| 00:00:30 | markun | DerPapst: BoS |
| 00:00:56 | DerPapst | heh.. to get Microsoft sam say "Plugins" i have to enter "Plugkins" :D |
| 00:01:02 | ddalton | does anyone want an extra setting that says "voice time as?" or just use the one that is called "time format" |
| 00:01:20 | DerPapst | markun: isn't that because rockbox already sounds like a bos? |
| 00:01:21 | n1s | ddalton: I think you should go with the existing setting |
| 00:01:48 | n1s | markun: how is the GSoC tts thing coming along? |
| 00:01:56 | markun | n1s: pretty bad |
| 00:02:00 | rasher | ddalton: I think it should just follow the regular time format. Even though I'd probably set it to 24 for display and 12 hour for speech if I had the option, I don't think it's necessary to add an option. |
| 00:02:07 | | Quit matsl (Remote closed the connection) |
| 00:02:13 | DerPapst | what is TTSbox using btw? flite or espeak? |
| 00:02:14 | markun | n1s: today I got an email that he has even less time |
| 00:02:17 | markun | flite |
| 00:02:29 | blithe | Does anyone else find that if they set a background by browsing a file that it doesn't remain after rockbox is rebooted? |
| 00:02:42 | | Join My_Sic [0] (n=MySic@mur31-1-82-237-204-133.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 00:02:42 | markun | I wanted to use espeak, but I figured it was his choice |
| 00:02:46 | n1s | markun: ah, too bad, it would have been a very nice feature |
| 00:03:00 | markun | n1s: maybe I'll do a espeak por |
| 00:03:02 | markun | t |
| 00:03:11 | saratoga | what does that text to speech project actually involve? |
| 00:03:14 | markun | but it requires quite some changes |
| 00:03:22 | saratoga | integerizing the engine or mostly porting it to rockbox? |
| 00:03:28 | n1s | markun: how does espeak compare to flite in quality? |
| 00:03:40 | markun | saratoga: so far it was just turning flite into a rockbox plugin |
| 00:03:59 | DerPapst | so what is better then when espeak sounds like a BoS how does flite sound compared to this... even worse? |
| 00:04:16 | markun | n1s: flite uses real voice samples, espeak is synthesized form formants mixed with samples |
| 00:04:43 | preglow | jhMikeS: think i've got something now |
| 00:04:44 | markun | s/form/from/ |
| 00:04:48 | ddalton | ok I can add that later then but when I put this one up it will just use the setting there now. |
| 00:04:51 | preglow | jhMikeS: will be sure to report success tomorrow :P |
| 00:05:36 | rasher | Bagder: committed, yell at me if things catch fire |
| 00:05:37 | jhMikeS | preglow: what does a "vinyl amp" do? |
| 00:05:42 | markun | DerPapst: I think it's a taste thing. I prefer espeak, but other people prefer flite |
| 00:05:43 | n1s | ddalton: I think you should actually avoid adding another setting, too many settings is not good |
| 00:05:52 | | Quit sneakums (Remote closed the connection) |
| 00:06:06 | preglow | jhMikeS: just do the inverse of the vinyl cutting process, apply an inverse riaa eq filter and gain |
| 00:06:19 | | Join sneakums [0] (n=sneakums@jenny.ondioline.org) |
| 00:07:11 | preglow | jhMikeS: i've got an amp here that only has line ins, so i'd need a vinyl amp to connect my vinyl deck to it |
| 00:07:12 | markun | preglow: what are you working on? turning rockox into a phono amp? |
| 00:07:14 | jhMikeS | to play phonograph records through the DAP? *l* |
| 00:07:16 | preglow | markun: yeap |
| 00:07:27 | markun | :) |
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| 00:07:29 | preglow | jhMikeS: vinyl deck -> h120 -> line in |
| 00:07:56 | | Join dup [0] (i=d9b95459@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-a85fbaf1ff42d505) |
| 00:08:04 | jhMikeS | work on something for wax cylinders too...I'm really into that ;) |
| 00:09:29 | preglow | haha |
| 00:09:52 | DerPapst | wow... at&t sounds really awesome copared to everything else i've heared so far |
| 00:10:04 | DerPapst | *compared |
| 00:10:13 | dup | Hello. I observe the following on my H120 with r14246: when I activate the option "directory cache" (it was disabled before) I get "Please reboot to enable". After rebooting, the disc is spinning and but the end, the message "Filetype buffer full" is shortly displayed. Any ideas? |
| 00:10:36 | Llorean | dup: Ignore it, for now. |
| 00:10:56 | dup | Llorean: so there is no error and it's harmless? |
| 00:11:36 | Llorean | It depends. It affects viewers.config, the last file type (or last few) will not work in it. |
| 00:12:53 | dup | Ok. Also, the shortcuts pluging doesn't work for me, But it's the last entry in the viewers.config, so it's probably related to your last post |
| 00:13:20 | preglow | hrm |
| 00:13:25 | preglow | what's the max gain of the line in port? |
| 00:14:07 | dup | When I select a dir and choose "Add to shortcuts" from the context menu, nothing happens. The .link file doesn't get cretated. |
| 00:14:43 | dup | It should be created in the root folder, right? |
| 00:14:59 | petur | preglow: 24dB? |
| 00:15:15 | petur | that is before using the decimator |
| 00:15:27 | petur | total is 48dB iirc |
| 00:15:48 | Llorean | Bagder: Could the voice creation be done in mingw32 with some changes? (I'm not familiar with its limitations at all) |
| 00:15:53 | DerPapst | wow.. at&t german is even better than the english version o.O |
| 00:16:16 | preglow | petur: should do nicely for me, then |
| 00:16:19 | Bagder | Llorean: it probably can, I'm not that familiar with that setup either |
| 00:17:29 | | Part brent0n |
| 00:17:47 | * | petur gets another file type array full splash and wonders what got added |
| 00:18:26 | dup | petur: I have "link" at the end |
| 00:19:31 | petur | let's increase the array then... |
| 00:20:16 | * | n1s votes for most useless comment of the day, http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/7562 |
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| 00:20:31 | dup | petur: can't it be increased automatically? E.g. by defining some "end marker" constant and using it as the array size? |
| 00:20:33 | | Quit sneakums (Remote closed the connection) |
| 00:20:53 | | Quit saratoga ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)") |
| 00:20:55 | petur | dup: it's not that the list grows every day |
| 00:21:13 | DerPapst | but every 2 it seems :P |
| 00:21:21 | Llorean | Bagder: I imagine that'd be a more flexible solution for users of screen readers, though I don't really know. |
| 00:21:40 | | Join haemmy [0] (n=stefan@194.208.162.140) |
| 00:21:43 | | Part n1s |
| 00:21:47 | dup | petur: "petur gets _another_ file type..." (c) petur ;-) |
| 00:21:49 | Bagder | yeah, since the biggest hurdle for them with cygwin is their terrible install thing |
| 00:22:30 | preglow | would anyone think a vinyl amp plugin worth commiting? :> |
| 00:23:02 | Llorean | preglow: I think a lot of people would love to see *any* DSP plugin, just as a sample of how it can be done |
| 00:23:03 | * | DerPapst wonders what that could be... |
| 00:23:34 | Llorean | Bagder: Was it pondlife working on getting it working in cygwin? |
| 00:23:42 | Bagder | yes |
| 00:24:02 | petur | does the "filetype array full" also come on non sw-codec players? |
| 00:24:03 | Llorean | I wonder if he'd be willing to give it a shot. I neither speak shell nor know how to talk to TTS in Windows at all. :) |
| 00:24:19 | ddalton | In settings.h there is a variable called timeformat can I do this in main_menu.c? if (timeformat ==1) |
| 00:24:34 | preglow | Llorean: then jhMikeS should definitely commit his ringmod code |
| 00:24:35 | Llorean | petur: I'm kinda surprised we even get that. I rather imagined it could be allocated at boot. |
| 00:25:11 | | Join sneakums [0] (n=sneakums@jenny.ondioline.org) |
| 00:25:37 | petur | not worth it. Whoever adds something should check this |
| 00:25:56 | | Quit Soul-Slaye1 ("Leaving.") |
| 00:25:57 | dup | Has anybody (successfuly) used the shortcuts plugin? |
| 00:26:28 | dup | petur: put this as a comment into the viewers.config? |
| 00:26:31 | Llorean | dup: Many people have. It was tested after all |
| 00:26:56 | petur | be patient I'll commit after testing |
| 00:27:10 | | Join maffe [0] (n=maffe@barmen.interhost.no) |
| 00:27:12 | * | Llorean definitely prefers espeak of the three options |
| 00:27:14 | dup | Llorean: yes, that I also have assumed. But somehow I fail to create the shortcuts file :-/ |
| 00:27:57 | rasher | ddalton: if ( global_settings.timeformat ) |
| 00:28:39 | markun | Llorean: do you know if flite is compiled to use the 8kHz or the 16kHz voice? |
| 00:28:42 | dup | Llorean: what file should I look for? |
| 00:28:43 | rasher | ddalton: if that's true, then you have 12-hour clock. Alternatively, global_settings.timeformat can be either 0 or 1 for 24 or 12-hour clock respectively |
| 00:29:49 | | Quit Rick ("I… don't need to be here.") |
| 00:29:51 | DerPapst | good n ight everyone :) |
| 00:29:51 | Llorean | markun: How can I check? Though it's partially how words are pronounced too. |
| 00:29:55 | | Quit DerPapst ("So Long And Thanks For All The Fish!") |
| 00:30:02 | rasher | markun: "* Link flite(1) with 16bit voice by default"? |
| 00:30:16 | ddalton | thanks I will give that a go. |
| 00:30:17 | rasher | (in debian.changelog.gz) |
| 00:30:51 | | Quit wippeout ("leaving") |
| 00:30:56 | Bagder | ok test voice built fine with script |
| 00:31:07 | Bagder | updated daily build script for tomorrow's build |
| 00:31:38 | rasher | And I didn't even need to use my complimentary "oops" commit. |
| 00:31:43 | Bagder | hehe |
| 00:32:01 | Bagder | don't let me spoil the fun! |
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| 00:34:46 | petur | dup: new build to test in 3 minutes.... |
| 00:35:08 | petur | shortcuts creation and usage works fine here now |
| 00:35:38 | dup | petur: Now? So the fix also fixes this and not only the message? |
| 00:36:28 | petur | the message was an indication that ther was a problem |
| 00:36:36 | petur | +e |
| 00:37:21 | | Quit miepchen^schlaf (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 00:37:25 | dup | Wow! Cool countdown on the build page! |
| 00:37:38 | | Join aowzone [0] (i=aowzone@c-68-51-107-246.hsd1.in.comcast.net) |
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| 00:37:47 | petur | dup: try now |
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| 00:37:53 | | Join sneakums [0] (i=sneakums@jenny.ondioline.org) |
| 00:38:14 | aowzone | hey guys...im looking for some help...last weekend i taped a show, and ran out of battery about 3/4 of the way through the set...i have a partial wav file, but i cant seem to open it...i thought i read something about reparing this sort of thing once or was i imagining it? |
| 00:38:30 | markun | rasher: I maybe I was confusing bit with hz :) |
| 00:38:45 | markun | anyway, time for some sleep |
| 00:38:59 | petur | aowzone: somebody at taperssection.com has written a tool to repair them |
| 00:39:17 | petur | let me find the thread |
| 00:39:20 | aowzone | damn...tahts where it saw it! it wasnt at rockbox! |
| 00:39:31 | aowzone | haha i was tearing apart the wiki...i shoulda know it was TS |
| 00:39:33 | petur | <g> |
| 00:39:45 | aowzone | thanks petur...perhaps yuo know better what to look for, could you link me? |
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| 00:41:52 | | Quit ctaylorr (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 00:44:08 | | Quit obo ("bye") |
| 00:44:45 | petur | aowzone: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,72936.0i.html |
| 00:45:14 | petur | I always see that link, and when you search for it you can't find it :) |
| 00:45:42 | aowzone | thank you! |
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| 00:48:49 | aowzone | damn...failed to read header from wav file |
| 00:49:42 | petur | aowzone: you can always import it as raw data in an audio editor |
| 00:49:43 | | Join pixelma_ [0] (i=pixelma@rockbox/staff/pixelma) |
| 00:49:52 | aowzone | i think i tried that too...let me try again |
| 00:50:54 | aowzone | yeah, soundforge 9 wont open it either |
| 00:51:25 | petur | you managed to copy the file to pc? |
| 00:51:39 | aowzone | nope |
| 00:51:41 | XavierGr | shouldn't have rockbox shutdown properly the device before shutting down from low battery? |
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| 00:51:49 | aowzone | it should have Xavier...but apparently didnt |
| 00:52:00 | XavierGr | interesting... |
| 00:52:03 | aowzone | its a 400 something mb file...so it recorded something and tried to save it |
| 00:52:09 | petur | aowzone: then run a chkdsk /f on the drive first |
| 00:52:16 | aowzone | ok petur i will do that! |
| 00:52:53 | aowzone | convert lost chains to files? |
| 00:52:59 | petur | XavierGr: there are obviously still issues when recording and encountering low batt or disk full |
| 00:53:00 | | Quit haemmy () |
| 00:53:17 | petur | aowzone: yes |
| 00:53:28 | aowzone | ok, done |
| 00:53:30 | aowzone | let me try now |
| 00:53:30 | XavierGr | pitty that we can't say that it's completely secure |
| 00:53:35 | Llorean | petur: Well, there's always a point where the battery is too low to spin up the disk again. |
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| 00:54:12 | XavierGr | Llorean: I thought that Rockbox was programmed to shut down before that happens |
| 00:54:30 | XavierGr | though with worse batteries it can come quickly |
| 00:54:37 | aowzone | Existing header data. Look for the words 'RIFF', 'WAVE', 'fmt', |
| 00:54:37 | aowzone | or 'data' to see if this is even a somewhat valid WAVE header: |
| 00:54:37 | aowzone | 00000000: 52 49 46 46 00 00 00 00 57 41 56 45 66 6D 74 20 RIFF....WAVEfmt |
| 00:54:37 | DBUG | Enqueued KICK aowzone |
| 00:54:37 | aowzone | 00000010: 10 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................ |
| 00:54:37 | aowzone | 00000020: 00 00 10 00 64 61 74 61 00 00 00 00 ....data.... |
| 00:54:41 | aowzone | thats what i get after a fixwav |
| 00:55:00 | Llorean | XavierGr: And you can have a significant amount of time during playback left, even if the battery is too low for a future upcoming spinup. |
| 00:55:12 | Llorean | aowzone: Please don't make large pastes to the channel |
| 00:55:17 | aowzone | sorry |
| 00:55:30 | petur | aowzone: that's ok, it is just that the length isn't filled in |
| 00:55:36 | XavierGr | Llorean: yes it can be another 30 minutes on some occasions |
| 00:55:38 | aowzone | ok, how do i fill that? |
| 00:55:46 | petur | the repair tool can't handle that? |
| 00:55:52 | aowzone | ah, i shouldnt have exited |
| 00:55:54 | aowzone | i think i see now |
| 00:56:00 | dup | petur: thanks. Everything works now. Except one thing: my link file contains only one entry but when I select ("play") the file this one entry is displayed. But maybe the pluging works this way now. I've read that in this case it should directly go to the dir. |
| 00:56:03 | | Quit sneakums (Nick collision from services.) |
| 00:56:14 | Llorean | XavierGr: Perhaps recording, though, should be more conservative on when it chooses to shut down (if this is possible) |
| 00:56:31 | petur | dup: with only one link it also shows the link here |
| 00:56:40 | petur | maybe a bug? |
| 00:56:42 | Llorean | petur, dup: Is this the main link file, or an arbitrary other one? |
| 00:56:48 | aowzone | wow! it worked!!! |
| 00:56:50 | aowzone | thanks petur!!!! |
| 00:56:50 | XavierGr | yeah but then again voltage drop on worse batteries can be very quick... |
| 00:57:06 | petur | ah right, maybe only for link files != main |
| 00:57:14 | XavierGr | so even if it will be changed to be more conservative problems might still occur with very bad batteris |
| 00:57:15 | petur | aowzone: np |
| 00:57:23 | Llorean | petur: It is specifically only for link files != main. :) |
| 00:57:27 | dup | yes, this was the main (default) link file |
| 00:57:34 | petur | right |
| 00:57:39 | dup | case closed then! :-) |
| 00:57:41 | Llorean | For the main one, he wanted to preserve the option to delete the last link within it, etc. |
| 00:57:44 | Llorean | If I recall |
| 00:57:51 | aowzone | someone should put that info in the wiki! |
| 00:57:53 | petur | sounds reasonable |
| 00:58:22 | dup | is it possible to somehow call this link file if the file filter is set to "music"? |
| 00:58:33 | aowzone | thanks guys, goodnight! |
| 00:58:41 | | Quit aowzone () |
| 00:59:00 | Llorean | dup: Try "supported" |
| 00:59:10 | Llorean | Obviously a link file is not "music" |
| 00:59:17 | Llorean | ;) |
| 00:59:57 | dup | Llorean: yes, I see :-) I thought about a menu entry (please don't shoot) |
| 01:00 |
| 01:00:44 | dup | so that the shortcuts are always at hand |
| 01:01:06 | Llorean | Just put them in a folder in the root of your player. |
| 01:02:22 | Llorean | There are people who want all kinds of things added to the main menu (podcasts, videos, ebooks, text, pictures, now favourites, etc, etc) if they were all added it'd pretty much remove the point of having them there for the purpose of getting to them quickly |
| 01:02:39 | Llorean | Meanwhile your root folder is rather a flexible place in regard to what you put in it, and what you don't mark as hidden. |
| 01:03:16 | dup | I'll do this. BTW: wouldn't it be nice to be able to have a "readable names" for the folders? Folders names can be very long, and it will be a pain to read such list |
| 01:03:41 | Llorean | I have no idea what you mean by "readable names" |
| 01:04:49 | dup | We could e.g. add an optional tab separated "short name" for an entry. E.g. the folder is "/blah/hgfjhgf/jhgjhg/jkjhk/sfdsgf/" (long), but it would apper as "tralala" (short) in the list |
| 01:05:38 | dup | The line in the file would then contain that long folder path<TAB>tralala |
| 01:05:59 | dup | If there is no TAB then the folder is shown as is |
| 01:06:16 | Llorean | Ah, for the favourites plugin |
| 01:06:28 | dup | Ehm, shortcuts you mean? |
| 01:06:30 | | Join basscade1 [0] (i=sneakums@jenny.ondioline.org) |
| 01:06:36 | Llorean | Sorry, I'm used to the original name of it. :-P |
| 01:06:55 | Llorean | It took me ages to stop referring to them as "CVS builds" |
| 01:07:10 | Llorean | Anyway, that sounds reasonable. If you write it, post it to the tracker. |
| 01:07:13 | dup | Another option could be to show folders as is but just the last segment (or the last N segments) |
| 01:08:06 | | Quit FOAD ("I'll be back") |
| 01:08:35 | dup | Llorean: I'll think about this. But not today anymore. |
| 01:08:54 | | Quit dup ("CGI:IRC 0.5.7 (2005/06/19)") |
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| 01:20:50 | bluebrother | Domonoky: for the logs, I started looking into it and was wondering if it's better to extend the ZipInstaller class or to create a new one. |
| 01:21:21 | bluebrother | but I just got home today, was quite busy −− so no time to work on that today. Hopefully it will be better tomorrow. |
| 01:21:30 | | Quit bluebrother ("nite") |
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| 01:23:37 | ToHellWithGA | hey Llorean i'll pick on you since you're here often. do you know if i can safely repartition my ipod? i'd like to break the large part into 50% fat32 for ipod use and 50% ext3 so i can store files larger than 4 GB |
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| 01:33:22 | petur | do we have a location to report flyspray errors? |
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| 01:38:46 | petur | JdGordon: around? |
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| 01:43:56 | JdGordon | petur: not really, about to head off... |
| 01:44:00 | JdGordon | if its quick..... |
| 01:44:16 | petur | nm, I think I found it myself |
| 01:44:30 | petur | sorry to bother |
| 01:44:33 | JdGordon | ok cool, no worries |
| 01:44:35 | JdGordon | ttyl |
| 01:44:39 | | Quit JdGordon ("Konversation terminated!") |
| 01:48:01 | scorche | ToHellWithGA: that should be fine as long as you do that to the end of the partitions...also, there is no need to direct a question to a particular person |
| 01:48:33 | Ctcp | Ignored 1 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood |
| 01:48:33 | * | petur wonders who GA is |
| 01:50:04 | petur | bah I hate this menu macro stuff.... *heads over to wiki and hopes JdGordon explained it well* |
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| 01:56:22 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
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| 02:00 |
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| 02:07:04 | tihoc4n | Hi, I have a question about vorbis, well .ogg to be specific will this ever be implemented? http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/MIME_Types_and_File_Extensions |
| 02:07:35 | ToHellWithGA | scorche: thanks man. i just figured some of yall were around more than others |
| 02:07:37 | ToHellWithGA | cheers |
| 02:08:09 | scorche | yes, but highlighting a specific person isnt considered "nice" when you dont need them specifically |
| 02:08:22 | scorche | as well, if you screw up, there are MBRs in the wiki |
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| 02:15:31 | saratoga | tihoc4n: what specifically on that page? |
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| 02:20:42 | * | petur gives the menu code an angry look |
| 02:26:58 | tihoc4n | saratoga: The .oga extension for vorbis audio, sorry I should have been more specific. |
| 02:30:38 | | Quit krazykit ("bbiam") |
| 02:32:37 | saratoga | tihoc4n: its pretty trivial to add that extension, but it can only be for one format I think |
| 02:33:09 | saratoga | do you think it would make sense to enable it for Vorbis only? |
| 02:33:32 | iamben | does rockbox decide on a decoder based on extension? |
| 02:35:41 | safetydan | iamben, pretty much. Though there's some byte sniffing done for ogg streams to check for Vorbis/Speex/FLAC (maybe FLAC... not sure about that one) |
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| 02:38:25 | tihoc4n | I think it would make sense just to enable it for vorbis only, flac users normally use the .flac extension anyway. and Ghost isn't released yet. |
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| 02:39:12 | saratoga | tihoc4n: theres also speex |
| 02:39:20 | saratoga | do people actually use oga ? |
| 02:40:34 | * | Rondom has never seen a single oga-file |
| 02:40:44 | tihoc4n | I don't think anyone does, because there isn't much support for it yet. Anyway about speex according to that wiki page "Although they share the same MIME type, Vorbis and Speex use different file extensions." |
| 02:40:48 | saratoga | if its just something Xiph suggests but few people actually use, it might be a better idea to wait until we can actually demux the things Xiph says we should |
| 02:43:02 | Rondom | well, supporting oga as file extension with the things rockbox is already capable to handle is a step into the right direction, imo |
| 02:43:26 | | Quit petur ("Zzzzzz") |
| 02:43:36 | Rondom | I mean this could make more people start to use oga (I still doubt it, though) |
| 02:44:23 | saratoga | i don't have a problem with it, but get one of the europeans to say its ok and then I'll commit it |
| 02:45:28 | saratoga | or better yet, if you're a programmer, change line 73 of id3.c and submit a patch to the tracker |
| 02:45:46 | Llorean | Just as an added extension? |
| 02:46:15 | saratoga | yeah, just add oga to the list of vorbis extensions |
| 02:46:52 | Llorean | Does xiph.org specify what .oga gets to be? |
| 02:47:01 | saratoga | http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/MIME_Types_and_File_Extensions |
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| 02:47:16 | saratoga | yeah it can be any of their codecs but speex |
| 02:47:34 | Llorean | saratoga: Actually, it doesn't mention Vorbis there |
| 02:47:48 | Llorean | In fact it clearly states it's *not* for Vorbis |
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| 02:48:17 | saratoga | i'm not sure |
| 02:48:19 | saratoga | "using any of the Xiph audio codecs" |
| 02:49:01 | Llorean | Well look at the Rationale bit |
| 02:49:07 | saratoga | ask tihoc4n about it |
| 02:49:10 | Llorean | Though I'm not certain what "Vorbis-II" is relative to what we support |
| 02:49:15 | saratoga | hes apparently familar with this |
| 02:49:19 | Llorean | Do we support Vorbis I, Vorbis II, or both? |
| 02:49:25 | saratoga | just I |
| 02:49:29 | tihoc4n | Not that familiar, but I've come across it |
| 02:49:29 | saratoga | i don't think II exists yet |
| 02:49:46 | tihoc4n | Vorbis II doesn't exist, no |
| 02:49:49 | Llorean | Well, the page explicitly says it's to differentiate Vorbis I files (.ogg) from all other xiph audio files (.oga) |
| 02:49:55 | Llorean | See the RATIONALE bit |
| 02:49:59 | saratoga | i wonder why they want to do that |
| 02:50:13 | Febs | God, my tolerance for stupid lazy whiny demanding people is just about exhausted today. |
| 02:50:14 | Llorean | Vorbis I can only have one logical bitstream, according to that. |
| 02:50:28 | Llorean | Febs: More at ours, or elsewhere? I just got back from dinner and haven't refreshed yet. |
| 02:50:59 | Febs | Ours. Want to take a wild guess at the subject matter of the thread? I'll give a hint. It's in the plugins forum. |
| 02:51:02 | Llorean | saratoga: Either way, according to Xiph.org, we very definitely should not use .oga for Vorbis-I, should for flac, and *maybe* should for Speex if it falls under that "any of the Xiph audio codecs" umbrella |
| 02:51:15 | Llorean | Febs: Ah. Doom. |
| 02:51:21 | iamben | that page is kinda confusing |
| 02:51:26 | saratoga | ok that sounds reasonable |
| 02:51:36 | scorche | "ok thank you can you tell me if that subdirectory is a folder " |
| 02:51:38 | scorche | haha... |
| 02:52:10 | saratoga | reading the whole thing, it sounds like they want Vorbis to have its own file extension specifically to help out hardware players, so i guess we're doing it right :) |
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| 02:52:32 | Llorean | saratoga: Someone should tell xiph.org they need to write clearer standards. :-P |
| 02:52:41 | Febs | Yeah, what you guys can't see is the posted all in capital letters about "WHY IS NOBODY HELPING ME." |
| 02:53:01 | Febs | I can't respond any more, because my next response is to tell him that he needs to change his signature because it's wrong. |
| 02:53:15 | scorche | haha |
| 02:53:20 | Llorean | Febs: It was very, very hard for me to resist saying something similar. |
| 02:53:43 | Llorean | Such as "this should be considered basic computer knowledge and is something one should learn while becoming good on a computer" |
| 02:53:48 | scorche | oh, fine...i wil be the bad guiy and say what has to be said |
| 02:53:53 | saratoga | we should just word filter "DOOM" to "GET OUT NOW" |
| 02:54:23 | tihoc4n | About .oga, I see the flaws in that page now, We should wait for more definitive information from them. |
| 02:55:59 | iamben | seems to me like they want ogg speex as .spx, ogg vorbis (I) as .ogg, and all other ogg audio as .oga |
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| 02:56:28 | iamben | but their justifications for .spx & .ogg are "for compatibility with hardware players" |
| 02:56:28 | scorche | hrm...perhaps not...my version is a little ridiculing |
| 02:56:44 | Llorean | iamben: I think .oga will be allowed to include speex. It mentions .spx simply being preserved for compatibility. |
| 02:56:56 | | Quit aliask_uni ("CGI:IRC") |
| 02:57:00 | Llorean | But I'm a little uncertain about that |
| 02:57:32 | * | Llorean wonders how many hardware players besides those running Rockbox support Speex anyway. |
| 02:57:32 | iamben | same w/ vorbis really |
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| 02:58:01 | iamben | so .oga is ANY ogg audio, .ogg = vorbis only, .spx = speex only? |
| 02:58:15 | Llorean | iamben: Well it mentions excluding Vorbis-I from .oga, I think |
| 02:58:28 | iamben | its all very unclear =) |
| 02:58:31 | Llorean | Though it may mean "excluding everything else from .ogg", I'm not wholly sure |
| 03:00 |
| 03:01:08 | iamben | it says the same thing about .ogg = vorbis being kept for back-compatibility |
| 03:01:34 | iamben | im used to mplayer where i can name my files clownpenis.fart and it'll figure it out, whether its ogg vorbis or avi/xvid |
| 03:01:42 | ze | why can't stuff that cares just look in it and see whats there |
| 03:02:07 | ze | nobody tries to make avi files .avd or somejunk to indicate that its divx in thre |
| 03:02:32 | Llorean | ze: Yes, but how many audio-only avi files do you have? |
| 03:02:54 | Llorean | They're trying to set up a naming scheme for a more universal container, so that users can glance at a filename and have a reasonable idea what to accept |
| 03:03:00 | ze | why do filesystems have to still be operating on increasingly antiquated paradigms necessitating this silly old "file extension" concept thats getting broken all over the place now |
| 03:03:18 | Llorean | Or so that Rockbox can populate a playlist with *just* music files, and not 5000 oggs containing text and videos that need to be opened and rejected before the next song is buffered |
| 03:03:33 | ze | Llorean: generally i have a pretty good idea what to expect from the file Name |
| 03:03:40 | Llorean | ze: Any metadata can be wrong. What makes a file extension any better or worse than *any* value a human is allowed to edit? |
| 03:03:40 | ze | and yeah that last thing i guess is a problem |
| 03:04:07 | ze | but a problem with data access schemes that nobody's getting past :/ |
| 03:04:16 | ze | Llorean: ok, so? |
| 03:04:28 | Llorean | ze: Well, what *exactly* is your complaint against extensions? |
| 03:04:35 | Llorean | The file "bob" tells me a lot less than "bob.ogm" |
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| 03:05:02 | ze | that they're effectively a metadata field that's rather hacky and no longer adequete |
| 03:05:18 | ze | but persisting because there's nothing but filesystems still that don't provide for anything else |
| 03:05:37 | Llorean | How is it "inadequate"? |
| 03:05:43 | iamben | it blew my mind the first time i saw a file extension with more than 3 letters... "can they do that?" i thought |
| 03:06:07 | ze | Llorean: i thought ogg was handily demonstrating how, thus this discussion :p |
| 03:06:26 | Llorean | ze: I don't think extensions are inadequate. |
| 03:06:43 | Llorean | They provide an easy, user-visible way of tagging a file type through any interface that allows renaming the file, essentially |
| 03:06:53 | iamben | Llorean: i think at this point he is just expressing his disgust for the file extension trend in modern computing, not anything that can/should be handled differently in rb =) |
| 03:07:02 | Llorean | iamben: And I'm talking about in general to. |
| 03:07:11 | Llorean | What makes *any* sort of metadata more adequate than "a file extension"? |
| 03:07:34 | ze | well just look at the id3db style stuff on mp3 players |
| 03:07:37 | ze | including rockbox |
| 03:07:43 | ze | i kinda thought it was lame at first |
| 03:07:46 | ze | but after getting used to it |
| 03:07:55 | ze | i like having multiple ways of accessing data like that |
| 03:08:13 | ze | and things being innately capable of being tagged arbitrarily |
| 03:08:18 | ze | and accessed via such |
| 03:08:42 | Llorean | You're talking about a semantic filesystem |
| 03:08:47 | ze | and now it starts to look like directories, filenames, and file extensions are just kludgly little stop-gaps on the way to that |
| 03:08:51 | iamben | Llorean: one problem is that we tend to limit file extensions to 3 letters, rather than goodsong.oggvorbis and coolvid.oggtheora, we are stuck w/ .oga & .ogv |
| 03:08:57 | ze | Llorean: is that what its called? |
| 03:09:02 | Llorean | But even in such a case, there would be a "type" and it would describe what "type" of file it is, and it would be exactly the same concept as an extension. |
| 03:09:24 | Llorean | ze: It's what *I'd* call it, and a quick google provides that there's some people who agree with me. |
| 03:09:32 | ze | Llorean: it'd be silly to put such an arbitrary restriction on it as that |
| 03:09:36 | iamben | the fact that we have to cram many different filetypes into one extension is a problem |
| 03:09:44 | Llorean | ze: I'm not saying it would be a restriction. |
| 03:10:04 | ze | it could be an "av" type and "divx" type and "ogg" type all the same time |
| 03:10:13 | ze | and maybe thats not what you mean by "type" but does that matter? |
| 03:10:14 | Llorean | ze: I'm saying that there can assumed to be "a text string describing the file type" and that it will be analogous to "file extension" in what it describes, because it does serve a purpose |
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| 03:10:39 | Llorean | ze: Is there something that prevents you from naming a file blah.av.divx.ogg? |
| 03:10:53 | ze | just that nothing really understands that |
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| 03:10:58 | ze | except a human |
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| 03:11:07 | tihoc4n | tar.gz is a real world example :p |
| 03:11:14 | Llorean | tar.gz is a very good real world example |
| 03:11:15 | iamben | and the fact that you can't filter out those needless parts when you just wanna see "blah" |
