| 00:00:49 | jhMikeS | Nico_P: I take it the event log is heavily filtered. |
| 00:01:04 | Nico_P | it only displays playback events |
| 00:01:22 | * | gevaerts looks around for people who know how hardware works to comment on his conclusions |
| 00:01:33 | jhMikeS | why is it jsut pause events? |
| 00:01:49 | | Quit DerPapst (Nick collision from services.) |
| 00:01:52 | | Join DerPapst [0] (n=DerPapst@p5B23C032.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 00:02:04 | | Join CyBergRind|w [0] (n=cbr@212.98.160.130) |
| 00:02:17 | Nico_P | jhMikeS: there are others too (Q_AUDIO_FILL_BUFFER, Q_AUDIO_TRACK_CHANGED) |
| 00:03:25 | linuxstb_ | kugel: No. But if you want to parse a viewport struct, you should adapt the parse_viewport() function in apps/gui/wps_parser.c, rather than use parse_list directly. |
| 00:03:51 | | Quit mirak (Client Quit) |
| 00:04:51 | kugel | linuxstb_: No, I don't want parse a vp struct directly. Thanks |
| 00:04:57 | jhMikeS | yeah but what's with the 4 Q_AUDIO_PAUSEs being sent with no other playback events |
| 00:05:00 | | Join stripwax [0] (n=Miranda@87-194-34-169.bethere.co.uk) |
| 00:05:15 | jhMikeS | I mean like Q_AUDIO_PLAY in between |
| 00:05:28 | GameJerk | there a way to have the music keep playing when i hit the menu button instead of it fading out and pausing? |
| 00:05:47 | XavierGr | gevaerts: these are the results for high or full speed? |
| 00:05:54 | Nico_P | jhMikeS: that's because I was pausing and unpausing. unpause is done by sending Q_AUDIO_PAUSE with false as a vaule |
| 00:06:02 | gevaerts | XavierGr: high speed |
| 00:06:10 | XavierGr | gevaerts: Nice! |
| 00:06:14 | scorche|sh | GameJerk: read the manual please...the last few questions are answerable in there |
| 00:06:33 | XavierGr | Hopefully I will have a c240 the next days so I will be able to help in testing (if it isn't a v2) |
| 00:06:35 | Nico_P | jhMikeS: the logf message is actually different, but there isn't enough space in the logf buffer for the latter part |
| 00:06:36 | | Quit toffe82 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 00:06:51 | gevaerts | XavierGr: I'm not sure if I agree. Having to disable _all_ interrupts is not very nic |
| 00:06:57 | gevaerts | s/nic/nice/ |
| 00:07:20 | XavierGr | well at least you have a slight idea what is to blame for not working properly |
| 00:07:24 | jhMikeS | Nico_P: yeah, was gonna say. now I see. |
| 00:07:55 | gevaerts | Yes, but it seems to rule out any kind of creative use of usb (audio,...) |
| 00:08:18 | | Quit bertrik ("bye") |
| 00:08:23 | XavierGr | gevaerts: ah yes, indeed, forgot that part |
| 00:08:45 | gevaerts | Unless some hardware-wizard can think of a solution |
| 00:09:17 | Nico_P | jhMikeS: I can't try your patch right now but I will ASAP |
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| 00:13:52 | | Quit petur ("*plop*") |
| 00:14:34 | amiconn | gevaerts: How about just disabling interrupts during the actual block transfer? |
| 00:15:15 | * | amiconn still doubts that this is the root of the problem though |
| 00:15:30 | amiconn | It might still be an effect of something we're doing wrong |
| 00:15:38 | GameJerk | scorche: i found the fade out on pause/stop option but i can't find anything referring to being able to have the music continue playing when i hit the menu button |
| 00:15:48 | gevaerts | That could work. The problem is that in theory a transfer can take a long time (seconds...) if the bus is very busy |
| 00:17:05 | amiconn | Hmm, isn't a block always transferred in one piece? |
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| 00:17:45 | | Quit davina ("GNU/Linux the free alternative to Windows") |
| 00:17:58 | markun | I want to simplify the #ifdefs in firmware/SOURCES a bit. Do you think it's better to have a NO_ATA or a HAVE_ATA define? |
| 00:18:14 | markun | (or maybe something else) |
| 00:18:26 | | Quit cbr|w (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 00:18:39 | gevaerts | No (unless you use 512 byte blocks). And even if it was, we have no control over when it is actually sent. We just tell the controller that this block is ready in case the host asks for it |
| 00:19:00 | amiconn | Aren't the block on the bus always 512 byte (or less)? |
| 00:19:22 | gevaerts | On the bus the packets are 512 bytes (for high speed) |
| 00:20:18 | amiconn | Ah, yes, packets I mean |
| 00:21:06 | gevaerts | but this controller is pretty high level, so the software can't directly touch packets |
| 00:22:22 | amiconn | I sincerely doubt the apple OF (or any other PP OF) disables all interrupts permanently during usb connection |
| 00:22:49 | | Quit roolku (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 00:23:24 | | Quit dantje_ ("Ex-Chat") |
| 00:24:25 | gevaerts | Actually, I think (but have not verified) that in our current situation you can basically do anything as long as you only touch IRAM and leave the external RAM to the USB controller. |
| 00:24:30 | amiconn | Interrupts or not, the CPU core(s) is/are running in parallel to the usb controller. And when they're running, they're reading code andreading and writing data |
| 00:26:21 | amiconn | But maybe a cache line miss (and hence fetch) is what disturbs the controller, so it's not the fact that interrupts are running, but rather the fact that interrupts routines are more likely to cause cache misses? (speculating...) |
| 00:26:55 | gevaerts | possibly. |
| 00:27:33 | amiconn | jhMikeS: I vaguely remember having seen something about priorities, so maybe there are configuration bits to configure cpu vs. usb controller (vs. dma engine??) priority for ram accesses? |
| 00:28:48 | | Join countrymonkey [0] (n=4b05639a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-490a4d9c82523ca2) |
| 00:30:06 | countrymonkey | I guess patches 8722, 8737, and 8761 are ready for commit? |
| 00:30:29 | | Quit gregzx ("ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox 2.0.0.12/2008020121]") |
| 00:32:41 | | Join roolku [0] (n=roolku@77-99-112-231.cable.ubr16.edin.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 00:32:41 | | Quit toffe82 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 00:32:55 | * | bluebrother wonders what "changes were made" this bookshare guy is talking about |
| 00:33:23 | countrymonkey | what task? I'm bookshare |
| 00:33:29 | | Join toffe82__ [0] (n=chatzill@h-74-0-180-178.snvacaid.covad.net) |
| 00:33:49 | roolku | bluebrother: I aggree that the play button should resume, but never got around changing it |
| 00:33:59 | | Quit toffe82__ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 00:34:51 | bluebrother | roolku: using this display button for switching to the file browser from wps is also confusing −− all my other targets use select instead. |
| 00:35:13 | bluebrother | I might give it a try once I find the time. No big deal ... |
| 00:35:31 | | Join corevette [0] (n=corevett@adsl-75-35-113-7.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) |
| 00:36:06 | countrymonkey | If you mean task 8722 than the changes are 2 deprecated strings |
| 00:36:15 | roolku | bluebrother: as for lineout - it is not wired to the dock connector in the player |
| 00:36:56 | | Quit robin0800 (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Po-ta-to, boil em, mash em, stick em in a stew.") |
| 00:37:03 | roolku | bluebrother: I thought about a hardware mod, but I am not really using the player... |
| 00:37:29 | | Join cool_walking_ [0] (n=notroot@203-59-129-195.perm.iinet.net.au) |
| 00:38:03 | bluebrother | strange. Don't they have enough pins on that connector? Oh well. |
| 00:38:19 | | Join toffe82__ [0] (n=chatzill@h-74-0-180-178.snvacaid.covad.net) |
| 00:38:27 | | Nick toffe82__ is now known as toffe82 (n=chatzill@h-74-0-180-178.snvacaid.covad.net) |
| 00:38:43 | bluebrother | countrymonkey: yep, I was referring to FS #8722. This guy could really be a bit more descriptive IMO. |
| 00:39:31 | | Quit Mouser_X () |
| 00:40:23 | | Quit ol_schoola () |
| 00:40:24 | countrymonkey | I'm bookshare. I'm sorry. I said made today because there was a date stamp on the comment and the strings were depricated that day. |
| 00:41:48 | roolku | bluebrother: I think they couldn't spare the space for the required capacitors on the circuit board - there are plenty of spare pins |
| 00:42:01 | * | bluebrother would really appreciate if people won't use different nicks in all places |
| 00:42:15 | | Join miepchen^schlaf_ [0] (n=miepchen@p54BF564A.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 00:42:28 | * | linuxstb_ apologises... |
| 00:42:38 | countrymonkey | What's wrong with that? |
| 00:43:28 | * | linuxstb_ retracts that apology (he thinks...) |
| 00:43:58 | * | gevaerts can't remember what nick he uses on the tracker |
| 00:44:22 | linuxstb_ | Bagder: Missing arm compiler on femlab.bme.duke.edu ... |
| 00:44:29 | countrymonkey | You use fg |
| 00:44:35 | Nico_P | linuxstb_: you managed to fix the printf warnings in checkwps? congratulations! |
| 00:44:45 | Nico_P | how did you do it? |
| 00:44:47 | gevaerts | So I have two nicks and one wikiname |
| 00:46:17 | linuxstb_ | Nico_P: I forget now - there were so many warnings to fix (fixing one introduced another...) |
| 00:46:26 | bluebrother | well, in your case it's kinda obvious. But non-obvious cases can be quite confusing (and therefore annoying) |
| 00:47:09 | | Join nas [0] (n=nas@bas5-hamilton14-1279280006.dsl.bell.ca) |
| 00:47:29 | | Quit matsl (Remote closed the connection) |
| 00:47:47 | countrymonkey | So it can be committed? |
| 00:47:57 | countrymonkey | I mean, so they can be committed? |
| 00:49:36 | | Join emeraldd [0] (n=jules@adsl-68-90-129-224.dsl.lgvwtx.swbell.net) |
| 00:49:37 | | Quit toffe82 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 00:50:11 | | Join toffe82__ [0] (n=chatzill@h-74-0-180-178.snvacaid.covad.net) |
| 00:50:19 | | Nick toffe82__ is now known as toffe82 (n=chatzill@h-74-0-180-178.snvacaid.covad.net) |
| 00:50:47 | * | linuxstb_ guesses the broken build server belongs to saratoga |
| 00:50:47 | jhMikeS | amiconn: I just randomly named a register CACHE_PRIORITY with no real idea what it is. |
| 00:51:17 | gevaerts | Nice random name :) |
| 00:52:36 | * | bluebrother is annoyed by rbutil creating files on $HOME without asking |
| 00:52:36 | | Quit toffe82 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 00:53:16 | linuxstb_ | bluebrother: Didn't you write rbutil? |
| 00:53:55 | bluebrother | not that part of it. |
| 00:53:59 | | Join toffe82__ [0] (n=chatzill@h-74-0-180-178.snvacaid.covad.net) |
| 00:54:03 | | Join barrywardell [0] (n=barrywar@rockbox/developer/barrywardell) |
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| 00:55:00 | | Join jhulst [0] (n=jhulst@unaffiliated/jhulst) |
| 00:55:03 | bluebrother | and there's a bug in bootloader installed detection. |
| 00:55:55 | linuxstb_ | What files get created in $HOME? |
| 00:56:38 | | Quit stripwax (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 00:57:35 | | Quit miepchen^schlaf (Connection timed out) |
| 00:57:40 | bluebrother | it created a folder "Olympus mrobe100 Original Firmware Backup" and puts the mi4 file into it |
| 00:58:08 | gevaerts | So wa |
| 00:58:16 | * | gevaerts blames his keyboard |
| 00:58:18 | bluebrother | it should at least ask me about it (or tell me that it has done this) |
| 00:58:28 | gevaerts | So what if you have two mrobe100s ? |
| 00:58:42 | bluebrother | it will overwrite the first backup |
| 00:58:45 | linuxstb_ | Shouldn't it just rename to OF.mi4 on the device? |
| 00:59:19 | bluebrother | yes. But after some discussion Domonoky added this "host backup". |
| 00:59:47 | linuxstb_ | What does the bootloader install actually do? |
| 00:59:48 | bluebrother | I disliked that idea from the beginning and now I got hit by it. |
| 01:00 |
| 01:00:08 | linuxstb_ | (on the mrobe100)? |
| 01:00:19 | bluebrother | move PP5020.mi4 to OF.mi4, download PP5020.mi4 and put it in place (all in the System folder on the player) |
| 01:00:29 | jhMikeS | btw, any yielding takes control of the interrupt level since there really no safe way to mask and restore them anyway when giving control to other code |
| 01:00:54 | bluebrother | I was skimming the bootloader installation code and wondering if there could be some stuff consolidated |
| 01:01:23 | * | Nico_P has been reading about LLVM and it looks really promising |
| 01:01:28 | | Quit OlivierBorowski_ (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) |
| 01:01:29 | | Quit csc` ("Powering Off") |
| 01:01:43 | bluebrother | originally I was searching why rbutil told me the bootloader is already installed (though it wasn't) |
| 01:02:07 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 01:02:16 | bluebrother | that code is also not too robust. Another item on my todo list ... |
| 01:02:33 | * | bluebrother starts to feel like a grumpy old man |
| 01:04:26 | preglow | anyone tried that mikmod codec? |
| 01:04:37 | | Quit GameJerk (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 01:05:25 | linuxstb_ | amiconn: Regarding the (real) red on iriver - it's because I removed adc.h from lcd.h.... I can fix if you want. |
| 01:05:38 | preglow | ah, it's a plugin |
| 01:05:40 | kugel | linuxstb_: parse_list again. If I have 12|13|, and I only need the last one, what should I do? NULL,&b didn't work |
| 01:05:47 | amiconn | linuxstb: Please do. |
| 01:05:51 | linuxstb_ | s/lcd.h/lcd-remote.h/ |
| 01:06:09 | | Quit DerPapst (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 01:06:15 | linuxstb_ | kugel: You have to use all the parameters - why have them there otherwise? |
| 01:06:17 | amiconn | Although, the remote type detection doesn't belong where it currently is (lcd driver) |
| 01:07:09 | | Quit emeraldd ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12") |
| 01:07:15 | kugel | because I need for one part the complete list, and for another part only the last part |
| 01:07:18 | Nico_P | jhMikeS: I just tried your OS stacks screen patch and I don't see any weird value |
| 01:07:39 | barrywardell | amiconn: did you see my question earlier about the H10 lcd driver? |
| 01:07:50 | * | amiconn scrolls back |
| 01:08:23 | * | countrymonkey needs to eat dinner |
| 01:08:55 | bluebrother | someone with an account at sandisks forums around? |
| 01:08:56 | | Quit countrymonkey ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") |
| 01:09:09 | Llorean | bluebrother: Aye. |
| 01:09:28 | bluebrother | Llorean: you're aware of this thread? http://forums.sandisk.com/sansa/board/message?board.id=e200&thread.id=9721&view=by_date_ascending&page=1 |
| 01:10:01 | bluebrother | the admins telling that all support questions should go to rockbox.org is a bit ... well, annoying, as the thread is about an unofficial installer |
| 01:10:10 | Llorean | Quite. I've emailed the moderator who started it and asked him to either remove the suggestion that people ask us for help, or change the installer mentioned to be the official one. |
| 01:10:29 | barrywardell | amiconn: basically, setting clcd_clock_src to PLL breaks OF loading in the H10 bootloader and I was wondering if you thought it was okay to define it out for the bootloader? and if it should also be done for smal H10? |
| 01:11:14 | bluebrother | Llorean: nice. I'm sometimes wondering why we are writing an official installer if people frequently come up with unofficial and broken ones. |
| 01:11:22 | amiconn | You could define it out. Doing so means that the LCD runs a lot slower especially at high cpu clock though |
| 01:11:54 | barrywardell | but only in the bootloader which probably doesn't matter too much? |
| 01:11:59 | Llorean | bluebrother: Well, that installer might predate a working RBUtil on Sansa. |
| 01:12:12 | | Join kushal_12_27_200 [0] (n=kushal@12.169.180.134) |
| 01:12:46 | amiconn | Setting bits 30 and 31 to 1 means the LCD controller is clocked from the PLL, i.e. it runs at 80 MHz when the cpu is boosted. With both bits set to 0 it runs from the base clock (24MHz) |
| 01:13:08 | amiconn | I really wonder why that setting breaks the OF. |
| 01:13:26 | amiconn | Hmm, wait |
| 01:13:35 | barrywardell | amiconn: it's necessary for the (big) H10 bootloader. without it, the OF doesn't start up properly |
| 01:14:19 | | Part toffe82 |
| 01:14:51 | amiconn | barrywardell: I think I know why that happens. It's probably unnecessary to comment out for small H10 |
| 01:14:53 | | Quit miepchen^schlaf_ () |
| 01:15:00 | amiconn | Remember the speed setting registers? |
| 01:15:02 | bluebrother | hmm, good point. |
| 01:15:40 | * | linuxstb_ wonders if the build system has died, or just resting... |
| 01:15:51 | amiconn | We still didn't do a complete series of measurements in order to use the fast fifo-ed transfer on big H10 |
| 01:15:56 | barrywardell | amiconn: ah, yes. |
| 01:15:58 | amiconn | On small H10, it just works |
| 01:16:11 | amiconn | So I guess the OF will also work |
| 01:16:19 | barrywardell | big H10 ended up too fast for the controller IIRC |
| 01:16:32 | amiconn | Yes, but the speed can be programmed |
| 01:16:50 | | Quit roolku ("sleep") |
| 01:16:51 | | Join saratoga [0] (n=9803c6dd@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-896db001d45bff9d) |
| 01:17:00 | amiconn | ...which the big H10 iriver loader doesn't do, but the small H10 iriver loader does |
| 01:17:03 | | Quit saratoga (Client Quit) |
| 01:17:08 | linuxstb_ | saratoga: Hi... bah... |
| 01:17:09 | | Join saratoga [0] (n=9803c6dd@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-a935d84cfa79f3ed) |
| 01:17:31 | * | amiconn should really do a series of experiments with that |
| 01:17:36 | linuxstb_ | saratoga: Is femlab.bme.duke.edu your build server? |
| 01:17:46 | | Join saratoga222 [0] (n=9803c6dd@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-3e6c9d2cd9bc3819) |
| 01:17:47 | amiconn | Would be nice to compare results with a big H10 then... |
| 01:17:55 | | Quit saratoga222 (Client Quit) |
| 01:17:56 | | Join saratoga22222 [0] (n=9803c6dd@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-fcb04ce55e09ba11) |
| 01:18:02 | | Quit bluebrother ("sleep") |
| 01:18:25 | amiconn | barrywardell: I'd say disable it for big H10 bootloader for now, putting a big comment that lcd controller speed settings need work... |
| 01:18:35 | barrywardell | I did a seried of experiments with my (big) H10 previously. there's a link somewhere in the IRC logs |
| 01:18:41 | | Part feindbild ("http://www.last.fm/user/_poison/") |
| 01:18:43 | | Join miepchen^schlaf [0] (n=miepchen@p54BF564A.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 01:18:44 | barrywardell | amiconn: OK, will do |
| 01:18:50 | amiconn | Is that link target still available |
| 01:18:52 | amiconn | ? |
| 01:19:02 | * | amiconn needs to find that link as well |
| 01:19:19 | barrywardell | I think it was pastebin, available indefinitely but can't remember exactly |
| 01:19:26 | linuxstb_ | saratoga22222: Is femlab.bme.duke.edu your build server? |
| 01:19:32 | * | amiconn fetches the latest bunch of logs now that listlogs.pl is back |
| 01:21:28 | * | amiconn usually sets pastebin contents to limited lifetime |
| 01:21:35 | amiconn | If I don't forget it, that is |
| 01:21:44 | * | gevaerts is going to sleep |
| 01:22:09 | | Quit saratoga ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)") |
| 01:22:10 | * | linuxstb_ is still trying to see if his commits were green... |
| 01:22:53 | | Quit gevaerts ("ZZzz..") |
| 01:23:16 | | Quit Nico_P (Remote closed the connection) |
| 01:26:01 | | Nick fxb is now known as fxb__ (n=felixbru@h1252615.stratoserver.net) |
| 01:26:03 | saratoga22222 | linuxstb_: yes and i've just corrected that |
| 01:27:08 | linuxstb_ | saratoga22222: Thanks. |
| 01:28:53 | barrywardell | amiconn: found my original records |
| 01:29:22 | barrywardell | amiconn: http://pastebin.ca/958928 |
| 01:29:23 | amiconn | I've found the correct log. 2007-10-12 |
| 01:29:49 | | Join OlivierBorowski_ [0] (n=OlivierB@ANancy-157-1-103-231.w86-218.abo.wanadoo.fr) |
| 01:32:33 | linuxstb_ | saratoga22222: I've just made another commit if you want to wait to see if your server's OK now. |
| 01:33:13 | | Quit amiconn (Nick collision from services.) |
| 01:33:19 | | Join amiconn [50] (n=jens@rockbox/developer/amiconn) |
| 01:35:15 | * | amiconn wants the buildmaster script to become a bit more intelligent :\ |
| 01:35:26 | saratoga22222 | linuxstb: is there someway I can tell besides watching top? |
| 01:35:50 | saratoga22222 | linuxstb_: you too |
| 01:35:54 | | Quit techhelper1 () |
| 01:37:26 | linuxstb_ | saratoga22222: Just check the build table in a few minutes. But I guess if arm-elf-gcc is running, it's OK. |
| 01:38:02 | | Join Matt65 [0] (n=189e0b72@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-6885fe001c334c2f) |
| 01:39:37 | saratoga22222 | is there someway on the table to see what machine built what? |
| 01:40:06 | Matt65 | I just tried installing rockbox, following the instructions word for word on a Sansa e260. NOT v2. After it reset it brought up the sandisk loading screen, and froze there |
| 01:40:06 | amiconn | Hover over the table cell... |
| 01:40:14 | saratoga22222 | oh never mind |
| 01:41:46 | saratoga22222 | I don't understand this |
| 01:41:47 | saratoga22222 | 73 Warning: couldn't get zip from rbclient@femlab.bme.duke.edu/build-ipodcolor |
| 01:41:47 | saratoga22222 | 73 Copied rbclient@femlab.bme.duke.edu:build-ipodcolor/rockbox.zip in 3 seconds, 725193 bytes/second |
| 01:41:54 | saratoga22222 | did it get the zip or not? |
| 01:42:14 | linuxstb_ | saratoga22222: Check the build logs for any of the red builds - arm-elf-gcc isn't in yout path |
| 01:43:53 | Matt65 | can anyone point me in the right direction atleast? |
| 01:44:32 | linuxstb_ | Matt65: Which instructions did you follow? manual or automatic install? |
| 01:44:33 | saratoga22222 | rbclient@biosgroup-desktop:~$ arm-elf-gcc |
| 01:44:33 | saratoga22222 | arm-elf-gcc: no input files |
| 01:44:35 | saratoga22222 | rbclient@biosgroup-desktop:~$ arm-elf-gcc |
| 01:44:35 | saratoga22222 | arm-elf-gcc: no input files |
| 01:45:15 | linuxstb_ | saratoga22222: Are you ssh'ing to the machine to login as rbclient? |
| 01:45:22 | saratoga22222 | linuxstb_: yes |
| 01:46:14 | linuxstb_ | Is the path set in acbuild.pl ? |
| 01:46:37 | saratoga22222 | linuxstb: I set it in .profile |
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| 01:48:57 | saratoga22222 | ah acbuild.pl redefines the path |
| 01:50:26 | linuxstb_ | It doesn't redefine it, but it can add extra directories to the path |
| 01:50:36 | saratoga22222 | hmm that shouldn't matter |
| 01:51:29 | saratoga22222 | can i invoke that script on my own to see whats happening? |
| 01:51:38 | linuxstb_ | I would guess that the build script is invoking a non-interactive shell, hence .profile isn't read - just .bashrc |
| 01:52:37 | linuxstb_ | That script takes a lot of complex parameters - it's not straightforward to run outside the build system |
| 01:53:03 | linuxstb_ | If I was you, I would simply fix the path in acbuild.pl - that's what that line is for. |
| 01:53:16 | saratoga22222 | i don't understand what it should be |
| 01:53:23 | saratoga22222 | the default seems to point to the binary |
| 01:53:27 | saratoga22222 | but shouldn't it be the path? |
| 01:53:48 | linuxstb_ | What does the PATH line contain in your copy of acbuild.pl? |
| 01:54:17 | linuxstb_ | Mine is $ENV{'PATH'}.=":/usr/local/sh-1/bin:/usr/local/coldfire/bin:/usr/local/arm-elf/bin"; |
| 01:54:47 | saratoga22222 | my acbuild.pl appears to have vanished somehow |
| 01:57:34 | saratoga22222 | made a new one |
| 01:57:43 | saratoga22222 | so i have to wait for a commit to see if its working? |
| 01:58:45 | linuxstb_ | I wonder if something/someone deleted that file because of the errors... The latest build was clean. |
| 01:59:42 | linuxstb_ | But yes, you need to wait for a commit to see if it's working. You could just commit a trivial change somewhere though... |
| 02:00 |
| 02:00:03 | * | linuxstb_ has run out of commits |
| 02:01:18 | saratoga22222 | i'll do that |
| 02:02:33 | linuxstb_ | Matt65: That's obviously unexpected behaviour... What install instructions did you follow? (manual or automatic)? |
| 02:04:09 | | Quit Matt65 ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") |
| 02:08:19 | saratoga22222 | hmm my machine didn't build anything |
| 02:08:50 | | Quit kushal_12_27_200 ("This computer has gone to sleep") |
| 02:09:33 | linuxstb_ | Yes, the latest set of builds happened when your acbuild.pl was missing. |
| 02:10:01 | * | linuxstb_ needs to sleep, goodnight. |
| 02:14:18 | techhelper1 | |
| 02:14:28 | Beta2K | Not allowed |
| 02:14:33 | Beta2K | Developers can't sleep |
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| 02:41:14 | HP_Administrator | hey |
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| 02:58:01 | * | kugel has a custom list version with %V-like syntax ready |
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| 03:41:19 | kugel | JdGordon: ping |
| 03:43:28 | kugel | JdGordon: What happened to your idea of "viewportifying" quickscreen? Was a bit quite after your (horrible :) ) commit some weeks ago. Even though, quickscreen with viewports would be nice (escpecially since I want to make the quickscreen consistent with the (custom) list, see FS #8799) |
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| 04:45:19 | digger | hey can someone help me |
| 04:45:29 | digger | can someone help me |
| 04:46:26 | scorche | not if you dont ask a question... |
| 04:46:34 | digger | i have a ipod nano 2cd gen |
| 04:46:40 | digger | and i cant seem to get it to work |
| 04:46:56 | scorche | did you look at the front page? |
| 04:47:00 | digger | no |
| 04:47:17 | scorche | you didnt even look at www.rockbox.org? |
| 04:47:36 | digger | yea at the builds but nano 2cd gen isnt on there |
| 04:47:46 | scorche | look at www.rockbox.org ... |
| 04:48:23 | digger | so it dont work with 2cd gen nanos |
| 04:48:33 | scorche | right |
| 04:48:44 | digger | is there any other things like rockbox that do |
| 04:48:48 | scorche | no |
| 04:48:53 | digger | that bullshit |
| 04:48:55 | digger | thanks |
| 04:48:58 | scorche | ... |
| 04:49:04 | digger | umm are they wokring on 2cd gen nanos? |
| 04:49:28 | scorche | no "they" arent...it doesnt quite work like that |
| 04:49:45 | digger | well thanks for the help ill try and trade with my sister she has a first gen |
| 04:49:56 | scorche | people with the device and the ability come forward and do the port |
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| 05:33:17 | herbi | hi guys |
| 05:33:27 | herbi | is there a bpm counter plugin for rockbox? |
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| 06:10:42 | Insectoid | iPOD video 5g, empty configuration file with voice. Whenever I attempt adding a directory to playlist (context menu, add...) the player locks up and when I check it in windows, the .playlist_control file is empty. |
| 06:11:21 | Insectoid | The drive continues to hum, but no sound of reading, just the high-pitched drive powered sound |
| 06:12:45 | Insectoid | So far I've run chkdsk /R on the device, and also jkdefrag... I didn't expect anything but I figured it wouldn't hurt. |
