| 00:00:37 | preglow | man, i love overflow errors |
| 00:04:32 | | Quit linuxstb (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 00:05:17 | | Join linuxstb [0] (n=linuxstb@i-83-67-212-170.freedom2surf.net) |
| 00:09:19 | | Quit ender` (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) |
| 00:13:37 | * | linuxstb has just found the ffmpeg 24-bit FLAC bug |
| 00:13:43 | linuxstb | Overflow errors... |
| 00:15:44 | | Join miner49er [0] (n=522e3819@labb.contactor.se) |
| 00:15:56 | | Quit DrMoos (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 00:17:12 | preglow | haha |
| 00:17:23 | preglow | so it's a bug, not a feature? |
| 00:18:16 | linuxstb | The problem is that ffmpeg itself is limited to 16-bit audio. Or at least, the flac decoder only outputs 16-bit samples at the end of the process. |
| 00:18:34 | linuxstb | So nobody had tested 24-bit files. |
| 00:19:25 | preglow | how well thought out |
| 00:19:34 | linuxstb | Does your EMAC lpc_restore function deal with the "wide" case? |
| 00:19:46 | linuxstb | I was about to look, but as you are here... |
| 00:19:49 | preglow | i love this, the lowshelf filter goes on for about a second, then suddenly, starts bursting noise at certain intervals |
| 00:19:54 | preglow | linuxstb: yes, i think so |
| 00:20:08 | linuxstb | Can you remember how much of a speed improvement those functions gave? |
| 00:20:14 | preglow | linuxstb: not at all |
| 00:21:30 | preglow | but yeah, libflac has lpc_restore routines for both 16 bits, and everything above, it seems |
| 00:21:36 | preglow | my routine handles both right now |
| 00:21:47 | preglow | that's one of the things i might optimise |
| 00:22:11 | linuxstb | Yes - it has routines optimised for 32-bit ints (where overflow is not a problem), and 64-bit routines otherwise (mainly for 24-bit audio I think). |
| 00:22:18 | preglow | making a separate routine for 16 bit data, i think the 16 bit mac operation is faster |
| 00:23:02 | linuxstb | There's an if statement in libFLAC that decides whether there is a risk of overflow or not. That was missing in ffmpeg, and ffmpeg always used the 32-bit version. |
| 00:23:12 | linuxstb | Hence the overflow. |
| 00:23:27 | linuxstb | But it was interesting to compare the ffmpeg and libFLAC code. |
| 00:24:29 | preglow | anything notable? |
| 00:26:02 | linuxstb | The actual libFLAC decoding code is perfectly normal - it's the layer upon layer of code above it that's the problem. |
| 00:26:35 | linuxstb | In fact, I'm tempted to change the ffmpeg decoder so it looks more similar to libFLAC - to try and spot any other possible bugs. |
| 00:27:12 | preglow | what i dislike about the libflac code is the structure |
| 00:27:24 | linuxstb | Maybe we were just using libFLAC in the wrong way - i.e. we should be using the lower-level functions and strip out a lot of the higher-level stuff. |
| 00:27:34 | preglow | sure, if that's possible |
| 00:27:41 | preglow | i haven't had a look at the api at all |
| 00:28:23 | linuxstb | But I think ffmpeg is the way to go. I'm now getting matching md5sums for both 16-bit and 24-bit files, so it's good enough for me. |
| 00:28:39 | linuxstb | ffmpeg just needs a little more tidying up. |
| 00:30:04 | preglow | any easily optimisable spots? |
| 00:30:51 | linuxstb | I haven't really looked at that side of it yet. The lpc_restore function is the obvious choice - using your EMAC routine from libFLAC |
| 00:31:17 | linuxstb | The bitreading functions might be able to be optimised as well, but I haven't looked at those at all. |
| 00:31:40 | preglow | could you paste me a source url again, please? |
| 00:31:48 | linuxstb | We've also got about 10KB left of IRAM. |
| 00:31:55 | linuxstb | Yes, I'll make a fresh archive. |
| 00:33:01 | | Nick Gibbed is now known as Rick (i=rick@pool-71-108-9-40.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) |
| 00:33:21 | preglow | god, i'm looking forward to when people will start asking for eq visualisation |
| 00:33:22 | linuxstb | http://www.davechapman.f2s.com/rockbox/newflac.tgz |
| 00:34:25 | preglow | hmm |
| 00:34:32 | preglow | you can't use the libflac asm routines as is |
| 00:34:58 | linuxstb | Why not? |
| 00:35:44 | preglow | looks like arrays are set up slightly differently |
| 00:35:57 | linuxstb | I was just about to look at it before I gave you the source. |
| 00:36:18 | preglow | residuals are stored in the sample arrays, for one |
| 00:37:34 | preglow | hmm |
| 00:38:34 | preglow | it's got a loop where i need to use fractional emac mode here |
| 00:38:46 | preglow | i wonder why i didn't have to do that in libflac |
| 00:39:43 | linuxstb | Which loop is that? |
| 00:40:07 | preglow | forget it |
| 00:40:13 | preglow | i haven't optimised that for libflac either |
| 00:40:35 | preglow | decode_subframe_lpc, lower part of the lower if |
| 00:40:51 | linuxstb | The wsum part? |
| 00:41:13 | preglow | yup |
| 00:41:24 | preglow | is that for files with a bitdepth of more than 32, or what? |
| 00:41:27 | linuxstb | That's the code I just had to add to fix 24-bit output. |
| 00:41:31 | preglow | ouch |
| 00:41:48 | linuxstb | It's the equivalent of lpc_restore_wide in libFLAC |
| 00:41:55 | preglow | yeah, i figured |
| 00:42:09 | preglow | well, optimising that might prove hard |
| 00:42:12 | linuxstb | I haven't tested that on the iRiver yet. |
| 00:42:27 | preglow | we might have to go the same route we did in libmusepack |
| 00:43:02 | linuxstb | I don't think it will be executed for 16-bit FLAC files though. So it's not that important. |
| 00:43:07 | preglow | nor do i |
| 00:43:31 | linuxstb | Also, FLAC is very bad at compressing 24-bit files. wavpack is a much better choice. |
