| 00:00:55 | obo | rasher: my c220 mentioned Audible on the back, but was a V1 |
| 00:01:14 | rasher | obo: okay, so there's some uncertainty either way |
| 00:02:03 | | Join cbr|w [0] (n=cbr@212.98.160.130) |
| 00:02:38 | Keripo | Hm, page doesn't seem to give enough info -> http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?sku_id=0665000FS10079592 |
| 00:03:30 | BigBambi | Unfortunately, the only sure way is to check the original firmware version |
| 00:04:42 | BigBambi | However, as agaffney said, the strong likelihood is that if it is new, it is a v2 |
| 00:05:35 | | Quit robin0800_ (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- *I* use it, so it must be good!") |
| 00:05:59 | Keripo | Review: "Amazing price on sale. Overall I am very happy with it, but was disappointed it couldn't be rockbox'd because it is a v2" <- Well, there goes my hopes ; / |
| 00:06:55 | | Quit CyBergRind|w (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) |
| 00:06:58 | Keripo | Well, thanks anyway everyone for the info. Guess I'll go eBay hunting then |
| 00:07:44 | | Quit Nibbl (Remote closed the connection) |
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| 00:08:44 | | Quit nplus (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 00:08:49 | Keripo | Well, scratch that - a few other reviews discuss how they enjoy using Rockbox on it. I'll just end up keeping the receipt and hoping. |
| 00:12:27 | | Quit PaulJam_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
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| 00:18:38 | | Quit obo ("bye") |
| 00:19:32 | fiXXXerMet | How do I transfer music to my device? When I connect it to my computer, it boots into the stock firmware. |
| 00:19:48 | Nico_P | fiXXXerMet: which device is it? |
| 00:19:59 | fiXXXerMet | sansa e260r |
| 00:21:09 | Keripo | fiXXXerMet: Rockbox can operate as a file browser I believe, so you can just copy the files over directly and play them in Rockbox. The normal requires the Sansa software for it to recognize copied over music |
| 00:21:15 | Nico_P | then it's normal that it reboots into the OF when you plug USB in. Rockbox doesn't (officially) do the USB yet. You can transfer files with the OF |
| 00:21:53 | fiXXXerMet | OF? |
| 00:22:25 | fiXXXerMet | I have a few hundred songs on there now and I don't see them in the drive that shows up. |
| 00:22:28 | fiXXXerMet | I see the .rockbox folder |
| 00:22:41 | PaulJam | OF = original firmware |
| 00:22:46 | fiXXXerMet | I'll try dragging them to that drive |
| 00:22:48 | fiXXXerMet | Oh ok |
| 00:22:59 | fiXXXerMet | Well where are the songs that are on there now? |
| 00:23:01 | fiXXXerMet | How can I manage them? |
| 00:23:24 | | Quit ender` (" A man without religion is like a fish without a bike.") |
| 00:23:31 | Keripo | From what I've read, Sansa hides the MUSIC folder so turn on hidden folders on your computer |
| 00:23:41 | fiXXXerMet | oh |
| 00:23:42 | fiXXXerMet | duh :) |
| 00:23:52 | fiXXXerMet | I have window on here and haven't in so long |
| 00:24:02 | Keripo | your Sansa probably came with a software CD that had the program for managing the music, content, etc |
| 00:24:08 | | Join andrewbeveridge [0] (i=andrew@88-111-142-51.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 00:24:20 | fiXXXerMet | Music folder was hidden |
| 00:24:21 | fiXXXerMet | heh |
| 00:24:47 | fiXXXerMet | Thank you much |
| 00:26:04 | andrewbeveridge | hello |
| 00:26:36 | andrewbeveridge | is anybody here part of the people who chatted to me a few days ago about wma file playing problems? |
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| 00:53:37 | | Quit Zarggg () |
| 00:54:24 | * | andrewbeveridge is a little impatient |
| 00:54:50 | | Part Lars_G |
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| 00:56:21 | Nico_P | PaulJam: I just managed to reproduce FS #9137 with an MPC album on the sim |
| 00:56:31 | Nico_P | it caused early skipping |
| 00:56:44 | PaulJam | good to hear |
| 01:00 |
| 01:01:45 | | Part Keripo |
| 01:02:18 | linuxstb | andrewbeveridge: If you have a question, why not just ask? |
| 01:05:51 | andrewbeveridge | hmmm? sorry, I don't really have a question - I'm just hoping/waiting for one of two people to come online :) |
| 01:06:21 | andrewbeveridge | they already answered my question two/three days ago |
| 01:09:13 | andrewbeveridge | saratoga is really the only person who can help me, as far as I know he is the only person who has a working knowledge of his own code, so he alone can solve the problem with the wma decoding fault. |
| 01:10:29 | | Quit pedrov ("leaving") |
| 01:13:38 | linuxstb | andrewbeveridge: If saratoga isn't here now, he may read the logs later (or others can point him to the logs), which is why it makes sense to just ask your question. But other people know the WMA codec - e.g. I wrote most of the ASF parsing code in it. |
| 01:14:11 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 01:16:03 | Nico_P | PaulJam: I think I've got it |
| 01:16:06 | andrewbeveridge | Ah ok I don't really have a question as such, I just wanted to know if there was any news about debugging it, or perhaps find out if there is anything I can do myself... |
| 01:17:33 | PaulJam | \o/ |
| 01:17:52 | Nico_P | PaulJam: it's actually a very stupid one... you'll see the fix is a one-liner |
| 01:18:11 | PaulJam | tell me if i should test anything |
| 01:18:17 | BigBambi | andrewbeveridge: You will find in general that usually more than one person know parts of the code - especially when they had a large hand in it, such as linuxstb and wma |
| 01:18:36 | Nico_P | PaulJam: I'll commit the fix in a minute and you can make sure it's actually good :) |
| 01:19:06 | PaulJam | ok, thank you! |
| 01:19:08 | BigBambi | andrewbeveridge: But debugging it suggests a problem, and I suspect others would be interested to know what that problm is |
| 01:19:40 | Nico_P | PaulJam: thank *you* :) It was a bad bad bug in the buffering code, good thing you found it |
| 01:20:07 | PaulJam | well, actually my bugreport was a duplicate :) |
| 01:20:52 | andrewbeveridge | Yeah sorry I suppose I didn't think like that - the problem was that the latest ffmpeg build plays my wma files fine, but rockbox plays the same files badly, with gap every few seconds, producing a "skipping" effect. |
| 01:20:55 | | Quit shotofadds ("yay for bed!") |
| 01:21:25 | linuxstb | andrewbeveridge: Was your problem file "doors-test.wma", or am I confusing your problem with someone else's? |
| 01:21:38 | | Join n17ikh [0] (n=n17ikh-@c-76-23-106-132.hsd1.sc.comcast.net) |
| 01:21:41 | Nico_P | PaulJam: of FS #8194? |
| 01:23:31 | PaulJam | Nico_P: yes, i think this is the same issue |
| 01:23:38 | Nico_P | I think so too |
| 01:23:44 | andrewbeveridge | linuxstb: someone else's - my example file was named "Biffy Clyro - Machines [Faulty] ~70kbps VBR.wma" |
| 01:23:54 | andrewbeveridge | http://tinyurl.com/rockbox |
| 01:24:17 | PaulJam | just triggered a bit different by skipping back instead of resinding |
| 01:24:24 | PaulJam | *rewinding |
| 01:24:51 | Nico_P | yeah, same thing |
| 01:25:59 | linuxstb | andrewbeveridge: Ah yes, I remember now. It has corruptions when I play it with (quite an old version of) mplayer as well... |
| 01:26:44 | Nico_P | PaulJam: committed :) |
| 01:26:57 | linuxstb | andrewbeveridge: Did you (or do you know if someone else) tested it with the very latest ffmpeg wma decoder? |
| 01:28:30 | andrewbeveridge | linuxstb: no, however the ffmpeg executable on my computer (http://tinyurl.com/rockboxdebugging/ffmpeg) decodes the file perfectly on my laptop and my server |
| 01:30:40 | * | linuxstb downloads it |
| 01:33:31 | linuxstb | andrewbeveridge: That's pretty new - built on 16th June 2008... |
| 01:33:38 | andrewbeveridge | yep |
| 01:33:50 | andrewbeveridge | saratoga assured me that was the build he used though |
| 01:35:15 | linuxstb | And the file didn't decode correctly for him? |
| 01:35:47 | andrewbeveridge | I'm not sure |
| 01:36:01 | andrewbeveridge | hold on - http://www.rockbox.org/irc/log-20080714 |
