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#rockbox log for 2008-12-19

00:00:20amiconnIt is very possible that the sd driver works fine when unboosted, but causes error when boosted
00:00:49amiconnWAV needs virtually no cpu, hence no boosting. Flac needs a little more, but most likely still no boosting
00:00:50kugelyea could be
00:01:03kugelbut it's boosting upon rebuffering
00:01:07amiconnOgg is more demanding than flac, and mp3 in turn is more demanding than ogg (on arm)
00:01:32amiconnUsing dsp adds to that, and it matches the observations...
00:01:36ender`mp3 needs more than vorbis?
00:01:46kugelon non-multicore yes
00:01:47amiconnYes, on arm it does
00:02:16ameyerthen why did the rio karma get more battery life from mp3 than from ogg?
00:02:28*ameyer wanders back on-topic
00:02:29amiconnWhat architecture does the karma use?
00:02:30BigBambiIt depends on the decoder, the architecture, ...
00:02:59amiconnBesides, isn't the karma rather old?
00:03:11BigBambiThey may have had an effecient mp3 decoder, inneficient ogg decoger, ...
00:03:15kugelamiconn: flac is also fine when forcing boost
00:03:25ameyeramiconn: I think it has a PP5003. Some sort of PortalPlayer dual-core ARM thingy
00:03:31*BigBambi can't type or spell :(
00:03:55ameyerand it depends on your definition of old. 2003.
00:03:58amiconnI was thinking more about which codecs were available at that time.
00:03:58 Join einhirn [0] (
00:04:50amiconn(1) When was Tremor released? and (2) Rockbox has optimised Tremor a lot...
00:05:59mud-rbis there some way i can get an idea (order of magnitude is probably close enough) of how much memory is available in the plugin_buffer for various targets? the sim seems to fake it and I only have one player
00:06:37kugel512KB on anything higher than 2MB total ram
00:06:51kugelI think 8KB on <= 2MB
00:07:06mud-rbperfect, thanks
00:07:08kugeloh sorry, 32KB
00:07:31 Quit itcheg (" ajax IRC Client")
00:07:36amiconnThat is, 32KB on the old Archoses. Not sure how big it is on the low-mem ams Sansas
00:07:57mud-rbmaybe the sim isn't faking it too hard then, i just assumed there would be more variation
00:08:07kugelthat's not finally decided I guess. It'll likely depend on what's going to happen with the flash buffer patch
00:08:51kugelmud-rb: given that we try to have the plugins running similar on all targets I see no reason for variation
00:09:00amiconnThe sim tries be fairly correct, just that it gives you exactly that amount *in addition* the plugin binary (which is a shared object/dll in the sim)
00:09:37amiconnOn target, this buffer is shared between the binary and what you can request
00:10:08Zagorkugel: I'd the flash buffer patch has nothing to do with that.
00:10:12ZagorI'd say
00:10:37kugelZagor: why? I think it's a valuable option to free ram for plugins, isn't it?
00:11:28Zagorno, because it breaks so many other things. we can simply reduce the buffer size on flash targets and gain the same effect without changing any code
00:11:41amiconnPlugins are always allowed to stop playback if they want
00:11:52kugeliirc the watermarks are a problem
00:12:26amiconnThe watermarks are a problem on anything swcodec, just that problem doesn't hit as hard on bigmem targets
00:13:32n1shmm, i wonder if that watermark bug is still possible ro trigger
00:13:41kugelI mean (I remember some talk) that due to the watermarks there needs to be at least 512KB or so audio buffer, which isn't really given on our 2MB ams sansas
00:14:03kugeland that the flash buffering doesn't have to mess with those
00:14:15n1samiconn: btw, is that "dreaded shuffled playlist resume bug" you mentuioned earlier in FS?
00:14:19Lloreankugel: But we can set the watermark much, much lower, though.
00:14:27LloreanIt's not like any of this is set in stone.
00:14:32amiconn(1) The anti-skip buffer setting is meant as an *additional* safeguard against skipping. It should be possible to set it to 0 without ill effects if the disk is in good shape and the player is sitting on top of the table, i.e. not shaking
00:14:39Zagorkugel: the proper solution is to fix the watermarks, not add code that avoids them
00:15:32amiconn(2) Hwcodec calculates watermarks dynamically depending on bitrate and measured (!) spinup time (if available, otherwise uses a safe default). It does so for ages. Swcodec still doesn't afaik
00:15:49amiconnn1s: Not sure
00:17:05n1sthe only one i can find that sounds remotely like it is FS #9531
00:18:30n1samiconn: i think swcodec does adjust the watermark based on bitrate but it isn't working 100%, I remember being able to cause it to underrun before managing to spin up using flac
00:18:54*Zagor found
00:19:08n1sthis bug is FS #6479
00:20:22n1si really should retest that
00:22:04 Quit ender` (" Variables won't. Constants aren't.")
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00:27:32Zagor might also be interesting for Mr Someone writing a gdb stub
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00:31:55n1sjust out of curiosity, how would you hook it up to a computer? can it be done over USB?
00:32:25 Quit Nico_P (Remote closed the connection)
00:37:28Zagorn1s: I think so, yes. as long as the loaded images don't touch usb.
00:38:09n1sah, then it sounds like a pretty nice thing indeed :)
00:40:31***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:43:37 Join Tangent1 [0] (
00:43:58Tangent1i think there's an error in the ipod video rockbox manual
00:44:31Tangent1the commands for select + menu and Menu are reversed for the cube app in 11.2.3
00:47:43 Quit _Auron_ ("Infinity repeatedly denies rumours of plotting with zero to bring down the Universe.")
00:50:06lucentheh, postage is cheaper than I thought to send international
00:50:26lucentI sent a Sansa Clip to kugel and the postage was less than $3usd
00:50:40lucentit is a really tiny thing though
00:50:58lucentI was worried it'd cost 10 bucks or something
00:51:16Lloreanlucent: This is the sort of thing that belongs in -community.
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01:04:01 Nick mib_f8zilifj is now known as MarcGuay (i=d8ef55ba@gateway/web/ajax/
01:04:37MarcGuayTangent1: You can report a bug here in flyspray if you like.
01:05:13MarcGuayMissing link:
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01:16:58MarcGuaykugel: Is this comment on the VMWareDev wiki page "The image should be prepared for everything with rockbox. This includes having the 7zip (debian package p7zip) preinstalled, since the Rockbox sourcecode is in a 7z archive." a suggestion or...?
01:18:06pixelmadid someone else already move fixes over that should be in the release branch too? Maybe the updated translations, rasher?
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01:24:54pixelmahmm... those were before the branch
01:25:31pixelmaor not...
01:26:20n1spixelma: they were commited to both branch and trunk in rev 19471 and 19472
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01:27:48pixelmaah thanks, it was already dropped off the "most recent" list on the frontpage
01:28:15n1si think the frontpage only displays commits to trunk
01:28:43pixelmayeah, but you can follow the gaps in the revision numbers
01:29:02pixelmaas an indicator
01:29:45kugelMarcGuay: yes
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01:30:51kugelUnhelpful: what do you think about my latest pf comment?
01:31:38Unhelpfulabout zoom? i'm probably leaving it alone for now, unless somebody wants to work out how to rebuild cache on-the-fly
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01:32:06kugelI don't
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01:32:29kugelzoom is sufficient imho if the album art is preresized to lcdheight/2
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01:33:31Unhelpfuli'd prefer to never touch the zoom, if it's going to keep working by moving the camera. the result is equivalent to NN scaling, and is not pretty.
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01:35:31Unhelpfulpixelma: c200 is landscape, right? what's wrong with the tracklist there, is it just about space, or is there something else?
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01:35:51kugelUnhelpful: keymap issue
01:35:55 Quit aneqrs ()
01:36:05Unhelpfulohhh.. that i don't know if i want to touch
01:36:33*n1s would guess you don't :)
01:37:42kugelUnhelpful: you might want to checkout FS #8335 how I "implemented" a working resizing in pf, you'll maybe have a better overview
01:37:55n1sIMHO, unless someone steps forward and wants to work on getting PLA working, we should drop it and go back to regular keymaps were it's used currently
01:38:33kugelpla is working
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01:38:39pixelmayep, "down" is also used as "menu" so you can't move down because you call the menu instead. And since it's using pluginlib actions it's not easy to find a fix - without either breaking other targets or breaking other plugins that use this system or invent exceptions (which the PLA system wanted to avoid)
01:39:01Unhelpfulkugel: i've got that part working just fine, though... what i'm doing now is to get rid of the preferred sizes stuff entirely, in favor of scaling to LCD_HEIGHT/2 on load, and letting the user use zoom if they don't like that
01:39:04n1skugel: for various degrees of "working" ? :)
01:39:26kugelbut the variety of targets make it difficult to have a "all-in-one" keymap of course i *know* i don't want to be in this
01:39:42pixelmakugel: not practically and not when combining contexts as so many (almost all) do
01:39:53kugeln1s: name me an issue with pla except pf? I don't know of any other
01:40:18n1syeah, afaik metronome isn't usable at all on c200
01:40:33pixelmaand Ondio and Player
01:40:34kugelc200 seems to be a special breaker for pla :)
01:40:39n1salso bubbles had some issues but i think they finally got fixed
01:40:55pixelmabubbles has stupid exceptions - that being the first plugin which used it
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01:41:45kugelyou basically can only use it for demos as of now, and not even for all
01:41:52n1sI think using the core actions where they fit and defining your own keymaps where they don't would be sensible
01:42:37pixelmathe breaker IMO is combining contexts which will always cause "overlapping" for some buttons for one or the other targets
01:42:45n1s(not sure if plugins can use core actions currently though)
01:43:07kugeltext editor does
01:43:47 Quit n1s ()
01:44:05kugelmaybe pla should be reworked to export core actions which are available on all targets
01:44:28kugelinstead of defining dozens of contexts intefering each other
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01:47:37kugelfdinel: hey
01:48:14Unhelpfulkugel: or maybe only one "active" context at a time?
01:48:40 Part toffe82_
01:53:11kugelUnhelpful: in the current pla each context contains very few actions
01:53:15MarcGuaypixelma: 19476 is pretty wordy for something rather insignificant. I'm tempted to suggest we swing back the other way and take it out completely but maybe that's not great, either. I think it was Chronon who put it in?
01:53:41fdinelkugel: hi, I'll be back later, I gotta go ;)
01:56:16kugelpixelma: wasn't the consensus to move wiki text into the manual (and delete the wiki pages after) instead of the manual linking to wiki pages? Sorry if I'm wrong
01:57:07pixelmakugel: feel free to write the album art paragraph as there is none currently... ;)
01:57:42pixelmaMarcGuay: it was the result of a discussion earlier here when someone asked about it again (could be that i's already in yesterday's log). Explanation by Llorean, I'm too sleepy for discussing that now
01:57:56MarcGuaypixelma: I understand.