| 00:43:46 | preglow | wavpack is a much better choice overall |
| 00:43:49 | preglow | if you ask me, at least |
| 00:44:34 | linuxstb | My 24-bit/44.1KHz FLAC examples are almost 1500kbit/s |
| 00:44:54 | preglow | damn, that's bad |
| 00:45:03 | preglow | how much for wavpack? |
| 00:45:10 | linuxstb | I'll test now. |
| 00:45:23 | preglow | wavpack can even compress 32 bit floats |
| 00:45:26 | preglow | it's pretty l33t |
| 00:45:48 | linuxstb | The file is 66% of the size - so I guess around 1000kbit/s |
| 00:45:54 | preglow | wow |
| 00:46:02 | linuxstb | Compressed in 3 seconds. |
| 00:46:26 | linuxstb | On a 2.8GHz Xeon. |
| 00:46:56 | preglow | but right now i'd give a pretty penny to understand what the flaming hell is wrong with this filtering routine |
| 00:47:20 | preglow | coef calculation is very precise, but the filtering itself seems to have some internal overflow problem |
| 00:47:27 | preglow | only problem is it's supposed to be impossible... |
| 00:47:29 | linuxstb | Sorry, I made a mistake. Wavpack is about the same as FLAC - 1432kps |
| 00:47:48 | linuxstb | The FLAC is 1496kbps |
| 00:47:56 | preglow | ahh, ok |
| 00:48:03 | preglow | about the same margins as for 16 bit audio, then |
| 00:48:18 | preglow | wavpack tends to be slightly better |
| 00:49:20 | linuxstb | Any idea if wavpack is easier to decode than FLAC, or is it just that David did a very good job. |
| 00:50:30 | preglow | i have no idea, really |
| 00:50:33 | preglow | i think a bit of both |
| 00:52:05 | linuxstb | I'm hoping we can get FLAC to a similar level. |
| 00:53:21 | preglow | would be nice, yeah |
| 00:55:52 | linuxstb | Ouch. My 24-bit files have about a 70% boost ratio. Compared to less than 10% for 16-bit files. |
| 00:56:24 | linuxstb | But they are playing perfectly. |
| 00:56:41 | preglow | well, go figure |
| 00:56:51 | preglow | it's suddenly 64 bit mul-o-rama in that code path |
| 00:57:15 | preglow | rest assured we can slice that drastically |
| 00:57:20 | preglow | but it'll always be slower, of course |
| 00:57:34 | linuxstb | I hope so. It's now boosting near 100% and pausing. |
| 00:57:48 | preglow | we can use the same trick we did in libmusepack |
| 00:58:36 | * | linuxstb goes and checks the cvs logs |
| 01:00 |
| 01:00:24 | preglow | combining an emac mul and an ordinary mul to do a 64 bit mul |
| 01:00:40 | preglow | amiconn also codec a much faster 64 bit shift |
| 01:00:45 | preglow | coded |
| 01:02:12 | linuxstb | Do you think we will get lots of complaints if I commit this new decoder before adding seeking support? |
| 01:02:43 | linuxstb | It seems that seeking is actually quite hard in FLAC files - mainly because each compressed frame doesn't include the frame length. |
| 01:03:43 | preglow | but flac files have seek tables, yeah? |
| 01:04:12 | preglow | don't know about complaints, but i'd say just commit it |
| 01:04:17 | linuxstb | Yes, but I think you still need to walk through the stream a little afterwards. |
| 01:05:01 | linuxstb | Have you read the bug reports on the forum thread I started about this decoder? |
| 01:05:25 | preglow | yup |
| 01:05:38 | linuxstb | I think these are general problems, not specific to my new decoder. But I'm not sure. |
| 01:05:55 | linuxstb | It seems some people are using old installations as well. |
| 01:06:06 | preglow | i'm sure they are as well |
| 01:06:19 | preglow | can't imagine how it can be otherwise |
| 01:07:48 | linuxstb | OK, I'll probably commit it tomorrow. Just to give others a chance to complain if they read this in the logs. |
| 01:10:31 | | Quit miner49er ("CGI:IRC") |
| 01:11:26 | preglow | sounds good |
| 01:15:19 | * | preglow kicks the lowshelf filter |
| 01:15:21 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 01:15:46 | linuxstb | Also, does anyone know why plugins/Makefile still links everything against the codec libraries? Is this just a leftover from the xxx2wav plugins and can be deleted? |
| 01:17:48 | preglow | no idea |
| 01:17:52 | | Quit SeeSchloss (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 01:27:34 | linuxstb | Looks like podzilla now runs on the Nano - so IPL has arrived. |
| 01:34:40 | preglow | now there's a good excuse to get one if i ever heard one |
| 01:35:09 | linuxstb | I'm just about to test podzilla for the first time on my ipod. |
| 01:37:00 | amiconn | preglow: As for the 64 bit shift-by-n routine, the idea is taken from the gcc routine, of course optimised ;) |
| 01:38:44 | amiconn | It also profits from the fact that we only need 32 bits of the final result |
| 01:42:17 | preglow | yup |
| 01:42:47 | preglow | ok, i'm really starting to hate fixed point now |
| 01:43:02 | amiconn | Fixed point is great ;) |
| 01:43:14 | amiconn | mandelbrot.rock uses fixed point as well |
| 01:43:39 | | Quit cYmen ("zZz") |
| 01:43:51 | amiconn | Format is 6.26, or 6.10 for low precision |
| 01:44:02 | preglow | yes, it's nice enough, but i'm not used to these kind of errors! |
| 01:46:25 | preglow | i'm really starting to grow sceptical about how fast a five band eq will be |
| 01:48:13 | preglow | quite luckily the filtering loop should be a breeze to write in asm |
| 01:59:38 | TiMiD | hi |
| 02:00 |
| 02:00:08 | TiMiD | anyone here still awake who speaks english well ? |
| 02:09:34 | linuxstb | I'm almost awake and English is my first language. |
| 02:11:41 | TiMiD | cool ;) |
| 02:12:01 | TiMiD | well I wrote a motivation letter |
| 02:12:15 | TiMiD | to find an internship in japan |
| 02:12:43 | TiMiD | but since english is not my mother tongue, it may not be very good |
| 02:12:53 | TiMiD | would you mind looking at it ? |
| 02:13:23 | linuxstb | I was about to go to bed. But if it can wait about 8 hours, I'll be happy to look at it in the morning. |
