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#rockbox log for 2008-07-03

00:00:47austriancoderpreglow: I dont know too... what kind of benefit will give us option 2? Do we need to know wich sample rate was set?
00:00:56pixelmaunpaidbill: out of curiousity - why did you think it was wrong? Or was it just hoping?
00:01:08StroggErf... wtf. I've got the stock itunes firmware on here.
00:02:01 Join CyBergRind|w [0] (n=cbr@
00:02:06Strogghrmm.. can't load rockbox.ipod
00:02:27 Join xqtftqx [0] (i=40e9e3d2@gateway/web/ajax/
00:02:42xqtftqxGuys, HELP! can somebody send me a dual boot gigabeat s loader?
00:02:54xqtftqxIve lost mine and my gigabeat wants to update
00:03:11xqtftqxand im unable to make one myself, the dual boot i make only loads orginal firmware
00:04:13preglowaustriancoder: for playback, i don't think so. for recording, yes
00:04:36preglowaustriancoder: so it might make sense to with option 1, the same code is needed anyway, it'll just be moved to a different place
00:05:28xqtftqxand nobody can help..
00:05:44preglowi don't do gigabeat, sorry
00:06:02 Join bertrik [0] (
00:06:09preglowanyone here using os x for rockbox development, btw?
00:06:22xqtftqxDang, i need a S loader, realy bad, my gigabeats not booting rockbox. wants to upgrade firmware
00:06:44preglowwell, can't gelp you. did you see if there is one in the wiki?
00:06:58xqtftqxthats singleboot
00:07:07xqtftqxi need dual for charging
00:07:36preglowthen i have no idea
00:07:40Lloreanxqtftqx: You could try learning how to properly make the dual boot one. it looks like there are instructions.
00:07:52xqtftqxi dont know why but it doesnt work for me
00:07:57xqtftqxit only loads orginal firmware
00:08:11xqtftqxorginal: 12 mb rockbox: 80 mb dual: 12 mb
00:09:05StroggHrmmm.. is the rockbox.ipod supposed to go in the / of the drive or in .rockbox?
00:09:18preglowStrogg: both, but .rockbox is recommended
00:09:35StroggHrmmm ok.. maybe that's what went wrong
00:09:46*Strogg sync's and reboots the pod
00:10:50Strogghrmm damn.
00:11:21LloreanStrogg: You should just be doing make, make zip, then unzip the zip to your player.
00:11:23StroggCan anyone tell me if 38A7EF0 is a bad checksum or is that device dependent? I've got an ipod colour photo.
00:11:47StroggLlorean: that's what I had, though I'm updating from a really old version.. about 2 years, maybe.
00:11:57LloreanStrogg: Did you update your bootloader too?
00:12:13LloreanFirstly, why are you compiling yourself?
00:12:18xqtftqxStrogg are you in windows?
00:12:19StroggLlorean: Or do I have to use a bootloader that came with the compiled version?
00:12:20LloreanHave you tried simply doing a full install using the util?
00:12:26Stroggxqtftqx: debian testing.
00:12:41StroggLlorean: I applied a patch to add a plugin.. the SGF viewer
00:12:49LloreanWell, try it the official way.
00:12:55LloreanTo see if everything's working properly.
00:12:55 Join amiconn [50] (n=jens@rockbox/developer/amiconn)
00:12:59Stroggthe patch applied cleanly and it built ok as well
00:13:06LloreanI didn't ask that.
00:13:14StroggLlorean: from a release or from clean SVN?
00:13:22LloreanUsing the utility.
00:13:30Llorean"The official way" as in "as described in the manual"
00:16:09 Quit davina (Remote closed the connection)
00:16:25xqtftqxguys is sendfirm.c the compiled version?
00:16:32xqtftqxin utils
00:16:48 Quit jhulst (Remote closed the connection)
00:16:54 Join Zarggg [0] (
00:18:39StroggOk.. I just installed the bootloader again via ipodpatcher, and it's still the same error..
00:19:23bertrikxqtftqx: no, any .c file is source code
00:19:34StroggHrmm the patcher detects it as an ipod video though.. which is odd.. lemme try compiling my image as that
00:19:51xqtftqxGrrr!!!! Can somebody please send me a dual boot
00:20:00 Join jhulst [0] (n=jhulst@unaffiliated/jhulst)
00:20:12 Quit [CBR]Unspoken|w (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:20:16xqtftqxi get permission denied when ever trying to do sometihng
00:20:47austriancoderpreglow: enum SampleRate vs. int frequency
00:20:54LloreanStrogg: I didn't recommend doing that. Please, just try letting RBUtil install both the bootloader and the build.
00:21:24 Quit Zagor (Remote closed the connection)
00:21:25xqtftqxanybody know a way to skip the firmware update?
00:21:26LloreanThen you can verify everything's working at least, and have a starting point.
00:21:31 Quit xqtftqx (" ajax IRC Client")
00:21:32StroggIs not the page I'm supposed to be going by?
00:21:40LloreanStrogg: As I said, the *manual*
00:21:43 Join sarixe [0] (
00:21:48LloreanSee the link on the left side of the site that says "Manual" on every page?
00:22:10preglowaustriancoder: i answered that after you asked last
00:22:19StroggLlorean: eh.. sorry. I was going from the wiki.
00:22:34LloreanStrogg: The manual is the only official installation instructions
00:23:19amiconnaustriancoder: Btw, while playback sticks to 44.1kHz atm, some plugins do set different sample rates (e.g. midiplay)
00:24:34 Join xqtftqx [0] (i=40e9e3d2@gateway/web/ajax/
00:24:43xqtftqxBack, still doesnt work
00:24:48xqtftqx:( help
00:25:16Lloreanxqtftqx: .c files are source, not compiled...
00:25:20 Join RoC_MasterMind [0] (
00:25:45xqtftqxi know, i need a dual boot version of the S loader
00:27:37LloreanThere's not a "dual boot version of the s loader"
00:27:45LloreanYou take an S bootloader, and an S original firmware, and merge them.
00:27:52LloreanThen you have an S firmware with attached bootloader.
00:27:59LloreanInstead of just having a bootloader.
00:31:38StroggHrmm. Ok, I mounted my ipod and ran rbutilqt.. it detects my ipod as an ipod colour. But when I click Complete install, the bootloader install fails.. in my console, stdout has a "[ERR] Model name in input file (ipco) doesn't match ipod model (ipvd)"
00:32:05LloreanStrogg: Delete the .rockbox folder from it, then attempt the auto-detect again.
00:32:43LloreanThe fact that you've got a colour build on it is probably confusing things. It's pretty much certain you've got a video then.
00:32:56StroggAha. there we go. It just detected as a 5th gen now.
00:33:22StroggOk cool. that just worked.
00:34:08*Strogg tries rebuilding as a 5thgen now
00:34:57Stroggby the way.. is make clean supposed to erase the apps dir?
00:36:04PaulJamwhere do you build? in the root of the source tree? you should make a separate build dir.
00:41:10 Join Genre9mp3 [0] (n=yngwiejo@rockbox/contributor/Genre9mp3)
00:47:31 Quit Lambdumb (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:50:20xqtftqxI need a dual boot Gigabeat S loader compiled
00:51:09markunxqtftqx: I think you will have a better chance if you wait till it's light again in europe
00:51:27 Quit Thundercloud (Remote closed the connection)
00:51:56xqtftqxAwww, i need it tonight to listen to music
00:52:21amiconnxqtftqx: Re-read what Llorean told you
00:52:59xqtftqxIt does work for me
00:53:34 Join dude187 [0] (
00:54:07xqtftqxLooks like im going to digg though the logs for the one somebody gave me before
00:55:38 Join Seed [0] (
01:00:09StroggYar! it works :)
01:00:34 Quit ender` (" Good programmers treat Microsoft products as damage and route around them.")
01:01:39dionoeaxqtftqx: dig takes only one g
01:01:50dionoeaand good night.
01:02:01dionoeaToo much web 2.0 :)
01:02:42xqtftqxdang, i found the link to the nk.bin
01:02:47xqtftqxsadly, 404
01:03:20Lloreanxqtftqx: Seriously, it works for everyone else. You should just read the instructions more carefully, and take your time.
01:03:24xqtftqxi dont know why
01:03:28xqtftqxi get the orginal nk.bin
01:03:33xqtftqxand i get the rockbox bootloader
01:03:37xqtftqxand it doesnt work
01:03:46xqtftqxit will only load orginal firmware if hold switch on
01:04:20LloreanUhm, there's more to it than just having the two files...
01:04:24LloreanHave you really read the instructions?
01:04:31xqtftqxMany times
01:04:51xqtftqxwhat else do i have to do?
01:04:57***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
01:05:22LloreanMerge them with mknkboot?
01:05:24LloreanAs the instructions say?
01:05:32xqtftqxi did that
01:05:45xqtftqxmknkboot nk_orginal.bin nk_rockbox.bin nk.bin
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01:06:36 Join webguest98 [0] (n=4252095c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
01:06:41LloreanAnd are you uploading with sendfirm or using the windows method?
01:06:52xqtftqxeither or
01:06:56xqtftqxtried both
01:07:00xqtftqxi get a 12 mb file
01:07:05LloreanDid you compile your own mknkboot?
01:07:09 Quit bertrik ("bye")
01:07:11xqtftqxUh no
01:07:26LloreanI'm kinda not believing you used sendfirm since you didn't even know the .c wasn't the executable, by the way.
01:07:42xqtftqxi havent tried sendfirm
01:07:47Stroggaside from the gradient background, the new UI is pretty nice looking
01:07:57Stroggrockbox has come along way since the version I was running. hehe
01:08:07Lloreanxqtftqx: I'd recommend you try using the linux instructions completely, then. They might work better for you.
01:08:10xqtftqxLlorean: Can you send me a compiled sendfirm?
01:08:21xqtftqxto try it out, see if it works
01:08:28LloreanYou can compile your own...
01:08:42webguest98yo can i get writing privliges from someone
01:09:38xqtftqxLlorean: How do i compile the mknkboot utility?
01:11:02xqtftqxand or get a "precompiled" binary?
01:11:24Lloreanxqtftqx: The same way you compile anything else...
01:11:53xqtftqxIs there a make file?
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01:13:10 Quit desowin ("KVIrc 4.0.0 Insomnia")
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01:14:06 Quit webguest98 ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)")
01:14:51xqtftqxbut why cant i compile sendfirm? i get tons of errors
01:15:07 Quit amiconn ("switching clients")
01:15:12xqtftqxi have libmtp and libusb installed
01:15:25 Join amiconn [50] (n=jens@rockbox/developer/amiconn)
01:15:59LloreanThen read the errors and start figuring out what they mean. Rockbox on the S isn't supported yet, so I assume you're intending to develop for it. Basic stuff like this, you should be able to work your way through.
01:17:06xqtftqxIts just wierd
01:17:14 Join ctaylorr [0] (
01:18:27xqtftqxAh, forget it i can use single boot for the night
01:18:42xqtftqxIll try back tommorow
01:18:56 Quit xqtftqx (" ajax IRC Client")
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01:24:26 Quit austriancoder ("Lost terminal")
01:25:55 Join webguest98 [0] (n=479cb0ba@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
01:26:13webguest98how do i know if it is an ipod mini 1st gen or 2nd gen?
01:27:25 Quit webguest98 (Client Quit)
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01:33:39 Quit mf0102 ("Ex-Chat")
01:36:34 Join windio00 [0] (n=windio00@
01:37:42windio00hey the auto thing says failed to install bootloader for ipod mini 1st gen
01:37:54 Quit jhMikeS (Nick collision from services.)
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01:38:40windio00should i try it manually?
01:40:28 Join xqtftqx [0] (i=40e9e3d2@gateway/web/ajax/
01:40:40windio00blah ipodcatcher says it is a 2nd gen
01:40:44windio00trust it?
01:40:51windio00sales receipt says 1st gen
01:41:12 Quit PaulJam (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
01:41:20xqtftqxIf anybody has a gigabeat S multiboot firmware can you please contact me
01:41:28 Quit dxl (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
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01:44:34 Join dxl [0] (
01:47:18pixelmawindio00: is the storage (size of the drive) engraved on the back? Also it is called ipodpatcher...
01:49:17 Join Thundercloud [0] (
01:49:50windio00pixelma, engraved? no printed
01:50:28pixelmaok, then it should be a 2nd gen
01:50:52windio00wow i got a 2nd gen for the price of a 1st :)
01:51:18 Quit Genre9mp3 ()
01:51:42windio00how do you make it boot into apple instead?
