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#rockbox log for 2009-02-10

00:02:45 Quit pixelma (Nick collision from services.)
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00:27:05 Quit at0m|c ("more has been done with less")
00:34:13kugelJdGordon: speaking of wps code, have you figured the difference between gwps.c and wps-common.c?
00:34:36JdGordonnot really...
00:35:22JdGordonI'm going to reaarange things a bit.. i tihnk gwps should be just the music screen, while -cmmon is more for drawing stuff, which i tihnk is close
00:35:36*JdGordon doesnt like the name wps which is being used for the theme engine
00:35:41kugelisn't the wps only drawing?
00:36:09kugelwhat's left if you seperate drawing from the rest of the wps
00:36:19 Join moos [0] (i=Mustapha@rockbox/staff/moos)
00:36:22JdGordonthe wps the screen? no there is all the button and playlist logic
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00:38:10kugelbtw, testing FS #8799 is appreciated too :)
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00:39:04kugelI think I'll commit it soon'ish, in a month or so, after exams and a -dev ml discussion
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00:47:14*amiconn wonders what's up with gcc
00:47:36amiconn"suggest parentheses around arithmetic in operand of |" wth?
00:47:55amiconnOperator precedence is well defined there...
00:48:43saratogai guess they figure bitwise stuff is rare enough that explicitly defining precedence is sensible
00:49:44amiconn& takes precendence over | the same way * takes precedence over + in arithmetic
00:49:55JdGordonjust because op precendence is defined, doesnt mean they follow it correctly :)
00:50:39saratogai'm sure they follow it they probably just assume many people dont remember
00:51:29amiconn...and hence they force knowing people to clutter their code with useless parentheses? .\
00:52:03*amiconn also found another arm gcc goof in the disassembly of that stuff
00:53:59Unhelpfulugh, so many useless parens, it does it for >>/<< and + as well
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01:05:28JdGordonpixelma: do you think it would be at all useful to be able to give images in .wps files proper names instead of just the single letter id's?
01:06:29 Part toffe82
01:10:54pixelmafirst reaction: not really because of more typing and might look weird for subimages in bitmap strips but haven't thought about this much. Of course you would be able to adress more than 52 but that's also a limit I didn't hit and is probably not so important anymore since bitmap strips
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01:12:18pixelmamight make the wps code a bit more readable though but that will still be in the hands of the author
01:13:17LloreanI think it's something not to worry about for now, unless WPSes end up becoming a lot more complex.
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01:49:04amiconnUsing SDL alpha blending works nicely :)
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01:55:16Unhelpfulamiconn: what for, greylib?
01:55:32amiconnNo, for simulating backlight of colour targets
01:55:45soapa text editor with contextual colouring would make WPS code more readable. "Proper names" for images would make some WPS lines ungodly long.
01:56:07amiconnI now have a patch (it's just a few lines) that dims the image to 1/3 when simulated backlight is off
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01:56:43Unhelpfulah... it would seem usable for greylib as well, you could have the background solid in the "off" color, the foreground solid in the "on" color, and put the grey values in the alpha channel
01:57:30amiconnI'm not sure whether the alpha stuff works that nicely for an 8 bit surface
01:57:38 Quit robin0800 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
01:57:57Lloreansoap: If we ever got a "WPS editor" GSoC that could be a feature for it.
01:58:03amiconnHmm, it would mean to switch to a true colour surface ...
01:58:24Unhelpfulcan you blend 8-bit images to a truecolor surface?
01:58:55amiconnYes, but only using a single alpha value for the whole source surface
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02:28:53CTokeHey, is there anywhere on the wiki that shows the Rockboy average fps on all targets? I checked on the plugin page, but it didn't show it.
02:36:56scorchei am sure that varies between different ROMs, so i would imagine that wouldnt be easy to accomplish
02:41:22CTokeOh, this is true. Are there any recommended tweaks to boost fps besides turning off sound?
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03:02:56saratoga"Clean up watermarking. Watermarks should not be defined by codecs, and should be time rather than space based. Also use much lower watermarks when having flash storage."
03:03:00saratogaisn't this already committed?
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05:01:27EvanCarrollanyone actively working on the view?
05:01:43EvanCarroll(Sansa View*)
05:02:35scorcheany progress of that nature is likely to be found in the corresponding thread in the new ports forum
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05:03:11EvanCarrollyea, i checked dead.
05:03:32EvanCarrollI just wrote a letter sansa, that is pretty much all i can do anyway
05:04:17 Quit Barahir_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
05:04:24EvanCarrollLuckily I don't have one, I just want a modern (still in production) flash mp3 plaayer
05:04:39EvanCarrolli just losot my e280
05:05:21saratogaEvanCarroll: you should probably look at the Fuze and Clip, since they're newer sandisk players with active ports
05:05:47saratogathe view is quite old now and likely to be discontinued, so I would not count on sandisk taking much interest in it
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05:07:50AlkaSeltzerwill flashing an ipod nano with rockbox still enable it to be used with an FM transmitter designed to plug in through the docking port?
05:08:05LloreanAlkaSeltzer: That depends on the FM transmitter.
05:08:16scorchewe dont flash ipods, and that depends on the transmitter as he said
05:09:45AlkaSeltzerOK thanks
05:10:08AlkaSeltzerwhen you say we, do you mean those that are talking now, or speaking for the channel?
05:10:25saratogahes talking about rockbox
05:10:28LloreanRockbox isn't flashed to install it on an iPod
05:10:34LloreanIt's just installed to the disk / internal storage.
05:15:02EvanCarrollsaratoga: by active you mean in development and not supported −− It doesn't matter much to me, which player it is, I just want to buy a working player
05:15:24saratogaEvanCarroll: I mean someone is actually working on a port
05:15:37saratogaif you want to buy a working player, buy a supported one
05:15:51EvanCarrollis there a support producting flash player?
05:16:22EvanCarrollright, which is why I wrote a letter to sansa.
05:18:20EvanCarrollfuze looks decent, I prefer long over fat
05:18:38saratogaand why I pointed that sandisk isn't going to care :)
05:19:28EvanCarrollabout rockbox in general, or about rockbox on the view as compaired to the fuze?
05:19:44LloreanBoth really.
05:20:32saratogai was mostly thinking of the later, since they stopped updating it almost a year ago
05:20:41EvanCarrollwhich is their perogative, but pestering them and showing them presence, and a willingness to buy their product if they comply is still the only way you can change that.
05:21:21saratoga"hey, about that product you no longer care about, here are some thoughts ..."
05:22:08EvanCarrollI'm not disputing addressing the View over the Fuze was a mistake, I'm just saying keeping quite will surely accomplish nothing.
05:22:48LloreanWell, Sandisk has more or less already shown us how (un)willing they are to help out.
05:22:49saratogagenerally complaining isn't preferable to doing nothing
05:23:00saratogaif you want a port, get to work, otherwise, doing nothing seems sensible
05:23:24ChrononAny ideas why mkamsboot is throwing this: "[ERR] Model name "clip" not found in bootloader.bin"?
05:23:49saratogaChronon: I think i got that when i feed it the wrong bootloader file
05:24:08EvanCarrollsaratoga: I can do database, I can do high level scripting languages, I can do some C −− I've never done any asm, and I don't have the slightest clue on how to write a driver.
05:24:56saratogaEvanCarroll: I wasn't really asking, just pointing out something
05:25:03EvanCarrolland when it comes to private companies supporting open source, bitching is *always* preferable.
05:25:07Chrononhmm. . . I definitely chose the clip in the configure script
05:25:11saratogaChronon: I think its the .sansa file not .bin ?
05:25:21ChrononOkay. Cheers
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07:09:40rockboxnewbieCan anyone in here give me some help, I am at a loss of what to do with intergrating a patch into pictureflow.
07:12:04 Quit Anges (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
07:19:43scorcherockboxnewbie: and what loss would that be?
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07:26:00rockboxnewbieI am thinking of install v15 patch,, for pictureflow. First would you recommend it, and seconly how to you apply the .diff file to the pictureflow.rock file
07:26:54krazykityou can't apply a diff to a .rock file
07:27:15rockboxnewbieOk, so how do you go about it?
07:27:17krazykityou need to apply it to the source and build it yourself
07:27:45rockboxnewbieWhere do I get the source file for pictureflow
07:27:55scorcherockboxnewbie: there are a number of pages in the wiki dedicated to this
07:28:13scorchecheck out the "for developers" section in the documentation index
07:30:49rockboxnewbieLike this page?
07:30:59rockboxnewbieOh, sorry, let me check somewhere else
07:31:14scorcherockbox wiki..
07:34:49rockboxnewbieNo luck
07:35:18rockboxnewbieCould it be this file on the google page,
07:35:38scorchewhat are you going on about?
07:36:18rockboxnewbieI am trying to find the source file as your described.
07:36:25rockboxnewbieyou described.
07:36:38scorche[23:27:56] <scorche> rockboxnewbie: there are a number of pages in the wiki dedicated to this
07:36:38scorche[23:28:14] <scorche> check out the "for developers" section in the documentation index
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09:08:00amiconnI'm undecided which method for determining the remote screendump filename is better:
09:08:15amiconn(1) Clone and modify the main screendump filename. Makes it clear which dumps belong together, but risks overwriting old remote dumps in certain situations (at least on targets w/o RTC).
09:09:25nm_Hey people
09:09:40nm_I think I might have bricked my Gigabeat S
09:09:54amiconn(2) Determine the remote screendump filename independently. No risk of overwriting, but also no strict relation between main & remote screendump name (again mostly affects non-RTC targets)
09:10:10nm_After flashing a dual boot nk.bin, it rebooted to recovery mode
09:10:38nm_It goes until it asks to connect to a PC, where it doesn't recognise that it's plugged in.
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09:11:49linuxstbnm_: You need to run sendfirm (or the Toshiba updater) to install an nk.bin again.
09:13:12nm_I can't because neither the gigabeat, nor my computer recognise that it's plugged in
09:13:37nm_Oh, wait
09:13:47nm_Something was wrong with the cable
09:13:55nm_I feel like an idiot
09:13:59nm_I just tried another one
09:14:03nm_oh wow
09:14:04*B4gder washes nm_'s mouth with soap
09:14:30nm_I can't express how I feel in words
09:14:46*linuxstb thinks soap may object to that
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09:15:16nm_Windows 7 makes a cute noise when something is plugged/unplugged
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09:19:03nm_Okay, I don't have Rockbox working, but at least the original firmware works again
09:19:28linuxstbnm_: Which version of the original firmware are you running?
09:20:03nm_I've got no idea, whichever one came in the ISO on the wiki
09:20:15nm_I used mknkboot with a bootloader I compiled from svn
09:20:29nm_And sent it with sendfirm
09:20:40nm_I'm going to repeat the process with this new, working usb cable
09:22:59JdGordonamiconn: is there any reason the screenshots actually need to be "linked" between screens?
09:23:39nm_Same problem I had yesterday, I've sent the modified nk.bin, unplugged the USB cable, it reboots, the bar fills, but it stop on the windows mobile screen
09:28:01amiconnJdGordon: What do you mean? I think that linked filenames make it easier to determine which main & remote dumps belong together. On non-RTC targets, screendumps are numbered. But if you main screendump files 0001 and 0002 already lying around, doing another dump would give you main dump 0003 but remote dump 0001 if they're not linked
09:29:26JdGordonyeah, but its fairly easy to figure out which is the one you want by either looking at it, or the file dates...