| 01:36:47 | andrewbeveridge | around 2:00 |
| 01:37:39 | | Quit bertrik (Remote closed the connection) |
| 01:38:29 | andrewbeveridge | o.O there have been two releases since that build! |
| 01:38:40 | andrewbeveridge | http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=205275&package_id=248632 |
| 01:39:35 | | Quit Bensawsome (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 01:39:59 | linuxstb | That sounds like it might be the bug fixed in r11115 of ffmpeg... |
| 01:41:10 | | Quit tvelocity ("Αποχώρησε") |
| 01:42:13 | | Part pixelma |
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| 01:43:32 | | Quit desowin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 01:44:34 | andrewbeveridge | linuxstb: could you give me a link to more information about said bug? where are you finding that? |
| 01:44:54 | Nico_P | PaulJam: have you tested? |
| 01:45:27 | PaulJam | Nico_P: yes, so far it looks good :) |
| 01:45:44 | linuxstb | andrewbeveridge: I'm looking at the ffmpeg svn log here - http://svn.mplayerhq.hu/ffmpeg/trunk/libavcodec/wmadec.c?view=log |
| 01:45:45 | Nico_P | great :) |
| 01:45:52 | linuxstb | But I tried that fix in Rockbox, and it made no difference... |
| 01:46:00 | | Join desowin [0] (n=desowin@atheme/member/desowin) |
| 01:46:47 | andrewbeveridge | does my ffmpeg executable decode the file perfectly for you? |
| 01:47:01 | linuxstb | I haven't tried - I'll do that now... |
| 01:47:05 | andrewbeveridge | thanks |
| 01:48:34 | linuxstb | Yes, it seems fine. |
| 01:49:04 | linuxstb | I get the same "Multiple frames in a packet from stream 0" warning that Llorean reported though. |
| 01:49:19 | linuxstb | Which may give us a clue... |
| 01:50:01 | andrewbeveridge | same here, but definitley confirmed that ffmpeg build 13378 decodes the file fine. now, if the wma decoder for rockbox was taken from that same build, there must be a bug in the rockbox-created code which is causing the problem, right? |
| 01:50:55 | linuxstb | The wma decoder itself was taken from ffmpeg (with major changes), but the other part of the codec (the ASF parser) was written from scratch (mostly by me), and may well be buggy. |
| 01:51:47 | andrewbeveridge | ah ok - um what does the asf parser do, in layman's terms? |
| 01:52:21 | andrewbeveridge | i thought asf was just for streaming media? |
| 01:52:26 | linuxstb | asf is the container format that wma files use. |
| 01:52:53 | | Nick Seedy is now known as Seed (i=ben@bzq-84-108-237-178.cablep.bezeqint.net) |
| 01:52:56 | linuxstb | SO the asf parser extracts the WMA packets from the ASF file, and passes them to the wma decoder itself. |
| 01:53:22 | linuxstb | Even though WMA files are generally called ".wma", they are ASF files. |
| 01:53:41 | andrewbeveridge | right - so if the asf parser fails, the wma bytes are taken from the wrong parts of the file on disk? it gets the file structure wrong? |
| 01:53:53 | linuxstb | Yes. |
| 01:54:20 | linuxstb | "multiple frames in a packet" is relatively rare (I think), so that part of the code isn't well tested. |
| 01:54:47 | andrewbeveridge | right... um is there any way to test the "majorly modified" rockbox wma decoder itself? I mean, to narrow the cause of the problem don to the asf parser |
| 01:55:25 | | Join D9762862 [0] (n=j_dan_81@219-89-246-245.adsl.xtra.co.nz) |
| 01:55:33 | D9762862 | hello |
| 01:56:00 | D9762862 | does rockbox work on an 80gb video? Thanks. |
| 01:56:14 | scorche|sh | as long as it is a video and not a "classic", yes |
| 01:56:26 | scorche|sh | as the front page should say |
| 01:56:36 | D9762862 | hmm, mines a classic, is it a no go? |
| 01:56:43 | andrewbeveridge | linuxstb: how frustrating - a quick google for "multiple frames in a packet" +wma returns nothing but the rockbox irc log |
| 01:57:00 | scorche|sh | D9762862: if it is a classic, then yes...as i just said |
| 01:57:01 | D9762862 | could you suggest any other programs? thanks. |
| 01:57:06 | scorche|sh | no i cant |
| 01:57:15 | D9762862 | thanks shitty bums. |
| 01:57:26 | linuxstb | You're welcome. |
| 01:57:31 | scorche|sh | ... |
| 01:57:38 | D9762862 | have a great day. |
| 01:57:40 | | Part D9762862 |
| 01:57:40 | | Join toffe82_ [0] (n=chatzill@h-74-0-180-178.snvacaid.covad.net) |
| 01:57:48 | scorche|sh | he sure was a friendly chap |
| 01:58:01 | andrewbeveridge | What the hell can people not read the FAQ lol... friendly |
| 01:58:18 | | Quit toffe82_ (Remote closed the connection) |
| 02:00 |
| 02:02:48 | | Quit Nico_P (Remote closed the connection) |
| 02:03:07 | | Quit perrikwp ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client") |
| 02:07:49 | | Quit nplus (Remote closed the connection) |
| 02:11:58 | andrewbeveridge | linuxstb: how could I help figure out the problem with the asf parser then, as it would seem to be the most likely cause of the problem. what language are we talking about here? I'm only experienced in PHP and Java, never got round to learning C. |
| 02:12:22 | linuxstb | andrewbeveridge: I've been looking at your file, and am starting to think the asf parser is working fine, and the problem must be in the decoder... I'm trying to debug things now, and compare our source to ffmpeg |
| 02:12:22 | BigBambi | C |
| 02:12:59 | andrewbeveridge | ok great, thanks - again, is there any way I can help, or shall I just sit back and encourage? :) |
| 02:13:06 | andrewbeveridge | BigBambi: ? |
| 02:13:21 | andrewbeveridge | BigBambi: oh, right. C. Thanks :) |
| 02:13:26 | BigBambi | andrewbeveridge: you asked what language |
| 02:13:33 | BigBambi | :) |
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| 02:30:51 | | Quit faemir ("Leaving") |
| 02:31:50 | | Part Rasi |
| 02:33:36 | num1 | has there ever been a discussion about using git for rockbox? |
| 02:34:00 | BigBambi | occasionally |
| 02:34:25 | BigBambi | But the majority feel there isn't really a need, although there is a git mirror now I think |
| 02:34:43 | num1 | do you know the address of the mirror? |
| 02:35:41 | BigBambi | not sure |
| 02:36:02 | BigBambi | You could try checking the IRC logs, there was some discussion here |
| 02:36:14 | num1 | alright, thanks |
| 02:37:39 | BigBambi | http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/GitVersionControl but I think there is now a more official mirror than the one mentioned there. I wasn't really following the discussion however |
| 02:38:00 | soap | cd .. |
| 02:38:02 | soap | oops |
| 02:39:56 | num1 | lol @soap |
| 02:42:32 | | Join Davide-NYC [0] (n=chatzill@static-68-161-224-151.ny325.east.verizon.net) |
| 02:43:31 | BigBambi | num1: git://svn.rockbox.org/rockbox |
| 02:43:42 | BigBambi | num1: see logs on 2008/07/03 |
| 02:43:52 | Davide-NYC | quick (irrelevant) bug report: the FAQ link does not appear on sidebar on http://www.rockbox.org/download/ |
| 02:44:19 | Llorean | Y'know, one thing that never came up in the Git vs SVN debate for Rockbox, is that the SVN revision numbers are really useful when providing support. |
| 02:45:03 | Llorean | Davide-NYC: I think the patch tracker has a webpage category, you probably should post it there since those who can fix it aren't around. |
| 02:45:34 | linuxstb | It's probably more likely to get changed if you just grab Bagder when he's around though... |
| 02:45:39 | num1 | BigBambiL thank you for the links |
| 02:45:50 | scorche|sh | or Zagor |
| 02:46:14 | Davide-NYC | llorean: no such bug category? |
| 02:47:10 | Davide-NYC | Also, the sidebar contains a link to requests portion of the tracker, which I see is hidden otherwise. Good to know there's still a way to post a feature request, even though noone would see it. :) |
| 02:47:35 | Llorean | Davide-NYC: We don't *want* people posting feature requests... |
| 02:47:48 | Davide-NYC | I know, that was a joke. |
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| 03:00 |
| 03:06:17 | | Quit vort3x (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
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| 03:13:08 | n17ikh | so when the screen blanks do the subsystems that do things like scroll text and refresh the WPS and run the peak meters stop? |