01:52:03 Join pengo [0] (
01:52:09pixelmathe manual has some answers ;)
01:52:19windio00in case she doesnt like it booting into my tinkering
01:53:31 Quit w0rd54 (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
01:55:17windio00pixelma, what apge?
01:56:09pengohi :) can i have twiki access?
01:56:26pixelmawindio00: follow the link in the left hand side of almost every Rockbox page...
01:59:16 Join w0rd54 [0] (
02:00:35windio00pixelma, is m4a supported?
02:00:52windio00not sure what format that is . .. mp4?
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02:15:04 Join saratoga [0] (n=9803c6dd@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
02:15:04 Part pixelma
02:16:33windio00are the manuals available in more than one language?
02:18:15windio00im just looking for a spanish manual for my friend
02:24:24 Quit perrikwp (" ajax IRC Client")
02:25:21Strogghrmmm Poop. build doesn't compile with the patch. I guess there's been changes to the plugin system since April..
02:25:28pengoanyone about who i can ask for wiki access froM?
02:25:31*Strogg peruses the SVN for a bit
02:26:01StroggI don't suppose someone has made a git tree of the svn repo, have they?
02:26:41 Join goffa [0] (n=goffa@
02:31:57saratogapengo: sure whats your name
02:32:11saratogaStrogg: check the logs about 2 or 3 hours ago when they did just that
02:32:18pengosaratoga: PeterHalasz
02:32:34*Strogg pages up
02:33:32 Join shadoxx [0] (
02:34:15 Join goffa_ [0] (n=goffa@
02:34:48saratogapengo: ok added
02:35:09pengosaratoga: thanks!
02:35:37Stroggsaratoga: thanks :)
02:36:03 Join perrikwp [0] (i=d1a8d351@gateway/web/ajax/
02:36:05StroggI always feel bad about git cloning a large svn repo.. but I always feel worse about using svn. hehe
02:38:48kugelStrogg: You kinda couldn't have a better timing asking for a git mirror repo
02:39:00Stroggindeed. hehe
02:39:42 Quit kugel ("ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0/2008052906]")
02:44:41shadoxxHow hard is it to decrypt the .mi4 files? I have a player here that I'd like to try to start a port of Rockbox to.
02:45:23 Join [1]cool_walking_ [0] (
02:47:52saratogashadoxx: pretty easy I think
02:48:00 Quit sarixe ("(EE) Failed to load "quit" module")
02:48:08shadoxxAny utils I should know about?
02:48:35 Quit goffa (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
02:50:44saratogai think theres some tool for it, google for the page describing it
02:51:02saratogait being the mi4 firmware format
02:53:01shadoxxtrying to find a copy of the firmware to download real quick. there's an .mi4 file on the device, but i don't know about it
02:53:30saratogawhat device is it?
02:54:47shadoxxSamsung YH-820
02:55:15shadoxxIt's based on the Portal Player SoC. Everything I've read says it's the same chip that's in the ipod minis, and some iRiver devices.
02:55:29shadoxxI'm looking for a PCB scan so I won't have to take mine apart. :3
02:57:24 Quit tvelocity (Remote closed the connection)
02:58:16shadoxxBtw, anyone that remembers me. Woot! is sending me out a new Sansa c250. :D So I should have rockbox on that soon.
02:58:32shadoxxLooks like either the RAM chip or Flash chip was crappy.
02:59:47 Join culture [0] (
03:03:02 Join usedrugs [0] (
03:03:04usedrugsanyone here?
03:03:35usedrugsi want to charge my Iriver ihp-40 but it wants a 5 volt DC input
03:03:41usedrugsi only have 4.5 and 6 volt adapters
03:04:13usedrugswill these damage the iriver? if so which will damage it less?
03:04:24shadoxxUse the 4.5 volt.
03:04:25 Join Ramune [0] (n=18041581@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
03:04:36shadoxxBetter to charge it with something undervolted than overvolted
03:04:46shadoxxIt may just charge a little slower.
03:04:47usedrugswill it hurt the battery?
03:04:59***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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03:05:14shadoxxIt might
03:05:21soapthe odds are much higher that overvoltage will cause harm than undervoltage, though a cautious person would just buy the right adapter.
03:05:40usedrugsi lost my first one and broke my second one
03:05:41 Quit Ramune (Client Quit)
03:06:18usedrugsand now i have a variable one that i thought would do the trick but it only has the settings 4.5 and 6
03:06:22usedrugsand the iriver wnats 5 ;(
03:07:04 Quit MethoS- ("Konversation terminated!")
03:07:41usedrugsyikes, google says:
03:07:42usedrugsfried MP3 player iHP140. Hi i plugged a 6 volt charger into my 5 volt unit for several hours. the unit became very warm and now doesn't work. Does anybody know is it repairable. is there a fuse , will a new battery do it. is there a way of getting my music off the mp3.
03:07:47usedrugsfrom some forum
03:07:51usedrugswow i'm glad i asked first
03:09:01shadoxxYeah, never go over when it comes to electricity. You could end up frying your device.
03:09:09shadoxxThat goes with pretty much anything.
03:09:17 Join guest45 [0] (n=864c0305@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
03:09:18usedrugsgood to know
03:09:33usedrugsi was worried that going under might hurt it more ... somethign to do with battery 'memory' and it not filling all the way
03:09:42usedrugsclearly i have no idea how electronics work eh
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03:10:21 Join Zom [0] (
03:11:16guest45usedrugs: when you want to use a different than the original charger for your H140 take care that it matches EXACTLY those of the original charger. i think most damaged H100s were because of wrong chargers.
03:11:29usedrugsoh ;(
03:11:59guest45i think there is a thread on about possible alternative chargers.
03:12:00usedrugswell at this point it's either use a 4.5 volt charger or leave my h140 in the closet where it's been for months
03:12:38usedrugswell most adapters cost $20 or so which is fine but i live in japan so shipping is like $40 on top of that.. i just cant justify that, even for my old beloved warhorse
03:13:02usedrugsnot again anyway. i've already gone through 2 adapters.
03:13:09usedrugsthe 2nd one broke on a recent trip
03:14:10guest45i think i read that the charger of the PSP matches the iriver charger quite closely. that might be available in japan.
03:14:23soapok, usedrugs, this has gone far enough off-topic. Please no more.
03:14:35usedrugsare you serious?
03:14:41soapyea, I am
03:14:43usedrugstalking about music devices is off topic for #rockbox?
03:14:48soapyes, it is.
03:15:12usedrugsokay proceed with your conversation.
03:15:16usedrugsoh yeah you're not having one.
03:15:16 Quit guest45 ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
03:15:22usedrugsso what's the problem mate.
03:15:42soaplogged channel, read by the people who do the actual work, don't need all this clutter.
03:15:56usedrugsfine. was done talking about it anyway.
03:16:35 Quit usedrugs ()
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03:27:47 Quit culture (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
03:28:42shadoxxhaha. holy crap. mi4tool decrypted the default firmware for the YH-820 with no problems what-so-ever
03:29:02TimothyWynnWhen using Cygwin (I hope I spelled that right), how do you change the sapi5 voice
03:29:19TimothyWynnI couldn't find it anywhere on teh wiki.
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03:31:22 Join atrus [0] (
03:32:04shadoxxOK, question. How would I got about grabbing files out of the .mi4 file? Specifically the .rom file
03:38:18shadoxxHmm. I'd like to say this should be easy, but I'll refrain, considering I have no prior experience doing this.
03:41:47shadoxxYeah, I'm on that site. :D
03:42:59shadoxxhmm, looks like the manufacturer's firmware can be decoded with mi4tool, but the Janus firmware can't
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03:50:33StroggWoot! Victory!
03:50:42StroggI can replay Go games on my ipod now. hehe
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04:41:44LloreanIt's as relevant as viewing the playlist itself.
04:41:59LloreanMUCH more relevant than a "Main Menu" option when there's already a button to go immediately to it.
04:42:03pengoso what are "recent bookmarks"?
04:42:15pengoit's retarted
04:42:18LloreanRecent bookmarks are all recently saved bookmarks.
04:42:19pengowith a d
04:42:29LloreanHave you never read the manual?
04:42:39LloreanRockbox has an awful lot of features.
04:42:41pengoyeah i just did and it doesn't say that
04:43:15LloreanAs well, Playlist Catalog allows you to add the currently playing song to multiple playlists
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04:43:22LloreanIt obviously belongs within the context menu, if you'd ever used it.
04:44:27pengoLlorean: no, as I said. What's "View Catalog" do?
04:44:42LloreanI believe it views the catalog of playlists...
04:45:27pengoare there multiple catalogs?
04:45:37LloreanI don't know what you mean.
04:45:57pengothere is a single catalog of playlists then?
04:46:08pengoso why is it in a context menu?
04:46:25LloreanBecause you are selecting the current song, which can then be added to any of the playlists within the catalog.
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04:46:35StroggLlorean: thanks for the help earlier. got things working :)
04:46:50pengoLlorean: what about viewing the catalog?
04:46:52Strogglater this week, I'll give a shot and porting this patch to HEAD
04:47:04Lloreanpengo: What about viewing it?
04:47:06LloreanYou can.
04:47:22pengoLlorean: why is viewing the catalog a contextual thing?
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04:48:24Lloreanpengo: Because it's a sub-item of the existing menu.
04:48:50LloreanAlso, within the context of playback, you may wish to quickly change to another playlist, this makes it quite easy.
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04:49:17LloreanThe whole point of the playlist catalog is to give easy access to adding to, or playing, your playlists. Both quite relevant to the context of playback.
04:49:27pengoLlorean: they're not contextual reasons. "to get to it quickly" is a poor reason.
04:49:43LloreanAdding the current song isn't contextual?
04:50:00LloreanHow is "Main Menu" in any way contextual then?
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04:50:13LloreanYour only justification for it being there is "I can't be bothered with two buttons, so want to break the UI design"
04:50:29soapforums acting up for others, or just me?
04:50:39Lloreansoap: Same here, but they're back
04:50:54pengoLlorean: dude i'm not going to bother because this is just being argumentative. sorry. thanks for you help.
04:50:56vegamanhi, got a problem with the current build on my ipod (4th gen photo)... not sure if this is the right place?
04:50:57 Quit dabujo_ (Client Quit)
04:51:21JdGordonvegaman: wierd colours?
04:51:42vegamanyup, and now it's crashed and I can't get it to restart
04:52:11pengoso when you "create bookmark" is that attached to the current playlist?
04:52:22Lloreanpengo: It's associated with the current playlist.
04:52:42pengobut "recent bookmarks" are not?
04:52:54LloreanRecent bookmarks are not associated with a single playlist
04:53:08LloreanIt's an aggregation of a certain number of the last saved bookmarks for any playlists.
04:53:24JdGordonvegaman: to restart... hold down menu and select
04:53:48JdGordonbookmarks should be removed...
04:53:50Lloreanpengo: I'd strongly recommend trying the features, and spending some time using them, before suggesting they be repositioned.
04:54:09LloreanA familiarity with how they work, what they're for, and what you can do with them, will help greatly.
04:54:13vegamanJdGordon: yeah, I know how to restart... there must be something wrong with the mp3 I'm trying to play that's making it crash
04:54:32vegamanJdGordon: but it was restarting with the last build I was using, and I can't get it to with this one
04:54:48JdGordonwhich was the last one?
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04:55:04vegamanwill try a few more times, the buttons stick sometimes
04:55:04LloreanJdGordon: Bookmarks should be redone from scratch as an extension of the playlist system.
04:55:07pengoLlorean: i've been using bookmarks for yonks. I just dont use playlists.
04:55:36vegamannot quite sure, it was revision 16*** though I think, haven't updated for a while
04:55:46JdGordonLlorean: yes and no... if they are merged in with the playlist system, then they can be removed in favour of the playlist cataloge
04:55:54Lloreanpengo: And yet you weren't aware the recent bookmarks list shows bookmarks from all playlists, rather than just the current playlist?
04:55:59JdGordonvegaman: ok then... thats AGES ago
04:56:10pengoLlorean: like i said, i dont use playlists.
04:56:10*JdGordon goes to have a shower
04:56:19pengoLlorean: i assumed thats what it'd do
04:56:21vegamanJdGordon: restarted at last... so the colours is a known regression?
04:56:35Lloreanpengo: There's always a playlist. Even if it's just a "folder", it's treated as one, and they still work the same awy
04:56:51pengoLlorean: i should say i dont use multiple playlists then
04:57:15LloreanStill, recommending features you don't use to be moved is somewhat iffy, I think.
