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#rockbox log for 2008-10-25

00:00:08webguest1Im reseting it by holding down select and menu for a few seconds, not pressing any buttons just after reset, hold is not on, the Rockbox version is the default version installed by the Rockbox Utility , Rockbox has worked
00:00:29 Join fml [0] (n=4fd3c2ee@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
00:01:21fmlThis is to nag the developers: please commit FS #9455 (custom padding string for forward scrolling lines)
00:01:30 Join Star [0] (n=453ceedb@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
00:02:12BigBambiwebguest1: Thanks :)
00:02:35Stardoes anyone know how to install revisions?
00:02:43StarI don't understand it :(
00:02:48BigBambiwebguest1: So Rockbox was OK, you dual booted to the Apple firmware, and now after a hard reset you still just get the Apple firmware?
00:03:09BigBambiYou haven't restored, or updated the Apple firmware or anything like that?
00:03:21BigBambiStar: You want to install a specific revision?
00:03:41 Quit kachna (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
00:03:50BigBambiStar: You can check out a specific version of the source code with SVN then compile it
00:03:57webguest1o ok that may be the problem, I recently updated the Apple firmware
00:04:14BigBambiyes, that will have removed the Rockbox bootloader
00:04:21Staryeah, I want to install 17758 because its right before when they screwed it up
00:04:33BigBambiwebguest1: You need to reinstall the bootloader with rbutil
00:04:43bluebrotherStar: "they screwed it up"?
00:04:44BigBambiStar: Who screwed what up?
00:04:45webguest1ok thanks
00:04:56bertrikus developers did
00:05:08bluebrotherstupid developers. Shoot them!
00:05:10BigBambibertrik: Bastards!
00:05:32bluebrothersue them!
00:05:37BigBambiI want my money back!
00:05:43Starat revision 17759, they apparently screwed it up and made it so the now playing screen doesn't change with the theme
00:05:49BigBambiYes, it does
00:05:59bluebrotherStar: that's nonsense.
00:05:59BigBambiIt is just the theme you are trying to use is out of date
00:06:03Starso I figured, if I could install the revision before it, 17758, I could have my now playing screen?
00:06:03BigBambiIt needs fixing
00:06:11BigBambiFix the theme
00:06:20Starbut why can't I just go back in revisions?
00:06:30StarI don't know I can't fix the theme
00:06:35bluebrotherbecause "fixing" an issue by avoiding it isn't fixing.
00:06:47bluebrotheralso, the theme files are a simple markup language. No need for coding skills
00:06:51BigBambiStar: No coding involved, it is easy
00:07:06BigBambiStar: It is harder to check out a specific version of the source and compile than to fix a theme
00:07:35Star"%P %pb and %m have all been changed recently so if your WPS isnt loading its most likely because of that..."
00:07:40Starwhat does that even mean?
00:07:42*bluebrother wouldn't call it hard to check out a specific version and compile :P
00:07:49BigBambiYou can of course use an old version of Rockbox if you want but a) You wont get support and b) you will need to compile
00:07:55bluebrotherwell, for starters you whould open the wps file
00:07:59BigBambiStar: How about reading the post, not just the title?
00:08:10BigBambibluebrother: me neither, but ...
00:08:11bluebrotherBigBambi: bah, who reads posts?
00:08:39Stardude, that quote is from the post :P not the title
00:08:57BigBambiread the whole damn thread, and the links contained within it
00:08:58Star:) I guess maybe I'm too stupid to understand the post?
00:09:11BigBambiI couldn't say
00:09:12Starkk one sec :P
00:09:12pixelmamaybe read the CustomWPS and the SimpleGuideToWPSMaking wiki pages too
00:09:44bluebrotherwell, that post even has a "for the lazy" part
00:10:25pixelmawhich I never understood
00:10:54BigBambiNo, and I don't understand why the same link is there three times
00:10:59Star...but if I did this method...wouldn't I have to change every single theme I have installed?
00:11:16fmlPle-e-ease! FS #9455. It's been such a long discussion! Now the patch shines!
00:11:21BigBambiStar: Any that are outdated, yes
00:11:22bluebrotherhow may themes are you using?
00:11:33BigBambiNot the ones that come with Rockbox
00:11:47Staryes, custom downloaded ones
00:11:52Starfrom the download page :)
00:12:06BigBambiWhich download page?
00:12:07pixelmaBigBambi: I asked JdGordon about it and he said "just to have the link there three times". Must be 1 or 2 weeks ago...
00:12:22BigBambipixelma: Right, silly me
00:12:39pixelmame too
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00:12:49bluebrotherthat page is heavily outdated
00:12:51BigBambiThat is not official, and deprecated
00:13:09BigBambiIt is nothing to do with us
00:13:11Staroh...where do I find updated themes -___-?
00:13:34Star(now I feel like a complete retard :3 )
00:13:54BigBambiThe idea is to relaunch it at some point soon officially, but as of now, anything on there is completely separate (and it hasn't been updated in months)
00:13:55domonokyin the WpsGallerys in the wiki ? = officialy
00:14:33*bluebrother never understood why people make such a fuss about themes
00:14:40BigBambiAlthough as it is a wiki, there may well be outdated ones on there too
00:14:47bluebrotheryou rarely look at the player anyway ...
00:15:22BigBambiStar: You can of course ask for specific problems in updating themes
00:15:35Starso will all these themes work?
00:15:43Staror only certain ones ?
00:16:19BigBambiWhich themes?
00:16:31Starthe themes on the page you linked to me
00:16:35BigBambiOn the gallery, I just don't know
00:16:40StarI have an Ipod 5g if that helps
00:16:49BigBambiI suspect a good many will
00:17:07Starthanks guys
00:17:10BigBambiIt depends if someone has updated it or not - these are all community submitted
00:17:16pixelmayou can look out for those which were recently updated
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00:17:32Starhmmmm is there a certain date that I should look at?
00:17:36BigBambiStar: As I say, I'd strongly recommend fixing them. If you have problems, please ask
00:17:53Starlike, what date would be considered "old" and not working?
00:18:09StarI would try to fix them, but trust me, I'd rather start with this...
00:18:16BigBambiEarlier than early July I think?
00:18:22StarI'm not the smartest guy in the world :P
00:18:23Starok thanks
00:19:12BigBambi23 June apparently
00:20:16Starso, are you guys like, developers of rockbox? or just really smart with it? :P
00:20:17bluebrotherbeing smart is one thing. Trying to get things done regardless is another ...
00:20:59BigBambiStar: Everyone save me that answered is a dev
00:21:24BigBambiI'm more support/a fan :)
00:21:42Stardev means developer right?
00:21:42 Quit mf0102 ("Ex-Chat")
00:21:53BigBambiyes, sorry
00:22:04Starsok lol I was jw :)
00:22:33webguest1does Rockbox Utility automatically install the latest version of Rockbox?
00:23:05bluebrotherwebguest1: depends on the installation method. Which are you referring to, and what are you referring as latest? Latest official release or latest available?
00:23:08BigBambiyes, if you select the correct option, the name of which I have temporarily forgotten
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00:27:48webguest1Well, when I installed Rockbox onto my Ipod I just clicked on complete installation in the Rockbox Utility. I'm referring to Rockbox 3.0, which is the current build.