| 02:13:41 | TiMiD | hmm |
| 02:13:55 | linuxstb | Oh go on then. dave at dchapman.com :) |
| 02:14:05 | TiMiD | I would like to send it right now for them to read it in the morning |
| 02:14:23 | linuxstb | Yep - send it now and I'll have a look. |
| 02:14:51 | TiMiD | hmm |
| 02:14:56 | TiMiD | i put it on a ftp |
| 02:15:01 | linuxstb | no problem. |
| 02:15:10 | TiMiD | just tell me the big fault, it hasn't to be 100% correct |
| 02:16:04 | linuxstb | It's already 9.15am in Tokyo... |
| 02:16:23 | TiMiD | http://timidzone.free.fr/pub/motivation.txt |
| 02:16:28 | TiMiD | yes I know :) |
| 02:16:34 | TiMiD | I'm late :/ |
| 02:16:37 | | Join tvelocity [0] (n=tony@ipa135.6.tellas.gr) |
| 02:16:47 | TiMiD | (it's not very long) |
| 02:17:42 | linuxstb | s/finishing in my/finishing my/ |
| 02:17:56 | TiMiD | ok |
| 02:18:06 | linuxstb | Probably best to write "I am" instead of "I'm" in a formal letter. |
| 02:18:33 | TiMiD | ok I remve all the ' :p |
| 02:18:56 | linuxstb | ingineer should be engineer |
| 02:19:37 | TiMiD | ouch I'm not very awake too :) |
| 02:19:45 | linuxstb | In fact, I'll just edit it slightly and upload a new version. |
| 02:20:01 | TiMiD | ok |
| 02:20:18 | TiMiD | thnk you very much (you save my life !) |
| 02:22:26 | preglow | japanese people kill people with bad english? :P |
| 02:22:48 | preglow | no wonder they've got plenty of suicides, then |
| 02:23:01 | amiconn | linuxstb: I just had a quick look at alac.c - your clz routine is indeed rather inefficient |
| 02:23:24 | amiconn | Dunno how much it is called though |
| 02:23:40 | TiMiD | preglow: hmm I don't even know if they understand english well :p |
| 02:23:59 | amiconn | gcc has a rather clever clz routine |
| 02:24:24 | preglow | TiMiD: most people don't |
| 02:24:52 | preglow | so you'll have plenty of incentive to brush up on your spoken japanese |
| 02:25:03 | linuxstb | TiMiD: http://www.davechapman.f2s.com/rockbox/motivation.txt |
| 02:25:11 | linuxstb | Just minor changes - it was basically fine. |
| 02:25:32 | TiMiD | thank you very very much :) |
| 02:25:34 | linuxstb | I have one problem - "passionated" isn't a word. But I can't think of an alternative in that context. |
| 02:26:03 | | Join ashridah [0] (i=ashridah@220-253-120-138.VIC.netspace.net.au) |
| 02:26:24 | linuxstb | amiconn: What is the clz routine? |
| 02:26:32 | TiMiD | hmm |
| 02:26:58 | TiMiD | how would you say to have a passion ? |
| 02:27:20 | linuxstb | That's the problem, I can't think of a way to say that. I guess English people don't have passions :) |
| 02:27:24 | amiconn | count_leading_zeros() |
| 02:27:31 | TiMiD | hehe :) |
| 02:28:11 | TiMiD | I don't see another way to say it either :/ |
| 02:28:17 | linuxstb | amiconn: Yes. But it's not my function. The author even admits how awful it is. |
| 02:28:24 | TiMiD | (in french you would say it like that) |
| 02:28:38 | amiconn | I could find 'passionate' in my English-German dictionary |
| 02:28:47 | preglow | doesn't fit |
| 02:29:07 | linuxstb | Yes - just say "I am passionate about ..." |
| 02:29:36 | amiconn | linuxstb: Okay, so it's by the alac author, and yes, I read the comment |
| 02:29:38 | TiMiD | impassioned works ? |
| 02:29:47 | TiMiD | (I found it in the dictionnary) |
| 02:30:07 | linuxstb | TiMiD: "I am passionate about" fits your sentence perfectly. |
| 02:30:13 | TiMiD | ok :p |
| 02:30:57 | amiconn | linuxstb: I hope you used the 'correct' iram attributes for your new flac codec? ;) |
| 02:31:28 | linuxstb | Do they work in the codecs? |
| 02:31:28 | preglow | http://aggregate.org/MAGIC/#Leading Zero Count |
| 02:31:41 | amiconn | linuxstb: yes |
| 02:32:22 | TiMiD | when I think they will more probably use an automatic translator to understand this beautifull :( |
| 02:32:25 | amiconn | There's no real difference yet, except ICONST_ATTR allows putting const data into iram without dropping the 'const' |
| 02:32:31 | TiMiD | +letter |
| 02:32:45 | preglow | haha |
| 02:33:05 | amiconn | Using the correct attributes will help to see whether it's worth adding proper .ibss handling for codecs |
| 02:33:23 | TiMiD | hey let him go to bed now :) |
| 02:33:31 | linuxstb | I think it will be - flac.codec for example reduces down to about 8300 bytes without the buffers. |
| 02:33:52 | amiconn | Nice :) |
| 02:34:02 | preglow | oh? |
| 02:34:02 | linuxstb | It's scary. |
| 02:34:21 | preglow | so there's room for all of the codec in iram? |
| 02:34:29 | linuxstb | preglow: Yes, that's what I said the other day. |
| 02:34:51 | TiMiD | how much is your codec in size ? |
| 02:34:53 | preglow | there's still a lot of unused iram around for all codecs |
| 02:35:00 | linuxstb | Theres about 38KB of buffer and 8K of code.http://timidzone.free.fr/pub/motivation.txt |
| 02:35:07 | linuxstb | oops. |
| 02:35:11 | TiMiD | hehe :) |
| 02:35:17 | amiconn | lol |
| 02:35:22 | linuxstb | Pesky clipboard. Never forgets. |
| 02:35:28 | TiMiD | nono :) |
| 02:35:35 | TiMiD | it's a virus in my .txt |
| 02:35:46 | TiMiD | exploits a buffer averflow in notepad :p |
| 02:36:25 | linuxstb | Back to the IRAM - I should be using IDATA_ATTR for the data, and ICONST_ATTR for any lookup tables? |
| 02:37:27 | amiconn | IDATA_ATTR for initialised data, ICONST_ATTR for constant data and (most important) IBSS_ATTR for uninitialised data, e.g. buffers |
| 02:37:56 | amiconn | I think IDATA_ATTR will actually be used least in codecs, if at all |
| 02:38:23 | linuxstb | Yes - there is no use of it in my new FLAC decoder now. |
| 02:41:08 | amiconn | Even the core uses very little idata - 8 bytes (!) (h120) |
| 02:41:22 | amiconn | Plus 16 bytes iconst |
| 02:41:27 | | Quit tvelocity ("Leaving") |