04:57:16JdGordonvegaman: yeah, unfortunalty... it will be fixed soonish hopefully
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04:57:34vegamancool, thanks
04:58:23pengoLlorean: i use bookmarks.
04:59:03Lloreanpengo: You don't use the differences between the Recent Bookmarks and the List Bookmarks options, though
04:59:12LloreanNor did you take the time to investigate if there were any before making recommendations on them.
04:59:16LloreanYou could've simply asked first.
05:00:03pengoLlorean: the reasons you've given still don't justify the confusion of how they're layed out.
05:00:05LloreanInstead, it seems you assumed that someone had made a mistake by deciding "List Bookmarks" was context-relevant.
05:00:28LloreanThey're absolutely in the correct place. "Recent Bookmarks" is independent of what's playing.
05:00:35Llorean"List Bookmarks" is dependent on what's playing
05:00:45LloreanThe first is context-independent, the second depends on the context.
05:01:29pengoLlorean: so there's a problem
05:01:37pengobecause it's not at all clear from the menu
05:02:11LloreanSo the problem is that "I can't make the leap from 'it's in the context menu' to 'it depends on the context"?
05:02:29LloreanThere's not really a more explicit name than "List Bookmarks" that can be used.
05:02:42LloreanPerhaps "Playlist Bookmarks"
05:02:42pengoit could be in the playlists sub-menu
05:02:50LloreanIt doesn't depend on a playlist file
05:03:03LloreanIt depends on the in-ram playlist, based on either a playlist file, or the current folder.
05:03:29pengoand how is the user meant to know tihs?
05:03:43LloreanWhy do they need to?
05:03:43pengothe manual doesn't go into that detail.
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05:03:58pengobecause they need to know it to know where to look for their bookmark menus
05:04:08LloreanThe manual lists *where* they are, certainly
05:04:21pengobut it's nonsensicle
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05:04:53LloreanThe context-sensitive option is in the context menu, while the context-independent isn't, and this is nonsensical?
05:05:00pengoanyway. it's dependent on the Current Playlist, yes? so why not in that submenu?
05:05:16pengoWPS > context menu > Playlist > View bookmarks
05:06:07LloreanNow you're going in circles
05:06:44LloreanBookmarks are NOT a playlisting option.
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05:08:29pengothey're just associated with the current playlist
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05:08:41LloreanThey're associated with what's playing.
05:08:51pengowhich is called the "current playlist"
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05:09:22LloreanBut bookmarks are a separate set of functionality
05:09:34LloreanThe "Playlist" menu is for manipulation of a playlist.
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05:10:23pengonot the WPS playlist options.. View Current Playlist, Search in Playlist, Save Current Playlist, Reshuffle
05:10:37LloreanYes, "View" allows you to remove or move songs.
05:10:41Llorean"Search" allows you to find a song
05:10:50LloreanSave is obviously a manipulation as it is creation.
05:10:53Lloreanreshuffle, manipulation again.
05:11:14pengomm k
05:11:21LloreanThe only non-manipulation feature is that from View/Search you can simply play the song you get to.
05:11:34LloreanBut in all, it's a tool for working with and on your playlist.
05:11:45LloreanBookmarking is a playback option, it just uses the current playlist.
05:12:02pengowhen are your bookmarks lost?
05:12:10LloreanWhen you delete them.
05:12:41pengowhy are bookmarks not universal (not associated with a playlist) ?
05:12:54LloreanThere is no such thing as "no playlist" in Rockbox.
05:13:04LloreanWhen you play a folder, there's a playlist in RAM for that folder.
05:13:07pengowhy are bookmarks not universal (not associated with the current playlist) ?
05:13:14LloreanYou already asked that.
05:13:23LloreanWhat do you mean by it?
05:13:55pengohang on i'll check the behavior my device....
05:14:11LloreanBookmarks either resume a point in a playlist file, OR in a folder.
05:14:14LloreanThey don't require a playlist file.
05:14:32pengoso what does it mean for them to be associated with the current playlist?
05:14:39LloreanThe in-RAM playlist
05:14:46LloreanWhen you play a folder, somewhere Rockbox has to keep track of the songs
05:14:53LloreanThus, there is a virtual playlist.
05:14:57pengoyes i got that.. that's what i meant by "current playlist"
05:15:15LloreanThey're "associated" with this in the sense that both the in-RAM playlist, and the list of files the bookmark references come from the same source: the list in the folder
05:15:50pengoso when you open a "new playlist" (a new folder) you lose your bookmarks?
05:16:01LloreanWhy on Earth would you?
05:16:13LloreanPlaylists are saved in a file, that references the folder they were created off of
05:16:19LloreanThey'll work as long as you don't delete or move that folder.
05:16:24LloreanEr, Bookmarks, in that second sentence.
05:17:10pengoi'm still confused as to why bookmarks are context related
05:17:24LloreanHow can you be confused by this?
05:17:37LloreanThe "List Bookmarks" only lists the bookmarks on the folder or playlist you are currently playing
05:17:44LloreanTherefor the list depends entirely on the context.
05:18:01LloreanIt changes, based on context (based on what you choose to play)
05:19:02atrusbut if you playlist is in ram, and your bookmark is for that, and you discard your ram playlist by playing something else, the bookmark goes with it?
05:19:17Lloreanatrus: No.
05:19:40LloreanThe bookmarks either reference a *file* playlist, or a *folder*
05:19:46atrushrm. so if the dynamic playlist dissapears, what playlist do you open to get at the bookmark again?
05:19:53LloreanIf you aren't playing from a file playlist, or a single folder, you cannot bookmark.
05:20:30LloreanIt's a limitation of the current playlisting system.
05:20:43LloreanThe only real fix would be to have bookmarks contain a playlist (or playlists contain bookmarks)
05:20:57atrusLlorean: that clears that up, i was actually trying to figure out where the "add bookmark" option went a while ago, and thought maybe it had been moved in the last rockbox version update
05:20:58LloreanThis is the same reason why you can't bookmark from the database without saving a playlist.
05:21:54atrusso if i open a playlist from the catalog, and insert songs, then it's no longer an on-disk playlist, and i can't bookmark anything, correct?
05:22:09pengoLlorean: ah the confusion is that i assumed the bookmarks were discarded, when they're just "hidden", when you change folders/playlists
05:22:38Lloreanatrus: If you save it, it should be fine.
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05:23:28atrusLlorean: what about opening a playlist and then _queuing_ files?
05:23:51LloreanHaven't tried it.
05:24:10LloreanThe bookmark functionality is old. And partially it's based on an assumption that you're listening to something sequential and static.
05:24:58atrusi'm virtually always using a dynamic playlist, initialized from disk and then with extra things thrown in on the fly
05:25:21LloreanWhy would you need to bookmark one?
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05:25:33pengoLlorean: why aren't there universal bookmarks (other than "recent bookmarks")?
05:26:02Lloreanpengo: I don't know what you mean by "universal", "recent bookmarks" isn't universal either by my definition of it, since it still has the same "directory or playlist" restriction
05:26:11atrusLlorean: generally, if i'm in that situation, in the middle of a song, and then switch to listing to a podcast, and want to come back to the same set up.
05:26:23atrusin which case i guess i should be saving a temporary playlist to flash or something.
05:26:24pengoLlorean: so "recent bookmarks" should be in the context menu then?
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05:26:45Lloreanpengo: Why? It's a list of ALL recent bookmarks, not just the ones from the last folder/playlist.
05:27:04LloreanYou keep jumping from point to point, without answering my questions. What do you mean by "universal"?
05:27:15atrusi guess the idea of a "universal" bookmark would be that you look at a bookmark that's not neccesarilly associated with the current playlist/folder, and opening it would open the corresponding playlist/folder?
05:27:33pengoLlorean: well that's what i mean by universal.. not restricted to a playlist/folder context.. like firefox's bookmarks
05:27:38atruslike "bookmarks" in firefox.
05:27:51LloreanYou can always load the bookmarks for a given folder.
05:27:54LloreanThey're stored there.
05:28:01LloreanThey don't disappear.
05:28:26LloreanThe "recent" list tracks recent ones. Otherwise you just browse to them rather than accessing them through a menu structure.
05:28:26atrusright, but there's no menu for them short of navigating the filesystem
05:28:28pengoLlorean: yeah i was confused about that before. So bookmarks are physically stored in each folder?
05:28:54pengowell i think they need different names
05:29:00LloreanDifferent names?
05:29:04LloreanFrom what, "Bookmarks"?
05:29:19atrusthis bookmark behavior is very non-obvious to someone who's used to web browser bookmarks
05:29:30atrusit's certainly had me confused for a couple years now :)
05:29:42JdGordon_how is it different?
05:29:47Lloreanatrus: It's very internally consistent.
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05:29:58LloreanAs long as you know the relatively simple rules, it works fine.
05:30:06pengoJdGordon_: because the bookmark i made while listening to James Brown is no longer listed when I go to listen to Beastie Boys
05:30:11LloreanIt's not perfect, but the problem is the bookmarking system predates database.
05:30:36Lloreanpengo: You're in the CONTEXT MENU. Why would you assume universal bookmarks there?
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05:30:45pengoLlorean: note that you've just spent half an hour explaining these "simple" rules to me :)
05:30:59Lloreanpengo: No, I spent half an hour trying to explain unrelated things
05:31:09LloreanThe two rules are simple: You can only bookmark a folder or a static playlist.
05:31:16pengoLlorean: Because the context is a song, not obviously an in-ram playlist
05:31:52pengothe rules suck
05:31:57Lloreanpengo: Uhm? You mean to you the context is "music is playing" and therefor all entries in the menu should be the same as long as "music is playing" is true?
05:32:12atrusif i visit and then click on flyspray and open a bug, and then bookmark that bug, it appears in my bookmarks. it still appears in my bookmarks when i go to rockbox would say i have to go back to to see the bookmark again.... if i understand correctly
05:32:29pengoatrus: yes.
05:32:39Lloreanatrus: No, you're still in one context, "the internet"
05:32:56LloreanRockbox's method would say "if you got off the internet, and got on internet2, all internet bookmarks would not be there"
05:33:00atrusLlorean: my context in rockbox is "playing mp3s on my mp3 player" :)
05:33:09pengoLlorean: context of the song playing.. e.g. the sorts of things I expect are "rate this song" "delete this song" "bookmark this song"
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05:33:21Lloreanpengo: "Bookmarks for this song"
05:33:46LloreanIE, if you play a single long track, say a podcast, you can have several bookmarks within the one file.
05:34:18atrusi think this is deserving of some kind of survey/poll to find out what percentage of rockbox users understand these rules, because i doubt they're getting used the way the designers expected :)
05:34:34LloreanDesigners use them the way we expected.
05:35:02LloreanAnd frankly, they're not designing for anyone else but themselves. They contribute 100% of the work ,they define 100% of "the way things ought to work"
05:35:15pengoLlorean: the rules would be clear if "bookmarks" was under the "Current playlist" menu (which is currently just called "Playlist")
05:35:25pengoor at least a little clearer
05:35:29Lloreanpengo: The whole context menu is either "current song" or "current playlist" contextual...
05:36:06LloreanBookmarks happen to be relevant to both contexts.
05:36:20LloreanIt's rather clear that, being in the context menu, it's not referring to "all bookmarks everywhere on your player"
05:36:28LloreanIf there were an option for that, it wouldn't belong in the context menu
05:36:29pengoLlorean: what does "delete" do in the WPS context menu?
05:36:37LloreanDeletes the currently playing song from disk
05:36:42pengoLlorean: not from the playlist
05:36:46pengoso the context is not clear
05:36:50atrusi suppose the literal bookmark analogy makes some sense. you take a book off your shelf, and browse the bookmarks in it, then put it back and open a different book with different bookmarks
05:37:13pengoif there were bookmarks PER SONG it would make sense.. but there are multiple contexts which are confused
05:37:37Lloreanpengo: The BOOKMARKS option is relevant to the SONG AND PLAYLIST. Delete is relevant to the SONG. "Playlists" would be bad because Bookmarks is NOT JUST A PLAYLIST OPTION
05:37:40LloreanHow can I say this any clearer?
05:38:10LloreanIf you play a single song, you can still place bookmarks within it.
05:38:36atrusoh, that reminds me of something else that was bugging me. how do you play just a single song?
05:38:53Lloreanatrus: If it's not alone in a folder, while music is stopped, "Insert" it
05:39:17atrusLlorean: doesn't "insert" add it to the existing dynamic playlist though?
05:39:26LloreanIf music is stopped, there is no "existing" playlist
05:39:34atruserm, how do you stop, as opposed to just pausing?
