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00:02:34 | solexx_ | I still think the whole point of the procedure is to have two versions of Rockbox available, one in ROM and one in RAM. Since the patch isn't needed anymore, you don't need to have two versions around and just unziping a current rockbox.zip to the CF should work, as long as you have a current bootloader installed. |
00:04:52 | solexx_ | I just don't understand the point where the wiki says to flash "rockbox.iriver (RAM image) to ROM". Opening the file with the flash plugin doesn't offer a choice where the flash it, I guess rockbox.iriver always ends up in RAM. |
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00:06:23 | solexx_ | What's also strange is that when I choose "boot from disk" on the bootloader menu, I don't get "ata -80" but "no partitions found" instead. |
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00:06:40 | solexx_ | But there is exactly one partition on the CF card. |
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00:16:12 | BigBambi | rockbox.iriver always ends up in ram |
00:16:22 | BigBambi | or rather, as the ram image |
00:16:35 | BigBambi | the one called rombox is the one that is run direct from rom |
00:17:11 | BigBambi | I can't remember the exact name, but it is something like rombox.iriver |
00:18:52 | solexx_ | BigBambi: yes, it is. |
00:19:24 | BigBambi | The thing is, both are stored in ROM |
00:19:48 | BigBambi | The difference is that rockbox.iriver is copied to RAM to be run, rombox.iriver is run direct from ROM |
00:20:24 | BigBambi | So when the wiki says to flash rockbox.iriver (RAM image) to ROM it is correct, if not too clear |
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00:22:21 | solexx_ | BigBambi: ah, so both are *stored* in ROM, but while rombox.iriver is directly run from ROM, rockbox.iriver is loaded into RAM before it is run? |
00:22:27 | BigBambi | yes |
00:23:39 | solexx_ | ah, thanks |
00:27:39 | solexx_ | Anybody with experience running Rockbox from CF on Iriver H120 in here? |
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00:29:22 | Soap | http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/rdiff/Main/WpsIpod5g?type=history causes an error 500. |
00:29:46 | Soap | I know it is a large page with lots of revisions, but being unable to view history kinda sucks. |
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01:10:20 | nevyn | Can I be reasonably confident that the following item is an ipod that is supported in rockbox? http://www.dealsdirect.com.au/p/60gb-apple-ipod-classic-black-reconfigured/ |
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01:12:45 | domonoky | nevyn: ipod classic does not work with rockbox.. |
01:12:59 | nevyn | right. |
01:13:07 | nevyn | but aiui it's not actually an ipod classic |
01:13:23 | kugel | Yea, that doesn't look like a classig |
01:13:34 | nevyn | this is part of why I'm asking |
01:13:49 | nevyn | aiui the classic is only the 80/160GB models |
01:14:16 | kugel | nevyn: That sounds like refurbished ipod to me, where "reconfigured" means that the front and backplate have been replaced with original parts if they've taken damage |
01:14:31 | nevyn | kugel: that's what I think |
01:14:34 | BigBambi | nevyn: That is true, but it might have had an odd hard drive stuck in |
01:14:44 | nevyn | in which case it's a g5.5 |
01:14:45 | BigBambi | However, I think it isn't a classic and will be OK |
01:15:02 | BigBambi | nevyn: For reference, http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1353 |
01:15:35 | lordpil | they list the model, http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=MA147LL |
01:16:43 | BigBambi | Yes, googling for the model number brings up an ipod video |
01:17:11 | nevyn | neato |
01:17:14 | BigBambi | So it should be fine, it isn't actually a classic |
01:17:24 | nevyn | BigBambi: that's what I figgured. |
01:17:28 | BigBambi | No guarantees though :) |
01:17:35 | nevyn | of course. |
01:17:53 | nevyn | problem is. |
01:18:04 | nevyn | to the vast majority an ipod is an ipod is an ipod |
01:18:12 | BigBambi | er, what? |
01:18:23 | BigBambi | Not in hardware terms between generations |
01:18:27 | nevyn | sure. |
01:18:39 | BigBambi | Sorry, I misread |
01:18:40 | nevyn | I know that. |
01:19:07 | BigBambi | I missed the to at the start and inserted an of between majority and an |
01:19:11 | nevyn | but the labeling and so on don't make it clear which generation ipod things are. |
01:19:53 | BigBambi | the vast majority of an ipod is an ipod is an ipod reads very differently :) |
01:20:01 | nevyn | heh |
01:20:08 | kugel | nevyn: True, my friends even freak out if they see a ipod shuffle |
01:20:09 | nevyn | no to the vast majority of peopl |
01:20:29 | kugel | I tell'em "but it has no display, that sucks", and they just answer: "but it's an ipod" |
01:20:58 | nevyn | and classic has become a way to specify the "standard" ipod as opposed to a touch or nano or shuffle |
01:21:50 | nevyn | thanks |
01:22:38 | kugel | nevyn: But, the ipod video is actually the target on which rockbox performs worst |
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01:27:37 | nevyn | kugel: bother. |
01:27:45 | BigBambi | Big screen, slow processor |
01:27:53 | nevyn | what should I be looking for in this size storage range? |
01:28:06 | BigBambi | www.rockbox.org/wiki/BuyersGuide |
01:30:18 | nevyn | ok so that doesn't mention that the ipod video sucks for rockbox. and it doesn't give a guide as to what works well/best |
01:31:08 | BigBambi | portalplayer have fairly slow processors (ipod, h10, sansa), or the bigger the screen within those the worse |
01:32:02 | BigBambi | It depends what you want to do - the ipod video will be likely fine unless you want to have every bit of dsp turned on (equalizer etc) or watch video |
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01:32:52 | BigBambi | On the ipod video if you want to watch video you are better of using the apple firmware, as it can use an additional chip for video playback that we don't know how to use |
01:33:57 | BigBambi | And I don't mean just equaliser, I mean all the other DSP options too (disclaimer, I've not actually used one, I'm just going on other people's experiences) |
01:34:10 | BigBambi | The gigabeat F is very good though |
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01:39:53 | lordpil | has anyone actually connected a jtag debugger to the e200 successfully? |
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02:52:27 | Colby_ | Question: I have an iriver H10 20gb. Ages ago it got wet or something, and the scroll/track bar on it now doesn't scroll at all with iRiver firmware, and with Rockbox firmware it scrolls straight down no matter what (though it will scroll up, but then promptly back down). Also, whenever I try to use -any- buttons on my player with Rockbox (power, skip buttons, select, back) they don't work... |
02:52:29 | Colby_ | ...at all - to the point where I have to manually reset my player to get it to even turn off. Any ideas? Is this a software or hardware issue? |
02:54:23 | scorche | if they dont work properly in either firmware, it is hardware... |
02:55:39 | Colby_ | I don't understand why I can't even browse the folder trees in Rockbox though - that at least works in the iRiver firmware. |
02:56:06 | Colby_ | For me, the Rockbox menu won't even do anything except let me scroll between Files - System. I can't open any of those options. |
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03:05:28 | Soap | IIRC Rockbox's scroll pad "interpreter" is significantly different than iRiver's, still it is clearly a hardware issue. |
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03:17:35 | num1 | someone mentioned that you can dynamically allocate memory on rockbox without using malloc |
03:18:04 | num1 | How do I do this? (sorry for using multiple lines, my finger slipped) |
03:19:49 | JdGordon | depends how much you want, and how dynamic, and how you want to use it |
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03:26:49 | num1 | I want enough to hold an image the size of the screen, at the screens bitdepth. I basically want to make an array with a size determined at runtime. preferably read and write, unless you have a different meaning for "how you want to use it" |
03:28:48 | num1 | on a stylistic note, in apps/lang there's a mix of naming a language file based on the word for the language, and the languages word for the language. If I make a patch that changes all the names to english what are the chances of it being accepted? |
03:29:12 | JdGordon | any reason to not just make it statically sized at compile time? |
03:29:32 | JdGordon | and there has been a bit of discussoin about that and we dont really knwow hat we want |
03:30:50 | kugel | JdGordon: Morning :) |
03:31:14 | JdGordon | hi |
03:31:40 | JdGordon | I've looked... depending on my day ill concider commiting :p |
03:31:49 | num1 | I would prefer to save space, but that's not really a strong argument at this scale. What I would really like is to make a buffer the exact size of the image, that I can blit to the screen, instead of having to perform translations on every pixel as I'm adding then to the image to account for its position on the screen. I should've said I want to hold an image the size of the screen or smaller |
03:32:17 | kugel | JdGordon: :P |
03:32:54 | kugel | JdGordon: No need to rush, the statusbar still flickers (in case you were talking about the pitchscreen_vp patch) |
