Zagor | lImbus: the browser page flips. the menu behaves like I want it to. |
| 00:09:07 | rasher | linuxstb: sep 17 18:27 - sounds up to date |
| 00:09:30 | amiconn | lImbus: In fact I do like the center scrolling |
| 00:09:31 | HCl | NO |
| 00:09:32 | lImbus | don't they show browser on main and remote at the same time ? |
| 00:09:37 | HCl | don't use the songdb of my ftp! |
| 00:09:44 | rasher | HCl: mmk |
| 00:09:49 | HCl | its an experimental version |
| 00:09:55 | Zagor | lImbus: yes |
| 00:09:55 | HCl | that generates a database with the updated hashes |
| 00:09:58 | HCl | its not suitable at all |
| 00:10:00 | HCl | for end users |
| 00:10:21 | lImbus | (flipping in the one and scrolling in the other is very off imho) |
| 00:11:00 | amiconn | lImbus: The iriver fw *is* unintuitive, and I can't really tell how it behaves with the remote |
| 00:11:15 | lImbus | mhmm |
| 00:11:31 | amiconn | I never used it for real. Only purpose is to flash a new bootloader, or testing specific things |
| 00:11:39 | lImbus | (i need to get one of these irivers, damn) |
| 00:11:41 | HCl | i use the iriver remote all the time |
| 00:11:47 | amiconn | But that would mean I'd have to dig out the remote... |
| 00:11:52 | HCl | remote browses slowly |
| 00:12:14 | HCl | and i dislike the main unit not being independant of the remote |
| 00:13:05 | Zagor | you know what will happen if we make it multithreaded? |
| 00:13:24 | Zagor | people will as for a "sync" option so the screens show the same thing. |
| 00:13:32 | lImbus | yes, I see |
| 00:13:39 | amiconn | Zagor: Why? |
| 00:13:47 | Zagor | and 90% will have it turned on, because that's how they are used to |
| 00:14:00 | amiconn | I don't think so |
| 00:14:10 | lImbus | it would be very unclear to only be able to pause with the part beeing in the wps. |
| 00:14:20 | amiconn | I think there are probably two types of remote users |
| 00:14:28 | Zagor | lImbus: bingo |
| 00:14:42 | lImbus | Zagor: feels like cookies ^^ |
| 00:14:51 | HCl | ? |
| 00:14:54 | amiconn | One type really uses the remote just as a remote, and keeping the main unit hidden for whatever reason |
| 00:14:58 | HCl | Zagor: why would we need a sync option? |
| 00:15:04 | amiconn | The ywouldn't care what the main lcd show |
| 00:15:08 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 00:15:13 | HCl | you could just have the wps on main and remote independantly, and browse independantly |
| 00:15:24 | amiconn | The other type would like to use both displays in a flexible way, like HCl and me |
| 00:15:39 | lImbus | I can see a lot of REALLY nifty feature if the screens are separated (WPS and plugin (specially splitedit or games) at the same time) |
| 00:15:43 | HCl | if you want them to show the same thing, you'd simply put them both on wps o.o |
| 00:15:45 | lImbus | but I see a lot of problems as wekk |
| 00:15:49 | lImbus | s/wekk/sell |
| 00:16:01 | HCl | yea, we'll want to be able to play games while controlling music with the remote. |
| 00:16:40 | lImbus | HCl: that would imply the snyc feature, to get both on WPS without special key presses on the remote after having started and choosen the music with the main |
| 00:16:49 | HCl | what? |
| 00:16:57 | Zagor | HCl: scenario |
| 00:17:13 | HCl | lImbus: i'm not saying the remote should change to wps when the main unit does |
| 00:17:17 | HCl | i'm saying you can set them to the same thing |
| 00:17:18 | HCl | if you want to. |
| 00:17:31 | Zagor | John picks up his player. He holds it in his hand and browses his music. He selects an album and presses PLAY. |
| 00:17:49 | Zagor | he then puts the player in his pocket and fastens the remote on his sleeve |
| 00:17:53 | lImbus | HCl: yay. thats the sync option too many users would use that it's worth to implement the screens separated |
| 00:18:10 | HCl | lImbus: ? |
| 00:18:10 | Zagor | when the phone calls, he presses PLAY on his remote to pause the music |
| 00:18:17 | Zagor | what will happen? |
| 00:18:26 | Zagor | clue: not what John thinks |
| 00:18:34 | HCl | dunno, depends on what the remote was set to. |
| 00:18:35 | amiconn | It would pause the music |
| 00:18:46 | Zagor | amiconn: no, it would start a new track |
| 00:18:49 | amiconn | (if he didn't deliberately go elsewhere) |
| 00:18:53 | amiconn | How? |
| 00:19:04 | Zagor | because he didn't deliberately navigate his remote to the wps screen |
| 00:19:13 | Zagor | so it's left at the browser, since boot |
| 00:19:17 | amiconn | Play would be resume, and you can't resume when it's already playing |
| 00:19:31 | amiconn | ...so play is simply switch-to-wps |
| 00:19:35 | rasher | So it'd do nothing. Still not what john thinks. |
| 00:19:38 | Zagor | surely play on the remote starts a new track? |
| 00:19:53 | amiconn | Why/ how? |
| 00:20:15 | Zagor | amiconn: because there is no joystick with SELECT on the remote |
| 00:20:37 | * | amiconn digs out the remote |
| 00:21:35 | Zagor | at least everybody will think PLAY on the remote starts the track it's standing on. and so do I... |
| 00:21:41 | amiconn | Navi/menu is the equivalent of select |
| 00:21:51 | Zagor | no way |
| 00:22:03 | Zagor | not going to happen |
| 00:22:23 | amiconn | Doing different would be really confusing imho |
| 00:22:35 | HCl | who's good with threads? |
| 00:22:42 | Zagor | doing differently than the LABELLED BUTTONS would be really confusing! |
| 00:22:47 | HCl | i'd like to see an unofficial implementation. |
| 00:23:07 | lImbus | (F*CK. I need a rivier |
| 00:23:10 | Zagor | "you think the iriver fw is confusing? check out rockbox, they map the buttons all over the place. PLAY is MODE SWITCH. and NAVI is PLAY." |
| 00:23:19 | amiconn | Zagor: We wouldn't be doing different, or at least not different from our implementation on the main unit |
| 00:23:40 | Zagor | ...which in itself is way off |
| 00:23:52 | Zagor | and even so it's not an excuse to fubar the remote anyway |
| 00:23:53 | lImbus | what ? play is not play atm ? |
| 00:24:09 | rasher | play is resume/go to wps |
| 00:24:16 | rasher | it's a bit confusing |
| 00:24:19 | HCl | i have to say |
| 00:24:21 | rasher | BUT |
| 00:24:25 | HCl | that i found play to be annoyingly confusing |
| 00:24:28 | HCl | particularly the fact |
| 00:24:33 | rasher | you'd *have* to make the joystick-press play a file |
| 00:24:36 | HCl | that you have to press PLAY rather than stop, to leave filebrowsing |
| 00:24:45 | lImbus | an when I'm in wps ? |
| 00:24:56 | rasher | play is play/pause |
| 00:25:01 | lImbus | kay |
| 00:25:07 | rasher | but not in the browser |
| 00:25:09 | Zagor | I think the Iriver buttons need to be reworked completely. They are totally unintuitive. |
| 00:25:15 | amiconn | I think the current mapping is quite logical |
| 00:25:23 | rasher | Then we need to do it before the official release. |
| 00:25:25 | Zagor | amiconn: yes, because you've learnt it |
| 00:25:29 | amiconn | Nopes |
| 00:25:34 | rasher | I'm already used to it, and I bet a lot of others are. |
| 00:25:44 | Zagor | amiconn: how can PLAY not playing be logical? |
| 00:25:47 | rasher | I'll try doing a user-test with my father or something |
| 00:25:52 | amiconn | Play *is* play |
| 00:25:59 | rasher | See what he expect the buttons to do |
| 00:26:19 | Zagor | ...except if you're playing |
| 00:26:23 | amiconn | Play resumes what was played before, which resembles standard play/pause behaviour |
| 00:26:43 | Zagor | not if you're in the file browser it doesn't... |
| 00:26:53 | amiconn | Yes it does |
| 00:27:04 | amiconn | In the file browser, play is resume |
| 00:27:10 | amiconn | ...which makes sense |
| 00:27:22 | Zagor | I mean it doesn't resemble play/pause. nobody expects pressing PLAY on a song to resume playing ANOTHER song! |
| 00:27:34 | HCl | i have to agree there. |
| 00:27:36 | Zagor | it can be explained. that doesn't mean it makes sense. |
| 00:27:38 | HCl | i've done that. |
| 00:27:48 | HCl | only to find myself going back to the filebrowser |
| 00:27:50 | amiconn | On a standard CD player, Play would play the currently inserted CD, which is roughly equivalent to resume |
| 00:27:54 | HCl | and clicking joystick right instead. |
| 00:28:12 | amiconn | For playing a new CD, you can't use Play, you need to change the CD before |
| 00:28:20 | Zagor | amiconn: come on, not even you can claim it's intuitive that pressing play on a track does NOT play the track! |
| 00:28:44 | amiconn | I actually do *especially* with play being a side button |
| 00:28:46 | Zagor | this is not a cd player! |
| 00:29:01 | lImbus | I think beeig as much close to the original iriver firmware is imprtant as well |
| 00:29:02 | amiconn | ...which is quite disconnected from the display |
| 00:29:15 | lImbus | a user interface does not neet to be logical to technical people knowing the technic background. if there are labels on the buttons, PLEASE try to follow them as much as possible. the archos has a very approach to that. (except ON is resume and filebrowser) |
| 00:29:17 | amiconn | lImbus: I disagree totally |
| 00:29:27 | lImbus | migration users ? |
| 00:29:49 | Zagor | lImbus: I disagree too. the iriver fw is way too confusing to want to mimic. |
| 00:29:52 | amiconn | The iriver firmware is way more unintuitive that we can make rockbox |
| 00:30:04 | amiconn | .ever. |
| 00:30:09 | Zagor | however we can't go on assigning buttons to totally confusing functions like this |
| 00:30:25 | lImbus | okay. I badly need an iriver :-) I thought it would help migrating users. if users will be happy to see another keymapping, then they should |
| 00:31:00 | rasher | a-b, select and record can be freely changed - but play/stop need to do these things in as many places as possible imho |
| 00:31:17 | amiconn | Zagor: I don't see how this is confusing. You navigate through the file list with the joystick. You press it to start playing |
| 00:31:43 | rasher | Well, the iriver's keys do many more things than their labels. Take the "a-b" button. I've never used that for a-b repeat, although that's its main function. |