00:28:34bluebrotherRockbox 3.0 is NOT the current build. The most current build is the one created after the last commit
00:29:02bluebrothercomplete installation will install the most current build. If you want to get 3.0 you need to use the "Installation" tab
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00:29:21bluebrotherby doing so you get to choose which build gets installed.
00:30:04webguest1o ok thanks
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00:33:13bluebrotherhmm. When moving files, should changes to those files be made separately? svn allows doing both at once
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00:35:43fmlXavierGr: nice work! Now wake up and start nagging! :-)
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00:39:42Starmy themes work :):):):)
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00:40:15StarI love rockbox nowww :)
00:41:16Starthanks guys peace out :D
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00:45:04adamgoldingcan one sync ratings in rockbox with a desktop app, or with the ratings tags on the files?
00:49:40XavierGrfml: hehe
00:49:42bluebrotherunless you write something for doing it, of course
00:50:00adamgoldingso ratings in the rockbox db are stuck in the rockbox db?
00:51:38XavierGrbluebrother: interesting, h300, player, recorder and ondio all built fine
00:51:54Lloreanadamgolding: Rockbox just runs on the player, it has no way to talk to your PC. A better question is to ask your favorite PC-side software authors "Can you add support for reading ratings from the Rockbox DB?"
00:52:10XavierGrbluebrother: but let me check something first
00:52:24bluebrotherXavierGr: looks like rockbox doesn't have strncat but the sim only
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00:52:54bluebrotherat least I can't find an implementation of strncat
00:53:16XavierGrbluebrother: yup! that's what you get when you don't test it on the real target the final time
00:53:51bluebrothernow let's check for the bin delta ...
00:55:12XavierGrbluebrother: it should be around 700, at least that's what I got some revisions before
00:55:33XavierGron h300 that is
00:55:57bluebrothercan't you use a lower number? 700 seems quite much for such a tiny feature to me
00:56:28adamgoldingLlorean i seem to remember someone saying rockbox could sync its db with the OF database, but i may be crazy
00:56:44XavierGrI will test again, but what can I do, it is just 1 settings (2 for targets with remote) and 1 function
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00:57:04bluebrothertrue. mini2g is 400 bytes
00:57:20bluebrotherwhich sounds quite better ;-)
00:57:31bluebrother(after replacing strncat with strcat)
00:58:00XavierGrbluebrother: I got 600 (on h300) when the setting was only pixel spacing, and there were no new functions or data except an integer
00:58:14XavierGrso the binsize is a settings problem
00:58:39fmlXavierGr: try to replace strncat with snprintf. This will eliminate one function call and make assigning 0 not necessary
00:59:14XavierGrfml: as far as I remember we can't use snprintf on those files, let me check again
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01:01:59fmlXavierGr: why not?
01:02:20XavierGrit seems it is not included
01:02:32XavierGrwhich header file does it have snprintf?
01:03:51bluebrothersnprintf should be in string.h
01:04:22bluebrotherah, no.
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01:04:32fmlXavierGr: sprintf.h and stdio.h
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01:04:58fmlXavierGr: either would do
01:05:05bluebrotherstdio.h it is.
01:05:18*bluebrother too slow
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01:10:51fml /quit
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01:11:56XavierGrbluebrother: something like snprintf(s->line, sizeof(s->line), "%s%s", s->line, lcd_scroll_info.padding);
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01:12:08XavierGrshould be right
01:14:11bluebrotherXavierGr: well, I'll leave that for tomorrow. Still, I dislike that the padding string doesn't get padded itself but "sticks" to the scrolling string
01:15:23bluebrotherI absolutely can't think of a case where one would want to not use a space for padding to that string
01:15:30XavierGrbluebrother: well that's how it was done before, and changing that should be quite complex or need restructuring to achieve
01:16:18XavierGrI mean about the sticking part
01:16:35bluebrotherpreviously there were two spaces as padding, so no sticking ...
01:16:56bluebrotherbut IMO it should get discussed how this should work. Haven't checked the logs for that lately though.
01:17:43XavierGrbluebrother: last time it was discussed with Lloeran and JdGordon which was about pixel space padding
01:18:02XavierGrthen it was changed to string padding
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01:18:28bluebrotherwhat was the result of that discussion? No pixel padding at all?
01:18:45XavierGrThe result was the first patch on 9455
01:19:07XavierGrbut then came your idea, which fml and I welcomed ;)
01:19:25XavierGrit is the same thing, save the string typing
01:19:35XavierGr(which makes things a little bit more complex)
01:20:12bluebrotherso it's the patch that was deleted from the task?
01:20:53XavierGrnope, the patch that says scroll_space_margin6.diff
01:21:11XavierGrit is on the task description
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01:22:48bluebrotherok. From checking that diff it always adds a single space first.
01:23:24XavierGrif you set it to 0 pixels it won't as far as I remember
01:23:41XavierGrthe default being 10 pixels padding of course
01:24:01bluebrotherso 0 px would have been 1 space. Which means that from my point of view it should include a space before and one after the padding string.
01:25:08XavierGrbut why is there a problem about no padding at all? Why limit it if there is no harm. If the setting is absent from the config file it will default to 3 spaces. If the entry on the config file is erroneous it will again default to 3 spaces
01:25:57bluebrotherI have the feeling that users will complain about stuff like "string +++string"
01:26:06XavierGrit will only leave no space when the user explicitly states "" on the config file or deletes the string from the virtual keyboard
01:27:06XavierGrwell the user can always add the space, that is what this setting is all about, give the user a string and he should do whatever he likes with it
01:29:05XavierGrbluebrother: about the pixel spacing patch, as I see it if the user selects 0 pixels then 0 / widdth of font = 0 so when the memset tries to input spaces it won't
01:30:10bluebrotherhmm. True. I misread the comment above.
01:31:17bluebrothermaybe having the virtual keyboard display spaces using a substituting character would help with this.
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01:32:48XavierGrbluebrother: again I don't think that it would need that at all, remember that virtual keyboard has a carret which shows exatly if there are spaces on input (at least on the end of the string)
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01:35:33bluebrotherXavierGr: that will only show it if the cursor is at the end of the input line. But I've got to go for today, see you tomorrow.
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01:40:58webguest65How do I add roms to my ipod to be able to play them using rockboy?
01:42:00XavierGrwebguest65: just put them on a normal folder and select them
01:42:16XavierGrI mean just like playing an audio file in Rockbox
01:42:45webguest65I tried that but its not working
01:43:18XavierGrwhat happened?
01:45:46webguest65I can't find them on the ipod
01:47:18XavierGrgo to settings and find the option to show either all files or supported
01:48:49webguest65on the ipod?
01:50:10XavierGrSettings->General Settings->File View->Show Files->Supported or All
01:53:21webguest65i still don't see them
01:53:42XavierGrwebguest65: where did you put them?
01:53:53XavierGrput them on the root of your player
01:53:59XavierGr(just to be sure)
01:54:10XavierGrthen make the setting I told you to all
01:54:52XavierGrroot = E:\, G:\ or whatever letter your device is. (if you are on windows)
01:55:18webguest65they are supposed to be gbc files right?