| 03:13:38 | | Join EspeonEefi [0] (i=espeonee@CERULEANCITY.MIT.EDU) |
| 03:14:16 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 03:14:39 | andrewbeveridge | linuxstb: any luck? :) any particular bit of code you are looking at? I'm just skimming through wmadeci.c - I've never technically learned C but it all makes sense having spent the past few years working in Java... |
| 03:14:56 | Llorean | n17ikh: What do you mean "blanks"? Most players just turn the backlight off, but don't clear the screen. |
| 03:15:04 | n17ikh | I see. |
| 03:15:19 | n17ikh | actually, I'm thinking of the h10 which I haven't used in forever |
| 03:15:33 | n17ikh | I remember rockbox having an option about blanking or something after the backlight shuts off |
| 03:16:25 | | Join ecl [0] (n=felipe@unaffiliated/ecl) |
| 03:24:02 | n17ikh | I've gotta say, the keymaps on the c200 series are pretty good |
| 03:24:11 | n17ikh | I actually like it a good deal better than the e200 |
| 03:24:18 | n17ikh | tiny screen notwithstanding |
| 03:24:24 | | Part ecl |
| 03:24:32 | Llorean | I think the e200 one allows much more consistent access to the functionality of Rockbox. |
| 03:25:00 | Llorean | Have you tried Pixelma's alternate c200 keymap yet? |
| 03:25:05 | n17ikh | not yet |
| 03:25:16 | n17ikh | I just started playing with the c200, it's been sitting on my desk for a month |
| 03:25:25 | n17ikh | getting ready for a long trip |
| 03:25:38 | n17ikh | my e200's battery is either not charging or dying really quickly |
| 03:25:45 | n17ikh | or is reporting wrong voltages to rockbox |
| 03:26:40 | andrewbeveridge | anybody else here know enough about the rockbox wma decoder to know how to bugfix? |
| 03:29:50 | Llorean | andrewbeveridge: Seriously, you don't need to ask about it every 15 minutes. For one thing, a lot of our devs are European, so are on the verge of, or in the middle of, sleep right now. |
| 03:30:14 | Llorean | For another, you've already more or less talked with everyone who's involved in the WMA codec, anyway. |
| 03:30:23 | andrewbeveridge | yeah, good point, sorry - though it would be nice if they told me before leaving/sleeping |
| 03:30:48 | n17ikh | Does anyone know if the c200 still charges when it's off? |
| 03:30:55 | | Join massiveH [0] (n=massiveH@ool-44c48a1e.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 03:31:23 | Llorean | andrewbeveridge: What's the hurry? |
| 03:32:47 | andrewbeveridge | my sister's birthday - I bought the ipod for her, and my/our entire music collection was converted using the same program, so unless I go to the lengthy/lossy process of converting them all, I have no tracks to put on it before wrapping it up :) |
| 03:34:00 | Llorean | Seems to me then, you can solve your own problem by re-encoding the tracks from the original material. It'll get fixed when it get fixed, but it seems somewhat negative to pester other people to do work sooner because you don't want to do extra work. |
| 03:34:38 | Llorean | If you've filed a bug report, and talked to the appropriate devs, then really the best thing you can do is either work on it yourself, or wait for them to request more information from you. |
| 03:35:15 | | Quit fdinel ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org") |
| 03:35:17 | n17ikh | would she notice if you converted lossy tracks to say, mp3 v0? |
| 03:35:31 | | Quit DerDome (Nick collision from services.) |
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| 03:35:34 | n17ikh | and then went back and replaced them once the decoder was fixed |
| 03:35:44 | | Nick DerDome1 is now known as DerDome (n=DerDome@dslb-082-083-221-019.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 03:38:42 | andrewbeveridge | yeah, i'm not going to do any more pestering ;) I was really hoping somebody could point me in the right direction to help myself - I understand the source code pretty well, I just lack a starting point. Sadly there is no original material. |
| 03:38:43 | andrewbeveridge | If I still had my original collection (all FLAC, on a 500GB external hard drive), I would never have asked here, I would simply have re-encoded to MP3 or Vorbis, my sister couldnt care less what format the music is in as long as the compression ratio is high enough for the entire 3000-ish tracks to fit on the 4GB ipod. |
| 03:40:19 | andrewbeveridge | I think thats what I'm going to end up doing - converting them all to MP3 - in fact I've already started. I was just reluctant to do so because I've never managed to find a way to achieve transparent WMA -> MP3 conversion (obviously, they are both lossy) |
| 03:42:58 | | Quit neddy ("Leaving.") |
| 03:44:22 | | Nick fyre^OS is now known as fyrestorm (n=fyre@cpe-68-173-172-243.nyc.res.rr.com) |
| 03:45:17 | PaulJam | if you want to use low bitrates then i think mp3 is not the best choice. ogg vorbis and mpc are said to give better results at lower bitrates. |
| 03:46:19 | | Quit PaulJam (".") |
| 03:46:35 | Llorean | I thought MPC was tuned for mid-to-higher bitrates. |
| 03:47:05 | andrewbeveridge | Vorbis is clearly the best lossy format for several reasons, including compression ratio, but until now I hadn't found any portable media player compatible with anything other than MP3 and WMA. |
| 03:54:52 | scorche | nothing is "clearly" the best format, but this is getting offtopic... |
| 03:55:25 | andrewbeveridge | topic aside, i can't see any disadvantages of ogg vorbis |
| 03:57:54 | massiveH | slightly more cpu usage |
| 03:58:06 | scorche | there is no "topic aside" here |
| 03:58:33 | andrewbeveridge | ok end discussion, sorry. |
| 04:00 |
| 04:16:33 | midgey | hmm, still not having any luck on fixing the abort issue on my mac |
| 04:16:53 | midgey | strange thing is, i could build rbspeexenc fine yesterday |
| 04:18:15 | midgey | i uninstalled and reinstalled xcode (plus libraries and headers), reran rockboxdev.sh, and built GNU make from source |
| 04:18:34 | midgey | i can build sim and target builds for gigabeat fine |
| 04:19:16 | midgey | if anyone has any ideas on what I should try, i'm all ears |
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| 05:28:03 | * | midgey figured it out |
| 05:28:42 | midgey | r18002 breaks "make voice" on mac (well, mine at least) |
| 05:29:09 | midgey | I'm running 10.4.11, and the abort comes from the -arch flag |
| 05:30:04 | midgey | for me, $ARCH is empty and using the -arch flag followed by nothing causes an abort |
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| 06:14:29 | wpyh | hi |
| 06:14:41 | wpyh | is anyone working on a big-icon-based menu? |
| 06:14:56 | wpyh | I mean like, right now RB's menu is just a "list" basically |
| 06:15:04 | wpyh | is anyone interested in something with big icons? |
| 06:15:12 | * | wpyh is just suggesting an UI |
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| 06:30:46 | Llorean | wpyh: This has been requested before, but it needs to be blind friendly, not slow things down, and not make the binary huge. So the general feeling is "show us a patch and we'll think about it" I think |
| 06:31:14 | wpyh | hm... ok |
| 06:31:29 | | Quit Llorean (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 06:31:36 | wpyh | doesn't go into my TODO list since I (currently) don't know how I would go about implementing it |
| 06:31:48 | | Join Llorean [0] (n=DarkkOne@adsl-70-241-20-198.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net) |
| 06:32:17 | wpyh | for it to be blind-friendly, doesn't it just need to have the same text as the regular menu? |
| 06:33:03 | wpyh | the only differences are: 1) icons are not vertically laid out, but horizontally, and 2) the icons are bigger, and 3) there is a scroll bar |
| 06:35:12 | Llorean | Navigating in a line (list) is easier blind than navigating in a grid, too. |
| 06:35:26 | wpyh | um... |
| 06:35:38 | wpyh | well, what we have in mind may be different |
| 06:35:47 | wpyh | :) |
| 06:36:00 | wpyh | what I have in mind is, for example there are 9 icons |
