| 00:03:04 | | Join solexx [0] (n=jrschulz@e176124183.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 00:08:47 | bertrik | I've often wondered whether boost could be made automatic instead of explicitly triggered, something like "boost when # of ready threads > X for at least Y ticks" |
| 00:09:17 | | Quit domonoky (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 00:13:57 | gartral | do "/" and "\" characters break ID3 info? |
| 00:13:57 | | Quit parafin (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) |
| 00:13:57 | Zagor | bertrik: I don't think that would work so well with our cooperative task switching |
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| 00:13:57 | bertrik | cooperative tasks could still yield to indicate that they're not quite done yet and that would count as a ready thread I think |
| 00:14:35 | Zagor | yes, but then you replace explicit boosting with "speculative" yielding |
| 00:16:14 | Llorean | It's also possibly lowering the average time spent boosted may not actually improve battery life. |
| 00:16:33 | Llorean | For example, maybe buffering can be done unboosted sometimes, but we probably want to get it done as fast as humanly possible so we can spin down. |
| 00:17:36 | gartral | what about targets that have flash based disks, how is the "spindown" function handled? |
| 00:19:20 | Zagor | gartral: each storage type has its' own driver |
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| 00:26:12 | | Nick JdGordon|zzz is now known as JdGordon (n=jonno@rockbox/developer/JdGordon) |
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| 00:31:24 | saratoga | Zagor: you probably should not test this on MP3 due to multithreading |
| 00:31:49 | saratoga | I think boosting for decode frame will just cause mad_synth_frame to bottleneck on the other core, which is probably why the CPU load went up |
| 00:32:13 | saratoga | things are actually fairly well tuned right now for libmad, so its not representative |
| 00:33:16 | saratoga | WMA might be a better choice since its only a little slower but single threaded, you could try boosting around wma_decode_superframe_frame in wma.c |
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| 01:00 |
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| 01:10:11 | marek_ | hi, i formatted my toshiba gigabeat F10, i have no GBSYSTEm folder now, what can i do? |
| 01:11:08 | | Quit kugel (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) |
| 01:13:12 | toffe82 | marek_: check here http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/GigabeatFXPort |
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| 01:14:20 | toffe82 | marek_: http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=9509.0 |
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| 01:18:24 | marek_ | toffe82 still "no system found" |
| 01:18:53 | toffe82 | maryou are on windows ? |
| 01:19:38 | | Quit faemir (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 01:19:52 | marek_ | toffe82 no |
| 01:20:19 | marek_ | http://pastebin.com/m2a14598e |
| 01:20:44 | marek_ | http://pastebin.com/m1e2e7d8b |
| 01:20:46 | toffe82 | you copy the gbsystem folder to your player ? |
| 01:21:11 | marek_ | yup, arent theese files to small? |
| 01:21:12 | marek_ | http://pastebin.com/m3d6b3b0b |
| 01:21:14 | marek_ | take a look |
| 01:21:19 | marek_ | only a few bytes |
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| 01:21:39 | toffe82 | you download the dummy gbsystem ? |
| 01:21:57 | marek_ | yup |
| 01:22:28 | toffe82 | there are modified from the original |
| 01:22:46 | marek_ | should i paste there also bootloader from rockbox? |
| 01:22:59 | toffe82 | you can't run the originale firmware with them, you have to install rockbox too |
| 01:23:30 | toffe82 | yes for the bootloader |
| 01:23:37 | marek_ | well i dont give a sh!t about original firmware :) i love rockbox |
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| 01:23:52 | toffe82 | if you want the full gbsystem, check the link I gave in the forum |
| 01:25:15 | | Quit flydutch ("/* empty */") |
| 01:27:18 | marek_ | ok im in :) thx toffe82 |
| 01:27:32 | toffe82 | :) |
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| 01:29:30 | gartral | twiki wont save any pages i edit, i hit save, and it resets too the revision before the change, and bumps the revision number |
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| 01:49:28 | | Quit culture (Connection timed out) |
| 01:49:34 | TiZ | Hey, guys. I just used RBUtil to install the rockbox bootloader on Ubuntu Linux. I thought it might be a good idea to stop by and let you guys know that it needs to be done as root. You guys probably know that, but it doesn't seem to be on either the RockboxUtility or GraphicalInstall wiki pages. :) |
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| 01:50:53 | TiZ | It tripped me up at first, 'cos it wouldn't install the bootloader when I ran it as a normal user. When I did gksudo /path/to/rbutilqt, it worked fine. KDE users would use kdesudo instead, and those who don't have sudo would just login as root, I guess. I'm no linux guru, I'm just trying to share what I know. :) |
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| 01:55:26 | TiZ | So, that's really all I wanted to say. Congrats on 3.0 and 3.1 by the way! |
| 01:55:29 | TiZ | Take care, guys. |
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| 02:15:05 | break | Permission for disc access denied! |
| 02:15:12 | break | what can i do! |
| 02:15:41 | break | the internet is farrr too slow to browse any longer. been working on this since about 5:30pm |
| 02:16:14 | cool_walking_ | more information? What gave you this message? What are you trying to do? |
| 02:16:35 | break | the rockbox utility, i'm trying to install rockbox on this refurb sansa E260 |
| 02:16:56 | kadoban | break: do you have permission for disc access? |
| 02:17:05 | break | haha, of course i do |
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| 02:17:29 | break | oh yeah, vista 64 |
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| 02:18:08 | cool_walking_ | Is RbUtil running as administrator? I think someone said something about UAC as well.. maybe you have to disable it? |
| 02:18:21 | break | UAC is disabled, and i am trying to run it as an admin |
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| 02:18:31 | kadoban | "trying to"? |
| 02:18:48 | break | considering it won't let me do anything... |
| 02:19:12 | kadoban | well running it as an admin seems like a binary thing...you either are or aren't. perhaps you're leaving something out? |
| 02:19:20 | cool_walking_ | Right-click RbUtil.exe and select "run as administrator". |
| 02:19:36 | break | i've already done that |
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| 02:19:48 | break | about 30 times maybe? |
| 02:20:16 | break | i've tried running a compatibility mode for xp sp2, as an admin, and it does the same thing |
| 02:20:36 | break | the utility is detecting the sansa, in the right place |
| 02:20:39 | break | it just doesn't work. |
| 02:21:51 | gartral | break: have you tested with a live cd os? mabey its the hardware... |
| 02:23:16 | break | then why did it work with my E280? |
| 02:23:40 | Llorean | Are you sure the e260 is a vanilla V1 and not an R? |
| 02:24:05 | break | yes |
| 02:24:15 | gartral | hardware issue with the dap itself then? Sansa are known too go bad for no readily appearent reason, the PP hardware isnt exactly reliable... |
| 02:24:34 | krazykit | break, have you tried doing a manual install? |
| 02:24:39 | Llorean | break: So it was named MSC and MTP, not Rhapsody and PlaysForSure in the options? |
| 02:25:10 | break | yes |
| 02:25:16 | pixelma | and is it in MSC or MTP mode? (Didn't see the question asked yet) |
| 02:26:22 | break | i think MSC |
| 02:26:27 | break | where it shows up as a drive, not a device |
| 02:26:56 | Llorean | break: Did you actually check in the menus? |
| 02:27:05 | break | yes |
| 02:27:05 | break | its been a few hours |
| 02:27:15 | break | i had to change it |
| 02:28:15 | break | yes, MSC |
| 02:28:17 | Llorean | And which version of the utility are you using? |
| 02:28:39 | break | firmware 01.02.18a, rbutilqt-v1.0.9 |
| 02:29:00 | break | i bet i have to go back to an older firmware or something, don't i. |
| 02:29:07 | break | something i haven't tried |
| 02:29:25 | Llorean | If you're getting permission denied issues it's a host-side thing. |
| 02:29:35 | Llorean | The device doesn't control your permissions. |
| 02:29:40 | gartral | i have had numerous problems with m1.0.9 |
| 02:30:50 | Llorean | gartral: The problem with 1.0.9 relates to detecting Sansas though. His seems to be succeeding at that, at least. |
| 02:31:24 | | Quit akur (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 02:31:25 | Llorean | But the obvious steps would be to try 1.0.7, then sansapatcher, then file a clear bug report documenting the issue. |
| 02:31:38 | break | where can i grab that... |
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| 02:32:24 | Llorean | http://download.rockbox.org/rbutil/ for the utility, the patcher should be in the manual if the utility doesn't work. |
| 02:32:43 | Llorean | You will file a bug report, right? |
| 02:32:57 | break | probably not |
| 02:33:03 | Llorean | gee, thanks |
| 02:33:12 | Llorean | We write free software for you, and you can't spare five minutes of your time to help make it better. |
| 02:33:28 | break | the page times out... |
| 02:33:32 | break | is it up? |
| 02:33:43 | gartral | well, it would be very helpful if you did, then we could follow this and make shure it dosnt happen too others |
| 02:33:46 | Llorean | The page works fine for me. |
| 02:33:49 | break | my internet is being brutally raped |
| 02:33:55 | gartral | http://download.rockbox.org/rbutil/win32/rbutilqt-v1.0.7.zip <−− thats a direct link |
| 02:34:10 | break | thanks |
| 02:34:25 | gartral | (i know im not supposed too deep link, but hes having probs) |
| 02:34:50 | break | this inauguration stuff is pretty annoying |
| 02:35:13 | krazykit | break, this is not a social channel. please take non-rockbox related comments elsewhere |
| 02:36:11 | break | wow, mention one thing |
| 02:36:33 | Llorean | break: The policy isn't "first one's free." We tell you when it happens so you know in the future. |
| 02:36:39 | Llorean | You probably want to read the channel guidelines in the topic. |
| 02:36:45 | break | i mentioned ONE THING |
| 02:36:54 | break | and you get all over my ass about the rules |
| 02:37:00 | Llorean | No, you were just told about them. |
| 02:37:11 | gartral | break, its a logged channel, wadeing through the non-dev talk gets annoying when were trying to trace what each other is saying :) |
| 02:37:11 | Llorean | Now you're making an ass of yourself when you could've just said "Oh, I'll keep that in mind." |
| 02:37:28 | break | now that makes sense, thanks gartral. |
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| 02:38:17 | break | i'll probably be back whenever my internet works, so I can file a bug report. |
| 02:38:25 | gartral | (i know, but as an example) amiconn: how many months did it take for me too learn that one? |
| 02:38:45 | Llorean | gartral: _that_ is off topic too... |
| 02:39:28 | gartral | like i said, as an example |
| 02:39:54 | * | scorche wonders why an example was needed |
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| 03:01:40 | gartral | anyway, USB full speed works fairly well on my e250 with the latest patchs from FS #8663 i get the inserted byte error once in a blue-moon with it, and it doesnt ever break anything that isnt easily replaced, especially with few files at a time |
| 03:06:48 | Unhelpful | amiconn: i'm not sure that's legal - it gives me "syntax error before unsigned" (where the temp is declared). i'll just make it a static inline function |
| 03:07:49 | Llorean | gartral: That patch hasn't been updated since August. |
| 03:08:05 | gartral | but it works... |
| 03:08:23 | Llorean | You still get errors... how is that "works"? |