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| 09:23:24 | disorganizer | morning |
| 09:26:09 | petur | moin |
| 09:26:23 | markun | good morning |
| 09:27:28 | * | petur is still a bit pissed for riding at work without music - r16830 crashed on WPS loading. Current svn seems to have fixed it... |
| 09:27:47 | LinusN | rockbox sucks! |
| 09:28:11 | markun | LinusN: it sure does! |
| 09:28:16 | petur | I didn't even manage to make it sound like a bag of shit |
| 09:28:39 | markun | LinusN: are you going to skip the meizu fun? |
| 09:28:58 | LinusN | i'm seriously considering buying one |
| 09:29:11 | LinusN | if i only could buy me some time as well :-) |
| 09:29:59 | * | petur would love to have a peek at the iriver E100 if he had any time :/ |
| 09:30:13 | markun | according to kgb2008 there are 2 versions of the M6SL with different LCD modules: http://www.meizume.com/rockbox/5567-rockbox-project-m6-21.html#post58962 |
| 09:30:45 | markun | I couldn't find the datasheet for the S6D0154 yet |
| 09:31:44 | markun | the strange thing is that it seems to be for a 320x240 panel, while the S6D0129/139 is for a 240x320 panel |
| 09:34:01 | LinusN | is that philips? |
| 09:34:26 | | Quit Buschel () |
| 09:37:19 | markun | the lcd driver is samsung |
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| 09:47:37 | markun | LinusN: at least I could find the LCD init for that chip in the firmware: http://130.89.160.166/rockbox/s6d0154.txt |
| 09:48:49 | LinusN | i just requested a datasheet from samsung |
| 09:48:51 | markun | the other 3 are here: http://www.meizume.com/rockbox/5567-rockbox-project-m6-13.html#post57835 |
| 09:49:31 | markun | I have the one of the S6D0129 |
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| 10:00 |
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| 10:10:39 | markun | LinusN: does the LCD init sequence for the M6TP look familiar? http://www.meizume.com/rockbox/5567-rockbox-project-m6-13.html#post57835 |
| 10:12:56 | LinusN | not really |
| 10:16:08 | | Join pondlife [50] (n=Steve@rockbox/developer/pondlife) |
| 10:25:35 | amiconn | markun: Why is that strange? Using an lcd controller + panel "rotated" seems to be a common thing looking at our targets... |
| 10:25:58 | markun | amiconn: but using 2 different orientations in the same firmware.. |
| 10:26:20 | LinusN | gevaerts: there? |
| 10:26:24 | amiconn | The ipod color also has 2 very different lcd controllers |
| 10:26:57 | amiconn | Plus, using different orientations doesn't necessarily mean a different framebuffer layout. Most newer lcd controllers have switchable update directions |
| 10:27:36 | markun | I didn't find such an option in the S6D0129 datasheet, but I might have missed it |
| 10:27:55 | markun | or do you mean the LCD controller part in the SoC? |
| 10:28:26 | gevaerts | LinusN: yes |
| 10:28:40 | LinusN | regarding the memory address contention theory |
| 10:29:14 | * | gevaerts listens, hoping to gain new insights |
| 10:29:28 | LinusN | i don't know an awful lot about the portallayer, but is there a separate code and data cache? |
| 10:29:35 | LinusN | portalplayer |
| 10:29:46 | LinusN | it's unified, isn't it? |
| 10:30:43 | gevaerts | I'm not sure, but I didn't find any mention of separation in MrH's memory controller document |
| 10:31:02 | LinusN | i was thinking what would cause the contention |
| 10:31:25 | amiconn | 8KB unified cache, per core |
| 10:31:32 | LinusN | first of all, we could have the wrong dma priority |
| 10:31:50 | * | pondlife wonders if any decision on date/location of DevCon2008 (Euro) will occur. |
| 10:31:59 | * | LinusN too |
| 10:32:03 | pondlife | Calling all Swedish Dictators.... |
| 10:32:24 | LinusN | i was under the impression that the Berlin maffia was investigating |
| 10:32:51 | pondlife | Date is more critical for me, really. |
| 10:32:53 | LinusN | if not, i don't see any problem with having it in stockholm once again |
| 10:33:01 | pondlife | I can do either Berlin or Stockholm |
| 10:33:31 | LinusN | gevaerts: do you have a clue to what code is executed the most in usb mode? |
| 10:33:32 | pondlife | Would slightly prefer Stockholm as (a) I've never been and (b) it's the Home Of Rockbox |
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| 10:34:01 | markun | pondlife: don't expect to see much of stockholm during the devcon :) |
| 10:34:02 | LinusN | "Stockholm - the home of Rockbox" - has a certain ring to it |
| 10:34:17 | LinusN | i'll call the mayor |
| 10:34:28 | pondlife | markun: Haha, that's not a problem... I just like seeing new airports. |
| 10:34:30 | gevaerts | LinusN: from what I can see, only the tick handlers and (if the code uses double buffering) the ata driver |
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| 10:35:05 | markun | I would prefer Berlin I think |
| 10:35:05 | LinusN | gevaerts: what if the scheduler ran in IRAM? |
| 10:35:33 | pondlife | Hmm, looking at http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=16108.0 - shouldn't "Show Files - Supported" include video files? |
| 10:36:03 | LinusN | gevaerts: it could be that the ATA register accesses are synchronized, and has a bad impact on the bus |
| 10:37:12 | * | petur could go by car to Berlin and pick up markun on the way ;) |
| 10:37:30 | markun | that would be even better :) |
| 10:37:34 | gevaerts | LinusN: ATA (or SD for sansa) does contribute to the problem, but it's not the only cause. And while putting the scheduler in IRAM might help, I doubt if it's a good solution in the long term |
| 10:37:38 | markun | or we can go to stockholm by car ;) |
| 10:38:07 | petur | whoa |
| 10:38:24 | LinusN | gevaerts: so maybe dma priority is the issue then |
| 10:38:28 | * | petur found tickets for Stockholm for 10 euro :) |
| 10:38:31 | * | gevaerts volunteers to share that car as well if the date is possible |
| 10:38:53 | markun | rockbox roadtrip |
| 10:39:04 | * | petur adds taxes and ends up at 98,57 euro - still not bad |
| 10:39:21 | petur | markun: trunk full of beer ;) |
| 10:39:21 | | Join pixelma [50] (i=pixelma@rockbox/staff/pixelma) |
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| 10:39:36 | LinusN | Rockbox Euro Tour 2008 |
| 10:39:51 | gevaerts | LinusN: I think it's something like that, but I have no clue on how to solve it (or even where to look). The USB controller doesn't seem to use the portalplayer "sidma" engine (or at least we don't configure it - maybe that's the problem) |
| 10:39:55 | * | pondlife probably can't make any date before July 19th now... :/ |
| 10:40:07 | LinusN | ouch |
| 10:40:29 | pondlife | Either that or 2nd May :) |
| 10:40:46 | pondlife | I'm assuming it's a Friday-Sunday thing, as normal. |
| 10:44:24 | pixelma | there was a change by amiconn to the DevCon2008 page yesterday... |
| 10:44:27 | | Quit chrisjs169 (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) |
| 10:44:57 | * | gevaerts runs to the wiki to have a look |
| 10:45:37 | pondlife | "Have free hosting location" |
| 10:45:39 | pondlife | :) |
| 10:48:08 | * | gevaerts promises to buy everyone at the DevCon a beer if the date is decided this week |
| 10:48:33 | * | pondlife decides on a date |
| 10:48:39 | pondlife | Can I have my beer please? |
| 10:48:46 | Bagderr | beer! |
| 10:48:55 | LinusN | beeeeeer! |
| 10:49:03 | gevaerts | pondlife: not _a_ date, _the_ date |
| 10:49:06 | * | petur gets overloaded by triggers |
| 10:49:13 | pondlife | gevaerts: Pedant :p |
| 10:49:59 | * | pondlife would hope petur has a suitable sound associated with his beer trigger |
| 10:51:02 | | Quit tvelocity (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 10:51:03 | | Join handmadematters [0] (n=handmade@dslb-084-056-191-177.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 10:51:30 | markun | Bagderr: did you get any thinking done since last may? :) http://svn.rockbox.org/viewvc.cgi?view=rev&revision=13415 |
| 10:52:18 | Bagderr | haha |
| 10:52:31 | Bagderr | that's fallen into a large black hole |
| 10:53:10 | Bagderr | but yeah, I should pick up that issue again and see what I can do about it |
| 10:53:12 | | Quit HellDragon (Connection timed out) |
| 10:53:48 | pixelma | GodEater: was my little rant about using "not supported" instead of "doesn't run" in the "ipodpatcher.exe..." thread too subtle? ;\ |
| 10:53:55 | LinusN | like my project manager said, "It's on my list of priorities" |
| 10:54:05 | * | pondlife adds a potentially controversial discussion point to the wiki |
| 10:54:23 | handmadematters | Isnt RbUtil running on OSX 10.4 ??? As far as i remember i saw something like min version 10.4 in the Subversion log |
| 10:54:43 | Bagderr | *more* playlist-centric? |
| 10:54:51 | * | LinusN revokes pondlife's wiki write access |
| 10:55:56 | GodEater | pixelma: where did I screw up ? |
| 10:58:17 | pixelma | http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=15859 (I think it' important) |
| 10:58:54 | GodEater | I didn't post there did I? |
| 10:59:26 | pixelma | no but you used it http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=16019.msg120497#msg120497 |
| 10:59:27 | * | gevaerts proposes to change the playlist into an "action list", so e.g. changing the volume will be done by inserting a "change volume action" at the appropriate point in this list. This will enormously simplify the GUI |
| 11:00 |
| 11:00:11 | GodEater | pixelma: right - but there I was quoting one of the previous posters... |
| 11:00:19 | pixelma | GodEater: or do you disagree? |
| 11:00:29 | | Join HellDragon [0] (i=jd@unaffiliated/helldragon) |
| 11:00:37 | * | gevaerts puts on his "don't take me too seriously" shirt |
| 11:01:52 | * | GodEater clarifies his post. |
| 11:02:13 | pondlife | gevaerts: Playlists should ultimately support videos, why not also cfg files? |
| 11:02:17 | pondlife | :) |
| 11:02:24 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 11:02:59 | GodEater | pixelma: is that better ? |
| 11:03:02 | | Join Thundercloud [0] (n=thunderc@84-51-130-71.judith186.adsl.metronet.co.uk) |
| 11:03:06 | gevaerts | Actually, now that you mention it, that might be useful in some circumstances (e.g. <insert far-fetched use case here>) |
| 11:03:35 | pondlife | gevaerts: Switching shuffle on and off...? |
| 11:03:56 | pondlife | Imagine a playlist that tells itself to shuffle... ;) |
| 11:04:07 | pondlife | On second thoughts, don't. |
| 11:04:19 | pixelma | GodEater: yes, thanks |
| 11:04:31 | barrywardell | handmadematters: it should run on any version since 10.4 |
| 11:04:48 | * | gevaerts was thinking more along the lines of changing the WPS and/or backdrop to suit the currently playing music. Much more powerful than this 'album art' thing |
| 11:05:42 | pondlife | Either way, the current UI has evolved such that the playlist viewer is rather peripheral. Stuff like it not working with iTunes filenames are important I think. |
| 11:06:22 | pondlife | Which comes back to how we deal with playlists generally - generation of big playlists could be speedier I hope. |
| 11:09:25 | | Join DerPapst [0] (n=DerPapst@p5B23D6A9.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 11:09:55 | * | DerPapst wonders when gevaerts idea makes it into flyspray as a request... |
| 11:11:59 | * | Bagderr wonders how much longer we will have a feature-request tracker |
| 11:13:24 | Bagderr | can anyone think of a recent feature request being filed that was useful to us? |
| 11:13:30 | * | DerPapst suggest to sut it down it and add all requests to the gsoc08 page, removing the red on top of the page. |
| 11:13:41 | DerPapst | *shut even |
| 11:15:34 | linuxstb | Bagderr: I agree the feature tracker has become useless, but I wouldn't like to lose it completely - e.g. if someone mentions (e.g. in the forums, mailing lists or IRC) a good idea, we should be able to keep track of it somehow. |
| 11:15:52 | linuxstb | Would limiting feature requests to devs be a bad idea? |
| 11:16:06 | * | linuxstb runs |
| 11:16:18 | | Quit linuxstb_ (Remote closed the connection) |
| 11:16:31 | DerPapst | people will keep making requests. even with that limitation. Either as bug or as patch |
| 11:17:10 | | Join Shaid [0] (n=adam@124-168-57-104.dyn.iinet.net.au) |
| 11:17:14 | gevaerts | Can we add a "feature requests" section to the forum that is invisible to the devs ? |
| 11:17:51 | DerPapst | hehehe |
| 11:20:05 | pondlife | Yep, keep the FR option so people don't clog up the bug tracker. |
| 11:20:25 | | Join disorganizer [0] (n=c2785409@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-05ca2a01d0dfdf0d) |
| 11:20:42 | DerPapst | maybe auto-reject all feature requests after a week? :-P |
| 11:21:10 | pondlife | FRs are easy to ignore.... ;) |
| 11:21:18 | disorganizer | just make a bot closing them stating "this features is not work the effort and binary size" |
| 11:21:20 | Bagderr | I think we already pretty much ignore them |
| 11:21:32 | DerPapst | heh |
| 11:22:24 | Bagderr | I can see the tracker being useful for devs adding ideas so that they aren't forgotten, I see no use at all for Joe User to submit random wild thoughts |
| 11:22:38 | disorganizer | but to be honest: why not run a script once a day closing every feature request which did not get an answer within a week? |
| 11:22:52 | pondlife | disorganizer: Because good ideas would get lost? |
| 11:23:03 | pondlife | It's for long-term storage of ideas |
| 11:23:04 | disorganizer | no, you can also see closed threads |
| 11:23:15 | Bagderr | I think limiting it to allow devs only to submit them would be good enough |
| 11:23:38 | pondlife | Although that might result in more invalid bug reports being filed... |
| 11:24:00 | pondlife | ..which I guess we can deal with, but not say "log an FR". |
| 11:24:12 | disorganizer | but there also good ideas may be lost just because someone is a non-dev. propably having feature-request being filed by users via the forum and devs being able to put them on the tracker if seen fit would be the best idea? |
| 11:24:12 | gevaerts | I see two reasons : (1) if a dev adds an idea just to remember it, it's pretty likely that it won't get a comment soon, and (2) that would be asking for duplicates. At least now some people search the list and add a comment to an existing entry |
| 11:24:49 | Bagderr | auto-closing seems pointless to me |
| 11:25:12 | * | gevaerts was talking about why not to auto-close, in case that wasn't clear |
| 11:25:24 | pondlife | Does Flyspray know who's a dev? |
| 11:25:31 | JdGordon | yes |
| 11:25:42 | * | JdGordon rudly barges in on the convo :p |
| 11:25:45 | | Nick disorganizer is now known as dis_afk (n=c2785409@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-05ca2a01d0dfdf0d) |
| 11:25:59 | Bagderr | there are "groups" in flyspray and each user has one assigned to them |
| 11:26:00 | pondlife | JdGordon: That wasn't rude, that was useful |
| 11:26:09 | * | pixelma wanted to just comment on a feature request but then decides to close the task... |
| 11:26:10 | Bagderr | only devs are allowed to close tasks etc |
| 11:27:10 | * | gevaerts points out that the dev groups on forum, svn and fs are not synchronised automatically |
| 11:27:21 | JdGordon | or at all? |
| 11:27:30 | markun | Bagderr: what do you think about adding a "HAVE_ATA" instead of checking for model numbers in firmware/SOURCES? |
| 11:27:55 | Llorean | pondlife: On a note relating to something you said earlier, I really would kinda like to see playlists allowing any "supported" file type as long as it didn't break playlist auto-creation (auto-creation should still be restricted to things for which there are .codecs I think, or possibly have a mode setting between the two). |
| 11:27:56 | Bagderr | sounds like an improvement to me |
| 11:28:17 | pondlife | Llorean: That was gevaerts' idea, I should point out! |
| 11:28:24 | pondlife | But yes, I agree with you |
| 11:28:27 | Bagderr | (that was for markun) |
| 11:28:41 | * | gevaerts puts rockbox.mi4 in his playlist |
| 11:28:53 | Llorean | pondlife: Well, he mentioned WPSes in it. You mentioned videos. |
| 11:29:07 | Llorean | At least, that I saw in the logs on my tiny phone screen. |
| 11:29:15 | pondlife | Long term, I'd hope videos would become codecs too. |
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| 11:29:49 | JdGordon | Llorean: .txt and .mu3 in a playlist? |
| 11:29:59 | | Quit DerPapst (Nick collision from services.) |
| 11:30:05 | Llorean | JdGordon: If users want to, sure. I can't think of a real use for .txt, but I wouldn't mind .m3u |
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| 11:30:23 | pondlife | m3u with recursion...? |
| 11:30:35 | gevaerts | That could get tricky |
| 11:30:36 | Llorean | You can already "insert" a .m3u, and get all the songs within it. |
| 11:30:58 | pondlife | Which is enough, IMHO. |
| 11:31:36 | Llorean | Well, there's a feature request for including folders, which i suppose would be dynamically expanded on playlist load. |
| 11:31:36 | gevaerts | What if this second .m3u contains the first one ? |
| 11:32:07 | Llorean | I'd say including a .m3u should include expansion on load as well. (And should not be able to be recursed, so remember filenames of .m3us loaded) |
| 11:32:40 | Llorean | Though not expanding them on load, would be another means of handling shuffling albums without using database... |
| 11:34:45 | Llorean | pondlife: I'll settle for directories and extm3u support though. :-P |
| 11:34:55 | gevaerts | sub-playlists need to be thought about, but I think that it would be a good thing to allow basically any supported file type to be included in a playlist. Whether the UI allows them all is a different question |
| 11:36:16 | * | gevaerts dreams about automated bug finding through playlist-triggered RoLo |
| 11:37:19 | pondlife | Llorean: This is actually a distraction from my point. I think the UI is too browser-centric where it should be playlist-centric. This is a personal opinion, of course; I wouldn't want to prevent the existing setup from being used. |
| 11:37:36 | Llorean | pondlife: More playlist centric in what way? |
| 11:38:10 | pondlife | I'd like to be able to have the playlist viewer as my main screen, and also think it should handle tags (not rely on filenames) |
| 11:38:19 | Llorean | Handling tags is a difficulty. |
| 11:38:24 | Llorean | Why not EXTM3U? |
| 11:38:33 | pondlife | It seems a hidden, unloved cousin at the moment |
| 11:38:40 | Llorean | When Rockbox creates a playlist, it can embed tags as EXTM3U data anyway. |
| 11:38:59 | pondlife | EXTM3U would be a solution. |
| 11:39:26 | pondlife | The playlist creation is rather slow at the moment anyway, so it might all need rework |
| 11:39:45 | markun | I don't see IAUDIO_7 defined anywhere |
| 11:40:53 | Llorean | pondlife: A couple things I'd like to see about playlists, while we're at it: It marks an item as "the currently playing item" when playback is stopped, I think. This is bad (especially since it doesn't mark the resume point anyway). |
| 11:40:55 | barrywardell | since cabbiev2 is the default theme now, do people think the default background/foreground colours should be black/white? |
| 11:41:45 | pondlife | Llorean: Stoped or not should make minimal difference to the playlist |
| 11:41:49 | Llorean | pondlife: And if the playlist is going to be still visible while stopped, the "Insert" option should actually *insert* in the visible playlist, and "Play Now" should be the new first option on the insert menu to preserve old behaviour. |
| 11:42:02 | Llorean | pondlife: Well, used to be there was no "playlist" while stopped. |
| 11:42:04 | pondlife | Yes |
| 11:42:07 | Llorean | Now there is. |
| 11:42:12 | Llorean | Or rather, there sorta is. |
| 11:42:13 | pondlife | There definitely should bne |
| 11:42:13 | JdGordon | barrywardell: na, leave them as is |
| 11:42:22 | pondlife | s/bne/be |
| 11:42:22 | Bagderr | markun: that port hasn't gotten anywhere so it could very well still have basic flaws |
| 11:42:33 | Llorean | pondlife: I don't see how there's a "Current" playlist while stopped. |
| 11:42:35 | barrywardell | JdGordon: why? |
| 11:42:41 | pondlife | Llorean: Why not? |
| 11:42:42 | JdGordon | for the purists :p |
| 11:42:43 | Llorean | I'd like the option to be renamed "Previous Playlist" |
| 11:42:53 | pondlife | Still current |
| 11:42:54 | Llorean | Because right now, "Insert" inserts in an empty playlist. |
| 11:43:06 | Llorean | So the actual behaviour of the OS conflicts with the current designation. |
| 11:43:13 | pondlife | That would change - we discussed before |
| 11:43:15 | Llorean | Basically, things need to make up their mind one way or another. |
| 11:43:20 | pondlife | Exactly |
| 11:43:29 | Llorean | But is there a "Current" song when stopped then? |
| 11:43:33 | pondlife | Yess |
| 11:43:38 | pondlife | It's just not playing |
| 11:43:43 | pondlife | Press play and it resumes |
| 11:43:56 | pondlife | So there's a current song, and song position at all times. |
| 11:44:12 | pondlife | IF a playlist ends, then there is no current song |
| 11:44:37 | pondlife | Currently it's a bit confused |
| 11:44:45 | Llorean | That seems kinda silly to me. You can "resume" a bookmark too, but it's not "current" |
| 11:45:18 | pondlife | Resuming a bookmark just sets up the corresponding playlist and position |
| 11:45:27 | Llorean | So does resuming by way of the play button. |
| 11:45:37 | pondlife | Yes, into the current playlist |
| 11:45:43 | Llorean | Into the last used playlist. |
| 11:45:56 | pondlife | semantics... call it current... |
| 11:46:16 | pondlife | Stop doesn't destroy a playlist though |
| 11:46:21 | Llorean | This whole discussion was *on* semantics in the first place, I asked if "Current" was a valid term. |
| 11:46:22 | pondlife | Starting a new one does |
| 11:46:24 | Llorean | No, stop shuts down playback. |
| 11:46:36 | Llorean | If you close Winamp, do you still have a current playlist? |
| 11:46:46 | pondlife | No idea |
| 11:46:49 | pondlife | I don't use winamp |
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| 11:47:03 | Llorean | If you close media player X, do you still have a current playlist when it's not running? |
| 11:47:04 | pondlife | But I would like to start it up and have it resume where I last wa |
| 11:47:05 | pondlife | s |
| 11:47:16 | pondlife | Llorean: Yes, I do |
| 11:47:22 | GodEater | pondlife: winamp does that I think |
| 11:47:41 | | Join Nevtus [0] (n=Nevtus@unaffiliated/nevtus) |
| 11:47:51 | pondlife | I dion't see a need to clear the current playlist until you start a new one. |
| 11:48:02 | GodEater | nor me |
| 11:48:05 | pondlife | e.g. by selecting in a browser or loading a new one |
| 11:48:45 | Llorean | There's not a "need" to misname it though, either. |
| 11:48:58 | Llorean | If you call it "Previous", people know it's not running right now. It makes it clear playback is stopped. |
| 11:49:04 | markun | Bagderr: ok to commit? http://130.89.160.166/rockbox/have_ata.diff |
| 11:49:06 | pondlife | No, that's the point |
| 11:49:12 | Llorean | I'm not saying it shouldn't be cleared, I'm discussing the nomenclature. |
| 11:49:14 | pondlife | It is still current, but stopped |
| 11:49:20 | Llorean | It's also Previous. |
| 11:49:24 | pondlife | Previous could refer to the one before that |
| 11:49:27 | Llorean | It is not active. |
| 11:49:38 | pondlife | Current, but not active. |
| 11:49:39 | Llorean | Okay, if I press stop, no song is playing. |
| 11:49:40 | Bagderr | markun: looks fine, shoot! |
| 11:49:47 | Llorean | So, the song that was previously playing is the "previously playing song" |
| 11:49:48 | GodEater | until it gets cleared, I'd call it current |
| 11:49:57 | Llorean | And the playlist that was previously running was the "previously running playlist" |
| 11:50:00 | Bagderr | I modified the source tarball script, I need a commit to see how it works ;-) |
| 11:50:04 | pondlife | Yes, but the playlist is still active and valid |
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| 11:50:14 | Llorean | It's valid, but not active. |
| 11:50:22 | GodEater | it is playback which has become inactive |
| 11:50:23 | pondlife | I think current song and current playlist are easier terms |
| 11:50:24 | GodEater | not the playlist |
| 11:50:29 | markun | Bagderr: I just wandered if MMC and ATA could exist in the same device. The #else makes it impossible. |
| 11:50:35 | markun | wondered even |
| 11:50:53 | | Quit webguest78 (Client Quit) |
| 11:50:58 | Llorean | pondlife: In what way. While we remember that they're there, they are not in use, right now. That's kinda what current means: right now, active. |
| 11:51:00 | Bagderr | markun: the only mmc devices are the ondios afaik |
| 11:51:13 | Llorean | They are not in use. |
| 11:51:18 | Llorean | That's explicitly what stop DOES, it stops using them. |
| 11:51:19 | GodEater | it's still there |
| 11:51:23 | Llorean | Pause leaves it in use. |
| 11:51:31 | Llorean | GodEater: It's always there, on disk, somewhere. |
| 11:51:39 | GodEater | it's also still in memory |
| 11:51:43 | markun | Bagderr: don't we have players with sdcard slots? |
| 11:51:45 | barrywardell | JdGordon: by "for the purists" you mean nostalgic reasons? In that case I'll leave it |
| 11:52:05 | GodEater | markun: we think the Tatung Elio is the only player with an sdcard slot |
| 11:52:08 | pondlife | Stop and pause should behave the same in this regard. Although the UI stays on the WPS for pause. |
| 11:52:17 | Llorean | GodEater: Only in a temporary sense. If you "Insert" a single song, it clears. |
| 11:52:28 | Llorean | pondlife: No, "Stop" needs to clear the playback buffer for other features to work. |
| 11:52:53 | Llorean | Users should know that there are distinct differences between "Stopped" and "Paused", and distinct naming between things helps illuminate this. |
| 11:52:56 | pondlife | Yes, but that will be changed into 2 options "Insert into new playlist" (first) and "Insert into current playlist" |
| 11:53:01 | GodEater | Llorean: but if I choose to save it, it doesn't get cleared, and is therefore still current |
| 11:53:40 | pondlife | There is generally always a current playlist - it might be dynamic or saved, but it's always there. Except when you just installed Rockbox. |
| 11:53:43 | Llorean | GodEater: It's inactive until you resume it. |
| 11:54:15 | Bagderr | markun: still, I don't think your patch makes that any worse, it still clarifies the situation |
| 11:54:19 | GodEater | no, playback is inactive |
| 11:54:23 | Llorean | pondlife: Okay, I've explained how "Current" can confuse users. Explain how "Previous" could confuse users? |
| 11:54:28 | GodEater | sorry, I completely agree with pondlife here... |
| 11:54:42 | pondlife | I think of previous as the playlist I was listening to before the current one |
| 11:54:47 | Llorean | People commonly ask how to clear their playlist. If they knew it was actually inactive while stopped, it would help. |
| 11:54:52 | pondlife | previous...current... next |
| 11:55:15 | Llorean | If you've stopped playback, the one you were previously listening to, as you ARE NOT listening right now, was what was "Current" when you were listening. |
| 11:55:16 | pondlife | Assuming you mean on insert, if the option read "Insert into new playlist" it would be clear |