| 06:36:07 | Llorean | You're navigating on two axis instead of simply one. |
| 06:36:12 | wpyh | with the current menu system, it's laid out vertically |
| 06:36:27 | wpyh | with the new big-icon menu system, it goes like this: 1 2 3\n4 5 6\n7 8 9 |
| 06:36:48 | wpyh | and "forward" goes from 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 to 5 .. .and so on |
| 06:36:54 | wpyh | backward goes the other way round |
| 06:37:04 | Llorean | In that case, what benefit does it offer? |
| 06:37:12 | wpyh | the benefit is big icons |
| 06:37:19 | Llorean | What functional benefit is that? |
| 06:37:30 | Llorean | In almost every screen but the main menu, the icons are repetitive. |
| 06:37:33 | wpyh | no functional benefit, just looks good |
| 06:38:09 | wpyh | it will drive people to draw new icons |
| 06:38:16 | wpyh | that won't make the binary big, would it? |
| 06:38:17 | Llorean | I don't know if you can easily justify a complication of the menuing system for a reason as trivial as that, though, especially since not everyone will agree it looks good. |
| 06:38:42 | Llorean | It will make the binary larger than it is, and it will mean that you need an entire new version of the list drawing code for big-icon lists. |
| 06:40:24 | Llorean | If it streamlined the interface by allowing improved navigation methods, that'd be something else. But Rockbox really can't accommodate every aesthetic change someone thinks is a good idea, or it'd quickly snowball into something rather large and ungainly. |
| 06:41:02 | wpyh | hm... |
| 06:41:15 | | Join iceowl [0] (n=iceowl@i216-58-80-207.cybersurf.com) |
| 06:41:18 | wpyh | are you saying that any menu system will be the only menu system in RB? |
| 06:41:48 | wpyh | what I'm thinking is that the current menu system can and should stay, while we add an option to switch to the new menu system |
| 06:42:09 | Llorean | Which makes it even worse because then you have redundant code with no functional benefit. |
| 06:42:54 | wpyh | the code is loaded dynamically, so it shouldn't increase the binsize |
| 06:42:59 | iceowl | is there such a thing as a Go app for rockbox? |
| 06:43:18 | Llorean | wpyh: There's no dynamic memory allocation. |
| 06:43:25 | Llorean | iceowl: "Go app" as in the game? |
| 06:43:31 | iceowl | yes |
| 06:43:35 | Llorean | Not included |
| 06:43:36 | wpyh | which brings the question of... is it possible to make the interface separate from the core? |
| 06:43:39 | Llorean | iceowl: there might be one in the tracker |
| 06:43:47 | | Quit troy_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 06:43:54 | iceowl | tracker? as in torrent? |
| 06:44:00 | Llorean | iceowl: No, the patch tracker... |
| 06:44:12 | iceowl | oh |
| 06:44:37 | wpyh | Llorean: or make it selectable as a config option, and RB chooses which one to load on boot |
| 06:44:42 | Llorean | wpyh: The real question is how much work would that take, would it lower performance, and would it make the code harder to maintain. |
| 06:44:45 | wpyh | this way we don't need maloc() |
| 06:44:58 | wpyh | hmm.... you're being practical here |
| 06:45:01 | Llorean | Then you'd need to reboot to change themes. |
| 06:45:14 | wpyh | Llorean: no, no need to reboot to change themes |
| 06:45:26 | wpyh | we just need to reboot to switch between menu items |
| 06:45:32 | Llorean | Yes |
| 06:45:39 | Llorean | And if your theme uses small icons... |
| 06:45:49 | Llorean | Themes already include iconsets of varying sizes. |
| 06:45:50 | iceowl | huzzah, looks like there |
| 06:46:00 | iceowl | there's lots of stuff in the patches |
| 06:46:04 | wpyh | well, the themes can support just one menu system, or both |
| 06:46:29 | wpyh | I think it would be a *lot* of work, which is why I'm not volunteering, but I'd certainly be interested in it |
| 06:46:52 | Llorean | wpyh: I can't see this being practical. |
| 06:47:04 | wpyh | it might lower the performance somewhat because of another layer of indirection, but it's negligible |
| 06:47:11 | Llorean | Negligible? |
| 06:47:14 | Llorean | These are not fast devices. |
| 06:47:21 | wpyh | and it will make the code easier to maintain by cleanly separating the interface from the core |
| 06:47:27 | Llorean | And every wasted cycle means lowered battery life. |
| 06:47:37 | Llorean | "Negligible" doesn't really apply on battery powered devices. |
| 06:47:46 | wpyh | Llorean: yeah, it will be negligible; it will mostly be an extra pointer |
| 06:48:13 | wpyh | Llorean: I'm not saying you see this as being practical ;) just that you're considering the practical considerations here :) |
| 06:48:31 | Llorean | The practical considerations are the ones that actually matter. |
| 06:48:41 | wpyh | yes, they are the ones that actually matter |
| 06:49:27 | Llorean | Having swappable UIs means that any time a new UI screen is added, it needs to be adapted to fit both (all) of them. |
| 06:49:42 | Llorean | Or any time a new port happens ,both UIs need to be ported, and made to deal with the new buttons. |
| 06:50:24 | wpyh | what are you referring to "it" when you say "it needs to be adapted..."? |
| 06:51:07 | iceowl | hmm.. I found a go app. hopefully it's not limited to playing with another person |
| 06:51:23 | Llorean | wpyh: any new UI screen |
| 06:51:43 | Llorean | iceowl: These players have slow processors. It's unlikely a decent Go AI can run on them at any reasonable speed |
| 06:51:52 | scorche | go AI is not terribly capable in the first place...only 6 or 7 kyu and those are the decent ones |
| 06:52:05 | iceowl | I know |
| 06:52:14 | wpyh | ah |
| 06:52:18 | iceowl | I just want to play Go on the bus to work :/ |
| 06:52:54 | scorche | iceowl: you could probably modify the plugin to set up a series of life-and-death problems |
| 06:53:11 | iceowl | probably. if I knew how to code at all. |
| 06:53:22 | wpyh | I'm thinking of a generic core-to-ui layer, so anytime a new UI screen is added, it only needs to be compatible with the current layer |
| 06:53:36 | wpyh | just like how a plugin accesses RB's api |
| 06:54:09 | wpyh | when a new port appears, both or one UI needs to be ported in the beginning |
| 06:54:34 | Llorean | wpyh: When a new feature needs a new screen, each UI will need a version of that screen though. |
| 06:54:42 | wpyh | and the idea of big icons actually comes to me a few days ago, when I saw the Onda VX747 port |
| 06:55:09 | wpyh | on such devices (with touchscreens), it is way easier to click on big icons |
| 06:55:21 | Llorean | You're basically adding a work-multiplier for those interested in developing new ports, for those providing support for ports, and for those who add new features. |
| 06:55:45 | wpyh | Llorean: hm... I'm not sure I fully understand what you mean by a new UI screen. any examples? |
| 06:55:50 | * | Llorean doesn't see how big icons will be any easier than simply having a large menu font. |
| 06:56:13 | wpyh | since basically all the UI screens are lists anyway |
| 06:56:36 | Llorean | wpyh: For example, the Bookmarks list is a unique sort of screen. If it were to be icon based, someone would have to convert that screen separately. If a new feature that used a customized list went in, for the UI to be consistent, a customized version would have to be done for each type of UI available |
| 06:56:51 | wpyh | Llorean: do both or all menu systems have to be supported in a port? |
| 06:57:03 | Llorean | Yes. |
| 06:57:20 | Llorean | Rockbox is one piece of software, we only leave out features if they're features the hardware is incapable of. |
| 06:57:32 | Llorean | Separate UIs for separate ports is contrary to what Rockbox is generally about |
| 06:58:04 | wpyh | hm... I wonder where the bookmarks screen is |
| 06:58:30 | Llorean | There's also Quickscreen, the color and equalizer settings, etc. |
| 06:58:49 | Llorean | While they could simply be used as they are, they wouldn't fit the "feel" of a big icons theme. |
| 06:59:01 | wpyh | Llorean: ok, then we have to work hard to port both menu systems then |