| 03:09:34 | gartral | and all that hoo-haa about the albums that didnt play, were corrupted MP3s from WiMP10 crashing, im sorry for trying to blame the firmware |
| 03:10:07 | gartral | yea, but its like 12 bytes per gig i transfer.. |
| 03:10:24 | Llorean | And if it were working it'd be 0 bytes per gig. |
| 03:10:40 | gartral | ok, fine, _mostly_ working |
| 03:11:25 | Llorean | All it does is partially cover up a problem. It may turn out to be entirely the wrong solution, so there's no sense applying it until there's a proper fix since USB is disabled anyway, and will be disabled until it doesn't corrupt data. |
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| 03:16:52 | gartral | meh, my dap was just successfully updated with the patched rb, if found if you keep transfer under 30 megs, they work without fail... its just if you exceed the buffer size it corrupts some files, and i just relised i didnt build a patched version, just stock source, and that seems too work the same... |
| 03:20:55 | gartral | heh, and it was plugged through a hub,which isnt even supposed too work, i have 0 explanation there |
| 03:21:15 | Llorean | Hubs should work in many cases. |
| 03:21:18 | Llorean | It's just some hubs that are problematic. |
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| 03:36:38 | Unhelpful | amiconn: also, after i wrote div255 as an inline function, gcc reduces it to two ADDs, and a shift in the MOV, without repeating any of the math that went into the input value |
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| 05:08:01 | gartral | twiki says i no longer have edit rights too my own page >.> |
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| 08:53:56 | kugel | JdGordon: ping |
| 08:55:37 | Zagor | kugel: since the general opinion about the fade settings seem to be "leave them alone", we'll do just the cleanup. I'll take a closer look at your patch later today. |
| 08:57:34 | kugel | Zagor: okay |
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| 08:58:26 | kugel | amiconn said he has plans to make sw fading configurable, then it would be consistent too |
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| 08:58:42 | Zagor | ok |
| 09:00 |
| 09:02:25 | JdGordon | kugel: pong... but depends what you wanna talk about :) |
| 09:02:36 | JdGordon | going afk for an hour or so.. |
| 09:04:11 | JdGordon | too slow... bbl |
| 09:04:25 | kugel | JdGordon: oh, I'm just wondering if you have an idea what to do with the dead parts of the screen when leaving the wps to a custom list |
| 09:04:35 | kugel | it's somewhat nasty what the current patch does |
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| 09:12:34 | linuxstb | kugel: Where is the latest version of that patch? The version on FS #8799 seems very out of date. |
| 09:15:29 | kugel | linuxstb: yea, it is |
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| 09:15:47 | kugel | linuxstb: but that's the version I'm referring to |
| 09:17:46 | kugel | basically, the whole display needs to be cleared upon exiting screens which certainly don't use the list dimensions |
| 09:17:58 | kugel | but that causes statusbar flickering |
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| 09:36:53 | webguest93 | jhMikeS: There? |
| 09:37:00 | | Nick webguest93 is now known as BigBambi (n=86ceaf40@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-99ea9a29a749917b) |
| 09:37:53 | BigBambi | Has anyone got any experience in USB charging in Windows with the beast? |
| 09:39:19 | BigBambi | It's the first time I've tried it on Windows (at work), and when I plug holding menu to charge only, I get the Rockbox media player popup in Windows which I cancel, after which the beast claims not to be charging |
| 09:43:02 | linuxstb | BigBambi: I assume you have a current SVN build? i.e. after jhMikeS's recent commits? |
| 09:43:24 | BigBambi | linuxstb: yes, updated just prior to coming in |
| 09:43:45 | BigBambi | I've never tried it on windows before, so I don't know if used to or not |
| 09:44:04 | BigBambi | (just prior to coming in here that is :)) |
| 09:45:42 | BigBambi | The odd thing is that the debug menu claims charger: absent, yet rockbox is using my backlight on charge settings |
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| 10:22:50 | gartral | hello? |
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| 10:26:11 | gartral | in the buffer threads view, is the PCM line supposed to jump past alloc and real? |
| 10:28:55 | JdGordon | kugel: well... if we get to the point where we can have a WPS sort of thing going in the rest f the screen, it will update automatically in the new screen |
| 10:29:16 | JdGordon | for now.. I think we should NOT clear the whole screen in preperation for that |
| 10:29:33 | JdGordon | gartral: the pcm line is a seperate buffer |
| 10:29:45 | JdGordon | its not really related to the 2nd two lines |
| 10:33:00 | gartral | ok, thanks JdGordon, my next question is, how hard would you think it would be too get either the radio to display info in the "now playing" WPS, or add a WPS too the radio? |
| 10:34:59 | JdGordon | depends... do you know C and actually want to stick around to implement this? |
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| 10:35:40 | gartral | well, ive been lightly tweaking the USB stack, with some succsess |
| 10:36:14 | * | gevaerts understands from the backlog that gartral hasn't tweaked the USB stack in any way |
| 10:36:28 | gartral | i have it too the point it'll take say a 30 meg block of stuff and properly transferit... |
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| 10:36:51 | gevaerts | No |
| 10:37:02 | gartral | well, ive tryed with an old patch, and it gave me an idea or two, and now i kind of have it working |
| 10:37:16 | JdGordon | it shouldnt be all that hard to hack the wps display to show radio info.. i did it 1 or 2 years ago... doing it nicely is a different story |
| 10:37:20 | gevaerts | the USB stack does not corrupt data |
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| 10:40:02 | gartral | may i upload an updated fmr that has the right name for a stationj, as it switched last month |
| 10:41:31 | gevaerts | BigBambi_: charge only doesn't work well on the beast, because windows doesn't enumerate the device correctly (because of the missing driver), and the code plays nice and only uses 500mA when told that it's allowed to (which doesn't happen if enumeration isn't completed) |
| 10:41:52 | gevaerts | So basically you're stuck because everything works as designed and according to spec |
| 10:42:07 | BigBambi_ | so it is a Windows issue? |
| 10:42:37 | gevaerts | issue yes (I think it doesn't happen on linux, but I'm not sure). Bug, no. |
| 10:42:50 | pixelma | reading the logs too - on my PC I have no problems transferring a bigger amount of data at once (filled an 8GB microSD in chunks of 1 or two albums at once, so 60MB and more usually) with Rocbox USB on my c200. I do have a problem with the front USB ports, they work but resetting quite often so it gets too slow to be usable. |
| 10:42:58 | BigBambi_ | It doesn't happen on linux (i.e. it charges properly) |
| 10:43:40 | BigBambi_ | gevaerts: Can I (me being not too skilled) easily edit something to do it incorrectly and let me charge it? |
| 10:43:52 | BigBambi_ | As I don't want to take the carger to and from work everyday |
| 10:44:28 | BigBambi_ | *charger |
| 10:45:15 | Zagor | gevaerts: I assume it only plays nice if it gets a response but is not enumarated? |
| 10:45:38 | gevaerts | BigBambi_: I think changing usb_allowed_current() in usb_core.c to always return 500 will work |
| 10:46:13 | BigBambi_ | gevaerts: Thanks, I'll try that tonight (can't build here) |
| 10:47:21 | kugel | JdGordon: I think I found a nice solution. btw: the statusbar is poorly viewport'fied :( |
| 10:47:43 | JdGordon | i know :/ |
| 10:47:44 | BigBambi_ | gevaerts: Is there anything we can do in the long run - I know it is a windows problem, but I'm sure users won't see it that way |
| 10:47:48 | JdGordon | whats your solution? |
| 10:48:10 | gevaerts | Zagor: the new code distinguishes pure chargers from hosts by looking at bus resets. |
| 10:48:15 | | Quit nibbler (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) |
| 10:48:26 | Zagor | gevaerts: aha |
| 10:48:55 | gevaerts | BigBambi_: yes. Implementing HID. I disagree about it being a windows problem though. Windows behaves entirely according to spec here |
| 10:49:24 | BigBambi_ | ah, OK |
| 10:49:56 | kugel | JdGordon: issuing a redraw if viewportmanager_set_custom_vp is called with true, but only if it wasn't active before |
| 10:50:06 | BigBambi_ | I thought you meant it should say OK to 500 mA even though not enumerated (spot the person who knows nothing about USB) |
| 10:50:11 | B4gder | darn! we missed our 8th year version history anniversary just few days ago |
| 10:50:13 | kugel | this way, the redraw only happens if a fullscreen screen is left to a non-fullscreen one |
| 10:50:19 | B4gder | 7th even |
| 10:50:27 | B4gder | r1 | (no author) | 2002-01-17 |
| 10:51:25 | JdGordon | isnt r1 just making the repo? |
| 10:52:00 | B4gder | hm, true r4 with some actual contents came 2002-03-25 |
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| 10:52:22 | JdGordon | so we have 2 months to prepare the celebrations! |
| 10:52:26 | B4gder | yay! |
| 10:52:33 | | Quit _lifeless (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) |
| 10:52:45 | JdGordon | kugel: hmm... yeah that sounds like it should get fixed in svn |
| 10:53:10 | kugel | hm, I don't understand |
| 10:53:27 | | Part gartral |
| 10:53:59 | JdGordon | i mean.. it should be changed in svn to do that... instead of waiting for your patch to be fixed |
| 10:56:11 | kugel | ah ok |
| 10:56:57 | * | JdGordon tries to rememeber the other ui tweaks which need to be done |
| 10:58:11 | JdGordon | can anyone think of any screens which the statusbar appears obviously before the rest of it? |
| 11:00 |
| 11:04:08 | JdGordon | kugel: hmm.. no that fix isnt so good... the WPS does a full screen clear so if the statusbar is enabled there is a small time when the bar isnt shown |
| 11:04:25 | JdGordon | not many WPS' show the bar though so it might not be a big deal |
| 11:06:08 | | Quit tajlero (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 11:09:32 | PaulJam | JdGordon: i noticed in some situations when the disk needs to spin up, that the statusbar appears too early. when leaving the WPS to the filebrowser with dircaache disabled and when leaving the virtual keyboard (when saving a file). |
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| 11:10:50 | JdGordon | its not that it shows up too early... just that the rest of the ui cant keep up |
| 11:13:22 | JdGordon | ok, i've moved the first list redraw in the tree up a bit so it happens before the disk access so that should be fixed |
| 11:13:59 | kugel | JdGordon: no it doesnt |
| 11:14:43 | kugel | and redrawing the statusbar via viewportmanager_draw_statusbar is part of the redraw (without, yes, the statusbar disappears shortly) |
| 11:15:04 | JdGordon | no it doesnt? |
| 11:15:28 | kugel | well, if it would the dead parts wouldn't be in around the list |
| 11:16:12 | JdGordon | ? |
| 11:16:32 | JdGordon | PaulJam: hm.. nope.. better not do that fix, it might crash :p |
| 11:16:55 | kugel | JdGordon: it doesn't in svn |
| 11:17:45 | kugel | what I do now is a full redraw (including immediate statusbar redraw) if you go from fullscreen to custom |
| 11:17:46 | JdGordon | of course it doesnt... it always redraws in svn |
| 11:17:54 | JdGordon | im saying with that change |
| 11:17:56 | | Quit linuxstb (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 11:18:11 | kugel | "WPS does a full screen clear" is not true for svn |
| 11:18:22 | kugel | brb |
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| 11:31:33 | kugel | JdGordon: here's what I have now: http://pastie.org/366550 |
| 11:31:36 | kugel | works good already |
| 11:34:05 | JdGordon | kugel: gwps-common.c:370 |
| 11:34:51 | JdGordon | that set_custom(true) call is redundant |
| 11:35:02 | kugel | JdGordon: that's on entering |
| 11:35:06 | kugel | not on leaving |
| 11:35:19 | kugel | leaving the wps is problematic |
