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#rockbox log for 2005-10-20

00:00:12***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:00:46Moos18/10 clean build
00:00:59Moosoops wrong windows sorry :)
00:01:23amiconnLinusN: Any recommended cleaning methods?
00:02:54 Quit sa0 (Client Quit)
00:05:40LinusNamiconn: i dunno, some kind of alcohol, but i don't know what kind
00:05:55LinusNwe don't want to dissolve it :-)
00:06:06LinusNi gotta go
00:06:11LinusNcu around
00:06:19 Part LinusN
00:11:40 Quit ender` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
00:16:42 Quit actionshrimp ("a bird in the bush is worth two in your house")
00:23:51 Quit muesli- (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
00:28:27Mooswhat do you think to give CVS access to TiMiD (Kevin Ferrare)
00:28:36Moosfor the multi support screen
00:28:50Moosfor he can continue working on it
00:29:02Bagderif he wants it and once the current work has been reviewed, sure
00:30:40Moosoh pv sorry ;-)
00:33:59TiMiDBagder: have you looked at my code yet ?
00:34:07Bagderno, sorry
00:34:22Bagderand now, bed-time
00:34:26Moosit's why on CVS access would be fine :D
00:35:03Moosgood night
00:35:11TiMiDgood night then !
00:50:08 Quit t0mas (" HydraIRC -> <- The dawn of a new IRC era")
01:02:35 Quit matsl_ (Remote closed the connection)
01:10:25 Quit ze (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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01:45:54 Part preglow
02:00:13***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
02:04:38linuxstbamiconn: What does the addition of "ax",@progbits to line 22 of crt0.S mean? Incorporating that change in my ipod-modified crt0.S gives the following error:
02:04:43linuxstbcrt0.S:22: Error: junk at end of line, first unrecognized character is `,'
02:06:34linuxstb(I'm obviously compiling it with the ARM assembler)
02:06:53linuxstbBack in the morning.
02:12:29amiconnWhat assembler is that? (hope it is gnu asm)
02:13:00amiconnThese are section attributes, they should be universal across architectures
02:13:58amiconnThe "ax" means the section is (a)llocatable and e(x)ecutable, the @progbits means the section contains data (i.e. isn't empty)
02:14:33Moosamiconn: you sleep sometimes :-) ?
02:14:49amiconnI have to :/
02:15:10Mooshave a good night
02:21:33amiconnlinuxstb: and then "For ELF targets, the .section directive..."
02:28:32Moosgood night all
02:28:37 Quit Moos ("Glory to Rockbox")
02:28:40TiMiDgood night !
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04:00:16***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
04:02:58 Nick JoeBorn-having is now known as JoeBorn (
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05:28:32Blair_Workshopevening all. I have a "situation"
05:29:07Blair_Workshop2.5 not working on my FM recorder and now all I can boot is the archos firmware
06:00:19***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
06:02:22 Part Blair_Workshop
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07:30:07 Join Bger [0] (n=Bager@
07:47:13SlasheriHmh, he refused to ship the h320 I found from ebay to europe :/
07:49:15tvelocitythat sucks
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08:00:21***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
08:03:27Bgermorning :)
08:04:33_FireFly_wow the new changes reduce the size od rockbox.iriver a lot
08:11:15 Quit _FireFly_ ("Leaving")
08:20:40Bgerbut only the size of the file, not the one in memory
08:22:30 Join ender` [0] (i=ychat@
08:35:40linuxstb_amiconn: I found the problem with your crt0.S change on ARM. The "@" symbol is used to mark the start of a comment for ARM, so the "%" symbol is used instead - i.e. "%progbits".
08:42:08linuxstb_This is documented here:
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09:10:57BgerSlasheri bad (about the shipping)
09:12:01SlasheriBger: yep.. :/
09:13:19Bgerno way of persuading him?...
09:14:22Slasherimaybe i will try contacting him again.. And ask how much the shipping would cost
09:14:51Bgerwhat is the prise of the unit ?