| 06:59:19 | wpyh | Llorean: that's what I was thinking... |
| 06:59:33 | wpyh | for example the WPS: it should be the same regardless of menu system |
| 06:59:51 | wpyh | the big-icon-system would only affect lists |
| 07:00 |
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| 07:00:13 | Llorean | wpyh: But that's just big-icon. |
| 07:00:17 | wpyh | instead of scroll up/down lists, now we have touchable or horizontal-scrollable lists |
| 07:00:21 | wpyh | yes, big-icon |
| 07:00:29 | Llorean | If it's going to be abstracted like that, there's no reason other ones won't be proposed. |
| 07:00:39 | Llorean | As well, you still have to reserve memory for the largest one. |
| 07:00:44 | wpyh | much like the iphone's ui (hope I'm not making LambdaCalculus37 mad) |
| 07:00:45 | Llorean | Which means the binsize issue is still a concern. |
| 07:01:07 | wpyh | hm |
| 07:01:19 | wpyh | can't the largest size be set as a property? |
| 07:01:27 | wpyh | so that the memory is allocated only at boot |
| 07:02:07 | Llorean | Possible, but I'm rather against a mere theme option requiring reboots or restarting playback. |
| 07:02:09 | wpyh | Llorean: yes, others will probably be proposed, which is good IMO |
| 07:02:38 | wpyh | as I said, reloading themes won't require a reboot |
| 07:02:46 | Llorean | Yes it will, if they require different UIs. |
| 07:02:46 | wpyh | uh, I mean changing themes |
| 07:02:58 | Llorean | Your big-list one is strictly compatible with normal lists. |
| 07:03:04 | Llorean | Which IMHO makes it more or less pointless anyway. |
| 07:04:15 | wpyh | what I mean is, when using one UI, loading a theme of a different UI will give an error message, something like "this one is for xxx UI only, please change to that ui and reboot first before loading this theme" |
| 07:04:17 | Llorean | But if every UI is just a different way of displaying the same old lists, then there's no functional benefit at all. |
| 07:04:29 | Llorean | wpyh: Then changing themes requires a reboot... |
| 07:04:34 | Llorean | It just doesn't automatically reboot. |
| 07:04:52 | wpyh | Llorean: you're thinking of someone who changes themes between UI's |
| 07:05:09 | wpyh | a theme can support multiple UIs, and a theme can support only one of those UIs |
| 07:05:42 | Llorean | You've never met our users. |
| 07:05:45 | wpyh | if for example,I'm in the small-icon UI, then changing from "cabbiev2" to "icatcher" works, but I'm still using the small-icon ui |
| 07:05:48 | Llorean | Some admit to changing themes hourly |
| 07:05:58 | Llorean | If changing themes may require a reboot, it's very not user-friendly |
| 07:06:24 | wpyh | if I want the big icons, then I must change a config option to "big icons" |
| 07:06:34 | Llorean | I didn't mean to say every theme will require a reboot, I mean to say I'm against any theme ever requiring a reboot. |
| 07:06:44 | wpyh | Llorean: if you don't want to expose the incompatible themes, we can hide them |
| 07:07:02 | Llorean | It's very simple: This idea doesn't add any functionality, is only subjectively aesthetically pleasing, and will complicate support and development. |
| 07:07:05 | wpyh | a theme will be much like a firefox plugin |
| 07:07:06 | Llorean | Besides "it looks good" what justifies it? |
| 07:07:11 | wpyh | ok |
| 07:07:15 | Llorean | Themes are .cfg files |
| 07:07:30 | Llorean | Are you suggesting scanning every .cfg in the themes folder to determine which ones require big or little icons? |
| 07:07:32 | wpyh | what I mean by a firefox plugin is its versioning |
| 07:07:43 | wpyh | yes, that's what I'm suggesting |
| 07:07:49 | wpyh | -OR- |
| 07:08:06 | Llorean | That means an entirely new directory browser feature just for themes. |
| 07:08:08 | | Quit massiveH (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 07:08:08 | wpyh | have a different theme folder for each UI, which you would probably reject anyway |
| 07:08:10 | Llorean | This gets less and less "low overhead" |
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| 07:08:28 | Llorean | wpyh: How would that work for multi-UI themes, then? |
| 07:08:40 | wpyh | Llorean: which one, the first one or the second one? |
| 07:09:08 | Llorean | The second one. The first one is kinda obvious that you could just list all compatible UIs. |
| 07:09:18 | scorche | is there any point in continuing this?...in the end, wpyh can code his ideas...and this in particular will almost assuredly be rejected...the end |
| 07:09:25 | Llorean | The second one, separate folders, would either require one folder for every permutation of UIs, or theme duplication. |
| 07:09:39 | wpyh | ah, the second one... the theme author must write multiple cfg files, which means it will most probably be rejected |
| 07:09:59 | wpyh | scorche: are you saying this will be a NoDo? |
| 07:10:17 | Llorean | I'm saying that unless this can overcome most of the objections I've raised, it's unlikely to be accepted. |
| 07:10:18 | wpyh | http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/NoDo |
| 07:10:35 | Llorean | Not a "NoDo" so much as a "Don't bother unless you can do it well enough that you can answer most objections" |
| 07:10:35 | scorche | no...i am saying it doesnt really serve much of a purpose and will likely be rejected unless you can solve the issues that have been brought up |
| 07:10:39 | * | wpyh thinks Llorean is reasonable in this case −− better than a NoDo |
| 07:10:49 | wpyh | hm... |
| 07:10:51 | scorche | that said, feel free to code it up and we can discuss this again then |
| 07:10:56 | wpyh | ok |
| 07:11:22 | wpyh | let me collect the objections here: |
| 07:11:27 | wpyh | 1. binsize |
| 07:11:28 | wpyh | 2. overhead |
| 07:11:34 | wpyh | 3. code complexity |
| 07:11:37 | scorche | dont make a list and spam the channel... |
| 07:11:42 | wpyh | uh.. |
| 07:11:55 | wpyh | ok, maybe I'll put it in my wikipage |
| 07:12:02 | scorche | you can fit plenty of numbers on one line |
| 07:12:24 | wpyh | ah, sorr |
| 07:12:25 | wpyh | y |
| 07:12:26 | wpyh | :) |
| 07:14:21 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 07:14:33 | wpyh | 1. binsize, 2. overhead, 3. code complexity, 4. needs to be blind friendly, 5. "what functional benefits?", 6. maintenance nightmare, 6. porting nightmare, 7. reboot after every theme change, 8. reboot after every UI change, 9. scan all themes or have multiple folders |
| 07:14:38 | wpyh | did I miss something? |
| 07:15:41 | scorche | even if you did, we can addres it after you solve all those ;) |
| 07:16:35 | wpyh | :O |
| 07:19:12 | wpyh | OK, you can see the summary here: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WilliamPoetra#Ideas |
| 07:27:21 | * | wpyh wonders why everyone is so quiet again |
| 07:27:35 | scorche | likely because no one has anything to say... |
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| 07:59:45 | MU{lappy} | if i want a plugin to possibly display an error and then exit when it's acknowledged, is there something in the plugin API already for that? the closest thing that i see is splash |
| 08:00 |
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| 08:03:14 | amiconn | That's what plugins normally use when displaying specific errors |
| 08:04:05 | amiconn | If you just need to error out, it's sufficient to return PLUGIN_ERROR instead of PLUGIN_OK. This makes the core show a generic splash ("plugin returned error") |
| 08:06:52 | midgey | regarding plugin languages, should plugin strings have their own id range or should they start at zero |
| 08:07:33 | midgey | for example, should the first plugin string be number 0x16000 or 0 |
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| 08:08:01 | Llorean | I think they should start at zero |
| 08:08:28 | amiconn | Right now the language ids are 16 bit, and the msb is already used to distinguish LAN_ from VOICE_ |
| 08:08:30 | Llorean | Otherwise plugins will be dependent on the ranges of other plugins (if you add strings to jewels, you might end up restricted by the reserved range because the next plugin in the list already starts at 0xSomething) |