09:29:29amiconnAnd on target I don't see another way than taking both dumps at once. We only have one signal to trigger screendumps. What would be possible though is to select which screens should be dumped on usb detect: main, remote, or both. This selection would then forbid the filenames to be linked though
09:29:56JdGordonna, thats extra complication, I wouldnt bother
09:30:07amiconnJdGordon: On non-RTC there are no real dates (only on target of course)
09:30:20JdGordonwe could use the current tick for the filename instead of the number...
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09:31:55JdGordonanyway, I dont think having different filenames is a problem
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09:34:54linuxstbamiconn: What about using new names, something like "XXXXX_main.bmp" and "XXXXX_remote.bmp", with the same number/date ?
09:35:50amiconnFor date it's easy, but not for number. It would require to check both names with a given number for existence to not risk overwriting a dump
09:36:25amiconnThat's my concern in (1) - of course there would be a part which determines main and remote dump (in either case)
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09:37:20JdGordonwould it be possible to combine the 2 images into one bmp?
09:38:07GodEater_that's a better idea imo
09:39:16amiconnIt'd be either very difficult, or require to switch to 16 bit dumps for mono/grey displays as well. It would also look crap
09:39:31amiconnWhat to fill the empty corner with?
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09:40:52n1splease leave them as separate images, it would be a pain to make screenshots fro the manual if they were combined
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09:46:54JdGordonhow would people feel about commiting 9886 (wps ram usge rework) in its current state once the buffer size is made sane? its about 50% of the final patch but its starting to get big and easier its to review in little peices (assuming anyone wants to give it a once over?)
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09:48:49nm_n1s: You were able to help me the other day, you mind giving me a little help with my Gigabeat S?
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09:54:05linuxstbamiconn: Is it a problem to check both filenames?
09:54:46n1snm_: can't now, gtg
09:56:02GodEater_nm_: the S really isn't a supported target yet
09:56:03nm_Cool, no problem
09:56:32nm_GodEater_:Yeah, i'm aware of that, however I'm sick of MTP and Windows
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10:31:38amiconnlinuxstb: It would require special code just for screendump, which should rather be kept small as it's not a major feature.
10:32:09jhMikeSchanges to tools/configure alone don't trigger builds? hmm.
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10:46:03cool_walking_Does anyone know what "dir" and "daily" commands SimpleGuideToCompiling is referring to? It seems to have assumed Cygwin (despite linking to the various other guides for VMware, coLinux, etc.), which has no "daily" or "dir" commands AFAIK.
10:49:57nm_daily isn't a command, and substitute dir with ls
10:50:34nm_mind linking the article?
10:51:07cool_walking_I think it's just talking nonsense, so I'm gonna blow it away.
10:51:25nm_It didn't make much sense to me either
10:51:42nm_I'd suggest following the guide on setting up cygwin, and wing it from there
10:51:57cool_walking_I'm not following it, just editing it to make it make sense.
10:51:57nm_If you have a basic idea on how to compile a package
10:59:19BigBambicool_walking_: I think it was an alias is an ancient version of something
10:59:29BigBambiBut yes, it should go
11:00:16nm_My cygwin $PATH variable includes the default windows binary directories, and dir works fine
11:02:02nm_And, for some reason, it included the arm cross compiler directory, which was nice, it's hard to edit /etc/profile without a root account lol
11:02:09cool_walking_Well I don't have access to Cygwin right now, but I think I can do alright from memory, and what's there currently is useless anyway.
11:02:35nm_It's good practice to use native POSIX compatible commands anyway
11:02:59linuxstbamiconn: Ah yes, I forgot it was a generic function...
11:03:07nm_Who knows what kind of things could go wrong using windows native binaries from within bash
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11:27:14havienbrb doing a global upgrade
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11:40:54cool_walking_Is it alright to leave the nomenclature "Bleeding Edge"? I actually think it sounds better and less ambiguous than "current build".
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11:58:22BigBambicool_walking_: It does sound less reliable though
11:58:51BigBambicool_walking_: i.e. I almost expect something labelled bleeding esge to fail, and that isn't usually the case with current builds
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12:02:00zebleeding edge isn't cutting edge enough! maybe you should make it dismembered edge
12:02:13robin0800cool_walking_: It would be nice perhaps to have a time on the daily build or build it always at a set time and say so
12:02:48cool_walking_I just think "current build" can easily be mistook to mean "current release" or "daily build".
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12:04:13BigBambirobin0800: The daily build is just a current build done at the same time everyday
12:04:43BigBambicool_walking_: Perhaps - I just thing bleeding edge sounds a bit too much like "use this at your peril"
12:05:34robin0800BigBambi: I know but what time ?
12:05:47BigBambirobin0800: 06:00 UTC IIRC
12:05:59kadobanBigBambi: isn't that what they are? the page even says that they "may be buggy or unusable"
12:06:17B4gder06:00 CET actuall
12:06:35robin0800BigBambi: Could that be added to the page?
12:06:36BigBambikadoban: That very usually isn't the case, and normally the first thing we do is tell people to use the current build
12:06:45BigBambiB4gder: Half right then :)
12:07:19B4gderyeah, and they take perhaps an hour so the last ones are done at 06:00 UTC! ;-)
12:07:24cool_walking_The current page pretty much says that anyway. It (inexplicably IMO) advocates the Daily Build over the Bleeding Edge. I'd think the Daily Build would have more chance of having a bug, because Bleeding Edge could already have fixed it.
12:07:29BigBambiThe daily build is only useful for archiving and on the rare occasion when the current build is broken (and normally only for 5 minutes)
12:07:41cool_walking_"that" being "use this at your peril"
12:07:56gevaertscool_walking_: that doesn't follow...
12:08:29BigBambirobin0800: Why does it matter?
12:09:38gevaertscool_walking_: any single revision has the same chance of being broken. Since the daily build is not hand-picked in any way the probability of it being broken is exactly the same as that of the latest current build
12:10:14robin0800BigBambi: Easy to see what has changed since it was built, though now I know its 06.00 I can do it
12:10:15cool_walking_Well if it's the same I'm going to prefer Bleeding Edge, because it has more features.
12:10:23BigBambiAnd a broken current build is usually fixed very quickly
12:10:29B4gderwell, doing the maths correctly actually not all have the same risk...
12:10:34BigBambirobin0800: Why are you using the daily build anyway?
12:10:41B4gderbut perhaps I should shutup ;-)
12:12:42BigBambicool_walking_: This is my point, I don't understand why a) anyone uses the daily build over the current build (unless at that exact time the current build is broken - rare) and b) why it says anywhere to use daily over current build - it shouyldn't
12:12:44robin0800BigBambi: I don't Perhaps now we have release perhaps we don't need daily any more Use Release or Current?
12:12:49BigBambi"it" being the site
12:12:59BigBambirobin0800: It has been like that for ages
12:13:08BigBambiWe have always said use current not daily
12:13:26BigBambiThe release doesn't change that
12:13:59robin0800BigBambi: Do we still need Daily?
12:14:07B4gderdo they hurt?
12:14:13BigBambiRob2222: yes, for archiving
12:14:25B4gderand for easier finding backwards when a bug was introduced
12:14:27BigBambiRob2222: It helps people narrow down when something broke
12:14:32BigBambiwithout building
12:14:57BigBambirobin0800: If you note, the link to dailies hasn't been there for ages
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12:16:07robin0800BigBambi: The link is on the current build page
12:16:29BigBambiRob2222: I know. I'm also pretty sure I said
12:16:56BigBambiIn fact, no they aren't
12:17:06BigBambiThe current build page links to the release
12:17:11Richlvhi. is there any known work to support Iriver E-100 ?
12:17:31cool_walking_Richlv: check the New Ports forum.
12:17:44BigBambirobin0800: I agree with pointing people at the release over the current build, but daily over current build makes no sense
12:18:39robin0800BigBambi: daily build & voices link on current page
12:18:57BigBambirobin0800: Yes, but not as the "stable link"
12:19:17BigBambirobin0800: They have to be linked from somewhere, otherwise they would be utterly pointless
12:19:49BigBambirobin0800: It doesn't say "the current build might be buggy, get a daily" it says "the current build might be buggy, get the release"
12:20:39Richlv"no a port doesnt look likely.. the main chip has a wonderful iriver branding and we have absolutly no idea about it.. also the firmware image we have is encrypted so we cant get clues from that either"
12:21:37Richlv"All I really want to be able to do with my E100 is create valid playlists without the proprietary Windows-only software included with the device."
12:21:40Richlvok, that seriously sucks
12:21:49Richlvcool_walking_, thanks for the pointer
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12:24:04mrkikoCan someone riassume brifly how the qball's player story ended up?
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12:57:14cool_walking_Is this "Feedback & Thanks" section needed? It seems like the person who wrote it didn't know what a wiki is.
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13:07:00BigBambicool_walking_: link?
13:09:03cool_walking_I've saved my changes so far and left it for now.
13:09:22cool_walking_I think the rest of it still makes sense with my changes.
13:21:51BigBambicool_walking_: No, I guess not - this page was rather early on (years ago) and the result of some forum troubleshooting, so I guess he thought he'd be nice and stick it in
13:22:05Qballmrkiko: hi
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13:29:14cool_walking_BigBambi: Okay, out it goes. As do I.
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13:31:46kadobanAre any developers interested in helping me get a plugin submitted? (FS #7369) I'm willing to do whatever is necessary to get it ready, and I'll take initiative with any bug reports and porting to new targets if I can.
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13:37:48BigBambikadoban: Looks cool. Keep trying to attract attention :)
13:39:26mrkikokadoban: I can't help you. Aniway, what does the plugin ?
13:40:12kadobanBigBambi: thanks :)
13:40:16BigBambimrkiko: The flyspray entry explains that, unsurprisingly
13:40:28kadobanmrkiko: it's a plugin for playing Go, or recording/viewing Go games
13:41:05mrkikokadoban: thank you
13:41:53mooskadoban: is there any missing new target?
13:41:57Qballmrkiko little done. I tried getting more button info but that failed
13:42:34Qballthere are still issues with it not starting in usefull state
13:42:35kadobanmoos: the only current target it doesn't work on is the player, as far as I know.
13:42:45kadobanand it can't work on that, ever. so it's all good
13:43:11Qballand shutdown leaves a half drawn screen from time to time.
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13:43:22mooskadoban: then very nice, and you made the manual section...looks indeed good here, sure that will be in soon ;)
13:43:54kadobanmoos: :) thank you. i hope so
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13:45:08*moos is tempted to commit it like is :)
13:45:10mrkikoQball: ah ...
13:45:22mrkikoQball: are you aniway able to use the original firmware to listen to music again?
13:45:50Qballhaven't tried
13:45:58Qballas it is pointless for me to begin with
13:46:22Qballflac playing works ok most of the time
13:46:34Qballsoundquality is decent
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13:57:06BigBambikadoban: Might be an idea to try to bug someone with an M3 for keymapping
13:57:56B4gderI general we shouldn't make the lack of support for a few targets cause any halts in committing it
13:58:32BigBambiI don't think so, no
13:58:40kadobanBigBambi: hmm, good idea. anyone with an M3 around and not too busy?
