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| 00:05:09 | * | linuxstb doesn't even want them in imported code |
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| 00:10:44 | rasher | God invented diff -w for a reason. |
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| 00:35:27 | * | bluebrother spots domonoky |
| 00:35:43 | * | domonoky waves |
| 00:36:24 | bluebrother | interested in looking at my bootloader install rework status? I'd like to get that damn thing finished asap. |
| 00:37:09 | domonoky | i can take a look at it tomorrow... |
| 00:37:40 | bluebrother | would be nice |
| 00:37:57 | bluebrother | current diff: http://www.stud.uni-karlsruhe.de/~uhcn/rockbox/rbutil/rbutil-bootloader-rework-4.diff |
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| 01:43:42 | linuxstb | rasher: Do you have (or know of) a script to sort a lang file into the same order as english.lang? |
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| 02:07:38 | --> | "delete quote test" received from xnate (n=nate@ppp-70-242-183-125.dsl.lbcktx.swbell.net) |
| 02:08:26 | toffe82 | linuxstb: rasher: I know it is from microsoft, but you can download the microsoft terminology translation for free, it contains 40 languages and a lot of words |
| 02:08:28 | toffe82 | http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=25018024-2DFD-4229-9763-05F78FEAF2FF&displaylang=en |
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| 02:10:05 | toffe82 | so you can compare the words used in Rockbock with the "standard terminology" |
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| 02:14:47 | toffe82 | at least it is a good dictionnary: "12" in english is translated "12" in french:) |
| 02:14:50 | toffe82 | :) |
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| 02:18:51 | linuxstb | toffe82: Interesting. Although the Catalan column seems very empty... |
| 02:19:07 | toffe82 | yes |
| 02:20:51 | toffe82 | I think there is a more complete than this one, I had it before but don't know were it is and can't find it anymore on the microsoft site |
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| 02:39:52 | toffe82 | linuxstb: rasher: you can check here too http://www.microsoft.com/language/en/us/download.mspx |
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| 04:04:34 | scorche|sh | linuxstb: not sure if you are still awake, but yes it was a legal thing...if we manually approve things, we essentially "had a chance" to search for copyright violations...the process should be as automatic as possible or if we do have some sort of manual selection (which is less desirable from a legal standpoint), it needs to be for technical purposes only in order to comply...see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_Copyright_Infringement_Liability_Limi |
| 04:05:01 | scorche|sh | see |
| 04:05:01 | scorche|sh | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_Copyright_Infringement_Liability_Limitation_Act for more info |
| 04:05:57 | scorche|sh | (it didnt all go through)...it is mainly about giving us an opportunity to see that copyright is being infringed and can be pointed to that we had prior knowledge of the infringement |
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| 05:57:09 | holscher | how do i stop my the mp5 plugin on my ipod? |
| 06:00 |
| 06:01:09 | advcomp2019 | what mp5 plugin? |
| 06:01:23 | holscher | md5 oops |
| 06:01:43 | holscher | is seems like it's running a md5sum on a lot of files... are the no way that i can turn my ipod off? |
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| 06:02:48 | holscher | on everything actually... every file on my full 80gb hd.. |
| 06:04:30 | holscher | on the 10th try a hard reset worked... |
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| 06:29:50 | carbrf | Hey guys, I was wondering if anyone had any idea on how to get an iTrip to work with Rockbox without hardmodding the iTrip. |
| 06:30:16 | carbrf | If theres any addon's or software that will get it to work. |
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| 07:00 |
| 07:07:01 | Soap | have you tried the unsupported build with accessory support? |
| 07:07:12 | Soap | or is this a "top mount" itrip? |
| 07:07:33 | Soap | (oops - (s)he's gone) |
| 07:07:48 | Llorean | If it required a hardware mod it probably was. |
| 07:08:01 | Llorean | Didn't those require some fidgeting to get them to initialize? |
| 07:09:33 | | Quit BHSPitLappy (Remote closed the connection) |
| 07:09:58 | Soap | I'm thinking you had to "jump start" it by powering it on in Apple firmware, then supplying it with battery power (sourced through the hardware mod) while rebooting into rockbox. IIRC. |
| 07:10:36 | Soap | As in Rockbox would provide power, but not the "start" signal. |
| 07:11:07 | Llorean | Yeah, I think it was something like that. |
| 07:13:49 | Llorean | Do you have any accessories for use with the accessory build, or do you provide it without being able to use it yourself? |
| 07:16:28 | Soap | I have not a single one. |
| 07:16:49 | Soap | just trying to get testers and feedback for the patch. |
| 07:17:54 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 07:19:45 | Soap | r/e the Nike Plus module might be more exciting. |
| 07:20:14 | Soap | no Doom if you don't exercise! |
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| 08:14:00 | Blade5245 | k |
| 08:14:35 | Blade5245 | So theres absolutely no hope for 2nd gen ipods -.-? |
| 08:18:19 | amiconn | Please be more precise. 2nd Gen *iPods* are supported |
| 08:18:36 | amiconn | 2nd Gen *Nanos*, however, are not |
| 08:18:45 | Blade5245 | That would be what I meant |
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| 08:18:47 | Blade5245 | thanks |
| 08:19:05 | Blade5245 | sfkgfghfykjglcfhjkh O hate my ipod :[ |
| 08:19:07 | Blade5245 | I* |
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| 08:27:38 | amiconn | And no, it won't magically happen no matter how many people are asking for it. It needs someone with enough knowledge in programming and hardware who actually has a Nano 2nd Gen and really wants rockbox to make it happen. |
| 08:28:15 | amiconn | Given the difficulties, probably more than one person, and it needs good knowledge in cryptography as well, as it seems |
| 08:28:55 | Blade5245 | Yea, I know about it being encrypted :s |
| 08:29:09 | Blade5245 | I just dunno why it hasn't been done yet. |
| 08:29:30 | amiconn | Things don't magically happen by themselves... |
| 08:29:50 | Blade5245 | I know this... |
| 08:30:26 | Blade5245 | You'd think someone would spend the time to do something others havent.. |
| 08:31:09 | Blade5245 | I asked if there was any program for the 2ndgen nano, and you said no, so stop telling me all this tech bs that idc about :\ |
| 08:32:25 | `2 | ROFL AMICONN OWNED BITCH GO SUCK SOME MORE DICK WHORE LOLLLLLL |
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| 12:00 |
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| 12:11:33 | JdGordon | has anyone claimed the md5sum unexitable bug? |
| 12:12:08 | scorche|sh | about 7 hours ago |
| 12:12:51 | JdGordon | ? I mean is anyone going to fix it? or shall i? |
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| 12:15:29 | n1s | JdGordon: there's a patch in the tracker |
| 12:16:39 | n1s | in FS #9209 if you didn't see it |
| 12:16:49 | JdGordon | I did, which is why im asking :) |