| 11:55:25 | Llorean | It's called "time", and it doesn't pause when you hit "stop" |
| 11:55:35 | pondlife | Llorean: I might stop for a phone call.. |
| 11:55:44 | Llorean | Then hit the pause button... |
| 11:55:57 | pondlife | Pause doesn't work with voice |
| 11:56:02 | | Quit DerPapst (Nick collision from services.) |
| 11:56:11 | Llorean | pondlife: That's a problem that needs fixing, not a reason for naming things. |
| 11:56:17 | pondlife | True |
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| 11:56:19 | Llorean | How can "In the past" be "Current" |
| 11:56:21 | | Part handmadematters |
| 11:56:22 | Llorean | It's a contradiction in terms. |
| 11:56:24 | pondlife | It's not in the past |
| 11:56:27 | pondlife | It's still there |
| 11:56:29 | Llorean | You've shut down the playback engine. |
| 11:56:36 | GodEater | but the playlist hasn't gone anywhere |
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| 11:56:37 | Llorean | The playlist is a definition of the files the playback engine goes through |
| 11:56:42 | Llorean | It is not used by the rest of the OS |
| 11:56:57 | Llorean | The Playlist Viewer has the capability of showing you and allowing you to manipulate the previous playlist if playback is stopped. |
| 11:57:03 | pondlife | Yes, and those files are still there. pressing play shouldn't even need to read the disk. |
| 11:57:16 | Llorean | GodEater: It's *gone*. Just because you bring can bring it back instantly doesn't mean it isn't gone until you do. |
| 11:57:24 | pondlife | If you think of it as the current playlist, it makes much more sense |
| 11:57:35 | GodEater | it's not gone, it's still there in the playlist viewer |
| 11:57:49 | pondlife | We're not switching back and forth here, we're dealing with the same entity. |
| 11:58:00 | pondlife | It's still current until you start a new one |
| 11:58:15 | Llorean | pondlife: It has to reload from disk when you hit resume, so I don't understand your "shouldn't" |
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| 11:58:38 | pondlife | It shouldn't need to, that's just a weakness in the current code |
| 11:58:45 | Llorean | pondlife: By that logic, any text file I close is "the one I'm currently working on" until I start a new one, be it weeks later. It's silly |
| 11:59:11 | pondlife | STOP != CLOSE |
| 11:59:22 | Llorean | You're closing the playback system |
| 11:59:30 | Llorean | My whole point is that users need to *see* that it's being closed. |
| 11:59:43 | pondlife | But that makes Rockbox less flexible |
| 11:59:51 | Llorean | NAMING makes rockbox less flexible? |
| 12:00 |
| 12:00:00 | Llorean | Because other things depend on playback being closed down, so the distinction between stop and pause needs to be illustrated, not swept under the rug. |
| 12:00:06 | | Join handmadematters [0] (n=handmade@dslb-084-056-191-177.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 12:00:16 | pondlife | What other things? |
| 12:00:19 | | Part handmadematters |
| 12:00:22 | Llorean | Anything that needs the audio buffer. |
| 12:00:38 | Llorean | Several plugins, changing settings that require claiming more RAM, etc. |
| 12:00:43 | pondlife | Yes, but that's just a coding thing. The playlist remains. |
| 12:01:08 | Llorean | So, there's nothing currently playing, but there is a current playlist? |
| 12:01:12 | GodEater | yes |
| 12:01:20 | pondlife | Naming is just to make things clearer |
| 12:01:26 | Llorean | And calling it the "previously playing playlist" is too confusing for users? |
| 12:01:27 | GodEater | I can do the same thing in any number of media players |
| 12:01:34 | GodEater | hitting stop does no clear the playlist, it's still there. |
| 12:01:47 | Llorean | Let's take it to the users. "If you press stop, is the list you were listening to the current playlist, or the previous one?" |
| 12:02:14 | GodEater | I don't see how you can HAVE a previous one until you have a new current one. |
| 12:02:19 | Llorean | Find out which is least confusing to the masses, because I think your naming makes the distinction less obvious, and fuzzes things. |
| 12:02:32 | pondlife | The changeover point is when you start a new playlist, surely. |
| 12:02:38 | Llorean | GodEater: Why do you need a new current file playing to have a previous file playing? |
| 12:02:39 | pondlife | Not when you press stop |
| 12:02:39 | GodEater | absolutely |
| 12:02:53 | Llorean | By that rule, when the playlist ends naturally, it's still "Current" |
| 12:02:59 | pondlife | Indeed it is |
| 12:03:00 | GodEater | again yes |
| 12:03:12 | Llorean | So even though there's "Nothing to Resume" there's a current playlist? |
| 12:03:13 | * | Bagderr added the size of the source tarball on the build.rockbox.org listing |
| 12:03:13 | Llorean | That's absurd. |
| 12:03:18 | GodEater | no it's not |
| 12:03:27 | GodEater | I can choose to step back through the playlist without changing it |
| 12:03:27 | pondlife | No. The playlist is current, but the current song is off the end of the playlist. |
| 12:03:42 | Llorean | Okay, take THAT to our user base and see how many agree with you. |
| 12:03:45 | pondlife | Llorean: How much do you use the playlist viewer? |
| 12:03:48 | Llorean | The current song is not in the current playlist? |
| 12:03:55 | pondlife | It is |
| 12:04:03 | Llorean | "The playlist is current, but the current song is off the end of the playlist." |
| 12:04:09 | Llorean | "off the end" sounds like "outside" or "not in" to me. |
| 12:04:17 | pondlife | I mean the current song is nothing at that point |
| 12:04:22 | pondlife | But not outside the playlist |
| 12:04:35 | * | Llorean couldn't possibly have known you meant that. |
| 12:04:41 | GodEater | yes he could |
| 12:04:43 | pondlife | Sorry |
| 12:04:53 | GodEater | it was obvious to me at any rate |
| 12:04:54 | Llorean | GodEater: How was I supposed to know that his words meant other than what they say? |
| 12:05:21 | pondlife | I just think of the current track and offset as being based in the current playlist. |
| 12:05:34 | pondlife | So I may have assumed you thought the same. |
| 12:05:34 | GodEater | which they can't help but be |
| 12:05:41 | pondlife | Indeed |
| 12:05:58 | Llorean | So the current song is entry 101 in a 100 entry playlist. |
| 12:06:16 | GodEater | no |
| 12:06:20 | pondlife | Perhaps |
| 12:06:22 | Llorean | Which means the playlist is still active, the song is in the playlist, despite not actually being defined within or by the playlist, and the playlist is current despite the fact that you're not in it? |
| 12:06:33 | GodEater | there's nothing playing |
| 12:06:41 | Llorean | So there's no current song. |
| 12:06:44 | GodEater | there doesnt' have to be a current song for the playlist to no longer remain current |
| 12:06:44 | pondlife | Yes |
| 12:06:52 | pondlife | But the playlist is still current |
| 12:07:03 | pondlife | You could view it and skip backwards to track 100 |
| 12:07:07 | Llorean | Even though you're no longer IN the playlist, nor is it active, nor have you a playlist index? |
| 12:07:17 | Llorean | pondlife: You can view *any* playlist by selecting it. |
| 12:07:32 | pondlife | I'm referring to the current one |
| 12:07:33 | GodEater | only by loading it from disk |
| 12:08:10 | Llorean | So the fact that the previous playlist is buffered in RAM makes it always "current" even if there's no obvious sign that it's current to the user, up to and including "Nothing to Resume" messages? |
| 12:08:22 | Llorean | Not even "Go back in the playlist to resume" but actually "Nothing" |
| 12:08:47 | * | markun doesn't have a clue what these guys are discussing about |
| 12:08:48 | pondlife | Like I said, the UI isn't too playlist-centric at the moment, but it should be more. |
| 12:09:10 | pondlife | Start Menu > Current Playlist or similar would help |
| 12:09:14 | | Join BigBambi [0] (n=86ceaf40@rockbox/staff/BigBambi) |
| 12:09:17 | BigBambi | Alright chaps |
| 12:09:27 | amiconn | markun: You forgot to adjust the #endif comment |
| 12:09:39 | markun | amiconn: yes, I did. I'll change it |
| 12:09:44 | pondlife | Currently it's hidden a bit under Playlists |
| 12:09:46 | Llorean | pondlfe: Seriously, if we're going to do this, we should see which makes more sense to users. If I'm wrong, and users like "Current" better fine, but I suggest we do ask them "If you hit 'Stop', and music is no longer playing, is what you listened to the Current or Previous playlist" and see which is less confusing (more popular) to them. |
| 12:09:52 | markun | amiconn: I might as well use #elif defined(...) |
| 12:09:57 | GodEater | Llorean: you're still wrong - I've just had a playlist finish on my player. I got to the playlist menu, and choose "View current", and "oh wow - the playlist is STILL there" |
| 12:09:58 | | Join MethoS [0] (n=clemens@host-091-096-212-192.ewe-ip-backbone.de) |
| 12:10:06 | BigBambi | For me, it is current |
| 12:10:20 | * | DerPapst votes for "curret" too and hides |
| 12:10:25 | Llorean | GodEater: I never said you couldn't do that. What am I wrong about? |
| 12:10:44 | BigBambi | I think this comes from cassettes for me - the cassette may have stopped but it is still the current one on the machine. Until I play something else, it is current |
| 12:10:52 | pondlife | Llorean: Put a poll up if you wish, but you won't convince me it's inconsistent at the moment. |
| 12:10:55 | BigBambi | s/on/in |
| 12:11:07 | GodEater | nor me |
| 12:11:09 | pondlife | BigBambi: Cassettes, WMP... |
| 12:11:14 | GodEater | CD players |
| 12:11:20 | Llorean | pondlife: It's not your opinion I care about. It's "I think users would understand how Rockbox works a little better if it was named this way" |
| 12:11:29 | pondlife | OK |
| 12:11:31 | Llorean | pondlife: I understand fully your point of view on the matter. |
| 12:11:39 | Llorean | And I'm not saying you're wrong, in a purely technical sense. |
| 12:11:44 | pondlife | I agree with you, but think "Current" is clearer |
| 12:11:52 | Llorean | I'm saying "you're wrong, in a sense of what functionality is exposed to the user in each state" |
| 12:11:54 | GodEater | Llorean: well I disagree with you - I think calling something "Previous" when there's nothing replaced it is ridiculous |
| 12:11:59 | BigBambi | pondlife, GodEater: Sure, I just said tapes as that was my earliest form of music |
| 12:12:10 | pondlife | The point is that "Previous" makes the user think they can't get it back easily |
| 12:12:14 | Llorean | GodEater: Well tell my "current" girlfriend she's not spending enough time with me then |
| 12:12:17 | pondlife | Or that they have to do something to get it back |
| 12:12:18 | BigBambi | I don't think the technical sense matters to users |
| 12:12:19 | Llorean | GodEater: Seriously, that statement on its own, is absurd. |
| 12:12:35 | BigBambi | It is what people use in everyday language, technically correct or not |
| 12:12:41 | Llorean | pondlife: So if the button said "View Previous Playlist" it would make them think that they'd need to do something other than click it to get there? |
| 12:13:06 | Llorean | BigBambi: The idea is to make it clear that the playlist is not actually "in use" in the "playback" sense, right now. |
| 12:13:07 | pondlife | It would make me think of some kind of playlist history |
| 12:13:17 | amiconn | Llorean: The list is always current until it's replaced by a new one, regardless of playback state |
| 12:13:21 | Llorean | pondlife: How about "View Inactive Playlist" |
| 12:13:32 | pondlife | The playlist isn't inactive |
| 12:13:35 | pondlife | The playback engine is |
| 12:13:37 | GodEater | sorry the g/f comparison is spurious. You've "cleared" your playlist there. |
| 12:13:37 | BigBambi | Llorean: I understnqd that, I just don't think that users really care |
| 12:14:03 | BigBambi | I know they should care from the point of view that without freeing buffers, certain things won't work |
| 12:14:11 | Llorean | GodEater: Well, "Queue" and "Insert" functions all treat the playlist as having already been cleared, rather than acting like they do on a populated playlist. |
| 12:14:33 | Llorean | pondlife: So how will "Inactive" confuse users? |
| 12:14:40 | pondlife | It's not relevant |
| 12:14:49 | pondlife | View playlist is fine, surely |
| 12:14:52 | BigBambi | But lets face it, most people couldn't care less how it works, they just want it to work, and we aren't going to change people's use of English to make a technical distinction like that |
| 12:14:56 | | Join bughunter2 [0] (n=Administ@ip565fbeaa.direct-adsl.nl) |
| 12:15:09 | Llorean | pondlife: My point is to differentiate more clearly between "Playback Stopped" and "Playback Paused" |
| 12:15:20 | pondlife | I want to reduce that distinction |
| 12:15:33 | Llorean | pondlife: When playback is stopped the playlist is Present but Inactive. It is not being used, by or for anything, until you run another program that accesses it such as the viewer. |
| 12:15:34 | pondlife | Or eliminate it |
| 12:15:37 | Llorean | Presence != Activity |
| 12:15:43 | | Part Bagderr |
| 12:15:47 | Llorean | pondlife: What are you going to do about the playback buffer then? |
| 12:15:55 | pondlife | Not a lot |
| 12:15:56 | BigBambi | Ignoring technicalites, from a users point of view I don't think the difference between pause and stop should matter at all |
| 12:16:01 | GodEater | nor me |
| 12:16:02 | Llorean | pondlife: Then you can't remove that distinction. |
| 12:16:03 | pondlife | It will rebuffer if it needs to |
| 12:16:13 | pondlife | It will not rebuffer if the data is present |
| 12:16:16 | pondlife | That's it. |
| 12:16:24 | pondlife | The user shouldn't worry |
| 12:16:29 | GodEater | or care |
| 12:16:33 | Llorean | Then there's a distinction between Pause and Stop, since Pause will prevent the actions. |
| 12:16:37 | Llorean | Or will "Pause" still allow the actions? |
| 12:16:45 | Llorean | And you can end up needing to rebuffer after Paused? |
| 12:16:45 | pondlife | Pause still allows |
| 12:16:50 | pondlife | Yes, probably |
| 12:17:15 | Llorean | So basically, your proposal is "Playback is always active, no matter what" |
| 12:17:18 | pondlife | Pause is only of use if you need a fast resume AFAICT. |
| 12:17:27 | pondlife | Llorean: No, not that radical |
| 12:17:32 | Llorean | That's what you've just described. |
| 12:17:42 | BigBambi | Everything should 'pause', unless a subsequent action requires a 'stop', in which case a 'stop' is performed |
| 12:17:43 | amiconn | Pause != Stop makes very much sense to me... |
| 12:17:43 | Llorean | You can Pause, and you can Stop, but they do the same thing: Pause. |
| 12:17:44 | GodEater | I don't see why that would be a bad thing |
| 12:17:53 | GodEater | being as how Rockbox is for audio playback primarily |
| 12:18:09 | pondlife | This is a red herring, not my point at all |
| 12:18:34 | pondlife | My point is "We should consistently treat a playlist as valid, even after stopping playback. " |
| 12:18:44 | GodEater | yep |
| 12:18:50 | Llorean | pondlife: There's a difference between "Inactive" and "Invalid" and it's very distinct. |
| 12:18:54 | pondlife | i.e. the current playlist continues to live until replaced. |
| 12:19:21 | pondlife | I don't think we need to pop words like "Inactive" up to tell the user that playback is stopped. |
| 12:19:29 | pondlife | KISS |
| 12:19:51 | BigBambi | Thing is, from a users point of view, I don't want to have to care about Rockbox internals |
| 12:19:57 | pondlife | Exactly |
| 12:20:01 | Llorean | BigBambi: But unfortunately you DO have to care right now. |
| 12:20:04 | * | amiconn thinks the current behaviour is perfectly okay and shouldn't be changed |
| 12:20:11 | Llorean | And as long as you do, we shouldn't go out of the way to *hide* that state from you |
| 12:20:29 | pondlife | It's almost ok, but should be totally consistent |
| 12:20:32 | BigBambi | We should go out of the way to make it clear though |
| 12:20:40 | Llorean | BigBambi: Yes, that's what I've been saying... |
| 12:20:45 | LinusN | it would probably be more obvious if rockbox stayed in the wps when the current playlist has ended |
| 12:20:52 | BigBambi | But clear as in everyday language, not technical special cases |
| 12:20:56 | LinusN | or when you stop for that matter |
| 12:21:06 | pondlife | Not sure I like that idea much |
| 12:21:30 | pondlife | The WPS is a bit of a boring screen with no track |
| 12:21:33 | | Join Nico_P [50] (n=nicolas@rockbox/developer/NicoP) |
| 12:21:33 | Llorean | BigBambi: Hiding any distinction between a playlist that is actively being played, and not being played (so the buffer is free) though? |
| 12:21:40 | LinusN | i probably wouldn't like it either, i'm just saying that it would be more obviuos |
| 12:21:48 | Llorean | BigBambi: If you feel better language is needed than "Current" vs "Inactive", fine, suggest a replacement. |
| 12:21:53 | BigBambi | Llorean: Sure. |
| 12:22:16 | LinusN | pondlife: and i think it wouldn't be empty, it would display the last track with 100% played |
| 12:22:20 | pondlife | Ah, ok |
| 12:22:30 | BigBambi | Why should a user care if the buffer is free or not? If it isn't, and it needs to be, clear it. If not, playback resumes faster |
| 12:22:31 | pondlife | Might look like it's crashed |
| 12:22:33 | LinusN | (like many other commercial players do, btw) |
| 12:23:21 | amiconn | pondlife: I really don't understand what problem you're trying to solve |
| 12:24:26 | amiconn | There is a current playlist. If it's playing, 'Queue' and 'Insert' act on that one. If it's not playing, these commands start a new playlist. Convenient, and consistent. |
| 12:24:28 | BigBambi | Llorean: Besides, I came in half way through and probably missed the point. I don't have any major issues with the current behaviour myself, I'm just trying to see it from a plain users point of view |
| 12:24:34 | LinusN | amiconn: i think he tries to address the confusion many users seem to have regarding dynamic playlists |
| 12:24:54 | pondlife | amiconn: The bugs are elsewhere - try stopping and using View Current Playlist |
| 12:25:14 | pondlife | (With a big playlist generated from the database.) |
| 12:25:19 | Llorean | BigBambi: My only point is that "View Current Playlist" could be renamed when playback is stopped to something that makes it clear to the user that things are handled differently in this state, because it's not active (or in-use) at the moment, simply "Available" |
| 12:25:38 | pondlife | Llorean: I don't think that distinction needs to be made at all. |
| 12:25:43 | pondlife | It's still Current! |
| 12:25:47 | pondlife | Pop up your poll |
| 12:25:51 | amiconn | Yes, of course it's current |
| 12:25:51 | LinusN | i agree with pondlife |
| 12:25:57 | * | BigBambi too |
| 12:25:59 | | Join roolku [0] (n=roolku@77-99-112-231.cable.ubr16.edin.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 12:26:13 | Llorean | In a technological sense, YES. |
| 12:26:13 | amiconn | It's exactly what I would expect - I see that list that will start playing when I resume |
| 12:26:20 | Llorean | An a "the way Rockbox handles things from a user perspective" not so much |
| 12:26:24 | LinusN | amiconn: exactly |
| 12:26:40 | amiconn | LinusN: ?? I think you agree with pondlife? |
| 12:26:47 | GodEater | Llorean: but the point pondlife is making is about changing the behaviour to match the language |
| 12:26:51 | pondlife | amiconn: I get it loading and displaying a list, but with the marker at the wrong place |
| 12:26:51 | GodEater | you're going the other way round |
| 12:26:58 | Llorean | LinusN: You can't resume the "Previous" list, once you've stopped? |
| 12:27:16 | amiconn | Llorean: There is *no* previous list |
| 12:27:24 | LinusN | i can resume the current list |
| 12:27:29 | Llorean | GodEater: I'd accept changing the behaviour to match the language. But changing the language to match the behaviour can be done much more quickly, and easily, before then. |
| 12:27:39 | LinusN | since i can resume it, it is still current |
| 12:27:51 | pondlife | I guess my main problem is that a lack of clarity is making it tricky for me to know what is a bug and what is not... |
| 12:28:04 | Llorean | LinusN: So if you resume a movie you'd been watching previously, it's still the movie you're currently watching, even when not watching it? |
| 12:28:15 | GodEater | yes again |
| 12:28:21 | BigBambi | Llorean: What I think is that it should be called current, but that inserting shouldn't always wipe the playlist - perhaps insert into current and insert into new options would be the answer |
| 12:28:22 | pondlife | What about a book? |
| 12:28:27 | amiconn | No, it's the movie that's on the current list |
| 12:28:37 | pondlife | It's still my current read, even if I stop reading igt. |
| 12:28:38 | pondlife | it. |
| 12:28:40 | amiconn | Llorean: Current list != current playing item |
| 12:28:40 | LinusN | i don't use the dynamic playlists much, but i would expect the "insert" operations to insert into the current list even when stopped |
| 12:28:54 | amiconn | LinusN: They do |
| 12:28:55 | BigBambi | LinusN: Exactly |
| 12:29:17 | BigBambi | amiconn: If you stop playback, then do insert, you don't get a new playlist? |
| 12:29:20 | Llorean | How is the list NOT the currently playing item? |
| 12:29:24 | Llorean | You click on it, and it launches. |
| 12:29:25 | | Join MethoS- [0] (n=clemens@host-091-096-212-227.ewe-ip-backbone.de) |
| 12:29:36 | amiconn | These operations always operate on the current list (because there is only one list in ram at all times) |
| 12:29:41 | | Quit Shaid (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 12:29:43 | Llorean | each song is a sub-item, but the "list" defines what is played. |
| 12:30:19 | Llorean | amiconn: Currently, "View Current Playlist" shows you a list, but "Insert" while stopped plays a single song. |
| 12:30:21 | amiconn | It's just that these operations clear the list before inserting when stopped, and don't do that when playing (or paused) |
| 12:30:51 | amiconn | Llorean: Of course, because "Insert" changes the contents of the list |
| 12:30:52 | LinusN | amiconn: and that is not what i would expect |
| 12:30:52 | pondlife | I think there should be obvious options "Insert into new playlist" |
| 12:30:58 | GodEater | nor me |
| 12:31:01 | BigBambi | Nor me |
| 12:31:09 | * | Llorean already said that part. |
| 12:31:11 | GodEater | pondlife: how about just one option "clear list" |
| 12:31:20 | GodEater | and then the insert/queue options don't need to be changed |
| 12:31:27 | amiconn | It's something you can grasp quickly. And it's a very convenient thing for me |
| 12:31:29 | pondlife | I prefer the "Insert into new " |
| 12:31:35 | BigBambi | I would have too options - insert into current, and create new (or insert into new) |
| 12:31:44 | BigBambi | s/too/two |
| 12:31:44 | pondlife | Quickerm, and maintains current functionalilty |
| 12:32:08 | amiconn | It saves having an extra entry in the context menu, or needing extra steps to start a fresh list => convenience |
| 12:32:16 | pondlife | I agree |
| 12:32:17 | BigBambi | But confusion |
| 12:32:22 | Llorean | You need a way to clear the list. |
| 12:32:29 | Llorean | Otherwise you'd need duplicated of several options |
| 12:32:42 | Llorean | "Insert" "Insert Shuffled" "Queue" and "Queue Shuffled" all need an "Into New" option |
| 12:32:59 | pondlife | Only "Insert" and "Queue" do... |
| 12:33:05 | Llorean | No, the shuffled ones are needed |
| 12:33:13 | pondlife | Insert Shuffled doesn't appear with a new playlist |
| 12:33:16 | BigBambi | Right, insert into new starts a new one with that song, and all others function the same with whatever is the current - either what you have just listened to, or the 'new' one |
| 12:33:18 | pondlife | Ah, for a folder |
| 12:33:27 | Llorean | You can't insert a single song shuffled into an empty playlist |
| 12:33:31 | Llorean | It's very difficult on the playback engine. |
| 12:33:35 | Llorean | :-P |
| 12:33:38 | * | GodEater votes again for one extra entry on the playlist menu just to clear the list |
| 12:33:38 | BigBambi | :P |
| 12:33:49 | pondlife | If I stop, I don't get the Queue options. |
| 12:34:13 | GodEater | because the resume point is lost |
| 12:34:15 | Llorean | pondlife: Then just two more, though I think Queue should be available from stop. |
| 12:34:23 | * | GodEater does too |
| 12:34:29 | pondlife | Exactly, it's currently inconsistent |
| 12:34:36 | * | GodEater find himself agreeing with Llorean for the first time in several minutes ;) |
| 12:34:36 | pondlife | All I want is consistency |
| 12:34:36 | | Join XavierGr [0] (n=xavier@rockbox/staff/XavierGr) |
| 12:34:51 | pondlife | (and a working View Playlist) |
| 12:35:02 | Llorean | GodEater: The single, one, *only* point we've actually disagreed on is if something you're not using right now is "what I'm currently using" or "what i was previously using" |
| 12:35:22 | GodEater | yes but we disagreed a lot ;) |
| 12:35:24 | pondlife | Llorean: What about my book analogy? |
| 12:35:39 | pondlife | Does that work for you - "my current read" |
| 12:35:54 | pondlife | Even when the book is in the bedside drawer |
| 12:36:07 | Llorean | pondlife: I'm in the middle of "On Basilisk Station." I was previously reading it (at dinner), but am not currently reading it, as it is not being read, and no reading is taking place (discounting the words on the screen right now, which are not relevant) |
| 12:36:19 | Llorean | I have been reading it. |
| 12:36:24 | Llorean | But am not doing so in the present tense. |
| 12:36:35 | pondlife | It's not your previous read though. |
| 12:36:37 | Llorean | If someone looked at me, they would see that I am not, in fact, reading the book. |
| 12:36:49 | pondlife | It's your current book, when you are reading. |
| 12:37:07 | pondlife | In general parlance. |
| 12:37:08 | Llorean | I intend to finish it, yes. |
| 12:37:16 | GodEater | you'd confuse the hell out of me if you told me your previous read was a book that you then proceeded some hours from now to pick up again and continue reading. |
| 12:37:21 | BigBambi | It is the book you are currently reading in an ongoing sense |
| 12:37:24 | roolku | Bagder: the download mirrors haven't picked up the m:robe bootloader - it seems to be the same permission problem as last time |
| 12:37:33 | Llorean | GodEater: I would say "I've been reading <book>" |
| 12:37:52 | BigBambi | Which suggests you are no longer reading said book |
| 12:37:57 | Llorean | GodEater: I wouldn't say "I am reading <book>" unless you could look over at me and see an open book. At least, not intentionally say that. |
| 12:38:02 | BigBambi | I would |
| 12:38:11 | pondlife | perfect vs imperfect |
| 12:38:25 | pondlife | I was reading, I have been reading |
| 12:38:29 | Llorean | BigBambi: If it's not in my hands, open, then in the present tense, I am not actually reading the book. |
| 12:38:32 | pondlife | I read |
| 12:38:43 | pondlife | But it remains your current book |
| 12:38:45 | BigBambi | Llorean: You are in an ongoing sense |
| 12:38:53 | Llorean | I have been in the past. |
| 12:38:54 | pondlife | You are not currently reading |