| 02:43:42 | | Join webguest82 [0] (n=3a4d501d@labb.contactor.se) |
| 02:43:46 | webguest82 | hi~ |
| 02:47:32 | | Quit gromit` (Remote closed the connection) |
| 02:47:44 | preglow | hmm |
| 02:47:46 | TiMiD | hi webguest82 |
| 02:47:55 | preglow | there already is a db lookup table some place in rockbox? |
| 02:50:26 | TiMiD | 28 mails to send |
| 02:50:41 | TiMiD | the night will be short |
| 02:52:32 | webguest82 | bye~ |
| 02:53:04 | TiMiD | bye ? |
| 02:53:14 | TiMiD | you are short |
| 02:53:22 | webguest82 | :) |
| 02:53:34 | webguest82 | i live in korea |
| 02:53:39 | * | preglow slaps the lowshelf filter |
| 02:53:40 | TiMiD | I know :p |
| 02:53:45 | preglow | i'm off to bed, night all |
| 02:53:47 | TiMiD | I read the logs |
| 02:53:51 | TiMiD | gnight |
| 02:54:24 | webguest82 | It goes to the school. |
| 02:54:43 | webguest82 | good night |
| 02:55:00 | | Quit webguest82 ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") |
| 03:00 |
| 03:01:06 | TiMiD | Msjpcrc@microsoft.com |
| 03:01:30 | TiMiD | -________- |
| 03:02:46 | linuxstb | Goodnight all. Good luck TiMiD. |
| 03:05:16 | | Join gromit` [0] (n=gromit`@ras75-5-82-234-244-69.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 03:06:47 | TiMiD | thank you :) |
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| 04:00 |
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| 04:04:18 | alxcm | sup ppl? |
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| 04:08:48 | alxcm | odd |
| 04:08:52 | alxcm | "Codec Failure" |
| 04:09:03 | alxcm | when trying to play anything using today's daily build on my ihp120 |
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| 04:25:06 | gursikh | Hello |
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| 09:41:28 | phaedrus961 | amiconn (or anyone who's interested): I've updated the unicode patch with the changes you asked for |
| 09:41:41 | phaedrus961 | could you have another look when you have time? |
| 09:42:19 | phaedrus961 | I also managed to shave a couple hundred bytes off the binary size :) |
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| 11:26:10 | amiconn | phaedrus961: yes, tonight |
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| 11:49:10 | linuxstb | Morning all. |
| 11:50:33 | markun | Good mornig |
| 11:50:46 | linuxstb | preglow and I are both in favour of comitting the new flac decoder immediately (even though there is no seeking yet). Does anyone object? |
| 11:50:51 | muesli- | g'day m8s |
| 11:51:20 | markun | First step to arabic rockbox: http://130.89.160.166/rockbox/arabjoin.png |
| 11:52:48 | markun | the first line shows the current rendering. The second line is produced with a script that makes it joining. |
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| 12:00:45 | linuxstb_ | I've just realised why plugins/Makefile still links against the codec libs - the wav2wv plugin. |
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| 12:52:03 | linuxstb | Strange. I was playing music, then plugged in USB (with the music playing), and now I can hear a very faint radio signal in my headphones. |
| 12:52:17 | linuxstb | I haven't listened to the radio for days. |
| 12:53:08 | Slasheri | Hmm, that must be some other interference :) |
| 12:53:40 | linuxstb | Maybe. I just left USB mode (back to file browser), and it's silent again. |
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| 14:05:29 | muesli- | re |
| 14:11:43 | markun | hi muesli- |
| 14:11:57 | muesli- | hi |
| 14:37:17 | B4gder | nice commit linuxstb! |
| 14:37:33 | * | preglow applaudes |
| 14:37:40 | * | linuxstb bows |
| 14:37:59 | linuxstb | Now the fun commit - removing libFLAC :) |
| 14:38:10 | preglow | hmm |
| 14:38:21 | preglow | can't that wait for a bit? |
| 14:38:23 | linuxstb | Sure. |
| 14:38:31 | preglow | we might for some reason need to put it back in again |
| 14:38:50 | preglow | might as well wait until the new flac decoder is fully operations |
| 14:38:54 | preglow | operational <- |
| 14:39:05 | linuxstb | OK. I removed it from FILES, and it's not compiled any more. So there's no harm in leaving it there. |
| 14:39:45 | linuxstb | preglow, amiconn: Please feel free to work some EMAC magic on it. |
| 14:41:39 | preglow | will see what i can do |
| 14:42:01 | preglow | think i'll just modify the unrolled libflac one and drop it in somehow |
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| 14:48:46 | preglow | btw, does the wavpack decoder play 24 bit files with a big speed penalty as well? |
| 14:48:51 | preglow | if i remember correctly, it shouldn't |
| 14:49:56 | linuxstb | I remember seeing lots of 16-bit/44.1KHz assumptions in the code, but I haven't checked recently. |
| 14:50:17 | linuxstb | Maybe that was just the old wv2wav plugin though. |
| 14:51:00 | preglow | i think so |
| 14:51:09 | preglow | wavpack already uses a 64 bit mul, even for 16 bit data |
| 14:51:14 | preglow | so i think it should be able to cope very nicely |
| 14:51:16 | novimon | w00t, new flac encoder! |
| 14:51:19 | novimon | must check out |
| 14:51:20 | preglow | decoer! |
| 14:51:24 | preglow | decoder, even |
| 14:51:25 | novimon | decoder! :D |
| 14:51:31 | novimon | the old one was bugged |
| 14:51:48 | preglow | linuxstb: you think it'll be hard to add seeking? |
| 14:51:49 | linuxstb | How do you mean bugged? The only problem I knew about was that it was slow. |
| 14:52:00 | linuxstb | preglow: Not really. Just needs a couple of hours of concentration. |
| 14:52:16 | linuxstb | I should be able to do it in the next few days. |
| 14:52:21 | novimon | yeah the seeking was very very slow and the decoder used to skip |
| 14:52:29 | novimon | not so often thou but from time to time |
