#rockbox 2008-11-06

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#rockbox log for 2008-11-06

00:02:47		Join planetbeing [0] (n=planetbe@67-207-128-206.slicehost.net)
00:03:14	JdGordon	is the lang order in not english .langs important?
00:03:21	amiconn	It doesn't always fail. All Player builds in the build table except 2 were built on his box
00:03:48		Join dany_21a [0] (n=dan@84-119-27-113.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at)
00:04:23	Bagder	I'll disable sh builds there for now
00:04:30	planetbeing	Could anyone refer me to someone who has familiarity with Rockbox's NAND flash driver? (ata_flash.c). I was wondering about its compatibility with Samsung's FTL systems like Whimory, etc.
00:04:59	*	mcuelenaere likes to know that too
00:06:05		Quit bmbl ("Woah!")
00:06:21	planetbeing	I'm reverse engineering some of iPhone's firmware, with an eye on porting Linux to it. I'm now able to read and write raw NAND data, but I'm wondering if there's any prior work on the Whimory FTL.
00:06:55	gevaerts	I'd be surprised if you could use ata_flash.c for help with that
00:07:19	amiconn	ata_flash.c is used by the (stalled) iFP port only.
00:07:33	planetbeing	I see.
00:07:36	mcuelenaere	planetbeing: AFAIK there are only 2 (?) FTL in Rockbox now
00:07:41	gevaerts	It's written for ifp7xx, which as far as I know uses a pnx101 chip, and it doesn't do writing yet so I assume the mapping isn't complete yet
00:07:52	amiconn	I think the only one who really knows how it works would be tomal. I've not seen him around for a long time :\
00:07:52	mcuelenaere	ata_flash.c and the TCC one
00:08:05	planetbeing	Ah. I've only started looking at it. Googling for "Whimory" led me to Rockbox (which is why I am here).
00:08:31	n1s	amiconn: making the midi plugin a codec would not enable any more optimizations but would make for a nicer user experience all over
00:09:29	rasher	JdGordon: it's not important, no
00:09:44	*	amiconn is confused by the r19022 APE performance figures on coldfire and the beast
00:10:01	rasher	JdGordon: some translators like to keep English order to help them compare, but the code doesn't care
00:10:11	n1s	LambdaCalculus37: I would be happy to take your c200 to try making midi work better on it but it would have to be with the standard disclaimer of not guaranteeing any worthwhile results
00:10:13	funman	lcd_init() calls scroll_init() calls create_thread(), what is needed for threads to run ?
00:10:52	n1s	lcd scrolling runs in a separate thread
00:10:55	planetbeing	Some of the exact strings that are here (http://130.89.160.166/rockbox/e10strings.txt) are in the iPhone firmware, which is why I was curious.
00:11:07	JdGordon	rasher: ok
00:11:15	funman	n1s: i didn't care about threads in the sansav2 bootloader (no thread_init or whatever)
00:11:52	funman	i suppose some initialisation is needed
00:11:52	mcuelenaere	planetbeing: that's probably due too they use the same Samsung SDK
00:12:01	n1s	funman: i misread your question :/
00:12:03	mcuelenaere	due too the fact that*
00:12:16		Quit tvelocity ("Αποχώρησε")
00:12:32	planetbeing	Yes.
00:12:40	*	funman hands n1s a funman-decoder
00:12:57	funman	other bootloaders call kernel_init()
00:13:24	funman	I suppose I'll have to do some work to use this function
00:13:35	planetbeing	I'm not sure whether to start reverse engineering anything above the LLD level.
00:13:49	planetbeing	Because reversing all of Samsung's SDK would not really be that fun.
00:13:54	planetbeing	And perhaps legally problematic.
00:14:55	Bagder	reverse engineering really isn't that problematic in most areas
00:15:34	funman	I used this diff http://paste.ubuntu.com/68108/ to understand where the problem came from, do you think something cleaner could be useful in the UIE() ? (i believe undefined instruction exception)
00:16:00	planetbeing	Right, except I think they're trying to sell the exact thing that I would publish equivalent source code to, so.
00:16:38		Quit BigBambi (Read error: 148 (No route to host))
00:16:55		Quit robin0800 (Connection timed out)
00:17:21	planetbeing	Though it would really be nice, or else any sort of dual-booting between iPhone OS and Linux would be out. Is there any interest in the Rockbox community that this be done? Is there anyone willing to work on this together?
00:17:24	Bagder	planetbeing: still you're entitled to do so
00:17:46	Bagder	planetbeing: rockbox is an OS of its own
00:17:47		Quit dany_21a_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:17:58	Bagder	we don't run linux on devices, we run rockbox on tem
00:18:01	Bagder	them
00:18:04	planetbeing	I understand that.
00:18:13	funman	in fact i was hoping to not need threads in the bootloader
00:18:23	planetbeing	But if you wanted to read/write to Samsung FTLs, this would still be useful as a piece.
00:18:26	Bagder	but there might be someone interested in running rockbox on an iphone or ipod touch
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00:19:14	soap	linuxstb, re: "Is there a reason you keep that [rockbox-themes.cleansoap.org] mirror active?" - Can I plea historical momentum?
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00:20:15	funman	iiuc one hardware timer is used by kernel.c 's tick_start() (defined in specific ports) and another one by timer.c ?
00:20:29	amiconn	funman: UIE is short for "unexpected interrupt or exception"
00:20:42	soap	Honestly, ever since I gave the space to redbreva, I haven't really though twice about it. I do agree the consequences of its existence are probably undesirable, but I never discussed the removal of it with anyone, so I didn't [remove it].
00:20:51	funman	amiconn: ok that make more sense ^^
00:23:07		Join swimmer [0] (i=swimmer@xs7.xs4all.nl)
00:23:11	soap	should I HTTP _or_ frame redirect it to the WPS gallery?
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00:57:07	saratoga	soap: I would redirect, but you could also look into making it so that google doesn't index the website too
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01:15:44	soap	so (web ignorant) - do I want HTTP or frame style redirect?