| 00:31:48 | Zagor | amiconn: it's confusing because the button labeled PLAY does not play. that's all there is to it. |
| 00:32:24 | Zagor | it's the most basic button of all, and we've put another function on it |
| 00:32:25 | lImbus | what could the joystick press be doing else then in the the file browser ? |
| 00:32:25 | amiconn | It *does* play |
| 00:32:44 | Zagor | no, it RESUMES. that is NOT the same thing! |
| 00:32:51 | rasher | But not the currently selected file, which is what would be expected. |
| 00:33:18 | amiconn | It plays the current file... not the current file in the browser though |
| 00:34:09 | Zagor | amiconn: yes. and that is completely impossible for anyone to predict who hasn't read the bloody code! |
| 00:34:38 | Zagor | so the user interface does something the user does not expect == bad user interface |
| 00:35:03 | | Quit tvelocity ("Leaving") |
| 00:35:09 | amiconn | Well, what the user expects is debatable... and there are manuals |
| 00:35:15 | linuxstb | I think if someone picked up an iriver for the first time, they would try and do everything with the joystick. |
| 00:35:23 | linuxstb | Which is basically how Rockbox works. |
| 00:35:50 | amiconn | I think the current assignment in browser and wps are 100% logical |
| 00:35:51 | ender` | i never expected the play button to return me to the wps screen from the file browser |
| 00:35:57 | amiconn | Radio screen is a different thing |
| 00:36:00 | Zagor | amiconn: if the user has to read the manual to use the interface, the interface is bad. |
| 00:36:11 | rasher | (for basic tasks) |
| 00:36:33 | ender` | i tried every other button, but didn't think play would do that - i expected play to behave the same as pressing the joystick |
| 00:36:39 | rasher | At least, I believe some tasks my need to come through experimenting/reading the manual |
| 00:36:39 | Zagor | amiconn: yes, they are logical. in a Spock kind of way. they can be explained, hence they are logical. they are however not intuitive. |
| 00:37:00 | Coldtoast | well, one of the IG reasons ppl go fo rthe ipod is anybody can pick it up and with absolutely no reading whatsoever, be using it effectively within a couple of minutes |
| 00:37:11 | Zagor | rasher: agreed. but not basic things like playing a file... |
| 00:37:13 | Coldtoast | but the h1x0 series has never been for ppl like that |
| 00:37:20 | linuxstb | Coldtoast: That's because there are no features. |
| 00:37:21 | Coldtoast | IG=BIG |
| 00:37:23 | ender` | the original iriver interface isn't bad either |
| 00:37:24 | rasher | Zagor: I agree |
| 00:37:49 | rasher | Coldtoast: However, the ipod does this by cutting down features. |
| 00:37:51 | Coldtoast | linuxstb: the only features regular ppl want are "Play. Stop. FWD, REV" |
| 00:37:59 | linuxstb | I also don't think the ipod is intuitive - a long press on play shuts the player down. |
| 00:38:00 | Coldtoast | etc |
| 00:38:16 | rasher | linuxstb: Haha, excellent! "Press Start to shut down!" |
| 00:38:23 | Coldtoast | linuxstb: ask the general community tho. For them, definitely intuitive |
| 00:38:51 | ender` | that's deep in the subconsciousness - thaks to 10 years of a certain OS :) |
| 00:38:52 | Coldtoast | that's what Apple are good at tho. it's their demographic |
| 00:38:52 | linuxstb | I agree, the ipod is generally easy to use, but if Rockbox only had the same feature set as the ipod, it would also be easy to use. |
| 00:39:20 | amiconn | I can't judge about how the ipod does it cause I never operated one. |
| 00:39:27 | Coldtoast | me either |
| 00:39:34 | Coldtoast | but I know LOADS of ppl with em |
| 00:39:45 | Coldtoast | I've never actually touched an ipod |
| 00:39:51 | amiconn | I doubt that you can make full use of any dap without reading the manual |
| 00:40:26 | rasher | But man, I'm going to try1 |
| 00:40:31 | Coldtoast | I think it should be less of a concern with the h1x0 |
| 00:40:46 | Coldtoast | cos we all read the manual when we got them, right? |
| 00:40:59 | lImbus | no, certainly not |
| 00:41:10 | linuxstb | The basic UI of the ipod is simply a menu - you can't do anything without selecting it from the menu or a sub-menu. |
| 00:41:14 | amiconn | I didn't but the I got it precisely *for* rockbox hacking, nothing else |
| 00:41:21 | Coldtoast | so it's not like ppl are suddenly going to have to do somethign they didn't before. it's really like having a new DAP when you install Rockbox so ppl will be prepared to read |
| 00:41:23 | amiconn | Usually I do read manuals |
| 00:41:35 | lImbus | and (kudos to christi) but I did not read the rockbox-manual before operating the rockbox on my recV1 |
| 00:42:28 | linuxstb | That's something that Rockbox lacks - menus containing the different features. |
| 00:42:37 | amiconn | ? |
| 00:42:48 | linuxstb | Where is the "resume" menu item for example? |
| 00:43:01 | Coldtoast | it might be cool to have a version of the manual ON the player |
| 00:43:02 | Zagor | not a bad point |
| 00:43:08 | rasher | Maybe a "control" menu or something could be added? |
| 00:43:11 | lImbus | yes |
| 00:43:12 | rasher | Or.. ehm |
| 00:43:15 | rasher | that's a bad name |
| 00:43:23 | rasher | Actions |
| 00:43:25 | rasher | Maybe |
| 00:43:30 | amiconn | Why would you bury an important feature like resume in a menu?? cumbersome... |
| 00:43:43 | rasher | amiconn: Why not have it there? |
| 00:43:44 | Zagor | I don't think the "Rockbox has more features" is a very good excuse for a difficult UI. |
| 00:43:52 | Zagor | amiconn: as a complement |
| 00:44:16 | lImbus | (I am sometimes searching for a feature on different key and key-combos) |
| 00:45:11 | Zagor | anyway, I gotta go to bed. see you guys. |
| 00:45:19 | amiconn | I don't think the rockbox ui is difficult (in general) |
| 00:45:35 | rasher | I don't think any of us are really qualified to say |
| 00:45:45 | amiconn | Some button combos are, maybe. Those are candidates to be put in the menu |
| 00:46:07 | | Join Paul_The_Nerd [0] (n=paulthen@cpe-66-68-93-2.austin.res.rr.com) |
| 00:46:11 | lImbus | see you zag |
| 00:46:32 | Zagor | amiconn: in general, I agree with you. I just think some button assignments on the iriver port should be reevaluated :-) |
| 00:46:33 | rasher | a) we're used to it (more or less) b) we're "programmer" kind of types, hence we're more likely to adapt because we understand the workings behind the scenes |
| 00:46:35 | * | Zagor hits the sack now |
| 00:47:42 | amiconn | rasher: Maybe we devs are biased... |
| 00:48:07 | amiconn | Some things might be debatable, but each mapping has its pros and cons |
| 00:48:09 | Paul_The_Nerd | Just wanted to say, on reading the log, I found rockbox confusing upon first install, but once I discovered the play vs. select difference, I rather liked it better. It felt more intuitive, and had I never seen the button labels prior, it's how I would've expected to do thinks, front button being primary. |
| 00:48:12 | lImbus | rasher: see my comment on 29:15 |
| 00:48:39 | Paul_The_Nerd | *things |
| 00:48:59 | lImbus | probably we should provide stickers renaming the buttons ? |
| 00:48:59 | amiconn | Like HCl finds it confusing that Stop doesn't leave the file browser: |
| 00:49:19 | Paul_The_Nerd | See, I always think of the file browser as the bottom level... |
| 00:49:25 | amiconn | Stop is supposed to stop playback, right? It does (or should, iirc this is currently broken on H1x0) |
| 00:49:25 | rasher | lImbus: stickers don't last. Heck, even the painting's come off mine by now |
| 00:49:30 | Paul_The_Nerd | So you can't "leave" it. You can "go back to it" or "launch something from it with a button" |
| 00:49:40 | Paul_The_Nerd | So, stop stops playback when you're there. |
| 00:50:04 | lImbus | rasher: I mean we should make clear to the user that play is simply not only play anymore. |
| 00:50:09 | amiconn | Or, like people want to be able to leave the file browser with Left |
| 00:50:17 | lImbus | and introducting screen on the first install could be enough |
| 00:50:28 | lImbus | s/and/an |
| 00:50:33 | amiconn | The technical reason against this is that the file browser is the top level, so you can't leave it |
| 00:50:47 | Paul_The_Nerd | Again amiconn, that's the result of thinking of the menus as the furthest back you can go, rather than the file tree. |
| 00:50:51 | Paul_The_Nerd | Yeah |
| 00:50:53 | Paul_The_Nerd | As you said. |
| 00:51:20 | amiconn | But, the usability reason against it is that it would disable the possibility to go to the root by just clicking Left multiple times |
| 00:51:45 | * | rasher thinks of a way to introduce help |
| 00:51:51 | Paul_The_Nerd | Yeah, makes sense. If you just hit left as many or more times than you have folder-depth, you know where you're starting from. |
| 00:52:28 | Paul_The_Nerd | Also, I'd like to place my insignificant vote in favore of independent screens on the Remote and Unit. |
| 00:52:34 | amiconn | I actually did think about the button assignment multiple times. I don't see a better mapping for wps and browser on iriver |
| 00:52:40 | rasher | Maybe in each context menu, you could have a "help" entry, which would go back to the screen, and list "overlaid" on the screen which buttons do what? |
| 00:52:41 | Paul_The_Nerd | *favor, ugh, I can't type today. |
| 00:52:47 | rasher | But.. :-\ |
| 00:53:26 | | Quit Coldtoast ("Peace and Protection 4.22") |
| 00:53:47 | lImbus | rasher: Why not have a help key that makes the first aid when pressing for more than a second. it would then explain the key's meaning in the very situation |
| 00:54:14 | rasher | lImbus: I don't understand that explanation |
| 00:54:24 | lImbus | like F1 in windows |
| 00:54:29 | lImbus | context help |
| 00:54:38 | Paul_The_Nerd | Does the record button do anything yet? |
| 00:54:44 | lImbus | pressing a-b for 3 seconds gets the key explanation page |
| 00:54:45 | Paul_The_Nerd | I can't recall ever using it, much. |
| 00:54:49 | rasher | but then you'd need to know that key |
| 00:55:01 | rasher | Better have it in a menu if you ask me |
| 00:55:16 | amiconn | Paul_The_Nerd: Not yet, but I think the record button should be reserved for the recording function |