13:58:42BigBambiEspecially if they are new ones
13:58:53BigBambikadoban: I think pixelma and amiconn have them
13:59:15BigBambiB4gder: But I think kadoban's is done for all targets in can be
13:59:30B4gderthen I'm for commit
13:59:52BigBambiBagder: He has even done the manual!
13:59:58B4gderwhoa, gold points!
14:00:55BigBambikadoban: I think for the M3 where there is no manual to go by, you don't have much choice
14:01:16BigBambiI just had a quick look for the H100, gigabeat F and Beast, and they look sensible
14:01:16kadobanBigBambi: yeah, i did the best i could, and i think it'll work okay...
14:01:23BigBambi(although I haven't tried it)
14:01:46kadobani spent a good bit of time looking at the manuals, so i /think/ most of them should be pretty good
14:01:58kadobanand the ipod and e200 ones are tested quite well
14:03:20pixelmakadoban: minor nitpick about the manual section - the line breaks in the long \opt lists lead to some buttons not showing up in some manuals (e.g. "Up" in the X5 manual) you would need to escape the line breaks as explained here . It's probably even better to simply use \nopt there
14:04:08*pixelma does not have an Iaudio M3
14:04:24kadobanpixelma: oh, thanks...i'll have a look
14:05:27BigBambipixelma: Sorry, I misread RockboxTesting
14:05:57pixelmathat can be fixed later of course, just as a note so it's not forgotten
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14:08:24kadobanoh okay, i see what's wrong now (i'm super bad at LaTeX)
14:12:59kadobanpixelma: i'm not sure i understand how i could use nopt in those places, but i added the %s and it seems to work now. i'll throw a new patch up for the manual
14:15:00*BigBambi checks kadoban's spelling :)
14:15:11pixelmawell if you only have one other \opt for e.g. the H10_PAD you could use \nopt{H10_PAD} for all the others (although that could lead to negative effects, sometimes positive effect too maybe, for targets added later)
14:15:15BigBambikadoban: To make sure to US English slips into the manual :)
14:15:35BigBambikadoban: btw: \emph {Handicap. } The the handicap of the current game. \\
14:15:53BigBambi(The double "the")
14:16:02kadobanBigBambi: haha, yeah...there's almsot guaranteed to be US english in there some where. ah, thanks
14:16:47kadobanpixelma: oh okay, i see
14:17:08pixelmamine was just an example, the correct option is probably called IRIVER_H10_PAD or something...
14:17:20kadobanyeah, i know what you mean
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14:25:47kadobani just threw up a new patch with those fixes, and whitespace fixes in the code
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14:37:15obogevaerts: would you be interested in a GPL'd host MTP implementation
14:38:14Zagoradd "suitable" to that list, and it gets interesting :-)
14:38:31gevaertsobo: host?
14:39:01*B4gder detects that FS #9885 contains code he wrote ~12 years ago
14:39:32obogevaerts: I put it on the wiki over a year ago, but I didn't realise it also included MTP code... The SansaConnect dumps I produced contain their MTP modules for the 2.6.8 kernel
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14:40:57*gevaerts downloads
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14:42:28oboThat's a not too clean diff between the linux tarball they made and the closest 2.6.4 release I could find
14:42:59gevaertsI'll have a close look at it tonight
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14:51:53Richlvany iriver h10 users here ? is missing features list on current ?
14:53:09gevaertsobo: it looks like this "mtp" driver is mostly a passthrough between the USB api and a userspace program that actually handles things
14:54:00obogevaerts: oh :( does it say the name of the program?
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15:01:31obogevaerts: just incase it turns out to be useful: - initrd.romfs and assets.tar.gz contain the filesystem for that device
15:06:58gevaertsobo: I very much doubt if that program would be GPL
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15:10:02*Unhelpful thinks it would be *much* more worthwhile on our software USB devices to do cdc-ether than mtp
15:11:11Zagorwith samba too?
15:11:27GodEater_somewhat small amount of work
15:11:39gevaertsUnhelpful: I think there is room for both actually
15:11:43Unhelpfulsamba or nfs seems obvious... web DB query and file xfer would be nice, as well.
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15:12:12Unhelpfulgevaerts: maybe, but i think the only thing mtp could do that ethernet could not would be interacting with mtp client applications.
15:13:20Zagormethinks ftp would rather more quick&easy than samba
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15:14:02Zagorotoh why on earth would we want anything other than ums?
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15:14:06gevaertsUnhelpful: true, but there are a lot of those around, and *if* we find a working mtp implementation that just needs to be ported I think mtp will likely be a lot simpler
15:14:26gevaertsZagor: realtime database updates and playback while usefully connected
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15:14:41Zagoryeah, I forget the database...
15:15:20Unhelpfulgevaerts: i'm not sure of that. does FAT have a unique inode-like number per file and directory?
15:15:26gevaertsI wouldn't underestimate the ability to continue using the device whilew copyig tens of gigabytes to it either :)
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15:16:40Unhelpfulmtp exposes a collection of objects identified by unique numeric IDs. files are by ID, their parent directories are by ID, etc.
15:16:51gevaertsUnhelpful: it doesn't. Are mtp file ids expected to be consistent across connections?
15:17:14ZagorUnhelpful: I don't see how ethernet is any different from ums in this regard. mtp is the #2 way to transfer files. ethernet is rather ... #76?
15:17:53gevaertswe could do rfc1149 with microSD cards as the transport
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15:18:36Unhelpfulgevaerts: i don't think they need to be... but i think we might end up walking the whole filesystem, and having to keep an id<->path mapping in memory, during the mtp session, unless we maintain such a mapping on disk.
15:19:24Zagorin the database?
15:20:02gevaertsUnhelpful: maybe a hash of the full path would work? Otherwise I think that requiring the database for mtp could be reasonable
15:20:47Zagorsince db is the whole point of mtp I think it's very reasonable
15:20:59Zagorok then, not the *whole* point :-)
15:21:06Unhelpfulthat seems reasonable.
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15:22:17Unhelpfullibmtp, and linux apps using it, have not been all that great in my experience. i would still rather http, ftp, or samba, really. but i'm not up to implementing *either*, so my opinion doesn't matter as much as that of one who decides to go ahead and code it. ;)
15:23:02Zagorthe problem with "anything else" is that there are no desktop applications that support it
15:23:19gevaertsI'm not terribly convinced that IP autoconfiguration would be very reliable
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15:30:15*BigBambi thinks UMS should be enough for anyone :)
15:31:03Unhelpfuland 640K ;)
15:31:14*gevaerts hands Unhelpful a clip
15:33:08GodEater_I can see at most, a world-wide demand for maybe five DAPS which have UMS.
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16:12:14rob_i seem to be being an idiot when it comes to installing themes on my ipod video 5g with latest rockbox
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16:13:06rob_if i go to Settings -> Theme Settings -> Browse Themes and then select the theme that i've extracted into rockbox, the 'now playing screen' often doesnt change properly or remains the previous layout
16:13:10rob_why could this happen?
16:17:54PaulJam_rob_: this usually happens when the theme is broken. If you want to fix it you find the current wps tags here:
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16:20:29LambdaCalculus37You can usually fix broken themes using a simple text editor and changing the invalid tags.
16:20:56rob_am i doing it correctly, do i need to manually select the WPS file as well as the 'theme' from 'browse themes'?
16:21:27rob_is there a known working theme?
16:21:38rob_i think even most of the themes that came with the installation of rockbox didnt work properly..
16:21:43rob_so i thought maybe its my technique thats wrong
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16:23:19rob_oh, i just tried phkTAPE and it works
16:23:23rob_so must just be broken themes
16:23:43GodEater_phkTAPE isn't one of the ones which "comes with" rockbox
16:23:53GodEater_there are only a few which are installed by default, and they should all work
16:24:20LambdaCalculus37And phkTAPE is quite old, to be honest.
16:24:37GodEater_so it's a miracle it works!
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16:26:14rob_GodEater_: i know, its one of the few that i added
16:28:02GodEater_I'm trying to think of the list of ones which do come with rockbox : cabbiev2, iCatcher, UniCatcher and Boxes
16:28:04GodEater_I think
16:28:07GodEater_there might be others
16:28:11GodEater_but it's a pretty short list
16:29:46rob_and rockbox_default/rockbox_default_icons
16:30:30GodEater_rockbox_default isn't a theme really
16:30:34GodEater_it's a lack of one :)
16:30:47GodEater_I don't think Rockboxed is shipped theme - but I could be wrong
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16:31:17rob_ah, rockbox_default is what is displayed if a theme is broken?
16:31:36rob_but its confusing because it seems to inherit some settings of the previously loaded theme
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16:33:02GodEater_yes, probably the background or something
16:33:13GodEater_or the font
16:33:30rob_thats quite annoying, it seems to happen with lots of themes
16:33:48rob_even the pre-installed ones
16:34:16GodEater_which pre-installed ones don't work ?
16:34:37rob_i loaded unicatcher after rockboxed and the font seemed too big for the scrolling text in the bottom box
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16:35:11*GodEater_ doesn't really know who's supposed to look after the shipped themes
16:35:37GodEater_I don't use anything other than cabbiev2 anyway
16:35:51rob_ive only just started using rockbox (yesterday)
16:36:25GodEater_well if there are problems with the shipped themes, we'd definitely like to fix those
16:36:26rob_it just seems a bit odd that so much effort has been put into something and then the inconsistant navigation and unmaintained interface/themes let it down
16:36:37rob_i suppose this is the nature of programmers ;)
16:36:55GodEater_"inconsistent navigation" ?
16:37:06rob_maybe its just me
16:37:18GodEater_the only themes "the project" looks after are the pre-installed ones
16:37:23GodEater_if they're broken, we want to fix them
16:37:38GodEater_anything else is user submitted, and there's not much we can do for those, except rely on people to fix them
16:37:47Unhelpfulthe navigation is fairly consistent in core. there are some plugins that definitely act weird.
16:38:22rob_the layout of the menu is a bit wierd, options seem ambigious
16:38:43GodEater_redoing the menu layouts is an ongoing project
16:38:52GodEater_which is fraught with differences of opinion
16:39:00rob_everything under 'settings' has 'settings' written after whatever sub-title entry it is
16:39:02GodEater_so feel free to step in and get your mits dirty
16:39:19rob_under theme settings, why do i have the options to browse themes and browse .wps files?
16:39:31rob_how do i know what the difference is between them and which one i need to select?