01:58:00pixelmanot sure who first put it in
01:58:15kugelNo, I don't want to get the manual people jobless ;)
01:58:27MarcGuayWordiness is part of the RB tradition, it won't be out-of-step with the rest of the project.
01:58:53kugelalso it sounds like a rather messy job to me, as the albumart wiki page is already kinda messy imho
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01:59:33*kugel doesn't want to admit that he's latex newb
01:59:57pixelmaalso, I think there are some things that should stay in the wiki (not sure that's a good example but different encoding tools for mpeg come to my mind currenty - that would make a looong paragraph in the manual and is ever changing)
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03:22:02Tornei'm trying to create a new plugin, as a subdirectory like some of the others. I've added it to SUBDIRS and copied one of the other makefiles with the names adjusted, and it only compiles my sources, it doesn't actually link the plugin
03:22:23Tornei'm wondering what i can possibly have done wrong. it adds itself to ROCKS in the makefile
03:23:52Aurix_Lexicodid you place your plugin's name into CATEGORIES?
03:25:39Tornehere's my makefile:
03:25:47 Quit lasser (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
03:25:55Tornei presume it's getting included, because make all does actually compile the source files
03:26:22Tornebut it doesn't produce the .elf or .rock and there are no messages about them in the make process :)
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03:40:49Tornemake -d believes it *has* made the file
03:40:55Tornebut it did so by executing no commands
03:42:34Torneaha. plugins.make doesn't work if none of your sources have the same name as the plugin
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04:09:37fdinelAnyone interested in getting "live" results of the sansa c200v2 disassembly? :)
04:10:52lucentfdinel: lol, maybe?
04:11:15lucentfdinel: I want to learn / observe more about how arm disassembly is done
04:11:58fdinelwell the LCD init routine is at 0x429C from what I can tell
04:12:18fdinelit uses DBOP as for the other ams targets
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04:18:03lucentfdinel: there's a big need to figure out the remaining GPIO pin usage on Fuze target at least
04:18:20lucentthe scrollwheel, and "hold" "home" buttons
04:18:30fdinelyeah though it seems quite harder because of the wheel
04:18:41fdinelI'm kinda lost in there :/
04:21:33lucentfdinel: really there's some issue with accessing data from Flash above a certain sector, this is caused by an unknown factor
04:21:45lucentit may be that we don't select the chip or something else
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04:28:35saratogais FS9662 really a bug? i assumed the sansa was supposed to work like that
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04:29:54lucentsaratoga: how do you mean? the behavior just seems inconsistent unless there is activity on the SD
04:30:32lucentoh my mistake
04:30:38lucentsaratoga: I looked at the wrong bug
04:31:11lucentsaratoga: I don't have a comment on bug 9662
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04:37:09webguest55hi all im a total newbie to rockbox,and i wonder what the rockbox is and used for.
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04:43:55webguest55wow Rockbox really rocks!
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04:46:49fdinellucent: with the fuze, how are buttons read?
04:46:59fdinelI thought we needed to use DBOP for that...
04:49:33saratogaDBOP is mostly for writing, it has only limited ability to read pins, and cannot use interrupts, so its not so good for buttons
04:50:07lucentfdinel: some of the buttons seem to have direct GPIO
04:50:11saratogawe thought it might be used for the wheel, just because we couldn't find it on the GPIO, but that seems somewhat unlikely since theres no obvious way to get interrupts out of it and you'd probably need interrupts to read the wheel
04:50:23lucentup/down/left/right/select work with direct GPIO
04:51:42fdinelthat strange I didn't manage to see those in the OF :/ probably lookking at the wrong place
04:54:26lucentfdinel: what command do you like to use to disassemble the OF?
04:54:39lucentare you cutting out the arm code first or working with the OF bin?
04:54:44webguest55Does iPod Classic support Rockbox?
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04:56:36*ameyer facepalms and says "assuming you're talking about the 6th gen ipod, no"
04:57:38ameyerif you're applying the new-ish term "iPod Classic" to an older iPod that wasn't called that when it came out (1st-5.5th gen), yes
04:58:29scorchewebguest55: the devices rockbox supports are on the front page..
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04:59:16webguest55i find model classic is not listed
05:00:08saratogaactually it is listed, mostly because people kept asking
05:00:17 Part toffe82
05:01:05saratogawe didn't used to list it though
05:02:07Unhelpful"Apple: 1st through 5.5th generation iPod, iPod Mini and 1st generation iPod Nano (not the Shuffle, 2nd/3rd/4th gen Nano, Classic or Touch) " seems pretty explicit, webguest55
05:02:24webguest55i insist that some models be missing
05:03:10Unhelpfulwell, it's pretty clear about the Classic
05:03:17saratogaperhaps it is you who is missing something
05:03:22saratogahow ironic
05:04:34lucentwebguest55: talking about these "missing" models is not going to make them supported any more than not being listed and not being supported ;)
05:06:02webguest55yup,maybe it is my fault
05:06:44saratogayes we know
05:06:53scorchewebguest55: the list shows what DOES work...anything missing doesnt work...this is the entire point of the chart
05:08:58lucentwebguest55: also we don't have any particular model to suggest that runs rockbox because none of the supported targets are in production
05:12:18webguest55they are all very old and outta stock for a long time
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05:13:59saratogayou're a little late to the party
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05:24:36fdinelfor the logs: ReadHold on the c200v2 is located at 0x3FD4
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05:39:53ameyerwebguest55: you can get supported players on the aftermarket or the SansaV2 players are going to be supported some time in the near future
05:40:14ameyerperhaps for questionable values of "near future"
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06:00:50fdinelameyer: I'm pretty confident it'll be "not so far" :P
06:01:10fdinelanyway, see ya peeps.
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06:17:50TouchOdeathI am wanting to access the hidden files/firmware in my insignia sport player in hopes of being able to modify them, whats the best way to approach this?
06:20:20wpyhTouchOdeath: please talk about it on other channels. This is for Rockbox only.
06:23:36lucentTouchOdeath: um, there was a forum post about something similar
06:24:20lucentTouchOdeath: anyways it's kind of off-topic since rockbox should read these files as I mention them, no problem
06:24:51TouchOdeathty very much lucent, you the man
06:25:34Unhelpfulshould i get some opinions/consensus on my current scaler work before committing? i consider everything before the hq-for-greyscale part to be fairly trivial... but that last chunk is not so trivial
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08:33:33MartynWhat is the least-capable Rockbox device?
08:33:54MartynAbsolute simplest, smallest image .. lowest number of buttons, etc...
08:34:04lucentif I had to guess? Sansa Clip
08:34:12lucentthat's actually pretty badass for what it is
08:34:18Zagorarchos player
08:34:24scorchelucent: clip is not a rockbox device...
08:34:45MartynOkay, I need to buy one and have it as a reference platform. One of the old Archos 20's?
08:35:04scorcheMartyn: reference for what?
08:35:12ZagorMartyn: the least capable is the player, which actually has a charcell display (not bitmap)
08:35:36scorchelucent: as i have said before, please do not reference the a
08:35:40Martynscorche : Reference platform for UI development.
08:36:04Zagorfor bitmap targets, I'd say the archos ondio is a good choice. b/w lores screen and limited set of buttons.
08:36:06scorcheAMS devices until they are on the front page unless you are referring to development stuffs
08:37:12Zagoron the other hand, I've been spotted saying I think the archos targets are due for abandonment
08:37:15lucentscorche: got a better suggestion than the Clip? tell Martyn
08:37:30lucentI'm willing to learn
08:37:41MartynWell, as long as they are supported for the moment, it makes a good target for "keeping things simple"
08:38:08MartynAnd I can get an ondio for less than $20 from Wierd Stuff
08:38:12*JdGordon chants "kill off the charcell targets"
08:38:13lucentMartyn: also if you're looking to purchase, what's your budget? Maybe I could help find a deal on something
08:38:44Martynlucent : I'm in the San Francisco / Bay Area .. cheap gadget central
08:38:46scorchelucent: the point of this is that the clip is STILL not a supported target, so suggesting it blah blah..
08:39:12JdGordondoesnt the c200 have a button limitation also?
08:39:14MartynOkay. I like the Ondio .. looks GOOD and simple.
08:39:19ZagorJdGordon: there's actually only one charcell target. I'm more in the "kill of the hwcodec targets" camp
08:39:38Zagoroff even
08:39:43MartynI'm hoping to have the Flash mockups finished by next week, and get some feedback on the look and feel
08:39:47JdGordonkilling hwcodec would be nice, would let us get rid of the button bar also
08:39:58MartynIf the mockups are in the realm of 'acceptable', I'll code up a framework.
08:40:14ZagorMartyn: I'm looking forward to it. Prepare for long discussions. :-)
08:40:42***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
08:40:53MartynWow .. the ondio is also -very- limited in other ways. Firmware size...
08:41:20ameyerI'm not a huge fan of abandoning anything, to be honest?
08:41:39MartynLearn from Python .. at some point it's worthwhile to deprecate
08:41:48MartynJava didn't, and they are paying for it in bloat.
08:41:53ameyerwhy not abandon greyscale targets so you can ditch all the grayscale cruft
08:42:08JdGordonlots more greyscale targets than hwcodec
08:42:36JdGordonalso its not about the display, its about the compeltly different audio mechanism (and the display for the charcell)
08:43:00lucentpardon my not knowing, what is "charcell" mean in rockbox context?
08:43:05ameyeryeah, and probably many more grayscale targets still in use
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08:43:16Martynlucent : Non bitmap display
08:43:32Martynlucent : Literally, a display with two lines of characters (or more) 20-40 characters wide (sometimes)
08:43:44ameyerI mean, if the archoses got ditched, I can't see a fork. If you ditch grayscale, I can see a fork happening.
08:43:47lucentthat's scary
08:43:49Martynso it can only display certain characters, which can sometimes (but not always) be programmed on the fly.
08:44:03ameyerdoes anyone still use the archoses?
08:44:12Zagorameyer: I do, in the car
08:44:15MartynEasy way to tell −− check the downloads :)
08:44:34MartynI'd be interested in seeing those statistics, actually ... #downloads of different platforms during an update
08:44:47MartynGives a good indication what platforms to concentrate on
08:44:57JdGordonnot really...
08:45:14JdGordonthe general feeling here is we work on what we want, not by how many downloads we get
08:45:29JdGordonespecially because the download stats are so rediculously inacurate
08:45:38lucentMartyn: so, Clip display is a tiny monochrome OLED display, maybe 128x64 pixels, but that's not charcell?
08:45:48ameyerare the archoses the only sh target?
08:45:50Zagorlucent: no, that's bitmap
08:45:58lucentthanks for clearing that up
08:46:06ameyer(I assume sh == Super H)
08:46:19JdGordonameyer: yes
08:46:30MartynJdGordon : Heh, since I come from a corp programming background (deadlines, etc) I'm used to things being the other way around.
08:47:10ZagorMartyn: refreshing, eh? :)
08:47:22MartynWell, yes and no.