09:15:14Slashericurrently 15$ (a few days of auction still left)
09:15:40Bgervery good
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10:00:22***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
10:01:12 Quit tvelocity (Remote closed the connection)
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10:32:03 Quit linuxstb (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
10:44:49SlasheriI think i fixed the bug that old song was played when skipping.. But committing later when i have verified that
10:50:11amiconnlinuxstb_: Weird. Why does every assembler dialect use different comment characters??
10:52:01amiconnPerhaps we can leave out @progbits completely. The most important part of my change was the "x" in "ax". It causes the assembler to use the right padding for .align directives ('nop' instead of zero)
11:07:52 Quit linuxstb_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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11:25:17FebsSlasheri, is that H320 you were looking at on ebay in the U.S.?
11:25:29SlasheriFebs: yes it is
11:25:47SlasheriI have asked again about the shipping cost if he would change his mind ;)
11:26:06FebsIf it doesn't work out, let me know. I could buy it and ship it to you.
11:26:21Slasherioh, that sounds great :)
11:26:34Slasherithanks, i let you know
11:27:11FebsYou might also want to keep an eye on the Buy/Sell/Trade forum at Mistic River. There are often H320s for sale in Europe. Especially now that some people are changing to the new iPod.
11:27:38Slasherihmm, good idea
11:27:55Slasherithe one thing i liked the ebay one was that it has a bad hard drive -> lower price
11:29:09linuxstb__amiconn: If you're happy to remove @progbits, then that will solve the problem. For the moment, I've just added yet another #ifdef. But it doesn't help your unification efforts.
11:31:44FebsSlasheri, people post threads on MR all the time with "my H300 shows 0000 files," etc. and the problem is likely a bad HD...
11:32:06FebsMany of them would probably sell the player rather than going through the effort of fixing it. If you posted a "Wanted to Buy" thread, you could probably find one fairly easily.
11:32:54SlasheriFebs: Hmm, interesting. Maybe i will try that :)
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12:00:23***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
12:18:41*t0mas is listening to 7. Herbie Hancock - When Love Comes To Town (Feat. Joss Stone and Jonny Lang)-easymp3s
12:18:44t0masnice song
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13:32:36preglowso, anyone open to having dsp plugins in rockbox?
13:33:05*UlfJack is hoping that he'll soon be able to run rockbox on his h340
13:33:07preglowi wonder if facilitating for more than one plugin loaded at once is necessary
13:33:17preglowit's not unusual to use more than one effect
13:33:26preglowbut i'm not sure our coldfire can take that much beating :/
13:33:30*Bagder runs away again
13:36:40linuxstb__preglow: Were you thinking about moving the DSP code to the firmware directory at one point?
13:37:10preglowbut there are some interfacing that needs to be done
13:37:14preglowso perhaps some of it needs to go there
13:38:16linuxstb__Was anything ever changed to try and reduce the latency when changing sound settings?
13:38:31preglowi don't believe anyone agreed on a solution
13:43:46linuxstb__Have you thought about how DSP plugins could be given some IRAM? I'm assuming they are going to need it.
13:46:29markunI thought most people liked the idea of keeping a large 32 bit sample buffer and a small pcm buffer
13:50:55linuxstb__That would get my vote, despite the waste of memory in lots of cases - e.g. lossless codecs will output 16-bit data natively (even though it may be in 32-bit ints), so storing it as 32-bit ints is wasteful. It's more of an issue with the lossy codecs.
13:52:54Bger_linuxstb__ some of the loseless codecs support more than 16bits/sample, or i'm wrong
13:53:00 Quit XavierGr (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
13:53:19linuxstb__Yes, they _support_ it. But in practice most files people have on their portables will be 16-bit.