| 00:55:28 | lImbus | both. key and menu. that's right, but then we can mess up the rest after having explained it once to the user |
| 00:56:03 | Paul_The_Nerd | I was going to suggest hold record + another button shows you context-related help to what that other button does. |
| 00:56:14 | Paul_The_Nerd | A press of record on its own could still go to recording just fine. |
| 00:56:16 | * | amiconn doesn't understand the new wiki diffs :/ |
| 00:56:16 | rasher | Paul_The_Nerd: that can't be done |
| 00:56:20 | Paul_The_Nerd | Oh, right. |
| 00:56:26 | Paul_The_Nerd | Wait... it can't? |
| 00:56:28 | rasher | No keycombos with record |
| 00:56:31 | Paul_The_Nerd | Oh. |
| 00:56:37 | amiconn | What are lines without red << or green >> supposed to tell me? |
| 00:56:37 | rasher | You can only do keycombos with Play |
| 00:56:38 | lImbus | ouch |
| 00:56:43 | rasher | amiconn: context |
| 00:56:57 | rasher | I think.. but sometimes I can't figure it out |
| 00:57:02 | rasher | Link? |
| 00:57:27 | amiconn | http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/rdiff/Main/IriverPort?rev1=1.143&rev2=1.142 |
| 00:57:49 | | Quit Domonoky (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 00:57:55 | amiconn | First it says line: 82 to 82, with 3 unmarked lines underneath |
| 00:58:10 | amiconn | Then another heading, Changed: |
| 00:58:12 | rasher | yeah, definately context, but the linenumbers are weird |
| 00:58:33 | rasher | Well, they're showing line 82 to 82 as context, and then after that, something's changed |
| 00:58:34 | amiconn | Then actual changes, then again lines without markings, and without heading/ comment |
| 00:58:51 | rasher | Strange setup |
| 00:58:55 | amiconn | Hmm. |
| 00:59:12 | rasher | They should have "line 82 to 85" for the whole thing, then indent it and mark the changed line |
| 00:59:13 | | Quit Strath ("Client closed") |
| 00:59:26 | amiconn | Even funnnier: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/rdiff/Main/IriverBoot?rev1=1.105&rev2=1.104 |
| 01:00 |
| 01:00:00 | amiconn | The trailing context is shown under "Deleted" |
| 01:00:11 | lImbus | holla |
| 01:00:22 | rasher | The first line may have been caused because I added a link at the bottom by accident, then deleted it again |
| 01:00:30 | rasher | And twiki merges edits |
| 01:01:11 | rasher | Anyway |
| 01:01:52 | rasher | Wow, the new misticriver is hideous |
| 01:01:56 | * | amiconn just realised he has songdb.jar and makedbj.bat lying around |
| 01:02:02 | rasher | recent |
| 01:02:04 | rasher | recent? |
| 01:02:04 | amiconn | Downloaded 2005-08-18 |
| 01:02:22 | amiconn | Dunno whether that's recent enough |
| 01:03:02 | HCl | sounds good |
| 01:04:32 | HCl | i'd say the best way to be sure |
| 01:04:37 | HCl | is to build a fresh songdb.jar |
| 01:04:39 | HCl | from the cvs |
| 01:04:53 | amiconn | It's definitely not the same as the current wiki version |
| 01:05:13 | amiconn | wiki version is 608KB, my copy is 637KB |
| 01:05:20 | HCl | sounds big. |
| 01:05:28 | HCl | my last songdb.jar build was 530k |
| 01:05:33 | amiconn | Me upload |
| 01:08:45 | * | HCl goes to sleep. |
| 01:08:52 | | Quit dpassen1 () |
| 01:09:42 | amiconn | rasher: What is "Maybe." at the bottom of MissingAttachments related to? |
| 01:09:58 | rasher | That I wasn't sure they were outdated |
| 01:10:12 | rasher | I hadn't noticed that makedbj.bat wasn't even there |
| 01:10:25 | amiconn | Yes, but does it relate to the songdb files, or the following video stuff? |
| 01:11:00 | rasher | Ah, the former |
| 01:11:15 | amiconn | Okay, updated |
| 01:11:48 | rasher | Lots of iaudio stuff missing |
| 01:11:48 | | Quit ender` (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) |
| 01:12:28 | amiconn | Yes, and no austriancoder around for quite some time now |
| 01:12:28 | rasher | But considering how much was missing at first, this is pretty good |
| 01:12:37 | rasher | Yeah, wonder where he went to |
| 01:15:06 | lImbus | (me is going to bed very soon. |
| 01:15:10 | | Quit webguest18 ("CGI:IRC") |
| 01:15:11 | lImbus | argl |
| 01:15:44 | lImbus | ( the '(' is very next to '/' on the german keyboard. and it's dark in my room :-) |
| 01:16:17 | linuxstb | Just to annoy some people on the mailing list: http://www.davechapman.f2s.com/rockbox/DSC00368.JPG |
| 01:17:05 | rasher | Excellent |
| 01:17:06 | lImbus | Hehe. Dave, is that a iPpod photo showing a jpg ? :-) |
| 01:17:25 | rasher | Wouldn't fit the other way round? |
| 01:17:49 | linuxstb | It's a new 60GB color ipod (the type with unsupported LCD in ipodlinux) running my work-in-progress bootloader |
| 01:18:28 | linuxstb | The problem with the LCD is that we don't know the commands to set the update region for the LCD. So I can only write to the area where the apple boot-up logo appears :). |
| 01:18:41 | lImbus | WOW |
| 01:19:05 | | Join tvelocity [0] (n=tony@ipa112.2.tellas.gr) |
| 01:23:30 | * | Paul_The_Nerd would really enjoy a Nano running Rockbox one day. |
| 01:23:43 | rasher | linuxstb: are any of the ipl guys working on this problem? |
| 01:24:19 | linuxstb | rasher: Yes, I think leachbj is working on it - I think the new LCD is the same in the Nano. So it's the main hurdle to getting ipodlinux running on the Nano as well. |
| 01:24:51 | rasher | Well isn't that nice |
| 01:25:34 | linuxstb | It really shouldn't be that hard to get Rockbox working. I haven't spent much time on it, but now I have the LCD partially working, I can continue with the rest of the tasks. |
| 01:25:38 | Paul_The_Nerd | The only flash-based player I've got is a dinky little muvo someone gave me. |
| 01:25:52 | rasher | I'm going to be insanely jealous once rockbox runs on ipod :-\ |
| 01:25:53 | Paul_The_Nerd | But I keep wanting one, and the Nano seems like it might be a good choice. |
| 01:26:26 | rasher | linuxstb: fixing rockbox in the "apple logo" window and let the ipl guys work out the lcd? |
| 01:26:48 | linuxstb | Yes. |
| 01:26:53 | rasher | Sounds like a plan |
| 01:27:14 | linuxstb | I'll have Rockbox running in a 78x100 pixel window - but with 16-bit colour :) |
| 01:27:24 | Paul_The_Nerd | Hahaha, nice |
| 01:27:34 | amiconn | For me, rockbox on ipod is only interesting from a hacker point of view - "yes, it can be done" |
| 01:27:48 | amiconn | I wouldn't want one |
| 01:27:51 | rasher | The rockbox is nice in my eyes because it's flat |
| 01:27:57 | rasher | and slim |
| 01:28:16 | linuxstb | I prefer the ipod hardware to the H140. Mainly because of the colour LCD and smaller size (about 2/3 the depth with no joystick sticking out). |
| 01:28:18 | rasher | I'm mainly thinking form factor and possibly touch-wheel, but I've never actually used that |
| 01:28:28 | rasher | Yeah, the joystick annoys me. |
| 01:28:42 | amiconn | lImbus: Hehe, the colour lcd is exactly a reson why I do not want an ipod |
| 01:28:44 | linuxstb | I don't really use the FM, and I don't record. |
| 01:28:49 | Paul_The_Nerd | Aaah |
| 01:28:53 | amiconn | ...the wheel thingy being another |
| 01:28:54 | linuxstb | ... or the optical I/O. |
| 01:29:03 | amiconn | I don't like the H1x0 joystick either |
| 01:29:08 | linuxstb | Yes - the wheel thing is a drawback. |
| 01:29:17 | amiconn | I prefer plain & simple buttons |
| 01:29:29 | Paul_The_Nerd | Are there any other flash based players out there that might be likely Rockbox targets? |
| 01:29:38 | linuxstb | There are five real buttons on the ipod (plus a hold switch). |
| 01:29:51 | amiconn | Paul_The_Nerd: Rockbox does run on flash players... |
| 01:30:50 | Paul_The_Nerd | Aren't the ondios very limited in storage capacity? |
| 01:30:53 | Paul_The_Nerd | As in, onboard? |
| 01:30:59 | linuxstb | amiconn: Why don't you want a colour LCD? |
| 01:31:07 | rasher | Visibility |
| 01:31:18 | rasher | Ehm, that's not the right word |
| 01:31:22 | amiconn | It draws more power, isn't readable w/o backlight, and is simply unnecessary on a dap |
| 01:31:56 | amiconn | I would also prefer my mobile phone not having a colour lcd, but those are rare these days |
| 01:32:24 | amiconn | Well, if the colour lcd type that is readable w/o backlight would become more widespread.... |
| 01:32:51 | amiconn | Still unnecessary for any of the main uses of a dap though |
| 01:32:56 | | Join Zoric [0] (n=zoric85@regulus3.student.UU.SE) |
| 01:33:18 | amiconn | FM is nice to have for me, recording being somewhat important (although I don't record often) |
| 01:33:49 | amiconn | Digital i/o isn't important for me atm, but that may change |
| 01:34:04 | linuxstb | The colour LCD wasn't the reason I bought an ipod (I thought the same as you) - but now I've seen it, I much perfer it to the H140's display. |
| 01:34:46 | amiconn | I did have a look at a colour LCD DAP |
| 01:34:50 | amiconn | (H3x0) |
| 01:35:04 | amiconn | Didn't like the screen |
| 01:35:14 | rasher | FM is a joke to me - I can only really reach local stations which, quite frankly suck. All 2 of them. |
| 01:35:27 | amiconn | rasher: Ondio FM is better... |
| 01:35:28 | linuxstb | But I also think it's how well the UI is designed - Apple have kept the use of colour to a minimum (i.e. very few different colours), so it works well. |
| 01:36:03 | linuxstb | It's mainly just black text on a white background with a blue scrollbar. |
| 01:36:33 | | Quit tvelocity ("Leaving") |
| 01:36:41 | linuxstb | The status bar is in a different colour (gradient-filled) with a green battery icon. |
| 01:39:22 | amiconn | rasher: I wonder what's wrong with the iriver FM. Bad antenna hookup perhaps?? |
| 01:40:42 | amiconn | rasher: Did you try with the remote or without? |
| 01:43:38 | rasher | With |
| 01:43:44 | rasher | But I think both goes |
| 01:44:30 | rasher | But.. there are not a lot of radio stations near me in the first place. However, other pocket-sized radios have been working better. |
| 01:45:10 | rasher | I'll try with and without remote, with different headphones |
| 01:48:42 | rasher | Moving around changes reception strength a lot |
| 01:48:47 | rasher | So I may be in a very bad spot |