01:55:23webguest65thats where they are
01:57:09XavierGrit supports .gb and .gbc if I recall but try with gb only first
01:57:39pixelmawebguest65: which Ipod do you have exactly?
01:58:06webguest655G Ipod
01:59:55pixelmaok, was just making sure it was an Ipod with colour display
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02:02:23webguest65ok guys I figured out how to do it
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03:48:42saratogaanyone know why profiling codecs doesn't seem to recognize time spent in the MDCT library?
03:53:21saratogahmm no $(PROFILE_OPTS) in the codec lib's makefile
03:54:14saratogawell if anyone is interested, heres profiling results for everything minus the MDCT:
03:54:24saratogathe codec seems to have a lot of trouble with huffman decoding
03:54:43saratogamost of the remaining time is spent in dequantisation
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04:41:12pradeeptoI bought a new ipod shuffle (1GB) sometime back. I wanted to ask if rockbox works on this model.
04:41:33pradeeptoi didn't find the manual for shuffle on rockbox website.
04:43:17advcomp2019because the shuffle is not support
04:43:58pradeeptoah, thats what i wanted to know.
04:44:54pradeeptoGreat work btw @ rockbox. :)
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10:14:09DigitalisAkujinSo I managed to install grub on my ipod without breaking the firmware by embedding a FAT16 partition with GRUB on it on the last 12 sectors of the drive.
10:14:34DigitalisAkujinBut I'm kind of a n00b. How would I setup a menu and the like...
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11:04:55mrkikoHi all!
11:04:57mrkikoI'm back again...
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11:36:17JdGordonis there any reason to keep the old wxWidgets rbutil code around? seems a bit silly having rbuitl/rbutilqt
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11:43:43linuxstbJdGordon: ? The old wxwidgets code was removed about a year ago.
11:44:09JdGordonhaha woops...
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11:44:22*JdGordon will reply to your email... just not right now
12:01:19JdGordonwhat would be the general feeling towards setting up a system so things which use buffer_alloc() could be released and realloced to allow things being en/disabled without restart, or user being able to increasse buffer sizes if needed?
12:01:50JdGordonthen maybe being able to do this without evn stopping playback?
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12:08:41linuxstbI think it would definitely be nice to be able to reallocate things without rebooting, but I wouldn't want it to get too complicated.
12:09:23JdGordoncomplication is my middle name</bond voice>
12:10:14JdGordonI just checked the source and was pretty surpried to see the zvm needing buffer_Alloc() in its ata driver which could make things interesting
12:10:33JdGordonthats the only firmware level call (other than dircache)
12:13:21linuxstbHow big is that alloc?
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12:15:13JdGordonnot sure.... its some filesize/0x8000
12:15:45*JdGordon will try to remember to ask mcuelenaere about it
12:16:06n1sJdGordon: that would be a nice feature indeed, /me takes cover from malloc haters ;)
12:16:17linuxstbMaybe we need two kinds of buffer_alloc - ones which depend on user settings, and ones which don't. If possible, the ones that don't vary should be done first, and then "locked" in some way.
12:16:29JdGordonn1s: well yeah, thats the argument against
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12:16:56JdGordonand yeah, no reason we could split it into a permanet and less permanant buffer
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12:25:32linuxstbOne thing not to forget - stopping/resuming playback is fine (IMO), but not recording..,
12:26:24n1sThe new sansa bootloaders and sansapatchers in FS #9369 seems to be tested and working ok any last comments before they go on the servers?
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12:28:00JdGordonlinuxstb: the reallocing wouldnt be able to happen unless the user asked for it, and they (hopefully) wouldnt do that while recording
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12:31:01n1sJdGordon: we could put in a "This will stop and restart recording, are you sure you want to?" thing when recording.
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14:24:21n1shmm, it seems the codeclib mdct thingy is built with the same O level as the rest of rockbox, this should probably be tested with different levels, especially on gigabeat f since that uses the c version and while the coldfires do too, 02 doesn't seem to make any difference there.
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14:29:35xorAxAxhmm, my rockbox doesnt play AAC-LC m4b files, it recognizes the length as 15 min. even though they have 30 and skips them completely
14:29:55xorAxAxany idea why this could happen? might upgrading help?
14:30:30funmandepends how old your current version is, I don't know which changes went in AAC decoder lately
14:30:56funmanwhat's m4b, I suppose you meant m4a ?
14:31:13xorAxAxm4b is bookmarkable m4a
14:31:26xorAxAxno idea if they differ besides the file extension, its aliased in rockbox
14:31:48funmaneven if rockbox doesn't support bookmarks it should ignore them, so there is no big deal
14:32:34funmanno error on the screen ? can you play them with another player ?
14:32:45martian67are they drm'd?
14:55:55funmanI have the Clip' SDRAM initialization fine ;)
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15:04:27mcuelenaereJdGordon: you wanted to ask me something?
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15:05:17JdGordonabout the buffer_alloc() in the zvn ata driver
15:05:40mcuelenaereah yes
15:05:52mcuelenaerethat's because it needs quite a lot of RAM
15:06:14mcuelenaereand as it depends on the partition, it is prettier if it gets allocated dynamically
15:06:25JdGordonok, we can work around it
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15:09:09domonokyfunman: nice !
15:10:26funmanlooks like the m200v2 has the same kind of SDRAM
15:12:18domonokym200v2 seems to have 512k x16bit x2 banks = 2MB Sdram.. if i read the markings correctly
15:13:10funman1Mbit * 16, 2 banks
15:13:24funmanaccording to PL172 datasheet
15:14:28xorAxAxmartian67: no
15:14:31xorAxAxfunman: yes, mplayer works fine
15:15:52funmanxorAxAx: in my own experience, AAC support is quite buggy and differs in different players, did you try another program ?
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15:23:34xorAxAxfunman: hmm?
15:23:43xorAxAxto see what?
15:24:04funmanif a bug in mplayer lets it play your broken file
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16:01:15funmandomonoky: can you try the SDRAM code on your m200v2 ?
16:01:34domonokyi am just trying :-)
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16:04:39funmanit didn't work before because I missed something the OF does: loading the word at offset 0x4600 in the RAM - I have absolutely no idea what this step does
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16:07:59jchillerupHi. I want to help you get as much info as possible about the ipod classic. How can I help?
16:08:17JdGordonbreak the firmware encryption
16:08:19jchillerupI also have some C experience, but I supopse that isn't really needed at this point
16:08:34jchillerupCan I read about what has been done thus far anywhere?
16:09:02funmanjchillerup: maybe you should contact the linux4nano project, hoping the encryption is the same for classic and nano
16:09:21jchilleruphm yeah
16:09:31domonokyfunman: sdram_test() reports OK for sansa m200v2 ! :-)
16:09:41jchillerupThing is, I need a new MP3 player. I'm considering buying an ipod because of its size
16:09:47jchilleruplike, physical size
16:10:08jchillerupI already have a 5g which I love, but it broke yesterday :(
16:10:10JdGordonfunman: can i test something on the e200?