| 11:35:25 | JdGordon | it must always be reenabled on exiting... it is always assumed to be on on entering |
| 11:35:43 | kugel | remove the call, and see what happens |
| 11:35:51 | JdGordon | i know what happens... |
| 11:36:00 | JdGordon | look how its handled in the current wps code |
| 11:36:04 | JdGordon | thats how it shold be done |
| 11:36:24 | JdGordon | remember.. we want to make it a PITA for things to NOT use the custom vp |
| 11:37:41 | JdGordon | viewportmanager_set_statusbar should be replaced with _set_custom_vp (but with a better name) |
| 11:37:42 | kugel | JdGordon: the wps will not set custom_vp, no matter of "making it a PITA" |
| 11:37:49 | kugel | unset even |
| 11:38:02 | kugel | in needs to be set again on exiting anyway |
| 11:38:43 | JdGordon | look at the case ACTION_WPS_CONTEXT: in gwps.c (line 260) |
| 11:38:55 | JdGordon | specifically the 2 calls to viewportmanager_set_statusbar |
| 11:39:22 | kugel | I see them |
| 11:39:42 | kugel | they should be removed, since onplay is doing do_menu, and do_menu should handle statusbars |
| 11:39:57 | JdGordon | NO... |
| 11:40:15 | JdGordon | its the responsability to the screen which disables them to reenable them |
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| 11:41:14 | kugel | JdGordon: do_menu needs to set the custom_vp, not only because of the wps |
| 11:41:24 | kugel | also because of nasty things with theme changes and other screens |
| 11:41:26 | JdGordon | it must not set it... |
| 11:41:40 | kugel | and again, nothing will be redrawed if custom vp was already set |
| 11:43:42 | * | JdGordon figuring out how to best articulate his thoughts... |
| 11:45:05 | kugel | you want screens which don't use the custom vp to mess with it, instead of having each screen specifying what he's going to use, right? |
| 11:45:17 | JdGordon | yes |
| 11:45:23 | JdGordon | not mess with it.. just disable it |
| 11:45:32 | kugel | I've did that, and it didn't work well |
| 11:45:37 | kugel | especially on theme changes |
| 11:45:51 | JdGordon | that is exactly how the current status bar handling works |
| 11:46:09 | kugel | the wps can't do the redraw. the redraw can happen after the list data is in the framebuffer, not before |
| 11:46:16 | JdGordon | see the problem is, there are a few things which need more work before this works properly |
| 11:46:26 | JdGordon | one of which is sending an event on theme change |
| 11:46:36 | JdGordon | a simple fix but noone has done the work |
| 11:47:39 | kugel | what you planning just just makes it more complex imo |
| 11:49:01 | kugel | and statusbar handling is different, its content doesn't change between screens |
| 11:49:05 | JdGordon | to implement maybe.. but once its done it makes things very simple |
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| 11:50:30 | kugel | no, I don't think so |
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| 11:50:42 | JdGordon | your not understaning what i want to do |
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| 11:52:04 | JdGordon | ok, bassically what you have to do is add a event and call that every time the statusbar/customvp is toggled which redraws the background image |
| 11:52:34 | JdGordon | when all this is finished that will be removed and the WPS will be redrawn over the dead space automatically |
| 11:55:27 | kugel | what I did now is the easiest and most uncomplex way |
| 11:55:34 | kugel | and it's not unproper |
| 11:55:41 | JdGordon | i disagree |
| 11:56:09 | kugel | the list code setting custom vp avoids a dozen of nasty problems at once |
| 11:56:27 | kugel | and doesn't introdce any |
| 11:56:47 | JdGordon | it creates 15 more |
| 11:57:42 | kugel | which? with what I have, only screens that do not want to use the custom vp need to unset it, every other screen doesn't |
| 11:58:29 | JdGordon | that is not what you have |
| 11:58:32 | JdGordon | that is what I want |
| 11:58:50 | kugel | this is what I have. |
| 11:58:58 | JdGordon | the very first hunk in the patch you pastebined is doing the exact oposite |
| 11:59:10 | kugel | if you go from a list to any screen, it'll use the custom vp |
| 12:00 |
| 12:00:15 | kugel | it's not finished, that one will get removed |
| 12:02:23 | JdGordon | anyway the list is absolutly the wrong place to be fiddling, it is redundant there... 1) if a parent is passed to the list it wont get changed and 2) it gets the custom/full viewport if no parent is passed which means if something disabled it before and didnt reenable it that needs fixing.. no the list |
| 12:08:48 | kugel | JdGordon: we basically want the same, just our (current) ideas of the exact implementation differs |
| 12:09:05 | kugel | what I showed you is by no means finished so don't take that too serious |
| 12:11:43 | JdGordon | the viewportmanager_* functions are all that is needed for this custom list stuff... it just needs renaming and to add that background redraw.. |
| 12:11:56 | JdGordon | and the code to load the string -> vp |
| 12:12:02 | kugel | the problems is that the wps can't do the comlete redraw |
| 12:12:22 | JdGordon | what complete redraw? |
| 12:12:40 | kugel | clear display and update display |
| 12:12:45 | | Quit gevaerts (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) |
| 12:13:22 | JdGordon | course it can... right now the only thing outside of the custom vp is a background image which gets redone when the custom list is reneabled |
| 12:14:46 | kugel | well, redrawing the backdrop only apparently doesn't work |
| 12:14:47 | JdGordon | kugel: I cant tempt you away from this with multifont can i? :p |
| 12:14:56 | JdGordon | then you're doing it wrong |
| 12:15:05 | kugel | that also happens without all that stuff, and still shows the dead parts |
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| 12:15:38 | JdGordon | "that also happens without all that stuff" .. too many "that"s |
| 12:16:09 | kugel | the first that is redrawing the backdrop, the latter is full redraw |
| 12:16:43 | kugel | i.e. if you leave the wps, the backdrop is redrawn, but there's dead parts on the screens anyway |
| 12:17:00 | JdGordon | of course... what are you expecting there? |
| 12:17:20 | kugel | you seem to be expecting that redrawing the backdrop will get the dead parts away |
| 12:17:42 | kugel | " it just needs renaming and to add that background redraw.." |
| 12:17:54 | JdGordon | no, i was using the redraw to get rid of the old screen bits... i have no idea what you're expecting it to display in the dead parts |
| 12:18:10 | kugel | the background of course |
| 12:18:23 | * | kugel is confused now |
| 12:18:31 | JdGordon | that makes 3 of us |
| 12:18:38 | kugel | lol :) |
| 12:21:11 | kugel | JdGordon: and no, you can't tempt me to do multifont for the next weeks. I have exams soon, and I cannot contentrate on a new project until they're done |
| 12:21:52 | kugel | and I'd really like to get something done, not always starting something new |
| 12:25:31 | JdGordon | ok... so going back to the confusion... "dead space" I'm talking about is the part of the display which the previous screen used but the new one doesnt. I was under the impression that only the background image would be shown here (or its not dead space)... |
| 12:25:53 | kugel | yea, that's how it should be |
| 12:26:22 | kugel | but how do you exactly mean "redrawing the background to get that dead parts away"? |
| 12:26:33 | JdGordon | then I say again... rename the viewportmanager functions, redraw the background when its reneabled and its all done |
| 12:29:06 | JdGordon | and if that is the only change then there is almost no extra work needed because most things were fixed when that first came in |
| 12:30:25 | kugel | what do you mean with redrawing the background? Do you mean just setting the backdrop, or clear&update the display or what? |
| 12:30:46 | JdGordon | yes |
| 12:30:55 | kugel | yes to? |
| 12:31:13 | JdGordon | whatever it takes to have the backdrop image redrawn |
| 12:31:33 | kugel | but that's what I already do |
| 12:31:50 | JdGordon | then you're doing it wrong! :) |
| 12:32:40 | kugel | JdGordon: see line 183+ in the paste |
| 12:32:49 | kugel | that's what it takes to remove the dead parts |
| 12:33:13 | kugel | and that's done on toggeling the custom_vp (only if needed ofc) |
| 12:33:48 | | Join Soap__ [0] (n=Soap@96-35-143-21.static.stls.mo.charter.com) |
| 12:34:02 | JdGordon | well.. you're not making sure its using the NULL viewport which could be problematic |
| 12:34:22 | JdGordon | and if thats coming out of the wps it needs to unload the wps backdrop and load the main one |
| 12:34:53 | kugel | JdGordon: clear_display() update() is using the null viewport |
| 12:35:31 | JdGordon | im not so sure about that |
| 12:36:34 | JdGordon | clear does... |
| 12:37:30 | | Join bootflash [0] (n=50bb681b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-01509beab8c3bab0) |
| 12:37:42 | JdGordon | there is no lcd_update in the 16bit lcd driver so im assuming that is a #define to lcd_update_viewport? |
| 12:38:24 | kugel | JdGordon: there's display->update() and ->update_viewport() |
| 12:38:35 | kugel | update() is a wrapper to the update_viewport with the null viewport |
| 12:40:09 | | Join Anges [0] (n=agnes@lns-bzn-49f-62-147-173-3.adsl.proxad.net) |
| 12:40:30 | bootflash | flashed H140 and load from ROM set, if I RoLo without changing the boot sequence, which version of the firmware will load upon a off and on cycle, flashed or RoLo ? |
| 12:40:46 | kugel | JdGordon: no wait, I confused it |
| 12:41:02 | kugel | lcd_update is implemented in the target's lcd driver |
| 12:41:32 | Zagor | bootflash: flashed |
| 12:41:33 | kugel | as well as lcd_update_rect (and lcd_update_viewport == lcd_update_rect, and lcd_update is lcd_update |
| 12:43:36 | bootflash | soory about irc lag, thanks Zagor |
| 12:48:59 | | Quit bootflash ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)") |
| 12:49:42 | | Quit Soap_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 12:53:59 | | Nick Soap__ is now known as soap_ (n=Soap@96-35-143-21.static.stls.mo.charter.com) |
| 12:57:57 | | Quit kugel ("ChatZilla 0.9.84-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.5/2008121622]") |
| 13:00 |
| 13:01:34 | | Quit japc (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 13:26:50 | | Quit soap_ ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 2.0.0.20/2008121709]") |
| 13:37:16 | | Quit daurnimator ("Cyas later...") |
| 13:51:30 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 13:52:44 | | Join kugel [0] (n=kugel@e178068016.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 13:53:46 | JdGordon | kugel: see the patch i uploaded? |
| 13:54:06 | kugel | JdGordon: yea |
| 13:54:26 | kugel | essentially the same as I did, just with the event, instead of toggled custom_vp |
| 13:55:02 | JdGordon | right.. that was to show that most of the hard work needed has been done already |
| 13:55:19 | JdGordon | the wps needs to be reworked so it doesnt try enableing the statusbar so often |
| 13:55:51 | kugel | I'm not exactly sure though if you got what I meant with wps doing the redraw/fullscreen update |
| 13:56:12 | kugel | display->update sends the framebuffer to the lcd |
| 13:56:33 | kugel | if you do that in the wps (before list drawing), then the wps framebuffer data is sent to the lcd |
| 13:57:49 | kugel | the wps can only do clear_display, but (I didn't test yet, but I fear it) I think the clear would be more noticeable |
| 13:58:53 | kugel | so, I did the list code do the redraw, so that it's instant and not noticeable |
| 14:00 |
| 14:00:11 | JdGordon | http://pastebin.com/df51cd45 works great |
| 14:00:45 | JdGordon | I tihnk ill commit the changes to apps/gui/gwps-common.c to make things easier later |
| 14:03:13 | kugel | I'll check it out |
| 14:03:46 | * | kugel needs to answer emails first now :) |
| 14:08:22 | | Join dfkt [0] (i=dfkt@unaffiliated/dfkt) |
| 14:21:36 | * | B4gder welcomes committer #68 |
| 14:22:51 | * | B4gder points to kugel in case that wasn't clear ;-) |
| 14:23:56 | kugel | thanks :) |
