00:00:25 | * | amiconn isn't 100% sure, but has no real motivation to find out |
00:01:17 | | Quit robin0800 (Remote closed the connection) |
00:02:30 | saratoga | area sampling is nice to have, though arguably it isn't needed |
00:02:38 | saratoga | would still be nice for targets with a lot of memory or flash disks |
00:02:50 | saratoga | perhaps it should be a compile time choice |
00:03:18 | * | kugel remember the wanted bmp resize shouldn't be only fast and small, but also give pretty results |
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00:04:45 | Llorean | Pretty results are a bit less important, since if someone really wants the prettiest results they can resize in advance. |
00:04:53 | Llorean | The goal should be "not bad looking results" |
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00:08:14 | kugel | saratoga: I get 15k increased ram usage here |
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00:13:26 | jhMikeS | amiconn: I looked at the beast voice issue and the PCM buffer is being filled and drained so for some reason voice simply isn't being heard. |
00:14:25 | linuxstb | amiconn: The patch on the tracker uses two cache lines for bilinear scaling, so yes, it's doable. |
00:14:44 | saratoga | i really have no idea how big of a deal proper resizing makes, but I think having a compact and fairly well optimized high quality resampler is worthwhile, even if we don't enable it on most devices |
00:15:17 | saratoga | resizing algorithms are interchangable anyway, so theres little cost to having a few and picking the best one based on device resolution and memory constraints |
00:17:15 | saratoga | kugel: yeah i've gotten a few numbers out of it, not sure why |
00:18:03 | kugel | i think 15k sounds reasonable if it's able to do 2500x2500 |
00:18:07 | linuxstb | Does anyone know how jpeg images are decoded? i.e. in what order pixels are output? I'm wondering what size temporary buffer is needed prior to resizing. |
00:19:27 | amiconn | linuxstb: Further resizing jpeg without decoding the whole image first is very difficult |
00:19:35 | saratoga | linuxstb: they're stored as 8x8 blocks which are inverse transformed |
00:19:44 | saratoga | i believe left to right, up to down |
00:20:07 | amiconn | Pixels are output in macroblock order, but jpeg is YUV, and afaik Y, U and V are separated |
00:20:25 | amiconn | Also, there are several possible chroma subsamplings |
00:21:01 | saratoga | if theh color samples are not interleaved this could be annoying |
00:26:30 | saratoga | google says images can have interleaved channels, but i'm not sure if they have to |
00:26:50 | saratoga | though it would seem quite stupid to transmit each color channel seperately |
00:34:45 | * | linuxstb does a test compile with the jpeg decoder (and the yuv2rgb conversion) in the core, and it adds about 14KB |
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01:45:55 | Unhelpful | if you're going to just do area averaging, and you're only averaging whole pixels... you could do just one line, but not of pixel values. |
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01:46:33 | Unhelpful | have an accumulator line that you add values to, 32-bit values should be good for any reasonable scale, i'd think |
01:47:00 | Unhelpful | then divide the values in it after you've summed up however many lines you need to to get one output line |
01:47:59 | Unhelpful | you could even multiply the first and last lines that go into it by some scaling factor if they're not "all the way" in the region of interest |
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01:48:34 | kugel | jhMikeS: ping |
01:53:53 | gevaerts | Nico_P: if you split an mp3 file with a frame-level splitting tool (such as cutmp3, but there are lots), the resulting files play back without any noticeable noise or gap in rockbox |
01:53:55 | kugel | Nico_P: we've played around with splitting mp3 files. the resulting files have a strange noise between each other in just about every media player except rockbox |
01:54:48 | gevaerts | So the question is, why is rockbox different? |
01:54:48 | Nico_P | interesting... what do you think it could mean? |
01:55:20 | Nico_P | honestly I wouldn't know... the parts of the playback engine I dealt with are higher level |
01:55:22 | kugel | well, my guess is that rockbox skips 1-2 frames |
01:55:41 | gevaerts | You'd hear that I think |
01:55:49 | Nico_P | the answer is most likely in the MP3 codec |
01:56:13 | gevaerts | If the mp3 codec doesn't clear its state between tracks, you'd get this effect I think |
01:56:40 | kugel | gevaerts: I think you only hear that if those frames are noticeable different from the surrounding ones |
01:57:08 | Llorean | If it regularly skipped a frame or two, wouldn't gapless never work? |
01:57:18 | soap | Are you talking about splitting A into A1 and A2 and then playing A1 followed directly by A2? |
01:57:30 | kugel | yes |
01:57:34 | soap | or A1 followed by B1? |
01:57:58 | Unhelpful | mpeg frames aren't overlapped, are they? |
01:59:08 | kugel | Llorean: do you hear that 1 frame is missing if they're very similar to the surrounding ones? I say you only hear that if that particular frame is very different |
01:59:13 | soap | yes, frame 1 is smeared into frame 2 |
01:59:34 | soap | else you would get level jumps at the boundry, no? |
01:59:56 | Llorean | kugel: Considering the kinds of bug reports we get regarding gapless, people have paid *very* careful attention to gapless under a variety of circumstances. |
02:00 |
02:00:19 | gevaerts | So just cutting between frames would be expected to create audible artefacts I guess |
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02:01:37 | linuxstb | gevaerts: I'm pretty sure Rockbox's mp3 codec doesn't clear the state between tracks - to enable gapless... apps/codecs/mpa.c should give you the answer though. |
02:02:27 | Llorean | gevaerts: The players you tried, any of them targeted at gapless playback? |
02:02:44 | kugel | what's the backdraw of not clearing the state? obviously pc apps don't do that (given that this is causing our issue) |
02:02:55 | Llorean | kugel: Most PC apps don't playback MP3s gaplessly |
02:03:27 | kugel | the one I tried does gapless, but not in this case |
02:03:33 | Llorean | Gapless MP3? |
02:03:39 | Llorean | Or just "gapless" in formats that natively support it? |
02:03:49 | gevaerts | Llorean: I don't think so. You hear a real noise however, not just a gap |
02:04:04 | kugel | mp3 too, I've a few live albums in mp3 which are gapless in both the pc app and rockbox |
02:04:05 | Nico_P | kugel: have you tried with FB2K? |
02:04:15 | gevaerts | And you also hear it when just playing the second file |
02:04:38 | Llorean | gevaerts: And you don't hear it when just playing the second file from cold stop in Rockbox? |
02:05:09 | kugel | gevaerts: yea true |
02:05:15 | soap | also remember the bit reservoir |
02:05:32 | soap | if frame A has room and frame B needs bits, it will store them in A |
02:05:39 | Llorean | gevaerts: My point about gapless, though, was that it may be something *we've* changed/fixed to improve gapless support in the past (maybe fixing some other bug) that they haven't had to address. |
02:05:55 | soap | so if you split between A and B, B won't have all the data it needs. |
02:06:59 | gevaerts | Llorean: I _think_ I hear it |
02:07:22 | * | gevaerts didn't hear it last time because of fade-on-pause being on |
02:07:55 | Llorean | So it could be the lack of codec reset? |
02:08:18 | gevaerts | That's what I think, but of course as you said this may be intentional |
02:10:10 | kugel | Nico_P: No I haven't tried that |
02:10:43 | Nico_P | it has explicit gapless support, so my guess is that you won't hear the artefact |
02:10:55 | kugel | ok, let me try |
02:14:15 | kugel | Nico_P: No, it doesn't show these artifacts |
02:14:38 | gevaerts | So is this a bug or a feature? |
02:14:40 | kugel | media monkey does mp3 gapless though with showing these artifacts |
02:16:18 | Llorean | gevaerts: Sounds like a feature. |
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02:17:10 | Llorean | kugel: It looks like MediaMonkey might use the "remove silence" method of gapless. |
02:17:22 | gevaerts | Llorean: yes, until someone gets artefacts at the beginning of a correct file when it's played straight after some other files |
02:18:08 | * | gevaerts isn't convinced that this can't happen |
02:18:19 | kugel | Llorean: possibly, it achieves gapless playback |
02:18:37 | Llorean | kugel: "Achieves the appearance of gapless" and "has true gapless" are two very different things. |
02:19:06 | gevaerts | Wasn't true mp3 gapless supposed to need special tags? |
02:19:07 | Llorean | gevaerts: I'm not convinced it's impossible either. |
02:19:10 | Llorean | It does, yes. |
02:19:13 | * | gevaerts is ignorant |
02:19:22 | Llorean | It needs either special tags, or MP3s that end on frame boundaries (IIRC) |
02:19:45 | kugel | how's that different? no gap is no gap. |
02:20:13 | Llorean | kugel: "Silence detection" can mean removal of silences that's supposed to be there, for one thing. |
02:20:21 | Llorean | Basically, it can end up reducing or removing a gap that's intentional. |
02:21:17 | kugel | "true gapless" is questionable anyway when it comes to mp3 |
02:21:22 | Llorean | No, it's really not. |
02:21:42 | Llorean | With the LAME headers it's an accurate statement. |
02:22:04 | kugel | with lame headers maybe |
02:22:17 | kugel | but not with mp3 in general |
02:22:33 | Llorean | I don't understand your point. |
02:23:08 | kugel | "there's one specific encoder which can do gapless" doesn't make it unquestionable. The format itself isn't designed for gapless, so it'll always be questionable |
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02:23:24 | Llorean | There is NO question as to whether MP3 can be done gaplessly |
02:23:30 | Llorean | The only question is whether users WILL do it gaplessly. |
02:25:06 | Llorean | gevaerts: Should the codec maybe try to determine if the songs are sequentially from the same album? |
02:25:39 | webguest73 | hello |
02:26:25 | gevaerts | Llorean: I think it should, as well as possibly checking for LAME headers. I'm not sure whether it's worth the extra complexity though |
02:26:36 | webguest73 | hi |
02:26:38 | Llorean | gevaerts: It does check for LAME headers, because we make use of them. |
02:26:47 | Llorean | webguest73: If you have a question, please go ahead and ask. |
02:28:14 | webguest73 | hi |
02:28:59 | Llorean | gevaerts: I'm kinda surprised MP3 depends on previous frames to avoid artifacts though. Doesn't that, in a way, break its ability to be streamed cleanly? |
02:29:57 | gevaerts | Good point. I'm a codec n00b though, so I don't actually know |
02:30:32 | gevaerts | Llorean: I meant, maybe it should reset state if no LAME headers are there. That should still allow frame-level gapless, _if_ the files are fully standalone. Of course, this entire discussion shows that that may not be a safe assumption |
02:31:02 | webguest73 | hi |
02:31:20 | Llorean | gevaerts: I'd add a little more complexity (if codecs can be aware of shuffle status) with "always reset if shuffling, never reset if sequential unless current album != previous track's album" |
02:32:42 | gevaerts | Llorean: now how do you check the "sequential" bit reliably? IIRC those track number tags aren't always very well-formed |
02:32:42 | Llorean | There's still cases where it could artifact but it'd reduce the odds a lot while still, I think, ensuring cases where it's supposed to be gapless always will be? |
02:32:57 | Llorean | Sorry, by "sequential" I meant "if shuffle is off" |
02:33:03 | gevaerts | ah, ok |
02:33:12 | Llorean | Basically, don't worry about the order of the tracks. If shuffle is off, and they come from the same album, assume they're "in order" |
02:33:24 | Llorean | It's a little dumb, but it's less complex. |
02:34:00 | * | gevaerts thinks |
02:34:36 | gevaerts | I think it will work, as in _very_ unlikely to not play gapless when it |
02:35:02 | gevaerts | s supposed to, and somewhat unlikely to attempt gapless when it shouldn't |
02:35:38 | gevaerts | Now the question is, does the codec have access to all needed info? |
02:35:49 | Llorean | No clue. :) |
02:36:21 | jhMikeS | kugel: ring |
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02:36:47 | kugel | jhMikeS: I just wanted to get your attention on FS #6800 |
02:37:39 | kugel | LambdaCalulus37 and me wanted to talk with you a bit about that patch in order to get it committed |
02:38:13 | Zagor | new make patch uploaded to FS #9534. please try and break it. |
02:38:52 | gevaerts | Llorean: as far as I know there's still the possibility that there is no real problem though. Maybe an mp3 frame can say something like "reset state", and maybe all "normal" mp3 files start with that |
02:39:15 | gevaerts | Who knows mp3 well? |
02:39:18 | Llorean | gevaerts: I was wondering the same sort of thing. |
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02:39:56 | gevaerts | I know mpeg video has that sort of thing |
02:40:16 | allele | if I were to perform rb functions for a plugin from an h file how would I add rb as an argument? |
02:40:38 | gevaerts | allele: why would you? |
02:41:15 | allele | so I can have seperate headers for each player and draw things on the screen according to the player |
02:41:22 | jhMikeS | kugel: Why is an out of range brightness being changed to MAX? Things get the default if not correct. |
02:41:23 | Llorean | jhMikeS: "There still seems to be a problem of cutting of voice samples from the beggining of clips when music isn't playing" <−− I'm pretty sure this is a global swcodec bug. |
02:41:38 | allele | otherwise I guess I could just create a seperate plugin file for each player |
02:41:54 | jhMikeS | Llorean: Since when? If it is, it has been introduced. |
02:42:08 | Llorean | For at least half a year. |
02:42:20 | Llorean | It's been brought up dozens of times by people who thought it was a bug in the voice files. |
02:42:44 | jhMikeS | Llorean: It is every clip and not just the .talk clips which I though were the problem. |
02:42:50 | gevaerts | allele: Does that require calling functions from the header? |
02:43:07 | Llorean | jhMikeS: I've certainly experienced it with .voice files as well |
02:43:13 | Llorean | On players other than the S. |
02:43:16 | jhMikeS | Perhaps I should check the other players first since I haven't really experienced it with voice menus. |
02:43:29 | Llorean | If you generate voice files using rbutil you should see it. |
02:43:40 | jhMikeS | Today was the first time I used voice on the beast. |
02:43:47 | Llorean | i've heard reports that voice files generated by the other script don't experience the problem, though I can't confirm this (and think it'd be strange if true) |
02:44:05 | allele | I believe so |
02:44:12 | jhMikeS | It can't be bad frames since it doesn't do that if music is playing. |
02:44:24 | gevaerts | why? |
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02:45:12 | allele | because otherwise I would need at least a second set of functions for the sansa player, because the display on that would be rotated 90 degrees clockwise |
02:45:22 | Llorean | jhMikeS: Someone mentioned it might be an issue with the zero padding? |
02:45:45 | gevaerts | allele: usually this is just handled with some #ifdefs in the c file |
02:45:46 | jhMikeS | Llorean: I have had the beast cut some samples from the beginning of tracks too which I have never had on other players. |
02:45:52 | Unhelpful | when somebody who knows the hardware is about, could they say if a multiply and add per input pixel, and one integer divide per output, (plus whatever loops end up costing) is reasonable, for image scaling? i'm working up a test at the moment... |
02:45:52 | Llorean | Ah. |
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02:46:15 | jhMikeS | Llorean: Every sample should get played, zero padding or not. |
02:46:15 | Llorean | jhMikeS: Well, maybe there's two things going on that are similar, but there's definitely been a voice issue like that. |
02:46:51 | Llorean | Unhelpful: Scaling should only be done on load, so even a relatively "slow" scale isn't a particular problem. |
02:47:49 | Unhelpful | Llorean: i think i can pull off an area average with about that much computation, and one or two rows of uint32 the width of the image. |
02:48:19 | gevaerts | Unhelpful: do I understand your idea correctly if I assume that that multiply is only needed for non-integer scaling? |
02:49:06 | gevaerts | I mean something like 500->120, while 500->125 wouldn't need it (as that's exactly 1/4) |