| 03:11:16 | ze | tihoc4n: good call |
| 03:11:32 | Llorean | ze: Your complaint is that "file extensions are an outdated concept" |
| 03:11:40 | ze | Llorean: no |
| 03:11:41 | Llorean | My point is that they contain exactly as much information as we choose to give them. |
| 03:12:03 | ze | Llorean: not so much an oudated concept per se i guess |
| 03:12:12 | Llorean | ze: You called it an "antiquated paradigm" and described them as "inadequate" |
| 03:12:22 | ze | right |
| 03:12:27 | Llorean | My point is that they're merely metadata, just as any other metadata we could store in any other way would be. |
| 03:12:28 | iamben | but we can only fit so much info in them, and you can't sort it out |
| 03:12:32 | ze | in so far as the directory/filename/file-extension structure |
| 03:12:32 | Llorean | They are 1s and 0s on an HD. |
| 03:12:44 | Llorean | The problem then is not with what they are, but how programs choose to handle them |
| 03:12:58 | ze | i'm calling that structure an antiqueated and inadequate metadata system |
| 03:12:59 | ze | :p |
| 03:13:35 | safetydan | ze, it's a non-trivial problem to solve |
| 03:13:39 | * | safetydan points to the delays on WinFS |
| 03:13:45 | Llorean | ze: It may be, for human use. But it's also simple if you're actually aware of your own organizational structure, and efficient to access. |
| 03:13:46 | ze | indeed |
| 03:13:58 | Llorean | A semantic file system is much closer to how humans thing. |
| 03:14:09 | Llorean | "What was that green, round thing? Computer, get me all the green, round things I've got." |
| 03:14:16 | Llorean | think, not thing |
| 03:15:02 | ze | seems also nicer for programs not to have to traverse a hierarchy seeking something too |
| 03:15:13 | ze | but yeah |
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| 03:15:31 | saratoga | i don't see how you're going to avoid traversing a hieracrhy short of only having one file type |
| 03:15:38 | saratoga | sooner or later you have to make a decision |
| 03:15:49 | ze | er well |
| 03:15:49 | Llorean | ze: How on earth would you seek without traversing a hierarchy, without specific information in advance? And if you have that specific information, why do you need to traverse? |
| 03:16:03 | ze | um |
| 03:16:10 | Llorean | If you say "Find me all balls", somewhere a list of balls has to be kept |
| 03:16:25 | Llorean | Analogous to a folder named "balls", with either files, or links to files, in it. |
| 03:16:44 | ze | yeah |
| 03:17:05 | ze | and i could have a directory named balls that's full of symlinks to all the ball files on my system |
| 03:17:31 | ze | and a directory called heavy objects thats full of symlinks to all the heavy object files on the system |
| 03:17:41 | ze | which would have overlap, with heavy balls |
| 03:17:46 | Llorean | And something just checks for heavy balls by checking for files present in both, yes. |
| 03:17:49 | ze | and tons and tons of such directories |
| 03:17:51 | ze | and symlinks |
| 03:18:04 | Llorean | What do you think a symantic filesystem would look like under the hood? |
| 03:18:10 | Llorean | It'd be a database with attributes. |
| 03:18:13 | ze | and redundancy to make a filesystem into flexible a metadata type deal |
| 03:18:15 | ze | and a huge mess |
| 03:18:25 | Llorean | Someone has to label all balls as "balls", one way or another. |
| 03:19:14 | iamben | off this topic, but on topic, rockbox only handles vfat filesystems right? |
| 03:19:15 | ze | i could have all that or a db type deal instead |
| 03:19:20 | qwm | does rockbox support speex? |
| 03:19:25 | Llorean | iamben: Yes. |
| 03:19:36 | scorche | qwm! |
| 03:19:41 | qwm | scorche! |
| 03:19:41 | safetydan | qwm, yes but not stereo |
| 03:19:42 | Llorean | ze: Yes, but assuming properly written software, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference anyway |
| 03:19:48 | safetydan | stereo speex files that is |
| 03:19:54 | scorche | you speak! |
| 03:20:01 | qwm | safetydan: gonna use it for an audiobook, so i'm fine without stereo. heh |
| 03:20:05 | iamben | scorche: you mean he speex |
| 03:20:11 | ze | Llorean: *shrug* i'm not sure about that |
| 03:20:14 | * | scorche shudders |
| 03:20:27 | qwm | scorche: yeah, i came here to complain about how rockbox is not playing music as well on the nano as it used to. |
| 03:20:31 | ze | but i probably shouldn't be throwing the chan OT anymore |
| 03:20:38 | qwm | lots of glitches and speed variations since i upgraded. |
| 03:20:50 | scorche | qwm: i havent noticed any difference |
| 03:21:03 | Llorean | qwm: You probably have one of the mysteriously problematic Nanos |
| 03:21:15 | qwm | but why has it worked fine before! |
| 03:21:22 | Llorean | qwm: There seems to be a subset of Nanos (ie: those not owned by me or Scorche) that have IDE timing issues since some clock changes |
| 03:21:37 | qwm | how frustrating. |
| 03:21:49 | qwm | Llorean: wanna trade nanos? |
| 03:21:51 | qwm | :p |
| 03:22:00 | saratoga | qwm: don't update until someone figures out what the problem is |
| 03:22:07 | scorche | especially that none of the devs/helpers experience the issue |
| 03:22:10 | saratoga | or better yet, figure out what the problem is |
| 03:22:12 | qwm | that's too late now.. |
| 03:22:15 | Llorean | qwm: Check the bug tracker, there's a related task (mentions firmware 1.3.1, but this is wrong) |
| 03:22:26 | qwm | ah. |
| 03:22:35 | Llorean | qwm: If you want it fixed, convince amiconn to let you mail it to him. :-P |
| 03:22:56 | scorche | qwm: actually, i wouldnt mind trading nanos to fix this...but as he said, amiconn is the person to go to |
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| 03:23:10 | qwm | hehe |
| 03:23:54 | qwm | where can i find old builds? |
| 03:24:10 | scorche | check them out from avn and build |
| 03:24:17 | scorche | although there are other ways... |
| 03:24:36 | krazykit | like the archived daily builds |
| 03:24:47 | scorche | http://www.rockbox.org/dl.cgi?bin=ipodnano |
| 03:25:04 | scorche | if you want older than that, you will ahve to go to svn |
| 03:25:08 | qwm | thanks. |
| 03:25:48 | saratoga | anyone know how i seek in the gigabeat sim? |
| 03:25:50 | qwm | i'll give the oldest one there a shot. |
| 03:26:22 | saratoga | qwm: I think someone said the cutoff for the nano issue was around the 26th of last month |
| 03:26:41 | qwm | ah, cool. |
| 03:26:50 | qwm | found the first build i ever tried on my machine: rockbox-ipodnano-20060519.zip |
| 03:26:51 | qwm | hehe |
| 03:28:15 | saratoga | actually, does anyone know how to seek in any of the sims? |
| 03:28:27 | saratoga | i don't really care what the target is, so long as it can run wma |
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| 03:30:28 | krazykit | saratoga, i thought you just held "right" on the keyboard, but that may be wrong |
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| 03:32:58 | saratoga | thanks, didn't realize it needed to be held |
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| 03:39:13 | qwm | saratoga: tried the july 24th build, seems to be working fine, thanks. :) |
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| 04:50:12 | * | Llorean is somewhat irritated at all the blind users' protestations regarding the voice change. |
| 04:50:24 | Llorean | I mean, I understand being upset by it, but they seem awfully demanding all of a sudden. |
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| 04:55:48 | * | jhMikeS finds it irritating as well and a poor descision when a much simpler design could be done and save even more memory...but oh well, I guess it's entrenched now. :\ |
| 04:56:34 | Llorean | jhMikeS: Simpler design? |
| 04:56:55 | Llorean | I don't think anyone would really object to more improvements. |
| 04:57:22 | jhMikeS | yes. I talked about it with Bagder. No target-specific voice files which I think are going to be a major headache. |
| 04:57:32 | Llorean | Why? |
| 04:57:58 | Llorean | After my first generation of the voice files, it takes me less than 2 minutes to generate them for 5 targets. |
| 04:58:16 | jhMikeS | you either have to make them or wait for them instead of just having one voice/lang file you load the wanted bits from. |
| 04:58:16 | Llorean | And that was, "after my first generation of one voice file", now that the pool is seeded for all of them, it's probably even quicker. |
| 04:58:33 | Llorean | jhMikeS: How do you handle the "voice file is way too big for Archoses" issue then? |
| 04:58:48 | Llorean | Just keep the big file, and only store the appropriate bits in RAM? |
| 04:58:49 | jhMikeS | seems like more trouble than what writing just a few lines of code could make unnescessary |
| 04:59:56 | jhMikeS | only load what's used and there would be no usused index entries nor order dependence and strings could be deleted arbitrarily when no longer needed by using ids that never change |
| 05:00 |
| 05:00:22 | smoo__ | Hi, this might be a really retarded question but how does one go about getting the firmware for something like an Xclef MT-500 so that I can reverse it? Is hardware used to take it from the eprom? Or is it just a matter of unpacking a firmware update? |
| 05:01:38 | | Quit weoh (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 05:01:55 | Llorean | jhMikeS: Seems pretty reasonable, though with the amount of space I have free on my flash players, I'd really prefer "slightly more complicated to make, but smaller" considering that it can be automated. |
| 05:02:17 | jhMikeS | when adding a new string: id = next_id, next_id = id + 1. id will never be used for another string again. |
| 05:04:42 | jhMikeS | A compromise solution could be to still use the ids in order to save more array space. I think archos still has some 300 NULL entries in the table. |
| 05:06:47 | jhMikeS | heck it could even load a master or stripped-down voice file the same way, leaving it up to the user |
| 05:07:09 | Llorean | That would be a good compromise. |
| 05:07:38 | Llorean | Wouldn't that result in a lot of ifdeffing in the code for different talk ids though? |
| 05:07:49 | jhMikeS | none |
| 05:09:35 | Llorean | Do current voice files *have* to be target specific? I don't know how it worked, but I assumed the voiced bit was determined by the language string loaded. |
| 05:09:36 | jhMikeS | each table entry would be char * str[index] = { "string",... }. parallel to str: short[index] = { ID }. strings would be sorted by ID. |
| 05:10:02 | * | Llorean doesn't have any clue how it works, clearly |
| 05:10:19 | jhMikeS | My understanding is that they do. |
| 05:10:34 | Llorean | Then could a voice file containing all strings work for all targets (that can load it)? |
| 05:10:42 | | Quit miepchen^schlaf (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 05:10:57 | jhMikeS | in SVN or my idea? |
| 05:11:02 | Llorean | In SVN. |
| 05:11:03 | | Join miepchen^schlaf [0] (n=hihi@p54BF6D99.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 05:11:13 | Llorean | Since my understanding is your idea is supposed to explicitly allow that. |
| 05:12:47 | jhMikeS | My understanding is no, but I don't see why there'd be gaps in the table then. |
| 05:13:54 | jhMikeS | they seem to be gone so I guess that forces them as target-specific |
| 05:14:06 | Llorean | Gotcha |
| 05:14:34 | jhMikeS | don't know why Bagder implied the NULLs were still there or I misunderstood something |
| 05:15:24 | Llorean | Maybe he meant they were there during the generation, but didn't end up in the final file? |
| 05:16:00 | jhMikeS | no idea now...hehe |
| 05:17:01 | Llorean | Heh |
| 05:18:34 | Llorean | Is there some special difficulty that prevents someone from updating the windows script for the new voice format, or is it merely a case of "nobody's around to do it"? |
| 05:18:34 | | Part maffe |
| 05:18:41 | | Join maffe [0] (n=maffe@barmen.interhost.no) |
| 05:18:43 | * | jhMikeS too preoccupied with the cache problem that gives the C0EDBABEs to try to tackle that problem too |
| 05:18:48 | Llorean | Hahaha |
| 05:19:47 | Llorean | Interestingly enough, C0EDBABE doesn't show up in Wikipedia's article on magic numbers |
| 05:20:06 | Llorean | Though there's a C0DEDBAD, which I rather like. |
| 05:20:13 | jhMikeS | nor does 0xba90f5417 or 0xcacad0d0 |
| 05:20:58 | * | jhMikeS forgot the BOS majic number :( |
| 05:21:29 | Llorean | jhMikeS: Did you write the SPC patch to use the COP? |
| 05:21:33 | jhMikeS | yes |
| 05:21:43 | Llorean | Is that the plan for other codecs too, just leave it entirely up to them how to use the COP? |
| 05:23:00 | jhMikeS | I think they should be able to determine how they make threads even if normally on COP. I'm still waiting for PP5020 test for the better dual-core kernel patch I just made. |
| 05:24:44 | Llorean | And what's this about a new dual-core kernel? |
| 05:24:55 | jhMikeS | It's far better than the whole core lock thing since the processors remain almost completely independent. |
| 05:25:01 | Llorean | Oooh |
| 05:25:26 | Llorean | Is it functioning so far on any targets? |
| 05:25:30 | jhMikeS | I can send messages core-to-core just fine with my test plugin. Locking is very localized for specific purposes. |
| 05:25:44 | jhMikeS | e200, 5g it's been checked |
| 05:26:05 | Llorean | Well, that covers what I can offer testing on. |
| 05:26:14 | Llorean | Well, Nano, but that ought to be covered by 5G. |
| 05:27:06 | jhMikeS | There was a problem using backlight fading after using mpegplayer on 5g but I'm not sure it's the patch. There's yet another place that needs a cache flush there. |
| 05:27:46 | Llorean | The backlight always seems to be problematic in one place or another. |
| 05:28:37 | jhMikeS | I don't think I'd not commit for that since turning off fading had no problems after mpegplayer. |
| 05:29:39 | Llorean | Just claim it's a bug with backlight code and beyond the scope of the patch. :-P |
| 05:31:02 | jhMikeS | I believe it's just a cache issue or that call to mpeg2_close on the main thread without an invalidate first messing things up. |
| 05:31:11 | Llorean | Ah |
| 05:37:01 | | Join scorche [0] (i=Blah@rockbox/administrator/scorche) |
| 05:37:51 | jhMikeS | the patch is basically a non-change from how things are now. the way threads are woken by IRQs is just generalized to doing it accross cores. it does make mutexes recursive and adds semaphores and events. the last two are used to make codec swaps perfectly atomic. |
| 05:40:04 | jhMikeS | events might come in handy for the USB driver as well |
| 05:42:14 | Llorean | So it's just PP5020 testing that's really holding it back? |
| 05:46:07 | jhMikeS | pp5020 testing is holding a bunch of stuff back |
| 05:47:07 | jhMikeS | weren't H10's around for < $90? |
| 05:47:12 | Llorean | Yeah |
| 05:47:33 | Soul-Slayer | I have an H10 if you need me to do anything? |
| 05:47:46 | alienbiker99 | i can test h10 |
| 05:47:56 | jhMikeS | Sould-Slayer: if you could test a patch...like you up? |
| 05:48:25 | Soul-Slayer | Sure could. Give me a moment to reboot and I shall |
| 05:48:33 | | Quit Soul-Slayer (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 05:49:42 | jhMikeS | practically everything I looked at on ebay went for like $120 |
| 05:50:05 | alienbiker99 | they were on a wootoff a while ago for like $25 or less i think |
| 05:50:08 | Llorean | I think they were $90 on Woot, which then ends up with a bunch of them being resold for 120 on ebay |
| 05:50:23 | alienbiker99 | oh were they really 90? |
| 05:50:26 | jhMikeS | heh |
| 05:50:30 | Llorean | Well, they've been on Woot a few times |
| 05:51:00 | | Join Soul-Slayer [0] (n=jonno@89.240.234.25) |
| 05:51:25 | Soul-Slayer | Returned. |
| 05:52:16 | jhMikeS | http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/viewfile/Main/MichaelSevakis?rev=1;filename=dual-core-compat.diff |
| 05:52:48 | Soul-Slayer | Just put it through general use? |
| 05:53:10 | jhMikeS | 1) Should boot 2) should play, even with voice 3) mpegplayer if possible ... mostly I'm concerned about the core of course not minor post-mpegplayer glitches |
| 05:53:36 | jhMikeS | It will need a full update of everything |
| 05:54:09 | Soul-Slayer | Bootloader too? |
| 05:54:14 | jhMikeS | oh, no |
| 05:54:24 | Llorean | jhMikeS: Are codecs put one the second core, or is that outside the scope of this? |
| 05:54:29 | Soul-Slayer | Am making from scratch so should be fine. |
| 05:55:05 | jhMikeS | Llorean: this only enables that to be done. one step at a time :) |
| 05:55:42 | jhMikeS | Soul-Slayer: thanks for the tests |
| 05:55:59 | Llorean | jhMikeS: I assumed that would be the case, but I wasn't sure what you mean by "should play, even with voice" |
| 05:56:28 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 05:57:01 | jhMikeS | it uses new kernel objects for the syncronizing of swapping but I've had no problems and they've never panicf'ed (there's code enabled to check them right now). |
| 05:57:07 | Llorean | Ah |
| 05:58:47 | | Quit scorche (Connection reset by peer) |
| 05:58:55 | | Join scorche` [0] (i=Blah@rockbox/administrator/scorche) |
| 05:59:27 | jhMikeS | mutexes being recursive is incompatible with SVN playback.c use |
| 06:00 |
| 06:01:42 | Soul-Slayer | Right lets see. |
| 06:01:46 | jhMikeS | the 5020 tests are the most harrowing |
| 06:01:47 | Soul-Slayer | Booted fine |
| 06:02:01 | jhMikeS | score 1? |
| 06:02:28 | Llorean | Hmmm |
| 06:02:37 | Soul-Slayer | However, trying to open a file I'm just getting 'Loading...' |
| 06:02:50 | Soul-Slayer | Disk is spinning but no clicking sound |
| 06:02:58 | Llorean | jhMikeS: In theory is there any way your changes could cause the wrong voice clips to playback, or should I assume this voicefile is broken, and simply check for that later? |
| 06:03:09 | * | Llorean would like to assume the voice file is simply bad |
| 06:03:24 | * | Soul-Slayer reboots and tries again |
| 06:03:28 | jhMikeS | Llorean: I've checked with a new voice file and had no difficulties |
| 06:03:36 | Llorean | Alright |
| 06:03:43 | Llorean | I'll assume my ipod-nano specific voice aint quite right |
| 06:04:13 | jhMikeS | though a voice-free check should be done |
| 06:04:20 | Llorean | voice-free check? |
| 06:04:35 | jhMikeS | voice off and then no voice file at all just to compare |
| 06:04:56 | Llorean | What am I comparing in that situation? |
| 06:05:15 | jhMikeS | voice off = no codec swap. no voice file = no codec loaded at all |
| 06:05:39 | smoo__ | window 5 |
| 06:05:45 | smoo__ | oops sorry |
| 06:05:59 | Soul-Slayer | jhMikeS: Playback seems to fail. I've tried three times, twice it freezes up on the 'Loading...' splash, once it played, I paused it and it refused to resume. |
| 06:06:01 | Llorean | What I'm saying is happening is that when I highlight the top line in the system menu, it says "Warn when deleting dynamic playlist" |
| 06:06:36 | jhMikeS | Soul-Slayer: voice present or not? |
| 06:06:40 | Soul-Slayer | Not |
| 06:06:59 | jhMikeS | eek |
| 06:07:27 | Soul-Slayer | My settings are reset to default by the way. |
| 06:07:28 | jhMikeS | Llorean: sounds like a wrong clip |
| 06:07:45 | Llorean | Yeah, there's something wrong with the voice file |
| 06:07:54 | Llorean | :( |
| 06:07:55 | Soul-Slayer | Hmmmm |
| 06:08:03 | Soul-Slayer | Now it's playing the song, 5th attempt |
| 06:08:09 | Soul-Slayer | I'll see if skipping and so on works |
| 06:08:10 | jhMikeS | Soul-Slayer: so there's no voice file at all |
| 06:08:16 | Soul-Slayer | Not a trace |
| 06:08:30 | Soul-Slayer | Right, IF I can play a song, it functions as expected |
| 06:08:44 | Soul-Slayer | But it seems to freeze up on the 'Loading...' splash most of the time |
| 06:09:10 | Soul-Slayer | Although, now it's letting me choose songs freely.. |
| 06:09:24 | jhMikeS | playback.c is so loaded with timing issues that the problem probably isn't the patch itself |
| 06:10:12 | Soul-Slayer | Well, the player is now responding as expected... |
| 06:10:20 | Soul-Slayer | Until I restart it I presume |
| 06:10:21 | jhMikeS | well, this is farther than any dual core patch has ever gotten |
| 06:10:47 | Soul-Slayer | Right, it just randomly froze up on me |
| 06:11:10 | jhMikeS | after restart? |
| 06:11:20 | | Quit scorche` (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 06:11:22 | Soul-Slayer | Just during playback |
| 06:12:06 | | Join scorche [0] (i=Blah@rockbox/administrator/scorche) |
| 06:12:17 | Soul-Slayer | Restarted, playback is working again |
| 06:15:58 | Llorean | Bagder: There seems to be something wrong with at least the Nano-specific voice file, several clips are wrong |
| 06:16:38 | Soul-Slayer | jhMikeS: Hasn't crashed yet... But this is the 6th time I've restarted it |
| 06:17:17 | jhMikeS | Soul-Slayer: well, that actually holds alot of promise. were you able to try mpegplayer? |
| 06:17:47 | Soul-Slayer | What would I be looking for? |
| 06:17:52 | Soul-Slayer | Whether it actually works? |
| 06:17:55 | jhMikeS | yes |
| 06:18:16 | Soul-Slayer | Let me find a test file, bear with me :p |
| 06:18:39 | jhMikeS | all the experience ever was before was "freezes at boot screen" |
| 06:18:57 | Soul-Slayer | It definitely boots okay :p |
| 06:19:14 | scorche | hrm...my copy of the site that i was working on is gone... |
| 06:19:30 | * | scorche sends off a mail to redbreva |
| 06:20:36 | Soul-Slayer | Just downloading Elephants Dream... 5 mins or so and I'll be with you. |
| 06:20:44 | Soul-Slayer | Do the other targets you tested on crash? |
| 06:24:30 | jhMikeS | Soul-Slayer: there was a backlight glitch after mpegplayer on 5g. e200 has no problems at all. |
| 06:25:24 | jhMikeS | the backlight glitch was only when fading was enabled |
| 06:26:24 | Soul-Slayer | jhMikeS: Just about to test mpegplayer |
| 06:27:03 | Soul-Slayer | Plays fine |
| 06:27:04 | * | jhMikeS puts claw marks in the armrests |
| 06:27:28 | jhMikeS | let it go a couple for a bit |
| 06:27:29 | Soul-Slayer | Opens the file fine, quits fine, backlight seems fine afterwards |
| 06:27:35 | Soul-Slayer | Ok |
| 06:28:00 | jhMikeS | the best test before was "plays a few seconds then crashes" |
| 06:28:30 | Soul-Slayer | I wish this movie made sense... :p |
| 06:29:11 | | Join chrisjs169_ [0] (n=chrisjs@pool-71-254-214-208.hrbgpa.east.verizon.net) |
| 06:29:30 | jhMikeS | it's about new ideas vs. old, entrenched ones I think |
| 06:30:19 | Soul-Slayer | Shall have to get the proper version some time that isn't on a 128x128 screen and work it all out :p. But the fact remains it's still playing 3 mins or so later... |
| 06:31:30 | jhMikeS | I think I'll have to chalk the playback stuff up to timing changes introduced. mpegplayer is quite atomic thread wise. |
| 06:32:24 | Llorean | Soul-Slayer: But playback is consistently playing now, or do you still have to try a bunch of times like you did right after starting the build? |
| 06:32:46 | Soul-Slayer | Llorean: Let me see, still in the video at the moment. No crash yet though. |
| 06:32:50 | * | Soul-Slayer quits |
| 06:33:04 | Soul-Slayer | Playback froze it. |
| 06:33:12 | Soul-Slayer | Stuck on the loading splash again |
| 06:33:14 | Llorean | Unfortunate. |
| 06:34:03 | Soul-Slayer | Restarted and worked on playback first time |
| 06:34:19 | Llorean | Can you play a movie, stop, then play another movie? |
| 06:34:20 | jhMikeS | Llorean: not as much as before actually ... it's localized and perhaps traceable |
| 06:34:41 | | Quit toffe82 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 06:34:44 | Soul-Slayer | Currently playing a song, shall go straight into mpegplayer, try playing another song, then mpeg again. |
| 06:34:46 | * | jhMikeS also wonders about frequency scaling |
| 06:35:11 | Soul-Slayer | Hmmm |
| 06:35:13 | Llorean | What about frequency scaling? |
| 06:35:24 | Soul-Slayer | Playback -> Mpeg = Data abort at 0006C092 |
| 06:35:28 | Soul-Slayer | But the sound is still playing |
| 06:35:36 | Soul-Slayer | (Sound of the video, not playback) |
| 06:35:53 | jhMikeS | that one's a rather unrelated caching difficulty |
| 06:36:02 | Soul-Slayer | Ok |
| 06:36:20 | Soul-Slayer | Restarted, again, playback was fine |
| 06:36:20 | jhMikeS | happens in SVN but usually at C0EDBABE |
| 06:36:32 | Soul-Slayer | Seems aslong as I'm quick going into playback it will work |
| 06:36:53 | Soul-Slayer | Playback -> Mpeg worked this time |
| 06:36:54 | jhMikeS | try setting some extra boost counts in the debug menu and try |
| 06:37:10 | Soul-Slayer | Try what? |
| 06:37:19 | Llorean | Soul-Slayer: out of curiosity, can you feel the disk spin down/up fairly well? |
| 06:37:34 | Soul-Slayer | I can't feel, but I can put my ear to it and hear it |
| 06:37:55 | Soul-Slayer | Makes quite an audible high pitch when spinning, and clicks when accessing |
| 06:37:59 | Soul-Slayer | And it just froze on me |
| 06:38:27 | Llorean | I was just wondering if the point where music won't start might align with the point where the disk spins down. |
| 06:39:04 | Soul-Slayer | Llorean: When accessing a song, I'll hear the disk spin up, the splash stays on 'Loading' and the disk continues spinning until I remove the battery |
| 06:39:22 | Soul-Slayer | jhMikeS: What boost count shall I try and what do you want me to try? Playback? |
| 06:39:50 | jhMikeS | Soul-Slayer: just add a whole bunch so it can't unboost |
| 06:39:59 | jhMikeS | and yeah, playback |
| 06:40:02 | Llorean | Soul-Slayer: I meant, during boot the disk spins. Then it spins down shortly after. I was curious if the freeze happens if you let it get to that spindown, or if it's unrelated. |
| 06:40:26 | jhMikeS | could increase the spindown time so it can't for awhile |
| 06:40:30 | Soul-Slayer | Llorean: Ooh, understood, I'll check momentarily |
| 06:40:37 | Soul-Slayer | Trying playback boosted now |
| 06:40:59 | Llorean | jhMikeS: It seems unlikely that it's related to spindown, but I'm a curious person. |
| 06:41:08 | Soul-Slayer | I'll wait for disk spindown and do something else |
| 06:41:31 | jhMikeS | Llorean: me too but the craziest things can be related sometimes. |
| 06:41:36 | Llorean | Yup |
| 06:41:52 | Llorean | Or at least provide random clues |
| 06:42:07 | * | Llorean still wants to know what makes the crashing Nanos different. |
| 06:42:16 | Soul-Slayer | Skipping tracks is working ... But like I said, the freeze was very intermittent before, I am not sure how to provoke it |
| 06:43:39 | jhMikeS | Llorean: you ran the patch I take it? you just had a bum voice file? |
| 06:44:02 | Llorean | jhMikeS: Yeah, just a bum voice file |
| 06:44:10 | Llorean | I'm listening to music on a patched Nano right now. |
| 06:44:27 | * | jhMikeS wonders why sansa is such a stable pp target compared to others |
| 06:44:31 | Llorean | I built the voice under the same conditions, even using pooled mp3s, for my Gigabeat and the voice file was good. |
| 06:44:43 | Soul-Slayer | jhMikeS: Does sansa support frequency scaling? |
| 06:44:44 | Llorean | The Nano's been darn stable until the 80mhz change. |
| 06:45:25 | jhMikeS | Soul-Slayer: yes, but it was never a problem for it except for the FIFO refills during cache flushes causing click when not boosted |
| 06:45:39 | Soul-Slayer | Hmm |
| 06:45:46 | | Quit chrisjs169__ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 06:45:50 | Soul-Slayer | Well now I've got my H10 boosted it doesn't appear to be crashing |
| 06:46:05 | Soul-Slayer | I'll restart, boost it and see if it crashes, and try it a few times |
| 06:46:06 | * | jhMikeS sees amiconn has more work to do :) |
| 06:46:24 | perrikwp | hello |
| 06:47:03 | Soul-Slayer | 2nd attempt, boosted it up, went into a song, no problems... Rebooting again and trying |
| 06:47:04 | perrikwp | i was following the current conversation and decide to help test the dualcore patch |
| 06:47:14 | Llorean | jhMikeS: It's in theory an IDE timing issue, and may affect iPod Videos as well |
| 06:47:26 | | Join chrisjs169__ [0] (n=chrisjs@pool-71-254-214-208.hrbgpa.east.verizon.net) |
| 06:47:29 | perrikwp | i have a ipod mini 1gen by the way |
| 06:47:34 | jhMikeS | Llorean: lots of things in RB are not mutexed btw |
| 06:47:49 | Soul-Slayer | jhMikeS: Really seems to be boost related then... 3rd attempt no problem... |
| 06:47:52 | jhMikeS | perrikwp: the more the merrier. did you see the link? |
| 06:48:24 | Llorean | jhMikeS: Was that a "we need more mutexes"? |
| 06:48:29 | perrikwp | i already compiled the build and audio playback works perfect |
| 06:48:38 | jhMikeS | Llorean: quite a few more |
| 06:48:44 | Llorean | Heh |
| 06:48:45 | Soul-Slayer | 4th no problem... I think we can rest assured it's related to the boosting |
| 06:49:04 | jhMikeS | perrikwp: cool. thanks for checking it. |
| 06:49:28 | Soul-Slayer | Yep... 5th... Now I'll try again without the boosting |
| 06:50:09 | Soul-Slayer | I'll test the spindown theory too |
| 06:50:19 | perrikwp | there is a problem with mpegplayer though, but i don't know if it matters because it is a grayscale target |
| 06:50:31 | perrikwp | there is audio but no video |
| 06:50:42 | Soul-Slayer | Llorean: Good assumption. I allowed the disk to stop spinning, and yep, it's crashed. |
| 06:50:55 | jhMikeS | perrikwp: hmmm...might be graylib related |
| 06:51:00 | perrikwp | ok |
| 06:51:01 | Soul-Slayer | Does it unboost once it spins down the disk or something? |
| 06:51:41 | jhMikeS | Soul-Slayer: it will be unboosted, then playback will boost and spin the disk pretty much at once |
| 06:52:17 | Soul-Slayer | Well, I just allowed it to spin down, then put up the boost_counter and tried playback, worked first time |
| 06:52:24 | | Quit safetydan ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)") |
| 06:52:40 | jhMikeS | so they combine in an evil conspiracy ... hrm |
| 06:53:14 | Soul-Slayer | If I don't boost it before trying to open a file, it freezes |
| 06:53:21 | Soul-Slayer | Unless the disk hasn't spun down yet |
| 06:53:28 | jhMikeS | but only if the disk stops spinning, right? |
| 06:53:32 | jhMikeS | heh |
| 06:54:45 | jhMikeS | yeah, with sansa, none of that is an issue of course |
| 06:54:55 | Soul-Slayer | Yeah, no disk to spin up :P |
| 06:55:23 | | Quit chrisjs169_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 06:55:42 | Llorean | Do we attempt disk power down on the H10s? |
| 06:56:35 | jhMikeS | I don't know but something in my some obscure memory says there were issues with ATA and scaling there |
| 06:56:50 | jhMikeS | amiconn should know for sure |
| 06:56:51 | Soul-Slayer | You aren't kidding :p |
| 06:58:20 | Soul-Slayer | jhMikeS: A backlight issue seems pretty random... |
| 06:58:37 | jhMikeS | Soul-Slayer: you're having one? |
| 06:58:50 | Soul-Slayer | jhMikeS: No no, I was just thinking over the problems |
| 06:58:59 | jhMikeS | ok |
| 06:59:00 | Soul-Slayer | I can't see how the backlight got involved |
| 06:59:59 | jhMikeS | it shouldn't with nothing changing. the only difference really is that every kernel object has a core lock on every instance. |
| 07:00 |
| 07:01:21 | | Join chrisjs169_ [0] (n=chrisjs@pool-71-254-214-208.hrbgpa.east.verizon.net) |
| 07:01:58 | | Join toffe82 [0] (n=chatzill@65.198.26.227) |
| 07:02:42 | Soul-Slayer | Anyhow, I must sleep. Good job jhMikeS :P Hopefully amiconn will have all the answers ;) |
| 07:04:08 | jhMikeS | Soul-Slayer: thanks and goodnight :) |
| 07:04:37 | | Quit Soul-Slayer ("Leaving.") |
| 07:05:52 | Llorean | This patch gonna affect PP5002 targets? |
| 07:07:44 | jhMikeS | Llorean: they don't have dual core enabled at all yet so it'll just have the new kernel objects |
| 07:09:21 | jhMikeS | I don't expect any green deltas from this one either :P |
| 07:09:39 | Llorean | Hahaha |
| 07:10:08 | Llorean | Man, I'm so glad I don't have an iPod Video. I just realized I'm listening at -66 |
| 07:10:34 | jhMikeS | what's with the Video? |
| 07:10:44 | Llorean | Only goes to -54 if I recall. |
| 07:10:54 | Llorean | I think it has the least range of our targets. |
| 07:12:06 | jhMikeS | sansa once had that beat |
| 07:13:08 | jhMikeS | must be quiet over there though |
| 07:13:16 | Llorean | Oh, yeah. |
| 07:13:20 | Llorean | I'm wearing open phones. |
| 07:16:24 | | Join Dylan_ [0] (n=chatzill@CPE-124-186-195-67.qld.bigpond.net.au) |
| 07:16:34 | | Nick Dylan_ is now known as Adikdid (n=chatzill@CPE-124-186-195-67.qld.bigpond.net.au) |
| 07:16:43 | Adikdid | Hello, all |
| 07:16:53 | Adikdid | can someone please help me to oput rockbox on my iPod? |
| 07:17:09 | scorche | what problem are you encountering? |
| 07:17:20 | Adikdid | how to put it on my iPod |
| 07:17:27 | scorche | have you checked the manual? |
| 07:17:30 | Adikdid | i have downloaded it to desktop, now what do i do? |
| 07:17:39 | scorche | read the manual |
| 07:17:57 | Adikdid | u have read the rockbox.info and it just says |
| 07:18:10 | scorche | did i say to read rockbox.info? |
| 07:19:16 | | Part Adikdid |
| 07:21:28 | jhMikeS | Llorean: after this there's a pcm rework that cleans up the whole API and puts a start to make it play from whatever core initiates it. that's needed so COP codecs and CPU plugins can both use it efficiently. |
| 07:22:37 | * | Llorean wonders once more why an embedded device was designed dual-core like this. |
| 07:22:39 | jhMikeS | of course pp5020 is holding that up from just going in SVN now |