| 08:08:35 | amiconn | *LANG_ |
| 08:08:54 | midgey | that's how they currently are implemented, but i'm not sure how to use those ids for voice ids |
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| 08:09:32 | | Join massiveH [0] (n=massiveH@ool-44c48a1e.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 08:10:30 | midgey | right now to access a core string (LANG_ or VOICE_) you can call talk_id via the plugin api |
| 08:10:32 | amiconn | Yes. For plugin localisation and voice, we need a way to segment .lng and .voice files, so that each part (core, plugin) can load the segment it needs |
| 08:11:02 | midgey | and to access plugin strings, you call plugin_talk_id via the plugin lib |
| 08:11:06 | amiconn | There needs to be some identifier in the source (the .lang file). Iirc this is already prepared |
| 08:13:11 | midgey | i've been experimenting with loading a string only if the user matches the caller |
| 08:14:05 | amiconn | Hmm. On flash targets this might work, but on HDD targets it would cause unacceptable delays |
| 08:15:22 | midgey | in lang_load, the entire lng is loaded into memory via one giant read |
| 08:15:35 | amiconn | I think that each lng/voice user should load its segment on startup. .lng can be permanent for the core, the plugins would load it into a local buffer |
| 08:15:53 | midgey | i experimented with byte-by-byte but not on target. it was probably slow |
| 08:16:21 | amiconn | Voice should have a method to share the core's voice buffer. Of course this means that the core needs to reload its voice segment on plugin exit |
| 08:17:08 | midgey | plugin_language_builtin is a giant array of all the english strings for plugins and is linking to the plugin_lib. i want to change this so only the need strings are linked to each plugin |
| 08:17:21 | | Join Rob2223 [0] (n=Miranda@p4FDCE3BA.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 08:18:40 | midgey | when you mention loading segments, are you thinking of sorting the lng by user (blackjack at the front, followed by chessbox, followed by chopper, etc) and then storing the id offset, file offset and size? |
| 08:21:03 | amiconn | I was thinking more like "use the existing .lng file format for each user, but instead of having separate files, concatenate them all, and put an offset table inb front of it" |
| 08:22:21 | midgey | would there only be one english.lang file or english-blackjack.lang english-chopper.lang |
| 08:22:33 | amiconn | Only one .lng per language |
| 08:22:34 | | Quit massiveH ("Leaving") |
| 08:23:03 | amiconn | Otherwise the number of files would explode, which means wasting space on FAT (each file would occupy one cluster) |
| 08:23:24 | midgey | i meant the text file before running through genlang. genlang would still output one lng file |
| 08:24:44 | amiconn | That should probably also be just one file. Imagine 25 languges * (say) 20 localised plugins. That's 500 files with one file per user ... |
| 08:25:31 | amiconn | If you're going for one source file per user, they could be put in subfolders though |
| 08:26:01 | | Quit BHSPitLappy (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 08:26:24 | * | amiconn just had an idea |
| 08:27:48 | amiconn | I'm not sure whether it's good or bad: What about putting all translations into one source file, i.e. no more <language>.lang |
| 08:28:27 | amiconn | Hmm, that would probably cause problems with detecting which strings need attention for a certain language... |
| 08:29:47 | midgey | it might be possible, i'm going to look into the concatenation method tomorrow and get working on it |
| 08:29:59 | midgey | but right now, i'm heading to bed |
| 08:31:00 | amiconn | nighty |
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| 09:30:51 | fml | I wonder why the WPS code hasn't caused rather bad crashes. Many tags (e.g. %mm) access the int at the address 0. Is it ok? I partly fixed this in FS #8965. But how didn't it strike before? |
| 09:32:15 | amiconn | Reading from address 0 doesn't cause a crash by itself. On SH1 and coldfire you can enable a debugging aid that will fire an exception when this happens though |
| 09:32:32 | amiconn | It's nevertheless bad behaviour, and needs to be fixed |
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| 10:43:27 | * | bertrik got 14:41 runtime on his c200 :) |
| 10:44:51 | pixelma | wow, hadn't measured recently. I just remember getting about 8 hours in a runtime test somewhen before Buschel's power saving works |
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| 11:07:20 | bertrik | pixelma, I'm now testing a patch that completely disables the display controller if the screen is off |
| 11:08:02 | bertrik | no sorry, actually it turns off the display and puts the controller in standby mode |
| 11:09:25 | pixelma | wonder how much difference that'll make. It's already become quite ok recently (just my impression though) |
| 11:11:08 | bertrik | I don't expect it to be a lot of difference, but every little bit helps |
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| 11:57:08 | * | amiconn wonders whether we should add large file support to rockbox |
| 11:57:32 | amiconn | It would mean going 64 bit for the file api... is it worth it? |
| 11:58:27 | amiconn | 64 bit for ssize_t, that is |
| 11:58:35 | linuxstb | I can't recall many complaints about the fact that we don't... |
| 11:58:41 | amiconn | (and friends) |
| 11:59:08 | Llorean | What happens if you see a >2GB-1 file in the browser and/or select properties or something on it? |
| 11:59:38 | amiconn | Umm, actually I don't know |
| 11:59:50 | amiconn | Either it will show a negative value, or throw an error |
| 12:00 |
| 12:00:03 | Llorean | I can't imagine people wanting to open giant files on any of our devices, and recording split cap uses a safe upper limit anyway I think, but I'm sure there are people who might user their DAPs to store a few large files sometimes |
| 12:00:23 | Llorean | I don't see that we need to "support" them as long as there's no "bad" behaviour resulting from having 'em around |
| 12:00:41 | amiconn | Recording cares about this, yes. But someone could put really large files on it, be it music or video |
| 12:00:57 | domonoky | isnt it difficult to get > 2gig files on a fat32 partition ? |
| 12:01:16 | amiconn | Windows should have no problem putting such files on it |
| 12:02:34 | Llorean | I think a lack of large file support is more likely to cause some strange behaviour in the future when nobody's thinking about it (or when nobody around knows about it) |
| 12:03:59 | amiconn | For .wav, it needs 3 hours 39 to exceed the 2GB limit (standard CD quality) |
| 12:04:31 | bertrik | I think we should at least make sure we fail gracefully if we don't support it (i.e. refuse to work with large files instead of crashing) |
| 12:10:10 | linuxstb | shotofadds: (for the logs) I've just tried the NAND driver on the DAX, and it fails to mount the partition, but I'm not sure what I should do to help debug... |
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| 12:56:15 | TaffinFoxcroft | anyone know how to get a creative zen v plus working with the MTP plugin? |
| 12:57:03 | TaffinFoxcroft | oops wrong channel |
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| 14:30:14 | amiconn | Llorean: I have created a ~2.4GB WAV file and put it on my H340 |
| 14:30:40 | amiconn | 'properties' shows a very large negative size (in bytes) |
| 14:31:37 | amiconn | Playing it doesn't work - it's skipped immediately |
| 14:31:56 | amiconn | That's probably because negative return values from open() mean error |
| 14:32:55 | amiconn | test_codec splashes "Cannot read metadata", probably due to the same reason |
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| 14:33:43 | * | linuxstb senses amiconn is tempted to implement large file support... |
| 14:34:02 | amiconn | The question is whether it'd make sense |
| 14:34:19 | amiconn | At least rockbox doesn't do something nasty when encountering such files |