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03:34:12 | JdGordon | num1: something like extern fb_data lcd_framebuffer[LCD_FBHEIGHT][LCD_FBWIDTH]; |
03:34:38 | JdGordon | num1: depends on the feauter it may be better to allocate the buffer from the audiobuffer at boot time |
03:34:50 | JdGordon | audiobuf_alloc() (or somethying like that) |
03:35:07 | JdGordon | not the same ass buffer_alloc() |
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03:35:37 | num1 | JdGordon: buffer_alloc() allocates data in the plugin buffer? |
03:35:37 | JdGordon | sorry, got them backwards... use buffer_alloc() |
03:36:27 | JdGordon | buffer_alloc() steals some of the audio buffer |
03:37:01 | num1 | JdGordon: alright, thanks. I was hoping there was a way to dynamically allocate memory without stopping playback |
03:38:22 | JdGordon | there is |
03:38:34 | JdGordon | give me a min... im putting up a wiki page with the options |
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03:39:16 | JdGordon | if you want to keep the buffer for the whole rockbox "session" then you should either statially allocate it, or use buffer_alloc |
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04:07:25 | JdGordon | arg, the wiki has slowed to a crawl :( |
04:07:49 | num1 | JdGordon: can you post a link to the page when you're done? |
04:09:37 | JdGordon | num1: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/AllocatingRAM |
04:09:57 | num1 | JdGordon: thank you kindly |
04:19:56 | num1 | I'm having trouble attaching a files to flyspray reports and comments. And ideas? |
04:21:00 | num1 | nevermind I found out why. How do I add a patch that's bigger than 2MB? |
04:21:11 | num1 | s/add/submit |
04:21:28 | JdGordon | zip it? |
04:21:33 | JdGordon | what file is it? |
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04:22:46 | num1 | #9235 |
04:23:36 | num1 | can someone look at FS #9234 please? |
04:24:40 | JdGordon | yeah, i saw it... its a pretty low priority fix... |
04:25:05 | num1 | JdGordon: well yes... but it's also a very easy one-line fix |
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04:39:22 | num1 | JdGordon: I'm assuming that if you're a plugin you can't allocate memory from your plugin buffer at runtime since you didn't add it to the list? |
04:41:20 | JdGordon | if your a plugin just use the static buffer... its easiest |
04:41:25 | JdGordon | unless its larger than 512K |
04:42:05 | num1 | what's the static buffer? |
04:42:46 | JdGordon | just add a global variable to the plugin |
04:42:55 | JdGordon | char mybuffer[BUF_ZISE]; |
04:44:05 | num1 | JdGordon: alright, thanks |
04:45:12 | saratoga | is vfat.h a standard unix library? |
04:45:32 | JdGordon | dunno |
04:46:05 | JdGordon | im guessing no though |
04:46:52 | saratoga | sorry vfs |
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05:14:31 | saratoga | JdGordon: are include files specific to a particular gcc build, or do all the gcc versions (arm, coldfire, etc) use the same include files? |
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05:15:30 | JdGordon | saratoga: umm.. i assume they all use the same ones, except where they have arch specific stuff.. but then they would still have the same names, or #included in a common .h? |
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05:17:15 | saratoga | JdGordon: so all gcc crosscompilers are still looking at /usr/include? |
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05:32:16 | saratoga | i've just found the strangest gcc issue |
05:32:49 | saratoga | removing #ifndef_ANSIDECL_H_ from _ansi.h fixes a compilation problem, even though putting a #warning in the file shows that it was not defined |
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05:33:50 | HETROSEXO | WASSUPP |
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06:05:01 | maha | whats 'caption backlight' ? |
06:05:17 | JdGordon | the backlight turns on for a few seconds at the track change |
06:05:37 | maha | so whats 'party mode' |
06:06:01 | maha | its not very intuitive |
06:06:07 | JdGordon | http://www.rockbox.org/manual.shtml |
06:08:23 | maha | i hasve always been havin this battery drain issue |
06:08:40 | maha | it can do perhaps 10 h |
06:08:43 | maha | e200 sansa |
06:08:48 | maha | is this normal ? |
06:12:19 | advcomp2019 | i get around 15 to 17 on my sansa.. how old is your sansa |
06:13:40 | num1 | my e280 gets about 19 depending on how use it |
06:13:54 | num1 | on how *I* use it |
06:16:08 | maha | that sucks |
06:16:16 | maha | its like 6 months |
06:16:22 | maha | rarely use it actually |
06:16:38 | saratoga | did you batterybench it ? |
06:20:27 | maha | i think i did at some point |
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07:04:34 | vitja | linuxstb, I did it |
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07:35:38 | num1 | for 16bit color lcd targets, how do I figure out what the format is? Like how are red green and blue packed into those 6 bits? |
07:35:46 | num1 | s/6/16 |
07:37:46 | num1 | RGBPACK_LCD seems like the answer but it confuses me because it doesn't seem to care what the LCD_DEPTH is |
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07:44:15 | num1 | nevermind, I found it. |
07:44:26 | * | num1 tells himself to RTFM before asking questions |
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08:55:31 | linuxstb | vitja: What did you do? |
08:56:02 | vitja | linuxstb, I've written button and simple lcd driver |
08:56:15 | vitja | and rockbox bootloader booted |
08:56:50 | vitja | now I'm going to play with usb 2.0 host |
08:56:59 | vitja | s/host/device/ |
08:57:08 | vitja | never did it before, only host |
08:57:36 | linuxstb | Have you tested the NAND driver? |
08:58:46 | vitja | when I call ata_init() bootloader panics with nand cache error |
08:59:35 | vitja | does it work ok on other tcc77x ports? |
09:00 |
09:00:11 | linuxstb | It apparently works a little... At least, I haven't heard of that error before. |
09:01:41 | vitja | ok so.. if run ata_init() in bootloader instead of show_debug_screen() that should work? |
09:02:47 | linuxstb | Yes. Are you also calling the other _init() functions? |
09:03:30 | vitja | here are I use default loader that could be found in bootloader/telechips.c |
09:03:54 | vitja | I see cowond2 also calls kernel_init() and enable_irq() |
09:04:00 | vitja | does that makes sens? |
09:05:20 | linuxstb | No, the D2 doesn't call those two functions. |
09:05:40 | vitja | yeah |
09:05:46 | vitja | I was wrong here |
09:06:51 | vitja | so I simply enable D2 nand initialization code, and that sais Max NAND write cac has reached |
09:08:38 | vitja | Is that write? |
09:08:46 | vitja | I mean right |
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09:11:03 | linuxstb | Well, something is obviously wrong. shotofadds is the person to talk to about the NAND driver, but I think he may be on vacation for the next couple of weeks... |
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09:19:57 | vitja | my player is 8Gb, if that matter |
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09:22:45 | linuxstb | Have you tried increasing the number of write caches (MAX_WRITE_CACHES in ata-nand-telechips.c) ? |
09:23:04 | linuxstb | I've no idea if that's the right thing to do, or if that error is because there is another issue... |
09:24:46 | vitja | no |
09:25:01 | vitja | but it seems driver detects my flash correctly |
09:26:44 | vitja | linuxstb: I set it to 64, and ata_init and mount finish successfully) |
09:27:34 | linuxstb | I think that's good... You don't want to set it higher than needed though. |
09:27:57 | vitja | that was just for try |
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09:28:50 | vitja | min value it works is 32 |
09:29:15 | vitja | I did't tried non pow of 2 values |
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09:31:21 | JdGordon | hmm... has anyone tried running in the sim in osx? |
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09:31:50 | linuxstb | JdGordon: I have in the past, but not recently... |
09:32:30 | JdGordon | it doesnt work anymore.... it loads but becomes unreposive... I have to force quit it |
09:32:52 | linuxstb | Has it worked for you previously? |
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09:33:21 | JdGordon | this is the first time I'm trying in at least 6 months... checking an old bug report |
09:33:47 | JdGordon | terminal says we are using an old api and should use Quartz instead of QuickDRaw |
09:34:07 | linuxstb | Maybe update the libSDL then? |
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12:14:29 | bertrik | Anyone interested in some c200/e200 radio testing? |
12:14:52 | bertrik | e200 testing I mean |
12:16:01 | advcomp2019 | bertrik, what kind of radio testing? |
12:17:08 | bertrik | advcomp2019, some people have trouble with the radio disappearing from the root menu. I'd like to try some things to see if it makes the problem worse or better |
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12:19:39 | advcomp2019 | i have not ran into that yet myself but i have had another radio issue tho |
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12:24:30 | advcomp2019 | bertrik, the issue that i have with the radio is they are sometimes off frequency by 0.05 or 0.10MHz |
12:25:49 | bertrik | advcomp2019, I'm not looking into that right now |
12:26:49 | advcomp2019 | yea but i could try using my e200 and see if i can help you out tho |