13:53:56Bger_yeah, that's right
13:54:59preglowlinuxstb__: yes, a small amount
13:55:33preglowlinuxstb__: as in below a kilobyte
13:55:38preglowperhaps 256 bytes or something
13:55:51preglowbut they will also need some way of acquiring memory :/
13:55:58preglowfor delay buffers and the like
13:56:34 Quit Febs (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
13:57:00preglowlinuxstb__: storing lossless data in high precision is wasteful, yes, but needed for high precision processing, nearly everyone will use lossy codecs anyway, so it's something of a moot point
13:58:57linuxstb__You could still do the processing at a higher precision if the input was 16-bit lossless data. But I agree that most files will be lossy, which is why I would agree with a 32-bit wide main buffer.
14:00:01preglowand i think the extra memory spent is negligible, to be honest, we have 32 megabytes of the stuff
14:00:05preglowbut of course, crossfading is a problem
14:00:09preglowwith its gigantic buffers
14:00:25***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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14:08:45 Part UlfJack ("Verlassend")
14:12:17preglowbut it clearly has to be solved, especially for crossfading
14:12:40preglowadjusting some dsp parameter will be a very meticulous task when you have to wait ten seconds to hear the change
14:51:55 Quit _FireFly_ ("Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.")
14:52:20Bger_true, unfortunately...
14:54:21preglowanyone remember if someone came up with another possible solution to the problem?
14:59:30merbananpreglow: do you have the cpu to filter the buffers again ?
15:00:44merbananthen you could inverse the filter and inverse the buffers and then filter the buffers with the new filter
15:01:46preglowmaking an inverse filter is not trivial
15:02:26preglowand besides, no, filtering ten seconds of audio is not done in a blink, especially not on our platform
15:02:42preglowand i'd hate to make inverses of all our dsp routines
15:03:24merbananpreglow: well then you need some buffer magic
15:05:08merbananpreglow: why are the buffers so large ?
15:09:10markunA solution to the crossfeed problem might be to start a seperate codec for the following song, but I'm not sure if that is such a good solution
15:11:22linuxstb__Do you mean to run both codecs simultaneously?
15:11:35preglowthat'll be codec swapping hell
15:12:01markunYes, I guess it would be..
15:12:04preglowi don't know how much overhead swapping a codec is, but i bet it's semi heavy
15:12:14preglowi don't know if slasheri measured this
15:15:28preglowwhatever it is, it's sufficient for two mp3 codecs plus resampling, and it'll be faster when amiconn finishes his memcpy opts
15:17:49Bger_and 2 flacs/mpcs ?
15:18:18*Bger_ hits preglow in the heart :)
15:19:13preglowno chance, heh
15:19:36preglowthat's where todays buffering system shines
15:19:47preglowso for the other approach to work, all codecs must be really optimised
15:20:37Bger_btw, imho, rockbox's codecs are far less effective than iriver's ones ...
15:20:39preglowcurrently very few codecs are that optimised
15:20:46Bger_even mp3
15:20:47preglowyes, probably
15:20:51preglowespecially mp3
15:21:00Bger_whya especially
15:21:05preglowiriver uses the motorola decoder, we can never hope to be that fast
15:21:14preglowbecause optimising is tiring and pretty boring work
15:21:17Bger_is the last confirmed ?
15:21:48preglowwell, i can't possibly imagine why they shouldn't use it. it's tailored to their platform and free from motorola
15:21:59preglowalso, i only supports mp3 files, just like the motorola decoder
15:22:26Bger_anyway, i just wanted to say that muesli reached 29hours with iriver's fw with mp3s, and 25h with rockbox on the same mp3s.. but we must have in mind that rockbox *also* leaves the battery to fall well under the level that iriver firmware does
15:22:40preglowhe said he shuffled to me
15:22:56XavierGrwhy not use the motorola decoder too, isn't it our right since we bought the damn thing...?
15:23:08Bger_XavierGr license issues ...
15:23:11preglowno, it's iriver's right, since they got a license
15:23:17preglowfeel free to ask motorola for it
15:23:25preglowbut i'm willing to bet they wont give it to us
15:23:29preglowespecially not under the gnu license
15:24:46Bger_also, rockbox has more sufficient buffering and less disk spinning ...