01:23:19	soap	You know what - I'm busy as a bee tonight - I'll put a nice explanation and redirect on as many of the deep-linked pages as I see in my server logs, and make it all pretty - but not tonight. Tomorrow, Friday at the latest.
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01:24:17	soap	If someone thinks I should pull the content before that point in time - that is easy and I will take such advice (if it comes) under serious consideration. Just highlight me and I'll catch ya. Otherwise, night.
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01:30:22	rasher	soap: I think a http redirect would be most clean, when considering search engines etc
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03:11:24	JdGordon_	:( my beast froze during playbck twice today already
03:11:42	JdGordon_	always in the last 2 sec of the song
03:13:17	JdGordon_	oh poo! now it thinks the batt is flat
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03:31:10	DerPapst	Night all :)
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08:04:23	Owner	I have a question about Rockbox and I figured you guys could help me out
08:04:56	B4gder	ask away
08:05:14	Owner	I have a Sandisk and I can navigate and play songs from my MicroSD and from my internal memory
08:05:32	Owner	yet once I figured out how to combine the 2 so I could play songs from both in a playlist...
08:05:34	Owner	how do I do that
08:06:36	B4gder	I believe the microsd appears as a "fake" dir in the root dir, as shown by the dir browser
08:06:42	massiveH	are you creating the playlist on the sansa, or on your PC?
08:06:58	Owner	I did it through my PC with window media player
08:07:33	massiveH	create it on the player and it will work fine, I don't know how it saves the SD location on the playlist
08:07:52	massiveH	but it appears rockbox's handling of the SD location and your media player's is differnet
08:08:20	Owner	well I combined the playlists once so I could listen to all of my music on shuffle mode once
08:08:28	Owner	so I know it's possible
08:08:45	Owner	but as of now I can either chose to shuffle through all my internal memory of 300 songs
08:08:59	Owner	or go shuffle through my SD of like 1000
08:09:13	massiveH	you can select the playlist and hit "insert" and it will combine them
08:09:18	massiveH	then you could save that list out...
08:09:45	massiveH	(press and hold select for playlist options)
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08:12:15	Owner	ok reset because I'm not really using a playlist...let me show you the steps I go through
08:12:36		Part mrkiko
08:12:56	Owner	turn on -> database -> all tracks -> play
08:13:03	Owner	that gives me the shuffle for my internal memory
08:13:09	Owner	and then for my micro sd
08:13:25	*	massiveH does not use database mode, and does not know how playlist handling differs from file tree mode
08:13:33	Owner	turn on -> files -> micro sd -chose song
08:13:43	Owner	then I shuffle through all my songs on micro sd
08:13:55	Owner	any way to shuffle through both at once?
08:14:40	Tuplanolla	if the songs are in the database they will be in the whole shuffle list
08:15:09	Owner	but the only songs in the database are the ones in the internal memory
08:15:14	Tuplanolla	put the card in, then initialize the database
08:15:18	Owner	how do I put my micro sd songs in the database
08:15:29	Owner	how do I initalize the database?
08:16:10	Tuplanolla	settings - general settings - database - initialize now
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08:16:40	Owner	k trying that
08:18:20	Owner	YOU ARE AMAZING
08:18:21	Owner	!!!!
08:19:06	amiconn	You don't need the database if you just want to shuffle all songs on the device
08:19:15	Owner	ya
08:19:20	Owner	Ok thanks a lot guys
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10:01:46	JdGordon	is anyone else having playback issues on the beast?
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11:16:59	n1s	JdGordon: I have not noticed any probelms
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11:19:07	*	n1s grumbles a bit about accidentally booting into the OF and not having a paperclip or similar handy :(
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11:24:54	*	Unhelpful seconds n1s
11:25:47	Unhelpful	if you bump the power button while beast is locked, it turns on, and (assuming you've installed rockbox dual-boot), boots the OF, which lets you know it's locked, then suspends itself
11:28:59	n1s	and then you're stuck :/
11:31:41	Unhelpful	right. i know i've seen hold-windows-key-for-OF as a proposed fix, is there a reason it has to be hold key?
11:32:19	Unhelpful	JdGordon: i don't use it myself, but i vaguely recall somebody saying that using voice caused some playback issues
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11:43:24	n1s	Unhelpful: he hold switch is a straight gpio pin so it's easy to check the buttons are harder, we would basically need to start the rockbox bootloader unconditionally and check for buttons and branch back to the OF
11:44:19	JdGordon	Unhelpful: im prety sure ive gt voice disabled on it
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11:44:31	JdGordon	very annoying when it decides to lock up
11:44:33	Unhelpful	guh. i figured there had to be a reason. we really need the whole of the RB bootloader to be able to read the buttons?
11:45:18	kugel	I don't think so
11:45:36	Unhelpful	JdGordon: lock up how? mine hasn't had trouble with audio since the first week or two after PCM support landed in svn, when sometime garbled static would come out... especially if you did anything awful like try to use a plugin.
11:46:22	JdGordon	its now frozen 3 times in 2 days with 2s left of a track
11:46:51	JdGordon	then the batt goes dead, so it might be related to the batt instead of rockbox
11:47:01	JdGordon	duno why im getting such shit runtime from it now though
11:47:05	Unhelpful	hrm.
11:47:26	JdGordon	1-2 hours only
11:48:15	Unhelpful	that is also generally worse than my experience :/
11:48:47	JdGordon	i did a batt bench a while ag and got 6h or something, so something has gone totally fubar
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11:59:14	n1s	Unhelpful: currently we patch in a little assembler in the OF start basically checking a bit in a gpio regiser to see if we should boot the OF, checking for the keypad buttons is a bit more complex, but sure we don't _need_ the full bootloader but i think that would be the easiest way to do it
11:59:54	n1s	JdGordon: maybe the low battery is not enough to spin up the disk to rebuffer or something?
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12:00:19	JdGordon	yeah, maybe
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12:07:14	n1s	I'm not sure if buffering handles a failed spinup, saving settings on shutdown does...