| 14:24:05 | jhMikeS | Zagor: Notice the PCM buffer doesn't seem to filly fully now on my e200 but sort of hangs around just above the boost point (75%). |
| 14:24:39 | Zagor | jhMikeS: with the boost patch? |
| 14:25:10 | jhMikeS | Just pain SVN. Wait, you didn't commit that? Somehow I got the impression... |
| 14:25:11 | | Join massiveH [0] (n=massiveH@pool-72-88-218-123.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net) |
| 14:25:21 | Zagor | jhMikeS: hehe, no. |
| 14:25:23 | | Quit massiveH (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 14:25:59 | pixelma | SVN pain hurts ;) |
| 14:26:15 | B4gder | it makes you alert! |
| 14:27:09 | jhMikeS | Weird. 3g does it too. It's full until buffering stops then seems to only boost for a very short period. |
| 14:28:18 | B4gder | kugel: a good first commit ought to be yourself added in docs/COMMITTERS! |
| 14:28:33 | Zagor | jhMikeS: we boost during the whole buffer fill |
| 14:28:39 | kugel | I'm preparing. I hope I'm not going to fail horribly :/ |
| 14:28:49 | | Join LambdaCalculus37 [0] (i=44a04303@rockbox/staff/LambdaCalculus37) |
| 14:29:14 | B4gder | kugel: we promise to publicly ridicule you at first chance! ;-) |
| 14:29:24 | jhMikeS | Zagor: Yes, during the initial buffering. Something kills the codec thread boost too soon now it seems. |
| 14:29:26 | kugel | hehe |
| 14:29:28 | LambdaCalculus37 | kugel: Just saw the news... congrats! :) |
| 14:29:30 | B4gder | I'm sure you'll manage |
| 14:29:48 | * | kugel tripple checks if he wrote his name correctly |
| 14:30:40 | Zagor | jhMikeS: which codec are you using? I didn't see that on c200 during my testing yesterday. |
| 14:30:47 | kugel | what's the codepage of that file? |
| 14:30:53 | kugel | not utf-8? |
| 14:31:00 | jhMikeS | heh, I find I'm not even in the COMMITTERS doc :\ |
| 14:31:07 | jhMikeS | Zagor: MPA |
| 14:31:18 | B4gder | jhMikeS: you are! |
| 14:31:37 | | Join kachna|lappy [0] (n=kachna@r4ax178.net.upc.cz) |
| 14:31:37 | B4gder | kugel: it might be iso8859-1 yes |
| 14:31:45 | jhMikeS | wait, stupid search with typo |
| 14:31:50 | LambdaCalculus37 | jhMikeS: I see your name in COMMITTERS. |
| 14:31:51 | | Quit MrDuck (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 14:32:15 | B4gder | kugel: primarily because we use that output in the web site outputs and that still assumes iso and not utf8 |
| 14:32:31 | kugel | ah ok, seems I nearly failed |
| 14:32:35 | * | jhMikeS sees himself now that he just scanned it manually |
| 14:32:47 | jhMikeS | or optically, whichever you prefer |
| 14:35:06 | kugel | hm, password incorrect? |
| 14:35:25 | B4gder | lemme check |
| 14:35:34 | jhMikeS | Zagor: I'm seeing the same with WMA on e200 as well |
| 14:35:56 | kugel | ah now :) |
| 14:36:22 | jhMikeS | WAV seems fine though |
| 14:36:40 | jhMikeS | well, it doesn't need boost so why wouldn't it be? |
| 14:36:41 | * | LambdaCalculus37 hands kugel a beer for his first commit |
| 14:36:48 | Zagor | jhMikeS: could your r19808 commit have jinxed something? |
| 14:37:25 | kugel | LambdaCalculus37: thanks! tastes delicious |
| 14:37:43 | LambdaCalculus37 | kugel: It's a new brew... "Sweet taste of success." ;) |
| 14:37:47 | jhMikeS | Zagor: Who knows but that's so far removed from any of that. |
| 14:37:51 | * | LambdaCalculus37 goes back to more manual work |
| 14:38:19 | jhMikeS | np, to just go back a couple revisions and check |
| 14:39:32 | Zagor | playback is a rather fragile house of cards :) |
| 14:40:04 | LambdaCalculus37 | Zagor: Doesn't playback need to be reworked quite a bit? |
| 14:40:24 | Zagor | LambdaCalculus37: yes it does. it's on my list of things I want to do |
| 14:40:30 | jhMikeS | Perhaps, but that commit is buried in the kernal and no actual behavior should change to anything outside. |
| 14:41:29 | Zagor | jhMikeS: I know. it's just a stab in the dark. |
| 14:41:45 | LambdaCalculus37 | Zagor: One of the reasons why I ask is because if I can ever get an Archos AV100 or JBMM before hell freezes over, I want to get a port started on that, and that may be a hybrid HWCODEC/SWCODEC target. |
| 14:41:49 | jhMikeS | I'll get you your answer though, sir :) |
| 14:42:08 | Zagor | LambdaCalculus37: ugh... |
| 14:42:25 | Zagor | I won't tell you where my AV300 is then... |
| 14:43:07 | LambdaCalculus37 | An AV300, you say? ;) |
| 14:43:24 | PaulJam | jhMikeS, Zagor: i think this behavior has been there since a few weeks ago (i didn't mention it because i thought the change was intended) |
| 14:43:29 | | Part B4gder |
| 14:44:23 | jhMikeS | PaulJam: Hrm. I doubt it was intended. It should top off properly upon boosting. |
| 14:44:42 | Zagor | PaulJam: wow. I haven't seen it at all, and I've spent quite a bit of the last few weeks staring at that screen |
| 14:44:55 | * | JdGordon makes one last ditch attempt at getting hwcodec testing on 9795 and goes to bed |
| 14:44:57 | | Nick JdGordon is now known as JdGordon|zzz (n=jonno@rockbox/developer/JdGordon) |
| 14:45:07 | | Join itcheg [0] (i=41d59de2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-b9eccf793b60c2bf) |
| 14:45:08 | jhMikeS | Otherwise it boost/unboosts alot. The boost ration for MPA went from about 1.2% to around 3.5% as a consequence. |
| 14:45:23 | | Join Casainho [0] (n=chatzill@bl8-154-228.dsl.telepac.pt) |
| 14:45:38 | jhMikeS | ...on e200, tone controls, watching buffering screen. |
| 14:46:17 | Zagor | ahh, I never use tone controls. maybe that's the difference. |
| 14:46:31 | Casainho | hello :-) −− I would like to know if working on rockbox Player couldn't be a project for Google Summer of Code 2009 ? |
| 14:47:09 | Zagor | Casainho: it could, if you can define a distinct project in it. i.e. a defined start and end. |
| 14:48:10 | Casainho | Zagor: hmmm, I don't have energies for that, and unfortunaly I am bad at english language :-( |
| 14:48:21 | Casainho | Zagor: thanks ;-) |
| 14:54:19 | | Quit culture (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 14:56:41 | | Quit Casainho ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122]") |
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| 15:00 |
| 15:00:05 | kugel | was there any decision about the natural sorting thing? |
| 15:00:16 | kugel | the patch basically waits for it |
| 15:00:39 | LambdaCalculus37 | kugel: Not sure. Have the logs revealed anything? |
| 15:01:20 | kugel | I don't think so. I remember to discussions, 1 was very controversial about what to be default, the other not so much |
| 15:01:53 | Zagor | how good is the numeric sort? can it screw up sorting in unexpected ways? |
| 15:02:09 | kugel | I think it's good |
| 15:02:18 | | Quit itcheg ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client") |
| 15:02:23 | kugel | I've made a little test_sort folder, looked good |
| 15:02:53 | Zagor | even when the artist or album contains numbers? |
| 15:03:01 | | Join MrDuck [0] (n=kachna@r4ax178.net.upc.cz) |
| 15:03:03 | kugel | also it doesn't seem to noticeably slow down browsing |
| 15:03:07 | | Join itcheg [0] (i=41d59de2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c184e9b19002863f) |
| 15:03:39 | kugel | do you have some example? I have no artists with numbers in my library |
| 15:04:22 | Zagor | "Front 242 - 05:22:09:12 Off - Crushed.mp3" |
| 15:04:49 | Zagor | or rather "Front 242 - 05:22:09:12 Off - 9 Crushed.mp3" |
| 15:07:51 | | Quit kachna|lappy (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) |
| 15:09:58 | Zagor | or how about this one: "Paul van Dyk - 45 RPM - 11 - Pump this 45.mp3" |
| 15:10:59 | PaulJam | Zagor, jhMikeS:i tried some older builds and it seems as if this has started with the watermark rework (r19743/4). |
| 15:11:42 | kugel | Zagor: what problems are you expecting? |
| 15:11:58 | Zagor | PaulJam: good find. do you use the equalizer? |
| 15:12:25 | kugel | the patch doesn't change alphabetical sorting. Only for leading numbers, and for files which have the same non-number characters before numbers |
| 15:13:19 | | Join japc [0] (n=japc@194.65.5.235) |
| 15:13:27 | Zagor | kugel: so those albums I listed won't be sorted numerically? (if the filenames are formatted that way) |
| 15:14:28 | kugel | those would |
| 15:14:50 | kugel | I think, I haven tested if it sorts properly if such a large number of leading non-numbers is there |
| 15:15:28 | kugel | "and for files which have the same non-number characters before numbers" i.e. a2 comes before a10 |
| 15:15:30 | Zagor | the crux is that these albums/files use both numbers and non-numbers in the leading string |
| 15:16:31 | Zagor | if the patch identifies identical non-number "prefixes", surely it could do it with numeric prefixes too? |
| 15:16:55 | kugel | not sure what you mean with numerical prefixes |
| 15:17:09 | kugel | 2a is sorted before 10a, so the sort would kick in |
| 15:17:23 | Zagor | I mean the leading part of each filename that is identical for every track |
| 15:18:43 | kugel | ah, yea, it would sort after the first non-identical char |
| 15:19:09 | Zagor | exactly. so "room202 - 10" is sorted after "room202 - 2" |
| 15:19:31 | kugel | so "Front 242 - 05:22:09:12 Off - 2 xxx.mp3" comes before "Front 242 - 05:22:09:12 Off - 11 xxx.mp3" |
| 15:19:48 | kugel | but again, I haven't tested it so indepthly, it's just supposed to do that |
| 15:20:03 | kugel | I'll give it a test right now |
| 15:20:38 | | Quit film42 (Client Quit) |
| 15:20:53 | PaulJam | Zagor: usually yes (only preamp), but for testing i used the default settings (except backlight). |
| 15:21:19 | Zagor | PaulJam: ok. which target(s) do you see this on? |
| 15:21:29 | PaulJam | on H300 |
| 15:23:07 | Zagor | ah, I see it. my patch added cancel_boost when pcm goes above the watermark. |
| 15:24:24 | Zagor | my commit, rather |
| 15:25:13 | | Join tyfoo [0] (n=tyfoo@77-20-31-238-dynip.superkabel.de) |
| 15:26:48 | PaulJam | wow, this was scary... my player suddenly decided to only output white noise instead of music. and only a reboot fixed it. |
| 15:27:07 | * | LambdaCalculus37 should fix the wording of the blind descriptions for the Archos JBR v1/FM/v2 in the manual |
| 15:28:36 | LambdaCalculus37 | I wonder if I should also start working on the Clip manual as well. |
| 15:28:50 | * | LambdaCalculus37 adds that to his TODO list |
| 15:29:45 | | Join petur [50] (n=petur@rockbox/developer/petur) |
| 15:37:10 | Zagor | I think "numeric" is a much better name than "natural". numeric indicates it does something special with numbers, which is precisely what it does. |
| 15:37:45 | Zagor | smart, natural, human etc just indicates it does something abnormal and gives no clue as to what |
| 15:39:41 | kugel | hm |
| 15:40:13 | BigBambi | yes, things such as "natural" depends on what is natural to you |
| 15:40:24 | BigBambi | same with e.g. "smart" |
| 15:40:36 | kugel | the thing is, I don't see how we ever agree on a name |
| 15:41:01 | dionoea | "obama sort"? |
| 15:41:02 | kugel | so sticking to the de-facto seems resonable to me. It's known as natural. |
| 15:41:11 | * | dionoea goes back to lurking |
| 15:41:12 | Zagor | kugel: is it? where? |
| 15:41:12 | rasher | I really don't think numeric is terribly descriptive - it seems to suggests that numbers will be assigned or something.. |
| 15:41:28 | | Join culture [0] (n=none@cpc2-bele3-0-0-cust89.belf.cable.ntl.com) |
| 15:41:54 | rasher | Zagor: most high-level programming languages |
| 15:41:58 | kugel | http://www.google.de/search?q=natural+sorting ;) |
| 15:42:12 | Zagor | rasher: it's not completely descriptive, but it indicates what differentiates that algorithm from standard sort. |
| 15:42:20 | kugel | the function is even called strnatcmp |
| 15:43:09 | rasher | Zagor: People have no idea what the so-called "standard sort" does though |
| 15:43:30 | | Quit tyfoo (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 15:43:42 | Zagor | rasher: that doesn't change the fact that "numeric" contains information that "natural" does not |
| 15:43:50 | rasher | It's a black box that doesn't do what you expect |
| 15:44:14 | rasher | Misinformation in my opinion |
| 15:44:23 | kugel | Zagor: there's no proper description imo |
| 15:44:36 | kugel | every name proposed seems flawed to me |
| 15:44:49 | Zagor | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collation |