16:39:35GodEater_because they're independent of one another
16:39:36rob_its all unintuitive ;)
16:39:42kadobanrob_: you read the manual :)
16:39:52rob_kadoban: i did eventually
16:40:06rob_but reading the manual isnt an excuse to complicate matters ;)
16:40:22Unhelpfulnothing is intuitive in any meaningful sense. ;)
16:40:27GodEater_rob_: the trouble is Rockbox *is* complex
16:40:43GodEater_the only way to simplify it would be to remove a host of features
16:40:44rob_complicated systems can still have logical interfaces
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16:41:01GodEater_rob_: well as I said, feel free to give us one you think is better
16:41:04rob_im not saying simplify it, im saying make it unambigious and logical
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16:41:25rob_unfortunately im not schooled in user interface design
16:41:38GodEater_rob_: very few people are here
16:42:11rob_if, as you say, there are huge differences of opinion in how the menu should work
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16:42:19rob_i'd rather avoid getting involved in that debate :)
16:42:25GodEater_I didn't say "huge"
16:42:31GodEater_but differences do exist
16:42:58GodEater_and if you're not going to get involved in that debate, I hearby withdraw your right to voice any complaints ;)
16:43:12rob_i actually get off on coming up with pleasurable interface improvements
16:43:43GodEater_so make suggestions
16:43:48kadobanrob_: i'm sure rockbox could use you then :) suggestions are generally welcomed
16:43:51rob_i havent used rockbox enough yet
16:43:59GodEater_like any people, we fear change - but it's not impossible to get us to :)
16:44:12rob_maybe in a few weeks, i'll keep a list of things that get to me
16:44:20GodEater_good idea
16:44:32GodEater_ideally, with a "this is the way I'd do it better" suggestion to go with them
16:44:36rob_i'll give it to my OCD mate and see if his head explodes
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16:44:48GodEater_generally people saying "I don't like X", and not having a way to improve it are not greeted warmly
16:45:00rob_of course :)
16:45:20GodEater_well, we're not mean to them either
16:45:23GodEater_but nothing will change ;)
16:45:59 Quit linuxstb (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
16:46:27*GodEater_ tries to shuffle the pitchforks and torches into a dark corner of the channel
16:47:06rob_lol :>
16:47:25GodEater_nothing to see here....
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16:48:27amiconnUnhelpful: Do you mean "unique" in the sense of "stays the same as long as the file/dir exists" or in the sense of "doesn't clash with the id of another file/dir at any given time"?
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16:49:19*GodEater_ presumes amiconn is talking MTP
16:50:37jaykaya stupid question concerning the manual: should i use "headphone socket" or "headhone jack"?
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16:50:53jaykayi guess there is no difference
16:51:20jaykay(in ethe meaning of them)
16:51:37kadobanjaykay: isn't the socket the female bit and the jack the male bit? (maybe i'm wrong)
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16:52:06rob_Settings menu gives me a headache
16:52:12jaykayno, both are used for the description of the players...
16:53:07rob_why is there RockBox -> 'General Settings' -> System and RockBox -> System and RockBox -> Manage Settings
16:53:20rob_and how am i supposed to guess where to find which settings?!
16:53:42kadobanrob_: Manage Settings is for like saving and loading the files if you want to backup/restore, things like that
16:53:51rob_i actually gave up looking for the scroll wheel settings because i never knew which menu i was under or how many levels i was into the menu system
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16:55:00kadobanGeneral Settings->Display->Scrolling ?
16:55:30rob_why is it under 'Display'? surely its a hardware setting?
16:55:59*kadoban doesn't know :)
16:56:01rob_i mean for the scroll wheel thing
16:56:07rob_not the scrolling text
16:56:17rob_can i even change the sensitivity of it?
16:56:40jaykaywith the path kadoban wrote, yes
16:56:53GodEater_rob_: I don't think you can no
16:56:58jaykayit is a setting of display because it is used in lists...
16:57:16jaykayyou can change the scroll speed in lists
16:57:55rob_lol ok
16:58:03GodEater_you can't change the sensitivity of the wheel though
16:58:07GodEater_not without recompiling
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16:58:19GodEater_we spent a few months getting the current setting "right"
16:58:26GodEater_and then removed the options for it
16:58:32GodEater_since most people didn't understand them
16:58:47rob_why am i not surprised ;)
16:58:55rob_i dont understand what these options do
16:59:03GodEater_which ones ?
16:59:11GodEater_and doesn't the manual explain ?
17:00:37jaykayany complaints about only using headphone jack?
17:01:07 Quit Zagor ("Client exiting")
17:02:12jaykayok :)
17:03:51rob_its difficult to accurately move the selection bar by one
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17:17:00MastrojaniI download VMware player and Debian
17:17:10Mastrojanii run this, all look ok
17:17:27Mastrojanibut i dont know how i compile RB to sansa fuze
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17:19:16MaEstroi look this
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17:19:37MaEstrobut i not understand that, my english is bad
17:19:38jaykayits easy. i understood it too :)
17:19:53MaEstroall working good
17:19:55jaykayi guess you dont speak german?
17:20:02MaEstroi from poland :)
17:20:29MaEstromy VMware player an debian working good, but i dont know how compile that :D
17:24:09kadobanMaEstro: are you getting an error? it's difficult to know what to say other than read the documentation
17:24:32jaykayim explaining it in a private chat
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17:40:29rob_i think the most obvious flaw is not being able to jump between the track browser and the now-playing screen
17:44:44jaykayrob-: how about pressing play?
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17:45:17rob_that doesnt jump directly into the directory thats currently being played
17:46:49gevaertsrob_: have you tried pressing select?
17:47:21rob_gevaerts: again, same thing
17:47:34gevaertssame thing as what?
17:49:31gibbon_good evening everybody
17:49:46gibbon_(or whichever time it is where you are...)
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17:52:25gibbon_is there anything more i should know, if i want to attach a 32GB to my iPod mini than the things mentioned in FS #8644?
17:52:32oborob_: it does it you have the follow playlist option turned on
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18:04:28pixelmarob_: also, are you using the database or the file browser to chose your music?
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18:17:33jaykayis there any reason for writing Optical Line-In, Line-In and Internet capitalized?
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18:18:18kadobanInternet is a proper noun, is it not? the others, i don't know
18:19:56jaykayi looked it up (i know i should have done before asking), it can be written in both ways
18:20:11jaykayhow about line in and optical line in? i dont know where to look
18:20:29jaykaysorry, internet can be written in both ways
18:21:40kadobanjaykay: not sure. by the way, are you doing some kind of epic manual fixup? is there an FS entry?
18:22:03jaykayepic indeed.
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18:42:56MaEstrohello i have a problem
18:43:17MaEstroi compile a sansa fuze rockbox with VMware and debian
18:43:32MaEstroi dont have a access for \\debian
18:43:45MaEstroits error
18:44:09MaEstro"windows don't find \\debian ble ble ble..."
18:44:31*gevaerts didn't know that windows said "ble ble ble" in error messages
18:45:10agaffneywhat it does say is usually about as intelligible
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18:45:46MaEstroi make a .zip file but i dont have a access
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18:51:13MaEstromaybe anybody help me, please
18:51:23mrkikoStop using windows...
18:52:02MaEstrowow, nice :D
18:52:05gevaertsMaEstro: a lot of people here don't use vmware, so you'll need to wait until someone who can help actually reads the question
18:52:16gevaertsmrkiko: that's not really needed here...
18:52:34mcuelenaereMaEstro: have you checked the VMWare Rockbox wiki page?
18:52:42mrkikoMaEstro: ok... I'll now will try to stop my humour...
18:53:16mrkikoMaEstro: check that in debian the package "samba" is installed. If not, please install it...
18:53:53jaykayMaEstro: if you used the cmware image, it is installed
18:55:07MaEstrocmware image?
18:55:20MaEstrowhat is it?
18:55:30gevaertsMaEstro: "c" is next to "v" on jaykay's keyboard
18:55:42MaEstroi used this 2GB pack for rockbox site
18:55:53jaykayyeah thats right, i meant vmware
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18:58:10MaEstroBridget connection not work
18:58:15MaEstrovmware give a error
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19:01:26amiconnMaEstro: Bridged won't work if you don't configure the network interface within the vm so that it matches your network. You want either NAT or host-only
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19:05:29MaEstroi dont have a idea for \\debian
19:05:44scorche<amiconn> MaEstro: Bridged won't work if you don't configure the network interface within the vm so that it matches your network. You want either NAT or host-only
19:06:08MaEstroNAT or host only dont work
19:06:30MaEstroi write to windows explorer \\debian and windows give a error
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19:17:01bertrikhow would a player be able to automatically recalibrate its battery discharge curve?
19:17:19bertrikI noticed this on MrSomeonesTodoList
19:18:20bertrikI have serious doubt about whether automatic recalibration is possible at all with most targets and I couldn't find anything about it in the IRC logs of the past weeks
19:21:02jaykayi would say doing some benches and updating the curves is better...
19:21:46jaykayalso self-recalibration is not worth the effort+wasted power
19:22:30LloreanThe idea is to do it so that the curve stays up to date as a battery gets older, I think.
19:22:38LloreanBasically, allow someone's player to keep their own personal curve up to date.
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19:23:27bertrikbut as far as I understand a normal bench is done with a more or less constant current or power drain under controlled circumstances
19:24:13bertrikwith normal use, I think you can't make a reliable graph because you don't know how much current is consumed at all times
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19:43:14amiconnbertrik: Automatic recalibration is an idea I want to see implemented (for targets where it makes sense). I do think that it is possible
19:43:52saratogaself calibration should be possible by recording how long it takes to get between percentiles, and adjusting the curve until the times are equal
19:44:37amiconnWe don't know the exact current at all times, but we're estimation current, and of course automatic recalibration wouldn't change everything in a single discharge cycle - it would average
19:46:43bertrikok, I thought the MrSomeone to do list was a limited list of things already discussed (which doesn't seem to be the case) and with at least some kind of theory of operation. I was afraid the list was turning into some kind of private request tracker.
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19:47:36amiconnMy recorder starts warning me about low bat when there are still several hours of runtime left
19:47:48bertrikFor it to work at all, the target has to have some kind of way of estimating the power drain I think.
19:48:19amiconnNiMH is especially difficult: Voltage is falling slowly during discharge, and it's also temperature and brand/model dependent
19:49:10amiconnbertrik: Rockbox knows the boost status, whether the disk is spinning or not, whether the backlight is enabled, which brightness it is at etc
19:49:57amiconnThat will make a sufficiently precise estimation.
19:50:36amiconnThe curve doesn't need to be exact, but right now it's almost unusable on some targets (also depending on the age of the battery etc)
19:54:00amiconnThe current current estimation function ignores a lot of this data, btw
19:54:05*kugel wonders if semi-automatic would work too, as in read-in the current battery-bench.txt
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19:55:01saratogawe've discussed this before, but it was probably years ago
19:55:17bertrikkugel, that would indeed be a simple a quick way to get a reasonable curve
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19:58:52*amiconn wonders whether he should move the screendump function to firmware/
19:59:18amiconnI've split it from misc.c, and it is (only!) called from firmware/ on target
19:59:30amiconnCalling apps/ stuff from firmware is nasty
19:59:33Bagdersounds reasonable then
19:59:59*amiconn also added remote screendump
20:00:21amiconnThe sim calls it from firmware/ too (from the backlight thread)
20:00:41*amiconn also needs a solution for a sim bug introduced by jhMikeS more than a year ago
20:01:10amiconnSims for targets without backlight (i.e. Ondios) have non-working screendump, due to the backlight thread being absent
20:03:18 Quit guest001 ()
20:03:30kugelamiconn: isn't moving the stuff that calls screendump to apps/ considerable too?
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20:04:45amiconnkugel: The usb thread (target) resp backlight thread (sims)? Certainly not...
20:04:58 Quit BigBambi (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
20:05:04kugelnot the whole threads...
20:05:23amiconnThe theards *are* what calls the function(s)
20:06:02kugelthe threads are more than the calls though, and I'd think the actual call could be moved out
20:06:46kugeldon't know, I didn't look at the code
20:06:51kugelthat's why I asked
20:07:14saratogahasn't the watermark rewrok in the mysomeone list already done?