02:49:28 | jhMikeS | Llorean: for the beast it could be more than one thing. it could be failing to link the first buffer inserts. |
02:49:39 | Unhelpful | gevaerts: indeed, the multiply would only be for "sub-pixel" contributions at the box edge, and could be tossed entirely if the scale happens to be an integer |
02:50:40 | * | jhMikeS just has to investigate and avoid random guessing that may or may not make a bit of sense. |
02:51:56 | gevaerts | Unhelpful: Speaking as someone who doesn't know image manipulation from audio codecs, I think your method is certainly worth trying |
02:52:35 | Unhelpful | gevaerts: i'm working on a mock-up, that will just do raw, headerless grey data from stdin to stdout, just to see if it will produce passable output |
02:53:12 | Unhelpful | do you think it's worth special-casing the integer scale case? |
02:53:43 | Llorean | Probably not. |
02:54:00 | Llorean | That'll make it bigger in a situation where the speed gain probably isn't very critical. |
02:54:36 | gevaerts | Hard to say, but I think it's unlikely enough to not be worth the extra code size for a minimal speed up |
02:54:53 | Unhelpful | also, i don't think it *needs* to be very tightly coupled to the jpeg codec |
02:55:24 | kugel | jhMikeS: others drivers do change it to max |
02:55:32 | Unhelpful | if it takes a line of input at a time, we could have options for 1/2, 1/4, 1/8-scale output from jpeg, and just fudge the input sizes by that amount, and pass lines to the scaler |
02:56:08 | gevaerts | I'd start by doing it just for bmp |
02:57:10 | Unhelpful | well, i'm starting, like i said, with grey data, to make sure the idea works and produces decent output |
02:59:55 | Unhelpful | and probably not finishing tonight, saturday is far to tired a day for me |
03:00 |
03:02:55 | kugel | jhMikeS: Do you spot anything else that stops it from getting committed? Maybe you could just give it a test |
03:03:14 | jhMikeS | kugel: hmm...some don't do anything at all |
03:06:02 | kugel | jhMikeS: Ok, I can rever that change. I'jj did that because the condition was brightness >= array_len (i.e. higher that the max), so it made sense for to stay at the max level if something tries to go beyond that. But going to defaults seems logical as well. |
03:06:12 | kugel | s/that/than |
03:08:50 | jhMikeS | kugel: about the defaulting, I think I set it up to saturate at the backlight.c level. Others are to make sure bits aren't illegal. |
03:09:19 | kugel | ok, sounds fine |
03:09:41 | jhMikeS | kugel: oh, it's (unsigned)brightness >= ARRAYLEN() which catches negative values too |
03:10:06 | kugel | aww right |
03:10:47 | kugel | mr. obvious used a '!=' though |
03:11:06 | kugel | scratch that |
03:11:12 | kugel | I'm way too tired |
03:11:12 | jhMikeS | kugel: I'll apply it and test it instead of trying to read the diff along. I have something else to do first and I'll be back. |
03:11:19 | jhMikeS | hehe |
03:11:41 | kugel | jhMikeS: thanks. |
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03:21:58 | kugel | Llorean: I split that mp3 with another tool now (medieval cue splitter), and now there's no strange noise between the tracks in neiter rockbox nor my pc media player |
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04:00 |
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04:22:10 | Minthe | Hello |
04:22:21 | Minthe | Excuse me, but did you notice http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/9536?histring=wma ? |
04:24:37 | Minthe | Hello |
04:24:39 | Minthe | Excuse me, but did you notice http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/9536?histring=wma ? |
04:24:50 | JdGordon | no need to repeat yourself |
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04:25:30 | Minthe | Sorry but I got IRC error 477 |
04:27:04 | jhMikeS | kugel: It's working mostly. If the brightness is 1, then the backlight doesn't come back on. I also wonder about fading brightness changes. |
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04:30:44 | Minthe | Anyway I'm looking forward to any comments for bugs 9536... |
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04:32:28 | Davide-NYC | I spotted an elusive Sevakis commit! So I logged on and see a bunch of familiar names. |
04:32:38 | Davide-NYC | Cheers folks! |
04:33:53 | JdGordon | hey |
04:34:13 | jhMikeS | Elusive? I'm sure I'll get back on track. |
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04:36:37 | Davide-NYC | Hehe |
04:36:38 | * | LambdaCalculus37 spots a Davide-NYC lurking about :) |
04:37:01 | Davide-NYC | I am in and out of focus due to ongoing convo with the "boss"./ |
04:37:03 | LambdaCalculus37 | Davide-NYC: Yep, a Sevakis commit has occured. :) |
04:38:27 | LambdaCalculus37 | Gotta go for now. |
04:38:44 | * | LambdaCalculus37 hopes the beast charging commit comes soon! :) |
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04:41:06 | jhMikeS | heh...well, something will happen as soon as I get some sense of the whys and whats of the OF battery driver |
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06:10:30 | obo_ | soap: the double entries aren't meant to appear in the log - there is code in apps/scrobble.c which should prevent it |
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06:34:32 | AlHaz | Evening. Just popping to ask if perhaps someone here has (or knows where i can get) a recent iriver h120 build w/ the rtc hack stuff enabled? |
06:34:46 | AlHaz | just had to check if i can save myself the trouble of installing a crossdev environment, etc |
06:49:28 | soap | obo_, do you understand my poor attempt at describing when the double entries are happening? |
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06:56:00 | Unhelpful | here's my area scaler. reads raw headerless greyscale data on stdin, writes same on stdout. takes input width, input height, output width, output height on command line. works fine, aliasing can be bad. http://pastebin.com/m5f4083da |
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10:16:04 | * | JdGordon would like to get the wps mode patch commited |
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10:40:10 | Llorean | JdGordon: Did people ever really accept that patch? |
10:40:17 | * | Llorean doesn't recall if it was talked about on the list. |
10:40:23 | Llorean | I mean that's pretty major, remapping controls. |
10:40:34 | JdGordon | it was talked about in a few places and mostly got lost in other arguments |
10:40:45 | Llorean | Was it talked about on the list? |
10:41:01 | Llorean | This kinda feels like another "people didn't like it so I'm trying to slip it by" thing. |
10:41:15 | Llorean | I don't really remember it having much support at all among the devs when I've seen it discussed. |
10:42:13 | * | amiconn severely dislikes this patch |
10:42:27 | amiconn | It changes controls, possible even without the user knowing why |
10:42:33 | JdGordon | no, it didnt have a thread to itself on the list, but it was discussed a fair amount, and from what i remember it either got "dislike and wouldnt use" or "wait and see what the authors come up with" |
10:42:57 | Llorean | JdGordon: So, no dev is in favour of it but you, so you wait until nearly everyone's asleep and commit it? |
10:43:20 | amiconn | Iirc the outcome was that unless a better way than stealing a button is found, it shouldn't go in |
10:43:26 | JdGordon | well most are waking up now... and im not the only dev who likes it |
10:43:53 | amiconn | Name any other one? |
10:44:05 | Llorean | JdGordon: I seem to remember a *lot* of devs don't like it though. |
10:44:14 | JdGordon | iirc linuxstb wasnt against it |
10:44:43 | amiconn | I'm not against the idea of having wps modes, but I'm firmly against changing controls, and against configurable controls through the backdoor |
10:45:11 | Llorean | I still think just adding a "switch WPS mode" option in the context menu would've been fine. |
10:45:16 | Llorean | Almost as fast, and no stolen controls. |
10:45:42 | JdGordon | and I still say that its too slow and makes it less sueful |
10:45:43 | Llorean | JdGordon: It really feels like you haven't even tried to address the concerns everyone had with it. |
10:45:46 | JdGordon | useful even |
10:45:57 | Llorean | JdGordon: Less useful, maybe. But it also means it doesn't remap controls invisibly. |
10:46:04 | | Join GodEater_ [0] (n=ge@rockbox/staff/GodEater) |
10:46:06 | Llorean | It's still *useful* just VERY SLIGHTLY slower. |
10:46:09 | Llorean | Oh no. |
10:46:18 | JdGordon | not very slightly at all |
10:46:28 | Llorean | It's ~1.5 seconds slower for a single mode switch. |
10:46:37 | Llorean | Assuming you put the option as the top context menu entry. |
10:46:45 | JdGordon | you can flip through every mode in the time it takes to change to the next mode if it has to go through the context menu |
10:46:46 | amiconn | Quickscreen... |
10:47:09 | Llorean | JdGordon: 1.5 seconds is "slightly" |
10:47:27 | JdGordon | times by how ever many modes there are... is not slightly |
10:47:30 | Llorean | No |
10:47:41 | Llorean | It's not times however many there are unless you leave, look, switch again, leave, look... |
10:47:56 | Llorean | And even then, it's a few seconds. Most WPSes won't have more than 2 or 3 modes. |
10:48:09 | Llorean | And I still think it's a worthwhile price to pay for not silently remapping controls. |
10:48:48 | linuxstb | JdGordon: I wasn't against it, but you shouldn't have committed it - it was far too controversial... |
10:48:54 | Llorean | But here you are, changing controls arbitrarily, avoiding addressing concerns, and committing a rather major change without discussing it on-list when over the last few months we've explicitly been trying to get people to talk about patches more on-list first |
10:49:04 | martian67 | Llorean, there could always be a visual wps indicator |
10:49:16 | Llorean | martian67: But there ISN'T one right now. |
10:49:41 | Llorean | martian67: That's the point, the patch as he's committed it contains problems that greatly upset some of the devs and he's chosen not to even attempt to address. |
10:51:17 | JdGordon | thats up to themers.... and its not silent, every theme that uses it will make it pretty obvious |
10:51:23 | Llorean | JdGordon: They don't have to. |
10:51:39 | JdGordon | users arnt stupid... they'll figure it out quickly |
10:51:46 | Llorean | It's silent, as Rockbox doesn't require the user to know the theme has changed their keymap on them until they attempt to use a key they thought they knew how to use, and it fails. |
10:52:01 | amiconn | It *is* silent for users which unknowlingly load a theme that uses it. |
10:52:12 | * | linuxstb doesn't like debating patches _after_ they've been committed... |
10:52:13 | Llorean | JdGordon: I'm sure blind users will be able to readily tell their WPS is changing modes, rather than their Rockbox suddenly not talking to them. |
10:52:50 | * | Llorean points out that blind users may share an MP3 player, so it's not unbelievable that they may have a WPS set. |
10:53:05 | Llorean | Or simply someone using one blindly. |
10:53:26 | amiconn | JdGordon: There's another important point: You take away the browse button to switch modes, which means that the browser becomes much slower to enter |
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10:53:36 | JdGordon | Llorean: and you really think a blind user will use this sort of wps? |
10:53:48 | Llorean | JdGordon: Did you read the rest of what I said? |
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10:53:57 | JdGordon | amiconn: thats what the emnu button is for |
10:54:06 | JdGordon | Llorean: yes, though after hitting enter |
10:54:09 | amiconn | huh? |
10:54:14 | Llorean | JdGordon: The menu button does not instantly go to the browser, nor does it follow playlist. |
10:54:15 | JdGordon | menu |
10:54:31 | Llorean | You're complaining about slowed access to the WPS modes, but you're slowing access to the browser in exchange. |
10:54:48 | * | Llorean thinks the patch should be reverted until it's at least properly discussed. |
10:55:16 | Llorean | Not everyone has to agree, but committing something when people aren't expected to be around because it's controversial really should be discouraged. |
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10:57:01 | amiconn | JdGordon: Before your unwanted commit, I could go to the browser with a single keypress. You really expect me to go to the menu, browse to "Files" and enter that? That's at least 4 keypresses, and on wheel targets, it even involves using the wheel, i.e. not having tactile feedback |
10:57:18 | JdGordon | but your not going to use the tag anyway so its irrelevant |
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10:57:32 | amiconn | It's not irrelevant. Re-read what I said earlier |
10:58:35 | n1s | How about using a currently unused button on targets which have one (like rec buttons on some players) and do it with the context menu or quickscreen for others? |
10:58:59 | Llorean | n1s: See, this is an idea that could've come up if it had actually been widely discussed... |
10:59:02 | * | linuxstb agrees the commiit should be reverted until it's discussed, but will probably argue in favour of the feature |
10:59:17 | JdGordon | unused buttons are probably out becuase its nice to keep targets consistant |
10:59:26 | * | JdGordon thinks linuxstb is about 2min too slow... |
10:59:38 | Llorean | JdGordon: Unused buttons are fine if the context menu option is still there on all targets. |
10:59:40 | JdGordon | context menu is imo too slow |
10:59:48 | Llorean | So some targets have button+context, others just use the context. |
10:59:57 | Llorean | Pretty consistent. |
11:00 |
11:00:15 | Llorean | JdGordon: But you're telling us to use your new feature, we have to sacrifice existing features. |
11:00:24 | Llorean | I can't use your feature, and features I'm used to using, at the same time. |
11:00:29 | linuxstb | JdGordon: So you only reverted because it gave warnings? |
11:00:35 | Llorean | IMO that's worse than "slow", since you're actively disabling a feature. |
11:00:49 | | Join pixelma [0] (n=Marianne@rockbox/staff/pixelma) |
11:01:22 | JdGordon | your not disabling... you can still go through the files menu... |
11:01:46 | Llorean | JdGordon: You've disabled the ability to quickly reach the file browser. |
11:01:48 | JdGordon | would adding a "go to file" option in the context menu be ok? |
11:01:58 | Llorean | You've still disabled the existing feature. |
11:02:12 | JdGordon | every target still can get to it through the menu |
11:02:13 | Llorean | Why is it "I want to destroy your feature for mine" rather than "I want to preserve the existing feature set and add mine on top of it"? |
11:02:28 | JdGordon | its only breaking it IF YOU ACTUALLY USE THE TAG |
11:02:31 | Llorean | Every target could get to your additional WPS screens through the menu |
11:02:45 | Llorean | JdGordon: As I said earlier, you prevent me from using an existing feature with the new feature. |
11:02:55 | Llorean | Why not make them work alongside? There are several ways to do it as have been suggested. |
11:02:56 | JdGordon | then its up to you which is more important |
11:03:10 | Llorean | If I have to pick which is more important, I'm going to vote against your feature period. |
11:03:16 | amiconn | JdGordon: Yes, and I would like to be able to use that tag (as I already said) *without* taking away another favourite feature of mine (the ability to browse quickly) |
11:03:24 | Llorean | It's not impossible for you to design your feature to work alongside existing ones. |
11:03:49 | JdGordon | no, but imo one of the main strongpoints is the quick mode changing... |
11:04:05 | Llorean | But apparently not in the opinion of several others. |
11:04:45 | Llorean | Rockbox should strive not to have mutually-exclusive features. |
11:05:35 | Llorean | But especially not silently exclusive ones. |
11:06:36 | Llorean | JdGordon: You gonna wait and discuss it on-list? |
11:06:38 | amiconn | Don't forget that there are targets where reaching the menu from the wps takes significantly longer than going to the browser. That does not even include going from the menu to the browser. |
11:07:24 | JdGordon | ? |
11:07:30 | amiconn | And the target I have in mind is one of those which would profit most from wps modes (small screen) |
11:08:27 | amiconn | JdGordon: On Ondio, wps->browser is short Mode. wps->menu needs 2 times long Mode (first one goes to the context menu) |
11:09:25 | * | JdGordon thought the ondio couldnt goto the browser and had to go through the menu? |
11:11:05 | JdGordon | Llorean: as for bringing it up on the list... really is there any point? the people who arnt here now are mostly the ones I dont expect to hear from anyway, and then its going to be the same stalemate |
