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#rockbox log for 2008-01-02

00:01:48 Join Cannoli [0] (
00:03:48 Quit Cannoli (Client Quit)
00:04:20saratogaare we trying to keep libfadd synced with the official source?
00:04:27saratogabecause the code right now is just bizzare
00:04:34 Part peppo ("part")
00:05:05saratogalike the way it checks for non power of 2 block sizes in the FFT even though we only have tables for 128 and 1024 sample blocks
00:05:44saratogaoh never mind that #define out of the compiled code
00:06:09linuxstbI think preglow was working on syncing it.
00:07:36 Quit Thundercloud_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:07:45saratogado they make text editors that can be configured to shade out code inside certain #define blocks?
00:09:05krazykityou could probably modify the hilighting scripts of your favorite editor to do that
00:11:29 Join Llorean [0] (n=llorean@rockbox/administrator/Llorean)
00:13:43amiconnYay, now I have an optimised *and* working version of my SH1 grey phase blit :)
00:14:53linuxstbHow much IRAM is left?
00:15:20amiconn80 bytes on recorders
00:15:33amiconn(with reducing MAXTHREADS to 10)
00:15:49linuxstbHow much does a thread take?
00:18:03amiconn80 bytes of IRAM taken per thread
00:18:17amiconnRight now it's a perfect fit when not reducing MAXTTHREADS
00:18:44amiconnBut compiler differences could make it fail *very* easily
00:18:53 Quit WeaponX (Connection timed out)
00:19:34 Quit Willaken ("Leaving")
00:20:32amiconnMy new function needs 204 bytes of IRAM. I also saved 4 bytes in another function, leaving a net iram usage increase of 120 bytes (with reduced MAXTHREADS)
00:20:53amiconnI tend to think that the thread management structures don't need to be in iram on SH1
00:21:11amiconnIf we take them out, that would save 900 (or 820) bytes of iram
00:22:43 Join eigma [0] (i=eigma@
00:25:44 Join lassesdatamaskin [0] (
00:25:50 Quit thewtex (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:27:23 Quit ctaylorr (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:28:28 Quit soap (Remote closed the connection)
00:29:07 Quit Robin0800 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:29:25 Join picard_pwns_kirk [0] (n=ppk@unaffiliated/ppklaptop/x-00001)
00:29:50picard_pwns_kirkwhat are some feasible button mappings for the RockBoy plugin?
00:29:55picard_pwns_kirk(on the ipod nano)
00:31:26saratogais libfaad short on IRAM?
00:32:04saratogalooking at the code i see it allocates a 4KB buffer in IRAM that could easily be shared with another buffer
00:32:12 Part picard_pwns_kirk ("In Soviet Russia, channel leave YOU!!")
00:34:25amiconnlinuxstb: I found another place where we can save some iram
00:35:02amiconnlcd_update() and lcd_update_rect() are in iram right now. Taking them out there lowers performance by only ~0.6%
00:35:20amiconn...but it saves 288 bytes of iram
00:36:03amiconnThe crucial point for performance is that lcd_write_data() is in iram (and it still is, of course)
00:37:41 Join ptw419 [0] (
00:38:00linuxstbsaratoga: I've no idea, but it's always good to reduce IRAM usage if you can - so feel free to commit a fix ;)
00:38:56*amiconn thinks that those performance test plugins were a really good idea
00:40:13linuxstbamiconn: I've another LCD question - is it possible on greyscale targets to implement an lcd_clear_viewport() function with lcd_fillrect? I confess to not fully understanding the drawmodes...
00:41:11amiconnI don't remember the full details right now, but I think it would be possible
00:41:26amiconnThe drawmode would need to be changed temporarily
00:41:53linuxstbWould BG+INVERSEVID be correct?
00:42:13amiconnIt depends on what drawmode is currently active
00:43:55 Join soap [0] (
00:44:16 Quit XavierGr (Nick collision from services.)
00:44:29 Join XavierGr [0] (
00:44:48linuxstbAh yes...
00:45:07amiconnIf the current mode does *not*
00:45:22amiconninclude INVERSEVID, you'd need BG+INVERSEVID
00:45:40amiconnAnd if the current mode includes INVERSEVID, you'd need (plain) FG
00:45:49csc`does the flash memory in their respected ipod models have a specific amount of read cycles?
00:47:02 Quit |elppa| (Connection timed out)
00:47:18linuxstbamiconn: Thanks - that makes sense.
00:48:22 Quit obo ("bye")
00:49:27amiconnOf course you could simplify it by setting: temp_drawmode = (~drawmode & DRMODE_INVERSEVID) | DRMODE_SOLID;
00:50:19amiconnThat inverts the INVERSEVID bit and sets the basic mode to SOLID
00:50:31 Quit soap ()
00:50:51 Quit faemir (Remote closed the connection)
00:54:01 Quit merbanan (Remote closed the connection)
00:56:42 Quit RoC_MasterMind ("Leaving")
00:57:28 Join |elppa| [0] (
00:58:01 Join webguest82 [0] (n=458c877f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
00:58:13 Quit |elppa| (SendQ exceeded)
01:00:32 Part webguest82
01:00:45 Join midge1 [0] (
01:00:51 Join stripwax [0] (
01:01:30 Quit ptw419 ()
01:03:44***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
01:08:27 Quit billenium ("Leaving")
01:10:31 Join billenium [0] (
01:10:43billeniumdoes rockbox have a text viewer thing?
01:10:55LloreanI do believe it's mentioned in the manual
01:11:12billeniumi see
01:13:18markunbillenium: there are some things I would like to improve in the viewer, but it works quite nice already
01:13:44stripwaxsoap - for the logs - my original firmware lasted somewhere between 21 and 23 hours (missed the actual shutoff). So we can rule out my battery dying. Will determine if remaining main difference between your runtime and mine is vorbis vs mp3 or peakmeters-vs-main menu
01:13:47billeniumanything like the one Apples firmware has?
01:14:11stripwaxwhat does the Apple one do?
01:14:34billeniumits text reader is straight forward
01:14:42billeniumand when you hit next, i believe it goes to the next file
01:15:22stripwaxrockbox text reader just views on file at a time
01:15:32billeniumi see
01:15:35stripwaxtry it
01:16:20 Join karashata [0] (n=Kimi@
01:17:09stripwaxbillenium - manual page for text viewer is here:
01:17:36billeniumi have to put rockbox back on
01:17:40billeniumi restored my iPod...
01:18:02billeniumi would suggest iPL to no one...
01:18:25 Quit midgey (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
01:19:04 Quit mf0102 ("Verlassend")
01:20:26 Quit Axio (Remote closed the connection)
01:20:49 Join Axio [0] (
01:22:42 Join Anon-E-Moose [0] (
01:23:17Anon-E-MooseUgh, my iPod's not being recognized by Vista :(
01:23:50Anon-E-MoosePops up a whole slew of driver notifications and when I've canceled or humoured them, it still doesn't show my iPod as a removable drive
01:24:18Anon-E-MooseAnd in case it matters, it's a Colour and I have reset it several times now
01:25:03*Anon-E-Moose is frusturated and hungry.
01:25:36billeniumWhered you get your name from Anon-E-Moose?
01:25:39Anon-E-MooseFGSFDS. It just showed up :(
01:25:54 Join webguest74 [0] (n=50ec14ec@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
01:25:55Anon-E-Moosebillenium - one of the *chans
01:25:59 Quit salty-horse ("Leaving")
01:26:03billeniumthought so
01:26:09billeniumor you where a recovering alcoholic
01:26:13Anon-E-MooseI have supper on the table, I'm going to smash my iPod if it disappears
01:26:30Anon-E-Moosebillenium - Not old enough to be a recovering alchy :P
01:26:39Anon-E-MooseI can be a potential alchy, though :P
01:26:43billeniumso you would think..
01:28:23billeniumsay i wanted to put a file/video/image in Plugins -> Demos... how would i do that?
01:28:50 Quit lassesdatamaskin (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
01:29:57webguest74hi , I would like to know if i can do something to avoid 'missing base wad' message on my old ipod when i want to run doom through rockbox, please.
01:30:26krazykitwebguest74, read the instructions for properly installing doom
01:30:26linuxstbInstall the base wad?
01:30:35*billenium giggles at webguest74
01:30:48krazykiti believe they're on the PluginDoom wiki page
01:33:31 Quit spiorf (Remote closed the connection)
01:34:16 Quit phossy ("Ex-Chat")
01:34:32webguest74i did so but unfortunately it still doesn't want to work well
01:35:13krazykitperhaps you missed a step? try going through and carefully redoing the steps
01:35:21webguest74yes indeed krazykit
01:35:35 Join soap [50] (n=soap@rockbox/staff/soap)
01:36:33*csc` giggles at webguest74
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01:37:43 Quit Anon-E-Moose ("Thanks, solved my own problem")
01:38:29 Join MethoS- [0] (
01:38:58webguest74!/ i used this way very carfully
01:40:06Lloreanwebguest74: Use the official manual.
01:40:07webguest74sorry my english is not very fluant..:)
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01:42:25csc`those steps make me wanna cry :(
01:42:30 Quit waldo ("Konversation terminated!")
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01:43:19webguest74is it possible that my ipod is too old ( even if rockbox works on it?
01:43:30csc`check the wiki
01:44:34billeniumwebguest74: althought that website is good for making "things"... you cant be the manual. Did you try the manual?
01:45:21csc`im so lame i stuck rockbox's source on my nano to read
01:47:20webguest74LIorean and csc thanks i see it is very well writen i am going to read it . thanks forr the advise
01:48:53 Quit Thundercloud__ (Remote closed the connection)
01:48:58webguest74thanks have a good day . gabriel.
01:50:43billeniumwebguest74: i just put DOOM on my ipod nano o_0 It wasn't too hard.
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01:57:47 Quit moos ("Rockbox rules the DAP world")
01:58:54 Quit ender` (" On-line, adj. The idea that a human being should always be accessible to a computer.")
02:09:29 Join fungus [0] (
02:16:02fungusHello- I am having trouble loading bitmaps for plugins. I understand rb->lcd_bitmap_part(my_fb_data ... but I don't understand how the bitmap finds its way into the variable.
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02:27:07 Part cg
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02:49:46 Quit tvelocity ("Αποχώρησε")
02:55:38 Join tim_ [0] (
02:55:59 Nick tim_ is now known as timtip (
02:57:28timtipI'm in a bit of trouble i think... - I tried to reload the bootloader, and now my ipod just flashes the apple on and off... can't reboot can't do aynthing... ;( It is a 30 gig iPod Video - anyone have any suggestions?
02:57:53csc`its trying to reboot itself metinks
02:57:56csc`but it cant
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03:00:31*JdGordon doesnt remember the e200 being such a bitch to get open :(
03:01:05timtipyeah, but how do i get it to quit? I've tried everything i know... like its in a boot loop
03:01:24JdGordonwhats news?
03:01:29JdGordonwrong window
03:02:14soaptimtip, Menu+Select to force a hard reboot. You should see it shutdown then flicker back to life.
03:02:34timtipk, did that, and it doesn't change... just keeps doing it.
03:02:35soaptimtip, as soon as it flickers back to life press and hold Select+Play to force Apple's Disk mode.
03:03:46***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
03:04:39timtipk, it is now saying to please wait very low battery... so i'm waiting for it to get back enough to start it...
03:04:54soapwait hours, not minutes.
03:05:13soapgo watch Family Guy on TBS or something.
03:05:15xnyhpsThat might be causing the reboot-loop, not a broken firmware. Had that too yesterday.
03:05:37xnyhpsThe battery is too empty to continue booting and it fails, and tries again...
03:05:51soapjust chill for a few hours, nobody has ever bricked an iPod - it's cool - see ya in three or so hours.
03:05:54timtipwell, it was full battery when i started...
03:06:01soapjust chill for a few hours, nobody has ever bricked an iPod - it's cool - see ya in three or so hours.
03:06:22csc`soap: what about an ipod TOUCH :P
03:06:32timtipwell - ok, but now it's been about 2 hours since this started flickering...
03:06:37soapjust chill for a few hours, nobody has ever bricked an iPod - it's cool - see ya in three or so hours.
03:07:54timtipheh, ok - well - it starts flickering again and now looks like the bottom of the screen is getting heated... discoloration type...
03:08:32csc`sounds like a disk problem
03:08:38soapPlay+Select to force Disk mode.
03:08:48soappress and hold.