| 14:52:52 | linuxstb | Sadly, seeking is quite hard in raw FLAC files. OggFLAC would be better in this regard. |
| 14:53:39 | linuxstb | The size (in bytes) of a compressed frame isn't stored in the frame header. So you need to partially decode the frame in order to find its length. |
| 14:54:48 | linuxstb | I'm not sure how accurate the seek table normally is, but I'm guessing the implementation will be to seek to the closest frame using the seek table, and then walk the stream until we get to the correct frame. |
| 14:55:58 | preglow | a non-accurate seek table |
| 14:56:00 | preglow | what a concept |
| 14:56:18 | linuxstb | I mean the resolution of the seek table. |
| 14:58:15 | preglow | ahh, like that |
| 14:58:45 | linuxstb | Just checked - the default behaviour of the reference encoder is to insert seek points every 10 seconds. |
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| 14:59:10 | webguest82 | hi~ |
| 14:59:35 | preglow | linuxstb: that's not bad |
| 15:00 |
| 15:00:02 | linuxstb | No. I'll probably do a first implementation that just seeks to the nearest seek point. |
| 15:00:32 | linuxstb | It will be better than nothing. |
| 15:00:50 | preglow | indeed |
| 15:00:55 | amiconn | Why no interpolate between seekpoints, like with mp3 vbr? |
| 15:01:00 | amiconn | *not |
| 15:01:22 | preglow | that'll come |
| 15:01:51 | preglow | it'll become important when we are to support cue files |
| 15:02:16 | linuxstb | That's one approach - but you then have to sync to the start of the frame. Which is not easy as the sync code is not guaranteed to not appear inside frames. |
| 15:02:30 | amiconn | Imho we shouldn't support .cue files at all |
| 15:02:41 | preglow | why not? |
| 15:02:51 | novimon | .cue support would be awesome |
| 15:03:01 | linuxstb | If a FLAC file has an embedded cue file, then the cue points should have corresponding entries in the seek table. |
| 15:03:22 | amiconn | .cue files are a broken concept, imho |
| 15:03:35 | amiconn | They are for when the player doesn't support gapless. |
| 15:03:39 | preglow | nevertheless there are a lot of files using them out there |
| 15:04:07 | linuxstb | They have other uses - think of them as "chapter points" in a long recording. Other formats (such as m4a) include chapter points. |
| 15:04:24 | linuxstb | It is nice in some situations to not have to split your long file into individual tracks. |
| 15:05:04 | linuxstb | But I agree that they are often used as a workaround for players not supporting gapless. |
| 15:05:23 | preglow | sure, me too |
| 15:05:31 | preglow | but there are still nevertheless quite a lot of them around |
| 15:05:39 | preglow | and i'd like to have them supported |
| 15:05:44 | preglow | wavpack files also support embedded cue files |
| 15:05:48 | preglow | flac too, i believe |
| 15:06:18 | linuxstb | Yep. People use them to backup CDs to a single file. |
| 15:11:07 | amiconn | Really? I can't believe that, especially with lossless |
| 15:12:03 | linuxstb | I don't really understand, but I think a cuefile is needed for a 100% accurate backup. Storing things like CD-TEXT, hidden tracks etc |
| 15:12:06 | preglow | what's so hard to believe about it? i'd do it myself if i ever backed up my cds losslessly, heh |
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| 15:15:59 | amiconn | There are 2 points I don't understand: (1) Why should I backup a CD I have myself as lossless? (2) If I had a reason, why would I convert it to a single file and cuesheet? |
| 15:16:31 | linuxstb | 1) The same reason you back up anything of value |
| 15:16:34 | amiconn | I'd rather use individual files per track. They are more convenient to handle, especially with lossless |
| 15:16:45 | amiconn | Lossless files are huge |
| 15:16:48 | webguest82 | hi webguest38 |
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| 15:18:11 | linuxstb | 2) Because you want to preserve the CD perfectly. But on this point I agree with you - backing up to individual tracks is good enough for me. |
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| 15:20:32 | amiconn | linuxstb: I consider the CDs as my backup. I only rarely play directly from CD once I ripped them (to lossy format, single tracks) |
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| 15:22:43 | linuxstb | I'm not saying that _you_ must back up your CDs. Just that lots of other people do. I'm guessing those people actually play their CDs in a CD player. |
| 15:22:59 | ashridah | heh. i rarely play cds directly. |
| 15:23:06 | ashridah | (for obvious reasons) |
| 15:23:28 | preglow | i play cds all the time when i've got my cd player rigged up |
| 15:23:30 | preglow | which i haven't now |
| 15:23:31 | linuxstb | There is always the risk of theft as well. |
| 15:23:45 | preglow | but i understand why people back up cds perfectly |
| 15:23:50 | preglow | i just don't do it myself |
| 15:24:13 | ashridah | linuxstb: that one's bitten me. lost a lot of cds i didn't have in mp3 format at the time (ogg wasn't even v1.0 back then, flac was unknown to me) |
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| 22:20:30 | Moos | Hey guys! very quite day today :-) |
| 22:21:25 | Moos | markun/phaedrus961/amiconn: what's new about unicode ? |
| 22:23:19 | Moos | or preglow: what's new about your EQ? :D |
| 22:28:19 | CoCoLUS | why was the flac codec replaced? |
| 22:28:44 | XavierGr | because the new one is much faster. |
| 22:29:09 | XavierGr | decoding happens almost without cpu boosting. |
| 22:29:20 | CoCoLUS | ah... nice :) |
| 22:36:45 | TiMiD | hi Moos |
| 22:37:07 | TiMiD | today 55 mails ^^ |
| 22:37:27 | Moos | ouch |
| 22:37:32 | Moos | hi btw |