11:11:41 | Llorean | JdGordon: So you honestly think only amiconn, linuxstb and I would comment on it? |
11:11:44 | pixelma | no, and the way it is (as amiconn explained) is usually quite quick |
11:12:05 | n1s | JdGordon: so you see absolutely no other acceptable way to do this but stealing the browser button? |
11:12:27 | JdGordon | Llorean: no, bluebrother will say its remapping buttons, alex wallis will say "what does this patch do", ddalton will complain about it breaking voice |
11:12:34 | Llorean | n1s: It's another case of "a feature we find important isn't important to him, so he can't understand any argument against sacrificing it" |
11:12:56 | JdGordon | ditto Llorean |
11:12:56 | Llorean | JdGordon: So, your view is "Everyone will complain against it but me, so it should be committed?" that doesn't sound like sound logic. |
11:13:13 | Llorean | JdGordon: The difference is, you're talking about REMOVING AN EXISTING FEATURE. |
11:13:19 | JdGordon | because the quiet users and the those that dont care either way group are much bugger |
11:13:24 | JdGordon | no im not |
11:13:36 | JdGordon | and the one which could be disabled doesnt even work correctly anyway |
11:13:40 | Llorean | I'm sure you'd moan quite a bit if I decided customizable quickscreens weren't important to me and decided to remove them for something *I* thought was better. |
11:13:45 | JdGordon | or at least consistantly |
11:14:00 | Llorean | What do you mean "It doesn't work consistently"? |
11:14:05 | JdGordon | Llorean: if you took the time to write the patch, no i wouldnt... |
11:14:28 | Llorean | JdGordon: I find that very hard to believe. |
11:14:45 | JdGordon | so prove me wrong |
11:15:44 | Llorean | In that case, I'll just wait until you commit this WPS tag, and replace its feature with something I value more. |
11:15:49 | * | JdGordon doesnt mind people saying "your way works, this way works better" and then brings up a patch... /me minds people saying "do it this way or not at all" |
11:16:08 | Llorean | JdGordon: You're the one saying "the patch has to be this way, or not at all" to everyone who's suggested alternate ways of controlling it... |
11:16:22 | Llorean | So maybe you should be careful about the statements you make. |
11:16:36 | Llorean | You haven't once attempted to compromise. |
11:16:40 | JdGordon | but ive done the patch... do your suggested change and ill be more receptive |
11:17:15 | Llorean | So we should break something rather than waiting until the patch is more acceptable overall? |
11:17:52 | JdGordon | if you value this over the browser then its not breaking.. if you dont the patch should be pretty quick... |
11:18:38 | Llorean | Yes, it's darn quick. |
11:18:44 | Llorean | It's a diff between your commit and the previous version. |
11:19:40 | Llorean | I assume the statement about me going for something *I* thought was better applies here too, or is it just for the quickscreen? |
11:19:49 | Llorean | All I'm saying is cool down a bit, and discuss alternatives on the list. |
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11:19:58 | JdGordon | here, everywhere |
11:20:01 | * | JdGordon is cool |
11:20:03 | Llorean | There are other ways it can be controlled that mean it's not disabling another feature while in-use. |
11:20:17 | Llorean | But while those of us who don't like the feature are offering compromise, you're saying "It has to go in now, MY WAY" |
11:20:28 | amiconn | It *is* breaking a feature. A feature valued by several people, even though that obviously doesn't include you. It's also breaking consistency, and that was agreed upon to be unwanted. |
11:20:33 | Llorean | You're not even willing to talk about it on the list, and see if maybe somebody *does* want to do the work, or attempt to wait. |
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11:22:17 | amiconn | I'm not against the wps modes feature (would btw be especially useful on the Player), but against the side effects of your way to invoke it. |
11:23:09 | Llorean | And I think the feature is somewhat nice, as long as it never interferes with existing use patterns. |
11:23:40 | Llorean | I really like n1s' idea of using the unused record button (or another unused button on say, the S) where possible, and context/quickscreen where not. |
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11:24:43 | JdGordon | unused buttons makes it harder to get working (and support) but is fine. menu almost makes it too slow to bother with |
11:25:12 | Llorean | JdGordon: If the feature is *so* good it's worth sacrificing existing functionality for, surely being able to use it slightly slower is still good... |
11:25:20 | pixelma | context would be a must then (as the Ondio and Player have no spare buttons and no quick screen) - the unusability is your opinion |
11:25:25 | JdGordon | the modes are not (currenlty) named, so having them in a list in the menu means its hard to find the info you want to see |
11:25:43 | Llorean | You think users can't remember what mode they're on? |
11:26:01 | Llorean | Instead of showing a list, you could juts have a "next mode" option in the menu that cycles them, maybe? |
11:26:51 | JdGordon | they know which mode they are on now, they dont know which mode they need to change to to find what they want to see |
11:27:02 | Llorean | JdGordon: They do after they've used it once. |
11:27:19 | Llorean | Wasn't that your excuse for how to deal with the silent keymap change? |
11:27:20 | JdGordon | do they? |
11:27:42 | Llorean | You're saying a user can't remember "1 is standard WPS, 2 is large album art, 3 is up next, 4 is lyrics"?' |
11:27:57 | JdGordon | "was AA on mode 2 or 3?" "hmm it was on mode 2 except when there is next track info, then its mode 4" |
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11:28:08 | JdGordon | or was that the last theme i used? |
11:28:25 | JdGordon | it really hurts its usability changing it to a menu |
11:28:33 | Llorean | Only if themes are stupidly designed. |
11:28:36 | * | bluebrother wonders if he missed the actual discussion about this new wps tag |
11:28:49 | pixelma | your way also only cycles through the modes... |
11:28:57 | Llorean | There's no sense in having it move if there's next track info, if it's in a menu, since order is irrelevant from a menu |
11:29:16 | JdGordon | Llorean: I never suggested themers where smart... jist that users arent stupid |
11:29:23 | Llorean | So any theme that moves it based on whats available is, frankly, poorly designed. We can't help poorly designed themes. |
11:29:35 | Llorean | Frankly, "going by sight" is just as bad in that case |
11:29:49 | Llorean | One page could have alternating sublines, so they visit the page and it's not showing what they wanted so they move on and are unable to find it entirely |
11:30:02 | Llorean | It's possibly, always, to design a theme where they won't see what they want sometimes |
11:30:09 | Llorean | Hell, the information could be hidden so it only shows on hold |
11:30:12 | Llorean | Users *have* to remember some things |
11:30:17 | Llorean | It's a given if a theme is designed such |
11:31:04 | JdGordon | sure, but making them remeber is not as nice as just being able to press a button untill what they want is on the screen |
11:31:11 | * | bluebrother goes checking the logs |
11:31:34 | Llorean | JdGordon: In response "Taking a feature away is not as nice as not silently changing the controls." |
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11:32:34 | JdGordon | its not silent.. its documented.. if you use this tag the button behaviour changes |
11:32:49 | Llorean | JdGordon: They don't have to remember. It's documented. It's in the wps file. |
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11:33:03 | JdGordon | we could even add a splash when the theme is loaded "browse button changs wps mode!" |
11:33:15 | JdGordon | the WPS file is not documentation... |
11:33:23 | JdGordon | you have a pretty twisted mind if you think it is |
11:33:26 | Llorean | JdGordon: It's at least *with* the player when they use it. |
11:33:29 | bluebrother | IMO all questionable patches should be brought up on the ML before committing |
11:33:35 | Llorean | And "we could even add strings to the WPS tag so that each page IS labelled" |
11:33:50 | Llorean | bluebrother: At the VERY least "any patch that removes or changes existing behaviour" |
11:34:13 | bluebrother | yes. |
11:34:29 | * | JdGordon disagrees... patch discussion should be on the tracker |
11:34:35 | fml | I must say that I'm on JdGordon's side. IMO, the whole point of the modes is to be able to switch really quickly. If you can't then it's nearly worthless. It's like saying: you have a car but in order to use it you have to walk 1km. So the patch lets you decide what's more important to you: browser or the modes. What's wrong with it? |
11:34:38 | JdGordon | I will concede that a warning post to the ml is good though |
11:34:48 | bluebrother | but the ML is kinda neglected for such stuff. Discussion things on IRC cuts out all those people that miss the discussion |
11:34:49 | Llorean | fml: The whole point of the modes is *to be able to see them* |
11:34:55 | _lifeless | hello guys, lcd on my player shows rockbox color logo just fine, but colors in rockbox menu is inverted or so, where i should look to fix it? |
11:34:59 | Llorean | fml: Switching quickly is secondary. it's nice, but it is not ESSENTIAL to be able to use them |
11:35:22 | bluebrother | _lifeless: there's a setting to invert the lcd on at least all non-color players |
11:35:34 | Llorean | JdGordon: Most patch discussion can happen on the tracker |
11:35:42 | Llorean | JdGordon: If you're going to undo someone else's work, you REALLY should discuss it on -dev. |
11:35:46 | pixelma | _lifeless: what player is this? |
11:35:51 | linuxstb | JdGordon: BTW, the reason for your yellow on all ARM targets is that the "current_mode" variable needs to be a "signed char", not just "char". |
11:35:52 | Llorean | JdGordon: Changing existing behaviour is undoing someone else's work. |
11:36:07 | _lifeless | philips gogear hdd1620 |
11:36:29 | bluebrother | JdGordon: well, discussion itself could also happen in the tracker, but irc is quite bad for this. Also, not all people are watching all tasks on the tracker, so there should at least some "call for tracker discussion" on the ML imo |
11:36:31 | JdGordon | linuxstb: oh? it wasnt the is_remote?1:0 line? |
11:36:51 | * | JdGordon didnt really look that hard |
11:36:53 | bluebrother | _lifeless: this player isn't supported. There's only work in progress so you have to expect glitches |
11:36:58 | JdGordon | reverted with that message to save face :p |
11:36:59 | Llorean | JdGordon: Are you going to wait and discuss this some, or are you really going to re-commit once the yellow is fixed? |
11:37:01 | pixelma | _lifeless: are you aware that Rockbox on the GoGear is still in early stages of development? |
11:37:40 | fml | Llorean: I disagree. The point is to be able to switch them *quickly*. To see all the info, you have the "show track info" screen. |
11:37:58 | _lifeless | yea, i expect it, i'm trying to port rockbox |
11:38:00 | linuxstb | JdGordon: That's not helpful −− people should know the real reason for every commit, not a fake reason... |
11:38:24 | bluebrother | bah, who needs real reasons? Or even real discussions? |
11:38:40 | JdGordon | or new features... |
11:38:55 | Llorean | fml: Which can't show the album art in different sizes. It can't show a more granular volume indicator. etc, etc. |
11:39:23 | Llorean | fml: Quickness adds to the feature, it isn't the whole of the feature. |
11:39:33 | * | bluebrother likes to strengthen that the menu is NOT a button to enter the browser |
11:39:44 | _lifeless | i just wondering, why bitmaps is ok and ui not |
11:40:00 | Llorean | JdGordon: We've offered suggestions for how to compromise and still have the new feature... You're the one insisting on "all or nothing" which is going to force people who won't accept "all" into the "nothing" position. |
11:40:09 | JdGordon | _lifeless: is the invert option enabled? that would explain it |
11:40:29 | bluebrother | for myself I really don't want quickly switching between useless wps screens but be able to quickly enter the browser |
11:40:53 | JdGordon | then you wont use the tag and the discussion is irrelevant... |
11:40:58 | Llorean | bluebrother: I can see some use in it, *especially* once we have multifont |
11:41:02 | Llorean | A large clock screen would be handy. |
11:41:03 | bluebrother | this main menu thing is ... well, it's used as excuse for making things slower |
11:41:10 | fml | Llorean: correct (about what you can't see in that screen). But I still think that the main point of the modes is not only the information but also how it's accessed. |
11:41:11 | Llorean | I don't see "quick" being necessary. It'd be nice, but non-essential |
11:41:26 | * | JdGordon does see quick as being essential |
11:41:30 | Llorean | fml: If you had to pick one to drop, the information or the quickness, which would it be? |
11:41:32 | bluebrother | Llorean: well, it might be useful. I won't use it though. And most important, I absolutely don't want to use quick access to the browser |
11:41:50 | _lifeless | JdGordon, nope, HAVE_LCD_INVERT is not set |
11:41:50 | Llorean | bluebrother: Well you only lose quick access if your WPS has the tag. |
11:41:55 | Llorean | So if you won't use the tag, it really won't affect you. |
11:41:57 | * | bluebrother wants *quick* for the *browser* |
11:42:21 | bluebrother | Llorean: maybe. But this makes the UI inconsistent. |
11:42:30 | Llorean | bluebrother: Yes, and that's one of the important points. |
11:42:32 | JdGordon | _lifeless: are colours really inverted or you have a bad combination of back/foreground colours? |
11:42:40 | Llorean | But I think more important is the fact that it disables one feature while it's in use. |
11:42:54 | bluebrother | either there is a dedicated button combo that works *always* or there isn't a button for it |
11:42:57 | Llorean | So rather than just lack of consistency, you *lose* a feature by using it. |
11:43:02 | Llorean | Rather than being able to use it alongside a feature. |
11:43:26 | fml | Llorean: information. But I use rather simple WPS anyway so probably wouldn't need the modes. So I'm discussing with my imagination. |
11:43:29 | pixelma | _lifeless: would have been nice if you could have explained this youself - that's more of a technical development question. I have no idea (guessing some bits aren't set correctly for that display yet) but I'm sure that with a bit of patience you'll find people around who know when asked accurate question |
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11:43:44 | pixelma | s |
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11:43:51 | Llorean | fml: You'd drop the information? What would you do with just quickness? |
11:44:33 | fml | Llorean: I mean I wouldn't want to have modes without quickness. |
11:44:48 | Llorean | fml: So you can't see it as having *any* use without quickness? |
11:45:00 | bluebrother | fml: but are you willing to give up quick access to the browser for that? |
11:45:12 | _lifeless | JdGordon, yea, looks like bad combination yep |
11:45:16 | _lifeless | anyway thx guys |
11:45:28 | fml | bluebrother: no. Quick access to the browser is a must. |
11:45:32 | Llorean | JdGordon: You really haven't answered what you intend to do now. Will you wait some and discuss it on the ML? |
11:46:06 | JdGordon | probably hit the ml |
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11:46:21 | fml | bluebrother: but there might be other opinions. And they should be free to decide. |
11:46:28 | bluebrother | fml: which is exactly why I'm against this. If we can get a custom button combo for this screen switching, ok. |
11:46:57 | JdGordon | so only targets with masses of buttons should be able to use the feature? |
11:47:07 | Llorean | fml: We're trying to negotiate a way it can still be used, and in some cases just as quick in others at least able to be used even if it does take an *entire* 1.5 seconds to switch screens, without dropping quick access to the browser. |
11:47:07 | fml | bluebrother: see my second reply. We don't necessarily have to wait. |
11:47:24 | Llorean | JdGordon: Where does "it's less fast" mean "it cannot be used" |
11:47:40 | JdGordon | having the menu is only useful if you know which screen you want |
11:47:49 | Llorean | Yes, which you can REMEMBER |
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11:48:52 | Llorean | We've got a long history of not engineering things with the dumbest user we've got targeted. |