| 07:23:46 | jhMikeS | same sort of freeze issues but the tester wasn't as willing to follow through thoroughly so I never really narrowed it down |
| 07:24:43 | jhMikeS | two really cheap cores instead of one expensive 200MHz one? |
| 07:27:01 | Llorean | But wouldn't that then lead to like... the arm/dsp setups instead? |
| 07:27:05 | * | jhMikeS wonders when the day will come when there's 4,8 or 16 cores in a device ... probably not far off |
| 07:27:08 | Llorean | Something less symmetrical. |
| 07:27:38 | | Quit chrisjs169__ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 07:27:48 | jhMikeS | I think those exist already ... isn't the TMS320 one of those? |
| 07:27:53 | Llorean | Yeah |
| 07:28:00 | Llorean | Those make more sense to me. |
| 07:28:12 | Llorean | One core for the UI, and another core more or less designed for the A/V jobs. |
| 07:28:27 | jhMikeS | coldfire with an emac unit beats the pants off 160MHz of ARM7 |
| 07:28:47 | Llorean | Hehehe |
| 07:29:29 | Llorean | And then you've got the ridiculous Gigabeat. |
| 07:29:38 | | Join Adikdid [0] (n=chatzill@CPE-124-186-195-67.qld.bigpond.net.au) |
| 07:30:16 | Llorean | Unfortunately I doubt I'll ever meet someone who actually knows why any of those interesting decisions was made |
| 07:30:19 | jhMikeS | yeah, and one core that plays video |
| 07:31:03 | * | jhMikeS puts his money on the bean counters |
| 07:31:06 | Llorean | jhMikeS: So, there's a patch in existence for the playback cleanup too, or is that more of a plan? |
| 07:32:03 | jhMikeS | The MoB work to get buffering separated. It would be nice for that to be done and then getting playback.c in order would be much easier. |
| 07:32:28 | Llorean | Yeah, I haven't seen Nico_P since I got back. |
| 07:32:59 | * | scorche wonders why the GSoC students seem to disappear |
| 07:33:01 | Llorean | Everything looked like it was progressing, though. I just don't know if there's 'recent' work |
| 07:33:30 | jhMikeS | I think there's a want for a free lunch in that. there is none. that sort of buffer is complex and any design decision just has conseques in the logic. |
| 07:33:48 | | Quit Adikdid (Client Quit) |
| 07:34:01 | amiconn | One "weak" cpu core + dsp isn't such an uncommon design |
| 07:34:23 | Llorean | amiconn: That's what I was saying though, I'm curious why the choice of identical cores rather than that. |
| 07:34:25 | jhMikeS | archos is the primest example |
| 07:34:27 | amiconn | TMS320 is just one example (arm+dsp) |
| 07:34:54 | jhMikeS | coldfire even |
| 07:34:55 | Llorean | I'm curious if Apple had a plan for the dual cores, or if they make use of them in some interesting way under the hood or anything. |
| 07:35:17 | amiconn | There's also TCC720 (calmrisc16 + calmmac24) (the failed Gmini port attempt) |
| 07:35:31 | jhMikeS | I think Toshiba had to have more plans for the Gigabeat and just bailed out to get it to market. It's way overkill for the audio only. |
| 07:35:31 | amiconn | ..and the ATJ2085 as an extreme example |
| 07:36:04 | scorche | jhMikeS: the 2nd gen nano is pretty beefy as well |
| 07:36:26 | | Quit toffe82 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 07:36:39 | amiconn | The archos is somewhat different, as the 2 cores are two separate chips |
| 07:36:49 | jhMikeS | amiconn: did you follow any of that patch testing on H10? no problems unless the disk spins down while not boosted. |
| 07:37:03 | * | amiconn just got up |
| 07:37:16 | scorche | as well, i dont think the OF on those nanos even does video |
| 07:37:30 | jhMikeS | what's so beefy about the 2nd gen nano? |
| 07:38:34 | Llorean | I thought the second gen was supposed to be a little slower than the 1st. But I'll admit I haven't researched. |
| 07:39:41 | scorche | i think it is a 200 MHz ish arm 9 |
| 07:39:48 | jhMikeS | PortalPlayer OF takes a big hit in responsiveness when music is playing. It's kinda odd given it has two cores. |
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| 07:41:27 | amiconn | jhMikeS: So the crash Soul-Slayer was observing was with your patch? |
| 07:41:30 | Llorean | jhMikeS: Which player? |
| 07:42:00 | jhMikeS | amiconn: H10, but in just the specific way I mentioned. otherwise no problems booting or running mpegplayer. |
| 07:42:10 | amiconn | If it works boosted but not unboosted, it's certainly not ATA timing |
| 07:42:26 | jhMikeS | Llorean: I've seen it on iPod video and e200 |
| 07:42:48 | | Join Adikdid [0] (i=7cbac343@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-d3aea436828fc55d) |
| 07:42:58 | jhMikeS | It worked unboosted as long as the disk didn't need to spin when starting playback |
| 07:44:12 | Adikdid | OK i installed rockbox but it says it has a red error, it says IPOD: File Is Missing |
| 07:44:20 | | Quit ctaylorr (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 07:44:39 | jhMikeS | the only real difference from SVN is a test_and_set guarding the kernel objects |
| 07:45:08 | Adikdid | can soneone please help me? |
| 07:45:43 | scorche | yeah... 200MHz ARM949T and if i am reading this right, it has 256MB of SDRAM |
| 07:46:05 | scorche | sorry...($)T |
| 07:46:08 | scorche | bah |
| 07:46:13 | scorche | ARM940T |
| 07:46:23 | amiconn | scorche: It's probably the same mistake the ipl people made with some other target |
| 07:46:49 | scorche | http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:87gJLy35ZksJ:home.gna.org/linux4nano/download/hardware_synth-1.0.pdf+samsung+arm9+nano+ipod&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=16&gl=us&client=firefox-a#8 |
| 07:46:50 | amiconn | The RAM is very likely 256M_bit_ == 32Mbyte |
| 07:47:09 | scorche | sounds likely |
| 07:47:36 | Adikdid | How do i find out what gen my iPod is? |
| 07:48:30 | amiconn | scorche: yep. 2 Mistakes in one section (1.1.2) |
| 07:49:01 | amiconn | Googling quickly tells that K4M56163PG is a 4M * 16bit * 4 banks SDRAM, i.e. 32Mbyte |
| 07:49:05 | scorche | amiconn: wouldnt surprise me...tis why i said it with a bit of caution above |
| 07:49:54 | Adikdid | do i install rockbox to iPod_Control folder or a sub folder in iPoD_control |
| 07:50:01 | Adikdid | it doesnt say in the mahual |
| 07:50:05 | scorche | yes it does |
| 07:50:34 | amiconn | jhMikeS: Your "only load what's needed" idea has one rather obvious problem - how does rockbox know which IDs _are_ needed? |
| 07:50:49 | amiconn | It needs a list, and that increases its size |
| 07:50:53 | Adikdid | no scorche it just says extract rockbox to the root folder |
| 07:51:02 | scorche | yes... |
| 07:51:03 | Llorean | It doesn't say "root folder" |
| 07:51:08 | Llorean | It says to the root of the device. |
| 07:51:09 | scorche | which tells you exactly where |
| 07:51:22 | Llorean | There's no mention of putting it in *any* folder. |
| 07:51:47 | Adikdid | root of your player’s drive |
| 07:51:47 | | Quit Adikdid ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") |
| 07:52:03 | jhMikeS | that's true though the list is parallel to the index array and each ID item could be 16bits. There might be a way to group things so an ID isn't needed for everything. |
| 07:52:22 | | Join Adikdid [0] (i=7cbac343@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-ea4647e6e96aeea2) |
| 07:52:38 | | Join ackbahr [0] (n=ackbahr@248-46.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch) |
| 07:52:40 | scorche | Adikdid: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_directory |
| 07:52:46 | amiconn | The index array is generated at runtime. The saving when introducing that was several KB |
| 07:52:47 | Llorean | amiconn: Why not include some metadata in the voice file then? Headers for each string that are stripped during loading? |
| 07:53:14 | Adikdid | so i install it to K:\iPod_Control\Device |
| 07:53:22 | scorche | no |
| 07:53:32 | scorche | did you read what i just linked you? |
| 07:53:37 | amiconn | Llorean: If there's a single .voice (and .lng) file, the core must know which are to be used, and that _is_ target specific, hence it needs to be built into the voice file |
| 07:53:41 | scorche | at least the first sentence? |
| 07:53:52 | | Join My_Sic [0] (n=MySic@mur31-1-82-237-204-133.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 07:53:52 | amiconn | Erm, into the core |
| 07:54:02 | Adikdid | yes scorche |
| 07:54:16 | Adikdid | On many Unices, there is also a directory which is named /root. Confusingly, it is not a root directory in the sense of this article, but rather the home directory of the Superuser (conventionally known as "root"). |
| 07:54:20 | Adikdid | that bit? |
| 07:54:24 | scorche | "first or top-most directory" |
| 07:54:28 | | Quit ackbahr (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 07:54:56 | jhMikeS | I also just became aware that the tables in the core are gap-free which is different than what I thought I knew. |
| 07:54:58 | Adikdid | so i just instal it to iPod_control then? |
| 07:55:09 | scorche | that is not the top-most directory |
| 07:55:09 | Llorean | amiconn: If there's a single voice file, couldn't it determine while loading from metadata in the voice file which lang strings not to load, though? |
| 07:55:14 | Llorean | Er, voice clips |
| 07:55:23 | amiconn | jhMikeS: I explained this multiple times... |
| 07:55:26 | Llorean | Adikdid: It doesn't go in *any* directory |
| 07:55:29 | amiconn | ...yesterday |
| 07:55:46 | Adikdid | Oh, where do i install it too then? |
| 07:55:47 | Adikdid | im confused now |
| 07:55:59 | Llorean | Adikdid: The root of your iPod. Not in any directories. |
| 07:56:23 | amiconn | Llorean: hmm.... |
| 07:56:32 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 07:56:36 | Adikdid | so do i just install it to /k? |
| 07:56:55 | ddalton | so has anyone had a look at p7561? any suggestions on what needs to be added? |
| 07:57:02 | jhMikeS | amiconn: I suppose I was just hearing it all wrong at the time then. |
| 07:57:03 | amiconn | In fact we could play cheap and just concatenate all voice files, making each core only load the chunk it needs |
| 07:57:21 | Llorean | amiconn: That'd be a fairly large file, no? |
| 07:57:27 | amiconn | That's in fact a modification of the idea how to support voice in plugins |
| 07:57:54 | amiconn | Llorean: Large for RAM? yes. Large for a disk? no |
| 07:58:12 | amiconn | But I admit this might be a bit too cheap |
| 07:58:17 | Llorean | I dunno, a 15mb file on a 1gb player isn't ideal. |
| 07:58:27 | amiconn | Still less than one song |
| 07:58:36 | amiconn | Erm, no |
| 07:58:43 | * | amiconn isn't 100% awake yet |
| 07:58:43 | jhMikeS | though in talking this out some other ideas are congealing and no ID may be nescessary and full order independence preserved. |
| 07:58:56 | Adikdid | i got it! |
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| 07:59:51 | amiconn | Llorean: But at least better than trying to load it into 2MB ram ;) |
| 08:00 |
| 08:00:02 | Llorean | amiconn: Very true, indeed. :) |
| 08:00:20 | Adikdid | why cant i get out of a photo when i look at one on my iPod |
| 08:01:57 | Adikdid | man this building database shit is gonna take ages |
| 08:02:06 | amiconn | Well, each clip/string could have associated flags which tell what targets it is used on |
| 08:02:39 | amiconn | But that puts a limit on the number of supportable targets depending on how many bits we reserve |
| 08:02:52 | Llorean | This is true. |
| 08:03:35 | Llorean | But you can add more bits when necessary, anyway, since it's unlikely the file will never need to be rebuilt? |
| 08:04:20 | Adikdid | hey can soemone please tell me how to install themes into rockbox? |
| 08:04:33 | amiconn | 32bit would be sufficient atm (we have 27 targets in configure atm, 3 of them are more or less dead) |
| 08:05:35 | amiconn | This idea would require giving strings which how have different per-target content a separate ID |
| 08:05:44 | amiconn | s/how/now/ |
| 08:06:06 | * | jhMikeS was thinking something similar. just an index array for the target in the header. |
| 08:06:17 | amiconn | Hmm, but it leaves one important problem - the built-in language |
| 08:07:38 | amiconn | There's another problem - even if the core then knows _which_ clips/strings to load, it still needs to know _where_ in memory to load them |
| 08:08:15 | amiconn | That doesn't pose problems on any of the disk based targets, but it does on Ondio |
| 08:08:40 | amiconn | On Ondio we don't load the whole voice file at once, because that'd be too slow |
| 08:08:41 | jhMikeS | on the old idea, the IDs would be sorted and a matching ID put into the slot at that matching key |
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| 08:08:57 | amiconn | Instead we just load the index array, and clips are then loaded on demand |
| 08:09:36 | amiconn | Hmm, that could still work if there's also a table of the clip sizes |
| 08:10:05 | jhMikeS | you'd need that. I'd want most of the file to be able to be skipped and never loaded. |
| 08:10:51 | nerochiaro | hi all, quick question: just wondering if is anyone aside of Linus working on avoiding the source tree appreading 3 times inside the archived daily builds ? |
| 08:10:56 | amiconn | If we think about that, we should also keep in mind that plugins might also want to use voice |
| 08:11:31 | | Quit My_Sic ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org") |
| 08:11:50 | amiconn | In fact that's not much different from the target selectivity |
| 08:13:31 | amiconn | Also keep in mind that the file should be loadable without skipping back. Seeking is costly |
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| 08:14:09 | amiconn | Skipping forward is okay; should be faster than plain reading |
| 08:14:48 | | Quit Adikdid ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") |
| 08:15:38 | amiconn | The built-in language problem could be solved like it is now - by actually leaving out the strings which don't apply to the target |
| 08:15:55 | amiconn | On disk they wouldn't be left out |
| 08:16:22 | * | jhMikeS just wants this little H10 disk glitch figured out before trying more big projects (oh, pcm rework :))) important those get in SVN soon. |
| 08:16:40 | Llorean | Of course another solution is just to have working TTS. ;) |
| 08:16:55 | * | amiconn wants to get the 1st/2nd gen support out the door |
| 08:17:01 | amiconn | Llorean: On archos? |
| 08:17:04 | Llorean | Ah, true |
| 08:17:10 | Llorean | I was just kidding anyway |
| 08:17:26 | Llorean | Voice files should pretty much be kept on no matter what, as prerendered should always be able to sound better, right? |
| 08:17:31 | amiconn | And given how festival sounds compared to the voice files I used before, I would still like to have a choice |
| 08:17:53 | Llorean | Have you tried espeak or flite yet? |
| 08:18:11 | jhMikeS | *chant* death to codec swapping |
| 08:18:16 | Llorean | Though they still aren't near the class of AT&T |
| 08:18:17 | GodEater | flite is just dreadful |
| 08:18:17 | amiconn | I just used the downloaded voice file; no time to fiddle with voice generation on linux |
| 08:18:39 | Llorean | GodEater: flite was better than festival I thought. But I prefer espeak right now |
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| 08:19:13 | GodEater | Llorean: didn't you think flite sounded like someone in slow motion ? |
| 08:19:15 | * | amiconn used a quite outdated at&t voice before. |
| 08:19:29 | Llorean | GodEater: The pitching was a bit funky |
| 08:19:46 | amiconn | The festival voices are quire slow, even for me as a non-native english speaker |
| 08:19:49 | GodEater | I much prefer espeak of the three |
| 08:19:52 | * | jhMikeS wonders when 1st/2nd gen support will be out the door enough so real dual core support can be realized _finally_. |
| 08:19:53 | amiconn | s/quire/quite/ |
| 08:20:21 | amiconn | jhMikeS: I need to get my head around the backlight thread. I need a way to suspend backlight |
| 08:20:26 | markun | Llorean: I prefer to listen to espeak with -s 200 -p 20 (faster + lower pitch) |
| 08:20:42 | Llorean | markun: 200wpm? |
| 08:20:43 | markun | but maye that doesn't make sense for voice files |
| 08:20:44 | amiconn | I think I can simplify some things, but I didn't try it yet |
| 08:20:51 | jhMikeS | the dual core support adds an object to make that possible |
| 08:20:55 | Llorean | One of the voice files hosted in the wiki was 440wpm |
| 08:21:15 | markun | wow |
| 08:21:16 | amiconn | As soon as I have suspend working, I want to publish a bootloader |
| 08:21:47 | Llorean | markun: Perhaps we should poll the blind users and ask what they consider a reasonable average speed |
| 08:21:48 | amiconn | jhMikeS: I don't want to suspend the thread. It should still process messages in order to avoid queueing them up |
| 08:21:57 | jhMikeS | the event object would be just the thing since it can be set to unsignalled and keep the thread waiting until it's signaled again |
| 08:22:12 | markun | Llorean: but also non blind people use it (like amiconn) |
| 08:22:42 | Llorean | markun: Yes, we should probably pick on the lower end of whatever range they give. |
| 08:22:43 | jhMikeS | well, then it can test the object and just discard messages |
| 08:22:46 | Llorean | But it would help |
| 08:22:51 | amiconn | And if that bootloader is out, I need to research cache handling on PP5002. After that I want to bring dual core support on PP5002 on par with PP502x |
| 08:23:34 | amiconn | That will probably the most tricky part |
| 08:27:33 | jhMikeS | I suppse a while (1) { do { queue_wait(...) } while (flag); switch(ev) {} } |
| 08:28:38 | jhMikeS | The par should be real dual support PP502x though. |
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| 08:32:29 | jhMikeS | amiconn: there is an odd problem with caching. it shows as those prefetch aborts using mpegplayer and they happen at the call to mpeg2_init. I can splash a message just before the call but a splash as the first thing in mpeg2_init is not seen. |
| 08:32:56 | markun | Llorean: are the daily voice files made with espeak? |
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| 08:35:06 | amiconn | markun: With festival afaik |
| 08:35:22 | GodEater | yeah festival |
| 08:35:38 | amiconn | jhMikeS: I think dualcore support on PP5002 won't be different from PP502x once cache handling is figured out |
| 08:36:27 | amiconn | We don't know yet how to flush or invalidate properly. But I already found a cache setup function (while looking for something completely different, as usual) |
| 08:38:30 | amiconn | jhMikeS: Do you think a SYS_SUSPEND message would make sense? I now think it does... |
| 08:38:53 | amiconn | And that message should be acknowledged, like USB |
| 08:38:55 | jhMikeS | why not? it could be handling much like SYS_USB_CONNECT |
| 08:39:00 | amiconn | yup |
| 08:39:11 | jhMikeS | *handled even |
| 08:39:40 | amiconn | AT least 2 threads must do something on suspend. Backlight must switch off backlight regardless of settings, and pcm playback must shut down the codec |
| 08:39:47 | amiconn | (audio codec I mean) |
| 08:39:54 | jhMikeS | the sansa's cache setup values are not what are set in rb. i know that much. |
| 08:40:17 | amiconn | Perhaps some more cache RE is due also for PP502x? |
| 08:41:01 | jhMikeS | I think so. this error is too odd and no amount of flushing seems to solve it. maybe it does have some separate instruction lines. |
| 08:41:55 | amiconn | I doubt that, but perhaps flushing while running from cache doesn't flush everything? |
| 08:42:16 | amiconn | Did you try flushing from an iram function? |
| 08:42:29 | jhMikeS | never but could try it |
| 08:42:54 | amiconn | I had a similar problem in my suspend hack - the suspend function sends the dram controller to sleep, but it won't go to sleep while running from dram |
| 08:43:14 | amiconn | Now that I understand how it works, I put the function into iram and it works |
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| 08:43:28 | amiconn | (it's just the OF's asm function hacked to pieces atm) |
| 08:45:37 | jhMikeS | If it weren't for the little H10 disk glitch I'd clean up and commit this core thing ASAP. I'll do the IRAM tester now though. |
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| 08:47:45 | amiconn | jhMikeS: I would like to see it tested on other PP5020 targets. Unfortunately I also could test on H10 only |
| 08:47:54 | amiconn | linuxstb could test on ipod color |
| 08:48:58 | | Quit Rob222241 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 08:48:59 | jhMikeS | amiconn: well, maybe you'd notice something important and narrow it down. |
| 08:50:44 | GodEater | amiconn: do you still have LinusN's 5.5G ? |
| 08:50:49 | amiconn | yes |
| 08:50:55 | GodEater | do you use it at all ? |
| 08:51:05 | amiconn | No, only for testing |
| 08:51:24 | GodEater | hmm, then you've not likley noticed the issue I have |
| 08:51:38 | GodEater | which is that when "off" it seems to randomly turn itself on again all by itself |
| 08:51:46 | GodEater | I've noticed this a few times in the last couple of weeks |
| 08:51:53 | | Join ender` [0] (i=krneki@84-255-206-8.static.dsl.t-2.net) |
| 08:51:57 | | Quit webguest52 ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)") |
| 08:52:02 | GodEater | which certainly doesn't help the battery life issue |
| 08:52:06 | scorche | GodEater: with the hold button on? |
| 08:52:13 | GodEater | even with the hold button on yes |
| 08:52:21 | GodEater | only then of course it starts into Apple OS mode |
| 08:52:31 | jhMikeS | argh ... why am I getting "relocation truncated to fit" ? isn't that foced long? |
| 08:52:59 | amiconn | Does the function have 'static' in front of it? |
| 08:53:21 | jhMikeS | yeah, just tried removing that |
| 08:53:47 | amiconn | Use STATICIRAM instead (which evaluates to nothing if the function must be called far) |
| 08:53:52 | amiconn | This is a gcc bug |
| 08:53:55 | Llorean | GodEater: A friend of mine with a 5G mentioned similar behaviour |
| 08:54:14 | GodEater | at first I though I'd not been shutting it down |
| 08:54:16 | amiconn | GodEater: Alarm setting? |
| 08:54:22 | GodEater | amiconn: I don't use it |
| 08:54:29 | amiconn | I never enabled that, and I also never saw that behaviour |
| 08:54:57 | * | GodEater goes to check to make doubly sure, but is pretty certain he's never even been into that menu |
| 08:55:45 | GodEater | yeah - definitely disabled |
| 08:56:02 | amiconn | jhMikeS: If you look at tata.c, you'll see several occurences of STATICIRAM. That's where I needed it for getting rid of sectioned compilation |
| 08:56:23 | amiconn | *ata.c |
| 08:56:58 | jhMikeS | I saw those in the encoder codecs too |
| 08:58:22 | amiconn | Ah, yes |
| 08:58:35 | amiconn | But ata.c is the only place in the core so far |
| 08:59:07 | | Join B4gder [0] (n=daniel@static-213-115-255-230.sme.bredbandsbolaget.se) |
| 09:00 |
| 09:00:05 | jhMikeS | This problem occurs after using one cop using plugin and then mpegplayer but not the other way around |
| 09:00:53 | amiconn | What other plugin uses the cop? |
| 09:01:45 | jhMikeS | a tester for this. it makes it happen. my patch itself does not cause this problem but running it first can make it happen every time. |
| 09:01:47 | | Join enyc_ [0] (n=enyc@router.1.whitehorse.co.uk) |
| 09:01:52 | amiconn | aha |
| 09:01:59 | amiconn | Well, the cop has its own cache |
| 09:02:19 | jhMikeS | all thread creation invalidates before running the thread |
| 09:03:41 | amiconn | When loading a plugin, both cores need to flush caches before loading the file into ram. While loading, the cop must not touch the plugin ram area |
| 09:03:51 | jhMikeS | like I said, I can run anything I want in video_thread up to the call to mpeg2_init which sends it off on some address past the plugin buffer or does the C0EDBABE thing...or sometimes DEADBEEE |
| 09:04:32 | jhMikeS | It doesn't. Threads on dual core are treated like entrypoints always. |
| 09:04:35 | amiconn | If the cop's cache is flushed when the plugin is already loaded, it will overwrite the plugin if it had some plugin data cached before |
| 09:04:58 | jhMikeS | I'm flushing just before the thread is removed. |
| 09:05:25 | amiconn | Then it still runs in plugin ram, doesn't it? |
| 09:05:34 | jhMikeS | There is a stall in the CPU thread to allow more than enough time for the thread to be gone into oblivion |
| 09:06:13 | amiconn | Yes, but the COP's cache will still have some data cached |
| 09:06:17 | | Quit My_Sic ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org") |
| 09:06:24 | jhMikeS | it does and the caches are being invalidated |
| 09:07:03 | jhMikeS | ummm, from where? it's flushed _after_ it reenters core code. |
| 09:07:19 | | Quit enyc (Connection timed out) |
| 09:08:29 | | Join Jon-Kha_ [0] (n=Jon-Kha@80-248-243-10.cust.suomicom.fi) |
| 09:09:22 | jhMikeS | the plugin will not have exited before this is complete. it waits for 1/10 second before exiting plugin_start after getting the signal from the COP thread that it is terminating. the next thing the COP thread does after setting the flag is to call remove_thread |
| 09:09:36 | | Join enyc [0] (n=enyc@1337.whitehorse.co.uk) |
| 09:10:34 | | Join LinusN [0] (i=linus@rockbox/developer/LinusN) |
| 09:10:38 | | Quit Jon-Kha_ (Client Quit) |
| 09:11:43 | * | Llorean wonders how long rockboxdev.sh will take under Msys and whether it will succeed. |
| 09:12:06 | GodEater | wth is Msys ? |
| 09:12:14 | Llorean | mingw32's shell. |
| 09:12:20 | GodEater | ah |
| 09:12:21 | Llorean | Or mingw rather |
| 09:12:37 | Llorean | I'm trying to see if it's possible, without too much insanity, to make voices with it. |
| 09:12:40 | | Join petur [0] (n=petur@rockbox/developer/petur) |
| 09:13:04 | | Join JajaComp [0] (i=d521d7aa@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-f7361cac4ba3e35f) |
| 09:13:10 | JajaComp | Hello!!! |
| 09:13:11 | | Quit aliask (Remote closed the connection) |
| 09:13:22 | Llorean | It's very slow. So very, very slow. |
| 09:13:31 | JajaComp | How I can make rockmox sources? |
| 09:13:38 | amiconn | Llorean: Try sfu perhaps? |
| 09:13:44 | JajaComp | RockBox |
| 09:13:55 | Llorean | amiconn: Oooh, forgot all about that |
| 09:13:56 | * | GodEater wonders if it's possible to run it under Microsoft's Services For Unix |
| 09:14:01 | B4gder | JajaComp: do you mean build them? |
| 09:14:01 | Llorean | amiconn: I'll finish this test, then give that a shot. |
| 09:14:08 | Llorean | GodEater: That's what amiconn just suggested. :) |
| 09:14:09 | JajaComp | yes |
| 09:14:13 | jhMikeS | amiconn: odd thing is that the small test_queue plugin has no trouble running after mpegplayer and mpegplayer would certainly have overwritten the test. |
| 09:14:27 | * | GodEater didn't recognise the abbreviation as such |
| 09:14:37 | B4gder | JajaComp: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/DocsIndex#For_Developers |
| 09:14:58 | Llorean | GodEater: I had to google it before it clicked. |
| 09:15:11 | | Join aliask [0] (n=chatzill@c58-109-97-210.eburwd4.vic.optusnet.com.au) |
| 09:15:30 | Llorean | Of course, a part of the slow is probably the whole "msys in winxp in a VM" |
| 09:15:47 | | Join JdGordon [0] (n=jonno@rockbox/developer/JdGordon) |
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| 09:16:03 | JdGordon | hey all |
| 09:16:10 | * | Llorean doesn't expect this to be done until after he sleeps. |
| 09:19:13 | | Quit nick89 (Client Quit) |
| 09:20:39 | GodEater | JdGordon: did you notice we're still getting reports of "Filetype Array is full" even after your fixes yesterday ? |
| 09:21:09 | Llorean | GodEater: I'm pretty sure that's been patched now, for the time being |
| 09:21:39 | | Quit enyc_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 09:21:41 | GodEater | should someone mention that in the thread then ? |
| 09:21:56 | JdGordon | GodEater: yeah, I was expecting that, im half way through removing the array for good so didnt worry about it |
| 09:22:04 | JdGordon | petur upped the size though so we should be good now |
| 09:22:44 | jhMikeS | hrm...IRAM doesn't make any differece |
| 09:22:46 | | Quit w0rd54 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 09:22:50 | GodEater | ah ok |
| 09:23:26 | | Quit ldarby (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 09:23:59 | | Quit markun (Remote closed the connection) |
| 09:25:34 | amiconn | How does a 55fps->68fps speedup sound? :) |
| 09:25:48 | JdGordon | not worth the effort.... |
| 09:25:55 | JdGordon | </sarcasm> |
| 09:26:02 | GodEater | thank god |
| 09:26:06 | GodEater | I nearly spat my coffee out then |
| 09:26:07 | jhMikeS | like 13 more fps |
| 09:26:17 | amiconn | That's on 2nd gen |
| 09:26:26 | amiconn | I also sped up things on mini g2 |
| 09:26:31 | amiconn | (but not as much) |
| 09:27:08 | amiconn | 3 changes: (1) Don't have the timeout in lcd_wait_write. Provided the controller isn't buggy, this will always work |
| 09:27:36 | amiconn | (2) For mini g2, the register setup doesn't need to be performed for every access. It's sufficient to do it on init |
| 09:27:48 | amiconn | (3) For PP5002, put lcd_write_data in iram |
| 09:30:52 | * | jhMikeS is clueless about this cache thing but ran into similar oddness when experimenting with the dual-core spc codec. |
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| 09:53:53 | * | Llorean attempts the SFU route since his computer crashed anyway |
| 09:54:25 | GodEater | sfu is a huge download iirc |
| 09:54:45 | | Join tvg [0] (n=Me@89-178-9-76.broadband.corbina.ru) |
| 09:54:49 | tvg | Hi |
| 09:55:24 | Llorean | GodEater: 217mb looks like |
| 09:55:31 | Llorean | So far, assuming it doesn't go out and grab other bits |
| 09:55:42 | tvg | Couldn't you integrate my language patch? |
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| 09:56:35 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 09:56:57 | amiconn | Llorean: sfu core is pretty much that 217MB, but you probably need some other packages for building rockbox |
| 09:57:01 | amiconn | (at least gmake) |
| 09:57:45 | amiconn | And package installation is commandline based, i.e. more difficult than cygwin |
| 09:57:59 | markun | tvg: which patch? |
| 09:58:01 | * | amiconn thinks the cygwin installer is quite nice for its job |
| 09:58:25 | tvg | markun: this one: http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/7558 |
| 09:59:30 | Llorean | amiconn: Is interix make not compatible? It sounds like it comes with its own version? |
| 09:59:56 | B4gder | Llorean: I would guess not, rockbox relies on gnu make extensions |
| 10:00 |
| 10:00:03 | amiconn | Well, last time I tried the provided 'make' didn't manage to build rockbox |
| 10:00:15 | amiconn | It doesn't know -C, for instance |
| 10:00:18 | Llorean | Ah |
| 10:00:48 | markun | tvg: I'll commit it later today |
| 10:00:51 | LinusN | nerochiaro: i believe daniel fixed it several days aago |
| 10:01:00 | amiconn | It wasn't significantly faster than cygwin so I didn't follow this route further |
| 10:01:28 | tvg | markun: thank you, if there's something wrong, I'll correct soon. Bye. |
| 10:01:36 | amiconn | But the speed difference might be system dependent |
| 10:01:50 | Llorean | amiconn: It's going to be slow here anyway, I'm running in a VM |
| 10:01:56 | markun | B4gder: did you chose festival over espeak for the daily voice files because it sounds better? |
| 10:02:07 | B4gder | no, I just picked one |
| 10:02:23 | B4gder | my plan is to build multiple versions soon |
| 10:02:33 | | Quit ctaylorr_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 10:02:33 | markun | ok, even better |
| 10:03:21 | nerochiaro | LinusN: ah, let me check |
| 10:04:30 | amiconn | B4gder: There was some talk earlier regarding a possibility to return to a single voice file |
| 10:04:51 | amiconn | (and perhaps also .lng file) |
| 10:05:41 | B4gder | sure, if it is done without too much pain in the targets sure |
| 10:05:57 | | Join safetydan [0] (n=dan@rockbox/developer/safetydan) |
| 10:06:55 | | Quit tvg ("Leaving") |
| 10:07:11 | nerochiaro | LinusN: it's indeed fixed. sorry for the noise and thanks |
| 10:08:07 | LinusN | amiconn: concatenating files doesn't sound like a good idea to me, since the file would be ridiculously big |
| 10:08:17 | amiconn | jhMikeS: The table method might be the way to go, and would open up some further possibilities |
| 10:08:39 | amiconn | LinusN: Yes, that was just the most basic example |
| 10:10:09 | amiconn | voice file header: a struct array with a target id and a pointer to the table for that target further into the file |
| 10:10:24 | LinusN | the voice file format would be rather complex |
| 10:10:32 | amiconn | The last entry in that array would be an end marker |
| 10:10:57 | | Join rvvs89 [0] (n=rvvs89@unaffiliated/rvvs89) |
| 10:11:04 | amiconn | After that the tables for the targets are placed, and finally the individual clips |
| 10:11:32 | LinusN | the file would still be rather big, since each target can have different output for the same lang id |
| 10:11:58 | amiconn | Nope |
| 10:12:16 | amiconn | If there is different output for the same id right now, these ids must be split |
| 10:12:39 | | Join JdGordon [0] (n=jonno@rockbox/developer/JdGordon) |
| 10:12:44 | LinusN | but that was the whole point with langv2, wasn't it? |
| 10:12:46 | | Quit perrikwp ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.6/2007072518]") |