| 12:38:58 | Llorean | I am not currenlty |
| 12:38:59 | BigBambi | And you will again |
| 12:39:01 | Llorean | I intend to in the future. |
| 12:39:14 | GodEater | Llorean: that's because you're odd. *Most* people would say that they were currently reading it. |
| 12:39:22 | Llorean | GodEater: Perhaps. |
| 12:39:24 | XavierGr | wow English class lessons :) |
| 12:39:26 | BigBambi | Everybody I know would say they are reading it |
| 12:39:38 | Llorean | And I agree, in common parlance, if you're not being very precise, "I am reading Book" works. |
| 12:39:44 | amiconn | 'Queue' isn't available when stopped, because playlist manipulation when playback is stopped clears the playlist before doing the actual operation. And you can't queue something in an empty list, so it's consistent as well |
| 12:39:56 | BigBambi | And it is also what the vast majority of the population would say |
| 12:39:57 | Llorean | But my whole point was that the playback system functions oddly, and we could introduce a distinction in terms to make it clearer, since it's not something likely to be cleared up soon. |
| 12:40:04 | GodEater | Llorean: the problem with our users is that they are "most people" and are not keen on precision. |
| 12:40:08 | Llorean | Using "common terms" to *hide* quirks of the system, seems silly to me |
| 12:40:19 | BigBambi | Llorean: In fact, you are the first person I have met who wouldn't say that |
| 12:40:21 | Llorean | If you use the "common term" for it, they'll expect it to actually work like that. |
| 12:40:22 | pondlife | We should also get rid of the quirks |
| 12:40:24 | Llorean | It doesn't, not yet. |
| 12:40:38 | Llorean | BigBambi: I know. I'm actually diagnosed with something. |
| 12:40:44 | Llorean | But my point isn't "I expect people to talk my way." |
| 12:40:57 | Llorean | It was "with precise wording we can make the quirks surprise people less" |
| 12:41:03 | pondlife | My point neither. My point is that Rockbox should be less quirky |
| 12:41:12 | Llorean | pondlife: Yes, but why should we hide them until it is? |
| 12:41:13 | BigBambi | But people won't get the nuances in the precise wording |
| 12:41:31 | Llorean | BigBambi: Thats why you use something as blatant as "Inactive" so people know they can't Insert into it. |
| 12:41:46 | BigBambi | I don't think people expect a DAP to require that level of subtelty of language |
| 12:41:47 | pondlife | Because it's better just to decide what it should do, then make it do that. |
| 12:41:49 | GodEater | I wouldn't even do that |
| 12:41:51 | | Quit Rick (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 12:41:52 | amiconn | Llorean: Imo there is no quirk in the current playlist behaviour at all. |
| 12:41:53 | * | BigBambi apologises for that spelling |
| 12:42:08 | GodEater | if it's inactive, the options to insert shouldn't be made available. |
| 12:42:15 | Llorean | amiconn: The quirk is that people don't expect to Insert to clear, since it doesn't say it does. |
| 12:42:31 | | Join Rick [0] (i=rick@pool-71-189-11-16.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) |
| 12:42:35 | pondlife | Indeed. That should be reworded. |
| 12:42:42 | Llorean | BigBambi: I don't see "Current" (or "Active") vs "Inactive" as particularly subtle. :-P |
| 12:43:05 | | Quit jhulst_ (No route to host) |
| 12:43:32 | * | BigBambi sticks his tongue out at Llorean |
| 12:43:35 | Llorean | pondlife: How long do you think it'll be, though, before the rest of the core doesn't care about the difference between stop and pause? Seriously, it's not like the word choice can't be reverted later. |
| 12:43:37 | amiconn | Then the item name should change when stopped |
| 12:43:51 | pondlife | Llorean: I'm not calling for that |
| 12:44:20 | amiconn | ...and not more |
| 12:44:24 | Llorean | As long as there's a difference between whether the contents of the playlist are in RAM or not, I'd say there's a distinction that should be made clear, somehow, to the user. |
| 12:44:36 | Llorean | Denoting the "current" playlist as Active or Inactive helps do this. |
| 12:45:11 | BigBambi | But here to me, inactive just suggests that it isn't right at this isntant playing, not that it'll disappear if I try to insert something into it |
| 12:45:18 | pondlife | The playlist is always still valid after playback is stopped, no need to put extra words in to explain that. |
| 12:45:26 | Llorean | BigBambi: Yes, but the "Insert" options still need to be changed. |
| 12:45:41 | Llorean | BigBambi: If it's not, at this instant, playing, that does clue you that things that require the playback buffer can probably use it, right? |
| 12:45:41 | BigBambi | Llorean: Yep :) |
| 12:45:45 | pondlife | The insert option wording should reflect what it's going to do. |
| 12:45:55 | | Quit MethoS (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 12:46:01 | pondlife | i.e. When not playing, display it as "Insert into new playlist" |
| 12:46:17 | BigBambi | Llorean: Me yes, users no - most probably have no idea what the playback buffer is, or why it is clear or otherwise |
| 12:46:24 | LinusN | markun: "Button Code Definitions for the toshiba gigabeat target" |
| 12:46:31 | Llorean | pondlife: Yes, but there's no reason to intentionally leave one word out that could make the actual state slightly more clear to the user |
| 12:46:50 | pondlife | But then users will also want "Insert into current playlist", rather than the less-than-obvious action of resuming playback then doing the insertion. |
| 12:47:03 | Llorean | pondlife: Don't see why they can't have that. |
| 12:47:09 | pondlife | Me neither |
| 12:47:40 | Llorean | BigBambi: Well, it'll still help some people. Do you think it could add confusion somewhere? |
| 12:48:19 | BigBambi | Llorean: No, it's a start :) |
| 12:48:24 | LinusN | my opinion is that the playlist manipulation functions should work regardless of playback state, and that there should be a "clear playlist" function |
| 12:48:26 | markun | LinusN: ouch.. |
| 12:48:45 | markun | didn't want to commit the meizu stuff |
| 12:48:55 | Llorean | LinusN: Works for me, but I still think the Active/Inactive thing is a valid "clue" for people in regard to knowing whether the RAM is claimed. |
| 12:49:06 | BigBambi | I agree with LinusN! |
| 12:49:37 | LinusN | i don't think the user cares about any claimed ram |
| 12:50:03 | Llorean | Some users don't know there's a difference between Stop and Pause. |
| 12:50:13 | GodEater | and nor should they have to |
| 12:50:14 | BigBambi | Llorean: It can't hurt, but I think the number of people you are helping is very small. Most people couldn't give a monkeys about the state of the RAM, or even that the player has any |
| 12:50:16 | pondlife | They shouldn't really need to care |
| 12:50:22 | Llorean | But they *do* need to right now... |
| 12:50:30 | LinusN | and i'm not sure there should be a difference |
| 12:50:34 | Llorean | Why shouldn't we fix the UI hints until they don't need to care any more. |
| 12:52:09 | LinusN | what are the exact differences between Stop and Pause anyway? There is a bug that prevents voice playback in paused mode, but what else? |
| 12:52:29 | pondlife | When paused the audio buffer can't be used by plugins |
| 12:52:52 | LinusN | the difference is even more unclear on players without a stop button |
| 12:53:10 | GodEater | and the "stop" button is a pain to use on the ipod imo |
| 12:53:19 | Llorean | I don't understand why we can have "Resume Playback" vs "Now Playing" but we can't distinguish in the same way between playlists... |
| 12:53:20 | GodEater | I often end up shutting down by accident |
| 12:53:21 | pondlife | Pause resumes instantly as PCM is kept filled |
| 12:53:29 | PaulJam | there is also a difference between stop and pause when using crossfade and selecting a new song. |
| 12:53:36 | pondlife | Llorean: Because there's no distinction |
| 12:53:47 | Llorean | pondlife: There's the exact same distinction as between those. |
| 12:53:48 | LinusN | Llorean: are you sure that the "current" vs "precious" naming is a real issue? |
| 12:53:50 | pondlife | Stopped or playing, the playlist remains |
| 12:53:55 | LinusN | previous |
| 12:54:02 | Llorean | LinusN: I'm trying for "Active" vs "Inactive" now. |
| 12:54:10 | pondlife | No need for any distinction |
| 12:54:22 | LinusN | i think there shouldn't be a distiction |
| 12:54:24 | Llorean | LinusN: My point is to distinguish that playback is not going, at the moment. Much like the "Resume Playback" vs "Currently Playing" entry in the main menu. |
| 12:54:35 | Llorean | We already distinguish. |
| 12:54:41 | pondlife | Yes, but that option will change playback state |
| 12:54:49 | pondlife | Viewing a playlist does not |
| 12:55:09 | LinusN | Llorean: we distinguish the menu action, not the playlist |
| 12:55:12 | | Quit DerPapst (Connection timed out) |
| 12:55:25 | LinusN | the playlist is the same |
| 12:55:29 | LinusN | the playback state is not |
| 12:55:34 | Llorean | The playlist isn't being used by playback. |
| 12:55:37 | Llorean | It's not active. |
| 12:55:49 | pondlife | No, the playback is inactive, not the playlistr |
| 12:55:53 | LinusN | it's being used by the user |
| 12:56:03 | Llorean | pondlife: by that argument, the song is active, but not the playback. |
| 12:56:09 | pondlife | Indeed |
| 12:56:30 | * | markun is making a complete mess today :( |
| 12:56:44 | LinusN | markun is having a bad svn day |
| 12:56:59 | markun | bad git day even |
| 12:57:03 | pondlife | "b7bd17ce1715c3a8acbf74a63694c28b6075da5b" ?? |
| 12:57:04 | LinusN | ah |
| 12:57:07 | Llorean | pondlife: Then why not permanently make the list entry "Currently Playing"? |
| 12:57:23 | Llorean | pondlife: Since, by your standards, when Paused or even Stopped, it's Currently Playing |
| 12:57:29 | pondlife | No |
| 12:57:34 | pondlife | Current != currently |
| 12:57:52 | pondlife | The point is that selecting that option will start playback |
| 12:58:00 | Llorean | Well you said I'm currently reading the book. |
| 12:58:06 | pondlife | No |
| 12:58:07 | Llorean | pondlife: It won't if you're Paused. |
| 12:58:09 | LinusN | Llorean: the playback state is one thing, the playlist is another |
| 12:58:11 | Llorean | It only resumes playback if you're Stopped |
| 12:58:19 | pondlife | I said the book is your current read |
| 12:58:33 | pondlife | Although you are not currently reading it |
| 12:59:24 | Llorean | What makes it current? |
| 12:59:30 | pondlife | If I'm paused, the menu option reads "Now Playing", it could also read "Currently Playing" |
| 12:59:34 | Llorean | That it was the one I most recently used? |
| 12:59:41 | LinusN | Llorean: you are still using it |
| 12:59:46 | pondlife | The English language, mainly |
| 12:59:47 | Llorean | LinusN: Not according to pondlife. |
| 12:59:52 | pondlife | Yes |
| 13:00 |
| 13:00:08 | LinusN | you can for example insert into it, or view it, or resume playback |
| 13:00:15 | pondlife | Llorean: Please stop putting words in my mouth |
| 13:00:20 | Llorean | pondlife: You said I'm not reading it. |
| 13:00:25 | Llorean | What use am I making of it, if not reading? |
| 13:00:43 | pondlife | I said.... you are not currently reading it. |
| 13:00:50 | pondlife | It is your current read, however |
| 13:00:57 | markun | Llorean: maybe holding it in your hands while you think about other things before continuing to read again |
| 13:00:57 | pondlife | English is not logical here |
| 13:01:15 | Llorean | And I asked "what makes it current", LinusN said "that you are using it" and I said "not according to Pondlife." Am I using it (the only use for it i have is reading) or not? |
| 13:01:17 | LinusN | english is not my native language, but i do understand pondlife's book analogy perfectly |
| 13:01:35 | pondlife | You are not currently using it |
| 13:01:39 | Llorean | Thank you |
| 13:01:42 | Llorean | Then I put no words into your mouth. |
| 13:02:06 | pondlife | You are reading it however |
| 13:02:15 | pondlife | But not currently |
| 13:02:15 | LinusN | now this discussion is getting silly |
| 13:02:18 | pondlife | Indeed! |
| 13:02:26 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 13:02:31 | pondlife | It got silly some hours back |
| 13:02:57 | Llorean | "(7:01:34 AM) pondlife: But not currently" <−− I thought i was currently doing some sort of verbing with it... |
| 13:03:22 | Llorean | Anyway, ignore verbs or tenses. |
| 13:03:30 | Llorean | My point is this: We distinguish between Stop and Pause in the main menu. |
| 13:03:32 | LinusN | as for the playlist, i think it's simple: the playlist is always the current one, even if you aren't playing it |
| 13:03:33 | pondlife | The point is the use of the term current in English. |
| 13:03:37 | Llorean | "Now Playing" while Pause, "Resume Playback" while stopped. |
| 13:03:50 | pondlife | Indeed, we do. I'm not arguing for a change |
| 13:04:03 | Llorean | This creates a distinct difference between "Active" and "Inactive" playback, and whether the playlist is _in use_, or merely _current_ |
| 13:04:03 | | Join qwedsa [0] (n=superman@ip51ccca31.speed.planet.nl) |
| 13:04:22 | pondlife | The action of selecting that option when stopped resumes playback. Otherwise it does not. Hence different wording. |
| 13:04:26 | Llorean | I'm not reading the book, but it is my "current read", to use your terms. |
| 13:04:45 | Llorean | I'm not listening to the playlist, right now, but it is my current playlist. |
| 13:04:49 | pondlife | Yes |
| 13:04:56 | Llorean | Why not distinguish between whether it's a Paused playlist or a Stopped playlist then? |
| 13:05:03 | pondlife | Why bother? |
| 13:05:10 | Llorean | Why NOT bother? |
| 13:05:17 | pondlife | KISS? |
| 13:05:21 | Llorean | What harm is done by adding a small amount more clarity? |
| 13:05:29 | Llorean | What simplicity is lost? |
| 13:05:31 | pondlife | More words often reduce clarity |
| 13:05:41 | Llorean | What clarity is lost, then? |
| 13:06:09 | pondlife | Why does the user need to have terms like "Stopped playlist" that make no sense. |
| 13:06:24 | pondlife | A playlist is a playlist, stopped or not |
| 13:08:02 | Llorean | Playback is simply the iteration through the playlist. If playback is stopped, the playlist is not in use for playback. |
| 13:08:13 | Llorean | If you aren't viewing it, then nothing is using the playlist. It simply exists, in ram. |
| 13:08:23 | pondlife | It remains the current playlist. |
| 13:08:29 | Llorean | Stopped or not, you can distinguish between Active and Inactive. |
| 13:08:33 | pondlife | No need |
| 13:08:40 | pondlife | I'm tired of this discussion |
| 13:09:08 | Llorean | You can't just dismiss it as 'no need' |
| 13:09:19 | markun | Llorean: stop it already |
| 13:09:20 | Llorean | It's clear that people don't realize there's a difference of state between "Stop" and "Pause" |
| 13:09:21 | pondlife | I can. I don't see any need at all. |
| 13:09:25 | Llorean | YOU don't see. |
| 13:09:29 | pondlife | I don't |
| 13:09:33 | Llorean | I do. |
| 13:09:38 | pondlife | Explain why it's important then |
| 13:09:41 | Llorean | Users do not see a distinction between "Stop" and "Pause" |
| 13:09:57 | pondlife | So, what's that got to do with the price of fish? |
| 13:10:00 | Llorean | As long as that distinction exists, more clues in the parts of Rockbox that users see (not the manual) helps make it clear the system is in a different state. |
| 13:10:12 | Llorean | "Active" and "Inactive" provide such a clue. |
| 13:10:17 | pondlife | The status bar makes that distinction clear anyway |
| 13:10:27 | GodEater | no, they provide more terms to confuse users with |
| 13:10:40 | GodEater | I predict *many* questions from users if such a term is introduced. |
| 13:10:45 | Llorean | GodEater: Nobody's presented me with how it's confusing yet, and I've asked more than once. |
| 13:11:10 | pondlife | I don't see a need or an explanation for one |
| 13:11:14 | GodEater | Llorean: you're addressing a bunch of technical people who understand the point you're trying to make. |
| 13:11:22 | GodEater | we all still think it won't gel with the users |
| 13:11:26 | GodEater | you're in a minority of one |
| 13:11:30 | BigBambi | People just don' t care about the technical minutiae, and nor should they have to. |
| 13:11:44 | pondlife | I don't think the users should need to know about the internal state - it should just work. |
| 13:11:52 | Llorean | GodEater: Being a minority doesn't mean you get to say "shut up, you're wrong, and I'm not telling you why" |
| 13:11:59 | GodEater | I haven't said shut up |
| 13:12:09 | GodEater | nor have I said you're wrong |
| 13:12:11 | BigBambi | Because of common use of language, technically correct or not |
| 13:12:23 | preglow | can someone give me a timestamp for the discussed issue? |
| 13:12:39 | GodEater | you can choose to use the english language in any way you please - but we're telling you that most people don't use it the way you do. |
| 13:12:51 | Llorean | GodEater: It's no longer an issue of using the English language. |
| 13:13:00 | GodEater | whether you like that or not is neither here nor there |
| 13:13:24 | pondlife | preglow: 10:40 GMT-ish |
| 13:13:29 | GodEater | it IS an issue of language |
| 13:13:31 | * | BigBambi is off to a french lesson - hopefully this will have finished when I get back in 4 hours |
| 13:13:36 | pondlife | hehe |
| 13:13:42 | pondlife | I need to work |
| 13:13:43 | Llorean | GodEater: How so? |
| 13:13:49 | GodEater | you want to use it to try to describe some inconsistent behaviour in Rockbox |
| 13:13:55 | GodEater | we'd rather fix the behaviour |
| 13:14:06 | Llorean | I want it to describe the behaviour until it's fixed. |
| 13:14:15 | GodEater | I don't |
| 13:14:18 | Llorean | Why not? |
| 13:14:21 | GodEater | I'd leave it alone until it's fixed |
| 13:14:32 | GodEater | because it doesn't cause enough grief to warrant the change |
| 13:14:35 | Llorean | It's been three years, I don't think this is being fixed soon. |
| 13:14:52 | | Quit Zarggg (Connection reset by peer) |
| 13:15:01 | GodEater | this is the first time I've seen it come up |
| 13:15:03 | Llorean | GodEater: Do you think this would honestly confuse users more? |
| 13:15:05 | pondlife | As long as we generally agree that a playlist remains valid after STOP, I can do the fix |
| 13:15:16 | | Quit BigBambi ("CGI:IRC") |
| 13:15:23 | pondlife | I was unsure of the intended policy until now |
| 13:15:33 | Llorean | pondlife: Including all the RAM issues? |
| 13:15:43 | pondlife | There are no RAM issues |
| 13:15:53 | Llorean | Plugins? |
| 13:15:57 | pondlife | The playlist remains valid. |
| 13:15:58 | GodEater | Llorean: I bow to your greater length of service time in the forums and mailing lists here of course, but I personally haven't seen many issues with this crop up amongst the users. |
| 13:16:20 | GodEater | if we were getting daily or even weekly "I don't get it" questions from users, I'd see the need to make the change |
| 13:16:23 | GodEater | but I don't see them |
| 13:16:40 | GodEater | so to quote an old adage "if it aint' broke, don't fix it" |
| 13:16:52 | pondlife | It's more for the clarity among developers that I asked... wish I hadn't now...:) |
| 13:16:56 | GodEater | and by that, I merely mean the terms, not the behaviour |
| 13:17:01 | Llorean | GodEater: What about the concept that, if it helps more than it hurts then it's beneficial? |
| 13:17:28 | GodEater | Llorean: we have no metric to measure that with unless we make the change, and find out one way or the other |
| 13:17:35 | pondlife | We disgree, but I think adding "Active"/"Inactive" hurts more than helps |
| 13:17:44 | Llorean | pondlife: But you refuse to tell me in what way. |
| 13:17:49 | Llorean | Or have thus far. |
| 13:17:51 | GodEater | my opinion, whether it matters or not, is to leave it alone |
| 13:17:53 | pondlife | I think it complicates matters |
| 13:17:58 | GodEater | I do too |
| 13:17:58 | Llorean | Complicates how? |
| 13:18:09 | GodEater | I don't understand the concept of an active or inactive playlist |
| 13:18:16 | GodEater | you either have one, or you don't |
| 13:18:20 | pondlife | Exactly |
| 13:18:22 | Llorean | GodEater: Stopped vs Paused. "In use by the playback engine" |
| 13:18:33 | pondlife | Why is that useful? |
| 13:18:38 | GodEater | Llorean: yes, *I* as an involved person, understand that. |
| 13:18:44 | Llorean | Why don't we have a "Resume Playback" button when Paused then? |
| 13:18:48 | GodEater | I predict that is the question you will get asked a LOT |
| 13:18:52 | GodEater | if you choose to use those terms |
| 13:18:54 | Llorean | if it's unuseful to distinguish, why do it anywhere else right now? |
| 13:18:59 | pondlife | Llorean: I already answered that twice |
| 13:19:05 | pondlife | Read the logs |
| 13:19:06 | Llorean | pondlife: No, you didn't. |
| 13:19:19 | Llorean | pondlife: You answered "why are they named different things." I just asked "why do they DO different things" |
| 13:19:51 | Llorean | We could just as easily have made the button "Resume Playback" whether stopped or paused, rather than "Now Playing" for the latter. |
| 13:20:12 | pondlife | "Why don't we have a "Resume Playback" button when Paused then" - we could, in fact we probabaly should |
| 13:20:16 | preglow | is there some kind of a core to this discussion? i can't be bothered to wade through hours of talk... |
| 13:20:26 | pondlife | preglow: Not really |
| 13:20:53 | preglow | seems to me you're all babbling on about semantics |
| 13:21:02 | pondlife | In summary - does a playlist continue to exist after you press STOP. Is it fair to call it the Current Playlist. |
| 13:21:03 | Llorean | preglow: I suggest that until such time as there is no difference in behaviour while Rockbox is paused vs stopped, we should distinguish the playlist in some way (active vs inactive) much like we do the WPS menu entry |
| 13:21:13 | Llorean | pondlife: I never denied that it continued to exist. |
| 13:21:21 | pondlife | This paused/stopped thing is a red herring |
| 13:21:28 | preglow | inactive/active playlist??? |
| 13:21:35 | preglow | why do we need that distinction? |
| 13:21:41 | pondlife | We don't |
| 13:21:43 | markun | preglow: ask Llorean |
| 13:21:57 | Llorean | Because users don't realize there's a difference between Stopped and Paused, so more changes in the UI between the two might highlight it... |
| 13:22:00 | preglow | there's no point in revealing any kind of internal state to the user unless the user benefits |
| 13:22:14 | preglow | and in this case, i don't think there's even any difference in internal state |
| 13:22:25 | Llorean | preglow: Users ask why voice doesn't work while "stopped". Users don't get why some plugins won't launch until they restart their player. Etc. |
| 13:22:32 | pondlife | Llorean: The user needs to know about stopped/paused, because of the differences re voice/plugins... |
| 13:22:35 | preglow | Llorean: they don't? i get it easily, pause pauses, stop stops, it feels like on a cd player |
| 13:22:38 | preglow | if i pause, it resumes faster |
| 13:22:57 | pondlife | Llorean: They don't need to care about "inactive" playlists. |
| 13:23:12 | pondlife | You are comparing apples and elephantss |
| 13:23:48 | * | pondlife has had the longest lunch hour ever and remains hungry... |
| 13:23:51 | pondlife | back in a bit |
| 13:23:53 | preglow | i agree it would be nice to make it easier for the user to understand the difference in state between paused and stopped, but i hardly think this is a good solutionm |
| 13:23:59 | preglow | it sounds confusing even to me |
| 13:23:59 | Llorean | pondlife: If the playback engine is not using the playlist, then the playlist is not being used by the playlist engine. I don't see how you could imagine it is in use. It's just available. |
| 13:24:18 | Llorean | er, playback engine. |
| 13:24:51 | pondlife | I don't imagine anything. I don't see that stopping playback makes any difference to the playlist. |
| 13:25:04 | preglow | me neither |
| 13:25:09 | pondlife | A playlist is a playlist is a playlist. |
| 13:25:23 | markun | Llorean: did you ever use a player like winamp or foobar2000? |
| 13:25:23 | Llorean | Yes, but it can be in use or not. |
| 13:25:29 | Llorean | markun: I've used both. |
| 13:25:41 | preglow | depends how you see the playlist being used, it's just an abstraction |
| 13:25:54 | pondlife | Llorean: Not really.. Playback can be in use or not, the playlist just sits there. |
| 13:26:03 | Llorean | pondlife: It is used *by* the playlist. |
| 13:26:08 | Llorean | Er playback engine |
| 13:26:11 | preglow | i don't see the playback engine taking hold of the playlist and releasing it when done, i just see it picking entries from it when needed |
| 13:26:13 | Llorean | It being the playlist. |
| 13:26:13 | pondlife | And the UI |
| 13:26:15 | preglow | it's never active or inactive |
| 13:26:33 | markun | Llorean: they also have playlists which keep being active even if playback is stopped |
| 13:26:33 | pondlife | You can do a lot of playlist work without using the playback engine |
| 13:26:48 | Llorean | markun: They keep being present when playback is stopped. |
| 13:26:49 | pondlife | The database uses it |
| 13:27:02 | markun | Llorean: yes, which I would like in rockbox too |
| 13:27:10 | Llorean | markun: They already stay present like that. |
| 13:27:44 | pondlife | markun: That was my initial point, I was unsure if this was intended originally, or had just migrated to working that way |
| 13:27:57 | Llorean | pondlife: No, it was intentional that they stick around. |
| 13:28:05 | * | Llorean would've answered that one, if asked. |
| 13:28:30 | Llorean | I saw when it was added. I just don't like that it was done without fixing the other issues. It made the UI less consistent, for the time being. |
| 13:28:40 | pondlife | Indeed, my point |
| 13:28:51 | pondlife | Thanks, you did answer earlier, too |
| 13:28:58 | preglow | Llorean: but ok, how does this concept of active/inactive playlist make the user easier understand the paused/stopped issue? |
| 13:29:05 | pondlife | It doesn't |
| 13:29:16 | * | dis_afk wonders if this discussion in worth the binary size of the log |
| 13:29:21 | preglow | it isn't |
| 13:29:22 | preglow | :-) |
| 13:29:27 | Llorean | preglow: It depends on whether you see the playlist as "a list of files" with emphasis on list, or "a list of files" as in, all the files, in a row. |
| 13:29:32 | GodEater | it clearly doesn't, because it's confusing the developers too |
| 13:29:36 | | Nick dis_afk is now known as disorganizer (n=c2785409@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-05ca2a01d0dfdf0d) |
| 13:29:56 | * | Nico_P chose not to follow and is glad he did :) |
| 13:30:08 | pondlife | Move along, move along... :) |
| 13:30:09 | preglow | Llorean: if we need that distinction to make sense of this concept, then it's flawed from a user's perspective |
| 13:30:26 | preglow | in being too complex |
| 13:30:39 | Llorean | preglow: My point is that I think for some users, it will make the state more clear. For other users, I don't think they'll case. But I don't think it'll cause any harm. |