| 01:49:05 | rasher | In my apartment, that is.. haven't tested radio other places |
| 01:51:48 | rasher | A periodic table.. now there's a handy plugin |
| 01:52:19 | rasher | except I guess, if you need a periodic table, you usually have one |
| 01:53:09 | rasher | I *think* I get better reception without the remote |
| 01:53:13 | rasher | but it's hard to tell |
| 01:53:40 | rasher | yeah, I do |
| 01:53:56 | | Quit markun () |
| 01:55:17 | rasher | These headphones give better reception, maybe because of the longer wire |
| 01:56:43 | * | rasher wonders if his codecs were not updated |
| 01:56:54 | rasher | Still getting sluggish interface with alac |
| 01:57:49 | rasher | oh sheesh |
| 01:57:56 | rasher | forgot to unmount/sync |
| 02:00 |
| 02:03:30 | | Join tvelocity [0] (n=tony@ipa112.2.tellas.gr) |
| 02:03:40 | linuxstb | rasher: I don't think the alac is as responsive as other codecs, but it's a huge improvement over the first version. |
| 02:04:12 | rasher | linuxstb: Well, I hadn't updated the version - still using an old rockbox :-\ |
| 02:04:25 | linuxstb | That will explain it then... |
| 02:04:36 | rasher | Indeedly |
| 02:05:00 | rasher | Unmounting helps when using drives mounted with "async" |
| 02:05:23 | rasher | oops, config bump |
| 02:05:58 | rasher | Yeah, much better |
| 02:06:14 | linuxstb | Do you agree that it is still slightly sluggish? |
| 02:06:16 | rasher | still sluggish if you turn the music up more than ~30 steps at the wrong time |
| 02:06:52 | linuxstb | OK, it seems I will need to start yielding inside some of the loops in libalac. Not fun. |
| 02:07:05 | | Quit tvelocity (Client Quit) |
| 02:07:06 | rasher | I solved the "mystery" of the podzilla fonts using an old version of Rockbox fonts |
| 02:07:27 | rasher | Seems that the person wrote the initial implementation for Rockbox is the author of Microwindows |
| 02:07:34 | rasher | which podzilla is based on |
| 02:08:13 | rasher | using. |
| 02:08:57 | linuxstb | Ah. So Rockbox is using the Microwindows fonts, rather than podzilla using the rockbox fonts? |
| 02:09:20 | rasher | Yeah, pretty much |
| 02:09:25 | amiconn | Rockbox gfx is based on microwindows as well |
| 02:09:26 | | Quit cYmen ("zZz") |
| 02:09:59 | | Join ashridah [0] (i=ashridah@220-253-121-159.VIC.netspace.net.au) |
| 02:12:29 | rasher | amiconn: any ideas how to handle input in hebrew/russian/etc? |
| 02:12:44 | rasher | Currently people can only input in 8859-1 :-\ |
| 02:13:47 | amiconn | Not really |
| 02:14:13 | rasher | Creating a rockbox_default-8859-8 ? |
| 02:14:20 | rasher | and letting the user set charset in an option somewhere? |
| 02:14:25 | rasher | Oh darn, it's compiled in |
| 02:14:27 | rasher | won't work |
| 02:14:29 | amiconn | The default font is builtin |
| 02:14:32 | rasher | Yeah. |
| 02:15:07 | rasher | How will that work with unicode, I wonder |
| 02:15:11 | rasher | huge font to build in |
| 02:15:13 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 02:16:26 | amiconn | I don't think this is an option |
| 02:17:33 | rasher | Nah, just keep it like now |
| 02:18:00 | * | rasher stabs gnome people |
| 02:18:05 | amiconn | I think the builtin font just needs to support iso8859-1 (for displaying error messages if no font is found, debug menu etc) |
| 02:18:10 | rasher | yeah |
| 02:18:23 | rasher | But should not be used for the vkeyboard |
| 02:18:32 | amiconn | All other screens should adapt to various fonts |
| 02:18:57 | amiconn | (perhaps having a fixed-width font for certain purposes) |
| 02:19:00 | rasher | of course, we don't want to show all of unicode in the vkeyboard, the user should pick a default "section" or whatever those are called in unicode-lingo |
| 02:19:33 | amiconn | The keyboard layout could be defined by a configuration file |
| 02:19:47 | amiconn | ...or better still, a section of the language file |
| 02:20:28 | rasher | That seems sensible |
| 02:20:43 | rasher | Although I expect I'd want a english-dk version |
| 02:20:44 | amiconn | Each vkeyboard line could be simply a language string |
| 02:20:57 | rasher | Unless english uses 8859-15 |
| 02:21:01 | rasher | Which I guess is sensible |
| 02:21:32 | amiconn | If a string isn't included in the language file, rockbox automagically uses the builtin string, which is usually english |
| 02:21:38 | | Join tvelocity [0] (n=tony@ipa112.2.tellas.gr) |
| 02:21:43 | rasher | That reminds me |
| 02:21:53 | rasher | Does the configure language-chosing thing work now? |
| 02:22:04 | rasher | At some point it didn't matter what you answered to that question |
| 02:22:35 | amiconn | Hmm, the simple method might not work that well |
| 02:22:45 | rasher | Which? |
| 02:23:09 | amiconn | (1) The number of chars visible depends on the font, if we allow the vkeyboard to use a loadable font |
| 02:23:38 | amiconn | (2) The number of keyboard lines / pages depends on the language |
| 02:23:49 | * | rasher thinks |
| 02:23:54 | amiconn | Chinese will definitely use more pages than english |
| 02:24:06 | rasher | Chinese will need some zany input-method |
| 02:24:35 | rasher | They do some crazy thing to use semi-regular keyboards I think |
| 02:26:39 | amiconn | Hmm, perhaps we should keep one default font. |
| 02:27:17 | amiconn | ...with a fixed size, and full unicode. Only the 8859-1 part would be builtin, the full version would reside on disk |
| 02:27:49 | amiconn | Then the language string size method would work well, |
| 02:28:18 | amiconn | and it would be easy to adapt it to different screen sizes with v2, as that allows different strings per model |
| 02:29:20 | amiconn | We'd still need to solve the different-number-of-strings problem... |
| 02:32:02 | | Part Zoric |
| 02:42:14 | rasher | Maybe with keyboard scrolling/flipping? |
| 02:42:50 | * | rasher has a lengthy argument with hal-device-manager about how to mount his iriver |
| 02:55:13 | * | rasher wins |
| 02:56:20 | | Join webguest82 [0] (n=d86bc5da@labb.contactor.se) |
| 02:58:30 | rasher | or maybe not |
| 03:00 |
| 03:00:16 | | Join cYmen [0] (n=cymen@nat-ph3-wh.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de) |
| 03:01:19 | rasher | There we go. |
| 03:10:03 | | Quit webguest82 ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") |
| 03:11:44 | | Quit tvelocity ("Leaving") |
| 03:18:03 | rasher | amiconn: I don't understand your last commit message? |
| 03:45:34 | Paul_The_Nerd | O_O |
| 03:45:47 | Paul_The_Nerd | I just updated to the newest daily build, and suddenly my Wps no longer shows any images. |
| 03:49:55 | rasher | When did you last update? |
| 03:51:31 | Paul_The_Nerd | Maybe a week? |
| 03:51:46 | rasher | Hm, that's strange |
| 03:51:57 | rasher | Can you show an image line of your wps? |
| 03:52:00 | rasher | well, you can |
| 03:52:01 | rasher | do it |
| 03:52:19 | Paul_The_Nerd | %x5|Boxes.bmp|1|8| |
| 03:52:29 | rasher | Yeah, that's wrong |
| 03:52:33 | Paul_The_Nerd | I don't even know if the syntax is good. I just slightly modified the JamesGao one. |
| 03:52:48 | rasher | you need to do %xd|a|Boxes.bmp|1|8| |
| 03:52:59 | Paul_The_Nerd | But the image portion I didn't. I just threw in an extra alignment tag, and took out the peakmeter |
| 03:53:28 | rasher | Sounds very strange if it was working with a daily from a week ago |
| 03:53:37 | rasher | this syntax hasn't been valid for a few weeks |
| 03:53:44 | Paul_The_Nerd | Hrm |
| 03:53:54 | Paul_The_Nerd | It's possible I downloaded it but forgot to copy it over. |
| 03:54:09 | rasher | http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/CustomWPS#Using_images |
| 03:55:01 | Paul_The_Nerd | That actually doesn't have the d in %xd. |
| 03:55:09 | rasher | ah |
| 03:55:14 | rasher | right, I'm misremembering |
| 03:55:24 | Paul_The_Nerd | The image isn't preloaded |
| 03:55:26 | Paul_The_Nerd | But I got it. |
| 03:55:37 | rasher | yeah, I was mixing the two up |
| 03:55:56 | Paul_The_Nerd | Thanksd |
| 03:56:04 | rasher | glad to help |
| 03:56:09 | Paul_The_Nerd | I can write simple plugins, but never even looked at the WPS code. =/ |
| 03:56:47 | Paul_The_Nerd | I found one that looked good, modified it as soon as the multi-align patch was in, then assumed I'd never need to know it. |
| 03:57:31 | rasher | The wps code is approaching line-noise each time a patch goes in |
| 03:58:14 | rasher | It's simple enough, just not very entertaining |
| 04:00 |
| 04:00:48 | Paul_The_Nerd | If you could define how it worked simply by saying it, what would you want from it? |
| 04:05:27 | | Join QT [0] (i=as@madwifi/users/area51) |
| 04:15:15 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 04:15:18 | rasher | Hm? |
| 04:16:04 | | Quit QT_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 04:25:55 | | Quit Sucka ("a bird in the bush is worth two in your house") |
| 04:30:37 | | Quit Paul_The_Nerd ("Chatzilla 0.9.68a [Firefox 1.0.7/20050915]") |
| 04:35:14 | ashridah | pity the ssam demo only has one level |
| 04:36:27 | rasher | ssam? |
| 04:41:18 | | Join paugh [0] (n=kickback@2001:5c0:8fff:ffff:8000:0:3e03:6822) |
| 04:44:41 | ashridah | serious sam 2 |
| 04:45:48 | rasher | Ah. |
| 04:46:27 | * | rasher laments the lack of grayscale support in the sims |
| 04:58:05 | | Quit paugh ("Leaving") |
| 04:59:05 | * | rasher pines for nestable C-style comments |
| 05:00 |
| 05:02:53 | | Join random_man [0] (n=d1ced0ec@labb.contactor.se) |
| 05:03:22 | random_man | hello |
| 05:05:07 | rasher | hello, random man |
| 05:05:31 | random_man | i think i found a bug but not sure and speaking of rasher. you do the patched versions of rockbox right? |
| 05:07:55 | rasher | I do |
| 05:08:32 | rasher | What's the bug? |
| 05:09:28 | random_man | when i go to turn status bar on it shows status bar in the menu but when i go to wps screen it does not show the status bar |
| 05:10:33 | rasher | Yeah, there's something weird going on with that |
| 05:10:51 | rasher | I had to manually apply the "wps tag for show/hide status bar" patch |
| 05:10:54 | rasher | I might have messed it up |
| 05:11:02 | rasher | Or the patch is buggy |