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12:10:11	Zagor	B4gder: so should make zip build or not? is the partial build zip something that is occuring, or is it more of a "what if" scenario?
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12:52:48	LinusN	Zagor: so it does a complete dependency check when i type "make zip"?
12:53:16	Zagor	yes, that's what I added yesterday
12:53:36	LinusN	i always build first and then "make zip"
12:53:52	LinusN	sounds like a pain on cygwin
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12:55:57	robin0800	just tried to save as a patch off the patch traker abd it saved as html is this a firefox problem or has patch tracker changed?
12:56:01	Zagor	the error messages you get from "make zip" without a preceding "make" are very confusing.
12:56:17	LinusN	Zagor: i can imagine that
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12:57:13	Zagor	robin0800: I get text/plain in fireforx
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13:00:43	robin0800	yes my fault firfox must have had somthing different than plain text set in firefox its ok now
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13:25:31	B4gder	Zagor: it's not a big issue, but I don't like that kind of combined targets in make when you could easily just "make all zip" if you wanted to do both
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13:31:21	Zagor	B4gder: I can sympathise with that
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13:37:08	LinusN	hmmm, i did "make zip" twice, and it linked the codecs both times. i thought that was fixed?
13:38:08	LinusN	this was a sim build
13:38:36	LinusN	and why does it remove apps/codecs/codec_crt0.o?
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13:40:49	Zagor	that's a make oddity I haven't quite nailed yet. make removes "intermediate files" on its' own initiative.
13:41:57	Zagor	and the answer why it was linked twice, is precisely because make removed codec_crt0.o...
13:42:35	LinusN	i see
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14:18:27	Zagor	we have both MEMSIZE and MEMORYSIZE defined...
14:19:11	Zagor	sorry, MEM and MEMORYSIZE. is there supposed to be a difference?
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14:19:27	Zagor	from config.h: #if ((defined(MEMORYSIZE) && (MEMORYSIZE > 8)) \|\| MEM > 8)
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14:36:57	B4gder	J-23: http://cool.haxx.se/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/rockbox-cvs
14:37:08	J-23	B4gder: CVS?
14:37:19	B4gder	no rockbox-cvs
14:37:35	J-23	why didn't you rename it to rockbox-svn when switching to SVN? :D
14:38:34	gevaerts	Why do all that work?
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15:05:47	n1s	Strife89: well, IMHO the solution is not to drop more instruments
15:06:10	*	n1s wonders if the as3514 in a sansa v1 can output in 22kHz
15:06:24	Strife89	n1s: I was just throwing that out there.
15:08:03	Strife89	What about patchsets? Could lower quality patches lighten the CPU load significantly?
15:08:15	n1s	you can play with it yourself if you want by dropping MAX_VOICES in midiutil.h
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15:08:55	*	Strife89 might try dropping one or two.
15:09:43	n1s	Finding other patchsets is far from easy from what i understand, there's basically the one we use and the one commonly used in timidity
15:10:16	*	Strife89 seems to remember a patchset that's 10 MB in total size.
15:10:18	n1s	but if you find any low quality but acceptable ones feel free to tell me
15:10:54	Strife89	I think I used it for a Timidity implementation for my Palm.
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15:14:06	Strife89	n1s: http://yoyofr92.free.fr/Timidity/files/timidity-std.zip
15:14:17	Strife89	n1s: I think that's the one.
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15:17:20	n1s	then there's the problem that the patchset cfg parser is terrible and seems to basically have been built around the patchset we use...
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15:53:29	n1s	hmm, turning the midi plugin into a codec would require 44.1kHz playback (or resampling to 44.1) which will make it slower on any target that can do 22kHz
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15:56:42	LambdaCalculus37	n1s: Sounds like PP and Coldfire targets will end up with even slower MIDI playback.
15:57:43	n1s	LambdaCalculus37: most pp plaers are stuck with 44kHz anyway so it will not make much difference to them but the ones that have 22kHz will be slower if this is done...
15:57:56	*	Strife89 prefers speed.
15:58:09	n1s	unless someone fixes the playback system to handle different sample rates
15:59:02	n1s	Strife89: yes in this case more speed means better functionality but also playing stuff in a plugin is a hack IMHO
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16:01:39	LambdaCalculus37	Which is why a plugin patch like FS #8806 needs to be rewritten.
16:02:31	*	Strife89 badly hopes it gets rewritten......
16:02:43	LambdaCalculus37	Strife89: Ask Mr. Someone to do it. ;)
16:02:55	Strife89	:)
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16:03:07	n1s	so the dilemma in this case is a plugin that is next to useless (imho) because it is a plugin or a codec that is next to useless because it will be even slower...
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16:04:17	n1s	...but otoh, if our resampler is very fast it might be faster to play at 22kHz and upsample than playing the midi at 44.1 kHz, it will however sound worse
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16:09:30	LambdaCalculus37	n1s: I think fixing the playback system to handle different sample rates is a task for Mr. Somone as well.
16:10:22	n1s	yes, his list getting long...
16:12:22	LambdaCalculus37	n1s: I modified the midiplay plugin information to reflect the requirement of cleaning up the playback system.
16:12:26	funman	hm
16:12:49	funman	init_thread must be called before lcd_init() because of the creation of scrolling thread
16:12:59	n1s	LambdaCalculus37: i wouldn't call it a requirement as it is pretty useless on most targets right now anyway
16:13:09	funman	and for init_threads' THREAD_PANICF to have an effect, lcd should be active before it is called
16:13:20	funman	do i miss something ?
16:14:03	LambdaCalculus37	n1s: Rewrote it a little to be less specific.
16:15:14	n1s	but it would be a nice feature anyway and would alleviate the need for a better resampler in some cases
16:15:20	funman	current clip bootloader doesn't show anything on the screen if i comment the call to storage_init();
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16:16:07	funman	hm .. my bad ..
16:19:59	amiconn	n1s: PP target aren't stuck with 44kHz at all
16:20:29	n1s	amiconn: i mean the ones that have no support for 22kHz (in rockbox)
16:20:52	n1s	which IIUC is all of them except h10 and a few ipods
16:21:46	n1s	that's why i said "most pp plaers"
16:25:56	LambdaCalculus37	n1s: Based on older PP SoC's, perchance? (PP5002, PP5020, etc...)
