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| 00:11:41 | kugel | \0/ |
| 00:11:55 | kugel | Good job!!!!!!!! |
| 00:12:04 | * | kugel is a bit late to the party |
| 00:13:00 | gevaerts | kugel: the last yellow fix isn't built yet, so you're in time :) |
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| 00:16:33 | kugel | gevaerts: all targets have usb no, except 1-4gen ipods? |
| 00:16:47 | gevaerts | except 1-3gen ipods |
| 00:16:52 | gevaerts | 4th gen has it |
| 00:16:57 | amiconn | 1st and 2nd gen ipods have no usb anyway |
| 00:17:03 | amiconn | (only firewire) |
| 00:17:28 | Bagder | "the person from nvidia i know wont give me the data sheet" now that came as a complete surprise! ;-) |
| 00:17:29 | * | gevaerts thinks that there's a bit of wiki fixup to do |
| 00:17:29 | rasher | So 3G is the odd one out? |
| 00:17:37 | Bagder | (quote from the forum) |
| 00:17:43 | rasher | gevaerts: and manual.. |
| 00:17:47 | | Quit ender` (" Remember: A secretary isn't permanent until she's been screwed on the desk...") |
| 00:18:11 | * | gevaerts should never have started this... |
| 00:18:34 | kugel | gevaerts: first page is fixed :) |
| 00:19:36 | kugel | what a great day :) |
| 00:20:47 | n1s | Bagder: I think this usb stuff warrants a news item on the front page |
| 00:21:12 | Bagder | let's poke Zagor! |
| 00:21:32 | gevaerts | Maybe it also needs a |
| 00:21:32 | | Quit billenium ("Lost terminal") |
| 00:21:36 | gevaerts | MajorChanges line |
| 00:21:55 | rasher | I'll say |
| 00:21:56 | kugel | gevaerts: yea, someone is already editing it.... |
| 00:22:05 | rasher | Bagder: can't we all add to the news? |
| 00:22:12 | Bagder | yes |
| 00:22:20 | Bagder | but it's not updated automatically |
| 00:22:24 | rasher | Ahh |
| 00:22:30 | Bagder | so once the page is changed in svn, we need to svn up there |
| 00:22:32 | kugel | "USB stack on..." isn't quite right is it? |
| 00:22:37 | kugel | the stack was there before |
| 00:23:20 | rasher | enabled |
| 00:23:38 | * | rasher gets lost in the manual |
| 00:23:49 | amiconn | rasher: USB on the 3rd gen is special in several aspects. The 3rd gen can't charge via usb, and iirc it only has usb1.1 |
| 00:23:53 | kugel | it reads USB enabled now |
| 00:24:15 | amiconn | The controller is different - not sure whether it's built into the PP5002 or whether it's separate |
| 00:24:31 | amiconn | I guess the former, judging from the controller addresses |
| 00:24:36 | * | rasher weeps for the 3G owners |
| 00:25:22 | amiconn | The controller base address follows a rather typical relation between PP5002 and PP502x: 0xc0005000 on PP5002, 0xc5000000 on PP502x |
| 00:25:56 | amiconn | Several modules have this relation: 0xX000Y000 <-> 0xXY000000 |
| 00:27:28 | | Join LambdaCalculus37 [0] (n=rmenes@rockbox/staff/LambdaCalculus37) |
| 00:28:53 | gevaerts | IpodFAQ, SansaFAQ and IriverH10Port still mention lack of USB support |
| 00:29:25 | * | rasher is on it |
| 00:30:00 | rasher | Wow, SansaFAQ has it all over the place |
| 00:30:36 | * | rasher removes information about the bootloader booting OF on usb insert, since it'll be false soon anyway |
| 00:30:40 | rasher | And it's not vital |
| 00:31:01 | rasher | It still explains how to boot it using the keypress |
| 00:34:14 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
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| 00:37:11 | kugel | rasher: well, it's false right now. Until they update nobody has USB |
| 00:38:16 | rasher | I guess |
| 00:38:55 | * | kugel wonders if it's safe to wipe the OF entirely now |
| 00:39:09 | rasher | The wiki has historically documented current builds, but I suppose there's a case for documenting the current release, but I'm not sure how that'd work |
| 00:39:19 | kugel | I still have it in the SYSTEM folder (I replaced the bootloader a long time ago already) |