05:39:37pengoLlorean: i understand how it works, but it's hugely unintuitive
05:39:44Lloreanatrus: Depends on your player, covered in the manual
05:39:56Lloreanpengo: For you possibly. While I didn't design the system, it made perfect sense to me, rather immediately.
05:40:16pengoLlorean: how did you learn that bookmarks were playlist sensitive?
05:40:38LloreanWhat, exactly, do you mean by "playlist sensitive"?
05:40:56LloreanI've tried to explain a few times now they don't depend on the existence of a playlist.
05:40:59pengoLlorean: that when you open a new playlist your bookmarks would disappear until you re-opened that playlist/folder
05:41:08LloreanI assumed it would be that way
05:41:14LloreanThey were, after all, in the context menu.
05:41:30LloreanI assumed that they were within the context of "what is being played"
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05:42:45pengoyou know "Bookmark this page" is in firefox's context menu when you right-click a page
05:43:08LloreanAnd that's totally irrelevant.
05:43:21LloreanWeb browsers and music players are rather different types of software.
05:43:48pengojust sayaing, the bookmarks could work the same way
05:44:19LloreanSo, "remove the ability to easily see the bookmarks in the current playlist in favour of a giant intermixed list of bookmarks almost impossible to navigate"?
05:45:03LloreanI mean, if you think you know a better way to do it, feel free to submit a patch.
05:45:09LloreanIf it's good enough, it'll be accepted.
05:45:23LloreanBut until the option does something different, the current option is unarguably context sensitive.
05:45:26pengoLlorean: you could have both
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05:54:18jamescan i ask a question
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05:54:43Guest56485does anyone know how to put videos on ipod nano
05:54:50Guest56485using the mpeg player
05:55:44Guest56485is anyone out there
05:55:49pengoLlorean: thanks for your time all the same
05:56:07Guest56485can some one help me plz
05:56:22Guest56485i got rockbox on my ipod nano
05:56:57Guest56485fne fuck yall
05:57:34[1]cool_walking_Guest56485, you're not going to get any help that way.
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05:58:56vegamanwow... people are rude
05:59:06ipodcan someone help me
05:59:19ipodi got rockbox on my ipod nano
05:59:40ipodand im trying to put videos on it using mpeg player
05:59:44MU{lappy}and i'd imagine we're seeing the same fellow again. *sigh*.
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06:00:05ipodwell if someone would help me
06:00:28Lloreanipod: 1) Not everyone is around. 2) Not everyone around knows the answer.
06:00:29[1]cool_walking_ipod, as it says in the IRC guidelines, which are linked in the channel topic, don't "ask to ask". Just ask a question. You also have to be *much* more patient than you're being.
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06:01:14MU{lappy}and swearing at people when you don't get an immediate answer doesn't make them want to help. even if they were looking for the appropriate link already.
06:01:16ipodwell if someone could at least help me
06:01:46Lloreanipod: If you were polite, respectful, and had some patience, you might get more help.
06:01:59LloreanAs well, if you took a little time to read the PluginMpegplayer page, you might not need help in the first place.
06:02:00vegamanyeah, things can take a while on irc... an explaining transcoding video on irc would take me too long... I think there may be suggestions in the tools section on the site
06:02:01ipodi been working on this a long time
06:02:33ipodok can u link it to me
06:02:39MU{lappy}ipod: you put a video in the appropriate format on your player, and open it in the file browser
06:02:41vegamannot tools, I forget, I'll have a quick look, see if I can find the right sections
06:03:03ipodthe vids are only showing up half of the screen
06:03:33vegamanprobably not the right resolution
06:04:13ipodso what program would i use to get it to the right res
06:04:40[1]cool_walking_Use one of the encoders listed on that wiki page that MU{lappy} linked.
06:04:40Lloreanipod: The page he linked has many options
06:04:57vegamanthe page MU linked above has all the info you need, about what resolution you need, and the options etc.
06:04:58ipodthanx srry for being an ass
06:05:26shadoxxis there an article on the wiki that tells how you replace the bootloader on the ipod? i'm not finding it if there is
06:05:43shadoxxOr even where it's located.
06:05:51shadoxxThe bootloader that is.
06:06:09Lloreanshadoxx: Why do you want to replace it?
06:06:44shadoxxWell, I'm researching on how I would get Rockbox to work on the Samsung YH-820, but I can't seem to find the bootloader on it.
06:07:09shadoxxIt has the same Portal Player chip that the 4G iPod has, so I'm assuming they update the bootloader the same way.
06:07:20shadoxxwas just gonna look into it
06:07:30MU{lappy}shadoxx: that's not necessarily true :/
06:07:43shadoxxMU{lappy}: what isn't?
06:08:10MU{lappy}that it would work substantially the same as iPod 4G
06:08:34Lloreanshadoxx: In fact, since it uses an mi4 file, it almost certainly doesn't work the same
06:08:56shadoxxI know. Couldn't hurt to check though. From what I can gather, Samsung has made it to once you upgrade to their 'Janus' firmware, you can't go back to any older versions.
06:09:30shadoxxI haven't really put it on my windows box yet to confirm that, this is just preliminary research.
06:09:37ipodso hey im useing win ff
06:09:51ipodwhat presetting do i use
06:11:21vegamanI haven't used it, but it sounds like it should have an ipod nano option?
06:11:33ipodno ipod nano option
06:11:41ipodso what do i do
06:12:12ipodi feel dumbnow
06:12:36ipodgoddamn i spent all day
06:12:49ipodfor something i could have done easy as hell
06:13:00[1]cool_walking_ipod: make sure you choose the "RB ipod nano" option, not the "XviD ipod".
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06:13:14ipodi did
06:13:21ipodimma try it and see if it work
06:13:36ipodwill it convert any format
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06:14:06vegamanit should support a lot of formats, but probably not all
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06:15:18ipoddo u guys know how to make it full screen
06:15:32ipodas oppoesed to wide screen
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06:16:27vegamanit depends the resolution you use, you'd have to stretch the video to make it full screen though
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06:16:40ipodhow would ido that
06:16:49ipodor would it make it blocky
06:16:59vegamanumm... I'll download winff to have a look
06:17:11ipodthanks man
06:17:19vegamanit would change the aspect ratio, so things would be stretched
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06:17:51ipodwhat would i change it to
06:18:39vegamanthe full resolution of the ipod nano is 176x132 so that would be the resolution to use if you don't mind stretching
06:19:09ipodok why doent it support full screen
06:19:58vegamanthe mpegplayer in rockbox?
06:21:11vegamanit just plays the video at whatever size it is, if the video is full screen size, you'll get full screen, but scaling a smaller video would take too
06:21:25vegamanmuch cpu power, which isn't available in an ipod
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06:21:49ipodso in winff what do ido for full screen just change the res
06:22:00MU{lappy}i don't think many of these targets offer any hardware scaling, at least any that's documented so that RB can use it
06:23:10vegamanyeah, the normal ipod video players would probably expect the video to be the right size as well... don't know for certain though
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06:23:58ipodwhat is with apple why dont they just support the vid s on nano 1st gen
06:24:36[1]cool_walking_Ask them? Likely they do the least amount of work necessary to get the thing sold.
06:24:42MU{lappy}so you'll buy a newer one? ;)
06:25:04ipodwell idk the screen is so damn small
06:25:20MU{lappy}also, if they want to support the same formats on everything (they like AVC/AAC iirc?), it might not be feasible.
06:25:36vegamanthe newer ipods probably have hardware decoders or acceleration so it's not so much work to get videos playing at all
06:25:39MU{lappy}mpeg2 video / mp3 audio is *much* easier to decode.
06:25:55ipodwhy is that
06:26:08[1]cool_walking_It's a less CPU-intensive codec.
06:26:28vegamanthe player in rockbox is heavily optimised so it actually *can* play video, since these targets weren't designed for it
06:26:31MU{lappy}and this really needs to go to #rockbox-community
06:26:51ipodwell hey i cant get my vid full screen
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06:26:56ipodi changed the res
06:28:22[1]cool_walking_Click "options", and put the ipod nano dimensions in the "size" area.
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06:29:01ipodi did
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06:29:39ipodim trying again
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06:31:13ipodits still wide screen wtf
06:32:17ipodwhat do i do
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06:35:17ipodcan anyone help me
06:35:20vegamanI'm not sure what's happening from here, with a quick test winff allows me to choose a custom resolution... and encodes using that instead of the preset
06:35:47ipodhow do i do that
06:35:59cool_walking_What size are you specifying?
06:36:26cool_walking_Find out the aspect ratio of the video, and set the size based on that. if the aspect ratio is 4:3, the size should be 176x128.
06:36:47ipodyea but i want a full screen
06:36:53ipodnot wide screen
06:37:02cool_walking_What is full screen"
06:37:15cool_walking_What do you mean by "full screen" ?
06:37:23vegamanhe wants full screen, I've explained there will be stretching, maybe it's best to just use the preset, the 4:3 one will only miss a few rows
06:37:40vegamanI'm assuming you mean to make use of every pixel on the screen?
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06:38:53ipodhey srry
06:39:44ipodi think i can deal wit 16:9
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06:41:50ipodit would b nice if i can get full tho
06:42:24cool_walking_Well the nano screen is 176x132, so for full screen, set "video size" in winff to 176x132.
06:43:41ipodi tired that
06:43:58ipodit still encodes to wide
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06:47:54ipodi didnt work
06:48:43ipodit didnt work so now what do i do???
06:49:34cool_walking_I just tried it, and it encoded to the correct size.
06:49:52ipodwhat do u do
06:49:55ipodplz help
06:50:08cool_walking_Can you post a screenshot of WinFF just before you clicked "Convert"?
06:50:28ipodhow do i do that
06:50:55ipodin video size ive got 176x132
06:51:15ipodit say additional options
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06:52:40ipodr u there
06:52:42cool_walking_And "Convert to" is "RB Apple iPod Nano 4:3" or "16:9" ?
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06:54:07ipodis that wrong
06:55:48cool_walking_no that sounds right
06:56:11ipodin the 1st box should it say rockbox
06:57:32ipodhave u put it on ur ipod nano
06:57:40ipodand it played full
06:58:38ipodanother question
06:58:51ipodwhat is the samllest file format rockbox supports
06:59:21cool_walking_I don't have an ipod nano
06:59:29ipodwhat do u have
06:59:57cool_walking_I have a Gigabeat S and a few iPod Videos, but not here :/
07:00:22ipodwitch do u prefer
07:00:58cool_walking_Currently, the Gigabeat S can't charge from Rockbox, but when it can, it will wipe the floor with the iPod Video
07:01:24ipodwhy do u say that
07:02:05cool_walking_It has a *much* faster CPU - plugins, UI responsiveness, and video playback are all noticeably faster
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07:02:31ipodhow much do those cost
07:03:07cool_walking_I got mine for ~$170 off eBay, but I have the feeling I got ripped off. I think they should be around $100 or less.
07:03:18ipodhow many gigs
07:04:14cool_walking_They're available in 30GB or 60GB, mine is currently 100GB because I swapped the HDD
07:04:14ipodif what u have is better why do everyone want ipod
07:04:34ipodhow big is the screen
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07:05:05cool_walking_I don't know about the physical size, but the resolution is 240x320 (same size as iPod Video, but sideways)
07:05:24ipoddamn u ever thought of a zune
07:05:36ipodi had a 80 gig
07:05:48cool_walking_The Gigabeat S is pretty similar to a Zune
07:05:49ipodit was nice but i didnt kno about rockbox
07:06:14ipodwhat is the smalleest audio file rockbox supports
07:06:18cRAKmONKYI would like to update the sansa view port's wiki page but I need write permissions.. I am NicholasHaffen and cRACKmONKEY421 on the forum
07:06:59cool_walking_ipod: That doesn't really make sense - filesize depends on bitrate.
07:07:34cRAKmONKYThere's new information for this page:
07:07:35ipodim kinda dumb when it comes to this stuff still a lil new
07:07:48cool_walking_ipod: Different people say different file formats sound better than each other.
07:08:13ipodbut they are all the same
07:08:19ipodor what
07:09:58cool_walking_I personally can't really tell any difference.
07:10:29ipodso what games can i put on my ipod
07:10:37cool_walking_cRAKmONKY: I gave you write permission.
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07:12:42cool_walking_ipod: There are descriptions of the Rockbox plugins on the wiki
07:12:50ipodi noticed on ipods rockbox makesthe battery last longer
07:12:51wpyhipod: are you asking why everyone wants an ipod?