11:49:10 | fml | He-he, I have a proposal. What if we could give the modes names (in the WPS). Then we could offer a context menu to switch to desired mode (with meaningful names) |
11:49:40 | Llorean | fml: I brought that up earlier. |
11:49:55 | Llorean | It was either found unacceptable (as anything that deviates from his current patch apparently is) or ignored. |
11:50:13 | fml | Llorean: oh, I didn't see, sorry |
11:50:18 | JdGordon | 1) that will bloat it out a bit... 2) thats not pretty (mode: aa with next track, AA without next tyrack, next track (if exsists..) it limits the amount of flexibility you have |
11:50:32 | Llorean | JdGordon: how does that limit flexibility? |
11:50:42 | bluebrother | limits the amount of flexibility? |
11:51:02 | Llorean | Going from "no names" to "names" surely *increases* flexibility, even if names can't be paragraphs of text. |
11:51:12 | fml | JdGordon: how the modes are named is left to WPS authors |
11:51:46 | JdGordon | it also kills internationalisation |
11:52:16 | Llorean | JdGordon: How many WPSes have text already that's not localized? |
11:52:20 | JdGordon | also requires more ram to implrement |
11:52:41 | Llorean | I'll take "a little RAM lost" over "an entire feature lost" any day. |
11:52:47 | fml | JdGordon: true, that wouldn't be int..... But is that a problem? It's not hard coded, so everyone can adjust his own copy of the WPS |
11:52:51 | JdGordon | also you then need to put a limit on the mode count |
11:53:23 | bluebrother | why? |
11:53:31 | fml | JdGordon: it's like the named FM stations we have |
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11:53:49 | JdGordon | so hit the disk every time you open the mode menu option? |
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11:54:02 | fml | Now I'm starting to like the idea |
11:54:09 | Llorean | JdGordon: The WPS is buffered in RAM already. |
11:54:10 | bluebrother | the fm stations aren't read each time you open the presets menu |
11:54:13 | Llorean | JdGordon: So why would it hit the disk? |
11:54:30 | JdGordon | how are they stored then? |
11:55:03 | JdGordon | hmm... is the wps kept in ram? |
11:55:10 | fml | But it's only because I wouldn't use the modes anyway. So, for me, it's just a free cake. For others who really want it, it'll still be not very usable in this form. |
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11:55:37 | Llorean | JdGordon: You don't think we load all the bitmaps and text every time someone returns to it, do you? |
11:56:17 | JdGordon | .... the text from the .wps... is it kept in ram? I thought it was dumped and only the tokens were ketp |
11:56:20 | JdGordon | kept |
11:56:27 | Llorean | JdGordon: You can have actual strings in a WPS. |
11:56:34 | Llorean | You can have "Artist: %ia" |
11:56:44 | Llorean | Surely that has to be kept *somewhere* |
11:56:56 | Llorean | Unless that feature vanished while I wasn't looking. |
11:57:07 | JdGordon | yes, but are they referenced into the .wps text? or copied somewhere? |
11:57:17 | Llorean | Copied to the WPS buffer, I'm sure. |
11:57:25 | Llorean | But couldn't your list of screens also be copied to it somewhere? |
11:57:28 | fml | JdGordon: the tokes bear data with them |
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11:58:41 | fml | So you have a token "text", and the data "tralala" along with it |
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11:59:09 | JdGordon | not without wasting more ram... strings are copied into a new buffer.,.. |
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12:00:47 | fml | JdGordon: for the names, we can use the same buffer that's used for storing string constants in the WPS |
12:02:36 | * | JdGordon is starting to see advantages of having the menu, but still doesnt like the idea of losing the button |
12:02:54 | Llorean | JdGordon: using "Rec" gets you the button on a decent percentage of targets. |
12:03:21 | JdGordon | yeah, I'm not convinced rec sholdnt be used for something closer to its name |
12:03:30 | JdGordon | like changing to the rec screen perhaps :p |
12:03:33 | Llorean | Holding record *is* used for recording, already. |
12:03:43 | Llorean | But short-press is unused AFAIK. |
12:03:56 | bluebrother | it's "toggle backlight" ;-) |
12:04:42 | bluebrother | but isn't using a button that's currently unused in the wps too obvious as a solution? :P |
12:04:49 | JdGordon | ok, bugger it... lets make a camel... menu, setting to choose to use the browse button, context menu option for "return to browser" and anything else I forgot? |
12:05:00 | Llorean | bluebrother: It'd still be pretty close to "Toggle backligh" even with modes, since changing modes doesn't change any playback factor you can cycle around to mode 1 again |
12:05:24 | bluebrother | Llorean: well, that "toggle backlight" isn't an intended functionality from my understanding anyway ;-) |
12:05:36 | JdGordon | its more of a bug than a feature |
12:05:40 | bluebrother | so no loss here |
12:05:42 | Llorean | JdGordon: I'm sorry, what? That sounds like the exact opposite of what people are leaning toward... customizing a button, and slowing down getting to the browser even further? |
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12:06:12 | Llorean | bluebrother: It's not, but it's one people think is an intentional feature these days. But it's no loss for cycling WPS modes really. |
12:06:15 | JdGordon | you dont know the reference? camel is a horse made by a commitee... that option makes everyone happy |
12:06:42 | Llorean | JdGordon: Never heard that, no. |
12:06:43 | bluebrother | Llorean: peple do thing that? Oh my. I still agree with you |
12:07:08 | Llorean | bluebrother: Well even if they think that, cycling WPS modes is still "better" than pressing a functional button to bring up the backlight. |
12:07:25 | bluebrother | yep |
12:07:49 | Llorean | JdGordon: I honestly just thought you'd mistyped something with 'camel' though I couldn't figure out what. |
12:09:55 | JdGordon | ... next topic... the scroll padding setting.... :D |
12:10:29 | * | Llorean still thinks "setting a custom string" is the best overall way to go. |
12:11:18 | Llorean | No choice we have is liked by all, but at least the only objection to that one (afaik) is the standard "we've got too many options already" |
12:11:36 | bluebrother | well, maybe we should discuss if we want "hidden" settings or not. We already have some, and padding might be a good candidate for another |
12:11:48 | bluebrother | *if* we decide to use hidden settings at all. |
12:11:51 | JdGordon | we have a single 1 hidden setting |
12:12:00 | Llorean | I'm okay with hidden "theme" settings (settings that should always be dealt with in a theme.cfg file) only. |
12:12:08 | Llorean | JdGordon: Only one? |
12:12:13 | bluebrother | you sure? |
12:12:20 | Llorean | I'm pretty sure we've got at least two |
12:12:27 | JdGordon | which is the other? |
12:12:32 | Llorean | Filetype colors are one. The other I don't know of, but sdoyan called me on it when I said it wasn't possible. |
12:12:36 | bluebrother | which one is the first? |
12:12:50 | JdGordon | hold left/right in the browser which should probably go anyway |
12:13:26 | Llorean | JdGordon: What's hidden there? |
12:13:26 | bluebrother | why? This makes going to the root folder a pain |
12:13:33 | Llorean | Isn't that just "scroll lines for viewing"? |
12:13:45 | JdGordon | honestly I dont even remember what it does |
12:13:54 | JdGordon | I remeber fighting for it to being with but never change it :p |
12:13:56 | bluebrother | that's "screen scrolls out of view", and that is a setting |
12:14:01 | Llorean | holding left/right in the browser forces scrolling lines to scroll in the direction you hold |
12:14:33 | Llorean | It scrolls all lines, rather than just the highlighted one. |
12:15:24 | bluebrother | ah, right. But only if you triggered the scrolling −− if you're "just" in the browser holding left goes to the root folder |
12:15:37 | JdGordon | hold_lr_for_scroll_in_list is the hidden setting |
12:15:48 | Llorean | There's a setting for it? |
12:15:51 | JdGordon | defaults to true |
12:16:06 | JdGordon | that one actually changes the keymap in the browsers iirc |
12:16:23 | bluebrother | in any case we now have at least two hidden settings ... |
12:17:00 | Llorean | Well, I'm for colours being allowed to stay "hidden" since I think it should always be handled by themes, and I'm against this other setting staying hidden since it's not even documented as far as I know |
12:17:11 | Llorean | Beyond in the list of config settings, I'm sure |
12:17:36 | * | JdGordon doesnt mind documented hidden settings |
12:17:50 | Llorean | I'd actually say "spacer string" qualifies as a theme setting, since a valid size is *very* dependent upon font and how you display the strings (small viewport, large viewport, etc) |
12:17:50 | JdGordon | and would mind them even less if we could localise plugins |
12:18:02 | bluebrother | well, we could have hidden settings and configure them using rbutil |
12:18:20 | JdGordon | the argument against hidden settings is you cant easily change them without a computer |
12:18:39 | bluebrother | one could also argue that wps and font should get hidden as they are handled by the theme |
12:18:50 | bluebrother | oh, and the icon set is a hidden setting as well. |
12:18:52 | JdGordon | yep |
12:19:16 | JdGordon | it needs a nice choose-file/folder widget though so themes can be built on the dap |
12:19:17 | Llorean | I think most "theme" settings shouldn't be arbitrarily changeable. |
12:19:34 | bluebrother | well, you can change those hidden settings using cfg files |
12:19:35 | Llorean | Especially since with list viewports and such, they're just going to get more complex and easier to mess up being able to use the device without a reset. |
12:20:06 | bluebrother | plus, if we want hidden settings we could consider an "extended settings plugin" that allows changing them −− like gconf on gnome |
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12:20:14 | bluebrother | or windows regedt |
12:20:17 | * | JdGordon almost suggests removing theme settings from global_settings and the usual .cfg file completly |
12:20:36 | JdGordon | bluebrother: yes, but not until plugin localoisation |
12:20:40 | bluebrother | and where put them? |
12:20:48 | JdGordon | not sure |
12:20:56 | JdGordon | a .theme maybe |
12:21:19 | bluebrother | JdGordon: no. I don't see it as problem to have some regedt-like plugin that is not localized |
12:21:51 | bluebrother | why another file type? That way I can't easily restore my configuration anymore |
12:22:00 | JdGordon | i dunno |
12:22:16 | JdGordon | a simple config editor can be done very quickly if localisation isnt important |
12:22:44 | JdGordon | but there is still the problem with it being a nasty non-contectual list of cfg item names |
12:24:18 | bluebrother | that could get worked around too −− just make setting names something like general.filetype_color |
12:24:41 | bluebrother | and then derivate the location in the plugin depending on the name. |
12:24:51 | JdGordon | thats an idea which should be discussed regardless... |
12:25:05 | bluebrother | such a plugin could even do that dynamically based on a configuration file. |
12:25:37 | bluebrother | would have the advantage that it wouldn't need adjustment when a new setting comes in (apart from i18n when that's done, of course) |
12:26:01 | _lifeless | fixed lcd, there was wrong pixel format |
12:26:12 | JdGordon | great |
12:27:37 | * | JdGordon would be very much in favour of adding groupings to the setting cfg names |
12:27:56 | JdGordon | it would at the very least mean settings_list.c would get some order |
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12:39:06 | * | fml sees the chances of the scroll padding string patch to be committed raising (maybe after stripping off the menu code) |
12:41:24 | fml | linuxstb: shouldn't HZ be defined somewhere else? I find inclusion of kernel.h in wps_parser a bit weird. |
12:42:30 | linuxstb | fml: I find it weird as well - but using HZ in wps_parse.c is the weird part, rather than defining HZ in kernel.h |
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12:44:35 | JdGordon | why is using HZ in wps_parse.c wierd? |
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12:45:34 | fml | linuxstb: you may be right. It's used as a default for the timeout of sublines. We could use seconds as the unit and perform tranlation in ticks in the interpreting code. |
12:47:39 | linuxstb | JdGordon: Maybe "weird" is the wrong word, but it's not expected that a wps parser requires a kernel #define. I'm not saying it should be changed though. |
12:48:05 | fml | Err... It's for volume being changed. But the same function. |
12:51:27 | fml | Isnt' the code wrong anyway? IIUC, the value is given in tenth of a second. But the default value is HZ which is 100. |
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12:55:25 | fml | He-he. When we talk about WPS Nico shows up! Hello! |
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13:06:25 | * | fml thinks that the code for the button_volume token is wrong. The tag should take a value expressed in 0.1 sec. But the code interprets the value as 1/100 secs. So if you specify 2.5 you should get 0.25 secs, not 2.5. |
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13:06:34 | * | fml goes check |
13:08:51 | fml | Yes, my assumtion is correct |
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13:10:21 | linuxstb | fml: What does "2.555" give you? |
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13:18:11 | pixelma | that hold_lr_for_scroll_in_list settings was probably "just" made a setting for the Ondio because there holding "right" envokes the context menu (on a file/folder) but later this forcing the horizontal scroll was changed to a button combo on the Ondio (basically it's useless though) and I remember this disabling through the setting didn't work reliably or some other problems with it (at least as long as it wasn't changed to a combo the context me |
13:19:06 | pixelma | the context menu appeared sometimes and other times it didn't...) |
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13:22:55 | fml | linuxstb: 2.5 is very short. I have a patch and will upload it in a sec. |
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13:25:18 | fml | linuxstb: http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/9557 |
13:25:33 | simongmzlj | what does rockbox require for it to recongnize album art? |
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13:25:59 | linuxstb | simongmzlj: See http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/AlbumArt |
13:26:21 | pixelma | fml: why should I get .25 seconds if I specify %t2.5 ? Or am I misunderstanding what you mean? |
13:26:35 | simongmzlj | linuxstb: perfect, thank you. feel stupid for not finding it myself :D |
13:29:12 | linuxstb | fml: Shouldn't TIMEOUT_UNIT be defined in terms of HZ? And if it's only used in gwps-common.c (i.e. isn't a public value), it can be defined there. |
13:30:16 | linuxstb | But "vol = 10" seems to also be reliant on TIMEOUT_UNIT... |
13:30:41 | amiconn | linuxstb: I would like to move the (few) variables from rangecoding.h to entropy.c (they are against the "no code in .h files" rule). Do you think that's ok? |
13:30:47 | fml | linuxstb: you mean HZ/10 in the define instead of just 10? Yes, that would be better. |
13:31:36 | Nico_P | fml: hi :) |
13:31:53 | amiconn | bytebuffer, bytebufferoffset and rc |
13:32:38 | linuxstb | amiconn: Yes, they should be moved to a .c Maybe the whole of that .h could... |
13:33:04 | JdGordon | is anyone else seeing LD rockbox(ui/.elf) before the rockbox .c files are compiled and thinks thats wierd? |
13:33:59 | fml | JdGordon: yes. Very weird. |
13:34:07 | amiconn | It's a side effect of the "call PRINTS" construction when used for more than one command per rule |
13:35:06 | JdGordon | can it be "fixed"? |
13:35:21 | amiconn | linuxstb: You mean pasting all of it into entropy.c? That's the only file using it... |
13:35:22 | * | JdGordon hasnt tried Zagor's new Makefile yet to see if its a problem there also |
13:36:02 | * | JdGordon has an incredibly crude open file/folder widget working which could come in handy.... |
13:36:15 | amiconn | JdGordon: No, the only solution would be to avoid it, i.e. have only one command per rule |
13:36:38 | amiconn | Or only have one message, printed before the commands |
13:36:57 | JdGordon | oh well... not really a big deal, a bit wierd because it used to work |
13:37:18 | amiconn | The cause is that 'make' evaluates all internal commands (and 'PRINTS' evaluates to 'info for gnu make 3.81+) before external commands |
13:37:34 | linuxstb | amiconn: Yes |