| 12:16:52 | JdGordon | fixing now |
| 12:16:58 | n1s | great :) |
| 12:17:19 | JdGordon | oh wait, thats your baby isnt it? |
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| 12:23:58 | * | JdGordon should have actually opened the fs task... there is already a patch to fix it :p |
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| 12:25:15 | | Join nima [0] (n=nima@adsl-75-45-224-77.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net) |
| 12:26:08 | nima | Hello. Can I have write access to the Wiki? I have a theme I want to post |
| 12:27:16 | | Quit Nibbler (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) |
| 12:27:57 | AquilaChill | im sure there some kind of way to upload it or email to an admin or something.. |
| 12:28:29 | pixelma | JdGordon: the md5sum plugin is dionoea's IIRC |
| 12:28:30 | nima | AquilaChill: I've just created an account, but apparently I need to ask an existing Wiki user here for write permission before I can actually do anything |
| 12:28:39 | JdGordon | pixelma: ah ok :) |
| 12:28:44 | JdGordon | nima: whats your wiki name? |
| 12:28:50 | linuxstb | num1_ Done |
| 12:28:56 | nima | JdGordon: NimaKhazaei |
| 12:29:00 | linuxstb | s/num1_/nima/... |
| 12:29:14 | JdGordon | beaten :p |
| 12:29:40 | nima | Thanks, guys :-) |
| 12:29:56 | | Join Specs [0] (n=Specs@24-177-248-185.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com) |
| 12:30:31 | Specs | how would i install rockbox on the newer ipod nano |
| 12:30:38 | nima | Specs: They aren't supported, I think |
| 12:30:43 | Specs | =| |
| 12:31:02 | Specs | oh well |
| 12:31:03 | linuxstb | Specs: You can't - Rockbox only works on the devices listed at the top of http://www.rockbox.org |
| 12:31:04 | | Join culture [0] (n=none@cpc1-bele3-0-0-cust658.belf.cable.ntl.com) |
| 12:31:47 | Specs | is a newer ipod nano version is development |
| 12:33:23 | linuxstb | No |
| 12:33:58 | Specs | k |
| 12:34:00 | | Part Specs ("Leaving.") |
| 12:35:37 | | Quit pixelma (" bbs") |
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| 13:00 |
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| 13:11:26 | mcuelenaere | has anyone seen krz lately? he said he was going to commit FS #9277 some days ago, but nothing happened yet.. |
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| 13:27:26 | linuxstb | rasher: ping... |
| 13:27:56 | * | amiconn now has a mirrored rockbox on his Photo |
| 13:29:12 | gevaerts | commit! |
| 13:30:00 | * | amiconn is testing various lcd controller settings in order to be able to implement optimisations and missing things |
| 13:30:10 | | Join petur [50] (n=petur@rockbox/developer/petur) |
| 13:30:31 | amiconn | E.g. display flip (for which I need to find the vertical mirroring bit as well), and fast yuv blitting |
| 13:31:12 | amiconn | Later I'll need several testers: iPod Color (lcd type 1), iPod Nano and H10 big |
| 13:31:33 | | Join Lynx_ [0] (n=lynx@tina-10-4.genetik.uni-koeln.de) |
| 13:33:08 | rasher | linuxstb: ? |
| 13:34:55 | linuxstb | rasher: I've added an option to genlang to sort a lang file into the english order - do you think that's a useful thing to commit ? |
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| 13:35:40 | * | AquilaChill_ has a 1g nano |
| 13:35:45 | amiconn | :) Found the vertical mirroring bit as well (the first one I tried because of an educated guess) |
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| 13:36:29 | Lear | linuxstb: I think it'd be useful... |
| 13:37:06 | rasher | linuxstb: Sounds good. I'm planning to add it to the tool I'm writing for my xml-langfile change. Maybe you should sort all languages that don't have patches pending? |
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| 13:40:14 | amiconn | Hmm. While display flip isn't a new feature as such, it'd mean changing the manual for those targets which don't have it now |
| 13:41:15 | linuxstb | I wouldn't object. |
| 13:41:38 | linuxstb | It's not a feature that's new to Rockbox, just to some targets... |
| 13:42:02 | rasher | I guess people have a different opinion on "freeze" than what I have. In my mind, it's "don't commit anything that runs the risk of adding bugs - only commit fixes to actual bugs" |
| 13:47:51 | linuxstb | (dragging in people from -community) - I've also noticed that Gnome, KDE and Apple UI guidelines all specify Title Case for menu entries etc, and Sentence case for dialogs. Which I think is what the original intention for Rockbox was. |
| 13:49:14 | rasher | Personally I think title case should be wiped off the face of the earth, but I'll leave that decision to native (UK) English speakers |
| 13:49:46 | linuxstb | What about other languages? Is anyone arguing for title case anywhere? |
| 13:50:11 | Llorean | I'm in favour of title case for menu entries in English. |
| 13:50:16 | Llorean | I can't speak for any other language. |
| 13:50:17 | n1s | linuxstb: I'm not sure if it's the case but some strings may be used both in menus and splashes/dialogs |
| 13:50:35 | linuxstb | n1s: That's what I was about to tell Llorean... |
| 13:50:44 | n1s | linuxstb: I have never seen it used in Swedish and think it would be very strange... |
| 13:51:30 | BigBambi | Non-title case here |
| 13:51:33 | BigBambi | :) |
| 13:51:42 | * | BigBambi sees a UK/US divide |
| 13:51:49 | rasher | Llorean: Remember Rockbox is UK English |
| 13:52:11 | Llorean | rasher: I don't know if it's a UK vs US English thing though. |
| 13:52:16 | Llorean | It may be. |
| 13:52:19 | * | gevaerts redefines title case as normal case, and then votes for title case |
| 13:52:31 | Llorean | Is it "Save As" or "Save as" in UK apps? |
| 13:52:37 | n1s | Llorean: if you have time could you check on your nano if FS #7527 is fixed? |
| 13:52:44 | BigBambi | UK apps are few and far between |
| 13:52:53 | BigBambi | Generally we have to put up with american spelling |
| 13:53:52 | | Join pixelma [0] (n=Marianne@rockbox/staff/pixelma) |
| 13:53:52 | BigBambi | So in summary, I don't know :) |
| 13:54:05 | Llorean | I personally think normal case looks very odd in menus in software. |
| 13:54:12 | Llorean | Since, to me at least, they *are* titles. |
| 13:54:28 | linuxstb | Yes, but titles don't imply "title case". |
| 13:54:30 | rasher | Using Title Case in the first place for titles, isn't universal |
| 13:54:43 | Llorean | But it does seem pretty common in software menus. |
| 13:54:55 | Llorean | At least, in terms of software I've used. |
| 13:55:06 | gevaerts | Lots of software is buggy |
| 13:55:09 | rasher | Llorean: "Rockbox doesn't try to emulate other ..." |
| 13:55:36 | rasher | I wonder if Danish has any title case left... Time to craft a regex and have a look |
| 13:55:40 | Llorean | rasher: Yeah but that doesn't mean you break away from common ways of doing things juts for the sake of breaking away. |
| 13:55:50 | gevaerts | Yes, but is it common? |
| 13:56:05 | | Quit einhirn (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 13:56:31 | rasher | Mozilla apps do it, according to linuxstb KDE, GNOME and Apple's HIG specify it. BUT, those are based in US English |
| 13:56:44 | rasher | So it's anyone's guess, I suppose |
| 13:56:50 | Llorean | But since some strings would need to be duplicated to properly split title and non-title case to unique uses, it may be best to side with consistency and drop title case. |