08:47:32MartynSome of the principles of structured programming -are- good.
08:47:37MartynEven in an open source / open dev project.
08:47:38 Quit lucent ("bbl")
08:48:05JdGordonlucent: are charcell displays
08:48:17ameyerwhen was the last supported archos target discontinued?
08:48:23Martyne.g. I'll pick something to work on, get some consensus, and then actually still work the way I always have. Plan it out, architect it, look at the potential impact on other codepaths, then code.
08:48:33Zagorwell, most rockbox devs do programming for a living too
08:48:55Zagorameyer: we have never discontinued a target
08:48:58JdGordonMartyn: what is this "plan it out" you speak off?
08:49:03MartynJdGordon : I have one of Crystalfontz wonderful USB bitmap displays. Good LORD I love those things.
08:49:17*JdGordon got 3 of them for free a few years ago :)
08:49:23MartynJdGordon : Heh... when working with OOP .. I even do *gasp* UML diagrams
08:49:28ameyerZagor: I mean discontinued by archos
08:49:48Zagorameyer: ah. that was quite a few years ago...
08:50:03MartynOh, I love being a Geek sometimes.
08:50:04ameyerafaict, 2003?
08:50:26MartynMy housemate -has- an Archos Ondio ... awesome.
08:50:34*Zagor looks into the time machine
08:50:39MartynWe'll have to see if we can get it working.
08:50:51ameyernot sure about the Jukebox Recorder, FM Recorder, Recorder v2, or Ondios
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08:51:26Zagorgah, "access to has been blocked by the site owner via robots.txt."
08:51:43ameyerah well, not important
08:51:54MartynWow, this thing is ... tweaky
08:51:57amiconnameyer: The Ondios are the newest. Btw, the Ondios are in no way more restricted than the other archoses
08:52:00MartynReminds me of the old Jukebox
08:52:17Zagoramiconn: don't they have fewer buttons?
08:52:17MartynThe first 20G PMP
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08:52:39ZagorMartyn: yeah those are quite alike
08:52:40JdGordonamiconn: come on.. really? small screen, almost no storage, hwcodec... no buttons,..
08:52:50amiconnZagor: I mainly thought of size restrictions
08:52:53ZagorJdGordon: "than the other archoses"
08:52:54ameyerso, what are the odds of any swcodec targets getting ditched any time soon?
08:53:05*JdGordon really should read whole sentences
08:53:16amiconnZagor: The Ondios have the same number of buttons as the Player
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08:53:24JdGordonameyer: ziltch....
08:53:58Zagoramiconn: right, I disqualified the player ince it has no bitmap.
08:54:30Zagorameyer: why would we?
08:54:32amiconnJdGordon: The screen is the same size as the recorders. I already mentioned the buttons. And they are hwcodec the same way as the other archoses
08:54:53amiconnAnd an MMC slot is a useful thing (regarding storage)
08:55:26scorcheamiconn: he didnt see the " than the other archoses" part and assume you were talking about for all targets
08:57:02JdGordonamiconn: yeah sorry, missed the last part of the senatcne
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08:58:33ameyerZagor: you could ditch some grayscale cruf by ditching some of the targets, although I can't see rockbox ditching over half of its targets, some of which (iPods, h1x0) are fairly popular.
09:00:08ameyerI think forking off the hwcodec stuff and going into bugfix-only mode might not be the worst idea
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09:00:37JdGordongreyscale doesnt make things any more difficult than colour... a reason to kill off hwcodec is because the playback engine is entirly different, so its almost 2 codebases
09:00:44JdGordonsame with charcell display
09:00:59JdGordonthe only changes for greyscale is the low level lcd drivers
09:01:09amiconnImo we shouldn't ditch any target unless (1) we want to introduce a fundamental technical change which requires it (imo very unlikely, and even then branching would be better) or (2) the target is abandoned (no active dev has one anymore, and it's unlikely that one will show up again)
09:02:04*JdGordon would have thought that any "killing off" would really be forking anyway
09:02:04ameyerJdGordon: aren't there libraries required for things like color->gray conversion?
09:02:20ameyerbut that'd be minor, I'd think.
09:02:36JdGordonprobably, but anything high up doesnt need to know about it
09:02:43Zagoramiconn: when I say "abandon" I really mean "branch"
09:02:56JdGordon"draw a blue circle" is going to be the same for both
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09:03:54ameyerand, for what it's worth, I don't think there's any feature rockbox doesn't have that I really want, other than perhaps better video support.
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09:04:31MartynJdGordon : And frankly it's "Draw a circle"
09:04:49n1sI think an argument for branching is that hardly any of the new features added are useful on the archos targets so we could keep a branch around and backport fixes to it untill we reach amiconn's (2)
09:04:58MartynJdGordon: Green, blue, blinking, all those things are attributes of circle. As long as the platform supports some kind of bitmap display ...
09:05:22*pixelma wonders when the last time was JdGordon had to take care of the hwcodec playback engine
09:05:27Martyn(god help me doing that on a char display ... imagine reprogramming the programmable chars to "draw" a circle. LOL)
09:05:36JdGordonyeah yeah... the blue was to show that there is no different
09:06:07ZagorMartyn: we do that already...
09:06:11amiconnn1s: I disagree
09:06:18pixelman1s: but branching makes it so that someone has to do the backport
09:06:28Unhelpfulwell, if the number of cells is <= the number of programmable characters, you can "do" graphics... though there will probably be some lines through it.
09:06:59ameyerfrom what I can tell, the color->grayscale conversion probably could use some tweaking, though.
09:07:29ameyerit's a bit on the dark side and seems to have some sort of weird flickering-style issue
09:07:45amiconnBranching means additional effort to keep things up to date. Keeping the archoses means we have a greater variety of targets regarding memory, colour depth, display size etc which help keeping code universal
09:08:52amiconnBesides, there are new lowmem targets in the works, so dropping the archoses because of lowmem won't be an advantage, rather the opposite
09:09:12Martyn*cough* If I may interject...
09:09:31scorcheMartyn: this is wont be talking over anyone ;)
09:09:35Martynlowmem targets are a question of not including certain amounts of code..
09:09:41Zagorvector graphics on charcell display:
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09:10:33MartynZagor : Heh, I did that on a watch for Fossil a couple years ago. Amazing what you can fit into a microcontroller + char display when you REALLY need to.
09:10:42amiconnMartyn: Not only. Lowmem means also thinking about how to implement a feature in a memory conserving way so that it can be included on lowmem targets
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09:11:10n1samiconn: i think the things people would like to crop them for in the code is charcell, buttonbar and the hwcodec engine basically, which can all be seen working nicely now but constantly needing to be taken care of when changes are done in areas that affect them
09:12:21Martynamiconn : Sure, but then it's usually easier to have #ifdef statements sitting in the code to branch the compilation one way for lowmem, and another for other targets.
09:12:32MartynSince a lowmem target is likely going to trade speed for code size
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09:12:57Zagoramiconn: actually the only thing unique to archos is the hwcodec and very low resolution. neither of which is likely to return in new target.
09:13:14Martyn(reading the cube demo code now .. it's actually pretty code)
09:13:28pixelmahow much more resolution is there on the Clip?
09:13:45Martynis the clip the one with the tiny OLED display?
09:13:47Unhelpfulameyer: flickering? i don't see how color->greyscale can "flicker", the values are calculated once
09:13:59n1sMartyn: yes
09:14:12pixelmaand the m200
09:14:21Zagorpixelma: only a little more: 128x64 vs 112x64
09:14:24amiconnZagor: Huh? The clip has almost the same resolution...
09:14:42pixelmaZagor: really? ;)
09:14:42MartynUnhelpful : Often 'greyscale' on an otherwise monochrome display is a question of the display controller changing the duty cycle on a pixel
09:15:03MartynUnhelpful : The human eye then "sees" it as a greylevel, but it's actually 'flickering'
09:15:04Zagoramiconn: exactly, which means the archoses are in no way contributing "uniqueness"
09:15:18amiconnZagor: Pixel aspect...
09:15:32UnhelpfulMartyn: we have a library for doing that in plugins, for ~7-8bit "greyscale", but i don't know if any of the 2-bit greyscale targets are doing it in hardware
09:15:34Zagoramiconn: haha
09:15:43Unhelpfuland if they are, it's not resolvable on our end, probably.
09:16:01Unhelpfulalso, i'm working on color->grey quality ;P
09:16:04amiconnAnd they're contributing a different cpu architecture
09:16:18MartynUnhelpful : Very likely not. The Sharp 128x64 monochrome display only has 1 black and 4 'grey' levels
09:16:43MartynUnhelpful : Which is good for text display (you can kind of antialias text on it) .. but horrid for just about anything else
09:19:24ameyerUnhelpful: it's not really "flicker" It's hard to accurately explain
09:19:40pixelmaAFAIU the greyscale library is fully software even on greyscale targets which provide 4 levels of "grey" (including white and black) but those "native" greys are used for most things, except jpg viewer, mpegplayer (plugins that use the greylib)
09:20:03Unhelpfulwe're using bayer dithering to deal with reducing 256 levels -> 4 levels, in the "native" 2bit case
09:20:09ameyerit's kinda like what happens when you point a video camera at a CRT display, although there's more to it than that.
09:20:23amiconnZagor: Oh, and I forgot another thing they contribute: a slow CPU, so they help in checking the efficiency of e.g. gui stuff
09:20:33Zagoranyone with a v1 sansa who feels like trying some builds? /me left my players at home
09:20:44pixelmaameyer: I guess you saw it on a Mini?
09:20:49MartynZagor: Sure. I've got one.
09:20:59MartynAlthough it's the 250R
09:21:06Zagoramiconn: we can call it the "amiconn" branch ;-)
09:21:08MartynBut I've already got the bootloader working...
09:21:10ameyerpixelma: indeed
09:21:47ameyerpixelma: what's so special about the mini in this case?
09:22:27MartynZagor : Which build?
09:22:30ameyer(FWIW, the only grayscale targets I have are the mini and the clip. I won't be watching anything on the clip any time soon.)
09:22:32amiconnMartyn: On the mini it's indeed a bit flickery, for 2 reasons: The lcd is rather fast, and its "natural" gamma curve is bent the wrong way 'round, so that the greylib has to do quite a bit of correction
09:22:50pixelmawell, it looks differently depending on the actual display, Mini is the worst I've seen
09:23:01pixelma^ ameyer
09:23:10ZagorMartyn: a lowmem build, to see if that causes similar bugs as on clip. hang on a minute
09:23:56Unhelpfulwait, we're having this "flickery" look only in greylib stuff?
09:24:05amiconnOn iriver H1x0 it works best across all mono/grey targets I own: slow panel, and less gamma correction
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09:24:53ameyerthe darkness issue might have to do with having to jack the mini's contrast way up to have a usable screen
09:25:07ameyerUnhelpful: jpegviewer and mpegplayer.