| 14:35:10 | linuxstb | It would be nice to fully support the capabilities of FAT, but I don't know if it's worth introducing lots of 64-bit ints to do it... |
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| 14:36:13 | amiconn | The question is how many places would need to use 64 bit |
| 14:36:45 | * | petur remembers getting called back when he added support to properties for large files |
| 14:36:50 | linuxstb | Codecs would need them - it could be significant for codecs that buffer the seektable. |
| 14:37:03 | amiconn | All plain filesize values can still be stored as 32 bit (unsigned) |
| 14:37:20 | linuxstb | Hmm, that's true, we're still limiting to 4GB... |
| 14:37:32 | amiconn | Just the special cases where negative values mean 'error' need to be 64 bit |
| 14:37:32 | linuxstb | So no problem for seektables |
| 14:37:51 | amiconn | And that's mainly the file system api |
| 14:38:00 | amiconn | (because it's posix) |
| 14:38:26 | * | petur likes having funtion results returned separate from retuned data |
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| 14:43:05 | bertrik | which functions of the file system api are we talking about really? |
| 14:43:26 | linuxstb | open, lseek, read, write... |
| 14:43:54 | linuxstb | But maybe we don't need to be able to read/write more than 2GB... |
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| 14:45:51 | * | amiconn thinks it's strange that read() and write() expect the count as size_t, but return ssize_t |
| 14:46:13 | amiconn | In the special (v)fat32 case, only ssize_t would need to be 64 bit |
| 14:46:24 | amiconn | (and off_t) |
| 14:46:59 | petur | dirent specifies size as long, that could change to unsigned long |
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| 14:49:02 | amiconn | Hmm, open() itself doesn't have problems with >=2GB, because it only returns the file descriptor |
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| 14:51:05 | amiconn | Looks like functions in file.c needing attention are read(), write(), lseek(), filesize(), ftruncate() (and related static functions) |
| 14:51:34 | amiconn | fat.c may also need attention, as well as dircache |
| 14:54:01 | bertrik | so the options are 1) do nothing 2) extend max filesize to 4 GB by using unsigneds 3) go full blown 64-bit for size_t, ssize_t and off_t |
| 14:54:47 | amiconn | The H300 OF does handle my 2.4GB WAV file... |
| 14:55:05 | bertrik | I prefer option 2 if possible |
| 14:55:21 | amiconn | (2) also requires a few places being converted to 64 bit |
| 14:56:19 | amiconn | .. ssize_t and off_t. size_t could stay 32 bit, but somehow that sounds dirty... |
| 14:57:17 | amiconn | Ouch, OF seeking is sloo-oooww |
| 14:57:40 | amiconn | It basically just does 3 second steps, which is a bit fine-grained for a 4-hour file |
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| 15:00:40 | bertrik | amiconn, you mean that using 32-bit unsigneds will be a bit of a hack, so it's basically all-or-nothing w.r.t. 64-bit file file lengths and offsets? |
| 15:01:10 | amiconn | It is a hack. Not sure whether it's good or bad. |
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| 15:06:14 | bertrik | indeed, off_t has to be a signed, to make it possible to seek x bytes back from the end for example |
| 15:06:28 | amiconn | yeps |
| 15:10:59 | amiconn | There is another detail which needs attention. If the api goes 64 bit, the fat driver needs to ensure the max. file size |
| 15:11:26 | petur | yup |
| 15:13:59 | * | linuxstb wonders what twiki name to use for a page trying to document the PP502x |
| 15:14:23 | bertrik | otoh, things may just magically work themselves out because of how overflows work |
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| 15:15:12 | amiconn | Don't rely on that here. |
| 15:15:44 | rasher | linuxstb: PortalPlayer502x? |
| 15:15:47 | amiconn | The cluster chain can easily grow beyond 4GB, but the size field in the dir entry is only 32 bit |
| 15:16:06 | linuxstb | rasher: Just what I had in mind... |
| 15:16:32 | amiconn | So if you write a >= 4G file, the dir entry will be modulo 4GB, but the diskspace will be taken for the whole amount |
| 15:17:01 | amiconn | I'm not even sure whether chkdsk would detect such a situation |
| 15:18:23 | bertrik | so don't write files larger than 4 GB? |
| 15:21:34 | bertrik | if the dir entry supports only 32-bit, that's a limit of the file system anyway |
| 15:22:02 | amiconn | Yes, the 4GB limit |
| 15:22:13 | amiconn | And the fat driver has to make sure it isn't exceeded |
| 15:22:40 | PaulJam | <amiconn> Ouch, OF seeking is sloo-oooww <= you should have used the Study Mode :) |
| 15:24:01 | bertrik | amiconn, ok, I misunderstood what you were talking about |
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| 15:30:42 | * | linuxstb creates PortalPlayer502x and invites anyone that knows anything to edit it... |
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| 15:54:06 | HTMLCODER | Hello, may I ask if Rockbox does support .png images? |
| 15:54:38 | Nico_P | it doesn't |
| 15:54:51 | HTMLCODER | Thnaks |
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| 18:05:28 | noapic | hello ... I am interested in porting libwma to Sony PSP. |
| 18:05:37 | noapic | any ideas on where to begin :D ? |
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| 18:18:31 | linuxstb | noapic: That would seem to be a question for a Sony PSP channel - libwma is simply C code... |
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| 19:04:14 | | Quit MethoS (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 19:12:30 | * | amiconn wonders why linuxstb kept known outdated information when adding the ipl PP502x stuff |
| 19:14:34 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 19:18:26 | Nico_P | because he didn't know it was outdated? |
| 19:32:12 | soap | Is the plan to use the PP USB stack for iPods even if not Sansas for 3.0? |
| 19:32:48 | amiconn | It's still not working properly in some environments |
| 19:33:19 | amiconn | (front ports with the obviously common signal quality problems, hubs) |
| 19:33:56 | amiconn | I wouldn't enable it for the release unless this problem is solved by then |
| 19:34:00 | soap | Is there any need/desire to encourage more widespread testing, or is developer time and or technical analysis needed more than user case-studies? |
| 19:34:17 | amiconn | The latter |
| 19:34:29 | amiconn | There must be some setup detail we're missing |
| 19:34:56 | * | amiconn does have the usb stack enabled on all his PP502x targets, but tends to not use it |
| 19:35:04 | soap | is bench testing (scope) needed more or simply knowledgeable eyeballs? |
| 19:35:25 | amiconn | Even when connected to a root port there are occasional resets, stalling the transfer for a while |
| 19:37:19 | | Join merbanan [0] (n=banan@83.233.242.107) |
| 19:37:47 | linuxstb | amiconn: I simply wanted to make a verbatim copy as the first "commit" |
| 19:37:59 | amiconn | ah |
| 19:39:13 | amiconn | Do you want to copy the PP5002 page as well? |
| 19:39:41 | linuxstb | I will do, but I'm about to walk out of the door to go out for the night. I can do it tomorrow if no-one else has done it. |
| 19:40:13 | * | amiconn should probably add his knowledge regarding clock setup |
| 19:40:30 | amiconn | (both PP5002 and PP502x) |
| 19:40:34 | * | linuxstb walks out of the door |
| 19:51:53 | | Join bugjuice [0] (n=jello@adsl-99-139-200-9.dsl.applwi.sbcglobal.net) |
| 19:52:42 | bugjuice | could someone offer some help with a small problem I have? |
| 19:54:32 | | Join bluebrother [0] (n=Dom@rockbox/staff/bluebrother) |
| 19:56:07 | bugjuice | upon fresh install of rockbox, my wps graphics won't load |
| 19:58:29 | PaulJam | the theme is probably broken due to recent syntax changes. see if you find an updated version in the WpsGallery in the wiki or fix the theme. details here: http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=17507.0 |
| 19:59:58 | bugjuice | thx. I'll investigate. |
| 20:00 |
| 20:00:54 | bugjuice | so if i go back to an earlier build, it should fix? |