| 10:12:53 | amiconn | Not necessarily |
| 10:13:21 | LinusN | for example the button definitions |
| 10:13:41 | LinusN | one target says "SELECT" and another says "ON" etc |
| 10:13:51 | amiconn | The 2 points of langv2 were (1) to adjust texts per device and (2) save ram and binary size |
| 10:14:12 | B4gder | not only, but those were 2 of them |
| 10:14:21 | amiconn | But per-target voice files have a disadvantage that now shows up on the ml |
| 10:14:33 | LinusN | yes, and (1) means that the same lang id can have several voice clip representations |
| 10:14:45 | amiconn | Not everyone can build voice files, and the central build server can't provide all voice files either |
| 10:14:55 | amiconn | (there are dozens of supported languages) |
| 10:15:09 | B4gder | the central server could indeed collect all voices |
| 10:15:16 | | Quit Llorean (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 10:15:18 | B4gder | it wouldn't have to build them all itself |
| 10:15:23 | amiconn | No it can't |
| 10:15:29 | B4gder | it _could_ |
| 10:15:44 | amiconn | Only for freely distributable voices |
| 10:16:04 | amiconn | LinusN: Yes, but taking this further, nothing speaks against splitting these into several IDs, provided that each target only loads the IDs it needs |
| 10:16:06 | B4gder | yeah, but all these ones we talk about are what people distribute |
| 10:16:12 | JajaComp | error - "Invalid option 'long-calls'" ??? |
| 10:16:13 | B4gder | do they must be distributable |
| 10:16:24 | JajaComp | whot is? |
| 10:16:38 | LinusN | amiconn: take LANG_CONFIRM_WITH_BUTTON as an example |
| 10:16:43 | B4gder | JajaComp: you have a bad compiler version, go back and read CrossCompiler |
| 10:16:57 | LinusN | (which isn't voiced at the moment) |
| 10:17:26 | amiconn | LinusN: Yes, and? SPlit these into LANG_CONFIRM_WITH_PLAY, LANG_CONFIRM_WITH_SELECT etc |
| 10:17:27 | LinusN | but when it is, it will have several versions depending on the target |
| 10:17:44 | B4gder | but yeah, by making a huge voice file with a more complex header and sections the target separation can be done load-time instead of build-time |
| 10:17:48 | LinusN | amiconn: but we just merged them!!! |
| 10:17:57 | | Quit gtkspert (Remote closed the connection) |
| 10:18:04 | | Join obo [0] (n=obo@rockbox/developer/obo) |
| 10:18:10 | amiconn | The point is that the implementation should only load those which are needed on the specific target |
| 10:18:28 | B4gder | I would say that they should not be split in different IDs in the lang file nor in the code |
| 10:18:33 | | Join gtkspert [0] (n=gtkspert@gateless.info) |
| 10:18:41 | amiconn | They key is that an empty id has to be cheap, otherwise it won't work out nicely |
| 10:18:41 | B4gder | but it would somehow get done behind the schene |
| 10:18:49 | LinusN | B4gder: i agree |
| 10:19:00 | amiconn | Hmm, even that is possible |
| 10:19:32 | | Quit kubiix ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org") |
| 10:19:37 | LinusN | otherwise we would have tons of #ifdefs in the code |
| 10:19:42 | | Join pixelma [0] (i=pixelma@rockbox/staff/pixelma) |
| 10:19:50 | amiconn | Nothing stops the per-target tables to point to a different clip for the same id |
| 10:20:01 | LinusN | nope |
| 10:20:29 | amiconn | And it would be better because there are less empty IDs |
| 10:20:35 | LinusN | then again, what is the problem with target specific voice files? |
| 10:21:21 | B4gder | it certainly is more kiss like this |
| 10:21:32 | B4gder | in the target |
| 10:21:54 | LinusN | exactly |
| 10:22:21 | amiconn | LinusN: The problem is that they're target specific. (1) One needs to download or make the correct version for your target, otherwise some options won't be voiced, or worse, would be voiced wrong |
| 10:23:02 | | Join Llorean [0] (n=llorean@cpe-70-113-103-34.austin.res.rr.com) |
| 10:23:03 | LinusN | not much different from how it would be with a unified file, is it? |
| 10:23:09 | amiconn | (2) Imagine someone making a voice file with a not freely distributable voice for several of his blind frieds, which have different rockboxable devices |
| 10:23:15 | Llorean | My windows VM keeps crashing me. :( |
| 10:23:38 | LinusN | amiconn: this person would have to build several files |
| 10:23:42 | amiconn | Making one file and giving it to all of them would certainly be better |
| 10:24:02 | B4gder | and he wouldn't be allowed to distribute them in the first place so he only needs to build for his own target ,*) |
| 10:24:09 | LinusN | :-) |
| 10:24:23 | pondlife | Assuming he was able to build them under Windows :) |
| 10:24:36 | LinusN | :-) |
| 10:24:39 | amiconn | B4gder: That's not quite correct. Giving away the file to persons you know doesn't count as distribution |
| 10:24:42 | pondlife | I like the idea of self-built via RBUtil best. |
| 10:24:44 | B4gder | yeah, but I guess in the end someone using Windows will step forwards |
| 10:24:54 | B4gder | amiconn: it depends on where you are |
| 10:25:04 | Llorean | pondlife: RBUtil building them will probably be the best plan |
| 10:25:05 | pondlife | i.e. don't concentrate effort on distributables, more on enabling. |
| 10:26:02 | B4gder | yeah |
| 10:26:16 | B4gder | but the problem is, as often in this project, when there's windows stuff involved |
| 10:26:26 | B4gder | as we quickly provide linux solutions |
| 10:26:26 | amiconn | B4gder: The at&t license states that iirc (that you can give the output to others, as long as you don't make it publicly available) |
| 10:27:09 | B4gder | I still don't care much about the people using those voices |
| 10:27:14 | B4gder | they are evil |
| 10:27:44 | B4gder | but that's beside the point here anyway |
| 10:27:59 | pondlife | People should be able to use whatever voice they have available, for both .voice and .talk files. That's the basic point. |
| 10:28:22 | B4gder | yes |
| 10:28:25 | amiconn | The voices sound way better than festival |
| 10:28:39 | B4gder | amiconn: that is entirelly besides the point for all this |
| 10:28:48 | pondlife | That implies self-built is the way to go. |
| 10:29:46 | | Join wippeout [0] (n=wippeout@jma42-1-88-169-39-211.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 10:29:48 | wippeout | hello |
| 10:29:55 | amiconn | LinusN, B4gder: Regarding the amount of KISS, I tend to think that it won't change much. Certainly less than some other, recent changes & additions |
| 10:30:08 | amiconn | The Ondio already has some kind of chunked loading |
| 10:30:48 | amiconn | The more I think about it, the more I like the idea. Especially since it also provides an easy path towards voice in plugins |
| 10:31:17 | amiconn | (another goal of langv2 we didn't achieve yet) |
| 10:31:29 | B4gder | as I said, U |
| 10:31:33 | B4gder | I'm not against the idea |
| 10:32:00 | B4gder | I am against letting the whiners on the users list set the agenda though |
| 10:32:23 | B4gder | being blind is not an excuse for being ignorant |
| 10:33:02 | B4gder | I'll volunteer to adapt the language scripts for a modified system towards unified voice file |
| 10:33:23 | markun | hi wippeout |
| 10:33:24 | pondlife | I don't see a unified voice file as desirable |
| 10:33:45 | markun | pondlife: why not? |
| 10:33:50 | pondlife | Not if it's bigger than a dedicated one (i.e. less audio buffer) |
| 10:33:50 | markun | too much wasted space? |
| 10:33:59 | LinusN | space where? |
| 10:34:19 | pondlife | Why not just have a policy of build-it-yourself ? |
| 10:34:19 | | Join bluebrother [0] (i=0g1aBuri@rockbox/staff/bluebrother) |
| 10:34:39 | LinusN | markun: it would only load the clips for the target in question |
| 10:34:49 | pondlife | Ah, ok |
| 10:34:58 | B4gder | but it would still be a megabyte or two wasted in storage |
| 10:34:59 | LinusN | so the buffer usage would be the same as the current files |
| 10:35:08 | LinusN | B4gder: yes |
| 10:35:16 | pondlife | And bandwidth |
| 10:35:53 | pondlife | Particularly for home users with limited upstream |
| 10:36:07 | pondlife | i.e. those complaining on the ML |
| 10:36:22 | LinusN | now you lost me |
| 10:36:29 | B4gder | yeah, but supplying 22 voice files is more data than one unified |
| 10:36:47 | pondlife | Yes, but I would only download the H300 file, not them all. |
| 10:36:48 | LinusN | what does the upstream have to do with it? |
| 10:37:21 | B4gder | upstream, the ones uploading files, would benefit from a unified |
| 10:37:21 | amiconn | pondlife: The idea is that each target only loads the clips it needs into ram |
| 10:37:30 | ddalton | could someone please have a look at ddalton/time.diff">http://members.iinet.net.au/~ddalton/time.diff and tell me where I have done the indentation wrong? |
| 10:37:39 | pondlife | I know, but how much bigger would the .voice file be? Say 20%? |
| 10:37:50 | Llorean | rasher: text2wav textfile -o wavfile.wav for festival without using it as a server. |
| 10:37:51 | B4gder | I'd guess at more than 20% |
| 10:37:58 | LinusN | pondlife: something along those lines |
| 10:38:07 | amiconn | The per-target tables in the beginning won't be big, just an offset and a length per clip used |
| 10:38:21 | amiconn | So if a target uses 500 clips, that's 4KB |
| 10:38:28 | pondlife | So if I download Andre's voice file for my H300, I'm using 20% more of his limited upstream bandwidth. |
| 10:38:37 | B4gder | yeah, its the clips that'll do the size diff not really the tables |
| 10:38:50 | B4gder | pondlife: ah, yes |
| 10:38:54 | amiconn | For 30 targets, that's 120KB |
| 10:39:21 | B4gder | hey, I can check the total size of all clips... |
| 10:39:26 | B4gder | as a comparison |
| 10:39:27 | pondlife | It's not a biggie, but I just think any coding effort should be aimed at making self-build easy for all users. |
| 10:39:51 | pondlife | i.e. spend our time on MakeVoices.vbs and RBUtil. |
| 10:39:57 | aliask | ddalton: Too much indentation. |
| 10:39:58 | amiconn | The clips would then include all alternatives, but I think the whole file will be <50% larger than one of the swcodec files today |
| 10:40:10 | pondlife | While Rockbox itself is KISSed. |
| 10:40:19 | B4gder | we have 655 different phrases |
| 10:40:31 | LinusN | the total voice pool is ~2.5MB |
| 10:40:36 | B4gder | ids |
| 10:40:59 | amiconn | LinusN: And how much of that is included in an average voice file? |
| 10:41:01 | B4gder | which then is >50% |
| 10:41:13 | amiconn | Btw, it depends on the voice used how large the pool is |
| 10:41:27 | LinusN | amiconn: between 800K and 1.3MB |
| 10:41:27 | B4gder | let's do these ones now for comparison |
| 10:41:32 | JajaComp | I can use gcc 4.1.2 to compile RockBox? |
| 10:41:40 | B4gder | JajaComp: read CrossCompiler again |
| 10:42:11 | JajaComp | i don't now how uninstall gcc 4.1.2 |
| 10:42:22 | amiconn | Well, let it be twice as large |
| 10:42:36 | markun | JajaComp: why uninstall it? |
| 10:42:53 | JajaComp | it's default compiller in my system |
| 10:43:01 | pondlife | BTW has anyone tested that my configure patch (for Cygwin voice building) doesn't break Linux voice building (or indeed program building). I'd like to commit it. |
| 10:43:02 | markun | then it's not a cross compiler |
| 10:43:28 | markun | you can use gcc 4.1.2 to build the crosscompiler to build rockbox |
| 10:43:29 | LinusN | i'm beginning to like the idea of a unified voice file |
| 10:44:10 | LinusN | consisting of the entire voice pool and a table per target |
| 10:44:45 | B4gder | I like how it can also fix the plugin voice problem |
| 10:44:51 | amiconn | It has advantages for our distribution (less overall file size), for users (less confusion of which files to use), and especially for users with different targets, or users downloading voices for other users as well |
| 10:44:51 | LinusN | but the loading will be complex, involving plenty of seeking |
| 10:44:57 | ddalton | what plugin voice problem? |
| 10:45:06 | B4gder | ddalton: plugins aren't voiced today |
| 10:45:16 | amiconn | LinusN: Only forward seeking if done right (except on Ondio) |
| 10:45:40 | B4gder | seeking like mad, yes |
| 10:45:48 | | Join PaulJam [0] (n=pauljam@p54BCCC91.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 10:46:01 | amiconn | The only disadvantage is that users which only need voice on one single target need to download a larger file |
| 10:46:11 | LinusN | amiconn: true, it could optimize for only forward seeking by sorting the clip indexes |
| 10:46:18 | B4gder | which is 99% of the users :-) |
| 10:46:21 | JajaComp | how? −−enable-libssp=no??? |
| 10:46:50 | amiconn | B4gder: They would still profit from less confusion, and from the ability to use other user's voice files |
| 10:46:57 | B4gder | sure |
| 10:47:09 | B4gder | but |
| 10:47:14 | LinusN | i think ease of use outweighs the file size |
| 10:47:16 | B4gder | they will not get an easier build system |
| 10:47:20 | JajaComp | I see error "cc1: Invalid option 'long-calls'" |
| 10:47:30 | LinusN | B4gder: that is true |
| 10:47:43 | pondlife | 97% of users only want files for a single target... another made-up statistic. |
| 10:47:43 | Llorean | amiconn: Under that system, couldn't users still generate a target-specific file if they wanted? |
| 10:47:51 | amiconn | Llorean: yes |
| 10:47:54 | markun | JajaComp: which instructions are you following? |
| 10:47:55 | Llorean | If file size was a concern. |
| 10:48:04 | Llorean | For us people with tiny amounts free, and all. |
| 10:48:13 | amiconn | A target specific file would only include the table for one target and the needed clips |
| 10:48:23 | B4gder | Llorean: ah yes they could |
| 10:48:34 | Llorean | B4gder: It's more or less a best of both worlds deal. ;) |
| 10:48:34 | LinusN | amiconn: it could even include empty tables for the other targets |
| 10:48:52 | amiconn | LinusN: Yes, but that's not needed |
| 10:49:08 | amiconn | If a target can't find its matching table, it simply won't load the voice file |
| 10:49:23 | B4gder | exactly |
| 10:49:34 | B4gder | it would need to scan for its own target section |
| 10:49:34 | LinusN | i like this |
| 10:49:45 | pondlife | Yes, that makes sense. |
| 10:49:57 | pondlife | But ALSO work on the self-build stuff... :) |
| 10:49:59 | LinusN | now over to how to build the voices without a compiler |
| 10:50:31 | LinusN | i guess a rudimentary c preprocessor implementation is needed |
| 10:50:38 | B4gder | yes |
| 10:50:48 | B4gder | I happen to have one |
| 10:50:55 | LinusN | in perl? |
| 10:51:09 | B4gder | no in C, but I'm quite sure it builds fine on windows too |
| 10:51:31 | B4gder | or could be made to without too much pain |
| 10:51:44 | B4gder | http://daniel.haxx.se/projects/fcpp/ |
| 10:52:16 | pondlife | If we're using a non-standard C program, why not make it do the whole thing? |
| 10:52:37 | Llorean | Or we could hunt down a C preprocessor in perl. I'll bet one or five exist. |
| 10:52:38 | B4gder | ugh |
| 10:52:52 | B4gder | pondlife: because I don't wanna do the whole voice process in C |
| 10:53:06 | B4gder | Llorean: indeed |
| 10:53:46 | B4gder | like http://www.cabaret.demon.co.uk/filepp/ |
| 10:53:49 | pondlife | Hmm, I suppose RBUtil will hide any complexity and make it accessible. |
| 10:54:03 | Llorean | B4gder: Exactly what I found |
| 10:54:07 | Llorean | Was looking for a license. |
| 10:54:21 | Llorean | There's a debian package for it, it seems, so I have to assume it's in the clear. |
| 10:54:31 | Llorean | GPLv2, okay |
| 10:55:04 | B4gder | seems like a fine candidate for this then |
| 10:56:10 | Llorean | I seem to recall there being other situations where configure demanded a compiler and I didn't think it reasonable to expect one. Manual maybe? Could it clear these up to? |
| 10:56:10 | pondlife | Hmm, does this not mean that Windows users will need perl? |
| 10:56:37 | * | pondlife is not much experienced with scripting. |
| 10:57:02 | pondlife | Or can it be bundled into the RBUtil distribution... |
| 10:57:02 | B4gder | I really don't think building voices without perl is a worthwhile effort |
| 10:57:25 | B4gder | genlang is perl to start with |
| 10:57:29 | pondlife | Ah, ok |
| 10:58:04 | B4gder | so we've required perl for voices for a long time already |
| 10:58:51 | pondlife | Yes, but is it required for MakeVoices.vbs? I'm fairly sure I've not installed it (aside from inside Cygwin). |
| 10:59:52 | B4gder | if they do it without perl they either re-implemented lots of genlang stuff or built the voices wrong |
| 11:00 |
| 11:00:25 | B4gder | I've never looked at that script |
| 11:00:26 | pondlife | Wasn't it [IDC]Dragon who wrote it? |
| 11:00:37 | B4gder | yes |
| 11:00:38 | pondlife | Or amiconn? Will look.... |
| 11:00:41 | B4gder | but |
| 11:00:44 | Llorean | B4gder: Oh, btw, iPod Nano voice files are broken. |
| 11:00:54 | B4gder | back when we only had a single voice for all |
| 11:01:06 | B4gder | so I added an "old format" support for genlang |
| 11:01:09 | B4gder | to feed that script with |
| 11:01:09 | Llorean | Or at least, the one I built was, but the Gigabeat one was fine. |
| 11:01:20 | amiconn | MakeVoices.vbs was written by me |
| 11:01:48 | B4gder | still, it needs its input as given by genlang -o |
| 11:01:51 | ddalton | if I download an old revision and add a old patch. then I run svn up and then make a diff will this work? |
| 11:02:01 | B4gder | ddalton: perhaps, and perhaps not |
| 11:03:31 | amiconn | Yes, it does, since langv2 (first step) went in |
| 11:04:17 | pondlife | So this has been a prereq for a while now... |
| 11:04:20 | pondlife | ? |
| 11:04:22 | amiconn | But pretty much everything that can be done in perl can also be done in vbscript, so once things stabilize, there is nothing that would stop a vbscript version for folks without cygwin |
| 11:04:52 | B4gder | right, everyone is free to do what they want of course |
| 11:04:52 | pondlife | Folks with Cygwin should just make voice same as Linux users anyway. |
| 11:04:59 | amiconn | (yes, vbscript does have a regex engine, just that not many people use it. MakeVoices.vbs does) |
| 11:05:26 | B4gder | its just that as usual, I expect the linux/cygwin perl method to stay up-to-date and accurate |
| 11:05:30 | amiconn | One problem atm is the need of a C preprocessor |
| 11:05:31 | B4gder | and all other efforts will lag |
| 11:05:53 | amiconn | That won't go away with unified voice files either |
| 11:06:16 | B4gder | no, and I prefer the unified voice build way anyway |
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| 11:07:00 | amiconn | But there's also perl for windows (activestate perl), so that shouldn't stop us |
| 11:07:20 | amiconn | And activestate perl integrates with activescripting, so it should even be able to use sapi objects etc |
| 11:07:36 | B4gder | since people have build voices for a while, clearly perl has not been a major hurdle to them |
| 11:08:48 | ddalton | What is the best way to voice a gui_syncsplash screen? |
| 11:12:25 | n1s | ddalton: maybe you can have a look at how it's done in other places |
| 11:16:22 | pondlife | OK, one more try.. Please can someone who's got Linux (or VMWare) running try http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/7560 out and check it doesn't break the Linux build processes. |
| 11:16:42 | pondlife | I want to commit, but not break the daily voice build! That would not be popular at this point... |
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| 11:23:49 | n1s | pondlife: ok, I'll try it |
| 11:25:26 | amiconn | B4gder: Iiuc you already implemented one part of building unified voice files (the clip cache) |
| 11:26:01 | B4gder | rasher made that really, I just used his work |
| 11:26:14 | pondlife | n1s: Thanks |
| 11:26:14 | B4gder | but yes the foundation is there |
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| 11:26:39 | amiconn | Ok, whoever did it, it's there :) |
| 11:26:49 | pondlife | Dontcha just love OSS :) |
| 11:27:42 | n1s | hmm, voice crashes seem related to resuming playback on startup |
| 11:28:20 | * | pondlife does the "no voice codec swap" chant too |
| 11:28:33 | amiconn | n1s: If so, I suspect a race in the voce & playback init, combined with the voiced splashes |
| 11:29:35 | amiconn | pondlife: Yeah, just that there is a problem: no voice codec swap means (almost) no iram for the voice codec |
| 11:29:57 | pondlife | I'm still not convinced that MP3 mono 22kHz playback needs IRAM. |
| 11:30:09 | amiconn | Some targets probably can't cope |
| 11:30:28 | amiconn | No, pure voice maybe doesn't need it, but what about voice during playback? |
| 11:30:28 | pondlife | Ipod 1G would suffer most, right? |
| 11:30:44 | pondlife | 1/2G |
| 11:31:19 | pondlife | It should be easy to experiment with - disable IRAM for the MP3 codec and play some AAC (or WMA) with voice. |
| 11:31:21 | amiconn | 1/2/3G, and perhaps all coldfire targets |
| 11:31:34 | pondlife | Compare with and without. |
| 11:31:39 | amiconn | Remember that coldfire has no data cache |
| 11:32:38 | pondlife | Buit we're only needing one quarter of the data rate than for normal MP3 playback. |
| 11:33:05 | amiconn | I did an experiment a while ago - running with caches disabled on PP5022 |
| 11:33:22 | amiconn | It was ~7x as slow... |
| 11:33:40 | pondlife | Ouch |
| 11:33:48 | n1s | pondlife: working voice file built with patch, no problem :-9 |
| 11:33:50 | n1s | :-) |
| 11:33:51 | amiconn | Ouch indeed, but expectable |
| 11:34:04 | pondlife | n1s: You mean using festival? |
| 11:34:15 | n1s | pondlife: I used flite |
| 11:34:19 | pondlife | OK |
| 11:34:45 | * | n1s goes to eat pie, bbiab |
| 11:34:47 | pondlife | How about building Rockbox itself. I don't think I broke anything but rasher's configure mod also happens. |
| 11:34:53 | pondlife | Oops, too late |
| 11:35:15 | * | pondlife may finish that sentence later. |
| 11:35:35 | amiconn | I didn't check what samplerate the new voice files use. Before per-target voice, it was common to use 12kHz |
| 11:37:09 | amiconn | We must avoid using 11kHz for archos player. Other than that, all standard mp3 sample rates are possible, with only one further constraint for all archoses: For mpeg2.5 sample rates, we must use lame -B 64 |
| 11:37:41 | amiconn | (limit maximum bitrate to 64kbps - voice files are vbr) |
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| 11:42:51 | PaulJam | hi, i have a little question about the custom icons: with some recent svn change the items in the open_with menu now have an icon, and i was wondering if there is a way to specify which icon will be used for which viewer. i guess the viewers.config specifies the icon, but that file gets overwritten on every update. is there another way to do this? |
| 11:45:19 | amiconn | Hmm, a unified voice file would have to deal with bitswapping... |
| 11:45:26 | JdGordon | PaulJam: the icon the plugin is listed with first is the icon shown |
| 11:45:46 | JdGordon | PaulJam: using the .icons file will also work |
| 11:47:44 | PaulJam | JdGordon: how? if i want for example to use icon 0 for the text_editor in the open with menu, what line would i have to put in the .icons file? |
| 11:48:27 | JdGordon | hmm... yeah, you cant.. |
| 11:48:30 | * | JdGordon forgot |
| 11:48:40 | JdGordon | the .icons is for extensions |
| 11:48:56 | JdGordon | you have to use viewers.config.. for now... im working on fixing this |
| 11:49:25 | PaulJam | ok, thanks. then i guess the best solution is to use the same order of the icons like in svn. |
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| 12:00 |
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| 12:25:34 | n1s | pondlife: rockbox builds fine, both normal h300 build and sim |
| 12:26:54 | pondlife | OK, I'll commit it now... 2 questions: 1) Are there some special property changes required when adding a file to SVN? 2) Anyone mind me commit .VBS files for the SAPI interface? |
| 12:27:08 | pondlife | s/commit/committing in that last bit. |
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| 12:28:15 | amiconn | The vbscript will probably need an svn:eol-style property |
| 12:28:53 | pondlife | OK, I'm about to lose power here so will commit a bit later |
| 12:28:53 | n1s | pondlife: UsingSVN says you should set the keywords property |
| 12:29:12 | pondlife | Ah, I was looking for that in the wiki, but missed it. |
| 12:29:19 | | Quit pondlife ("power down") |
| 12:33:16 | | Join adam2 [0] (n=get@220-245-250-49.free.tpgi.com.au) |
| 12:33:54 | adam2 | is there anybody out there? |
| 12:34:05 | B4gder | I'm in, not out! |
| 12:34:15 | adam2 | cool |
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| 12:38:53 | adam2 | i've got a gigabeat s60 guts only (no hdd or battery and lcd cracked) any use to rockbox developers for tracing cuicuits on the main board or not really? |
| 12:39:41 | B4gder | aliask is one of the gigabeast S dudes, he might have an answer |
| 12:40:19 | scorche | toffe82 as well...he builds up stockpiles of gigabeat parts |
| 12:40:29 | aliask | For hardware things I'd refer to toffe82 |
| 12:41:32 | aliask | But if someone accidentally flashes their player it could be a saviour |
| 12:41:46 | aliask | Flashes garbage, that is. |
| 12:42:49 | adam2 | you recon i should try puting it on ebay with the battery and hdd? see if i can get some $'s back for the new 1 i got....>? |
| 12:44:25 | | Part Llorean |
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| 12:52:20 | * | preglow finds out about plugin categories |
| 12:52:27 | preglow | is this just a directory thing, or something more fancy? |
| 12:52:43 | adam2 | Hmmm |
| 12:53:07 | amiconn | JdGordon: Why is mandelbrot sorted into games, btw? |
| 12:53:14 | amiconn | It's surely not a game |
| 12:53:27 | n1s | preglow: dirs with localizable menu to enter them |
| 12:53:39 | | Join DerPapst [0] (n=DerPapst@tux.isd-internet.de) |
| 12:53:46 | DerPapst | good day |
| 12:54:01 | JdGordon | amiconn: a mistake? |
| 12:55:11 | preglow | at least my vinyl preamp plug seems to work somewhat |
| 12:55:42 | * | amiconn wonders what that plugin does |
| 12:55:56 | amiconn | riaa deemphasis? |
| 12:56:18 | * | DerPapst wondered that too yesterday. |
| 12:57:26 | preglow | amiconn: aye |
| 12:57:58 | preglow | seems i'm doing something wrong, though, there's quite a bit of treble missing |
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| 12:59:22 | | Nick amiconn_ is now known as amiconn (n=jens@rockbox/developer/amiconn) |
| 12:59:29 | markun | adam2: if the hdd is working you could try to sell it separately |
| 12:59:32 | markun | same for the LCD |
| 12:59:40 | preglow | there's a bloody paper on this somewhere, but it's published by ieee, which loves taking cash for them |
| 12:59:44 | preglow | arghgh |
| 12:59:56 | markun | preglow: I can download it for you |
| 13:00 |
| 13:00:05 | markun | do you have a link? |
| 13:00:16 | adam2 | lcd is cracked, hdd and battery is on ebay for auction |
| 13:00:31 | amiconn | preglow: Now if this could be selected for recording... |
| 13:00:34 | markun | preglow: at least I hope I can.. |
| 13:00:51 | preglow | markun: that would rock, i'll dig up the url |
| 13:01:00 | preglow | markun: i used to be able to too, but not anymore, apparently... |
| 13:01:05 | aliask | adam2: Actually, I think I could use it for serial debugging |
| 13:01:30 | preglow | amiconn: i probably need to compensate for the pickup as well, i think |
| 13:01:34 | aliask | adam2: Do you mind if I PM you? |
| 13:01:40 | adam2 | aliask: np |
| 13:01:47 | preglow | most vinyl preamps have an mm/mc switch |
| 13:02:45 | amiconn | Yes, as MM output voltage is roughly one order of magnitude higher than MC output voltage |
| 13:03:17 | preglow | so it's just an amplitude thing? |
| 13:03:32 | preglow | i quite obviously need some kind of extra filtering here, the treble sucks |
| 13:05:22 | amiconn | DerPapst: Do you still have the patch I gave you? |
| 13:08:59 | preglow | amiconn: any idea on how many db gain you'd typically have to apply to gain a turntable signal to line in levels? |
| 13:09:08 | preglow | i'm using 48 db right now, and that works just peachy |
| 13:09:10 | preglow | but feels like i can do more |
| 13:09:22 | DerPapst | amiconn: yes |
| 13:09:29 | preglow | think i'll just add a control for that |
| 13:09:39 | petur | preglow: using 48dB on the iriver will be quite noisy |
| 13:09:48 | preglow | petur: sounds okish |
| 13:09:54 | preglow | remember we're talking vinyl here :) |
| 13:09:59 | petur | heh |
| 13:10:01 | amiconn | DerPapst: Iirc you said the 3rd gen also suffers from blacklevel varying with display content? |
| 13:10:22 | amiconn | You could try a small modification of my patch |
| 13:10:56 | amiconn | Find the void lcd_init_device(void) line, and within that function, the #elif defined IPOD_3G part |
| 13:11:11 | amiconn | (can't tell a line number 'case my lcd driver contains further patches) |
| 13:11:39 | DerPapst | amiconn: i'm at work currently. so i can do that test at 19:00 when i'm at home again. |
| 13:11:55 | amiconn | Then change the power_reg_h = 0x1500; in the if... branch to power_reg_h = 0x1520; |
| 13:12:10 | DerPapst | ok. i'll do that then. |
| 13:12:31 | amiconn | After installing this build, the lcd should behave like before, until you call 'View HW Info' once. Afterwards the blacklevel should vary less |
| 13:12:40 | amiconn | (until reboot) |
| 13:13:24 | amiconn | Those bits increase the frequency the voltage multiplier is running at, making the voltage more stable (and needing a tiny bit more power) |
| 13:13:41 | DerPapst | amiconn: sounds good :) |
| 13:14:12 | preglow | petur: is the adc gaining done purely in the digital domain, or? |
| 13:14:17 | | Part adam2 |
| 13:14:35 | amiconn | That wouldn't make sense imo |
| 13:14:51 | petur | 24dB analog, the rest digital (but on the internal 24(?)bit, not our 16bit |
| 13:15:42 | amiconn | preglow: http://www.euronet.nl/~mgw/background/riaa/uk_riaa_background_1.html |
| 13:17:21 | scorche | a gem: <Colombo> made rockbox is easy.. developers even have no ipods, just writing easy code and its work. |
| 13:17:45 | B4gder | yay |
| 13:17:48 | * | scorche goes about adding that to GoldenQuotes with other Colombo stuff |
| 13:17:54 | B4gder | haha |
| 13:17:56 | scorche | he is in #ipodlinux if you want to chat |
| 13:18:03 | B4gder | *g* |
| 13:18:46 | * | DerPapst enjoys Colombo as well |
| 13:19:01 | DerPapst | B4gder: btw thanks for cURL :D |
| 13:19:04 | scorche | DerPapst: isnt this entertaining? =P |
| 13:19:11 | DerPapst | indeed it is ;) |
| 13:19:13 | B4gder | DerPapst: you're welcome! |
| 13:20:26 | | Join Thundercloud [0] (n=thunderc@84-51-130-71.judith186.adsl.metronet.co.uk) |
| 13:21:02 | n1s | hmm, we actually call talk_init() 3 times during a regular boot, feels kind of hackish... |
| 13:22:18 | scorche | hehe...colombo is up to 3 in GoldenQuotes now.. |
| 13:22:45 | | Join Llorean [0] (n=llorean@cpe-70-113-103-34.austin.res.rr.com) |
| 13:24:02 | B4gder | n1s: amen |
| 13:24:22 | ddalton | How do I build a voice file using p7560? |
| 13:24:26 | amiconn | n1s: On all targets? |
| 13:26:47 | n1s | amiconn: on sw-codec at least in init() in main.c, first we call settings_apply() which calls talk_init() then we call talk_init() and then audio_init() which also calls talk_init() hwcodec may only call it twice, havent looked at audio_init() for those |
| 13:27:22 | | Quit ToHellWithGA (Nick collision from services.) |
| 13:27:30 | | Join ToHellWithGA [0] (n=ryan@d17-137.rt2-bras.clm.centurytel.net) |
| 13:27:36 | n1s | the good news is that removing the call in settings_apply() seems to fix the crashing (this is not a solution however) |
| 13:28:16 | n1s | gtg |
| 13:28:25 | amiconn | settings_apply() needs to call talk_init() in case changing the language changes availability of voice |
| 13:28:36 | amiconn | (afaik) |
| 13:30:27 | preglow | note to self: disable idle timeout in dsp plugs :> |
| 13:31:53 | preglow | after about ten minutes of music i got what i assumed was my speakers blowing :D |
| 13:32:16 | petur | lol |
| 13:32:41 | scorche | B4gder: he seems to be mute for now, but perhaps he shall come back and enlighten us... |
| 13:33:17 | B4gder | :-) |
| 13:34:25 | | Quit safetydan ("Ex-Chat") |
| 13:36:59 | | Quit spiorf (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 13:37:37 | | Join spiorf [0] (n=spiorf@host191-206-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 13:43:31 | n1s | amiconn: yes, but should I kill the other call or thell settings_apply to not call the init when we start up? |
| 13:43:51 | n1s | I mean kill the other call and rely on the one in settings apply? |
| 13:44:36 | amiconn | Good question... |
| 13:48:09 | n1s | I still don't know why this causes the hangs though... |
| 13:49:21 | amiconn | jhMikeS: What is the value of DEV_EN on Sansa? |
| 13:49:43 | amiconn | ...and how good is battery runtime compared with OF? |
| 13:50:05 | Llorean | I *think* on the Sansa we get about 3/4 of the OF |
| 13:50:31 | Llorean | The performance gap isn't as big as it is on other portalplayers as far as people seem to say, I haven't done an explicit test |
| 13:50:52 | amiconn | How is the ratio on Nano? |
| 13:51:24 | Llorean | I think I get about 8, Apple claims 14. |
| 13:51:28 | Llorean | But that 8 is from a long time ago. |
| 13:51:35 | Llorean | And my battery's now a year and a half old |