09:25:31amiconnmandelbrot too
09:25:43ameyerand plasma
09:25:56ameyerand I think the cube
09:26:01Unhelpfulameyer: i believe you're basically seeing greylib at work, then.
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09:26:45JdGordonpixelma: (reply for a while ago) my motives for forking hwcodec is gui based.. i was just using the playback engine as an example of why they should be (gui based as in the buttonbar and the charcell)
09:27:05JdGordonand on that note, /me is off... have a good w/e all
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09:27:25pixelmathen... "good" example
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09:29:00Martyndownloading and installing
09:29:13MartynWhat's the bug you're looking for?
09:29:14ameyerUnhelpful and/or pixelma: what exactly causes the flicker? Is the CPU too slow or something?
09:29:40ZagorMartyn: failure/crashing while playing mp3
09:30:04amiconnameyer: cube uses it on mono targets only, and native greys on 2bpp targets. fire also uses the greylib, as well as doom
09:30:06ameyerI still think buffering is screwy on the clip
09:30:08Martynshould it matter at all that this a Rhapsody model?
09:30:12Martyn(It's still a V1)
09:30:15ameyerah yes, doom
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09:30:22ZagorMartyn: afaik no
09:30:29ameyerI'm not 100% sure about the cube.
09:30:32Unhelpfulameyer: the flickering is delibrate, it's how we get more than 4 levels on greyscale targets at all, by changing the display contents back and forth between different values
09:30:40Martynallright, backing up my .rockbox
09:30:45scorcheMartyn: not at all...they are essentially the same
09:30:52pixelmathat's how the greylib works - it's cheating the eye by quickly turning the pixel black and white. If you have a fast display you'll see that
09:31:03amiconnameyer: As I said, native greys on 2bpp, greylib on mono targets. Cube needs black, white and 2 greys
09:31:07ameyernah, cube's a bit blurry
09:31:43ameyerUnhelpful: that doesn't really explain the "video camera pointed at a CRT" issue
09:32:07amiconnpixelma: It's not only how the greylib works, but also how the 2bpp lcds produce their native greylevels (internally)
09:32:25MartynInstalled and rebooting
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09:33:19Martynr14980M, corrent?
09:33:32Martynr19480M rather
09:34:23pixelmaameyer: do you also mean a row (or a bit wider) of distortion that sometimes moves up or down through the pictures?
09:34:50n1sMartyn: could you check the buffer size under System -> Rockbox info ?
09:35:01Unhelpfulthat's probably due to greylib's display switches happening while the LCD refreshes, i would think?
09:35:28ZagorMartyn: how?
09:35:39MartynBuffer : 0Kb
09:35:41ameyerseems quite a bit wider. It's almost like it's got white pixels that shouldn't be there.
09:35:57ameyerI'd guess... 10 rows?
09:35:58pixelmaUnhelpful: I can't remember the technical details but yes it has to do with the LCD refresh rate and can't be compensated for
09:36:13MartynYep, Buffer = 0KB
09:36:35n1syes, that will likely cause problems
09:36:41MartynZagor, I also don't see any DB .. files yes, but the usual "album/playlist/etc" is missing
09:36:45pixelmaameyer: yeah, that's what I mean, just couldn't explain it better...
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09:37:17ZagorMartyn: yes I disabled db in this build. it won't fit without more tweaks.
09:37:20MartynBattery: 7%
09:37:36MartynInt: 395MB/1.84GB
09:37:53MartynMSD: 7.41GB/7.41GB
09:37:59MartynBuffer: 0KB
09:38:04MartynAlbum Art: No
09:38:14MartynVersion: r19480M-081219
09:38:33pixelmaameyer: this effect is more or less visible, even depending on temperature. Sometimes it's almost not noticeable for me
09:38:46MartynZagor : Trying to play any MP3 file crashes
09:38:50Zagorah, the pcm buf is allocated from audiobuf isn't it?
09:38:56MartynZagor : HARD crash ... screen fades away
09:39:03n1sZagor: think so yes
09:39:22MartynI had to do the "two fingered reboot of death" (with the hold switch slide) to get it back
09:39:24*pixelma wonders whether we could drop the "Album Art" line in the info screen, now that resizing is in
09:39:43*n1s was just wondering the same
09:39:44Martyn<−− will now restore his favorite players original .rockbox
09:39:49ZagorMartyn: yeah, thanks. I have to free up some more memory.
09:40:09MartynOh, question...
09:40:12Unhelpfulpixelma: seems sensible. also, cleaning out the search-by-size stuff probably is, as well
09:40:32MartynOn the current 3.0 build, why does the Sansa have to boot BACK into the original firmware to do USB sync?
09:40:59Unhelpfulthere was some debate as to whether we might want to let WPS load a "customized" AA via that mechanism, but i think that if we do that, it should be via a string in the tag, and not sizes.
09:41:02pixelmaUnhelpful: you mean when searching for the bmp?
09:41:08MartynI noticed that sometimes, If I unexpectedly plug/unplug the USB cable I can see a rockbox USB image .. but then the whole thing is frozen
09:41:31Unhelpfulpixelma: yes, it still looks for cover.WxH.bmp
09:41:38ZagorMartyn: usb is software-based and our usb stack isn't stable yet
09:42:13MartynSo you simply call into the original firmware instead
09:42:17pixelmaMartyn: that's a known bug that in some builds the automatic reboot into the originl firmware doesn't work properly
09:43:25MartynI noticed .. it's interesing that when the usb cable is unplugged, it reboots :)
09:43:53MartynOkay, back to r19469
09:44:03Martynbuffer = 28Mb :)
09:44:47Martynnow, all I want for Xmas is a Sansa that can -charge- <and> play music at the same time. LOL
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09:46:45pixelmaever tried to hold Select while plugging and Rockbox is running?
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09:48:03pixelmanot sure how well it charges though
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09:48:15pixelmaUnhelpful: I could imagine that someone wants different sized albumart (maybe with different aspect ratio, combining back and front cover etc.) for different WPS, or trusts a PC app more to do the resizing
09:49:22Martynpixelma : Nice trick, thanks :)
09:49:26Martynpixelma : Charging :)
09:49:26Unhelpfulfor aspect ratios, like i said, extend the %Cl tag to have a string label for the AA, and try to load cover.<label>.bmp
09:52:09Zagoryikes, we have many framebuffer copies...
09:52:24Unhelpfulregarding the latter, there are definitely better scaling algorithms than the resizer is using, and maybe they're worried about battery life, as well
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09:55:54pixelmaI'd just not loose the ability to define which of the bmps to use (when there are different ones). If the label idea makes that easier codewise than what there is now, I'd be all for it
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09:57:30Zagorgahh! DIR_UNCACHED is not a proper name for a struct.
09:59:01Unhelpfulpixelma: i'll leave it alone, then, unless there's some strong consensus for or against. it's removed in pictureflow, in my repo, but pictureflow has never let you tell it which AA to look for, so i don't see a great loss, there.
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10:03:56Unhelpfullooking for an opinion on these:">
10:04:19Unhelpfuli like the vc dither a good deal, mostly because it doesn't look as obviously patterned
10:04:49n1syeah, i think vc looks niicer too
10:05:13Unhelpfulit'd be a free change, just replacing the bayer dither matrix in bmp.c with the void-and-cluster one
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10:08:55ameyerI agree on vc
10:09:09ameyeralthough there has to be some sort of cost
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10:10:32Unhelpfulameyer:, we use an array of dither values to do dithering. it's replacing one 16x16 array with another.
10:12:24Unhelpfulthe only issue i see is that we may actually want the bayer dither for some things... icons and the like. having *both* would not be free.
10:12:44 Quit __lifeless (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
10:15:23pixelmawhile I see the difference, I can't really say what I like better. In some parts (overall impression is better with vc but it looks to me that it's a bit more "blurring" the picture if one can say so)
10:16:36Unhelpfulpixelma: i get that impression a bit, too. it may have to do with the vc matrix tending to cluster together similar dither values
10:17:35scorchei agree...the center of the flower definitely looks clearer with bayer
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10:37:53*Zagor spots 394 #ifdef CONFIG_CODEC in the code
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10:40:18pixelmabtw. because it was an argument earlier - I could imagine the button bar being usefull on touchscreen targets
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10:42:29Zagorpixelma: possible, but rather extensively rewritten
10:43:12Unhelpfultry"> as well... there are also 2-5, but i think 6 looks best, so far
10:43:28Zagorkeeping code "just in case" is never a good idea anyway
10:44:08Unhelpfulscorche: i can see what you're saying... i think it's a good deal better in #6, but i'm still not sure if i'm seeing "pattern == clean" or an actual better picture
10:47:02ameyerneeds something like an animated gif that flips through the options
10:47:29ameyervc6 looks better than the first vc
10:47:42scorcheameyer: eazily done with 2 tabs and browser shortcuts..
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10:48:29scorcheUnhelpful: better, yes, but bayer still looks superior
10:48:32 Quit Seed ("cu, Andre")
10:49:04ameyerit's close between bayer and vc6
10:49:30Unhelpfuli should probably be writing down what values i ran the generator with, for these...
10:49:44ameyerit'd potentially help to see what the original looks like
10:50:04ameyerdepending on exactly what we're going for here
10:51:47scorcheand i would reserve all final opinions for when i look at it on device too ;)
10:52:06ameyerhrm, vc6 > vc, bayer > vc6, and vc > bayer.
10:52:23Zagorameyer: indeed the s1mp3 is/was hwcodec
10:52:26ameyerso basically, I'm not making much sense
10:52:31Unhelpfulameyer: stop going in circles! :P
10:52:46*ameyer needs sleep
10:53:13scorcheameyer: i wouldnt say that
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10:53:59ameyerwell, either I'm going insane or the difference isn't that significant
10:54:27ameyermaybe vc6 is better than bayer
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10:56:43Unhelpfulok, added orig.png and vc7-dither.png
10:57:02Unhelpfulgonna just put all these matrices on pastebin, if anybody wants to mess with them, they can
10:58:21ameyernot finding orig.png
10:58:43ameyervc7 looks better than vc6, IMO
10:59:30pixelmahuh? vc7-dither links to vc-dither for me
11:00:23Unhelpfulpixelma: might need a refresh, it was actually redirecting me back to vc-dither before i moved it to the right directory
11:00:34 Quit Seed ("cu, Andre")
11:00:44Unhelpfulmaybe i should just put the generator for these in core, and let the user tweak its knobs ;)
11:01:03ameyeronly issue is in the upper-right corner there's white pixels that maybe shouldn't be there
11:01:33n1si like the vc(6|7) best, they seem to be of pretty similar quality
11:01:47ameyeror not
11:01:49Unhelpfuli'd say vc7 preserves detail a little bit better
11:02:01Unhelpfuland has no white pixels in the top right corner?
11:02:09pixelmacan't get to the -7 one
11:02:10ameyerlooking at this from about 4 feet on a 9" screen isn't great
11:02:30Zagoryay, the chinese s1mp3 players use an 8-bit cpu. fun for the whole family!