20:07:27kugelsaratoga: yes, I corrected it today
20:07:30saratogaah ok
20:07:38kugel"mysomeone list"? :=
20:07:44amiconnScreendump is called from firmware/ code, and only uses firmware/ code itself. So I think it's better to have it there as well
20:07:49bertrikis there any dev with a sansa c200v2?
20:08:11kugelsaratoga: I actually cut&pasted the wrong todo when I added the achievement at the end of the page
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20:08:35saratogabertrik: no, just one guy who tested some code i think
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20:09:14kugela good deal of buttons have been found already (not all though), but it needs a working lcd driver
20:09:35saratogaanyone know when funman gets back
20:10:13bertrikkugel, ah a working lcd driver would help testing/hacking a lot indeed :)
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20:10:53bertriksaratoga, he was here 2 days and 13 hours ago, but only briefly IIRC
20:11:13kugelI'd volunteer to look at the OF, but not if there's noone that wants to actively test and do the other work
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20:21:06saratogai'm not sure what good worrying about the c200v2 is now when we don't have properly working SD drivers for AMS targets yet
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20:23:51bertrikwell some c200v2 stuff apparently doesn't work but could be made to work and it would be useful...
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20:47:23bertriksaratoga, I think funman was looking into some of the vendor-specific commands for the sd interface, commands that are possibly related to bank switching
20:47:33*amiconn was wrong regarding the function calls from within screendump
20:48:01bertrikmy ams sansa is a 1 GB clip so I can't really experiment with it
20:48:02amiconnIt uses create_numbered_filename() resp. create_datetime_filename() which reside in msic.c :(
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20:58:46saratogabertrik: beyond bank switching, we also have corruption problems
21:01:14*amiconn ponders moving these two functions as well
21:01:21amiconnfirmware/general.c might be suitable
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21:05:40jaykayis it necessary to describe exactly the positions of the four buttons "surrounding" a scrollwheel? (in the manual)
21:06:13BigBambijaykay: yes, for blind people
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21:06:28jaykayi guessed that already...
21:06:46BigBambithen why ask?
21:06:49jaykayit becomes a unpretty sentence on some targets
21:06:56jaykaybecause it was a guessing
21:07:00LloreanI'd say "being necessary" trumps "unpretty"
21:07:02bertriksaratoga, I've seen any sd corruption on my sansa clip 1GB, but I haven't really looked for it either
21:07:16jaykayllorean: true
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21:07:21gevaertsjaykay: you can always rewrite it to look better :)
21:07:23BigBambiLlorean: Or any non-made up word too :)
21:07:49saratogabertrik: i know the fuze gets it, so i assume the clip does too
21:07:58jaykaygevaerts: i need to rewrite some parts as the buttons are not exatly described...
21:10:07saratogabertrik: i haven't looked, but does the test disk plugin check that reads and writes aren't corrupted?
21:10:09fmlamiconn: FYI: the old background (no backlight) color of the H120 sim was 0x5a915a, the new value is 0x7e917e. How did you come to this value (not that it's bad)?
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21:12:47amiconnfml: plain mistake. I'll recheck the colours soon
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21:15:09fmlkugel: seen the comment about FS #9883?
21:15:55kugelfml: yes, but I've stated my opinion
21:16:27kugeland lamp is about the only plugin were your reasoning makes sense (to me at least), so that should rather use its own way
21:17:27kugelbacklight is very battery intensive, and the people that realized it turn it always of (if possible) and don't want to have it on anywhere. Those who didn't realize probably don't have it at off anyway
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21:19:59Lloreankugel: Then a plugin shouldn't use "force backlight" unless a backlight is truly necessary.
21:20:27LloreanIf it doesn't force, it shouldn't be named "force"
21:20:37kugelthat's true too
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21:21:51kugelI didn't invent/introduce it though, but I tend to claim that really forcing backlight on is unnecessary for 99% of the plugins
21:22:05kugelif the screen is readable without backlight, that is
21:22:07LloreanHow many use it?
21:22:42*kugel hands Llorean "grep force_backlight plugins/*" ;)
21:22:55LloreanI don't have a copy of the source on this computer.
21:23:23LloreanAnd I also assumed that if you're saying "we shouldn't change these plugins' behaviour" you'd *at least* know which plugins you're talking about.
21:23:35fmlLlorean, kugel: my point is that a function should do what it claims to do.
21:23:46Lloreanfml: I agree with that.
21:24:30kugelthat's why I said I'm not sure if it's a bug
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21:25:08kugelI'd rather rename this, so it's clearer that it's not having an effect if backlight is set to off entirely, and have lamp use its own way
21:25:10Lloreankugel: So which plugins will be broken by changing it?
21:25:22LloreanWhat's the point in suggesting we rename it if you don't even know which plugins use it yet...
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21:27:56kugel33 plugins appear to use it
21:27:58jaykaybigbambi: is "The main controls on the \dap{} are a slightly indented wheel with a flat round button in the center." much better for a blind user or is "scroll wheel" clear enough since there aren't so many wheels on a dap?
21:28:18BigBambijaykay: centre
21:28:22low_lightQball: you around?
21:28:36*linuxstb slaps gevaerts with the Oxford English Dictionary
21:28:42 Join merbanan [0] (n=banan@
21:28:43jaykaybigbambi: copied from the manual, i didn't write this....
21:28:44BigBambijaykay: The manual uses British English
21:28:48 Join SFuze [0] (n=57cddbd5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
21:29:05BigBambijaykay: Then it needs fixing - where is it?
21:29:10 Join casainho [0] (n=chatzill@
21:29:11gevaertslinuxstb: why? For pointing it out?
21:29:19 Join YoShimitZu [0] (n=57cddbd5@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
21:29:20casainhohello :-)
21:29:25jaykayi do it in my patch... but 3.1.1.
21:29:26linuxstbgevaerts: My apologies, I only half-read the logs...
21:29:38jaykayi asked whether this is helpful for a blind user....
21:29:40YoShimitZui compile a sansa fuze rockbox and load the bootloader
21:30:05YoShimitZuit is possible that I damaged my player
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21:30:29pixelmajaykay: by the way - please don't change too much (especially if it's in different places and not really related) in one patch. That makes it harder to commit
21:30:41casainhoI have Rockbox Player code bad because of somtehing about glue_7 section on linker script. I have a vecotrs section that should have different VMA from the LMA address values however it stays with the same value :-(
21:30:43YoShimitZui have a problem, load rockbox on fuze and not load
21:30:49BigBambiOn an installation note, I'd like to add a note for Mac users in the manual install section about how silly the standard mac unzipping tool is - but what is the future of the manual install section?
21:30:50kugelfml: well, maybe other people consider it more as a bug, I'm undecided
21:30:50Qballlow_light: am now
21:30:51BigBambiIs it worth it?
21:30:55casainhocan someone please help me with glue_7?
21:31:12 Quit _lifeless (Remote closed the connection)
21:31:18casainhomaybe a little explain about glue_7?
21:31:24Lloreankugel: The whole point of having plugins be able to control the backlight was so that they could choose to ignore the setting.
21:31:29 Join _lifeless [0] (n=lifeless@
21:31:29 Quit Uthark (Client Quit)
21:31:32LloreanIt's somewhat pointless if they only *sometimes* ignore the setting.
21:31:56low_lightQball: I have a patch to test the touchpad...want to try
21:32:27linuxstbjaykay: BTW, did you see my answer yesterday to your question about "headphone jack" or "headphone socket" ?
21:32:42jaykaylinuxstb: no... sorry
21:33:10fmlLlorean: yes, all animal are equal, but some are more equal :-) You use mpegplayer, right? How would you expect the plaer to operate if your BL setting were OFF? Would you expect the player to have BL or not?
21:33:17low_lightQball: it adds a debug menu (System > Debug > Debug touchpad) with some options,
21:33:17kugelLlorean: maybe there could be _force_on and _force_on_unless_off (something like that), the latter one is more appropriate for most plugins imo
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21:33:43Lloreanfml: I already said I agree, "force_" should always force it on.
21:33:50 Quit SFuze ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)")
21:33:57BigBambijaykay: As to your original question, I don't really know I'm afraid, as I'm not blind so don't know what would be best
21:33:59pixelmaBigBambi: I always wanted to clean the install section up (unify and reorder) but not sure when I'll get around to actually do it :\
21:34:12Lloreankugel: Other than the mono players, there are two players where "off" means it's still usable in plugins as far as I know.
21:34:28Lloreankugel: Maybe you could just do a cleanup on those players where it makes sense to honor their settings.
21:34:32fmlLlorean: I try to approach the problem from the other side, i.e. functional or behavioural one. What would you expect? Forget about the function name.
21:34:33LloreanSince it seems so important to you.
21:34:36BigBambipixelma: Right!
21:34:38Qballlow_light: against what is that patch?
21:34:39 Join oeoeo [0] (n=peter@
21:34:43BigBambipixelma: I'm starting now!
21:34:49Lloreanfml: Mpegplayer must always have the light on. There's no sense entering it if you can't see it.
21:34:57low_lightQball: near current svn ;)
21:34:57kugelfml: it's about targets where the screen is readable without backlight. Why should mpegplayer not operate on that without backlight?
21:35:05Qballdoes not apply for me
21:35:08jaykaylinuxstb: really...? headphone socket?
21:35:09Lloreankugel: On those mpegplayer isn't visible without the backlight.
21:35:37Lloreankugel: The screen is only readable in moderate-to-high contrast situations. Moving images like mpegplayer don't really qualify in the vast majority of cases.
21:35:44low_lightQball: what fails
21:35:51 Quit nibbler_ (Remote closed the connection)
21:35:53pixelmaLlorean: the greyscale ones and e.g. the m200 could work without but I don't think anyone would ever want it
21:36:10kugelLlorean: that's probably why the mpegplayer has his entirely own backlight framework anyway
21:36:23BigBambipixelma: What do you think to relegating manual installation to an Appendix, or a link to the wiki?
21:36:34Lloreankugel: Which could probably be removed if "force" did what it was intended to instead of being broken
21:36:41linuxstbjaykay: Yes, we have "plugs" and "sockets" (or at least I do...)
21:37:11linuxstbjaykay: A "jack" is something you use to lift a car up...
21:37:12kugelLlorean: why should it be removed? It allows you to run mpegplayer with max brightness without the need to change the global settings everytime you watch a video
21:37:12oeoeois it expected for rockbox to work on 6th gen ipods?
21:37:18BigBambijaykay: A jack, if anything, is the plug to me
21:37:24Qballpatching file firmware/drivers/synaptics-mep.c
21:37:26QballHunk #4 FAILED at 453.
21:37:26Qball1 out of 4 hunks FAILED −− saving rejects to file firmware/drivers/synaptics-mep.c.rej
21:37:33BigBambiBut in the UK, it is plugs and sockets as linuxstb says
21:37:39Bagderoeoeo: no
21:37:48fmlBTW: shouldn't the backlight=OFF setting be disabled for players with black screens without backlight?
21:38:23pixelmaBigBambi: not sure, maybe not yet
21:38:26 Quit YoShimitZu ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)")
21:38:31Lloreankugel: Well maybe plugins should just generally have their own backlight controls. Then people can set for themselves which plugins are always on, and which ones are readable enough without it.
