#rockbox 2008-06-01

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#rockbox log for 2008-06-01

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00:10:39	Hilikus	hey guys, is there a cover art resize patch that i can use ?
00:12:39	soap	if there is a current one, Hilikus, it is in the tracker (Flyspray)
00:17:18	*	petur discovers he'll have a place to sleep at devcon :)
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00:30:58	wpyh	OK, I discovered that the 2 MB limitation on the tracker is for single attachments only
00:31:09	wpyh	With multiple attachments I can easily exceed 2 MB
00:32:44		Quit davina ("GNU/Linux the free alternative to Windows")
00:33:09	wpyh	On the wiki, I read that "we doesn't support greyscale anti-aliasing". Is this hard to implement? Or was it decided that it would take too much battery life away?
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00:55:48	midgey	Bagder: I've sent a new patch that hopefully fixes your issues building
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01:09:57	DrewShiner	greetings. i need write permissions on the wiki
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01:12:42	linuxstb	DrewShiner: What do you want to edit?
01:13:40	DrewShiner	http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/IpodAccessories
01:14:30	linuxstb	DrewShiner: Done. Happy editing.
01:14:35	DrewShiner	thank you
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01:19:43	stripwax	Hey, it would be worth adding an "accessory adc reading" column to that page ...
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01:34:49	stripwax	done...
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03:00
03:01:48	saratoga2	JdGordon: around?
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03:12:03	saratoga	i'm pretty sure icons.h is just used on the archos players, yet my makefile is absolutely convinced that it should error out unless its included
03:12:12	saratoga	and i have no idea where its getting this idea
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03:44:11	JdGordon\|zzz	saratoga: hey
03:44:33	saratoga	JdGordon\|zzz: hey, finally figured out why I was getting that icons.h error
03:44:49		Nick JdGordon\|zzz is now known as JdGordon (i=jonno@rockbox/developer/JdGordon)
03:44:52	JdGordon	oh good :)
03:44:54	saratoga	apparently you can't build apps/gui without apps/recording
03:45:15	saratoga	since the makefile requires an empty .h file in the recording directory
03:45:47	JdGordon	hmm... ok
03:46:13	saratoga	also, i got the bootloader to compile using a dummy main.c, but it doesn't seem to work
03:46:13	kugel	can someone quickly help me with replay gain?
03:46:27	kugel	Which tags reads rockbox? (vorbis comment)
03:46:29	saratoga	Bagder seemed to think it would be better to just get normal builds working
03:47:03	kugel	MediaMonkey writes REPLAYGAIN_TRACK_GAIN & REPLAYGAIN_TRACK_PEAK
03:47:06	JdGordon	more hassle though
03:47:15	JdGordon	why didnt the bootloader one work?
03:47:29	JdGordon	did you have the sdl stuff from uisdl.c in there?
03:47:33	saratoga	it just gives me a 300 byte file that prints a random string
03:47:36	saratoga	yeah i rolled it all in
03:47:56	saratoga	actually i take back the 300 byte thing, thats a different problem
03:48:55	saratoga	JdGordon: see here: http://www.rockbox.org/irc/log-20080531#22:33:40
03:49:23	saratoga	also, any idea where LANG_DISK_NAME_MMC gets defined? i'm not seeing it with grep
03:49:53	saratoga	oh lang.h
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03:52:57	JdGordon	"BagderI think a better approach is to simply ifdef out a lot of the code you want to wait with from SOURCES" <- thats the exact same as doing a "bootloader" build
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03:55:35	saratoga	i assumed he meant to still compile the gui stuff but without a lot of the extras like codecs and such
03:55:59	JdGordon	whatver.. the main thing is to get a working executable :p
03:56:18	JdGordon	I'm heading out for the day in 40min or so
03:58:39	saratoga	i'm probably going to work on something else in a few anyway
04:00
04:01:34	saratoga	ah finally got it to at least compile through apps
04:01:46	saratoga	now just got to worry about the 400 linker errors
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04:04:32	JdGordon	whats the errors?
04:04:57	saratoga	JdGordon: lots of multiply defined functions between firmware and uisimulator
04:05:16	JdGordon	ok
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04:05:31	saratoga	http://pastebin.com/m5a60beb9
04:05:34	saratoga	if you're interested
04:07:10	JdGordon	looks like fun
04:08:25	saratoga	some of these are odd, like undefined references to "cancel_cpu_boost"
04:08:32	saratoga	i'm not sure how it wouldn't be able to find that
04:09:24	JdGordon	sim doesnt have boostr control
04:09:39	JdGordon	but your config thinks it should...
04:10:20	saratoga	it should still link that function right?
04:10:26	saratoga	just it wouldn't do anything
04:11:39	JdGordon	not if its not being compiled
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04:59:22	wpyh	Hi
04:59:31	wpyh	any ui developers here?
05:00
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05:56:28	allele	plugins are able to use integer arrays, correct?
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06:01:25	hobbs	just got to use rockbox for the first time, and it's pretty fantastic. :)
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07:16:03	cosein	Is this channel used for discussion of the rockbox utility?
07:16:12	cosein	If so, I've got a bug to submit/talk about
07:17:00	advcomp2019	what is the bug
07:17:24	cosein	When generating .talk files it doesn't take kindly to international characters
07:20:39	cosein	it stops generating them
07:22:12	secleinteer	cosein: that's coz it's .us only :P
07:27:58	cosein	secleinteer: what do you mean
07:28:11	secleinteer	cosein: i'm jk lol
07:28:17	cosein	if i feed the title to sapi by hand it work fine
07:28:18	cosein	oh
07:28:22	cosein	anyways, i'm heading to bed
07:29:30	secleinteer	lol cy
07:29:31	secleinteer	a
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09:00
09:02:23	mrkiko	Good morning rockbox people!
09:02:55	wpyh	good afternoon here
09:03:32	***	Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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09:13:09	secleinteer	good middle of the night here
09:14:38	mrkiko	ahah
09:14:38	mrkiko	:D
09:15:34	mrkiko	I had always been excited when chatting with people living very far from my location. (siwtching my heart to rockbox-community)
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09:18:36	secleinteer	lol
09:27:07		Nick linuxstb_ is now known as linuxstb (n=linuxstb@rockbox/developer/linuxstb)
09:28:35	wpyh	hey guys
09:28:44	wpyh	i've just got myself an ipod video 80gb
09:29:07	*	mrkiko thinks problems starts
09:29:08	wpyh	will post results and experiences later (maybe a few days, weeks, who knows)
09:29:25	wpyh	sorry but I can't find the gigabeat here
09:29:50	wpyh	by the way I got it for 1100 RMB here, which is about US $160
09:29:56	wpyh	good price or not?
09:30:53	Bagder	what is the attachment in the WebHome wiki page?
09:31:00	mrkiko	ah... I think so, even if I'm in Italya
09:31:48	Bagder	... looks like a pic that was meant for another page
09:31:55	wpyh	Bagder: link?
09:32:01	secleinteer	wpyh: that's a little too good
09:32:03	secleinteer	you suer that isn't a fake?
09:32:08	secleinteer	they sell a lot of those over there :P
09:32:20	wpyh	I mean that's second hand
09:32:21	wpyh	:p
09:32:24	wpyh	no, not fake
09:32:27	secleinteer	oh, kk
09:32:28	secleinteer	lol
09:32:31	secleinteer	so it's 5.5g?
09:32:34	wpyh	how much is it there?
09:32:37	wpyh	yes, it's a 5.5g
09:32:51	secleinteer	i don't know how much for used
09:32:54	JdGordon	wpyh: you wanted a UI developer before?
09:32:57	wpyh	Oh
09:33:04	wpyh	yeah, I wanted to ask some questions
09:33:05	secleinteer	but an 80gb 6g is $250
09:33:18	wpyh	but the 6g is not rockboxable...
09:33:25	secleinteer	yep
09:33:41	secleinteer	but fuck that, i ordered a creative zen with 32gb ssd this morning from newegg ;/
09:33:45	wpyh	I wanted to ask why "we don't support greyscale antialiasing"?
09:33:49	secleinteer	no rockbox yet, but hopefully it will be working
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09:34:05	JdGordon	wpyh: because we dont do any AA at all...
09:34:08	wpyh	secleinteer: when that time comes, I'd probably buy the 6g too
09:34:27	secleinteer	wpyh: there's hardware encryption or something, so it might not ever happen
09:34:41	wpyh	JdGordon: I mean, why can't we rasterize a TTF font (for example) then load it onto rockbox?
09:34:45	secleinteer	creative zen is just new, so that's a different
09:34:47	secleinteer	issue
09:34:52	secleinteer	there's no compiler for the proc right now
09:35:08	Llorean	wpyh: That's not doing antialiasing. That requires translucency though. Currently fonts are 1bpp
09:35:10	secleinteer	just a $12k sdk for anyone who wants to make a device out of it :P
09:35:19	wpyh	Creative Zen... hm...
09:35:33	wpyh	oh no, $12K ...
09:35:42	secleinteer	ya
09:35:47	secleinteer	not much for creative to pay though
09:35:50	wpyh	Llorean: OK... why not make a new font format?
09:35:59	wpyh	like 4bpp I think would be good enough
09:36:07	Llorean	wpyh: Feel free, if it's fast enough and doesn't have a real performance cost.
09:36:12	wpyh	then we implement the translucency
09:37:10	wpyh	Llorean: OK, I'm just a noob here and right now the best I can do is translate things and submit new fonts. But by saying that do you mean, if someone somehow manages to implement that, then there's a chance it will be accepted?
09:37:15	wpyh	sorry for the mouthful...