11:02:41ameyerthe white pixels are there, but not really different from the others
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11:02:47Unhelpfulpixelma: the link, if it helps:">
11:03:03Unhelpfulameyer: top left, maybe?
11:03:15ameyervc7 seems a bit lighter than the original vc
11:03:23ameyerUnhelpful: yes, the other right
11:03:26*ameyer facepalms
11:03:28pixelmaUnhelpful: still redirecting me to the vc-dither.png
11:03:39Unhelpfulpixelma: shift-reload, maybe?
11:03:57Unhelpfulameyer: look at the bayer again, they're there, too.
11:04:15pixelmawell, doesn't help if the 7 vanishes from the link bar
11:04:22ameyeryes, they are. It was a mistake and/or I'm an idiot.
11:04:29*stsquad thinks the save_playlist_screen logic is wrong
11:04:33stsquad if (len <= 5 || strcasecmp(&temp[len-5], ".m3u8"))
11:04:38Unhelpfulpixelma: good point. no idea what's going on, there
11:04:57*Unhelpful wonders if we could have "both", for pretty cheap, by generating the bayer one on demand
11:05:14stsquadseems to say, always use the DEFAULT_DYNAMIC_PLAYLIST_NAME because the playlist will always end in m3u8
11:05:38Zagorgcc doesn't support z80, but sdcc does!
11:05:48Zagoranyone for an 8-bit branch? ;)
11:06:12pixelmaUnhelpful: opening in another browser helped (for now)
11:06:24n1sZagor: half of rockbox would probably need to be rewritten to work well on an 8 bit cpu
11:06:38Zagorn1s: indeed. hence "branch" :)
11:06:40stsquadANyone have any ideas?
11:06:56n1snot saying it isn't a Good Idea (tm) though :D
11:07:32ameyerZagor: I kinda hope you're joking
11:07:43Unhelpfulhere's the src, if anybody wants to try it with actual art:
11:07:47Zagorameyer: hehe
11:07:55Unhelpfuland of course, you have the bayer matrix, already
11:08:04ameyerand, fwiw, it'd probably need to deal with a 24 bit DSP of unknown architecture
11:09:41Zagorameyer: yup. 16 kiloword (24 bits) program memory and 16 kiloword data memory.
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11:12:52ameyerhypothetically speaking, would mpegplayer work on the clip once rockbox does?
11:13:31ameyerit'd be awesome and/or stupid if it did
11:14:27n1ssure it could
11:14:40pixelmait should (maybe does already?)
11:14:42B4gdergreylib works so I figure mpegplayer could as well?
11:15:30n1sdoom is more important anyway
11:15:36*ameyer ponders watching porn on a 1" 128x64 black, blue, and yellow screen with a line through the middle
11:15:42ameyeror whatever the size is
11:15:51pixelmamaybe not, but should be a small step from what the m:robe100 does. IIRC funman at least started working on it
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11:16:52*Unhelpful would *strongly* suggest using the hq greyscale patch to anybody who tries to test these matrices on hardware, obviously
11:17:31Unhelpfulpixelma: it does seem to be one of the few plugins that uses fancy images and does *not* use greylib
11:18:21pixelma"it" being sliding_puzzle
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11:19:01Unhelpfulsorry, yes, as you said in the other channel, sliding_puzzle
11:19:46Zagoranyone with a e200v1 who can test a lowmem build for me?
11:21:34Unhelpfulit would make a nice test case for working on scaled greylib, also... unless we already have something using greylib that loads bmps?
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11:24:28ameyerrockpaint only works on color screens
11:25:19ameyerooh, a feature I want: bmp viewer for grayscale targets
11:25:49ameyerI take back what I said about no features I really want
11:26:54scorchego ahead and code one up..
11:27:34Unhelpfullet me know when you do, then i don't need to write my own testcase for greylib scaling
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11:29:25ameyerI hate to make excuses, but I know virtually no C. Maybe if Rockbox was written in java.
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11:30:36ameyeryeah, I should learn C
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12:01:18*Zagor looks around for testers
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12:03:36UnhelpfulZagor: in maybe 30min or so, i can
12:03:53ZagorUnhelpful: excellent
12:03:59Unhelpfulwhat exactly will i find? ;)
12:04:17Zagorthe easter bunny!
12:04:38Zagoror rather see if it works, and can play mp3
12:05:14Zagorit's a test to see if the lowmem situation causes problems on other targets than ams sansas
12:05:31Zagorsome ipod owners would be welcome too
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12:10:24gevaerts_Zagor: I can test
12:10:32Zagorgevaerts_: which target?
12:11:13Zagorgevaerts_: excellent. just grab the zip and try it.
12:18:21gevaerts_Zagor: 325KB Buffer. It somewhat works, as in selecting an mp3 file goes to the WPS, it says it's playing, but nothing happens. pressing play/pause twice makes it start. It seems to stop now and then, in which case the same trick works to get it going again
12:18:52gevaerts_Also (maybe expected) I get the hardcoded WPS and not cabbiev2
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12:19:20Zagordid you install the whole zip?
12:19:47*gevaerts_ checks again
12:20:14gevaerts_Everything seems to be there
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12:20:35Zagorhow big is the pcm buffer?
12:21:10Zagorand in general, does the audio thread screen look normal?
12:22:59gevaerts_pcm: 82944 / 88200
12:23:26gevaerts_I'm not very familiar with that screen however
12:24:00Zagorwhat does the alloc and usefl lines say?
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12:25:07*gevaerts_ makes a screendump
12:27:26Zagorthat looks ok to me
12:28:51Zagordoes the time increase when playing? or is it completely stopped?
12:29:38gevaerts_Once I jumpstart it with pause/play, it looks normal
12:30:18Zagorah, and it works fine after that? no skips/artefacts or other bugs?
12:30:31gevaerts_Before that, time doesn't increase, it shows the "playing" icon, and the flash icon seems active (i.e. it's mostly showing but it flickers a bit)
12:31:44 Join Seed [0] (
12:32:29Zagortry waiting a while and see if the flash icon stops
12:32:40gevaerts_No skips
12:33:18gevaerts_After a bit of playing around it stops working altogether, so I have to reboot
12:34:53Zagorpanic or freeze?
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12:35:41gevaerts_No, it just doesn't seem to read the track any more (i.e. the pause/play trick doesn
12:35:52gevaerts_t work, and it doesn't get the bitrate or length)
12:36:30gevaerts_Also, I've now let it sit for three minutes, so I think I'm sure that it doesn't start by itself
12:36:53Zagorand the flash icon keeps flickering?
12:37:21Unhelpfulback. any point having another tester?
12:37:44gevaerts_Yes. Actually it's also mostly-on while playing
12:38:09ZagorUnhelpful: if you have time, please try and see if you get the same issues
12:38:29Unhelpfulnp, bayercalc can wait for tonight
12:40:26gevaerts_Zagor: it now switched to another track (first one ended normally), and the flash icon goes on a lot less
12:40:36gevaerts_Yay, Data abort!
12:40:48gevaerts_at 000096C4
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12:41:58ZagorI'd say we definitely have lowmem issues
12:42:06Zagorgevaerts_: that's in buffering.c
12:42:20gevaerts_Good :)
12:44:47Lssquestion: rockboxing an ipod from a virtualbox winxp install. bad idea? y/n
12:45:18scorcheLss: we even provide a linux binary for rbutil...why do you want to use windows?
12:45:35Unhelpfulstalls on inital play, i hear a clicking sound @ about 2Hz
12:45:44Zagorgevaerts_: shrink_handle()
12:45:56Unhelpfulpause/play gets me music
12:46:32Zagorthat gdb stub would be good now...
12:46:42Unhelpfulonly get default wps
12:47:09pixelmaLss: also, what kind of Ipod exactly?
12:47:18 Quit PaulJam (".")
12:47:40Unhelpfulcorrection, cabbiev2 didn't work, but iCatcher does
12:47:44B4gderLss: there's no point in complicating it, why not just use the native linux way?
12:47:49Zagorin fact I think it is line buffering.c:806
12:48:21Lssso formatting to fat on linux is ok?
12:48:25Unhelpfulstalled, no sound, no error, after switching to rockboxed WPS
12:48:44Unhelpfulpause/play starts it again
12:48:45pixelmaUnhelpful: I'd guess that the build has albumart disabled
12:49:06Zagorpixelma: ah yes, I disabled that. good catch.
12:49:32Unhelpfulmm, and it gives me the default because of the unrecognized tag?
12:50:18scorcheLss: have you looked at the documentation?...the instructions are for linux...
12:50:41Lssim scanning through it atm
12:50:42Unhelpfuldata abort @96C4 :D
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12:53:59Zagorno wonder the sim didn't catch it. for some reason it has 1.38 MB buffer, in spite of setting 2MB ram limit
13:03:47Lss < font url is bad btw might be a good idea to fix it
13:06:19pixelmahmm... the link is working for me
13:07:50B4gderworks fine for me too
13:08:04pixelmais that also something which is available from different mirrors? suggests so
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13:09:08Zagor gives me 404
13:09:26pixelmathe font package
13:09:42B4gdermaybe one of the mirrors is shaky?
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13:10:04pixelmaif you could get it from different mirrors and one of them is down or so...
13:10:30ZagorB4gder: hmm, is 404 too
13:10:51*B4gder tries to come up with someone to blame
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13:12:01B4gderdoes make fontzip work at all?
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13:12:24MarcGuay is empty...
13:12:32ZagorB4gder: yes
13:13:08pixelmaMarcGuay: not for me
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13:13:30MarcGuayRefresh cache? Or something beyond my knowing probably.
13:13:41B4gderZagor: not if I haven't built rockbox first
13:13:45B4gderNo firmware found @ rockbox.iaudio at /home/dast/rockbox-build/tools/ line 85.
13:13:50ZagorB4gder: aha
13:14:14B4gderthat's what the daily font builder does...
13:15:30pixelmaah, "newest" available font zip on the mirror I caught is a November 17 one
13:16:32B4gderyeah, the makefile overhaul must've broken this
13:16:53Lsshumm that was really painless
13:16:58Lssrockbox up and running
13:17:06ZagorB4gder: how did it work before? I did not change
13:17:25B4gderah maybe some other change broke it
13:17:44B4gderme aways
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13:18:37pixelmaI see;revision=19125 committed on Nov 17
13:19:54pixelmathought it was the wrong link for a moment but it is the correct one
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13:21:34Zagorpixelma: indeed
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13:24:35Zagoryessss, segmentation fault in sim
13:24:57Zagorbut it was in SDL :-(
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13:32:03Zagor(gdb) p audiobuf
13:32:07Zagor$1 = (unsigned char *) 0xb7f0aef0
13:32:12Zagor(gdb) p audiobufend
13:32:21Zagor$2 = (unsigned char *) 0x826c020
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13:36:27Zagorduh, that is the content. &audiobuf is a lot more sane.