| 00:39:56 | kugel | I think I keep it, until there's some usb mode in the bootloader |
| 00:40:39 | rasher | There's always rescue mode |
| 00:42:54 | kugel | e200tool you mean? |
| 00:43:23 | Llorean | Recovery mode, unless you want to nuke that too. |
| 00:43:27 | Llorean | Which would be pretty pointless. |
| 00:43:49 | kugel | pointless? it saves several seconds bootup time to replace to OF bootloader |
| 00:44:10 | rasher | Then there's e200tool, yes. |
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| 00:45:32 | Llorean | kugel: You've verified that removing all of the OF except recovery mode takes significantly longer than also removing recovery mode? |
| 00:45:57 | kugel | Llorean: You can remove the OF without recovery mode? |
| 00:46:22 | Llorean | Since Recovery Mode is used for recovering a damaged OF, I'd imagine they're separate... |
| 00:46:30 | kugel | I have replaced the OF bootloader with the Rockbox one (and if I want to the OF I load the one from the SYSTEM folder) |
| 00:46:49 | Llorean | You still have recovery mode if you put a rockbox bootloader as PP5022.MI4 on a recovery partition, right? |
| 00:46:57 | kugel | afaik that's the only other way to install the rockbox bootloader |
| 00:47:22 | kugel | no, I don't |
| 00:47:48 | kugel | hm, I didn't know of that way, I haven't tried |
| 00:48:00 | | Quit bluebrother ("leaving") |
| 00:48:04 | kugel | I used the -b option of sansapatcher, which gets rid of the OF bootloader at all |
| 00:48:06 | Llorean | What was the "no, I don't" in response to then, if you haven't tried? |
| 00:48:24 | kugel | I don't have the recovery mode |
| 00:48:40 | Llorean | But you didn't do it the way I described... |
| 00:49:03 | kugel | No, I didn't |
| 00:49:10 | Llorean | I didn't ask "Do you have recovery mode", I asked if it was available if the bootloader was installed the way I described. |
| 00:49:21 | Llorean | Whether you have it or not is irrelevant to the question... |
| 00:49:44 | kugel | I didn't even think of doing it the way you described |
| 00:49:58 | rasher | Now, who will start working on iTunes support? |
| 00:50:16 | Llorean | kugel: It should net you the much faster bootup time without losing recovery mode, if my understanding is correct. |
| 00:50:30 | kugel | Llorean: but that doesn't remove the OF bootloader then, and thus don't save much bootup time, I assume |
| 00:51:00 | Llorean | Most of the bootup time is in what it loads, not the fact that it runs, I think. Similar to iPods. |
| 00:51:15 | Llorean | Since it'll be loading a much smaller image (just the RB bootloader, not the combined RB+OF) it should run much faster. |
| 00:51:44 | | Join rocko [0] (n=rocko@c-67-167-117-152.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 00:52:03 | kugel | but that recovery mode doesn't help me much anyway. I'm not searching for a way to recover the OF, but rockbox, in case something goes wrong |
| 00:53:16 | Llorean | You can put a rockbox.mi4 in recovery mode, recover Rockbox AS the "main" firmware, then use its USB mode to do whatever you want. |
| 00:54:57 | rasher | kugel: well, once you have the OF, you can get Rockbox. |
| 00:55:02 | kugel | rockbox is then installed on this firmware partition, right? the bootloader doesn't look there after the reboot (and IIRC it reboots after recovery mode) |
| 00:55:33 | kugel | rasher: well, of course, that's why I have it in the system folder. that's one step less in case I need to recover |
| 00:56:03 | Llorean | kugel: What bootloader doesn't look there after the reboot? |
| 00:56:23 | kugel | ah, the OF bootloader will load rockbox directly then, correct? |
| 00:56:28 | Llorean | It should, yes. |
| 00:57:33 | kugel | hm, I think I'll just keep things like they are. The of.bin in the system folder doesn't really disturb me |
| 00:58:01 | rasher | Llorean: if I forget, delete the usb test build whenever you feel like it |