09:37:32	Llorean	If someone implements it well enough, and there aren't big disadvantages to it, it might be accepted.
09:37:39	wpyh	OK, thanks
09:37:48	Llorean	Right now, though, most feel antialiased fonts don't really add much, so it has to have very, very, very little cost.
09:38:11	wpyh	OK, I'll have to understand the font rendering code first :)
09:39:25	wpyh	Next question: any ideas how to make a fully themable interface?
09:39:43	wpyh	I realize I'm a bit crazy here, but I wanted to reimplement the OF's UI
09:39:50	wpyh	like for example the iPod's UI
09:39:51	JdGordon	its about as themeable as its ever going to be
09:40:02	wpyh	How about an app?
09:40:15	wpyh	I see that an app can capture just about any button combination :)
09:40:18	JdGordon	what from the OF would you actually want?
09:40:25	Llorean	JdGordon: not entirely true. It's likely to have a customizable status bar and movable menu viewport.
09:40:29	wpyh	JdGordon: the UI :)
09:40:39	JdGordon	Llorean: thats why I said "about"...
09:40:46	JdGordon	wpyh: which part of it...
09:41:22	wpyh	JdGordon: Um, the whole UI, so it's like to the casual user, he / she is using the OF until he / she goes into the about screen and see ROCKBOX there :D
09:41:46	Llorean	Do you think they're going to forget they've installed it?
09:41:51	JdGordon	for the people that that would fool, you can fake that already
09:41:51	linuxstb	wpyh: Which original firmware? Rockbox runs on many different devices...
09:42:04	Llorean	Rockbox has far too many controls to duplicate the input methods of the iPod user interface. Too many functions.
09:42:09	wpyh	No, I'm just trying to make the user "feel" that
09:42:28	wpyh	linuxstb: for the devices that I have, namely the iPod, and the Meizu
09:42:31	hobbs	wpyh: and how do you expect to cope with the fact that the menu options (and the features underlying the menus) are completely different? :)
09:42:40	Llorean	If you, as a user, want to duplicate the iPod UI, you'd be better served hacking Rockbox to do it, than trying to do it with a mere theme.
09:43:05	JdGordon	1 thing I'd like to rip from the apple of is the time/alarm screen
09:43:19	wpyh	hobbs: well, that's unavoidable, so there'lll be more options (for example the ipod doesn't allow you to touch a lot of sound settings, but RB allows)
09:43:36	wpyh	Llorean: you mean, hack the interface code directly?
09:44:17	Llorean	Well, a UI is much more than just "how it looks". You'd need to change a lot of the controls, you'd have to implement a lot of changes to the while playing screen, etc, etc.
09:44:22	hobbs	wpyh: there's that, but there's also the fact that the organization is completely different. And the way the UI is written you can't do anything about that issue without touching lots and lots of code.
09:44:31	Llorean	Reorganize the menu structure, change the entries in the main menu, so on and so forht.
09:46:09	wpyh	I didn't find the "time/alarm screen"
09:46:52	wpyh	Yes, I realize that the UI structure is also very much different, so I think either a full theme engine is needed, or maybe an app
09:47:48	wpyh	If a full theme engine is used, then there will be a "default" theme
09:47:58	wpyh	and there will be selectable "themes"
09:48:06	JdGordon	not gonna happen
09:48:20	wpyh	not like the themes we now have (right now they are only changing the colours and fonts)
09:48:31	wpyh	JdGordon: yeah, I guessed that :P
09:48:34	Llorean	And the entire layout of the while playing screen.
09:48:47	wpyh	yes, the WPS too...
09:49:00	wpyh	Any ideas how to implement it?
09:49:02	Llorean	So basically, what you want is "the option to reorganize the main menu, and change which buttons do what"
09:49:17	Llorean	Which are on the top ten list of features the developers don't really want at all
09:49:37	wpyh	Llorean: Um... yes. And why the don't the devs want it?
09:50:02	Llorean	Does it really matter?
09:50:22	Llorean	Primarily code complexity and support. It makes the code both harder to maintain, and the software harder to provide consistent support for.
09:50:26	wpyh	Llorean: no, it doesn't actually
09:51:04	wpyh	well, how about an app? like a game, where the game takes control of everything,
09:51:18	wpyh	then an app could be for example "ui_meizu" which simulates the meizu ui
09:51:29	Llorean	As well dynamic menus would require a bit more overhead than static ones, which exacerbates already known performance concerns.
09:51:30	wpyh	I realize that that's a lot of work, though
09:52:10	Llorean	You could surely write your own plugin that controls playback and offers a menu system more familiar to you. Again, feel free, nobody's stopping you from modifying it for your own purposes.
09:52:12	wpyh	OK... I get your point there
09:52:37	Llorean	And, in a general sense, as long as it's a plugin and doesn't require changes to the core, it's more possible to get it included.
09:52:59	Llorean	Of course, you couldn't use the same font or images as the Apple UI if you wanted it included.
09:52:59	wpyh	Well, that's good
09:53:00	wpyh	:)
09:53:08	wpyh	yeah, I must find my own fonts
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09:55:35	wpyh	I'm considering the WenQuanYi fonts
09:57:26	hobbs	I was actually thinking about fonts myself today. I definitely want to find and convert a heavier sans-serif.
09:57:47	hobbs	I like a bigger font, my player has a nice high-res screen, and the stock fonts are all pretty light at the larger sizes.
09:58:43	JdGordon	does anyone think there would be an uproar over removing the %P tag and modifying the %pb tag to add a filename to the end? (to enable multiple progress bars with viewports)
09:59:28	Llorean	JdGordon: Multiple bars with different images? I think it'd be fine, though it'd break all existing viewports. Any way to make it backward compatible?
09:59:33	Llorean	Er, all existing WPSes
10:00
10:00:42	JdGordon	well, not really... the problem is curently only a sigle pb is possible, with conditional viewports we would need to setup multiple bars (max one per vp of course)... keeping the %P tag wont be possible without breaking compat anyway
10:01:40	Llorean	You couldn't say, default to %P's filename if one isn't specified in %pb?
10:01:57	Llorean	Like, just store it in a buffer somewhere when you get to %P, and if %pb doesn't include it during the load, patch in the one from %P?
10:02:10	Llorean	Just then require %P be before all %pbs during parse.
10:02:21	JdGordon	hmm.. yeah, that would work
10:03:01	Llorean	Then most existing ones probably wouldn't break, I think?
10:03:21	JdGordon	none would break if we did that
10:03:26	JdGordon	they are only use one pb
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10:05:13	webguest44	hi
10:06:20		Quit webguest44 (Client Quit)
10:06:52	JdGordon	bye!
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10:13:36	wpyh	JdGordon: you still here?
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10:13:59	JdGordon	yep
10:14:08	JdGordon	the bye was to webguest44 :p
10:16:15	wpyh	oh :p
10:16:15	wpyh	ok
10:16:29	wpyh	So, next question: why are we still using GB2312 for the Chinese encoding?
10:17:16	wpyh	can we update it to GBK or GB18030 instead? Not that I understand those two encodings well...
10:18:16	Llorean	As I've pointed out, many things simply require someone who's interested in them to go and do it.
10:18:55	wpyh	OK then :)
10:20:03	wpyh	Next question: I posted two fonts (WenQuanYi Unibit and WenQuanYi Bitmap Song) on the tracker. It's my first time posting, so... did I do it correctly?
10:20:10	wpyh	sorry for the tedious questions :)
10:20:39	JdGordon	you did... but same applies.. need to find someone interested to commit then :(
10:20:56	JdGordon	markun is usually helpful with lang/font stuff iirc
10:21:37	wpyh	oh, ok I know him
10:21:48	wpyh	thanks :)
10:21:55	*	JdGordon spots a bug in wps_common.c
10:22:05	wpyh	Next question: any ideas what's the problem with battery life on the ipod nano?
10:22:16	Llorean	wpyh: What problem?
10:22:16	JdGordon	int h = font_get(display->getfont())->height; <- should be checking the current viewport.. not display!
10:22:34	Llorean	Battery life on the Nano should only be slightly less than in the original firmware if you turn off accessory power.
10:22:38	wpyh	I only get 7:30 runtime (the OF gets 12:30 hours), which seems in line with the results on the wiki
10:22:59	Llorean	Are you using a current, official build, and did you actually perform benchmark tests using the same files to get both of these times?
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10:23:33	wpyh	I'm using the same files
10:23:42	wpyh	and I'm using the SVN build
10:23:58	wpyh	But I just found out that I have the "Accessory Power Supply" to "Yes"
10:24:04	wpyh	Is that what's causing the difference?
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10:24:30	Llorean	Did you perform actual measurements of the time, running until dead, too?
10:24:38	Llorean	The "time remaining" estimate is quite inaccurate.
10:24:58	Llorean	Also, features like the equalizer and other sound altering features, or complex WPSes, can reduce battery life as well.
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10:25:09	wpyh	Yes, and actually I didn't use the battery benchmark. I just left it on and waited until it died
10:25:41	Llorean	Using a limited playlist of the exact same files, rather than just a random selection of all files on your player?
10:26:11	Llorean	Differences in format and bitrate can have significant impacts on battery life as well.
10:26:13	wpyh	No, I'm setting it on random...
10:26:27	wpyh	Well, in that case I'll do the test again
10:26:29	wpyh	:)
10:26:37	Llorean	Try making the conditions as similar as possible
10:26:43	JdGordon	Llorean: hmm.. I tihnk it will be better to remove the %P tag instead of keeping backwards compat.... 1) its not a major change to move the filename, 2) the code to handle %P will cause some problems if we do try to keep it
10:26:48	wpyh	OK...