16:10:33funmanJdGordon: not out of the box since there is no lcd driver yet
16:10:36funmandomonoky: good ;)
16:10:53JdGordonbah, oh yeah :(
16:10:54funmandany_21a_ is going to test on the e200v2 already I think
16:11:34funmanjchillerup: if you want rockbox, better buy a second hand player
16:11:45funmanor buy a still-manufactured sansav2 and help us porting ;)
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16:11:56jchillerupyeah. But I'm also considering contributing to this project
16:12:03jchillerupI'm not as dumb as I sound currently :)
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16:12:40funmanwhen I joined I knew nearly nothing about embedded devices and now we have made a great progress so it's worth :)
16:12:44gevaertsIn my opinion, the classic is very unlikely to ever have a rockbox port.
16:12:59jchillerupI know something about embedded systems, and a great deal of C
16:13:20*domonoky cheers to funman, really good work !
16:14:01funmanjchillerup: if you know C you can browse the bug reports and patches and comment/fix stuff
16:14:10jchillerupHm. Wouldn't it be possible to use a ring 0 debugger and an USB snooping program in parallel and figure out what itunes does when uploading a new firmware
16:14:19jchillerupNot a bad idea
16:14:26funmanjchillerup: I think it's useless
16:14:27jchillerup(the bug fixing stuff)
16:14:31martian67jchillerup: pretty useless
16:14:34soapyou're assuming the firmware isn't encrypted the entire path.
16:14:34martian67most likely
16:14:48soapand your assumption is wrong.
16:14:49funmanaccording to linux4nano findings the firmware is stored on the device still encrypted
16:15:12funmandomonoky: now the last step: SD !
16:15:17jchillerupIf I was a hardware vendor I'd endorse homebrew :)
16:15:31funmanthen buy Apple ;)
16:15:58soapMind you, decrypting the firmware is a one-off thing and only enables reverse engineering. There is still the non trivial fact that the firmware is most likely either signed or required to be encrypted to be executed by the player's hardware.
16:16:23domonokyfunman: yes, SD is now really needed.. when we have SD, it wont take long, and we can play super mario :-)
16:16:47soapAnd if we assume Apple put a penny's worth of effort into the attempt, they would use public key encryption meaning you have no home of ever finding the signing key.
16:17:22martian67soap: public key encryption would be a very bad choice
16:17:32martian67for a embedded device
16:17:40martian67public key encryption is very slow
16:17:41soapSo help funman with the Sansa v2s, and I'll send you a nice "Classic" sticker you can attach to your E200 ;)
16:17:56funmansoap: if symetric encryption is used I would think there is no need for signing
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16:18:17gevaertsmartian67: we're talking about a few megabytes on boot on a 500MHz CPU
16:18:21martian67most likely what they have is a symetric key encrypted by an public key
16:18:23funmansince if it's not encrypted with the correct key, decrypting wouldn't result on a valid firmware
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16:18:29martian67gevaerts: way too slow
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16:18:53gevaertsAnd who says that they donm
16:19:00soapmartian67, slow is a state of being, not a unit of time. You don't always need to use the fastest solution to be effective and considering the Apple firmware sleeps, as opposed to powering off 99% of the time, you only need to decrypt once in a blue moon.
16:19:00gevaertsAnd who says that they don't have hardware help?
16:19:12funmanthere is cryptographic chips in mac computers
16:19:27funmanI know they can be used to store keys, not sure if they can help computation
16:19:34martian67gevaerts: why would they even go to such lengths?
16:19:48soapwhy wouldn't they?
16:19:51martian67why would they include a dedicated crypto chip
16:19:55soapIt's easy, cheap, and a one-off expense.
16:19:57martian67that would just drive up cost for no reason
16:20:06gevaertsIf you do encryption, either you do it properly or you don't do it atb all
16:20:23martian67they arnt trying to stop the nsa from accessing their childporn
16:20:34martian67so, no thats a very invalid sentiment
16:20:40soapand there is good reason to believe the SoC they use supports it by default. There are plenty of SoCs out there which do.
16:20:52funmanI think they do worse: preventing geeks from accessing their appleporn
16:21:32gevaertsmartian67: if you do symmetric encription, someone will find the key
16:21:56martian67they likely do what i said
16:22:01martian67most likely what they have is a symetric key encrypted by an public key
16:22:07gevaertsIt may take a while, and it may take special hardware and electron microscopes, but they will find it
16:22:12martian67thats how any reasonable system does it
16:22:20funmanit's what is used in SSL
16:22:21martian67ssh, ssl
16:22:55martian67which means the symetric key gets loaded into memory
16:22:58martian67at some point
16:23:10gevaertsAnd how does that help you?
16:23:25martian67it would allow you to decrypt the firmware
16:23:41gevaertsYes, but you still can't run your own code
16:23:57martian67there may be an exploit
16:23:57gevaertsSo it's totally useless
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16:24:03martian67like what has worked for a lot of platforms
16:24:05martian67no, not useless
16:24:10soapthere may be life on the moon - doesn't help us
16:24:20martian67thats exactly how the psp was cracked
16:24:22martian67and the wii
16:24:51soapConsider the difference between a system designed to run third-party code and a system not.
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16:25:04*gevaerts will believe that it's not useless when he sees code run, not before
16:25:14martian67well calling it useless ahead of time
16:25:20martian67its rather premature
16:25:35martian67soap: all psp and wii applications are signed just like apples
16:25:44soapmissing the greater point.
16:25:46gevaertsSo is saying that it must use symmetric encryption when asymmetric makes much more sense
16:26:00soapyou're mixing and matching the idea of applications and one-off firmwares.
16:26:01martian67gevaerts: i didnt say it DIDNT use asymetric
16:26:15martian67i said it most likely dosent use asymetric encryption alone
16:26:17martian67its too slow
16:26:29funmanand there really is no point
16:26:30soapI showed you why it doesn't matter how slow it is.
16:26:44martian67soap: if the ipod takes 1 minute to boot
16:26:48martian67people arnt gonna like that
16:26:57martian67and furthermore, it dosent
16:26:58soapThe ipod SLEEPS it only boots once in a blue moon.
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16:27:08funmandon't forget it's all hypothesis - not much to argue on ;)
16:27:37martian67soap: the ipod boot time is too fast for it to be entirely asymetric
16:27:46soapit ISN'T BOOTING
16:27:51soapit is awaking.
16:27:52martian67when it does boot
16:27:56martian67is what im saying
16:28:24gevaertsYou're still assuming that there is no hardware help
16:29:03martian67i am not aware of any hardware that does asymetric acceleration
16:29:18rasherEven if the key is loaded to memory, that doesn't help if you can't read the memory..
16:29:20martian67but, dosent mean that it dosent exist
16:29:43martian67gevaerts: it would be a very small market, basicly nothing relies entirely on asymetric keys
16:30:11funmanexcept pgp/gpg
16:30:51funmanbut it's 'pretty great paranoia' , not much related to the ipod i guess
16:31:29rashersoap: Newer iPods do run games, so I guess that's one attack vector
16:31:50rasherAssuming you managed to fool it into running your own one, somehow
16:31:56soaparen't they Apple games?