07:12:55*wpyh has the answer
07:13:04wpyh1. because almost everybody else has it
07:13:14wpyh2. because it's available cheaper
07:13:24*wpyh has an ipod because of #2 and not #1
07:13:33cool_walking_3. because Rockbox runs on it :)
07:13:42wpyhyeah, and #3 ;)
07:13:51shadoxxgah, this is so annoying
07:13:52wpyhbut that's not a decision maker
07:13:59wpyhbecause the gigabeat also runs RB
07:14:02shadoxxI can't figure out how to load a bootloader on this mp3 player. :-\
07:14:07cool_walking_That is _the_ decision maker for me
07:14:12wpyhshadoxx: which one?
07:14:18shadoxxSamsung YH-820
07:14:29shadoxxI'm trying to port Rockbox. Or at least, start a port.
07:14:37wpyhcool_walking: AFAIK the gigabeat S is at least partially supported
07:14:38ipodwelli only got a ipod cuz i traded it for psp
07:14:48ipodno not psp damn
07:14:53wpyhshadoxx: do you have info on the hardware?
07:14:54ipodi meant cd player
07:15:05shadoxxwpyh: I can tell you it's a PP5020 chip.
07:15:07cool_walking_wpyh: Yes I know, I have one running Rockbox.
07:15:11ipodit would b cool to get rockbox for psp
07:15:12shadoxxthat's about it, until i get some pcb scans
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07:15:18*wpyh doesn't know a lot about PP5020
07:15:31shadoxxiPod 4G
07:15:37shadoxxone of the players that use it
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07:15:54wpyhshadoxx: yeah, I mean, I know how to use RB on it, but I'm not very familiar with it :p
07:16:29shadoxxThe thing is, this would be the *perfect* candidate to put rockbox on. Because the stock firmware is, pardon the expression, shit.
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07:18:20cool_walking_shadoxx: In the existing devs' eyes, that does not make it a good candidate. The existing devs will only care if it has good hardware that can add something new to Rockbox.
07:18:57shadoxxThis isn't even a very popular player. I just figured it'd give me something to do in my spare time.
07:19:17shadoxxAt least, I don't think it's a popular player. I'm the only one I know who has it.
07:19:27ipodis there anyway to put rock box on psp
07:19:34cool_walking_ipod: no
07:20:10cool_walking_All the hardware that Rockbox runs on (excepting the sim) is listed on the front page.
07:20:12shadoxx:| You're kidding right?
07:20:27shadoxxRockbox is only ARM, not MIPS right?
07:21:06ipodwell could um 1 make it for psp
07:22:25cool_walking_It's not only arm, but m68k, arm, and sh1.
07:22:33cool_walking_ipod: if you know how to..
07:23:16ipodi wish
07:23:59shadoxxipod: see pm on why it won't work
07:24:23ipodhow do i do dat
07:24:57shadoxxthat's how
07:25:21ipodim just say tha psp sound system sucks
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07:28:43ipodthanx 4 tha help
07:29:08ipodi aplogize for being an ass
07:29:33cool_walking_just.. uh.. try not to be an ass in the future :)
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08:29:54B4gderis the git mirror synced?
08:31:25B4gderanswer: yes it is!
08:36:32B4gdertime to document that somewhere I guess
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08:39:18B4gderyes that seems suitable
08:39:33SxSBruceexcuse me...
08:40:17SxSBrucei have no idea when it comes"Enter your developer option"
08:40:52B4gderso why did you select that option?
08:41:24B4gderthat question pops up when you select "(A)dvanced", right?
08:41:43B4gderso why did you select advanced?
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08:42:19SxSBrucewell i always like sth advanced
08:42:29*GodEater_ goes to look at what time scorche's flight is scheduled
08:42:49SxSBruceokkkk,ill choose Normal...
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09:26:09 Part simonrvn ("Thanks, and Take Care")
09:37:25Nico_PB4gder: is the git repo accessible through HTTP?
09:37:47Nico_PI suppose note
09:39:54Nico_Pwould that be possible?
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09:41:05B4gderyeah, I mostly just need to figure out how...
09:49:48pixelmapetur: I also can't see the filename line in the recording screen on my c200 (r17902), it's there on my M5 (r17806). Need to test more
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09:50:16peturah, so it is c200 specific...
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09:50:42pixelmanot sure yet
09:50:42peturwell the rec screen gui code is ugly anyway, so I'm not surprised
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09:51:17peturmaybe my viewport commit caused it....
09:51:38*JdGordon agrees with whoever said it at the con that post 3.0 we should push for a big recording update
09:52:19peturchange to viewports and add the REP
09:52:35JdGordonand codecs, stability, other stuff
09:52:47peturhas been very stable for me
09:54:00pixelmawhat about codecs?
09:54:22peturare there requests for other than raw/mp3/wavpack?
09:55:11pixelmaI agree though that being able to record to wav directly from the WRS instead of a plugin would be nice on the hwcodec targets ;P
09:55:22JdGordonrec to wav, flac? ogg?
09:56:38petureither you're doing quality recording and you will use lossless because you do post-processing anyway, or you record to mp3 which is good enough for voice notes, interviews...
09:56:39safetydanspeex would be nice
09:56:48safetydanfor voice especially
09:57:43peturwell I really don't see the point of having a ton of codecs for encoding, it is not the same picture as for playback.
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09:58:57pixelmaI could understand the point of having speex got voice recordings
09:59:01KimWoojinHello~ :)
09:59:31peturand with storage capacity going up and getting cheap, who cares about the filesize diff of several lossy codecs. The only thing I can accept is a mp3 patent issue, so another lossy codec might be nice
09:59:47B4gderKimWoojin: you still need to behave
10:00:11peturKimWoojin: and talk English only in here
10:01:54 Quit cool_walking_ (" ")
10:03:57JdGordonSlasheri: ping?
10:07:25Mode"#rockbox +o logbot " by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
10:24:50 Nick linuxstb__ is now known as linuxstb (n=linuxstb@rockbox/developer/linuxstb)
10:25:35BigBambilinuxstb: greetings
10:25:58BigBambilinuxstb: I booted the ATMT with the DAX firmware and it ran perfectly
10:26:59BigBambilinuxstb: So I think we can safely assume they are identical. The only bugger is that I have cocked up the soldering a bit and now it'll only boot from USB
10:27:14BigBambilinuxstb: A sacrifice to the cause!
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10:41:47***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
10:44:54 Part J-23
10:48:04 Join Genre9mp3 [0] (
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10:54:01 Join lucent [0] (
10:54:31lucenthi, looking for an opinion on a readily purchased player that can run Rockbox firmware
10:54:51 Join bertrik [0] (
10:55:02lucentare there any manufacturers who are officially friendly towards the Rockbox development?
10:55:53B4gderlucent: nope
10:56:13markunlucent: some people inside some companies are sometimes
10:56:21Genre9mp3lucent: I wouldn't say there's such a manufacturer but you can check this:
10:56:38lucentI've made a change in my life, and I want to reduce my use of non-open source licensed firmware, as much as possible
10:58:05B4gderbut in the sandisk case, they never officially supported us
10:58:12B4gderand even the unofficial support was rather limited
11:00:02Genre9mp3B4gder: it wasn't anything official of course, but it was the most friendly thing from a manufacturer's side I could think of
11:00:36lucentGenre9mp3: thanks for that link, I'm reading
11:00:44SlasheriJdGordon: hi
11:00:54B4gdertrue, and that says a lot about how non-caring most companies are
11:02:26JdGordonSlasheri: hey
11:02:57markunB4gder: which Git mirror were you talking about?
11:03:00JdGordonim sure I;ve asking this already.... whats the best way to try ang figure out how to save/reload the db search?
11:03:08lucentso, I take it one of you owns a Sansa e200?
11:03:18lucentany comment about it's function with Rockbox?
11:03:26B4gdermarkun: git://
11:03:39B4gderlucent: lots of us do, yes
11:03:46B4gderlucent: rockbox works fine on it
11:03:51Genre9mp3lucent: most of the people here own many rockbox devices
11:03:53B4gderon the v1 models
11:03:59SlasheriJdGordon: hmm, you mean saving the search query?
11:04:26lucentI'm into snowboarding and I picked up a Sansa clip because I wanted a player I could listen to for a long time while I'm riding... that would be my primary use. Is the battery life okay on with Rockbox?
11:04:35lucentcan the controls be locked?
11:04:42BigBambiRockbox doesn't work on the Sansa Clip
11:04:58JdGordonSlasheri: I really want to get it to work like dirplay so it saves a location instead of a filelist so bookmarks can work
11:05:01lucentyah, well, the clip is a fantastic cheap little mp3 player as-is :)
11:05:12BigBambiOff topic for here
11:05:14lucentoh! and what's the max storage for an e200?
11:05:18B4gderlucent: so your open source "new life" stop there then? ;-)
11:05:26Genre9mp3lucent: 8GB but is expandeble
11:05:36BigBambie200 8 GB internal, plus (with Rockbox) SDHC
11:05:41vegamanit has a mini-sd slot in it
11:05:46B4gderno, microsd
11:06:01lucentoh um that's a hardware thing, does it work with Rockbox?
11:06:02SlasheriJdGordon: hmm, probably you should check out from tagtree.c how the query is built up and loaded to the tagcache for execution
11:06:09vegamanmicro mini, ah, often forget exact terms
11:06:19BigBambilucent: Rockbox supports SDHC (up to 32 GB), the OF only up to 2 GB
11:06:32lucentwoha I mean. That's a lot
11:06:38BigBambivegaman: If you aren't sure, please don't give technical advice - accuracy is important
11:07:00lucentcan I buy any e200 and it will work? are there different revs like the iPods?
11:07:05BigBambiv1 only
11:07:07JdGordonSlasheri: yeah, I'm looking at tagtree_enter() and am already lost :p
11:07:10lucentoh :/
11:07:10Genre9mp3lucent: Well 32GB microSDHC aren't available yet ;)
11:07:12 Part vegaman ("no advice then")
11:08:29lucentI am really surprised that no manufacturer is producing a player with explicit rockbox compatibility
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11:08:55JdGordonSlasheri: whats the c->currtable?
11:08:57Genre9mp3lucent: I guess they have bad consultants ;)
11:09:56B4gderor they think their own way makes them more money
11:10:19*lucent thinks a bit
11:10:32lucentso I can't buy an e200 then? they would all be v2!
11:11:01B4gderlucent: rockbox doesn't run (fine) on any player currently being manufactured
11:11:10fluxlucent, even further, they could deliver with rockbox
11:11:37fluxI would imagine that would bring the R&D costs somewhat; albeit perhaps it could be too easy to compete
11:11:38SlasheriJdGordon: that should be the current browsing level (those names are very mystic due to the names used in the very old db system i used as the base)
11:11:39markunlucent: someone bought a e200 a short while ago because he wanted to work on the v2 port and it turned out the be a v1 :)
11:11:40lucentoh geeze, well this is good info.
11:11:49lucentmarkun: that's really funny :)
11:11:51fluxand more difficult to differentiate from competition
11:12:01SlasheriJdGordon: values can be root, navibrowse or allsubentries
11:12:10JdGordonroot == 1?
11:12:21Slasherithose are defines
11:12:58Slasheriah, playtrack is the latest one
11:12:58lucentwhat about homebrew?
11:12:59BigBambilucent: Your best bet for a v1 is ebay or refurbs
11:13:15BigBambilucent: homebrew what?
11:13:23lucentlike a homebrew player that runs rockbox
11:13:29lucentdo you know of such a thing?
11:13:42BigBambiSome people have been chatting in the forum about it
11:13:42B4gderlucent: homebrew efforts pop up regularly but so far no one has pulled through
11:14:05BigBambiBut they always look like they would be more expensive, bigger, etc. than ones you can buy
11:14:35BigBambiAnd as B4gder says, no-one has actually done it
11:15:09lucentif there were a reference platform for sale, it would at least always be available
11:15:27fluxbut the reference platforms might not be something you put into your pocket
11:15:33fluxif you mean evaluation boards?
11:15:40lucentno, something for a desk or evaluation
11:15:48 Join faemir [0] (
11:15:51lucentso a manufacturer can request a demo
11:15:59B4gderwell, it's possible to do for anyone who wants to
11:16:04lucentthat's how it works in the real world
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11:16:34*BigBambi isn't sure about that
11:16:41B4gderme neither
11:17:27fluxconstructing an simple mp3 player per se shouldn't be infeasible (a friend of mine constructed one as a university course work), but you want it to also run rockbox, you need more hardware :)
11:17:45B4gdermore than what?