| 05:11:17 | random_man | did you add the thing that shows the hold button on remote in the status bar? |
| 05:11:19 | rasher | I'll try the patch on a clean build and see if it's buggy |
| 05:11:28 | rasher | Yeah |
| 05:11:37 | rasher | I didn't write the patch though |
| 05:11:49 | random_man | so if you have that in ur wps the %wd and then you go to main menu or something the status bar will show up but wont on wps screen? |
| 05:11:58 | rasher | Yes |
| 05:12:18 | random_man | thast kinda a cool feature |
| 05:12:21 | rasher | Agreed |
| 05:12:47 | rasher | I'll have a look-see about whether it's my fault, or the patch is buggy |
| 05:13:02 | random_man | ok |
| 05:15:11 | random_man | nice talking to ya. i have to go. later |
| 05:15:41 | rasher | Bye |
| 05:15:47 | | Quit random_man ("CGI:IRC") |
| 05:27:32 | | Nick TiMiD is now known as TiMiD[sofaraway] (n=TiMiD[FD@asgard.valombre.net) |
| 05:35:37 | | Quit cYmen ("zZz") |
| 06:00 |
| 06:15:19 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
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| 07:00 |
| 07:16:49 | | Quit amiconn (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 07:16:49 | | Nick amiconn_ is now known as amiconn (n=jens@p54BD7279.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 08:00 |
| 08:07:08 | | Join ender` [0] (i=ychat@84.52.165.220) |
| 08:09:48 | | Join paugh [0] (n=kickback@2001:5c0:8fff:ffff:8000:0:3e03:6822) |
| 08:10:14 | | Join Lost-ash [0] (i=ashridah@220-253-122-199.VIC.netspace.net.au) |
| 08:10:17 | | Quit ashridah (Nick collision from services.) |
| 08:10:35 | | Nick Lost-ash is now known as ashridah (i=ashridah@220-253-122-199.VIC.netspace.net.au) |
| 08:13:48 | | Join LinusN [0] (n=linus@labb.contactor.se) |
| 08:15:22 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 08:17:22 | ashridah | linusn |
| 08:17:28 | LinusN | hi |
| 08:19:31 | amiconn | morning |
| 08:20:09 | LinusN | morning amiconn |
| 08:24:20 | | Join einhirn [0] (i=Miranda@bsod.rz.tu-clausthal.de) |
| 08:32:36 | | Quit gromit` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 08:34:39 | | Join gromit` [0] (n=gromit`@ras75-5-82-234-244-69.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 08:46:11 | | Join Vladoman_ [0] (n=Vladoman@p54A7CB74.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 08:56:59 | | Nick paugh is now known as AliasCoffee (n=kickback@2001:5c0:8fff:ffff:8000:0:3e03:6822) |
| 08:59:11 | | Quit Vladoman (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 09:00 |
| 09:13:01 | | Join preglow [0] (n=thomjoha@hekta.edt.aft.hist.no) |
| 09:13:46 | | Join Paul_The_Nerd [0] (n=paulthen@cpe-66-68-93-2.austin.res.rr.com) |
| 09:25:41 | | Quit Paul_The_Nerd ("Chatzilla 0.9.68a [Firefox 1.0.7/20050915]") |
| 09:38:01 | | Quit Vladoman_ ("ChatZilla 0.9.61 [Mozilla rv:1.7.7/20050414]") |
| 09:51:55 | | Quit AliasCoffee ("Leaving") |
| 09:58:09 | | Join Lynx_ [0] (n=lynx@tina-10-4.genetik.uni-koeln.de) |
| 09:58:26 | Zagor | LinusN: how's your head today? ;) |
| 09:58:33 | LinusN | aching |
| 09:59:35 | LinusN | (not because of the wine consumption, but because of my ears not coping with the pressure difference when flying) |
| 09:59:42 | Zagor | ow |
| 10:00 |
| 10:00:07 | preglow | mine are aching from wine consumption... |
| 10:00:13 | preglow | mine is, at least |
| 10:00:18 | Zagor | your heads? ;) |
| 10:00:38 | LinusN | anyway, 4 days of more or less constant wine and beer drinking makes you pretty tired... :-) |
| 10:00:56 | preglow | a weekend worked pretty fine for me too |
| 10:01:04 | preglow | they have very nice beer in denmark, apparently |
| 10:02:10 | preglow | being a beer fanatic, i had to try every type i found, and there was no shortage |
| 10:06:45 | HCl | hi |
| 10:06:54 | HCl | hello my alcoholics |
| 10:06:57 | HCl | sup? :p |
| 10:07:14 | preglow | haha |
| 10:07:20 | preglow | all's good |
| 10:07:23 | HCl | :) |
| 10:07:50 | preglow | back home again, with a cup of tea in front of me and chiptunes blasting out of the speakers |
| 10:10:13 | * | preglow tries alac |
| 10:15:25 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 10:17:20 | preglow | feels like it could use some optimisation |
| 10:20:20 | | Join Paul_The_Nerd [0] (n=paulthen@cpe-66-68-93-2.austin.res.rr.com) |
| 10:33:44 | | Quit Paul_The_Nerd ("Chatzilla 0.9.68a [Firefox 1.0.7/20050915]") |
| 10:49:13 | | Join [IDC]Dragon [0] (n=d90a3255@labb.contactor.se) |
| 10:50:02 | [IDC]Dragon | Hi |
| 10:50:26 | HCl | morning |
| 10:52:35 | * | HCl goes to build a clean songdb.jar |
| 10:53:41 | * | HCl prods rasher |
| 10:53:49 | HCl | rasher: SongDB.jar on my ftp should be fine |
| 11:00 |
| 11:08:11 | * | Zagor just signed for a huge Dual Xeon server |
| 11:08:38 | Zagor | christ, it's heavy |
| 11:08:58 | preglow | for whom? :P |
| 11:09:05 | Zagor | for meee! :-) |
| 11:09:32 | preglow | argh, there's a computer on the network that has zero network usage, but still manages to lag everything to hell when it's connected |
| 11:09:41 | amiconn | Zagor: Why not opteron? |
| 11:10:42 | Zagor | amiconn: it's a Dell and they don't carry AMD unfortunately. |
| 11:11:42 | preglow | didn't they start considering it? |
| 11:11:52 | | Nick solexx_ is now known as solexx (n=jrschulz@d157170.adsl.hansenet.de) |
| 11:12:10 | Zagor | perhaps. they didn't have it when I ordered anyway. |
| 11:16:45 | preglow | no, i don't think they've got them yet |
| 11:17:02 | preglow | but they're considering selling amd, or some such |
| 11:17:53 | amiconn | HP carries AMD |
| 11:23:39 | | Join Febs [0] (n=Febs@207-172-122-81.c3-0.rdl-ubr4.trpr-rdl.pa.cable.rcn.com) |
| 11:24:32 | | Join markun [0] (n=karl@bastards.student.ipv6.utwente.nl) |
| 11:27:36 | | Join Vladoman [0] (n=Vladoman@p54A7CB74.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 11:40:04 | [IDC]Dragon | Vladoman: bouncing in, or for real? |
| 11:42:27 | Zagor | I'm getting depressed about Neuros already. It seems they haven't really learned much after all. |
| 11:42:37 | LinusN | janus? |
| 11:42:45 | Zagor | yes |
| 11:43:13 | Zagor | they seem to have this illusion that they can mix and match free and proprietary software any way they like |
| 11:43:27 | Zagor | pick the cherries off all the pies |
| 11:43:54 | LinusN | that's my impression too |
| 11:44:52 | Vladoman | I still don't get why they want DM320 for an audio only player |
| 11:45:21 | Zagor | Vladoman: just so they can use the same board for all their models |
| 11:45:49 | Zagor | it makes sense if the chip isn't very expensive in itself |
| 11:46:17 | preglow | Zagor: any new discussions? |
| 11:46:56 | Zagor | preglow: yes, on their mailing list |
| 11:48:08 | preglow | i was under the impression they only planned to use proprietary software on the dsp |
| 11:48:26 | Zagor | they also want to add DRM |
| 11:48:37 | preglow | ahahha |
| 11:48:37 | Zagor | ...and I expect that is just the beginning |
| 11:49:04 | preglow | well, it'll be pretty much impossible to involve us with a clear conscience, then |
| 11:50:53 | rasher | Seems like they aren't doing their homework |
| 11:51:34 | * | Zagor feels like the lone teacher in a very very noisy class... |
| 11:52:28 | linuxstb | I wonder if their target audience is one which uses DRM anyway. Have users been asking for it? |
| 11:52:48 | rasher | Hm, nterestingly, I never managed to get on that mailinglist |
| 11:52:50 | Zagor | linuxstb: that's what I think too. but it's hard to tell them what their audience is :-) |
| 11:53:01 | preglow | just say no to drm |
| 11:53:13 | Zagor | rasher: my words exactly |
| 11:53:24 | linuxstb | But I can understand why they think they need to support it. They need to tick as many boxes as they can in feature comparisons. |
| 11:53:31 | preglow | 'course |
| 11:53:33 | Zagor | i mean preglow |
| 11:53:48 | preglow | but if they're taking that route, i don't see why they're talking to us |
| 11:53:58 | linuxstb | I'm assuming they will also want a WMA decoder. |
| 11:53:59 | preglow | slightly optimistic, perhaps |
| 11:54:08 | Zagor | rasher: sourceforge mail servers are very picky. it connects back to the sending mail server before accepting the mail. I had problems with SF lists too before I realized that. |
| 11:54:21 | preglow | linuxstb: well, that part is very doable |
| 11:54:43 | linuxstb | Yes - it would be good for us if Neuros do that job. |
| 11:55:23 | rasher | Zagor: weird, I'm pretty sure I'm on other sf lists with that address |
| 11:55:47 | Zagor | rasher: yes, i think this is a new policy. |
| 11:56:07 | Zagor | check your mail server log for rejection. at least that was my problem. |
| 11:56:10 | linuxstb | What's the link to the Neuros mailing list? |
| 11:56:33 | rasher | Well, I'm not too concerned with getting on the list now |
| 11:56:59 | Zagor | linuxstb: http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/neuros442linux-main |
| 11:57:13 | linuxstb | Thanks., |
| 11:58:36 | Zagor | i wonder if they start think i'm being a pain in the ass on that list... :-) |
| 11:58:52 | * | LinusN will soon be too |
| 12:00 |
| 12:04:13 | Vladoman | I do not understand they way they are going - if they want ot be THE open source DAP, then use a CPU that is fully open and profit from all the open source movement |
| 12:05:23 | preglow | open source friendly dsp processors aren't very common |
| 12:06:09 | Vladoman | you do not need a "DSP" to decode audio |
| 12:06:38 | preglow | they're talking video |
| 12:06:58 | preglow | and with video and audio, a 200mhz arm MIGHT not be enough, although i'm not completely certain about that |
| 12:07:24 | preglow | depends on if the source material is encoded for the same screen dimensions they're using |
| 12:08:03 | Zagor | ...and if you have crazy optimizer geeks on your team or not :-) |
| 12:08:18 | linuxstb | Even then, I think a "normal" CPU would struggle with video. |
| 12:08:39 | Zagor | yes, maybe |
| 12:09:06 | preglow | very difficult to say, you can do a lot with a 200 mhz arm |
| 12:09:23 | Vladoman | making an open source audio player is something that I can be done right now, |