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| 22:49:26 | XavierGr | 55 mails? where? |
| 22:50:56 | TiMiD | japan companies |
| 22:51:15 | preglow | Moos: not much new, something wrong i need to figure out |
| 22:51:39 | preglow | once that is done, i just need to integrate it into rockbox and make some gui for it |
| 22:51:40 | Moos | ok, have a good "luck" :) |
| 22:51:42 | XavierGr | TiMiD: Why are you going to work over Japan? |
| 22:51:54 | Moos | preglow: oh, that sound good |
| 22:52:25 | preglow | Moos: might still take some time, don't hold your breath |
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| 22:52:29 | TiMiD | XavierGr: I'm indeed trying to |
| 22:52:35 | XavierGr | preglow: Where do you think that the user will get the EQ gui? Inside Playback settings maybe? |
| 22:52:54 | Moos | preglow: but good to hear you are working on it :) |
| 22:53:08 | preglow | XavierGr: well, i guess so |
| 22:53:10 | XavierGr | TiMiD: So you are going to move over to Japan? Why go this far? |
| 22:53:26 | preglow | XavierGr: personally i'd like a full graphical eq like screen, but i can't be bothered to do that |
| 22:53:32 | XavierGr | You are in France, aren't you? You can choose another EU country as well |
| 22:53:45 | TiMiD | XavierGr: because I'm a manga maniac ^^ |
| 22:53:47 | Moos | or the FRANCE as well :) |
| 22:53:50 | preglow | there is quite a difference between an eu country and japan, you know |
| 22:53:50 | preglow | hhe |
| 22:54:12 | TiMiD | well |
| 22:54:17 | TiMiD | I don't know why |
| 22:54:28 | XavierGr | preglow: That would be great, though once the EQ code is done the gui is just detail and can be done by abyone. |
| 22:54:29 | TiMiD | I'm attracted by this culture and language |
| 22:54:46 | TiMiD | (nothing to do with mangas though) |
| 22:54:46 | preglow | XavierGr: yes |
| 22:54:52 | TiMiD | it's just that |
| 22:54:57 | preglow | i'd love to learn japanese |
| 22:55:07 | XavierGr | So that is why you took Japanese as a lesson in your college, right? And what about your studies, did you finished? |
| 22:55:10 | preglow | i tried once, but i stopped after a while |
| 22:55:59 | Moos | depand in the motivation, if you want to work in Jap you could learn more easily |
| 22:56:01 | XavierGr | I am learning Japanese through Anime series and movies! :) |
| 22:56:09 | TiMiD | I will be done in january |
| 22:56:13 | preglow | had no use for it apart from playing snes rpgs in their original language anyway, heh |
| 22:56:13 | XavierGr | Konni chioua! |
| 22:56:18 | preglow | XavierGr: ahahah |
| 22:56:29 | preglow | you have some work to do on your spelling, young man! |
| 22:56:42 | TiMiD | XavierGr: learn the kanas first, that will help you :) |
| 22:56:46 | XavierGr | :p |
| 22:56:47 | preglow | TiMiD: i did |
| 22:56:55 | TiMiD | KO N NI CHI WA |
| 22:56:55 | preglow | TiMiD: forgotten most of them now, though |
| 22:57:08 | TiMiD | or HA |
| 22:57:22 | preglow | there's only one japanese word you need to know: BAKA |
| 22:57:23 | TiMiD | if you don't prictice them it's hard :) |
| 22:57:29 | XavierGr | lol |
| 22:57:32 | TiMiD | I prefer AHOU |
| 22:57:38 | XavierGr | anta baka? |
| 22:57:41 | XavierGr | :D |
| 22:58:03 | XavierGr | this is my favorite word! Especially wih the "anta" in front of it |
| 22:59:10 | TiMiD | anata |
| 22:59:11 | TiMiD | :) |
| 22:59:19 | TiMiD | anata no baka |
| 22:59:24 | XavierGr | So in what sort of job are you sending you CV for? |
| 22:59:34 | TiMiD | for computer engineer |
| 22:59:37 | preglow | baka yo |
| 22:59:55 | dwihno | Haiyaku, torihada-chen! |
| 23:00 |
| 23:00:01 | XavierGr | attashi baka! |
| 23:00:05 | XavierGr | :x |
| 23:00:12 | TiMiD | watashi :) |
| 23:00:21 | XavierGr | grrr |
| 23:00:21 | TiMiD | hayaku |
| 23:00:28 | XavierGr | I alwasys forget that |
| 23:00:36 | XavierGr | but I should have said boku |
| 23:01:08 | TiMiD | yep |
| 23:01:21 | TiMiD | you'r not a woomen (who knows ^^) |
| 23:01:29 | XavierGr | watashi sounds more cute! :) |
| 23:01:50 | XavierGr | boku ~ baka you know.... |
| 23:02:30 | preglow | linuxstb_: my, what i nice little codec libffmpegFLAC is |
| 23:03:02 | linuxstb_ | Yes, I know :) |
| 23:03:05 | TiMiD | if you say bak |
| 23:03:14 | TiMiD | then tou can call yourself 'ore' |
| 23:03:25 | TiMiD | since you don't use polite language ... |
| 23:03:26 | XavierGr | speaking of it which is the most optimized codec so far? |
| 23:03:28 | preglow | linuxstb_: but where does it store all the residuals and lpc and so on? does it use the pcm buffer for it or something? |
| 23:03:41 | linuxstb_ | I've just tested wavpack with 24-bit files, and they play fine, about 25% boost. |
| 23:04:16 | XavierGr | TiMiD: so any luck to get a job until now? |
| 23:04:18 | linuxstb_ | Yes, I think they are stored in the "decoded" arrays - these are the only buffers it uses. |
| 23:04:26 | amiconn | linuxstb_: 36 KB ibss, ~670 bytes iconst, no idata |
| 23:04:38 | amiconn | I hope the other codecs are similar... |
| 23:04:45 | preglow | linuxstb_: excellent, just excellent |
| 23:04:49 | linuxstb_ | I removed the final "convert to 16-bit and copy to different buffers" stage from the codec, so it now does it everything in-place. |
| 23:04:53 | preglow | linuxstb_: the libFLAC people have got a thing or two to learn here |
| 23:05:02 | TiMiD | XavierGr: time will tell but I'm not vry confident ... |
| 23:05:12 | TiMiD | I'll try USA if japan fails |
| 23:05:28 | TiMiD | at least I would have done the maximum I could do so no regret |
| 23:05:38 | preglow | XavierGr: the most optimised codec is probably libmad |
| 23:05:50 | XavierGr | TiMiD: Truth is that there must be a lot of competition there for this kind of job. |