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12:34:28 | bertrik | advcomp2019, can you try out this patch and see if it changes anything w.r.t. fm radio detection: http://pastebin.ca/1091677 |
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12:39:34 | advcomp2019 | ok sorry.. i did not know it was going to be something with building a build.. i have not tried a putting a patch in place.. i should read up a bit more |
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12:44:37 | Ave | is there a way to remove the peakmeter totally? cant see it mentioned in the theme |
12:46:04 | linuxstb | Just don't include the peakmeter tag. |
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12:49:24 | Ave | linuxstb: yes but its not there in any of the themes I've looked |
12:49:29 | bertrik | advcomp2019, ok no problem. BTW I do have some ideas about improving radio tuning accuracy, but I don't know if it makes a lot of difference |
12:49:33 | Ave | yet its there annoying me on the playback screen |
12:50:16 | Ave | I think there's something wrong in my theme setup.. the playback screen doesnt even change as I change the theme |
12:51:48 | bertrik | Ave, that's a common problem, something changed in the WPS syntax, see also http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=17507.0 |
12:52:46 | Ave | oh ic, well I had a problem in nighty build so I did my own svn update and built from there |
12:53:18 | Ave | oh noes, ok thanks |
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13:08:54 | Ave | turns out %pb definition was and is the problem |
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13:25:48 | BigBambi | bertrik: I don't use my e200/c200 often enough to have noticed if the radio periodically disappears, but if you would like I can test patches to see if they work etc |
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14:41:51 | bertrik | BigBambi, thanks for the offer. I never experienced a radio problem myself on my c200 (but I also didn't always check very carefully). I looked at the code yesterday and found some suspicious looking things, but after a closer look they look quite harmless. |
14:42:57 | BigBambi | OK, well let me know if you do |
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15:18:21 | BigBambi | Anyone know what "unported" means/might mean in the following "Creative Commons Attribution - Share Alike 3.0 Unported license" |
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15:40:26 | funman_ | In arm922t description I see that it has 2 coprocessors: cp14 & cp15 |
15:40:54 | funman_ | are they shortened to 'p14' and 'p15' are thos are different coprocessors ? |
15:41:04 | funman_ | or are those* |
15:42:21 | funman_ | well it seem they are just numbered, the prefix means CoProcessor or Processor |
15:42:30 | * | domonoky thinks "unported" in this context means that its the generic international version, and not a version for a specifc country/language |
15:44:42 | BigBambi | domonoky: Could well be :) |
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15:51:31 | JdGordon | is rb.org down? |
15:51:53 | LambdaCalculus37 | The main site is working here. |
15:51:53 | BigBambi | works here |
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15:54:03 | * | JdGordon cant get thourgh :( |
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16:02:19 | funman | recovery mode on sansav2 is obtained by briding the WP# pin of the NAND flash |
16:02:45 | funman | unfortunately on the Clip I don't see where it could be bridged :/ |
16:03:14 | funman | http://www.anythingbutipod.com/archives/images/sansa-clip-disassembled/sandisk-sansa-clip-disassembled-13.jpg < clip's nand flash |
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16:04:40 | bertrik | oh, I thought most flash chips were pretty similar |
16:05:11 | funman | yes but then they can do weird things on the pcb's circuit |
16:05:38 | funman | the standard says "when cleared to zero, the WP# signal disable flash array program and erase operations" |
16:06:14 | funman | I find strange on the e200 (http://flickr.com/photos/90053035@N00/2495460818/in/set-72157605072639496/) you can get the desired effect by bridging it (that would mean the signal is 1, no ?) |
16:06:27 | bertrik | but you can access all flash chip pins, right, why would you need to know what happens on the pcb? |
16:06:53 | funman | "can access", I could if my hands were 10 times smaller ;) |
16:07:12 | funman | I do not have any electric equipment |
16:09:16 | bertrik | do we have the data sheet of the flash chip? |
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16:10:08 | funman | bertrik: I believe (hope) they use the common wiring |
16:10:08 | funman | ONFI |
16:10:08 | funman | 48 pins |
16:11:57 | kugel | JdGordon: Someone uploaded a new version of the pf patch |
16:12:46 | JdGordon | oh goody |
16:13:02 | JdGordon | if my net didnt suck so much I'd check it out |
16:13:11 | kugel | He said he fixed your issue |
16:13:51 | JdGordon | i see... |
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16:15:36 | bertrik | funman, maybe you can just short it to a pin immediately next to it |
16:15:51 | JdGordon | kugel: my dns seems to be fubar so can you pastebin the updated patch for me? |
16:16:02 | linuxstb | BigBambi: I think "unported" means it's not ported to any particular jurustiction. |
16:16:42 | kugel | JdGordon: http://pastebin.ca/1091781 |
16:16:46 | BigBambi | linuxstb: Cheers - domonoky thought that too, so I'll go with that |
16:17:07 | linuxstb | Ah yes, I missed his reply... |
16:17:21 | funman | it's next to write enable signal |
16:19:52 | bertrik | yeah, maybe a bit dangerous |
16:20:25 | JdGordon | kugel: :) its working... now what were the changes? |
16:20:35 | bertrik | the other one is VSP3, an unspecified vendor specific signal, nothing may be connected to it |
16:21:08 | bertrik | can we figure out exactly which pins are shorted in the e280v2 pic? |
16:21:41 | kugel | JdGordon: great! |
16:21:58 | JdGordon | kugel: actually.. if you have the bmp resize patch in there... why not resize the cover for the track listing screen if there is room? :) |
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16:22:28 | JdGordon | hmm.. no it didnt work so well... almost none of my covers is showing |
16:23:01 | bluebrother | Llorean: the forums don't use the same favicon as the main website −− can we change that? |
16:23:53 | kugel | JdGordon: is every of your covers 100x100 |
16:24:47 | JdGordon | yes |
16:25:06 | kugel | hm |
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16:27:23 | JdGordon | kugel: http://pastebin.ca/1091783 |
16:28:35 | Llorean | bluebrother: Should be able to, yes. I'll look into it when I get home. |
16:29:16 | bluebrother | Llorean: nice :) |
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16:35:10 | funman_ | woohoo I got a special mode on the clip |
16:35:10 | funman_ | sadly it shows a 0mb hard disk |
16:35:10 | funman_ | I had to short together PIN 17 & 18 of the NAND |
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16:36:09 | LambdaCalculus37 | funman: It's progress. :) |
16:36:55 | funman | I suppose sansa didn't want to use this feature, and so didn't allocate any room for the recovery mode |
16:38:36 | kugel | JdGordon: Is the database properly initialized? |
16:39:05 | JdGordon | shouold be |
16:39:23 | JdGordon | yep |
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16:43:05 | kugel | JdGordon: Regarding the resizing for tracklist. Currently, I only implemented the resize algorithm for initializing-time. The resizing which is used for zoom in/zoom out(at selecting an album) or the zoom option in the settings is another algorithm |
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16:46:52 | funman | it works also by shorting IO pins |
16:47:25 | bertrik | funman, so it's probably anything that makes the crc over the data read by the sansa bl fail? |
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16:48:20 | bertrik | or maybe anything that makes the flash id fail |
16:48:46 | kugel | JdGordon: weird, that it doesn't find all album art |
16:49:44 | funman | bertrik: from what I read, it's a feature included in the SoC |
16:49:59 | funman | it will use its own bootloader if it fails to read from nand |
16:50:35 | funman | see http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=14064.msg127675#msg127675 |
16:50:45 | kugel | JdGordon: What happens if you turn of resizing in the pf settings? |
16:51:01 | kugel | (and reinitialize) |
16:51:13 | funman | maybe the firmware updater of sansa recognize this device and issues commands to it to flash a correct firmware |
16:51:33 | JdGordon | kugel: no change |
16:51:40 | * | JdGordon going to bed |
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16:51:47 | funman | I'll try that (I use virtualbox on linux to do usb device pass through till the virtual windows xp) |
16:52:53 | * | bertrik finds another inconsistency between voiced data and data shown on screen |
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17:10:53 | Soap | Who are the wiki admins? |
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17:19:08 | BigBambi | Soap: The Swedes I believe |
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17:24:52 | bertrik | what convention should rockbox use w.r.t. mebibytes vs. megabytes? |
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17:26:37 | tobbie | y |