03:08:55 Quit csc` ("Powering Off")
03:10:33timtipright, it doesn't do anything... like it doesn't register the button pushes
03:10:41timtipjust keeps flickering
03:13:09 Quit lee-qid (Connection timed out)
03:15:41timtipok, i got it into diskmode... i'm formatting now...
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04:26:41webguest22How do i call a plugin? (Example: I've added an item to a menu and i want that item to start a plugin)
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04:47:59webguest22If i used the plugin_api function "open" to open a .rock file would it initiate the plugin?
04:58:49saratogai think thats just the c open function
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05:03:47***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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06:19:42 Part yeahx
06:19:48ptw419is there any function in rb to draw circles, or any types of shapes?
06:19:55ptw419or even to highlight a selection?
06:22:17JdGordonin a plugin?
06:22:19JdGordonor the core?
06:23:29ptw419i'm trying to get something to highlight a selection
06:23:36JdGordonselection of what?
06:24:16ptw419well i'm trying to modify the S bootloader to allow the user to pick which rockbox kernel they want to load
06:24:32ptw419so i just need something to let the user know which file is chose
06:24:43JdGordonah righto
06:25:07JdGordonlcd_put_cursor is for charcell i think
06:25:27JdGordonyou want to change the style flags for the line when you want to show the selection
06:25:37 Quit psycho_maniac (" Logging Off.....")
06:25:42JdGordonhave a look at apps/gui/list.c and find where it does the drawing
06:25:46ptw419ah good idea
06:25:49ptw419ok thanks
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06:59:50 Quit bardia ("[BX] Time wasted: 4 days 2 hours 45 minutes 11 seconds 3 milliseconds")
07:03:24 Join khermans [0] (
07:03:37khermansi finally got that Rockbox article up on
07:03:49***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
07:03:52khermansit is aimed at n00bs...
07:05:15krazykiti noticed an error. rockbox won't destroy your device forever.
07:06:42krazykitand the fact that the script installs an unofficial build...
07:06:50JdGordonoy good... another guide which doesnt tell the user to use the official installer...
07:07:28krazykitnot only that, you're only supporting the ipod video, which isn't explicitly stated
07:08:07krazykityou're also using the ipodlinux bootloader? geez, anyone using this won't be able to get any official help at all.
07:11:41 Quit JdGordon ("Konversation terminated!")
07:11:57khermansi tell them about the official installer
07:12:21khermanskrazykit, some people want one click install on iPod
07:12:30krazykitand rbutil will do that.
07:12:39khermanskrazykit, your automated installer failed for me
07:12:57khermanskrazykit, i had to rebiuild from svn to get it working
07:13:20khermanskrazykit, i link to the automated installer and warn them up front
07:13:52khermansi donated $20 to you guys earlier, loved the project, but you have to keep in mind that some people are not too bright
07:14:05khermansthe warning is for "broken" in terms of "i have no data"
07:14:16khermansi don't want people to lose their data
07:14:49krazykityou don't, however, warn the user that by using your script they can't get support from Rockbox, nor do you tell them what build they need to use to update
07:14:51LloreanYes, but you really shouldn't call what you're doing "Installing Rockbox" if it's both an unofficial build and bootloader
07:15:01LloreanThat's like handing someone an Ubuntu CD and saying "Here's your Debian install disc"
07:15:35khermansLlorean, i warn them though and say "try the automated installer"
07:16:16khermansLlorean, i would relate it more to handing someone a customized distro
07:16:28Lloreankhermans: Yes, but you lie about WHY you do it.
07:16:37khermansLlorean, where do i lie, i can fix it?
07:16:38LloreanUnofficial builds are no easier to install than official build
07:16:51LloreanYou could just as easily have installed an official one with your script.
07:16:52khermansLlorean, i told you already, your rbutil is broken
07:16:59krazykitkhermans, your little script could easily have used the official and used ipodpatcher
07:16:59LloreanYes, but our ipodpatcher isn't
07:17:10LloreanThe ipodpatcher tool is actually Rockbox's tool
07:17:17LloreaniPL just bundles it with their bootloader instead of ours
07:17:18 Quit miepchen^schlaf ("Verlassend")
07:17:25khermanseither way, just wanted to get some press out
07:17:34LloreanYes, but you've done so in a way that's very misleading
07:17:35khermansi like the project
07:17:49LloreanYou don't say "This install method means that the Rockbox support team will not help you" as far as I can see
07:18:13LloreanAnd you've claimed that the reason for doing it your way is to make the install easier, when in fact the steps would be *exactly* the same for an official build using the manual install method in the manual
07:18:26khermansbut i didn't know this ahead of time
07:18:33LloreanThen you went on to suggest it could destroy their iPod forever
07:18:40khermansonce your automated installer broke, i came here, and no one was around
07:18:51LloreanWhen in fact Rockbox installation is unable to destroy an iPod, or even corrupt the disk, if performed according to the manual
07:18:59LloreanAnd is in fact less likely to damage your iPod than an Apple firmware update
07:19:01khermansLlorean, people do dumb things
07:19:16LloreanYes, but you make it sound like Rockbox could do it.
07:19:17khermanslike dd if=/dev/foo of=/dev/sdb2
07:19:18LloreanRockbox can't
07:19:28LloreanUsing dd could ruin an iPod yes
07:19:31LloreanBut that has nothing to do with Rockbox
07:19:31khermansLlorean, ok i give you the power and you rewrite it
07:19:41LloreanAnd even that can't destroy an iPod forever.
07:19:50LloreanAll it can do is require rebuilding the disk contents.
07:19:55khermansLlorean, pm me for info and ill let you rewrite it
07:20:19LloreanI've told you what's wrong with it.
07:20:26LloreanChange the information to be factual.
07:20:43LloreanI'm curious where you got the idea that it could destroy an iPod forever, in fact.
07:21:12khermansLlorean, jeez this scenario is just like end user comes to #rockbox and says "yeah i like rockbox, but you guys dont support WMV playing, this sucks
07:21:37 Join countrymonkeyweb [0] (n=4b05639a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
07:21:44khermansLlorean, dd'ing over the data would likely result in user having to go to Appple
07:21:46LloreanNo, it's like an end user going around saying Rockbox does support WMV, and then we have to pick up the pieces when people start posting in our forums asking how to do it.
07:21:51Lloreankhermans: Nope
07:22:03khermansLlorean, we are not talking about smart guys dude
07:22:08Lloreankhermans: We have a page in our wiki describing how to restore an iPod should you completely erase the partition table
07:22:14khermansLlorean, no one is going to read it
07:22:23khermansLlorean, i read it
07:22:27countrymonkeywebI had an idea. Why don't we get rbutil's translation function to use rockbox langv1? It would make it simpler for translators.
07:22:45Lloreankhermans: So what does "no one's going to read it" have to do with anything?
07:22:50khermanscountrymonkeyweb, you guys should rls a new build of rbutil that works
07:22:56LloreanIf someone's stupid enough to dd something to their iPod, what does it have to do with Rockbox anyway?
07:23:10khermansLlorean, that people who are not inquisitive will no read it
07:23:18Lloreanipodpatcher works fine
07:23:22LloreanAnd ipodpatcher is in the bloody manual
07:23:24countrymonkeywebI am not a rbutil dev. You should talk to bluebrother. I just have an idea.
07:23:33khermanscountrymonkeyweb, i rebuilt rbutil to work correclty
07:23:40khermansso the code is fine, just the rls is bad
07:23:56Lloreankhermans: Use real words in here
07:23:58countrymonkeywebI know 0 about this stuff.
07:24:03khermansLlorean, real wordS?
07:24:07LloreanMany of our users are blind or speak other languages, and "rls" is not going to work for them
07:24:26LloreanSeriously, the channel topic isn't kidding
07:24:42scorche(except aboutt he last part)
07:24:42countrymonkeywebIs rbutil offtopic?
07:24:49Lloreancountrymonkeyweb: No.
07:25:06countrymonkeywebAlright, could this idea be considered?
07:25:32Lloreancountrymonkeyweb: langv1 is the old language system. The one that isn't in use any more. I'm not sure what you think rbutil should be doing with it.
07:26:14countrymonkeywebI think rbutil should use langv1 instead of the .ts xml-like files that it uses now.
07:26:48LloreanOh, for the translation of rbutil itself?
07:26:54LloreanI do believe that's the standard Qt translation stuff
07:26:58countrymonkeywebYes! :)
07:27:24countrymonkeywebI would think langv1 would be easier for translators.
07:27:58krazykitcountrymonkeyweb, that's a restriction of Qt, not something that you can really get around easily
07:28:15Lloreancountrymonkeyweb: I don't think so.
07:28:24countrymonkeywebOk. Just thought I would throw that idea out.
07:28:24Lloreancountrymonkeyweb: There's already tools for working with Qt translations
07:28:31LloreanI don't see why we should reinvent the wheel
07:29:13countrymonkeywebI feel that langv1 is easier for translators.
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07:30:33Lloreancountrymonkeyweb: Make a patch to use langv1 then. It needs to be easy enough for programmers to.
07:30:45LloreanProve that it's easier, and people are more likely to consider it
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07:31:42korn788hey whats up i had a question about rockbox
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07:32:25khermansLlorean, i updated the article
07:32:34krazykitkorn788, well, the only way to get an answer is to ask, of course
07:33:08korn788sorry i have an RCA and philps mp3 player and i was going to ask are they supported
07:33:34countrymonkeywebI'll get around to writing the patch when I am not so busy.
07:33:46khermansi hope that rockbox team is not upset with installer script i threw together to make "no brains" installation easier
07:33:49krazykitkorn788, the only supported players are listed on
07:34:01khermanslike i said, i would have geared the article toward rbutil had it worked correctly
07:34:19Lloreankhermans: I don't see what you changed
07:34:28LloreanI did refresh
07:34:34khermanssecond paragraph
07:34:38LloreanIt still says the iPod could be destroyed forever
07:34:51krazykityou changed the link to "automated but buggy" to rbutil?
07:34:53LloreanAnd I still don't see anything saying "You will receive no official support if you follow my steps"
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07:35:12khermansi added that too
07:35:29khermansLlorean, maybe LJ does not immediately publish changes
07:35:41korn788ok thanks for the help i saw this internet show called HAK5 and they talk about rockbox and well i thoght i should try it out
07:35:46Lloreankrazykit's comment is quite accurate.
07:35:55khermanskrazykit, it was always like that
07:36:00LloreanReally, the manual installation should work for everyone.
07:36:10LloreanRButil is only buggy in that it may not autodetect an iPod.
07:36:19khermansLlorean, that is not true
07:36:26khermansit detected my ipod, although not 80
07:36:28Lloreankhermans: The themes site problem was the site being *down*
07:36:34LloreanIt's impossible to distinguish an 80
07:36:47LloreanBecause it's not the disk size we need to distinguish
07:36:49khermansLlorean, yes themese site being down was the issue
07:36:54countrymonkeywebIf you want to try it, may I suggest the simulator. Go to and click on win32 simulators.
07:37:01Lloreankhermans: That's not an RBUtil issue in any way though
07:37:09Lloreankhermans: Your method won't distinguish an 80 properly either
07:37:23khermansLlorean, actually, i got an error even partially hrough installation at the end
07:37:34khermansLlorean, check back here in irc logs, i wrote about it
07:37:35LloreanWell, why didn't you file a bug report on it?
07:37:41khermansLlorean, it is not a bug in svn
07:37:49khermansi verified this
07:37:54khermansso i did no tfiel one
07:37:58LloreanWell, what was the bug?
07:38:07khermansLlorean, let me check my google search history :-)
07:38:23LloreanI mean, so far you've told me "The themes site was down" (not RBUtil) and "It detected my iPod" (which is as good as your script can do)
07:38:45LloreanAnd there's no good reason for your script to use unofficial builds. You still haven't justified that.
07:39:26khermansextra addons, freedoom, custom themes?
07:39:44Lloreanfreedoom works with the official build
07:39:49LloreanSame with many custom themes
07:39:54khermansLlorean, and is installed by default?
07:40:06LloreanThe plugin's there by default
07:40:10LloreanThe .wad files never change
07:40:11khermansincludes the Ubuntu theme i am using?
07:40:18LloreanSo we have them as a separate download for bandwidth reasons
07:40:29LloreanWhat does your theme being included have to do with it being a custom build?
07:40:35LloreanYou could include your theme with a svn build.
07:40:42LloreanAs long as it doesn't require a modified binary for use.
07:41:10LloreanAnd none of that justifies using the iPL bootloader still.