13:37:34Zagorumm, no. /me needs coffee. and stop speaking to myself.
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13:53:10jhMikeSgevaerts_: any idea why the USB stack fails badly if trying to connect from within a debug screen? After the drive mount fails and you disconnect, further attempts to do a real connection don't work until reboot. This doesn't happen on one with an ATA bridge.
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14:06:37LambdaCalculus37In the beginning of Chaper 2 of the iPod nano manual, there's a blurb about not running Rockbox on the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th gen nanos. But at the same time, there's a warning about not attempting to install the bootloader on a 2nd gen nano in the "Installing the Bootloader" section.
14:07:09LambdaCalculus37Would it be a good idea to remove the latter blurb, or revise it to reflect the nano generations as in the beginning of the chapter?
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14:07:44*pixelma sighs (at the Installation chapter)
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14:08:11LambdaCalculus37pixelma: It does need a little work (the installation chapter).
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14:10:00pixelmathat's a bit of an understatement IMO
14:10:44LambdaCalculus37pixelma: I'm fixing up the iPod parts of it.
14:11:08pixelmaI really need to brush up my notes on that and ask for help of native speakers somewhere :\
14:11:42LambdaCalculus37pixelma: Native speaker right here.
14:14:00LambdaCalculus37Hmmm... another thing that I've noticed as well is that iPodpatcher now appears to unmount your iPod for you when you ask it to install the bootloader.
14:14:13LambdaCalculus37Well, on OS X, anyway.
14:14:55*LambdaCalculus37 wonders if iPodpatcher does the same on Linux
14:17:11pixelmaI think I've been told by linuxstb that this step still in the manual is not necessary anymore
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14:18:58LambdaCalculus37pixelma: I'll remove it, then.
14:19:36pixelmanote: I know nothing about ipodpatcher (other than "it exists)
14:22:22linuxstbpixelma: Correct.
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14:23:12LambdaCalculus37linuxstb: I've removed that step.
14:23:47LambdaCalculus37I've also added a warning that you may need to be root on OS X as well.
14:24:00linuxstbDo you? I can't remember ever needing to be root.
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14:25:46 Quit ender` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
14:26:08LambdaCalculus37linuxstb: Here, I needed to be root.
14:26:09pixelmaas I said, I think the chapter needs a lot more work. E.g. some steps to finish bootloader installation on the Iaudios are still only in the "manual install" part (and RBUtil is also not perfectly clear about it) and some things that I think one would like to know before are also somewhere hiding behind now etc.
14:26:53linuxstbLambdaCalculus37: Which version of OS X? Maybe Apple changed something...
14:27:06LambdaCalculus37linuxstb: 10.4.11 here.
14:27:36linuxstbAre you sure you had to be root - that there wasn't another issue (e.g. itunes open) ?
14:28:07LambdaCalculus37linuxstb: Let me try it.
14:28:53linuxstbYou can also check the permissions on /dev/disk* (the ipod disk device)
14:28:56*LambdaCalculus37 gets out his iPod video
14:30:46LambdaCalculus37linuxstb: Heh... iPodpatcher seems to work with no root access.
14:30:54*LambdaCalculus37 calls it force of habit
14:32:00n1sjhMikeS: great work on the Beast chargign patch, will try it out tomorrow if i can find the time
14:35:06LambdaCalculus37linuxstb: Should I keep the mention of being root in anyway, in case another version of OS X needs it?
14:35:35jhMikeSn1s: thanks. I'm looking to unload that code already. :)
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14:38:08linuxstbLambdaCalculus37: No, I think it will just confuse people.
14:38:52LambdaCalculus37linuxstb: Okay, out it goes.
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14:40:51***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
14:44:33LambdaCalculus37I was going to add this note to the manual as well:
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14:45:58n1soh, s/iP/Ip/
14:46:46n1sas per section 1.3
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14:51:13LambdaCalculus37n1s: Fixing up now.
14:51:57LambdaCalculus37n1s: That means all instance of Apple's "i*" has to be "I*"; e.g. Itunes, Ipod, etc.?
14:52:46LambdaCalculus37And ipodpatcher should be "Ipodpatcher" in the manual?
14:53:30Zagorfilenames should not be cased
14:53:47LambdaCalculus37Zagor: Right-o.
14:54:15LambdaCalculus37Zagor: What about the iTunes/iPod instances?
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14:55:14ZagorI remember we've discussed that in the past and said "screw their silly marketing casing", but I don't recall the exact reasoning.
14:55:29pixelmaI'm not sure there was a consensus, only discussions every now and then
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14:56:05pixelmaLambdaCalculus37: like when you changed it to iAUDIO in some places in the wiki ;)
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14:59:32ZagorRight now my gut feeling is that that using Apple's variant is the right thing to do, since that is the commonly recognized "logo".
14:59:41LambdaCalculus37pixelma: I know, I know... blame Cowon for writing it like that on their products. ;)
14:59:43Zagorat least where it doesn't cause technical issues
15:00:10n1sfrom section 1.3 in the manual "Manufacturer and product names are formatted in accordance with the standard rules of English grammar, e.g. “Ipod playback is currently unsupported”. Manufacturer and model names are proper nouns, and thus are written beginning with a capital letter. "
15:00:35Aurix_Lexicotried to build zenutils, but it fails. :/ any help?
15:00:40n1sso i think we decided on this sometime
15:00:53Zagorcowon seems to have an uppercase fetish overall
15:00:59Zagorn1s: looks like it
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15:04:11LambdaCalculus37n1s: So "Itunes/Ipod", then?
15:04:49n1sLambdaCalculus37: I would say that is what we decided, and it seems to be more common in the manual
15:05:55n1sah, maybe you should even use \playerman{} instead of Ipod
15:06:28n1sas that is more common, but since the text seems ipod-specific i don't think it matters
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15:08:16ZagorAurix_Lexico: what make are you using? I don't even have a Makefile in zenutils
15:08:24Zagoris zenutils windows-only?
15:08:36Aurix_Lexicoit uses cmake
15:08:50Zagorbut you ran 'make'?
15:09:00Aurix_Lexicocmake -g "Unix Makefiles" .. generates normal make files
15:09:04Zagordon't tell me cmake replaces gnu make
15:09:48Zagorhow messy...
15:09:59*linuxstb wonders how cmake slipped into Rockbox
15:10:17Zagorsvn log says "Add zook's ZenUtils to SVN"
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15:10:47LambdaCalculus37n1s: We have \dap{} there as well.
15:10:49Zagorand basically nobody touched it since
15:11:01*linuxstb also notices GetPot has a modified LGPL license...
15:12:01linuxstbmcuelenaere seems to have been working on it since.
15:12:19Zagorlinuxstb: modified, or just misspelled?
15:12:33linuxstbmodified - "no military use"
15:13:43Zagorthen that is not free software
15:15:30linuxstbYes, I know.
15:15:55Zagoror rather I think the nomilitary provision simply has no effect
15:16:44n1sLambdaCalculus37: yes, that works as well, it's just a matter of how specific you want to be
15:16:52linuxstbZagor: How so?
15:18:58LambdaCalculus37n1s: Here's what I have done to the install chapter for the iPod so far:
15:19:04ZagorLGPL section 10: "You may not impose any further restrictions on the recipients' exercise of the rights granted herein."
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15:19:52ZagorThough that might chiefly apply to redistributors. I'm not certain.
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15:20:05linuxstbI think it does - I was about to suggest that.
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15:24:22*domonoky reads the Call for translators, and thinks it might be difficult to find a native speaker of esperanto :-)
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15:27:29pixelmahmm... hanging build?
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15:29:00jhMikeShmm... hanging indeed.
15:31:47dionoeadomonoky: according to wikipedia, about 10 000 people are native esperanto speakers :)
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15:40:05n1sLambdaCalculus37: looks good to me, not really sure what you have changed though :)
15:40:59mcuelenaerelinuxstb: around?
15:41:11linuxstbmcuelenaere: Yes
15:41:30mcuelenaerelinuxstb: do you still have that copy of the Ingenic FTP?
15:42:01linuxstbmcuelenaere: Sorry, no. I deleted it a couple of days ago...
15:42:12mcuelenaereahh too bad
15:42:25linuxstbmcuelenaere: Did you read the comments about zenutils (about 30 minutes ago) ?
15:42:26mcuelenaereit seems ingenic deleted some files off their FTP and you had them
15:42:34mcuelenaerenope, I'll look in the logs
15:42:58linuxstbmcuelenaere: Didn't someone else (rasher?) mirror them?
15:43:14mcuelenaereI don't know, rasher: did you?
15:45:10mcuelenaereAurix_Lexico: did you got zenutils to compile?
15:46:58LambdaCalculus37n1s: I copied the information about iTunes to the Windows subsection, changed a couple of instances of "iPod" to \dap{}, and added a note stating that if bootloader install fails, to check that you have a supported iPod and try again if you do.
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15:50:30n1sLambdaCalculus37: ah, well as i said, looks good :)
15:51:00LambdaCalculus37n1s: Cool, I'll commit it shortly.
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15:56:20LambdaCalculus37n1s: Before I do, though, do you think I should also mention the 3rd and 4th gen nano in the first warning of the file (\opt{ipodnano} right up at the top)?
15:56:37n1sI'm not sure
15:57:05n1sit seems a bit misplaced anyway, we do not warn about "Classic" ipods in the ipod video manual for example
15:58:28LambdaCalculus37n1s: Actually, we do.
15:58:53pixelmaI would like to make it a checklist style introduction (for all affected players) somewhere at the top of the installation chapter (also Ipod "Classic", v2 Sansas and how to recognise them etc.)
15:59:09pixelmabut that requires a bit more time I guess...
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16:12:49*LambdaCalculus37 makes sure to have all the changes in both the trunk and the 3.1 branch
16:13:15LambdaCalculus37Revised just a little more:
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16:31:27gevaertsjhMikeS: No real idea. I'll try to have a look at it soon
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16:32:22jhMikeSgevaerts: Thanks. The FX and similar simply ignore the connection.
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17:19:21Hoe``on my iPod 5th gen (30gb) I've got a lot of duplicates in the database, so i delete the database_#.tcd files to start over from scratch?
17:20:03krazykitor just initialize the database again.
17:20:58Hoe``i tried that
17:21:48Hoe``it's impressively fast at indexing files
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17:22:35Hoe``this is my first new mp3 player since owning an Archos Recorder, those things were awesome, just the size of a toaster :)
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17:26:28*LambdaCalculus37 is going to commit his manual changes
17:30:29Lssdoes anyone here even remember the creative jukebox?
17:30:41Lssanyway fiddling with my rockbox 5.5g now
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17:30:57Lsstakes some getting used to but i think it works nicely
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17:43:16Hoe``it seems a little bit buggy, but i'm really happy with it. hell, the pen & paper theme alone makes it worth it :)
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17:59:09kugellinuxstb: I have a patch here making mkamsboot work for c200v2, can you look at it?