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18:31:22 | amiconn | bertrik: Why does rockpaint not simply use lcd_drawline() ? |
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18:55:23 | linuxstb | amiconn: Looks like it does use lcd_drawline in places.... But it seems to keep it's own copy of the LCD contents in a "save_buffer", so is always drawing in two places. |
18:56:01 | amiconn | Sounds... unnecessary |
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19:10:37 | bertrik | amiconn, I was not aware of that function, but in hindsight it sounds logical that it would be available |
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19:13:37 | amiconn | I wonder why rockpaint needs that backbuffer |
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19:14:06 | amiconn | I know it saves .bmp as well as loading it, but then maybe the screendump function could be used for this |
19:15:34 | linuxstb | It seems to call a "restore_screen" function many times - after drawing UI things on top of the image. |
19:15:51 | amiconn | hmm |
19:16:22 | linuxstb | Which simply uses lcd_bitmap() to draw a full-screen bitmap (the save_buffer[]) |
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19:16:47 | amiconn | It may be necessary to keep the backbuffer then. I'd probably go for simple memcpy()ing in this case... |
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19:24:10 | linuxstb | amiconn: Do you have a view on the bitmap resize patch in flyspray? (FS #5697). It basically adds the following function to the core (in apps/recorder/resize.[ch]): void resize_bitmap(struct bitmap *src, struct bitmap *dst) |
19:25:43 | amiconn | grr, clicking a FS# in mibbit has an unwanted effect... |
19:25:57 | amiconn | It opens a new channel (because of the hash sign) |
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19:28:49 | amiconn | Well, the patch seems to do smooth resizing now. Can't say much as I don't have the possibility to test it right now, and there are lots of comments... |
19:30:58 | amiconn | I do agree that we need resizing in the core, and in fact it should imo have all of the following features: (1) Be smooth (i.e. no simple pixel dropping/ duplicating) (2) Be fast and compact. (3) Be available for all pixel formats which support album art (i.e. all depths >= 2) |
19:33:48 | amiconn | (3) shouldn't be difficult if it's done on the intermediate line buffer (that buffer is alwas 32 bit after unifying input data, before converting to the output format) |
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19:38:13 | amiconn | It may be necessary to keep 2 intermediate buffers though (for averaging), and I'm not sure whether it's a good idea to keep them on the stack then (right now it is, but that's already ~1.3KB for the target with the widest screen (ipod video), and will become worse with some new trgets (m:robe 500, Onda)) |
19:39:28 | linuxstb | Are you talking about resizing-on-load - in the read_bmp() function? |
19:39:34 | amiconn | yes |
19:40:04 | linuxstb | Because that's not what the patch does... It implements a resize_bitmap(src,dst) function. |
19:40:20 | amiconn | Hmm. Imho that's the wrong way |
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19:41:53 | amiconn | I think the main purpose is scaling down, and then you waste lots of ram if you resize after loading |
19:41:53 | linuxstb | Yes, that's my view as well. |
19:42:32 | amiconn | A good "live" resizing algorithm is what we need |
19:43:00 | amiconn | btw, I want one for the jpeg viewer as well, to do away with wasting screen space in the default view |
19:43:22 | amiconn | I also want (optional) auto rotation for best fit in the jpeg viewer |
19:43:23 | linuxstb | The AA-related parts of the patch don't look very reliable - IIUC, it just uses the remaining part of the audio buffer as temporary storage, ignoring wraparound issues. |
19:43:59 | amiconn | hmm |
19:44:15 | amiconn | I will have a closer look tomorrow, when I'm back home |
19:44:17 | linuxstb | Nico_P was going to look at the patch and comment, so I'm leaving that to him... |
19:44:23 | linuxstb | (the buffering issues) |
19:45:08 | amiconn | If all the mentioned parts are implemented, it may be fairly easy to add jpeg album art support. If we want that, that is |
19:45:23 | bertrik | I read about a smart algorithm (from DDJ IIRC) that first scaled the image down to about the proper size (bigger than target, but less than 2 times) by scaling down in steps of 2 (easy, just average 4 pixels), then did a bilinear step. Because the image is at this point less than twice as big as it needs to be finally, the bilinear algorithm only needs to consider 2 input pixels for each output pixel. |
19:46:03 | linuxstb | amiconn: I think the general view is that we do want jpeg album-art support. |
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19:46:59 | amiconn | bertrik: The idea itself sounds good, but there is a fundamental problem: the scaling algorithm we need needs to work with only 2 (maybe 3, but as few as possible) original lines available at most |
19:47:33 | amiconn | i.e. it will never have access to the complete original image at once |
19:47:36 | linuxstb | How does jpeg decoder decode the image? i.e. in what order do the pixels come out? |
19:48:14 | amiconn | It decodes in natural order, i.e. macroblock after macroblock |
19:49:02 | amiconn | But the jpeg viewer *does* buffer whole images (starting with the 1/8 x 1/8 scaled one, or the biggest one that fits the display, whatever is bigger) |
19:50:10 | amiconn | The advantage of using jpeg for album art would be that we don't need extreme scaling factors if we demand a sane limit for the input image, due to the possible "natural" jpeg downscaling |
19:51:03 | bertrik | Scaling by 2^x should be easy to do on-the-fly |
19:51:30 | amiconn | bertrik: It's simple in horizontal direction, but not so simple in vertical direction |
19:53:12 | bertrik | Are we really that restricted w.r.t. buffer space? |
19:55:13 | linuxstb | Some targets are... |
19:55:25 | amiconn | On most targets that support album art we aren't, but wasting resources can't be good |
19:55:44 | tehpaper | heh now theres an idea |
19:55:49 | tehpaper | a snes emu for rockbox |
19:56:09 | * | LambdaCalculus37 thinks tehpaper is completely bonkers |
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20:00 |
20:02:02 | bertrik | LambdaCalculus37, tehpaper? |
20:02:27 | tehpaper | play snes games on a mp3 player |
20:02:55 | | Part amiconn |
20:03:38 | LambdaCalculus37 | tehpaper: So you plan on emulating a 65C816 CPU, SPC700 chip, and the graphics chip, which is processor intensive already, on limited embedded hardware? |
20:03:40 | * | bluebrother has an idea: remove doom! |
20:03:42 | LambdaCalculus37 | Good luck with that! |
20:04:27 | kugel | linuxstb: Regarding the bmp resize, am I wrong when I assume that the smoother the algorithm should resize the more it needs about to know about the image (i.e. the more lines it needs at live resizing before doing anything)? |
20:04:33 | tehpaper | all im coming up with is an idea, dont be a dick. how about give reason A B and C why it wont work well |
20:04:43 | * | kugel hopes he got it |
20:05:57 | tehpaper | if you can get a full emu on a nokia phone i cant see how much harder it would be to get it on a ipod |
20:06:19 | petur | tehpaper: then start coding :P |
20:07:12 | linuxstb | kugel: I guess it would depend on the algorithm. Graphics processing isn't my speciality, so don't ask me... |
20:07:49 | linuxstb | tehpaper: nokia phones have about a 400MHz CPU, the ipods Rockbox run on have a 80MHz CPU... (although it's dual-core) |
20:08:37 | kugel | linuxstb: The algorithm satisfies all of amiconn's demands, the only issue seems to be the live-resizing |
20:08:47 | mcuelenaere | linuxstb: I don't think all nokia phones have a 400Mhz CPU, but at least they're indeed faster than an iPod |
20:09:05 | linuxstb | mcuelenaere: Don't spoil my argument ;) |
20:09:13 | mcuelenaere | :) |
20:09:17 | LambdaCalculus37 | The Gigabeat F and S would possibly be able to handle it, but still... |
20:09:29 | LambdaCalculus37 | Not many of the other targets can. |
20:09:31 | linuxstb | kugel: No, he said "that's the wrong way". |
20:10:26 | bertrik | as far as I understood, we can't load the image and then resize it |
20:10:27 | kugel | linuxstb: That's what I said. |
20:11:35 | kugel | bertrik: as far as I understood, we can, but it's not wanted |
20:11:52 | kugel | bertrik: the patch basically show that we can |
20:12:56 | * | bertrik looks up the patch again |
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20:17:40 | bertrik | as far as I understand (it could use some more comments), that patch also needs a big buffer containing the image in its original dimensions |
20:18:46 | linuxstb | Yes, the resize function takes a pointer to the input bitmap, and a pointer to the output bitmap. |
20:19:12 | bertrik | so it's out of the question because amiconn indicated we can buffer 2 or 3 lines at most |
20:20:16 | bertrik | s/can/are allowed to/ |
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20:41:26 | saratoga | for a bilinear interpolator, theres no sense buffering the entire image anyway |
20:41:31 | saratoga | you only ever need 2 lines |
20:44:24 | linuxstb | And another advantage of doing it on load is that it can be done before the pixels are packed into the device's LCD format - so it will be much simpler. |