| 15:45:10 | Zagor | I see no indication of "natural" being the de-facto name |
| 15:45:54 | rasher | In computer circles it is. I've no idea how you missed tip |
| 15:46:08 | rasher | This* |
| 15:46:26 | kugel | and in no-computer circles it's just sorting |
| 15:46:39 | Zagor | is that why it's mentioned a whopping 8600 times on the net? |
| 15:46:47 | kugel | maybe we name it alphabetical, and rename the current alphabetical to ascii? |
| 15:47:20 | kugel | Zagor: google has 8.370.000 hits |
| 15:47:38 | Zagor | kugel: for natural and sorting in the same page, yes. not for "natural sorting" |
| 15:47:41 | rasher | I still think human is fine - a normal human will NOT sort "Foo 10" between 1 and 2 |
| 15:47:41 | dionoea | alphabetical doesn't imply understanding the words, just comparing successive letters. So that wouldn't work |
| 15:47:42 | Llorean | We could just name the sorting methods "Exact" (or "Explicit") for the current one and "intelligent" for the new one. |
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| 15:48:17 | dionoea | number-aware sorting |
| 15:48:31 | rasher | How can you name something that sorts incorrectly "Exact"?! |
| 15:48:47 | dionoea | depends how you define "sorting correctly" |
| 15:48:47 | Llorean | Define incorrectly |
| 15:48:50 | kugel | Llorean: well, I proposed smart, it isn't too much different to "intelligent", is it? anyway, it seems rejected as a name |
| 15:48:59 | Llorean | It sorts based on the exact string, rather than by parsing the stringe. |
| 15:49:10 | rasher | Against all logical rules. |
| 15:49:22 | | Join gevaerts_away [0] (i=5292654d@rockbox/developer/gevaerts) |
| 15:49:22 | Llorean | Not *all* or it wouldn't exist as a sorting method at all... |
| 15:49:24 | rasher | Internal representation is irrelevant. |
| 15:49:39 | * | gevaerts_away likes "number-aware sorting" |
| 15:49:46 | | Join DerDome [0] (n=DerDome@dslb-082-083-222-221.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 15:50:03 | * | kugel likes smart and simple most |
| 15:50:09 | kugel | simple = ascii |
| 15:50:35 | rasher | It's a string for human consumption - not a just series of bytes |
| 15:50:46 | rasher | And should be sorted accordingly. |
| 15:51:05 | Llorean | rasher: But how that string is formatted is unpredictable. |
| 15:51:23 | Llorean | If it were predictable, we'd never have people complaining about it when our database's intelligent sorting gets things wrongs by mis-parsing a string. |
| 15:51:34 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 15:52:08 | kugel | well, that's due to more or less dumb filename-to-tag guessing |
| 15:52:53 | Llorean | You think it's possible to do it perfectly, every time? |
| 15:53:04 | kugel | no |
| 15:53:11 | Llorean | Then it will always sometimes be dumb. |
| 15:53:24 | kugel | I just wouldn't offer that "feauture" |
| 15:53:29 | Llorean | The advantage of ascii is that it's dumb in a consistent way, whereas when you add intelligence sometimes you *can't* work around the dumbness. |
| 15:54:10 | kugel | the natural/whatever is pretty predictable imo |
| 15:54:29 | kugel | just by judging after human logic |
| 15:54:50 | pixelma | but you can't work around easily in cases where it's not - in contrast to ascii sorting |
| 15:54:57 | Llorean | My point, yes. |
| 15:55:05 | kugel | where it's not? |
| 15:55:09 | Zagor | wikipedia calls it numerical. /bin/sort calls it numeric. perldoc calls it numerical. php calls it numeric. |
| 15:55:17 | Llorean | For example, "007" (as in, James Bond" is treated as just the number 7 |
| 15:55:34 | Llorean | Putting it between 6 and 8 without the leading zeros looks very odd. |
| 15:56:07 | Llorean | Sometimes numbers *aren't* just numbers. |
| 15:56:28 | kugel | I'd predict that |
| 15:56:48 | pixelma | maybe, but how would you prevent that? |
| 15:57:04 | kugel | prevent what? |
| 15:57:06 | dionoea | if(!strcmp("007",...)) :) |
| 15:57:22 | Llorean | It being put there if you don't want it there because to you it's *not* just the number 7 |
| 15:57:31 | kugel | where would you put it then? |
| 15:57:38 | kugel | at the top, like ascii would do? |
| 15:57:42 | Llorean | Yes. |
| 15:57:45 | kugel | that doesn't make any sense either |
| 15:57:50 | Llorean | It's Oh, Oh, 7 |
| 15:57:52 | Llorean | Not "seven" |
| 15:58:10 | kugel | it's 007, 6,60,7 |
| 15:58:13 | Llorean | If it were just 7, I wouldn't prefix it with zeroes |
| 15:58:19 | kugel | that's rigged, not logical in anyway |
| 15:58:32 | gevaerts_away | Possibly, but it's a real case |
| 15:58:42 | | Join mcuelenaere [0] (n=mcuelena@rockbox/developer/mcuelenaere) |
| 15:58:47 | kugel | anyway, people aren't thinking about how it's going to be sorted |
| 15:58:55 | * | gevaerts_away can live with 007, but 008 should make things crash |
| 15:58:59 | kugel | they're just expecting it to be sorted like it was in any other OS |
| 15:59:15 | Zagor | gevaerts_away: is it, really? will 007 ever be the actual sort key? |
| 15:59:17 | gevaerts_away | Are those consistent? |
| 15:59:46 | gevaerts_away | Zagor: I can well imagine album names starting with that |
| 16:00 |
| 16:00:13 | Zagor | gevaerts_away: true, I was thinking of track names only. |
| 16:00:14 | * | kugel thought we discussed on the name |
| 16:00:18 | Llorean | kugel: My point was merely that "natural" sorting is hard to work around if it sorts wrong, whereas ascii isn't. |
| 16:00:23 | Llorean | Natural sorting attempt to guess "meaning" |
| 16:00:25 | kugel | it seems we're back on "do we even want that" :/ |
| 16:00:37 | Zagor | we want it |
| 16:00:41 | * | Llorean isn't against it. |
| 16:00:45 | Zagor | and an option to turn it off :) |
| 16:00:47 | kugel | Llorean: ascii is only predictable for engineers |
| 16:01:02 | Llorean | kugel: Ascii is predictable for _anyone_ as long as they know it exists and how it works. |
| 16:01:09 | Llorean | Please, don't assign stereotypes. |
| 16:01:15 | Llorean | I know artists who are happy with ascii sorting. |
| 16:01:17 | kugel | and only engineers do know how it works |
| 16:01:21 | * | gevaerts_away denies being an engineer |
| 16:01:23 | Llorean | Look, don't be dumb |
| 16:01:56 | * | pixelma is no (software) engineer either |
| 16:01:56 | Llorean | It's not the way to handle this sort of discussion. |
| 16:01:57 | | Join {phoenix} [0] (n=dirk@p54B4752D.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 16:01:59 | * | GodEater_ is an analyst according to his business card |
| 16:01:59 | | Quit Anges (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 16:02:23 | * | jhMikeS has thought perhaps language files should include _how_ to do things (voicing and sorting) as well as basic strings. |
| 16:03:20 | kugel | I think the majority of people can't predict ascii sort, because they don't know what it is |
| 16:03:37 | kugel | of course, until they read in wikipedia about it or something |
| 16:03:44 | Zagor | kugel: it doesn't really matter how many can do either. both options are wanted, and that's that. |
| 16:04:19 | Llorean | My original point was only in justification of the phrase "Exact" in terms of strings and consistent predictability. |
| 16:04:24 | | Join jain [0] (n=jainbasi@202.83.54.139) |
| 16:05:28 | kugel | yea, exact will work |
| 16:05:49 | kugel | but that doesn't tell us how to name the "natural" sorting :( |
| 16:06:23 | Zagor | you can bet we will get support questions for "exact" anyway... "how much more exact than '9' and '11' can you get?" |
| 16:06:25 | Llorean | I think "Intelligent" is a better word than "Smart". "Smart" implies other ones are not-smart. "Intelligent" implies the other one doesn't have an 'intelligence' behind it. A subtle difference, but kinda accurate. |
| 16:06:51 | * | gevaerts_away still likes "number-aware sorting" |
| 16:07:22 | Llorean | I like "intelligent" because I guarantee over time someone's going to want to add some more "intelligence" to it, and sometimes it's going to be a good idea to do so. |
| 16:07:50 | kugel | I like intelligent too |
| 16:07:56 | Zagor | I don't |
| 16:08:12 | Zagor | it doesn't say anything about how it is intelligent |
| 16:08:14 | Llorean | The old sort could also just be "simple" or "string" |
| 16:08:29 | Llorean | Zagor: Do users need to know how it's intelligent, or just that it is going to do things differently? |
| 16:08:35 | Llorean | Especially if we default to it being on? |
| 16:09:02 | Zagor | Llorean: I would say users want to know what the different options do, yes. |
| 16:09:18 | | Join nibbler_ [0] (n=Nibbler@txx226.disy.net) |
| 16:09:31 | Llorean | There's a manual for it, that's always going to be better than what we name it. |
| 16:09:52 | Llorean | Something like "numerical" just means "using numbers." It still doesn't tell people who it uses them, or why the previous one isn't numerical. |
| 16:10:08 | Zagor | I disagree. I consider options that cannot be understood without reading the manual to be a failure. |
| 16:10:14 | | Quit nibbler_ (Client Quit) |
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| 16:10:54 | Llorean | That's bullshit, frankly. We have terms like "replaygain" and "crossfeed" many members will just have never heard of before. |
| 16:10:55 | Zagor | Llorean: I agree, but it says *more* than "smart", "intelligent" or anything else. it hints that the special thing has to do with numbers. |
| 16:10:57 | Llorean | Sometimes you have to define things. |
| 16:11:17 | | Quit petur (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
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| 16:11:36 | Zagor | Llorean: it's not bullshit. it's failure. some things we can't make intuitive, but that does not mean we should stop trying. |
| 16:11:58 | Llorean | I don't think we should try to make everything intuitive. |
| 16:12:13 | Llorean | I think that if the behaviour is complex, we should encourage people to seek a description of it. |
| 16:12:36 | Zagor | then let's call then 'a' and 'b'. |
| 16:12:42 | Llorean | If we have a sort that strips identical prefixes, drops leading zeroes, then tries to interpret numbers, a description might be nice. |
| 16:13:52 | Llorean | Calling it numerical is going to confuse people who think "01, 02, 03... 10, 11, 12" is already numerical. |
| 16:14:23 | Zagor | calling it "intelligent" is not going to help them any more |
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| 16:15:10 | Llorean | It adds the implication that the other system _isn't_ intelligent. |
| 16:15:34 | Zagor | "numeric" indicates "this option changes sorting in some way regarding numbers". no other name (except gevaerts') gives even that little hint. |
| 16:15:50 | Llorean | It indicates "this sorts based on numbers" |
| 16:16:02 | Zagor | and it does |
| 16:16:14 | dionoea | itsorts based on numbers and strings |
| 16:16:18 | dionoea | not numbers only |
| 16:16:25 | dionoea | hence the "number aware sort" :) |
| 16:16:26 | Zagor | dionoea: nobody said "only" |
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| 16:16:34 | dionoea | it's implicit |
| 16:16:45 | Llorean | We could also call it "alphabetic" then.. |
| 16:16:45 | Zagor | dionoea: no :-) |
| 16:16:47 | Llorean | Equally valid. |
| 16:17:05 | dionoea | Zagor: hehe :) |
| 16:17:05 | Zagor | Llorean: no, because nothing in regards to the alphabet changes with that algorithm |
| 16:17:25 | Llorean | Zagor: Changes relative to what? |
| 16:17:31 | Llorean | I thought it was going to be the new default. |
| 16:17:36 | Zagor | the other option |
| 16:17:47 | Llorean | You can't name it relative to the non-default option... |
| 16:17:59 | Zagor | of course we can |
| 16:18:55 | Llorean | If anything, you name the non-default relative to the default. Because nothing's "changed" if you leave it on the default. |
| 16:19:40 | Zagor | the options should have names that indicate what the difference is between choosing one over the other. |
| 16:19:55 | Zagor | which one is default has no immediate effect on its' name |
| 16:20:14 | Llorean | It does if you're not giving the other one a name that describes what changes too. |
| 16:20:23 | Zagor | that I can agree with |