10:27:06	wpyh	I'll try it again and post the results
10:27:18	Llorean	wpyh: Reset the settings in Rockbox to default, then turn off accessory power. Then use a limited (45-60 minute is generally good) playlist, preferable not on shuffle just repeating
10:27:41	wpyh	hobbs: what player do you have (talking about the high res screen)?
10:27:53	Llorean	JdGordon: Alright. Though I'm not looking forward to a whole new round of "every WPS in the wiki doesn't work!"
10:27:54	Llorean	:-P
10:28:05	wpyh	Llorean: OK. Why such a long playlist?
10:28:27	Llorean	Make sure it fills the buffer.
10:28:31	Llorean	Not as important on the Nano though.
10:29:03	JdGordon	Llorean: yeah, I agree... a script to fix them for this change shouldnt be hard to do though
10:29:11	JdGordon	dinner time
10:29:31	wpyh	OK
10:29:40	Llorean	JdGordon: Maybe you can leave it on the tracker for testing and try to time it with the theme site. Pester them to finish it. :)
10:33:08	wpyh	I've registered at the wiki but I can't edit my own page. Can I get write permission please? :)
10:34:49	wpyh	It's at: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WilliamPoetra
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10:39:45	bluebrother	Bagder: around?
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10:53:52	n1s	wpyh: promise not to spam?
10:54:08	wpyh	OK, I won't spam
10:54:14	wpyh	I don't usually spam anyway
10:54:42	wpyh	I mean I "don't" spam
10:54:43	wpyh	:D
10:54:53	wpyh	make it "I don't spam"
10:54:58	wpyh	just that I like to talk a lot
10:55:04	n1s	ok, should work now
10:55:43	Buschel	wpyh: another thing to make sure when doing battery benchs -> do a restart of rockbox before starting the bench. e.g. do not charge battery within rockbox and simply disconnect the USB-adapter. best would be to charge in emergency disk mode and then do a clean restart.
10:55:52	wpyh	OK, thanks :)
10:56:13	wpyh	Buschel: Actually I did the last measurement by disconnecting the cable after it's full
10:56:20	Buschel	wpyh: reason is that there is a higher power consumption that we do not understand right now.
10:56:23	wpyh	Buschel: what's the reason?
10:56:27	wpyh	Oh
10:57:17	wpyh	Is there a way to check the current power draw? Like in my laptop we can check the current ampere
10:58:00	JdGordon	Llorean: yeah, ill give plenty of warning... I tinhk this, cond viewports and removing margins will all go in at the same time, should cause the least amount of problems
10:59:12	Buschel	wpyh: measuring the power consumption is quite difficult. you'll need to take off the battery, connect the player via USB and have a special cable to measure the current then.
10:59:30	Buschel	wpyh: or you do estimations via runtime measurements.
11:00
11:00:00	*	JdGordon has dual pb's working :)
11:01:21	Buschel	wpyh: btw, when you do multiple battery benchs for coparison -> always use the same files, settings and volume
11:01:49	Buschel	*comparison
11:03:18	Buschel	Seed: you there?
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11:08:55	wpyh	Buschel: sorry, I was editing the wiki and didn't see this window
11:09:49	wpyh	Is there no way to ping the power chip and ask it "How much current are you using now?"
11:12:11	wpyh	I'd take a wild guess about the higher power consumption: when we charge the battery, the power chip goes into an "on AC" mode, which uses more current, then when we stop charging, we didn't tell the chip to go back to "battery mode".
11:12:20	wpyh	That, by the way, is a shot in the dark.
11:14:02	Buschel	wpyh: no, we cannot read something like this out of the pcf. the higher consumption seems to be connected to the internal USB-controller
11:14:53	wpyh	Buschel: the internal USB controller, in that we didn't ask it to go to a low power mode or shut it off?
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11:18:47	Buschel	wpyh: if it would be that easy we would have solved it :o)
11:19:39	*	Buschel should add the clean-restart-information to the battery bench wiki
11:21:41	Buschel	wpyh: btw, what format and bitrate do you use?
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11:22:40	wpyh	Buschel: welll :p
11:22:59	wpyh	For the format, I'm currently using MP3, with bitrates from 128kbps to 320kbps
11:26:28	k4y	i'm interested, realistically, what is the chance of a Zune (2G) port? has there been any real interest there?
11:26:52	Llorean	No.
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11:29:46	wpyh	Llorean: I remember seeing a forum thread about it
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11:30:25	JdGordon	probably plenty of interest.. but not from anyone who can do anything about it
11:31:00	wpyh	Yeah, it's here: http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=6848.0
11:32:58	Llorean	wpyh: He/she asked if there has been any real interest for the second gen Zune. First, that thread is about the original. Second, even considering that, there hasn't been any real concentrated effort that's had any results.
11:33:20	wpyh	Oh, OK...
11:34:27	JdGordon	Llorean: I should copy that ml email to the forums and sticky it yeah?
11:34:48	Llorean	JdGordon: You should send it out to the user mailing list too, and then sticky it in the WPS forum, yeah.
11:35:05	JdGordon	sent to both ml's
11:35:17	JdGordon	I figure this should give plenty of warning
11:35:26	Llorean	Oh, I only got the -dev one so far, maybe just mail lag.
11:36:01	Llorean	I see it on the archive page though, so all is well
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11:38:50	JdGordon	scorche: linuxstb_: hows the theme site coming?
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11:42:25	Llorean	JdGordon: If we're changing the progress bar anyway, one HUGE suggestion. Can we have it be x\|y\|width\|height now, rather than this strange (and hard to remember) height\|leftpos\|rightpos\|toppos (height\|x1\|x2\|y I suppose)
11:43:03	Llorean	I imagine it only never got changed because it was preserving backward compatibility, specifically with WPSes that didn't have all the parts of the %pb tag anyway
11:43:33	JdGordon	haha sure... I didnt even know that was the syntax and assumed it was x,y,width,height :p
11:43:59	Llorean	Nah, the syntax evolved over time as each new feature was added to it.
11:44:06	JdGordon	filename at the start so we can still have everything optional?
11:44:12	JdGordon	or force all params?
11:44:34	JdGordon	although, I guess it could be optional even with the filename at the end
11:44:37	Llorean	That's up to you. I don't mind forcing all params.
11:45:10	Llorean	If you force them, it at least makes people think about what they're doing, and it's not exactly painful to have to type four numbers in.
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11:45:26	JdGordon	yep
11:45:35	Llorean	Though, maybe let height=0 use the current font's height (if possible)?
11:45:37	JdGordon	also, is that the only tag with optional params?
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11:46:25	bluebrother	how about making empty values using sane defaults? Like width being the complete screen?
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11:46:37	Llorean	That makes more sense than 0, I guess
11:47:06	Llorean	So filename\|x\|y\|\|> would give "full width" and "font height"
11:47:36	Llorean	JdGordon: I think it's the only tag with optional bits. The only other cases of optional on the page describe enumerations and conditionals.
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11:48:55	JdGordon	empties are a bit harder to code, but doable
11:49:45	JdGordon	:) Dont even need to fix my warning email, modified tags already has it as x\|y\|width\|h\|f
11:49:57	bluebrother	well, another idea would be to allow percentage values to make themes somewhat portable. But I guess that isn't worth the code ;-)
11:50:16	Llorean	Percentage values wouldn't be any good without viewports also having percentage values
11:50:19	k4y	pity though
11:50:25	k4y	(about the Zune)
11:50:41	*	JdGordon going to kill some time playing audiosurf.. bbl
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11:51:01	Llorean	k4y: Ports happen when the owners of the hardware work on it, primarily. The best thing would be to find strong centers of the Zune community, and see if there are members there with the knowledge or desire to put in the hard hours to get it done.
11:51:47	k4y	Llorean: unfortunately i get the feeling that the strong centres of the Zune community want nothing to do with Rockbox
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11:53:39	k4y	out of interest, not that i have that kind of money at the moment, would donating player hardware to Rockbox expediate any kind of port for that player?
11:53:52	Llorean	The primary need isn't hardware, or money. It's time.
11:54:06	k4y	yeah, i figured that was probably the limiting factor
11:54:33	k4y	unfortunately i don't have the hardware knowledge required to provide some kind of value
11:54:45	Llorean	Porting to a device takes large amounts of time doing tasks that are often quite challenging. For someone to embark on a new port almost necessarily requires a very strong pre-existing interest in the player.
11:55:02	k4y	Llorean: right, hence my previous question about interest
11:55:06	Llorean	Knowledge is something that one can learn, given the aforementioned time.
11:55:18	Llorean	Many people who've done ports have had this be their first experience in that sort of area anyway.
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11:57:12	Llorean	At the very least you could spend some time trying to identify the specific processor and other chips within the 2nd Gen Zune (if it hasn't been done so already) on the off chance that any effort for it might benefit from work being done elsewhere on similar hardware.
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11:58:27	k4y	i read somewhere that the Toshiba Gigabeat S and the Zune have hardware in common (the Zune was manufactured by Toshiba)
11:58:51	k4y	although i'm not sure if that was talking about the second gen Zune or not, i'm also not sure how reliable that information is
12:00
12:00:14	BigBambi	first gen I believe
12:00:32	BigBambi	But the S has broken encryption so we can run code on it, the Zune does not
12:04:02	k4y	yes, i'd imagine that circumventing the Zune's security is probably a fairly tough job (and assumes you know what you're doing)
12:07:41	*	mrkiko thinks the world is very bad, cruel...