| 13:52:40 | Llorean | I wish the IpodRuntime page include AppleOS ones |
| 13:52:50 | DerPapst | Reboot |
| 13:52:58 | | Quit DerPapst (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 13:53:17 | | Nick chrisjs169__ is now known as chrisjs169 (n=chrisjs@pool-71-254-214-208.hrbgpa.east.verizon.net) |
| 13:53:21 | amiconn | Hmm, I would really like to see the DEV_EN value from Sansa |
| 13:53:31 | amiconn | Anyone with a Sansa who could check? |
| 13:53:49 | Llorean | Well, I've got one |
| 13:53:59 | | Quit haemmy () |
| 13:54:03 | Llorean | What do I need to do? |
| 13:54:05 | | Join webguest64 [0] (i=57b5e70f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-e18d24a7ef8a8dff) |
| 13:54:13 | amiconn | View I/O Port |
| 13:54:14 | amiconn | s |
| 13:54:17 | Llorean | Alright |
| 13:55:02 | Llorean | I don't see anything named DEV_EN on that screen? Do I need a newer build, or is it the DEV_0x34? |
| 13:55:43 | amiconn | You need a newer build then |
| 13:55:53 | | Join DerPapst [0] (n=DerPapst@tux.isd-internet.de) |
| 13:56:08 | Llorean | Alright, gimme a minute. |
| 13:56:09 | amiconn | I committed DEV_EN display on Aug 3, so an Aug 4 daily should do |
| 13:56:31 | Llorean | Yeah, mine's from before my trip, so July 27 or so |
| 13:56:41 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 13:57:22 | amiconn | DEV_0x34 is DEV_TIMING1 |
| 13:57:26 | webguest64 | Hi - jemand aus deutschland hier , der mir sagen kann, ob rockbox auf meinen zen xtra 30gb drauf geht? |
| 13:57:49 | B4gder | webguest64: this is an english channel |
| 13:57:52 | amiconn | (but I do not yet understand what it actually does) |
| 13:58:50 | | Quit ddalton ("I was using BOFHNet IRC version 1.2 by fmillion - get your copy today from http://www.the-bofh.com/bofhnet/irc !") |
| 13:59:39 | * | amiconn suspects there's a secondary DEV_EN on PP502x, like there is on PP5002 |
| 13:59:42 | webguest64 | ok thx - so anyone kann tell me if rockbox works on my zen xtra 30 gb ? |
| 13:59:58 | Llorean | amiconn: C440597F |
| 14:00 |
| 14:00:01 | Llorean | webguest64: No. |
| 14:00:09 | Llorean | webguest64: It only runs on the players listed on the site. |
| 14:01:48 | amiconn | Llorean: thx. |
| 14:01:50 | | Join pondlife [0] (n=Miranda@cpc1-rdng11-0-0-cust362.winn.cable.ntl.com) |
| 14:02:14 | amiconn | C... and ...97f seems to be common on all PP502x targets |
| 14:02:22 | webguest64 | what a pity |
| 14:02:30 | webguest64 | thx |
| 14:02:34 | amiconn | But the inbetween bits differ |
| 14:03:02 | GodEater | C2C1197F here |
| 14:03:02 | | Quit webguest64 ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") |
| 14:03:09 | GodEater | which is 5.5G of course |
| 14:05:07 | amiconn | I know the G5.5 value... |
| 14:05:09 | Llorean | And magically today my Nano can dump its ROM. |
| 14:05:12 | Llorean | Weird |
| 14:05:22 | amiconn | Ah, that reminds me |
| 14:05:34 | GodEater | sorry amiconn, was just letting Llorean know in case he was curious |
| 14:05:45 | Llorean | GodEater: Same value as my Nano, anyway |
| 14:06:05 | * | GodEater looks at the two values... |
| 14:06:19 | amiconn | Mini G2 sets the same as G5.5, and H10/6GB sets 0xC240197F |
| 14:06:49 | DerPapst | Llorean: your nano is wired. ;) |
| 14:06:55 | Llorean | DerPapst: Very |
| 14:06:57 | amiconn | Some of the bits are documented in the ipl wiki, but at least 2 of them must be wrong |
| 14:07:11 | Llorean | Now when I say "Dump Rom" there's no UI delay at all. Not even the slight delay it had before while writing. |
| 14:07:30 | GodEater | *gasp* - ipl be wrong?!?! |
| 14:07:32 | GodEater | surely not |
| 14:08:13 | DerPapst | i doubt that too. |
| 14:08:14 | amiconn | Well, they say bit 29 is IDE0 and bit 14 is ATA. Apart from that it is rather unlikely, both bits aren't set on any ipod |
| 14:08:38 | amiconn | But then bit 14 is set on Sansa which has no ATA |
| 14:10:40 | * | preglow tries to figure out the menu macro system |
| 14:10:53 | amiconn | Ehm, seems I can't read |
| 14:11:07 | amiconn | <bit 25 is IDE0 |
| 14:11:43 | amiconn | ...and that _is_ set on ipods and H10, but not on Sansa |
| 14:12:19 | amiconn | That still leaves several set bits unexplained |
| 14:13:53 | dionoea | win 16 |
| 14:13:57 | amiconn | Bits 0, 1, 3, 4, 5, 8, 30, 31 |
| 14:14:16 | preglow | what's up with declaring menu variables with a macro? |
| 14:14:22 | amiconn | (and, not set on ipods, bit 14, 21 and 26) |
| 14:16:16 | preglow | sometimes rockbox goes unresponsive after starting when i insert usb during startup, anyone had this before? |
| 14:17:23 | amiconn | Yes, that's a known problem |
| 14:17:27 | preglow | hrmph :/ |
| 14:17:29 | | Quit B4gder ("It is time to say MOOO") |
| 14:17:34 | amiconn | Happens since active usb detection was introduced |
| 14:17:43 | preglow | who introduced that? |
| 14:17:43 | | Part LinusN |
| 14:18:18 | amiconn | ...but it doesn't happen every time. It's more likely to happen when USB is already plugged at boot though |
| 14:18:19 | * | Llorean sighs. |
| 14:18:32 | * | elinenbe sighs too. |
| 14:18:36 | Llorean | I really don't think "expecting users to read the development list if they want to know what's going on with development" alienates users. |
| 14:19:27 | Llorean | USB detection on iPods is funky anyway. The "hold menu to prevent reboot" hardly works right now |
| 14:19:43 | amiconn | It works. YOu just need to hold Menu long enough |
| 14:19:44 | dionoea | you have to hold it for a few seconds |
| 14:19:49 | amiconn | >10 seconds |
| 14:19:49 | GodEater | well it does - but you have to hold it a LOOOONg time |
| 14:19:51 | preglow | Llorean: nah, i'd say that is fair |
| 14:20:11 | Llorean | preglow: There are a lot of upset blind people on the list regarding the voice file changes. |
| 14:20:20 | * | elinenbe thinks 10 seconds is just too long. Maybe it should be changed to 3 seconds. |
| 14:20:26 | Llorean | And I'm kinda of the opinion "it's been in the works for a year and a half, and nobody kept it a secret" |
| 14:20:38 | Llorean | amiconn: I tried twenty seconds on my Nano |
| 14:20:41 | Llorean | It's just not reliable. |
| 14:20:49 | | Join Ishi`` [0] (i=Ishi__@cro34-3-82-236-92-216.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 14:21:00 | GodEater | elinenbe: it's not intended to be 10 seconds |
| 14:21:00 | | Quit miepchen^schlaf (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 14:21:20 | preglow | Llorean: so i see |
| 14:21:23 | amiconn | It works for firewire. I still think we need to change state of the USB controller if we want to stop it |
| 14:21:23 | elinenbe | GodEater: ah... so that's the problem! |
| 14:21:35 | GodEater | elinenbe: yes! |
| 14:21:46 | preglow | i don't really think we had to bring out the big banners for that |
| 14:21:53 | preglow | we're in development anyway |
| 14:21:53 | elinenbe | GodEater: Do you REALLY eat god? |
| 14:21:58 | amiconn | (and that probably would solve the undetected usb device problem, and also be a bit linux friendlier with its sensitive usb stack) |
| 14:22:19 | GodEater | elinenbe: off topic.... |
| 14:22:39 | Llorean | preglow: That's my opinion. "If you download development builds, expect things to change. If you want to know what's going to change, pay attention to development. If you don't want things to change, don't change builds." |
| 14:22:59 | rasher | preglow, Llorean: It would probably be less of an issue if Rockbox did releases more than every couple of years |
| 14:23:03 | amiconn | But we want users to try new builds... |
| 14:23:11 | elinenbe | GodEater: not THAT off... |
| 14:23:13 | Llorean | amiconn: I'm all for users to try new builds. |
| 14:23:28 | | Quit TinoM (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) |
| 14:23:30 | Llorean | But I think the blind users are overreacting about the voice change. |
| 14:23:35 | | Quit Febs_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 14:23:51 | Llorean | Voice has been *broken* for longer than this. |
| 14:24:14 | Llorean | And now we're providing voice files (though they need some fixing still) |
| 14:24:45 | Llorean | rasher: I'm still in favour of attempting a 3.0 release as soon as humanly possible. My vote is for "after MoB and Coprocessor support" |
| 14:24:55 | elinenbe | Llorean: people are afraid of change. Once things settle down, everyone will be happier |
| 14:25:00 | elinenbe | what is MoB support? |
| 14:25:05 | Llorean | Metadata on Buffer |
| 14:25:06 | GodEater | MetdataOnBuffer |
| 14:25:14 | GodEater | curse your faster fingers Llorean |
| 14:25:18 | GodEater | you even got spaces in |
| 14:25:23 | preglow | rasher: of course it would, but we're not there |
| 14:25:26 | elinenbe | MoB should lead to supporting embedded art? |
| 14:25:32 | Llorean | Not necessarily embedded |
| 14:25:55 | Llorean | That might depend on how the discussion on 'jpeg in core' goes. |
| 14:26:06 | preglow | some time now we really need to start thinking about 3.0, though |
| 14:26:17 | preglow | if only to try |
| 14:26:23 | Llorean | preglow: Well, there is one thing we can do now. |
| 14:26:25 | rasher | preglow: I don't know. Simply releasing the current state (once voice has been sorted) as 2.6 would be preferable to the current situation, in my opinion |
| 14:26:39 | * | amiconn refines the unified voice file suggestion, and now suggests 2 voice files |
| 14:26:40 | Llorean | We can set up a "road to 3.0" |
| 14:26:51 | Llorean | A list of things that, when they're all done, we can enter 3.0 feature freeze. |
| 14:26:54 | pondlife | Llorean: Ovrereacting maybe a little, but it's very unpleasant when voice doesn't work reliably. I'd suggest we advise all blind users to stick to builds before the change (on the front page). |
| 14:27:04 | markun | Llorean: or clean up the old wiki page |
| 14:27:05 | preglow | Llorean: would as always be helpful |
| 14:27:07 | * | pondlife visits the typo class |
| 14:27:14 | pondlife | amiconn: 2? |
| 14:27:17 | amiconn | The mechanism allows a voice file to support an arbitrary subset of targets, as long as the clip format is the same |
| 14:27:25 | preglow | but i think 3.0 might be viable now that ipods are starting to shape up a bit |
| 14:27:32 | * | preglow has high hopes for amiconns work ;) |
| 14:27:36 | Llorean | preglow: I think with a list of things out there saying "We should get these done so we can freeze for 3.0", people might look in those directions a wee bit more |
| 14:27:44 | preglow | Llorean: and i agree |
| 14:27:53 | amiconn | For archos we want the clips preswapped, for swcodec they should be in normal bit order |
| 14:28:10 | pondlife | OK, so MASCODEC and SWCODEC |
| 14:28:18 | amiconn | So one voice file for archos, another for swcodec |
| 14:28:48 | amiconn | Actually it's not a hwcodec vs. swcodec issue, but due to the SH1 SPI and the MAS hookup |
| 14:28:56 | pondlife | Ah, ok |
| 14:29:08 | amiconn | AV300, while being hwcodec, will also use non-swapped clips |
| 14:29:24 | amiconn | (if that port ever gets done) |
| 14:30:02 | * | preglow has doubts :P |
| 14:30:14 | Llorean | What's the Rockbox 3.0 wiki page? |
| 14:30:30 | amiconn | Of course we could bitswap the clips on load and just use a single file, depending on how much perceived delay that produces |
| 14:30:33 | rasher | Llorean: ReleaseTodo? |
| 14:30:47 | Llorean | Ah, right |
| 14:30:58 | Llorean | So, should pre-freeze qualifiers go there to? |
| 14:31:01 | amiconn | On Ondio that wouldn't be a problem at all, but maybe on the disk based archoses |
| 14:31:49 | amiconn | Swapping 1MB takes ~1 second with my optimised bitswap |
| 14:32:09 | preglow | what would the nicest current non-iriver target be for recording? |
| 14:32:27 | Llorean | iAudio? |
| 14:32:27 | amiconn | There is no current target that can record afaik |
| 14:32:51 | Llorean | I mean, the Sansa can record, and some iPods have a line in. |
| 14:32:56 | amiconn | Hmm, wrong. The G5.5. can record |
| 14:33:08 | Llorean | The Sansa's rather limited in quality though, iiuc. |
| 14:33:09 | amiconn | Llorean: Yeah, but sansa recording is a joke imo |
| 14:33:21 | amiconn | Maximum sample rate of 24kHz |
| 14:33:45 | preglow | hrmph |
| 14:33:48 | preglow | so i'm stuck with irivers |
| 14:33:51 | Llorean | Well, it's designed for voice really. |
| 14:33:53 | preglow | i'll need to get another h1x0 |
| 14:34:00 | Llorean | Memos 'n such |
| 14:34:01 | preglow | this one is getting really, really scruffy looking |
| 14:34:11 | Llorean | preglow: Or start a new port. ;) |
| 14:34:22 | amiconn | The iAudios can record too, but for line you need the subpack, and gain range is way lower |
| 14:34:26 | DerPapst | laters... |
| 14:34:27 | | Quit DerPapst ("So Long And Thanks For All The Fish!") |
| 14:34:48 | preglow | Llorean: for what? :/ |
| 14:34:56 | amiconn | On the other hand, they are able to record with up to 96kHz |
| 14:35:02 | Llorean | preglow: Something that can record? |
| 14:35:05 | preglow | heh |
| 14:35:06 | pixelma | the H10 can record too, no? |
| 14:35:07 | Llorean | Get the iFP running! |
| 14:35:19 | preglow | i don't think i can maintain interest if i have to work on a port alone |
| 14:35:22 | amiconn | I doubt that the iFP can record |
| 14:35:22 | preglow | the ipod port was more than enough |
| 14:35:30 | Llorean | amiconn: It certainly can |
| 14:35:33 | Llorean | Line in and inbuilt mic. |
| 14:35:40 | amiconn | now, really |
| 14:35:57 | Llorean | I meant that the player is physically capable, I doubt it can in Rockbox. |
| 14:36:03 | amiconn | yeah |
| 14:36:05 | Llorean | I was suggesting Preglow finish it up for us. ;) |
| 14:36:10 | petur | preglow: there are some (3) iHP120 on ebay atm |
| 14:36:36 | preglow | petur: i want an h140 this time around |
| 14:36:47 | preglow | and i'm strapped for cash now anyway |
| 14:38:19 | rasher | Llorean: perhaps it's time for a round of release-talk on the -dev list? It's really awful that there hasn't been a release for any swcodec target yet. |
| 14:38:28 | preglow | yeah |
| 14:38:32 | preglow | it's very high time now |
| 14:38:34 | preglow | like it or not |
| 14:39:06 | preglow | i certainly don't like it, but it IS a shame we don't have a release |
| 14:39:22 | rasher | I'm more or less of the opinion that a rushed and buggy release is better than none, at this point. |
| 14:39:33 | preglow | just getting a wiki page up with stuff we (and other people) think we have to do might help organize a release very much |
| 14:39:47 | preglow | it's not like a release have to be bug-free |
| 14:39:51 | preglow | but the bugs should be documented |
| 14:39:55 | rasher | exactly |
| 14:40:20 | * | amiconn thinks that we're currently further away from a release than a year ago |
| 14:40:35 | preglow | amiconn: and i agree, but that doesn't change the fact that we now need one more than we did a year ago |
| 14:41:04 | * | GodEater goes to read up on voxin |
| 14:42:35 | Llorean | amiconn: I'm not sure if we're further than we were pre-freeze though |
| 14:42:48 | Llorean | We entered that freeze with some unnecessarily large things on the table |
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| 14:45:41 | | Quit My_Sic ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org") |
| 14:46:10 | preglow | i'm not convinced we'll fare much better this freeze either, but we pretty much have to try |
| 14:46:20 | preglow | not even _trying_ for a release around once a year or so is a shame |
| 14:46:36 | Llorean | Well this time the freeze should really be bugs-only |
| 14:46:41 | Llorean | Not "get these features done" |
| 14:46:42 | preglow | indeed |
| 14:47:05 | rasher | And at the end, release whatever you've got. |
| 14:47:07 | preglow | but why does my vinyl amp have so little treble :/ |
| 14:47:28 | preglow | rasher: i might agree with that |
| 14:47:41 | preglow | as long as nothing truly embarassing/disastrous is left |
| 14:47:52 | Llorean | Yeah, last time we had some considerable playback issues. |
| 14:47:53 | preglow | and at least now we have excellent installer tools |
| 14:48:30 | rasher | It's pretty much the only way a release will happen. And yes, disastrous will need to get fixed. But "high battery-consumption" or "sometimes freezes during playback" isn't disastrous. |
| 14:48:39 | preglow | rasher: agreed |
| 14:49:16 | Llorean | I don't think we need to release for iPods. |
| 14:49:19 | rasher | As long as it works most of the time, for most people and isn't actively dangerous for the rest, I'd say it's ready for release (not an optimal situation, of course). |
| 14:49:29 | preglow | Llorean: i don't think we _need_ to either, but i think we should |
| 14:49:33 | rasher | Llorean: I really don't see why not. |
| 14:49:51 | Llorean | rasher: Skippy playback when you use the equalizer, relatively terrible battery life? |
| 14:49:57 | Llorean | I'd like at least "features" to all work. |
| 14:50:08 | | Quit XavierGr (Nick collision from services.) |
| 14:50:09 | preglow | "skippy playback on eq" is hard to solve |
| 14:50:10 | | Join XavierGr_ [0] (n=xavier@ppp134-59.adsl.forthnet.gr) |
| 14:50:11 | Llorean | Maybe if coprocessor playback is done in time. |
| 14:50:13 | preglow | would put a release months back |
| 14:50:21 | preglow | but cop support is also going to put us months back |
| 14:50:23 | rasher | Llorean: Personally I don't think those things are important enough if documented. |
| 14:50:27 | preglow | it'll introduce tons of bugs, i can guarantee you that |
| 14:50:32 | Llorean | preglow: My understanding is actually that Cop support is fairly nearby right now |
| 14:50:40 | preglow | i can still guarantee you tons of bugs |
| 14:50:44 | preglow | i'll eat something nasty if that doesn't happen |
| 14:50:51 | preglow | and even take pictures |
| 14:50:58 | Llorean | rasher: But why "release" on the iPods that have poor battery life? |
| 14:51:03 | | Join Febs_ [0] (n=chatzill@38.98.196.75) |
| 14:51:04 | | Nick Febs_ is now known as Febs (n=chatzill@38.98.196.75) |
| 14:51:09 | preglow | hey, give amiconn some credit :P |
| 14:51:12 | preglow | that'll be solved in weeks now :P |
| 14:51:14 | Llorean | We have the H100, H300, X5, M5, and Gigabeat. |
| 14:51:36 | Llorean | I don't see why we "should" release on those targets. |
| 14:51:42 | rasher | Llorean: Because the ipods need a release as badly as the rest, if not more (considering it's the largest userbase by far) |
| 14:51:56 | Llorean | I don't understand what you mean by "need" a release. |
| 14:51:56 | preglow | but we should be a bit careful, though |
| 14:52:01 | preglow | a bad ipod release won't help us much |
| 14:52:07 | amiconn | Imo we could also release for 3rd gen, and perhaps 1st/2nd gen - if we want to release |
| 14:52:15 | Llorean | What you could do is issue a "Stable development build" for the iPod |
| 14:52:18 | GodEater | <devil's advocate> What is a "release" going to give the end user</devil's advocate> |
| 14:52:19 | preglow | amiconn: how is codec performance on those guys now? |
| 14:52:27 | Llorean | Paralleling the release, but making it absolutely clear it's not release-ready yet |
| 14:52:33 | amiconn | But that's also a bit tricky - even treble/bass can make medium bitrate oggs skip |
| 14:53:02 | amiconn | We can increase CPUFREQ_MAX to 90MHz - I think that's safe now that the extra power drain is solved |
| 14:53:11 | preglow | urgh |
| 14:53:13 | preglow | we need cop support :/ |
| 14:53:19 | amiconn | yes |
| 14:53:30 | rasher | GodEater: nothing tangible, and we know that. But users like releases. It gives them peace. |
| 14:53:44 | amiconn | The difference between playing mp3 at line level and playing mp3 with some treble/bass is clearly noticeable |
| 14:53:47 | pondlife | amiconn: Is it not the 75 -> 80 MHz increase that's upsetting Nano's (timing or heat, or whatever)? |
| 14:54:03 | amiconn | The latter increases buffering time _a lot_ |
| 14:54:07 | preglow | might be, the nano is pretty tightly packed |
| 14:54:10 | rasher | Besides, many users are pretty much expecting release-quality from the dev-builds right now anyway. Which is not acceptable either. |
| 14:54:12 | * | GodEater wonders how many end users will see the difference between a release and current build |
| 14:54:18 | amiconn | (but it doesn't skip with preset standard mp3) |
| 14:54:20 | preglow | rasher: and that is a good point, i think |
| 14:54:28 | preglow | a release will make it clear that dev builds are dev builds |
| 14:54:31 | markun | rasher: why not realease now then? |
| 14:54:40 | amiconn | pondlife: I doubt that. Then it wouldn't be a problem at boot |
| 14:54:41 | pondlife | Has anyone given a positive reason for a "release"? |
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| 14:54:57 | pondlife | As opoosed to "we should have one" |
| 14:55:03 | rasher | markun: personally I don't think it's such a stupid idea (except for the current voice issues which are fairly important) |
| 14:55:06 | JajaComp | Hello!!! |
| 14:55:18 | pondlife | Maybe before COP or MOB are integrated. |
| 14:55:29 | amiconn | pondlife: I guess its either ata timing, or something completely different on nano that I overlooked so far |
| 14:55:30 | pondlife | Those will both cause major bugginess I expect. |
| 14:55:35 | markun | JajaComp: managed to install the crosscompiler? |
| 14:55:53 | Llorean | rasher: Why not release for the good targets (the ones I listed) and a "Stable development snapshot" for the iPods, so it's clear it's not at the same level, but offers users a stationary version? |
| 14:55:53 | rasher | pondlife: Sounds likely. Is anything big on the table besides those two? |
| 14:55:57 | * | petur wonders why the hurry... |
| 14:56:03 | amiconn | I don't have a nano ROM dump |
| 14:56:07 | JajaComp | i compile RockBox, but when i reboot ipod see error message "bad chacksum"... whot is? |
| 14:56:16 | Llorean | amiconn: Want one? |
| 14:56:36 | preglow | petur: because we've been developing swcodec for years now with no release? |
| 14:56:38 | amiconn | Well, now that you can make one... yes |
| 14:56:39 | rasher | Llorean: Maybe we need to make clear some way that Ipods are second-class citizens right now. Naming the "release" something else might do it, I guess. |
| 14:56:49 | pondlife | preglow: Another year won't hurt, then ;p |
| 14:56:52 | preglow | haha |
| 14:56:59 | amiconn | rasher: It's not only ipods, also H10 |
| 14:57:08 | GodEater | and sansa |
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| 14:57:24 | rasher | amiconn: of course, yes. |
| 14:57:28 | amiconn | Sansa doesn't suffer that much regarding battery runtime |
| 14:57:37 | pondlife | Seriously, we are making decent progress at the moment, why stop for a freeze? Either immediately before or a while after MOB would be my choice. |
| 14:57:38 | petur | preglow: indeed, so what's the bit extra time going to make? And anyway, who is waiting for a release? I'd rather have some of current bugs fixed first... |
| 14:57:39 | Llorean | rasher: I think it's pretty important that you make it clear that they're second class. People don't read release notes, and might thing that the shortened battery life is "regular" |
| 14:57:51 | Llorean | rasher: I frequently see people explain it as 'Of course you get worse battery life... Rockbox does more' |
| 14:58:12 | JajaComp | what is error "BAD CHECHSUM"???? |
| 14:58:21 | GodEater | Llorean: well it cleans my fridge for me :) |
| 14:58:22 | pondlife | It would be better if the standard was "Rockbox extends your battery life". |
| 14:58:32 | markun | JajaComp: something wrong with your rockbox.ipod file |
| 14:58:37 | Llorean | amiconn: llorean.dyndns.org/rockbox/nano.bin">http://llorean.dyndns.org/rockbox/nano.bin |
| 14:58:46 | preglow | petur: me too, but with no release talk, there'll always be tons of new stuff thrown in that will forever make bugs |
| 14:58:46 | GodEater | JajaComp: possibly you built for the wrong target ? |
| 14:58:47 | amiconn | pondlife: It does that... just not on PP502x yet |
| 14:58:48 | rasher | Llorean: Fair enough, a differently-named release for the ipods+h10 is a good solution I think. |
| 14:58:56 | pondlife | amiconn: My point exactly. |
| 14:59:02 | amiconn | Llorean: 403 |
| 14:59:13 | amiconn | On PP5002 it does :P |
| 14:59:20 | pondlife | rasher: Or no release. |
| 14:59:21 | petur | preglow: feature freeze didn't help last time... |
| 14:59:22 | Llorean | pondlife: Which is why I suggest we only mark the Coldfires, Archoses, and Gigabeat as "Release", and the PortalPlayer as something second class, but "available" for use |
| 14:59:27 | Llorean | amiconn: Silly me |
| 14:59:45 | Llorean | I always forget that if I copy the file from this computer, I need to redo permissions |
| 14:59:59 | dionoea | "Bata" for second class (most people would understand what that means) |
| 15:00 |
| 15:00:03 | dionoea | Beta |
| 15:00:03 | Llorean | amiconn: Try again? |
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| 15:00:13 | GodEater | dionoea: I like "Bata" it's more original ;) |
| 15:00:18 | pondlife | I've still not heard a decent reason for any kind of release. "We're about to break music playback" is probably a good one, but would that need a branch too? |
| 15:00:19 | dionoea | :p |
| 15:00:43 | amiconn | Llorean: thx |
| 15:00:50 | Llorean | pondlife: I think a "release" will help people understand the current build should be considered "in-development" |
| 15:00:59 | rasher | pondlife: I really don't think the current situation is good. It makes users expect things of the svn builds that they shouldn't. An analogy would be firefox. People know not to expect release-quality from nightly builds, and most stick with the releases |
| 15:01:01 | Llorean | Specifically, that if they're updating constantly, they should expect things to change and possible break |
| 15:01:10 | petur | pondlife: maybe test a bit more before committing, then? |
| 15:01:16 | pondlife | lol |
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| 15:01:36 | Llorean | amiconn: I make no promises that it's any good. I can't assure my Nano's sanity. |
| 15:01:36 | preglow | petur: didn't help, no, but it might now, who knows |
| 15:01:43 | preglow | if we are to keep in pretending we do releases, we have to try doing some |
| 15:02:07 | pondlife | Many users would continue to update daily (or regularly) anyway, there's always new goodies. |
| 15:02:11 | rasher | petur: I don't think the mission now should be a bug-free release (as it was last time), but a release that doesn't kill anyone. |
| 15:02:19 | Llorean | preglow: Instead of "Releases" we could just have "Stability-enhanced Rockbox" with a 1-month feature freeze once a year for bug-focus. :-P |
| 15:02:30 | pondlife | "Rockbox - no longer fatal!" |
| 15:02:37 | preglow | hahaha |
| 15:02:43 | GodEater | heheh |
| 15:02:57 | amiconn | Llorean: At least it looks like a typical ipod rom dump |
| 15:02:58 | * | Llorean wants to know who to talk to about voice files having the wrong clips in them. |
| 15:03:02 | GodEater | pondlife: do you know of a case where rockbox has killed someone then ? :) |
| 15:03:02 | rasher | pondlife: but then they'd a) have a release to fall back to once they hit a bug. and b) know not to expect much |
| 15:03:04 | preglow | Rockbox - no broken ears in the default install for 1 year |
| 15:03:14 | Llorean | amiconn: Alright, good to hear. |
| 15:03:19 | pondlife | GodEater: Ask rasher ^^ |
| 15:03:49 | pondlife | "Rockbox - bricking iPods since 1995" |
| 15:04:05 | rasher | Llorean: I'm considering blaming genlang or perhaps voicefont |
| 15:04:36 | * | Nico_P is reading the logs but just wants to mention that a stable branch is far better than a feature freeze |
| 15:04:36 | Llorean | rasher: All I know is that if I build a Gigabeat voice, it seems fine, and if I build a Nano voice, it's got the wrong clips in several of the menus |
| 15:04:37 | markun | JajaComp: the compilation went fine and then you did "make zip" ? |
| 15:04:43 | pondlife | Maybe we just need to be able to mark particular daily builds as "good ones" ? |
| 15:04:58 | JajaComp | no |
| 15:05:00 | petur | pondlife: just thinking the same |
| 15:05:10 | markun | JajaComp: no to what? |
| 15:05:10 | pondlife | Not sure how we'd decide. Most are pretty good. |
| 15:05:18 | Nico_P | pondlife, petur: why not a stable branch ? |
| 15:05:33 | pondlife | More overhead. |
| 15:05:48 | pondlife | When time is limited, I'd rather not be administrating multiple branches. |
| 15:05:49 | petur | main brabnch should be stable |
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| 15:05:59 | * | petur joins typo class too |
| 15:06:01 | rasher | A lot more, and it'd quite likely be neglected as devs work on the dev branch |
| 15:06:13 | markun | JajaComp: maybe you should read the wiki again: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/HowToCompile |
| 15:06:21 | Llorean | I think a stable branch would just stagnate. |
| 15:06:32 | rasher | Same |
| 15:06:33 | Nico_P | rasher: I don't see how it could be wrose than the feature freeze |
| 15:06:33 | pondlife | We do need more bug fixing, but the main problem is that our current audio engine is not well structured and over delicate. |
| 15:06:59 | rasher | Nico_P: because it'll be lower priority as a branch, because you can keep working on the dev branch |
| 15:07:08 | pondlife | Currently only a few people can really fix the bugs (and I don't count myself in that group). |
| 15:07:24 | Nico_P | rasher: at least it's stable, so users who don't like change can rely on that |
| 15:07:27 | petur | honestly, here at work the checked in code should be well tested, because a snapshot can be taken at any time for testing+release. So why can't we keep up quality commits at Rockbox? |
| 15:07:28 | dionoea | What kind of files do you play to make it hang/crash? I play oggs all day long on my iPod video and i've never had any of those. |
| 15:07:30 | pondlife | "SWCODEC - kills developers, dead!" |
| 15:07:33 | * | GodEater suspects playback.c is pondlife's personal bugbear |
| 15:07:38 | amiconn | Llorean: I still think that the nano problems might have to do with ata timing, but the fact that just going back to 75MHz with the new code doesn't seem to help doesn't fit in well |
| 15:07:50 | pondlife | It is. Looks at the bugs in it. Race conditions all over the place! |
| 15:07:56 | GodEater | fix it |
| 15:07:59 | amiconn | However, the facf that the nano ata flash doesn't like going to sleep would support this theory |
| 15:08:02 | pondlife | No, it'll kill me. |
| 15:08:06 | GodEater | wuss |
| 15:08:11 | Nico_P | :p |
| 15:08:12 | pondlife | Like it did to poor lostlogic. |
| 15:08:18 | pondlife | I value my mind. |
| 15:08:21 | GodEater | re-write it |
| 15:08:25 | Nico_P | pondlife: btw, seen my latest work ? |
| 15:08:29 | Llorean | amiconn: What's interesting is that sometimes the music plays, but corrupted, and sometimes there's a crash, suggesting to me that the loaded data is being corrupted. Which would line with the ata issue, right? |
| 15:08:38 | amiconn | (after sleep it might come up in a slow pio mode, not being able to properly communicate with the ata controller) |
| 15:08:54 | pondlife | Nico_P: Not yet, no. As long as it's got structure and comments, I'm happy :) |
| 15:08:57 | leftright | because there is no current stable release everyone gets the latest because the assumption is that its better, then when theres a majpr issue you guys just say, "use a previous that works", as long as you dont have a stable release folks will always think that the recent current is the best and most stable |
| 15:09:13 | pondlife | leftright: Generally the most recent is best. |
| 15:09:15 | amiconn | We had a similar effect on archos with some old HDD models iirc |
| 15:09:15 | Llorean | leftright: The vast, vast majority of the time it is the most stable. |
| 15:09:21 | amiconn | LinusN should know |
| 15:09:24 | Nico_P | pondlife: http://repo.or.cz/w/Rockbox-MoB.git?a=shortlog;h=no_rb_in_rb ... heopfully you'll be happy |
| 15:09:24 | pondlife | The recent voice stuff is an exception. |
| 15:09:56 | amiconn | leftright: The most recent is almost always the best choice |
| 15:09:58 | Llorean | The recent voice stuff isn't really a case of stability. It's a case of "it took a few days to finish working on it" |
| 15:10:03 | markun | leftright: would you prefer to use an older version of rockbox? |
| 15:10:04 | pondlife | Exactly |
| 15:10:18 | leftright | if it works well why not |
| 15:10:20 | amiconn | Even 2.5 for archos has some major bugs which are fixed in svn |
| 15:10:23 | Llorean | Sometimes things just simply don't become apparent until you go live. |
| 15:10:39 | pondlife | Maybe we need a system where users can rate a particular daily build out of 10..? |
| 15:10:55 | markun | leftright: then you could also just not update rockbox if it runs well |
| 15:10:59 | leftright | then you need a different policy/method for dealing with major changes |
| 15:11:10 | markun | ah ok |
| 15:11:26 | markun | just release if there are major changes and it's stable |
| 15:11:28 | markun | makes sense |
| 15:11:34 | Llorean | leftright: Anyone updating their daily build regularly instead of picking one and sticking with it should consider themselves a tester. |