16:26:38	n1s	LambdaCalculus37: again IIUC it is basically a question of if the hw can do it and if it is implemented in the dac driver
16:26:57	*	LambdaCalculus37 notices that he can't view HW info on the Gigabeat F debug menu... strange!
16:27:40	n1s	amiconn: do you not think turning the midi player into a codec would be a Good Thing?
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16:39:25	funman	hm .. now i don't get display anymore as well .. and i tested a clean tree before committing ... O:
16:41:21	IudeX	So u bricked your clip or not
16:41:23	IudeX	?
16:41:33	funman	no, i still have the dual boot of course
16:41:51	funman	but something wrong happens in kernel_init()
16:43:20	funman	* Initialize threading API. This assumes interrupts are not yet enabled. On
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17:19:42	amiconn	n1s: As long as the midiplayer performs as poor as it currently does, I think it's not worth the effort
17:20:18	amiconn	Integrating it into buffering will be rather hard
17:23:50	amiconn	n1s: Making the other PP targets support other sample frequencies will be way easier than that (it's in fact not hard at all, it just needs to be done)
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17:35:34	LambdaCalculus37	amiconn: Even if midiplayer is performing poorly at the moment, there's always room for improvement. But yes, in going over the code for it, it will be a challenge to integrating it into buffering.
17:36:18	n1s	amiconn: as long as we have it as a plugin, that is probably the easiest way to gain performance on those targets
17:38:18	n1s	also, any ideas on how to tackle the performance issues?
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17:42:45	n1s	In order to integrate this into buffering we will need some way for the codec to alloc memory in the buffer to keep the patches in
17:43:41	Llorean	Wouldn't codec-izing it also be helpful in the sense of helping to define the constraints people attempting to improve performance would have to be working in?
17:44:41	n1s	well, no one has been trying to improve the performance since i gave it ago last time which was about a year ago...
17:45:54	n1s	s/ago/a go/
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17:56:14	amiconn	Most iPods cannot support 22kHz though. Either 8kHz, or 32kHz and the higher standard frequencies
17:56:45	amiconn	iPod Video can support any sample frequency (when implemented..)
17:57:29	LambdaCalculus37	amiconn: By "most", I figure you mean 1st-3rd gen, 4th, and mini?
17:57:58	*	LambdaCalculus37 would figure the nano would be in the same boat as the video, since the hardware is very similar
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17:59:25	Llorean	LambdaCalculus37: They do have a different DAC though. I'd assume it'd be an aspect of that, though I'm not sure.
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18:52:43	LambdaCalculus37	I think there's something wrong with rockboxdev.sh; I just reinstalled my build environment on my Mac when the MIPS target was added to SVN, and I've just noticed that sh-elf-ld is missing from /usr/local/sh-elf/bin. Now I can't build any builds for the Archos targets.
18:54:18	LambdaCalculus37	Any ideas why this is so?
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19:06:17	n1s	LambdaCalculus37: i ran it a few days ago to build a complete toolchain for sh, arm and m68k and it worked just fine
19:06:30	n1s	on ubuntu though
19:06:52	n1s	is it just ld that is missing or all of binutils?
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19:20:31	amiconn	Llorean, n1s: The DAC is what determines these capabilities. The Nano has a different DAC than the Video. I didn't check what sample rates are possible on the Nano
19:21:42	n1s	amiconn: I thought that the clock sources had to be right too, isn't that of any concern?
19:22:15	amiconn	The audio codec is i2s clock master in the ipods
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19:23:37	n1s	ok
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19:24:17	amiconn	I already looked into the sample rate setup for ipod video, but I have no device to test it on,
19:25:12	n1s	amiconn: the midi player does 4 multiplies for each active voice for each sample pair so that is ~2.8 million multiplies per second in 44.1 kHz and i guess that's what's killing the armv4's
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19:25:36	amiconn	What kind of multiplies?
19:26:23	n1s	they are all int * int so i guess that's a signed 32 bit
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19:27:13	LambdaCalculus37	n1s: Just sh-elf-ld
19:27:17	n1s	although one could be done as unsigned char * int would that help?
19:27:52	n1s	LambdaCalculus37: weird, also gcc's libs shouldn't have linked ok if that was missing when you built it
19:28:13	amiconn	synth.c?
19:28:33	n1s	yes the loop in synthVoice
19:28:45	LambdaCalculus37	n1s: That's what I was wondering, too. And it's a little annoying trying to build for the JBRv1 and having it error out when it begins compiling the plugins.
19:28:58	n1s	pan is between 0 and 127 so it could be a shorter type
19:32:31	n1s	amiconn: another way to help that loop a little is create separate loops and select the right one on function entry for some of the conditionals but i think that is kind of messy
19:33:43	*	amiconn wonders what this s1 << 9, s2 >> 7 shifting magic is meant for
19:34:28	amiconn	Ah, combining the samples
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19:45:47	*	amiconn figured out how to safely re-add the 1.5-cycles (average) optimisation to the armv4 divison, and found another unnecessary instruction while doing this
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19:55:48	planetbeing	Does anyone here know the progress of the Meizu port?
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19:58:41	gevaerts	planetbeing: the forum thread is up to date
20:00
20:00:32	planetbeing	Ah.
20:01:02	planetbeing	They have the same FTL driver as I need, so I'm hoping to either snipe some code from them or work together with them on the FTL stuff.
20:01:37	gevaerts	Ah, ok. As far as I know there is no FTL code yet
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20:04:03	planetbeing	Yeah.
20:04:11	planetbeing	There's this thread:
20:04:13	planetbeing	http://www.meizume.com/rockbox/5567-rockbox-project-m6-36.html
20:04:43	planetbeing	Apparently, just a day ago they were trying to fish some specs out of some sketchy person.