13:37:42 | amiconn | ok |
13:39:46 | fml | linuxstb: what do you mean by vol=10? Where is it? |
13:40:22 | linuxstb | fml: Sorry, I meant "val = 10;" in wps_parser.c |
13:41:15 | fml | linuxstb: yes, that's also a timeout. I.e. the default for sublines is 10 units = 1 sec |
13:41:34 | n1s | JdGordon: a file/dir open widget would be a major improvement in many places of rockbox. 1) remove backdrop selection from file browser context menu 2) easier setting of recordign dir 3) less typing when saving playlists :D |
13:41:35 | fml | linuxstb: err.... for the button_volume, I mean |
13:42:22 | fml | Anyway. I have to go now. Bye. |
13:42:29 | | Quit fml ("CGI:IRC 0.5.9 (2006/06/06)") |
13:42:39 | JdGordon | n1s: yeah, I've been wanting to make one for AGES... first attempt is a bad hack to dirbrowse() though... |
13:42:50 | JdGordon | trying to work out keypresses also |
13:43:30 | n1s | I had an idea of basically using the filebrowser but with a different context menu, is that similar to what you are doing? |
13:43:36 | JdGordon | atm I've got action_std_context being used to say "use this filename" so directories can be selected (or ok on files) but im nto sure it works well |
13:43:55 | JdGordon | yes, bypass the usual button and context menu handling |
13:44:59 | n1s | another place where that could be used is the playlist catalog which uses a custom list now with an arbitrary max item count. |
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13:46:29 | JdGordon | hmm... need to somehow add a "<new file>" to the top of the list if its being used as a save-as dialog |
13:48:01 | amiconn | linuxstb: Standalone demac didn't compile on cygwin... already fixed it locally. The linking step also needs -mno-cygwin, otherwise it throws "undefined reference to `__imp___iob'" errors |
13:48:34 | pixelma | bluebrother: around? |
13:49:26 | linuxstb | amiconn: OK, thanks. |
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14:00 |
14:00:27 | * | amiconn will now work on introducing demac_config.h |
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14:10:09 | JdGordon | does it make sense to allow all the usual browser buttons (i.e return to menu/wps, stop, volume, etc) in a saveas/open file dialog? |
14:10:33 | JdGordon | I have a feeling that it will just confuse things if they are allowed |
14:11:43 | * | JdGordon thinks the current filters system isnt good enough for it |
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14:12:03 | amiconn | linuxstb: What is ROCKBOX_PLUGIN meant for (in parser.h)? |
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14:13:16 | linuxstb | amiconn: Hmm... I think I first implemented demac as a Rockbox plugin, so I'm guessing it's left over from then. |
14:13:32 | linuxstb | i.e. it probably should never have been committed |
14:13:49 | amiconn | Ok, I'll remove it |
14:14:28 | * | amiconn wants this demac_config.h in order to be able to choose between 16 and 32 bit filters |
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14:38:18 | webguest56 | Hi all, sorry to ask this, but I'm quit sure it's not in the faq, I actually get an Ipod classic (maybe named ipod video on rockbox website?), and I need to make him work as a linux live cd. Can I make two partition, one bootable and the other with rockbox ? |
14:38:47 | domonoky | rockbox doesnt work with the ipod classic... |
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14:47:14 | JdGordon | http://pastebin.ca/1257639 isnt finished and doesnt work yet... but is the new code better than the old code? the enw code would let you choose exactly which known filetypes to display in the browser instead of the known groups or "all" or only 1 type |
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14:51:53 | amiconn | linuxstb: Do you think the vector math choice in filter.c should go into demac_config.h too? I'm undecided... (proper channel this time) |
14:53:08 | linuxstb | This is choosing whether to use 16-bit or 32-bit math, depending on target CPU? |
14:53:53 | amiconn | It will centralise several choices which are now scattered |
14:54:33 | amiconn | IRAM usage, inclusion of rockbox headers, ... |
14:54:59 | amiconn | There's a nice standard macro that allows to write a header which is usable by both C and asm files |
14:55:44 | amiconn | Stuff for C needs to go into an #ifndef __ASSEMBLER__ section, stuff for asm into the opposite |
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14:56:37 | amiconn | demac_iram.h will be removed |
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14:59:32 | amiconn | linuxstb: Btw, is there a reason why libdemac has two HISTORY_SIZE macros which aren't related? (one for the filters and one for the predictor) |
15:00 |
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15:01:16 | linuxstb | amiconn: I don't think so... |
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15:02:56 | JdGordon | can anyone think of a reason why the dirfilter would change (while the tree is open) other than by the quickscreen? |
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15:05:20 | amiconn | linuxstb: I think both history sizes could use the same value (it's just trading memory for speed), but it's your lib after all |
15:06:03 | amiconn | I want to move this into demac_config.h because it's probably not possible to use 512 when the filters are 32 bit. |
15:09:55 | linuxstb | amiconn: What are you suggesting? Combining them into one #define, or changing the names to keep them separate, but with the same value (for now) ? |
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15:10:23 | amiconn | That's what I want to know. Either would be possible |
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15:12:41 | linuxstb | I would say to keep them separate for now - i.e. change the names to make them unique, but keep them both as 512. |
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15:14:04 | domonoky | JdGordon|zzz: loading a cfg could also change the dirfilter.. |
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15:32:09 | pixelma | bluebrother: just asking now... I'm currently looking into preparing an M3 manual (got the platform file already) and now have a question regarding the button tables. During DevCon we said that we probably need another column for targets with a second button mapping - so my question is how to define another column in preamble.tex (I guess). Also, I think that these 3 columns tables could then be a bit wider in the pdf (less margin). Any ideas? |
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15:56:36 | bluebrother | pixelma: now back ... |
15:57:05 | bluebrother | check the btnmap macro in preamble.tex ... the .75\textwidth defines the width of the table |
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15:59:11 | bluebrother | the argument after that defines the columns of the table. Replacing the X in there with .5X.5X might do it. Not really sure right now though |
16:00 |
16:03:11 | bluebrother | pixelma: btw, what do you think about FS #9554? From my limited perspective the way Rockbox does it currently seems more logical, but I don't have an m3 |
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16:29:00 | bertrik | how do players 'normally' get first sound? |
16:29:39 | bertrik | the ams sansa v2 i2s doesn't look too hard to interface with |
16:30:09 | bertrik | should we add a "fifo stuffer" in some of the pcm functions? |
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16:36:52 | bertrik | I suppose that usually no codec is used to provide the data for an initial port, but simply a raw wav file |
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16:37:51 | * | domonoky is experimenting with the sd-driver for sansav2... |
16:40:24 | bertrik | domonoky, funman posted a patch last week that makes it boot correctly to the menu on my clip almost every time |
16:40:45 | domonoky | bertrik: yes, if have this patche applied.. plus more changes... |
16:41:23 | domonoky | there is still corruption... but now i have more than 20 bootups without bad - checksum... and a idea what might be wrong... |
16:42:24 | domonoky | the strange thing is, that the sd driver tells us RX_FIFO overruns, seemingly without a RX_FIFO_HALFFUL flag... |
16:43:48 | domonoky | funman tried to fix this with retrys... but that is still buggy... |
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16:45:31 | * | shotofadds hits commit on some nice NAND driver improvements for D2 / iAudio 7 users.. |
16:46:08 | * | gevaerts updates |
16:49:37 | * | shotofadds has some more disassembling to do before the DAX will work reliably, i'm afraid.. |
16:50:11 | gevaerts | I can always use it on my D2 :) |
16:52:28 | | Nick obo_ is now known as obo (n=obo@rockbox/developer/obo) |
16:53:19 | shotofadds | hopefully those Bad Checksum errors are a things of the past ;-) |
16:54:27 | gevaerts | Nice delta :) |
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16:55:45 | shotofadds | gevaerts: the old static LPT buffer was only being fully used on the 16Gb model, so the static buffer was rather wasted on everything else (including the M200 with its piddly 1Mb RAM..) |
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16:56:27 | obo | soap: I think so. Do you know if it happens if you shutdown before or after the half-way point of the track? Is your start screen set to resume playback? |
16:56:33 | shotofadds | RAM usage on the 16Gb model will be the same, but everything else should be anywhere up to 24KB smaller |
16:56:40 | gevaerts | So now it just allocates once on boot? |
16:56:47 | shotofadds | yep |
16:56:49 | pixelma | bluebrother: had a quick look at the preamble.tex but I am not sure if I'll understand that.. need to look more closely. I also try to think about how to handle the 2 different tables - am I right in thinking that we would need 2 different buttonmap table macros and then use one or the other in the single tex files (maybe opting for "remote")? |
16:57:16 | soap | obo, I'll create a reproduction recipe for you. I had assumed there was no way around it, so had not investigated deeply. Give me an hour or so? |
16:57:37 | soap | and, no, my start screen is _not_ set to resume playback. |
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16:58:11 | shotofadds | gevaerts: I'm not sure why doom doesn't start yet, though I think it needs the user timer which I haven't implemented yet. That or filesystem write access.. |
16:58:20 | obo | soap: sure, sounds good. |
16:58:27 | pixelma | bluebrother: about FS #9554 - I don't have an M3 either and no remote for my M5 but amiconn chose this way on purpose, guess he should comment... |
17:00 |
17:02:24 | pixelma | bluebrother: he says that the way the Iaudio OF handled this felt wrong and he always moved in the wrong direction ;) |
17:05:01 | amiconn | linuxstb: Does the standalone 'demac' program actually work for you? |
17:05:35 | amiconn | For me it compiles, but creates strange-sounding .wav files |
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17:12:31 | bluebrother | pixelma: yes, I guess we would need two buttonmap macros |
17:18:07 | pixelma | so something with a different name? |
17:19:09 | pixelma | or could the opting for remote already happen in preamble.tex? |
17:21:59 | bluebrother | hmm. We could make all targets with remote use a different macro with the same name. But are there any maps that without remote maps even for targets with remote? |
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17:25:05 | pixelma | maybe I'm slow today but could you rephrase the second part? |
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17:27:03 | * | gevaerts doesn't think that slowness is required to not understand that sentence :) |
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17:33:12 | * | gevaerts hands funman a ☕ |
17:34:32 | funman | it's very welcome because ☔ |
17:35:13 | gevaerts | ☺ |
17:35:45 | * | domonoky seems to have now a very stable sd-driver for sansa v2 (funamns changes + no CCU_IO + busy loop in sd_poll_status() (no yield))... |
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17:36:42 | funman | domonoky: nice, does very stable means never fail ? (what about the delays also ?) |
17:36:59 | domonoky | funman: as far as i can see, there could also be a problem with next_yield in the sd-driver, its global and uses in the thread and in the other functions... |
17:37:30 | domonoky | funman: very stable, means over 20 boots without a error.. but it still does the retry sometimes... |
17:37:35 | funman | could very well be since i copied this code without trying to understand it |
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17:37:48 | funman | domonoky: do you check for RX fifo overrun and DATA crc fail status bits ? |
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17:38:13 | bluebrother | pixelma: well, I'm wondering if a remote-enabled target also needs button maps without remote buttons, in which case we would need both non-remote and remote maps |
17:38:24 | * | bluebrother is kinda confused today |
17:38:44 | domonoky | funman: i uses your patch, which checks for overruns, and makes a retry. i think DATA crc isnt checked... |
17:39:38 | amiconn | Is that SD? |
17:40:32 | domonoky | amiconn: yes, internal memory which is accessd with a via a sd controller (pl180) .. |
17:40:42 | funman | domonoky: could you post your current diff somewhere please ? (I have a lot of attempted modifications but can't remember the results for each, except that no was perfect) |
17:41:24 | amiconn | On Onio (MMC) we neither check command crc nor data crc. I'm not sure whether the PP SD controller does that automatically |
17:41:26 | domonoky | funman: will do, although my current code is also full of other changes.. (mostly panics to check for errors)... |
17:41:29 | amiconn | *Ondio |
17:41:45 | funman | domonoky: cool, i like the use of panic to debug :) |
17:42:27 | funman | amiconn: some commands issued at least in the power-up phase of the SD card fail the (command response) CRC check, so we ignore it. |
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17:42:49 | pixelma | bluebrother: I've been told that some screens on e.g. the Archos Recorders (which have a non-lcd remote) don't have a remote mapping yet (some could probably get fixed). Would it be too weird to have a " - " or "n/a" in the remote column there? |
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17:43:16 | funman | it was said that the CRC bits of the response which contains the CSD register were equal (and wrong) on 2 models which answered a different CSD |
17:43:32 | domonoky | funman: my current modifications: http://pastebin.com/m70b5ef80 (remember to replace both bootloader and rockbox to test it). |
17:44:12 | funman | I have never had any problem with the bootloader so far |
17:45:09 | domonoky | but you inherit the state which the bootloader has set. (ie the CCU_IO thing) .. |
17:45:17 | funman | oh right |
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17:47:00 | funman | modifying the CCU_IO register might be needed with the 'original' pl180 controller (a.k.a for SD slot) |
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17:48:10 | domonoky | yes, it might be needed for v2s with external sd, but on the m200v4 it conflicts with the backlight.. (backlight goes out, when you switch to SD-mode) :-) |
17:49:09 | kugel | I wonder how much code is copied from ata-sd-pp |
17:49:41 | funman | I would say 90% |
17:49:45 | kugel | has anyone tried to use that file instead (including #include the proper ata-target.h etc) |
17:50:05 | funman | hu? what do you mean exactly ? |
17:50:27 | kugel | i mean to use ata-sd-pp for our ams sansas |
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17:51:00 | funman | That's what I did - except for using the PL180 registers instead of whatever controller is used on PP |
17:51:45 | kugel | so why do we have a a extra file? also I see some code in ata-sd-pp not copied to ata_sd_as3525 (btw: why underscores in that filename?) |
17:52:30 | funman | 1/ because Someone didn't factorize the common code |
17:52:42 | funman | 2/ because that code was not needed for the driver to run |
17:52:53 | funman | 3/ why not underscores? |
17:52:59 | bluebrother | pixelma: not sure. |
17:53:07 | kugel | underscores are totally uncommon in rockbox |
17:53:17 | kugel | for filenames |
17:53:29 | soap | first attempt at reproduction failed, obo. I shutdown @ the 30% mark in a 23 minute track, restarted and let the track complete and only the second entry counted as listened. This "double listened" issue happens to me all the time, though I'm not quite sure why. Will try another recipe. |
17:53:41 | funman | kugel: 1546 files in rockbox use them |