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| 15:12:02 | rasher | Llorean: But they don't, unless they know that there are "releases" or something like it. |
| 15:12:24 | Llorean | rasher: Partially because they don't read the manual, and partially yes because we don't have a clear release version |
| 15:13:33 | leftright | markun: exactly, when instituting a major change only release it when its stable |
| 15:13:41 | rasher | You shouldn't expect users to read the manual. It's a given that the mast maority of users won't read more than what's needed to get running. |
| 15:13:44 | preglow | petur: even a 60 dB gain sounds perfectly ok :P |
| 15:14:21 | Llorean | leftright: We haven't released it. |
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| 15:15:00 | Llorean | rasher: If we have a release version, it'll just mean we get a new type of confused-user question. |
| 15:15:06 | leftright | release is perhaps incorrect with your current method, perhaps not make it available to the public is better |
| 15:15:13 | Llorean | rasher: Such as "I heard Rockbox could play NES games, I downloaded the latest release but it doesn't" or whatnot |
| 15:15:56 | Llorean | leftright: So, password-protect the build page any time there's a major change so that only people we consider "testers" can get to it, thus decreasing the likelihood of people finding bugs? |
| 15:15:56 | rasher | Llorean: I think it's more manageble "It's under development and will be availble in the next release, or right now, if you install a *development build*" |
| 15:16:04 | * | amiconn leaves for a while |
| 15:16:21 | leftright | making buggy builds availbe to the public is not a good idea |
| 15:16:42 | * | dionoea agrees with rasher. That's what most other software projects do anyway. |
| 15:16:50 | leftright | or rather super bugy builds |
| 15:16:56 | rasher | leftright: Making buggy builds available is not the problem. The problem is that it's not apparent that they may be buggy |
| 15:17:09 | Llorean | leftright: How the hell are people supposed to test development versions if they're not made available? |
| 15:17:20 | Llorean | The problem isn't that the build's there. The problem is that people don't clearly know it's in-development |
| 15:17:21 | rasher | leftright: At least to the casual user who doesn't understand how development works |
| 15:17:40 | leftright | not all folks want to debug your software, they just want something that works |
| 15:17:53 | markun | but we DO want them to debug it :) |
| 15:17:54 | Llorean | Then they should use the retail firmware, or wait for release versions. |
| 15:18:05 | Febs | Or find a version that works and stick with it. |
| 15:18:10 | Llorean | If they're unwilling to accept the terms upon which the software is currently offered, they don't have to accept them. |
| 15:18:19 | markun | Febs: which could be called a stable release |
| 15:18:28 | Febs | Ideally, yes. |
| 15:18:44 | Llorean | I think at least a semi-stable release should be tried for soon (before the end of the year) |
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| 15:18:55 | bluebrother | maybe we should rename the "current build" to "development build"? |
| 15:19:02 | leftright | or tag the currents as unstable somehow |
| 15:19:11 | GodEater | bluebrother: that's a very good idea |
| 15:19:12 | bluebrother | and "archived build" to "archived development build"? |
| 15:19:21 | markun | leftright: but it's usually not that unstable |
| 15:19:22 | rasher | But when it's the only thing available, people won't have anything else to pick from |
| 15:19:34 | Febs | markun: but right now, a build may work perfectly for someone and yet still have bugs affecting features that person doesn't use. |
| 15:19:50 | bluebrother | display a splash message when no user cfg is present: this is a development version, use at your own risk |
| 15:19:52 | Llorean | leftright: "The current build is built at each source code change to the Rockbox SVN repository, and represent the current state of Rockbox development. This means that the build could contain bugs, but is most of the time safe to use." |
| 15:19:53 | leftright | but every now and then the wheels fall off, so you need to advise the foks about that somehow |
| 15:20:15 | rasher | The problem is that the current build is *all* we offer to most users |
| 15:20:16 | bluebrother | or something similar ... the only problem is that this will increase binary size for no functional benefit. |
| 15:20:39 | leftright | flag the table somehow |
| 15:20:54 | rasher | So they see it as the regular build in spite of the warnings |
| 15:21:10 | bluebrother | add a big red blinking "warning, you are looking at unreleased stuff" at the page? ;-) |
| 15:21:20 | Llorean | rasher: Well, if more users contributed proper bug reports and tested them, we might advance toward a stable version more quickly |
| 15:21:28 | Llorean | I mean, it's a two-way street, 'n all. |
| 15:21:33 | Febs | I think that it is a reasonable suggestion to send announcements to the user list when major changes are implemented. |
| 15:21:48 | Febs | And also post in the "Announcements" forum. |
| 15:21:58 | markun | bluebrother: but having to wait for years for a stable release while many 'unstable' builds have worked fine for many users is also a bit unfair |
| 15:22:00 | rasher | Febs: true. This should happen whenever something major happens |
| 15:22:22 | bluebrother | we could also add information about which player has a release on the front page. |
| 15:22:48 | Llorean | I don't see why major changes need to be replicated in several places. |
| 15:22:49 | bluebrother | as the current list somewhat implies that all players are "done", and "additional models are in development" |
| 15:23:02 | Llorean | Invariably someone will forget one, or multiple, of the places. |
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| 15:23:27 | rasher | Llorean: then have a few people responsible for putting out such warnings |
| 15:23:29 | bluebrother | markun: I never said users should wait for years for a stable release −− they just should be aware about the not-yet-released state |
| 15:23:38 | Llorean | rasher: Why can't people read the MajorChanges page? |
| 15:23:39 | leftright | some targets are more mature than others, right now the assumption by joe soap is that build table is green so all is good |
| 15:24:17 | GodEater | Soap knows the score! |
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| 15:24:42 | rasher | Llorean: that page is very brief, and don't really explain in detail what happened. Besides, it doesn't give a warning in advance. |
| 15:24:43 | bluebrother | hmm, is there a way to export the MajorChanges page to simply html / txt? We could display that information in rbutil |
| 15:25:36 | preglow | have anyone seen the german rockbox article someone posted about? |
| 15:25:59 | rasher | bluebrother: Certainly a page on rockbox.org could parse majorchanges and output it in a "clean" way |
| 15:25:59 | leftright | Llorean, people will only read docs if they abosolutely have to, its a very frustrating humsn trait, folks want to click and everything must just work, they dont understand development work |
| 15:26:17 | Llorean | leftright: Then tell them to stop updating. |
| 15:26:18 | rasher | bluebrother: the wiki markup is there for the server to parse afterall |
| 15:26:48 | markun | preglow: which one? |
| 15:26:52 | Llorean | rasher: Well there's also always the changelog. I just don't see why people should be expected to write explanations of everything they do. |
| 15:26:54 | leftright | I would, but to what build do i point them to |
| 15:27:09 | Llorean | rasher: I think it's the user's responsibility to know what they're downloading, otherwise people will get even more upset the one time someone forgets to do so. |
| 15:27:14 | Febs | Llorean: or simply advise them when there is a major change so that they don't update then if they don't want to . "We have made a major change today. You may experience instability with current builds, or feature X may not work as it has in the past." Then people can decide for themselves whether to update. |
| 15:27:24 | Llorean | leftright: Tell them to find one that works for themselves, and stick with it? |
| 15:27:46 | Febs | But at least they're put on notice that there has been a major change. |
| 15:27:48 | preglow | markun: pc magazin |
| 15:27:54 | | Quit pondlife (Nick collision from services.) |
| 15:27:56 | Llorean | Febs: Again the problem with people then growing to expect that if they haven't been told "expect instability" then there will be none. |
| 15:28:00 | rasher | Llorean: you're expecting too much of the users. In the end, we want to make it easier for them. If not because we're nice, then because it makes our lives easier as well. |
| 15:28:15 | Llorean | Febs: I think it's better to nurture a knowledge that *all* development builds can be expected to be unstable. |
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| 15:28:56 | Llorean | rasher: Then why not get a release put up, and tell people who want stability to stick with it until the next release, rather than creating a false sense of security by randomly warning about instability sometimes, and completely missing it other times? |
| 15:29:01 | Febs | Llorean: of course. But that doesn't mean that we can't advise of major changes when we *know* that there will be a higher likelihood of instability, or at the very least a change from what they've become accustomed to. |
| 15:29:16 | Llorean | Febs: Changes from what they become accustomed to, sure. |
| 15:29:32 | leftright | you will be saving yourselves major headaches by having a stable build somewhere that you can point to |
| 15:29:34 | Llorean | And "there is a near certainty X will be broken for at least the next few builds" makes sense to. |
| 15:29:47 | rasher | Llorean: I'm saying we should do both. Once the releases are there, missing a "new feature" announcement isn't as big a problem, because people will know they are dev builds. |
| 15:29:49 | Llorean | leftright: Feel free to start fixing bugs for a release then. I look forward to seeing them start vanishing from the tracker. |
| 15:30:02 | leftright | not a release, a stable build |
| 15:30:04 | * | GodEater thinks no-one will use a stable build, and everyone will still keep using the current one |
| 15:30:13 | Llorean | leftright: Okay, either way, bugs need to be fixed |
| 15:30:33 | Llorean | Febs: I think people using the development version can subscribe to the developer list. |
| 15:30:35 | rasher | GodEater: but it'd make things a lot simpler. "Use the stable build if you just want something that works" |
| 15:30:46 | Llorean | Febs: I see no problem with sending out a message on the dev-list warning of upcoming large patches, we do that anyway most times. |
| 15:31:04 | markun | GodEater: depends on how ofter we release I think |
| 15:31:08 | markun | often |
| 15:31:16 | Febs | There's no reason such an announcement couldn't be sent to the user list. |
| 15:31:43 | morrijr | or have an announcement list just for err, announcements :) |
| 15:32:13 | pondlife | The user ML is a bit underused, aside from the blind community. |
| 15:32:14 | Llorean | Febs: I think it is better if it's just for the dev list, though, to keep it clear that what you're doing is participating in development |
| 15:32:23 | Llorean | Febs: It's part of the whole "testers" vs "users" concept. |
| 15:32:23 | Febs | I disagree. |
| 15:32:36 | pondlife | All users are testers, no? |
| 15:32:39 | Febs | By that logic, there should be no user list right now except for v2.5. |
| 15:32:41 | rasher | Llorean: depends how you're wording the mail, in my opinion |
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| 15:32:54 | * | GodEater agrees with Febs |
| 15:32:56 | leftright | some people dont want to be testers, they want smething that works |
| 15:33:01 | rasher | pondlife: as things stand now, yes. But some users don't know it, or dont want to be testers. |
| 15:33:04 | pondlife | Well, OF normally works. |
| 15:33:06 | pondlife | :) |
| 15:33:10 | Llorean | Febs: I'm basing my statements on the assumption that we're going to try to have a release. |
| 15:33:17 | Llorean | Or regular releases even. |
| 15:33:27 | pondlife | rasher: OK we need more warnings before they download maybe? |
| 15:33:39 | Llorean | We don't need to be suggesting to people that these are "Updates", but rather "Patches being rolled out for testing" |
| 15:33:47 | Llorean | And I think that's very definitely a "Development" topic. |
| 15:33:52 | rasher | pondlife: Won't work as long as they have to download that build anyway. |
| 15:34:17 | Llorean | leftright: People who don't want to be testers need to wait to download Rockbox until a release happens. |
| 15:34:34 | leftright | yes but when |
| 15:34:38 | pondlife | I don't see the point in having releases unless we also branch and fix them - and I'm not in favour of doing that at all. |
| 15:34:44 | Llorean | leftright: How long will it take you to make Rockbox stable? |
| 15:34:56 | rasher | pondlife: with freezes prior to release, that's effectively the same |
| 15:35:06 | Llorean | leftright: Saying "Rockbox needs to have a release" is all well and good, but you and others need to work on it. |
| 15:35:13 | GodEater | rasher: no it's not - what about fixes post release? |
| 15:35:14 | pondlife | rasher: No, because the more serious bugs never get fixed. |
| 15:35:27 | * | GodEater high fives pondlife |
| 15:35:31 | Llorean | pondlife: That's why you need a pre-freeze checklist. |
| 15:35:47 | Llorean | pondlife: Things that need to be done before a freeze can be entered, so it's hanging over everyone's head. |
| 15:35:53 | | Quit daurnimator (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 15:35:55 | GodEater | that still doesn't help |
| 15:35:56 | rasher | GodEater: the assumption is that any bugs left in the release is not serious enough that people can't wait for the next release |
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| 15:36:10 | leftright | Llorean: I'm not saying a release, to help the user and make your life easier you should always have a "Stable Build" that you can refer people to |
| 15:36:13 | GodEater | that's an awfully big assumption |
| 15:36:25 | GodEater | leftright: that's the same thing with a different name |
| 15:36:33 | Llorean | leftright: Alright, so either tell me which build is that stable build, or get to work eliminating bugs until there's a stable enough one |
| 15:36:36 | dionoea | s/bugs/known bugs/ ? |
| 15:36:36 | pondlife | Llorean: I would love a stable release, but do we have people who are interested in that and have the time needed to understand the problems and fix them, within a reasonable period? |
| 15:36:42 | Llorean | leftright: Producing a stable build is the same problem as producing a release. |
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| 15:36:50 | dionoea | and then you'd have a stable branch where you only fix bugs (and not add features) |
| 15:36:52 | rasher | GodEater: I don't think so. Any bugs so major that it absolutely needs a fix can't hide for weeks without being hit. |
| 15:37:10 | leftright | with software there is only more stable and less stable |
| 15:37:12 | GodEater | so what about the bugs still in 2.5 ? |
| 15:37:20 | Llorean | pondlife: Depends both on the level of stability you define as a release, and on whether you decide you want "A release by X date" or "A feature freeze of X days *after* these key bugs and features are resolved" |
| 15:37:26 | rasher | GodEater: That's a different situation, since it's so old now. |
| 15:37:39 | preglow | anyone know what the impedance of the h120 input is? :> |
| 15:37:41 | GodEater | rasher: but we'd still end up in the same situation with any release we made now |
| 15:37:43 | pondlife | Llorean: It would have to be the latter IMHO |
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| 15:37:57 | Llorean | pondlife: That's what I've been advocating since about the day the 3.0 feature freeze was cancelled. |
| 15:38:05 | GodEater | IMO to do a release properly you MUST branch |
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| 15:38:08 | pondlife | Stability level - doesn't need the pin to reset it once a week. |
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| 15:38:21 | pondlife | Once a month is ok :) |
| 15:38:22 | Llorean | leftright: Yes, so someone needs to work on making Rockbox more stable. |
| 15:38:48 | leftright | uhuh, but you wont get that if you add new feautres all the time |
| 15:39:07 | rasher | GodEater: the 2.5 situation is entirely different, and can't be compared to a new release, because the new release should come with a promise of a next release as well. |
| 15:39:13 | bluebrother | hmm. How about a bugfixing month? |
| 15:39:17 | GodEater | just like 2.5 did.... |
| 15:39:35 | Llorean | bluebrother: Major new features need to be either finished, or put on hold before first commit, before that can happen |
| 15:39:48 | pondlife | I think we need to work on spreading the knowledge about how lower-level stuff works. Rockbox cross-training.... |
| 15:40:11 | bluebrother | sure ... but such a period could be used to stabilize and fix bugs in the current state |
| 15:40:18 | Llorean | leftright: Just because features are being added doesn't mean you can't fix bugs. |
| 15:40:24 | bluebrother | you need to have some kind of feature freeze of course |
| 15:40:29 | Llorean | leftright: But yes, a feature freeze will be necessary at some point. |
| 15:40:31 | GodEater | branching at each release doesn't lose us anything, and it saves us headaches if we don't / can't stick to some intended release schedule |
| 15:41:06 | bluebrother | branching after the release has finished or before it? |
| 15:41:09 | rasher | GodEater: if you mean branching and then working on in the dev branch, I think that's a very bad idea. If you mean "feature freeze, release, then branch" |
| 15:41:16 | GodEater | bluebrother: at the point of release |
| 15:41:21 | rasher | GodEater: then I'm all for it, to give the possibility of backporting fixes. |
| 15:41:23 | dionoea | you usually branch before the release hits final |
| 15:41:28 | rasher | GodEater: then I think we agree anyway |
| 15:41:32 | dionoea | else people can't work on new features anymore |
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| 15:41:41 | dionoea | and that just slows down the dev process |
| 15:41:42 | GodEater | rasher: your second example, not the first |
| 15:41:46 | GodEater | the first would be silly |
| 15:41:53 | dionoea | you can't force people to only do bugfixing |
| 15:41:58 | bluebrother | so you will have a branch wich will only get used for fixes after the release has made? Maybe. |
| 15:42:03 | rasher | GodEater: it's not unheard of to let development continue during a freeze |
| 15:42:04 | GodEater | correct |
| 15:42:12 | rasher | GodEater: but I don't think it'd work well for Rockbox |
| 15:42:16 | GodEater | rasher: then have multiple branches |
| 15:42:18 | pondlife | Freeze, then release/branch. |
| 15:42:28 | Llorean | dionoea: But you can force people not to commit any new features in the hopes that they'll do bugfixing. |
| 15:42:30 | GodEater | one at feature freeze start, and one at release, and keep a dev branch |
| 15:42:32 | rasher | pondlife: sounds reasonable. Release and branch happens at the same time |
| 15:42:41 | pondlife | GodEater: No, only one current and one stable branch. |
| 15:42:47 | leftright | features and improvements will always happen with software, but you need to develop a system where, a stable release will only be released to the public after a new feature which has been incorporated is stable |
| 15:42:47 | GodEater | pondlife: why ? |
| 15:43:03 | rasher | GodEater: I don't think you should keep a dev branch open during the freeze. It takes a lot away from the point of the freeze |
| 15:43:09 | Llorean | leftright: Yes, that's called "release versions" or "stable versions" and we've covered that. |
| 15:43:12 | dionoea | Llorean: and then you end up freezing most work on trunk for months at a time. (at least that's what happened for VLC before we decided to have a stable branch) |
| 15:43:18 | Nico_P | a typical pattern is to have a stable branch from which releases come from |
| 15:43:22 | pondlife | Will anyone fix bugs at all? The more branches, the more dilution of our Rockbox time. |
| 15:43:24 | Nico_P | I don't see why we couldn't do that |
| 15:43:47 | Llorean | dionoea: If the dev branch is kept open during the freeze, a large majority of people will just continue working on it. |
| 15:43:50 | rasher | If you branch at the point of the release, you lose nothing, but gain the possibility to backport fixes (easily) |
| 15:43:51 | GodEater | rasher: well that's the only way I can see to be tidy about allowing dev to continue during a freeze |
| 15:44:02 | * | pondlife assumes that the stable branch will only be worked on while there's no fun elsewhere. |
| 15:44:11 | Llorean | dionoea: Even when we didn't have a dev-branch, and froze for bugfixes last time, we never reached 'stable' because everyone kept working on their own thing, and asking us to end the freeze so they could commit |
| 15:44:25 | pondlife | GodEater: Dev does continue, fixing bugs! |
| 15:44:26 | leftright | Pondlife: will anyone fix bugs at all...... does anyone have pride in their work, |
| 15:44:26 | dionoea | which is exactly why you need a stable branch |
| 15:44:33 | Nico_P | Llorean: that was because of the lack of branches |
| 15:44:41 | dionoea | so fixes can get commited on that branch but not the new features |
| 15:44:43 | Llorean | Nico_P: How can we have a stable branch until we *get* stable? |
| 15:44:52 | petur | we need another tracker cleaning week, and focus on the bugreports... |
| 15:44:57 | Nico_P | Llorean: with branches people have a choice: fix bugs or work on new features... hopefully they'll do a bit of both |
| 15:45:05 | rasher | GodEater: I don't want to allow dev to continue during a freeze. I'm expecting devs to fix bugs and work on features locally, and as a secondary thing. Of course this doesn't work if the freeze is several months. It needs to be no more than a month I think. |
| 15:45:14 | Nico_P | Llorean: we branch and then stabilize |
| 15:45:22 | Nico_P | by not adding too much new features |
| 15:45:25 | dionoea | Llorean: stable branch basically means "don't commit new features(aka bugs) here" |
| 15:45:32 | pondlife | No, stabilize first, so both branches benefit. |
| 15:45:35 | GodEater | rasher: so let the devs manage their own local branches |
| 15:45:50 | rasher | GodEater: exactly. No official dev branch during the freeze. |
| 15:45:51 | pondlife | Fix/freeze for a month, then branch/release. |
| 15:45:57 | dionoea | pondlife: you usually fix bugs in trunk and backport to the stable branch |
| 15:46:01 | * | GodEater has got too used to the git mindset already |
| 15:46:07 | dionoea | (unless the stable branch and trunk are too far appart) |
| 15:46:08 | Llorean | dionoea: If that happens, very little work will ever focus on the stable branch. |
| 15:46:18 | Nico_P | Llorean: I'm not sure about that |
| 15:46:20 | petur | How about: please test better before committing? |
| 15:46:22 | dionoea | very little is better than none IMO |
| 15:46:22 | Llorean | dionoea: I suspect the "too far apart" will happen, and then most people "won't have the time" |
| 15:46:29 | markun | GodEater: I'm getting used to it myself :) But don't actually use git yet |
| 15:46:32 | leftright | during all feature freezes, its a tiny handfull of dev's that rool their sleeves up and fix others bugs |
| 15:46:44 | GodEater | Llorean: but NOT doing it means you can't make any fixes at all to the "stable" code |
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| 15:46:49 | rasher | petur: it's a nice thought, but in practice you can't beat the testing of all users. |
| 15:46:54 | pondlife | petur: The main problems are more fundamental, and in old code... |
| 15:47:01 | dionoea | Llorean: and the few times i've experienced that method it worked really well |
| 15:47:10 | GodEater | markun: I used it properly all the way through developing my shortcuts plugin |
| 15:47:12 | GodEater | it was great! |
| 15:47:15 | dionoea | better than just freezing the main dev tree |
| 15:47:19 | Nico_P | Llorean: dionoea's right, it works for many projetcs |
| 15:47:21 | Llorean | GodEater: I'd much rather a stability-only (no features at all) push for a period (1month? 2months?) *then* a branch, whether we release or not |
| 15:47:39 | Llorean | A kick-start as it were. |
| 15:47:44 | GodEater | Llorean: that would be nice - but it's not gonna happen ;) |
| 15:47:46 | * | Nico_P has been reading Karl Fogel's "Producing OSS" :) |
| 15:48:04 | Llorean | Nico_P: The only thing that really ruined our feature freeze last time was that it wasn't a feature freeze. |
| 15:48:15 | Llorean | It involved the addition of "Database" and the attempted playback engine rewrite. |
| 15:48:15 | leftright | there seems to be a fundamental problem where programmers push products "over the wall" which aren't ready and expect others to do the dirty works of debugging xyz |
| 15:48:19 | markun | Nico_P: don't give away the ending yet, it's too much fun to figure it out on our own |
| 15:48:28 | Llorean | Without either of those, there's a decent chance we'd have a 3.0 out for a year now |
| 15:48:50 | Llorean | leftright: 1) This is open source. 2) No "product" has been "pushed" |
| 15:48:52 | GodEater | leftright: until you become a dev, you don't get to complain |
| 15:48:56 | pondlife | leftright: I don't think there's too much of that here. |
| 15:49:07 | Nico_P | Llorean: the playback rewrite was necessary for the release |
| 15:49:13 | Llorean | Nico_P: No, it really wasn't. |
| 15:49:19 | Llorean | It was wanted for the release, which is different. |
| 15:49:29 | pondlife | Which release? Last year's non-release? |
| 15:49:31 | Llorean | Yeah |
| 15:49:43 | pondlife | Yep, playback suffered through that a bit. |
| 15:49:46 | markun | only 1 year ago? Looks like much longer |
| 15:49:48 | rasher | There were problems with the old playback engine, but they were mostly known, and could be released with known bugs. |
| 15:50:02 | rasher | s/with/as/ |
| 15:50:05 | Llorean | markun: Actually it's nearly two, I think |
| 15:50:17 | pondlife | Time flies when you're debugging playback.c... |
| 15:50:20 | Llorean | rasher: Or just those bugs could've been mitigated or worked around for the release |
| 15:50:54 | Llorean | Even if it was a dirty hack just to make it seem to work right, from a user perspective it would've worked. |
| 15:51:00 | Nico_P | http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/ReleaseTodo... it was planned for 1st May 2006 |
| 15:51:55 | Nico_P | anyway I think we desperately need branches |
| 15:52:24 | Nico_P | at least a stable one from which users can expect minimum reliability |
| 15:52:29 | pondlife | Currently there are 39 music playback bugs... some of which are not really playback bugs, but most of which are non-trivial to fix properly. |
| 15:52:56 | Llorean | Nico_P: As I said, I've nothing against a stable branch, but I think a hard freeze should happen first in an effort to get as much fixed for that branch as possible. |
| 15:53:07 | rasher | There's no one saying a release has to have 0 bugs, or even close. |
| 15:53:17 | rasher | Even known bugs. |
| 15:53:18 | GodEater | that be insanely unrealistic |
| 15:53:28 | JdGordon | Nico_P: maximum reliability from stable branhc you mean.... |
| 15:53:46 | Nico_P | JdGordon: I meant "a minimum level of reliability" |
| 15:53:55 | Llorean | JdGordon: I think he means "there's a certain minimum level that reliability never dips under" |
| 15:54:07 | * | JdGordon tired and confused |
| 15:54:12 | pondlife | No, but known issues such as "Starting playback directly after a recording ends in a data abort." are a bit off. |
| 15:54:26 | GodEater | pondlife: fix it!!! |
| 15:54:33 | pondlife | I don't have an iPod... |
| 15:54:41 | Nico_P | we also need to use flyspray's release management features better |
| 15:54:50 | pondlife | jhMiksS knows the cause though... |
| 15:54:54 | rasher | pondlife: but if it's not easily fixed, I don't think it should hold up a release |
| 15:55:08 | pondlife | That was just one (maybe not great) example... |
| 15:55:21 | Nico_P | rasher: agreeed, but a workaround should be implemented |
| 15:55:46 | | Part leftright |
| 15:55:49 | JdGordon | workarounds are bad |
| 15:55:54 | pondlife | "Bug fixing fortnight" should happen, certainly. |
| 15:55:56 | Llorean | JdGordon: Not for "release versions" |
| 15:55:56 | Nico_P | ...better than nothing |
| 15:56:08 | Llorean | If it's a release version, the key is *working* not elegance in code. |
| 15:56:15 | Llorean | You can revert all the nasty hacks right out immediately after if you must. |
| 15:56:19 | JdGordon | not really.. it means that the bug appears fixed and is ussually forgotten about |
| 15:56:28 | Llorean | JdGordon: That's why you revert the hacks |
| 15:56:34 | pondlife | Hacks upon hacks.... |
| 15:56:43 | JdGordon | _if_ you can be bothered and remember about them |
| 15:56:45 | rasher | Actually, that's why you put the hacks in the stable branch, and fix it properly in the dev branch |
| 15:56:47 | JdGordon | s/you/someone |
| 15:56:48 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 15:56:54 | Llorean | rasher: Same thing. |
| 15:56:57 | Nico_P | Llorean: actually you don't revert the workarounds, you commit them in the release branch :) |
| 15:57:08 | pondlife | Hah, hacks leading to stabliity...whatever next. |
| 15:57:08 | Llorean | Nico_P: Yes, yes. I was simplifying the situation. :-P |
| 15:57:19 | Llorean | Hacks can lead to stability. |
| 15:57:25 | Llorean | Maybe at a loss of performance, or maintainability though |
| 15:57:27 | JdGordon | hmm.... this starts to sound ok |
| 15:57:50 | bluebrother | loss of maintainability? |
| 15:57:55 | Llorean | But as far as I'm concerned, with a "release" or "stable" version, you concern yourself with what the user sees, not what coders see. |
| 15:58:02 | JdGordon | who decides when to update the stable branch? |
| 15:58:03 | bluebrother | I don't think that would be a reasonable price. |
| 15:58:04 | Llorean | bluebrother: Harder to fix the code later if something new goes wrong. |
| 15:58:10 | rasher | bluebrother: not as important if it's in the stable branch |
| 15:58:21 | Llorean | bluebrother: The whole point is that they aren't left in the "real" code. They're only there for the user-version. |
| 15:58:29 | Nico_P | JdGordon: maybe a kind of approval would be needed for makor changes to go in the stable branch |
| 15:58:37 | Nico_P | and thourough testing |
| 15:58:49 | JdGordon | so /me would never commit to that branch :p |
| 15:58:53 | pondlife | Would users use the stable branch? It seems there are plenty who choose a custom build rather than SVN as it is. |
| 15:58:56 | rasher | Nico_P: I'm still of the opinion that the stable branch should be branched from the dev branch once in a while |
| 15:59:10 | bluebrother | wouldn't a freeze period which is only used to fix bugs help development as well? |
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| 15:59:15 | pondlife | Yes |
| 15:59:16 | JdGordon | rasher: multiple stable brnaches? |
| 15:59:25 | rasher | JdGordon: well, then you close the old stable branch |
| 15:59:34 | pondlife | Only the most recent would get any fixes, I suspect. |
| 15:59:40 | Nico_P | rasher: I don't hink so, but the stable branch would need to stay in sync |
| 15:59:41 | JdGordon | rasher: whats to say the new stable is actually more stable than the old one? |
| 15:59:47 | bluebrother | afterwards there could be a (of the nearly-release state) branch and include only workarounds for known bugs |
| 16:00 |
| 16:00:27 | JdGordon | if we had branches, we should have a fair few... how about an AA branch? and a custom list position/scroll/width branch? |
| 16:00:27 | rasher | JdGordon: there's no guarantee, but you freeze and branch to attempt to avoid it |
| 16:01:08 | | Join low_light [0] (i=c730180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-b7b25452b235be84) |
| 16:01:12 | * | Febs runs screaming from the support morass that so many branches would become. |
| 16:01:18 | Llorean | JdGordon: Why not just have that code be finished in a commitable manner? |
| 16:01:23 | Llorean | I think three branches is good. |
| 16:01:31 | Llorean | Old-stable, New-stable, and Dev |
| 16:01:57 | Llorean | New-stable only existing if for some reason Old-stable becomes unmaintainable, and then old-stable is closed once the new-stable is deemed "good enough) |
| 16:02:12 | Llorean | unmaintainable == some change is too difficult to sync |
| 16:02:16 | | Join Dylan7262 [0] (i=7cbaf29e@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-c880eac559b47284) |
| 16:02:29 | Dylan7262 | Hey people |
| 16:02:49 | Nico_P | Llorean: Dev == trunk, and stable branches could actually be release branches |
| 16:02:50 | Dylan7262 | just wondering if someone can help me please? i have a 5th gen iPod video |