| 13:30:41 | * | GodEater thinks we've done most of our only students work so far with this discussion ;) |
| 13:30:46 | * | disorganizer as user would prefer STOP to actually empty the playlist and clear the entires in "view playlist" to be honest :-) |
| 13:30:49 | Llorean | *don't think they'll care |
| 13:30:57 | | Quit MethoS- (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) |
| 13:31:01 | Llorean | disorganizer: It used to. |
| 13:31:06 | preglow | Llorean: i think plugins could just stop the playback engine if it happens to be paused and they want the playback buffer or any other resource used by playback |
| 13:31:11 | Llorean | disorganizer: Right now it's at kinda a halfway point, and needs to make up its mind. :-P |
| 13:31:12 | preglow | that'd fix that particular problem |
| 13:31:18 | Llorean | preglow: I agree. |
| 13:31:40 | Llorean | preglow: I've only suggested this as a temporary fix, since the whole engine has worked this way for so long, with people suggesting fixing it for a while. |
| 13:31:44 | disorganizer | llorean: it should again. this is the only logical behaviour users without technical knowledge can reproduce without looking in the manual ;-) |
| 13:31:57 | preglow | if it's playing, the plug should spout a warning |
| 13:32:21 | Llorean | preglow: It should sprout a prompt asking the user to stop playback. |
| 13:32:32 | preglow | would also work |
| 13:32:44 | amiconn | wow |
| 13:32:45 | preglow | would make for a nice pluginlib addition |
| 13:32:49 | disorganizer | why not: if you press stop it pauses, and if you press stop a second time within 2 seconds it clears the playlist and goes to "stop" state |
| 13:33:10 | pondlife | disorganizer: No way should stop clear the playlist. I do lots of playlist preparation on target and don't want to have to have playback started. |
| 13:33:21 | preglow | no such hidden actions on stop, please |
| 13:33:23 | preglow | and that's that |
| 13:33:34 | pondlife | It may be that the iPod keymap makes it seem different to H300.. |
| 13:33:37 | preglow | buttons should do what they say, and mostly only that |
| 13:33:43 | amiconn | Hours of discussion about minor UI string ambiguity. Just rename 'Insert' to 'Insert into new playlist' when stopped, and all is well |
| 13:33:45 | preglow | especially buttons marked as clearly as "stop" |
| 13:33:49 | pondlife | amiconn: Right |
| 13:33:53 | disorganizer | well, me as a user would expect stop to empty the playlist. then i can prepare a new one and hit play to start playback. that would be logical behaviour |
| 13:33:56 | * | amiconn thinks there are way more important things to fix |
| 13:34:08 | pondlife | Like my lunch. |
| 13:34:17 | GodEater | amen to that |
| 13:34:29 | amiconn | Like playback engine bugs in general, or e.g. non-working voice when paused |
| 13:34:53 | markun | amiconn: I would like any bugs to be fixed, also unimportant ones |
| 13:35:21 | markun | or at least less important that others |
| 13:35:29 | amiconn | markun: The #elif might not be that good an idea. It works for now, but wil need changing in case the Elio port will ever be picked up again |
| 13:35:30 | preglow | we should rather discuss what to rename those playlist actions, so they actually describe what they do properly |
| 13:35:33 | preglow | :) |
| 13:35:39 | Nico_P | amiconn: I'm precisely thinking of improvements to the playback engine :) |
| 13:35:48 | amiconn | (the Elio is hdd based *and* has an sd slot) |
| 13:35:54 | Llorean | preglow: They should keep the same names, never clear on their own, and the bottom option should be "Clear Playlist" |
| 13:36:04 | Llorean | Well, "Play Next" can keep its clear. :-P |
| 13:36:06 | markun | amiconn: I'm done with committing for today.. |
| 13:36:09 | * | amiconn disagrees with Llorean |
| 13:36:39 | * | GodEater agrees with Llorean |
| 13:36:44 | amiconn | No separate 'clear playlist' option, please |
| 13:37:00 | Llorean | amiconn: If we're going to show people a "Current Playlist" in the viewer, you HAVE to be able to insert into said 'current' playlist, or all reasonable argument that it's actually current goes out the window. :-P |
| 13:37:03 | amiconn | If you then forget to use it, your playlist will grow and grow and... |
| 13:37:38 | amiconn | Llorean: It *is* current, even if it's cleared when inserting from stopped state |
| 13:38:01 | Llorean | Not from a common sense perspective, though |
| 13:38:03 | disorganizer | so why not clear it on stop anyways? |
| 13:38:11 | Llorean | It's current from a "it's in RAM until it's cleared" perspective. |
| 13:38:16 | amiconn | disorganizer: Then you could *never* resume |
| 13:38:29 | markun | amiconn: so you need to start playback if you don't want to lose your playlist when you want to insert some songs? |
| 13:38:31 | Llorean | But common sense dictates that if it's currently your playlist, and you choose an action to be performed upon your current playlist, it merely does what that action explicitly says it does: Insert |
| 13:38:58 | disorganizer | you can resume on pause. try pressing stop on a cd-player |
| 13:39:16 | disorganizer | hit pause => you can resume, hit stop=> it starts from the beginning |
| 13:39:24 | Bagder | in other news: the gigabeat build is now named Gigabeat F/X on the site |
| 13:39:27 | GodEater | disorganizer: yes, but the playlist is still there |
| 13:39:36 | GodEater | the cd is still in the drive |
| 13:39:39 | Llorean | disorganizer: There's reasons why you *need* to stop, but still want Resuming (such as shutting down, for example) |
| 13:39:47 | GodEater | you want Stop to be similar to eject |
| 13:39:53 | GodEater | which we have no equivalent of |
| 13:39:56 | amiconn | Llorean: No, it's always in ram. You change its contents, not the fact that it's the current list |
| 13:40:07 | Llorean | GodEater: Well, if we're mimicing CD state, we should restart at entry 1 when stopped. ;)\ |
| 13:40:09 | markun | Bagder: great |
| 13:40:15 | amiconn | And the inconsistency can be resolved by changing the item name in the context menu when stopped |
| 13:40:32 | * | Bagder also reminds people that the www dir is in fact in use now... |
| 13:40:34 | amiconn | That's all that should be done, imo |
| 13:40:37 | disorganizer | in fact if i press stop imho the playlist will be my new playlist (just that it holds the content of my old playlist which i previously played) |
| 13:40:47 | Llorean | amiconn: Not from user perspective. If you load a .m3u, then for the user, that *file* is the current playlist. If you then stop, then insert, from a user perspective that's a new playlist, not the same current playlist, re-populated. |
| 13:41:16 | * | amiconn thinks that is the root cause of the misunderstanding |
| 13:41:26 | amiconn | The current playlist is what's in ram, at all times |
| 13:42:05 | Llorean | But the idea is to make things more common parlance relevant, rather than technically relevant, apparently. |
| 13:42:21 | amiconn | ? |
| 13:42:41 | Llorean | It should make sense from a user perspective. |
| 13:42:58 | Llorean | They shouldn't need to care what's going on behind the scenes. Which is perhaps the one thing all of us arguing before agreed on. |
| 13:43:46 | * | petur thinks this is a nice question to ask our usability study student to see how well he'll cope with the task :) |
| 13:44:05 | amiconn | I'm a user too, and the current behaviour makes very much sense to me. A cumbersome separate clear option woould piss me off |
| 13:44:28 | amiconn | Especially since 99% of my playlists are dynamic lists started by playing a file in a dir |
| 13:44:38 | Llorean | amiconn: What if we put the "Play Next" option at the top when stopped, so the current behaviour is preserved in terms of button presses? |
| 13:44:39 | | Quit CyBergRind|w ("!") |
| 13:45:00 | * | Llorean thinks: or better yet, add a "Play Now" option. |
| 13:46:23 | * | amiconn almost always either plays an album by clicking at the first file in a folder, or a various songs collection by using 'Insert shuffled' on a folder |
| 13:50:26 | * | petur too |
| 13:57:55 | roolku | Bagder: did you see me comment re: m:robe bootloader? |
| 13:58:13 | Bagder | no... |
| 13:58:19 | roolku | Bagder: the download mirrors haven't picked up the m:robe bootloader - it seems to be the same permission problem as last time |
| 13:59:02 | Bagder | ah indeed. I do suck! |
| 13:59:04 | roolku | poor bluebrother picked up an old bootloader and was confused... |
| 13:59:04 | Bagder | fixed now |
| 13:59:11 | roolku | thanks |
| 14:00 |
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| 14:07:05 | * | gevaerts notices that our gsoc applicant has an updated application |
| 14:07:14 | | Join erik006 [0] (n=erik006@76-10-136-171.dsl.teksavvy.com) |
| 14:13:31 | GodEater | gevaerts: imo that application still needs a lot of work |
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| 14:14:47 | gevaerts | GodEater: I agree. I also think it shows a lack of knowledge about rockbox |
| 14:15:12 | GodEater | yup |
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| 14:19:45 | GodEater | I'm not really sure where to start critiquing his modified application without either pulling it apart completely, or going the other way and spoon feeding him with questions we'd want answers to |
| 14:20:03 | leftright | as a simple user, only now do I understand the difference between stop and paused with regards to playlist actions due to the past discussion, I must admit that I stumbled upon Insert when stopped creates a new playlist, and that insert when paused will add to playlist, but creating a new playlist on the fly is very vague |
| 14:20:23 | daven | Hi there, I'm currently re-installing rockbox on an iPod Mini G2 that I've accidentally wiped the disk of, is there anywhere I can get the original disk image from? |
| 14:20:40 | daven | I'm running Linux, so don't have access to iTunes to recreate the installation |
| 14:21:10 | gevaerts | daven: have you seen http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/IpodManualRestore ? |
| 14:21:15 | pondlife | GodEater: Obviously, I've not seen the application, but I'd avoid any spoon-feeding. |
| 14:21:24 | daven | gevaerts: Nope, thanks for pointing me at it. |
| 14:21:37 | | Quit GodEater (Remote closed the connection) |
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| 14:22:50 | GodEater | pondlife: PM |
| 14:24:17 | leftright | Play Next is not very descriptive of a function which will replace the current playlist, "Replace" is more descriptive |
| 14:24:39 | leftright | or New playlist |
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| 14:24:52 | Llorean | leftright: "Play Next" already exists. It plays next, quite literally. It waits until the current song ends. |
| 14:25:16 | leftright | yes, but its not very descriptive of what it actually does |
| 14:26:08 | leftright | does it clear the playist as well as play selected next |
| 14:26:29 | Llorean | That's why it's not "Insert" |
| 14:26:51 | leftright | so it doesnt clear the playlist |
| 14:28:31 | daven | hm, this is interesting, rockbox seems to start, it gets past the checksum stage, reports "Rockbox Loaded" and then hangs... |
| 14:28:33 | Llorean | It does clear the playlist. |
| 14:28:53 | Llorean | If it were "Play next without clearing" it would be "insert" or "queue". |
| 14:28:55 | | Quit erik006 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 14:28:56 | leftright | thats my point, Play Next is not decriptive enough |
| 14:29:07 | Llorean | Process of elimination helps a good deal there. |
| 14:29:23 | leftright | thats user friendly ? |
| 14:29:53 | Llorean | It's no more confusing than a mere "Replace" is. |
| 14:30:08 | leftright | Replace playlist would work too |
| 14:30:18 | Llorean | Now, or when the song ends? |
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| 14:30:40 | leftright | better than Play Next |
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| 14:31:04 | disorganizer | play next as a new playlist :-) |
| 14:31:06 | PaulJam | "replace playlist" sounds to me as if the new playlist would start playing immediately. |
| 14:31:14 | Llorean | PaulJam: That was more or less my point. :) |
| 14:31:33 | Llorean | leftright: "Play Next" leaves a lot less room for doubt, when the rest of the options are included, than "Replace" or "Replace Playlist" |
| 14:31:38 | leftright | play next means play selected next, how is the user supposed to deduce that it means clear current playlist and then play selected next |
| 14:31:52 | * | disorganizer wonders if we really need so many methods of adding songs to a playlist. and how such a basic thing can trigger such a long dispute |
| 14:31:55 | | Quit erik006-2 (Connection timed out) |
| 14:31:58 | Llorean | Because the option wouldn't exist if its behaviour were exactly identical to "Insert Next" |
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| 14:32:38 | leftright | as a user I'm tellojg you what I see, I see play next, that means play selected next, |
| 14:32:51 | Llorean | And that's what it does. |
| 14:33:04 | Llorean | "Play", as in "It becomes what is playing" |
| 14:33:11 | leftright | never mind |
| 14:33:17 | | Quit leftright ("CGI:IRC") |
| 14:33:54 | * | dionoea wonders why people would need the bible on their DAP (see forums). |
| 14:34:05 | GodEater | dionoea: I wondered the same ;) |
| 14:34:18 | GodEater | but then I'm an atheist, so I don't see why anyone would need it at *all* ;) |
| 14:34:26 | dionoea | :D |
| 14:34:41 | Llorean | There's one verse in it, I frequently wish I could remember. |
| 14:34:46 | JdGordon | GodEater: so you have proof there is no god? |
| 14:34:52 | Llorean | But I mean, I suppose it's as useful (or not) as wikipedia or dictionaries. |
| 14:35:27 | GodEater | being an aetheist doesn't require proof |
| 14:35:40 | Llorean | Off-topic, guys. |
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| 14:43:25 | preglow | indeed |
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| 14:48:05 | kugel | linuxstb: Thanks for your answers |
| 14:50:07 | kugel | linuxstb: But I didn't ignore remoetes. I've added comments in settings.h and settings_list.c regarding that. It's a TODO |
| 14:50:18 | preglow | hmm |
| 14:50:28 | preglow | i've got a wavpack case here where sample rate is reported as zero... |
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| 14:56:04 | * | kugel 's getting this again... http://de.pastebin.ca/956699 |
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| 15:00 |
| 15:02:30 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
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| 15:03:21 | amiconn | markun: What was that strange 'xargs' required for? I think it was the cause of all the red... |
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| 15:33:05 | quitte_ | what does IDA mean? |
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| 15:35:57 | JdGordon | Inter Dimensional Animal? |
| 15:36:58 | LinusN | Interactive DisAssembler, i believe |
| 15:37:30 | LinusN | if you mean IDA Pro |
| 15:38:32 | quitte_ | something about a ida database in the forum. probably the assembler,yes |
| 15:38:35 | quitte_ | thanks |
| 15:40:06 | markun | wow, I come back and you guys have already stopped the inactive-playlist discussions! |
| 15:41:46 | disorganizer | markun: no, i think we just paused it. its still the active discussion though :-) |
| 15:42:01 | pondlife | markun: We can resume if you really want |
| 15:42:14 | markun | I knew it :) |
| 15:42:42 | gevaerts | But there have been other discussions in the mean time, so it can't be the current one |
| 15:42:59 | markun | amiconn: http://svn.rockbox.org/viewvc.cgi?view=rev&revision=13415 |
| 15:43:01 | disorganizer | well the other discussion was just a new discussion :-) |
| 15:43:24 | markun | gevaerts: well, maybe it's not currently the discussion but still the current one! |
| 15:43:38 | amiconn | markun: I know that reversal, but what problem did it actually try to solve? |
| 15:44:05 | * | gevaerts thinks of applying a current to participants in that discussion |
| 15:44:15 | markun | amiconn: I had a missing crt0.S in the meizu built which caused make to not create sysfont.h for some reason |
| 15:44:38 | pondlife | gevaerts: Can I have a currant instead? |
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| 15:44:58 | gevaerts | pondlife: no :) |
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| 15:47:28 | amiconn | markun: I am wondering about the xargs thing, not about the meizu port in general |
| 15:47:43 | markun | amiconn: yes, I'm also talking about htat |
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| 15:49:49 | markun | amiconn: but better ask Bagder about it |
| 15:56:17 | Thundercloud | BTW, question, is the FLAC+CUE support in amarok 2 going to be improved when compared to 1.4? |
| 15:57:34 | gevaerts | Thundercloud: maybe you should ask that in an amarok channel |
| 15:58:36 | Thundercloud | gevaerts: Hahahaha whoops |
| 15:58:37 | Thundercloud | Wrong channel :) |
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| 16:00 |
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| 16:04:59 | * | scorche|sh sees he missed a large argument about semantics :( |
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| 16:09:28 | disorganizer | its still the current discussion though |
| 16:09:30 | * | scorche|sh thinks that if one is applying to a project, one should at least read the manual to see that we *do* have a delete function... |
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| 16:10:34 | * | gevaerts leaves replying to scorche|sh this time |
| 16:10:52 | | Quit corevette (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 16:10:55 | scorche|sh | i think i am going to let it be |
| 16:12:00 | gevaerts | Yes. I don't think this application has much chance anyway, however much the text is cleaned up |
| 16:12:41 | * | gevaerts looks around to see if there are any other students who are just about to submit their application |
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| 16:13:53 | scorche|sh | there are a few who have expressed interest, but... |
| 16:14:20 | Massa | Hello everybody! |
| 16:14:27 | | Quit R1ckdu ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)") |
| 16:14:34 | markun | hi Massa |
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| 16:15:21 | Massa | I'm just a bit playing around with viewport usage in WPS - but I've some problems (maybe I don't understand correctly) |
| 16:15:45 | markun | Massa: are you the same Massa from years ago? |
| 16:16:03 | Massa | Yes, I think so - I'm still alive :) |
| 16:16:09 | markun | :) |
| 16:16:42 | Massa | But nowadays I don't have much time for coding, so I just play around as "user" ;) |
| 16:16:51 | R1ckdu | hey everybody, i have a toshiba gigabeat and im interested in running a version of rockbox on it, obviously, there seems to be a solution to this on the rockbox wiki, however i am not pocessing the knowledge to implement rockbox, is there anyone willing to help me? |
| 16:16:51 | Rincewind | gevaerts: you have some advice for me, maybe? |
| 16:17:11 | GodEater | R1ckdu: what sort of gigabeat do you have ? |
| 16:17:39 | Massa | Back to viewports and WPS: do I understand correctly, that I always have to set a foreground and background colour for a viewport? |
| 16:17:54 | | Join RoC_MasterMind [0] (n=Free@c-71-203-172-58.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) |
| 16:18:29 | Massa | Isn't it possible to use a "transparent" colour? |
| 16:18:33 | R1ckdu | gigabeat s, otherwise the solution should have been easier as i understand? |
| 16:18:35 | gevaerts | Rincewind: not really. Just trying to remind you to submit it in time ;) |
| 16:18:44 | | Quit elinenbe (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Leading Edge IRC") |
| 16:18:53 | disorganizer | massa: yes, but the bg-color gets ignored when using a backdrop, afaik. and no, not that i know of. |
| 16:19:08 | LambdaCalculus37 | R1ckdu: There's code in SVN for the Gigabeat S; just don't expect a fully working version soon. |
| 16:19:29 | LambdaCalculus37 | You're free to download the source code and have a little fun with it. |
| 16:19:34 | Rincewind | I hope to be ready to submit friday evening. This would leave the weekend to discuss things and clean it up |
| 16:19:36 | GodEater | R1ckdu: there's little point putting it on the S as yet |
| 16:19:36 | markun | R1ckdu: I think the progress on the Gigabeat S port is a bit halted because nobody is working on enabling USB on it as I understand. |
| 16:19:57 | Massa | I thought, when I use "FF00FF" as background (or foreground colour) that it would be "transparent"... (as in BMPs) |
| 16:20:09 | * | scorche|sh sees gevaerts hide behind the couch |
| 16:20:29 | disorganizer | massa: not that i know off. if yes thats undocumented |
| 16:21:57 | Massa | disorganizer: no, it does not work - but that's what I thought (would be logical for me) |
| 16:22:13 | R1ckdu | Ok. Are there predictions on how long one could expect it to take till there are advancements, as to have full compability? |
| 16:22:22 | LambdaCalculus37 | R1ckdu: Not really. |
| 16:22:32 | LambdaCalculus37 | It depends on when people want to come and finish it off. |
| 16:22:38 | scorche|sh | R1ckdu: we gont give predictions, because then murphy's law would force us to break them |
| 16:22:40 | Massa | disorganizer: so it's not possible to use different background colours in different viewports when using a backdrop? |
| 16:23:09 | LambdaCalculus37 | R1ckdu: If you really want to run Rockbox on a Gigabeat, I suggest hitting eBay and getting a Gigabeat F, which is supported. |
| 16:23:20 | markun | or wait |
| 16:23:29 | LambdaCalculus37 | Or help work on it. |
| 16:23:35 | gevaerts | Rincewind: I would suggest to try and submit your application soon enough, so that you have some time to adapt it to comments. Of course, since I'm pretty new to the project (wasn't around last year), disregarding my opinion is entirely allowed and, if other developers have different opinions, even advisable |
| 16:23:54 | disorganizer | massa: need to check, because now as you say it i think the behaviour changed during commit, but as far as i remember this was true. checking in a few minutes if you want |
| 16:24:55 | GodEater | gevaerts: I think submitting earlier is a good thing too |
| 16:25:05 | Rincewind | gevaerts: I try to submit it as soon as possible, but I have exams at the moment, so I can't use every waking minute to work on it. I discussed things with domonoky a little bit (since he is german, too) |
| 16:25:35 | gevaerts | Rincewind: sure. Just don't submit three minutes before the deadline ;) |
| 16:25:40 | R1ckdu | Well thank you all for the information, it was helpful. (lambdacalculus37: i dont think i could go with that comfortably... my budget is too limited & i do not have any experience with code other than a 2 week basic java introduction, otherwise i'd be more than glad to help) |
| 16:26:03 | Massa | disorganizer: would be nice - where do you check? (I'm no longer familiar with the source code structure nowadays ;) ) |
| 16:26:25 | * | gevaerts would have mixed feelings about candidates who put their gsoc application before their exams |
| 16:26:31 | GodEater | Rincewind: what sort of shape is it in at the moment ? |
| 16:26:35 | LambdaCalculus37 | R1ckdu: You can get a Gigabeat F for less than $100, but if your budget is limited then I can't twist your arm about it. |
| 16:26:56 | Rincewind | GodEater: I have finished the abstract and worked most of the rest out in my head |
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| 16:28:34 | Rincewind | gevaerts: would be bad if the student isn't a student anymore when gsoc is happening, because of failed exams, right? |
| 16:28:49 | GodEater | Rincewind: very much so! |
| 16:29:31 | R1ckdu | LambdaCalculus37: If that were true, how would I then treat the dislodged poor S Series? |
| 16:29:48 | Massa | Something else: Which device can you buy currently which is similar to the Sansa E200 on which Rockbox works? (I know this question has been asked a lot times, but I assume the answers are always changing) |
| 16:30:06 | GodEater | Massa: you can't buy anything new |
| 16:30:12 | GodEater | you have to get 'em from ebay |
| 16:30:44 | disorganizer | massa: as soon as you use a bmp as backdrop of your wps the bg-color is ignored and the bmp will instead be: transparent :-) |
| 16:30:45 | LambdaCalculus37 | R1ckdu: Like you always did. It'll just have a companion. :) |
| 16:30:51 | LambdaCalculus37 | But I digress. |
| 16:30:56 | Massa | GodEater: that's bad :( - I don't like eBay anymore... |
| 16:31:18 | GodEater | http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/boingboing/iBag/~3/259002700/rockbox-open-jukebox.html |
| 16:31:28 | disorganizer | massa: and i checked with the ui emulator. but keep in mind viewports must not overlap. |
| 16:31:49 | Massa | disorganizer: you meant "the bg-color will instead be: transparent" (instead of "bmp...")? |
| 16:32:27 | Massa | disorganizer: how to overlap viewports would have been my next question - so what happens if you overlap them? |
| 16:32:29 | disorganizer | massa: well if you use the %X tag to display a wps backdrop your viewports wont use bg-coloring for the text which is displayed. so the bmp color is shown |
| 16:32:58 | GodEater | Bloody hell - that was quick ;) |
| 16:33:10 | disorganizer | massa: if you overlap them something very bad happens :-) the result is unpredictable and its not supported |
| 16:33:11 | gevaerts | Rincewind: exactly :) |
| 16:34:41 | | Quit R1ckdu ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)") |
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| 16:35:15 | Massa | GodEater: if the link was for me - I'm not a student (it has been more than 15 years ago that I was studying :D) |
| 16:35:30 | GodEater | Massa: it was for the channel in general |
| 16:35:54 | GodEater | I only submitted it to boingboing about an hour ago - I was impressed with how fast they posted it |
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| 16:36:41 | Massa | disorganizer: so how do you write text in one viewport which conditionally overlaps another one (e.g. when no album art is available)? |
| 16:36:42 | R1ckdu | LambdaCalculus37: Well I guess i wont leave here without having tried to get something working on that big old jukebox. Is there a way you could talk/walk me through the patch process? Or would that be too much distraction? |
| 16:37:26 | LambdaCalculus37 | R1ckdu: Clarify "big old jukebox". Are you talking about an Archos MP3 player? |
| 16:37:39 | markun | GodEater: nice replies to that post |
| 16:37:48 | GodEater | markun: I thought so too ;) |
| 16:38:27 | LambdaCalculus37 | GodEater: Especially the reply by zikzak. He sounds like a fan, all right. :) |
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| 16:38:43 | markun | a big contrast to the statement that rockbox is the worst open source project ever |
| 16:39:07 | GodEater | and sounds like a bag of shit |
| 16:39:08 | Massa | GodEater: ahh, I thought because you're talking about iPods and Sansas in your post it would be a request for me to e.g. port rockbox to a newer device :) |