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18:01:20LambdaCalculus37Is there any reason why the 90-degree rotation can't be applied to Pictureflow on the Gigabeat F/X/S?
18:01:50kugelLambdaCalculus37: on which targets does it work?
18:02:40LambdaCalculus37kugel: It works fine, but I was just curious about having PF rotated on the Gigabeat.
18:02:57kugelOn which?
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18:02:59 Quit einhirn ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.")
18:03:07kugelI mean which target is rotated in of?
18:03:08LambdaCalculus37kugel: All three (F, X, S).
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18:03:31loswillioshi guys
18:03:47kugelLambdaCalculus37: I don't think there's any. But anyway, it's probably because of the font drawing, but that one could be stolen from mpegplayer
18:03:57kugelgiven that the creator had thought of it that is
18:04:05kugelmight just be his lazyness
18:04:22loswilliosI accidently formated and partitioned my ipod nano.. now it says I need to connect it to itunes to reset it
18:04:32loswilliosis there a way I can do that with linux?
18:04:50LambdaCalculus37Are you trying to install Rockbox on it?
18:04:54 Quit __lifeless (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
18:05:00 Join _lifeless [0] (n=lifeless@
18:05:02BigBambi_loswillios: There is a manual restore page in the wiki
18:05:02gevaertsloswillios: have a look at
18:05:09BigBambi_there you go :)
18:05:20loswilliosah, thanks
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18:06:15LambdaCalculus37kugel: That's why I was wondering about it. On the Gigabeats, Mpegplayer is rotated for video playback (of course), but displays the menu in portrait orientation.
18:06:23LambdaCalculus37Maybe something similar can be done for PF.
18:07:12*LambdaCalculus37 will look at the code later
18:07:52pixelmampegplayer and some other use a different way of drawing (and applying the rotation), don't ask me for details
18:08:53LambdaCalculus37pixelma: I know Mpegplayer, Doom, and Rockboy are rotated, but I'll look at PF and perhaps even Zxbox.
18:09:33kugelLambdaCalculus37: taking from mpegplayer should basically be a copy and pastejob I think
18:09:50LambdaCalculus37kugel: Perhaps, but I'll ask the opinion of other devs.
18:10:06kugelrotating would surely be nice, indeed
18:10:35LambdaCalculus37Especially because larger album art will look better in landscape mode.
18:10:46kugelLambdaCalculus37: jhMikeS implemented it for mpegplayer, so he's your man. I remember he said the rotated font drawing should possibly be in the core
18:11:04*LambdaCalculus37 summons jhMikeS
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18:48:44rashermcuelenaere: (for the logs) I have a mirror, yes
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18:50:28pineappleclockis the sansa e250 the only mp3 player you can still buy on Amazon that runs rockbox?
18:51:34linuxstbYou can't buy any player new that runs Rockbox.
18:52:38pineappleclockok thanks
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18:59:01kugellinuxstb: needs some review, especially the fist patch
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19:07:10mcuelenaererasher: thanks, but I already found the files I was looking for
19:09:10rashermcuelenaere: Alright. Don't hesitate to ping me if you need anything else
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19:10:08mcuelenaererasher: thanks. how long are you planning to keep the files?
19:10:55rashermcuelenaere: indefinitely, most likely
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19:16:10jhMikeSLambdaCalculus37: yessum?
19:16:51BigBambi_jhMikeS: Many many thanks for the charging work - it works wonderfully
19:17:07LambdaCalculus37jhMikeS: I was thinking... can screen rotation from Mpegplayer be applied to Pictureflow for the Gigabeat?
19:17:38jhMikeSBigBambi: welcome.
19:18:31Aurix_Lexicomcuelenaere: which file in the ZVM's firmware is the code that runs on the main CPU?
19:18:34jhMikeSLambdaCalculus37: I'd imagine so. Should every plugin that uses a portrait display implement it's own rotation?
19:19:37jhMikeSBigBambi_: you ran it on USB-only as well as main? what size batt?
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19:19:48LambdaCalculus37jhMikeS: Isn't rotation implemented in the core? Because besides PF, Zxbox can also make use of it.
19:20:33BigBambi_jhMikeS: yes, and 1000 mAh
19:20:34jhMikeSLambdaCalculus37: no. mpegplayer changes coordinates around and for fonts has it's own small rotated bitmap function.
19:20:56BigBambi_jhMikeS: I haven't done a 'full' usb charging test
19:21:16LambdaCalculus37jhMikeS: Ahh, okay. So rotation has to be implemented on a "per plugin" basis, then, am I correct?
19:21:20BigBambi_but it seems good when I use it - is there anything you would like me to look for?
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19:21:34jhMikeSBigBambi_: I was hoping to get a little better than retailos. It only ends up at about 4.07V unloaded after USB charge.
19:21:54BigBambi_hmmm, it seems funny on windows
19:22:26BigBambi_I have just plugged it into windows holding menu, and debug screen says charger absent
19:22:34BigBambi_I tried it before on linux and it was fine
19:22:37jhMikeSThat was the OF USB charge. I was trying to push it a bit higher.
19:23:00jhMikeSBigBambi_: The USB stack doesn't configure properly like that on windows anyway.
19:23:08*BigBambi_ dropped his beast
19:23:21LambdaCalculus37Shit. :(
19:23:23BigBambi_jhMikeS: So I should ignore windows and look at linux?
19:23:46BigBambi_It is OK, it was only charging, and seems fine. Fortunately no disk activity :)
19:24:31BigBambi_jhMikeS: It seems to be charging, but says charger absent
19:24:47jhMikeSBigBambi_: If linux configures it right, just try it there. So long as it knows it has 500mA to use it will charge.
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19:25:02BigBambi_i.e. I Charge has a value (86 mA atm), but if I unplug USB it says 0
19:25:39jhMikeSIf it thinks it only has 100mA, it uses the highest charger setting <= 100mA to at least not drain the battery so quickly.
19:25:40BigBambi_The battery is quite full (BP 4.066V) so 86 mA makes sense
19:25:50BigBambi_ah, OK
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19:26:26BigBambi_I'll plug it into my linux PC and see what it says
19:26:27jhMikeS4.066V should be seeing > 200mA if it knows it may charge.
19:26:29BigBambi_One mo
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19:28:05BigBambi_jhMikeS: Yes, linux is ~240 mA charge
19:28:26*BigBambi_ got beer on his beast
19:28:42*LambdaCalculus37 hands BigBambi_ a towel
19:28:54*jhMikeS thinks BigBambi should either put the beer away or the beast
19:29:16BigBambi_It was superficial splashing only :)
19:29:51BigBambi_jhMikeS: So should I wait for it to finish charging, then unplug usb, then see what the battery voltage is?
19:30:44jhMikeSBigBambi_: If you slip the main charger in real quick and then flip the battery switch off so it's just floating open, that's the most useful reading.
19:31:10BigBambi_after USB charging is done?
19:32:24jhMikeSyes. then reboot with above setup and look at the voltage from the bootloader.
19:33:19jhMikeSbecause batt switch off = 2.40V reading always. plugging charger = will start charging it higher
19:34:12BigBambi_I'm off out in 30 mons - if it hasn't finished by then, I'll do it later and post to the task
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19:35:38jhMikeSBigBambi_: ok
19:36:32*jhMikeS notices the charging indicator on the battery graphic matches the cabbie background image too well to see it clearly
19:37:12BigBambi_I didn't notice that - I spoend all my time staring at the battery debug screen :)
19:37:34*kugel finds the disasm he got from fdinel weird
19:37:50jhMikeSThe indicator is very bouncy with the shorter battery filter. (32 vs. 128 samples)
19:38:22BigBambi_Which does v4b use?
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19:43:50jhMikeSBigBambi_: all the patches use the length 32 one. perhaps a 1000mAh battery will not dip as much with HD activity. perhaps the internal and displayed levels should use different ones.
19:44:56BigBambi_jhMikeS: Pass! However, if you would like me to make any measurements, please just ask. I also have a 120 GB disk in it (and I haven't looked at the current draw for that w.r.t. the 60 GB one)
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19:46:49jhMikeSBigBambi_: Do an adapter charge afterwords and check the voltage after it settles (takes a few minutes to flatten). No worry about battery switches or anything there. Using the HD much will also prevent it from charging on USB.
19:47:22BigBambi_OK, will do
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19:50:10PhotoguyIs there a logical reason why videos converted via Winff have problems? The audio lags behind about 3-4 seconds!
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19:50:43BigBambi_WinFF uses ffmpeg as a backend IIRC
19:50:48BigBambi_and it has always been fine for me
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19:51:38PhotoguyDo you think it's Rockbox audi settings then?
19:51:42jhMikeSSometimes WinFF messes up the sync. Usually not though.
19:52:03BigBambi_Would that depend on the encoding settings or the input file, or both?>
19:52:35PhotoguyWhy ssometimes?
19:53:33jhMikeSBigBambi_: I haven't really found out a pattern. Changing the settings may help.
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19:54:37*jhMikeS had only had perhaps one go wrong.
19:54:52Nico_PjhMikeS: hi! have you started trying to figure out the IPU on the S?
19:54:53BigBambi_Odd, I've not had a problem with it myself, but I haven't done much conversion
19:55:15BigBambi_Photoguy: Is it out of sync on both your PC and Rockbox?
19:55:36PhotoguyI didn't check on my compute
19:55:40jhMikeSNico_P: I've looked at every module to some extent for imx31. I'm somewhat unclear on how to use it but then it hasn't been a focus yet.
19:55:59BigBambi_Photoguy: Ìt is worth checking, to try and see where the problem lies
19:56:18jhMikeSmpegplayer uses the timestamps in the file since that's why they're there
19:59:14jhMikeSNico_P: If I commit that patch, which only touches powermgmt.c in a minor way, I'll probably simplify the power code in general. I didn't want to rearrange it in that patch but the beast code can easily adapt to it.
20:00:20Nico_Pnice :) are you planning on taking suspend/resume into account?
20:02:08jhMikeSNico_P: I think I'll go with what amiconn also wants which is to have one loop that calls all the functions. Perhaps I'll include the possibility of an event queue which would be better at least for the beast.
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20:03:01*kugel cries
20:03:17Nico_PI haven't really followed those conversations, but why would the event queue be better for the beast?
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20:03:28*Photoguy sympathises
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20:05:41jhMikeSNico_P: Better response for setting the current (important for USB) and likely simpler code for detecting transitions.
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20:17:16slactSometimes after updating the database, i see some albums listing every track twice. This is on a 5G ipod, latest builds. anyone aware of this?
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20:21:06kugelI might have found out how to read buttons properly on the fuze
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20:29:24saratogakugel: theres a lot of AMS patches on the tracker, are any ready to commit?