20:47:51 | * | bertrik wonders if you can do interpolation with some bresenham-like algorithm |
20:48:24 | bertrik | hmm, speed is not nearly as important as ram and code size though |
20:52:52 | saratoga | bilinear should be about as fast and compact as you're going to get for a 2x2 point interpolation |
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20:58:12 | bertrik | but I assume we also need some kind of anti-aliasing |
20:59:25 | rasher | LambdaCalculus37: The Spanish translation contains some omissions, as can be seen here: rasher.dk/rockbox/translate/problems.php?lang=espanol">http://rasher.dk/rockbox/translate/problems.php?lang=espanol (for example, LANG_UNKNOWN is translated by "Unknown") |
20:59:53 | saratoga | bertrik: anti-aliasing is another word for interpolation |
21:00 |
21:00:04 | saratoga | in this case the AA is a linear interpolant |
21:01:41 | LambdaCalculus37 | rasher: No problem, I'll start looking through it and making some notes on how best to translate. |
21:02:03 | LambdaCalculus37 | One thing we should make sure of is that the Spanish translation is using Castillian Spanish. |
21:06:31 | LambdaCalculus37 | rasher: I'll do some work on it tonight. |
21:06:35 | * | LambdaCalculus37 has to go for now |
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21:10:14 | bertrik | saratoga, oh no, it's definitely not the same |
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21:16:09 | linuxstb | Seems the bmp resize patch used to do it in read_bmp(), but the idak came along and posted his implementation, and no-one asked why.... (unless I missed it). |
21:16:33 | * | linuxstb thinks 202 comments is a bit excessive for one task... |
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21:31:22 | kintesh | hello |
21:32:24 | Soap | I know a native castilian speaker - do you want me to use him? |
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21:32:36 | kintesh | dosre it works on my philips mp3 video player |
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21:33:22 | Soap | no |
21:34:14 | bertrik | bluebrother, I'm trying to create dutch voice files in rbutilqt, so I added "-v dutch-test" as TTS options, but I get a segmentation fault. Is this supposed to work yet? |
21:36:43 | bluebrother | bertrik: as espeak option? |
21:36:58 | bluebrother | that should work afaik. At least it shouldn't segfault ... |
21:37:32 | bertrik | bluebrother, yes, it segfaults in wavtrim when creating voice files |
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21:40:08 | bluebrother | strange. I just tried adding the same as espeak tts option. It doesn't work properly but at least it doesn't crash. |
21:40:29 | bluebrother | which OS are you using? I'm on linux. |
21:42:13 | bertrik | I'm on ubuntu, calling espeak with option -v dutch-test works fine on the command line |
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21:43:30 | bertrik | oh, it runs better with quotes around it |
21:44:13 | rasher | preglow: the Norwegian translation seems to be using "" rather than none, almost all over the place. |
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21:44:49 | ElChorristo | hi |
21:44:54 | bluebrother | bertrik: quotes around the complete string? |
21:45:19 | ElChorristo | is here one of the rockbox creators? |
21:45:34 | bluebrother | not really ... a bunch of 'em |
21:45:36 | bertrik | quotes around -v dutch-test so it looks like "-v dutch-test" in the input box |
21:45:55 | bluebrother | hmm, then that text should get automatically quoted. |
21:46:48 | ElChorristo | maybe they are intrestet: Theres is a tool to modify the iPod Touch firmware..maybe the can write a rockbox for it now. the tool is called "pwnage (Mac) and winpwn (windows) |
21:46:57 | ElChorristo | *interested |
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21:48:23 | bluebrother | said and leaves. Wow. |
21:49:09 | * | mcuelenaere thinks the buildserver is stuck again |
21:49:11 | goffa_ | maybe he was pwned? |
21:49:50 | BigBambi | Apple got him |
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21:52:52 | zePh7r | hi. I'm trying to submit a new lang file but tracker doesn't seem to be available... |
21:53:57 | mcuelenaere | zePh7r: the index page isn't available, the rest is |
21:54:05 | linuxstb | zePh7r: Some pages don't work (known issue), but you should be able to access the patch page directly - http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/index.php?type=4 - and then "Add new task" |
21:56:29 | * | domonoky does not understand why you would need to quote the options string for espeak, its already quoted in the template.. (see tts.cpp) |
22:00 |
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22:03:00 | bluebrother | domonoky: I guess you must *not* quote the options string −− looks like espeak treats the string as a single input if quoted |
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22:03:34 | bluebrother | and I wouldn't be surprised if the other tts' would behave the same. Basically you're grouping all parts of the options into a single string ... |
22:04:20 | bertrik | Hmm, I inputted -v dutch-test, but on the console it shows Failed to read voice ' dutch-test' (with a space as the first character) |
22:04:30 | bluebrother | yeps: just tried it. If I run "espeak -v de" from the command line it works as expected. If I run "espeak "-v de"" it still works but the wrong language is chosen. |
22:04:44 | domonoky | hm, thats right.. should remove the quotes for the options in the template :-) |
22:05:33 | bluebrother | you only need to make sure the option string is getting passed as whole, but with QStrings there shouldn't be any issue about this ... |
22:06:15 | bertrik | It seems to work without the space, like -vdutch-test or -vnl |
22:07:06 | bluebrother | works with space for me too (at least from the command line) |
22:07:41 | bertrik | bluebrother, yes it works here too on the command line, just not in rbutilqt |
22:07:45 | domonoky | can someone test with the quotes removed from the template ? ( i dont have espeak installed at moment).. |
22:08:42 | bluebrother | heh: that won't work. QProcess::execute() wants a QStringList for the arguments, so you need to split it up. |
22:08:49 | bluebrother | will try, gimme a few minutes. |
22:09:34 | domonoky | no i give the complete string with options and all to execute, no stringList.. |
22:10:18 | domonoky | so just removing the quotes from the template should work.. |
22:10:52 | bluebrother | but that's strange: from the docs it's int QProcess::execute ( const QString & program, const QStringList & arguments ) |
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22:12:02 | domonoky | bluebrother: there is a overloaded version which takes the complete string with arguments.. |
22:12:21 | bluebrother | also, ignoring the return code of execute() doesn't seem like a good idea to me |
22:12:30 | bluebrother | domonoky: can't find this overloaded version in the docs :/ |
22:12:49 | domonoky | http://doc.trolltech.com/4.4/qprocess.html#execute-2 |
22:12:51 | linuxstb | Maybe it only matters on some OSes.... But on Unix, the arguments should be a list (IIUC) |
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22:13:46 | bluebrother | that doesn't tell anything about the arguments −− it only has QString& program |
22:14:05 | linuxstb | "program is a single string of text containing both the program name and its arguments. The arguments are separated by one or more spaces." |
22:14:07 | bluebrother | ah, now I see |
22:14:21 | * | bluebrother didn't read far enough |
22:14:55 | domonoky | and checking the return code is difficult, as the TTSExes is a generic Executable TTS class, not all give the same return codes.. |
22:15:28 | bluebrother | can't we assume all executables giving the return code 0 if no error occured? |
22:15:40 | domonoky | someday we should use the espeak libarary instead of the exe.. or even a built-in version of espeak.. |
22:16:16 | linuxstb | You would need to go GPLv3 for rbutil if you did that though... |
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22:17:07 | bluebrother | yep, removing the quotes helps. |
22:17:22 | bluebrother | who wants to commit? |
22:17:23 | domonoky | arg, always this licence problems... |
22:17:28 | | Part Llorean |
22:17:32 | linuxstb | domonoky: I don't think it's a problem though. |
22:17:59 | linuxstb | sansapatcher/ipodpatcher are already "v2 or later", what is Qt? |
22:18:00 | | Quit zePh7r (Connection timed out) |
22:18:07 | domonoky | bluebrother: go for it.. |
22:19:33 | num1_away | I'm trying to add translations to the turkish language file, but I realized a lot of the translations that were already there had had their characters romanized,( c instead of ç and so forth) is it not possible to use unicode chars in the translations? |
22:20:32 | linuxstb | num1_away: Yes, lang files can (and should) be utf-8 |
22:20:36 | domonoky | it seems Qt is v2 or later, so should be okey... |
22:20:36 | bluebrother | ok, committed. |
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22:20:51 | linuxstb | Maybe those strings date from before Rockbox had unicode support. |
22:21:12 | bluebrother | Qt4.4 introduces a GPL3 license option IIRC. |
22:21:48 | bluebrother | but I'm not sure if I would want rbutil having a different license than rockbox itself |
22:21:50 | bertrik | How much impact does it have for other languages when I change an english string? |
22:22:11 | * | domonoky checked a Qt source file, states v2 or v3, any later, approved (from trolltech and KDE) version.. |