12:07:53	n1s	afaik the 2g zune uses a chip labeled "imx32" which implies it's similar to the imx31 in the beast and zune g1
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12:25:01	JdGordon	how are the daily emails for the mailing lists supposed to work? I thought it was one a day? I've got 2 already today
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12:35:20	ortanc	rockbox
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12:52:04	ortanc	rockbox
12:53:21	bluebrother	ortanc: what do you want to tell us?
12:53:32	ortanc	why
12:54:32	Laser87	bluebrother: He already did this in #archlinux - we found out, that he is a fool :-)
12:54:39	Laser87	Hello everybody
12:55:00	BigBambi	yo
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12:55:22	wpyh	ah
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12:55:26	wpyh	that explains
12:55:40	wpyh	so does he say "archlinux, archlinux" on and on on #archlinux?
12:55:50	BigBambi	wpyh: don't add to it :)
12:55:55	BigBambi	let's stay on topic
12:56:21	wpyh	ok2
12:56:23	wpyh	:)
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12:56:35	wpyh	BigBambi: is there any topic? :-\
12:56:44	BigBambi	wpyh: yes, see the topic
12:57:00	BigBambi	This is a support and development channel for Rockbox, nothing else
12:57:57	wpyh	well, when I came here I saw "(13:18:17) The topic for #rockbox is: Please read before speaking: http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/IrcGuidelines \| Please direct offtopic/social chat to #rockbox-community \| http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/DevCon2008 - Updated - see Dev ML and edit the individual pages! \| Rah rah rah! Summer of Code!"
12:58:02	wpyh	OK
12:58:09	ortanc	why
12:58:21	BigBambi	wpyh: right, so the first link that says please read before speaking might help
12:58:43	ortanc	why
12:59:14	JdGordon	Bagder: you round?
13:00
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13:32:48	PaulJam	JdGordon: hi, with the latest conditional viewports patch i get errors during compiling: http://de.pastebin.ca/1035793
13:33:19	JdGordon	arg.. ok
13:33:34	JdGordon	hmm.. looks like i patched the wrong file :/
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13:36:17	JdGordon	Llorean: thanks, thats what I was going to say, but shorter :)
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13:40:35	JdGordon	btw, I'm going to use - for it to automatically use sane values instead of a blank because imo its easier to read
13:46:21	Llorean	I personally don't care, but I think some WPS tags already use nothing. I'm not sure.
13:46:38	JdGordon	does anyone know if parse_list() \0 terminates string items?
13:50:50	JdGordon	oh, they do? hmm...
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14:00
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14:02:41	kugel	Which replay gain tags reads rockbox (vorbis comment in my case)?
14:03:39	kugel	MediaMonkey writes REPLAYGAIN_TRACK_GAIN and REPLAYGAIN_TRACK_PEAK, where the latter has the higher value
14:04:27	obo	it reads both - isn't there a setting to switch between them?
14:04:43	Llorean	PEAK is used for prevent clipping, I believe
14:04:50	obo	well, also album_gain and album_peak
14:05:02	kugel	obo: Possibly, I only use track gain
14:05:35	kugel	Llorean: I've made a quick test wps with %rg, and rockbox seems to apply REPLAYGAIN_TRACK_GAIN
14:05:46	Llorean	Because that's what you're supposed to apply.
14:05:55	Llorean	I don't understand the question.
14:06:47	kugel	MediaMonkey writes REPLAYGAIN_TRACK_GAIN (which has a value e.g. of 0.07) and REPLAYGAIN_TRACK_PEAK (which has a value of 0.524567).
14:06:59	Llorean	And?
14:07:02	kugel	I hardly notice any gain in rockbox
14:07:24	Llorean	Possibly because your song is quite close to the target gain.
14:07:44	kugel	MediaMonkey shows +6.1 in the library
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14:08:10	d34df00d	Hi there!
14:08:16	kugel	my target value is 95dB
14:08:37	kugel	And I can surely say, the files aren't any louder on my e200
14:08:38	d34df00d	All recent builds of rockbox for Ipod video 80 gb misbehave on one song.
14:08:49	d34df00d	The just stop playing and sometimes hang, sometimes not.
14:08:53	d34df00d	I can give link to the song.
14:09:11	Llorean	kugel: 0.07 db is not a lot of added gain, which is I believe the amount that tag adds.
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14:10:14	Llorean	I don't understand what you're asking, kugel. Rockbox adds the amount in the tag, like it's supposed to. If you're disagreeing with Mediamonkey about how much should be added, that's not really something for here.
14:10:19	kugel	Llorean: So, does mediamonkey write wrong tags?
14:10:24	Llorean	How should I know?
14:10:46	Llorean	I don't know how much gain is supposed to be added to your file.
14:10:57	kugel	I set target value to 95dB, but it doesn't appear to be applied in rockbox
14:10:57	Llorean	d34df00d: You should probably file a proper bug report
14:11:07	Llorean	kugel: How do you know it's not applied?
14:11:10	kugel	Llorean: As I said, +6.1
14:11:18	Llorean	You yourself said the tag tells Rockbox to add a very tiny value.
14:11:19	d34df00d	Llorean: uh, thanks.
14:11:31	BigBambi	Well it sounds like the tag isn't being written correctly then, which isn't a RB issue
14:11:54	Llorean	kugel: "+6.1" doesn't mean anything. You've just said it shows that in the library. As a value for what?
14:12:03	Llorean	It's certainly not the value in the tag.
14:12:26	Llorean	But you've raised from 89 to 95. That's +6. Add 0.07 and that rounds to +6.1
14:12:47	Llorean	If your file was close already, the tag might be at 0.07, but the file is at +6.1 from the normal replaygain average of 89
14:13:05	kugel	Llorean: It's the value for "Track volume"
14:13:35	Llorean	Go ask mediamonkey guys about it then.
14:13:38	BigBambi	Either way, surely your issue is with Media Monkey and why the tag says 0.07?
14:13:46	kugel	Llorean: The file is certainly not close. It's way more quite than my other songs
14:13:55	Llorean	Clearly "Track Volume" is a different value than "REPLAYGAIN_TRACK_GAIN" and they would know whether it's supposed to be different or the same.
14:13:57	Llorean	Talk to them.
14:14:37	kugel	So, REPLAYGAIN_TRACK_GAIN should have the value 6.1 in this case?
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14:14:47	JdGordon	linuxstb: you round?
14:14:47	Llorean	Again, I can't know that.
14:14:57	Llorean	I don't know how loud the song actually is, and the results of a proper replaygaining of it.
14:15:03	Llorean	I don't know that "6.1" is right, at all, in any way.
14:15:05	BigBambi	If that is the gain you want, yes
14:15:08	Llorean	Or if it even actually relates to it.
14:15:17	Llorean	You need to talk to the mediamonkey people about it.
14:16:04	kugel	BigBambi: I assume that. I guess media monkey does +6.1 since my target volume is more or less 6 above the 89 default
14:16:11	kugel	Llorean: Thanks, I'm going to do that
14:16:30	PaulJam	btw, i would suggest to use the default target volume (89dB) for replaygain. i think many songs will still clip with ah value of 95dB or be played back at a lower volume when "prevent clipping" is enabled. (sorry for OT)
14:16:40	BigBambi	kugel: I'd imagine, but either way, Rockbox can only apply what is in the tag. The question of what is actually in the tag is down to whatever wrote that tag
14:16:54	Llorean	PaulJam: Out of curiosity, if you knew it was OT why did you say it at all rather than PM him?
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14:17:07	kugel	Sure
14:17:28	PaulJam	Llorean: i didn't think of that :)
14:17:30	kugel	So, I need to find out why media monkey only writes 0.07
14:18:03	*	Llorean sighs.
14:18:38	Llorean	kugel: You need to stop talking about it in here until whatever problem you're having is actually on the Rockbox side.
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14:18:53	Broly	hey
14:19:29	kugel	Llorean: I allready did...I just wanted to make sure the problem is not on the rockbox side (I assumed that allready).
14:19:38	Broly	hello
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14:20:15	Nathan	any one awake right now?
14:20:28	BigBambi	It is mid afternoon, so yep :)
14:20:32	Llorean	Nathan: If you have a specific question, please simply ask it.
14:21:09	Nathan	Anyone awake?
14:21:41	*	gevaerts sees that Nathan is not
14:21:46		Quit Nathan (Client Quit)
14:21:47	BigBambi	Nathan: As, I said, lots of people - it is mid-afternoon in Europe. However, please just ask any question you have
14:21:52	BigBambi	too late
14:22:16	gevaerts	He did ask a question :)
14:22:26	BigBambi	:P
14:23:22	mrkiko	He was having some connection problems
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14:25:27	Nathan_Greene	Any one active?
14:25:28	BigBambi	yes, just ask
14:26:08	Nathan_Greene	I was wondering where so I submit my WPS?
14:26:24	Nathan_Greene	I just Finished my first one.
14:26:36	BigBambi	the WPSGallery page on the wiki would be good (assuming that it doesn't infringe any copyrights etc.)
14:27:31	Nathan_Greene	The WPS confines the the Soap Rules and contains all my own art
14:27:40	BigBambi	In that case, cool
14:28:38	Nathan_Greene	I just need to zip it and I shall have it uploaded in a bit.
14:28:50	Nathan_Greene	Doing one more test run
14:29:46	Nathan_Greene	Made it for Half Life 2 Fans :)
14:30:33	Nathan_Greene	Ah I need write perms as well. Admins please take care of that if you will?
14:30:43	BigBambi	what is your wiki name?
14:31:23	Nathan_Greene	NateGreene would be my wiki name.