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20:32:28kugelsaratoga: not sure myself
20:32:58kugelI would have said the button one, but it should wait since I might have found the correct way just now
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20:34:20kugelsaratoga: I think the buttonlight & backlight sw fading could be committed, they don't harm
20:36:07kugelsaratoga: well, they bring no major improvement (and buttonlight isn't even reliable), but it's better than svn imho
20:38:44kugelnot to mention that buttonlight doesn't work at all in svn
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20:45:21loswilliosis it possible to make rockbox pause the song when the earphones are pulled out?
20:47:27karashataloswillios, only on targets that support headphone detection
20:47:35domonokyloswillios: on players with the neccessary hardware, rockbox can do this.
20:48:38kugeldomonoky: We're possibly back at an isr for button reading, I analyzed the disassembly fdinel gave me
20:48:49loswilliosI have an ipod nano, but I haven't found an option to enable it
20:49:38domonokykugel: and what does the dissassembly say ? and any traces of the wheel in this dissassembly ?
20:50:01loswilliosshould it work out of the box or do I need to enable it somehow?
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20:50:39loswilliosoh wait
20:51:02domonokyloswillios: its an option. take a look at the manual.
20:51:44loswilliosyeah just found it, thanks
20:51:45kugeldomonoky: it's only reading dbop data
20:52:04kugelwhich is 2byte long, enough for all buttons
20:53:06kugeldbop_din, so it's input
20:53:35domonokyso we should really try to read the buttons with dbop, with luck we also might find the missing buttons and the wheel (two pins)..
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20:55:29domonokyi checks the wheels itself, and its a ALPS rotary encoder, with two output pins, like on the normal e200. so it really should be somewhere on the gpio s and not i2c or else.
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21:02:48*jhMikeS found out what the bouncy battery indicator was about (loopy mistake)
21:05:53bertrikhm, what can dbop do that gpio can't?
21:06:38bertrikw.r.t. reading buttons
21:07:59domonokybertrik: not interfere with DBOP writing on the same ports ?
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21:15:45kugelbertrik: dbop is gpio, just better (the manual says high speed gpio)
21:16:44kugelI just think dbop is used because there aren't really many gpio pins (as opposed to sansa v1) so it needs to be shared
21:19:12kugelthat looks scary
21:19:31kugelin case it works, i have no plan why ;)
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21:30:22saratogabertrik: DBOP is a highspeed output port designed for driving LCDs
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21:32:00kugelsaratoga: not only output
21:32:03saratogait can do input too, though only on some pins
21:32:42kugelbtw: my code didn't work, I'll analyize more later, got to go now
21:32:48 Quit kugel ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008111319]")
21:33:09saratogaand no interrupts on the input pins
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22:09:17Bagderthe delta size table has a nice xmas-tree like look
22:09:25bluebrotherok ... should Rockbox Utility auto install install the latest release?
22:09:58bluebrotheror should it stay with the current most recent build?
22:10:16Zagorbluebrother: I think release
22:10:29Zagorcurrent build should be a concious choice
22:10:41bluebrotherI'm in favour of that too, but I was wondering if anyone has objections
22:11:26bluebrotherthe code changes are basically ready, and I want to push the new rbutil release tomorrow −− I can't guarantee that I can create binaries the days after tomorrow
22:11:35LloreanCurrent release.
22:11:59*domonoky would like "current" release (with the server tell what is "current") :-)
22:13:08*bluebrother would like to retrieve the release info from the server too (but that has to wait until after 3.1)
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22:14:06Zagordoes it have to wait? we can simply create a symbolic link "release" that points to the current release dir.
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22:14:42Zagoror "latest" rather, since we already have "release" :-)
22:14:50bluebrothertrue, but I'd like to display a short info about whats going to get installed.
22:15:08bluebrotherbut that could be moved to the next rbutil release instead :)
22:15:43Zagorbluebrother: :-) otoh the files have the version number so you will have to do a server check first anyway to see what the files are called.
22:16:02bluebrotherI kinda dislike the current auto install anyway −− I'd like to have some "checking system", then a summary window where one can make ones choices before starting to do anything at all
22:16:22bluebrotherthen we could also add a release / build selection
22:16:48Zagorbluebrother: that sounds good.
22:17:34bluebrotherand I really hate that spinlock that is done during installation. Eats way too much cpu power
22:17:52bluebrothernevertheless, this won't make it until tomorrow
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22:34:32bluebrotherok, does anyone want to propose a better wording? Otherwise I'll go for this: and
22:35:45Lloreanbluebrother: I'd rather "minimal" than "small" personally
22:36:16*gevaerts agrees
22:36:16bluebrotherhmm. It's called small in the menu as well.
22:36:27*bluebrother goes changing
22:36:34gevaertsAlso maybe perform instead of make? "make an installation" sounds a bit weird to me
22:38:25 Quit jhulst (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
22:41:04***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22:42:08Zagorhmm, with 709KB buffer the clip mp3 crash has vanished
22:43:10midgeysaratoga: around?
22:43:55bluebrotherok, committed with the points mentioned changed.
22:44:39bluebrothernow, anyone interested in updating translations? I'm planning to build binaries tomorrow ...
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22:47:03Zagoryep, 512KB is the magic limit
22:47:41Zagorinstant crash-o-rama with 500KB filebuflen
22:47:45fmlbluebrother: why isn't the choice (what to install: the release or the current build) saved to a user prefs file?
22:50:42 Quit lymeca (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:50:45bluebrotherfml: the quick install doesn't have a choice at all
22:50:46LloreanZagor: Is that with or without a lowered watermark?
22:51:13bluebrotherbut I already asked myself why the last selection from the install tab isn't saved.
22:52:16ZagorLlorean: without. and seeing "#define BUFFERING_DEFAULT_WATERMARK (1024*512)" in buffering.c makes it rather clear
22:52:17fmlbluebrother: I may be using an older version of the RBUtil. Every time I update Rockbox I have to set the radio button to "latest build" (or what's the name). The choice could be saved to a file.
22:52:53bluebrotherfml: yes, that started annoying me too.
22:53:22fmlI.e. the RBUtil would benefit from a settings window
22:53:42bluebrotherbut currently the recommended version is selected. And this is the latest release ...
22:53:52bluebrotherhuh? We do have a settings dialog.
22:54:41fmlbluebrother: yes (to both). I mean, the settings dialog could get another option: "What to install by default / as the initial choice"
22:55:14LloreanZagor: I tried changing that, and the high watermark and it kept refilling at 512k
22:55:28bluebrotherhmm. Not sure if I like that.
22:55:53bluebrotherThe problem with the quick start is that it also installs a bootloader. For the install dialog itself, this could simply remember the last choice.
22:56:04ZagorLlorean: yeah. I see playback.c sets the watermark, which overrides that define
22:56:44Zagorand that comes from the codec
22:57:30fmlbluebrother: no matter how, I just don't like the fact that I have to make the same choice every time (who in the world does install the official release? ;-)
22:58:02bluebrotherhehe. Consider me at your side ;-)
23:05:05Zagorlogf output reveals mp3 never changes the watermark, and hence it stays at 512KB
23:05:28Zagorperhaps this is the reason for the different codec results
23:05:40 Join lasser [0] (
23:05:54n1sZagor: that sounds like a bug in itself
23:05:58 Quit saratoga ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)")
23:06:44midgeyi believe wma does the same thing
23:07:03Zagorn1s: yes. playback.c has a nice failsafe "bytes = MIN(bytes, filebuflen / 2)" which would help here
23:07:10Zagortoo bad it's never used...
23:07:10 Quit fml ("CGI:IRC")
23:07:13midgeyactually it look like a lot of codecs set a watermark of 512
23:07:14Zagor(in this case)
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23:08:35Zagormidgey: yes, we discussed that the other day. I feel it's rather wrong that codecs set the watermark themselves.
23:08:55midgeyperhaps i should be around more
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23:09:12midgeywas the suggestion to have the buffering code take care of it?
23:09:24Zagorthat is what I think at least
23:10:07mcuelenaereAurix_Lexico: the encrypted one: (C)TL
23:10:24Zagorthe strange thing is that playback.c already does it, sort of. it chooses the largest of its' own calculation and what the codec asks for
23:10:24n1sZagor: that would mean that the buffering code needs to know the bitrate
23:10:33Zagorn1s: it does
23:11:24Zagorsee set_filebuf_watermark() in apps/playback.c
23:12:06ZagorI wonder why we choose between the calculated value and the codec-supplied value. it feels like a strange solution.
23:13:36LloreanWell, codecs know how many bits per second of audio.
23:14:15ZagorLlorean: so does playback.c. in fact it is playback that does the proper calculation. the codecs just say 512KB always.
23:14:43 Quit n1s (Remote closed the connection)
23:15:27LloreanAh, well that is kinda strange.
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23:17:43mcuelenaereAurix_Lexico: btw I just found some logs of me explaining someone else some basics about the ZVM firmware, but unfortunately (for you) it's in Dutch; so it won't be of much help I'm afraid..
23:17:51Zagorah, the bitrate based calculation is only used to calculate the size needed for the "anti-skip" setting. if anti-skip is 0, it uses the codec-supplied value directly
23:18:39*bluebrother spots fml already left. Too bad.
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23:20:16Zagordoes anyone know what (A/C), (A/C-) and (C/A-) means in the playback.c comments?
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23:33:21Aurix_Lexicoit's alright
23:33:37Zagorhow come clip bootloader doesn't detect usb?
23:33:57ameyerit hasn't been implemented yet?
23:34:18Aurix_Lexicomcuelenare: I'm gonna start looking at the PIC's code
23:34:35Zagorwell it detects it in rockbox
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23:35:03ameyerZagor: not here.
23:35:22ameyerunless it detects it and doesn't do anything
23:35:45Hillshumthe OF will boot at USB insert no?
23:35:58Zagorameyer: it shows the charging icon in status bar
23:36:00midgeyanyone familiar with the wma codec?
23:37:00 Quit n1s (Remote closed the connection)
23:38:14ameyerZagor: I think that's just detecting that power is getting supplied. It does that even if you plug it into a charger.
23:39:06Zagorameyer: you mean a dummy usb charger?
23:39:43Zagorpersonally I wouldn't be terribly annoyed if we mistook a dummy usb charger for an usb connection
23:39:52Zagorrather that than not detecting usb
23:40:52ameyerZagor: yes
23:41:05 Quit mcuelenaere_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:42:32Zagoradding CODEC_SET_FILEBUF_WATERMARK makes mp3 work a lot better.
23:42:51 Join Nibbler [0] (
23:43:21Zagorbut there are still issues
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23:45:13LloreanZagor: On many targets we mistake a USB charger as a USB connection anyway, because we have no way to distinguish.
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23:50:01Zagor1-second watermark works excellent with both 128kbit mp3 and 1440kbit wav
23:51:00Zagorwith flash, of course. hd needs a bit more.
23:52:30LloreanCan we measure the spinup like we do on the archoses, then?
23:53:11 Quit karashata ("G'bye everyone!")
23:54:02ZagorI can't see why not
23:54:25 Quit Strife89 ("Dinner time!")

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