20:04:59	gevaerts	Maybe that will get something, but I'm not too hopeful
20:05:18	Bagder	some of those meizume guys have some pretty interesting knowledge
20:05:33	planetbeing	What do you mean? ==P
20:05:48	planetbeing	Yeah, well, they're in China and that's leak central.
20:06:01	Bagder	exactly
20:06:17	Bagder	quite clearly some of them are insiders or have inside connections
20:06:34	kugel	bertrik: I got a microsd now
20:06:36	planetbeing	That makes me kind of nervous from a legal perspective though.
20:07:18	planetbeing	Because ideally the resulting source code has to be clean.
20:07:45	Bagder	right, but there's always going to be gray areas when you get info from people with nicknames on the net
20:08:14	Bagder	we too make an effort to do things the legal way
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20:19:56	denes_	planetbeing: why are you interested in the samsung ftl? I am slowly but surely reverse enginereeing it.
20:22:28	planetbeing	Hah!
20:22:30	planetbeing	I just PM'ed you. =P
20:22:39	planetbeing	On that meizume forum.
20:22:48	planetbeing	I'm working on the same stuff for the iPhone.
20:22:58	planetbeing	We have pretty much those same Whimory strings.
20:23:07	denes_	gevaerts: yes, I don't think samsung will divulge the specifics of the alorithm. but let us not underestimate the chinese support :)
20:23:29	planetbeing	I'm making a raw dump of iPhone NAND as we speak, actually.
20:23:57	planetbeing	I only reversed the LLD, as they call it, in Samsung nonmenclature, but that's sufficient to give me raw reads.
20:24:26	denes_	planetbeing: raw reads work on the meizu also
20:24:39	planetbeing	Cool.
20:24:51	planetbeing	I was thinking we could work together on reversing it.
20:24:57	denes_	planetbeing: I am slowly reverse engineereing the VFL_Init, FTL_Init functions - these are done, just a few mallocs
20:24:59	planetbeing	Since it's so big.
20:25:04	planetbeing	Really?
20:25:05	planetbeing	Wow.
20:25:16	denes_	planetbeing: then I have reverse engineered the vfl_open hopefully
20:25:32	planetbeing	Any idea how they're storing the BBT yet?
20:25:34	denes_	planetbeing: now it's the ftl_open's turn - that's more difficult
20:25:42	denes_	planetbeing: what is "bbt"?
20:25:47	planetbeing	Bad Block Table.
20:25:52	planetbeing	I've got a VFL_ReadBBT function.
20:26:06	denes_	planetbeing: cool, I don't have such a thing :\|
20:26:20	planetbeing	Hmm.
20:26:25	planetbeing	Let me find where it's called.
20:26:27	denes_	planetbeing: it's not entirely sure, that the iphone and this meizu uses the exact same algorithm
20:26:42	planetbeing	That's true.
20:26:42	denes_	planetbeing: just my rough guess, from thesame name (whimory)
20:27:12	planetbeing	iPhone has fewer strings in general than a strings dump that I've seen.
20:27:53	denes_	planetbeing: so to rev.eng. FTL_open i will have to first reverse engineer vfl_read, and the raw nand reader (I only looked at some tricks init, not the whole stuff, i.e. what parameter does execlty what, etc.)
20:27:56	planetbeing	I've tried reading whatever public docs Samsung has on this stuff; they're likely to use close to the same thing for everything.
20:28:27	planetbeing	I thought you already had the raw NAND reader?
20:28:34	denes_	planetbeing: after FTL_open (and vfl:read) only ftl_read is left, and it should be done - read only that is of course
20:28:48	planetbeing	Hah, yeah.
20:28:50	denes_	planetbeing: i have the raw nand reader, but only a small part is from reverse engineereing
20:28:56	planetbeing	Ah.
20:29:08	planetbeing	All of mine is from reverse engineering, heh.
20:29:30	planetbeing	Mine works by init'ing the "FIL", which boils down to a table of function pointers.
20:29:41	planetbeing	Then later functions, like VFL_Read, calls functions from that function table.
20:29:48	denes_	planetbeing: some things are not clear, like the meizu seems to claim there are 4 banks, when there is only two chips in the package - so that's why I need the specifics from the their raw nand reader
20:30:02	denes_	planetbeing: yes, exactly
20:30:30	denes_	planetbeing: so have you found the nand init part, when it calculates the number of blocks, banks, user sectors, etc. ?
20:30:42	planetbeing	Yeah.
20:30:50	planetbeing	I've reversed that.
20:30:56	planetbeing	It just looks them up from a table.
20:30:59	planetbeing	It reads a NAND ID.
20:31:04	planetbeing	And looks up the geometry.
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20:31:17	planetbeing	Well.
20:31:22	planetbeing	The number of banks is different.
20:31:35	planetbeing	There are apparently a total of 8 banks the hardware can access.
20:31:36	denes_	planetbeing: aren't the number of banks double of the real number?
20:31:44	planetbeing	And it probes each.
20:31:49	denes_	planetbeing: i see
20:31:52	planetbeing	And tries to read an ID from each bank.
20:31:58	denes_	planetbeing: yes, same thing in the meizu
20:32:10	planetbeing	And it just counts up the good matches.
20:32:13	planetbeing	And yeah.
20:32:19	denes_	planetbeing: but then it multiplies the bank number by two if it is less then or equal to 2 ...
20:32:20	planetbeing	iPhone has, if I remember correctly...
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20:32:35	planetbeing	Two chips on the iPod touch and one on the iPhone.
20:32:39	planetbeing	Really?
20:32:44	planetbeing	Mine doesn't have code like that.
20:32:55	denes_	planetbeing: seem so so. what is the chip model number?
20:33:30	planetbeing	planetbeing/iphonelinux/tree/master/trunk/openiboot/nand.c">http://github.com/planetbeing/iphonelinux/tree/master/trunk/openiboot/nand.c
20:33:39	planetbeing	Look starting from line 40
20:34:01	planetbeing	The 4, 2, 4, 2 things appear to be clock settings.