| 16:39:26 | GodEater | Massa: well if you wouldn't mind... ;) |
| 16:39:28 | disorganizer | massa: at the moment thats a problem. hopefully some day we get conditional viewports. also remember that the x/y positions of bmp's are relative to their viewport, not the screen ;-) i dont know for sure whether you can use a conditional inside the viewport for text or AA though. never tested it |
| 16:39:53 | Massa | markun: where did you read that statement? |
| 16:40:02 | R1ckdu | LambdaCalculus37: No. I'm sorry about that I'm actually talking about the gigabeat S , with reference to the wiki post: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/GigabeatSInfo . |
| 16:40:27 | GodEater | the Gigabeat S is not a "big old jukebox" |
| 16:40:40 | markun | Massa: http://www.linux.com/?module=comments&func=display&cid=1185351 |
| 16:40:41 | GodEater | it's bloody tiny in comparison to some! |
| 16:40:52 | GodEater | and it's super light too |
| 16:40:57 | LambdaCalculus37 | R1ckdu: When you say "big old jukebox", that makes us think of the old Archos devices. |
| 16:41:08 | LambdaCalculus37 | R1ckdu: But if you're really serious: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/DevelopmentGuide |
| 16:41:10 | GodEater | R1ckdu: you're aware there's no sound on the S at the moment aren't you ? |
| 16:41:25 | Massa | disorganizer: hmm, I think I continue gambling around with viewports... (e.g. what happens if I put my albumart (with conditional) at the "initial" viewport and the rest in defined ones?) |
| 16:42:46 | * | LambdaCalculus37 has seen a Gigabeat S next to his iPod video... it *is* a little smaller |
| 16:42:56 | R1ckdu | GodEater: Well by today's standarts, where many youngsters get their players every year and complain about their size of an ipod nano, one of that category would certainly call it big and old, but if you ask me it still is a great device and has not let me down too often(apart from formatting randomly sometimes, which everyone using the basic firmware knows about by now) |
| 16:43:00 | Massa | matun: of course this had been posted by "anonymous" - I'm sure it's somebody which never really tried to use rockbox... |
| 16:43:13 | disorganizer | massa: discouraged. you should not use the "initial" viewport. it may be that someday this will be skipped . use viewports for everything. |
| 16:43:33 | disorganizer | need to go home now . see you all later |
| 16:43:34 | markun | Massa: of course he didn't, because rockbox is such a POS that he couldn't even install it :) |
| 16:43:52 | GodEater | LambdaCalculus37: and it's definitely lighter |
| 16:44:06 | markun | Massa: no, I guess I misunderstood "basic setup" |
| 16:44:06 | LambdaCalculus37 | GodEater: Yes, definitely. |
| 16:44:51 | Massa | GodEater: it seems that the cowon D2 would be a nice device - but it's too expensive and currently only partially supported by rockbox |
| 16:45:23 | disorganizer | massa: a last comment: viewportification is easier than it looks. and it will be expanded to be even more usefull some day :-) |
| 16:45:36 | | Quit disorganizer ("CGI:IRC") |
| 16:46:02 | R1ckdu | GodEater: No, I haven't read any of that yet. But that makes the situation a complete different one. To bad I have no ability to work on that. In such, I guess there really is no use in porting rockbox onto my device yet. But I will be checking your site to see if there is any developement. Where does the information about the sound come from by the way? |
| 16:46:15 | Massa | markun: maybe "basic setup" is the installation for him/her? Would explain a lot ;) |
| 16:46:38 | GodEater | R1ckdu: I'm not sure if it's on the wiki or not, let me see |
| 16:47:18 | * | gevaerts might try to start a worse open source project if he finds the time |
| 16:47:22 | GodEater | R1ckdu: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/GigabeatSPort |
| 16:47:28 | GodEater | The Audio progress bit |
| 16:47:31 | GodEater | 50% |
| 16:47:38 | GodEater | i.e., it doesn't do anything functional yet ;) |
| 16:48:06 | LambdaCalculus37 | GodEater: We need the I2C driver still, I see. |
| 16:48:27 | GodEater | LambdaCalculus37: we need quite a bit :) |
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| 16:49:13 | | Join midgey [0] (n=tjross@westquad-188-46.reshall.umich.edu) |
| 16:50:30 | R1ckdu | GodEater: So you mean keeping this as a bookmark would give me a good overview on how things work out in the future? |
| 16:51:15 | LambdaCalculus37 | R1ckdu: You can just bookmark at the front page: http://www.rockbox.org |
| 16:52:10 | pondlife | I like "...recently bought an iPod Classic (the new one) and have to say that it might be a nice piece of eye candy, but compared to a device running Rockbox its simply retarded." |
| 16:54:41 | R1ckdu | LambdaCalculus37: Well that would be a solution too ;-) . Anyways, it was nice to talk to you, GodEater / LambdaCalculus37, wish you a good day and good luck with your codes. Have a good one, bye! |
| 16:56:00 | LambdaCalculus37 | pondlife: Golden Quote? |
| 16:56:10 | pondlife | Silver Quote |
| 16:56:12 | GodEater | R1ckdu: bye :) |
| 16:57:13 | Massa | pondlife: Yes, it's a nice comment - but it would be much better if it could sound like "... recently bought an iPod Classic and directly had to put rockbox on it because of the weird original firmware" ;) |
| 16:57:28 | pondlife | Massa: You know what to do.... |
| 16:58:17 | pondlife | Hmm, my database is acting very odd |
| 16:59:30 | Massa | pondlife: Was just a joke - I don't own any iPod, I still use my iRiver H340... (and my son's Sansa) - as I read, the newer iPod firmware is so good encrypted, that it's nearly impossible to inject rockbox boot code!? |
| 16:59:49 | pondlife | Massa: Mine was a joke too, I ran out of smileys... ;-) |
| 16:59:57 | | Quit R1ckdu ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)") |
| 16:59:58 | pondlife | (found one in the sofa there) |
| 17:00 |
| 17:00:42 | pondlife | If I go into Database > Track and select the 5th one down ("Heroes"), it does the searching countdown from 16xxx to 0, but then plays another track. The generated playlist has blank entries for 1-3, then is a directory-sequenced, not alphabetical. |
| 17:01:01 | pondlife | Time for a reboot |
| 17:01:26 | pondlife | Aha, dircache is rebuilding... |
| 17:01:49 | pondlife | Maybe this is why my playlist viewer has been doing buggy things all day. |
| 17:02:25 | | Part LinusN |
| 17:02:30 | pondlife | Yep, works now I've rebooted |
| 17:02:34 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 17:03:01 | kugel | linuxstb, linuxstb: ping |
| 17:03:05 | kugel | linuxstb, linuxstb_: ping |
| 17:03:15 | pondlife | 3 linuxstbs? |
| 17:03:34 | kugel | No ;) |
| 17:05:43 | markun | can I rename audiohw_set_headphone_vol to audiohw_set_master_vol in tlv320.c? |
| 17:05:49 | * | linuxstb_ appears |
| 17:05:59 | GodEater | in a piff of logic ? |
| 17:06:02 | GodEater | or a puff |
| 17:06:09 | * | GodEater goes to buy a dictionary |
| 17:06:38 | * | linuxstb_ has just come back from a very long lunch, so hopes kugel's questions are easy |
| 17:07:16 | pondlife | GodEater: PIFF = http://www.acronymfinder.com/acronym.aspx?rec={E814163C-01B5-4DBF-B0AB-750DCA1D1BA8} |
| 17:07:18 | * | GodEater likes boingboing's headline for the article ;) |
| 17:07:40 | kugel | linuxstb_: In theory, I like your idea of having a unified viewport_parse function, which both list and wps (and more later) would use. |
| 17:07:45 | GodEater | pondlife: sounds dreadful |
| 17:08:06 | | Quit TMM (Client Quit) |
| 17:08:55 | linuxstb_ | kugel: But only in theory? |
| 17:08:57 | kugel | linuxstb_: But, I'm not sure if it fits my needs for the list. In the list, I we have more than one viewport. I can't simply use the |..|..|..|..| from the settings, and use it for a viewport in the list. |
| 17:09:47 | kugel | s/I // |
| 17:11:50 | linuxstb_ | I thought the list was all contained within one viewport - the parent? |
| 17:12:14 | kugel | linuxstb_: That's true, but in the parent, there are more viewports |
| 17:12:22 | linuxstb_ | Yes... |
| 17:12:46 | kugel | and editting the parent leads to problems (i.e. not updating parts of the screen which show parts of the wps) |
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| 17:14:07 | kugel | linuxstb_: http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/8457#comment21091 |
| 17:14:25 | Massa | kugel, linuxstb_: I don't want to disturb your discussion - but I hope you could easily answer a related question ;) |
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| 17:14:29 | * | scorche|sh looks at boingboing, and then looks at "Bryan" |
| 17:15:00 | kugel | Massa: ask it, quickly :) |
| 17:15:19 | Massa | currently the background colour definition of a viewport will be ignored (=transparent) when using a backdrop. |
| 17:15:28 | linuxstb_ | Massa: Yes. |
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| 17:15:36 | kugel | I though it gets automatically ignorend |
| 17:15:48 | kugel | ah, missread :/ |
| 17:16:17 | GodEater | scorche|sh: read back in community |
| 17:16:24 | Massa | Is this a general limitation to have different background colours or is this just the current implementation? |
| 17:17:10 | | Nick fxb is now known as birthday`fxb (n=felixbru@h1252615.stratoserver.net) |
| 17:17:12 | Massa | Wouldn't it be nicer to allow different background colours for different viewports and to define the FF00FF colour as transparent (as it's done in BMPs)? |
| 17:18:24 | linuxstb_ | If you don't have backdrops, then the background colour works, if you do have a backdrop, make the backdrop contain the colour... |
| 17:19:15 | Massa | linuxstb_: that's how it is currently - but with my suggestion it would be able to have both... |
| 17:19:19 | * | kugel thinks that Massa's idea would be indeed a nice feature, but doesn't know about limitations |
| 17:19:38 | linuxstb_ | Massa: What's the advantage though? |
| 17:20:13 | amiconn | Well, in case of colour targets, it should be possible to implement this idea (in the viewport logic) without slowdown |
| 17:21:02 | scorche|sh | GodEater: ah...i forgot to read the backlog today :) |
| 17:21:16 | amiconn | I can even imagine 2 possible ways to implement this. Either fiddle with drawmodes, or have a flag per viewport that specifies whether the backdrop is used or not |
| 17:21:18 | Massa | linuxstb_: you could have some text (in one viewport) which will be highlighted by a background colour and other which shows the backdrop... |
| 17:21:54 | Massa | amiconn: so there's no limitation for changing the background colour when using backdrops? |
| 17:23:22 | kugel | Massa: I'd wonder if there's a limitation. How would the bar line selectors be possible? :) |
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| 17:24:16 | Massa | kugel: you're right |
| 17:28:16 | kugel | linuxstb_: could we get back to my issue? |
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| 17:28:52 | DGMurdockIII | hi |
| 17:28:54 | DGMurdockIII | is |
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| 17:29:51 | kugel | linuxstb_: The only idea I have is to have an extra vp between the parent and the list vps, which is only there to contain the coustomlist information (and to be a valid target for a viewport_parse function) |
| 17:29:53 | DGMurdockIII | is there anymore progress on the Creative Zen Vision |
| 17:29:57 | Massa | amiconn: I like your first suggestion (drawmodes) more - it allows more flexibility... |
| 17:30:01 | pixelma | is setting foreground/background colours in each backdrop really needed? What if someone could just leave it blank and then the global settings will be used (and a (WPS) backdrop would have priority over the background colour like it is in the menus)? |
| 17:30:05 | scorche|sh | DGMurdockIII: look in the forum thread |
| 17:30:23 | kugel | linuxstb_: or a viewport-like struct |
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| 17:31:53 | kugel | linuxstb_: Another idea would to split the list head and the actual list completely, and allowing the user to set the list head independantely from the list |
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| 17:34:39 | * | kugel awaits an answer eagerly |
| 17:36:21 | * | GodEater thinks linuxstb_ has succumbed to his large lunch and has fallen asleep |
| 17:36:34 | kugel | hehe |
| 17:36:35 | | Nick birthday`fxb is now known as fxb__ (n=felixbru@h1252615.stratoserver.net) |
| 17:36:56 | kugel | other people are welcome to answer too though |
| 17:37:37 | GodEater | I don't even understand the problem.... |
| 17:39:44 | Massa | pixelma: I don't completely understand what you meant. What do you want to say with "in each backdrop"? We were talking about setting the background colour even when a (=one) backdrop is used... |
| 17:40:08 | pixelma | I meant "each viewport"... sorry |
| 17:40:50 | Massa | kugel: I'm currently also unable to understand your problem... |
| 17:41:32 | Massa | pixelma: if you don't have a backdrop, you are already able to set the background colour for each viewport - but with a backdrop it'll be always "transparent2 |
| 17:41:44 | Massa | s/2$/"/g |
| 17:42:28 | | Quit OlivierBorowski_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 17:42:49 | kugel | It's about a function to parse a |..|...|...| structure (i.e. those in %V tags) to a viewport. linuxstb_ had the idea to implement this as a generic function, to be used for wps and lists. But in the list we have more than one viewport, so we cannot directly parse the |...|...|..| to a viewport |
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| 17:45:44 | pixelma | I think I didn't make myself clear. Currently it seems mandatory to define background and foreground colour for each viewport you want to use. I was thinking that it could be nice that - if you don't fill out this definition (so use "%V|x|y|width|height|font|||") this could be translated to "use the global foreground or background colours"... |
| 17:47:26 | pixelma | maybe then leaving the bgshade part blank could mean "use the backdrop" and if you fill it out the background colour would be used |
| 17:49:32 | pixelma | if you don't have any backdrop set, leaving the bgshade part blank could mean "use global background colour" |
| 17:50:19 | pixelma | was just an idea, not very well thought through before speaking (and trying to explain) |
| 17:54:03 | Massa | kugel: you mean store the parse result of the "|...|...|...|" definition (x,y,width,height,font,...) to the viewport? |
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| 17:54:22 | kugel | yea |
| 17:55:03 | Massa | pixelma: this could be an addition to my idea of using the "FF00FF" colour as transparent colour (which would use the global colour when no backdrop is used) |
| 17:56:51 | Massa | kugel: sorry, I still don't get it - doesn't the viewport structure have the x, y, width, ... as members? So what's the problem? |
| 17:57:35 | | Quit DaCapn (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 17:57:40 | kugel | Massa: In lists there's more than 1 viewport. |
| 17:59:54 | Massa | kugel: And? Every viewport still has its dimension and font... :? |
| 18:00 |
| 18:00:20 | * | Massa is currently a bit slow on the uptake |
| 18:01:31 | Massa | About the bg-colour: I just had a look at the sources - and must admit, that my knowledge about the source structure is almost gone :( |
| 18:01:55 | Massa | Where will the wps_data objects be drawn to the screen? |
| 18:02:42 | Nico_P | kugel: I don't understand your problem either. that generic list parsing func is meant for WPS use btw |
| 18:03:11 | kugel | Nico_P: it's not. |
| 18:03:25 | Nico_P | kugel: how do you envision using it? |
| 18:04:26 | kugel | in my customlist patch. I allready implemented a %V-like setting (list viewport: x|y...) |
| 18:05:58 | Nico_P | and...? |
| 18:07:25 | Massa | Nico_P: It's been a while since I looked at the rockbox sources. Can you tell me in which source file the drawing of the wps_data objects to the screen is done? |
| 18:07:39 | Nico_P | Massa: gwps-common.c |
| 18:08:23 | Nico_P | nice to see you back btw :) |
| 18:09:21 | Massa | Nico_P: that's where I'm already in - but I don't find it :( ... I have to dig around a bit :) |
| 18:10:00 | Nico_P | Massa: most of it is done in gui_wps_refresh() |
| 18:10:45 | | Quit gevaerts ("work->home") |
| 18:11:40 | Massa | Nico_P: I was never totally away - just had no time to code. I was still reading from time to time (and always had a look at the commits ;) ) |
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| 18:13:40 | Massa | Nico_P: Wow! The method looks totally different than last time I had a look at it :) |
| 18:13:53 | Rincewind | A quick english question: is it "plugin" or "plug-in", "backend" or "back-end" or "back end"? |
| 18:14:11 | Nico_P | Massa: maybe because of the viewports commit... unless last time you looked at it was before the WPS tokenizer ;) |
| 18:14:41 | | Part DGMurdockIII |
| 18:15:01 | Massa | Nico_P: indeed, it was before the tokenizer ;) |
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| 18:21:14 | Rrage | hey |
| 18:21:15 | Massa | Nico_P: as far as I understand, write_line actually writes the current line to the screen. But where will they get the colour? |
| 18:21:54 | Nico_P | Massa: it's written within the current viewport, so with that vp's fg colour |
| 18:22:24 | Rrage | Does anyone know a good tut for ipod loader? i dont understand the wiki |
| 18:22:35 | | Quit petur ("work->home") |
| 18:23:22 | Massa | Nico_P: where is that done? I don't see it... |
| 18:23:51 | scorche|sh | Rrage: wiki?...you should eb following the manual |
| 18:24:15 | Rrage | the ipod loader 2 |
| 18:24:15 | LambdaCalculus37 | Rrage: You can use Rockbox Utility: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/RockboxUtility |
| 18:24:28 | LambdaCalculus37 | Rrage: Ask the iPodLinux guys, not us. |
| 18:24:39 | Nico_P | Massa: setting the current viewport is probably done when encountering a vp tag (I'm not familiar with that code), and then all viewport drawing is handled at the lcd driver level |
| 18:25:10 | | Quit Rrage (Client Quit) |
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| 18:41:00 | Massa | Nico_P: I'm just searching for the place where background colour of the viewport is used (without backdrop) or ignored (with backdrop) - but I don't find where the colours are used... |
| 18:41:02 | pondlife | Rincewind: I'd go for plugin and back-end |
| 18:41:13 | pondlife | Inconsistent, I know... :) |
| 18:41:17 | Nico_P | Massa: that'd be in the lcd drivers code |
| 18:41:28 | pondlife | plug-in would be perhaps better, but we always use plugin |
| 18:41:43 | pondlife | aka ploojin |
| 18:41:52 | | Quit ChuckMcKnight (Client Quit) |
| 18:41:54 | Nico_P | Massa: but linuxstb_ / linuxstb is the person to ask in this case |
| 18:42:28 | Rincewind | pondlife, yes, ispell would like plug-in, too. |
| 18:43:29 | Rincewind | but I think I better use plugin to be consistent with rockbox style |
| 18:43:39 | | Join ColinT [0] (n=realizat@69-11-97-130.regn.static.sasknet.sk.ca) |
| 18:44:02 | Nico_P | pondlife: I'm currently implementing an FSM approach for the "buffering" in playback.c |
| 18:44:22 | * | pondlife likes FSMs |
| 18:44:43 | pondlife | What states do we need? |
| 18:45:00 | pondlife | Not many, I'd hope |
| 18:45:29 | * | Rincewind doesn't like FSMs very much but has to use them in vhdl all the time |
| 18:45:36 | | Join domonoky [0] (n=Domonoky@rockbox/developer/domonoky) |
| 18:45:41 | | Join gevaerts [0] (n=fg@195-144-092-144.dyn.adsl.xs4all.be) |
| 18:45:58 | Nico_P | pondlife: I have 5 right now (idle, waiting, filling, full, finished) |
| 18:46:09 | pondlife | finished != idle? |
| 18:46:12 | Nico_P | some of them might overlap thoough |
| 18:46:27 | Nico_P | finished is when we've reached the end of the playlist |
| 18:46:41 | pondlife | Ah, ok. |
| 18:47:31 | R1ckdu | Lambda Calculus37 : Hey, maybe you remember me from about an hour ago. I just really got myself into trouble with my gigabeat S, my firmware crashed and i cannot reload it(not even with the tool that is supplied on the page on your wiki[ the page concerning gigabeatsinfo]). The tool connects, the player reacts and then the util, says there has been no connection. What can this be? |
| 18:48:54 | | Part linuxstb_ ("Leaving") |
| 18:49:21 | Nico_P | R1ckdu: what OS are you using? |
| 18:49:23 | Massa | Nico_P: thanks - I think I found it... |
| 18:51:02 | * | Nico_P asks for an authorization to use goto |
| 18:51:26 | Nico_P | it's for a sane purpose: avoid code duplication for a return case |
| 18:52:01 | R1ckdu | I am using Vista. |
| 18:52:11 | * | gevaerts hands Nico_P a ticket saying "Allow one goto" |
| 18:52:39 | | Join MethoS [0] (n=clemens@host-091-096-214-100.ewe-ip-backbone.de) |
| 18:53:29 | Nico_P | gevaerts: thanks :) |
| 18:58:08 | | Quit R1ckdu ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)") |
| 19:00 |
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| 19:02:38 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
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| 19:17:01 | toffe82 | high intensity light |
| 19:17:03 | toffe82 | sorry :) |
| 19:17:37 | toffe82 | #rockbox is not google yet :) |
| 19:17:38 | amiconn | Nico_P: Imho goto is okay when used sparsely, and reasonably. |
| 19:17:47 | EskimoSpy | Is it possible in Rockbox to choose music by database, then by genre....then by album title from there, rather than just being shown artists? |
| 19:18:28 | EskimoSpy | Doesn't make much sense as it is for people who tend to have more full albums than hand-picked songs here and there from various albums |
| 19:19:00 | Nico_P | amiconn: that's what I think too. I'm pretty sure it's acceptable the way I used it (and the patch will be up for review) |
| 19:19:02 | | Join MethoS- [0] (n=clemens@91.97.240.15) |
| 19:19:02 | gevaerts | EskimoSpy: it is possible. I believe it's described somewhere in the manual or on the wiki, but I have never done it |
| 19:19:33 | | Part pondlife |
| 19:20:01 | EskimoSpy | neato, I'll have to look around I guess |
| 19:20:11 | EskimoSpy | I'll probably be back here soon though |
| 19:20:12 | amiconn | Nico_P: Check e.g. ata_mmc.c. That one also has a few gotos, to avoid having write the same code over and over for error returns |
| 19:20:30 | Nico_P | that's exactly how I plan to use it |
| 19:20:38 | Nico_P | how I am using it actually |
| 19:22:38 | amiconn | JdGordon: I was now able to test the button bar fix on target a bit. It's nice to have the lists back to normal, but there's a minor nitpick: The list position in the browser doesn't adjust to the new list height until you move the cursor. Also affects the scroll bar |
| 19:22:55 | | Join alazar [0] (n=bobk@454a29fc.cst.lightpath.net) |
| 19:24:12 | EskimoSpy | Well, it's not in the manual and there's no sane way of browsing the wiki. Anybody know how to choose music via Database, then sort by genre, and THEN sort by album rather than artist? |
| 19:25:07 | bluebrother | EskimoSpy: you need to adjust your tagnavi.config. The wiki tells you how ... |
| 19:25:14 | bluebrother | (try the search box ;-) |
| 19:25:43 | | Quit Thundercloud (Remote closed the connection) |
| 19:25:52 | EskimoSpy | Ah, okay |
| 19:25:59 | bluebrother | for your convenience: http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/DataBase |
| 19:26:01 | EskimoSpy | I told you I'd be back here for more info |
| 19:26:05 | Nico_P | to anyone interested, here is my preliminary work: http://pastebin.ca/959808 |
| 19:26:10 | EskimoSpy | thanks |
| 19:26:24 | Nico_P | It seems to work nicely on the sim. Now I'm off to do some shopping. |
| 19:27:48 | EskimoSpy | get me some pizza rolls |
| 19:30:06 | | Quit PaulJam (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) |
| 19:30:19 | | Quit erik006 (Connection timed out) |
| 19:30:40 | alazar | so, can I just delete the whole doom directory without some kind of bad effect? Or is there more to removal of a package? |
| 19:30:52 | EskimoSpy | bluebrother, about tagnavi....wiki says to edit "the" tagnavi_custom.config....should this exist already, or should it be created as a copy of tagnavi.config, or should it be created as a new, empty file? |
| 19:31:21 | bluebrother | hmm, some buttons are missing for recording from the manual. That's the reason why it doesn't build |
| 19:31:52 | bluebrother | EskimoSpy: tagnavi.config will include that file if it's present. You could also edit tagnavi.config directly −− but that will get overwritten if you update Rockbox |
| 19:32:04 | BigBambi | alazar: Delete it as you wish |
| 19:32:18 | alazar | very nice, thank you |
| 19:32:25 | bluebrother | I haven't played around with that at all but I think you should just create that file. |
| 19:32:52 | | Quit MethoS (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 19:35:05 | EskimoSpy | hmm, alright |
| 19:35:17 | | Part alazar |
| 19:35:24 | EskimoSpy | I was wondering about it including it though....which file's contents take precedence over the other? |
| 19:35:27 | EskimoSpy | anybody? |
| 19:36:03 | bluebrother | I think it's added as a new submenu |
| 19:37:40 | EskimoSpy | hmmmmmmmmmm |
| 19:37:48 | EskimoSpy | I'll watch for that, then...thanks cap'n |
| 19:38:26 | preglow | anyone here tried to compile the mikmod patch for coldfire? |
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| 19:39:28 | | Nick fxb__ is now known as birthday`fxb (n=felixbru@h1252615.stratoserver.net) |
| 19:39:55 | LambdaCalculus37 | preglow: Which patch is that? |
| 19:40:02 | preglow | 8806 |
| 19:41:14 | | Nick birthday`fxb is now known as fxb (n=felixbru@h1252615.stratoserver.net) |
| 19:41:33 | EskimoSpy | I want a damn mikmod patch :P |
| 19:42:17 | LambdaCalculus37 | preglow: Nope, haven't seen it till now. I used FS #8680 on my iPods. |
| 19:42:26 | LambdaCalculus37 | Why, is it giving you trouble? |
| 19:42:59 | preglow | yes |
| 19:43:06 | preglow | gcc pukes all over the place |
| 19:43:15 | DerPapst | ewww |
| 19:43:43 | DerPapst | did the not licences |
| 19:44:03 | * | DerPapst curses his return button |
| 19:44:19 | DerPapst | did the non-licence free patch work? |
| 19:44:49 | LambdaCalculus37 | DerPapst: Yes, it works wonderfully. |
| 19:45:20 | DerPapst | i mean for coldfire |
| 19:45:26 | preglow | yes, that patch should probably be commited |
| 19:45:26 | DerPapst | ;-) |
| 19:45:38 | preglow | i haven't got too many .mod, thugh, mostly s3m, it and xm |
| 19:46:08 | pixelma | it doesn't work completely "wonderfully" for me, it has a few more minor problems than the one before (but one big plus) |
| 19:46:17 | LambdaCalculus37 | I've got a lot of .S3M, .IT, and .XM files I'd like to listen to as well. |
| 19:46:27 | LambdaCalculus37 | pixelma: Which DAP did you try it on? |
| 19:46:29 | preglow | pixelma: what doesn't work? |
| 19:46:38 | | Join MethoS-- [0] (n=clemens@91.97.241.121) |
| 19:46:45 | * | DerPapst has mikmodule and hides :-P |
| 19:46:51 | * | amiconn got a few freezes with the old mod patch as well |
| 19:47:12 | LambdaCalculus37 | amiconn: You mean FS #2634? |