| 00:59:01 | Llorean | I'll try to remember to do that after dinner later. |
| 00:59:42 | Llorean | Or, since it's already locked, may as well go ahead |
| 00:59:50 | Llorean | I was gonna leave it a little bit to see if that one guy responded with more info |
| 00:59:57 | rasher | Figured I'd leave it around for a bit so people don't wonder what happened |
| 01:00 |
| 01:00:04 | rasher | (in case they miss the news) |
| 01:00:29 | Llorean | I think if it's missing they're more likely to look for the news, honestly. |
| 01:00:30 | rasher | Too slow... |
| 01:00:41 | Llorean | If we leave it, they'll just read the first post, and dowload it instead of the official build. |
| 01:00:41 | rasher | Might be |
| 01:00:59 | rasher | I edited that |
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| 01:01:36 | Llorean | Ah well, it could be good or bad either way. |
| 01:02:02 | | Quit T0paz ("Leaving") |
| 01:02:11 | rasher | Let's not waste more time on that, then |
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| 01:03:50 | * | Llorean posts something to the announcement forum. |
| 01:04:27 | rasher | Probably should include "will be in 3.2, due to be released ____" |
| 01:04:50 | LambdaCalculus37 | Here's to PortalPlayer USB! |
| 01:04:53 | * | LambdaCalculus37 hoists a beer |
| 01:05:42 | * | Llorean hopes he got the list of players right |
| 01:06:07 | gevaerts | Llorean: mrobe 100 |
| 01:06:15 | kugel | Llorean: nope :) |
| 01:06:35 | LambdaCalculus37 | I was just about to post that Llorean missed the m:robe 100. |
| 01:06:51 | * | Llorean always forgets that darn thing. |
| 01:07:16 | LambdaCalculus37 | Llorean: It's the unloved target. ;) |
| 01:07:50 | * | Llorean is glad that he only missed one, the topic was at its max length without M:Robe already |
| 01:09:53 | | Join stripwax [0] (n=Miranda@87-194-34-169.bethere.co.uk) |
| 01:15:42 | * | rasher compiles bootloaders |
| 01:16:05 | * | Llorean cheers |
| 01:19:32 | | Quit MethoS-- (Remote closed the connection) |
| 01:23:45 | LambdaCalculus37 | rasher: \o/ |
| 01:25:50 | | Quit LambdaCalculus37 ("dinner time!") |
| 01:26:11 | | Quit homielowe () |
| 01:26:27 | * | stripwax reads logs |
| 01:26:42 | rasher | Which one is the bootloader file for ipods - bootloader.bin or bootloader-ipod4g.ipod? |
| 01:26:47 | stripwax | gevaerts - congrats on USB enabled! |
| 01:27:15 | gevaerts | stripwax: Thanks! Don't forget all other people involved though |
| 01:27:29 | gevaerts | rasher: yes |
| 01:27:40 | rasher | gevaerts: *stab* |
| 01:27:49 | stripwax | s/gevaerts/gevaerts+all the other people too!/ |
| 01:27:55 | gevaerts | rasher: as in, ipodpatcher can install both |
| 01:29:15 | gevaerts | rasher: the builtin ones seem to be .ipod |
| 01:29:28 | midgey | n1s was posting the .ipod variants of the bootloaders for 3.0 flyspray |
| 01:29:57 | Nico_P | rasher: I think you got mixed up on the IpodFAQ page |
| 01:29:58 | Llorean | rasher: I think .ipod just has the small target prefix at the beginning to identify what player it's supposed to be for, and the .bin doesn't, but I could be wrong |
| 01:30:20 | rasher | Llorean: Sounds likely |
| 01:30:23 | n1s | midgey: yes, since those were the ones that got built into ipodpatcher i felt it made the most sense |
| 01:31:11 | n1s | midgey: anyways, great to hear that you intend to take another look at that plugin localization thing :) |
| 01:31:44 | midgey | i better get something posted soon, my free time is beginning to wear down again... |
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| 01:32:24 | rasher | FS #9955 |
| 01:32:41 | stripwax | (apologies in advance if this sort of stuff was already discussed to death, but that said..) - So looking at the usb speeds I'm wondering how much of the pp rockbox usb code originally came from reverse engineering ipod EDM. Some, much, very little, ..? |