20:34:31	planetbeing	planetbeing/iphonelinux/tree/master/trunk/openiboot/includes/nand.h">http://github.com/planetbeing/iphonelinux/tree/master/trunk/openiboot/includes/nand.h is the header
20:37:45	planetbeing	Not sure if the isBadBlock thing is correctly labeled.
20:38:14	planetbeing	Maybe it's better labeled isPageErased or something.
20:39:07	denes_	planetbeing: now your nand descriptor table is a bit different than the meizu
20:39:33	denes_	planetbeing: the first four is the same
20:39:55	planetbeing	The LLD is probably going to be where most of the differences are.
20:39:59	denes_	planetbeing: but then the other settings on the meizu are boolean
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20:40:19	planetbeing	The core stuff ought to be pretty much the same.
20:40:53	denes_	planetbeing: anyhow, on the meizu the first four bytes of the last page on the 0. block should contain the WRM_SIGNATURE
20:41:08	denes_	planetbeing: 06 05 0f 4d
20:41:20	planetbeing	on bank 0?
20:41:28	denes_	planetbeing: yes
20:41:34	planetbeing	let me check
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20:42:52	planetbeing	Hmm.
20:42:54	planetbeing	09000000 44 45 56 49 43 45 49 4e 46 4f 42 42 54 00 00 00 \|DEVICEINFOBBT...\|
20:43:04	denes_	planetbeing: now it can happen that there are some block reserved for something else
20:43:33	denes_	planetbeing: there isn't on the meizu, but there is code to skip those blocksa
20:43:36	planetbeing	I've seen this DEVICEINFOBBT string inside iBoot (the thing I'm reversing).
20:43:43	planetbeing	Hmm.
20:44:00	denes_	planetbeing: so look at the next block, the next, etc. until you find the one ... i don't have a better idea
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20:45:40	denes_	planetbeing: have you seen this: http://code.google.com/p/powerdevice/source/browse/trunk/EBOOT_s3c2443/drivers/block/disk.c?spec=svn76&r=76
20:46:10	planetbeing	Yeah.
20:46:12	planetbeing	I saw that.
20:46:18	planetbeing	He obviously has some code for it. =P
20:46:20	denes_	planetbeing: BLK_Init is how whimory is initialized. it's the same on the meizu. wmr_signature I have found to be 06 05 0f 4d
20:46:46	planetbeing	I've the same thing up to line 81
20:46:53	denes_	planetbeing: and the signature is on the last page of the first block (after the reserved blocks) imho
20:47:21	denes_	planetbeing: have you reverse engineered the buffer management?
20:48:03	planetbeing	denes_: Not really. I recognized it as the buffer management code and left it alone.
20:48:21	planetbeing	let me trace back from where it displays "[WMR:ERR] no signature or no production format"
20:48:22	denes_	planetbeing: anyhow, maybe it's not the last page. so you could search for all pages which contain that signature in the first 4 bytes
20:48:27	planetbeing	And see where mine is.
20:48:31	planetbeing	and if it's the same sig.
20:48:36	denes_	planetbeing: okay
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20:52:37	planetbeing	Code calls stuff I haven't reversed yet, but it references the DEVICEINFOBBT string.
20:53:13	stsquad	What filesystem does the iPod use if not FAT32? My Linux box seems to have failed to identify it in disk mode
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20:54:27	kugel	stsquad: if you're running rockbox, it's fat
20:55:01	kugel	stsquad: fat is called vfat in most cases under linux, and you may have to mount it manually
20:55:07	stsquad	I've just got this iPod and haven't installed RockBox on it yet. But disk-mode doesn't come up
20:55:27	denes_	planetbeing: http://www.pastebin.ca/1247206 here is all the info I have gathered. it's a bit messy, and perhaps not entirely correct.
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20:56:03	kugel	stsquad: if it's an ipod formatted on a apple computer it has a different filesystem.
20:56:24	planetbeing	denes_: awesome!
20:56:36	stsquad	kugel: I have no idea, it looks factory fresh so I assume it may be apple fs formated
20:56:39	denes_	planetbeing: then it could be a bit different from the meizu ftl. but I would try to find the page with WRM_SIGNATURE , or something similar to WMR_SIGNATURE (I mean the last digits could be different perhaps)
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20:57:47	kugel	you can format it to fat32 using itunes under windows or following the instruction on http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/IpodConversionToFAT32
20:58:01	kugel	which gen ipod is it?
20:59:01	stsquad	kugel: 5th Gen Video iPod
20:59:14	stsquad	Hmmm, I have neither windows or Mac handy
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20:59:31	kugel	there's instructions to do it with linux
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20:59:55	denes_	planetbeing: FTL_Init and VFL_Init just malloc some stuff (I didn't write it there, only the sizes of the structures)
21:00
21:00:44	*	stsquad digs around to find what device node Linux has randomly assigned
21:02:21	planetbeing	ah
21:04:52	planetbeing	so the magic is just VFL_Read mostly, I suppose.
21:05:15	denes_	planetbeing: no, FTL_read I am afraid
21:05:21	denes_	planetbeing: FTL_read calls VFL_read
21:05:29	denes_	planetbeing: even FTL_Open calls VFL_read
21:05:37	planetbeing	that's what i meant
21:05:44	denes_	planetbeing: okay :)
21:06:04	planetbeing	I'm staring at the thing in IDA right now. =P
21:06:06	planetbeing	It's not pretty. =P
21:06:16		Quit tyfoo (Connection timed out)
21:06:29	denes_	planetbeing: if you found the WMR_SIGNATURE (if it's the same) that would be a breakthrough imho
21:06:40	denes_	planetbeing: but maybe it's different
21:06:54	denes_	planetbeing: you need to rev.eng. BLK_Init
21:06:58	planetbeing	Yeah.
21:07:08	planetbeing	I'd need to finish that.
21:07:20	planetbeing	All right, I'll work on that right now.
21:07:38	amiconn	hah!
21:07:38	denes_	planetbeing: anyhow, I am of course interested in your findings
21:07:52	*	amiconn found another optimisation for armv4 division
21:08:03	planetbeing	Do you hang out here often?