17:54:21 | * | bluebrother wonders if kugel is serious on that underscore claim |
17:54:43 | kugel | sorry, in the target/ dir it's uncommon |
17:55:04 | funman | 10% of the files in target/ use underscores |
17:55:13 | gevaerts | Rockbox has 372 c files and 338 h files with underscores |
17:55:21 | bluebrother | 61 files below firmware/target is uncommon? |
17:55:37 | funman | domonoky: indeed, very stable .. |
17:55:56 | obo | soap: currently the code should mark a track as skipped if shutdown occurs before 50%, and skip it entirely if it is resumed >50%. If the track is started afresh on the next boot that could explain it... |
17:55:59 | kugel | funman: and the other 90% dont |
17:56:08 | soap | linuxstb, yesterday you mentioned a test compile with the jpeg decoder in core - that does not appear to be a current flyspray entry - is this just your personal hack to check deltas? |
17:56:12 | funman | wow, a panic in fat driver : "Updating size on empty dir entry %d" |
17:56:13 | kugel | anyway, - or _ doesn't really matter |
17:56:26 | domonoky | funman: nice to hear... now to find out, what makes it stable :-) |
17:56:51 | saratoga | soap: is there an FS for a jpeg decoder in core? |
17:57:04 | linuxstb | soap: It was just a test - I've since deleted the small changes I had to make to get it to compile (it didn't actually do anything, it was just compiled into the core). |
17:57:06 | soap | obo, in my normal usage pattern I would never start afresh upon reboot - that is what is confusing me. |
17:57:33 | soap | linuxstb, that's cool - I was just curious if you had done that or if you had done more reworking. |
17:58:10 | obo | weird - I can only guess that there may be some spurious track changed events coming from the playback engine... |
17:58:12 | funman | domonoky: we should not return 0 in sd_poll_status if the bit we were looking for was set, but instead clear this bit and see if other ones are set |
17:58:34 | soap | I'll find a recipe - I promise. |
17:58:44 | amiconn | linuxstb: ping |
17:59:18 | domonoky | yes, and it could get confused if we get a timeout and MCI_STATUS is complety 0 :-) |
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17:59:43 | funman | it shouldn't, I think 'RX active' should be set at least |
17:59:45 | linuxstb | amiconn: I haven't tried demac for a long time - but it used to work... |
18:00 |
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18:01:43 | amiconn | hmm |
18:01:52 | linuxstb | amiconn: I've just tested demac and it gives me a .wav with identical md5sum to the original file (-c3000 created with mac 3.99) |
18:02:04 | domonoky | funman: if a init or something failed rc activ might not be set. It also isnt set when we get the Overrun.. |
18:02:10 | amiconn | linuxstb: On linux? |
18:02:25 | linuxstb | Yes. 32-bit |
18:02:30 | funman | domonoky: we could use -1 as an error, the 32 bits are not all used |
18:03:06 | domonoky | funman: yes, or some bit in the unused area.. |
18:03:07 | amiconn | Hmm, I'll try linux next (in a VM). Cygwin produces strange-sounding .wav files |
18:03:29 | linuxstb | amiconn: demac should also do crc checks on the decoded audio data, so should report decoding errors. |
18:03:43 | amiconn | It reported no error... |
18:10:46 | amiconn | linuxstb: Works in linux - very weird... |
18:11:27 | funman | domonoky: did you have a look at the DMA controller ? |
18:11:49 | domonoky | no, not till now.. |
18:15:26 | funman | I still have errors and very long delays |
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18:15:59 | linuxstb | amiconn: Maybe a binary/ascii issue? |
18:18:04 | domonoky | funman: yeah, it still seems to get oberruns sometime and has to retry..but its much better now :-) |
18:18:14 | amiconn | linuxstb: Indeed.... |
18:18:17 | domonoky | s/oberrun/overruns |
18:18:54 | amiconn | linuxstb: Does open() open in text mode by default?? |
18:19:02 | amiconn | (or creat() in this case) |
18:19:46 | funman | I'd suspect it is system dependant |
18:19:52 | linuxstb | amiconn: There's no such thing in Linux, and I've no idea what Windows does. But I'm guessing it might do. |
18:20:58 | * | domonoky mentions that RTC works nicely on his m200v4.. |
18:21:04 | soap | got it obo. 10 minute track, bookmarking on. Paused the tract at the 5:30 mark. Let the device idle shutdown. Restarted, hit "Play" from main menu to resume playback, final 4:30 of track plays. Both entries marked as "L" |
18:21:47 | obo | ooo, okay. I need to read up on bookmarking then :) |
18:21:48 | funman | domonoky: does it keep a consistent setting across reboots ? |
18:22:12 | soap | That is very likely the situation which does it to me normally, as I frequently listen to long tracks, and frequently pause in the middle when someone interrupts me. |
18:22:14 | domonoky | funman: yes, even across AAA battery replacements :-) |
18:22:23 | soap | I'll attempt the exact same recipe w/o bookmarking. |
18:22:23 | funman | hehe :) |
18:23:28 | | Quit kugel_ ("ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]") |
18:24:41 | soap | Different subject - what codepage are Linux FAT32 filenames in by default? Filenames with "extended characters" created by Windows display fine in Rockbox when using the Latin codepage option. Filenames with "extended characters" created by Ubuntu do not display correctly in Rockbox be the codepage Latin or UTF-8. I'm using unifont. |
18:25:57 | amiconn | It depends on how you mount it |
18:26:08 | amiconn | On disk, VFAT is *always* UCS-2 |
18:26:11 | gevaerts | soap: mount(8) tells me that they are in unicode on disk |
18:26:48 | linuxstb | soap: Have you tried looking at your disk in a Windows machine? Sounds like Ubuntu is doing something wrong. |
18:27:06 | gevaerts | What your linux system translates them to depends on the iocharset mount option, which IIRC defaults to whatever LC_CTYPE is set to |
18:27:20 | soap | I guess I can get a windows machine. |
18:27:30 | * | gevaerts suspecs a mismatch between ubuntu systemwide options and specific user options |
18:27:34 | funman | mount it with -o utf8 on Linux |
18:28:24 | amiconn | linuxstb: Thanks for the hint - problem fixed :) |
18:29:15 | soap | codepage is currently cp437 |
18:29:26 | soap | iocharset is iso8859-1 |
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18:29:53 | gevaerts | What does locale say about LC_CTYPE? |
18:30:29 | kugel_ | jhMikeS: do you like the fading? |
18:30:30 | soap | not sure how to check that. |
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18:30:43 | funman | soap: 'locale' |
18:30:45 | gevaerts | soap: just run locale without arguments |
18:30:50 | soap | ahh, "en_US.UTF-8" |
18:30:59 | soap | (I was getting there) |
18:31:10 | gevaerts | In that case you probably need iocharset set to utf8 as well |
18:31:14 | funman | I would change the mount options for vfat filesystems to include 'utf8' |
18:31:31 | soap | so mount it as UTF-8 instead of iso8859-1? |
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18:32:16 | soap | can do. Thank you. Repair = copy files off and back on? Or will I need to abandon what is currently on there? |
18:32:17 | funman | so mount it as UTF-8 instead of iso8859-1. |
18:32:23 | gevaerts | What you're doing now is telling things like 'cp' to use utf8, which then gets interpreted as iso8859-1 by the vfat driver and converted to UCS-2 |
18:33:06 | * | gevaerts thinks that this is actually OT |
18:33:06 | funman | domonoky: do you sometimes reach the panic in drivers/fat.c line 1530 ? |
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18:34:10 | domonoky | funman: yes.. |
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18:34:54 | domonoky | but that might be because we dont have write access, but i am not sure... |
18:35:24 | funman | I would expect write access to not be mandatory, for example if a hardware read-only switch is set (on other targets perhaps) |
18:36:23 | funman | weird since I would expect as well our SD driver to panic if a data transfer failed |
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18:38:05 | funman | I just formated my Clip to rule out a bug caused by linux' mkfs.vfat , and I reach the same pani |
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18:39:25 | domonoky | if this is caused by wrong data it might not panic... |
18:39:51 | funman | only if the datacrcfail bit wasn't set by a wrong data transfer |
18:39:51 | domonoky | before some fixes, i often got "checksum wrong" in the bootloader, and it didnt panic.. |
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18:40:19 | funman | in my diff, I check for fifo_full and fifo_half_full flags before reading |
18:40:44 | funman | I retry on no flags set / or rx_overrun (after clearing rx_active, rx_data_avail, data_block_end and data_end) |
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18:42:07 | linuxstb | amiconn: O_BINARY doesn't exist on Linux - see the way it's defined at the top of demac.c |
18:42:49 | funman | posix makes no mention of O_BINARY either |
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18:45:02 | domonoky | funman: directly before this panic, there is fat_readwrite(), so it might need the write access... |
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18:46:33 | * | domonoky corrects him self, this readwrite call takes the read path.. |
18:46:36 | funman | I can't believe write access is needed - more that this routine is used in both read & write modes |
18:48:22 | soap | obo - same thing happens with bookmarking off. |
18:50:18 | domonoky | funman: another interresting obervation: when i got the bad checksums in the bootloader, i let it count the retrys. it only got past the checksum check, if the retry_count was 0 ... |
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18:52:46 | domonoky | looked like we get wrong data when the retry happens. But i could not prove it... |
18:52:54 | funman | I just reached the data_timeout bit set |
18:53:19 | funman | quite chaotic .. |
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18:57:04 | linuxstb | Unhelpful: The Gigabeat S uses TFAT (bringing you here from #rockbox-community) - do you have any idea what happens if a TFAT partition is treated at FAT? |
18:57:44 | amiconn | That's documented somewhere on msdn |
18:58:09 | Unhelpful | linuxstb: i believe MS actually can tell you a bit about that. i think their docs state that files and directories you create during FAT mount may be invisible under TFAT. |
18:58:26 | amiconn | Iirc it's not dangerous, just directories created in FAT mode don't have the transaction protection even on a TFAT capable system |
18:58:41 | amiconn | They aren't invisible |
18:59:14 | | Quit gromit`` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
18:59:55 | Unhelpful | amiconn: rereading now. you're right, they're just not safe. there's also this: "In addition, TFAT directories cannot be deleted using a Windows desktop OS." |
19:00 |
19:00:32 | Unhelpful | they certainly don't *seem* to, but i wonder if any of these issues have to do with the "file not found" boot problem on beast? |
19:00:47 | * | domonoky still wonders why we get overruns in rx fifo for v2s even when we busy loop and dont yield.. *scratch head* |
19:03:07 | funman | too slow |
19:03:24 | funman | don't forget there is still the kernel timer interrupt running |
19:04:14 | domonoky | ah, yes. interrupts could delay us... |
19:05:28 | | Quit homielowe () |
19:05:31 | domonoky | are there more/longer interrupts expected when we run rockbox, vs the bootloader ? |
19:05:59 | funman | the second timer maybe .. but afaiu it's only used by the plugins |
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19:07:02 | funman | _looks_ much faster when disabling interrupts, but obviously the timeouts won't work anymore; and I still have this panic in fat driver |
19:08:28 | funman | by the way the tick timer is a bit too fast, we should do a precise mesurement (one day) |
19:08:45 | domonoky | do you still get retrys/overruns with the interrupts disabled ? |
19:08:55 | funman | I don't know :) |
19:09:16 | domonoky | put a panicf on the retry case, and you will know :-) |
19:10:34 | funman | something else to do: disable the 'fast' hardware power off, so we can use normally the power button (it's a bit in i2c register 0x21 iirc) |
19:12:04 | funman | domonoky: no, it seems transfer is flawless with irq disableds |
19:12:23 | soap | Ok, I know this has been answered 100 times, but why has USB not been committed for the non-sansa PP targets? |
19:12:35 | funman | I'm not sure how thread-friendly this is however |
19:12:42 | soap | So please forgive my stupidity. |
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19:16:08 | domonoky | soap: does it work reliably on non-sansa-pp ? we probably need some heavy testing before enabling it for ipods.. |
19:16:14 | amiconn | soap: It is broken |
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19:16:43 | amiconn | It causes dozens to hundreds of bus resets depending on the port you use |
19:17:09 | | Quit kugel (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)) |
19:18:20 | soap | that's right - the bus reset issue on some ports. |
19:18:51 | soap | Though I was under the impression Some USB ports = none, most = few, and some = many. |
19:19:17 | | Quit dany_21a_ (Remote closed the connection) |
19:19:31 | soap | And, last stupid question I promise, is the bus reset issue a data integrity risk? |
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19:19:52 | amiconn | I have no single port where I get *no* resets. Some cause only a few, but some cause so many that windows gives up and states that data was lost during write |
19:20:26 | amiconn | It also depends on the actual target (maybe PP chip, or maybe cable quality, or a combination) |
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19:28:52 | funman | This panic in fat driver was added by Zagor 6 years ago (r2853), I want to ask him what it means exactly. It's not very explicit to someone who doesn't know (this) filesystem(s). |
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19:30:32 | amiconn | If your file system is ok, this panic only comes up if some data processed by the fat driver is incorrect, i.e. the storage driver is buggy |
19:31:20 | funman | That, I had understood. I'd like details on what is incorrect in the filesystem |
19:38:00 | amiconn | It means that some call to the fat driver tries to update a dir entry which is empty. |
19:43:33 | Unhelpful | ok, 8 covers scaled with the area scaler i coded last night. #5 and #8 show pretty bad aliasing - the half-tone dots in #5 have regular lines across them, probably at area boundaries, and the lines on the dog's hat in #8 are completely lost. natural images without high-contrast edges, or images with primarily vertical or horizontal lines, do a little better - #4 and #6 are good examples. |
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19:44:10 | Unhelpful | link here, will cause a warning if you don't have startcom's CA cert installed: https://looking-glass.us/~chshrcat/area_scale_test/ |
19:46:22 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
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19:55:26 | saratoga | Unhelpful: is that using the same algorithm as the rockbox patch? |
19:55:53 | Unhelpful | saratoga: i've not examined the rockbox patch, but i believe it was stated last night to be an area average scaler |
19:57:02 | saratoga | Unhelpful: it does, but i'm sure theres a few ways to implement one |
19:57:14 | Unhelpful | this is my attempt at an area scaler with low memory footprint. |
19:57:51 | saratoga | ah ok |
19:58:00 | Unhelpful | it processes one input line at a time, using two buffers of 32-bit ints, which can be made the length of the input line, and one buffer of 8-bit ints, the size of the output line. |
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19:58:29 | saratoga | perhaps you can clarify this for me: |
19:58:33 | Unhelpful | area edges at 1/16-pixel-accurate (in the input image) |
19:58:45 | saratoga | if you do area sampling with only two lines, how is that different then raster sampling or whatever theyc all it |
20:00 |
20:01:10 | Unhelpful | saratoga: that's why two of those lines are 32-bit, not input-sized. they accumulate values from more than one row of input - one line accumulates scaled pixel values, the other accumulates the total of the scale values. when an entire line of output has been brought in, it scales it back down to 8 bits, and outputs it |
20:01:21 | Unhelpful | and, sorry, actually those buffers are all input-width size |
20:01:45 | Unhelpful | also, i think a see a bug with respect to area edges - perhaps that will clean up some of the aliasing. |