07:41:50LloreanI mean, it just seems like you've gone out of your way to deny them official support
07:43:24khermansLlorean, you keep harping on support
07:43:30khermansLlorean, i went out of my way to make it painless
07:43:39khermansat least initally :-)
07:43:55krazykitand later, it's very painful when they want support.
07:43:59LloreanYes, but "painless" can still be achieved with the official build
07:44:04LloreanSo you can't justify it with painless.
07:44:15Lloreanipodpatcher and unzip are the only two tools needed to install an official build
07:44:49LloreanYour script could just as easily install an official build, with freedoom, as many themes as you wanted as long as they don't require patches, and not deny them the ability to come and ask questions.
07:45:15 Quit countrymonkeyweb ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
07:45:47Lloreankhermans: Even with your updates, the article still says "This is for ease of installation" which is a lie
07:46:02khermansLlorean, why do you call me a liar?
07:46:06LloreanBecause it is.
07:46:07khermansit is for ease of installation
07:46:13khermansLlorean, how not so?
07:46:19LloreanOfficial Rockbox can be installed as easily as ANY custom build
07:46:23krazykitkhermans, what happens when the ipod isn't on /dev/sda or /media/IPOD?
07:46:23khermansyou run one script, and it "just works"
07:46:31khermansthats true
07:46:41LloreanSo "ease of installation" is not why you chose a custom build.
07:46:49LloreanBecause you could've installed the official one just as easily
07:46:59khermanswell i could fix the script sure
07:47:08khermansor tell them how to do manual installation
07:47:28LloreanOr you could change the language so that it doesn't suggest that the official build is harder to install than unofficial ones, just because you didn't read all the documentation and didn't know so yourself.
07:47:46LloreanThere are several ways you could fix it.
07:47:50khermansLlorean, dude i told you it was borked
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07:48:01khermansLlorean, i am looking for error msg now
07:50:04Lloreankhermans: I'm also curious what you're going to do when tdtooke stops hosting unofficial builds.
07:50:26LloreanIn the next day or two, I'm probably going to be closing 1/3 to 1/2 of the patches used in his unofficial builds.
07:50:54LloreanThere's also a very good chance that within a week, almost every single one of those WPSes that requires patches, assuming any of them do, will be incompatible with even the unsupported builds.
07:51:22khermansLlorean, ok i cant find the error in google search, but i posted it here in last few days
07:51:25LloreanReally, in all, that whole script is going to be useful for less than a month.
07:51:28khermanssomeone was helping me through it
07:51:32khermansand suggested i rebuild form svn
07:51:34khermanswhich then worked
07:51:36Lloreankhermans: What does the error have to do with installing the official build?
07:51:49Lloreankhermans: The MANUAL INSTALL doesn't use Rbutil.
07:52:13khermansLlorean, yes yea −− what is the number of required inputs for manual install?
07:52:13Llorean"ipodpatcher&&i&&unzip -d /media/IPOD" could install Rockbox.
07:52:16*khermans goes to check
07:52:28Lloreankhermans: I just told you.
07:53:24khermansLlorean, if rbutil sucks, why not label it beta
07:53:25LloreanAs I've said a half dozen times by now, installing unofficial builds is NOT easier. It's the exact same process as the manual install.
07:53:33Lloreankhermans: BECAUSE ROCKBOX IS UNRELEASED
07:53:33khermanswould have saved me some effort
07:53:39LloreanIf you read the manual, it says DRAFT in the PDF
07:53:42LloreanEVERYTHING is Beta
07:54:06LloreanThat's why we tell people to use the manual install if the automated one doesn't work...
07:54:11khermansyou also have wiki entries on your site which say to install via anothe method
07:54:17LloreanIt's a wiki
07:54:21LloreanStupid people write stupid things
07:54:26khermansLlorean, my point exactly
07:54:34LloreanThat's why we EXPLICITLY tell people to use the manual
07:54:37LloreanAgain, and again, and again
07:54:51khermansLlorean, you should be more clean and not offer two confusing versions then
07:55:08LloreanThe IpodInstallation page says to use the manual
07:55:15khermansif it is so easy one way, make it the only way
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07:55:17LloreanIt has since March
07:55:28Lloreankhermans: Because RBUtil will be easier when it works reliably
07:55:33khermansLlorean, then you should remove the pevious link to that link
07:55:36LloreanWhat Link?
07:55:45khermansLlorean, the ipodinstalation link
07:55:48LloreanWhere is it?
07:55:52LloreanIt's not on the front page
07:55:55khermanslet me find it yet again
07:55:59khermansits on one of the pags
07:56:11LloreanIt's not on the Wiki or Docs index
07:56:15LloreanSo it's buried somewhat deep
07:56:24LloreanAnd the IpodInstallation page has been blank since March
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07:57:25 Join AK-Windows [0] (
07:57:55AK-Windowsany possibility of rockbox being ported to iPhone/iPod touch?
07:58:43LloreanIf someone who owns one does it, sure.
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07:59:19AK-WindowsI own one, where do I start?
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07:59:33LloreanThe NewPorts page in the wiki
08:02:47khermansLlorean, finally found your bad link
08:03:27scorchekhermans: at the top of the page:
08:03:27scorche Note
08:03:27scorcheThis page is no longer maintained. It is recommended that you follow the installation instructions in the Rockbox Manual.
08:03:40khermansscorche, you should merely delete the page then
08:03:46Lloreankhermans: I don't even know who created that page. We can't keep track of every page.
08:04:01khermansLlorean, and as such, you cant keep track of users being misdirected as i was
08:04:05Lloreankhermans: You could go and create thirty new installation pages in the middle of the night, and hide links for them all over, and we wouldn't know about it until someone did something stupi.d
08:04:15Lloreankhermans: We tell users to read the manual. You didn't even read the whole page.
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08:04:24khermansi did read it dude
08:04:27Lloreankhermans: We can't stop users from being stupid, and not reading. We never will be able to force people to use their eyes.
08:04:34Lloreankhermans: You CHOSE to ignore the note?
08:04:35khermansbtw, i found my error from your irc logs
08:04:37khermans"rbutil seems to hang on my IPOD"
08:04:51khermansit got to a certain point, and went no further
08:04:56khermansno error mesages
08:04:59Lloreankhermans: If you did not see the note, you did not read everything. If you saw the note, and followed the instructions anyway, you chose to be stupid: Not my problem.
08:05:01khermansrebuilding from SVN solved it
08:05:10khermansLlorean, what is this #openbsd ?
08:05:17khermansLlorean, chill bro
08:05:36LloreanI can't stop people from dd if=/dev/null of=/dev/sdb, and I can't stop you from ignoring warnings.
08:05:59khermansLlorean, just trying to be friendly an point out some things −− no need to make me out as an idiot because i didn't know which docs ot follow and didn't read all material created by rockbox
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08:06:07scorchekhermans: well, you said you read the whole thing...if you read the whole thing then why would you ignore " This page is no longer maintained. It is recommended that you follow the installation instructions in the Rockbox Manual."?
08:06:20khermansscorche, i read that
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08:06:27scorcheand ignored it?
08:06:28khermansscorche, i was pointing out the page for your benefit
08:06:30LloreanSo, you ignored instructions. This is our problem how?
08:06:37khermansscorche, you didnt follow the conversation we had a few days ago
08:07:21*Llorean thinks he is done talking about this.
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08:08:02khermansLlorean, i followed this ->
08:08:20khermansi told you already, that your automated installer is broken
08:08:23Lloreankhermans: Do you see 2.3.2?
08:08:33LloreanDo you see the note at the end of the section?
08:08:35khermansas such, i didnt want to recommend this to a large reader base of noobs
08:08:37LloreanEnd of 2.3.1?
08:08:47khermansi see the next section, yes
08:08:51khermansi saw it then
08:09:00LloreanSo, you prefer to instead force them to download a build of Rockbox that will likely become unavailable, install themes that won't work in a couple weeks, and otherwise screw them over?
08:09:52khermansLlorean, if i had known that was true, i obviousl wouldn't do it to spite a reader base of oucrse
08:10:17khermansLlorean, i also didn't think a little publicity would hurt rockbox
08:10:23LloreanPublicity doesn't hurt Rockbox
08:10:37khermansits a cool project
08:10:50khermansstep back, take a deep breath, and realize that this is not #openbsd
08:11:04khermansanyways, thx for all your help over the last week
08:11:07LloreanLying to potential users about the difficulty of the official installation, not giving them fair warning that they won't receive support, and creating an installation process that depends on a third party continuing to host files and otherwise complicating matters though, is bad.
08:11:22khermansLlorean, i gave them the warning?
08:11:25khermansyou see it
08:11:29LloreanYou did after you were told to, by us.
08:11:29khermansyou might want to hit F5
08:11:40LloreanMy point is that you didn't seem to properly research your article, at all
08:11:44khermansoh wait .. om my fucking god
08:11:52khermanswant to follow irc chan rules
08:12:01khermanslisten, let just drop it
08:12:03khermansits done
08:12:18LloreanIs the article either gone, or accurate now?
08:12:32khermansLlorean, maybe you should read it again
08:12:34khermansand find out
08:12:42khermansyour coments are at the bottom, so that fine
08:13:07khermansi cant believe you blow this way out of proportion
08:13:14LloreanIt still says you use an unofficial build for ease of installation
08:13:36LloreanThere still aren't warnings that it is very out of date, and will likely be incompatible with future themes starting in the next few weeks.
08:13:59LloreanAnd it still doesn't warn that even if you unzip an official build onto the player, you're still using an unsupported bootloader.
08:14:08LloreanSo you HAVE to redo the full installation to get official support one way or another
08:14:09krazykitkhermans, i don't think it's being blown out of proportion at all. you're potentially causing a large amount of grief for users by suggesting your unofficial script.
08:14:26khermansLlorean, i fixed that too
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08:14:40Lloreankhermans: "that" being which of my points?
08:15:01khermanskrazykit, maybe you should scour the web for bad code and hold them all accountable too
08:15:16Lloreankhermans: Are you saying you're not accountable for what you wrote?
08:15:29khermansLlorean, of course anyone is −− what do you mean?
08:15:49LloreanYour response to krazykit.
08:16:10AK-WindowsI have the datasheets for ipod touch...all the arm processor specifics and stuff
08:16:33krazykitAK-Windows, the datasheets for the LCD, the DAC, and the rest, too?
08:16:37scorcheAK-Windows: for arm processors in genreal, or the actual chips used?
08:16:42khermansLlorean, my point is that i am done talking about it too
08:16:47Lloreankhermans: And I still don't see the warnings regarding the fact that your script could break at any time, the build is outdated, and you suggest they ask for help in here without telling them to reinstall the official build first.
08:16:49khermansLlorean, i fixed everything you asked
08:16:53AK-Windowsonly the cpu
08:17:12khermansLlorean, i encourage them to use the official installers in paragraph 2
08:17:22khermans"i highly recommmend"
08:17:26LloreanThat doesn't address the rest of my concerns though
08:17:35khermansLlorean, what else do you want changed?
08:17:35LloreanYou highly recommend non-novice users do it
08:17:42Lloreankhermans: And I still don't see the warnings regarding the fact that your script could break at any time, the build is outdated, and you suggest they ask for help in here without telling them to reinstall the official build first.
08:17:54khermansLlorean, your code could break at any time too, and does
08:18:04LloreanOur build will ALWAYS be available
08:18:06LloreanThat one will not
08:18:18LloreanIt's hosted by a single person, who updates it irregularly when he feels like it.
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08:18:40krazykitkhermans, the difference is, if the official rockbox code "breaks", then they can still get support here. not so with your method
08:18:43LloreanIf his bandwidth runs out, he will take it down. If he gets bored, he will take it down. If we make changes that break the patches he uses beyond his ability to resync, he will take it down
08:19:17khermansLlorean, when will rockbox be at release quality?
08:19:35LloreanWhat does that have to do with anything I've said?
08:19:40LloreanThat build is buggier than the official one.
08:19:58khermansLlorean, just tell me when it will be out of beta
08:20:17khermansLlorean, im going to yank the article a rewrite one when you have finalized an official build
08:20:28LloreanVersion 2.5, the last release, was over 2 years ago
08:20:29khermansone that is not beta
08:20:34Llorean3.0 is not scheduled at this time
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08:22:17khermansLlorean, you dont have a release schedule?
08:22:39scorchekhermans: not at this time
08:22:44LloreanIt's pretty much impossible to do a normal release schedule with firmware.