16:32:04martian67even then
16:32:09martian67its addon software
16:32:20rashersoap: They're not built into the firmware - you can download new ones etc
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16:32:31gevaertsDon't people usually use game datafiles, and not the game itself?
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16:33:02martian67gevaerts: dont forget the ipod has datafiles too :)
16:33:02martian67namely music and movies
16:33:19soapCalling a limited number of 1st party software addons the same as a huge selection of 3rd party ones is pushing the limits of semantics, IMHO.
16:33:26martian67decrypting the firmware would be the first step in discovering any exploits
16:33:28funmanand settings and playlists
16:33:51martian67soap: it dosent change anything ive said
16:34:15martian67so you really are arguing a moot point
16:34:32gevaertsmartian67: indeed. So first decrypt the firmware, then look at the rest. But as long as nobody has any idea about what encryption system is used, nothing much will happen
16:34:38funmanthe sansa clip is the sexiest ever anyway, no point talking about ipod classic ;)
16:34:42martian67this is true
16:35:06martian67but im just saying, it likely has a significant weakness
16:35:18martian67and that weakness is LIKELY that a symetric key is in memory
16:35:32funmanwasn't the sansa(v1) encryption (or only signing) defeated ?
16:35:35*gevaerts still isn't convinced of that
16:35:43soapPost your proposal for a likely attack vector and the monies you need to do it, and I've long said I'll pay for it. Else this is navel-gazing.
16:35:43rashermartian: Still, good luck getting at that if it's there
16:36:16funmansoap: attack vector: buying 51% Apple shares. will you fund?
16:36:24martian67lol :)
16:36:29domonokyfunman: yes, the sansa v1 signing was defeated, because there is a big hole.. :-)
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16:37:59funmanas well as in debian's openssh patches; so why not in Apple's code ?
16:38:07soap(reasonable monies) - I'm not buying a scanning electron microscope for you.
16:38:15funmanI think the first step will be when cryptographers become interested
16:38:55rasherProblem is, the intersection of cryptographers, hardware engineers and ipod owners is pretty small...
16:39:01n1sdomonoky: but the actual encryption was broken too, i just turned out that we don't need to use it :)
16:39:29funmanrasher: you forget the intersection with the interested people ;)
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18:33:16jackallhello tout le monde
18:34:33domonokywelcome, please write english :-)
18:34:42bluebrotherje ne parlais francais ...
18:35:02jackallok sorry
18:35:10jackallhello every one :)
18:35:32*bluebrother wonders if his french was anything near correct
18:35:58jackallI got a problem for installing ipodlinux on my ipod nano 3rd gen
18:36:02moosbluebrother: s/parlais/parle ;)
18:36:30*moos hides and quit
18:36:32bluebrotherjackall: first, this channel is about Rockbox. Second, Rockbox doesn't run on the Nano 3G, and IPL doesn't either
18:36:38 Quit moos ("bye all")
18:36:45domonokyjackall: for ipodlinux problemes, please go to #ipodlinux..
18:37:09bluebrotherunless they did a major breakthrough, but I highly doubt that
18:37:37jackall oki that was my second question ( if there were any way of getting it to work - rockbox-)
18:38:07jackallno they dont , and I m also on #ipodlinux but no answer yet
18:39:19jackallso there really is no chance for me get rid of apples firmware ...
18:39:44bluebrotherget a different player (or an older Ipod) ;-)
18:40:06jackallthat would be a good solution ^^
18:40:31*bluebrother pats his mini
18:42:54bluebrotherIpod Mini. The best Ipod ever made (IMO ;)
18:44:18jackallmaybe never test one, mine is a nano 3rd gen with video ( pretty good but the firmware is "a bit " too restrictive for a open source fan )
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18:46:02jackallok must go
18:46:20jackallbye and thak your for your help and your work
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18:51:39n1shmm, seems like i overlooked one thing in the calendar plugin buttonmap, ipods use menu+select to exit and select+play to open the editing menu, would it not be better to exit with menu and open the menu with select?
18:52:28bluebrothercan't menu open the menu? At least that's written on the button ...
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18:57:47n1shmm, it's not for opening the menu, it's for showing the memos for a day, so select seems more logical to me, there's however nothing preventing us from using menu and select in the same way, if we for example exit with play or menu + selec
19:00:49n1sah, wrong again, menu is used for another function, i'll go with select for selecting and menu+select for exiting then
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19:31:59bluebrotherdoes the pluginlib menu handling also handle the backdrop / statusbar settings?
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19:44:13PhotoguyAnybody here?
19:44:52PhotoguyOk, I was wondering what that website was again..
19:45:01bluebrotheronly bots around
19:45:02PhotoguyThe one that sells v1 e200's.
19:45:28bluebrotherthere isn't a specific one. froobi had some refurbished ones. No idea if they still got some
19:45:30PhotoguyIt had something to do with frogs I think.
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19:45:39PhotoguyYeah that's it!
19:45:43bluebrotherebay is also a site you can get ones
19:46:00PhotoguyI have a v1, and it's failing.
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19:53:39PhotoguyThe e250r works with rockbox, correct?
19:54:36n1sit's just a tiny bit more complicated to install the bootloader the first time
19:55:03PhotoguyI'm conidering buying one from froobi.
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19:59:22PhotoguySo, anyone have any thoughts about a good rockbox compatible mp3 player?
19:59:51n1si'm sure the BuyersGuide wiki page has a couple of thoughts on the matter ;)
20:00:22PhotoguySo, what do you guys do here?
20:00:27PhotoguyShoo people away?
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20:01:02krazykitshoo them to the wiki if there's a relevant page :)
20:01:21n1sno, we talk about rockbox, but repeating the same question/answer over and over again isn't that much fun so we put it in the wiki
20:01:33n1sals since the answer is long and complex
20:02:24bluebrotherthe major problem is that a "good" player heavily depends on your needs / requirements. A player I consider good might be something you didn't consider good at all.
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20:03:17PhotoguyI just want flash memory, and decent build quality.
20:03:22webguest10If you want a flash player and if can wait a little bit longer, you might consider looking at the Cowon D2
20:04:05PhotoguyAre the creating a port for it?
20:04:16 Quit karashata ("I go, only to return again some time...")
20:04:19n1sPhotoguy: the only supported flash based players are ipod nano 1g sansa e200 v1, c200 v1 and archos ondio
20:04:21krazykitof course, the danger is that the port may never get finished for a variety of reasons.
20:04:28webguest10There is already a port, but it's not stable enough
20:04:38bluebrotherthere is work underway to port Rockbox to the D2. But I wouldn't hold my breath, there is no guarantee when or even if that gets finished.
20:04:53n1sseveral ports to newer flash based targets are in progress but there is no telling when/if they will get usable
20:05:17PhotoguyWell the Cowon d2 looks pretty good.
20:05:33webguest10IIRC the D2 is already *usable*, but there are still some issues with the NAND
20:05:34PhotoguyNice sized screem
20:05:57bluebrotherand the problem with the D2 is not stability but the lack in unfinished / unknown hardware stuff. One issue is the flash memory itself as that player requires doing the wear levelling in the firmware itself
20:07:01PhotoguyIf only someone could consult the company.