| 16:20:42 | Zagor | the other should also be named carefully |
| 16:21:12 | Llorean | I just don't feel "numeric" is a particularly descriptive name. Telling "it has something to do with numbers" is also true of the other one. |
| 16:21:35 | Llorean | The simple sorting changes how numbers are sorted relative to the complex sorting in either direction. |
| 16:21:53 | Llorean | So I think we need a "how it's changed" word rather than a "what it changes" word. |
| 16:22:25 | Llorean | Which my word doesn't deal with either, yes. |
| 16:22:33 | Zagor | :) |
| 16:22:52 | Llorean | But as amiconn's pointed out in the other channel, the "numeric" sort will still have asciiisms in it. |
| 16:23:08 | Llorean | Since the non-numeric characters will still be sorted with accented letters out of place. |
| 16:23:28 | Zagor | absolutely |
| 16:23:44 | Llorean | So there's a target for that further added intelligence. :-P |
| 16:24:10 | Zagor | uh, no thanks :-) |
| 16:24:51 | gevaerts_away | You *can't* sort accented characters properly in a music context IMHO |
| 16:24:52 | Llorean | Maybe we could just name it something dumb, but clear, like "009 == 9" |
| 16:25:29 | Zagor | gevaerts_away: just add a locale tag in each file ;-) |
| 16:25:46 | dionoea | \<0*\([0-9]\)+\>==\1 ? |
| 16:25:48 | Llorean | Or even call the category "numeric sorting" rather than sorting, and name them "1, 10, 2" and "1, 2, 10" |
| 16:25:55 | * | dionoea doubts that people would understand that though |
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| 16:26:20 | Zagor | Llorean: there's a fresh idea! |
| 16:26:29 | kugel | Llorean: now that's descriptive |
| 16:26:45 | dionoea | Llorean: add one with a leading 0 too in the example |
| 16:26:53 | dionoea | like 03 |
| 16:27:15 | gevaerts_away | Zagor: sure. Now how do you compare two files with a different locale? |
| 16:28:04 | Zagor | gevaerts_away: I know |
| 16:28:24 | Zagor | (that it can't be done) |
| 16:29:02 | kugel | dionoea: don't or 007 ;) |
| 16:29:11 | kugel | s/don't// |
| 16:29:34 | jhMikeS | eh? can't be done? /me no like "can't be dones" |
| 16:30:13 | Zagor | jhMikeS: one locale dictates that å sorts before b, another that it sorts after z. |
| 16:30:52 | * | Llorean would think sorting should be a factor of the user's locale, not the file's locale. |
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| 16:31:06 | * | kugel wants sort tables in .lang files :) |
| 16:31:22 | jhMikeS | Two files, two different locales. I'd expect it to sort according to _my_ locale really. |
| 16:31:33 | Zagor | we can sort alright, but there would always be those claiming we did it wrong |
| 16:31:47 | Zagor | jhMikeS: not the authors locale? you'll get the tracks in wrong order... |
| 16:32:14 | Llorean | Zagor: Only if they're expected to be sorted by something other than their track number... |
| 16:32:17 | Zagor | not so fun for audiobooks :-) |
| 16:32:45 | | Quit jain (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 16:33:04 | jhMikeS | I'm sure other sticky instances that requires psychic software and/or hardware can be deal with by the user |
| 16:33:51 | Llorean | Like prepending track numbers for non-numbered files. ;) |
| 16:35:13 | jhMikeS | I always number my own files when ripping and tagging. |
| 16:36:17 | kugel | so, the decision on the name is delayed? |
| 16:36:51 | gevaerts_away | Llorean: the user's locale might not handle the filenames |
| 16:37:27 | Llorean | gevaerts_away: Then we ascii(ish) sort, since we already do that anyway. :-P |
| 16:37:50 | * | gevaerts_away wants to know how German locale is supposed to sort カ vs री |
| 16:38:17 | kugel | not at all, it segfaults :P |
| 16:38:19 | gevaerts_away | And there's another problem with that. Transliterations |
| 16:39:05 | Zagor | I think we've strayed away from the topic a bit here :) |
| 16:40:10 | Zagor | kugel: I say go with Llorean's last idea. if that causes an uproar we can always have a new discussion... |
| 16:40:17 | Llorean | "03, 10, 2" and "2, 03, 10" is probably the shortest way to illustrate the sorting differences. |
| 16:40:26 | kugel | yea, I like that too actually |
| 16:40:47 | kugel | some times illustrative examples tell more than 1000 words |
| 16:41:08 | * | dionoea 's sure that you could come up with a coherent explanation in less than 1000 words |
| 16:41:09 | jhMikeS | I would find things messing with my carefully numbered filenames exceedingly annoying :) |
| 16:41:58 | kugel | Zagor, Llorean: and it doesn't even need to be translated ;) |
| 16:44:55 | rasher | Zagor: PHP does *not* call it numeric sort - http://php.net/natsort |
| 16:45:17 | Zagor | rasher: http://se2.php.net/sort |
| 16:45:27 | dionoea | You could add an option to change the way it's called :D |
| 16:45:39 | kugel | seems php is as split about as we are? :) |
| 16:45:45 | rasher | Zagor: That's not the same thing. |
| 16:46:18 | rasher | .. I'm pretty sure, anyway. |
| 16:47:09 | dionoea | numeric sort ignores leading zeros while natural sort doesn't according to what I see on the php website |
| 16:47:44 | Zagor | dionoea: yeah, that's what I see too. which means our sort is numeric. :-) |
| 16:47:46 | dionoea | the site mentions sorting stuff with floats in the string like: 1.002 and 1.1 |
| 16:47:57 | dionoea | in which cas ignoring leading zeros is bad |
| 16:47:59 | dionoea | *case |
| 16:48:13 | * | Zagor stops arguing about this now |
| 16:49:00 | rasher | > POSIX sort(1) has the -n option to sort numbers, but this doesn't work if there is a non-numeric prefix. |
| 16:49:08 | rasher | According to "some site" |
| 16:51:39 | Llorean | is ours recursive? Like, will 001bob001.txt, 1bob001.txt and 001bob1.txt all resolve to the same (1bob1.txt) when sorting? |
| 16:51:59 | * | rasher knows nothing about the patch |
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| 17:37:19 | saratoga | for what its worth, when I was in school, they taught us about "natural sorting" and I have never heard another name for it, at least in the US |
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| 17:45:43 | LambdaCalculus37 | saratoga: That's the only name I know by as well. |
| 17:46:01 | * | LambdaCalculus37 adds an "it" between "know" and "by" |
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| 17:47:23 | kugel | hence I said it's resonable to go with the de-facto, even if it's not 100% accurate, but at least people will now what it means |
| 17:47:40 | saratoga | it may be specific to US english |
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| 17:48:21 | kugel | but I like the "2 03 10" and "03 10 2" suggestion quite much |
| 17:49:26 | rasher | That seems good. |
| 17:50:38 | kugel | maybe it should be implemented as a 3-line selection list (so that these are above each other) to make the idea behind the naming more obious? |
| 17:51:36 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
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| 17:52:32 | rasher | How about just: "Sort: 2 03 10" / "Sort: 03 10 2" |
| 17:52:43 | rasher | To make it clear that it's a sort-example |
| 17:52:57 | kugel | sounds good too |
| 17:53:05 | RockBoxNoob | I have a question about dual booting an 2nd gen. iPod Mini... |
| 17:54:32 | RockBoxNoob | I couldn't seem to find the info that I needed (in the manual or the boards) |
| 17:55:43 | kadoban | RockBoxNoob: don't ask to ask, just ask what you need. it saves time :) |
| 17:55:53 | RockBoxNoob | thanks. |
| 17:56:28 | RockBoxNoob | I have it booted in the Apple firmware, how do I get back to rockbox now? |
| 17:56:39 | LambdaCalculus37 | Press and hold MENU+SELECT until the mini reboots. |
| 17:56:46 | LambdaCalculus37 | And the info is right here in the manual: http://download.rockbox.org/manual/rockbox-ipodmini2g/rockbox-buildch3.html#x5-290003.1.3 |
| 17:57:00 | RockBoxNoob | I have tried that to no avail |
| 17:57:17 | rasher | How long did you hold it? Try holding it longer... |
| 17:57:34 | kadoban | RockBoxNoob: i don't have that specific device, but on others it's somewhat difficult. if you press other buttons at the same time, or yeah don't hold it long enough, it won't work |
| 17:57:42 | RockBoxNoob | 5-odd seconds. OK |
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| 17:57:58 | rasher | Pretty sure it's closer to 15-20 |
| 17:58:12 | RockBoxNoob | OK |
| 17:59:14 | * | LambdaCalculus37 makes sure that the manual says to "press and hold Menu and Select" |
| 17:59:34 | LambdaCalculus37 | Well, it says "pressing and holding", but you get the idea. :) |
| 18:00 |
| 18:00:03 | RockBoxNoob | Tried it... rebooted, Apple appeard, the booted back into Apple firmware. |
| 18:00:37 | LambdaCalculus37 | You didn't click the hold switch on during the bootup, did you? |
| 18:00:49 | RockBoxNoob | nope |
| 18:01:02 | LambdaCalculus37 | Is it connected to a dock or to your computer? |
| 18:01:25 | LambdaCalculus37 | Or... |
| 18:01:30 | LambdaCalculus37 | Did you install the bootloader? |
| 18:01:30 | | Quit RockBoxNoob ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") |
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| 18:01:50 | RockBoxNoob | It is not connected in any way. |
| 18:01:51 | * | LambdaCalculus37 tries that from the top |
| 18:01:58 | LambdaCalculus37 | Is this a brand new install? |
| 18:02:09 | RockBoxNoob | Yes, new install |
| 18:02:17 | LambdaCalculus37 | Did you install the bootloader? |
| 18:02:25 | RockBoxNoob | Yes |
| 18:02:57 | LambdaCalculus37 | Are you sure? You used iPodpatcher or Rockbox Utility and asked it to install the bootloader for the iPod? |
| 18:03:01 | RockBoxNoob | I noticed some talk about issues w/ 2nd Gen. Mini's on the boards |
| 18:03:18 | * | LambdaCalculus37 has one that works just fine, and he had no issues installing |
| 18:03:34 | RockBoxNoob | I used The utility |
| 18:04:05 | LambdaCalculus37 | Try with iPodpatcher. What OS? |
| 18:04:14 | kadoban | is there some way that i can bring defines in from my plugin header files to the manual files (in order to use them in \opt{}s and \nopt{}s), or is that not reasonable at all? |
| 18:04:40 | RockBoxNoob | I used Mac OS X |
| 18:05:12 | LambdaCalculus37 | http://download.rockbox.org/bootloader/ipod/ipodpatcher/macosx/ipodpatcher.dmg |
| 18:05:39 | rasher | kadoban: I believe you can use the HAVE_* defines in the manual, not sure what else is available - have a look around the manual. As for bringing in defines, I don't know how reasonable that sounds |
| 18:05:55 | RockBoxNoob | Thanks so much! :-) |
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| 18:06:15 | kadoban | rasher: alright, thanks...i guess it's probably not possible |
| 18:06:48 | rasher | kadoban: Can't you use the already available defines? |
| 18:07:21 | kadoban | rasher: yes, but if i could import my own defines the logic would be much easier, and it wouldn't need to be updated for new targets |
| 18:08:00 | rasher | Ah true. I think you'll have to duplicate the logic from your plugin, basically. |
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| 18:08:53 | LambdaCalculus37 | RockBoxNoob: Run iPodpatcher from the Terminal, and make sure to run it as root (e.g. sudo ./ipodpatcher) |
| 18:10:55 | RockBoxNoob | Thanks. I used sudo. Seems to have fixed it. |
| 18:11:38 | n1s | kadoban: the list of automatically generated opts for the manuals is in the features.txt file |
| 18:11:40 | RockBoxNoob | I tired rbutilqt to attempt to fix it before. It stated taht it was already installed. |
| 18:12:28 | RockBoxNoob | Thanks for all your of help and you great work here! Keep up the good work! |
| 18:12:48 | kadoban | n1s: ah, thank you...i was just looking for that :) |
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| 18:15:16 | LambdaCalculus37 | RockBoxNoob: Enjoy! :) |
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| 18:33:16 | kugel | saratoga, Llorean: I'm going to use http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/9662 for a few days, to see which possibly unexpected changes the patch introduces, and commit if it's fine. You may want to give it some testing as well |
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| 19:00 |