08:22:56khermansLlorean, give me an idea so i can check back
08:22:59LloreanYou can't schedule research effectively and that's what a lot of this is.
08:23:02khermanstalking about years, months
08:23:20khermansLlorean, many people can schedule research effectively, and do
08:23:24LloreanPeople have to experiment, and you can't tell which test is going to be the one that succeeds. A power management issue could be solved tomorrow, or a year from now.
08:23:37Lloreankhermans: Oh really? Can you predict when AIDs will be cured?
08:23:42LloreanCan you give me a release date on that
08:23:51LloreanSome things just aren't possible to predict. Chance is involved.
08:24:00khermansLlorean, read the black swan
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08:24:39Lloreankhermans: If I recall, that suggests that overall statistical trends work?
08:25:34khermansLlorean, not really
08:25:52khermansthings dont "work"
08:26:09khermansthis is OT though
08:26:16LloreanMy point is simple, though.
08:26:29LloreanCertain things need to be solved before it'll be release quality in many peoples' eyes for iPods.
08:26:33LloreanOne significant one is the power management issue.
08:26:50khermansLlorean, how bad is it?
08:26:53LloreanWhich is hard to predict, since there are few people with the appropriate knowledge
08:27:01LloreanRockbox on iPods gets ~75% of the battery life of the original firmware
08:27:15LloreanRockbox on the iRiver H100 gets ~110%-120% I believe.
08:27:18LloreanOf its original firmware
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08:27:40LloreanOn the older iPods (1st through 3rd generation) we see equal or better battery life, but there's something we're not quite doing right on the PP5020 based iPods
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08:28:09LloreanThat being said, I think there's a growing push for a release, and expect Rockbox might see one within the year, but probably not for the newer among the supported iPods if it does happen at all
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08:28:48khermansLlorean, well i am a developer dude, so i can help if you have any sugestions
08:28:56khermansi have worked for ibm, cisco, emc
08:29:15khermansim a 25/yo dude with some free time and passion
08:29:41khermanssometimes i dumb things down for people, because so many people just dont get it
08:31:05Lloreankhermans: Well, for the later iPods, the *most* likely solution is going to require investigating what the original Apple firmware does when interfacing with various hardware, powering it down, etc, that we don't do. This is probably going to require knowledge of both ARM assembly and anything we've already learned about the hardware, which is mostly what the iPL project has documented here and there
08:31:11conandowhat article are you talking/argueing about?
08:31:12khermansLlorean, do you have any tools like gprof that can pinpoint deficiencies?
08:31:40LloreanIt's not a code efficiency issue, so profiling wouldn't do much good (I assume that's what gprof is, from the name)
08:31:54conandoyes it is ;)
08:31:55LloreanIt's a "we don't necessarily initialize all the hardware exactly right, or turn off everything we can when not in use"
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08:32:28LloreanI do believe some attempt at profiling support was added into Rockbox, but I don't know if it's been maintained.
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08:33:22khermansLlorean, well if you want me to run a debug build of rockbox and report any findings on my 80gb, let me know
08:33:55khermansi am willing to do that and take notes
08:34:07Lloreankhermans: Unfortunately that won't help too much.
08:34:55LloreanWe've got 80gb iPods in the hands of several developers as it is. And unfortunately I'm not too knowledgeable about all the issues concerned, but I think it's most likely to require some investigation of what Apple actually does.
08:35:07LloreanSince we have no hardware documentation.
08:35:19khermansLlorean, i also do reverse engineering :-)
08:35:21LloreanOr someone convincing NVidia to finally start sharing hardware docs.
08:35:30khermansLlorean, are you savvy with IDA Pro?
08:35:44ptw419i love ida pro
08:35:45LloreanI'm familiar with it, and yes, it would be a relevant tool.
08:35:53LloreanSince we're talking ARM architecture CPUs here.
08:36:48LloreanBut I've got to go for a while. Things need getting done.
08:40:16khermansok −− LJ won't let me delete the article because you posted a comment
08:40:41khermansi promise to write a real article when i have found Rockbox is non-beta
08:40:52LloreanWell I think your article could be okay with just one more warning, honestly
08:41:58LloreanJust add in a "While using this build might be a good way to try it out, it's may be gone soon, and will most likely be quite outdated. If you decide you like it and want to try the official version, or if you need to ask for help, reinstall with the official instructions in the manual. Because RBUtil is new, you may wish to try the manual procedure."
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08:42:09LloreanER, "it may be gone soon"
08:42:42LloreanThe thing that worries me the most is that the official build is both outdated, buggy, and has at least even odds of either vanishing or being very incompatible by the end of the month (in my mind)
08:42:50LloreanEr, unofficila
08:42:53LloreanI can't type
08:43:06*Llorean has a hard time walking away
08:43:14JdGordonofficial also :p
08:43:42JdGordonnot to the whole sentance obviously though....
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09:23:14conandoLlorean which article were you discussing with khermans? ;)
09:23:32krazykitconando, you could check the log to find out
09:23:44conandooops, silly me :(
09:24:15conandosorry.. had too much to drink yesterday i guess
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09:36:22eigmadoes anyone know if DMA modules are typically behind caches in TI SoCs (ARM926+C5409)? am I going to have to flush any write buffers before kicking off a DMA transfer, and if so, how do I do that with rockbox?
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09:39:58*amiconn isn't sure he whether understands the question correctly
09:40:02woodensoulHey if anyone is around, I have a couple requests. I'd like some files deleted from the WPS wiki and I've noticed a bug for a week or so that should be easy to fix.
09:40:25eigmaamiconn: how can I clarify?
09:41:00woodensoulWhen viewing track info and scrolling down to path, the inversed section doesn't cover the [Path] designation
09:41:20woodensouland after scrolling up the iversed part doesn't cover what it should
09:41:39peturwoodensoul: put it in the tracker please (if it isn't there already)
09:41:45amiconnDMA engines are usually independent of cpu caches, so that if the cpu has a data cache, you need to flush the cache if the data going to be transferred was changed by the cpu, and the other way round, if data read by dma is going to be processed by the cpu, invalidate the cache after the dma transfer
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09:42:01eigmaokay, that's what I was looking for
09:42:20AK-Windowsat night,my cat becomes a wire chewing monster
09:42:42amiconnThat's common to all cpus with data caches and dma I know of. The other part is what I don't understand, "how do I do that with rockbox"
09:42:55woodensoulpetur: I didn't know if that was necessary because the bug existed before and was quickly fixed.
09:43:22eigmain this case, I'm DMA'ing out of SDRAM; I see SDRAM marked as cached in system-dm320.c, but only the framebuffer appears write-buffered - does this mean I don't need to flush the cache out to SDRAM? (I'm transferring from an area outside of framebuffer)
09:43:22amiconnYou need to hit the hardware, like drivers do in all operating systems...
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09:44:01eigmathere's a chapter in the ARM TRM that deals with cache control, but I'd rather avoid sifting through 50 pages of cryptic coprocessor commands
09:44:49eigmaah, nope
09:44:59eigmaCACHE_ALL implies BUFFERED. darn.
09:45:14eigmaI wonder why the framebuffer isn't read-cached...
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09:46:30amiconnWell, I don't know the details of the TI cpus. Usually write buffering means something different than caching, although it's somewhat related
09:48:26amiconnIf you have some transfer buffer that would require to flush the cache rather often due to dma usage, it might be better to mark that buffer as uncachable (if that's possible)
09:49:05eigmagood point
09:49:27eigmabtw, this is the SDRAM audio buffer that the DSP will be DMA'ing out to the McBSP
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09:50:54Zagorhow is the pp arm7 uncached address set up? that's a rather convenient way to handle it.
09:52:17eigmawhich player has that?
09:52:35Zagorall portalplayers
09:52:51amiconnThat's pretty portalplayer specific afaik
09:53:01woodensouloops I accidentally uploaded my WPS to the wrong wiki page, can anyone here delete it for me?
09:53:05Casainhohello - happy no year to all, good year to RB :-)
09:53:15eigmayeah, system-pp5002.c looks like it's going to PP-specific MMIOs for cache control
09:53:49amiconnYes. Other arm based socs usually use cp15 for cache control
09:53:57eigmaDM320 sure does
09:53:58Casainhoanyone can help me and advice on minimum SRAM a hardware player should have for run RB?
09:54:14amiconnPP has no cp15, but some special logic
09:54:31eigmaif I choose to let the buffer be cached, looks like mmu-arm.c's "clean_dcache_range" is what I'm looking for
09:54:33Casainhoin 2 different situations: player with HDD and player with memory card
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09:56:16LloreanCasainho: There are HD based players running with 2mb.
09:56:28LloreanMB rather
09:56:39LloreanI think a "reasonable" minimum is probably 16 MB though, for HD, and 2 for Flash.
09:56:46eigmawow, we must really be underusing the m:robe's RAM then :S
09:57:03Lloreaneigma: How much does it have?
09:57:07eigma64 MB :D
09:57:14LloreanSame as the iPod 5G 60/80 then
09:57:20LloreanAnd Gigabeat S I hear.
09:57:27eigmaoh, nice
09:57:32Casainhook, and is important SRAM for color display?
09:57:58CasainhoI want to make a not multimedia player, JUST audio player
09:58:21amiconnLlorean: There are even HDD players which run with 256KB (not rockboxable, although there was an attempt)...
09:58:53amiconnCasainho: SRAM != SDRAM
09:59:16eigmamost numbers quoted are SDRAM, right?
09:59:29Bagdersram is usually what we tend to call iram in rockbox
09:59:39Casainhoamiconn: eheh - I mean general RAM, I don't really care/know
09:59:49Lloreanamiconn: True, I was just speaking as to the Rockboxable ones.
10:00:31LloreanHow large is the audio buffer on an Archos when executing from ROM?
10:01:31amiconnLlorean: The attempt didn't fail because of low ram... btw, the device I am talking about was the neuros
10:01:54amiconnRockbox can't be executed from rom anymore, except on Ondio SP and Player :\
10:02:03Bagderthe neo ones have something like 256K
10:02:10Bagderand they run an old version of rockbox
10:02:31LloreanBut those have a hardware MP3 decoder, which helps.
10:02:33amiconnUmm, then I confused neo and neuros
10:02:42BagderLlorean: indeed
10:03:26LloreanAnyway, I think 16MB is a reasonable "minimum", for a software codec target. Less than that and the lossless formats are gonna be spinning like crazy, I think. Same with video.
10:03:39amiconnThe iFP7xx only has 1MB ram
10:04:02BagderLlorean: unless it's flash based, for which I guess 8MB will suffice
10:04:03LloreanSorry "software codec with a disk"
10:04:46Casainhoso, please, for flash players, 8MB?
10:04:51Casainhoand for HHD?
10:05:05Casainhofor lossless formats!! :-)
10:05:19LloreanYou could probably go less than 8MB for Flash, but then you might butt heads with the database and other things
10:05:27amiconnFlash targets only need little ram, unless they should also support stuff which needs to buffer larger amounts of data at once (like viewing images). I'd say 4MB for flash, 32MB for hdd based
10:05:36Llorean4MB for flash sounds good to me too
10:05:44LloreanThe 2MB was before I thought about some of the extra crud I don't use. :)
10:05:49CasainhoWhat do you think about have a company interested on make free/open hardware to run RB? - I remember to read something about that with Neuros....
10:06:17GodEaterexcept Neuros want to use some hardware that's not that open
10:06:25GodEaterwe've argued with them about it before
10:06:33GodEaterwell - Bagder has anyway :)
10:07:21Casainhookok - I will register this 2 diferent values of RAM on TWiki :-)
10:07:50Lloreanamiconn: Don't the iAudios get by quite fine with 16?
10:08:02*Llorean used that as his basis for that value
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10:17:15Casainhoanyone can advice a good and cheap color graphic display?
10:18:36CasainhoI am looking for prices of SRAM...
10:18:41ZagorCasainho: products like that don't tend to live long. so what is cheap now is obsolete tomorrow...
10:20:48Casainhooh, display looks like and hard thing... processor, ram and DACs are ok, but display is expensive and have that problems :-(
10:21:24Casainhofor what shouild I look, SDRAM or DRAM?
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10:31:08CasainhoIs there any ARM MCU that have flash memory internal?
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10:38:08Casainhoa MCU with 512kb of flash could be ok for boot RB from a flash memory card? - thinking in a system without flash memory
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10:38:39eigmaCasainho: in general:; if you're asking whether some Rockbox-supported player has a MCU with internal Flash, I don't know.