11:18:28fluxmore than chips that are speciazed for building mp3-players
11:18:42B4gderI disagree
11:18:56BigBambiflux: What chips?
11:19:04BigBambiSurely you just add what you want?
11:19:12fluxI haven't really investigated, so I cannot say. Do the smallest mp3-players really decode mp3 in software?
11:19:16 Join Zagor [242] (n=bjst@rockbox/developer/Zagor)
11:19:25B4gderflux: yes, all modern players do it in sw
11:19:30B4gdereven the smallest ones
11:19:52Zagorthe main obstacles are 1: attractive industrial design, and 2: cheap manufacturing. both require a large upfront investment.
11:20:06BigBambiflux: It is incredibly non-flexible in any other ways
11:20:23B4gderI think customers want more than "just mp3" these days
11:20:42lucentZagor: I think you misunderstand me here
11:21:44lucentif you want an investment from existing manufacturers, then you need somebody's competitor by the balls, or you need a reference platform to demonstrate your firmware for prospective manufacturers
11:21:48*JdGordon is lost
11:22:01Zagorlucent: manufacturers already know of us. the actively choose not to use rockbox.
11:22:04BigBambilucent: We have loads of those
11:22:22BigBambilucent: All the targets are reference platforms
11:22:27lucentoh hm
11:22:42BigBambiThey all demonstrate the firmware, and how it adapts to different hardware etc
11:22:48BigBambiBest advert I can think of
11:23:25lucentI would have thought some .tw company would try to produce a player using rockbox firmware to save costs
11:23:38B4gderthey're .cn these days ;-)
11:23:46lucentpoint taken
11:23:51B4gderbut apparently their own stuff is even cheaper
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11:24:23B4gderor rather they beleive they make more money this way
11:24:25lucentdang, is there any way to know what revision an e200 is before buying it?
11:24:28lucentlike the model number?
11:24:40B4gderlucent: the firmware version is the only "safe" way to tell
11:24:48BigBambilucent: Only sure way is to look at the original firmware version
11:24:56 Join culture [0] (
11:25:25GlorfindelIf you buy off e-bay, ask the seller to check. The guy I bought from knew his were V1 and seemed to know about rockbox.
11:27:15lucentno joke, I would buy a player if sold one
11:27:31lucentit wouldn't have to be especially pretty looking
11:27:36lucentjust work with the firmware :)
11:29:13B4gderno joke, we could sell one if somebody built it ;-)
11:29:43Zagorlucent: several hundred people probably would. but you need at least tens of thousands go come down to reasonable costs. and that means you need to appeal to the general public. and that means competing with ipod and iriver etc. no fun.
11:30:10B4gderI don't think that's the main problem
11:30:25B4gderthe main problem is that nobody makes even large, ugly expensive units
11:30:33Zagorno, it's just one problem
11:30:48lucentappeal to the general public?
11:31:05lucentif you had something I could stuff in a paperback book sized box, it'd be great
11:31:41Zagorlucent: yes, but your sister/girlfriend/non-geek pal doesn't agree
11:31:43lucentprice point would have to be < $300usd
11:31:55BigBambiI'd love a open, designed for Rockbox player, but ultimately it spends most of its time in my pocket so it needs to be smqll enough, and as I can buy commercial players that do the job, I'm not going to pay over the odds for it either
11:31:56ZagorB4gder: and why don't they? because nobody is buying such players
11:32:21B4gderZagor: no, I don't think so. people would do those things for themselves. but not even those pull through
11:32:55ZagorB4gder: ah, yes. pure homebrew might be fun but won't ever be available in any sort of numbers.
11:33:09B4gderbut numbers won't matter to that kind of homebrews
11:33:14lucentthe alternative is to ride the back of Apple
11:33:25lucentand keep reverse engineering their stuff
11:33:31B4gderwe don't
11:33:34lucentor wait for mobile phone devices to open up a bit
11:33:37Zagorlucent: yeah, but they've posined their back on the latest models
11:33:41lucentlike Google android
11:33:59B4gderlucent: I doubt rockbox will run on Android
11:34:06lucentbut then why bother with a special music firmware ... that's not a real idea
11:34:16BigBambiNo where near enough storage at the moment anyway
11:34:37lucentenough storage?
11:34:40fluxwell, rockbox could run as its own application also :)
11:34:47BigBambilucent: yes
11:34:52B4gderand I personally don't want to run down my phone batteries listening to music so I like having a separate one
11:34:59lucentwhat do you mean
11:35:14BigBambilucent: not enough storage to keep music on
11:35:18lucentmost phones support remmovable storage, I think the android platform does
11:35:26BigBambiFlash is too expensive at the moment for large disks
11:35:33BigBambilucent: Still not enough
11:35:44lucentI'm not freaking, DJ Paul Van Dyke, you know
11:35:44fluxdon't they have 32GB memory cards these days?
11:35:47BigBambilucent: micro sd is currently only available at 16 GB
11:35:55lucentI just have 2gb of music to listen to when I go riding
11:35:55flux(perhaps not micro sd yet, though)
11:35:57BigBambiflux: Not yet avaliable, and still too small
11:36:18fluxI was happy with my 20G hd player, and my upgraded 30G seems enough for now :)
11:36:23fluxit can be enough for many people
11:36:24BigBambiI have a 120 GB drive in my Gigabeat S and it is nearly full
11:36:36BigBambiAnd that is without getting into lossless
11:37:03markunBigBambi: wow, nice upgrade!
11:37:08fluxI suppose it's great to be able to have all your music with you
11:37:26BigBambiI'm just explaining why e.g. a phone is not suitable for me. Also, as Bagder says, I don't want my phone battery to go listening to music and then not be able to phone people
11:37:37BigBambimarkun: Yeah, I'm liking it :)
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11:41:01amiconnMicroSD != flash in general
11:41:16amiconn32GB CF isn't that expensive anymore
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11:42:45BigBambitrue, but I doubt you will find CF slots on many phones
11:42:59B4gderCF is a dying interface
11:43:11BigBambimicrosd ppretty much equals flash in general on phones etc
11:44:20lucentwhat about Cowon?
11:44:34BigBambiwhat about them?
11:44:49lucentaren't they selling a model of player that's Rockbox compatible?
11:44:54lucentam I mistaken?
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11:44:59BigBambiNot any more I don't think
11:45:11BigBambiRockbox runs on M5, M3 and X5
11:45:15gevaertsBut maybe soon :)
11:45:34BigBambiand people are working on other ports, but there is no guarentee if or when that'll be ready
11:46:02BigBambilucent: You are probably thinking of the D2, which isn't done yet
11:46:36pixelmapetur (JdGordon): the "remove lcd margins" commit (r17763) makes the filename line disappear in the c200 recording screen. Maybe the statusbar height is not taken into account when checking for viewport height <= 80? The latter is just a guess though...
11:47:20lucentBigBambi: yeah that's the one
11:48:06JdGordonpixelma: how high is the c200 lcd?
11:48:15pixelma80 pixels
11:48:46JdGordonok, put it on the tracker... im trying to learn how the DB works atm...
11:48:58pixelmawill do
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11:50:17JdGordonassing it to me so i dont forget
11:52:55*petur spots some h320 and h120 on ebay, also plenty of replacement batteries and disks (including MK6006GAH)
11:55:15JdGordonSlasheri: ok, So I
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11:56:21*preglow wonders what's up with tons of freenode servers being unavailable
11:56:21JdGordonSlasheri: ok, So I'm thinking csi needs to be saved, do the table positions in the treecontext need to be saved also? or can they be somehow rebuilt more easily?
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11:56:41preglowsafetydan: i'm planning on making speex encoding work, at least for the more powerful targets
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11:58:42*JdGordon doesnt really think dumping 2 entire structs to text is very good...
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12:04:19*JdGordon wonders what wierdness would happen if the tagnavi was changed between saving the seach and reloading
12:05:26JdGordonhmm... might actually be safe
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12:26:38*JdGordon wonders if 9143 should actually be fixed...
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12:41:51***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
12:55:36safetydanpreglow, sounds good
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13:16:02ZagorJdGordon: imho no, unless someone (with a clue) ever said rbutil *should* work on the sims. otherwise "not a bug" imho
13:16:20Nico_Pbascule closed it
13:17:04ZagorI am so slow. I blame the kids ;)
13:17:07B4gderthere may be reasons to actually make it work on sims, but until nobody has made an effort it isn't actually a bug
13:17:18B4gderuntil somebody even
13:18:58*Zagor returns to the sandpit
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13:42:49SxSBruceExcuse me?
13:43:13BigBambiSxSBruce: If you have a question, just ask it :)
13:43:25B4gderbuilding for m6 right?
13:43:29SxSBruceduring the "make" in compiling
13:43:35SxSBrucei got an error
13:44:18SxSBrucesaying "No rule to make target './root/rockbox/firmware/target/arm/s518700/'"
13:44:57B4gderis the normal build even buildable for m6?
13:45:07 Quit windio00 ("Leaving")
13:45:12gevaertsNo. Only the bootloader (and it's not even a real bootloader)
13:45:16*B4gder continues to assume m6
13:45:19SxSBruceneeded by"./root/rockbox/build_m6/apps/"
13:45:46*SxSBruce still trying to find sth
13:45:57gevaertsSxSBruce: you need to do a bootloader build. The normal build doesn't work yet
13:47:15markunSxSBruce: I think the sim and rockbox are broken right now
13:47:39SxSBruceits just sth happened when i set up the development environment
13:47:41B4gderbut fixing the m6 sim to build would be appreciated
13:49:42markunB4gder: and shouldn't be difficult
13:49:45markunI had it working before
13:50:18markunthe image I used before was from a M6SP so we wanted to take a new one at the devcon
13:50:30markunbut then decided to ask pixelma to make a vector drawing :)
13:51:07markunand I also disabled all the apps, we could enable them and add the button defines
13:51:19pixelmaI didn't realise up to now that it should be used for the sim too...
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13:52:54SxSBrucemaybe i didnt describe the problem clearly
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13:53:02l403hi markun. I'm watching the m6 development too. good luck
13:53:45B4gderSxSBruce: you're build a "normal" build, arent't you?
13:53:53B4gderas selected in tools/configure
13:54:07B4gder(ignore the weird language)
13:54:28*SxSBruce wondered whats the weird language
13:54:30B4gderSxSBruce: then you're not expected to be able to build, as markun and gevaerts explain
13:54:33BigBambi13:44gevaertsSxSBruce: you need to do a bootloader build. The normal build doesn't work yet
13:55:30B4gderSxSBruce: in plain words: select (B)ootloader
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13:56:11markunl403: thanks man
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13:56:42SxSBruceok,let me try it
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13:59:40l403I've got the SL and even tried to take a peek in with the IDA applicatioin but no success. If you need some human resource work, there is plenty ppl that would like to give a hand
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14:02:33l403dishwashing for example :-)
14:06:05markunl403: The things which should be done now are very low level: getting any code to run and then writing drivers
14:07:16markunbut if anyone wants to help out with it they are welcome. Best is to download the source and setup a build environment
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14:13:45*preglow sweats
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14:35:42MarcGuayA note on flyspray: It's currently impossible to filter by 'feature request', thus making it difficult to weed through them. Perhaps it's been decided to delete them all and move the whole thing to the forums?
14:36:53 Part B4gder
14:37:18MTee_is there something wrong with the parameters here : ./genlang -e=english.lang -i=50 -t=E200 -b=arabic.lng arabic.lang ?
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15:06:36pixelmaMTee_: what are you trying to do?
15:07:33MTee_I'm making an arabic lang file, I want to convert it to binary to be able to try it on my sansa e250
15:08:06MTee_genlang returns no errors, but the generated lng file doesn't work
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15:10:55pixelmaI never tried to build a lng file on its own (only as part of a complete "make"), sorry can't help you there
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15:11:55MTee_ok thanks anyways :)
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15:25:43preglowstill no one using os x for rockbox development here?
15:29:05 Quit SxSBruce (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
15:29:16Lloreanpreglow: There was someone who'd occasionally post fixed to the build scripts on the tracker. I think he may be the only person who actually did, though I don't remember who it was.
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15:30:54preglowLlorean: weird, i could have sworn some other people here used os x as well, but seeing as how i can't remember who, it's probably just me imagining things :)
15:31:27gevaertsI think some people use it, but I don't know how manyy of them develop on ot
15:32:14preglowi expected troubles, but not in compiling cross-compilers :/
15:32:54preglowespecially seeing as how it's basically bsd, and i know people use that
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15:37:04pixelmaas I said, I think barrywardell uses it, linuxstb used it for a while alternatively and hmm... maybe midgey as well (?)