| 19:47:14 | | Join PaulJam [0] (n=PaulJam_@p54BCDBBA.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 19:47:42 | * | LambdaCalculus37 has not had any issues playing MOD files on his iPods |
| 19:48:18 | pixelma | tried it on my c200. I got one file that was just skipped by the old patch and the new one tries to play it what either causes "undefined instructions" at varying addresses or just sounds _completely_ wrong |
| 19:48:40 | | Quit [omni] (Remote closed the connection) |
| 19:49:07 | EskimoSpy | hrm.. |
| 19:49:10 | amiconn | LambdaCalculus37: No, that's the feature request. The patch I am (still) using is fs #5241 |
| 19:49:40 | LambdaCalculus37 | amiconn: Oops, my mistake. :) |
| 19:49:51 | | Join EspeonEefi [0] (i=espeonee@STRATTON-FIVE-FOURTY-TWO.MIT.EDU) |
| 19:50:15 | amiconn | Some mods sound wrong with it, it skips some mods which should be small enough for its limit, and it causes occasional freezes |
| 19:50:17 | pixelma | what bothers me most is that the new one plays (I think) all files at least two times if not infinitely (wasn't patient enough to wait) |
| 19:50:21 | | Join GodEater_ [50] (n=bryan@rockbox/staff/GodEater) |
| 19:50:21 | EskimoSpy | bluebrother, thanks a ton for the tagnavi tip, exactly what I was looking for and works fine now |
| 19:50:31 | bluebrother | EskimoSpy: you're welcome |
| 19:50:55 | pixelma | the old one did this with some of my files. |
| 19:51:17 | * | LambdaCalculus37 hasn't used the older patch, so he can't comment on it |
| 19:51:28 | * | pixelma should just remember (to comment on in) the tracker |
| 19:51:52 | * | DerPapst wonders why no one tried to port libmikmod which uses LGPL and performes very well on iPods. |
| 19:52:14 | * | GodEater_ 's C240 has turned up, and is also a V1 |
| 19:52:41 | LambdaCalculus37 | GodEater_: You know what to do now. :) |
| 19:53:18 | LambdaCalculus37 | DerPapst: It's a mystery of life which no one will understand. ;) |
| 19:53:23 | DerPapst | try to brick it and ask gevaerts to help fixing it? |
| 19:53:39 | GodEater_ | DerPapst: roger that, I'll get right on it ;) |
| 19:54:26 | preglow | ugh |
| 19:54:28 | pixelma | the old mod patch showed "current pattern/all patterns" in the place of "current playing time/track time". The new one shows "current pattern/2:00" |
| 19:54:40 | preglow | the mikmod plugin seems to not use interpolation |
| 19:56:40 | LambdaCalculus37 | pixelma: I think we should leave a comment regarding that in the tracker. |
| 19:56:55 | pixelma | yes |
| 19:57:30 | pixelma | I always tend to forget the tracker though... ;\ |
| 19:57:33 | * | bluebrother has manuals building again |
| 19:58:04 | bluebrother | there are buttons missing for Ipods and H10, namely Pause, Exit and Menu for the recording screen. |
| 19:58:28 | bluebrother | does someone know those buttons so I can add them while I'm at it? |
| 19:58:51 | * | amiconn would prefer if the mod codec would display the true times |
| 19:59:15 | * | GodEater_ appears to own a Rockbox'd C240 :) |
| 19:59:42 | LambdaCalculus37 | GodEater: How many players does that make your collection now? |
| 20:00 |
| 20:00:13 | amiconn | Using the pattern as the "time" isn't nice. It leads to wrong playtimes in the db, and it also confuses "caption backlight" |
| 20:00:24 | GodEater_ | LambdaCalculus37: 5 now |
| 20:00:32 | amiconn | GodEater: all different ones? |
| 20:00:37 | GodEater_ | amiconn: yep |
| 20:01:02 | * | GodEater_ will now go on a hunt for a cheapish sdhc card |
| 20:01:05 | amiconn | Well, still some to go ;) |
| 20:02:09 | * | DerPapst owns "only" 4 rockboxed, 3 different types. |
| 20:02:37 | GodEater_ | amiconn: to get a complete collection ? Heh - yeah, *lots* to go |
| 20:02:54 | * | amiconn wonders whether someone has more different targets than he has |
| 20:03:12 | | Join Chronon [0] (i=vircuser@d23-104.uoregon.edu) |
| 20:03:12 | GodEater_ | Llorean has quite a few doesn't he ? |
| 20:03:22 | preglow | mikmod plugin doesn't seem to work too stellar in the sim either |
| 20:03:25 | preglow | seems to collide with native headers |
| 20:03:41 | amiconn | Linus probably has more targets than me, but not that many different ones |
| 20:03:45 | | Quit MethoS- (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) |
| 20:04:18 | * | amiconn has 12 rockbox targets, all different |
| 20:04:36 | | Quit DerPapst (Nick collision from services.) |
| 20:04:40 | * | amiconn must be crazy ;) |
| 20:04:46 | | Join DerPapst [0] (n=DerPapst@p5B23D336.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 20:05:34 | DerPapst | o.O |
| 20:05:39 | DerPapst | neat... |
| 20:06:01 | pixelma | bluebrother: almost got a m:robe100.svg ready (just needs the text) :) |
| 20:06:18 | amiconn | Plus 2 broken Ondios, and an iPod 2nd Gen that lacks a HDD but would be working otherwise |
| 20:06:47 | | Quit MethoS-- (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 20:07:28 | domonoky | amiconn: how many left till full rockbox ownage ? :-) |
| 20:07:28 | bluebrother | pixelma: nice :) |
| 20:08:00 | * | bluebrother feels bad with only 3 targets :( |
| 20:08:27 | * | domonoky also only has 3 ... goes looking at ebay :-) |
| 20:08:31 | * | pixelma also has only three (but a nice exotic variety) |
| 20:08:39 | amiconn | 13 or so (to get essential coverage, i.e. leaving out variants with really tiny differences) |
| 20:08:44 | DerPapst | domonoky: according to the current build page still a lot ;-) |
| 20:09:11 | amiconn | Those variants are H100 vs. H1x0 (x >= 2), and FM Recorder vs. Recorder v2 |
| 20:09:20 | domonoky | amiconn: so your are halfway through :-) |
| 20:09:36 | amiconn | Oh, I was only counting the supported ones |
| 20:09:47 | | Join gregzx [0] (n=chatzill@dqu196.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) |
| 20:10:21 | * | LambdaCalculus37 has 4 targets |
| 20:10:48 | * | amiconn has an even architecture distribution (4x SH1, 4x coldfire, 4x arm), but a rather uneven lcd type distribution (9 b/w or mono vs. 3 colour) |
| 20:13:39 | amiconn | s/mono/greyscale/ |
| 20:13:49 | Rincewind | oh my god, at first I thought that I would never write enough in my gsoc proposal to reach the character limit and now I am half way done and used 4000 chars already :( |
| 20:13:59 | * | domonoky just bought an m:robe100 on ebay, and still no player with color display.. but then i have all archs (1 sh, 1 coldfire, 1 arm) :-) |
| 20:14:04 | DerPapst | hehe |
| 20:14:37 | | Join mikus [0] (n=5316bf7c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-5e5acc2deda81492) |
| 20:14:40 | * | LambdaCalculus37 has a bad distribution of archs... 3 PP and 1 SH |
| 20:16:06 | * | Rincewind has only two players and people call him crazy already |
| 20:16:12 | * | GodEater_ has included his gigabeat S in his count |
| 20:16:24 | pixelma | my 3 targets are all nice differently (all archs, all display "types") |
| 20:16:53 | Horscht | Ok, as of recently, I am experiencing "track repeats". sometimes, after a song has finished, it plays a second time. |
| 20:17:24 | Horscht | unfortunately, I was not able to reproduce it controlled |
| 20:17:44 | Horscht | or find out what causes it, it just happens |
| 20:17:51 | pixelma | Horscht: me too, it's known (at least pondlife is aware of it, I think Nico_P too) |
| 20:17:52 | GodEater_ | buffering badness |
| 20:18:16 | LambdaCalculus37 | Horscht: What SVN revision? |
| 20:18:19 | Horscht | ah, ok. thanks pixelma |
| 20:18:41 | Horscht | the rev I am using is 6 days old |
| 20:18:54 | Horscht | right now my Ipod is charging, so I can't tell the exact rev |
| 20:18:59 | pixelma | naughty... ;) |
| 20:19:02 | | Join piga [0] (n=leonardo@143.106.24.194) |
| 20:19:10 | scorche|sh | pixelma: all display types?...excluding charcell, i assume... |
| 20:19:45 | pixelma | scorche|sh: ok, you're right |
| 20:20:17 | | Quit piga (Client Quit) |
| 20:20:21 | Horscht | rev 16784 |
| 20:20:45 | Horscht | 3 days old |
| 20:21:02 | LambdaCalculus37 | Naughty... :P |
| 20:21:11 | Horscht | why is that naughty? |
| 20:21:23 | Horscht | just because I am not using the very latest rev? |
| 20:21:32 | GodEater_ | Horscht: Thou shalt always report bugs on the latest revision |
| 20:21:37 | GodEater_ | :D |
| 20:21:42 | DerPapst | you're not allowed to be more then 10 revisions behind. |
| 20:22:13 | LambdaCalculus37 | Horscht: Now go to your room, and think about how you offended the Swedes. :P |
| 20:22:20 | * | amiconn has been imprecise regarding display types as well ;) 1x charcell, 3x mono, 5x greyscale, 3x colour |
| 20:22:39 | Horscht | LambdaCalculus37, who cares about the swedes, this channel is about me :p |
| 20:22:46 | GodEater_ | it's all about me! |
| 20:23:03 | Horscht | my right fist says something different! |
| 20:23:10 | * | DerPapst hides |
| 20:23:25 | * | LambdaCalculus37 considers having the topic changed to #rockbox-casa-de-godeater |
| 20:23:38 | * | gevaerts only has four players |
| 20:23:45 | * | Horscht only has one |
| 20:24:03 | | Join petur [50] (n=petur@rockbox/developer/petur) |
| 20:24:13 | Horscht | but only because you lazy punks haven't ported rockbox to my very useless Thomson Lyra :p |
| 20:24:34 | gevaerts | Horscht: you know who does the work on new ports ;) |
| 20:24:42 | Horscht | Jesus? |
| 20:24:44 | * | GodEater_ yawns to show how lazy he is |
| 20:25:48 | * | Horscht does absolutely nothing |
| 20:26:18 | * | gevaerts accuses Horscht of typing |
| 20:26:28 | amiconn | Horscht: Then port it! |
| 20:26:37 | * | amiconn did that for half of his targets |
| 20:27:01 | Horscht | i ported it, but then a code monster eated it |
| 20:27:07 | * | markun hopefully soon for 2/3 of his targets :) |
| 20:27:21 | * | gevaerts thinks that amiconn cheats. It's easy to have lots of rockbox players if you just buy random players and then do the port ! |
| 20:27:29 | markun | Horscht: what hardware is inside? |
| 20:27:42 | * | BigBambi does the V1 dance |
| 20:27:51 | Horscht | SD Readerr :p |
| 20:27:59 | markun | Horscht: I mean things like the CPU |
| 20:28:01 | | Join framo [0] (n=framo@bb-87-80-66-156.ukonline.co.uk) |
| 20:28:04 | bluebrother | pixelma: do you know any of the missing buttons in http://www.pastebin.ca/959903 ? |
| 20:28:07 | Horscht | markun, to make it clear, I was joking |
| 20:28:08 | BigBambi | I also join the 5 targets clubs (counting the beast) |
| 20:28:25 | * | bluebrother still wants to get a gigabeat |
| 20:28:39 | * | LambdaCalculus37 will be joining the 5 targets club when he geats a Gigabeast |
| 20:28:48 | BigBambi | bluebrother: gigabeat or gigabeast? :) |
| 20:28:51 | Horscht | I don't want, expect, or need a rockbox port to my thomson lyra. That's my old player that was abandoned in favour of a rockboxable Ipod |
| 20:29:07 | Horscht | it only has a whimsy 256MB + an SD slot |
| 20:29:20 | pixelma | bluebrother: I could only look it up in the keymap files myself |
| 20:30:13 | bluebrother | too bad :/ |
| 20:38:22 | markun | shouldn't the bootloaders also use the lds files in the target tree? |
| 20:39:54 | amiconn | The bootloaders often need to be linked differently |
| 20:39:54 | | Quit mikus ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") |
| 20:40:11 | | Quit kushal_12_27_200 (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) |
| 20:40:19 | markun | amiconn: I know, but neither do they need to be linked the same as the other targets |
| 20:40:38 | markun | now it's all in 1 big boot.lds file |
| 20:41:12 | | Join jborn_ [0] (n=jborn@dsl017-022-247.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 20:41:30 | | Nick jborn_ is now known as JoeyBorn (n=jborn@dsl017-022-247.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net) |
| 20:41:31 | amiconn | Yes, that could be split out into individual linker files in the target tree |
| 20:42:03 | | Join Arathis2 [0] (n=doerk@p508A5F86.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 20:42:15 | amiconn | But either they need to stay separate files, or the target specific linker script needs to be sprinkled with #ifdef BOOTLOADER |
| 20:44:06 | | Quit rasher (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 20:44:52 | * | DerPapst wonders.... Would something like an awesome battleship plugin with AI (different strenghes), changeable fieldsize, highscore and built-in help using own graphics on various bitmap targets be accepted as GSoC project for someone not being leet enough to mess with the core? |
| 20:45:26 | * | GodEater_ doesn't see why not |
| 20:45:50 | * | DerPapst thinks about applying... |
| 20:46:08 | * | GodEater_ wasn't aware DerPapst was still in college |
| 20:46:30 | DerPapst | ;-) |
| 20:47:00 | gevaerts | DerPapst: think about it this way : the worst that can happen is that it doesn't get accepted |
| 20:47:03 | GodEater_ | well it sounds like a better application than the one we have already |
| 20:47:12 | | Join rasher [50] (n=rasher@rockbox/developer/rasher) |
| 20:48:04 | Rincewind | DerPapst: if it isn't enough work you can think about a games collection. A Mastermind clone would be nice, too. |
| 20:48:25 | DerPapst | though i would have start coding before May 26 then make my exams and continue after them. |
| 20:48:38 | Rincewind | DerPapst: same here |
| 20:48:48 | DerPapst | mastermind is nice too. |
| 20:48:52 | | Quit GodEater_ ("fooooooooooooooood") |
| 20:49:09 | DerPapst | i could do that after finishing battleship ;-) |
| 20:50:18 | Rincewind | I read a blog post about a mastermind ai that can solve every game in astonishingly few steps (don't remember how few) |
| 20:50:38 | * | DerPapst has to read a bit more about how gsoc works... the rules and stuff. |
| 20:51:39 | scorche|sh | argh...i almost typed !faq for that =/ |
| 20:51:45 | * | bluebrother thinks about closing FS #8773 |
| 20:52:15 | * | DerPapst is reading the faqs already :-P |
| 20:52:46 | Rincewind | scorche|sh: are you some kind of über-mentor for gsoc, or just a regular at #gsoc? |
| 20:53:44 | scorche|sh | Rincewind: eh...i guess you could say i am just helpful and a trusted friend... |
| 20:54:10 | Nico_P | there is an algorithm to solve mastermind quickly |
| 20:54:21 | bluebrother | hmm ... can anyone tell me which button leaves the recording screen on Ipods? |
| 20:54:38 | * | DerPapst tries... |
| 20:54:40 | DerPapst | wait a sec |
| 20:54:52 | Nico_P | it can ben solved in less than 5 guesses |
| 20:55:11 | | Quit LambdaCalculus37 ("CGI:IRC 0.5.9 (2006/06/06)") |
| 20:55:25 | scorche|sh | Rincewind: actually, why did you say that?...i dont even see you in there.. |
| 20:55:26 | kugel | linuxstb: I have a problem with the vp parse function |
| 20:55:51 | Rincewind | I was in there a few times |
| 20:55:54 | kugel | linuxstb: it works when I call them in the lists, but not from wps_parser |
| 20:55:54 | scorche|sh | ah |
| 20:56:16 | Rincewind | #gsoc isn't in may auto-join list yet |
| 20:56:23 | Nico_P | kugel: got some code to showN |
| 20:56:25 | Nico_P | ? |
| 20:56:54 | DerPapst | bluebrother: menu leaves the recording screen on my 5.5G |
| 20:57:17 | Rincewind | scorche|sh: and I got !faq-ed there :) |
| 20:57:31 | bluebrother | DerPapst: hmm, and what button invokes the recording menu? |
| 20:57:54 | | Join disorganizer [0] (n=artemis@p5B11D0A0.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 20:58:05 | amiconn | I think we should apply the modified target tree scheme for arm targets to those not using it yet (i.e. shuffle around and rename a bunch of files) |
| 20:58:14 | bluebrother | I had the impression Menu did that |
| 20:58:25 | amiconn | This will ease a number of things, and help to avoid unnecessary code duplication |
| 20:58:26 | DerPapst | i can't fire a menu up. |
| 20:58:46 | | Quit Arathis (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 20:58:54 | DerPapst | no long-presses or button combinations. |
| 20:59:22 | kugel | Nico_P: I hope the diff pleases you http://pastebin.ca/959954 |
| 20:59:35 | amiconn | The modified scheme is arm/<sub-architecture>/<manufacturer_or_brand>-<model> instead of arm/<manufacturer_or_brand>/<model> |
| 20:59:44 | kugel | That's the complete current customlist patch |
| 21:00 |
| 21:00:37 | amiconn | Gigabeats, iFP, logixdax, cowon d2 and m:robe 500 already use that scheme |
| 21:00:49 | disorganizer | kugel: you said the vp-list needs more than 1 vp. how many? not that i run into the 15 vp limit some day :-) |
| 21:01:05 | amiconn | It's mostly the PP targets that need cleaup |
| 21:01:12 | bluebrother | DerPapst: what does the select button? |
| 21:01:19 | Nico_P | kugel: and so what is it that isn't working? |
| 21:01:29 | kugel | disorganizer: several, though I added only 2 |
| 21:01:40 | DerPapst | scorche|sh: btw i was reading the gsoc faqs before you wanted to do the !faq thingy :-P |
| 21:01:50 | scorche|sh | DerPapst: good man :) |
| 21:01:52 | kugel | Nico_P: viewport_parse_viewport when called from wps_parser.c |
| 21:02:03 | DerPapst | bluebrother: nothing. |
| 21:02:13 | disorganizer | kugel: so we propably need to "raise the limit" so we dont run into the max-vp problem. |
| 21:02:14 | bluebrother | interesting. |
| 21:02:23 | kugel | disorganizer: maybe |
| 21:02:39 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 21:03:26 | disorganizer | kugel: almost definitely. my wps=13 + 2 = 15 :-) + possible statubar vp ..... :-( what happens if we run into the limit? in the old pre-commit version of the wps-vp patch it crashed. |
| 21:04:05 | * | bluebrother will leave a few fixmes then |
| 21:04:12 | kugel | disorganizer: the list w/o my patch allready uses 6 or 7 vp |
| 21:04:51 | kugel | disorganizer: I also the think the MAX_VIEWPORT thing only applies for the wps |
| 21:05:21 | * | DerPapst notices the gsoc faqs have some typos... |
| 21:05:36 | kugel | Nico_P: Any ideas? |
| 21:06:14 | Nico_P | kugel: reading |
| 21:06:17 | disorganizer | linuxstb: does MAX_VIEWPORT apply only to the wps or is this a limit for all vp at any time? |
| 21:06:26 | kugel | Sorry for impatience |
| 21:06:28 | gevaerts | DerPapst: mention them on #gsoc ? |
| 21:07:09 | disorganizer | kugel: are the wps-vp's deleted / erased from memory when the list comes up? |
| 21:07:40 | DerPapst | i'm unsure... maybe they're intended... |
| 21:08:06 | scorche|sh | they make sure you are paying attention! ;) |
| 21:08:14 | gevaerts | Still, mentioning faq typos shows them that you really are reading them |
| 21:08:40 | kugel | disorganizer: I'm not totally sure, but I think the wps is only initialized once, so no |
| 21:09:03 | | Nick Massa_ is now known as Massa (n=chatzill@213602.static-p6.dus.net) |
| 21:09:14 | * | disorganizer obviously does not understand how the viewport system works |
| 21:09:17 | DerPapst | e.g. "We'll be funding a few more more student projects in 2008." more more? inteded or not... that is the question ;-) |
| 21:09:19 | Massa | Now I'm back again :) |
| 21:09:57 | gevaerts | DerPapst: that looks like a clear error to me |
| 21:10:13 | Rincewind | it's nice that the faq has errors, then my proposal can have errrors, too ;) |
| 21:10:32 | scorche|sh | gevaerts: well, the people you want to impress are the org mentors...not google =P |
| 21:10:35 | Massa | DerPapst: I also know some more student projects: "bringing jpeg code to core?" or "calling plugins from WPS" ;) |
| 21:11:14 | disorganizer | kugel: wouldnt it make sense to remove the wps vp-structs from memory if they are not needed? |
| 21:11:45 | kugel | disorganizer: would it make sense to recalculate the whole wps everytime it's entered? |
| 21:12:15 | Massa | amiconn: now I have an almost working version of the viewport colouring. But I've two small problems. |
| 21:12:51 | * | gevaerts warns Rincewind that we will go over the application with a battery of spell checkers, grammar references and dictionaries |
| 21:13:19 | DerPapst | o.O |
| 21:13:20 | Massa | First problem is that I have to define a separate "initial" viewport with whole screen resolution and background "colour" FF00FF |
| 21:13:38 | * | DerPapst thinks about not applying anymore. |
| 21:13:47 | | Join DerDome [0] (n=DerDome@dslb-082-083-235-043.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 21:13:57 | gevaerts | DerPapst: I put "application" in singular ;) |
| 21:14:07 | bluebrother | DerPapst: just because of the spell checkers? |
| 21:14:14 | kugel | Massa: there's allready a initial viewport in the wps |
| 21:14:27 | kugel | Massa: can't you edit this one? |
| 21:14:40 | Massa | If I don't define it, the backdrop is not visible in most part of the screen. |
| 21:14:41 | kugel | DerPapst: What's your project? |
| 21:14:55 | * | Rincewind has to do a special application for gevaerts spell checker then, and his normal one |
| 21:15:08 | DerPapst | none yet. but i'm thinking of a battleship plugin. |
| 21:15:39 | DerPapst | with ai n stuff. |
| 21:15:45 | Massa | kugel: No, no. I just changed some small behaviour which we discussed earlier this day: it's how the background colour definition is handled for viewports. |
| 21:15:47 | | Join piga [0] (n=leonardo@143.106.24.194) |
| 21:16:20 | kugel | Massa: I know I know. That's why I asked if you can't give the allready existing initial viewport FF00FF as bg color |
| 21:16:22 | * | gevaerts wonders if Rincewind heard any news recently from Lavaeolus |
| 21:16:24 | | Join shnee [0] (n=CurtyD13@cpe-75-187-62-136.columbus.res.rr.com) |
| 21:17:20 | Nico_P | kugel: are you sure you're giving it a pointer to the correct location? I'd set a breakpoint on viewport_parse_viewport and see what it's getting |
| 21:18:34 | * | disorganizer thinks if we dont minimize vp-overhead we will get slapped with the memory waster price of the year |
| 21:18:37 | Massa | kugel: what do you mean? Currently the bg-colour will be ignored and is always transparent if using a backdrop. With my changes, it'll also work when using a backdrop. If you want to be transparent, you've to define the bg-colour "FF00FF" (as it's currently in BMPs) |
| 21:18:42 | kugel | Nico_P: What's a breakpoint? :) Anyway, I'm doing exactly the same as in list.c (giving a viewport *vp and a *ptr as arguments |
| 21:19:35 | | Join Soap [50] (n=Soap@rockbox/staff/soap) |
| 21:19:42 | kugel | Massa: You talked about adding a initial vp with bg color FF00FF. I thought you could assign FF00FF to the EXISTING (there's an initial viewport atm) initial viewport |
| 21:19:49 | Nico_P | kugel: you should start learning how to use gdb :) |
| 21:20:00 | amiconn | kugel: Setting the initial viewport to 0xff00ff wouldn't be wise. Imagine how it would look without a backdrop... |
| 21:20:08 | Nico_P | maybe the pointer's not pointing where you think it is |
| 21:20:37 | kugel | amiconn: hmm true |
| 21:20:39 | Massa | kugel: that's how it should work - but currently my code does not do that ;) - I first have to find the original "initial" viewport definition... |
| 21:21:05 | * | Nico_P makes supper |
| 21:21:44 | kugel | Nico_P: but doesn't it look correct to you? |
| 21:21:54 | disorganizer | wouldnt it be cleaner to use drawmodes and let the vp-definition decide to be transparent etc with an additional parameter? |
| 21:21:57 | Nico_P | I haven't looked in enough detail to say |
| 21:22:28 | Massa | amiconn: your suggestion directly leads to my second problem :) - I decided that a FF00FF in a viewport definition without backdrop should lead to the system defined background colour. |
| 21:22:41 | | Quit DerDome (Nick collision from services.) |
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| 21:23:18 | kugel | Nico_P: Look in wps_parser.c. After the "#if 1" I have the old function (parse_list...) after the "#else". this parse_list piece is exactly the same with is written in viewport.c. And the one in wps_parser.c works |
| 21:23:19 | Massa | amiconn: but how can I access it in the lcd driver? |
| 21:23:29 | DerPapst | #gsoc is noisy... |
| 21:23:42 | scorche|sh | it is actually quite quiet atm... |
| 21:23:43 | amiconn | The default background colour *is* the one set in the default viewport |
| 21:24:09 | amiconn | You cannot access global_setting from firmware/, that's by design |
| 21:24:30 | kugel | Massa: lcd-xx.h.c in firmware/driver |
| 21:24:36 | Massa | amiconn: you mean the one in "default_vp"? |
| 21:24:39 | | Quit PaulJam (".") |
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| 21:25:10 | kugel | s/.h// |
| 21:25:21 | amiconn | yes |
| 21:25:47 | Massa | amiconn: hmm, so what would you suggest? Totally ignoring FF00FF without backdrop? Or always setting it to LCD_DEFAULT_BG? |
| 21:26:01 | amiconn | Neither, I think |
| 21:26:24 | amiconn | There's the global background colour, and the backdrop path resp. no backdrop path |
| 21:26:32 | Nico_P | kugel: couldn't the error be in the size validation? |
| 21:26:35 | amiconn | The settings code could handle this |
| 21:26:48 | amiconn | Hmm, actually not that good an idea |
| 21:27:20 | * | Massa don't want a purple colour for FF00FF when not using a backdrop ;) |
| 21:27:24 | amiconn | Massa: I think the default viewport needs a special case, i.e. it can never have its transparency flag set |
| 21:27:31 | kugel | Nico_P: I don't think so. the wps %V is fine. And the size validation works (I can see that since my list viewport is fine) |
| 21:27:39 | | Join kushal_12_27_200 [0] (n=kushal@12.169.180.134) |
| 21:28:14 | disorganizer | so why dont we just add a new parameter to the %V definition and let the user decide whether to use transparency or coloring? |
| 21:28:17 | kugel | Nico_P: Also, the size validation is copied 1 by 1 from wps_parser |
| 21:28:36 | kugel | disorganizer: I don't like that idea actually |
| 21:28:48 | disorganizer | why not? personal preference? |
| 21:29:04 | amiconn | lcd_set_background() would set the transparency flag if colour = LCD_RGBPACK(0xff, 0x00, 0xff), but not if the default viewport is active |
| 21:29:12 | kugel | I'm against having mass vp parameters |
| 21:29:24 | | Quit Arathis2 ("Bye, bye") |
| 21:29:25 | amiconn | There's one important question left though - how do we handle this on greyscale? |
| 21:29:28 | Massa | what are the lss_pattern, lse_pattern, lst_pattern members of the viewport struct? |
| 21:30:09 | amiconn | Those are the colour for the gradient selector bar (nasty stuff if you ask me) |
| 21:30:14 | amiconn | *colours |
| 21:30:20 | disorganizer | kugel: so we just also drop the bg color, as you can always use a backdrop to color the area :-P |
| 21:30:39 | Massa | amiconn: so not used for wps? |
| 21:30:48 | kugel | disorganizer: and if we don't have a backdrop? |
| 21:31:10 | disorganizer | kugel: system defined bg color. that logical and easy to understand |
| 21:31:11 | Massa | amiconn: how is FF00FF handled for greyscale when using BMPs? |
| 21:31:22 | amiconn | Not at all yet |
| 21:31:29 | | Quit quitte_ ("Changing server") |
| 21:31:43 | * | disorganizer wonders if any user will understand that FF00FF makes transparency |
| 21:31:51 | amiconn | But I have plans how to handle it: calculate a mask on load (and at compile time for built-in bitmaps) |
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| 21:32:29 | Massa | disorganizer: the problem here is that I don't have access to the system defined bg-color (in lcd-XX.c) |
| 21:33:08 | Massa | disorganizer: WPS designer already have to understand FF00FF because this is the colour which is used for transparency in bitmaps... |