15:25:17Bger_s/efficient/effective :)
15:25:22preglowyes, rockbox wins in that apartment
15:25:28preglowbut it's no secret our codecs aren't as optimised
15:26:12Bger_yes, i just wanted to point out why these 25h are worse than just 4h less
15:26:25linuxstb__But we're using general-purpose libraries designed for use on desktop PCs. Things can only improve.
15:27:04preglowwe wont be able to brag about longer battery time for a while, i guess
15:27:07preglowbut i don't care that much
15:27:30preglowfor me it's more about the features
15:27:37Bger_btw, any ideas when there will be 80GB 1.8" hdds from Toshiba on the market ?
15:27:47linuxstb__Anything over about 16 hours is more than ample battery time. I'm rarely that far away from electricity.
15:28:41Bger_linuxstb__ : yes, but ... more is ... more :)
15:29:32preglowsure, sure
15:29:39preglowbut for me at least, it's not that big of a priority
15:29:47preglowi'll continue optimising codecs again when i have the means anyway
15:30:30Bger_when u have time and don more probably
15:30:41Bger_when u have time and don't know what other to do more probably
15:30:50preglowtime i can find here and there, right now i just need some way to measure my improvements
15:31:31Bger_in my very humble opinion it's better to start working on param. EQ
15:32:03XavierGryes, the feature comparison says that rockbox has longer battery time than iriver, gusee this is a lie.
15:32:14XavierGrsome may compliain about it
15:32:26amiconnXavierGr: On archos it clearly has, especially on odio
15:32:32preglowBger_: i'd love to, but i have more important things to do right now
15:32:36preglownot rockbox related
15:32:48amiconnOndio battery time is increased by ~40% (!)
15:32:59Bger_preglow that's why i said it this way...
15:33:02linuxstb__It's hard to compare though - how would you compare FLAC/Wavpack/ALAC/MP2/AC3 battery consumption on Rockbox with iriver's firmware?
15:33:02XavierGrI said than iriver ofcourse for archos it should
15:33:13amiconnArchos firmware doesn't use cpu sleep when there is nothing to do. Rockbox does :)
15:33:25XavierGrwow 40%? that is huge
15:33:44Bger_this is ... dumb...
15:35:40Bger_what's the situation with hdd based archoses ?
15:36:57amiconnSame thing about the cpu, but the runtime increase is less, because the HD draws a large part of the power, plus they have backlight
15:38:21amiconnThe fun thing with Ondio is that Archos promises 10 hours battery time, which are unreachable with stock firmware...
15:38:28Bger_i suppose archos were not so stupid in buffering like iriver... otoh there's much less SDRAM on them
15:39:04amiconnYes, archos does prope (frame level) gapless
15:39:23amiconn2mb fast page mode dram
15:39:49Bger_this is even slower than irivers, isn't it?
15:42:24 Join |Lupin| [0] (
15:42:39|Lupin|Hello, everybody.
15:43:30|Lupin|I'm trying to delete a file through the file menu, but I can't figure out what to do once the voice says "delete". I tried the play button, but this doesn't seem to work. Any ideas ?
15:43:41preglowpress the joystick
15:43:44preglowif you're using iriver
15:43:53preglowthe message is currently incorrect for iriver
15:43:54amiconnBger_: In relation to the cpu speed, the archos dram is even faster than the iriver sdram
15:44:40Bger_hm, didn't know this
15:44:44amiconniriver ram is only about 2.5x speed of the archos ram, measured at about 4x cpu speed (old 48MHz)
15:44:54amiconnThis is already *with* burst mode!
15:45:16|Lupin|Well, I pressed the joystick, and then nothing happened. Then I pressed play, and I'm back to directory browser, and nothing happened.
15:46:17preglow|Lupin|: when you press the delete command, and are prompted for confirmation, a joystick press should be what is needed
15:47:28|Lupin|perhaps the problem is the prompting message is not vocalized.
15:47:45preglowif that is so, it should be fixed
15:48:04|Lupin|preglow: but it works, yes. Thanks !