20:07:01PhotoguyOr have they?
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20:07:07webguest10I'm sure they tried
20:07:30webguest10But most companies don't cooperate
20:08:25webguest10My plan is to wait another year, sell my X5 and purchase some rockboxable, flash based player with 32Gb
20:08:40PhotoguyYeah, sounds like a good plan.
20:09:21webguest10The Cowon X5 is a VERY good player, but it's HDD-based and therefore quite large compared to the flash players...
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20:09:48PhotoguyI like the small size, and sturdy build of the e200
20:10:05webguest10The Sansa V2 port also looks quite interesting
20:11:45webguest10Well I have to go now. I hope I confused you ;)
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20:11:52PhotoguyThe thing is, my v1 is failing, so I want to get something soon.
20:12:57domonokyit seems a lot of the new flash target ports are waiting for a breakthrough with the storage.. :-/
20:13:33domonokyPhotoguy: if you are in the us, buy new e200v1 from frooby, they are cheap..
20:14:04PhotoguyI might do that.
20:14:19PhotoguyAnd keep mine for parts :)
20:16:53PhotoguyThe E280 is only $10 more that the E250.
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20:21:46bluebrotheris there something like LCD_BLACK for the available greyscales?
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20:33:34*bluebrother found LCD_LIGHTGRAY
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20:59:57webguest36how do i install theams
21:00:25scorche|shhave you read the manual/ goes into this...
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21:05:46PhotoguyNeed help?
21:05:49PhotoguyI can help/.
21:06:02domonokyPhotoguy: he already left..
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21:37:08bluebrotherhmm. Is there a way to invoke the menu in sudoku on the recorder?
21:37:53bluebrotherah, found it
21:40:48bluebrotheris it reasonable to #ifdef a setting in the sudoku plugin that is only present on color targets? Or is it better to simply ignore the additional byte to keep the code cleaner?
21:42:50Jabonehey, I'm trying to build this cross-compiler thing and have some problems combining gcc. I have similar results as within this post:
21:42:58linuxstbbluebrother: Which setting is that?
21:44:50bluebrotherlinuxstb: I'm currently looking at FS #8364. As that adds a setting it removed the HAVE_LCD_COLOR around the settings structure, thus adding the whole structure even on targets that don't have color
21:45:04domonokyJabone: and you did use to build the crosscompilers ?
21:45:09syn4psejabone: I got the same argument error when attempting it on 64bit ubuntu. I haven't gotten any further as I have it working on two other machines
21:46:07Jabonedomonoky: yes I tried building manually and with
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21:46:30Jaboneboth ways gives the same error about these 3 argument things
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21:47:35JaboneI have ubuntu intrepid beta. Does it have something to do with kernel libraries or so?
21:47:45BigBambiyou need extra flags
21:47:52syn4psethat's what i have, too.
21:48:35BigBambiIf 64 bit you need "CPPFLAGS=-U_FORTIFY_SOURCE -fno-stack-protector" ./"
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21:49:01bluebrotherinteresting. I have build the toolchain on F8 just fine
21:49:21BigBambithis is for ubuntu 8.10, I din't know about F8
21:49:57bluebrotherwell, the linked post says its failing on F8 due to the host gcc
21:50:32BigBambiah, I didn't read that - I just know that new ubuntu needs these additions
21:50:44BigBambisyn4pse: (run as sudo of course)
21:51:05syn4psesure :) thanks a lot, i'll give that a try when i get back to that machine
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21:55:12fmlXavierGr: actually, I also think that we shouldn't force the spaces at the beginning and at the end of the scroll padding string.
21:55:39fmlSo once again: dear developers, please commit FS #9455 :-)
21:56:12fmlXavierGr: what bin was bigger: with strncmp or the one with snprintf?
21:57:02rasherWhy add yet another setting? Can't a sensible default be picked...
21:57:22JaboneBigBambi: I'm trying now building cross compile with your additions :)
21:57:32*bluebrother still dislikes the possible user error of forgetting spacing spaces
21:57:51BigBambiJabone: I'm just repeating what others have said here :)
21:58:04Jaboneok :)
21:58:21Jabonethanks anyway
21:58:31BigBambiIt does work - I've used it on 8.10 myself, I just can't take credit :)
21:59:00Jabonedoes it read somewhere or only here?
21:59:19fmlbluebrother: there are more cases when the user can make something wrong. E.g. set both text and background color to black. Do we want to do something about it? No. And the scrolling setting is less critical.
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22:00:52bluebrotherwell, IMO we could want do something about the fg / bg issue. It's just the question how to do this best.
22:01:00 Quit ahti__ (Connection timed out)
22:01:03bluebrotherplus, someone needs to actually do it ;-)
22:02:50 Quit DataGhost (Nick collision from services.)
22:02:52fmlbluebrother: but this will make the binary bigger. It's a high priority value which shouldn't be made bigger without a real need. Really, is the fact that we don't force the string to be space padded such a bad thing?
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22:03:40rasherfml: Why does this need to be a setting? This seems a bit cowardly to me.
22:03:43allelealright, after going through other plugin source code I'm stumpped, I'm trying to use the scrollwheel of the sansa e200r for input. I defined the input and am using it as any other button would be used, but I get no response from it
22:03:48bluebrotherwhy would this make the binary bigger?
22:04:29 Quit miepchen^schlaf ()
22:04:36bluebrothercurrently you need to hold the default string and use it if the user hasn't set one. If you'd insert a space before and another after the padding string you could drop that and simply make no user string == empty string
22:04:43bluebrotherbut still get a default padding
22:05:23fmlrasher: because different users would like to have it differently! (It's always the same with settings :-) E.g. bluebrother seems to like the spaces that we have now. But I would much prefer a string with "+++" and some spaces around.
22:05:57alleleam I supposed to add anything extra to the code than just a case for the constant set to BUTTON_SCROLL_FWD or BUTTON_SCROLL_BACK?
22:07:07rasherfml: I dare say you're quite a minority (with no data to back it up, I admit).
22:07:27fmlbluebrother: I don't quite get what you mean. But then you have another drawback: you don't get exactly what you set −−> confusing
22:09:17fmlrasher: separating running items with "+++" is rather common. And I think they do it with a good reason. "+++" catches the eye, it stops your eyes from sliding along the text thus serving the purpose well. Just spaces don't do it. Which was the source of confusion for the patch author (and me as well)
22:10:14fmlrasher: I mean, look at the running line at the bottom of the screen where stock quotes are displayed (CNN & Co)
22:10:57bluebrotherfml: ok, DEFAULT_SCROLL_PADDING is handled by the settings stuff. But you still need to store that value somewhere.
22:11:15bluebrotherso I don't see a reason why using an empty value here should make the code bigger.
22:11:27domonokyallele: adding a case for the BUTTON_SCROLL_x into your button switch - case should be enough i think...