14:31:28	BigBambi	close enough
14:31:32	BigBambi	Promise not to spam?
14:31:37	Nathan_Greene	I really need to stop talking like that.
14:31:38	Nathan_Greene	Yes
14:31:55	BigBambi	OK
14:32:12	Nathan_Greene	No need to worry about spam and flaming as such.
14:32:22	BigBambi	as such? I would hope at all
14:32:23	Nathan_Greene	Crap I did it again.
14:33:05	BigBambi	What do you mean by as such?
14:33:16	Nathan_Greene	That was a typo. I meant to type "and".
14:33:24	BigBambi	hehe
14:33:27	BigBambi	OK then :)
14:34:08	Nathan_Greene	Ahhh.... thanks
14:35:04	Nathan_Greene	The perms are set and I can now edit.
14:35:09	BigBambi	yes
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14:40:07	mrkiko	Nathan_Greene: can you read this entence?
14:40:14	mrkiko	sentence
14:40:39	BigBambi	mrkiko: what are you up to?
14:41:34	Nathan_Greene	Yes I can
14:41:55	Nathan_Greene	Yes mrkiko I can read you text
14:42:20	BigBambi	mrkiko: He can clearly see what others type as we have just had a conversation, and you can check the logs to see if you missed anything. Please do not clog the logs with off topicness
14:42:36	mrkiko	Nathan_Greene: ok ok
14:42:58	mrkiko	Nathan_Greene: I wanted to assure you where able to catch our response; you ignored them first.
14:43:08	mrkiko	and I was thinking about a connection problem
14:43:17	BigBambi	mrkiko: Please, don't - I clearly just had a conversation with him
14:43:22	BigBambi	Check the logs first
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14:44:34	Nathan_Greene	mrkiko: I did not reply as I was not at my system.
14:44:41	BigBambi	Everyone, stop now
14:44:52	BigBambi	This is off topic, irrelevant and pointless
14:44:54	*	gevaerts stops
14:45:00	BigBambi	gevaerts: except you :)
14:45:36	Llorean	Reminds me. Has there been any progress at all on the remaining annoyances re USB, or are we waiting for something, or merely hoping for divine inspiration?
14:45:59	BigBambi	Llorean: Are we waiting for someone to investigate the FAT driver on Sansa?
14:46:01	*	JdGordon thinks the progressbars shouldnt be a special case, and should be forced to specify the full line
14:46:20	*	Llorean doesn't like special cases.
14:46:28	gevaerts	Llorean: the latter. I don't know where to look for clues currently
14:46:34	Llorean	Ah, okay
14:46:50	Nathan_Greene	Question for anyone working on the Rock Box project. Can and or will .gif animations be supported for Rock Box?l
14:47:02	gevaerts	And as BigBambi said, the sansa sd driver
14:47:04	JdGordon	probably not
14:47:10	BigBambi	Nathan_Greene: If someone writes a plugin or something for it, could be
14:47:22	Llorean	Nathan_Greene: Can: Yes. Will: Probably not, though someone could always post a patch and try to argue the case.
14:47:26	BigBambi	Nathan_Greene: but I wouldn't hold your breath for a core dev to do so
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14:49:12	PaulJam	Nathan_Greene: if you want that for WPS developement, then animations are already possible with alternating sublines.
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15:07:59	mcuelenaere	JdGordon: where do progress bars get their current progress value from?
15:08:54	JdGordon	the wps...
15:09:07	JdGordon	I tihnk the codec sets a value in the codec interface which the wps reads
15:09:50	mcuelenaere	JdGordon: ah thanks, I interpreted the more-than-1-progressbar thing wrong
15:10:16	mcuelenaere	I thought it could get some custom progress value based on something else then music progress
15:10:23	mcuelenaere	than*
15:10:56	JdGordon	nup
15:11:55	mcuelenaere	ok good, I was just a bit worried about touchscreen support
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15:38:21	Nathan_Greene	http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WpsIpodNano#Pick_Up_That_Can
15:39:08	kugel	Llorean: Didn't like the colored CodecPerformaceComparison table? I found it very helpful
15:39:52	Llorean	kugel: I discussed in in IRC in the logs shortly before I changed it.
15:40:01	Llorean	The numbers you picked were inconsistent and meaningless.
15:40:26	Llorean	They neither coincided with expected performance nor had a consistent interval. They seemed just plucked out of air, and didn't even have even spacing.
15:41:20	Llorean	If you're going to use red->green shades to reflect performance, do it based around some form of testing (red = skips, yellow = realtime but no DSP, green = realtime + full DSP, blue = fast enough to play gameboy games with, or something)
15:41:22	kugel	Llorean: the uneven spacing was there before me
15:41:33	Llorean	No, I meant the intervals of the colors for spacing
15:42:01	Llorean	Range of 100 for the first couple, then ranges of 150 for some reason.
15:43:24	mcuelenaere	JdGordon: in the gui list using a touchscreen: was/is there a reason you're mapping BUTTON_REPEAT on the statusbar to ACTION_STD_CONTEXT?
15:43:46	JdGordon	no, it was pretty arbitrary
15:44:40	Nathan_Greene	I am confused about the topics. But it seems interesting no doubt.
15:44:51	Nathan_Greene	*topic
15:44:52	mcuelenaere	JdGordon: so you're ok with it if I remove it?
15:45:10	kugel	Llorean: Ah, well, I didn't have the intention to make it even. I didn't make it to be scientifically exact, but rather as a general visual help. Also, the amount of available colors is rather low, I had gladly used an evener spacing, but there are not enough colors
15:45:28	kugel	Anyway, I don't see why uneven spacing is bad
15:45:43	Llorean	kugel: Uhm... you can divide up any set of numbers evenly.
15:46:02	Llorean	At least, close to evenly, if the set is large enough
15:46:03	JdGordon	mcuelenaere: AH, yeah, that was before the buttons were faked (the grid), yeah you can remove it
15:46:05	Llorean	And that set was quite large.
15:46:41	Llorean	kugel: Because the colour choices you made suggest that "red is bad" and when "red is bad" that usually means "yellow is the minimum" or possibly even "don't try until green"
15:46:48	Llorean	Like "stop" "slow" and "go"
15:47:27	Llorean	The information was misleading. If they were evenly spaced, you could at least say "no, I just divided the available numbers up among the available colours." Instead you picked and chose, but used colours which seem to have meaning. But they didn't.
15:47:35	gevaerts	So if you want to have a 'general visual help', try to make it one that actually means something
15:48:06	Llorean	There's really only three categories that need highlighted, "too slow to play", "too slow to play with EQ+Crossfeed+Replaygain" and "Fast enough for anything"
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15:48:37	Llorean	And that's going to be slightly different from player to player even within the same processor speed because, for example, the iPod Nano performs generally better than the 5G, etc.
15:48:53	gevaerts	Also be careful with red/green colours
15:48:55	Llorean	But as it is, the colours also weren't very readable for the clorblind.
15:49:03	Llorean	As gevaerts was saying, I suppose. :)
15:49:05	Llorean	colourblind.
15:49:09	*	Llorean manages to miss too many keys.
15:49:31	*	gevaerts thought that Llorean lived in color-land, not in colour-land :)
15:49:41	Llorean	It might be best just to bold ones that are either "fast enough" or "not fast enough" and leave the rest normal
15:50:34	mcuelenaere	JdGordon: I found a better solution: only mapping it on BUTTON_REPEAT\|BUTTON_REL
15:50:49	JdGordon	ok
15:51:16	kugel	Llorean: ok, but you'd agree to colored table generally?
15:52:04	Llorean	kugel: I think many of the colours you chose were problematic. Red/green is no good for the colourblind. Yellow can be hard to read, the purple didn't contrast well with the background on some screens.
15:52:32	Llorean	I'd rather you just perhaps bolded all the ones less than 120%. People who need to know the exact numbers can actually read. People just looking for a general performance line can look for that.
15:52:39	kugel	Llorean: I guess color TV is also a bit challenging for colorblinds, it's still more populare than greyscale tv
15:52:59	gevaerts	Which means ?
15:54:01	Llorean	kugel: You're introducing an actual difficulty for a group of users just to present almost entirely unimportant information?
15:54:13	kugel	I think it would be helpful if they were more available colors, maybe even #acacac style
15:54:37	Llorean	People can read. There are numbers. How exactly is an array of colours helpful?
15:55:27	Llorean	As I've said a few times, the numbers only really boil down to three categories, which hardly needs a lot of colours, and can probably be represented fine without any at all.
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15:56:41	kugel	Llorean: "Llorean: So we could have red, orange (can't use full DSP) and green." -your suggestion sounds good to me, but still difficult for colorblinds
15:57:01	Llorean	Mine was an example of meaningful colours, not a suggestion for what should be done.
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15:57:47	Llorean	Why are colours _necessary_?
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15:58:10	Llorean	What extra information can they convey that cannot be conveyed by italicizing one group, bolding another, and leaving the third plain?
15:58:34	kugel	they are not necessary, but very helpful. For me, this table looks like a mess
15:58:41	kugel	That could work too
15:58:47	Llorean	I've only said it three times now.
15:59:40	Llorean	But the most important thing is that the designations should be meaningful rather than numbers pulled out of air.
15:59:58	kugel	yea, but I can't do it.
16:00
16:00:05	Llorean	You can do it on at least one target.
16:00:40	Llorean	In fact, the page probably needs a table of targets, with a column for "minimum approximate realtime %" and "minimum approximate DSPed %" in it anyway
16:00:45	kugel	What's meant with "playback works, but no dsp"
16:00:51	Llorean	You could start it, then once it's full, we can argue about what way to designate the colours.