10:40:09Casainhobecause there are MCUs with 512kb of flash, would be cheap and simpler not put a flash IC on the hardware, just a connector for a memory card
10:42:52CasainhoSTR731FV2: 256K flash and 16K RAM
10:45:05Casainhowith 256k of flash would be possible to make some loader to run RB from memory card?
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11:20:35BagderCasainho: yes it would
11:21:57Zagor16K ram might be a little tight though
11:22:04CasainhoZagor: told me about 16kb of internal flash and internal ram
11:22:24CasainhoZagor: so 1kb flash and 32kb ram?
11:22:34Casainho32kb flash and 32 kb ram?
11:23:09CasainhoI am doing righ now a building bloc of the player :-)
11:23:29Bagder16K what ram?
11:23:48Bagdercertainly it would use the first instructions to setup the sdram
11:24:14Zagorah, right.
11:24:18Casainhointernal ram of MCU
11:25:00BagderI'd say 4K SRAM would work
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11:25:59CasainhoI would like not use an IC of flash, just a flash memory card - I believe that is possible to boot with internal flash MCU flash and after read the RB code from memory card, right?
11:26:23Bagderyes sure
11:26:30Bagderalthough slightly inconvenient perhaps
11:26:38Bagdersince you can't swap memory cards easily
11:28:38Casainhois important to swap cards? - I am thinking in a MCU with USB...
11:29:15Bagderwell, I've heard about people swapping cards with different contents
11:29:28Bagderif its important or not, I figure is up to each user
11:29:31Casainhomusic files, you mean?
11:30:03Bagderyou sit on the bus with 22 memory cards in your pocket, and then usb isn't a very big help...
11:31:02Casainhowhat do you pretend to say? flash memory is not ok? you prefer HDD memory because of the capacity?
11:31:14BagderI don't pretend at all
11:31:35BagderI'm just noting side-effects of what you asked about
11:32:16Casainhoso, what the alternative of that 22 memory cards?
11:33:09BagderI don't think I follow. I was merely trying to give you a scenario in which multiple cards work better than usb
11:33:47linuxstbCasainho: Not having Rockbox installed on the device itself means every memory card you use has to be updated with the latest Rockbox version whenever you upgrade - not fun...
11:34:11Casainhoah, okok :-) I understand now :-) :-)
11:34:26Casainhothat's something I didn't think about :-)
11:34:31eigmaWOW. "dsp_message.msg = 0xbeef;" and "*&dsp_message.msg = 0xbeef;" do two different things :\
11:34:33linuxstbPlus the settings are stored as a file on disk - so you would get different settings depending on which card you used...
11:36:03Casainhoso the good should be a 4MB IC flash for RB code and a memory card for music?
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11:41:19Bagderprobably, yes
11:42:49CasainhoI understand. However I would like to have a simple schematic, cheap hardware for first version. LCD looks like a big problem :-(
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11:52:38CasainhoI did a schetck of the player, with minimum values:
11:54:40Bagderwhat lcd?
11:54:51Bagderimho, 4MB ram is a bit on the small side if you have a large lcd
11:55:35Bagderpossibly it depends on what the nand flash access is like
11:55:45Bagderie how large audio buffer that is needed
11:55:51CasainhoI about LCD, I don't know yet
11:56:23LloreanCF cards can be a little slow, can't they?
11:56:53Casainhoso, 8 MB of SDRAM?
11:57:45eigma2*pi MB
11:58:40LloreanCasainho: I think it's more "It's too early to tell"
12:00:04CasainhoLlorean: Okok, I will stick with that 4 MB - later we will see
12:02:21Casainhohow do I use an image on TWiki? - I have it on flickr...
12:04:10preglowwhy so little ram? it's not like it's very expensive
12:04:25preglowi'd use at least 16mb
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12:05:12Casainhowell, lets put as a minimum values and lets decided that when doing going to shop :-)
12:05:19petur640K ought to be enough for everybody ;)
12:05:41GodEaterfrom the "words that will haunt you" book
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13:03:47GodEaterhey Nico - how's the GBS work coming along ?
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13:04:10GodEaterhas there been any progress on getting interrupts working ?
13:05:02Nico_Pptw419 has got a ROM dump but I don't know what info he got from it
13:05:40Nico_Paliask said interrupts should be easier to setup with his recent changes, but so far I dont think there has been work towards that
13:06:16GodEaterwell any progress is good :)
13:06:54Nico_Pindeed. and JhMikeS got his S and plans to take a look at it after he completes what he's currently working on
13:07:26*Nico_P goes to have lunch
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13:14:07LearGah, annoying cygwin "bug": try calling lseek without including unistd.h. This will fail, because you're actually calling lseek64...
13:16:23webguest10hi! my wiki-name is 'MustyazaVladislav'.. I've just registred and I can't upload my .wps couse I've no acces to the upload page.. What should I do!?!?
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13:22:18pixelmaheh... impatient people
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13:23:19aliaskI played around with interrupts, and as far as I can see they're not working as they should be.
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13:25:24aliaskThe exception vectors got loaded fine to 0x0, and a bl 0x18 (jump to IRQ vector) gets into the interrupt function, but no bananas on generated IRQ's
13:25:36amiconnLear: Why would that fail, and why do you think i's a bug?
13:25:39aliask(though I haven't had enough time to really double check all my work)
13:25:45amiconnAfaik cygwin uses 64 bit file i/o by default
13:27:28LearIt fails because lseek64 expects a 64-bit offset, not 32 bit. Thus the whence parameter is wrong, and -1 is returned.
13:28:25LearOnly warning I get with -Wall is that lseek is implicitly declared.
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13:30:03amiconnHmm, whence isn't passed if the compiler doesn't know that this lseek needs a 64 bit offset. offset+whence both end up as the (64 bit) offset
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13:30:18amiconnWarnings about implicit declaration are often important
13:30:29amiconnI wouldn't consider this a bug
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13:33:26LearYes, but why would that cause the 64-bit version to be called? I had no idea what the problem was until I read strace output.
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13:34:52amiconnBecause the 64 bit version is default in cygwin, probably there is no 32 bit version
13:35:09amiconnI think what unistd.h does is declare off_t to be a 64 bit int
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13:37:53LearOught to be different versions, as strace output differs. And unistd.h does declare separate lseek and lseek64 functions.
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13:39:04LearThough that was _lseek and _lseek64, when building newlib, it seems... :)
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14:58:34BagderCasainho: I think you're using the word "pretend" a bit funny at times...
14:59:13Casainhowell, I don't have big knowledge in english
14:59:25Bagderno, but look up that particular word
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14:59:41Bagderand you'll see that it makes no sense to say "If they pretend to build a dev board"...
14:59:53BagderI doubt they pretend that
15:00:32Bagderit's just an advice, I understand that we all have different levels of english skills and my own is far from perfect
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15:01:13GodEaterthe reason 50% of the english population wouldn't understand you Bagder, is that you speak it better than they do.
15:01:27GodEaterthe collective IQ of the UK is spiralling downwards rapidly
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15:02:07*Bagder fades away again
15:02:19GodEatera friend of mine in Stockholm has a better vocabulary in English than I do - which I find embarassing.
15:02:35GodEatera couple of times I've been speaking to him and had to ask him what something meant :(
15:02:50CasainhoI would like to know what you think about that online shop?
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15:06:19BigBambiGodEater: Sadly too true
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15:09:55GodEaterI need to get myself over to stockholm again soon. Haven't been for a couple of years now.
15:10:16GodEaterit wins my "favourite european city" award hands down
15:10:31BigBambiI've never been, just to Gothenburg
15:10:59BigBambi(or Göteborg)
15:11:29GodEaterah - yes, the muppet chef accent is stronger there :)
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15:40:13*amiconn now has a nice lcd_grey_phase_blit() for H1x0 as well :)
15:43:09amiconn(and some slight optimisations for the other H1x0 asm lcd routines)
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15:59:25GodEaterI tried to politely inform those archos chaps that posting a "please help us with the archos 605" message in our forums wasn't particularly welcome. (although I was more polite)
15:59:32GodEaterand I just got flamed for it
16:00:08GodEatersomewhat weirdly the guy who flamed me then started ranting about the "PSP Port".
16:00:16GodEaterwhat that has to do with anything is beyond me
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16:04:18markunGodEater: do you have a link?
16:04:32mrkikoA good new year to all the people here!
16:04:49markunmrkiko: you too!
16:04:53GodEaterI'll have to pastebin it markun - it was a PM
16:04:54rvvs89GodEater: It's people like that who influenced me to stop providing support on the ipodlinux forums
16:06:30 Quit fxb (Remote closed the connection)
16:06:39GodEatermarkun: and the link to the forum on their site where I explained why I'd removed his post :
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16:06:52GodEatermy entry is on page 8
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16:26:48CasainhoBagder: what do you think about that compnay possible be interested in make some kind of dev bnoard?
16:27:17*amiconn is undecided whether it's worth adding an asm file for greyscale ipod lcd routines
16:27:37amiconnRight now there is none, unlike for sh1 (archos) and coldfire (h1x0 and m5)
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16:39:48YippMNwhen i want to copy music files and folders over , do i just drop them onto the .rockbox folder, and also videos too?
16:40:13YippMNi don't see anything about this in the manual
16:41:04krazykityou could, but i don't recommend putting them there.
16:41:20krazykitput them anywhere else you like
16:41:38YippMNok where do they go then, or is there a doc that tells what to do with music and video?
16:41:59krazykitthey go anywhere. i like to put music into a directory called "music"
16:42:28YippMNwell if i put a video in say the video folder i see , won't that be the video folder for the sansa os?
16:43:49YippMNi'm looking at the folders on my e260 through a file browser in linux, so i see all the folders that sansa uses , such as Music and Video , and others , and the .rockbox foldeer
16:43:51krazykiti don't think the original firmware will see files it doesn't support, so it doesn't really matter. that being said, the Sansa's stupid OF sets the Hidden attribute on several folders including Music, so you'd have to change rockbox's "display" options to "all", or just use the database
16:44:56GodEateryeah, I think most sansa users create a "My Music" directory, so that the sansa doesn't hide it for them
16:45:32GodEaterbut as krazykit says - you can put the stuff anywhere you like - Rockbox will find it.
16:45:44GodEateralthough we generally say "don't put it in the .rockbox" directory
16:45:58GodEatersince that will just make a mess
16:46:07YippMNi see , so i would have to creat the folder while in rockbox , or can i do it from the file browser on my machine
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16:47:02GodEateryour filebrowser is fine
16:47:04YippMNso your saying that if i just drop the files to the e260 , rockbox will put the files into the database on reboot?
16:47:19GodEaterno - it will put them in the database when you ask it to
16:47:32GodEater(i.e. you choose to "Intialise Database"
16:47:50GodEaterRockbox will then go and search the entire drive for all supported music files
16:47:58GodEaterand record them in its database
16:48:48YippMNahh i see , and what about the folders rockbox has for poto and video and such , i suppose it will put any jpg or mpg file there such as it does with music files when updating the database
16:49:10GodEaterthe database is for audio files only
16:49:23GodEaterany other files will require you to use Rockbox's filebrowser to navigate to them
16:49:54YippMNbut if i drop a video file into it , or a photo how will rockbox find them or work with them ,
16:50:19GodEateras I just said, you find them using Rockbox's file browser
16:51:03YippMNahh ok just want to make sure i'm clear onwhat it does , so far rockbox is pretty darn nice and i accually won solitare after about 4 trys this morning woopieee! :)
16:51:35YippMNtnx for the help
16:54:03YippMNone more thing , about backdrops , would i just drop them in and then find them in rockbox again with the filebroswer or make a folder for them also ?
16:55:01 Join LambdaCalculus37 [0] (n=44a0430f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
16:55:28LambdaCalculus37Hey everyone, Happy New Years!
16:56:08 Join mokkurkalve [0] (
16:56:10GodEateryou're an entire 24 hours behind the rest of the world ? :)
16:56:28*GodEater isn't sure where this timezone could be :)
16:56:49LambdaCalculus37GodEater: No, I'm 24 hours late in showing up because I have a coughing, wheezing PC at home. :(
16:57:15GodEaterbetter than mine - it's in it's grave
16:57:28LambdaCalculus37rasher: Knock knock.
16:58:05LambdaCalculus37I wanted to know if someone can take a look at FS #8366.
16:59:13LambdaCalculus37It was completed over the weekend.