15:37:43pixelmaand I believe JdGordon set up one mac as a build server...
15:43:13preglowreally, now
15:43:22preglowi'll ask all of them, didn't catch you telling me last time :)
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15:44:12peturand markun runs BSD iirc
15:44:33preglowyep, he does, but i think he doesn't have any trouble doing so
15:44:47preglowi seem to have some weirdness here where the crosscompiler tries to use native gas for assembling
15:45:33markunno, don't have that problem
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16:00:56JdGordonpreglow: yeah, ive got a osx box, but im not sure if ive done the cross compilers on it... it was only doing sims for the builds so probably didnt bother
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16:03:22preglowJdGordon: right
16:03:38preglowoh wells, i'll try doing the cross compilers by hand latesr
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16:03:55preglowsounds about right with some barbecuing and beer right now, though
16:05:01bertrikpeak meter is spelled in english as "peak meter", not as "peakmeter", right?
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16:05:54*petur is already happy when all the chars are there in the correct order ;)
16:06:07preglowmight be speller peak metre, though :)
16:06:12preglowspelled too
16:06:59preglownah, it's a meter in british english, it seems
16:07:06preglowmetre is the spelling for the si unit
16:08:06bertrikok thanks
16:10:12JdGordonbertrik: :< not so sure that should have gone in....
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16:10:52bertrikthe ata_disk_is_active thing?
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16:11:20bertrikIt should only make things simpler with no side effects as far as I can see
16:11:55JdGordondid you test it? the first patch looked like it would have broken it
16:12:25JdGordonalso, like my comment said.... that function shold be removed from the apps/ layer anyway
16:12:32JdGordonespecially plugins
16:13:03peturI'd like to see more stubs and less #ifdef, I think it opens a clean path to rockbox as an app
16:13:11bertrikI consider removal of the function as a separate step
16:13:22 Quit SxSBruce ("The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese")
16:13:31JdGordonpetur: for sure... but ata_is_disk_Active() is evil...
16:13:43JdGordonkeeping the ifdef means its more effort for people to use it
16:13:51bertrikI did test the patch on my sansa e200 and on the sim (e200)
16:14:15peturJdGordon: was talking in general, haven't looked at that function in particular
16:14:19bertrikMaybe I should have tested it on a some more sims.
16:14:57JdGordonits not really such a big deal.. it just would have been nicer removing the funciotn than stubbing it
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16:15:06*JdGordon is cranky tonight
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16:16:37bertrikI do plan to work on the battery bench plugin which is currently the last plugin to use the ata_disk_is_active call
16:17:00*petur wonders if they will offer also for beer
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16:21:28markunBagder: do you think we should allow the git repo to be pushed to and then sync subversion?
16:21:31Nico_PJdGordon: is the ata idle callback safe for use now?
16:22:22JdGordonshould be
16:22:29JdGordonwhen was it not safe?
16:22:34markunNico_P: what do you think?
16:22:58Nico_PJdGordon: I'm not sure, but its use is disabled in buffering.c ATM
16:23:05JdGordonNico_P: oh, your talking about for flash targets? not really sure
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16:24:22bertrikthe ata idle callbacks are installed as one-shot events that remove themselves, so a panic occurs when you try to unregister the ata idle callback explicitly
16:24:41Nico_Pmarkun: it's not on the agenda IIUC, and I wouldn't really be in favor of it
16:25:18markunNico_P: it's just as easy to set it up to with with git-svn dcommit?
16:25:36markun(1st with -> work)
16:26:53JdGordonbertrik: yeah, i dont agree that it shuold be panicinig
16:27:14Nico_Pmarkun: I think git-svn is rather meant for a single developer
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16:27:49Nico_PI don't think it could be used to push back commits like that
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16:28:18Nico_Pwhat we'd need for dual VCS is really git-svnserver
16:29:38markunbut does that exist?
16:29:47Nico_Pnot yet unfortunately
16:30:08shyam_khi i just thought of buying a new hardware mainly to hear music,read some books while iriver models good enough to play with rockbox? or which one would be the best to play with gnu in embedded?
16:30:29Nico_Pit was planned at one point, but I think it got dropped... there is a git-cvsserver though
16:30:33shyam_ki mean gnu friendly hardware..?
16:31:42Nico_Pshyam_k: are you aware that rockbox isn't related to GNU besides using the GPL?
16:32:11markunshyam_k: I don't know what you are asking exactly. Rockbox runs on the iriver H1xx, H3xx and H10.
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16:32:59peturshyam_k: the iriver h1x0/h3x0 are great rockbox targets, personally I do not like the H10 much
16:33:13peturjust spotted some on ebay today
16:33:34Dangalariohi is rockbox ported for pc yet?
16:33:40Dangalariorockbox on pc :D
16:33:53krazykitDangalario, you can use the simulators.
16:33:54shyam_koh ok.. thanks i think i can read more on the site too..
16:34:05markunshyam_k: or do you mean you want to port rockbox to a new device?
16:34:19Dangalarioi was more thinking a pc version that runs native supports pc screenmodes etc
16:34:24shyam_kmarkun: no not this time may be later:)
16:34:40markunDangalario: someone is working on "rockbox as an app"
16:35:01Dangalariooh not operating system?
16:35:46Nico_Phehe, we should try "rockbox as a PC OS" :p
16:35:59Dangalarioi was thinking since its so user friendly it would be a good alternative for those who don't understand linux
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16:36:52Nico_PDangalario: in all seriousness, rockbox is meant for DAPs
16:37:14markunDangalario: and I was talking about
16:37:31Nico_Prockbox wouldn't be very useful as an OS
16:37:52Dangalarioi beg to differ
16:38:02Dangalarioif someone ports stuff like wine over to it
16:38:06Dangalarioit would be a killer
16:38:29Dangalarioit would be the fastest os ever
16:39:11Nico_PDangalario: there's no point
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16:40:14Nico_Pa PC OS is a million times more complex than rockbox will ever be
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16:40:54BigBambiDangalario: You couldn't do anything on it
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16:45:43Dangalariowell say a port of wine with rockbox pc os
16:45:53Dangalarioand a simple gui
16:46:35Dangalarioand media capabilities are built in
16:46:42Dangalariocool thing
16:46:44Nico_Prockbox has no drivers for common pc hardware... someone would have to start by writing those
16:46:48markunDangalario: please..
16:46:59Dangalarioahh i forgot about that part sorry
16:47:04Dangalariopc has millions of drivers
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16:47:31Dangalarioi get the point
16:47:35Nico_PDangalario: it's simply not possible... rockbox is designed for embedded devices, not for PCs
16:48:13Dangalariobtw anyone opened up v2 e280 yet? im quite intrested in what cpu it runs on
16:48:51krazykitDangalario, please read the relevant thread in the New Ports forum
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16:52:59Nico_PLlorean: can you remind me what has to be done before we can enter feature freeze for the release? get a release manager, elect the RSB... anything else?
16:54:22LloreanNico_P: Assuming both of your fixes hold, I think that's it.
16:55:53Nico_Pdo we actually have to wait for the RSB to be elected to start the freeze?
16:56:30Nico_Poh, a tracker cleanup has to be done, too
16:56:33LloreanWe don't need to wait for the RSB.
16:56:49LloreanBut a tracker cleanup would be nice, we should give some time to see if the bugs (especially the out-of-order one) stay gone.
16:57:05LloreanI mean, even if the code starts getting bad again, we can roll back to a revision from July 1stish for the release anyway
16:57:06Nico_PI agree
16:58:46Nico_Palso, was there a discussion about bugfix releases (e.g. 3.0.1)?
16:59:32LloreanBasically just a "if it seems like it's needed, we'll do bugfix releases"
17:01:16Nico_Psounds reasonable
17:02:05Nico_PI see you set FS #8663 as due in 3.0... isn't that a bit ambitious?
17:02:48LloreanThe patch seems to be working, but needs more testing.
17:03:08Nico_Pah, I hadn't seen the latest comments
17:04:13LloreanAnyway, I think it's okay to be ambitious. Because at some point we're going to turn the opposite, and start very sharply cutting things out.
17:04:37LloreanAs long as we do the cutting, which is the part we lacked last time, ambition isn't too bad.
17:04:52Nico_Pare we hoping to include the USB stack?
17:05:05 Part LinusN
17:05:11LloreanThe disk corruption issue on Sansa may not be USB-only.
17:05:20LloreanAs to the USB stack, I'm not sure.
17:05:32LloreanIt depends on how people feel about marking some targets as "Release 3.0" and others as "Beta for 3.0"
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17:07:00LloreanThe PP targets all have a variety of quirks of one sort or another as it is, and I'd kinda like to just mark them as "Beta" so new users know they don't _really_ represent the whole version, and may have a longer "Known Issues" list
17:07:21LloreanIf we can do this, I'd happily include USB support with a known issue "it may not work on all USB ports, if it doesn't, reboot into the original firmware for transfers"
17:09:12Nico_Pusing 'beta' on some targets and not others sounds confusing
17:09:49Nico_PI agree on the principle, but I think the wording needs to be clearer
17:10:08LloreanWell it's only the principle I'm trying to sell at the moment. :)
17:10:18Nico_Pah, right
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17:10:58LloreanThe naming is something we can work out at any point, it's just whether we want to have one line (release / no release) or two lines (release / beta / no release)
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17:13:36Nico_PI think one line would be enough, with a warning that some targets have issues of their owm
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17:17:58Nico_Pis the gigabeat F battery discharge calibration still as unprecise as it used to be?
17:18:08LloreanI don't know.
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17:24:17markunNico_P: for me it looks ok, but I use a differnt battery
17:27:37Nico_Pit would be nice to have it at least remotely accurate for the release
17:28:20*Nico_P is very tempted to close FS #6056
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17:34:30markunNico_P: I think it's remotely accurate
17:39:57PaulJamNico_P: concerning 6056: i can't imagine a case where this couldn't be solved using conditional vewports by putting the image and the alternative text into separate conditional VPs.
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17:40:28Nico_PPaulJam: I agree, and I've closed the task
17:41:07Nico_PI hadn't thought of conditional viewports as a possible workaround though
17:41:32PaulJam(even before cond VPs there was a workaround using alternating sublines for that problem)
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18:21:21hackerboy1993hi all
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18:42:37xqtftqxCan somebody send me a dual boot gigabeat S loader?
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18:48:09BigBambixqtftqx: Not really - we don't have a licence to redistribute the Toshiba firmware
18:48:55BigBambiyou can create it yourself with the instructions on the wiki
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18:55:28xqtftqxBigBambi, thats the problem
18:55:37xqtftqxIt doesnt work for me
18:55:51BigBambiIt has worked for everybody else....
18:56:28xqtftqxI try to run mknkboot and i get "Permission Denied" and i dont know how to fix it
18:56:32BigBambiBut nonetheless, I'll happily help you with that, but I can't distribute a patched bootloader
18:56:38BigBambijust permission denied?
18:56:55xqtftqxbash mknkboot.c permission denied
18:57:53BigBambiwhat are the permissions on it?
18:57:54PaulJammknboot.c sounds like a source code file. you have to compile it first into an executable.
18:58:04BigBambimknkboot.c is the source, yes
18:58:15xqtftqxhow do i compile it into a executable?
18:58:27BigBambiSorry, I didn't read to closely - I sort of assumed you would have already compiled it if you were trying to run it
18:58:40xqtftqxisnt there a pre compiled one in there?
18:59:21BigBambigcc mknkboot.c -o mknkboot
18:59:30xqtftqxoh, i did, make mknkboot
18:59:57BigBambiso I'd suggest trying it using the executable not the source
19:00:34xqtftqxi had a executable before and i gave it toshiba firmware & rockbox
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19:00:54xqtftqxi got outputed a 12mb file, which is the size of the toshiba firmware and rockbox whouldnt load
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19:01:51BigBambiThat happens from time to time
19:02:04BigBambiNormally a restore followed by trying again sorts it
19:02:12xqtftqxHuh, ok
19:03:09xqtftqxHmmm, is the bootloader on the wiki up to date
19:03:29xqtftqxrockbox single boot
19:03:43BigBambiWhich page?