| 13:59:21 | BigBambi | To be honest, I'm not going to have a fit either way, but personally I would 'vote' for non :) |
| 14:00 |
| 14:01:15 | * | JdGordon votes for whatever is the least amount of work |
| 14:01:29 | JdGordon | or alternativly.. If I dont have to do any anyway, then the most amount of work :D |
| 14:02:21 | Lear | n1s: I've seen title case in some Swedish translations. Looks weird indeed. |
| 14:02:47 | nima | Multiple cases suck anyway. It's a terrible feature of English |
| 14:03:33 | BigBambi | I would argue it isn't a feature of English |
| 14:04:39 | nima | BigBambi: Do all languages which use the Latin alphabet use both upper and lower case? |
| 14:04:41 | | Part bobjim |
| 14:04:58 | rasher | nima: I don't know of any that don't. |
| 14:05:02 | BigBambi | nima: This probably belongs in #rockbox-community |
| 14:05:22 | BigBambi | But, if you mean never use capitals that would be horrendous |
| 14:05:34 | linuxstb | Like the Rockbox website menu? ;) |
| 14:06:06 | BigBambi | :P - in general writing. Not starting sentences with a capital - urgh |
| 14:06:21 | linuxstb | What about non-English PC apps? Do they use also use title case? |
| 14:06:34 | nima | BigBambi: It probably doens't belong anywhere :-PÂ I think it'd be better to delimit sentences in a way that doesn't double the number of characters people would have to learn |
| 14:06:43 | rasher | linuxstb: Nope, Danish apps don't use title casing |
| 14:06:55 | linuxstb | rasher: That's reassuring :) |
| 14:07:14 | * | linuxstb concludes this is a US-GB thing... |
| 14:11:28 | * | bertrik has a slight preference for title cas |
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| 14:37:22 | rasher | linuxstb: I have a fixlang (php) script now that can do any combination of: sorting, copying voice strings, fixing empty scripts |
| 14:37:36 | rasher | http://rasher.dk/rockbox/translate/fixlang.php?lang=catala&cmd=voice,empty,sort |
| 14:37:41 | | Join kugel [0] (n=chatzill@unaffiliated/kugel) |
| 14:38:09 | linuxstb | rasher: That gives me an error... |
| 14:38:14 | kugel | Slasheri: ping |
| 14:38:34 | rasher | linuxstb: that would be my fault.. |
| 14:39:19 | JdGordon | kugel: hey, I changed my mind about passing a parent viewport into the pitch screen :p |
| 14:39:36 | kugel | JdGordon: Hm why? |
| 14:39:55 | JdGordon | because nothing will do that for a while so the delta wont look so bad |
| 14:40:02 | JdGordon | assuming it changes it at all... |
| 14:40:29 | | Part WalkGood |
| 14:40:47 | kugel | JdGordon: Well, my custom list vp patch does it :P |
| 14:40:48 | rasher | linuxstb: Should work now (I was not generating unique filenames, which hilariously broke if multiple people clicked at roughly the same time) |
| 14:41:36 | kugel | JdGordon: So, you want me to remove the parent feature? |
| 14:41:45 | JdGordon | arr... i dunno :p |
| 14:42:02 | kugel | lol |
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| 14:44:33 | JdGordon | ok, I'm having a look at it now... |
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| 14:48:25 | JdGordon | kugel: the statusbar is always drawn now? |
| 14:49:03 | kugel | JdGordon: No, it uses gui_syncstatusbar_draw |
| 14:49:40 | JdGordon | I can see that... its not being conditionally drawn if it fits? |
| 14:50:09 | kugel | JdGordon: this method only draws the statusbar if the setting is enabled, and it draws it on every screen |
| 14:50:53 | JdGordon | yes... but if its enabled then its always drawn.... thats 8 pixels which could be used elsewhere if its needed.... |
| 14:52:36 | kugel | well, I think the user actually wants the statusbar to be drawn if he enabled it |
| 14:53:58 | JdGordon | not if there isnt enough room for it |
| 14:54:55 | kugel | Try it on your h300 and the remote (if you own one) |
| 14:55:41 | JdGordon | im using the sim |
| 14:55:49 | JdGordon | it works fine on the default font, but larger? |
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| 14:57:05 | kugel | well, i think my optimizations for small screens are good. I rather remove some text than the statusbar |
| 14:59:32 | kugel | JdGordon: I think it's still fine with 9+18x18b.fnt |
| 15:00 |
| 15:01:34 | JdGordon | try it with ter-20 |
| 15:01:37 | JdGordon | it totallyt dies :p |
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| 15:03:58 | JdGordon | kugel: its almost ok actually... just remove the +-2% labels and it should work |
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| 15:06:38 | kugel | JdGordon: just modify the check "if (parent->width >= 65) " so that it depends more on the font size |
| 15:07:40 | JdGordon | 1) thats not very useful... at least give a line number... 2) no, the icons should stay, the labels should go |
| 15:08:19 | | Quit Nibbler (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) |
| 15:08:27 | JdGordon | ah, I see what your talking about |
| 15:08:51 | kugel | the icons are always drawn |
| 15:09:07 | kugel | the text not |
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| 15:09:33 | kugel | line 150 |
| 15:11:56 | | Quit thomas_s1h (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 15:13:40 | kugel | JdGordon: I just see, line 153 should go before the if and the else be removed then |
| 15:14:34 | | Quit scottie ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") |
| 15:14:36 | * | kugel gtg |
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| 15:19:37 | scottie | I would like to install RockBox on my Sansa e200. I am confused about MSC/MTP/UMS. |
| 15:19:52 | scottie | The manual says to run in MSC mode ... |
| 15:20:09 | scottie | I'm only able to USB mount my player as MTP ... |
| 15:20:27 | scottie | & the sansapatcher is telling me to use UMS mode! |
| 15:20:29 | domonoky | MSC = UMS = you see it as drive letter... MTP is the bad thing.. :-) |
| 15:20:36 | JdGordon | in the e200 settings you need to change it to connect with MSC |
| 15:21:39 | scottie | ok, i'll try MSC mode (don't have cable handy at the moment). From memory, I could only mount my player in MTP mode. Is that unusual? |
| 15:22:14 | advcomp2019 | MSC should mount because it is like a flash drive |
| 15:22:22 | JdGordon | its only unusual if youve told the e200 to use MSC |
| 15:23:09 | scottie | :confused: |
| 15:23:28 | scottie | I changed the setting to MTP mode in the player, then I was able to successfully mount it under Linux. |
| 15:24:16 | bertrik | yes that is unusual, I think you remember incorrectly, mounting is typically associated with MSC mode, not with MTP |
| 15:24:46 | JdGordon | it needs to be set to MSC on the player |
| 15:24:48 | scottie | I've got my player here, in settings it's set to MTP ... |
| 15:25:06 | scottie | I've always used this mode. |
| 15:25:18 | JdGordon | then thats why its not working |
| 15:25:30 | scottie | why what's not working? |
| 15:25:38 | JdGordon | [23:20:27] <scottie> & the sansapatcher is telling me to use UMS mode! |
| 15:26:16 | scottie | I just ran sansapatcher without my player mounted (I don't have my cable handy) |
| 15:27:47 | scottie | Anyway, I don't want to borrow trouble so I'll try MSC mode next time. |
| 15:27:48 | | Quit spiorf (Remote closed the connection) |
| 15:28:31 | scottie | What does "Never extract files to your player while it is in recovery mode." mean? (from manual) |
| 15:31:17 | | Quit nplus (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