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17:25:59jayhey room
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17:34:39pondlifeSOT: I've just "upgraded" to WinXP/IE7 and now Flyspray is displaying in a messy font. It's not ClearType - that's been thoroughly disabled - but looks like it's badly resized. All other Rockbox sites (and other sites) are ok. Is our Flyspray site expecting a particular font that I may need to install?
17:35:27LambdaCalculus37pondlife: Using WinXP/IE7 at work... try switching to Unicode (UFT-8).
17:35:36krazykitpondlife, obviously the solution is to not use a broken browser ;)
17:35:55pondlifekrazykit: Well, of course - sadly this is a work PC
17:36:13krazykitdon't you people do *work* at work?
17:36:14LambdaCalculus37krazykit: Tell that to the clueless oafs in some IT departments. :)
17:36:19pondlifeLambdaCalculus37: Already on UTF-8.
17:36:30pondlifekrazykit: Much of the time, yes :)
17:36:30LearAnd you can't install something else, like Opera or Firefox?
17:36:44pondlifeI could, but it would be naughty.
17:36:48pondlifeRather not
17:37:15pondlifeThis is a clean install of XP, I suspect a font is missing and substitution is occurring.
17:38:38pondlifeJust wondered if Bagder (or whoever admins Flyspray) could suggest.
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17:41:03*LambdaCalculus37 wishes his IT department would just be smart and deploy Firefox...
17:41:31*petur is admin of his work pc :P
17:41:37scorche|wpondlife: how about not installing firefox and just running it off of a USB drive?
17:42:00*scorche|w is admin of all of the work PCs :P
17:42:05pondlifeI could do that, or just ignore it.
17:42:22pondlifeI'm an admin on this PC, but they don't like other software being brought in
17:42:28conandopondlife: could it be by any chance that a truetype font named "helvetica" is installed on your PC?
17:42:51pondlifeIt is.
17:43:09conandothen your browser is using that for display instead of verdana...
17:43:48conandoon many websites (the same with the rockbox flyspray page) the browser is instructed to use either helvetica, verdana or sans-serif.. in that order
17:44:41conandoand most of the time on windows you don't have a font installed by the name of helvetica so the browser reverts to verdana.. but when it's installed it's used and suddenly many sites look "strange" ;)
17:45:06YippMNmy sansa e260 just locked up and its showing divide by zero at 00020cab on the screen , help :)
17:45:17idnarI happen to vastly prefer the real Helvetica over Verdana, but often you have some other crummy font masquerading as Helvetica
17:45:20krazykitYippMN, hold the power button for 15 or so seconds
17:45:22YippMNcan't shut it off or do anything
17:45:41conandoidnar exactly ;)
17:46:03YippMNkrazykit, ahh ok didn't hold it quite long enough tnx
17:46:36conandoidnar although somehow even the "good" helvetica versions on windows look strange when used in a browser (at least without any form of cleartype that is) ... :/
17:47:34idnarconando: that's probably because of the resolution handling mess on windows
17:50:43conandowho knows.. however it's a little pain in the *ss if you have to use helvetica for other things (work) and many websites look like sh*t because of it... ;)
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17:56:28LambdaCalculus37Looking for Rio Karma information online...
17:57:03LambdaCalculus37Info's kind of thin in places.
17:57:51krazykityou're going to have a major problem on the karma; it isn't formatted fat32 and there's no MSC mode
17:58:30Jetonmarkun: any chance about adding bookmarking (more than one that is) to the text-viewer?
17:58:33LambdaCalculus37krazykit: You owned one?
17:58:34krazykitsince it's portalplayer, we don't have USB for it, another stumbling point
17:58:59LambdaCalculus37krazykit: We didn't have USB for the iPods and H10 when we started, but yes, no MSC will pose a problem.
17:59:02krazykitLambdaCalculus37, i owned 2 and am admin of the only active rio forum left
17:59:21LambdaCalculus37krazykit: Link?
17:59:44LambdaCalculus37I'm going to join up to see if anyone's interested.
18:00:04krazykithardly anyone with a karma anymore is, to be honest
18:00:28krazykitreally, a port is not feasible UNTIL we get working USB for portalplayer.
18:00:56LambdaCalculus37krazykit: I can at least research the hardware and look for datasheets in the meantime.
18:02:17krazykitin order, i'd google for the empeg bbs,, then
18:02:17LambdaCalculus37I have a little bit of hardware info up here:
18:03:15LambdaCalculus37krazykit: Noted.
18:03:21krazykitfirmware upgrades were done with an updater executable: i don't know that any mi4 was ever extracted.
18:03:46LambdaCalculus37I have the firmware updater here, so I'll see if I can study it further.
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18:04:23LambdaCalculus37If it's mi4 based then the next step should be to see if it's encrypted in any.
18:04:27LambdaCalculus37* way
18:05:09krazykitthere was significant work done for USB stuff if that'll help. look up the linux-karma project
18:05:55LambdaCalculus37krazykit: Going there now.
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18:07:22LambdaCalculus37krazykit: You weren't kidding when you said the Karma wasn't FAT32. :)
18:07:34LambdaCalculus37And I thought MTP was bad enough...
18:08:14 Quit petur ("work->home")
18:08:30krazykitit isn't MTP, it's a custom transfer protocol. the drives were formatted in OMFS and even had a custom partition table. there's tricksy stuff going on.
18:09:27pondlifeconando: Removing Helvetica made no difference. It looks like some kind of bad attempt at font resizing.
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18:10:32pondlifeIf copy/paste is to be believed, it's using Times New Roman :/
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18:10:57LambdaCalculus37krazykit: Well, this certainly has enlightened me about the Karma now. Thanks for pointing this out to me.
18:11:02LambdaCalculus37This is going up on the wiki.
18:11:09conandopondlife: uh, that's quite weird
18:11:30pondlifeI'll pop a screen cap up..
18:11:36jayI love ockBox!
18:12:36conandopondlife: in the css it says helvetica, verdana or "sans-serif"... so times new roman should be the absolutely last choice for the browser :S"> shows what I mean
18:13:36pondlifeI think it's using Helvetica (or Verdana if I delete that), but resizing horribly
18:14:25conandoyeah.. hm.. so even if it's using verdana it looks badly resized? strange
18:15:36conandoamazingly looks like a pretty old x11 screenshot... lol.. weird
18:16:12conandowould be interesting to see what it looks like in firefox on the same machine
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18:19:23LambdaCalculus37krazykit: You still haven't got your Karmas, have you?
18:20:06krazykiti've got one with a broken scroll wheel around here somewhere
18:20:45krazykiti think it still works.
18:20:51 Quit PaulJam (".")
18:22:03LambdaCalculus37I'm PROBABLY getting paid for not taking sick days from work at all last year, and with some of that money, I wanted to buy a lot of Karmas off eBay and pass them around to any interested devs.
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18:28:34LambdaCalculus37The Dell DJ will have to wait for a little bit until I can get a new battery for it.
18:29:57LambdaCalculus37Ahh, work time is over. Food time is now!
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19:04:21LambdaCalculus37krazykit: I can't thank you nearly enough for pointing me out to Empeg BBS and Riovolution.
19:04:44LambdaCalculus37But... thanks! :)
19:05:02zeLambdaCalculus37: i hope you make some progress
19:05:36LambdaCalculus37ze: Once I get a Karma, of course... :)
19:05:47LambdaCalculus37I only got the idea when a co-worker showed me his.
19:05:48zei've got one
19:05:53zei've even got a spare mainboard
19:05:54LambdaCalculus37ze: Working?
19:06:12LambdaCalculus37ze: Are you willing to part with it?
19:06:22LambdaCalculus37ze: Had to ask. :)
19:06:23zei'm willing to expiriment though
19:06:31LambdaCalculus37ze: Have you got a scanner?
19:06:37zei can brick up to 1 mainboard :p
19:06:59LambdaCalculus37Well, no bricking yet. :P
19:07:14zeby scanner do you mean a regular image scanner? if so, then yeah only like 2 or 5 of them
19:07:45LambdaCalculus37Can you scan the mainboard and the hardware inside and post them to
19:09:12zehopefully i've still got it aroundand not packed up though
19:09:15zei'll look around
19:09:30LambdaCalculus37ze: Muchos gracais, fellow Rockboxer! :)
19:09:44LambdaCalculus37*gracias :)
19:11:14markunhi LambdaCalculus37! :)
19:11:47LambdaCalculus37Hi markun!
19:12:07LambdaCalculus37Making pilgrim's progress on the Rio Karma front.
19:13:16 Quit Rondom ("Ex-Chat")
19:14:00LambdaCalculus37I've got to remember to send ze a beer for his work on scanning the mainboard. :)
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20:36:47countrymonkeywebCan new builds of rb use mp3 talkclips on swcodec targets?
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20:38:52LambdaCalculus37I thought only the hwcodec targets still used MP3 clips.
20:39:25countrymonkeywebPrimarily. Just wondering if the new builds supported both or just speex.
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20:40:03LycoLocosorry, wrong channel
20:43:13countrymonkeywebI must go.
20:44:13LambdaCalculus37countrymonkeyweb: Bye!
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21:27:12*amiconn fooled himself with rockbox.ipod in the root vs. in /.rockbox
21:30:36JdGordon|wdont you hate that?
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21:34:09JdGordon|wamiconn: did you look at the demo plugin i atteched to the ml? does that make more sense?
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21:34:24amiconn(@ first question)
21:34:34amiconnDidn't check the ml today...
21:36:22*LambdaCalculus37 is searching for more info on PP5003
21:37:01LambdaCalculus37bluebrother: Another PortalPlayer chip... the Rio Karma used it.
21:37:28LambdaCalculus37All I know about it is that unlike its younger brother, the PP5002, this one had an "uncrippled" cache.
21:37:45 Quit linuxstb (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
21:37:58LambdaCalculus37Well, besides that it was dual ARM7 and clocked up to 90 MHz.
21:39:05LambdaCalculus37Pretty powerful SoC for its time.
21:39:18*bluebrother notices the tracker is about to hit the 1000 open tasks limit
21:42:22LambdaCalculus37Who's well versed in the ways of PortalPlayer?
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21:51:03countrymonkeywebWhat is going to happen when it hits that?
21:51:22LambdaCalculus37countrymonkeyweb: The universe will be torn asunder. :)
21:51:38countrymonkeywebNo it will not.
21:52:16countrymonkeywebAnd bluebrother, what is holding up rbutil v1.0.4?
21:52:21Crash91countrymonkeyweb: when what hits what
21:52:39countrymonkeywebwhen the tracker hits the 1000 open tasks limit
21:53:08Crash91countrymonkeyweb: What LambdaCalculus37 said is true
21:54:04countrymonkeywebWhy will the planet be tore apart just because of rockbox and flyspray?
21:54:39countrymonkeywebI have no sense of humor.
21:54:39LambdaCalculus37Time to leave...
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21:55:17countrymonkeywebBluebrother: What is holding up rbutil v1.0.4?
21:55:55scorche|wcountrymonkeyweb: you just asked that..
21:56:22countrymonkeywebMy client shows it didn't get sent.
21:56:46scorche|wyou can always check on the logs on the site
21:57:18countrymonkeywebok. This client is known to be buggy, but I love the interface, so...
21:58:11Lloreancountrymonkeyweb: I *know* I've told you to check the logs first before.
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21:59:19countrymonkeywebIf you did, I don't remember.
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22:03:57JdGordon|whey eigma
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22:06:39countrymonkeywebI am trying to build a chinese voice but I am getting english with a chinese accent. Why?
22:06:54 Quit midgey (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
22:07:28amiconnLooks like chinese-*.lang doesn't have the <voice> strings translated
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22:10:22eigmahey Jd
22:10:44eigmaI'm like 80% to the DSP picking up the audio data from SDRAM
22:11:07eigmait works if I always pick up the same half of the buffer, but I get data corruption if I enable the double-buffering (which is really mandatory)
22:11:21eigmadouble-buffering actually isn't the correct term
22:11:31eigmaping-pong buffering is probably closest
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22:19:34LloreanAlternating buffers?
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22:21:06JdGordon|weigma: cool :)
22:22:24JdGordon|wping-pong buffer? fill half while the other half is being read?
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22:26:21*Buschel needs some help with fs#8379
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22:30:29webguest14hiya =]
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22:32:09eigmaJdGordon: yeah, exactly
22:32:50eigmaJdGordon: there's actually a chain of consumers/producers that always operate on the "opposite" half of the buffer.. McBSP reads out of one half, while DMAC reads from SDRAM into SARAM into the opposite half, while still the codec (CPU) decodes into the first half, but in SDRAM
22:33:37eigmaanyway, data corruption seems to be happening right now, so I'm debugging it
22:34:39saratoga211Buschel: you mean for current measurements?