| 12:09:39 | Vladoman | but making an full open source video player is something different |
| 12:09:49 | preglow | nah, i wouldn't say |
| 12:09:52 | LinusN | patent-ridden? |
| 12:09:53 | preglow | just steer away from using dsps |
| 12:10:17 | preglow | if you want to make a patent free video player, then you're right |
| 12:10:24 | preglow | theora not being done yet |
| 12:10:48 | Vladoman | Well, look at what the 700MHz XScale can (or can't) do - then compare it even to the smalles DSC21 used in the first PMP the JBM20 |
| 12:10:51 | preglow | they want to use _MICROSOFT_ drm???? |
| 12:10:54 | linuxstb | The BBC are working on a free video codec as well - but again, I think that's in the very early stages. |
| 12:11:09 | preglow | linuxstb: dirac? |
| 12:11:11 | preglow | linuxstb: very early stages |
| 12:11:18 | linuxstb | Yes, that's it. |
| 12:11:28 | preglow | and it's a wavelet based codec, might be very costly to decode |
| 12:11:44 | Vladoman | I guess it runs fine a a 3GHz CPU :-) |
| 12:11:49 | Vladoman | *on a |
| 12:12:08 | linuxstb | I hate to imagine how much a broadcast like the BBC has to pay in encoder license fees. |
| 12:12:12 | Vladoman | so you need 5 Ipaq - make also a bigger screen :-) |
| 12:12:40 | preglow | linuxstb: oh, you can be certain they've got some pretty nice deals |
| 12:13:07 | Zagor | preglow: even so, you can be certain they are paying muco dineros for it |
| 12:13:12 | preglow | Zagor: oh yes |
| 12:13:47 | linuxstb | It's possibly in their annual report somewhere. |
| 12:14:09 | preglow | it pretty much has to be |
| 12:14:13 | Zagor | most likely mixed in with general "IT costs" |
| 12:14:17 | preglow | but i'm not looking :> |
| 12:14:25 | linuxstb | Unless it's hidden due to "commercial reasons". |
| 12:15:29 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 12:16:05 | Vladoman | has anybody seen/used the Neuros 442? |
| 12:16:15 | preglow | but if neuros are going to keep at it like this, i don't know how interested i'd be in helping them |
| 12:16:48 | preglow | it's blatantly obvious that you can't mix drm into rockbox and have it work with no tears |
| 12:17:00 | preglow | especially not microsofts drm |
| 12:18:01 | | Join Moos [0] (i=DrMoos@m50.net81-66-159.noos.fr) |
| 12:18:04 | ashridah | drm wouldn't be a problem if it was based on an open encryption |
| 12:18:09 | preglow | they never are |
| 12:18:14 | Zagor | preglow: it's also blatantly obvious Microsoft is not going to license their DRM to a linux or open source-based product |
| 12:18:21 | Moos | Good'day folks |
| 12:18:32 | ashridah | the problem would be giving the media tools confidence that we couldn't transfer the key to someone else |
| 12:18:35 | preglow | btw, do you know what's needed to cross license a project like this? |
| 12:18:40 | Zagor | I looked at their license yesterday. It specifically REQUIRES obfuscation and/or encryption of the code. |
| 12:18:43 | preglow | permission from all contributors? |
| 12:19:00 | Zagor | preglow: yes, at least all major contributors |
| 12:19:19 | preglow | where do you draw the line? |
| 12:19:43 | Zagor | there is no strict line. there rarely is in the law. :-) |
| 12:19:54 | preglow | wouldn't even the smallest contributor be able to retract his contributions? |
| 12:20:14 | linuxstb | Do you have current contact information for all the contributors? |
| 12:20:40 | Zagor | afaik (and I'm obviously not a lawyer) the contribution must have some substance or "weight" for it to count as copyrightable. a two-line patch likely does not suffice. |
| 12:20:54 | preglow | i'm eagerly awaiting Microsoft Rockbox |
| 12:21:00 | Zagor | :-) |
| 12:27:30 | linuxstb | preglow: ALAC hopefully just needs more yields() adding to it - I think it should already be fast enough to not slow down other things. |
| 12:27:48 | linuxstb | I'm getting about 40% CPU boost. |
| 12:29:18 | preglow | i was getting less |
| 12:29:45 | preglow | still too much for my tastes :) |
| 12:31:27 | preglow | still some iram left as well |
| 12:32:42 | linuxstb | Yes - but I have the same problem as you - no way to test optimisations. |
| 12:33:08 | preglow | ahh, yes |
| 12:34:16 | preglow | a lot of stuff left to be optimised here, yes |
| 12:34:28 | preglow | i'll do the filter loop some time |
| 12:45:55 | Vladoman | lunch |
| 12:46:59 | Febs | Blech, has anyone seen the new Mistic River? It's absolutely hideous. |
| 12:47:29 | rasher | Completely. |
| 12:48:20 | Febs | I couldn't even stand to read posts there for 10 minutes. The eyestrain was giving me a headache. |
| 12:50:31 | preglow | yes, it is kind of intrusive |
| 12:51:55 | linuxstb | Plus all the URLs have changed for the forums. |
| 12:52:03 | linuxstb | So no links work any more. |
| 12:52:19 | preglow | how neat |
| 12:52:30 | Febs | Hmm. Reading yesterday's log, I see that "hideous" is the exact term Rasher used. Great minds think alike! ;) |
| 12:55:56 | rasher | Dark colours, low contrast. Heavy on screen real-estate. Can't say I like it. |
| 12:57:42 | preglow | grey on black = great reading condition |
| 12:59:15 | linuxstb | Is it possible to customise the style if you log in? I'm not registered there. |
| 13:00 |
| 13:00:01 | rasher | No |
| 13:00:05 | rasher | Sadly not |
| 13:00:36 | * | rasher posts to the announcement thread |
| 13:01:08 | * | rasher wonders why he has only 4 posts |
| 13:01:15 | Febs | Actually, yes. User CP −−> edit options −−> forum skin −−> test. I think that Jeff *just* put that in based on fairly strong negative feedback about the new design. |
| 13:01:46 | rasher | Thank god |
| 13:01:56 | linuxstb | I was about to quote this thread: http://www.misticriver.net/showthread.php?t=29422 |
| 13:02:08 | Febs | rasher, my thoughts exactly. |
| 13:03:03 | rasher | Still confused by the posts count thing. |
| 13:03:27 | Febs | I don't pay any attention to it. |
| 13:04:18 | rasher | Me neither, usually. It just striked me as fairly odd, since searching for posts by me, give >150 posts. |
| 13:05:16 | Febs | They have postcount turned off for the lounge. I think that the Rockbox forum was originally considered a lounge, and so posts there don't count towards post count. |
| 13:05:32 | Febs | And I'm sure that's where most of your posts are. |
| 13:05:38 | rasher | Oh yes. |
| 13:06:19 | rasher | Strange policy :-\ |
| 13:06:22 | | Join tucoz [0] (n=81b17b04@labb.contactor.se) |
| 13:07:04 | rasher | Nice, my post was removed from the thread. |
| 13:07:34 | tucoz | Hi, do you think we should add Keymapping to the list of bugs/or-some-other-headline to the list of things to do before a iriver release (IriverStatus)? |
| 13:09:05 | tucoz | Might just add it under Release Critical features |
| 13:09:50 | rasher | Yeah, it needs to be worked over before releasing |
| 13:10:39 | tucoz | Just adding a comment to that |
| 13:11:06 | linuxstb | But it's not just keymapping - it's the whole UI that needs thinking about. |
| 13:13:33 | tucoz | ah, that is true. Do you also agree that the menu (settings etc) need to be taken care of? |
| 13:13:50 | linuxstb | They need to be thought about. Maybe they will stay the same, maybe not. |
| 13:16:38 | tucoz | linuxstb: congratulations on your progression with your ipod! |
| 13:17:21 | | Quit Moos (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 13:17:28 | linuxstb | Thanks. It's not much, but at least I can now partially use the LCD. |
| 13:17:42 | | Join Moos [0] (i=DrMoos@m50.net81-66-159.noos.fr) |
| 13:18:55 | tucoz | cool |
| 13:19:44 | | Part tucoz |
| 13:22:15 | preglow | linuxstb: do you post this progress anywhere? |
| 13:23:13 | rasher | preglow: http://www.davechapman.f2s.com/rockbox/DSC00368.JPG |
| 13:23:25 | rasher | That's about it, I think |
| 13:23:36 | rasher | and he's explained a few things here |
| 13:23:59 | rasher | But what he found out was pretty much already known by the ipl people, it turned out |
| 13:24:29 | preglow | ooooh, nicety |
| 13:25:37 | preglow | linuxstb: do you know on which level the differences in the portalplayer chips are? will we need a separate build for each gen ipod? |
| 13:28:20 | linuxstb | There are bigger differences in things like the LCD and keypad drivers than the PP chips themselves. I think it makes sense to have at least different builds for the different LCDs and keypad combinations. |
| 13:28:39 | linuxstb | And if we do that, we already have separate builds for the different processor revisions. |
| 13:28:58 | | Quit ender` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 13:29:22 | linuxstb | ipodlinux does everything at runtime - I'm slowly documenting where the precise differences are between hardware revisions. |
| 13:30:30 | preglow | yes, i figured they were doing that |
| 13:30:36 | preglow | but food time |
| 14:00 |
| 14:15:32 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 14:17:35 | | Quit Moos (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 14:17:46 | | Join Moos [0] (i=DrMoos@m50.net81-66-159.noos.fr) |
| 14:19:11 | | Quit Ismo (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 14:20:43 | | Quit Febs (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 14:22:40 | | Join cYmen [0] (n=cymen@nat-ph3-wh.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de) |
| 14:23:55 | | Join tvelocity [0] (n=tony@ipa112.2.tellas.gr) |
| 14:29:59 | Zagor | "Company shall use commercially reasonable efforts in Company's industry to design Final Products to prevent third parties from reverse engineering, decompiling or disassembling" |
| 14:30:15 | Zagor | ^^^^ Microsoft's DRM license |
| 14:32:46 | preglow | surely, open source distribution must satisify these requirements :> |
| 14:33:01 | linuxstb | Sounds "commercially reasonable" to me. |
| 14:33:56 | | Quit ashridah (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 14:33:57 | linuxstb | If you provide the source, there is no need to reverse engineer, decompile or dissassemble. |
| 14:34:12 | linuxstb | Therefore it is prevented. |
| 14:35:06 | Zagor | linuxstb: yeah, but naturally there's another paragraph that says the source is more valuable than your kids |