21:38:42LloreanBut the solution is to fix the plugins.
21:38:57jaykaylinuxstb, bigbambi: jack was used in the manual... and my (oxford) dictionary says "connection betweens two pieces of electronical equipment", so it would be right
21:39:01LloreanMeanwhile "force" should be honored as "forcing" so that existing plugins can force the backlight on when it's necessary for their use (mpegplayer, lamp primarily)
21:39:10BigBambipixelma: Well I think I'll seperate it all out anyway, so it can be in the future, plus to give automatic more promenence now
21:39:13jaykayit also doesnt say its american english
21:39:24BigBambijaykay: it isn't, it just isn't clear
21:39:27Qballlow_light: hmm let me try again on clean checkout
21:39:39jaykaybigbambi:ok ill use socket....
21:39:41bertrikQball, it may help to go back to the svn version that the patch was made for, apply the patch (which should go in cleanly), then update back to current svn
21:39:53Qballwhat version was it made for
21:39:58kugelLlorean: and all the other plugins should only keep it on if backlight is not entirely set to off
21:40:18linuxstbjaykay: Is "socket" meaningless to you? (and what's your native language?)
21:40:32jaykaybigbambi: also line-in socket?
21:40:43jaykaylinuxstb: no, german
21:40:57Lloreankugel: That sentence doesn't make sense. Force would ignore "off"
21:41:04 Quit oeoeo ("Lost terminal")
21:41:09bertrikQball, you should be able to find the version by looking at the text of the patch itself
21:41:11pixelmaBigBambi: unfortunately there is some info which is important on some targets only in the "manual installation" section and not very present in the Rockbox Utility (e.g. having to plug the charger to finish bootloader installation on the Iaudios, stuff like that)
21:41:17kugelhence the _force_on_unless_off thing I proposed
21:41:24Lloreankugel: A true force is necessary. So if you renamed "force" to something else, you'd just have to replace it anyway. So why not just create the something else.
21:41:25BigBambipixelma: I plan to move that
21:41:35low_lightQball: I'm at v19954, but I don't think that file has been changed recently
21:41:42BigBambipixelma: So that automatic is complete
21:41:57kugelLlorean: I already suggested that....
21:41:57Lloreankugel: "Instead of "force_on_unless_off" maybe something like "ignore_backlight_timeout" so it stays on, unless set to off.
21:42:09Qballugh longtime since I used svn
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21:42:32pixelmaBigBambi: you force me to get out my old notes... ;)
21:42:42BigBambipixelma: good :)
21:42:50 Join eusse [0] (n=eusse@
21:42:57kugelfml: I hope you got some ideas now :)
21:43:23Lloreankugel: And yes, you already suggested it, but you then focused on renaming again. fml's fix is valid, as it fixes what is a problem. Adding the other thing in would just be a further improvement.
21:43:31 Join akur [0] (
21:43:31Lloreanlamp needs a way to always work, otherwise it's broken.
21:43:35low_lightQball: synaptics-mep.c was last changed in v19480
21:43:44 Part akur
21:43:48fmlLlorean, kugel: I think we should ask the original creator of the function (petur if I'm not mistaken) whether he did it intentionally. Since the bug is not an obvious one. My assumption is that if he did it intentionally he'd put in a comment (knowing how careful petur is about developers). Hance I think that it was just an oversight.
21:43:51QballI did an svn revert -R .
21:43:53Qballbefore applying
21:44:09 Join qurvel [0] (
21:44:31Qballhow do I checkout older revision?
21:44:36*petur scrolls up
21:44:55eusseHi everybody, does anybody know under which license was Rockbox released? GPL, BSD, CDDL....
21:44:58kugelQball: svn up -rXXXX
21:45:09kadobaneusse: GPL
21:45:20domonoky1eusse: GPL v2 or later
21:45:29jaykaybigbambi: another question... Optical Line-In, optical Line-In or optical line-in... or something else :)
21:45:57Lloreanpetur: Is "force backlight on" supposed to *always* force it on, or force it on unless the backlight is specifically set to "off" in the normal setting?
21:46:04eusseDo you have any link where I can read more about licensing and legal stuff?
21:46:23low_lightQball: does patch like need a line return at the end diff? it wasn't in my paste.
21:46:27peturstill missing the context
21:46:30BigBambijaykay: optical line-in
21:46:31Lloreaneusse: Did you have a specific question?
21:46:40linuxstbeusse: Download the source code - everything is in there - either the source code headers, or the files in the "docs" directory.
21:46:41kugelpetur: backlight_force_on() for plugins
21:46:44Qballstill fails
21:46:46jaykaybigbambi: ok, thanks
21:46:47Qballlet me see on what
21:46:55Lloreanpetur: "LAMP" uses the force backlight enable function, but right now if you have backlight set to "off" it's black, otherwise any other backlight timeout value and it works.
21:46:57BigBambieusse: If it just about licencing in general, google is a good start
21:46:58kugelcurrently it doesn't kick the backlight on if you disabled it in the global setting
21:47:00jaykayeusse: a manual, at the end of it
21:47:35peturforce should probably always force it on
21:47:47pixelmaLlorean: same happens with the buttonlight (maybe it was already mentioned, didn't follow your discussion closely)
21:47:47Qballno, keeps failing..
21:47:53Qballcan't you just upload the patch
21:47:59*Qball HATES pastebins for patches
21:48:22Qballlow_light: it gives me offsets at every part.
21:48:22UnhelpfulQball: pastie and work just fine for them, they have raw downloads :P
21:48:24kugelno matter what it's supposed to do (the name indicates that it should even ignore backlight off, I agree), most plugins should not change the current behavior, and thus be fixed
21:48:34Qballthere is no raw download on that page
21:48:46eusseok, I will check the SVN repository
21:48:54eussethanks to everybody
21:48:58jaykaybtw the manual says GNU Free Documentation License Version 1.2... is that right?
21:49:13Lloreankugel: That's an incorrect statement.
21:49:26kadobanjaykay: that's the license for the manual, look lower on the page, i believe it has a copy of the GPL
21:49:27Lloreankugel: Most plugins on the current majority of targets *should* force it on if they need it.
21:49:32low_lightQball: here's it is on pastbin:
21:49:51kugelI don't see why
21:49:58peturkugel: this was introduced for plugins wher having the backlight always on makes sense
21:50:18Lloreankugel: What's the point of not turning it on if the plugin can't be used or exited without being able to see the screen?
21:50:28jaykaykadoban: you were right, thanks
21:50:30kugelif you have backlight off, you'll want to save energy in plugins too (if the backlight isn't entirely necessary for the plugin to work)
21:50:30Qballlow_light: thanks that works
21:50:45Lloreankugel: On most color targets the backlight is 100% necessary for all plugins.
21:50:58peturI agree that this should only be for targets that need backlight
21:51:13peturand lamp always needs it ;)
21:51:15 Quit perrikwp (" ajax IRC Client")
21:51:17Qballlow_light: do you have the display patch too? I am afraid I reverted that
21:51:24kugelLlorean: Again, it's about targets where the screen is _readable_ without backlight
21:51:50kugelif someone has backlight off on a target where the screen isn't readable without backlight, he doesn't want to run plugins
21:52:01Lloreankugel: So fix the specific plugins ifdeffed for those targets.
21:52:10Lloreankugel: You're more than welcome to go through the whole plugin list and determine which ones are usable on which targets.
21:52:11kugelthere's no sense in that anyway, unless you're blind and don't benefit from backlight
21:52:31LloreanRight now though it's better to err in favour of "can't be used" rather than saying "I hope it can be used, but hey, they can guess where the exit button is, right?"
21:52:37kugel#ifdef the targets?
21:52:40kugelwhy that?
21:52:50LloreanIt needs to be target specific...
21:52:56kugelit doesn't
21:52:59LloreanYes, it does.
21:53:11LloreanThere are plenty of targets where the screen is unusable without a backlight.
21:53:21peturkugel: just watch out what you change, this hase been thought of before, don't change the whole thing like that
21:53:29kugelignoring timeout is totally fine. You're not going to reach the plugin without backlight OR don't benifit from backlight at all, if you can't read the screen
21:53:29LloreanBut at the same time, people may use voice most of the time because they keep the player in a bag and use a remote.
21:53:33amiconnfirmware/general.c isn't as general as one might think :/ It's (currently) swcodec specific
21:53:41Lloreankugel: "Voice" is NOT just for blind users. There are screenless remotes.
21:53:42Qballlow_light: please :(
21:53:51 Part eusse
21:53:55Lloreankugel: Stop making assumptions like "they cannot get to the plugin without the backlight on"
21:54:02*amiconn is undecided whether moving the filename functions is a good idea
21:54:06 Join eusse [0] (n=eusse@
21:54:09LloreanYou need to fix it properly, not assume away the edge cases.
21:54:11kugel"OR don't benifit from backlight"
21:54:14 Part eusse
21:54:20Lloreankugel: Plugins can't be used without voice.
21:54:28LloreanSO you can navigate to them blindly, but need the light to use them.
21:54:32amiconnBut if it's not, screendump can't be moved either, which means the nastiness in usb.c and backlight.c will stay as well
21:54:37LloreanSo they DO benefit from backlight, but don't require it to be on to get there.
21:54:40kugelI won't fix anything, I don't intend to touch that code, I'm just stating my opinion
21:55:01*petur goes looking for a rubber chicken
21:55:03Lloreankugel: Well, your opinion is overlooking several use cases.
21:55:06low_lightQball: and remember to change LCD_WIDTH and LCD_HEIGHT in the config to 220x176
21:55:11mcuelenaeresaratoga: regarding the Cowon D2 post: yes I know, but I'm more hesitant when deleting posts of other people's threads
21:56:13kugelLlorean: maybe, that's one of the reasons for having a discussion here, to reveal edge cases
21:56:39 Part Zambezi
21:57:07taylor__anyone know if jump to register is just a windows technique for hacking?
21:57:32 Quit merbanan (Remote closed the connection)
21:57:32Lloreankugel: Simply put: You may not choose to use the backlight in the UI, but still need it in plugins, so it needs to be fixed on a case by case basis for target and plugin by someone who can actually look at the screen.
21:57:47LloreanUntil then, "better safe than sorry" means it should turn it on if there's uncertainty, rather than leaving it off if there's uncertainty.
21:58:07kugeland so I suggested to have the force ignoring off too for plugins were it's necessary
21:58:15BigBambipixelma: Any luck digging out notes? Just to make sure we are going in the ame direction :)
22:00:34 Quit itcheg (" ajax IRC Client")
22:01:37fmlkugel: I could probably agree with you if the backlight on/off were a separate setting and the backlight timeout a separate one. Then the func would just overwrite the timeout but not the ON/OFF setting. But this is one setting, and the purpose of the func is solely to ignore it.
22:02:27kugelfml: or, have backlight_force_on() and backlight_ignore_timeout() as suggested several times.
22:02:33Qballlow_light: ?
22:02:38Qballlow_light: what info to give you
22:03:13kugeli.e. rename the current function, and make a new which ignores everything (or fix the current one, and make a new which ignores the timeout only, choose what you like)
22:03:16low_lightQball: you in the debug touchpad screen?
22:03:25Qballyeah it crashed gimme a sec :D
22:03:26fmlkugel: yes, but plugins use "force on", hence the authors are aware of what they're at.