22:11:46bluebrotheryou basically move those two spaces from the settings to the snprintf call
22:11:56rasherfml: Just because it's used somewhere doesn't mean we have to add an option for everything
22:12:14rasherI think this is well into the realm of unneeded fluff that simply doesn't deserve an option
22:12:25rasherAdd a few more spaces if it's not clear with the current default, sure
22:13:02fmlrasher: sure. But would you accept to it being hard coded to "+++" with spaces? If not I'd love to have a setting for it. There are settings for less important thing IMHO, e.g. bidirectional scrolling
22:14:20Lloreanfml: On the other hand, if there's to be a separation character it'd be better if it's something that can't be in a normal string.
22:14:22rasherfml: Frankly, I think that if you want the +++, you should compile your own build.
22:14:30Llorean+++ is safe to use in a stock ticker because there isn't a stock named +++
22:16:18fmlLlorean: but there are far more strings with spaces than with +++
22:16:35Lloreanfml: Single spaces, sure.
22:16:48fmlLlorean: so from that point of view, +++ is a better separator
22:16:52LloreanNo, it's not.
22:16:58LloreanMultiple spaces is "nothing"
22:17:01Llorean+++ is "something"
22:17:12LloreanSo saying it's "better", based on your opinion, sure.
22:17:20bluebrother+++ requires you to wait longer until it has scrolled compared with " ".
22:17:23LloreanSaying it's better, based on a value call that people can have different opinions, not fine.
22:17:31fmlLlorean: yes, and this something expilicitly tells you that the string is rolling over
22:17:49rasherfml: Or it tells you "more stuff continues to roll by"
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22:17:51Lloreanfml: Because people are too stupid to recognize the start of the string?
22:17:53rasherDepending on how you look at it.
22:18:07LloreanIf I see the start of the string, I know it's repeating. If i see more characters, I think "they're part of the string"
22:18:16fmlLlorean: with spaces, you have to have a good eye to differentiate between the normal spaces and the "wrapping" spaces
22:18:19LloreanAnd possibly start wondering why my files are mistagged, if I'm "Joe Newguy"
22:18:36rasherfml: Then add a few more spaces!
22:18:47Lloreanfml: Why do you need to differentiate the spaces? The string starts over again RIGHT AFTER.
22:19:03rasherI never said the current value is perfect, maybe it should be wider (I haven't checked)
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22:19:24*Llorean thinks the current value, or possibly one only _slightly_ larger is fine, and would find any added characters or too many spaces annoying.
22:19:24rasherBut I strongly think that making it a setting is completely uncalled for
22:19:51fmlrasher: this was the first step −− just make the gap bigger. But then you'd have to wait longer for the start of the string. With +++ you see t clearly and don't have to wait long
22:20:04LloreanI'd rather a setting if it's decided we _must_ have characters (so that I can not have characters) or if someone feels it needs to be more than 20 pixels.
22:20:38*Llorean doesn't know how long it is now, but doesn't need a large gap.
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22:21:00rasherfml: you don't clearly see it.. you see *something* rolling by
22:21:49Llorean"+++" isn't a magic string that people will immediately recognize as "line ends"
22:21:53fmlrasher: yes. But would you agree that for the comprehension, it's also important (or helpful) to know "where you are"?
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22:22:11rasherI agree that some people might prefer the +++ thing or something else. But not enough that we need to add a setting just for them.
22:22:19rasherfml: which the spaces do just as well
22:22:26domonokymaybe this is a issue for RSB ? :-)
22:23:41*Llorean certainly hopes not.
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22:23:48fmlrasher: ok, I seem to be in the minority in the chat. But it's been several times that an idea that isn't accepted immediately is accepted after a while. You're just a "clique" supporting each other :-)
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22:24:00fmlNo need of RSB for iit
22:24:12Lloreanfml: Remember, Rockbox is for the developers.
22:24:21LloreanIf the "clique" of developers don't like it, it's probably gonna get rejected.
22:25:21fmlLlorean: or just not accepted. But I'll wait for more developers' opinions :-) To reject it, you also have a well discussed opinion :-)
22:25:54Lloreanfml: These days, "not accepted" is the same as rejected.
22:26:08LloreanWe're closing many more tasks, sooner, if they aren't done in an acceptable way and work on them begins to stagnate.
22:28:25fmlLlorean: I know, it's not democracy. You just have to have right friends ;-)
22:28:53LloreanNo, you just have to have an idea that's actually good by the standards set for "good"
22:29:34LloreanIf you're talking about adding another setting, and a chunk of code, you need a solid reason for it, and "something nobody's complained about in the last six years" is probably pushing it.
22:29:41*gevaerts reminds fml about the right to fork, which makes all democracy/dictatorship analogies worthless ;)
22:29:46 Quit allele ("Java user signed off")
22:29:50LloreanIt seems to suggest that the issue you're trying to solve affects a very minor segment of the userbase.
22:32:42fmlLlorean: they just don't know about it. But I won't try to persuade you anymore. If it's rejected then be it. What can I do (apart from a custom build which I don't like)
22:34:09Lloreanfml: I said people haven't complained about it. If they don't *know* about it, how can it be a problem?
22:36:25linuxstbgevaerts: Did you say that snprintf(str,n,"%s %x",str,x) failed for you?
22:37:13gevaertsYes. That was on ubuntu 8.10 I think.
22:37:30linuxstbI've noticed it being used in FS #9455
22:42:13fmllinuxstb: I also saw that and that looked a bit suspicious. But I didn't search any further.
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22:51:35*amiconn wonders whether it's worth duplicating the arm libgcc division routines, in order to put them in IRAM on PP5002
22:52:03amiconnThen it would be possible to make APE -c1000 and -c2000 usable on both PP502x and PP5002 with a dual core split
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22:58:11bluebrotherdoes configfile_load ignore unknown entry lines?
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23:03:19bluebrotherlinuxstb: do you have any more comments on FS #8364? I've ifdef-ed the remaining stuff and would like to commit (so we can close another task ;-)
23:05:00linuxstbbluebrother: What did you decide to do with the config file? Keep in the colour-only setting, or #ifdef it?
23:05:11***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
23:05:43bluebrotherI put ifdefs around so it can be a config file containing one or both values, depending on the target
23:06:37bluebrotherand I made the marker "dot" grey instead of black so it distracts less.
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23:06:59linuxstbThe only comment I have is that sudoku.c seems to be getting big, and could do with splitting. But that's not really related to that patch.
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23:13:54linuxstbamiconn: Does the ipod1g2g not have an RTC, or is it just not implemented?
23:14:19amiconnIt doesn't have a true RTC
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23:17:18linuxstbAh, because it never powers off?
23:18:06alleleI still am unable to use the scroll wheel as arguments in the buttons switch for plugins. do I need to include any other .h files besides plugin.h?
23:18:23bertriktalking about an RTC, I think the as3525's have it, but my clip doesn't show any time in the OF
23:18:58amiconnlinuxstb: The PP5002 has some "RTC" registers, but those aren't really useful
23:20:13amiconnThere are no month/year registers, and the day counter overflows rather quick (don't remember exactly, but iirc it was less than a year)
23:20:35linuxstbbertrik: The DAX is the same - there's an RTC in the SoC, but no clock in the OF.
23:20:44amiconnSo month/ year would need to be implemented in software. Also, the Menu+Play hardware reset also resets those RTC regs
23:21:03funmanbertrik: RTC is only needed for date/time ?