| 23:05:55 | preglow | XavierGr: as in that's what's seen most optimisation work |
| 23:06:10 | linuxstb_ | Silence all day, and then everyone talks at once.... |
| 23:06:49 | XavierGr | preglow: libmad is vorbis? or... |
| 23:06:55 | preglow | XavierGr: mp1/2/3 |
| 23:07:01 | amiconn | If we would add separate bss and ibss handling, flac.codec would be a mere 9 KB... |
| 23:07:20 | XavierGr | ah yes the MAD |
| 23:08:45 | preglow | amiconn: and while i remember it, have you tested mp1 performance? |
| 23:09:24 | amiconn | I have just one mp1... but I could probably produce some test files with different bitrates |
| 23:09:40 | preglow | nothing imporant, i'm just wondering how good/bad it is |
| 23:09:45 | preglow | i haven't got even one mp1 file |
| 23:09:59 | amiconn | I can create them, with Pegase on Amiga |
| 23:10:11 | preglow | ahh |
| 23:10:16 | amiconn | It's a rather good layer 2 encoder, but also does layer 1 |
| 23:10:59 | amiconn | It's *really* fast compared to lame on Amiga, although not realtime |
| 23:11:09 | | Quit _DangerousDan (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 23:11:17 | linuxstb_ | So far I've managed to avoid malloc entirely in the new flac codec (libffmpeg had some which I removed). But the seek table will vary in size from about 200 bytes (for a typical 4 minute song with standard 10 second seek points) up to maybe 40KB-50KB for a very large (i.e. 2GB) file. |
| 23:11:44 | amiconn | On my A4000/060/50, lame is ~10% realtime with cbr and ~3% realtime with vbr. Pegase is ~50% realtime... |
| 23:12:46 | amiconn | Too bad it uses floating point... |
| 23:15:38 | preglow | i wonder when christian gmeiner will return |
| 23:15:43 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 23:15:59 | | Join muesli- [0] (i=muesli_t@hmln-d9b8efae.pool.mediaWays.net) |
| 23:16:00 | Bagder | I mailed him again a couple of days ago |
| 23:16:19 | Bagder | no reply so far |
| 23:16:50 | preglow | you bought a bdm for him, no? |
| 23:16:55 | Bagder | yes |
| 23:17:11 | Bagder | I asked him to mail it back to us if he doesn't plan on using it for Rockbox |
| 23:17:27 | muesli- | re |
| 23:17:28 | amiconn | Perhaps I should do some layer 1 and layer 2 test files and put them on my webspace. It sits mostly unused... |
| 23:17:46 | preglow | amiconn: would of course be nice, i have few such files myself |
| 23:17:57 | preglow | Bagder: yes, giving it to some other interested party would be nice |
| 23:18:05 | Bagder | exactly |
| 23:18:06 | amiconn | preglow: What do you think would be useful bitrates to test with? Should I use our famous digital flow thingy? |
| 23:18:49 | preglow | amiconn: you can do whatever you want in that regard, as for bitrates, the extremes would be nice, plus something in between |
| 23:19:14 | preglow | i think 44.1 khz will do for sample rate, i don't see any point in testing the resampler any further |
| 23:19:24 | preglow | i know it sucks anyway ;) |
| 23:22:33 | amiconn | I have 200MB webspace of which I'm currently using ~2MB only... |
| 23:23:01 | TiMiD | may I ask what the current status of my patch is ? |
| 23:23:02 | | Quit ender` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 23:23:06 | preglow | i've got five gigs of which i use around 10... |
| 23:23:15 | preglow | megs, that is |
| 23:23:26 | TiMiD | I'm a little bored to update it each time someone updates a file I modify |
| 23:23:50 | preglow | TiMiD: afaik, none of the core devs have time to look at it |
| 23:23:57 | preglow | i've got no idea about that area of rockbox, so can't help |
| 23:24:48 | preglow | i think i'll see about adapting my libflac lpc patch |
| 23:25:50 | markun | amiconn: Do you have time to try out the unicode patch? There are some problems with the text viewer, but phaedrus961 said he will take a look at it. |
| 23:25:53 | XavierGr | preglow do you have any realtion to the FM radio cado for iriver? I've got the preset file patch pending... :p |
| 23:26:01 | TiMiD | lol |
| 23:26:07 | preglow | XavierGr: no relation, no |
| 23:26:10 | XavierGr | RPFLMAO |
| 23:26:11 | TiMiD | all patches coming at the same time ^^ |
| 23:26:16 | preglow | come to me for codecs and dsp, heh |
| 23:26:54 | Moos | TiMiD: the time when Linus, Bagder... apear don't have lot of time :-( |
| 23:26:57 | TiMiD | I only got LinusN and amiconn opinions about remote |
| 23:27:10 | Moos | we all want it sure :) |
| 23:27:10 | TiMiD | other one have looked at it ? |
| 23:27:15 | TiMiD | don't be shy :) |
| 23:27:25 | preglow | TiMiD: well, what more do you want? |
| 23:27:44 | Moos | commit :D |
| 23:27:54 | preglow | TiMiD: if you've got linus' and amiconn's opinions, you've got some very influential opinions and should probably do what they say ;) |
| 23:28:01 | XavierGr | how was the feedback of Linus and amiconn, bar or good? |
| 23:28:07 | TiMiD | I've done it :p |
| 23:28:12 | XavierGr | ^bad |
| 23:29:11 | amiconn | preglow: I'll do a 'typical' and a maximum bitrate version for layer 1 and 2 each |
| 23:29:13 | TiMiD | good :) |
| 23:29:19 | TiMiD | I think |
| 23:29:38 | amiconn | layer 1: 256/448 kbps layer 2: 192/384 kbps |
| 23:29:40 | markun | LinusN was quite positive I think |
| 23:29:54 | Moos | yeah he liked it :) |
| 23:30:23 | Moos | but those last weeks he don't have time for Rockbox |
| 23:30:56 | XavierGr | I cant wait for commitment, imagine full remtote support and full recording support that Slasheri is working on. |
| 23:31:09 | Moos | Bagder: any opinion? |
| 23:31:29 | TiMiD | it would be good then that some people test it on real targets (I only hve tested on sim and iriver) |
| 23:31:52 | TiMiD | nad then if it doesn't beaks anything why not a commit |
| 23:33:07 | Moos | TiMiD: why don't continu to work on it, currently just file tree; right? |