16:01:02	Llorean	DSP is features like Equalizer and Replaygain.
16:01:10	Llorean	Basically, any digital alteration of the sound
16:01:22	kugel	also crossfeed?
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16:01:25	gevaerts	kugel: if you want colours, try looking at the page through something like http://colorfilter.wickline.org/, or ask for people to test it
16:01:37	Llorean	kugel: Yes. ANY digital alteration.
16:01:50	kugel	I've noticed, that my m4a files are fine with crossfeed, but when I also enable eq I experience skipping
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16:02:12	Llorean	Because different DSP features require different amounts of CPU time.
16:02:19		Quit gregzx (Nick collision from services.)
16:02:32	Llorean	As I said, the three levels should be "doesn't play realtime" "plays realtime with no DSP" and "Plays realtime with all DSP features enabled"
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16:04:11	kugel	Hmm, I'll see. So, when I get e.g. 250% realtime needed for all dsp features, will that number be roughly the same for all targets?
16:04:20	Llorean	No
16:04:27	Llorean	As I've also said earlier, it'll be different from target to target.
16:04:54	kugel	even different within the same architecture?
16:05:00	Llorean	I explicitly said that.
16:05:09	Llorean	I even cited examples
16:05:31	Llorean	Seriously, should I even be bothering trying to talk to you if you're making it so clear you're not reading?
16:06:44	Llorean	If you're busy, we should talk about this later.
16:08:03	kugel	This might happens since when while I answer the first post (thus looking on the text board and sometimes the keyboard), you make the second post which I miss
16:08:12	kugel	text box*
16:08:43	Llorean	You can still read all of them.
16:08:57	kugel	Yea, but sometimes I don't even notice you add a post
16:09:13	kugel	My fault I guess
16:09:45	kugel	But please don't think I miss those intentionally
16:09:55	Llorean	It makes having a conversation with you about things nearly impossible. It's incredibly frustrating to have to say something three times before you acknowledge it, or to be asked questions I've already very carefully tried to answer.
16:10:26	kugel	Yea, I can imagine
16:11:05	kugel	Llorean: btw, I've read that bold earlier, but didn't came to answer to it
16:11:14	Llorean	But, to simplify everything: It needs testing on nearly all players before there will be meaningful numbers. And until there are meaningful numbers, there's not much point in visually coding it either with colours or bold/italics, since they would merely mislead those who don't know better.
16:12:15	kugel	ok
16:12:23	kugel	I think you are right
16:13:25	kugel	I just didn't intend to give the colors a special meaning like "playback, but now dps". I rather wanted to to say that e.g. green performs better than yellow
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16:13:41	kugel	But it's probably better to actually have a meaning
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16:20:15	Nathan_Greene	I have finished my new theme :)
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16:59:30	fml	Hello. In the last commit to list.c I see: unsigned int prev_line; and then later prev_line = -1; Is it OK?
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17:06:11	saratoga	its casted to signed before comparing it, so i think it should work, seems a bit odd though
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17:11:17	fml	saratoga: as of now it would assign the max int value. But it's a bit of hack IMHO. Why not write it explicitly?
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17:18:37	Keith	umm is this where i can asked for help about regarding ipodpatcher
17:19:04	Keith	hello anyone here
17:22:44	PaulJam	just ask
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17:25:07	DuoMaxwell	hey everyone....quick question
17:25:17	DuoMaxwell	i have rockbox installed on my sansa e280 and lately teh library is very slow
17:25:29	DuoMaxwell	especially while playing a song
17:25:41	DuoMaxwell	ive tried doing initialize now and update now
17:25:46	DuoMaxwell	and set load to ram to yes
17:25:53	Keith	oh ok here goes quick and easy is ipod classic supported?
17:25:56	Keith	80Gb
17:26:29	saratoga	Keith: seen the front page?
17:27:08	Keith	yep.. saw something like ipd 80gb video.. my question is is the one? or is classic different coz i dont see classic
17:27:58	Keith	ohh sorry
17:28:01	Keith	lol i see it
17:28:17	DuoMaxwell	saratoga: any chance you know anything regarding my ailment?
17:28:37	saratoga	no
17:28:38	Keith	daym my bad no classic.. oh well tnks sticking to my e280 then
17:30:13	PaulJam	DuoMaxwell: have you rebooted after enabling load to ram?
17:30:29	DuoMaxwell	yes
17:30:42	fml	... so at least a comment that it's intentional is needed (about prev_line = -1)
17:31:04	DuoMaxwell	is there any way to delete the library manually?
17:31:23	DuoMaxwell	well, obviously there is
17:31:26	DuoMaxwell	ill go check on the locations
17:32:28	saratoga	Buschel: I remember you saying you changed one of the debug screens to print the long term average clock rate in rockbox
17:32:29	PaulJam	DuoMaxwell: you could delete all *.tcd files in the .rockbox directory and then initialize the database again.
17:32:34	saratoga	how did you do that?
17:35:05	Keith	so umm.. there is no way to get rockbox on my classic 80gb right? you guys have plans for that one?
17:35:40	DuoMaxwell	check the forums
17:35:45	DuoMaxwell	dont be lazy
17:36:20	Keith	mehh.. ive been on the site for 2 weeks now man give me a break.. just want a yes or a no
17:36:22	Keith	anyway tnks
17:37:10	DuoMaxwell	i dont think any ports to the ipod classic are in the works
17:39:07	DuoMaxwell	btw thanks PaulJam
17:39:24	PaulJam	DuoMaxwell: did it help?
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18:10:25	DuoMaxwell	PaulJam: Yeah it fixed it
18:10:27	DuoMaxwell	thanks
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18:15:00	saratoga	wow actually managed to use the mailing list without sending a garbled message
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18:17:20	n1s	saratoga: re: that mail, could you make a quick test_codec run with a small change on the e200?
18:18:48	saratoga	n1s: In a little while i can
18:18:49	n1s	libmad is built with -O2 by default but -O for ipods because iirc it was faster and the test in the makefile is for ipods only while I suspect it should be for all pp targets.
18:19:25	saratoga	how long ago was that tested?
18:19:38	saratoga	we've since replaced a lot of the codec with assembly . . .
18:19:39	n1s	before the sansa port even existed
18:20:01	saratoga	should probably be retested on all targets to make sure thats still right
18:20:03	n1s	yes, but it is worthwile to test anyway imho
18:20:38	saratoga	i will test that today when i get my sansa
18:20:47	n1s	ok, great
18:20:48	saratoga	-O2 being slower is odd though
18:21:00	saratoga	i wish we could profile ARM, I'd love to know why that happens
18:21:18	n1s	not really, it often creates much larger code which means worse cache performance
18:21:43	saratoga	that shouldn't be a big deal on PP, its got fast cache and fast memory
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18:21:59	saratoga	and if it is, it could be fixed using IRAM if we knew the exact problem
18:22:15	saratoga	something is definately up with MAD
18:22:31	saratoga	i can't figure out why its so slow
18:22:47	n1s	yeah, it's over 400% realtime on coldfire...
18:23:43	saratoga	its fast on coldfire because of the fast multiplier on the emac, but theres no reason it should be so slow on arm
18:24:51	saratoga	it should be at least as fast as vorbis, they've both had their transforms rewritten in assembly, both codecs are regarded as algorithmically efficient, and filterbank in mad should be much faster then the imdct in vorbis
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18:41:25	Buschel	saratoga: btw, wouldn't it be more convenient to use MHz instead of % when talking about the codec efficiency? this would take into account the different boosted clocks of the different targets?
18:43:48	Buschel	furthermore it will then be obvious that it makes sense to reduce the unboosted clock for codecs like mpc/flac which run at realtime far below the current unboosted clock
18:45:02	Buschel	maybe i'll change the output of test_codec to display both results "x MHz (y %)"
18:50:36	bluebrother	Buschel: as the CPU is running at two different frequencies only a MHz display would be rather strange to me
18:51:18	bluebrother	it doesn't give me an idea about the performance of the codec itself but only some calculated value where it _would_ run at ... 100% or so
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19:13:11	n1s	imho a % value gives a better picture of the performance as you know 200% is 2x realtime but what is 40MHz on cpu x?
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19:18:00	Buschel	n1s/bluebrother: i would keep the percentage, but would add the MHz. the MHz is the "stronger" result as codecs are in general measured in MHz for realtime decoding. we can easily compare to other decoder manufacturers
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19:18:35	saratoga	Buschel: I'm still interested in whatever screen you modified to get the actual average clock speed (including DSP and UI overhead)
19:18:40	bluebrother	how should rbutil treat manufacturers names? Currently we have "iHP-100" but "Ipod"
19:18:53	saratoga	my 250% realtime estimate in the email is pretty far off now that i think about it
19:19:07	saratoga	probably closer to 280 or 300%, but i'd love to measure it
19:19:38	n1s	bluebrother: I would go with the same style as the manual uses (capitalization like regular names)
19:20:35	bluebrother	n1s: hmm, I think the manual itself isn't consistent too −− it's "Iriver iHP100" etc.
19:20:48	bluebrother	but I'll go with "Ipod" for now.
19:21:07	n1s	ah, maybe modelnames aren't covered...
19:21:18	bluebrother	possible.
19:21:26	n1s	consistency is nice but tedious :(
19:21:50	bluebrother	indeed. rbutil isn't quite good with that in regards of capitalization :(
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19:29:50	Buschel	saratoga: i simplay use the audio thread debug screen. two measurements: 1st. 5 screen updates/2, 2nd. 10s per screen update. from this you can calculate the UI and the decoding+playback
19:30:10	Buschel	*simply
19:30:26	saratoga	do you have a patch handy for that?