15:48:14|Lupin|preglow: It is so.
15:48:56 Quit pilot000 ("CGI:IRC")
15:51:48|Lupin|Another trick which is difficult for me is torun the original Iriver firmware.
15:52:00|Lupin|I have absolutely no idea how long I should press on Record.
15:52:11|Lupin|Should I do so until it beeps, or is that toolong ?
15:52:17preglowjust for a second
15:52:19preglowshould be enough
15:52:20 Join Febs [0] (
15:52:26XavierGrRecord together with play
15:52:34XavierGrthen release and iriver will start
15:53:03FebsI'm making some updates to the WikiManual. Is the directory cache available only on iriver or also on other platforms?
15:53:19Bger_only on iriver afaik...
15:53:31FebsThat's what I thought.
15:53:35Bger_but i'm not sure
15:53:42Bger_see in the cvs ...
15:54:16|Lupin|But I can't hear the firmware beeping...
15:54:32|Lupin|Is that normal ?
15:55:02linuxstb__|Lupin|: You can let go of record immediately you hear the hard disk spin up. That's the iriver firmware scanning the disk.
15:55:43|Lupin|ahah, ok.
15:55:49preglowmine doesn't beep when it starts
15:55:56Bger_Febs : if MEMORYSIZE>8 then dircache is enabled ...
15:56:09Bger_so yes, only for iriver for now
15:57:27|Lupin|preglow: perhaps did you disable beeps ?
16:00:28***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
16:01:31FebsBger_: Thanks.
16:01:37Bger_np, febs
16:01:48 Join _FireFly_ [0] (
16:03:47preglow|Lupin|: yeah, i did
16:04:04 Quit tvelocity ("Leaving")
16:06:23|Lupin|What is strange to me is that sometimes it beeps, sometimes it does not. But well, rockbox speaks, so I suspect it can be assumed that as soon as it doesn't speak, it's Iriver's firmware which is running.
16:06:57|Lupin|It'be very very nice when Rockbox will be able to record, though. It's the only reason I have to us Iriver's firmware, at the moment.
16:07:42markunWhy are the execute bits set for some files in the source tree? Are there cvs clients that set it by accident?
16:08:30FebsI want to make the suggestion that the "Playback" menu be renamed "Playback settings" moved so that it is its own option on the Main Menu, rather than being a submenu of the "General Settings" menu.
16:08:44Bger_i guess cygwin's cvs ...
16:08:58Febssettings" moved −−> "settings AND moved
16:13:26_FireFly_hmm it seems that is a little bit corrupted
16:15:09preglowFebs: think i agree there
16:15:21preglowrockbox' settings layout is a wee bit confusing
16:15:25amiconnBagder, Zagor: What happened to the build table??
16:15:47preglowshotgun accident
16:16:03_FireFly_?? why a shotgun is used ??
16:16:05XavierGrFebs: yeah i agree to that too
16:18:37amiconnmarkun, Bger_: I don't think it's cygwin cvs' fault, but it probably has to do with windows environment
16:19:21amiconnA native win32 editor won't know about the unix file attributes, so the default bits are set
16:19:36amiconn...if this file is created in the win32 editor
16:19:42amiconncvs just preserves them
16:20:16Bger_but there's no "execute" attribute in windows...
16:20:55Bger_so cygwin umasks new files with +x or ?
16:21:02amiconnYes. However, ntfs keeps both types of attributes, native windows and unix
16:21:30amiconnThe files aren't created under cygwin, but under native windows
16:21:31*Bger_ didn't know that ntfs has *such* attributes
16:21:58amiconn...and windows probably sets the default (755) for new files
16:22:10amiconncygwin knows about them
16:22:27amiconnOne such example is firmware/timer.c. That's created by me...
16:23:01Bger_maybe it's a good idea someone to clean the perms in cvs
16:24:11 Quit pike ()
16:25:28Bger_hm, otoh it's logical ntfs to have such attributes, winnt had posix subsystem...