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22:35:49Buschelsaratoga: yes. I just want to update a test-patch version for some measurements
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22:37:27Buschelsaratoga: just writing the comment for the new patch-version.
22:37:49JdGordon|weigma: sounds like fun :p
22:39:04eigmaright :P
22:39:14Buschelsaratoga: just added the new version where I need some testing help
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22:40:37Buschelsaratoga: can you perform such testing with your unit?
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22:42:52saratoga211Buschel: I can, but I may not have access to the equipment until next week
22:43:16saratoga211otherwise, i can take measurements on my e200
22:43:25bluefox83i am looking to add ogg playback to my coby 512 mb mp3 player, but can't seem to find any information about that particular player on your website, can anyone point me in the right direction for info?
22:43:35Buscheldoes e200 use pp5022/5024?
22:43:40Lloreanbluefox83: There's isn't any
22:43:44BagderBuschel: 5024
22:43:50LloreanBuschel: It's the only 5024 Rockbox target, I believe.
22:44:20bluefox83Llorean, is it going to be added at some point, or should I look elsewhere?
22:44:22Buschela good start to check, if there is _any_ influence then
22:44:41Lloreanbluefox83: Players only get added if people who own them work on them. It's a volunteer project.
22:44:57webguest14pardon, Any info about recovering an erased firmware on Sansa View?
22:45:03bluefox83oh, well i have absolutely no idea how to do that kinda stuff...
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22:45:11BigBambiwebguest14: Rockbox doesn't support the sansa view
22:45:11Bagder... but the chance for anyone to start working on a 512mb device is next to zero
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22:45:19Buschelsaratoga: so, measurements on e200 are possible before next week?
22:45:42Lloreanbluefox83: For all practical purposes, you're better off assuming it won't happen, and trying to find a cheap player that Rockbox does work on then. ;)
22:45:48saratoga211Buschel: depends if anyone is around this weekend to unlock the lab i've been using
22:46:01saratoga211otherwise I will have to wait until next week to get access
22:46:13bluefox83ok, thank you. and good luck to you all. I applaud your efforts!
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22:46:44Buschelsaratoga: ok, just give me note, if you could make the measurements. and thanks a lot in advance :)
22:47:03saratoga211will it be difficult for me to change the patch to work with the sansa?
22:47:35webguest14BigBambi: Yes, but I found a thread in the forums about it recently being hacked
22:47:54Bagder"hacked" ?
22:48:01Bagderwe're working on the view, yes
22:48:04BigBambiwebguest14: That plus any wiki pages is all the info we have
22:48:50Bagderwebguest14: you use recovery mode and manufacture mode, just like on the e200, I would guess
22:49:43Bagderbut I'm pretty sure e200tool won't work on it as-is
22:49:57Buscheli don't think so. main changes for the measuremtns are in pp5020.h (only few), system-pp502x.c (the valid ones are set for pp5022/5024)
22:50:54webguest14thx for info
22:51:02Buschelsaratoga: the usb-stuff should also work for sansa −− all the other changes are ipod specific
22:52:31saratoga211Buschel: so I just change the #if 1 line to #if 0 in your patch and it will disable PPL?
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22:53:35 Quit ompaul (Client Quit)
22:53:43Buschelsaratoga: yes. disable PLL and use 24MHz
22:54:06eigmaJdGordon: looks like it's working..
22:54:18eigmaJdGordon: it seems a little unstable, but that might just be my tools
22:55:29eigmaI think I'll just have to try to play some music and see what happens
22:56:21saratoga211Buschel: I haven't followed the clock scaling stuff for PP
22:56:29saratoga211does the patch already adjust the clock speed as needed?
22:56:48saratoga211basically, I'm asking if you'll be happy with just a #if 0 and a #if 1 measurement, or do you want more?
22:56:55Buschel1a) = 30MHz with PLL -> leave patch as it is
22:57:00JdGordon|weigma: :) this with just sin-wave still?
22:57:30Buschel1b) = 24MHz with PLL -> only uncomment the mentioned line (still within the #if1-section)
22:57:47eigmaJdGordon: not exactly.. it's a variable-frequency square wave - but it's generated in the ARM
22:57:53Buschel1c) = 24MHz without PLL -> change "#if 1" to "#if 0"
22:58:35eigmaJdGordon: do you know how to read files from the harddrive in the bootloader?
22:58:55JdGordon|wshould be able to do it with the usual open/read functions
22:59:07eigmaJdGordon: fopen? or..?
22:59:19JdGordon|wopen(filename, flags);
22:59:44JdGordon|wfd = open("file.ext", O_RDONLY);
22:59:53saratoga211i hate open
23:00:07saratoga211it took me about 2 hours to realize it wasn't the same as fopen the first time i used it
23:00:20JdGordon|whaha that sucks :D
23:01:06eigmawill anything blow up if I try to allocate a "char buffer[4 megabytes]" and read() it all at once?
23:01:12 Quit countrymonkeyweb ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
23:01:45webguest14pardon again, is e200tool for windows still available anywhere ?
23:01:58saratoga211i guess the stack would blow up if you tried it there, but i think it'd work on the heap
23:02:16saratoga211sebguest14: I don't know if it works on Windows correctly
23:02:18eigmaheap? - I mean a static buffer
23:02:50JdGordon|wshould be ok
23:03:02JdGordon|wstatic is on the heap
23:03:23Bagderwebguest14: I took it off since very few people manage to use/run it on windows
23:04:09***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
23:04:12 Nick fxb__ is now known as fxb (
23:04:47 Join uwe__ [0] (
23:08:01oboI don't know if it will be of any use, but for those playing with DM320 devices I've just attached a linux kernel diff to the SansaConnect wiki page that has quite a few DM320 and DM310 drivers
23:08:32soapLlorean, are you a wiki admin as well?
23:08:44soapThere are some attached themes which really should be removed.
23:08:58eigmaobo: link please?
23:09:05scorche|wsoap: only the swedes are
23:09:39Bagdersoap: one of them WPSes?
23:09:53eigmawow, that wiki really screws up Content-types, doesn't it..
23:09:55*JdGordon|w brb
23:09:58 Quit JdGordon|w ("CGI:IRC")
23:10:02Lloreansoap: No, I think only Bagder and Zagor and maybe LinusN can do wiki adminny things
23:10:22soapyes, Bagder. I'll work on making a full list, but it /appears/ many of crzyboyster's themes are violating the licenses of the original artists.
23:10:32Bagderoh, sansa connect uses curl ;-)
23:10:46Lloreancurl gets around
23:10:51 Join JdGordon|w [0] (n=836b0048@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
23:10:51oboit does indeed
23:11:49Bagdersoap: great - me, Zagor and LinusN all have the necessary powers
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23:12:05scorche|was i said... ;)
23:12:34Bagderrepeating is good for learning! ;-)
23:13:19Aloneahow goes it my dears?
23:13:29conandoit gets around.. but unfortunately still not in the movies :)
23:13:31eigmaobo: nice patch, particularly the dm320_sleep stuff
23:14:01Lloreanconando: It's made its way into the commercial videogame industry, I can't imagine movies being far behind if it's not tucked away in some digital video store already.
23:14:05eigmaobo: a lot of it, kkurbjun and I have already ported to rockbox (the SPI and ATA drivers for instance) but I can see a lot of places where it'll come in handy
23:14:07Bagderconando: haha, exactly! ;-)
23:14:29conandoyeah.. i read your blog recently ;)
23:14:38Bagderso I see...
23:15:01conandoLlorean: hehe, you're right
23:16:30 Quit uwe_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:16:51conandobtw.. regarding the picture flow plugin.. is there anything planned how this is going to "evolve"? i mean in regard to next steps.. or things that need getting fixed or implemented before it could actually be used?
23:17:49 Quit Seed (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:17:49 Join MethoS- [0] (
23:17:49oboeigma: glad it will be of some use :)
23:17:49Lloreanconando: Well, a proper bmp resize should be nice. Otherwise you could hypothetically have WPSes that show now AA when Pictureflow does, or vice versa
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23:18:12conandoi guess the main problem is because it's eating up pretty much all the memory and so only works when not playing a song?
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23:18:28Lloreanconando: Then a way needs to exist to integrate it into tagnavi/database, while some people would prefer it stay out of the core. Both of these might be achievable, actually, simultaneously.
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23:19:46conandoLlorean: i understand.. and can see the ups and downs of each... hm personally i'd think it's not supposed to be in the core
23:20:00 Quit MethoS- (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:20:20LloreanYes, but it may not be feasible for it to not be in the core, and still be readily usable. As in, it may complicate things too much keeping it out of the core, for minimal gain.
23:20:50conandofrom a technical point of view.. yes
23:21:18LloreanWell from a non-technical point of view, a user wouldn't be able to tell if it's in the core or not.
23:21:18eigmaobo: a lot of it, kkurbjun and I have already ported to rockbox (the SPI and ATA drivers for instance) but I can see a lot of places where it'll come in handy
23:21:22eigmaoops :)
23:21:44conandois it currently a requirement on all targets that it can only be used when no songs are being played or only on swcodec targets or targets with low memory?
23:22:00 Part rigel
23:22:11Lloreanconando: I don't believe it runs on the non-SWcodec targets. At least, their screens aren't very suitable for album art, at all.
23:22:32conandoLlorean: you're right.. as always ;)
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23:23:29amiconnAfaik pictureflow only runs on colour swcodec targets atm (unlike album art in wps which also works on greyscale swcodec targets)
23:23:31conandooh ok.. i thought there might be higher equipped non-SWcodec targets too.. i'm not yet very savy when it comes to know each supported target.. as i only own two of them
23:23:37hachiI'm getting an error that says "[something] buffer full" when I resume playback, but I just can't get my eyes to read what it's throwing an error on
23:23:44hachianyone know what it would be so I can grep for it?
23:24:01eigmaugh.. open("rover.raw",0) / 'rover.raw' is not an absolute path.... it's in the root :\
23:24:10 Join GodEater [0] (n=godeater@rockbox/staff/GodEater)
23:24:12Lloreanconando: There are a wide range of amounts of RAM, but the way things are currently engineered either Playback gets the whole "buffer" or Plugins do.
23:24:21Lloreanconando: Otherwise Plugins only get a 512kB slice of it.
23:24:27conandoamiconn: i read about the colour requirement...
23:24:28JdGordon|wbah yeah... /
23:24:46Lloreanconando: As it stands, you could probably fit 10-15 album covers in that slice, and just spin the disk like crazy while Pictureflow is being used, I'd imagine.
23:24:59conandoLlorean: oh ok, that explains it all then.. i didn't know about this either-all-or-none policy...
23:25:11eigmaI keep getting stack overflows in the ata functions
23:25:30JdGordon|wdo the reads in mutliple smaller reads?
23:25:40conandoLlorean: i'm mainly using a flash based target so i didn't give the hd-spin much of a thought lately ;) but of course that's right
23:25:41JdGordon|walthough.. that may not be the problem
23:25:45Lloreanconando: Playback will *always* want as much of the buffer as possible. Once it's full, Plugins can't reclaim just part of it, because they don't know which part the playback engine still needs to use, and which part's "at the end" and won't interrupt playing, and such.
23:26:05eigmayeah.. 1 KByte read causes stkov
23:27:20saratoga211amiconn: did you see Buschel's questions about the PLL on the PP?
23:28:48amiconneigma: Then there must be something wrong on your target
23:28:57conandoLlorean: that's true ... but if it would be integrated into the core this would have to be changed somehow as well... at least it had to made configurable.. if picture flow should be used there would have to be reserved some more space for it
23:29:27 Quit webguest14 ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
23:29:41amiconnread() isn't limited in the size it can handle. My ata test plugin reads up to (nearly) full buffer size, i.e. up to ~62MB on ipod video
23:29:47Lloreanconando: Why?
23:29:48conandoLlorean: or perhaps you could even configure how much memory.. and depending on that picture flow could load as many covers as fit into mem
23:30:03eigmaamiconn: yeah, I hacked this thing up pretty good.. cut out various init calls to speed up my development cycle, etc.. I'll have to track down the problem.
23:30:30JdGordon|weigma: yeah, somethis is definatly wrong.. the mr500 has no problems running themes, so unless youve broken something....