| 14:36:17 | | Join ashridah [0] (i=ashridah@220-253-120-79.VIC.netspace.net.au) |
| 14:56:32 | bluebrother^ | is somebody in here having a good knowledge of doxygen? |
| 15:00 |
| 15:04:02 | rasher | Hm, my matrix plugin thing is now using grayscale, but it's still not very dynamic :-\ |
| 15:04:04 | rasher | I think I broke it |
| 15:12:09 | preglow | what's the matter with it? |
| 15:12:22 | rasher | It just displays characters in the same rows |
| 15:12:42 | rasher | Ie. the same 3 or 4 rows |
| 15:13:07 | rasher | It's always done that |
| 15:13:14 | rasher | iirc, it works better in the sim |
| 15:13:17 | preglow | source hanging around? |
| 15:13:33 | rasher | Hang on |
| 15:14:00 | rasher | it's a bit messed up, because I didn't know which defines to use for grayscale, so it currently only builds for iriver |
| 15:16:07 | rasher | rasher.dk/rockbox/matrix.c">http://rasher.dk/rockbox/matrix.c and matrixfontgrey-b.h matrixfontgrey-n.h |
| 15:18:16 | | Join _CoCoLUS [0] (n=coco@h081217139221.dyn.cm.kabsi.at) |
| 15:18:16 | | Quit CoCoLUS (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 15:18:19 | * | rasher leaves it running for a while |
| 15:19:04 | rasher | I have bitmaps for a colour font ready |
| 15:19:22 | | Join amiconn_ [0] (n=jens@p54BD7279.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 15:20:12 | rasher | Basically the whole matrix_loop is a horrible mess of loops |
| 15:20:12 | preglow | why doesn't the LOGS macro take the plugin api pointer as a parameter rather than assuming its name? |
| 15:20:24 | preglow | LOGF, yers |
| 15:20:26 | rasher | I haven't dared touching it |
| 15:20:34 | rasher | But I must've done something :-\ |
| 15:20:41 | | Quit amiconn (Nick collision from services.) |
| 15:20:41 | | Nick amiconn_ is now known as amiconn (n=jens@p54BD7279.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 15:20:44 | preglow | assuming something about the namespace is badness |
| 15:20:49 | rasher | Yeah |
| 15:20:56 | rasher | That seems wrong |
| 15:20:58 | preglow | that's not related, just wondering |
| 15:21:09 | preglow | rasher: you did a pretty straight port that locked up as well, yes? |
| 15:21:13 | preglow | sounds like a strange bug |
| 15:21:25 | rasher | Yeah, I haven't touched the loop since that |
| 15:21:32 | rasher | so it doesn't surprise me |
| 15:21:37 | rasher | I'll try again, maybe |
| 15:23:06 | rasher | I'm thinking I might've confused some rand functions |
| 15:23:22 | rasher | Because I had to change all those of course |
| 15:23:50 | rasher | okay, I'll try to redo the matrix_loop |
| 15:27:34 | preglow | hmm |
| 15:27:40 | preglow | well, that does indeed differ between rockbox and sim |
| 15:27:58 | rasher | So I'm not going mad |
| 15:28:04 | rasher | Did you make it work for the sim? |
| 15:28:07 | preglow | nah |
| 15:28:12 | rasher | what then? |
| 15:28:20 | preglow | nothing, just had a look at the source |
| 15:28:33 | * | rasher is confused |
| 15:28:35 | rasher | How? |
| 15:28:45 | * | preglow is confused too |
| 15:28:56 | preglow | i just had a look at your source code, that's all i've done |
| 15:29:17 | rasher | How can you tell it differs between rockbox and sim then? |
| 15:29:58 | | Quit Zagor ("Client exiting") |
| 15:31:52 | preglow | you said so |
| 15:35:14 | preglow | but i've gotta go |
| 15:35:39 | rasher | still the same :-\ |
| 15:35:43 | rasher | oh, maybe not! |
| 15:35:53 | rasher | no! |
| 15:35:55 | rasher | hurray! |
| 15:36:04 | preglow | commit! |
| 15:36:06 | * | HCl bites freenode |
| 15:36:16 | rasher | I need to see what I did wrong now |
| 15:39:11 | rasher | This is not making any sense. |
| 15:39:25 | rasher | The only diff between the version I uploaded and the version that is now working is in commented code |
| 15:39:47 | HCl | gotta love computers |
| 15:40:11 | rasher | Ah, no |
| 15:40:25 | rasher | I think I had a stray } |
| 15:40:30 | rasher | not sure how that works out |
| 15:40:42 | rasher | Oh, not that either |
| 15:43:55 | * | rasher taps his fingers |
| 15:44:01 | rasher | Now it's not showing *anything* |
| 15:44:50 | rasher | The algorithm seems pretty moody |
| 15:44:53 | preglow | pure luck |
| 15:45:00 | preglow | sure there's not any seeding magic around? |
| 15:45:20 | rasher | Can't see what/how that should work |
| 15:45:27 | rasher | I seed once at the beginning |
| 15:45:30 | preglow | with? |
| 15:45:39 | rasher | *rb->current_tick |
| 15:45:45 | preglow | i see, yes |
| 15:45:54 | preglow | try not seeding it |
| 15:46:05 | preglow | if you get consistent results then, you know what's wrong |
| 15:47:34 | rasher | It also displays an unhealthy disposition for even-numbered lines :-\ |
| 15:48:14 | rasher | I don't. |
| 15:48:31 | rasher | Maybe I should try seeding with 42 |
| 15:49:06 | rasher | at least, the seed seems to be kept throughout the lifetime of rockbox |
| 15:49:53 | preglow | hmm, rockbox uses a mersenne twister |
| 15:49:58 | preglow | that should be more than adequate |
| 15:50:25 | rasher | I'm currently blaming the algorithm somehow |
| 15:53:10 | | Quit tvelocity ("Leaving") |
| 15:53:11 | preglow | gotta go |
| 15:53:20 | rasher | Bye |
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| 16:05:41 | Vladoman | does the PC-simulator for rockbox support MP3 sound output? |
| 16:05:57 | rasher | Which one? |
| 16:07:52 | Vladoman | Archos? |
| 16:08:29 | Vladoman | I mean for the JB/JBR - is it a different simulator? |
| 16:08:34 | rasher | I mean, X11 or Win32? |
| 16:08:40 | Vladoman | X11 of course :-) |
| 16:08:43 | amiconn | The simulator core is the same. |
| 16:09:00 | Vladoman | so, does it have mp3 out? |
| 16:09:02 | rasher | Isn't the sound output different though? |
| 16:09:04 | amiconn | Standard builds do sound output for swcodec platforms only (i.e. iriver) |
| 16:09:23 | Vladoman | so, nobody added MAD as a SW-MAS? |
| 16:09:27 | | Quit ashridah ("Leaving") |
| 16:09:37 | amiconn | Afaik there is a hack to enable sound output for archos x11 sims, but I don't know how to enable it |
| 16:10:09 | amiconn | ..or whether it still works at all. There were many changes done to the simulator code |
| 16:10:58 | Vladoman | OK, I'll try to get the sim running first |
| 16:11:18 | Vladoman | I hope it has a good "installer" :-) |
| 16:13:46 | amiconn | It seems that Dave Chapman added the x11 archos simulator sound output... |
| 16:13:49 | rasher | amiconn: Any objections to setting the iriver cpu to 11mhz while in the FM screen? |
| 16:13:59 | amiconn | yes |
| 16:14:04 | rasher | What? |
| 16:14:07 | amiconn | Recording |
| 16:14:24 | linuxstb | amiconn: Yes, that was me many many years ago. It stopped working soon after I added it I think. |
| 16:14:28 | rasher | Of course |
| 16:14:56 | rasher | shouldn't be done while recording |
| 16:15:07 | rasher | I'm guessing this is quite easily tested for though? |
| 16:15:34 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 16:15:58 | amiconn | On archos, entering the recording screen switches to recording mode |
| 16:16:11 | | Nick TiMiD[sofaraway] is now known as TiMiD (n=TiMiD[FD@asgard.valombre.net) |
| 16:16:21 | amiconn | ...and if you have prerecording enabled, it does record to ram continuously |
| 16:16:23 | TiMiD | hi |
| 16:16:32 | TiMiD | just a question |
| 16:16:55 | TiMiD | how bad is it to use malloc in the rockbox code ? (I heard bad things about this) |
| 16:17:08 | amiconn | It's simply not possible |
| 16:17:11 | amiconn | (in the core) |
| 16:17:21 | TiMiD | ok |
| 16:17:30 | TiMiD | I saw a function 'buffer_alloc' |
| 16:17:35 | linuxstb | I think the codecs are the only place there are mallocs - but only because it is so much work to get rid of them. |
| 16:18:04 | TiMiD | can the memory allocated be freed or is it wasted until next reboot ? |
| 16:18:06 | amiconn | TiMiD: That's a one-time alloc, and it can only be used at boot, before playback gets initialised |
| 16:18:13 | TiMiD | ok :( |
| 16:18:21 | TiMiD | bad :( |
| 16:18:27 | amiconn | Why? |
| 16:18:49 | TiMiD | I wanted to try to implement a list widget |
| 16:19:05 | TiMiD | with scrollbar and so on that could be displayed on both displays |
| 16:19:27 | TiMiD | but I don't see how to allocate my item list |
| 16:19:37 | rasher | Another question about radio - why only 32 presets? Lots of places seem to have more |
| 16:19:51 | TiMiD | (since it can vary depending on what you want to put in the list) |
| 16:20:35 | linuxstb | TiMiD: The code that uses your list widget would allocate the memory statically. |
| 16:20:54 | linuxstb | e.g. like the menus currently. |
| 16:21:11 | amiconn | That's one of the embedded programming challenges - resources are limited, you can't simply waste them as you would do on a PC |
| 16:21:18 | TiMiD | yes, but if for example I want to put a dir content in it |
| 16:21:25 | TiMiD | dir content can change |
| 16:21:45 | TiMiD | (and will change when you go to other dirs) |
| 16:22:18 | linuxstb | I'm guessing you would need to use the "maximum files in a directory" setting to allocate the memory in advance. |
| 16:22:28 | amiconn | The dir browser does that today |
| 16:23:03 | amiconn | ..and certainly we don't want to buffer the contents for each display separately |
| 16:23:07 | TiMiD | yes it allocates the memory at the beginning : tc.dircache = buffer_alloc(tc.dircache_size); |
| 16:23:11 | amiconn | That would be a waste |
| 16:23:35 | TiMiD | for that the two display widgets could share the same list |
| 16:23:58 | linuxstb | Maybe you could use some kind of callback function in your widget to get the text to display for an item. |
| 16:24:18 | linuxstb | I've used widgets like that in the past. |
| 16:25:02 | TiMiD | the api I thought was more like you would have to add each item with an add_item function |
| 16:25:33 | linuxstb | The alternative is just to set the number of items in the list, and provide a callback function that generates the text to display |
| 16:25:39 | TiMiD | so the calling program give the text |
| 16:25:57 | TiMiD | yes |
| 16:26:07 | TiMiD | that's a solution :) |