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| 20:04:16 | bertrik | No, I think it's better to just fix the wps. Going back to an earlier version is a dead end. |
| 20:04:23 | | Quit BigBambi (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) |
| 20:05:58 | bugjuice | by "dead end" you mean, counterproductive |
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| 20:17:27 | saratoga | if that noapic guy comes back tell him to contact me about the wma codec |
| 20:17:59 | bugjuice | thx for the help and well done to all developers who helped with the latest build. rockbox continues to improve! |
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| 20:34:41 | | Join Strife89 [0] (n=michael@204.116.245.152) |
| 20:35:30 | Strife89 | Is there, by chance, any way to make Rockbox show a theme even if it runs off the screen? |
| 20:37:23 | Strife89 | I'm attempting to port a theme to the c200; that's why I'm wondering. |
| 20:38:14 | PaulJam | i don't think that is possible |
| 20:38:42 | Strife89 | Hmmm, darn. |
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| 20:41:25 | PaulJam | what you could try is using an uisimulator for a device with a larger screen and modify tha WPS until it fits in an area in tha upper left corner of the size of the target screen. but i'm not sure if this will make it easier. |
| 20:42:09 | Strife89 | I did (iPod Video) and the WPS refused to display. |
| 20:42:26 | bluebrother | sounds like the wps itself is broken. |
| 20:42:36 | Strife89 | More like I broke it. :( |
| 20:42:45 | PaulJam | the console output should give you a hint where it fails |
| 20:42:48 | bluebrother | that's an option too ;-) |
| 20:42:56 | bluebrother | you could also try to use checkwps. |
| 20:43:09 | Strife89 | How do I bring up the console output (Linux binary) |
| 20:43:10 | bluebrother | but running the sim (using −−debugwps) gives a similar output |
| 20:43:23 | bluebrother | run it from a console ;-) |
| 20:43:28 | bertrik | does anyone have PCB photo or scans of a c200 that are more detailed than the ones at anythingbutipod? |
| 20:43:58 | Strife89 | I could photograph mine..... |
| 20:44:49 | Strife89 | Anyway, thanks Paul and blue, I'll try those. |
| 20:44:53 | | Part Strife89 |
| 20:45:24 | bertrik | I have one too that I can open and photograph, but if there's already a collection of high-res photos available, I'd rather use those |
| 20:45:30 | soap | saratoga, congrats (again?) on the WMA improvements. |
| 20:46:34 | saratoga | soap: thanks |
| 20:47:16 | saratoga | regarding wma, i don't mind talking about porting it to other projects so if anyone else comes in asking about it i can talk to them |
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| 20:51:07 | merbanan | saratoga: do you know what kind of fft the tremor transform uses ? |
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| 21:14:36 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 21:16:11 | saratoga | merbanan: you mean like radix-2 or whatever? |
| 21:16:18 | saratoga | i'm not sure what the specific transform used is called |
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| 22:27:10 | saratoga | how do I make the flac test program? |
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| 22:28:17 | saratoga | never mind i can't read |
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| 22:43:29 | midgey | domonoky: did you see what i wrote yesterday about you changes in r18002? |
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| 23:02:05 | domonoky | nope, will check the logs :-) |
| 23:05:03 | domonoky | ah, i see the problem... |
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| 23:09:22 | bluebrother | domonoky: why not build the objects for ppc and i386? Then you can build the universal lib in one go |
| 23:09:32 | bluebrother | *into subfolders |
| 23:09:45 | bluebrother | (insert at correct position ;-) |
| 23:11:59 | domonoky | bluebrother: feel free to improve, i just needed to work around the problem, that ar doesnt handle universal binarys.. |
| 23:12:09 | saratoga | how do I tell a makefile to make a file one level up in the tree? |
| 23:12:23 | saratoga | trying to do file.o: ..file.c doesn't seem to work |
| 23:12:37 | saratoga | file.o: ../file.c |
| 23:14:02 | domonoky | midgey: i commted a fix, i hope it works (it wont be universal) |
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| 23:19:55 | bluebrother | saratoga: make a file one level up? What do you want to do? |
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| 23:26:13 | bluebrother | domonoky: do we want to build the universal binary in all cases on mac? I guess not. |
| 23:28:18 | domonoky | hm, it wouldnt hurt to build it always universally, if it wasnt so complicated to build, damn ar .. |
| 23:30:53 | saratoga | bluebrother: I want to make a standalone codec like flac does, but to do that I need to have the makefile reach down one level from the codec's folder to the codec's parser |
| 23:30:54 | bluebrother | does osx allow building as universal in all cases? Or do you need to install something special for that to work? |
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| 23:31:41 | bluebrother | saratoga: wouldn't it be better to have a makefile a level up and let that do the work? |
| 23:32:30 | saratoga | bluebrother: it would get reverted pretty quickly if I put a makefile in apps/codecs |
| 23:32:52 | bluebrother | hmm, right. But doesn't using relative paths not work? |
| 23:32:57 | domonoky | i think you dont need anything special to build universal binarys, you just pass two "-arch" commands to gcc, but then ar cant handle the .o files correctly :-) (and also some minor makefile tweaks are needed) .. |
| 23:33:55 | saratoga | so I just need to put an absolute path? |
| 23:34:47 | bluebrother | saratoga: no. For example, the librbspeex Makefile simply has "../rbspeexenc". |
| 23:35:07 | bluebrother | Should work similarly for you (or I haven't got your problem correctly ;-) |
| 23:36:33 | saratoga | bluebrother: where is that makefile? |
| 23:37:02 | bluebrother | tools/rbspeex |
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| 23:38:44 | midgey | domonoky: seems to work great, thanks |
| 23:39:20 | saratoga | bluebrother: http://pastebin.com/m6b411f21 |
| 23:39:54 | saratoga | gives "make: *** No rule to make target `wma.o', needed by `test'. Stop. " |
| 23:40:20 | bluebrother | saratoga: you don't provide rules for the other source files as well. |
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| 23:40:44 | saratoga | bluebrother: needed to change "wma.o" to "../wma.o" |
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| 23:42:31 | bluebrother | how did you produce wma.o? using an implicit rule? |
| 23:43:28 | saratoga | bluebrother: I'm not sure what you mean |
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| 23:45:16 | bluebrother | well, you need a rule to compile wma.o from wma.c. The makefile you posted only lists wma.c as prerequisite for wma.o, but doesn't contain a rule |
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| 23:46:43 | saratoga | i don't know enough about makefiles to say |
| 23:46:48 | saratoga | i've always just done it this way |
| 23:48:05 | bluebrother | try something like this: http://pastebin.com/m5be354de |
| 23:48:12 | bluebrother | couldn't test it though. |
| 23:48:49 | bluebrother | oh, and you might want to add $(CFLAGS) to the gcc call. |
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| 23:51:02 | bertrik | bluebrother, there are implicit rules to go from .c to .o, but that is still a bit of black magic to me too |
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| 23:51:55 | bluebrother | bertrik: true, but do those implicit rules still get applied if you provide a new rule just adding prerequisites? |
| 23:52:54 | bluebrother | but it looks so ... |
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| 23:58:25 | * | bluebrother wonders if saratoga had success |
icon identifies that the person is a core developer (has commit access).