16:25:29linuxstb__Am I correct in writing the following in the IriverFAQ wiki page to answer the question "Will recording in Rockbox have the same filesize limitations as the iriver firmware?"
16:25:34linuxstb__No. The individual file size for recording in Rockbox is user-configurable up to 2GB per file. (The FAT32 filesystem and the WAV format itself are technically capable of supporting file sizes up to 4GB, but operating system and application support is not guaranteed beyond 2GB). Rockbox has an automatic file split function, so it automatically continues the recording in a new file each time the file size limit is reached.
16:25:49linuxstb__(the answer currently refers to a 4GB limit)
16:26:00Bger_better correct it
16:34:52 Join Moos [0] (
16:37:01MoosHi guys!
16:37:11Mooswhat's happened with CVS table?
16:40:27preglowwe're wondering too
16:41:12 Join CoCoLUS [0] (
16:41:24amiconnBagder/ Zagor: ping...
16:41:45preglowthey'll come around
16:42:01preglownot the first time ever the build table has fainted
16:43:11Moosah :/
16:46:12 Quit Febs ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
17:02:52Moosanyone know, who commit the last changes after dircache changes of Slasheri? it's impossible to know who commit last and what the changes are
17:04:33preglowwhy don't you just look at the cvs activity page?
17:04:38Slashericvs works fine but there is a problem with the daily builds
17:04:47Slasherithere are no commits after my fix
17:04:56Moosah ok
17:05:26MoosI thought there are builds after, and that are doing this
17:05:56 Join MO-Pantsu [0] (
17:05:58preglowMoos: if you're interested, why not subscribe to the cvs list?
17:06:28Moosyes I am, and don't receive mail of commits but I'm wondered
17:06:49Moosif there was bug or something
17:06:52preglowyou always receive commit mail if someone commited, even before the cvs activity table shows it
17:07:56MoosBagder is our man for this :)
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17:59:17TiMiDthere is a problem with CVS
18:00:01TiMiDcheckout doesn't work for me
18:00:30***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
18:04:09TiMiDworks again :P
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18:35:57Moosthe daily build table continuing to be crazy, it indicate building but nothing :)
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19:16:30amiconnHmm, there seems to be something wrong with the server. (1) The build table weirdness starts with Slasheri's commit.
19:17:06amiconn(2) I have two cvs working copies. Although my main copy doesn't incorporate these last changes, 'cvs diff' doesn't report them
19:17:29amiconnNow I'm hesitant to 'cvs up'...
19:19:33amiconnAh, bs.
19:19:56*amiconn is silly
19:23:27Slasherihmm.. sounds really weird
19:24:56amiconncvs diff isn't supposed to show changes done by others, so this is ok
19:25:25amiconnHowever, it still looks like a server problem to me. Disk full, failing or sth like that
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20:08:32XavierGrcan rockbox split a recording if the volume level is low and then activity starts back?
20:09:18XavierGrSlasheri did you fixed the mp3 buffer problem (playback a little bit of the previous file when skipping)?
20:10:00SlasheriXavierGr: i am not sure if it's completely fixed.. But i will commit some changes soon
20:10:31SlasheriI just found that rotate_index in playlist.c is one of the most confusing functions it has..
20:10:43SlasheriI have used almost days to figure out how it works :D
20:12:04XavierGrSlasheri I have noticed that this bug occurs mostly (but not only) when you choose a song that is not next or previous. (.e.g you select another files from another folder)
20:12:10XavierGrThough I am not sure.
20:12:24SlasheriXavierGr: Hmm, interesting. I will try that too
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20:14:55amiconnXavierGr: Rockbox on archos does volume triggered recording, one-shot or repeated
20:15:31SlasheriThat works on iriver too (iirc, it looks at the peakmeter and i already checked that works)
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21:02:55SlasheriHmm, now the incorrect playlist entries skipping seems to work well.. Implemented on playlist level :) I will commit tomorrow
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21:15:37XavierGrDoes anyone here work on multisim?
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21:21:15XavierGrhigh! :P
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