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| 15:32:48 | scottie | thx 4 hlp |
| 15:32:55 | | Quit scottie ("CGI:IRC") |
| 15:32:59 | JdGordon | BigBambi: you use bookmarks do you? |
| 15:33:10 | BigBambi | I do |
| 15:33:35 | JdGordon | wanna comment on how im naming bookmarks which arnt easily named? |
| 15:34:28 | BigBambi | I'll think about it - generally I use them on audiobooks or albums, so it is just a directory and therefore fairly easy |
| 15:35:02 | BigBambi | I guess the problem is with ad hoc playlists with no physical playlist |
| 15:35:07 | JdGordon | I guess thats how most people use them? |
| 15:35:14 | JdGordon | and yes, bingo |
| 15:36:53 | BigBambi | I guess there are a couple of options - a dedicated store (directory or file), or stick them either with e.g. the first item in a playlist |
| 15:37:31 | JdGordon | that second option doesnt sound very usable |
| 15:37:40 | BigBambi | No, I agree |
| 15:38:05 | BigBambi | I would like to keep bookmarks as they are now where possible - i.e. not have a dedicated store for everything, but then it isn't too nice to separate them |
| 15:39:05 | JdGordon | there is one downside to the change, if you run a .bmark it automatically stops playback, but if you cancel it resumes again so minor annoyance, but probably not a big deal |
| 15:39:22 | BigBambi | I don't like storing bookmarks in playlist files - apart from anything it makes synching annoying |
| 15:39:38 | BigBambi | JdGordon: I don't think that is a major problem |
| 15:40:54 | BigBambi | For inram playlists (and I guess database playlists too), a dedicated store is the way to go? |
| 15:41:18 | JdGordon | yeah |
| 15:41:24 | JdGordon | not really any other option |
| 15:41:31 | BigBambi | I can't think of one |
| 15:41:32 | JdGordon | DB could change thuogh |
| 15:41:34 | n1s | hmm, the warning about recovery mode in the sansa manual install chapter is pretty weird and probably totally confusing if you don't know what it is... |
| 15:49:39 | | Quit mazling ("Inde da'covale misain ye; Caballien misain ye!") |
| 15:51:16 | rasher | Bagder_: What's the reasoning behind the "deprecated" keyword for strings? Surely setting it to "" should be enough? |
| 15:52:42 | | Join toffe82 [0] (n=chatzill@71.142.13.122) |
| 15:54:46 | linuxstb | rasher: Do you know what "user:" is for? It seems to always be blank... |
| 15:55:17 | rasher | linuxstb: It's for future use in seperating stuff for plugins/core |
| 15:55:40 | linuxstb | Ah, so it should always be there? There's a few places it's missing in english.lang |
| 15:56:34 | rasher | Yeah, I noticed. It probably should, yes |
| 15:56:40 | rasher | But for now, it doesn't matter of course |
| 15:58:21 | | Quit Lynx_ (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- 100,000+ downloads can't be wrong") |
| 15:59:16 | rasher | linuxstb: you're missing some credit in catala.lang |
| 16:00 |
| 16:00:01 | linuxstb | True, I'll add myself on my next commit... |
| 16:00:30 | linuxstb | I'm now using diff to see the differences between the english.lang and catala.lang - any reason why I shouldn't add the missing user: lines to english.lang? |
| 16:01:12 | rasher | not really - I can do it now.. I've got a fix commit coming up (turns out "deprecated" is a keyword for strings - my tool didn't know that) |
| 16:01:57 | linuxstb | I've done it already... |
| 16:05:22 | linuxstb | Should I commit, or let you do it? |
| 16:05:38 | rasher | Ah, thought you'd committed already - go ahead |
| 16:06:49 | linuxstb | OK, done. |
| 16:10:28 | | Join bluebrother [0] (n=dom@rockbox/staff/bluebrother) |
| 16:10:40 | bertrik | do the powermanagement thread and the GUI thread run on different CPUs or something? |
| 16:12:15 | JdGordon | no... |
| 16:12:20 | bertrik | if I monitor the current charge status from the View I/O ports debug menu, everything seems to work fine, but when I monitor it from the system/rockbox info menu, my state machine gets in a confused state |
| 16:12:51 | * | gevaerts would never program a confused state in a state machine |
| 16:13:15 | JdGordon | isnt that the usual "error" state? |
| 16:13:26 | | Join phinze [0] (n=phinze@216.137.71.107) |
| 16:13:50 | rasher | linuxstb: I'm not sure genlang preserves the order of strings when updating |
| 16:14:02 | rasher | So languages will over time get out of order |
| 16:14:23 | rasher | Or maybe it's my tool that does it |
| 16:15:52 | linuxstb | rasher: Yes, I was wondering how this happens... |
| 16:17:43 | linuxstb | Looking at genlang, it at least adds all new phrases in a random order - not the english order. |
| 16:18:19 | linuxstb | (and they're all added to the end) |
| 16:19:06 | rasher | Yup, just confirmed it by removing a bunch of phrases from catala, running -u and comparing the order |
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| 16:20:32 | rasher | I'm still not convinced it's much of a problem, really |
| 16:20:47 | linuxstb | Not really, but it's nice to be able to do a diff with english.lang |
| 16:21:06 | JdGordon | anyone know where idle poweroff is handled?> |
| 16:21:53 | * | linuxstb makes a random guess - button driver? |
| 16:22:36 | kugel | JdGordon: anything to be done/left for pitchscreen? |
| 16:23:42 | bertrik | in handle_auto_poweroff in powermgmt.c it seems |
| 16:24:09 | JdGordon | kugel: just fix it so it handles narrow screens better |
| 16:24:18 | rasher | diff -w −−side-by-side −−left-column english.lang catala.lang is rather interesting, I'll admit |
| 16:27:27 | kugel | JdGordon: well, just to remind you, it's even worse without my patch. I think the special case with such a large font can be counted as "user's fault" ;) |
| 16:28:33 | bertrik | my problem can perhaps be explained by the behaviour of pp_i2c_send, I think if call it twice in a row, the second call may fail because the first is still busy |
| 16:29:23 | JdGordon | kugel: I know... but its very possible to have fonts/screen combos that would break it on the archos and remotes |
| 16:29:36 | JdGordon | anyone got 3g ipod? |
| 16:29:40 | JdGordon | got a * |
| 16:31:09 | kugel | JdGordon: how about font size < LCD_HEIGHT / 4 ? |
| 16:31:27 | kugel | and, how about just using sysfont in such a case? |
| 16:31:40 | JdGordon | the problem is the width not the height.... |
| 16:33:06 | rasher | kugel: Defaulting to sysfont doesn't work for non-latin scripts... |
| 16:33:54 | kugel | rasher: rec screen also falls back to sysfont on small screens |
| 16:34:21 | JdGordon | we are trying to minimise this |
| 16:34:29 | rasher | Doesn't mean it works any better |
| 16:35:06 | kugel | so, no sysfont, ok |
| 16:35:35 | | Join Lambdugh [0] (n=Lambda@12-202-140-90.client.mchsi.com) |
| 16:36:15 | rasher | If at all possible. I'd say cutting a bit of text off is better than using sysfont |
| 16:36:26 | JdGordon | amiconn: you round? |
| 16:39:36 | | Quit Lambduh (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) |
| 16:42:59 | | Quit kugel ("ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.1/2008072820]") |
| 16:44:22 | bertrik | my problem must be multiple threads trying to manipulate the charging state machine, I tried using the charger_inserted or charger_status functions to keep the state machine alive, but those functions are called from several different contexts it seems |
| 16:46:54 | bertrik | charger_status -> charging_state |