| 16:03:02 | Llorean | Nico_P: Yes, dev == trunk. |
| 16:03:16 | Llorean | Nico_P: I guess in my head, trunk is arguably still a branch in a manner of speaking. |
| 16:03:17 | JdGordon | well, branches are cheap arnt they? why not allow everyone to create branches for their vairous WIP's? (everyone is obviously the current commiters.. not literally everyone) |
| 16:03:28 | pondlife | We only need to maintain one stable release, right? |
| 16:03:52 | bluebrother | everyonce can setup his personal branch at home ... |
| 16:03:53 | Llorean | pondlife: Yes, but if you can't sync it for some reason, then you need a place that's not trunk, but also not that, to work on getting a new stable release rolling along. |
| 16:03:53 | Nico_P | the stable branch I was mentioning should be somthing like "release_3.0.x" |
| 16:03:57 | bluebrother | just think of git-svn |
| 16:04:03 | pondlife | Llorean: Sync it? |
| 16:04:14 | bluebrother | branches are cheap, but merges? |
| 16:04:20 | Nico_P | JdGordon: us git fot that |
| 16:04:27 | Llorean | pondlife: If some significant bug-fix or stability enhancement in trunk can't be backported effectively, and it's decided that it's better to re-branch. |
| 16:04:31 | Nico_P | bluebrother: merges are not so cheap in SVN |
| 16:04:33 | pondlife | I assumed that it would be feature-frozen. |
| 16:04:43 | bluebrother | Nico_P: that was what I wanted to say ;-) |
| 16:04:48 | Llorean | pondlife: You freeze the features, but backport bug-fixes. |
| 16:05:06 | Nico_P | bluebrother: yeah, I think we agree :) |
| 16:05:07 | pondlife | Serious bug fixes that can't be back-transported would be a reason for a new release from the trunk. |
| 16:05:10 | bluebrother | and while having a feature freeze development of new features can go on the same way: in local trees. |
| 16:05:12 | Llorean | pondlife: You can also backport features if they're considered really bug-free, in preparation for the next release. |
| 16:05:18 | pondlife | Nooo |
| 16:05:39 | pondlife | Stable = bug fixes only, and careful ones at that. |
| 16:05:45 | | Quit Toki (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 16:05:48 | pondlife | Dev = all else |
| 16:05:54 | Llorean | pondlife: Then how do you put together "next release"? |
| 16:06:01 | rasher | Llorean: branch from trunk? |
| 16:06:05 | rasher | after a freeze |
| 16:06:09 | Nico_P | with a new release branch |
| 16:06:20 | Llorean | rasher: But couldn't you also have "stable", "next release" and "trunk"? |
| 16:06:29 | Nico_P | I say the freeze should affect the release branch after it's created |
| 16:06:38 | Llorean | Stable gets only bug fixes, next release gets bug fixes and "non-buggy" features. |
| 16:06:42 | Llorean | Trunk is everything else |
| 16:06:42 | bluebrother | why a "next release"? That would require merging all the time |
| 16:06:44 | JdGordon | yeah, freeze never happens on trunk |
| 16:06:44 | rasher | Llorean: I think you should only create "next release" at the point stable gets unmaintainable or a new release is wanted |
| 16:07:08 | | Join BobShield [0] (i=rshield@c-24-15-123-57.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 16:07:16 | | Join DerPapst [0] (n=DerPapst@tux.isd-internet.de) |
| 16:07:35 | rasher | Dylan7262: you should just ask your question |
| 16:07:42 | Llorean | rasher: If you have an in-sync next release, you can publish it every 3 months as the new current-release, and simply apologize that few features have made their way into it rather than having to do hard freezes or anything |
| 16:07:48 | bluebrother | I think it would be better to just branch upon a release, and only bugfixes for the released version should get there |
| 16:07:50 | Llorean | Or even publish it monthly |
| 16:07:53 | Nico_P | rasher: with releases close enough from one-another, the stable branch wouldn't be necessary... it would just be the current release branch |
| 16:08:07 | rasher | Nico_P: that's my thinking as well |
| 16:08:15 | rasher | Llorean: but that'd require keeping "next release" in sync |
| 16:08:17 | Llorean | I just think that there's no reason that once a feature has been "tested" it can't be backported to some "stable-ish" version. |
| 16:08:17 | | Quit Dylan7262 ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)") |
| 16:08:36 | Llorean | Rather than keeping it mixed in with all the unstable features |
| 16:08:37 | | Quit Jon-Kha_ (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 16:08:38 | bluebrother | but backporting can be quite painful ... |
| 16:08:59 | bluebrother | so how realistic ist that someone will do it? |
| 16:09:10 | JdGordon | depends on the bug |
| 16:09:15 | rasher | JdGordon: not bug, feature |
| 16:09:18 | JdGordon | both |
| 16:09:28 | Llorean | Well, someone has to either backport "good" features, or fix/remove all "bad" features before a release. |
| 16:09:31 | JdGordon | hang on, features dont get backported |
| 16:09:44 | rasher | JdGordon: in Llorean's world they do! |
| 16:09:46 | Llorean | JdGordon: Depends on how you look at it. |
| 16:10:07 | JdGordon | new features should mean a new stable |
| 16:10:28 | bluebrother | then we would need to release much more often. |
| 16:10:36 | JdGordon | so? |
| 16:11:21 | | Part wippeout |
| 16:11:44 | rasher | My proposal: Once a release is wanted/needed (old release is no longer maintainable), a new branch is created from trunk, and work focuses on bugfixing that branch. At some point it's released, and after that, work continues on trunk, and bug-fixes (and only bugfixes) are backported to the release-branch and the release is updated with a point-release. |
| 16:11:46 | bluebrother | well, I wouldn't object in releasing more often |
| 16:12:36 | rasher | And yes, releases should happen more often, possibly a couple of times per year |
| 16:12:39 | bluebrother | but that would need to not add multiple features at once, and possibly add a much shorter fixing freeze after a new feature comes in |
| 16:12:39 | rasher | if not more |
| 16:12:44 | bluebrother | followed by a release. |
| 16:13:02 | Nico_P | rasher: I think I agree with your proposal |
| 16:13:08 | JdGordon | well.. how often does a major new feature go in? not very... |
| 16:13:19 | JdGordon | branhcing to a new stable on each big one would be fine |
| 16:13:32 | bluebrother | I'm not sure. |
| 16:13:33 | Nico_P | JdGordon: it would go in the trunk, then in the new major release |
| 16:13:54 | JdGordon | Nico_P: yeah, i skipped a step,... |
| 16:13:57 | bluebrother | at least we would need to feature freeze trunk after a new feature goes in for, say 2 weeks and concentrate on fixing |
| 16:14:09 | JdGordon | once the branch happens no moer bug fixes should need to be put in |
| 16:14:34 | JdGordon | then rebuild all the stable builds on each enw commit to than branch instead of the dailies |
| 16:14:54 | Nico_P | bluebrother: why ? the feature goes in the trunk, then gets tested/fixed until the next release branch |
| 16:15:05 | Nico_P | then in the release branch it gets fixed even more |
| 16:15:20 | JdGordon | no, it sholdnt go into release untill its bug free |
| 16:15:28 | JdGordon | thats the whole point of the release branch |
| 16:15:32 | austriancoder | petur: ping |
| 16:15:34 | rasher | JdGordon: this is a utopian ideal |
| 16:16:02 | Nico_P | JdGordon: the release branch would be only for fixes to the features it contains |
| 16:16:06 | JdGordon | rasher: obviously... but if no fixes get commited for a few days or a week it can be considered bug free and branched |
| 16:16:21 | JdGordon | Nico_P: yes, but not to the feature that caused the branch |
| 16:16:25 | Nico_P | JdGordon: obvioulsy, we'd need to agree on what changes to include in a release |
| 16:16:58 | bluebrother | I don't think having multiple branches will help much |
| 16:17:11 | Nico_P | JdGordon: the way I see it, a feature doesn't cause a branch. It's a release decision that causes a branch |
| 16:17:12 | bluebrother | it rather looks to me as it would create more hassle ... |
| 16:17:20 | rasher | I really believe very strongly that the model I proposed would work well. Using "a huge feature went in" as a reason to branch also works in my model. |
| 16:17:33 | Nico_P | say we decide to release 3.0 soon, then we create a 3.0 branch and nothing goes into it but fixes |
| 16:17:38 | rasher | "a huge feature that we want to release", that is. |
| 16:19:51 | petur | austriancoder: bad timing... work stkov... what's up? |
| 16:21:13 | Nico_P | rasher: maybe it would be good to post a proposal on the ML |
| 16:21:42 | | Quit idnar (Nick collision from services.) |
| 16:21:45 | | Join idnar_ [0] (i=mithrand@unaffiliated/idnar) |
| 16:21:47 | rasher | Nico_P: I'll put something together. Basically re-stating what I just said. |
| 16:22:04 | Nico_P | cool :) |
| 16:22:05 | austriancoder | petur: I am working in integrating the current stack. I need to call usb_stack_start() and usb_stack_stop() to start and stop it, but usb_enable seems to be never called with argument true. So at the moment I am doing the start call in usb_detect, which leads that start() is called very very often. |
| 16:22:21 | austriancoder | petur: but its not that important and we can talk about it later the day |
| 16:23:33 | petur | austriancoder: I'm having real life obligations tonight, it could be quite late when I pop in again... |
| 16:23:50 | JdGordon | lies!!!! |
| 16:24:02 | austriancoder | petur: no problem |
| 16:24:09 | petur | austriancoder: who calls usb_enable? |
| 16:24:56 | austriancoder | petur: usb_slave_mode() in firmware/usb.c and the bootloader |
| 16:25:21 | petur | so whenever a connection is detected? |
| 16:27:17 | austriancoder | nope - usb_tick checks for the connection and notifys others: queue_post(&usb_queue, USB_INSERTED, 0); |
| 16:28:14 | austriancoder | petur: cant find a place where usb_slave_mode(..) is called in the source |
| 16:28:31 | petur | that would explain it, no? |
| 16:28:52 | preglow | amiconn: you wouldn't happen to know anything about the effects of not properly matching the impedance of the cartridge at the amp input stage? |
| 16:29:04 | petur | I would expect to start the queue on USB_INSERTED |
| 16:29:13 | petur | s/queue/stack |
| 16:29:20 | | Join Adikdid [0] (n=chatzill@CPE-58-168-167-56.vic.bigpond.net.au) |
| 16:30:12 | Adikdid | hi can someone help me? |
| 16:30:48 | Adikdid | how do i get album art to shoy up on my 5th gen iPod |
| 16:31:08 | austriancoder | petur: so for the moment I will enable and disable the stack in usb_detect - later we can cleanup the usb stuff |
| 16:31:24 | petur | Adikdid: not supported officially, go see the forum |
| 16:31:43 | Adikdid | Ah, damn |
| 16:31:59 | markun | Adikdid: here's some info http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/AlbumArt |
| 16:32:07 | petur | austriancoder: why are you getting multiple usb_detect? |
| 16:32:45 | austriancoder | petur: i dont get multiple detects... i have the problem that after a connect usb_enable is _not_ called, where i enable/disable the stack |
| 16:33:24 | petur | hmmm, you said above "So at the moment I am doing the start call in usb_detect, which leads that start() is called very very often." |
| 16:33:40 | | Join nerochiaro [0] (n=nerochia@adsl203-164-174.mclink.it) |
| 16:34:15 | austriancoder | petur: correct... in usb detect i have something like: |
| 16:34:35 | austriancoder | if (connected == false) { usb_stack_stop(); return false; } /* do we want autodetection? */ if (usbcore.mode == AUTOMATIC) { logf("automatic mode"); UDC_OTGSC |= 0x5F000000; if ((UDC_OTGSC & 0x100) == 0) { usb_controller_select(HOST); } else { usb_controller_select(DEVICE); } } /* TODO correct place? */ usb_stack_start(); return true; |
| 16:34:35 | | Quit low_light ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") |
| 16:34:38 | petur | anyway, I don't know the relation between usb_enable and usb_detect. Do you want to start the stack at boot or at connection? |
| 16:34:49 | petur | austriancoder: use pastebin please |
| 16:35:30 | austriancoder | petur: so if i do the enabling in usb_detect, I dont know for what usb_enable exists!! |
| 16:35:57 | austriancoder | petur: I want to start it under a running rockbox, when i insert the usb cable |
| 16:36:10 | petur | austriancoder: don't assume the current code is correct... check it... |
| 16:36:23 | austriancoder | petur: okay.. |
| 16:36:38 | petur | starting at connection would be best |
| 16:36:45 | petur | (imo) |
| 16:37:29 | | Join Domonoky [0] (n=Domonoky@85.179.50.213) |
| 16:37:36 | petur | you probably will need to stop playback and stuff to claim the iram |
| 16:38:04 | | Quit JdGordon (Remote closed the connection) |
| 16:38:10 | * | austriancoder will spend some hours later the day to understand fully rockbox code |
| 16:38:51 | petur | don't forget to check the tx problem too ;) |
| 16:39:12 | petur | work always piles up after holiday :p |
| 16:40:42 | Nico_P | austriancoder: It looks like we're at about the same point... I'm starting to try integrating my MoB work in playback.c :) |
| 16:40:52 | austriancoder | petur: jep... I only need to write selection of usb device driver and then I want to do the first commit. WIll have only two dummy drivers, but for testing its okay. |
| 16:41:42 | | Join Adikdid_ [0] (n=chatzill@CPE-58-168-149-30.vic.bigpond.net.au) |
| 16:42:21 | Adikdid_ | hey where do i actually download the album art patch? |
| 16:42:57 | austriancoder | petur: and maybe i get this also working: idea: all drivers should be something like rockbox plugins... rockbox usb drivers.the app code scans for usb drivers and register them automaticly in the stack.We only need one *.c file for a driver and we dont need any *.h files with onemethod in it: usb_<drivername>_init(void); |
| 16:43:12 | Nico_P | Adikdid_: are you able to build rockbox from source ? |
| 16:43:22 | Adikdid_ | what do you mean? |
| 16:43:25 | Domonoky | Adikdid_: from the patch tracker (flyspray) but you have to compile.. or use an inofficial build (see forums) |
| 16:43:53 | Adikdid_ | i cant domonoky, it wont let me sign upto the forums |
| 16:44:01 | Adikdid_ | can someone please send it too me over here? |
| 16:44:07 | petur | austriancoder, Nico_P: I don't think it is important that commits are done soon enough, make sure the code is well tested and has no bad effects for users... |
| 16:44:28 | Domonoky | Adikdid_: you dont need to signup for the forum, to just see some thread.. |
| 16:44:32 | pondlife | Yes, and make patches available in the meantime. |
| 16:44:38 | petur | yup |
| 16:44:39 | Nico_P | petur: I have a git repo on which I plan to do my work |
| 16:44:56 | * | austriancoder has only online patches |
| 16:45:06 | petur | Nico_P: good... nobody presses for commits atm |
| 16:45:07 | Nico_P | ... I've already started the rest of the work on another repo |
| 16:45:16 | pondlife | Nico_P: I'd like to see a Flyspray entry with patches against SVN too... git can do that quite easily, right? |
| 16:45:23 | Nico_P | austriancoder: I can give you push access to my public repo if you want |
| 16:45:47 | Adikdid_ | http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/3045?histring=album%20art |
| 16:45:52 | Adikdid_ | is this thread right? |
| 16:45:53 | petur | don't mix the developments please |
| 16:45:58 | Nico_P | pondlife: currently I have only one commit in my mob branch for rockbox git repo... |
| 16:45:58 | austriancoder | Nico_P: I am not very familiar with git.. at the moment I dont see a need for it |
| 16:46:18 | austriancoder | Nico_P: do you need a linked list in your project? |
| 16:46:33 | Nico_P | austriancoder: believe me, it's great ;)... I loved it for offline work |
| 16:46:40 | Nico_P | yes I have one |
| 16:46:50 | Domonoky | Adikdid: thats the patch tracker.. so if you want to use a patch from there, you have to be able to compile rockbox yourself.. |
| 16:47:06 | bluebrother | hi Domonoky |
| 16:47:10 | Nico_P | Adikdid_: seen http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/AlbumArt ? |
| 16:47:11 | petur | Nico_P: I will set one up at home too when I get the time :( |
| 16:47:17 | Domonoky | hi bluebrother :-) |
| 16:47:36 | bluebrother | I was wondering if it's a good solution to extend ZipInstaller to also be able copying files instead of extracting them. |
| 16:47:41 | Nico_P | austriancoder: are you going to need a linked list ? |
| 16:47:45 | | Join My_Sic [0] (n=MySic@mur31-1-82-237-204-133.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 16:47:49 | bluebrother | that way we could reuse it for the voice files. What do you think? |
| 16:48:17 | austriancoder | Nico_P: yep.. and I am using this one: http://www.christian-gmeiner.info/soc/linked_list.patch |
| 16:48:24 | Nico_P | petur: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/GitVersionControl is good start in case you don't know about it |
| 16:48:28 | Adikdid_ | Nico_P - i cant find where to downoad it? |
| 16:48:34 | Domonoky | bluebrother: sounds good, just make a parameter to skip the unzipping.. |
| 16:48:36 | * | petur knows |
| 16:48:51 | Nico_P | Adikdid_: a patch is a tect file you apply to the source code |
| 16:49:01 | Nico_P | s/tect/text |
| 16:49:10 | bluebrother | yeah −− I thought about a setUnzip() which is true per default −− if it's false just copy the downloaded file to the target location |
| 16:49:25 | Adikdid_ | ok, so how do i do this, then? |
| 16:49:26 | Adikdid_ | please |
| 16:49:27 | Domonoky | thats good.. |
| 16:49:31 | bluebrother | only "ZipInstaller" might be a bit ... off after that ;-) |
| 16:49:36 | bluebrother | but I can live with it |
| 16:49:50 | bluebrother | ah, and what do you think about adding doxygen comments to the sources? |
| 16:50:13 | Nico_P | Adikdid_: one of the first lines of http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/AlbumArt says this : "If you don't know what a patch is or how to apply one, you should have a look at the SimpleGuideToCompiling." |
| 16:50:25 | Nico_P | with a link to http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/SimpleGuideToCompiling |
| 16:50:57 | Domonoky | bluebrother: we could rename the ZipInstaller class :-) doxygen comments would be nice.. but not too much comments.. doxygen comments tends to comment usesless things :-) |
| 16:51:01 | Nico_P | austriancoder: looks nice... I wrote quite a simple one |
| 16:51:19 | Adikdid_ | yes, but i dont get it |
| 16:51:27 | austriancoder | Nico_P: I was lazy and tooked the liked list impl from linux kernel |
| 16:51:41 | Nico_P | Adikdid_: then you should head to the forum and download an unofficial build |
| 16:51:45 | bluebrother | useless comments? I'm usually quite brief in doxygen comments, what could be useless there? |
| 16:51:57 | bluebrother | It just makes browsing the code nicer imo :) |
| 16:52:03 | Adikdid_ | well thats what i have been talking about fro the start |
| 16:52:13 | Adikdid_ | a link to a unoficcial build. haha |
| 16:52:35 | Domonoky | bluebrother: often the comment just tells the same as what the function name implies.. but we can do better :-) |
| 16:52:53 | bluebrother | use cryptic function names? *g* |
| 16:52:57 | Domonoky | hehe |
| 16:52:58 | pondlife | lol |
| 16:53:01 | | Quit Adikdid (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 16:53:04 | austriancoder | Nico_P: we need to choose one linked list impl, which we both uses |
| 16:53:13 | Adikdid_ | hi? |
| 16:53:14 | Nico_P | Adikdid_: sorry, I didn't know that... I can't do much for you but point you to the forums |
| 16:53:21 | * | bluebrother read something about "ugly variables" once |
| 16:53:26 | Nico_P | austriancoder: that sounds like a good idea |
| 16:53:34 | Adikdid_ | can you give me the link please? |
| 16:53:39 | Nico_P | ... a reasonable one too |
| 16:54:01 | Domonoky | Adikdid_: go to the forum, and choose an unofficial build, its not that hard.. |
| 16:54:01 | Nico_P | Adikdid_: is the website *that* unuseabe ? http://forums.rockbox.org/ |
| 16:54:21 | | Join low_light [0] (i=c730180b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-b16af5288b2d17f3) |
| 16:54:39 | Adikdid_ | no i can use that one |
| 16:55:06 | bluebrother | if the website is that unusable, how unusable Rockbox must be? :o |
| 16:55:13 | Nico_P | austriancoder: I'm quite happy with my implementation... it's quite short and simple and it suits my context well |
| 16:55:30 | Nico_P | austriancoder: but maybe it wouldn't be appropriate for yours |
| 16:55:40 | Adikdid_ | what? |
| 16:55:53 | petur | if only the small one is needed, go for that... |
| 16:56:03 | austriancoder | Nico_P: I only need it to have all usb drivers in list. |
| 16:56:07 | austriancoder | petur: mine is also small |
| 16:56:32 | austriancoder | so it would be fine, when we commit one linked list soon |
| 16:56:42 | Nico_P | austriancoder: a possile problem with mine is that it's not separate from the rest of the code and it acts directly on my data struct |
| 16:56:43 | petur | then get an agreement between you too ;) |
| 16:56:51 | austriancoder | Nico_P: can I see your impl |
| 16:57:16 | Nico_P | austriancoder: sure :) http://repo.or.cz/w/Rockbox-MoB.git?a=blob;f=testplugin.c;h=41a248ab7b4722f92e2acb510ab13fedf8d13453;hb=no_rb_in_rb#l130 |
| 16:57:46 | Nico_P | it would need to be made more generic though... and it's quite basic |
| 16:58:50 | Adikdid_ | does anyone here download with torrents? |
| 16:59:16 | austriancoder | Nico_P: mine is generic |
| 16:59:18 | Domonoky | Adikdid_: please stay on topic.. only rockbox talk allowed here.. |
| 16:59:45 | Adikdid_ | surely your allowed to talk about other stuff? |
| 17:00 |
| 17:00:09 | rasher | Adikdid_: please see http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/IrcGuidelines |
| 17:00:29 | austriancoder | Nico_P: http://isis.poly.edu/kulesh/stuff/src/klist/ |
| 17:00:38 | bluebrother | Adikdid_: try #rockbox-community |
| 17:00:42 | Domonoky | no |
| 17:01:31 | Adikdid_ | there is knowone there |
| 17:01:47 | Nico_P | austriancoder: I agree it's pretty appealing |
| 17:02:11 | markun | nice sarcastic quote from slashdot: "Remember: you should be able to do whatever you want with information, except if its the GPL! Then you have to follow the GPL!" :) |
| 17:02:37 | bluebrother | hmm, can't I do git diff <files>? Doesn't seem to work :( |
| 17:02:45 | | Part Adikdid_ |
| 17:04:41 | Nico_P | bluebrother: you want to diff only some particular files ? |
| 17:04:42 | | Join ian_hawdon [0] (n=ian@86.154.187.94) |
| 17:05:02 | bluebrother | yes. Is that possible? |
| 17:05:06 | | Part ian_hawdon |
| 17:05:33 | | Join dandin1 [0] (n=dandin1@bas7-ottawa23-1088824222.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 17:05:59 | Nico_P | bluebrother: it seems to work for me |
| 17:07:19 | Nico_P | bluebrother: "git diff file1 file2" shows the diff between the working copy and the repo for file1 and file2 |
| 17:08:00 | bluebrother | hmm. Strange, that didn't work for me. |
| 17:08:41 | Nico_P | what version are you using ? are the files in the repo ? |
| 17:09:04 | bluebrother | ah ... seems I was in the wrong folder. |
| 17:09:36 | bluebrother | but it's somewhat strange that I didn't get an error message (and git diff showed me the diff) |
| 17:11:00 | austriancoder | Nico_P: so shall be both use the linux linked list? |
| 17:11:48 | Nico_P | austriancoder: I'm all for it |
| 17:12:19 | Nico_P | austriancoder: though I'll probably focus on other things and port my code to that list when I get thet time |
| 17:12:19 | | Quit BobShield (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 17:12:33 | austriancoder | Nico_P: okay |
| 17:12:34 | Nico_P | but it seems to be a good and reliable choice |
| 17:13:06 | Nico_P | have you made sure it compiles and works nicely in rockbox ? |
| 17:13:41 | | Join Adikdid [0] (n=chatzill@CPE-58-168-149-30.vic.bigpond.net.au) |
| 17:13:49 | Adikdid | hi me, again |
| 17:14:45 | austriancoder | Nico_P: I will do some extreme testing tonight and/or tomrrow |
| 17:15:24 | Nico_P | cool :) let me know if you need help |
| 17:15:42 | Nico_P | maybe there are other linked lists in rockbox we could port too... |
| 17:15:49 | | Join BobShield [0] (i=rshield@c-24-15-123-57.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 17:16:37 | rasher | I believe database uses linked lists, but I'm not sure. |
| 17:17:39 | Adikdid | i downloaded a theme called Purpbox |
| 17:17:56 | Adikdid | how come the actual images in the background dont show up? |
| 17:18:08 | Adikdid | and why doesnt it look like it does in the preview on the rockbox website? |
| 17:18:17 | Nico_P | bluebrother: is the tracker cleanup "week" still on ? and what results did it yield ? |
| 17:19:30 | rasher | Adikdid: Have you installed the fonts package? Also, purpbox requires an unsupported build. Any problems you have with it, you should take up with the author of the WPS or the maintainer of the build you're using. |
| 17:20:38 | bluebrother | Nico_P: it ended last sunday. We got down to less than 800 open tasks (over 1000 before it) |
| 17:20:56 | Nico_P | nice :) |
| 17:21:06 | Adikdid | ok rasher, does anyone know of any themes that actually look like what they do on the rockbox site? |
| 17:21:25 | bluebrother | IMO we should repeat it in a couple of month ;-) |
| 17:21:48 | rasher | Adikdid: They should all look like the screenshot, assuming you use the build they recommend, and have the required font installed. |
| 17:23:46 | Adikdid | rasher, i'm on the rock-themes.org page and i have a 5gen 30gig vid iPod |
| 17:24:16 | Adikdid | so should i choose iPod Video from the "identify your player" page? |
| 17:24:45 | rasher | Adikdid: Yes. What else would you chose? |
| 17:25:53 | Adikdid | ok so what do i do now? |
| 17:26:05 | Adikdid | like i mean i have installed the purpbox theme too my iPod |
| 17:26:37 | rasher | Adikdid: Then you read that the purpbox theme needs "Senab's build" (an unofficial rockbox version) and install that. |
| 17:26:47 | GodEater | Adikdid: you still haven't said whether you've installed the fonts either |
| 17:26:56 | Adikdid | yes i have |
| 17:27:21 | rasher | Adikdid: Again, this is an unofficial version of Rockbox, and we will not help you if it has bugs or other problems. |
| 17:27:42 | Adikdid | i installed the fonts package fronm the "fonts page" |
| 17:27:59 | GodEater | so if you've done that, and you've installed senab's build |
| 17:28:04 | GodEater | then we can't help you any further |
| 17:28:06 | GodEater | go ask senab |
| 17:28:17 | rasher | Adikdid: you should read the forum thread dedicated to Senab's build: http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=7942.0 |
| 17:28:46 | Adikdid | on the senab d/l page it says there is two versions "normal" & "cop" |
| 17:29:01 | Adikdid | would it be best to go with normal? |
| 17:29:13 | GodEater | Adikdid: we don't know - ask senab |
| 17:29:24 | GodEater | we've no idea if there are any other differences between them |
| 17:29:29 | GodEater | only senab knows |
| 17:31:36 | Adikdid | OK, so i installed that Senab build |
| 17:31:40 | Adikdid | and the fonts pack |
| 17:31:43 | Adikdid | anything else? |
| 17:32:14 | rasher | No. |
| 17:32:27 | rasher | If the theme still looks wrong, it's a problem with the theme. |
| 17:32:34 | rasher | Or with Senab's build. |
| 17:32:46 | rasher | Not really something we can help you with. |
| 17:33:44 | Adikdid | no i meant is there anything else i need to install before i dosconnect my iPod and see if it has all worked ok |
| 17:34:21 | rasher | Same answer. |
| 17:34:26 | | Quit DerPapst ("So Long And Thanks For All The Fish!") |
| 17:34:35 | petur | 42 |
| 17:35:45 | GodEater | We apologise for the inconvenience |
| 17:35:52 | petur | :) |
| 17:36:14 | Adikdid | sall good but damn it sasy it has to rebuild my database |
| 17:38:08 | GodEater | petur: it's amazing, that actually appears to work as D. Adams said it would ;) |
| 17:38:09 | | Join Soul-Slayer [0] (n=Administ@89.241.171.92) |
| 17:39:00 | Adikdid | is it easy to make a theme? |
| 17:39:20 | GodEater | read the wiki page on the subject and decide for yourself |
| 17:39:45 | GodEater | http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/CustomWPS |
| 17:40:16 | * | petur looks at GodEater with his left head |
| 17:40:40 | petur | (my computer has dual head) |
| 17:40:41 | GodEater | while the right one shovels pan galatic gargle blasters down its throat no doubt |
| 17:43:59 | | Quit Adikdid ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.6/2007072518]") |
| 17:44:05 | | Quit My_Sic ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org") |
| 17:44:27 | Soul-Slayer | I found a program that is charging people to use it, and it's core element is ffmpeg... And it isn't being distributed with it's source code, and not even acknowledgement of the license... Surely thats breaching the GPL? |
| 17:45:00 | | Join XavierGr [0] (n=xavier@ppp221-52.adsl.forthnet.gr) |
| 17:45:19 | rasher | Soul-Slayer: If they're distributing ffmpeg without an offer of source or acknowledgement that it's GPL, yes. |
| 17:47:17 | * | Soul-Slayer wonders what he should do about it |
| 17:47:27 | GodEater | report it to the EFF |
| 17:47:36 | Soul-Slayer | EFF? |
| 17:47:38 | petur | or mail ffmpeg guys |
| 17:47:54 | rasher | I'd say contacting ffmpeg is at the top of the list. Let them handle it however they want. |
| 17:48:01 | Soul-Slayer | Ok. |
| 17:49:11 | Soul-Slayer | I'll see what they have to say in IRC |
| 17:54:29 | Nico_P | Soul-Slayer: what's the program ? |
| 17:54:42 | Soul-Slayer | http://stinkbot.com/Tubesock/index.html |
| 17:55:14 | Soul-Slayer | Converts youtube videos into other formats, but it doesn't even mention it's using ffmpeg |
| 17:55:38 | Soul-Slayer | Even in their FAQ, the legal aspect only covers whether it's legal to download from Youtube, nothing about ffmpeg |
| 17:55:49 | | Quit XavierGr_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 17:55:53 | Nico_P | how do you know it uses ffmpeg ? |
| 17:56:15 | | Join polluxx2006 [0] (n=polluxx@xdsl-81-173-237-185.netcologne.de) |
| 17:56:25 | Soul-Slayer | The windows version uses ffmpeg.exe |
| 17:56:31 | Soul-Slayer | And the mac version is using ffmpeg |
| 17:56:41 | Soul-Slayer | with no extension, but no license bundled with it |
| 17:56:50 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 17:57:11 | | Quit pondlife ("disconnected has pondlife") |
| 17:58:15 | GodEater | if they're using ffmpeg like that (i.e. calling it externally), then isn't that a valid use of the LGPL ? |
| 17:58:41 | * | GodEater notices the time and has to run |
| 17:58:49 | Soul-Slayer | I'm not sure, that's why I'm wondering |
| 17:58:50 | * | petur too |
| 17:58:55 | rasher | Well, they need to bundle the license and a written offer for source-code, at the very least. |
| 17:58:57 | Soul-Slayer | Surely they need to mention the license somewhere though? |
| 17:59:03 | | Quit petur ("work->home->real life") |
| 17:59:38 | * | bluebrother has voice file installing in rbutil |
| 18:00 |
| 18:02:15 | | Quit polluxx2006 () |
| 18:05:13 | Domonoky | nice :-) |
| 18:13:45 | | Nick idnar_ is now known as idnar (i=mithrand@unaffiliated/idnar) |
| 18:23:30 | Domonoky | bluebrother: is the voice file really named english.lang ? i thought it should be english.voice |
| 18:24:04 | | Join Siku [0] (i=Siku@dsl-kpogw4-fe55df00-86.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 18:24:46 | bluebrother | d'oh! |
| 18:24:47 | rasher | Domonoky: You're right |
| 18:25:11 | Domonoky | :-) |
| 18:25:58 | bluebrother | and I just updated my windows binary :'-( |
| 18:27:15 | * | bluebrother wonders who did the most oops commits |
| 18:27:47 | * | Domonoky thinks about changing the talkfile dialog, to move the configuration of tts and codec to the config dialog... it gets more and more to configure :-) |
| 18:28:07 | bluebrother | hehe ;) |
| 18:28:25 | | Join PaulJam [0] (n=pauljam@p54BCE1F0.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 18:28:50 | bluebrother | ok, windows binary updated once more. For those who dare to test ;-) |
| 18:29:03 | bluebrother | now with accessibility plugin compiled in. |
| 18:29:48 | PaulJam | hi, i have a little question: with the plungins in subfolders, where do i have to put the autostart.rock? still directly in .rockbox/rocks/ ? |
| 18:29:51 | Domonoky | nice, we should get some blind users to try it.. so we get response how good/bad it is to use for them.. |
| 18:30:01 | bluebrother | /.rockbox/apps |
| 18:30:06 | | Join DerPapst [0] (n=DerPapst@pD9EB373F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 18:30:13 | PaulJam | thank you. |
| 18:30:26 | bluebrother | err, /.rockbox/rocks/apps |
| 18:30:32 | PaulJam | ok |
| 18:30:42 | bluebrother | damn, I'm error-prone today :( |
| 18:30:56 | Domonoky | :-) |
| 18:32:06 | bluebrother | hmm, looks like RBInstaller doesn't use the ZipInstaller class |
| 18:32:58 | | Join pixelma [0] (i=pixelma@rockbox/staff/pixelma) |
| 18:32:59 | Domonoky | bluebrother: install.cpp (which does install rockbox) uses ZipInstaller |
| 18:33:25 | bluebrother | hmm −− and what is installrb.cpp doing? |
| 18:33:46 | bluebrother | looks like it isn't used anymore. |
| 18:33:48 | Domonoky | bluebrother: you are in rbutil and not in rbutilqt :-) |
| 18:34:20 | Domonoky | no, i dont have this file |