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19:04:16BigBambiI have no idea
19:04:27xqtftqxits got a bootloader.bin which says its meant to be used with mknkboot
19:07:35bertrikHm, I changed something in a .tex file but the diff on the rockbox mainpage is empty
19:08:41Lloreanbertrik: It looks like the change went through though
19:08:55LloreanAt least, if you manually compare the two files, you can see the changed peakmeter to peak meter
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19:10:01bertrikmaybe it doesn't show anything because the change was just whitespace within a single line
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19:11:02amiconnViewVC diff does ignore whitespace
19:11:16amiconnI don't know whether this is configurable per file format
19:15:27xqtftqxBigBambi: What do i have to do to fix the bootloader 12.4 mb file issue?
19:15:39BigBambiwhat issue?
19:16:25xqtftqxwhere it doesnt include the rockbox loader
19:18:42xqtftqxHuh, it sorta working now, if it goes wrong, is it possible to reinstall the bootloader without format the harddrive
19:19:00markunjust sorta?
19:19:24xqtftqxwell the byte size what up a little, i dont know if it will fix or not
19:19:34xqtftqxif it got included or not*
19:20:08xqtftqxso i want to try it but is there a way to go into recovery mode and restore the firmware with formating the hard drive?
19:20:49BigBambiif you can boot the OF you can try using sendfirm to send it again from there first
19:20:55BigBambiWhich won't format the drive
19:21:08xqtftqxso if it boots rockbox, i can use sendfirm?
19:21:25BigBambino, if it boots the OF
19:21:42BigBambiIf it boots Rockbox just copy the new bootloader onto the firmware partition
19:22:05xqtftqxOh, thanks, but im unable to compile sendfirm, i get tons of errors
19:22:32BigBambihave you got the dev packages for things like libusb and libmtp installed?
19:22:50xqtftqxim running ubuntu, its got them installed by default
19:22:59BigBambiI promise you it compiles just fine, and those errors will probably give you a clue what you need to install
19:23:03LloreanIt doesn't have the -dev ones installed by default.
19:23:04BigBambixqtftqx: No, it doesn't
19:23:18xqtftqxOh, how do install the devs
19:23:33BigBambiHowever you want, this isn't a linux help channel
19:23:55BigBambiUsing your package manager
19:26:30xqtftqxits compiled, my gigabeat put it self into recovery mode, can i use sendfirm to send the firmware? or do i have to use windows
19:27:03BigBambisendfirm will be fine
19:27:13xqtftqxok, i didnt know if whould work
19:29:26xqtftqxAnybody else have the problem where if the battery got to low like low enough not to show the little out of charge icon, it whould go into recovery mode?
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19:30:05BigBambiyes, it needs enough battery to be able to turn on
19:30:19BigBambiRecovery mode isn't magic, it still needs pozer
19:30:44xqtftqxno, like it completly runs out of charge, and you plug it in and it goes into recovery mode
19:31:07xqtftqxisnt the firmware update screen the recovery mode?
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19:31:37BigBambino, i haven't had that
19:31:57xqtftqxHuh, it happened to yesterday
19:32:13xqtftqxBtw BigBambi i figured out why the gigabeat locked up into read only
19:32:53xqtftqxhad to do with the linux .trash folder. so disabling the save trash on that device fixed it
19:36:01xqtftqxBigBambi: It worked now rockbox is loaded, thanks for your help
19:36:26BigBambino problem, glad you got it sorted
19:36:47xqtftqxWhould it be possible to combine 3 nk.bins?
19:36:52xqtftqxfor triple boot
19:37:24BigBambiwith what?
19:37:45xqtftqxidk, just wondering
19:38:09BigBambiWell unless you can think of something else to boot it with, what is the point
19:41:35xqtftqxUhh, whats with the ipod shuffle stuff in the wiki?
19:43:36Bagderxqtftqx: we do spell out words in this channel...
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20:37:53gevaertsDoes checkwps compile for other people ?
20:42:02***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
20:42:43*bertrik checks
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20:43:04*gevaerts starts bisecting
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20:44:12bertrikno, checkwps does not compile for me
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20:45:18pixelmabertrik: the coloured diff on the website doesn't show whitespace changes
20:45:39bertrikpixelma, ok, I figured that, thanks
20:46:07*pixelma should have read a bit further... sorry
20:48:54*gevaerts blames jdgordon
20:50:52gevaertsr17690 broke checkwps
20:51:54gevaertsgit is _nice_ for this
20:53:26*gevaerts has no idea on how to fix this, so it's off to flyspray
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20:58:06ipodanyone here from last nite
20:58:59ipodcan some one help me put doom on my ipod nano
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20:59:51pixelmagevaerts: that commit is not to everyone's likings anyway
21:00:07ipoddo i download it
21:00:12krazykitread the wiki page
21:01:29gevaertspixelma: I'm not going to take a position on that. WPS is totally outside my expertise, except that I want to fix my custom cabbie version
21:03:53PaulJam__gevaerts: you could use the uisim (with −−debugwps for more details)
21:04:11*gevaerts will try that
21:05:30*gevaerts points Ice`` to the topic
21:05:42Ice``gevaerts: I know that.
21:05:52Ice``But just read the news.
21:05:57gevaertsSo ?
21:06:24gevaertsYou violated at least two of the rules
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21:08:08 Quit Arathis ("Bye, bye")
21:08:21Ice``If that's true, this news is more important than my presence here. So I incur the possibility to be banned, and that's too bad.
21:09:07gevaertsBoth this news and your presence here are absolutely of zero importance to rockbox
21:10:27Ice``gevaerts: ... You seems to be of that people who think they are better than others.
21:11:02Ice``I don't want to have anything to do with you. I remember I ignored you for somethink you said to another user.
21:11:17Ice``I think I'll set the ignore once again.
21:11:29krazykitIce``, this is a rockbox-related channel. please take non-rockbox chatter elsewhere
21:11:38Ice``krazykit: I know that.
21:11:48LloreanIce``: Diablo has nothing at all to do with Rockbox.
21:11:53Ice``But I would like to help on a rockbox port
21:12:00Ice``(a specific one, yeah)
21:12:04Mode"#rockbox +o Llorean " by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
21:12:31 Join moos [0] (
21:14:55LloreanIce``: Do you intend to spam the channel like that in the future, or will you only post Rockbox related things?
21:15:41Ice``Llorean: If you want to kick/kb me out of there, I think you don't need my permission.
21:15:55Ice``But... I's a bit... rigid.
21:16:07LloreanI'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. Are you intelligent enough to realize we don't want that crap here, and willing to put up with the rules, or not?
21:16:43Ice``I now know you don't want anything here, but rockbox related stuff.
21:17:09LloreanYou already knew, you even admitted as such. I'm asking about your future actions, not your knowledge.
21:17:12*bluebrother goes for popcorn and looks at the new rbutil tasks in the tracker in the meanwhile
21:17:48Ice``I don't like rules but as long I'm not annoyed by someone who don't follow them and who is not moderated...
21:18:18PaulJam__Ice``: please read the IrcGuidelines linked tin the topic again and maybe you aunderstand why offtopic chatter is not desired here.
21:18:34moosIce: are you developer, and wanna port something to *rockbox*?
21:18:47LloreanIce``: Any member of the channel has the right to call to your attention when you aren't following the rules as posted in the topic.
21:19:19LloreanIce``: If you spam again, for example with another link to something so completely irrelevant to Rockbox, I'll be quite happy to be rid of you.
21:19:25Ice``PaulJam__ & others: I'm on irc since a very long time. I know all of that. If you want to play the coybow, get me out of here. Else, I doubt I'll annoy you again in the future.
21:19:26Mode"#rockbox +o Llorean " by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
21:19:31Ice``I've nothing to add.
21:19:48Mode"#rockbox -o Llorean " by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
21:20:35Ice``moos: and yes, I'm a developper, I would like to work on "Creative Zen V / V Plus rockbox port".
21:21:08moosIce: nice, then just please keep on topic
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21:22:08bluebrotherIce``: _if_ you are used to IRC since quite a long time, as you claim, why don't you accept channel rules? In that case you should be aware of that and know how annoying it can be if people constantly ignore it
21:22:17bluebrotherespecially if those people claim being used to irc.
21:22:49MTeemoos : you know arabic, right ?
21:23:28moosMTee: right, almost; but I don't now technical one
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21:25:21bertrikgevaerts, you fixed checkwps?
21:25:37gevaertsbertrik: no. I just updated my own wps
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21:29:17xqtftqxAnybody know if the calendar app is text based? or graphics based?
21:31:53bluebrotherwhat calendar app? The plugin in the tracker?
21:32:07xqtftqxno calendar.c
21:32:18PaulJami think the recorder has a calendar plugin.
21:32:28xqtftqxyes the recorder calendar
21:32:38moosbluebrother: for old archoses
21:32:45moosoops, too slow :)
21:33:09xqtftqxand why isnt it included with other builds?
21:33:22bluebrotherlooking at the code it draws lines −− so it's graphical
21:33:40moosxqftqx: feel free to port it to others targets...
21:34:33bluebrotherthere is a calender plugin for h300 at least in the tracker
21:34:46xqtftqxi know, just lookin around in the source
21:34:51moosyup an olddddd one
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21:48:28LloreanGuys, can I ask a favour (of those with the appropriate permissions). For now, if you see a bug or patch that you think is worth looking into for 3.0, set it as "Due in 3.0" so we have a sort of "high priority" list to look through for the moment?
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22:02:51*gevaerts wonders if the "bounty" bit on FeatureRequests should be there.
22:05:05bluebrothernah −− we don't want feature request anyway, do we? ;-)
22:05:24bluebrotherwould give some impression that it would make a difference (which I doubt it would)
22:06:28gevaertsThat's my impression too. And when people actually suggest that they would pay for something, that idea is not always welcomed
22:06:45Genre9mp3bluebrother: you mean we don't wan't playstation emulator on h100s, as well?
22:06:51*Genre9mp3 oh noes!
22:07:05bluebrotherI only want that coffee maker plugin!
22:07:21gevaertsHas there actually ever been a successful bounty-driven patch for rockbox ?
22:09:15amiconndomonoky: Is that literal "/" the correct way to separate path components in Qt? I'd expect some kind of path separator macro, as that character usually differs between OSes
22:11:28bluebrotheramiconn: no, Qt internally uses /. It can cope with the \ too btw.
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22:11:57*amiconn wonders whether the macos path separator is still ":"
22:12:21*gevaerts guesses not. The bsd base would not like that too much
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22:12:48bluebrotheras \ is an escape character I pretty much prefer using / ...
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22:28:00*gevaerts removed the bounty hint from the wiki
22:28:46bluebrotherhmm, checkwps was also broken by r17763
22:30:29 Quit moos ("Rockbox rules the DAP world")
22:30:30pixelmathan that's not the only thing r17763 broke
22:31:12*gevaerts doesn't like checkwps being broken by those commits that actually make it useful
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22:34:07*bluebrother neither
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22:41:37PaulJam_i think for WPS designers checkwps is pretty much useless, since the uisim does the same and addditionaly serves as a preview. the only use i see in checkwps would be for automated checking of multiple WPS for compatibility (for example to mark them as broken).
22:42:07***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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22:46:51bluebrotherPaulJam_: well, running checkwps for checking about basic syntax errors is faster than opening it in the sim.
22:47:01bluebrotherso I think it isn't useless at all
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22:57:47pixelmabluebrother: but I agree with PaulJam_ about the different use(r)s
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23:04:32bertrikI like the idea of automated wps checking. Maybe a similar thing can be done for patches in the tracker, so a patch submitter gets something like a "rotten patch alert" when a patch no longer applies.
23:06:49stripwaxI like the idea of automated emails to tell the patch author when a patch no longer applies cleanly but i fear it would be unworkable and generated waaaay too much noise (and spam)
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23:11:04*gevaerts likes the idea of beer
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23:15:48*bertrik tries to understand what some parts of the battery bench plugin are supposed to do
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23:22:15gevaertsSeeing r17931, could there be an easy way to get the volume range for the manual from VOLUME_MIN and VOLUME_MAX ?
23:24:34*pixelma wonders why it wasn't filled out and where tucoz reappeared from
23:24:44pixelmathough not here
23:25:06BagderI hear he has risen from the dead!
23:25:42bluebrotheroh, he went down to the hades? And I thought he just went to the user-side for a while.
23:25:46Bagderwell, from the idle ones anyway
23:26:17Bagderit's hard to tell the difference at times ;-)
23:26:48*gevaerts sees dead idle users
23:27:10bluebrotherindeed, all those users are dead ;-)
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23:29:23uhmgawacould I get edit perm for ?
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23:29:28*preglow idles
23:29:49bluebrotheruhmgawa: what's your real name?
23:30:44gevaertsSeriously though, it would be great to get all sorts of things (this, the button mappings,...) directly from the source
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