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| 16:58:46 | amiconn | JdGordon: yes? |
| 16:59:45 | JdGordon | are you the person to talk to about ipod 3g usb detection? |
| 17:00 |
| 17:00:29 | amiconn | No, since I have no G3 |
| 17:01:11 | JdGordon | ok |
| 17:01:24 | Llorean | I don't think we have someone with a G3, do we? |
| 17:01:41 | amiconn | DerPapst and jhMikeS both have a G3 |
| 17:02:14 | amiconn | Unfortunately they haven't been around lately |
| 17:05:19 | | Nick JdGordon is now known as JdGordon|zzz (n=jonno@rockbox/developer/JdGordon) |
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| 17:29:04 | n1s | Llorean: could you test something on ipod nano? |
| 17:29:47 | | Join mf0102 [0] (n=michi@85.127.38.136) |
| 17:30:41 | Llorean | n1s: I'm afraid I have no clue where my Nano is at the moment. I tried to find it to check on that task earlier but it's not where I thought I was keeping it. |
| 17:31:41 | n1s | ah, ok, I'm just annoyed by that task for some reason (and it's probably already fixed...) |
| 17:31:49 | n1s | anyone else with a nano around? |
| 17:37:43 | n1s | hmm, weird. When I'm logged into the tracker all places displaying date/time instead display my nick... |
| 17:38:08 | rasher | n1s: sounds like you've accidently edited the "display time" format |
| 17:39:05 | | Quit avis (Remote closed the connection) |
| 17:39:30 | n1s | ah, yes that was it, odd |
| 17:43:44 | Soap | n1s, I'll check FS$7527 in a few hours - my nano is asking for an iTunes restore - going to the office to do so. |
| 17:44:10 | n1s | Soap: great :) |
| 17:45:15 | Soap | and amiconn - when I get back I'll be able to test any LCD controller changes you have ready. |
| 17:50:48 | | Quit nplus (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
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| 17:56:38 | n1s | linuxstb: what do you think about releasing new ipod bootloaders for the release (we have FS #8901 marked as "Due in version 3.0" and it is apparently already fixed in svn) |
| 17:57:24 | bluebrother | getting out released iriver bootloaders would also be nice, but I doubt the remaining issues will be fixed in time |
| 17:58:02 | n1s | yes, iiuc there's some outstanding issue blocking that but not for the ipods afaik |
| 17:58:39 | | Join phinze [0] (n=phinze@216.137.71.107) |
| 17:58:42 | n1s | and the ipod mini cf mod seems fairly common so supporting it would be good :) |
| 17:59:00 | bluebrother | true. I'll do that mod myself eventually ... |
| 17:59:08 | bluebrother | or at least I want to do ;-) |
| 18:00 |
| 18:00:33 | linuxstb | n1s: Yes, it would make sense. New sansapatcher/ipodpatcher releases are also long overdue... |
| 18:01:31 | linuxstb | Is there a "to-do" list for 3.0 anywhere? |
| 18:02:50 | n1s | there's the ReleaseTodo in the wiki |
| 18:03:13 | * | linuxstb wonders why not ToDo... |
| 18:03:52 | linuxstb | So there are no "release-critical" bugs? |
| 18:07:55 | n1s | don't think so |
| 18:11:21 | | Quit nplus (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 18:11:24 | Soap | I've seen no discussion on enabling the PP USB stack on non-Sansas. Has this been dismissed? Discussed? |
| 18:11:36 | Llorean | linuxstb: At devcon we decided a couple playback bugs were the only ones we considered critical enough to stop a release, and NicoP managed to fix them up miraculously quickly. |
| 18:11:40 | | Join nplus [0] (n=nplus@141.25.globcom.net) |
| 18:12:34 | Llorean | Soap: I think the feeling is that it's still not predictable enough in terms of whether or not you'll get a good connection. |
| 18:12:50 | Llorean | linuxstb: I don't think any new bugs have popped up with that level of critical-ness. |
| 18:13:00 | bluebrother | Llorean: he only held the fixes back before devcon to fix them miraculously quick ;-) |
| 18:13:46 | Soap | The "there is a hub which degrades signal quality to the point of connection resets" issue? Or are there others? |
| 18:14:36 | Llorean | Soap: I think that may be it. I'm really not certain. |
| 18:15:18 | Llorean | Is Rockbox at least rebooting consistently on USB connect these days? |
| 18:15:42 | amiconn | no |
| 18:15:48 | bluebrother | linuxstb: what do you think about "hiding" ipodpatcher / sansapatcher a bit? There's always those guys popping up at the forums using some random 3rd party installation instructions |
| 18:16:24 | bluebrother | and simply moving the tools on the server would break all those tutorials, with the users hopefully using the official instructions instead |
| 18:16:47 | Llorean | Personally, I'd rather have Rockbox USB enabled and not always connect then, if reboot-on-USB isn't consistent anyway. |
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| 18:21:08 | Llorean | linuxstb: There's also nearly 30 bugs in the tracker marked "Due in 3.0" but these are basically anything any dev felt would be nice to see fixed for 3.0 if at all possible. |
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| 18:25:26 | saratoga | JdGordon|zzz: (for the logs) I've got a mostly working Ipod 3G |
| 18:25:43 | linuxstb | bluebrother: Is that a real problem? I don't notice those posts very often, and the answer is simply to point them to the manual... I would expect some of them mirror ipodpatcher anyway. |
| 18:26:10 | | Join jhulst [0] (n=jhulst@unaffiliated/jhulst) |
| 18:26:28 | bluebrother | well, it was just an idea to invalidate those tutorials. Might be not worth the work, though. |
| 18:26:47 | linuxstb | It will also invalidate genuine tutorials - e.g. for IPL. |
| 18:27:30 | bluebrother | good point. But the old download could simply redirect to a website telling the users to check if they really need ipodpatcher. |
| 18:27:50 | linuxstb | I guess Bagder could tell us if there are many downloads of ipodpatcher via other sites though... |
| 18:27:54 | bluebrother | but that sounds too much hassle for too little gain |
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| 18:31:17 | tge101 | can someone help me out with my 60gb ipod photo, all of a sudden it won't connect to my computer |
| 18:31:59 | linuxstb | Simpliest way is to start the Apple firmware first, then attach to usb. |
| 18:32:15 | linuxstb | Or force it into disk mode (hold PLAY+SELECT as it is starting) |
| 18:33:04 | tge101 | it just shows an apple support website |
| 18:33:45 | linuxstb | So you can't start either Rockbox or the Apple firmware? |
| 18:34:44 | tge101 | it started to when i plugged it in, then the autoplay windows thing went for a second, now just this |
| 18:34:55 | tge101 | i dont remember how to get the apple firmware up |
| 18:36:15 | linuxstb | I don't understand what you just said... When you start your ipod normally (nothing plugged in, no buttons held), what happens? |
| 18:36:57 | tge101 | the apple startup logo comes up, then it shows an ipod with frowny face and an apple support website |
| 18:37:52 | linuxstb | Try pressing MENU+SELECT to reset, then _immediately_ press and hold SELECT+PLAY |
| 18:38:23 | tge101 | i got the apple firmware up now |
| 18:38:37 | tge101 | its just charging |
| 18:38:59 | tge101 | should i do what you just said instead? |
| 18:39:21 | linuxstb | It's hard to know how to help if you're doing random things... |
| 18:39:27 | | Quit tvelocity_ (Remote closed the connection) |