| 18:34:34 | Domonoky | so its not in svn |
| 18:34:53 | Domonoky | there is installbl.cpp which installs the bootloader |
| 18:34:54 | bluebrother | ah. I have this file but it isn't in svn |
| 18:35:42 | Domonoky | installbl should be renamed to installbootloaderwindow.. :-) |
| 18:37:43 | bluebrother | well, I won't object :) |
| 18:44:37 | * | Domonoky renamed it.. :-) |
| 18:47:04 | | Join My_Sic [0] (n=MySic@mur31-1-82-237-204-133.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 18:48:04 | * | bluebrother added some plugin ideas to the RockboxUtility page |
| 18:48:08 | Domonoky | bluebrother: should i make a combined TTS Engine and Encoder configuration Tab (with title like Talkfile) or seperate Tabs for encoder and tts ? |
| 18:49:22 | bluebrother | hmm, a combined tab would get quite crowded, wouldn't it? |
| 18:49:39 | Domonoky | yes, thats likely.. |
| 18:50:48 | bluebrother | I think I'd use two tabs |
| 18:52:01 | | Join haemmy [0] (n=stefan@194.208.162.140) |
| 18:54:38 | PaulJam | hmm, my h300 just turned off during operation and i wasn't able to power ot on again until i connected the charger. the time and date was then reset. does this mean my battery is faulty or could there be another reason for this behaviour? |
| 18:55:02 | PaulJam | (the battery was at least half full) |
| 18:56:59 | * | alienbiker99 needs a new h300 battery |
| 18:57:36 | * | PaulJam propably too :( |
| 18:58:07 | alienbiker99 | actually i think i need to just solder the wire back on, it ripped out |
| 19:00 |
| 19:00:17 | * | Nico_P wonders why FS #821 hasn't been rejected |
| 19:00:30 | | Quit BigMac (Remote closed the connection) |
| 19:04:51 | | Quit TinoM (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 19:09:40 | amiconn | preglow: Input impedance for MC or MM systems shouldn't matter, as long as it is high enough (a few dozen kOhm). Only piezo pickups (?) want a really high impedance (>=500kOhm) (and they need no riaa deemphasis) |
| 19:09:56 | | Join dan_a [0] (n=dan_a@217.23.173.156) |
| 19:12:57 | | Join Jon-Kha_ [0] (n=Jon-Kha@80-248-243-10.cust.suomicom.fi) |
| 19:17:08 | | Quit PaulJam (".") |
| 19:22:17 | | Join sergey [0] (n=sergey@ppp91-76-107-155.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) |
| 19:28:37 | | Join chrisjs169_ [0] (n=chrisjs@pool-71-254-214-208.hrbgpa.east.verizon.net) |
| 19:28:45 | preglow | amiconn: yeah, i tried soldering on a resistor of 47kohm and a 100 pf cap, and it didn't do anything |
| 19:28:55 | preglow | amiconn: so the problem with too much bass/too little treble persist :/ |
| 19:29:07 | | Quit chrisjs169 (Nick collision from services.) |
| 19:29:08 | | Nick chrisjs169_ is now known as chrisjs169 (n=chrisjs@pool-71-254-214-208.hrbgpa.east.verizon.net) |
| 19:31:53 | | Join jgarvey [0] (n=jgarvey@cpe-024-162-254-070.nc.res.rr.com) |
| 19:35:35 | | Join Quelsaruk [0] (n=kvirc@233.pool85-61-15.dynamic.orange.es) |
| 19:35:37 | Quelsaruk | hi |
| 19:36:30 | amiconn | preglow: Sounds like you're applying too much un-riaa'ing |
| 19:36:48 | * | amiconn prefers to stay away from vinyl and other analog relics if possible |
| 19:40:30 | dan_a | amiconn: Would you be interested in the value of DEV_EN on a G4 greyscale? If so, C2C3197F |
| 19:41:43 | DerPapst | amiconn: i wonder... don't you have the nano flash rom dumps i gave you anymore? |
| 19:41:48 | low_light | is sansapatcher the only way to get the rockbox bootloader on a sansa? |
| 19:42:17 | amiconn | DerPapst: Flash update file != flash rom content |
| 19:42:20 | | Join desowin [0] (n=desowin@79.187.93.186) |
| 19:42:42 | DerPapst | i thought they were the same |
| 19:42:47 | | Quit Nico_P (Remote closed the connection) |
| 19:42:52 | amiconn | dan_a: So we have another unknown bit, bit 17 |
| 19:43:19 | | Quit sergey (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 19:43:32 | amiconn | dan_a: Would be nice if you could give my other patch a go on G4 grayscale |
| 19:43:43 | * | DerPapst just remeberd to do the test... |
| 19:43:55 | amiconn | (the one that shows 2 LCD registers and tries LCD suspend/reenabling |
| 19:44:37 | dan_a | amiconn: Where can I get it / how far back through the logs do I need to look |
| 19:44:47 | amiconn | amiconn.dyndns.org/lcd_test.diff">http://amiconn.dyndns.org/lcd_test.diff |
| 19:45:32 | dan_a | amiconn: I'm just trying to get USB detection on the G3, then I'll do that on the G4 |
| 19:45:56 | amiconn | With that build, first enter "View I/O Ports" and note the 2 LCD register values. Then enter "View HW Info". That should put the LCD into suspend for 2 seconds, then wakeup |
| 19:46:41 | amiconn | Re-check the LCD registers afterwards (they might be different if I made a mistake in my RE research) |
| 19:47:11 | amiconn | It's already tested on G3 by DerPapst |
| 19:47:23 | amiconn | dan_a: Did you find something regarding USB on G3? |
| 19:48:02 | amiconn | Afaiu, apple does *not* use the built-in USB controller of the PP5002 (which is USB1.1 only) |
| 19:48:28 | dan_a | amiconn: Only which GPIO pin lights up when it's plugged in, but IIUC that should be enough to put it into disk mode - the same as the behaviour on the other iPods |
| 19:48:41 | amiconn | Nope |
| 19:48:46 | DerPapst | amiconn: correct. |
| 19:48:54 | | Join sergey [0] (n=sergey@ppp85-140-150-52.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) |
| 19:48:55 | amiconn | The GPIO pin isn't enough to distinguish USB from pure USB power |
| 19:49:43 | amiconn | On PP502x we initialize the built-in USB controller "a bit", enough to make it tell us whether it's a real USB connection |
| 19:49:46 | | Quit haemmy () |
| 19:50:02 | dan_a | Ah. I'll skip that test then! |
| 19:50:35 | amiconn | And in fact you could also test that LCD patch on G3, in case yours has a different LCD panel (there seem to be 3 versions according the the OF's tables) |
| 19:51:09 | amiconn | Well, you could make it reboot into USB mode when detecting USB power. Maybe that's better than not rebooting at all |
| 19:52:00 | amiconn | It will take some disassembling to do it properly |
| 19:52:06 | DerPapst | i think you only connect a 3G to usb when you want to transfer files. otherwise there is really no reason to connect it to usb |
| 19:52:10 | amiconn | (i.e. initialising the USB controller) |
| 19:55:06 | amiconn | If your G3's LCD panel is different *and* you also observe unstable blacklevel (black becomes "less black" when large black areas are displayed) you could also test another idea that DerPapst will test soon |
| 19:55:33 | DerPapst | i'm installing the build already |
| 19:55:34 | amiconn | I tested it on 2nd gen and it makes the display significantly more stable (although not perfect) |
| 19:56:05 | dan_a | I do have the unstable blacklevel issue. OF isn't perfect either. I'll tell you about the panel once I've done the G4 |
| 19:56:51 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 19:58:23 | | Join TinoM [0] (n=Tino@i5387C514.versanet.de) |
| 19:58:31 | amiconn | I know that OF isn't perfect, but I found a controller setting that improves things (and the OF doesn't use) |
| 19:59:44 | DerPapst | woo... the contrast increased a huge bit... |
| 20:00 |
| 20:00:31 | DerPapst | from contrast setting 52 to 42 |
| 20:00:38 | DerPapst | they look similar |
| 20:00:52 | amiconn | What about the changing blacklevel? |
| 20:01:14 | DerPapst | dosn't change that much anymore |
| 20:01:30 | amiconn | Yeah, that's what I observe on 2nd gen as well :) |
| 20:01:43 | amiconn | So I'll add that setting to our LCD init |
| 20:02:40 | DerPapst | ok. but make sure to lower the default contrast too. |
| 20:02:57 | DerPapst | 40 to 42 is ok then |
| 20:03:01 | amiconn | The default is 42 for 3rd gen iirc |
| 20:03:05 | preglow | amiconn: yeah, i know, but the filter is completely within specs :/ |
| 20:03:27 | DerPapst | amiconn: ok then nvm ;) |
| 20:04:34 | dan_a | amiconn: G4 R2=0075, R3=120C. LCD goes blank with the backlight on when I go into View HW Info, and the registers are unchanged afterwards |
| 20:06:27 | DerPapst | i got R2: 0055; R3: 150C on my 3G yesterday |
| 20:07:38 | jhMikeS | amiconn: USB detection is part of the AS3514 on e200 complete with debouncing and seems to actually function (via AS3514 IRQ). The USB-controller GPIO is not a detection line for sure. |
| 20:09:51 | | Quit Soul-Slayer (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 20:10:39 | amiconn | dan_a: Goodie, so suspend also works |
| 20:10:50 | amiconn | The register values are those expected for a G4 |
| 20:11:39 | dan_a | Glad to hear that... I'll check whether my G3 values match DerPapst's now |
| 20:11:46 | amiconn | On G3 you should either get 0055 and 150C, or 004A and 110C |
| 20:11:59 | | Join robin0800 [0] (n=robin080@cpc3-brig8-0-0-cust132.brig.cable.ntl.com) |
| 20:12:00 | amiconn | (the latter would be a type 8 LCD) |
| 20:12:02 | | Quit My_Sic (Connection reset by peer) |
| 20:12:47 | DerPapst | the other is either type 7 or 9 |
| 20:13:04 | austriancoder | Domonoky: how do i compile Dominik Wenger rbutilqt? I have found no makefile/CMakeLIst.txt |
| 20:13:32 | DerPapst | austriancoder: run qmake |
| 20:13:39 | amiconn | DerPapst: correct |
| 20:13:42 | DerPapst | that will create a makefile |
| 20:13:49 | austriancoder | ah okay |
| 20:15:10 | amiconn | Type 7 and type 9 should be distinguishable by the contrast you need to set to make it look right (without my blacklevel improvement patch) |
| 20:15:19 | austriancoder | DerPapst: which version of qt do I need? |
| 20:15:24 | amiconn | If it's around 52, it's type 7, if it's around 42, it's type 9 |
| 20:16:34 | | Join Soul-Slayer [0] (n=jonno@89.241.171.92) |
| 20:16:46 | Domonoky | austriancoder: qt 4.03 |
| 20:16:55 | amiconn | It might be that the difference is fixed by my blacklevel patch |
| 20:17:17 | Domonoky | if you have it installed just type "qmake && make" when you are in the rbutilqt folder |
| 20:17:20 | * | amiconn is curious whether the OF just uses whatever its loader (or our bootloader) sets |
| 20:17:54 | amiconn | In that case a rockbox bootloader with the blacklevel patch should also fix it in the OF (as long as the OF doesn't send the LCD to sleep) |
| 20:18:02 | austriancoder | Domonoky: I have 4.3.0 and compile failed |
| 20:18:29 | dan_a | 55 and 150C on my G3 - and it suspended correctly |
| 20:19:10 | Domonoky | austriancoder: it should work with 4.3 ( there was a 0 to much ) :-) |
| 20:19:21 | Domonoky | waht error do you get ? |
| 20:19:40 | austriancoder | Domonoky: nope 4.3.0 - updateing to 4.3.1 |
| 20:19:44 | Domonoky | austriancoder: and linux or windows ? |
| 20:19:49 | austriancoder | linux |
| 20:20:15 | amiconn | dan_a: Thanks for testing :) |
| 20:20:16 | DerPapst | would ther be a ways to test that? i would like to have a lowered contrast for the OF |
| 20:20:33 | Domonoky | i am running 4.3.0 on windows and it is working.. bluebrother compiles with linux.. dont know which version he uses.. |
| 20:20:33 | amiconn | Now a test on a mini G1 would complete the test |
| 20:20:44 | dan_a | amiconn: You're welcome. Thanks for your brilliant PP5002 work! |
| 20:20:45 | austriancoder | Domonoky: http://rafb.net/p/F7fVuW63.html |
| 20:20:48 | DerPapst | you have a mini G2? |
| 20:20:58 | amiconn | dan_a: A runtime test on G3 is still missing.... |
| 20:21:01 | amiconn | DerPapst: Yes |
| 20:21:13 | amiconn | And mini G2 can't read back LCD registers |
| 20:21:21 | amiconn | But suspend is tested and works |
| 20:21:38 | Domonoky | ah.. thats because your Qt version has no accessibility support.. |
| 20:22:13 | | Join My_Sic [0] (n=MySic@mur31-1-82-237-204-133.fbx.proxad.net) |
| 20:22:31 | austriancoder | Domonoky: can you do some #ifdef magic to get it compile without accessibility support? |
| 20:22:38 | | Quit barrywardell (Remote closed the connection) |
| 20:23:18 | Domonoky | i will take a look.. *starts googling* |
| 20:23:29 | * | amiconn should also repeat his test now that DEV_EN2 setup is in place |
| 20:24:30 | bluebrother | that is because of a few accessibility properties are set in rbuiltqtfrm.ui |
| 20:24:40 | bluebrother | you can safely remove thos properties. |
| 20:24:51 | | Join RockingD [0] (n=sergey@ppp91-76-105-64.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) |
| 20:24:58 | | Join BigMac [0] (n=BigMac@c-71-234-95-131.hsd1.ct.comcast.net) |
| 20:25:17 | amiconn | dan_a: Around half of the gain is due to implementing disk poweroff on 1st..3rd gen - and that could have been done months ago. The port pin was known and documented in the ipl wiki |
| 20:25:22 | bluebrother | and for the question earlier, I use qt 4.3.0 on linux and the same version (statically built) on windows |
| 20:25:49 | dan_a | amiconn: Hint taken about the runtime test ;) Do we have a list of what the bits in DEV_EN and DEV_EN2 represent? The IPL wiki isn't always accurate |
| 20:26:07 | amiconn | The other half is due to switching off clock for unused components within the PP5002. Found that by coincidence due to a slight flaw in the 1st/2nd gen firmware |
| 20:26:42 | amiconn | I know that the ipl wiki isn't always accurate |
| 20:27:08 | DerPapst | sadly... and no one fixes it :-/ |
| 20:27:15 | amiconn | Unfortunately we don't have a list of DEV_EN(2) bits - and we can only try to figure out those bits which remain set by now |
| 20:27:24 | | Quit ender` (" Cynics regarded everybody as equally corrupt... Idealists regarded everybody as equally corrupt, except themselves. -- Rober) |
| 20:27:49 | amiconn | 2 bits I know for sure (and one of these is not set, and wasn't set before) |
| 20:27:57 | | Join son1 [0] (n=megsona@80.187.214.101) |
| 20:28:25 | | Part son1 |
| 20:28:31 | amiconn | ...the bits that enable the built-in LCD controller (not used) and the LCD bridge controller (used in all grayscale ipods) |
| 20:31:53 | | Quit RockingD (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 20:32:57 | | Join WGC [0] (n=chatzill@198.232.70.10) |
| 20:33:12 | | Join ender` [0] (i=krneki@84-255-206-8.static.dsl.t-2.net) |
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| 20:40:31 | | Quit tchan (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
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| 20:40:52 | | Nick alien___ is now known as majeru (n=cris@panzer.utcluj.ro) |
| 20:43:13 | WGC | I just installed Rockbox |
| 20:43:44 | dionoea | congratulations! |
| 20:43:51 | | Join RockingD [0] (n=sergey@ppp91-76-104-125.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) |
| 20:44:11 | WGC | I can't access the MP3 player via windows now |
| 20:44:16 | WGC | Says Unknown Device |
| 20:44:29 | WGC | It runs ok otherwise |
| 20:44:36 | Thundercloud | Haha |
| 20:44:37 | Thundercloud | Version of windows? |
| 20:44:47 | | Quit robin0800 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 20:44:47 | WGC | xp |
| 20:44:54 | Thundercloud | Shouldn't happen |
| 20:44:59 | Thundercloud | XP ships with UMS drivers. |
| 20:45:01 | pixelma | I guess you have a Sansa? |
| 20:45:01 | dan_a | WGC: At a guess you'll need to boot into the original firmware to transfer files |
| 20:45:14 | WGC | How do I do that? |
| 20:45:25 | dan_a | Which device do you have? |
| 20:45:31 | | Quit My_Sic ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org") |
| 20:45:31 | WGC | sansa e250 |
| 20:45:36 | | Join tchan [0] (n=tchan@lunar-linux/developer/tchan) |
| 20:45:52 | dan_a | Hold |<< as you boot (this is in the manual) |
| 20:45:58 | WGC | k |
| 20:46:06 | WGC | I hope they can work the kinks out eventually |
| 20:46:23 | WGC | I was so eager to install Rockbox that I'm a hospital waiting room. |
| 20:46:34 | WGC | My mother has an operation today |
| 20:46:35 | WGC | Not me.:P |
| 20:50:46 | | Quit datasleep (Connection timed out) |
| 20:51:08 | WGC | I generally think that the Rockbox firmware uses up less battery than the default one, it doesn't have that glossy colorful look |
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| 21:00 |
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| 21:03:24 | WGC_ | I should eventually organize my MP3 collection into genres |
| 21:03:38 | WGC_ | 20 gigs of just mp3s in one folder is a tad much |
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| 21:05:54 | WGC_ | sporf? |
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| 21:19:57 | austriancoder | can we have some marcos like __init and __exit (linux kernel modules) in rockbox? __init is defined as __attribute__ ((__section__ (".init.text"))) - I have the following wish: in the usb stack i have host drivers and device drivers and everybody has a function like usb_<drivername>_init and need to be called. First i thought I could make something equalent to plugins -> e.g. serial.usbd and put them in a dir and load of them at stack init. But I d |
| 21:19:57 | austriancoder | r loaded at the same time. And this is needed, when I connect e.g. second soundcard and keyboard. Has anybody an idea? |
| 21:22:00 | Domonoky | hm.. but you will have to limit the amout of drivers which can be loaded, because of no dynamic memory.. |
| 21:23:18 | austriancoder | Domonoky: only one device driver can active and host drivers will clean out when they not needed |
| 21:24:16 | * | preglow listens to his wma file |
| 21:24:53 | Domonoky | but you want more then one host driver ? |
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| 21:26:13 | * | Domonoky would just limit this for either one host or one device driver aktiv, atleast for now.. we can extend this later, when its fully working :-) |
| 21:27:06 | austriancoder | If I connect rockbox device to usb hub I could have more then 1 host driver active. The design of the stack allows this. If I have all drivers in a dir e.g. .rockbox/drivers/usb/ and a new device connects to host, I load every driver, ask him: can you handle new device, if not go to the next, if yes use the driver |
| 21:27:10 | preglow | Buschel: hiya, still hanging in there? :) |
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| 21:28:07 | Domonoky | austriancoder: thats nice.. but it will not be easy to have multiple "usb plugins" running.. |
| 21:28:47 | austriancoder | Domonoky: if I compile them in e.g. rockbox.mi4 then it is no problem |
| 21:29:26 | Domonoky | if you compile it in, then its not a problem.. its only a problem if you load them dynamically |
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| 21:30:13 | austriancoder | I know... hmmm |
| 21:30:44 | Domonoky | so i would compile them in for now.. we can change this, when the stack is working.. |
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| 21:39:53 | rasher | Bagder: had any chance to look at the repeated LANG_BOOL_SETTINGS_YES from genlang? |
| 21:50:54 | nerochiaro | saratoga: hi, do you have a minute ? i'm working at porting WMA decoder and having some issues |
| 21:51:05 | pixelma | perrikwp: I think I read you have a Mini 1st gen? |
| 21:54:32 | saratoga | nerochiaro: sure whats up |
| 21:54:38 | perrikwp | yes |
| 21:55:34 | DerPapst | amiconn: pixelma fund a volunteer :) |
| 21:55:39 | DerPapst | *found |
| 21:55:56 | pixelma | perrikwp: sounded like amiconn wanted to test something on a 1st gen mini |
| 21:56:14 | perrikwp | ok i would be glad to help |
| 21:56:38 | pixelma | or let someone test... hope that gets his attention now ;) |
| 21:56:38 | DerPapst | perrikwp: can you compile rockbox? |
| 21:56:53 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 21:56:53 | perrikwp | yes |
| 21:57:05 | DerPapst | great... wait a sec... |
| 21:57:09 | nerochiaro | saratoga: well,since i'm using a different ASF parser, i need to make sure setup the data for the WMA decoder correctly. does the decoder need all the payloads from ASF packets to be lined up in a single continuous buffer ? |
| 21:57:36 | DerPapst | perrikwp: ally this patch amiconn.dyndns.org/lcd_test.diff">http://amiconn.dyndns.org/lcd_test.diff |
| 21:57:43 | perrikwp | ok |
| 21:58:12 | nerochiaro | saratoga: that's what the rockbox codec seems to be doing, however i'm not sure i'm doing it properly since the decoding of the first block is failing |
| 21:58:29 | DerPapst | perrikwp: <amiconn> With that build, first enter "View I/O Ports" and note the 2 LCD register values. Then enter "View HW Info". That should put the LCD into suspend for 2 seconds, then wakeup |
| 21:58:36 | nerochiaro | saratoga: does it need only the payload data, or also the payload header ? or some other info ? |
| 21:59:00 | DerPapst | perrikwp: <amiconn> Re-check the LCD registers afterwards (they might be different if I made a mistake in my RE research) |
| 21:59:33 | saratoga | nerochiaro: yes, i believe linuxstb's parser does that |
| 21:59:50 | saratoga | at least his comments imply that hes memcpying each packet into a continuous buffer |
| 21:59:51 | merbanan | nerochiaro: you need to init the codec with the extradata |
| 21:59:52 | perrikwp | i don't have time to compile it right now as i have to leave for an hour or two but i can test after i'm back. is that ok if i come back with results later? |
| 22:00 |
| 22:00:15 | saratoga | merbanan: you're the guy in the ffmpeg channel? |
| 22:00:35 | merbanan | last time I checked |
| 22:00:40 | saratoga | which wiki |
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| 22:00:59 | nerochiaro | merbanan: what extra data ? i'm not sure how am i expected to pass it to the wma codec. the init function requires only a context struct point. should i fill anything in that context ? |
| 22:01:01 | saratoga | i don't follow ffmpeg i only modify their code |
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| 22:01:54 | merbanan | http://wiki.multimedia.cx/index.php?title=Asf |
| 22:02:01 | nerochiaro | saratoga: i have seen these comments, but i can't understand what parts of the packet he's actually copying |
| 22:02:05 | saratoga | nerochiaro: as i recall, linuxstb's parser loads a few things into a struct, stuff like bitrate, length, etc thats needed by wma_init |
| 22:02:40 | nerochiaro | saratoga: that would be the waveformatext structure. i fill that too |
| 22:03:03 | merbanan | nerochiaro: read the beginning of the wma decoder source in ffmpeg, there you will understand what I'm talking about |
| 22:03:22 | DerPapst | perrikwp: sure |
| 22:03:24 | nerochiaro | albeit yours has two extra fields in respect to mine, but you never use them anywhere. but i need to double check that structure |
| 22:03:33 | nerochiaro | merbanan: ok, i'll look |
| 22:03:48 | saratoga | nerochiaro: which asf parser are you using anyway? |
| 22:04:01 | perrikwp | ok i'll be back in a hour or two hopefully |
| 22:04:07 | merbanan | nerochiaro: and what are you porting too ? |
| 22:04:14 | nerochiaro | saratoga: one made by one of the xmms2 folks. http://code.google.com/p/libasf/source |
| 22:04:22 | saratoga | oh ok |
| 22:04:29 | saratoga | ours is based on libasf very losely |
| 22:04:44 | saratoga | i've been meaning to ask about that one, do you know if it supports seeking correctly? |
| 22:05:05 | nerochiaro | saratoga: appearently it does, but i have not yet double checked with the author |
| 22:05:43 | nerochiaro | merbanan: i'm trying to port the rockbox WMA codec to an xmms2 plugin that will be used on a Neuros OSD |
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| 22:10:13 | nerochiaro | saratoga: i'm also trying to use the freestanding decoder you have pointed me from your homepage, but i am not sure what asf libary should i use with it |
| 22:10:23 | saratoga | nerochiaro: i don't think libasf can seek correctly in VBR files FYI |
| 22:10:31 | saratoga | at least the code doesn't look like it can |
| 22:10:52 | saratoga | nerochiaro: the zip has the asf parser built in |
| 22:10:56 | nerochiaro | saratoga: and the one in rockbox can ? |
| 22:11:02 | saratoga | not yet |
| 22:11:08 | saratoga | i'm working on it now |
| 22:11:24 | saratoga | we currently parse the time stamp info, but our seeks are inaccurate for some reason |
| 22:11:43 | saratoga | as far as i can tell, i'm doing the same thing as ffmpeg, but it doesn't work for me |
| 22:11:51 | nerochiaro | saratoga: the one in rockbox seems pretty mixed up with the rest of the plugin code though, it doesn't look very weel separated |
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| 22:12:03 | saratoga | its not quite the same as in rockbox |
| 22:12:08 | saratoga | originally it was a seperate app |
| 22:12:10 | nerochiaro | saratoga: and i don't see any asf source in that zip file |
| 22:12:18 | saratoga | which zip are you looking at? |
| 22:12:27 | nerochiaro | http://www.duke.edu/~mgg6/rockbox/wmadeci.zip |
| 22:12:55 | saratoga | opps |
| 22:12:58 | saratoga | let me make a new zip |
| 22:13:46 | nerochiaro | saratoga: thanks |
| 22:14:15 | nerochiaro | saratoga: that would help a lot in finding out what the wma expects |
| 22:14:45 | nerochiaro | saratoga: also, how old is that source ? it seems pretty easy to retrofit from the rockbox one, at a quick glance |
| 22:15:03 | nerochiaro | er, with the rockbox on |
| 22:15:24 | saratoga | nerochiaro: i resynced it to rockbox last week |
| 22:15:45 | saratoga | though the functions are closer to ffmpeg then rockbox (it stilld ecodes one superframe at a time) |
| 22:15:51 | saratoga | try the link again |
| 22:15:55 | saratoga | should include the parser now |
| 22:16:14 | saratoga | sorry the code is a mess, i use that one specifically for dumping decoder state data to disk |
| 22:16:23 | saratoga | its the only reason i keep it synced with rockbox |
| 22:16:59 | nerochiaro | it makes sense, i will use it for that purpose too |
| 22:18:09 | nerochiaro | saratoga: it seems still to not contain asf sources |
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| 22:20:21 | saratoga | http://www.duke.edu/~mgg6/rockbox/wmadeci2.zip |
| 22:20:32 | saratoga | stupid caching |
| 22:21:11 | nerochiaro | ok, looks good now |
| 22:22:00 | saratoga | sorry i'm evasive about what the decoder expects, to be honest i didn't really look to carefully at that |
| 22:22:29 | saratoga | that stuff didn't need much effort to make it fixed point so i didn't pay much attention to how it worked |
| 22:22:57 | nerochiaro | saratoga: no problem, maybe i can find out a way to factor out your current asf parser and use that |
| 22:23:16 | saratoga | it shouldn't be hard |
| 22:23:16 | nerochiaro | saratoga: or find out from the freestanding decoder what it really needds |
| 22:23:25 | preglow | did anyone look at the codec relink problem yet? |
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| 22:23:41 | saratoga | when i switched from ffmpeg to our asf parser a while back it took me about 30 minutes of trial and error to do it |
| 22:23:46 | nerochiaro | saratoga: no offense but the libasf seems much cleaner thought |
| 22:23:46 | saratoga | theres only minor differences |
| 22:24:10 | saratoga | talk to linuxstb about that |
| 22:24:16 | nerochiaro | hehe, will do |
| 22:24:21 | saratoga | our parser continues to have issues, but it also uses massively less memory |
| 22:24:32 | saratoga | which i think was the reason linuxstb wrote it |
| 22:24:42 | saratoga | preglow: what issue is that |
| 22:24:50 | nerochiaro | how massively less ? i mean, roughly speaking |
| 22:25:25 | saratoga | i think libasf buffers someting like 128k worth of data or something equally ridiculous |
| 22:25:29 | saratoga | maybe more |
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| 22:26:20 | nerochiaro | saratoga: ah well, that's probably not going to be a problem for me, but i understand |
| 22:26:27 | preglow | saratoga: that you need to "make" twice for codec to fully build after changes |
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| 22:38:30 | nerochiaro | saratoga: still around ? |
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| 22:44:18 | saratoga | nerochiaro: yeah i'm here |
| 22:45:28 | nerochiaro | saratoga: do i understand right that the rockbox decoder basically splits the superframe decoding in several steps, while the freestanding one does it all in one go ? |
| 22:45:47 | nerochiaro | but using the same code |
| 22:45:49 | salty-horse | shouldn't the mandelbrot plugin be classified as "demo" instead of "game"? |
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| 22:46:18 | saratoga | nerochiaro: thats correct |
| 22:46:25 | saratoga | superframes can potientially be very large |
| 22:46:45 | saratoga | i think 10s of thousands of samples |
| 22:46:55 | saratoga | so we do one frame at a time |
| 22:47:15 | nerochiaro | one frame can still be lots of samples though ? |
| 22:47:26 | saratoga | one frame is usally 4096 samples |
| 22:47:34 | saratoga | though i'm pretty sure that can vary |
| 22:48:09 | saratoga | the unit the decoder itself deals with is the block |
| 22:48:10 | nerochiaro | ok |
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| 22:50:05 | n00b | this question has probably been answered a million times, but can someone explain to me how to configure shuffle so that it randomly chooses a directory and file each time you skip a song? |
| 22:50:50 | n00b | i tried shuffle=yes and autochangedirectory=random and repeat=off but it doesn't seem to work...it descends the directories in order |
| 22:51:21 | Bagder | make a single big playlist, enable shuffle. smile |
| 22:52:05 | n00b | so you have to build a playlist each time you add new files? |
| 22:52:31 | Bagder | you don't have to do anything |
| 22:52:36 | Bagder | it was a suggestion |
| 22:52:53 | n00b | so there's another way? |
| 22:53:59 | rasher | That's how I'd do it as well. |
| 22:54:24 | n00b | how do you build a recursive playlist from a certain root directory? |
| 22:54:50 | rasher | There's a setting for recursively adding files from subdirectories |
| 22:55:04 | rasher | (Either always or ask each time) |
| 22:56:07 | * | bluebrother points to the manual at http://www.rockbox.org/manual.shtml and smiles :) |
| 22:56:41 | n00b | i tried the manual...it isn't perfectly clear what combination of flags you need to do what I'm trying to do. |
| 22:57:00 | n00b | in fact, no combination of flags will do what I want...I have to build a playlist and shuffle the playlist |
| 22:57:03 | bluebrother | well, it's part of the concept: as Rockbox is playlist based you'll always shuffle a playlist. |
| 22:57:18 | n00b | thanks..thats clear now |
| 22:57:29 | bluebrother | if you play a folder it's a playlist too (this dynamic playlist thingy) |
| 22:57:52 | bluebrother | yeah, that is common to cause confusion. |
| 22:58:52 | bluebrother | Domonoky: around? |
| 22:58:59 | n00b | rockbox is sweet ...I donated to show my love...but that is one feature of the original firmware I'll miss...being able to just shuffle the whole disk sans playlist |
| 22:59:01 | webguest49 | austriancoder: I'm looking a disassembly of sansa e250 firmware (v1.00.12 EU).. I don't see any references to 0xc5000600 (USB_CONTROL) |
| 22:59:52 | austriancoder | webguest49: thanks for this info :) Can you figure out the init of the usb controller? 0xc5000xxx |
| 23:00 |
| 23:00:10 | n1s | n00b: that's easy in rockbox. if the file browser is in the root, go to the main menu -> playlists -> create playlist, then turn on shuffle, done |
| 23:00:25 | stripwax | n00b - you can play all music (with shuffle) from the database.. |
| 23:00:36 | stripwax | don't need a playlist |
| 23:01:10 | n00b | thanks stripwax...is the database update automatically when I move files on and off the drive? |
| 23:01:26 | bluebrother | n00b: you can enable auto-update. |
| 23:01:27 | austriancoder | webguest49: can you tell me what tools I need to search myselfe? |
| 23:01:33 | n1s | wow this voice crash bug thingy is really odd, I could reproduce it reliably this morning by just starting up with resume playback and entering the menu and it would hang, now it's entirely reliable... |
| 23:01:46 | | Quit ender (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 23:01:56 | bluebrother | you'll need to put these files to play again −− resuming the old playlist won't find new files (as the resume info is the dynamic playlist) |
| 23:01:58 | webguest49 | austriancoder: the adresses that have references (directly) are: C5000140,C5000148,C5000154,C500015C,C5000184,C50001A4,C50001A8,C50001AC,C50001B0,C50001BC,C50001C0 |
| 23:02:29 | webguest49 | austriancoder: I'm using IDA |
| 23:02:34 | n1s | does anyone know why or where we stop playback when we change language? |
| 23:02:35 | low_light | Bagder: is sansapatcher the only way load a rockbox bootloader onto a sansa? I'm trying to figure out how to get a bootloader on the c200. |
| 23:02:41 | * | DerPapst wonders who webguest49 is.... |
| 23:03:12 | n00b | thanks for tips folks |
| 23:03:13 | n00b | over and out |
| 23:03:15 | Bagder | low_light: that's the only way we offer these days, but you can just put the mi4 to the unit in recovery mode |
| 23:03:15 | | Quit n00b ("CGI:IRC 0.5.7 (2005/06/19)") |
| 23:03:19 | austriancoder | webguest49: okay.. I own IDA, but ever failed to find references to 0xc500xxx |
| 23:03:40 | Bagder | low_light: bootloader mi4 I mean |
| 23:05:20 | | Join homielowe [0] (n=chatzill@66.183.75.253) |
| 23:06:01 | webguest49 | austriancoder: I use some IDC scripts to 1) make a "usb" segment 2 |
icon identifies that the person is a core developer (has commit access).