23:21:18bertrikfunman, yes
23:21:21domonokyallele: you should not include other (rockbox) headers into a plugin. what do you mean with "doesnt work" ? to debug it, you could just output what rb->button_get() return, when you use the wheel...
23:21:52amiconnBtw, an RTC is required for a proper VFAT implementation. All RTC-less targets violate the VFAT specs when writing
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23:22:00linuxstballele: Are you using button_get() or button_status() ?
23:22:21alleleI'm using button_status
23:22:24bertrikfunman, heard some good news about the SDRAM :)
23:22:26alleleis that my problem?
23:22:55funmanbertrik: yeah ;) now to the last obstacle before the bootloader
23:22:57alleleit compiles fine with the case for scrolling left or right, but when running the plugin there is no response
23:23:00linuxstbYes, I think so. IIRC, the wheel produces scroll events, rather than changing bits in button status.
23:23:18amiconnlinuxstb: You think right ;)
23:23:22linuxstb(there's no "press" or "release" concepts with scroll events, then just happen)
23:24:00alleleah well don't I feel silly :D
23:24:12linuxstbIt's not obvious.
23:24:56allelebutton_get() returns an integer as well, correct?
23:26:55domonokyallele: yes..
23:27:14alleleok, we'll see how it compiles then :-D
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23:39:39XavierGrwell, so what about #9455? I was sure that at one point the settings bloat argument would arise, but IMO adding more hard-coded spaces won't help much
23:40:39XavierGrpadding pixel spacing is also acceptable for me (as a setting) but making the 3 hard coded spaces to 6 won't solve a thing
23:41:24XavierGrsmall displays on DAPs suffer in that respect, you always loose focus when you looking them from afar
23:42:28XavierGriRiver (and other examples) solved that by just terminating the last scroll segment with a blank line, but of course there are many others here with the opinion that 3 spaces are enough (which aren't on other cases)
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23:43:22XavierGrIn the end it should be a setting because person A wants as few spaces as possible while person B wants more
23:44:57bluebrothergrrr. Anyone an idea how I can get this stupid mr100 into usb mode? The reboot always ends up in "Battery charge"
23:46:24rasherXavierGr: Or we pick something somewhere between what person A wants, and what person B wants, and tell them both to shut up
23:48:15XavierGrrasher: you know that this is not feasible
23:48:32XavierGrand don't forget that the first try of that patch was exactly what you are telling
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23:48:38LloreanIt's perfectly feasible.
23:48:40Lloreanit just may not be ideal.
23:48:53XavierGrI just hardcoded half the viewport as space which Llorean immediately disliked
23:49:06XavierGr(i don't blame him of course)
23:49:07LloreanXavierGr: Because that's a very, very huge amount of space.
23:49:18gevaertsbluebrother: have you tried booting first, and then pluging in?
23:49:29rasherI find it quite ideal. It might not be *just perfect* for each individual user, but you can't just go making everything an option
23:49:52XavierGrLlorean: well that seems to you a large space but depening on usage patterns, fonts, screen sizes etc it makes sence
23:50:05LloreanXavierGr: Only if you're using quite large fonts.
23:50:12*amiconn wonders what problem that patch is actually trying to solve
23:50:22LloreanOtherwise it means you have to *wait* for the front of your line to be visible again.
23:50:32XavierGramiconn: that when lines scroll forward you loose focus of start/end
23:50:36amiconnPersonally I would like a bit less space ( a single space would be good); but I'm fine with 3 as well
23:50:46rasheramiconn: in some situations, it's difficult to notice when a scrolling string restarts, apparently
23:50:48XavierGrthat's what I am talking about
23:50:54amiconnBut certainly not more... then you'd lose track of the line
23:50:57Lloreanamiconn: The theory is that people can't tell when the line ends.
23:51:15rasherXavierGr: Just because people do not agree on the ideal amount, doesn't mean we should automaticly make it a setting
23:51:25rasherOr we'd have to do this for every little damn thing
23:51:35LloreanI think considering the _very_ low number of complaints we've had, we may already have a good balance amount.
23:51:44rasherMaybe it should be an amount of pixels relative to the *height* of the font
23:51:57rasherRather than a fixed set of spaces.
23:52:33XavierGrI just wanted to avoid breaking habits of other devs/people
23:52:37Lloreanrasher: So, something like "2*height" rather than "2 spaces"
23:52:49XavierGreverything you do in the end is disliked by someone
23:53:04rasherXavierGr: Sure, but that doesn't mean we have to make it an option.
23:53:32rasherLlorean: Maybe. I honestly don't know what a good amount is (and I don't have a target to test on)
23:53:51XavierGrhonestly though, I explicitly asked about it on the task, and the general notion was that it wouldn't hurt to be an option
23:54:13rasherXavierGr: not everyone checks on every task all the time. I just noticed it today
23:54:28Lloreanrasher: I think the ideal gap is "two spaces" or possibly "three spaces" but I recognize that with very narrow spaces it can be hard to spot when you've got two instead of just one for some people, so "two heights" or "three heights" might make a lot more sense.
23:54:29rasherBut if it's more of a problem on large fonts, maybe it makes more sense to have the amount be relative to the height of the font
23:54:40bluebrothergevaerts: yep. Also tried plugging usb, then hard resetting the thing
23:54:43LloreanXavierGr: Did you post to the mailing list about it?
23:55:08XavierGrLlorean: nope, but anyway I don't blame anyone, if the final notion is to avoid the setting
23:55:45XavierGrit just feels weird, because I thought we were past the bloat-setting argument
23:56:03XavierGrof course I can always ask and see what other devs say
23:56:17rasherWhen did we move past the bloat-setting argument?
23:56:21rasherAnd for which reason
23:56:49rasherI personally still think we already have far too many settings. Not from a binsize point of view, but from a user interface one
23:57:03LloreanAnd I think both binsize and UI bloat are both valid considerations.
23:57:09LloreanBinsize may be loosened but it's certainly not gone.
23:57:15XavierGrrasher: on the task, I think Llorean, JdGordon and bluebrother was not against it
23:57:28LloreanWe can't lump everything in or one day we'll have to remove things.
23:57:30rasherXavierGr: I only speak for myself
23:57:39LloreanXavierGr: I'm not for or against it as a setting.
23:57:47XavierGrrasher: well we disagree on that, for me rockbox is settings, anything less is less appealing
23:57:57LloreanI'm just against arbitrary lengthening it beyond a small increase on what it is already.
23:58:07*amiconn thinks about those upcoming lowmem swcodec targets...
23:58:12XavierGrrasher: and IMHO that's why Rockbox is so popular, because it has numerous settings
23:58:20XavierGrsomething that no other firmware can achieve
23:58:38BigBambiForgetting binsize, the number of settings is already somewhat daunting
23:58:38LloreanXavierGr: But plenty of things are not settings, and never will be, but people want to customize.
23:58:40LloreanLike keymaps
23:58:50LloreanJust because something can be a setting doesn't mean we have to make it one.
23:58:55XavierGrLlorean: I understand your view but #9455 is about that specifically, to make it larger than the average liking

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