21:08:24	denes_	planetbeing: yes, but you can send email too (i send my address in private)
21:08:32	amiconn	The div-by-power-of-2 uses an iterative 'clz', but there can only be a single bit set, so I can adapt the ffs-arm code
21:13:39	funman	clz?
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21:14:43	planetbeing	count zeros or something.
21:15:01	planetbeing	count leading zeros
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21:17:13	funman	ah it's an armv5 instruction
21:17:30	amiconn	Yes, so armv4 has to emulate it somehow
21:18:07	denes_	everybody is using ida for disassembly. i am using objdump :) maybe ida is more powerful...
21:18:27	amiconn	The current solution in udiv32_armv4.S (copied from libgcc code; lines 65..83) needs 13 instructions (13 cycles)
21:19:07		Quit Thundercloud (Remote closed the connection)
21:19:22	amiconn	Using the ffs() code instead only needs 5 instructions (7 cycles) and a lookup table
21:19:55	planetbeing	denes_: I used to use objdump too (well, otool actually). Once you're used to IDA, it makes you a lot more efficient.
21:20:09	amiconn	This is possible here because it's known that only a single bit is set. so clz(val) = 31 - ffs(val)
21:20:11	planetbeing	denes_: All my BUF_GETs are called with 0x10000000 as the only arg. =P
21:20:25	planetbeing	BUF_Get*
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21:23:17	denes_	planetbeing: that probably just means BUF_MAIN_AND_SPARE, like in the powerdevice BLK_Init code
21:23:50	planetbeing	denes_: Would make perfect sense.
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21:51:57	bertrik	kugel, nice
21:52:29	bertrik	kugel, maybe I can whip up something this weekend to read the mystery i2c bus on the fuze
21:53:03	bertrik	I couldn't really find much references to the i2c code, maybe it's used for the buttons, or maybe for the radio
21:53:39	saratoga	n1s: regarding midi optimization on armv4, you get one cycle of pipeline stall for each 8 bits in the multiplier
21:54:01	saratoga	if you can prescale some of your values, you can often save CPU time
21:54:54	amiconn	This only applies to arm < v6 afaik
21:55:30	saratoga	most of the ARMv5 chips have single cycle muls too, though maybe not all
21:55:56	amiconn	(which most of our arm targets are though, and the one that is v6 doesn't suffer from performance problems)
21:57:10	amiconn	Multiply instructions on arm1136 are single cycle, but only with proper pipelining (latency is several cycles)
21:57:35	amiconn	Proper pipelining seems to be rather important on armv6
21:57:56	*	amiconn already knows that kind of pipeline interlocks from the SH1
21:59:03		Quit LambdaCalculus37 ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
21:59:48	bertrik	kugel, looking at the fuze disassembly on abi it looks like there are a lot of traces going to the front part of the player (with the buttons, leds, etc.). If it were done over i2c, I would expect a lot less traces.
22:00
22:00:05	amiconn	Even ldmia and stmia with multiple registers are single cycle, if the registers aren't (re)used too early. The loads and stores then effectively happen in the background
22:00:24		Quit Strife89 ("Well, I've got to get ready for another round of Chicago tonight. Wish the crew well if you want. ;)")
22:00:39	saratoga	amiconn: thats pretty neat
22:00:49	saratoga	i need to read about the newer ARM cores
22:01:06	amiconn	Yup. The internal data paths are 64 bit, so it can load/store 2 regs per cycle to/from the cache
22:01:46		Join Thundercloud [0] (n=thunderc@cpc1-hem18-0-0-cust660.lutn.cable.ntl.com)
22:02:13	*	amiconn tried to exploit these features in the APE filters as far as possible
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22:06:43	planetbeing	denes_: Mine scans each page of the first block, looking at the first four bytes in each page, looking for this magic: 0x43303033
22:07:00	planetbeing	denes_: If the magic is not present in any page of the first block, it gives that WMR signature error.
22:07:14	funman	bertrik: kugel, fdinel told me he found the code for the buttons in the fuze but it's rather complex. appears to use interrupts, just like the e200v1
22:09:06	bertrik	ok thanks, IIRC I noticed some GPIOs set up for interrupt too
22:09:53	bertrik	so that increases the chance for the GPIO i2c bus to be there to control the fm chip
22:10:24	bertrik	or it could be more stray driver code ...
22:11:40	bertrik	getting the radio to work could be a quick hack to get "first sound" on a sansa v2 :)
22:12:08	denes_	planetbeing: interesting. than it's different from the meizu...
22:13:26	saratoga	amiconn: looking at the arm9tdmi datasheet, the load time is a single cycle per word, both for single and multiple loads
22:13:39	saratoga	is there any advantage to doing ldm aside from reduced code size?
22:14:47	amiconn	No. The reduced code size can help indirectly though (better cache usage)
22:15:36	planetbeing	denes_: It also seems to use a different ECC format for those pages.
22:16:40	amiconn	And of course another advantage is to not have different code than for arm7tdmi (where ldm is n+2 cycles while ldr needs 3 cycles, hence loading n words individually would need 3*n cycles), and arm11 (where ldm is one single cycle vs. n cycles for individual loads)
22:17:11	denes_	planetbeing: I haven't looked at the ECC myself
22:17:28	denes_	planetbeing: I see you have coded that too. nice work btw.
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22:23:07	planetbeing	denes_: thanks, but the underlying hw is probably different for the meizu.
22:23:27	planetbeing	the flash controller that is
22:27:09		Quit perrikwp ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")
22:32:13	saratoga	amiconn: isn't it 2*n for loads on ARM7tdmi? I think the third cycle where it writes back the value to a register can be overlapped with the next's instruction fetch
22:33:38	amiconn	No, it is 3n for loads (and 2n for stores)
22:34:06	amiconn	ARM7tdmi doesn't overlap anything
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22:36:33	denes_	planetbeing: I think the flashcontroller must be similar. meizu is s5l8700 iphone is probably s5l8900
22:37:13	amiconn	The manual says that memory cycles can be merged
22:37:37	denes_	planetbeing: so I think you should check out the datasheet of s5l8700 - http://rapidshare.com/files/101234522/S5L8700X-DS.pdf.html
22:39:57	saratoga	"The third cycle can normally be merged with the next memory prefetch to form one memory N cycle
22:40:01	saratoga	ah yeah
22:41:59	*	gevaerts 's F20 is running test_codec again on the APE files
22:42:37		Quit mofux (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
22:42:48		Quit Bensawsome ("The awsome is gone :(")
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22:49:43	planetbeing	denes_: I'll take a look.