23:30:32Lloreanconando: Picture flow could use the whole buffer if playback is stopped, or provide slower performance if music is playing. You can't zoom through the list, because it has to load them as you go but it'd still probably move at a decent speed.
23:30:34conandoLlorean: hm else it could still only be used while no song is playing...
23:31:06conandoLlorean: that was exactly what i meant ;)
23:31:13LloreanThat requires no "configuration" though.
23:31:15LloreanNo options.
23:31:37LloreanIt wouldn't require more reserved space either.
23:31:51eigmafor open to work, I need ata_init, disk_init and disk_mount_all.. anything else?
23:31:54conandoi thought at least an option to let the user decide the tradeof between performance/scroll speed when music is playing
23:32:10saratoga211that'd be hard to write i think
23:32:24saratoga211i don't think we can resize the playback buffer on the fly
23:32:29Lloreanconando: For that to work, it'd need to *always* reserve that memory, which would then mean that they would see bad battery life even if it's been hours since they used pictureflow.
23:32:59JdGordon|wsandsmark: in theory we shuold be able to chop the end off the buffer.. but its not implemented iirc
23:33:13eigmasweet, it's working
23:33:18eigmathe reading, I mean :P
23:33:24JdGordon|wwhat was the problem?
23:33:31eigmawrong order
23:33:41eigmadsp_init was reading but I accidentally had that above ata_init et al.
23:33:41Lloreansaratoga211: If I recall, they were talking about the idea of "buffering" an item of a certain size, that's not a song but rather the space for Pictureflow's buffer, using the buffering APi. So it sorta resizes the buffer, in the same sense that "putting a codec on the buffer" decreases the space available for songs.
23:33:46conandoLlorean: ok got it.. because of the missing possibility to dynamically reserve/reclaim memory...
23:33:57JdGordon|weigma: better than forgetting an init completly :p
23:34:03 Quit miepchen^schlaf (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:34:07saratoga211Llorean: haha so basically use MOB as a malloc buffer?
23:34:22Lloreanconando: Even if you wanted to dynamically reserve/reclaim memory, you'd have to ALWAYS reserve it, or be able to get the full playback system status, and have playback unbuffer audio so that pictureflow could then use it.
23:34:26Lloreansaratoga211: That's kinda what it sounded like, yes.
23:34:33saratoga211neat idea
23:34:38JdGordon|wno no.. you have it all wrong....
23:34:41JdGordon|wnot malloc!!
23:34:59saratoga211was actually going to suggest a while back that if people really wanted JPEG in core, they should find a way to run it out of MOB
23:34:59Bagderwell, it will only be neat if the data can go away when the song is complete
23:35:10saratoga211but I didn't want to lose face
23:35:24Bagdermob kind of implies short-lived data that dies when the song ends
23:35:26GodEatersaratoga211, sort of like loading a picture "codec" ? :)
23:35:39LloreanBagder: But codecs die when "there are no songs in the buffer of this format, and we're playing another format" right?
23:35:44saratoga211hell just make people put the jpeg decoder in their ID3v2 tags
23:35:50LloreanGodEater: Gee, I've never suggested image codecs before. ;)
23:36:03saratoga211problem solved
23:36:10BagderLlorean: hm, right. I'll admit I'm not sure how they behave...
23:36:12conandoLlorean: that was what i so blatantly shorted to "dynamically reserve/reclaim memory" ;) sorry for not being exact
23:36:38Lloreanconando: That's a lot more than that, it introduces new interactions between subsystems that would *drastically* complicate things.
23:37:01saratoga211it seems like having a way to request memory from the playback buffer would be better though
23:37:03GodEateractually just thinking about it makes my head hurt
23:37:03amiconnsaratoga211: Problem with jpeg is that it also needs a buffer to decode into
23:37:15LloreanIt'd probably be best if Plugins could just query "How much data in the plugin buffer is "consumed" or marked as used, how much is the largest contiguous chunk, and can i have that chunk or if it's larger than X, a chunk of X size?"
23:37:27JdGordon|wi doubt picture flow would like having the data moved around... iirc MoB is moved around in the buffer when tracks are added/removed
23:37:34conandoLlorean: i can imagine.. i'm still at the beginning of getting an idea how it all interacts together.. so i hope you can excuse me being such a greenhorn at the moment :)
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23:37:47LloreanJdGordon|w: But it'd have a buffer handle, wouldn't it? Meaning the handle would still be usable after the move?
23:38:21 Quit webguest30 (Client Quit)
23:38:30LloreanSo I bet Pictureflow could be made to work with a buffer handle. Say, ask for 4MB of additional data, or if that much hasn't been consumed by playback yet, then "the largest contiguous chunk you can give me" or something?
23:39:04eigmaHAHAHA it's so broken it's not even funny
23:39:20GodEaterthen why do you laugh ? :)
23:39:42eigmato keep from crying ;)
23:40:37saratoga211looking at the jpeg spec, i think we could limit the decode buffer to just a little larger then the buffer needed for the resized album art pretty easily
23:40:45LloreanBagder: Would there be a lot of hate if someone did come up with a way for plugins to "Buffer" data for their own use?
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23:41:12Bagderif done fine, I can't see why.
23:41:17GodEaterI can't imagine why there would be - since it's a neat way to do it
23:41:18conandothat would be cool i guess.. but if there would be hate.. then better not
23:41:20Bagderbut I have a hard time to see how it can be done nicely
23:41:32linuxstbDoesn't that imply holes will be start appearing in the buffer? IIUC, that's currently avoided.
23:41:42Bagderexactly my thinking
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23:42:31eigmait's working
23:42:35eigmaI am listneing to music on my m:robe
23:42:48GodEateris that time for a "Gentlemen" email then ? :)
23:42:48conandonot to rain on anyones parade but... while this is not implemented nicely (which, don't get me wrong, is something that is _always_ preferable) ..would it at least be possible for picture flow as a plugin to somehow "schedule" a song to be played and then immediately exit?
23:42:50JdGordon|wlike i said before... iirc handles are moved around in the buffer to avoid gaps which may cause problems
23:42:52Bagdercongratulations eigma!
23:42:58JdGordon|wand well done eigma !
23:42:59eigmanot decoding yet
23:43:02Lloreanlinuxstb: Aren't codecs, in a way, a hole though? After rebuffer?
23:43:09eigmajust reading 20 seconds worth of PCM from HDD
23:43:13 Quit InMyMind ()
23:43:18JdGordon|wLlorean: codec is put on before the file
23:43:23Bagderconando: sure that should be possible
23:43:39GodEatereigma, I think that's still worthy of a "Gentlemen" email. In the tradtional format if you please :)
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23:43:43LloreanJdGordon|w: Yeah, but if you have like, 5 Oggs, 1 mp3, and 1 Ogg, doesn't the Ogg codec stick around on buffer until that last one is played?
23:43:47*Llorean thought it did.
23:43:58*JdGordon|w doesnt know
23:43:58eigmaGodEater: can you show me a sample?
23:44:04JdGordon|wlostlogic: Nico_P ?
23:44:29saratoga211regarding holes in the buffer, we could limit plugins to requesting memory from the end of the buffer only, and simply force a rebuffer whenever they do it?
23:44:35LloreanJdGordon|w: Anyway, yeah, the "Plugin BufferData" or whatever would have to be moved to the beginning before rebuffering, I'd imagine, so plugins would have to be happy with moved data.
23:44:37conandoBagder: oh cool.. because as of now picture flow works quite nicely when no song is being played.. but if you select a song simply nothing happens.. and it would be nice to be able to use it at least in it's current state
23:44:38Nico_PJdGordon|w: yes?
23:44:39JdGordon|weigma: ill forward it to you
23:44:39saratoga211i can't imagine plugins are going to do this very often
23:45:01 Quit MethoS- (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
23:45:06GodEatereigma - there's one
23:45:10Lloreansaratoga211: In my opinion, they should be limited to "asking what's 'free or already consumed' then claiming a portion of that" when they boot.
23:45:16 Quit webguest42 (Client Quit)
23:45:19JdGordon|wbah, /me forwarded a bad one :p
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23:45:34JdGordon|wNico_P: Llorean's q above
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23:45:38eigmaI'll write one up right away
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23:45:52saratoga211Llorean: wouldn't that be a problem though, since a plugin could fail if you had a full buffer, but work a few minutes later once the buffer ran down?
23:46:03eigmato rockbox-dev?
23:46:04LloreanNico_P: If you have 5 oggs, two MP3s, and another Ogg on buffer, the Vorbis codec exists on the buffer once, or more than once?
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23:46:34Nico_PLlorean: IIRC it exists more than once but I'm not 100% sure
23:46:41saratoga211i thought we had 1MB of space allocated that holds whatever codec is currently in use?
23:46:53Lloreansaratoga211: Currently jpeg fails and says "You have to stop playback." If they can't get enough, have them prompt the user to perform a manual rebuffer, but only do it if they need more than is available, *and* the user confirms it?
23:47:02 Quit miepchen^schlaf (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:47:49saratoga211Llorean: seems like it'd be better to just have the codec force a rebuffer if needed. in the case of jpeg it'd only ever happen once per boot anyway
23:48:03saratoga211rather then make people rebuffer manually every time they reboot if they want album art
23:48:30GodEatereigma, rockbox users I think
23:49:05conandoyes.. it would be a weird question for a "normal" user i guess ;)
23:50:37 Quit George_G ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)")
23:50:52amiconnImo playback is still the main purpose of rockbox. If a plugin cannot work while music is playing because it'd need more than just the plugin buffer, it should just throw a message and exit, like jpeg currently does
23:51:48Lloreanamiconn: I don't see why it shouldn't be able to claim a part of the plugin buffer, if there's some free.
23:51:57LloreanEr compressed buffer
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23:52:29saratoga211well if we don't want to let plugins work from the playback buffer, we could just limit plugins that need more buffer to flash targets and targets with 64+MB of RAM
23:52:30LloreanAnd/or if you stop playback, launch the plugin, then resume playback, why the plugin shouldn't only be using a finite amount of the compressed buffer rather than "all"
23:52:57eigmasent :)
23:53:06eigmanow I'm off to a well-deserved movie night off
23:53:16JdGordon|wbut but...
23:53:19JdGordon|wyou cant go!
23:53:23JdGordon|wyour not finished!!
23:53:25amiconnUnnecessarily complex. And how would you resume playback from within the plugin?
23:53:44eigmaanother day, another day.
23:53:48eigmacheers everyone
23:53:48kugelIMO the audio buffer is too high for flash targets (at least on my e200)
23:53:50Lloreanamiconn: You can already do that from within Jewels
23:53:51eigmathanks for the help
23:54:13 Quit eigma ()
23:54:19Lloreanamiconn: There's a "Playback" menu that gives you limited controls over volume, skipping, pause/stop/resume.
23:54:24kugelsince flash targets doesn't benefit greatly from MoB, the RAM could be used for plugins like jpeg viewer and pictureflow
23:54:29conandohm i'm with Llorean on this one...
23:54:51saratoga211kugel: yes a smaller audio buffer on the sansa would be nice, since it would probably help with that annoying flash memory access noise bug in sandisk's hardware
23:55:00Lloreankugel: Saying that isn't beneficial. A proper solution would benefit flash targets too anyway, so why not search for one?
23:55:07conandokugel that's where i'm coming from..
23:55:30JdGordon|wsaratoga211: wouldnt it make it worse?
23:55:46conandoi guess he was being sarcastic :)
23:55:47kugelI think MoB is great, but only for hdd-based targets
23:56:04kugelcan't the buffer for flash targets just reduced?
23:56:15BagderI think mob makes sense on all targets
23:56:28Bagderbut for flash targets, plugin buffer sizes etc could be raised
23:56:44conandokugel: i guess saratoga is somehow right.. i didn't think of the flash memory access noise myself
23:56:57kugelBagder: Agreed
23:57:23pixelmanot for all "flash targets" though... have to remember... ;)
23:57:24kugelconando: I don't even know if I ever heard this noise
23:57:32conandoit's quite annoying and especially noticeable if for example the picture flow plugin rebuilds it's AA cache.. :-(
23:58:04conandokugel: really?! uh then consider yourself lucky! ;)
23:58:33saratoga211JdGordon|w: Its barely noticible now, i think if buffering didn't last 3-4 seconds I would never notice it
23:58:38pixelmaI meant "remind" people
23:58:41*JdGordon|w doesnt hear the noise either
23:59:01saratoga211of course you'd still get the same amount of noise, it'd just be a lot harder to hear if it only lasted 1 second

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