19:31:10	Buschel	saratoga: no (not on my dev-pc), but it's quite simple: the screen already shows the MHz.
19:33:29	Buschel	saratoga: plus change "get_action(CONTEXT_STD, HZ/5)" to "..., HZ*10)" in function debug_buffering_thread()
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19:35:23	Buschel	saratoga: the decoder's need itself can be calculated from the test_codec-results
19:35:51	saratoga	but not hte overhead from everything else right?
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19:37:41	saratoga	is -O the same as -O1 in gcc?
19:37:50	Buschel	that's the diff between decoder+playback (via debug menu) -decoder (test_codec)
19:37:59	n1s	saratoga: yes
19:38:04		Quit bluebrother ("bbl")
19:38:29	saratoga	i'm going to rerun the test to be sure, but it looks like O2 is slightly faster on the Sansa
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19:41:49	J-23	Hi!
19:42:41	saratoga	yeah O2 is faster (204% vs. 201%)
19:42:51	saratoga	anyone object if I just remove that from the makefile entirely?
19:43:07	saratoga	or does it need to be verified on PP5002 first?
19:43:59	J-23	how should I input advanced build flags in Rockbox configure script?
19:44:12	J-23	<FLAG><FLAG><FLAG>?
19:44:38	J-23	I've tried with "DLP" flags, but when compiling I received http://pastebin.com/d80c0ac1
19:44:47	n1s	saratoga: i think that would be good, yes
19:45:16	J-23	there isn't any text like <<<<<< in /build/Makefile or /tools/Makefile
19:45:25	saratoga	i'll just change the check to be for "IPOD_3G" instead of "IPOD"
19:45:55		Quit EspeonEefi ("さよなら")
19:47:11	J-23	should I don't use some flags from D, L and P?
19:49:28	gevaerts	J-23: is your checkout clean ? '<<<<<<' could come from a bad merge
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19:50:34	gevaerts	J-23: from what I see, you have to enter one flag at a time, pressing enter in between
19:50:44	gevaerts	Then an empty line to end
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19:51:23	J-23	what's logf() function? (what it does?)
19:51:51	saratoga	writes stuff to a text file for debugging
19:52:10	saratoga	well mp3 on the ipods is now 2% faster, so i guess thats something
19:52:15	J-23	ok, profile.c file is buggy, I'll try Normal build
19:52:18	bertrik	\o/
19:52:36	gevaerts	2% is not huge, but it's certainly not nothing either
19:53:47	J-23	I've tried make clean, removing all files and dirs from /build, svn cleanup and svn update
19:53:54	J-23	but I still receive that error
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19:54:09	gevaerts	Try 'svn stat' to see if it finds anything fishy
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19:54:43	J-23	svn stat output is http://pastebin.com/d12f1ca88
19:55:26	PaulJam	there are conflicts in apps/plugins/SUBDIRS
19:55:57		Quit n1s (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
19:56:05	J-23	ok
19:56:10	J-23	I changed <<<<<<<.mine to mine
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19:56:30	J-23	hmm, no such directory - stop
19:57:46	J-23	ok, I've removed SUBDIRS file and downloaded it from SVN repo.
19:58:01	J-23	what's profiling function?
20:00
20:00:03	PaulJam	maybe http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/SourceProfiling
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20:53:43	AcornAcorn	I just tried to use my iriver h300 and it seems like the battery is dead. Is it completely impossible to use rockbox with the player powered from the mains?
20:55:30	AcornAcorn	Or is there no way of getting the player to boot into rockbox when the player powers on by being triggered by the mains being plugged it?
20:55:31	AcornAcorn	*in
20:55:49	n1s	AcornAcorn: you need to have a working battery even if you use it with the charger plugged in
20:56:24	AcornAcorn	:(
20:56:48	AcornAcorn	seems to be impossible to get reliable batteries, my last one ballooned, now this one just gives up the ghost
20:57:53	AcornAcorn	i wonder if you could replace the battery with some external AA batteries
20:58:18	kinsm	Can someone give me a rundown of how I should restart my gigabeats after copying over rockbox? Whenever I get rockbox to run the gigabeat just looks for a firmware update next time I restart it.
20:58:28	kinsm	its almost like rockbox just isnt sticking
20:59:18	gevaerts	AcornAcorn: some people seem to have a good luck with replacement h100 or h300 batteries, so there probably are good brands around
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20:59:54	*	gevaerts doesn't remember what brand or who those people are unfortunately
21:00
21:00:00	AcornAcorn	it's a shame I can't just have it plugged into the charger and run rockbox
21:00:22		Quit webguest16 (Client Quit)
21:00:36	AcornAcorn	I haven't kept track of rockbox lately, is there any more progress on usb host for the h300?
21:02:56	bluebrother	no. Only usb slave for PP devices.
21:03:01	n1s	AcornAcorn: I bought a CameronSino battery for my h320 and it's been working nicely for a couple of weeks now
21:03:35		Quit bertrik (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:03:36	AcornAcorn	n1s: that's what I've got. I should probably take a look inside my player and make sure it hasn't leaked
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21:03:59	AcornAcorn	and maybe check it with a voltmeter
21:05:44		Quit davina (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
21:05:51	petur	I have to admit that after a year of intense use, my CameronSino battery doesn't last as long as it used to... Maybe they have a large stock of batteries, and age is what kills them :(
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21:07:10	LambdaCalculus37	Hey guys... wee bit of an oddity here with my cross compiler environment.
21:07:35	n1s	petur: yeah, i don't think they would produce new batteries for players that have been discontinued for several years...
21:07:43		Join n17ikh [0] (n=n17ikh@c-76-23-106-132.hsd1.sc.comcast.net)
21:08:10	LambdaCalculus37	The configure script is complaining that sh-elf-gcc and sh-elf-ld are not in my $PATH, but I can confirm that I indeed listed /usr/local/sh-elf/bin in my $PATH. Any ideas?
21:08:36	LambdaCalculus37	And I had recently (about half and hour ago, to be exact) re-ran rockboxdev.sh.
21:08:58	bluebrother	LambdaCalculus37: does "which sh-elf-gcc" find the binary?
21:09:07	LambdaCalculus37	Let me check.
21:09:30	LambdaCalculus37	Nope.
21:09:36	LambdaCalculus37	That's odd...
21:10:15	n1s	is /usr/local/sh-elf/bin included if you do a "echo $PATH" ?
21:10:38	LambdaCalculus37	n1s: Yeah, like I said before, I confirmed it was myself.
21:10:58	n1s	so are the files in there then?
21:11:09	bluebrother	well, looks like it isn't in the PATH. How did you put it in the path?
21:11:09	LambdaCalculus37	Yeah.
21:11:30	LambdaCalculus37	bluebrother: I added it to my .bashrc file.
21:11:58	n1s	LambdaCalculus37: my point was to try echo $PATH in the terminal to see if it was listed there
21:12:11	n1s	which wasn't clear to me if you have done or not
21:12:16	bluebrother	try sourcing that file manually: .
21:12:19	LambdaCalculus37	n1s: I have done so.
21:12:28	bluebrother	dang, enter came too early: . ~/.bashrc
21:12:33	LambdaCalculus37	I added the following line to my .bashrc: "export PATH=$PATH:/usr/local/arm-elf/bin:/usr/local/m68k-elf/bin:usr/local/sh-elf/bin"
21:12:57	bluebrother	LambdaCalculus37: there's a / missing in the SH part
21:12:59	n1s	missing slash
21:13:03	n1s	meh
21:13:26	*	LambdaCalculus37 smacks his forehead
21:13:31	LambdaCalculus37	D'oh! :P
21:13:39	LambdaCalculus37	I feel silly now. :)
21:13:46	*	LambdaCalculus37 fixes his .bashrc
21:14:30	n1s	i did a similar thing when building a crosscompiler myself, a typo in the prefix and it ended up in another dir where i couldn't find it :)
21:15:16	LambdaCalculus37	Yay, now I can compile for the Archos JBR!
21:15:32	LambdaCalculus37	n1s, bluebrother: Thanks!
21:15:53	LambdaCalculus37	kinsm: Need help getting Rockbox to run on your Gigabeat S?
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21:17:05	bluebrother	hehe, funny "bug" in rbutil: "Starting bootloader uninstallation ... unsupported install method" ;-)
21:17:47	kinsm	I sure do heh
21:18:06	LambdaCalculus37	kinsm: Did you install the patched nk.bin to your S?
21:18:25	LambdaCalculus37	And compile a build and tar it?
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21:18:50	kinsm	I havent compiled anything but the sendfirm
21:19:14	kinsm	but earlier today I had rockbox running just fine until I restarted the player
21:19:30	LambdaCalculus37	What were you trying to do?
21:20:15	kinsm	I just powered it off with the on/off button
21:20:29	kinsm	and it boots to some kind of firmware recovery
21:21:06	kinsm	but I can resend the nk.bin and it will boot to rb just fine
21:21:34	LambdaCalculus37	When was the last time you rolled a bootloader?
21:22:20	kinsm	I dont know what you mean
21:22:39	kinsm	I just snagged my nk.bin from a .zip on the install page on the wiki
21:23:00	kinsm	that came with a bootloader.bin that I never did anything with
21:23:23	*	kinsm is in over his head
21:23:27	LambdaCalculus37	From here? http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/GigabeatSInstallation
21:23:31	kinsm	yeah
21:24:04		Quit bertrik (Remote closed the connection)
21:24:05	kinsm	right before I started talking to you I was working on setting up the envir to compile everything on my own
21:25:07	LambdaCalculus37	Ahhh, wait wait wait! I think I know what you may be talking about!