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| 19:20:17 | saratoga | does anyone actually have floor0 vorbis files? |
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| 19:27:25 | preglow | i saw one once... |
| 19:27:49 | preglow | why? |
| 19:28:25 | n1s | i think i have 2 for testing somewhere |
| 19:29:57 | saratoga | preglow: I just pulled some of their IRAM |
| 19:30:09 | saratoga | since it seemed to have little impact on their decoding performance, at least on PP |
| 19:30:47 | saratoga | and eventually I'd like to remove support for them entirely on lowmem targets |
| 19:30:58 | amiconn | On coldfire things are *way* different regarding performance and IRAM |
| 19:31:01 | saratoga | since they seem to require an extra half MB of memory |
| 19:31:14 | amiconn | Also don't forget PP5002 |
| 19:31:30 | preglow | yeah, but seriously, how many use floor0 files? |
| 19:31:34 | preglow | like 0.00001%? |
| 19:31:40 | saratoga | they haven't been used in 6 years by Xiph |
| 19:31:41 | preglow | i think this is ok, we have to be realistic |
| 19:31:48 | amiconn | Well, either we should support them properly, or not at all |
| 19:31:55 | preglow | amiconn: agreed |
| 19:32:06 | saratoga | well as long as they're real time i'm not too concerned |
| 19:32:09 | n1s | i think that bad performance for floor0 can be accepted but we should play them if at all possible |
| 19:32:15 | preglow | then test and see |
| 19:32:24 | preglow | i wouldn't be completely opposed to removing floor0 support |
| 19:32:26 | | Join domonoky [0] (n=Domonoky@rockbox/developer/domonoky) |
| 19:32:33 | saratoga | i think it makes sense on a lot of targets |
| 19:32:47 | saratoga | an extra 500KB of buffer for hd targets would be quite nice |
| 19:32:51 | preglow | another option is splitting up the vorbis codec to handle each file type separately |
| 19:32:51 | preglow | but we might not wanna go that way |
| 19:32:52 | amiconn | n1s: Unless I missed something, making things slower than for standard vorbis files will easily make them non-realtime on PP5002 |
| 19:33:05 | n1s | what exactly do we gain from dropping support for them? |
| 19:33:12 | preglow | iram, it seems |
| 19:33:15 | preglow | more speed for ordinary files |
| 19:33:19 | n1s | amiconn: ah, didn't realize they were that slow |
| 19:33:25 | saratoga | no we don't need IRAM to decode them, at least i doubt it |
| 19:33:54 | preglow | some kind of init time iram_alloc() might be very practical |
| 19:34:08 | preglow | so a codec could decide it's iram use some time during init |
| 19:34:23 | preglow | then we could alloc full iram for both floor0 and floor1 |
| 19:34:33 | saratoga | mostly i'd like to shirnk the codec buffer to 512KB, and that will mean dropping them |
| 19:34:52 | preglow | how big is it now again? |
| 19:34:55 | saratoga | 1MB |
| 19:34:56 | amiconn | Why do they need that much ram? |
| 19:35:19 | saratoga | amiconn: it allocates a ton of buffer space by design |
| 19:35:31 | | Quit bimbel ("Woah!") |
| 19:35:32 | saratoga | for this reason it was replaced but not depreciated by xiph |
| 19:35:40 | amiconn | Does it actually *use* all that ram? |
| 19:36:03 | saratoga | i'd be surprised if tremor malloc buffers it doesn't use |
| 19:36:08 | saratoga | but i can't say for sure |
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| 19:37:20 | amiconn | It probably won't allocate buffers it doesn't use at all, but (1) it might use less than what it allocates for each buffer and (2) it might not need all of them at the same time |
| 19:37:40 | preglow | you'll just run into the typical vorbis problem |
| 19:37:40 | | Quit j8048188 (Client Quit) |
| 19:37:41 | saratoga | anyway its premature to worry about now, since AAC needs to be fixed first, but once thats done supporting floor0 will be the only use for that extra buffer space |
| 19:37:51 | preglow | it wastes memoruy, but there is no hard limit |
| 19:38:22 | | Quit Horscht (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) |
| 19:38:41 | saratoga | and 500KB is an enormous amount of RAM to spend on a feature that few if any people ever need |
| 19:38:44 | n1s | amiconn: before the codec and malloc buffers were merged, the file in FS #5796 crashed −− it tried to malloc more than half a meg and exhaused the malloc buffer |
| 19:38:49 | amiconn | Well, we *could* add proper malloc for codecs and plugins. It might make debugging harder though... |
| 19:39:14 | saratoga | what would we use for the malloc buffer? |
| 19:39:43 | amiconn | The rest of the respective buffer: codec buffer for codecs, plugin buffer for plugins |
| 19:40:21 | saratoga | we'd still be wasting an enormous amount of memory just to support a beta version of the vorbis encoder |
| 19:40:22 | | Join bmbl [0] (n=Miranda@unaffiliated/bmbl) |
| 19:40:26 | amiconn | That's like it is now afaik, just that our el cheapo malloc doesn't have free() |
| 19:40:44 | saratoga | tremor actually has a tmp_malloc that can free IIRC |
| 19:41:20 | amiconn | saratoga: The question is whether we need nearly as much as we have now. Does the file in FS #5796 malloc everything at once, or in small chunks, calling free() inbetween? |
| 19:41:31 | saratoga | when i looked at mallocs in floor0, it seemed like there was 1 enormous malloc for several hundred KB |
| 19:41:35 | amiconn | saratoga: There's a nice 'bestfit' malloc somewhere on haxx... |
| 19:42:02 | amiconn | hmm |
| 19:42:03 | saratoga | let me double check what it did |
| 19:42:41 | amiconn | Is there any vorbis encoder that can produce floor0 files? |
| 19:42:49 | n1s | the problem with tremor imho is that the code is very resistant to reading :/ |
| 19:43:36 | saratoga | no i'm wrong theres 3-4 totalling several hundred KB |
| 19:44:23 | saratoga | n1s: that and the fact that Xiph puts no limits at all on how big each buffer can be |
| 19:44:42 | amiconn | Hmm: "No known Vorbis encoder past Xiph.org's own beta 4 makes use of floor 0" |
| 19:44:50 | amiconn | Do we need to support beta encoders? |
| 19:44:56 | saratoga | so we can't easily make assumptions about buffer sizes |
| 19:45:02 | saratoga | amiconn: Xiph says we do! |
| 19:45:03 | preglow | it's not really a practical problem |
| 19:45:06 | preglow | no one has floor0 files |
| 19:46:04 | | Quit Darksair ("People who are zhuangbility want to show their niubility but only reflect their shability.") |
| 19:46:21 | n1s | amiconn: the vorbis standard claims that floor0 should be supported and the fact that we've gotten bug reports about it suggests that some files are out there but they are probably not that many |
| 19:46:21 | amiconn | "Floor 1 is also considerably less expensive to decode than floor 0" <== That means floor0 might not even be realtime now... |
| 19:46:25 | preglow | if we were to disable floor0 support today, i doubt we'd hear a single complaint for a long time |
| 19:46:38 | saratoga | I'd really just like to remove it and see if anyone complains, then maybe point them to the last stable release or maybe a define int he config files that reenables it, in case theres some really old vorbis user out there |
| 19:46:40 | * | domonoky would think it would be okey, to detect floor0 files, and refuse to play them. |
| 19:46:44 | amiconn | (on some targets) |
| 19:46:57 | saratoga | people who tested beta versions of vorbis can probably compile anyway |
| 19:47:01 | n1s | I'm not against dropping support for floor0 as long as there is any gain from doing so |
| 19:47:32 | kadoban | is there a way to take a screenshot in the simulator? all of the external programs i'm trying aren't working well (they keep including the "resizing handle" on the bottom right) |
| 19:47:40 | domonoky | n1s: there is a gain. more free buffer |
| 19:48:16 | | Quit Anges (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 19:48:27 | saratoga | i just think its absurd that we fret about 20KB for image resizing while wasting 20x as much on codecs |
| 19:48:39 | n1s | domonoky: we can't shrink the codec buffer until aac is fixed |
| 19:49:01 | saratoga | true but fixing AAC is possible |
| 19:49:14 | saratoga | i'm hoping to get it done next week after I return from a trip |
| 19:49:37 | amiconn | saratoga: Does vorbis free some of those blocks before allocating the next? |
| 19:49:38 | domonoky | n1s: yes, but when its fixed, we can do it. Also the low-mem targets dont have a codec-buffer this big. So they probably just crash on such a file at moment... |
| 19:49:43 | | Quit japc (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) |
| 19:50:18 | saratoga | amiconn: I can't figure out what its doing, after a fair bit of effort I couldn't even figure out where the floor0 code is called from |
| 19:50:24 | n1s | domonoky: as i said, if there is any gain i'm not against it |
| 19:50:29 | saratoga | i just printed the malloc pointer instead |
| 19:51:00 | amiconn | Hmm. DEBUGF()ing in the sim should be possible. Just DEBUGF() the malloc() and free() calls |
| 19:51:11 | saratoga | amiconn: i'll do free right now |
| 19:51:40 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 19:52:04 | amiconn | Even if free() does nothing but print, it should still be possible to tell what tremor is actually doing, and then we can tell whether a better malloc implementation would help |
| 19:53:07 | pixelma | kadoban: F5 |
| 19:53:22 | * | amiconn wonders whether other DAPs supporting vorbis also support floor0 |
| 19:54:07 | bertrik | I could try a floor0 vorbis file on my sansa clip OF |
| 19:54:08 | preglow | saratoga: everything is called via function pointers, afaik |
| 19:54:48 | pixelma | kadoban: you should get a screenshot bmp in the simdisk dir when pressing F5 (long answer) |
| 19:55:06 | kadoban | pixelma: ah thanks, in simdisk :) |
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| 19:58:30 | saratoga | amiconn: many do not |
| 20:00 |
| 20:00:53 | bertrik | amiconn, if you can provide me with a sample floor0 vorbis file, I will try it |
| 20:01:09 | * | amiconn doesn't have one |
| 20:03:48 | saratoga | bertrik: theres one on the tracoker in FS #5796 |
| 20:06:59 | | Join Anges [0] (n=agnes@lns-bzn-49f-62-147-173-3.adsl.proxad.net) |
| 20:08:37 | bertrik | saratoga, the OF on my clip goes non-responsive when selecting that file for playback ... :/ |
| 20:10:45 | | Quit yhuang ("Leaving") |
| 20:12:29 | saratoga | bertrik: make sense, that file needs roughly 50% of the total memory on the clip to decode |
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| 20:19:14 | saratoga | amiconn: theres quite a few calls to free, I'll try and figure out a way to see how much memory they try to free |
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| 20:31:04 | saratoga | standard vorbis frees 98KB, floor 0 210KB |
| 20:32:44 | | Join massiveH [0] (n=massiveH@pool-72-88-218-123.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net) |
| 20:33:08 | | Quit massiveH (Client Quit) |
| 20:33:47 | saratoga | so a proper malloc would save ~40% of the memory we could save by dropping floor0 |
| 20:34:07 | saratoga | but if floor1 vorbis is the most memory hungry codec, it might be worth doing anyway |
| 20:36:43 | * | LambdaCalculus37 has no objections to dropping floor0 Vorbis support... he hasn't used that in ages, anyway |
| 20:37:53 | saratoga | i suppose a quick and dirty free implementation wouldn't be too hard anyway |
| 20:38:21 | saratoga | mallocs only happen during initialization, so performance is a nonissue, and we only need to worry about free |
| 20:39:08 | | Join kachna|lappy [0] (n=kachna@r4ax178.net.upc.cz) |
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| 20:41:51 | | Join QuickStart [0] (n=QUICKSTA@pool-72-88-190-6.nwrknj.east.verizon.net) |
| 20:42:38 | QuickStart | question when creating a wps where do the x and y coordinates start from for sansa e200 series |
| 20:42:39 | QuickStart | ? |
| 20:42:57 | | Join faemir [0] (n=daniel@88-106-244-173.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) |
| 20:42:57 | rasher | top-left |
| 20:43:02 | | Quit jbenj () |
| 20:43:07 | QuickStart | sweet thanks |
| 20:45:17 | dionoea | QuickStart: that's a general rule for most computer graphics in fact. (0,0) is always the top left corner |