22:22:36 | num1 | how does the <voice> tag work in language files? |
22:22:39 | bluebrother | bertrik: in rbutil translations? |
22:22:47 | bluebrother | s/in/for/ |
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22:22:59 | bertrik | bluebrother, no, for the rockbox firmware |
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22:23:01 | num1 | I mean, where do you put the voice sound files and how do you give it a name for the language file to use? |
22:23:04 | linuxstb | bluebrother: I can't see it causing any issues. Rockbox itself is v2 or later, so will always be compatible with rbutil. And individual parts of rbutil could still be "v2 or later", just the whole thing is v3.... |
22:23:06 | * | linuxstb sighs... |
22:23:48 | Lear | bertrik: Changing the meaning of a string isn't good. The other languages would show the old meaning until updated. |
22:24:27 | domonoky | num1: the voice tag in language files is uses by our voicegeneration (buildsystem or rbutil) to generate the voiceclips via a tts engine.. . |
22:24:59 | bertrik | Lear, it's not really the meaning that I want to change, but some C format converters, see http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/9237 |
22:25:04 | num1 | domonoky: what happens if the tts engine doesn't support a given language? |
22:25:30 | bluebrother | linuxstb: true, but I'm not sure if I would be happy with such a split license situation. |
22:25:46 | domonoky | num1: then you should use another tts engine, or it will sound ugly.. :-) |
22:26:44 | domonoky | theoretically it also possible to generate a voice out of human speech, but thats too much work.. |
22:26:55 | bluebrother | bertrik: IMO we should use either IEC prefixes or SI prefixes, but always use the correct divider / abbreviation ... |
22:27:14 | rasher | domonoky: it's not as much work as you'd think. I did it at one point, took about 5-6 hours total to record the samples, but I haven't been updating. |
22:27:15 | bluebrother | domonoky: well, if someone wants to do the job ... ;-) |
22:27:33 | num1 | domonoky: isn't that what tts engines do anyway :D |
22:27:57 | rasher | num1: Sounds good that you're willing to do the Turkish translation - maybe it's easier to just start over, by editing a copy of english.lang and translating everything in <dest> and <voice>, since the current turkish translation is VERY outdated |
22:28:02 | bertrik | bluebrother, OK, the patch just tries to be consistent with the current rockbox convention (which may be wrong) |
22:28:07 | rasher | (and as you say, doesn't properly use utf-8) |
22:28:45 | bluebrother | it has been discussed before, but I'm strongly in favor of being correct. 1024 bytes is *not* 1 kilobyte. |
22:29:39 | Lear | bertrik: Well, not the absolute meaning, but the change is "big", so to speak. In this case, unfixed languages would show something like "Buf: %d.%03dMB 28.1 MB". Not fatal, but not pretty either. :) |
22:29:50 | Bagder | bluebrother: "A kilobyte (derived from the SI prefix kilo-, meaning 1,000) is a unit of information or computer storage equal to either 1,024 bytes (210) or 1,000 bytes (103), depending on context." |
22:29:58 | Bagder | (from wikipedia) |
22:30:05 | rasher | bluebrother: you've got my support. We should change instances to be 1000-based, or use the binary prefixes, as appropriate (I assume bitrates use powers-of-ten based prefixes). |
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22:30:18 | rasher | Bagder: IETF, ISO and that other one disagrees. |
22:30:23 | bluebrother | Bagder: well, while that is common useage it's technically not correct. |
22:30:26 | num1 | rasher: allright, I'll do that. Should I just translate and copy strings from dest to voice? Why are there two fields there? |
22:30:43 | Bagder | bluebrother, rasher: you can argue that, people will still disagree |
22:30:50 | rasher | num1: Because in some cases, the two may not be identical (or either one of them are empty) |
22:30:51 | bertrik | Lear, so *if* I change it, I should do this to all languages, right? |
22:30:53 | Bagder | kilo is 1000 and 1024, face it |
22:31:04 | rasher | Bagder: Only until we sort out the damage done |
22:31:09 | bluebrother | kilo is 1000 and some people think it's 1024, including windows. |
22:31:24 | bluebrother | as per *Standard* it's always 1000. |
22:31:36 | Bagder | bluebrother: "people" thought it was 1024 even before windows existed |
22:31:50 | num1 | rasher: In what cases would they be different? It seems like you want the program to read what is printed on the screen |
22:31:51 | Bagder | in computer land kilo was always 1025 |
22:31:53 | Bagder | 1024 |
22:32:00 | rasher | Bagder: Not true either |
22:32:02 | Bagder | until people started to deal with the confusion |
22:32:13 | bluebrother | "computer land" is no standard ... |
22:32:21 | Bagder | I learn kilo == 1024 in the 80s |
22:32:26 | Bagder | learned |
22:32:26 | bluebrother | it's just some kind of usage. |
22:32:29 | rasher | Kilo has been 1000, at first, then it became either 1024 or 1000. |
22:32:33 | Lear | bertrik: That would be nice, and it should be possible to figure out what the "MB" part is, even if you don't speak the language in question. |
22:32:36 | rasher | bluebrother: Computers weren't invented in the 80s though |
22:32:45 | num1 | Bagder: It depends on whether you're a hard drive maker/marketer or a programmer :D |
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22:32:46 | bertrik | as usual, xkcd has something to say about it too: http://xkcd.com/394/ :P |
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22:33:01 | rasher | num1: Perhaps you want to use an abbreviation on the screen, but spell out the full words |
22:33:07 | Bagder | num1: I'm not convinced they've been consistent either |
22:33:09 | Lear | Bagder: Except when dealing with mass storage manufacturers... |
22:33:13 | rasher | num1: Or a scientist... |
22:33:15 | linuxstb | Just display it in bytes... |
22:33:20 | num1 | rasher: lol |
22:33:25 | rasher | Or CORRECT, for that matter. |
22:33:30 | num1 | bertrik: okay, thanks. That makes sense |
22:33:32 | rasher | Which the hard drive makers happen to be. |
22:33:35 | bluebrother | well, I really don't care if use kiB or kB, but if we use 1024 as divider it should be kiB. |
22:34:07 | bertrik | KiB? |
22:34:10 | * | rasher already changed dansk.lang to do this in places where the translation can handle it |
22:34:15 | rasher | bertrik: 1KiB = 1024 bytes |
22:34:18 | * | num1 deals with the Intel Kilobyte every day |
22:34:35 | bertrik | yes, I know, but bluebrother called it kiB |
22:34:55 | * | bluebrother blames the shift key |
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22:35:14 | * | domonoky wants this KiB = 1024 * sqrt(-i) from kcd.. :-) |
22:35:26 | rasher | (and I checked - the prefixes in the langfiles are *only* used in powers-of-two based contexts) |
22:35:41 | bluebrother | I think it's sqrt(-1) ;-) |
22:36:21 | * | domonoky wants complex disk sizes.. :-) |
22:36:36 | rasher | Kilo has consistently meant 1000 for many hundred years. It has never consistently meant 1024, even within the realms of computing, for the past 40 years. Ising kilo to mean 1024 is sloppy and bad. |
22:36:59 | rasher | Something that could also be said for my typing. |
22:37:12 | linuxstb | rasher: It's consistently meant 1024 when dealing with numbers of bytes, at least in my mind... |
22:37:45 | bluebrother | besides, the binary prefixes were invented several years ago to end this confusion. Unless we use them the confusion won't get better but only worse, especially for users. |
22:37:49 | rasher | linuxstb: That's not what reality has to say on the matter. Harddrive makers for one, transmissions speeds for another. |
22:38:05 | bluebrother | linuxstb: just think of network speeds −− in that context it was always 1000. |
22:38:09 | * | num1 thinks defining capitalization to change meaning is retarded and opening the door to misunderstandings |
22:38:09 | linuxstb | Transmission speeds are in bits |
22:38:46 | rasher | linuxstb: do you really think we should base our prefixes on bits vs bytes, and expect everyone to be on the same page? |
22:39:13 | rasher | Fact is, when you see KiB, you *know* what is meant, the same can't be said for kB |
22:39:31 | * | bluebrother really doesn't understand why it's so hard to simply switch to IEC prefixes |
22:39:39 | bluebrother | it only makes things clearer. |
22:39:42 | rasher | At least not until people start using the binary prefixes |
22:40:05 | rasher | Right, IEEE-1541, ISO/IEC-80000 is what I meant |
22:40:05 | bluebrother | which is generally a good thing. |
22:40:19 | linuxstb | rasher: I didn't say that. I just said that in my mind, MB, KB etc are binary, and have been for the last 25 years since I started using computers. |
22:40:38 | rasher | linuxstb: But it's not true though. You constantly have to stop and think. |
22:40:59 | bluebrother | buy a 80GB harddisk for your dap of choice ... |
22:41:08 | rasher | On top of using a different definition of scientific terms than what the rest of the world |
22:41:17 | * | domonoky has no problem with changing to display KiB instead of kB.. changing to /1000 would be bad.. |
22:41:23 | bertrik | MB and kB were always very clear to me until harddisk makers started to cut corners |
22:41:24 | rasher | I really don't understand why people don't want to fix it |