| 16:27:32 | TiMiD | ~kb of memory is not that much and it will be more easy to use for the programmer |
| 16:27:37 | TiMiD | but I think I will allocate a big buffer (global_settings.max_files_in_dir size) beacause |
| 16:27:43 | | Join Zagor [0] (i=foobar@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/Zagor) |
| 16:27:54 | TiMiD | oops my message got inverted |
| 16:28:58 | linuxstb | Don't forget that Rockbox still runs on players with very limited RAM. |
| 16:29:15 | TiMiD | btw, is this really usefull to be able to handle such a huge amount of files in one dir ? |
| 16:29:53 | TiMiD | (I mean with 9999files in a dir it would take a while if you want something in the middle of the list :) ) |
| 16:29:57 | linuxstb | That's why is a setting. "normal" people will set it low, mad people with 1000s of files in one directory will set it high. |
| 16:30:39 | Vladoman | OK, got the simulator running - but no sound for a JBR :-( |
| 16:30:50 | TiMiD | well you think a callback would be better ? |
| 16:31:05 | linuxstb | I do. But I would be interested to hear other people's views. |
| 16:31:20 | TiMiD | (in fact, if I have 2 ptr for an item with 9999items it's around 80kb) |
| 16:31:37 | TiMiD | it's a large amount for players with 2mb |
| 16:33:02 | TiMiD | I will go for callback (more complicated :-( ) |
| 16:33:48 | TiMiD | maybe a little slower too |
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| 16:53:25 | amiconn | rasher: You had a question concerning my last commit? |
| 16:53:59 | rasher | amiconn: I just didn't understand the commit message? |
| 16:54:06 | rasher | As in, what does it do/fix/change |
| 16:54:22 | amiconn | It fixes the behaviour of the recording trigger mode setting |
| 16:54:38 | amiconn | There are 3 modes: Off, Once and Repeat |
| 16:55:22 | amiconn | Cycling forward through the modes (with RIGHT) worked correctly, disabling the trigger display when Off, enabling the display for the 2 other modes |
| 16:55:37 | amiconn | Cycling backward didn't work correctly |
| 16:55:41 | rasher | nice |
| 17:00 |
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| 18:58:18 | t0mas | silence day here today? |
| 18:58:31 | * | t0mas breaks the silence: |
| 18:58:32 | * | t0mas is listening to 1. Cruisebox - On A Podcast (clean version) |
| 19:00 |
| 19:01:27 | rasher | Pretty sileng |
| 19:01:30 | rasher | silent |
| 19:03:42 | | Join webguest63 [0] (n=81b17b04@labb.contactor.se) |
| 19:04:25 | webguest63 | wiki spam for someone to delete: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/SeoCoolhuoquom |
| 19:04:54 | | Part webguest63 |
| 19:05:20 | | Quit linuxstb (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 19:05:26 | * | rasher doesn't know how to deal with this sort of crap |
| 19:05:31 | rasher | Maybe I can't |
| 19:11:26 | | Quit ashridah ("Leaving") |
| 19:26:48 | | Nick Mxm`Pas`Bien is now known as Maxime` (n=flemmard@fbx.flemmard.net) |
| 19:38:57 | Rick | geeze, apple sure pulled off a stinker with the nano |
| 19:42:14 | | Join zeekoe [0] (n=zeekoe@wekkerradio.kabel.utwente.nl) |
| 19:45:10 | rasher | Rick: the scratch thing? |
| 19:46:49 | Rick | yeah |
| 19:47:23 | rasher | That does sound quite bad |
| 19:47:47 | Rick | http://gedankenberg.de/nano/8.JPG <- owwie. |
| 19:49:44 | ze | oo, abrasion holograms |
| 19:54:33 | dpassen1 | i know the appeal is its size, but i'm sure they're will be an iSkin before long |
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| 20:04:56 | dpassen1 | m |
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| 20:56:10 | * | rasher wakes up linuxstb_ |
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| 21:00 |
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| 21:35:51 | | Nick TiMiD[onTheRoadA is now known as TiMiD[CrappyWifi (n=TiMiD[FD@asgard.valombre.net) |
| 21:36:18 | TiMiD[CrappyWifi | I've got a problem |
| 21:36:33 | TiMiD[CrappyWifi | I switched from my desktop computer to my laptop |
| 21:36:42 | TiMiD[CrappyWifi | and now I can't build the simulator |
| 21:36:47 | TiMiD[CrappyWifi | the error is |
| 21:36:48 | TiMiD[CrappyWifi | LD rockboxui |
| 21:36:48 | TiMiD[CrappyWifi | /usr/lib/gcc/i686-pc-linux-gnu/3.4.4/../../../../i686-pc-linux-gnu/bin/ld: errno: TLS definition in /lib/libc.so.6 section .tbss mismatches non-TLS reference in /mnt/obelix/rockbox/rockbox-devel/build/librockbox.a(errno.o) |
| 21:36:52 | TiMiD[CrappyWifi | /lib/libc.so.6: could not read symbols: Bad value |
| 21:36:55 | TiMiD[CrappyWifi | collect2: ld returned 1 exit status |
| 21:37:21 | TiMiD[CrappyWifi | anybody knows how to deal with this ? |
| 21:37:54 | TiMiD[CrappyWifi | I found a guy on google who had the same problem : http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=326876 |
| 21:38:02 | TiMiD[CrappyWifi | but that's all :( |
| 21:39:55 | rasher | which distro? |
| 21:40:29 | TiMiD[CrappyWifi | gentoo |
| 21:40:31 | TiMiD[CrappyWifi | :) |
| 21:41:06 | TiMiD[CrappyWifi | I can recompile the glibc with linuxthreads-tls |
| 21:41:19 | rasher | I refuse to comment further on the grounds that I may make an ass of myself |
| 21:41:20 | TiMiD[CrappyWifi | (I'm using nptl) |
| 21:41:51 | rasher | But I really have no idea |
| 21:42:03 | rasher | is this a clean build? |
| 21:42:03 | TiMiD[CrappyWifi | np :) |
| 21:42:17 | TiMiD[CrappyWifi | what do you mean by "clean" ? |
| 21:42:21 | TiMiD[CrappyWifi | :p |
| 21:42:27 | rasher | That you did make clean |
| 21:42:35 | TiMiD[CrappyWifi | sure ;) |
| 21:42:35 | rasher | or started with an empty dir |
| 21:42:42 | solexx | d |
| 21:42:42 | TiMiD[CrappyWifi | it's a fresh cvs |
| 21:42:42 | rasher | Figured |
| 21:42:46 | | Nick jborn_ is now known as JoeBorn (n=jborn@dsl017-022-247.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 21:42:50 | rasher | Well, I don't know. |
| 21:43:07 | TiMiD[CrappyWifi | neither do I |
| 21:50:47 | Lear | Any funny options in that global GCC flags variable (forgot what it is called...)? |
| 21:51:12 | dpassen1 | what GCC version |
| 21:51:45 | | Join Bagder [0] (n=daniel@1-1-5-26a.hud.sth.bostream.se) |
| 21:52:21 | rasher | Evening Bagder, some wikispam for you to see to: SeoCoolhuoquom |
| 21:52:32 | Bagder | woo, what fun! ;-) |
| 21:53:18 | rasher | On another, lighter note: http://www.davechapman.f2s.com/rockbox/DSC00368.JPG |
| 21:53:42 | Lear | Anyway, seems like the glibc is compiled with a different -ftls-model... |
| 21:54:07 | Bagder | rasher: now _that_ is fun ;-) |
| 21:54:31 | rasher | Yep. He still can't change the update-region though, so he's stuck inside the region the Apple logo is drawn in |
| 21:54:42 | rasher | But he has 16-bit colour |
| 21:54:56 | Bagder | frigging cool |
| 21:55:16 | Lear | Can't seem to load that link here... |
| 21:55:34 | Lear | Finally... |
| 22:00 |
| 22:01:26 | | Join LinusN [0] (n=linus@labb.contactor.se) |
| 22:01:52 | Lear | Is a movem.l of four registers enough to trigger burst mode? |
| 22:02:44 | LinusN | should be, methinks |
| 22:03:43 | | Join linuxstb_ [0] (n=linuxstb@i-83-67-212-170.freedom2surf.net) |
| 22:03:57 | Lear | Good, then I could try to work around a gcc 4.0.1 "problem" without too much of a performance drop... |
| 22:04:40 | amiconn | Lear: A movem.l with (>=) 4 registers will only trigger burst mode if it is line aligned |
| 22:04:56 | amiconn | (start address must be a multiple of 16) |
| 22:06:02 | Lear | I don't know if that's really the case, but at least the change wouldn't make things worse in that regard. |
| 22:06:38 | rasher | Are you trying to compile rockbox with gcc4-m68k? |
| 22:06:50 | | Join Paul_The_Nerd [0] (n=paulthen@cpe-66-68-93-2.austin.res.rr.com) |
| 22:07:12 | Lear | Yep, 4.0.1 to be exact. |
| 22:07:45 | rasher | How's it going? |
| 22:08:03 | Lear | Currently stops at an assembler instruction in libmad. |
| 22:08:13 | Lear | (i.e., inline asm) |
| 22:09:33 | rasher | There's a patch here that fixes some compilation problems in libflac, might apply: http://lists.debian.org/debian-gcc/2005/09/msg00262.html |
| 22:09:36 | Paul_The_Nerd | Is the FM Presets page accurate (as in, I have to rename my FM preset file manually as the only one it'll display is the 'default' one?) |
| 22:09:47 | TiMiD[CrappyWifi | sry for the lag, the wifi is not stable ... (my irc client is on a distant mashine) |
| 22:09:54 | TiMiD[CrappyWifi | I'm recompiling glibc ... |
| 22:10:46 | | Quit Bagder (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 22:12:16 | amiconn | Lear: More precisely, the coldfire will use burst mode for every complete 16-byte line. |
| 22:13:35 | LinusN | Paul_The_Nerd: yes |
| 22:14:11 | rasher | There seem to be some trick involved with getting that to work |
| 22:14:24 | Paul_The_Nerd | Thanks LinusN.' |
| 22:14:25 | rasher | No, wait. Stop listening to me if you ever were. |
| 22:15:43 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 22:15:45 | | Quit linuxstb (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) |
| 22:17:01 | TiMiD[CrappyWifi | it changes nothing :( |
| 22:17:35 | TiMiD[CrappyWifi | I have no clue now |
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| 22:36:18 | Lear | Hm... playback.c:audio_track_load calculates a (local) playlist_index, but doesn't use it in any way... |
| 23:00 |
| 23:09:30 | | Nick TiMiD[CrappyWifi is now known as TiMiD[demotivati (n=TiMiD[FD@asgard.valombre.net) |
| 23:15:34 | | Quit Lear ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5.1 [Firefox 1.4/undefined]") |
| 23:18:39 | | Nick TiMiD[demotivati is now known as TiMiD[despair] (n=TiMiD[FD@asgard.valombre.net) |
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| 23:27:12 | preglow | ahh |
| 23:27:22 | preglow | the register allocater chokes on my routine |
| 23:27:26 | preglow | lear: if you're reading this, good luck |
| 23:29:27 | preglow | you'll pretty much need to rewrite the entire function in asm to keep the same performance level |
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| 23:53:21 | preglow | oh well, time for bed |
| 23:53:22 | | Quit preglow ("leaving") |
icon identifies that the person is a core developer (has commit access).