| 23:33:31 | XavierGr | well I feel him |
| 23:33:43 | TiMiD | because it would be such a huge work to maintain it |
| 23:33:45 | Moos | you already know it will be one day or other for sure |
| 23:33:54 | XavierGr | if this is not going to be commited there is no point to continue |
| 23:34:00 | Moos | it will |
| 23:34:13 | TiMiD | but it's still not in it |
| 23:34:14 | Moos | but when, that is the question :) |
| 23:34:16 | markun | TiMiD: Does it break a lot when you use cvs update? |
| 23:34:27 | TiMiD | break ? |
| 23:34:36 | markun | conflict |
| 23:34:42 | | Join DangerousDan [0] (n=Miranda@newtpulsifer.campus.luth.se) |
| 23:34:45 | markun | Or do you not use cvs update? |
| 23:34:55 | TiMiD | I use CVS update |
| 23:35:06 | TiMiD | but I can't do it on my current source tree |
| 23:35:16 | markun | Why not? |
| 23:35:22 | TiMiD | since some files are deeply modified |
| 23:35:46 | amiconn | I think as soon as either remote lcd or unicode gets committed, the other patch will suffer from a number of conflicts |
| 23:36:00 | TiMiD | :/ |
| 23:36:15 | markun | Yes, probably. |
| 23:36:42 | markun | although I applied both TiMiD's patch and the unicode patch.. |
| 23:36:57 | TiMiD | I don't mind if it's one other big update |
| 23:37:03 | markun | Can't remember many conflicts |
| 23:37:18 | preglow | ooh |
| 23:37:21 | preglow | i love big changes |
| 23:37:27 | TiMiD | since I understand the code I can modify it |
| 23:37:53 | TiMiD | but what I don'tlike is contant little changes to files day by day :D |
| 23:38:06 | TiMiD | (welle it happens twice a week) |
| 23:39:21 | XavierGr | TiMiD: I know exactly what you mean. I had to that for the remote patch (before Firefly). Though I knew that this kind of buggy work would never be commited i tried to update every day. Then I lost interest (I didn't had the time too) and the patch became obsolete. |
| 23:39:53 | Moos | TiMiD: is it understandable, who love it :-( |
| 23:40:00 | TiMiD | yep |
| 23:40:10 | TiMiD | it's not an interresting work |
| 23:40:21 | TiMiD | work of a machine :) |
| 23:40:31 | Moos | :-( |
| 23:40:47 | Moos | you don't have luck both you and Xavier |
| 23:40:49 | TiMiD | that's why I didn't made a huge patch like firefly or xavier's wone |
| 23:40:51 | markun | TiMiD: I tried your patch again. No conflicts with the unicode patch, so that's good. |
| 23:40:58 | TiMiD | ok |
| 23:41:02 | TiMiD | great ^^ |
| 23:41:11 | Moos | when Linus have time he applied patch, work... but those weeks busy |
| 23:41:13 | TiMiD | I suppose you work in lower areas :p |
| 23:42:21 | TiMiD | shit |
| 23:42:40 | TiMiD | I was goingto write to an indian company ;) |
| 23:43:04 | TiMiD | I think I'm done with mails for this evening |
| 23:43:26 | Moos | (reposes toi ;-) ) |
| 23:43:50 | XavierGr | at least you should use copy and paste TiMiD! |
| 23:44:40 | TiMiD | lol |
| 23:45:01 | TiMiD | do you think I type each mail with love and tenderness ? |
| 23:45:42 | TiMiD | I have a template ready in my mailbox and I only have a few things to change |
| 23:45:47 | XavierGr | Saiyu sen jiko yo <- is this phrase translates to very important or high priority? |
| 23:46:48 | TiMiD | I don't know |
| 23:46:54 | TiMiD | are you sure for the saiyu ? |
| 23:47:22 | XavierGr | it is a very hilarious phrase that I hear on an anime series... |
| 23:48:22 | XavierGr | well I typed it from a subtitle and yes it has the hearing of it, though I dont know if it is right |
| 23:48:59 | XavierGr | is typing Jpanase in latin characters normal? |
| 23:49:55 | TiMiD | if it was saiku I could say it would mean something like "very important work" or smth like that (I'm far far away from a good japanese speaker) |
| 23:50:28 | XavierGr | then what are you going to do in Japan?? Just kidding... |
| 23:50:45 | TiMiD | I wonder |
| 23:52:44 | preglow | XavierGr: pretty normal, it's called romaji |
| 23:52:56 | preglow | XavierGr: but mostly done by learners |
| 23:53:10 | TiMiD | I find it difficult to read ;( |
| 23:53:13 | XavierGr | That reminds me of Greeklish |
| 23:53:14 | markun | like pinjing in chinese |
| 23:53:24 | TiMiD | I'm most used to hiraganas and some kanjis |
| 23:53:27 | XavierGr | though it's usage is only in chatrooms |
| 23:53:42 | TiMiD | XavierGr: why ? |
| 23:53:53 | TiMiD | you can type japanes in chatrooms |
| 23:54:02 | XavierGr | why use it only in chatrooms or forums? |
| 23:54:10 | TiMiD | こんばんは |
| 23:54:11 | XavierGr | or why use it at all? |
| 23:54:15 | XavierGr | ? |
| 23:54:25 | XavierGr | garbage |
| 23:54:40 | TiMiD | it's UTF-8 |
| 23:54:49 | TiMiD | you must be in iso |
| 23:55:21 | XavierGr | yes, what if I type this: ; |
| 23:55:22 | preglow | looking at this asm again made me want a stiff drink |
| 23:56:55 | TiMiD | lol |
| 23:56:59 | amiconn | Hmpfz :/ My provider doesn't allow dir listings on the server when there is no idex file |
| 23:57:07 | amiconn | *index |
| 23:57:39 | | Quit Febs ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") |
| 23:57:42 | XavierGr | TiMiD: The main usage of Greeklish (greek language written with latin characters) can be encountered only in chatrooms or informal Forum. |
| 23:57:59 | muesli- | btw we have denglish ;) |
| 23:58:16 | Bagder | and we have svengelska |
| 23:58:23 | amiconn | hehe |
| 23:58:30 | TiMiD | and I love my french :) |
| 23:58:32 | markun | Friends in Colombia you Espanglish |
| 23:58:49 | TiMiD | (no franglish doens't exists yet :p ) |
| 23:58:52 | XavierGr | The main reason to use this is write a little bit faster because with only latin characters you represnt the word as it is read instead of writing it. |
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