20:02:35 | | Quit toffe82 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
20:02:57 | saratoga | Unhelpful: how many rows of input are used to calculate each pixel of output? |
20:03:42 | Unhelpful | saratoga: however many would cover that output pixel, if you layed out an output-sized grid over the input image. |
20:06:34 | Unhelpful | it *should* be able to handle scale factors down to 1/256 each direction without overflows. smaller would need you to scale more than once, but wrapping it in a function that does that might be better code-size-wise than trying to fix it in this one |
20:06:48 | saratoga | so in the example above where its 455 -> 240 that would be two pixels? |
20:07:46 | saratoga | err two rows |
20:07:58 | Unhelpful | approximately 2+14/16 pixels, since it uses partial pixels when the area edges don't align perfectly |
20:10:48 | saratoga | ah that makes sense |
20:12:53 | Unhelpful | but if you look closely, there's a bit of an issue, in that with the partial pixels, i apply them correctly in one output row/column, but in the next one, i apply the scale for the "other portion" to the *next* input pixel |
20:12:59 | Unhelpful | that's the bug i'm fixing now :) |
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20:25:05 | Unhelpful | fixed, and replaced the old images with the corrected ones. aliasing is not really improved, the bug was not the cause of the aliasing, anyway. |
20:26:20 | Unhelpful | lanczos would probably do much to improve the aliasing. but i need to read up to be able to write one, and it will need more context. |
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20:28:03 | gevaerts | soap: if the USB resets are severe enough, the OS can decide to stop trying. In that case you have the equivalent of unpluging without warning |
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20:31:06 | bluebrother | hmm. Is Track Artist used in place of the Album Artist if the latter is empty (in the database)? |
20:32:45 | kugel | bluebrother: I think so yes |
20:32:51 | pixelma | thought so (but don't know) |
20:33:54 | bluebrother | so then FS #7129 can be considered done? |
20:35:09 | kugel | someone should double check before closing |
20:35:36 | * | bluebrother considers closing an old feature request for yet another strange playlist format |
20:35:40 | kugel | I'm fairly sure it already works like that. Yet I don't know why he reports that |
20:36:40 | bluebrother | because the entry is almost a year old? |
20:36:58 | bluebrother | I tend to assume the behaviour has been changed since ... |
20:37:24 | kugel | ah yea true 1,5 years already |
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20:39:11 | * | gevaerts wonders if he should now also build windows sims, or if his torturing of FS #9534 has gone far enough |
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20:54:42 | kugel | bluebrother: I'm just reading the rbutil wiki page. Can the 3rd issue not be worked around by installing the build before the bootloader? |
20:55:41 | bluebrother | well, that would still break in automated install when other stuff like fonts is about to get installed |
20:55:42 | funman | forum admins: is it possible to allow attachment of .diff/.patch files ? |
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20:55:58 | amiconn | linuxstb: Interesting test results: (1) Using 32 bit ints for the filter works. (2) 32 bit filter in C is only a little bit slower on ARM7 than 16 bit filter in asm |
20:56:10 | kugel | bluebrother: then install fonts etc before the bootloader to |
20:56:12 | kugel | too* |
20:56:14 | bluebrother | a better solution is to wait until diskutil remounts the player |
20:56:53 | bluebrother | well, it's only a workaround. It could also happen with manual install if the user is faster than diskutil |
20:57:11 | kugel | why is it unproper to install the bootloader last? |
20:57:14 | bluebrother | so IMO the only real solution is to wait until the player gets remounted |
20:57:16 | kugel | improper* |
20:58:00 | bluebrother | it is not improper to install the bootloader last. It doesn't fix the issue that installing the bootloader unmounts the player, thus leaving in a somewhat unknown state |
20:58:09 | linuxstb | funman: The general view is that patches should go on the tracker, not in the forums, which is why those extensions aren't allowed. |
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20:58:55 | bluebrother | so imagine a user installing the bootloader last and then trying to copy stuff. He won't find his Ipod anymore ... |
20:59:54 | | Quit dany_21a_ (Remote closed the connection) |
21:00 |
21:00:08 | kugel | I think the typical user would reboot the ipod to see if it worked before copying any stuff |
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21:01:10 | bluebrother | maybe. Changing the order still doesn't fix the real issue but works around it |
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21:01:12 | kugel | or, you could tell them to (wait for the) remount |
21:01:32 | gevaerts | bluebrother: In linux you should be able to find the mountpoint from the USB id |
21:01:34 | linuxstb | amiconn: Interesting... I assume 32-bit asm filter functions are next? |
21:01:48 | amiconn | yes |
21:02:19 | bluebrother | gevaerts: linux is not an issue as that doesn't require the unmount |
21:02:26 | amiconn | 92.6% realtime (up from 88.4), and that's only the first version |
21:02:32 | amiconn | (for -c2000) |
21:02:55 | gevaerts | bluebrother: I'm looking at the reds in http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/RockboxUtilityDevelopment#Resolving_mountpoints |
21:03:00 | funman | I have found a bug which makes plugin not link on swcodec targets with 2MB of RAM or less |
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21:04:16 | funman | in codecs/SOURCES libmusepack is built conditionally on MEMORYSIZE > 2 |
21:04:34 | kugel | bluebrother: adding more complexity and delay doesn't sound like the proper solution too |
21:04:41 | kugel | imho |
21:04:41 | funman | in (plugins|codecs)/Makefile plugins are linked against libmusepack unconditionally |
21:05:04 | funman | Since we can't do variable comparison in Makefile, should we create a LOWMEM define ? |
21:05:14 | linuxstb | funman: Zagor is rewriting all the makefiles, so it's probably not worthwhile spending much time fixing the current system. |
21:05:45 | funman | Ok, I'll make him aware |
21:05:52 | linuxstb | It's here - http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/9534 |
21:06:52 | bluebrother | there isn't more complexity by waiting for diskutil |
21:06:59 | kugel | regarding that wps tag discussion from earlier today: I agree with Llorean and the others removing the possibility to go quickly to the filebroswer is bad |
21:07:54 | kugel | I'd like to see a button combo, which doesn't only allow you to go forwards through the view modes but also backwards. I could imagine something like play+left/right |
21:08:00 | bluebrother | gevaerts: ah. Thought you were talking about the other issue ;-) |
21:09:08 | Unhelpful | i wouldn't mind seeing left/right as mode switch on targets that *also* have next/prev buttons... but maybe that's only because that's exactly what beast OF does. |
21:10:28 | Llorean | kugel: On many players holding "Play" is "Stop" so that wouldn't work well at all. |
21:11:11 | kugel | Llorean: wasnt't that (hold play to stop) removed from the e200 keymap because it's inconsistent to other targets? |
21:11:15 | Unhelpful | i see definite issues if a button that has a meaning when held is to be used as a modifier. :/ |
21:11:51 | bluebrother | kugel: all ipods have hold play to stop as there is no other button |
21:12:21 | kugel | anyway, it doesn't need to be play necessarily. Any free modifier will work |
21:12:55 | bluebrother | name a free modifier for all supported players ;-) |
21:13:43 | Unhelpful | it would pretty much have to vary player-to-player |
21:13:50 | kugel | why does it need to be free for all? sometimes consistency can't be achieved. Refusing that just because a modifier isn't available on all targets is stupid |
21:14:50 | bluebrother | well, you need a button or a combo. |
21:15:00 | bluebrother | so you need one ... |
21:15:12 | Llorean | kugel: e200, sure. But it's still used on the iPods where there are so few buttons it can't be put elsewhere. |
21:15:22 | Llorean | kugel: Basically, the iPods don't have a free modifier. |
21:15:51 | Llorean | I think there's going to, generally, be few enough that a "cycling" button can be used, rather than trying to make explicit controls |
21:16:06 | Llorean | Button combos are a *very* unneeded complexity here. |
21:16:58 | Unhelpful | Llorean: perhaps use one of the duplicate buttons on players that have enough, which would satisfy those who want it in one click, and put it in a context menu on all other players? |
21:17:12 | kugel | uh? I think switching the modes through a menu brings even more complexity |
21:18:03 | Unhelpful | kugel: testing for a button combination, in a way that is consistent and doesn't behave unexpectedly in terms of "natural" user expectations, is pretty difficult. |
21:18:16 | kugel | I don't think targets which are short on buttons should cause decreased flexibility on targets with enough buttons |
21:18:45 | Llorean | kugel: My current suggestion is "players with a spare button, use it to cycle" rather than "use it in a combo" |
21:18:58 | Llorean | Pressing the button is "next screen" and when you get to the last, "next" is "first" |
21:19:05 | * | gevaerts agrees with Llorean |
21:19:10 | bluebrother | well, the arguing was that it should be quick. A button combo isn't quick ... |
21:19:11 | Llorean | That's "short-press record" on a lot of players |
21:19:15 | | Quit Schmogel (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
21:19:16 | Llorean | It may be a different button on Gigabeat S |
21:19:23 | Llorean | And on players without a spare button, you use the context menu |
21:19:48 | * | Unhelpful agrees with Llorean as well, if we can allow cycling either ways on players with two spare buttons |
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21:20:01 | kugel | bluebrother: a combo isn't quick? I regulary use the combo to get into the pitchscreen. I find it VERY quick, especially compared to going the way through the context menu |
21:20:09 | Llorean | Unhelpful: I don't think we need to waste that many buttons. |
21:20:30 | gevaerts | Unhelpful: how many modes do you expect> |
21:20:51 | * | bluebrother agrees with Llorean on this |
21:20:55 | Llorean | kugel: It isn't quick compared to a single button press. |
21:21:19 | kugel | quick enough to not call it "not quick" |
21:21:24 | * | gevaerts expects no more than three or four different modes, in which case one button is plenty |
21:21:29 | linuxstb | What will the context menu contain if there is only one mode in the WPS? |
21:21:40 | Unhelpful | Llorean: it's not exactly a "waste" on beast, and i'd be worried about what the opposite direction does if it's assigned to a directional |
21:22:18 | Llorean | Unhelpful: Don't assign it to a directional |
21:22:20 | kugel | using rec would interfere with my build using rec to quickly access the playlist though :/ |
21:22:27 | Llorean | The Beast is likely to have recording, assign it to its "Recording" button |
21:22:37 | Llorean | kugel: Unsupported builds are not our problem. |
21:22:42 | bluebrother | kugel: do we care about your build? ;-) |
21:22:45 | kugel | i know i know :) |
21:23:01 | gevaerts | kugel: we move that to the context menu :) |
21:23:15 | bluebrother | gevaerts: we? |
21:23:22 | Llorean | linuxstb: I'm suggesting it as a conditional option in the context menu. If your theme contains modes, there should be a "Mode List" option in the context menu that then shows all the mode labels (if we use strings) or a list of integers if we don't. |
21:23:41 | gevaerts | bluebrother: I mean Mr Someone, in this case represented by kugel |
21:24:03 | kugel | maybe I should just post that patch to the tracker, which utilizes the rec button for playlisting and get it committed before %mo :P |
21:24:13 | Unhelpful | Llorean: fair enough, the <- button doesn't seem to do anything in wps now |
21:24:34 | gevaerts | I'd go for two entries in the context menu : "next mode" at the top, and Mode List under that |
21:24:36 | linuxstb | Llorean: Why not just a single option that when selected does the same as the button shortcut |
21:24:45 | Llorean | linuxstb: I suggested that first. |
21:25:00 | gevaerts | That way mode switching doesn't require thought, and it's only two button presses |
21:25:14 | Llorean | It *seems* to be more widely preferred that you can jump to an arbitrary one (if we can "name" them within the WPS) since that can save a little time vs switch, check, context, switch, check, context. |
21:25:24 | * | bluebrother bets rec-to-playlist will loose against %mo |
21:25:24 | Llorean | I think if we can't name them, a "Next mode" option would in the end be preferred. |
21:25:41 | * | gevaerts agrees |
21:25:48 | Llorean | The "Next mode" option that does what the button does is *my* personal preference too. |
21:26:02 | kugel | bluebrother: also if it adds the possibility to quickly insert files into the current playlist in the filebrowse/database? |
21:26:04 | bluebrother | besided, how should rec-to-playlist work on players without a rec button? *g* |
21:26:18 | kugel | not at all of course |
21:26:37 | gevaerts | bluebrother: easy. Take another button that you personally don't use ;) |
21:26:44 | kugel | in the same way %mo won't work on targets w/o rec button |
21:26:56 | bluebrother | gevaerts: like "stop", that I don't use on the Ipod? ;-) |
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21:27:02 | Llorean | kugel: I find it pretty quick to insert files into the current playlist already. |
21:27:18 | Llorean | kugel: It will work, it'll just be slower. |
21:27:19 | bluebrother | kugel: wrong. %mo would work through the context menu. As the playlist insert / view does right now |
21:27:50 | | Quit robin0800 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
21:27:51 | kugel | bluebrother: of course. And I didn't remove to remove that |
21:27:51 | linuxstb | I've got a great idea, why don't we make the record button configurable? |
21:27:56 | * | linuxstb runs, very fast... |
21:28:19 | kugel | linuxstb: lol, there was actually a task doing that which got closed |
21:28:25 | | Join fml [0] (n=4fd3ecb1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-ac0d4fdd10c93386) |
21:28:26 | bluebrother | linuxstb: you should ping Rincewind about that! |
21:28:36 | * | Llorean brings out the pitchforks and (flaming) torches |
21:28:37 | * | gevaerts has a better idea. Button configuration in the WPS, so that each %mo mode has different button bindings |
21:28:42 | kugel | that rhincewind is still sad about the rejection |
21:28:46 | * | gevaerts runs even faster |
21:29:21 | Llorean | kugel: I don't know why. He was pretty much told the first time the idea was even brought up, we're not fond of configurable buttons. |
21:29:35 | Llorean | I guess we left the task open too long, so he got his hopes up? |
21:29:42 | kugel | probably |
21:29:44 | fml | linuxstb: have you looked at FS #9557? The fact that nobody has noticed the bug until now shows that either all users use the default or that the tag isn't used at all. I assume the latter :-) |
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21:31:08 | gevaerts | fml: your fix isn't entirely correct |
21:31:20 | * | gevaerts looks again |
21:31:22 | gevaerts | Ignore me |
21:31:48 | bluebrother | Llorean: I remember him getting really excited after devcon 2 years ago where a consensus was that we should do something with the rec button ... he even wondered if his patch was accepted by that |
21:32:24 | fml | gevaerts: because it's correct? Or simply ignore? |
21:33:01 | kugel | bluebrother: he also doesn't understand the dev's view |
21:33:10 | linuxstb | fml: I'm not sure if your patch is an improvement though - I would be tempted to simply do "HZ*10" in wps_parser.c... |
21:33:29 | linuxstb | Or rather, something else... |
21:33:38 | gevaerts | fml: I didn't read the patch correctly |
21:33:49 | funman | is there any reason not wrapping lines the panicf() way in splash() ? |
21:33:56 | linuxstb | fml: In fact ignore me as well... |
21:34:07 | | Quit amiconn (" bbll") |
21:34:32 | | Part Llorean |
21:34:59 | fml | linuxstb: I tried to unify how the timeout is stored for the sublines and for the volume button. For the sublines (old code), it's stored in 0.1 sec units. But the volume button (new code) did it in 0.01 sec units. |