22:03:45kugelI still think that most plugins don't necessarily need backlight, even if some more than lamp only need it due to edge cases
22:03:58LloreanMost of the current uses of "force on" are correct. One would have to go through with actual hardware and determine on a case-by-case where "ignore timeout" is actually useful.
22:03:58Qballlow_light: ok
22:04:01Qballlow_light: am there
22:04:11Lloreankugel: And I've told you several times now, you're absolutely WRONG about that.
22:04:14LloreanIt's not an issue of opinion.
22:04:50LloreanThe only time you don't need a backlight to use a plugin is if you're one of the mono targets, or one of a very, very small selection of color targets.
22:05:01 Part qurvel
22:05:04low_lightQball: Select "View raw packets" then press and hold the touchpad buttons
22:05:05LloreanEvery other target whether the backlight is used in the UI or not, you will need a backlight to see the plugin and exit it.
22:05:35Qballlow_light: ok.
22:05:42low_lightQball: hopefully they all respond in some way
22:05:54kugelwhat about greyscale?
22:06:02LloreanThose are the 'mono targets'
22:06:35LloreanYou have the M5, M3, H100, M:Robe and Archoses
22:07:01Qballhmmm yeah somewhat.
22:07:29Qballwhen using the slider I see the 2nd block go up and down depending if I go up or down
22:08:36Qballwhen I press prev/next button I often see packet 2 appear
22:08:37low_lightwhat's the first byte in the packet?
22:08:44Lloreankugel: And old iPods, sorry.
22:09:00Qballlow_light: from left to right or right to left?
22:09:04Lloreankugel: Mono targets can unilaterally be given the "ignore timeout" safely
22:09:12LloreanBut as I've said, color targets need a case-by-case basis.
22:09:16low_light2 packets will appear for some, that's normal
22:09:25kugelfml: ok, so ignore what I said. Llorean convinced me that it's a bug. We probably don't want ignore_timeout (as it would be hardware specific anyway)
22:09:35low_lightQball: left to right
22:09:46Lloreanignore_timeout would be useful, but would require a lot of note taking first.
22:10:14Qballlow_light: 0B for top buttons and slider.. 19 for menu < > and menu
22:10:24LloreanIt needs to be force_on until someone can actually *try* it and say if it's at least readable enough to see how to exit (preferably in indoor light, rather than direct daylight)
22:10:24 Quit Rondom (Nick collision from services.)
22:10:40 Join Rondom [0] (
22:10:40BigBambiCan the M5 dual boot? (I don't think so)
22:11:10LloreanBigBambi: Non of the Cowon supported players can.
22:11:21BigBambiLlorean: Thanks, didn't think so
22:11:36fmlWhat about what I said earlier (disabling backlight=OFF on players where the screen is not readable without backlight, e.g. sansa e200)? This is of course a separate topic, but still related.
22:11:41amiconnLlorean: #if !defined(HAVE_LCD_COLOR) || defined(HAVE_TRANSFLECTIVE_LCD)
22:11:59 Quit miepchen^schlaf ()
22:12:01Lloreanamiconn: Basically, yes. But some are unusable even transflective (mpegplayer on Nano, for example)
22:12:05amiconnOh, not quite, the Clip is also unreadable without "backlight"
22:12:09LloreanBut you can quit at least.
22:12:24 Join nibbler_ [0] (
22:12:26LloreanThe Clip is a rather special case, yes.
22:12:50Lloreanfml: It shouldn't be disabled. Voice exists and blind people don't want backlight (or people who operate in their pocket)
22:12:59kugelisn't m:robe similar in this regard?
22:13:10kugelm:robe 100
22:13:13amiconnImo backlight_force_on() should force it on, on all targets. The only other option would be to handle each plugin individually - but those functions were made to avoid that...
22:13:20Lloreanno, M:robe is just a normal LCD with a red backlight.
22:13:32Lloreanamiconn: That's basically what we agree on right now.
22:13:48 Quit petur ("bleargh")
22:13:52kugelisn't it mono? but it's readable without backlight?
22:14:02amiconnmpegplayer basically needs backlight on all targets it supports
22:14:05low_lightQball: the ones with 19 are "buttons" on the touchpad. Can you give me the full first packet (there are probably two)
22:14:18fmlLlorean: ok. I just imagined a user selecting this setting and getting into a "black hole" :-)
22:14:30low_lightQball: the packet while pressed
22:14:33Qballeeuh actually no.
22:14:43Qballeeuh wait gimme a sec
22:15:02low_lightbtw the power button is exit
22:15:55Lloreankugel: I listed the m:robe in my "mono/gray and readable"
22:16:11LloreanThe Clip is unique as unreadable because it's not actually backlit.
22:16:19 Quit XavierGr (Nick collision from services.)
22:16:28Qballthe 0B seems to vary a bit
22:16:29 Join XavierGr [0] (n=xavier@rockbox/staff/XavierGr)
22:16:48kugeloh, I didn't get that the ones you named are readable too
22:17:02fmlLlorean: clip isn't mono!
22:17:06Lloreanfml: It's 1bpp
22:17:09Qballaah it has 2 sliders! one horizontal one vertical
22:17:11Qballthat is pretty neat
22:17:17low_lightQball: 0B ones are "absolute" packets they report position
22:17:25low_lightQball: exactly
22:17:46fmlLlorean: but it has two colors! (just kidding)
22:18:33BigBambiDoes Mac OSX give any funny names to mount points? As in, where for linux we say "On Linux you need to know the
22:18:35Qballlow_light: bit slow, tired.. did a release of my program today and hospital visit
22:19:00BigBambimount point of your player", can I add OSX to that, or does it call them something odd?
22:19:03jaykayanother question for the epic manual fixup: is there a difference between optical line-in and line-in? if no, which should i use?
22:19:16BigBambijaykay: yes
22:19:19QballoO 2 00 missing
22:19:25BigBambijaykay: One is optical, the other is analogue
22:19:45BigBambijaykay: The H100 has one socket that does both
22:19:46jaykayok, thanks
22:20:19jaykaythe manual says only optical line-in for h-100... is that enough?
22:20:23Qballlow_light: brb..
22:21:33low_lightQball: cool!
22:21:54Lloreanjaykay: Does it mention anywhere that the optical line-in is also analog?
22:22:40Qballlow_light: hope it helps
22:22:42jaykayi dont know, at least not within the description of the "interface" of the player....
22:22:51 Quit fml ("CGI:IRC")
22:23:07 Quit Rondom (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:23:26pixelmaBigBambi: very hard to explain in a few words, as I said I wanted to reorder a bit - stuff people should know before installing (supported target, losing DRM capabilities, how to find out OF version (explained in a more checklist kind of way) etc.), then unify the installation part (only where automatic and manual differ describe Xa or Xb), then what to have to take care of afterwards
22:23:50pixelmaalso get rid of some things I don't think the Rockbox manual should explain like what a zip utility is (maybe link to some other place if people think it's needed)
22:24:04BigBambipixelma: OK
22:24:10Lloreanjaykay: In the physical description it should mention that the one hole is used both for analog line-in and for digital optical recording.
22:24:19BigBambipixelma: I'll have a bash and then people can critique on flyspray :)
22:25:10low_lightQball: for the 2 "sliders" can you tell does the first number of the last byte change depending on one you touch?
22:25:18jaykayLlorean: " can find the headphone socket, remote port, optical line-in, and optical line-out." already slightly modified by me, any suggestions?
22:25:38Qballlow_light: let look
22:26:09***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22:26:13Lloreanjaykay: As I said, it should mention that the optical is also usable for analog. Same is true for the line out.
22:26:26Qballlow_light: the last 3 change.
22:26:31Qballlast 3 bytes
22:26:32pixelmaBigBambi: I thought of putting it in a nice table and then somewhere in the forums or flyspray and ask native speakers for the actual phrasing - as this is what often demotivates me as I know I'll need a longer time and it still won't sound as good as from a native speaker
22:27:06pixelmagood idea flyspraying it
22:27:17jaykayLlorean: i know, any suggestions how to change this? "...line out, which is also analogue " is unpretty (i like this word:P)
22:27:20BigBambipixelma: At the moment I'm working on taking specific bits out of the manual section that are needed in the auto section too
22:27:36BigBambipixelma: I have no choice but to flyspray it :)
22:27:54BigBambipixelma: And then afterwards I'll have a go at the checklist type stuff
22:28:09pixelmaI forgot Oo
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22:28:30Lloreanjaykay: "you can find the headphone socket, remote port, and two ports that serve as combination optical and analog input and output respectively.
22:28:43LloreanSeems a little unclear still..
22:29:00Llorean"and two ports, one for input and one output, that support both optical and analog connections"
22:29:14Qballlow_light: any way to figure out how to enable the the lights behind buttons
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22:29:37jaykay...line-in and line out, both analog and optical?
22:29:59 Quit MethoS (Remote closed the connection)
22:30:12gevaertsjaykay: still ambiguous. That can be read as four sockets
22:31:15low_lightQball: I'm pretty sure it's build into the touchpad. So it's just a matter sending the right commands. It's on my todo list.
22:31:29Qballnot to important
22:31:34pixelmaspeaking of the players' description... some time ago the thought was discussed to label reset holes, microphones etc. in the drawings too. I started but then noticed that you could then also label headphone socket, (optical) line-in or line-out, USB connectors. I didn't know where to draw the line and it's also a kind of space problem - where to put all the labels on the drawing?
22:32:22jaykayi dont like labelling that...
22:32:28jaykaydescribing them is enough imo
22:32:37low_lightQball: can you try "Button debug" and tell me the "position" values are for various spots?
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22:32:51Qballlow_light: lets try
22:33:51Lloreanpixelma: I think for labelling, "buttons and things that don't have their own labels" is good enough.
22:34:08 Quit MethoS (Remote closed the connection)
22:34:11LloreanSince we use our own terms for buttons, and things that don't have labels may still be referenced by us (like the reset hole)
22:35:23Qballlow_light: position:: (left to right) 0 -> 4096
22:36:00Qballz seems a bit buggy
22:36:04 Quit jaykay ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.6/2009011913]")
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22:36:28low_lightz is "finger pressure"
22:37:03low_lightQball: the vertical slider?
22:37:39Qballalso 0 4095
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22:37:51Qballfor position
22:38:29Qballnot sure how to keep the 2 apart
22:38:42BigBambiOther than the US H300, do any other targets permamently loe DRM 'ability' by installing Rockbox?
22:39:07Qball0 - 4095 is bottom to up
22:39:12pixelmaLlorean (and jaykay) thanks for the opinions
22:39:15n1sBigBambi: dont' think so
22:39:21low_lightQball: what's z if you press normally on the slider?
22:39:32Qball+- 40-50
22:39:43LloreanBigBambi: There has been some talk about temporary loss of DRM on Rhapsody players. I've seen two people report it, no word if reverting recovers it, and no real confirmation as to whether it's really us that causes it.
22:39:50Qball80-100 horizontal
22:39:55LloreanBigBambi: Rhapsody e200 players, rather
22:39:59LloreanJust for clarity
22:40:15BigBambiLlorean: Hmmm, worthy of a manual mention?