22:41:30 | linuxstb | No I don't. I know the exception of disk manufacturers. |
22:41:58 | bluebrother | maybe you know, but how about users? They are constantly confused. |
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22:42:34 | num1 | "Gain" (LANG_GAIN) means the eq/recording volume? |
22:42:59 | rasher | I really don't see why admitting that we're not using the terms in their *actual meaning* is such a problem, and moving on to use the proper terminology is an even bigger problem |
22:43:01 | bluebrother | "help! My 20GB DAP shows only 18.something in explorer!" |
22:43:13 | rasher | num1: Correct, amplification |
22:43:24 | num1 | lol @ bluebrother |
22:43:42 | bluebrother | num1: unfortunately this isn't uncommon among users. |
22:44:07 | bluebrother | "something is eating up my disc space, explorer doesn't show what I've paid for!" |
22:44:15 | domonoky | just screw those users, we dont need them ! *haha* :-) |
22:44:34 | * | bluebrother hears some evil laughter :o |
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22:44:40 | bertrik | the men-in-black confiscated it to spy on you |
22:45:17 | rasher | bluebrother: I find it somewhat ironic that harddrive makers have been forced to write a fairy tale to compensate for Windows being wrong. "Some space will be used for system files and might not be available for you" |
22:45:53 | bluebrother | iirc gnome also shows binary prefixes ... why can't we do? |
22:46:07 | * | num1 creates some wierd-ass disk format that stores the partition table and such on a *different* disk, and then sells harddrives marketed as not ripping you off and giving you all the space you paid for |
22:46:27 | bluebrother | rasher: true. But eating up 1.something GB of a 80GB or so HDD is really much system ;-) |
22:46:42 | rasher | bluebrother: As far as I can tell, the answer is "everyone understands this", apparently. |
22:47:17 | bluebrother | sure ... windows also reservers (amount of memory + a bit) on my disc for hibernating whole the time |
22:47:46 | bluebrother | so this can get quite a bit of space. But it doesn't address the issue itself. |
22:47:58 | num1 | well linux has swapfiles, so this isn't an only windows thing |
22:48:15 | petur | I think they mean the partition structures, like the MFT |
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22:48:45 | num1 | petur: that was the "and such" |
22:49:33 | petur | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTFS#Metafiles |
22:49:39 | petur | (for windows) |
22:49:41 | rasher | petur: I don't think they mean anything in particular. They just have to put *something* there. Remember, they were sued (and lost, though I don't know where) for using scientific terms correctly (!) |
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22:51:56 | bluebrother | I've seen newer hard drives having an explanation like "GB means 1 millin bytes" printed on them |
22:52:06 | bluebrother | /millin/million/ |
22:53:09 | bluebrother | still, I'd really like to see Rockbox using correct terms, regardless if this means changing the prefix or the divider. |
22:53:23 | XavierGr | I have to agree with linuxstb and Bagder on this, while the ISO kilo is definitely 1000, I've always knew that in storage a kilobyte is 1024 bytes. That's what I've been constantly encounter except storage manufacturers |
22:53:56 | petur | bluebrother: most drives have had that on their label for years now |
22:54:12 | rasher | XavierGr: Why is it a problem to adjust that KiB *definitely* means 1024 bytes, rather than kB *probably* means 1024 bytes? |
22:54:16 | rasher | Why cling to this uncertainty? |
22:54:39 | bluebrother | XavierGr: only because it has been used that way doesn't make it more correct. And we have a correct way since several (!) years now, so what's the point in not following it? |
22:55:29 | * | petur thinks KiB, MiB,... sound silly |
22:55:37 | linuxstb | I accept the logic of using KiB, I just don't like the way "KB" has been stolen from me by marketing people... |
22:55:46 | linuxstb | And I agree with petur... |
22:55:52 | XavierGr | rasher, bluebrother: well other than that some users might not be used to KiB, I don't find a reason not using it. Though it would be silly to use kilo as 1000 in this context |
22:56:07 | petur | AND it uses 50% more bytes to store! |
22:56:16 | XavierGr | petur: rofl |
22:56:38 | * | bluebrother hands petur some bytes |
22:56:58 | * | petur wonders if they go with his current beer |
22:57:08 | rasher | linuxstb: Stolen by marketing people? Would you listen to yourself! You've been using the *factually and objectively wrong* terms the entire time, and now you complain that you don't want to use actually correct terms because that's what marketing guys do? |
22:57:13 | * | rasher boggles |
22:57:34 | bluebrother | XavierGr: using KiB is even an advantage IMO −− people won't expect it to be the same as the kB that's printed on their disc (ok, this would rather be GB ...) |
22:57:53 | petur | in the early days, KB *always* meant 1024 ! |
22:57:53 | XavierGr | so yeah I wouldn't mind seeing KiB and keep the /1024, but it would be very confusing to change it to /1000 and keep KB |
22:57:59 | linuxstb | rasher: No, I've always been taught in computing that the multiplier was 1024. Which makes sense, because that's the natural unit. |
22:58:12 | bluebrother | petur: true, but we aren't in those early days anymore ;-) |
22:58:25 | rasher | petur: That's not true either. |
22:58:27 | * | petur heads for the time machine |
22:58:27 | bluebrother | everything was better in the past *snif* ;-) |
22:59:03 | rasher | One of the relevant wikipedia articles references very early material using powers-of-ten prefixes |
22:59:07 | XavierGr | damn storage manufacturers and their evil marketing tricks |
22:59:21 | XavierGr | rasher: in computing? |
22:59:27 | rasher | XavierGr: Certainly |
22:59:41 | num1 | maybe we should use KB to mean 1000 and 0xKB to mean 1024 :D |
22:59:52 | bluebrother | damn IEC creating binary prefixes! Those bastards, only striving to end this wonderful confusion! |
23:00 |
23:00:11 | bluebrother | display the space as hex value? |
23:00:12 | rasher | XavierGr: bitrates should (continue to?) use Kbit/s |
23:00:30 | petur | let's go octal |
23:00:33 | * | bertrik thinks kibi and mebi sound silly too and can't remember the last time he heard someone using it (except for discussions how silly it is) |
23:01:02 | bluebrother | well, is 128KBit 128*10^3 bytes or 120*2^10? AFAIK it's 10^3 so this is correct. |
23:01:02 | rasher | bertrik: you rarely need to be very precise in speech, so you can keep using your imprecise units if you like |
23:02:06 | num1 | What does LANG_SCANNING_DISK "Scanning disk..." mean? Are we looking for something on the disk? |
23:02:16 | linuxstb | rasher: So do you always write MiB etc? |
23:02:29 | rasher | linuxstb: I try to, whenever it makes sense |
23:02:52 | linuxstb | When doesn't it make sense? |
23:02:55 | rasher | It's really very rarely an issue |
23:03:25 | rasher | linuxstb: if you're giving the size of an mp3 for example, using MB doesn't matter, because you're being awfully imprecise anyway |
23:03:26 | domonoky | num1: this is shown when dircache and/or the database scanns the disc for new/changed files, i think |
23:03:56 | rasher | num1: it's not a search, but a look through the disk to "visit" everything |
23:04:30 | num1 | rasher: to "visit" everything? |
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23:04:43 | rasher | num1: inspect all files |
23:04:56 | XavierGr | on a sidenote, anyone tried to battery benchmark a gigabeast? |
23:05:11 | num1 | okay, I'm gonna translate this one as "Checking the disk" |
23:05:15 | XavierGr | mine got only 6 hours with rockbox, haven't tested the OF yet. |
23:05:58 | rasher | num1: you can also modify it later if you discover it doesn't make sense when using Rockbox |
23:06:22 | num1 | rasher: that's a good point, thanks |
23:06:37 | bertrik | actually, I don't mind really what convention rockbox uses, as long as we're consistent about it |
23:07:02 | rasher | num1: A translation you're not completely sure about is better than no translation imho. Errors can be easily fixed |
23:07:28 | bluebrother | I don't mind that either, but I want it to be correct −− which currently isn't the case. |
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23:14:00 | rasher | I wonder if it might be possible to get someone "proffesional" to do a human voicefile. It's "only" 600 strings. |
23:15:24 | num1 | rasher: If someone spent the time to make a decent GUI for recording voice clips for rockbox it wouldn't be a bad idea. |
23:15:57 | linuxstb | rasher: Could be nice for 3.0... But then what languages do we pay for? (presumably we would need to pay...) |
23:16:57 | num1 | Well, the people who are doing translations already are presumably fluent in the language, and you don't have to pay for them to talk into a can |
23:17:23 | rasher | num1: not everyone's got great voices |
23:17:55 | linuxstb | Anyone know how many words are in the English .lang? |
23:18:01 | rasher | I more or less abandoned my own attempt mostly because the result was quite awful (beyond the fact that you always think you sound funny) |
23:18:26 | bluebrother | well, an "awful" voice is rather subjective. |
23:18:29 | rasher | linuxstb: wc -w says 1174 |
23:18:51 | rasher | (on a text file with raw voicestrings) |
23:19:10 | linuxstb | Hmm, then that would be £1174 pounds with the person I was thinking of... |