| 18:39:36 | tge101 | its showing on my computer now too, am i missing a file or should i just put the newest release of rockbox on |
| 18:39:53 | tge101 | ok, i started the apple firmware like you told me to before |
| 18:40:07 | | Quit tvelocity (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 18:40:30 | tge101 | thats the farthest ive gotten it to go so far, its showing in my computer now, but i cant get rockbox to go |
| 18:41:22 | bluebrother | what exactly does "can't get to go" mean? |
| 18:41:53 | linuxstb | There are two different things - the main Apple firmware (which is what you use to play music) and the "emergency disk mode", which is what you get if you hold SELECT+PLAY when booting. What are you in? |
| 18:42:35 | tge101 | the apple firmware (i started it up and put the Hold on), i couldnt get the SELECT+PLAY to work |
| 18:42:36 | linuxstb | On the Photo it's easy to tell them apart - the emergency disk mode is black and white |
| 18:43:16 | bluebrother | select + play only works during startup, i.e. immediately after you reset the ipod |
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| 18:44:15 | tge101 | ive been in the emergency mode, i just cant get it to work |
| 18:44:38 | bluebrother | can't get what to work? Emergency disc mode? Rockbox? |
| 18:44:50 | tge101 | neither work |
| 18:45:09 | bluebrother | emergency disc mode does work. It's "hard wired" in the ipod. |
| 18:45:22 | tge101 | well im trying |
| 18:45:27 | bluebrother | but what's the exact problem with getting Rockbox running? |
| 18:46:23 | tge101 | alright, now im in disk mode |
| 18:46:31 | tge101 | thats what im trying to figure out |
| 18:46:56 | bluebrother | how have you installed Rockbox? What happenes when you reboot the Ipod? |
| 18:47:25 | tge101 | now rockbox is running, its showing all my albums/artists, but none of my songs |
| 18:47:39 | * | bluebrother is close to giving up |
| 18:48:15 | bluebrother | check the "show filetypes" setting, and make sure the database is initialized if you've put your music on the Ipod using Itunes. |
| 18:48:39 | tge101 | i put rockbox on a long time ago so i wouldnt have to use itunes |
| 18:49:12 | tge101 | ive been using it exclusively for over a year, ive never had this problem, thats why im hoping someone has a solution |
| 18:50:02 | tge101 | now, while its connected, its showing that the songs are all still on there, just on the ipod itself, while browsing, they dont show up |
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| 18:55:50 | tge101 | k |
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| 20:40:07 | Tatsh | for the ipod nano, how do you shut it off manually? |
| 20:43:22 | BigBambi | The manual is good for telling you what buttons do what, but I believe it is long hold of play |
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| 20:50:11 | ejsp | Q: ZVM work any? |
| 20:51:08 | Tatsh | thanks BigBambi |
| 20:51:15 | Tatsh | i haven't used rockbox in a while, just got this ipod yesterday |
| 20:51:26 | Tatsh | made sure it was first gen and paid $70 for it |
| 20:52:25 | BigBambi | ejsp: Do you mean does the ZVM work? |
| 20:52:42 | Tatsh | how come there's no tetris for the ipod nano? :( |
| 20:52:45 | Tatsh | i had it on my mini |
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| 20:53:11 | BigBambi | Tatsh: I'm pretty sure there is |
| 20:53:18 | BigBambi | Rockblox isn't there? |
| 20:53:25 | ejsp | sorry: unsupported build :) |
| 20:53:26 | Tatsh | oh yeah that's what it's called |
| 20:53:27 | Tatsh | let me check |
| 20:53:33 | | Part ejsp ("Leaving") |
| 20:53:59 | Tatsh | i nearly got hit by a car becuase of rockblox |
| 20:54:28 | Tatsh | i was walking to class and didn't look to cross the road meanwhile i was playing rockblox |
| 20:55:10 | BigBambi | Tatsh: In that case I'd suggest a) More care and b) staying on topic :P |
| 20:55:21 | Tatsh | it's kind of on-topic :P |
| 20:55:31 | BigBambi | Not really |
| 20:55:46 | BigBambi | Anyway, I'm glad you survived :) |
| 20:56:08 | Tatsh | scary moment, i learned from it |
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| 21:01:16 | SoapWork | n1s: FS #7527 does not appear to be an existing bug on my iPod Nano with SVN 18300 |
| 21:02:06 | n1s | SoapWork: thanks for testing, will you close or should I? |
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| 21:07:09 | | Nick num1_ is now known as num1 (n=brian@unaffiliated/num1) |
| 21:08:16 | SoapWork | n1s: I do not believe I have the power to close. |
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| 21:23:32 | fml | Can somebody please tell me where the backlight on key press is handled? What file should I look at? |
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| 21:51:17 | linuxstb | fml: firmware/drivers/button.c |
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| 22:02:07 | saratoga | I'm curious what people think about lowering the core clock on the Sansas to 24MHz |
| 22:02:29 | saratoga | they have an extremely fast display and no hard disk, so theres no noticable difference in UI performance or buffering time like on the other PP targets |
| 22:03:00 | saratoga | I tested an MPC album which runs unboosted and the GUI seemed normal, and bubbles remained playable while listening to music |
| 22:03:09 | fml | linuxstb: thanks! I still want to try to implement the flexible way of turning the BL on or not depending on the key pressed. |
| 22:03:20 | saratoga | this would increase battery life for FLAC, MPC, Ogg and Vorbis users |
| 22:03:32 | saratoga | sorry "Ogg and WMA users" |
| 22:06:10 | gevaerts | saratoga: I've never tested this, so I have no opinion on the technical side, but I wouldn't do this before 3.0 |
| 22:07:10 | * | gevaerts is on the cautious side of the freeze debate |
| 22:09:28 | saratoga | gevaerts: yes I won't be doing that soon |
| 22:10:06 | saratoga | i'd really like to see MP3 bettery optimized before doing it, since thats probably what most people use |
| 22:11:44 | | Quit Schmogel (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 22:12:11 | gevaerts | Once mp3 can run at 24MHz, I think there's no discussion |
| 22:17:15 | | Quit Thundercloud (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 22:17:42 | saratoga | thats going to take some real work |
| 22:17:52 | saratoga | mp3 is slooooow on arm |
| 22:18:21 | * | gevaerts knows nothing about codecs, so he can be optimistic |
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| 22:28:26 | bluebrother | domonoky: have you ever stumbled across http://doc.trolltech.com/qq/qq13-apis.html ? Has been posted to qt-interest a few days ago and is quite an interesting read |
| 22:29:02 | domonoky | no. will read it now :-) |
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| 22:34:16 | bertrik | saratoga, I won't mind testing out 24 MHz |
| 22:34:53 | crwl | me neither |
| 22:34:58 | bertrik | is there a big difference in current consumption between 30 MHz and 80 MHz anyway? |
| 22:34:59 | | Join dude187 [0] (n=chris@cpe-75-187-51-53.columbus.res.rr.com) |
| 22:36:34 | * | bertrik should be able to measure that himself now |
| 22:36:54 | saratoga | bertrik: 1.33mW/MHz in my testing |
| 22:37:44 | saratoga | or rather thats what P_80-P_30/(80-30) gives me |
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| 22:38:32 | saratoga | i'm actually not 100% sure if this is right, but I just changed the CPUFREQ_NORMAL define in system-target.h |