21:25:29	LambdaCalculus37	Are you taking the single-boot version of the bootloader? The one that completely removes the original firmware?
21:25:38	kinsm	yeah
21:25:52	*	LambdaCalculus37 claps his hands
21:26:01	LambdaCalculus37	Bingo! There we go!
21:26:17	kinsm	from reading yesterdays irc log it seems to me like you guys may have the dualboot working
21:26:36	LambdaCalculus37	Correctamundo! Dual booting DOES work!
21:26:47	LambdaCalculus37	But, single booting isn't recommended for now!
21:26:59	LambdaCalculus37	Sooooo... you want to roll a dual-booting bootloader!
21:27:50	kinsm	Thats using the mknkboot correct?
21:28:04	LambdaCalculus37	That means, you need to get the hacked Gigabeat V updater, open it up, and borrow its nk.bin file, which you then patch with a compiled nk.bin.
21:28:32	LambdaCalculus37	You use mknkboot to combine the two files, and presto! Dual booting!
21:28:44	kinsm	alright sounds good
21:28:53	LambdaCalculus37	Then use sendfirm to send it to your Gigabeat, and sit back and enjoy the fun!
21:28:58	kinsm	I was getting real close to doing that too
21:29:07		Quit moos (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
21:29:11	kinsm	Thanks for the help
21:29:19	LambdaCalculus37	Any time!
21:30:22	LambdaCalculus37	Oh yes!
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21:31:00	LambdaCalculus37	Don't forget that we have a bootloader USB mode for the S now.
21:31:14	LambdaCalculus37	So whenever you want to update, you can use that.
21:31:34	kinsm	I remember reading that somewhere on the wiki heh
21:31:36	*	amiconn really wonders about saratoga's commit
21:32:29	amiconn	He changed libmad to compile with -O2 except ipod G3 - but the G1 and G2 are PP5002 as well
21:33:03	LambdaCalculus37	amiconn: You could ask him when he comes in, I guess.
21:33:16	amiconn	Either should all ipods use -O2, or PP5002 should continue to use -O. The condition matches neither atm
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21:33:53	LambdaCalculus37	Speak of the devil...
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21:33:55	Buschel	amiconn: you've got a PP5002-target, right?
21:33:59	amiconn	yes
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21:34:08	amiconn	Both a G1 and a G2
21:34:15	Buschel	amiconn: so you could check the -O vs. -O2 option?
21:34:23	amiconn	(and a spare G2 without hdd)
21:34:23	bluebrother	domonoky: welcome back :)
21:34:27	saratoga	sorry, forgot there was now rockbox on the 1 and 2 gen ipods
21:34:31	*	LambdaCalculus37 has to run
21:34:31	domonoky	-)
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21:34:41	amiconn	saratoga: Now? It's 10 months...
21:34:43	bluebrother	am I correct that ipodpatcher checks the downloaded .ipod file before installing it?
21:34:48	saratoga	my intention to was to leave PP5002 alone until someone got a chance to check it
21:41:05	domonoky	bluebrother: ipodpatcher does a few checks on the downloaded bootloader file, but i dont know how much checks are there..
21:43:07	bluebrother	domonoky: well, I'll leave that out for now −− but maybe we should think about checking the downloaded file first. If ipodpatcher does enough it's fine ;-)
21:43:18	bluebrother	same applies to sansapatcher of course.
21:43:51	*	domonoky just checked the source of ipodpatcher, and there is a checksum check on the bootloader file, so it should be enough..
21:46:09	domonoky	sansapatcher seems to do less checks,i can only spot a header check for the bootloader file in the sansapatcher..
21:49:39	kugel	Regarding replay gain. it does decrease battery life in when activated right?
21:50:03	kugel	If I have that enabled in rockbox, but the file doesn't have tags (so that no replay gain happens), will it still use more cpu?
21:50:11	amiconn	Why should it?
21:51:10	amiconn	Btw, there is a way o find out for sure: perform runtime tests
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21:51:35	kugel	the setting is enabled. I'm not sure, that's why I'm asking
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21:55:18	kugel	amiconn: I observed the the buffering thread screen a bit, it wasn't clear, since I don't have the same file with and without gain in the tags. Anyway, asking here is faster than testing :p
21:55:43	*	amiconn wouldn't know
21:56:01	amiconn	I wouldn't expect replaygain to influence runtime though
22:00
22:00:39	n1s	it adds a small amount of cpu usage but not much at all, other dsp use far more cpu
22:01:02	*	amiconn wonders how saratoga got 2% speedup on ipod
22:01:31		Quit Horscht ("We don't make mistakes, we just have happy little accidents")
22:02:09	kugel	Thanks for clarification
22:03:08	amiconn	My measurements on mini G2 show about 0.7% speedup (test1: 199.9->201.3% realtime), resp. 0.1% (test2: 218.8->219.0% realtime)
22:03:41	n1s	amiconn: maybe different bitrate or something?
22:03:43	amiconn	PP5002 does in fact profit more from -O2 (about 0.8% speedup in both cases)
22:04:29	amiconn	n1s: Those test tracks are vastly varying in bitrate. test1 is vbr >200kbps, test2 is 112kbps cbr
22:05:36		Quit linuxstb_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:05:45	n1s	amiconn: ah, maybe he meant percentage units (or whatever they are called) when the absolute difference in % is used
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22:07:13	n1s	anyway, it seems like a good idea to compile libmad with O2 for all targets then
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22:08:00	amiconn	See build.rockbox.org ...
22:08:24	n1s	right :)
22:12:03	saratoga	amiconn: I used the 192k test track on the codec performance page on a PP5024
22:12:19	saratoga	runtime increased from 200 to 204%
22:12:28	saratoga	err, decode rate increased
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22:18:03	amiconn	Interesting...
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22:19:49	markun	does anyone know of a tool to dump embedded bitmap fonts from a ttf font?
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22:34:45	DuoMaxwell	im trying to play a video in rockbox with mpegplayer but half the video is offscreen
22:34:57	DuoMaxwell	i need to convert the video to 220x176 dont i?
22:35:52	markun	DuoMaxwell: yes, you will need to convert it
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22:36:09	markun	but the size depends on your screen size and the aspect ratio of the original video
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22:55:50	DuoMaxwell	markun: it was already an mpeg
22:55:52	DuoMaxwell	but it was huge
22:56:00	DuoMaxwell	i have the sansa e280...which is 220x176
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23:30:25	jhMikeS	gevaerts: what indicates in the USB driver that the 500mA request was accepted?
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23:36:32	kinsm	Could anyone tell me what file isnt in order when I get "File not found" in the gigabeats bootloader?
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23:37:19	kinsm	Im not sure if that a general error or there is a certian file its looking for but having a problem with (like rockbox.gigabeat)
23:38:01	markun	kinsm: I would expect it's rockbox.gigabeat
23:38:20	markun	where is it located on your player?
23:38:22		Quit sarixe ("(EE) Failed to load "quit" module")
23:38:31	BigBambi	kinsm: that is a know periodic problem
23:38:49	markun	BigBambi: I'll let you do the talking then :)
23:38:53	BigBambi	For some reason the bootloader doesn't find rockbox.gigabeat even though it is in the correct place
23:39:02	BigBambi	markun: hehe :)
23:39:07	kinsm	is there anything that I can do about it?
23:39:18	jhMikeS	BigBambi: but there's a way to stop it...though I'm not clear about exactly what
23:39:24	BigBambi	kinsm: people in the past have fixed it by restoring the OF, then reinstalling the bootloader
23:39:39	BigBambi	kinsm: but I don't know why
23:39:49	BigBambi	jhMikeS: yeah, its a weird one isn't it
23:39:49	kinsm	well Ill give that a try
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23:40:32	BigBambi	kinsm: once you have a 'working' bootloader installed, there don't seem to be any more problems - you can update the build
23:41:18	BigBambi	kinsm: the weird thing is, it isn't even necessarily directly related to the bootloader build - I and another have used the exact same bootloader, it worked fine for me and he had the issues
23:41:58	kinsm	hrmm thats odd
23:42:05	BigBambi	kinsm: however, having said all that, it might be an idea first to do as markun says and check that rockbox.gigabeat is in the right place - /.rockbox/rockbox.gigabeat
23:42:47	kinsm	yeah its there, I even replaced it a couple times thinking that it was the culprit
23:42:48	BigBambi	kinsm: It is really odd - some people have never had it (me included), others have had it and a restore then reinstall worked, ....
23:44:27	kinsm	how do I boot to the windows firmware once I have the bootloader properly installed?
23:44:34	BigBambi	turn hold on
23:44:40	kinsm	not a whole lot of documentation flying around heh
23:44:45	kinsm	alright thanks
23:44:48	BigBambi	the port isn't ready yet
23:45:12	kinsm	true
23:45:16	*	kinsm is antsy
23:45:16	BigBambi	it is pretty much for devs at this point - install on your own back
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23:47:01	kinsm	ok everything is working after installing from the OF again
23:47:06	BigBambi	cool
23:47:38	kinsm	great work on the port so far, ive been waiting awhile
23:50:10		Quit PaulJam_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:50:48	n1s	kinsm: now get hacking! :)
23:50:53		Quit amaldo (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
23:51:12	kinsm	heh if I knew what I was doing I would love to help you guys
23:54:49		Quit n1s ()
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23:58:32	secleinteer	so, any word on work on the port for the creative zen? ;/

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