23:19:34 | linuxstb | (someone who did some British English voicing for Asterisk - http://www.enicomms.com/cutglassivr/ ) |
23:19:59 | rasher | linuxstb: that's rather a lot |
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23:20:52 | linuxstb | Hopefully that price (1 GBP per word) is just for smaller jobs... |
23:21:29 | bluebrother | shouldn't it be rather easy to write a script that presents you a string, waits for a button, then records until next button press and use that recording? |
23:21:41 | bluebrother | maybe adding a retry button too |
23:22:15 | num1 | bluebrother: that's what I was thinking about |
23:22:24 | rasher | I found that reading 10-15 clips in one recording, then cutting it up in audacity was quite fast |
23:22:37 | linuxstb | It would be easy to script it with Asterisk.... |
23:22:52 | num1 | even if some people had bad voices, if you made a gui really simple to use enough people would do the voiceovers that you could choose the best ones |
23:23:09 | sin613 | i just gave my old boss a call. he does a radio show and might be willing to contribute. hopefully get a call back in a few minutes |
23:23:46 | bluebrother | make it a contest ;-) |
23:24:28 | num1 | lol, winner gets 10% of our income, bty we don't have any :D |
23:24:54 | rasher | We do, actually - donations |
23:25:26 | scorche | could always see if a geeky celebrity to do it pro bono ;) |
23:25:47 | rasher | Wil Wheaton or something |
23:26:19 | sin613 | maybe a geeky musician |
23:26:29 | sin613 | who already gives away music |
23:27:03 | scorche | hasnt Robin Williams been seen around Linux conventions? |
23:27:08 | num1 | Jonathan Coulton's given away a lot of his music, and his voice's pretty good |
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23:28:23 | rasher | Musicians are probably even more likely |
23:28:28 | sin613 | the good thing about musicians is that you've got voice talent |
23:28:38 | rasher | And the equipment |
23:28:52 | sin613 | yeah |
23:29:02 | sin613 | and more than likely the know-how |
23:29:31 | rasher | They don't even have to do editing. They could just record the entire list in one giant take, and I'm sure we could take care of the editing |
23:30:54 | sin613 | it would likely be better that way |
23:31:16 | ze | i've got equip and knowhow... dunno bout the voice though, but i could to a test later and see if anyone likes it |
23:31:34 | sin613 | nice voice mic? |
23:31:39 | ze | yeah |
23:31:43 | rasher | ze: I've a script that produces a clean list of strings |
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23:31:59 | sin613 | what model? |
23:32:01 | rasher | ze: FS #7650 |
23:32:07 | ze | oktava mk219 |
23:32:11 | num1 | rasher: In one giant take? You want to sit in front of a mic for 1174 lines? that's almost 20 minutes stright! |
23:32:43 | sin613 | another possibility would be asking someone from a popular tech or recording podcast |
23:32:44 | rasher | num1: well they could pause or do a couple of takes :) I just mean that they don't have to do the boring work of cutting it into tiny chunks |
23:33:10 | rasher | There are plenty of good options, really |
23:33:34 | sin613 | podcast producer would be great since it would likely increase exposure for rockbox |
23:34:16 | sin613 | people from other countries might be able to locate podcast producers in their native toungue to serve as voice talent |
23:34:32 | rasher | sin613: a good point |
23:35:06 | sin613 | it's a given they'll already have the equipment, the voice, and the know-how |
23:35:24 | bertrik | we'll never get that done before 3.0 unless we delay it |
23:35:27 | sin613 | if they get credit and more traffic, they'll likely do it gratis |
23:35:50 | rasher | bertrik: Luckily, voicefiles can be added retro-actively |
23:35:54 | BigBambi | There are people that do podcats with highly annoying voices :) |
23:36:00 | BigBambi | podcasts too |
23:36:17 | rasher | BigBambi: I'd wager it's most of them! |
23:36:24 | BigBambi | :) |
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23:36:57 | sin613 | that's true, but there are many out there with good voices |
23:37:24 | BigBambi | It'd be nice to have for e.g. English a couple with different accents too |
23:37:27 | bluebrother | now we need to delay 3.0 ... ;-) |
23:37:36 | BigBambi | e.g. UK, US, Aus |
23:37:57 | sin613 | the voice files weren't going to bundled with the release, were they? |
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23:38:25 | bluebrother | no, you download it separately. |
23:38:26 | kugel | Hmm, just got a giant time out without noticing |
23:38:41 | sin613 | so will it matter if they're released at the same time? |
23:38:45 | bluebrother | but there is a remaining issue: rbutil only installs the most recent voicefile, there is no selection. |
23:38:55 | kugel | I already thought there was no talk here since 3 hours |
23:39:03 | sin613 | if only there were some way to get at the source and change that... j/k |
23:39:04 | * | petur posts another recscreen patch and nudges pixelma |
23:39:06 | domonoky | if we really want this, we should do some modifications to our voicebuilding script, so that we can easily regenerate the voicefiles from the source wavs.. |
23:39:23 | | Join Imaginal [0] (n=travis@74-60-4-104.sea.clearwire-dns.net) |
23:39:36 | bluebrother | doesn't the voice script already allow for a voice pool? |
23:39:39 | rasher | domonoky: it's not hard to do with a simple wrapper script that calls the buildsystem - see FS7650 |
23:39:40 | linuxstb | bluebrother: Does rbutil still (I think the wx version did) have an option to choose a Rockbox release when installing? |
23:39:50 | bluebrother | linuxstb: yes. |
23:39:59 | Imaginal | When I click through database-> recently added, nothing shows up. How do I make this feature work? |
23:40:10 | bluebrother | Imaginal: initialize the database. |
23:40:28 | bluebrother | or update it if you already have initialized. Keep in mind that you need to reboot after initializing the database |
23:41:24 | Imaginal | bluebrother: the database has been initialized. I can browse other options, and autoupdate is turned on. I frequently reset it |
23:41:51 | bluebrother | reset what? The database? |
23:41:57 | Imaginal | the ipod |
23:41:58 | linuxstb | bluebrother: There's also the manual as well... |
23:42:12 | bluebrother | linuxstb: true ... |
23:42:28 | BigBambi | Imaginal: Why do you reset often? |
23:42:35 | linuxstb | Imaginal: resetting (holding MENU+SELECT) is like pulling the plug on your PC. You should do a clean shutdown (hold PLAY for a couple of seconds) |
23:43:42 | Imaginal | understood. I meant that I've been changing a lot of things with it that require resetting, so it has been reset since initializing and updating |
23:44:17 | bluebrother | Imaginal: changing options in Rockbox *never* require a *reset*. They require a *reboot*, which means you need to shut down cleanly |
23:44:20 | linuxstb | What requires resetting? |
23:44:27 | bluebrother | otherwise you can expect problems. |
23:44:30 | BigBambi | I can't think of anything tht needs a reset |
23:44:43 | Imaginal | hmm. cool |
23:44:48 | BigBambi | ]If you reset, rockbox doesn't get chance to write the status to disk |
23:44:59 | | Quit jhulst (No route to host) |
23:45:08 | bluebrother | resetting is almost *never* needed. |
23:45:41 | * | bluebrother sighs. Once you disclose the reset procedure users tend to use that all the time |
23:45:50 | Imaginal | but recently added seems like something the involves the transfer time, and would be writter at the beginning of the transfer |
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23:46:13 | BigBambi | The disk isn't spun up on every track change, that would kill battery |
23:46:57 | BigBambi | Most things are kept in memory then written when the disk is spun to read more music into memory. If you reset, the data held in memory never has chance to get written to disk (which happens as part of the shutdown procedure) |
23:47:32 | linuxstb | Imaginal: It's hard to diagnose if there's a problem because you've been resetting your ipod. Try adding some files and doing a clean shutdown, and see if you still have problems. |
23:47:54 | bluebrother | resetting the Ipod when not needed isn't a good idea anyway, regardless of the state of the currently running software |
23:48:07 | * | BigBambi just realised he didn't quite understand Imaginal's last sentence |
23:48:08 | Imaginal | I understand. I'll give it a try and get back to you. Thanks again |
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23:56:21 | pixelma | I believe "recently added" needs the "Gather Runtime Data" option to be set. Not sure if it is in the manual but I think I read it on the DataBase wiki page |
23:56:49 | pixelma | bleh, didn't see he already left |
23:56:54 | * | kugel agrees with bluebrother and rasher on the previous discussion on KB/KiB |
23:57:12 | pixelma | petur: looking |
23:57:42 | petur | pixelma: maybe wait a moment, I seem to have a drawing issue in the ondio sim |
23:57:47 | rasher | pixelma: I added detection of wrong "" vs none on my language problems page |
23:58:03 | pixelma | rasher: nice :) |
23:58:48 | rasher | I don't think I'm going to change the logic on the translation page, because it really is translators not being awake, and at least like this, the string is kept, even though it's in the wrong place |
23:59:00 | kugel | Has anyone noticed the go-back-behavior of wps context menu items being very inconsistent? |