| 22:38:48 | saratoga | its what Buschel seems to do in his Filespray posts so I assume it works |
| 22:39:18 | | Join amiconn [50] (n=jens@rockbox/developer/amiconn) |
| 22:42:25 | amiconn | saratoga: Last time I tried, both ogg and wma needed a good deal of boosting on PP. So lowering the core clock won't help runtime for these formats, and neither for mp3 |
| 22:43:09 | | Quit Horscht ("I am root. If you see me laughing, you better have a backup") |
| 22:43:27 | amiconn | It would only increase jerkiness. Even though UI *seems* to be fast at 24MHz, the differences between normal and boosted would become more visible |
| 22:44:03 | bertrik | the software puts the CPU in sleep mode when possible, right? |
| 22:44:33 | amiconn | Try playing music that needs some boosting, then run oscilloscope and see what I mean. You'll probably see similar effects in jewels animations, choper... |
| 22:44:48 | amiconn | bertrik: Yes, but that's the cpu core *only* |
| 22:44:48 | | Quit mf0102 ("Ex-Chat") |
| 22:45:11 | amiconn | The other core will continue running, as will all the peripheral devices (lcd bridge, ata controller, ...) |
| 22:45:51 | bertrik | but they are not affected by the boost |
| 22:46:04 | bertrik | I guess, or are they? |
| 22:46:07 | amiconn | They are (well, most of them) |
| 22:46:23 | amiconn | lcd bridge runs from core clock, as does the ata bridge |
| 22:46:33 | bertrik | ugh |
| 22:47:07 | amiconn | The lcd bridge can be run from 24MHz, but for some reason this doesn't work on all targets using it (or maybe we just don't know which other bits we should adjust) |
| 22:47:20 | amiconn | And it's not desirable anyway, for speed reasons |
| 22:48:12 | gevaerts | Actually, now that you mention it... Does file copying inside rockbox boost the CPU? |
| 22:48:35 | bertrik | gevaerts is thinking about the sd corruption problem because cpu is boosted when usb is active? |
| 22:48:43 | gevaerts | indeed |
| 22:49:07 | amiconn | I don't know |
| 22:49:19 | | Join jhulst [0] (n=jhulst@unaffiliated/jhulst) |
| 22:49:52 | bertrik | we could simply boost the cpu in the debug menu for a sd transfer test |
| 22:50:01 | amiconn | And btw, I would expect glitches in certain PP peripheral devices when switching clock while transferring data, not when running continuously (whether boosted or unboosted) |
| 22:51:03 | gevaerts | bertrik: can you still reproduce the corruption? |
| 22:51:05 | amiconn | That's the reason why the greylib on PP needs to boost the CPU - the mono bridge doesn't like to be active when a clock switch occurs. And boosting is the only reliable way to prevent clock changes without hampering performance |
| 22:51:20 | bertrik | gevaerts, sorry, never even tried to test it |
| 22:51:34 | amiconn | For normal lcd updates this isn't an issue, but the greylib lcd updates happen from within an isr |
| 22:52:03 | gevaerts | I'll post a comment on the tracker asking for tests |
| 22:53:22 | | Join Horscht [0] (n=Horscht@xbmc/user/horscht) |
| 22:53:50 | bertrik | it's really a pity that the processor clock and peripheral clocks are so tightly coupled |
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| 23:00 |
| 23:05:37 | | Quit domonoky (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 23:13:17 | saratoga | i wonder if the large difference in power consumption between the Apple and Sandisk firmwares is just figuring out ways to work around the PP clock restrictions |
| 23:13:27 | saratoga | well that and codec optimization |
| 23:14:49 | linuxstb | What iis the difference? |
| 23:15:46 | saratoga | linuxstb: between the firmwares? |
| 23:16:08 | linuxstb | "the large difference in power consumption" |
| 23:16:41 | * | amiconn wonders how to even measure the difference between Apple and Sandisk OF |
| 23:17:57 | bluebrother | comparing apples with disks? |
| 23:18:06 | saratoga | linuxstb: the Nano 1 G was rated for 14 hours off a 400mah battery, while the E200 gets about 20 hours off a 750mah battery |
| 23:18:12 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 23:18:33 | saratoga | i've tested the E200 with a DMM and confirmed that Sandisk's claim is about right |
| 23:19:22 | saratoga | while I wouldn't be surprised if Apple pads their estimates a bit, thats still a very large difference in average current consumption |
| 23:20:03 | linuxstb | It's different hardware though. |
| 23:20:06 | amiconn | The nano has a significantly smaller display |
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| 23:20:33 | saratoga | amiconn: I tested with the display off on the E series |
| 23:20:35 | amiconn | ..both in terms of pixels and physical size |
| 23:21:42 | saratoga | additionally, comparing rockbox to the OFs, we beat the Sandisk firmware, but fall quite short of the Apple firmware |
| 23:23:34 | bertrik | maybe apple uses the COP more efficiently. I was under the impression that our PP settings were at least partially rev-engineered from the apple firmwares |
| 23:24:35 | saratoga | in theory we use the COP most efficiently by keeping it disabled and having a sparse GUI that consumes very little CPU time |
| 23:25:18 | saratoga | though I really have no idea what the OFs actually use the COP for, since the Apple firmwares have pretty sparse GUIs on the PP targets as well |
| 23:25:47 | amiconn | Making better use of the cop would have 2 advantages |
| 23:26:36 | amiconn | It helps keeping the ui responsive under high decoding load, and since processing is split between 2 cores, the average clock can be lower |
| 23:27:02 | amiconn | ...which helps saving a bit of power in the pp peripheral modules |
| 23:27:37 | amiconn | But we're not using the cop yet, with 2 exceptions: mpegplayer and the greylib |
| 23:27:38 | saratoga | Buschel and I have not been able to measure any nonlinearity in the power/clock curve for the PP502X |
| 23:27:52 | saratoga | so either we're doing something wrong or its very small |
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| 23:28:15 | saratoga | I suppose I should go back and measure 16, 30, 60 and 80 MHz one of these days |
| 23:28:20 | amiconn | saratoga: You won't measure a nonlinearity if you're comparing the same amount of cop usage |
| 23:28:49 | saratoga | amiconn: Buschel tested by adjusting the min and max clock speeds to force it to spend more time at one or the other |
| 23:29:03 | amiconn | You would need to compare e.g. one core running full load at 60MHz, and the other one idling, vs. both cores running full load at 30MHz |
| 23:29:51 | saratoga | amiconn: thats one way to do it, but its easier to just compare running 50/50 at 30/80MHz and an equivilent load split between 16 and 80MHz |
| 23:29:52 | bertrik | I guess it would be tricky to have a codec run on two processors (and balance the load evenly) |
| 23:30:25 | amiconn | saratoga: That's not the same |
| 23:30:31 | saratoga | how so? |
| 23:30:43 | gevaerts | That would be tricky, but maybe you could do the codec on one code and dsp on the other |
| 23:31:09 | bertrik | ah yes ofcourse |
| 23:31:11 | amiconn | As long as the clock average stays the same (at it will if the processing load is the same), the peripherals will also see that same average clock |
| 23:31:33 | saratoga | amiconn: exactly, thus allowing you to see if the clock-power relationship is linear or not |