| 21:33:20 | disorganizer | could we solve this with the parser? on ||| for the colors the system colors could be used |
| 21:33:42 | | Nick disorganizer is now known as dis-afk (n=artemis@p5B11D0A0.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 21:35:06 | Massa | amiconn: BTW, the lcd_get_background methods will always return the viewport background colour, even if it's not used (because a backdrop is defined) - is this correct behaviour? |
| 21:35:06 | | Quit DerDome (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 21:36:00 | amiconn | yes |
| 21:36:29 | Massa | amiconn: shouldn't it return the currently used colour? |
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| 21:38:35 | kugel | it returns the bg color of the currently active vp |
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| 21:40:35 | | Quit jhMikeS () |
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| 21:49:01 | | Nick dis-afk is now known as disorganizer (n=artemis@p5B11D0A0.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 21:50:24 | disorganizer | again to my proposal: how about using the %V definition with empty colors to let the wps parset set the systemFG and BG colors as vp colors? |
| 21:54:30 | kugel | Nico_P: Hmm, I think I found the problem |
| 21:54:50 | | Join SoapHotel [0] (n=Soap@98.17.49.200) |
| 21:54:54 | kugel | The part " /* Check for trailing | */" doesn't work in my version of viewport parsing |
| 21:55:10 | kugel | I commented that out and it works |
| 21:56:00 | | Quit nplus ("Leaving") |
| 21:57:04 | * | DerPapst is registered at gsoc o.O |
| 21:57:19 | Nico_P | DerPapst: have you submitted an application yet? |
| 21:57:28 | | Join FOAD_ [0] (n=dok@dinah.blub.net) |
| 21:57:43 | DerPapst | nope. i decided ~2 hours ago to apply :-P |
| 21:57:49 | scorche|sh | pfft...leave him alone till we get it =P |
| 21:57:59 | DerPapst | hehe |
| 21:58:27 | * | midgey notices we now have a LocalizablePlugins page |
| 21:59:46 | kugel | Nico_P: Indeed, weird |
| 21:59:47 | | Quit rasher (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 22:00 |
| 22:00:32 | DerPapst | Nico_P: i'm planing a battleship clone plugin with AI and 2 player mode. i'll whipe something up and pastebin it. but probably not today anmore. |
| 22:00:34 | kugel | I'm not entirely sure why the trailing pipe is needed anyway# |
| 22:00:38 | DerPapst | have to get up eraly :-/ |
| 22:00:54 | | Join rasher [0] (n=rasher@0x5550f5a3.adsl.cybercity.dk) |
| 22:01:43 | Nico_P | DerPapst: quite a nice project idea :) |
| 22:02:25 | * | disorganizer wonders if we could get a nethack clone on rockbox :-) |
| 22:02:36 | DerPapst | scorche|sh: the faqs said not to blindly submit any applications without talking to at least one of the mentors :-) (or similar) |
| 22:02:41 | | Quit kushal_12_27_200 ("This computer has gone to sleep") |
| 22:02:50 | Massa | disorganizer: for me this is the second (optimization) step - useful defaults when no colours are defined... |
| 22:02:57 | * | scorche|sh pats DerPapst's head |
| 22:03:08 | DerPapst | awww :-) |
| 22:03:32 | * | DerPapst just wanted to proove he read big parts of the faqs ;-) |
| 22:03:33 | Rincewind | disorganizer: nethack without a keyboard?? |
| 22:03:40 | disorganizer | massa: the question if whether we really need transparency without having a backdrop. as overlapping viewports are not allowed, why transparency? |
| 22:03:55 | disorganizer | rincewind: selectable actions, like with psp or nds |
| 22:04:33 | disorganizer | rincewind +on |
| 22:04:41 | Rincewind | disorganizer: there was a thread once in the forum about this |
| 22:05:07 | * | disorganizer must think of searching the logs and forums everytime he gets an idea |
| 22:05:33 | disorganizer | got to go to my little one for a short while. be back in a few seconds |
| 22:05:36 | | Nick disorganizer is now known as dis-afk (n=artemis@p5B11D0A0.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 22:05:46 | Rincewind | disorganizer: I don't want to discourage you, nethack would certainly be cool. |
| 22:06:56 | Massa | disorganizer: there is no transparency without backdrop - it'll currently will just use the bg-color of the default viewport. When later on overlapping will be allowed we could also set the colour of the underlying viewport... |
| 22:09:04 | | Nick dis-afk is now known as disorganizer (n=artemis@p5B11D0A0.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 22:09:24 | disorganizer | massa: what would be the sense of having transparency when there is no backdrop? |
| 22:09:39 | disorganizer | what would you see "through" the viewport's background? |
| 22:10:40 | | Join linuxstb_ [0] (n=linuxstb@rockbox/developer/linuxstb) |
| 22:10:52 | Massa | disorganizer: the colour of the default viewport (that's the system defined background colour). |
| 22:11:07 | * | DerPapst wonders if overlapping viewports are wanted.. |
| 22:11:27 | disorganizer | but if we use ||| to tell the wps parser the use FG and BG of the system, that would have the same effect. |
| 22:11:48 | * | Massa would really love overlapping viewports! |
| 22:12:06 | kugel | of which target with remote can I compile the sim with arm-elf installed? |
| 22:12:21 | disorganizer | linuxstb: why are overlapping viewports not allowed? |
| 22:12:27 | | Quit Soap (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 22:12:58 | * | disorganizer would also love overlapping viewports, and transparency would make sense then. but imho not with a strange transparency coding like with bitmaps. what if i like the color FF00FF in my wps? |
| 22:13:01 | Massa | disorganizer: but only if you don't use a backdrop - so if you add a backdrop to your wps, you have to change the viewport definitions... |
| 22:13:34 | disorganizer | no, because then you want to see the backdrop, which should pre-color the areas the viewports use :-) if needed. |
| 22:13:54 | Massa | disorganizer: then you have to use FF00FE instead (which IMHO does not make any visible difference)... |
| 22:14:09 | | Quit FOAD (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 22:14:10 | | Nick FOAD_ is now known as FOAD (n=dok@dinah.blub.net) |
| 22:14:17 | * | disorganizer hates having codes instead of parameters |
| 22:15:21 | disorganizer | what about a byte with flags for the viewport's behaviour as parameter? |
| 22:15:56 | Massa | disorganizer: I don't care if it's FF00FF or an additional flag - but for me it was a logical behaviour because FF00FF is already used as transparency colour in BMPs... |
| 22:15:58 | disorganizer | one bit toggles transparency, ... |
| 22:16:00 | | Quit bughunter2 ("Leaving.") |
| 22:16:24 | * | disorganizer thinks not every wps - clicker does use transparency in his/her bitmaps |
| 22:17:20 | kugel | FF00FF is fine, no need for an extra parameter imo |
| 22:17:21 | disorganizer | but as said, transparency imho only makes sense when we have overlapping bitmaps. |
| 22:17:41 | kugel | 1) hardly anyone uses FF00FF anyway, 2) bitmaps do it in the same way |
| 22:18:10 | disorganizer | -bitmaps +viewports |
| 22:18:10 | DerPapst | FF00FE would look almost similar on all colour targets. |
| 22:18:27 | kugel | almost as ugly as FF00FF* |
| 22:18:32 | kugel | :) |
| 22:18:35 | disorganizer | what about adding half-transparency ? |
| 22:18:35 | DerPapst | indeed |
| 22:18:47 | disorganizer | like a transparency % value as parameter :-) |
| 22:19:25 | kugel | doesn't sound bad too me, probably worth an existing parameter. But I doubt the code work is worth it |
| 22:19:43 | | Quit XavierGr (Nick collision from services.) |
| 22:19:54 | | Join XavierGr [0] (n=xavier@rockbox/staff/XavierGr) |
| 22:20:07 | SoapHotel | would FF00FE get dithered on a 16 bit screen while FF00FF not? |
| 22:20:22 | disorganizer | note to myself: use sarcasm tags more often |
| 22:20:51 | | Nick SoapHotel is now known as Soap (n=Soap@98.17.49.200) |
| 22:21:26 | Massa | I'll just implement it as is (with FF00FF as transparency colour), when it's finished I'll create a patch tracker entry and then the discussion can take place and the decision could be made be the one who commits it (or not)... |
| 22:21:43 | | Join erik006-2 [0] (n=erik006@76-10-138-75.dsl.teksavvy.com) |
| 22:22:07 | | Quit kugel ("ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox 2.0.0.12/2008020710]") |
| 22:22:19 | | Quit linuxstb (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) |
| 22:23:04 | * | disorganizer thinks one of the findings of a usability study will propably be that we use to many things which are logical to programmers but for noone else :-P |
| 22:23:51 | disorganizer | anyways i dont care, i just wanted to get the point across that imho we need to get wps's more readable. |
| 22:24:39 | Massa | disorganizer: when implementing partial transparency, you also have to add additional parameters to bitmap definitions (and to make it clean: also a parameter which defines which colour is used as transparency colour) - but I'm sure most users (not programmes) will be scared of more parameters |
| 22:24:43 | DerPapst | which would break backwards compatibility (or however that is spelled) |
| 22:25:30 | Rincewind | disorganizer: if my gsoc proposal gets accepted we will habe a gui wps editor by the end of the summer |
| 22:25:35 | disorganizer | which is not too important, as the next weeks will break wps syntax anyways because of the development (%v tags propably need to get changed anyways if you followed the irc logs) |
| 22:25:49 | * | disorganizer hates guis |
| 22:26:13 | Massa | disorganizer: what we need is a really good "clickable" tool which reads WPS files and displays it graphically and also creates wps files :) |
| 22:26:14 | disorganizer | they never do what you expect them to do |
| 22:26:24 | Massa | Rincewind: that's what I meant! |
| 22:26:31 | Soap | to be rolled into RBUtil, Rincewind? |
| 22:26:50 | Rincewind | Soap: possibly. I plan to use Qt |
| 22:27:21 | Massa | DerPapst: of course it would break compatibility - it's just to round up the discussion (I personally don't think partial transparency is needed). |
| 22:28:46 | | Quit linuxstb_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 22:28:52 | disorganizer | the only important thing: we need to do the wps-compatibility breaking things before the new wps gallery is in production :-) |
| 22:29:03 | | Join linuxstb_ [0] (n=linuxstb@rockbox/developer/linuxstb) |
| 22:29:09 | disorganizer | linuxstb: problems? |
| 22:29:35 | DerPapst | bad isp... like me |
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| 22:38:17 | | Quit jgarvey ("Leaving") |
| 22:45:05 | | Quit Mathiasdm ("Yuuw!") |
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| 22:51:21 | | Join jhMikeS [50] (n=jethead7@rockbox/developer/jhMikeS) |
| 22:52:32 | * | DerPapst 's proposal for his gsoc application (draft version). http://pastebin.ca/960111 |
| 22:52:51 | * | scorche|sh is too busy refreshing woot to look |
| 22:53:16 | * | gevaerts accuses scorche|sh of lying. He's also busy with other things ;) |
| 22:53:36 | scorche|sh | work is secondary to bags of crap |
| 22:54:10 | DerPapst | heh |
| 22:54:45 | joey1 | Hi guys, Does anyone know how to use VMware to compile rockbox? Ive followed the steps on the wiki page but get stuck on the make zip part. It says: "cp: cannot stat '/home/user/rockbox/wps//cabbiev2/lockclosed-128x128x16.bmp': no such file or directory" what is it that im doing wrong? |
| 22:55:16 | gevaerts | DerPapst: s/playfiled/playfield/ |
| 22:56:01 | bluebrother | DerPapst: how about writing a sentence why we need your plugin? |
| 22:56:20 | bluebrother | joey1: what player are you building for? Ipod Video? |
| 22:56:30 | gevaerts | DerPapst: also, maybe elaborate a bit on what you want to do with the remote |
| 22:56:38 | bluebrother | make zip should continue (it only fails on some theme file, not Rockbox itself) |
| 22:57:07 | joey1 | no im build for the iriver h10 |
| 22:57:58 | joey1 | so my zip should be created? |
| 22:58:12 | DerPapst | noted. thanks :-) |
| 22:58:30 | | Join phinze [0] (n=phinze@pcp027324pcs.jesres.mu.edu) |
| 22:58:33 | bluebrother | it should. We had a image file for the default theme missing a while back (on other targets) |
| 22:58:51 | * | bluebrother tries building for h10 |
| 22:59:12 | * | petur too |
| 22:59:14 | pixelma | joey1: how did you retrieve the source? |
| 22:59:30 | | Join mikus [0] (n=5316ccd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-be21877ce43510ea) |
| 23:00 |
| 23:00:19 | | Nick erik006-2 is now known as erik006 (n=erik006@76-10-138-75.dsl.teksavvy.com) |
| 23:00:44 | pixelma | ah, there really is a mistake in the .wps file |
| 23:00:50 | joey1 | i typed svn co cvn://svn.... into the Eterm box |
| 23:00:58 | * | pixelma blames linuxstb_ ;) |
| 23:01:44 | pixelma | I'll fix (but will take a bit to testcompile) |
| 23:01:58 | | Join Naked [0] (i=naked@naked.iki.fi) |
| 23:02:43 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 23:02:55 | | Quit swimmer (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) |
| 23:02:55 | | Quit Hadaka (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) |
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| 23:03:44 | | Join swimmer [0] (n=swimmer@95-50-223.ftth.xms.internl.net) |
| 23:03:56 | joey1 | also what folder do i browse to on my computer to find the zip that i compiled |
| 23:04:37 | | Quit petur ("*plop*") |
| 23:05:00 | | Quit disorganizer ("ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox 2.0.0.12/2008020121]") |
| 23:05:07 | | Quit ol_schoola () |
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| 23:08:50 | Rincewind | DerPapst: two player mode: one player main, the other player remote screen |
| 23:09:21 | Nico_P | DerPapst: have you seen the application template? |
| 23:09:42 | DerPapst | Nico_P: yes. but i forget about it :-) thanks for reminging |
| 23:09:58 | DerPapst | Rincewind: exactly |
| 23:10:16 | DerPapst | *reminding |
| 23:11:03 | Rincewind | DerPapst: you need a detailed project plan with milestones and estimates when you complete them |
| 23:11:13 | * | Rincewind hates that bit |
| 23:12:08 | * | gevaerts put that bit in the template ;) |
| 23:12:26 | | Quit mf0102 ("Verlassend") |
| 23:12:27 | DerPapst | Yep. that'll come later. I'm working on the "need" part, that you didn't have to do. |
| 23:12:40 | * | Rincewind hates gevaerts by proxy |
| 23:12:46 | scorche|sh | it can be rough, but we want at least an idea and a way to measure your progress :) |
| 23:12:58 | Rincewind | DerPapst: Need: Games are fun! |
| 23:13:05 | Bagder | to know when to bring out the whip! |
| 23:13:25 | DerPapst | and "nice if you have to kill some time" |
| 23:13:28 | | Join matsl [0] (n=matsl@1-1-4-2a.mal.sth.bostream.se) |
| 23:13:43 | gevaerts | Rincewind: saying that you hate various mentors isn't going to help ;) |
| 23:13:49 | Rincewind | and "nice if you have to kill an enemy" |
| 23:14:38 | * | Rincewind might buy gevaerts a box of beer, too. |
| 23:14:57 | * | gevaerts suddenly likes Rincewind's proposal a lot |
| 23:14:58 | * | domonoky thinks beer surely helps :-) |
| 23:15:17 | * | DerPapst wonders when beer shows up |
| 23:15:24 | DerPapst | err... s/beer/petur |
| 23:15:49 | bluebrother | grrr ... we have capitalization issues at least on m:robe bootloader installation in rbutil |
| 23:16:04 | gevaerts | DerPapst: he will soon, now that you've spoken the magic word |
| 23:16:23 | * | DerPapst hides... just in case |
| 23:16:40 | roolku | bluebrother: ? |
| 23:17:24 | bluebrother | rbutil calls the folder "SYSTEM" while on my player it's "System" |
| 23:17:34 | bluebrother | and linux cares about the capitalization ... |
| 23:17:36 | * | domonoky will take the blame.. :-) |
| 23:18:06 | roolku | bluebrother: but surely not on FAT, how could it |
| 23:18:26 | markun | can anyone build a iriver h1xx and/or h3xx bootloader for me and verify something? |
| 23:19:52 | | Quit linuxstb_ (Remote closed the connection) |
| 23:20:00 | | Join linuxstb [0] (n=linuxstb@rockbox/developer/linuxstb) |
| 23:20:24 | markun | linuxstb: I split up boot.lds, but need to do some testing before I can commit |
| 23:20:29 | markun | do you want to take a look? |
| 23:20:30 | bluebrother | roolku: it does on FAT as that can distinguish cases. |
| 23:21:21 | | Join linuxstb_ [0] (n=linuxstb@i-83-67-212-170.freedom2surf.net) |
| 23:21:27 | roolku | bluebrother: yes, you are right |
| 23:21:29 | | Quit domonoky (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 23:21:31 | | Quit linuxstb (Nick collision from services.) |
| 23:21:54 | bluebrother | no issue on windows as that doesn't care about case. Still, we need to make rbutil a bit smarter in that domain. |
| 23:21:57 | DerPapst | GSoCApplicationTemplate2008 isn't of any help yet since i'm still busy with the abstract part. Though the page should mention what bluebrother said if the idea isn't on the Ideas List. |
| 23:22:08 | | Nick linuxstb_ is now known as linuxstb (n=linuxstb@rockbox/developer/linuxstb) |
| 23:22:16 | linuxstb | markun: Sure |
| 23:22:43 | markun | linuxstb: I have a diff of every boot.lds against the old one and a patch |
| 23:22:53 | markun | http://pastebin.ca/960016 |
| 23:22:59 | markun | http://130.89.160.166/rockbox/bootlds.diff |
| 23:23:03 | * | linuxstb wonders what pixelma is blaming him for |
| 23:24:06 | DerPapst | randomly breaking wpses |
| 23:24:09 | DerPapst | :-P |
| 23:24:27 | Rincewind | DerPapst: there is one item on this in the middle of the template page |
| 23:24:29 | pixelma | linuxstb: I hope to commit in a few minutes then you'll see ;) |
| 23:24:30 | gevaerts | DerPapst: it says 'Briefly explain why your project is useful for rockbox'. |
| 23:24:35 | * | Nico_P has a playback patch that shouldn't make a difference but makes things cleaner |
| 23:24:45 | * | linuxstb tries to look innocent |
| 23:24:49 | DerPapst | meh... |
| 23:24:56 | * | DerPapst clears his glases |
| 23:25:21 | * | gevaerts denies having added that to the wiki one minute ago |
| 23:25:34 | scorche|sh | DerPapst: and you were doing so good with readong the FAQs ;) |
| 23:26:10 | DerPapst | well... it doesn't say that for the abstract part ;-) |
| 23:26:18 | DerPapst | but what ever. :-P |
| 23:26:51 | * | gevaerts thinks that's as it should be. The abstract should just describe the project, not try to sell it. |
| 23:27:16 | Chronon | I would second that, gevaerts. |
| 23:28:09 | * | amiconn is looking at an arbitrarily chosen manual and scratches head |
| 23:28:10 | DerPapst | gevaerts: so http://pastebin.ca/960162 should be enough for the abstract part? |
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| 23:29:42 | | Quit Galois (Remote closed the connection) |
| 23:29:51 | * | Nico_P summons pondlife |
| 23:29:56 | | Join Galois [0] (i=djao@efnet-math.org) |
| 23:29:59 | Nico_P | Slasheri: here? |
| 23:30:01 | gevaerts | I think it's a good abstract. |
| 23:31:04 | DerPapst | mkay. thanks. |
| 23:31:21 | * | DerPapst will do the rest tomorrow. |
| 23:31:55 | gevaerts | But I'm only the guy who wrote half a template on the wiki. There are other mentors... |
| 23:31:56 | Rincewind | DerPapst: you used 989 chars, you have 1511 left for your abstract |
| 23:32:01 | | Join Zarggg [0] (n=z@216-15-73-111.c3-0.eas-ubr6.atw-eas.pa.cable.rcn.com) |
| 23:32:01 | pixelma | joey1: update your source tree (run "svn up") and then try to make the zip again |
| 23:32:28 | | Join erik006-2 [0] (n=erik006@76-10-136-126.dsl.teksavvy.com) |
| 23:33:02 | * | Nico_P would like comments on his FSM approach to playback.c buffering: http://pastebin.ca/960166 |
| 23:33:09 | gevaerts | Rincewind: you don't _have_ to bludgeon us to death with lots of text you know ;) |
| 23:33:25 | DerPapst | Rincewind: heh. quality over quantity ;-) |
| 23:33:41 | * | Rincewind wanted to use his fancy emacs character count function again |
| 23:33:48 | * | DerPapst could add some random ahmms and such |
| 23:34:02 | joey1 | ok |
| 23:35:27 | DerPapst | gevaerts: i'll bugger some other mentors next days ;-) But the opinion of one mentor is good for the beginning :-) |
| 23:36:33 | dionoea | How many applicants does rockbox have? |
| 23:36:56 | gevaerts | DerPapst: sure, just keep in mind that I joined rockbox less than two months ago ;) |
| 23:37:11 | DerPapst | i know. :-) |
| 23:37:57 | gevaerts | You should. You answered first when I asked my first question here :) |
| 23:38:20 | DerPapst | If DevCon2008 actually happens in berlin and while gsoc takes place i might get my menor a beer ;-) |
| 23:38:27 | pixelma | linuxstb: hmm... the commit message is a bit misleading but if you look at the file changed (and the dev)... |
| 23:38:33 | DerPapst | hehe |
| 23:38:41 | pixelma | err s/dev/diff |
| 23:38:55 | Rincewind | Berlin would be nice, might be possible for me to attend, too. |
| 23:39:07 | DerPapst | pixelma commited an entire dev? |
| 23:39:21 | bluebrother | hehe |
| 23:39:30 | * | gevaerts wonders if anyone will actually do anything else than drinking beer at the DevCon |
| 23:39:40 | DerPapst | ummm.... no. |
| 23:39:44 | pixelma | DerPapst: and that from someone who knows menors ;P |
| 23:39:45 | * | bluebrother wonders when devcon will actually happen |
| 23:39:49 | Bagder | gevaerts: build towers |
| 23:39:54 | DerPapst | meh :-P |
| 23:40:10 | bluebrother | and drink beer afterwards? ;-) |
| 23:40:15 | * | gevaerts reminds people of his beer offer if the date is decided this week |
| 23:40:38 | | Join SoapHotel [0] (n=Soap@98.17.49.200) |
| 23:40:46 | * | bluebrother missed that offer |
| 23:41:07 | gevaerts | Bagder: before or after drinking beer ? That might have an effect on the height of the towers |
| 23:41:34 | Bagder | only for the weak! ;-P |
| 23:41:38 | DerPapst | and the broken daps afterwards :-P |
| 23:42:44 | * | gevaerts repeats his promise to buy everyone at the DevCon a beer if the date is decided this week |
| 23:42:46 | bluebrother | given enought daps the tower will still be of some reasonable height ;-) |
| 23:43:02 | * | bluebrother would like to have a date soon too |
| 23:43:44 | DerPapst | well, still 3 days to go. |
| 23:43:50 | | Quit MethoS-- (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 23:44:02 | bluebrother | how about july, 4th - 6th? |
| 23:44:29 | scorche|sh | gevaerts: you can see what happened at past devcons...outlines are on |
| 23:44:42 | scorche|sh | bluebrother: would make travel expensive because of US holiday |
| 23:44:48 | DerPapst | any weekend would be good for me. |
| 23:45:10 | Bagder | I'm also fine with basically any date |
| 23:45:31 | pixelma | me too, just want to know soon enough to organise |
| 23:45:50 | scorche|sh | gevaerts: www.rockbox.org/devconwest2007 www.rockbox.org/devcon2007 |
| 23:45:55 | * | gevaerts can't make any date between 2008-07-10 and 2008-08-10, but most other weekends should be fine |
| 23:45:56 | DerPapst | preferrably after 1st half of june though |
| 23:45:57 | bluebrother | same here −− and I have the first two weekends in june blocked |
| 23:46:05 | pixelma | DerPapst: you don't have to travel far, do you? |
| 23:46:12 | Bagder | I think it is more a matter of the organizers to pick one that seems fine and then the rest have to adjust |
| 23:46:18 | bluebrother | have we decided a location already? |
| 23:46:24 | DerPapst | 530 whule UNI takes place |
| 23:46:33 | DerPapst | *while and 530km |
| 23:46:46 | pixelma | I think Berlin and Stockholm are the candidates now |
| 23:47:10 | scorche|sh | i would be fine with either, since the cost is so high for either one now =/ |
| 23:47:12 | * | DerPapst wouldn't attend if Stockholm is chosen |
| 23:47:17 | | Quit erik006 (Success) |
| 23:48:03 | bluebrother | Berlin would be much shorter for me (but Stockholm would be interesting ;-) |
| 23:48:10 | n1s | bluebrother: thanks for fixing those button commands for the manual |
| 23:48:25 | scorche|sh | stockholm sounds quite interesting according to GodEater's comments... |
| 23:48:45 | pixelma | bluebrother: I didn't see much of Stockholm last year... (though I've been there before) |
| 23:48:56 | bluebrother | n1s: if you know the correct buttons please fill them in ... |
| 23:49:12 | DerPapst | though i doubt you'll be able to do much site seeing while DevCon |
| 23:49:16 | scorche|sh | wherever it is, i plan on making it a week thing...2 weekends, so if others want to stick around with me and do something... |
| 23:49:51 | scorche|sh | it just isnt worth flying out there from the US and staying just one weekend |
| 23:50:00 | n1s | bluebrother: the next step of crazy automation is probably to auto generate those button commands from the source .c files... |
| 23:50:20 | DerPapst | heh |
| 23:50:43 | bluebrother | n1s: would be nice, but after looking at the button maps I wasn't really sure which button exactly gets used |
| 23:50:44 | DerPapst | a self writing manual. lovely. |
| 23:50:53 | | Quit roolku () |
| 23:51:05 | * | scorche|sh heads out to do some work |
| 23:51:07 | bluebrother | I guess it would be quite hard to achieve this. But if you manage to do it: great ;-) |
| 23:51:26 | DerPapst | maybe gsoc2014 |
| 23:51:33 | DerPapst | :-P |
| 23:51:49 | Rincewind | this might be a way to have customisable buttons? If the custom buttons update the manual accordingly.... |
| 23:51:59 | n1s | bluebrother: it's currently at the very bottom of my list of ideas/interesting things :) |
| 23:52:15 | | Quit SoapHotel (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 23:52:43 | * | DerPapst hears "customisable buttons" and hides |
| 23:52:46 | | Join SoapHotel [0] (n=Soap@98.17.49.200) |
| 23:52:54 | bluebrother | Rincewind: no ... |
| 23:53:03 | Rincewind | relax, I'm just joking |
| 23:53:12 | | Quit Soap (Nick collision from services.) |
| 23:53:14 | | Nick SoapHotel is now known as Soap (n=Soap@98.17.49.200) |
| 23:53:15 | bluebrother | unless we can get the manual to recompile once the user changes a setting ;-) |
| 23:53:43 | DerPapst | manual on target, reading the config file |
| 23:53:51 | Chronon | And then support on the forums will really boil down to RTFM |
| 23:54:18 | n1s | Well since the manual suffers from a lack of love and care all the automation we can get is nice IMHO |
| 23:54:20 | bluebrother | Read the fine machine? |
| 23:54:29 | Chronon | LOL |
| 23:54:37 | Chronon | indeed. |
| 23:54:52 | bluebrother | it should be RTFD in that case −− read the fine DAP ;-) |
| 23:55:52 | | Quit tvelocity_ (Remote closed the connection) |
| 23:55:59 | * | gevaerts doesn't look forward to reading the manual on a c200 |
| 23:56:19 | bluebrother | just think of reading it on a charchell player ;) |
| 23:56:39 | DerPapst | sounds like endless fun |
| 23:56:56 | DerPapst | ways better then battleship ;-) |
| 23:57:02 | Rincewind | there could be podcast of the manual |
| 23:57:06 | gevaerts | endless anyway. Not sure about the fun |
| 23:57:24 | bluebrother | does anybody know how I can color the output of a Makefile running on windows cmd.exe? |
| 23:58:23 | DerPapst | i don't think that is possible. i haven't ssen something like that on windows at least. |
| 23:58:39 | | Quit joey1 ("CGI:IRC") |
| 23:58:44 | DerPapst | /ignore typos |
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