22:40:22n1sre: discussion about the strlcpy-strncpy thing I think we should drop strncpy if we switch to strlcpy to discourage its use and use mempcy for example in places where strlcpy doesn't fit
22:40:29kugelpeople seem to report drm loss on the fuze as well
22:40:32LambdaCalculus37Is DRM loss mentioned in the H300 manual?
22:40:47kugeln1s: you get my vote
22:40:49BigBambiLambdaCalculus37: It is about to be
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22:41:00LambdaCalculus37BigBambi: It already is.
22:41:10*LambdaCalculus37 looks at the Sansa manual
22:41:18pixelmait is but quite late
22:41:20BigBambiLambdaCalculus37: Which section?
22:41:35BigBambiI'm about to mention it at the very start of the installation section
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22:41:49LloreanBigBambi: I am not entirely sure if it's worthy of mention or not. It'd be nice to know if it's "installing Rockbox" that breaks it or "not following our instructions, doing stupid things, then finally installing Rockbox" that breaks it.
22:41:58LambdaCalculus37BigBambi: Here, under "installing the bootloader":
22:42:02BigBambiLlorean: I'll leave it for now then
22:42:07BigBambiLambdaCalculus37: ah, there
22:42:09LloreanSince there are other people who claim it's not broken, and the two cases where I've heard of it broken were people who had install difficulties.
22:42:16BigBambiLambdaCalculus37: I see it now
22:42:24BigBambiLlorean: OK
22:42:51LambdaCalculus37BigBambi: And the e200 manual has a nice big warning about not using those install instructions on Rhapsody e200s, so I think the DRM loss mention should be on the E200RInstallation page.
22:43:04BigBambiLambdaCalculus37: Yes, agreed
22:43:15low_lightQball: thanks. the first bit of the Z value is an "index" (I didn't forgot to display it separately). That suggests the vertical slider is index 0 and the horiz one is #1.
22:43:35low_lightrather bit 7 is index
22:43:43LloreanLambdaCalculus37: Well, arguably, the e200R installation instructions need to be moved to the manual
22:43:53Lloreannow that we have a proper tool for it, and non-changing instructions
22:44:01Qballlow_light: also 19 90 slowly shows when releasing one of the buttons
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22:45:05LambdaCalculus37Llorean: Should that be done with an \opt{}, or just added with a \note{} in the manual?
22:45:07low_lightQball: the "buttons" only respond to when the active state changes (presses and releases). "90" means no button
22:45:26Qballlow_light: ok, just trying to give you sufficient info
22:46:41pixelmaLambdaCalculus37: as far as I know there is no separate e200R manual, so
22:46:57LambdaCalculus37pixelma: Make the e200 manual an e200/e200R manual?
22:47:01LloreanYes, I think so.
22:47:19low_lightQball: I'm still confused as to why the vertical strip doesn't work as-is (it should duplicate the horizontal one).
22:47:22LambdaCalculus37Llorean: Okay, good call.
22:47:44Qballlow_light: does nothing.
22:47:59QballI do hear "clicks"
22:48:04Qballbut I guess that hw
22:48:31low_lightQball: I'll try to come up with a some new button code to test tomorrow
22:48:33 Quit ender` (" But there, everything has its drawbacks, as the man said when his mother-in-law died, and they came down upon him for the f")
22:48:41low_lighthave to go now. Thanks for testing.
22:48:48Qballlow_light: if I ever meet you
22:48:54Qballremind me to buy you a beer
22:48:55Qballor 2
22:49:27 Quit low_light (" ajax IRC Client")
22:49:31LambdaCalculus37Qball: Make sure to make them good beers. Here, we take pride in our beer drinking. :)
22:49:42QballLambdaCalculus37: belgium beer?
22:49:55LambdaCalculus37Qball: Belgium beer is always on-topic. :)
22:50:08Qballpersonally I don't drink beer.
22:50:13LambdaCalculus37But try not to flood here with beer talk... take it to #rockbox-community.
22:50:29Qballcan't sing the beer song?
22:50:47 Quit mcuelenaere ()
22:52:26BigBambiLambdaCalculus37: Now you are here, does Mac OS X call mount point anything odd?
22:52:42BigBambiAs in, can I say "You need to know the player mount point?"
22:52:49 Quit moos ("reboot")
22:52:54BigBambier, sway ? and "
22:53:00BigBambiand *swap
22:53:09LambdaCalculus37BigBambi: For the manual?
22:53:31 Join Shoot40 [0] (
22:54:11LambdaCalculus37In Rockbox Utility, you have to know what the drive appears as (e.g. /Volumes/<name of volume>), and point to it. But iPodpatcher and Sansapatcher don't really need to know; they'll detect whatever's connected.
22:54:33kadobandoes anyone have an M3 and is willing to try a plugin for me? (i am unsure of the controls as I can't even look at a manual)
22:54:34LambdaCalculus37pixelma: In manual/platform/e200.tex, should I just add a new \edef\UseOption{e200r}, or make the first \def{} "\def\NewOption{e200,e200r}" instead?
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22:55:28n1sLambdaCalculus37: what do you need the "e200r" opt for?
22:55:38BigBambiLambdaCalculus37: Right, but in the sentance "On Windows this means you need to know the drive letter associated with the \dap{}. On Linux and Mac OS X you need to know the mount point of your \dap{}" can I put Mac OS X like that, or does it call them omething else
22:56:59LambdaCalculus37Mac OS X goes by Volumes. For example, my Gigabeast appears on my desktop as "Gigabeast" (the volume name).
22:57:11LambdaCalculus37So you can make Mac OS X "You need to know the Volume name of your device".
22:57:24BigBambiLambdaCalculus37: OK, thanks
22:57:43LambdaCalculus37n1s: Because we're going to add the e200R install instructions into the manual.
22:58:08LloreanLambdaCalculus37: Doesn't rbutil auto-detect in OSX too?
22:58:19BigBambiLlorean: It should, yes
22:58:21amiconnDoesn't that use exactly the same build as the plain e200?
22:58:32LambdaCalculus37Llorean: It does.
22:58:40BigBambiThis is part of a note that if it doesn't
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22:58:54LloreanMissed that somewhere
22:58:57BigBambiand for manual unzipping
22:58:59LambdaCalculus37But sometimes, like if you connect one device, do your stuff, close RButil and start again with a different device connected, RButil will still be looking for the first device.
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22:59:09BigBambiLlorean: Probably because I didn't say it before :)
22:59:15Lloreanamiconn: e200 / e200 R use the same build, but very different install procedures.
22:59:19LloreanFor bootloader install, that is
22:59:27LambdaCalculus37n1s: Llorean answered the question.
22:59:39LambdaCalculus37So we should add the bootloader install instructions to the manual.
22:59:45amiconnLlorean: Sure, but identical builds mean that they also share the manual
23:00:14amiconn-> you won't need a separate \opt
23:00:17Lloreanamiconn: Yes.
23:00:28n1sLambdaCalculus37: if they are goin gto use the same manual there's no need for a separate opt as both "e200" and "e200r" will be defined at exactly the same time
23:00:45n1swhat they said ^
23:01:03LambdaCalculus37Okay, no \opt then.
23:01:15BigBambiI'll get to e200r
23:02:00LambdaCalculus37BigBambi: I just changed manual/platform/e200.tex to at least add the title "e200 and e200R Series".
23:02:00LambdaCalculus37I'll add that in at least.
23:02:16*LambdaCalculus37 also decides to change "Sansa c200" to read "Sansa c200 Series"
23:02:54 Quit moos (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:02:54*Llorean thinks using the word "series" helps in many places.
23:03:54 Join AndyIL [0] (i=AndyI@
23:04:39LambdaCalculus37Llorean: Changes are committed.
23:04:58kadobanAre any developers interested in helping me get a plugin submitted? (FS #7369) I'm willing to do whatever is necessary to get it ready, and I'll take initiative with any bug reports and porting to new targets if I can. (I mentioned this earlier, but i'm hoping to spark some interest in this time zone)
23:05:01LambdaCalculus37If you think it'll help as well, I'll change the name of the H100 manual to just read "iriver iHP-100 and H100 Series" next.
23:05:32LloreanLambdaCalculus37: That's bad.
23:05:39LambdaCalculus37Llorean: Then I shall not do so.
23:05:43LloreanThe h100 "series" actually covers two unique hardwares.
23:05:44 Quit {phoenix} (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:05:52LloreanThe h110/115 with 16mb of RAM and the h120/140 with 32mb
23:05:56LloreanThese use different builds.
23:05:57LambdaCalculus37Llorean: Ahh, that's right.
23:06:04LambdaCalculus37Okay, it shall be left alone, then.
23:06:07LambdaCalculus37Gotta go!
23:06:08 Quit taylor__ ("Leaving")
23:06:08 Quit LambdaCalculus37 ("Fwump")
23:06:11amiconnThe manual is the same though, iirc
23:06:40LloreanYeah, it seems to be.
23:06:51*Llorean thinks it possibly shouldn't be, but isn't a big deal
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23:33:31kugelamiconn: sometimes, my e200 sim gets black over a bigger than display area
23:33:52kugellike 176x250 of black, instead of 176x220
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23:37:40amiconnDefine sometimes
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23:44:28kugelamiconn: randomly
23:45:03kugelI didn't figure how to reproduce, it happens quite often though
23:46:01amiconnAt the top or at the bottom?
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23:46:11kugelso, and I'm trying to reproduce the data abort in add_handle with logf, but unfortunately the memory isn't big enough to add the beginning of the 6th song of the playlist that certainly crashes
23:46:18kugelamiconn: bottom
23:46:32kugelit overlaps with the ret 9
23:46:37JdGordon_is the sim broken? im getting "incomplete installation" after doing make install
23:50:00amiconnkugel: weird
23:50:05kugelthat sucks...
23:50:22 Quit MethoS (Remote closed the connection)
23:50:34kugelso I'm lucky to find a playlist to trigger a data abort, and now I can't logf with it :/
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23:52:08bertriktalking about data aborts, isn't it possible to show more information during an exception? like the contents of the link registers (or possibly just all registers)?
23:52:19JdGordon_anyone have any ideas why the sim would complain about incomplete install.. and not being able to open the files browser but the cabbie icons are sll shown!
23:53:45kugelthe data abort doesn't seem to happen w/o dircache and load to ram
23:54:25kadobanJdGordon: sim seems to be working for me, from latest svn (only tried e200)
23:55:01kugelJdGordon_: messed with the file access rights?
23:55:14JdGordon_no, rights are all fine
23:55:22kugeltry sudo ./rockboxui :p
23:55:32kugelit's working here too (except for the mentioned backlight issue=
23:55:34JdGordon_same thing
23:56:19JdGordon_maybe its a fubar sdl install? no idea how to check that thouh
23:56:57amiconnkugel: There might be a bug in the clipping. The blitting won't show it, because it cannot blit outside the source surface area, but the blackfilling uses SDL_FillRect
23:57:23pixelmakugel: I don't use dircache or load to RAM but I guess turning on/off options that change buffer size might have some influence (the buffering crash)
23:57:36amiconnJdGordon: Maybe strace will tell you
23:57:50amiconnOr gdb
23:58:17kugelpixelma: well, decreasing the buffer made the data abort disappear (the 6th song isn't loaded into the buffer), but enlarging it too it seems (even though the 6th is of course loaded now)
23:58:17amiconnIt must be a problem with your installation though. Sim's working fine here

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