21:35:02 | | Nick Bensawsome is now known as GrammarNazi (n=Bensawso@unaffiliated/bensawsome) |
21:35:31 | fml | I can ignore you both but the code should be corrected :-) |
21:35:36 | | Nick GrammarNazi is now known as Bensawsome (n=Bensawso@unaffiliated/bensawsome) |
21:35:45 | funman | well it seems there is wrapping code .. |
21:36:25 | kugel | what's the "panicf() way of line wrapping"? |
21:36:47 | funman | just look at panicf() in firmware/panic.c |
21:36:51 | kugel | \n didn't work for me |
21:36:56 | gevaerts | kugel: look at a line, panic when seeing how long it is, and start wrapping |
21:37:05 | kugel | funman: I can always look in the code thanks! |
21:37:44 | * | kugel doesn't find that very helpful |
21:37:54 | kugel | that answer that is |
21:38:08 | funman | well the code is explicit .. when we reach the end of line we go to the next line |
21:39:00 | funman | splash() seems to truncate and dump what was out of the screen |
21:39:46 | linuxstb | funman: splash() should split lines - what happens? |
21:40:06 | linuxstb | You also have a splashf() |
21:40:27 | | Join draft [0] (n=draft@a91-153-112-127.elisa-laajakaista.fi) |
21:40:44 | funman | can't open "/.rockbox/rocks/games" - perhaps I was wrong thinking the path was longer than what I see |
21:41:04 | draft | if i turn my iPod off with pressing PLAY/PAUSE button for long time and i'm in iPod mode.. how can i boot the machine completely so rockbox loader loads? |
21:41:39 | funman | well the directory exists |
21:42:28 | linuxstb | draft: The Apple firmware has no "off" option. You have to force a reset by holding MENU+SELECT |
21:43:18 | funman | I'm trying to launch chessbox, since all the plugins couldn't be built I may miss a file in .rockbox, but I don't know which one |
21:43:23 | draft | funman: thanks |
21:43:29 | draft | that was just what i was looking for |
21:43:29 | draft | :) |
21:43:48 | funman | draft: you're welcome ;) |
21:44:16 | | Quit draft (Client Quit) |
21:45:34 | funman | linuxstb: splash() calls splashf() and splashf() splash_internal() so both should split too long lines |
21:46:10 | linuxstb | funman: Looks like splash* only wraps on spaces though... |
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21:46:23 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
21:46:31 | funman | oh .. |
21:46:42 | kugel | doesn't splash* also center the text? |
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21:52:40 | funman | is chessbox meant to be built on another target than simulator, archos, and iriver ? See line 32 of apps/plugins/chessbox/Makefile |
21:52:45 | linuxstb | funman: chessbox is a special case (like rockboy) - it has a small "loader" plugin which is built on Archos, and then that loader plugin loads an overlay into the audio buffer. (the plugin buffer is only 32KB on Archos). |
21:53:22 | funman | The Makefile mentions 'iRiver target' but I suppose it means 'all but archos' |
21:53:27 | linuxstb | funman: I guess "iriver" just means "all other targets". At the time the plugin was written, there was probably only archos + iriver |
21:53:40 | | Quit meven (Remote closed the connection) |
21:53:47 | linuxstb | So yes to your question. |
21:55:38 | funman | Thanks. I suppose the problem is that the 'archos check' in plugins/SOURCES is 'MEMORYSIZE <= 8' |
21:56:55 | kugel | so my fuze will count as archos? |
21:56:57 | | Quit fml ("CGI:IRC") |
21:57:02 | kugel | uh |
21:57:54 | linuxstb | funman: Maybe the Clip will also need a loader for chessbox - we still need to decide how to allocate RAM between plugins, codecs, and core Rockbox. |
21:58:14 | | Quit esthar ("KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/") |
21:58:25 | funman | I was wondering the same, but wouldn't make any decision without the advice of experienced rockboxers :) |
21:58:31 | * | domonoky has at moment 214k buffer for audio on m200v4 and no plugin buffer :-) |
21:59:01 | * | funman will not tell anything except that he's looking at a starfield |
21:59:25 | domonoky | funman: how big is your plugin buffer ? |
22:00 |
22:00:15 | funman | 512k and 512k for codecs (they seem to load but there is no progress so I'm not sure if decoding happens) |
22:01:31 | domonoky | its difficult to see if codecs work without working audio. :-) how much buffer is left ? |
22:01:38 | linuxstb | funman: Decoding probably happens, but the pcm buffer never empties, so nothing plays? |
22:02:08 | kugel | well, seems we'll need Nico_P's patch |
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22:02:13 | funman | domonoky: how could I tell so ? (by the way the 'stack levels' are out of screen) |
22:02:20 | funman | linuxstb: s/?/./ ? |
22:02:41 | domonoky | funman: system-> rockbox info |
22:02:43 | linuxstb | funman: Implement the pcm driver? ;) |
22:03:15 | funman | domonoky: 'Buffer: 209KB' |
22:03:22 | funman | linuxstb: when the starfield will collapse :) |
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22:04:50 | gevaerts | Implement a dummy pcm driver, and use the oscilloscope plugin? |
22:05:54 | funman | I would prefer to implement the correct one first, we have loads of docs |
22:06:06 | linuxstb | funman: Have you looked at the "debug audio threads" debug screen? |
22:07:46 | funman | if you mean 'debug -> view buffering thread' it's empty |
22:08:38 | linuxstb | I'm sure it used to have "audio" in the name.... |
22:09:01 | * | kugel is not so sure |
22:09:12 | linuxstb | Yes, I think it's "View audio thread" |
22:09:30 | linuxstb | Should appear after "view buffering thread" (but not in the sim) |
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22:24:13 | | Quit kugel ("ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]") |
22:26:18 | jhMikeS | Try this patch. It uses hardware fading for the S: http://www.pastebin.ca/1258158 |
22:27:49 | funman | I just found a 'bug' in minesweeper: discovering an already discovered position doesn't discover all adjacent mines if the position is next to X flags, where X is the number of adjacent flags |
22:28:30 | linuxstb | funman: Stop playing with the plugins ;) |
22:29:35 | funman | :'( |
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22:30:17 | Unhelpful | jhMikeS: who is supposed to try this patch? ;) |
22:30:37 | * | linuxstb can't access pastebin.ca for some reason... |
22:31:10 | funman | the reason is "you shouldn't use pastebin.ca because some people can't access pastebin.ca for some reason", I suggest another pastebin site |
22:31:35 | jhMikeS | Unhelpful: anyone that wants to. it's probably better if they own the beast as well though. |
22:31:52 | funman | An helper to find why access to the FAT filesystem is buggy on sansa ams could be a plugin though.. |
22:34:11 | Unhelpful | jhMikeS: probably would help if i used fading. but i can turn it on to test. |
22:35:03 | funman | ooh .. the sansa ams filesystem contains 'weird' folders. I wonder if this is our problem |
22:35:09 | | Quit pixelma2 ("-") |
22:35:24 | | Join pixelma [50] (i=pixelma@rockbox/staff/pixelma) |
22:35:36 | funman | If you can decode dosfsck output: http://paste.ubuntu.com/73073/ |
22:36:29 | funman | nothing about 'dir entry' (I don't know what is a dir entry if it's not a 'DIR' C type) |
22:37:36 | gevaerts | funman: you mean the ##* ones? IIRC the sansa v1 also has things like that |
22:37:58 | funman | yes these ones, and perhaps the 'SANSA CL.IP' I hadn't noticed |
22:39:12 | | Quit bmbl ("Woah!") |
22:39:51 | linuxstb | funman: You have a partition table on your Clip? |
22:40:44 | funman | I had, but I formatted it with the OF. It used to have a superfloppy partition when I bought it, but now it shows a partition table with 1 FAT partition; I'm not sure if it's the one I had created however |
22:41:05 | funman | it's not. It's fat16 and I had created fat32 |
22:41:11 | pixelma | about the button combo discussion earlier - I also find combos slow and there are some targets where even button combos are limited and won't give you more ways to control (thinking of the Iaudios as worst example where they are basically impossible) |
22:41:26 | | Join amiconn [50] (n=jens@rockbox/developer/amiconn) |
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22:42:49 | funman | I'm not sure what fat_file and fat_direntry structs are. fat_direntry has a 'name' member but not fat_file; and only a fat_file is used in update_short_entry() |
22:44:54 | funman | strangely enough, update_short_entry() is only called from fat_create_dir() , fat_closewrite() and fat_rename(). And we have no write support for sansa AMS; perhaps at creation of the settings file ? |
22:46:49 | gevaerts | What do the tcc ports do? They don't have write support either? |
22:47:57 | funman | they have a dummy nand_write_sectors() returning -1 |
22:48:24 | funman | while sansa ams' write() returns 0 |
22:49:34 | funman | which probably means 'ok write succeeded, now if some bug happens just crash' |
22:49:50 | gevaerts | probably :) |
22:50:36 | funman | let's consider this 'fixed' |
22:51:02 | funman | now the hard question: can I disable all interrupts when transferring a sector from the SD card ? |
22:51:42 | gevaerts | I guess you can for now, but it probably isn't a good idea to do that in a polished driver |
22:51:53 | | Join wingmanz [0] (n=wingmanz@212.93.97.181) |
22:52:04 | wingmanz | hi |
22:52:32 | amiconn | funman: Why is there no write support? |
22:52:46 | funman | Someone didn't write it |
22:53:00 | * | amiconn would think that for SD it should be pretty straightforward |
22:53:14 | funman | should be, yes, especially with the PP code |
22:53:25 | amiconn | The nand driver is different, of course. Wear levelling... |
22:53:42 | wingmanz | today set up rockbox to my sansa player and learned how to make themes, now working on some.. kinda fun |
22:53:48 | domonoky | write acceess shouldnt be too hard, but first we should try to get read support really fixed :-) |
22:54:09 | linuxstb | Although bugs in writing could potentially brick the device... |
22:54:24 | amiconn | Well, isn't it fixed? The panic is due to rockbox trying to write iiuc |
22:54:48 | martian67 | hey is usb on portal player ever going to get sorted? |
22:55:05 | martian67 | i dont understand why they are holding it back for all targets, even though its only causing issues on one target |
22:55:06 | martian67 | :/ |
22:55:08 | * | amiconn takes out his crystal ball |
22:55:23 | gevaerts | martian67: it's causing issues on all portalplayer targets |
22:55:24 | amiconn | martian67: It causes problems on *all* PP targets |
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22:55:35 | martian67 | the wiki misleads me :( |
22:55:36 | domonoky | amiconn: i still get fifo overflows when reading (although thy are fixed by retrying) so something is still not right.. |
22:55:52 | amiconn | DMA... |
22:56:03 | funman | domonoky: with interrupts disabled ? |
22:56:17 | amiconn | Too bad that [IDC]Dragon never made a patch from his further cut-down work for bootloaders. One part of it was making the file system read-only with a #define... :/ |
22:56:24 | | Quit tyfoo (Connection timed out) |
22:56:26 | domonoky | funman: nope, didnt try that... |
22:56:31 | wingmanz | got some usb problems as well. when i plug in player while it`s turned on with rockbox, my win Vista just dont recognize the player at all. can access player only when plug in then turn on to default firmware |
22:57:12 | linuxstb | wingmanz: That's expected - Rockbox doesn't have USB support, so you have to use the default firmware. |
22:57:25 | linuxstb | (USB support on the Sansa) |
22:57:29 | funman | domonoky: I would like to commit a patch with interrupt disabled tonight, until someone writes DMA support. But I'm not sure how to handle CCU_IO register for targets with SD slots (e200/fuze/c200) |
22:57:52 | wingmanz | linuxstb: tnx for info |
22:57:55 | amiconn | Disabling interrupts can't be more than a debug solution |
22:58:07 | domonoky | funman: put it into a #ifdef HAVE_MULTIVOLUME ? |
22:58:17 | | Quit Nibbler (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) |
22:58:22 | amiconn | You won't be able to have sound with that... and imprecise tick is also undesirable |
22:58:28 | funman | domonoky: sure, but we need to check drive value for each transfer then ? |
22:58:32 | pixelma | wingmanz: it should automatically reboot into the original firmware though but it doesn't work in some builds (known bug, unknown how to fix it yet) |
22:58:36 | funman | amiconn: I agree |
22:59:02 | domonoky | amiconn: yes, but better that non-working... it allows us, do develop easier the other needed drivers... |
22:59:05 | wingmanz | well my sansa e280 just crushes when i plug in with rockbox. |
23:00 |
23:00:17 | domonoky | funman: why would we need that ? the CCU_IO thing is only in the sd_init() ... |
23:00:18 | amiconn | domonoky: Not really. |
23:00:28 | wingmanz | and got latest release from page.. eh whatever.. anyway rockbox is so much better than default firmware |
23:00:44 | funman | domonoky: how sure are you it's not needed for data transfers ? I didn't test this code on a SD slot |
23:01:00 | gevaerts | wingmanz: yes, that's what pixelma described |
23:01:46 | funman | if it doesn't harm transfers from the embedded SD, we can leave it in this position and modify it when we use the button led only |
23:01:54 | domonoky | funman: what do you mean ? CCU_IO is only set once, and it only may be needed on targets with external sd... |
23:02:36 | funman | domonoky: it's only set once in my _untested_ code, it may be buggy; who knows ? |
23:02:45 | domonoky | funman: ah, now i understand... no, i dont know if it harms the access to the internal sd.. it might... |
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23:03:33 | domonoky | at least the first time when i remove it, i got a big improvement in stability.. but i am not really sure... |
23:03:35 | funman | doesn't seem, but perhaps button light support on e200 will be buggy |
23:04:05 | domonoky | i think e200v2 dev will have solve this :-) |
23:06:12 | funman | I want to commit this: http://paste.ubuntu.com/73086/ (full of panicf) |
23:06:14 | jhMikeS | Unhelpful: it is backlight fading but using the hardware instead of threads |
23:07:21 | domonoky | funman: you could reduce the sd-stack a bit... i pushed it a bit because of a stack overflow.. but now its too big :-) |
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23:08:38 | funman | domonoky: is the previous value fine ? anything else about this diff ? |
23:09:18 | domonoky | funman: previous value was a bit too low, so maybe something in between ? :-) |
23:09:37 | domonoky | about anything else, im stil reading :-) |
23:10:23 | funman | if you agree, you can fix it and commit yourself (just mention that I used s/MMC/MCI/ for the registers to avoid confusion with a MMC and not SD controller) |
23:10:53 | | Join RomanGwizdz [0] (n=4556dc69@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-906a26749c802891) |
23:11:03 | | Quit merbanan (Remote closed the connection) |
23:11:15 | domonoky | i have to go to bed now... |
23:11:29 | domonoky | so please commit it your self, seems to be fine.. |
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23:14:22 | domonoky | maybe also comment out the yield thing in wait for state. this would now yield() while interrupts disabled, which might not be too god. |
23:15:50 | wingmanz | is there any info when jpgs will be supported on rockbox. no album arts :( guess have to convert them all to bmps |
23:16:22 | | Quit RomanGwizdz ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)") |
23:16:37 | gevaerts | wingmanz: as soon as someone implements jpg support in a way that's acceptable for the rockbox core |
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23:18:25 | RomanGwizdz | and have some questions |
23:19:51 | advcomp2019 | RomanGwizdz, what questions |
23:20:58 | | Quit domonoky (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
23:22:54 | RomanGwizdz | i created new theme for rockbox and I want to share, but I cannot attached my work, anybody can explain how to get access to upload page |
23:24:32 | gevaerts | RomanGwizdz: I'll add you to the list |
23:24:53 | wingmanz | RomanGwizdz: same here |
23:25:26 | wingmanz | now searching for info about sharing my themes |
23:26:13 | gevaerts | RomanGwizdz: done. Now please don't spam :) |
23:26:41 | RomanGwizdz | that means that I can attached this what i did? |
23:26:57 | gevaerts | You can now edit the wiki, yes |
23:27:45 | RomanGwizdz | is that means that now I have access to upload page? |
23:28:06 | RomanGwizdz | thank you |
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23:46:25 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
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