22:50:15		Quit esthar ("KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/")
22:52:30		Part dany_21a
22:53:36	saratoga	amiconn: I've trying to read through some .S files, but am not too familar with how c works
22:53:47	saratoga	are function arguements in specific registers or on the stack?
22:54:04	amiconn	Depends on the architecture and on the number of arguments
22:54:53	amiconn	Both ARM and SH1 use regparms for functions with <= 4 arguments (ARM uses r0..r3 and SH1 uses r4..r7)
22:55:32	amiconn	Coldfire always uses the stack, as does SH1 for functions with > 4 arguments (or variadic functions)
22:55:58	saratoga	ah so "str r0, [r13, #12] " is putting the first function argument onto the stack?
22:56:31	amiconn	I'm not sure whether ARM uses only the stack for > 4 arguments, or whether it passes the first 4 in registers as well
22:56:56	funman	From what I read in the SansaV2 OF, the first 4 arguments are always in r0-r3
22:57:08	amiconn	#12 should be the 4th argument
22:57:32	amiconn	funman: Does the caller put them on the stack as well, or only into the registers?
22:57:56		Join esthar [0] (n=esthar@student165-170.hampshire.edu)
22:57:57	funman	no duplication, the stack is only used for the 5th - nth arguments (if any)
22:58:10	amiconn	Ah, then that is different from SH1
22:59:21	amiconn	SH1 puts everything on the stack if there are > 4 arguments. That means it's very helpful to try and keep the argument count <= 4 (smaller code)
22:59:28		Quit J-23 ("Flying cow pressed ^D on my keyboard.")
23:00
23:00:08	gevaerts	amiconn: new gigabeat f numbers at http://pastebin.ca/1247317
23:00:11	funman	isn't that operating system specific ?
23:00:17	amiconn	So offset 12 would be the 8th argument (assuming arguments of <= 32 bit length)
23:01:03	funman	amiconn: if the stack pointer is decremented, that could be the 5th, and 3 others following, no ?
23:01:22	kugel	bertrik: cool
23:01:53	kugel	funman: sounds good. btw: I have an microSD now
23:02:03	amiconn	funman: It's ABI specific.
23:02:56	amiconn	The ABI is often fixed for an architecture
23:03:26	funman	kugel: cool, should I understand that you volunteer to write the SD code until we get access to the SD card on the Clip/m200 ? :)
23:04:02	gevaerts	gigabeat S is still 3 to 5 % faster per MHz than gigabeat F for -c1000
23:04:12	kugel	bertrik: I'd love to have the first "gentlemen we have sound" telling "we heard radio" ;)
23:04:43	saratoga	the VFP on the GBS is FP only, and thus not useful for APE right?
23:04:53	amiconn	gevaerts: I would hope so...
23:05:24	gevaerts	amiconn: you're getting close :)
23:05:25	amiconn	saratoga: Correct. The filters do use the armv6 simd instructions where possible though
23:05:57	BigBambi	gevaerts: I do like "1748.38MHz needed for realtime"
23:05:58	kugel	funman: I don't think so :( But I heard the external sd could be an easier job?
23:06:38	amiconn	BigBambi: PP5002 would even need 2151MHz for -c5000 realtime...
23:06:46	BigBambi	amiconn: Nice :)
23:07:05	funman	kugel: the current code in svn works for the power-up procedure on the external SD (i.e. the SD slot). just comment the 2 calls with NAND_AS3525 as parameter to try on the Fuze.
23:07:33	BigBambi	I'mn still relatively amazed that ape runs as well as it does. That's some good work there
23:07:35	kugel	on the weekend
23:07:45	kugel	I'm busy right now and will be tomorrow
23:07:53	funman	except the missing bit we need to have the power-up work on the internal SD (i.e. the one connected to the iNAND chip), all the code should be 100% the same
23:08:34		Quit jgarvey ("Leaving")
23:09:13	planetbeing	denes_: actually, i think that's quite a good match! thanks for the data sheet, heh.
23:09:24	*	gevaerts wonders if assigning the 32K of unallocated IRAM on PP5022 to codecs may get -c200 over 100% on sansa
23:09:37		Quit domonoky (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:09:44	saratoga	amiconn: are you familar with the coldfire mp3 optimizations?
23:11:08	amiconn	gevaerts: No, and btw the IRAM isn't unallocated
23:11:34	amiconn	It's already used, but all it can do is speed up -c5000 from 3.6% to 4.1% ;)
23:12:39	gevaerts	It isn't? I thought the 5022 had 128K while all 502x builds only use 96K?
23:12:41	amiconn	A dual core split should bring -c1000 to ~195% realtime and -c2000 to ~150% realtime though
23:13:20	Bagder	glad to see you spend all this time on APE, I'm sure both users will appreciate it! ;-P
23:13:36	amiconn	(doing entropy decoding on CPU and filter, predictor and decorrelation on the COP)
23:14:41	funman	Bagder: :) don't you think they would better spend free time on the sansav2?
23:15:08	gevaerts	funman: this also benefits sansav2 ;)
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23:15:51	amiconn	pfft
23:16:12		Quit J-23 (Client Quit)
23:17:48	funman	:q
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23:31:20	funman	bertrik: did you notice OF sets SLAD1 (not listed in the datasheet for audio master) register to the same value than SLAD0
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23:41:00	***	Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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23:55:07	bertrik	funman, I think SLAD0 and SLAD1 are not that important because that for the master/slave i2c bus, which is probably not even used
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