| 20:47:44 | ze | unless its some vector apps, 3D apps, cad apps... then its often bottom left |
| 20:47:46 | | Quit miepchen^schlaf () |
| 20:48:41 | QuickStart | I just wanted to make sure |
| 20:48:51 | | Quit toffe82_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 20:49:01 | QuickStart | cause I am designing the wps in GIMP and wanted to make sure the same coordinates were sound |
| 20:53:21 | | Quit saratoga ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") |
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| 21:00 |
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| 21:07:04 | | Nick Xerion_ is now known as Xerion (n=xerion@cp198589-d.landg1.lb.home.nl) |
| 21:07:06 | | Join nibbler [0] (n=Nibbler@HSI-KBW-085-216-121-223.hsi.kabelbw.de) |
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| 21:09:23 | | Join LucasPestana [0] (n=bd3b72f4@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-f2644306f87fedf7) |
| 21:09:39 | LucasPestana | hey thre? |
| 21:09:52 | LucasPestana | is comebody online? |
| 21:10:15 | n1s | maybe |
| 21:10:19 | krazykit | many people are around. if you have a question, just ask |
| 21:10:19 | kadoban | LucasPestana: there is always someone here |
| 21:10:27 | LucasPestana | cool |
| 21:10:51 | LucasPestana | I'd to like to ask for some help |
| 21:11:47 | LucasPestana | I'm on a Win XP, and had just installed Rockbox on my player −− a iAUDIO X5 |
| 21:12:09 | | Quit bmbl (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) |
| 21:12:12 | LucasPestana | [btw, a 30 GB iAUDIO, if that makes nay difference] |
| 21:12:40 | LucasPestana | now, I'd like to install some patches |
| 21:13:20 | LambdaCalculus37 | LucasPestana: You have to use patches on the source code. |
| 21:13:45 | LucasPestana | ummm.... right... how do I do that? |
| 21:14:19 | LucasPestana | I've got some .DIFF abd .PATCH files... |
| 21:14:21 | kadoban | LucasPestana: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/DocsIndex#For_Developers first you need to set up a development envronment and get that working, then look how to deal with patches |
| 21:14:25 | LambdaCalculus37 | Read this page for information: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WorkingWithPatches |
| 21:14:25 | | Quit Neovanglist (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 21:14:31 | | Join grobkorn [0] (n=584a9d22@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-ec16e678cc734083) |
| 21:14:33 | | Quit Xerion (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 21:14:37 | grobkorn | hi channel |
| 21:14:39 | grobkorn | ;) |
| 21:14:47 | kadoban | (by the way, .diff and .patch are just different names for the same thing, in this case) |
| 21:15:02 | LambdaCalculus37 | grobkorn: This isn't a social channel. |
| 21:15:06 | | Join Xerion [0] (n=xerion@cp198589-d.landg1.lb.home.nl) |
| 21:15:42 | grobkorn | need help with rockbox - isnt that the right place for asking 1 question? |
| 21:15:47 | LucasPestana | oh, ok, thanx |
| 21:15:54 | LambdaCalculus37 | Ask your question. |
| 21:16:23 | | Quit jhulst (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 21:16:38 | grobkorn | have done that CFMOD... there comes "loading firmware... result: -1" but i cant find any help about that error-mesaage |
| 21:16:45 | LucasPestana | okay... I thin I'm gonna bother you, anyway −− how do I set the development environment on Win XP? |
| 21:17:07 | n1s | grobkorn: which player? |
| 21:17:16 | grobkorn | iriver h320, sorry, i forgot |
| 21:17:27 | kadoban | LucasPestana: it's on the page you were linked to. if you have specific questions we can answer them, but in general people aren't interested in holding your hand through it when there's already a document explaining it |
| 21:17:51 | grobkorn | got that adapter mentioned on the rockbox wiki and a adata 32gb sppedy CF card |
| 21:18:08 | n1s | grobkorn: can the Original Firmware read the card? and did you install a .rockbox dir on it (with all the files of course) |
| 21:18:26 | LucasPestana | ok, thanks |
| 21:19:24 | grobkorn | origianl firmware doesnt work (like explained in the wiki) ... i moved the rockbox.zip to the player and extracted ther in the root (the .rockbox folder exists) |
| 21:19:35 | grobkorn | i can acess the cf card by usb |
| 21:20:20 | grobkorn | i had rockbox installed on my HDD too |
| 21:20:27 | grobkorn | bootloader is installed |
| 21:20:32 | grobkorn | but hdd crashed |
| 21:21:16 | PaulJam | grobkorn: have you installed the inofficial bootloader from the CFModGuide wiki page? the official one doesn't support CF cards |
| 21:21:17 | | Quit Xerion (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) |
| 21:21:30 | mcuelenaere | do bootloaders have an audio buffer allocated? |
| 21:21:45 | mcuelenaere | (or access to audio_get_buffer() ?) |
| 21:21:51 | n1s | they shouldn't and i don't think they do |
| 21:22:01 | grobkorn | rockbox utility does not work with that hex file |
| 21:22:48 | grobkorn | aborts and says: not a correct firmware |
| 21:23:31 | PaulJam | well, to update the bootloader you have to use the original firmware. so you'll probably have to (temporarily) install a working harddrive in order to update the bootloader. |
| 21:23:31 | n1s | grobkorn: you don't need to do anything with a hex file if you already have the rockbox bootloader installed, but how does the Original firmware fail? |
| 21:24:04 | n1s | or is there an unofficial one required for CF modded players? |
| 21:24:21 | PaulJam | n1s: the official bootloader doesn't support CF cards on the H300 |
| 21:24:37 | grobkorn | in the CFModGuide they say −−> OF does not work.... OF aborts booting with: CHECK HDD CONNECTION |
| 21:24:46 | rasher | grobkorn: Rockbox Utility will not install unofficial firmwares |
| 21:24:59 | grobkorn | aaaah |
| 21:25:16 | grobkorn | how can i install unofficial firmware WIRTHOUT OF? |
| 21:25:40 | n1s | PaulJam: oh, i was under the impression CF cards had the same interface as the HD's an should "just work", what is needed to support them? |
| 21:26:09 | | Join Xerion [0] (n=xerion@82-170-197-160.ip.telfort.nl) |
| 21:26:15 | n1s | grobkorn: short answer, you can't |
| 21:26:15 | | Quit LucasPestana ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") |
| 21:27:00 | n1s | it would be possible to flash from rockbox if you could start it and adapted the h100 flashing plugin but _very_ risky and not easy at all |
| 21:27:17 | mcuelenaere | can anyone with a Rockbox USB stack-compatible device test what speed they get when the RAM disk is enabled? (dd if=/dev/sdX of=/dev/null count=1024) |
| 21:27:45 | grobkorn | waaa? then my player is broken and i cant MOD them??? :( |
| 21:28:19 | n1s | grobkorn: apparently you need a working hd |
| 21:28:34 | grobkorn | oh noooo |
| 21:28:58 | PaulJam | n1s: i have no idea what was needed to support them, but the commit was done after the last official bootloader was released, so the last one doesn't contain those changes. |
| 21:29:21 | * | n1s wonders if we will see a new official h300 bootloader released |
| 21:29:55 | n1s | PaulJam: ah, i somehow got the impression that the CF fixes were specific to pp based players |
| 21:29:58 | grobkorn | damn... |
| 21:30:10 | PaulJam | n1s: there is still the problem that a SVN bootloader crashes for some people. |
| 21:30:22 | | Quit grobkorn ("CGI:IRC") |
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| 21:31:18 | grobkorn | but what does RESULT -1 mean |
| 21:31:32 | grobkorn | . |
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| 21:32:11 | rasher | grobkorn: that it can't load the rockbox binary I believe |
| 21:33:21 | | Join gevaerts [0] (n=fg@rockbox/developer/gevaerts) |
| 21:34:47 | mcuelenaere | gevaerts: why is ramdisk_buffer = tb.transfer_buffer + BUFFER_SIZE*2; ? |
| 21:35:23 | mcuelenaere | ah never mind |
| 21:36:45 | grobkorn | ok - thank you guys for your help |
| 21:36:55 | grobkorn | try to get a hdd ;( |
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| 21:51:44 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
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| 22:00 |
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| 22:19:01 | l403 | hello |
| 22:21:58 | l403 | I opened up my Meizu M6SL. markun, do you need pictures of the inside? I looked on the port page and the link to the meizu forum with internal pictures seems to be broken. don;t know wether they weren't pics of SP |
| 22:22:13 | | Quit DataGhost (Nick collision from services.) |
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| 22:30:27 | | Quit sarixe ("Connection reset by the motherfucking peer") |
| 22:31:28 | mcuelenaere | l403: it's always nice to have some extra pictures |
| 22:34:04 | l403 | well, I managed to pop off the back cover but can't flip out the pcb to see the other side. I see the samsung ARM, something that might be the codec and maybe a power manager so don't know if I should try to open it. |
| 22:41:52 | gevaerts | If you find an easy way to do it, go ahead, but don't break your player in the attempt... |
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| 22:52:10 | l403 | hi gevaerts :) how is it going? I opened it cause it wouldn't turn on cause some moisture/water got in and I thought its dead but then I found an oxidized robon connector guess coming out of the sensor, so I cleaned it and it works again |
| 22:52:58 | gevaerts | l403: I hope to work on the meizu again soon :) |
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| 22:55:13 | l403 | alot of ppl do :D |
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| 23:17:41 | l403 | gevaerts: where shouold I put my findings? shouold I try to insert it somwhere appropriate in the wiki or just leave a post in the forum and some of you willl organize it conviniently into the wiki? |
| 23:18:21 | gevaerts | l403: attach them somewhere on the wiki. If someone finds a better place later they can easily be moved |
| 23:18:36 | Llorean | But you should try to be appropriate if you can. |
| 23:18:43 | l403 | okeley dokeley |
| 23:20:16 | gevaerts | http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/MeizuM6Port has some pictures already (of the M6SP I guess). |
| 23:20:45 | gevaerts | At least it has links to pictures that once existed... |
| 23:22:54 | l403 | I cant loaod the link to meizu forum foor the SL picturez |
| 23:23:53 | l403 | argh, I don't feel like filling in my ral name in the wiki registration :-( |
| 23:24:12 | | Nick pixelma_ is now known as pixelma (n=pixelma@rockbox/staff/pixelma) |
| 23:24:59 | l403 | I guess I'll have to leave it somewhere in the pastebin for you when I'm finished |
| 23:25:31 | gevaerts | That doesn't really solve things. We generally don't like to not know where content comes from |
| 23:28:03 | gevaerts | i.e. the real name policy isn't there to be difficult, it's there to be reasonably sure of copyright status of material. Putting things on a pastebin anonymously for someone else to put them on a wiki goes directly against that |
| 23:29:27 | l403 | I, the copyright hollder of the work that is yet to be done :D releasy it under public dumain :D |
| 23:29:43 | gevaerts | OK. Then add a note with your name stating that :) |
| 23:29:55 | kadoban | l403: that's not very helpful unless anyone has any idea who you are :) |
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| 23:31:56 | l403 | ooh, man. first, I work, then I'll have a cigar and then think abouut how to publish it ;) |
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| 23:38:32 | Zagor | yikes, the vorbis code looks like it's written by someone with whitespace allergy! |
| 23:39:18 | Zagor | I'm surprised he wasted space indenting... |
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| 23:43:41 | amiconn | Zagor: That means you probably shouldn't look at code written by HCl either... |
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| 23:51:45 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
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| 23:56:50 | Zagor | amiconn: what did he write? |
icon identifies that the person is a core developer (has commit access).