| 23:31:37 | amiconn | ...hence their average power consumption stays the same |
| 23:31:47 | amiconn | Yes, and I don't expect it to be |
| 23:31:56 | saratoga | amiconn: well thats what we were testing |
| 23:32:03 | amiconn | Err, I expect it to be (almost) linear |
| 23:32:46 | amiconn | My point was a different one: If we can balance processing load between cpu and cop, the *avera* clock will be lower |
| 23:32:52 | amiconn | *average |
| 23:33:08 | saratoga | I don't think thats true? |
| 23:33:19 | amiconn | ? |
| 23:33:19 | saratoga | particarly since we can't independently clock the two cores |
| 23:33:40 | amiconn | Sure it is |
| 23:33:51 | saratoga | at best 2x 40MHz cores == 1x 80MHz, and perfect parallelization is extremely unlikely |
| 23:34:18 | amiconn | Yes, but then the *peripherals* will save power (cause they're clock the same as the cores) |
| 23:34:26 | saratoga | more likely which ever core gets the codecs will be hammered, and the other nearly idle |
| 23:34:58 | amiconn | Again: don't limit your view to the cores |
| 23:35:08 | amiconn | The PPs are SoCs |
| 23:35:18 | saratoga | amiconn: but adjusting the min clock to change the boost ratio while keeping the average clock constant didn't impact battery life measurablely, so I don't think theres any difference here |
| 23:35:42 | saratoga | if the SOC components mattered, reducing the min clock should have increased power consumption since they'd be boosted more |
| 23:35:56 | amiconn | Please rethink this. If the average clock stays the same, it will also stay the same for the peripherals |
| 23:36:18 | amiconn | But if both cores do actual work, the average clock will be lower |
| 23:36:36 | * | gevaerts thinks that amiconn has a point |
| 23:36:47 | saratoga | oh I see what you're saying |
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| 23:37:34 | saratoga | though measuring this could be extremely difficult |
| 23:38:18 | amiconn | Well if you have a way to measure the current, it shouldn't be too difficult |
| 23:38:28 | saratoga | what test would you have in mind? |
| 23:38:43 | amiconn | (1) Set the clock to 80MHz, and let the CPU perform a dumb loop while the cop is idling |
| 23:39:03 | amiconn | (2) Set the clock to 40MHz, and let both CPU and COP perform dumb loops |
| 23:39:17 | amiconn | Now compare current |
| 23:39:22 | saratoga | yes that should work |
| 23:40:12 | saratoga | I guess this I should look at the mpegplayer plugin and try to figure out how to make both threads spin |
| 23:40:23 | saratoga | should be easy enough to log current in labview |
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| 23:41:51 | saratoga | if there is a large difference, how exactly would we exploit it? |
| 23:42:11 | saratoga | Ogg uses something like 31MHz, and I think the display and DSP overhead is only another 3-4 MHz |
| 23:42:30 | saratoga | our problem would seem to lack parallelism |
| 23:42:32 | amiconn | There were plans to make the codec run on the cop |
| 23:43:03 | saratoga | you think a few MHz drop in average clock is likely to make up the cost of having the COP on in the first place? |
| 23:43:05 | amiconn | The problem is passing data between the cores. It either needs to be put in iram, be uncached, or need cache flushes |
| 23:43:40 | amiconn | The cop is on anyway. And if a core has nothing to do, it goes to sleep until the next tick anyway |
| 23:43:56 | saratoga | passing between cores could be worked out easily enough I think using IRAM, although it would require looking at a few of the codecs I'm not familar with |
| 23:44:02 | gevaerts | That display and dsp overhead is for default settings. It's easy to make that go up a bit |
| 23:44:28 | saratoga | putting the output buffer in IRAM is usually pretty easy, since the output buffer can be shared with one of the codec's internal buffers |
| 23:44:35 | amiconn | There would be an additional advantage if the COP does most of the work, and the CPU does UI, dsp, and buffering: buffering would happen faster, and hence the disk won't spin as long |
| 23:45:14 | saratoga | i guess what we'd do is flip over the main codecs that don't already use IRAM, and then just put a wrapper that flushes on the others until we get around to fixing them |
| 23:45:35 | * | bertrik would like a nice picture on how the CPU / COP and peripheral clocks depend on each other :P |
| 23:46:49 | amiconn | CPU and COP clock are coupled. Either core clock can be stopped dynamically though, either for a fixed time (specified in clock cycles, microseconds, milliseconds, or second (on PP5022+ only)), or until an interrupt occurs |
| 23:47:45 | saratoga | when its "stopped" is the core still clocked? |
| 23:48:24 | saratoga | bertrik: theres some info about clocking in firmware/target/arm/system-pp502x.c |
| 23:48:26 | amiconn | Most peripherals seem to run from the main clock as well. The colour lcd bridge can be switched between the various sources (24MHz, PLL, and 2x PLL with prescaler) like the core clock can |
| 23:48:59 | * | amiconn would like to know how much power the PLL itself needs |
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| 23:50:01 | amiconn | saratoga: No, stopped means stopped. |
| 23:50:05 | saratoga | amiconn: buschel made a patch that disabled the PPL and ran at 24MHz (IIRC), but it made no difference in power consumption |
| 23:50:13 | saratoga | i just assumed it wasn't really disabled though |
| 23:50:14 | amiconn | I.e. no clock until the defined event occurs |
| 23:50:41 | saratoga | is this what we do to the COP? |
| 23:50:41 | amiconn | It's a clock gate, controlled from outside the core itself |
| 23:50:43 | bertrik | I can imagine that it would be possible to run the cores at a relatively high clock (mostly idling) and running the peripherals from a fixed clock |
| 23:50:52 | amiconn | We're doing it to both cores |
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| 23:52:23 | amiconn | Both cores are running the same threading code, which puts the respective core to sleep if there's nothing to do |
| 23:52:51 | amiconn | The tick wakes up both cores periodically |
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| 23:53:13 | | Quit Vorador ("Ex-Chat") |
| 23:54:20 | saratoga | what were the remaining technical issues to running the codecs on COP? just cache coherency for the call to pcmbuf_insert()? |
| 23:54:28 | saratoga | or was there more to be worked out |
| 23:54:44 | amiconn | You need to pass data in both directions |
| 23:55:38 | amiconn | And I'm not sure whether that's actually the case, but if codecs are accessing files directly, we would probably get into serious trouble |
| 23:56:15 | amiconn | Then all the file code, fat code, and ata/sd/whatever driver code would need to be dual core safe |
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| 23:57:28 | amiconn | Imo the COP shouldn't be allowed to access the file, fat, and ata api at all |
| 23:58:10 | Lear | Codecs only use the buffer, afaik. The file API isn't in the codec API, is it? |
| 23:58:21 | saratoga | I don't think codec touch files directly, since they'd bypass the file buffer |
| 23:58:39 | amiconn | I mean stuff like open(), read(), lseek() etc |
| 23:58:51 | Lear | Me too. |
| 23:58:56 | saratoga | so at a minimum, read_filebuf and pcmbuf_insert need to be thread safe |
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