| 01:33:02 | stripwax | (by usb speeds I mean the pastebin posts earlier) |
| 01:33:32 | gevaerts | stripwax: speeds are actually mostly limited by the various storage drivers |
| 01:34:23 | stripwax | interesting - was the video 5g a 30g or 60g/80g model? |
| 01:34:27 | gevaerts | 30g |
| 01:36:36 | kugel | rasher: I suppose we also release new sansa/ipodpatcher (etc) when we release new bootloader? |
| 01:36:42 | gevaerts | As for reverse engineering, the USB controller setup (and related things) are a bit magic, but the actual driver was implemented using the imx31 datasheet |
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| 01:38:22 | stripwax | Yeah, I remember some of the USB controller setup investigation stuff discussion and the magic pp bit-setting init sequence, wonder if full OF (rather than EDM) uses something different, but if bottleneck is storage driver it's a moot point |
| 01:39:25 | stripwax | I also know practically nothing about USB (do the incoming commands look like individual requests for sector / multisector reads/writes , or something higher level) |
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| 01:39:43 | gevaerts | I once got 13MB/s (IIRC) on my c250 when doing dummy writes (or maybe ramdisk, can't remember). That's a while ago though, I should retest this |
| 01:40:10 | gevaerts | stripwax: it's basically multisector reads/writes, using SCSI commands |
| 01:42:34 | stripwax | do we do cached reads from ram or is ram not really used for much during usb? wondering how much to-ing and fro-ing there is between reading fat/filesystem and writing file sectors etc |
| 01:42:45 | midgey | rasher: ipod 4g bootloader seems good |
| 01:43:00 | rasher | midgey: Probably best to report in the tracker |
| 01:43:02 | stripwax | I think I saw a patch regarding fat caching / fat read-ahead somewhere in the tracker |
| 01:43:05 | midgey | already done |
| 01:43:43 | gevaerts | stripwax: it's at a lower level than that. the OS is supposed to do caching if/when needed |
| 01:43:52 | | Quit n1s ("Lämnar") |
| 01:44:20 | stripwax | gevaerts - as in, the host OS? just thinking we could do device OS caching too |
| 01:44:49 | gevaerts | stripwax: host, yes. Device caching doesn't make much sense I think, unless we do readahead |
| 01:44:54 | stripwax | right |
| 01:45:11 | | Quit homielowe () |
| 01:45:14 | midgey | Does FS #9708 (PP ATA DMA) improve USB speeds at all? |
| 01:45:24 | | Quit Thundercloud (Remote closed the connection) |
| 01:46:11 | gevaerts | And even then, the cases where we could do readahead are probably the ones where the host OS is already doing it, so we're busy serving USB requests anyway |
| 01:46:13 | stripwax | final random thought (for now), any likelihood OF is using DMA to transfer data from ATA to USB registers? |
| 01:46:25 | stripwax | gevaerts - ah, good point. scratch that then |
| 01:47:11 | gevaerts | stripwax: DMA straight from ATA to USB can't be done with this USB controller, unless I'm missing something |
| 01:47:48 | gevaerts | the PP USB controller does DMA from RAM though, so we're not busy-waiting or things like that |
| 01:48:17 | gevaerts | midgey: probably worth looking into |
| 01:48:47 | stripwax | gevaerts - 3 for 3 then! :) thanks. I'll stop making random guesses now - what are the known storage driver bottlenecks at the moment |
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| 01:49:09 | rasher | gevaerts: I just got errors... |
| 01:49:34 | gevaerts | I don't really know. We're slower on write in just about any target, but I don't know those drivers |
| 01:49:38 | gevaerts | rasher: what sort? |
| 01:50:01 | rasher | http://pastebin.ca/1347339 |
| 01:50:23 | gevaerts | rasher: nothing else? |
| 01:50:26 | rasher | The cable is quite definitely inserted fully. And it only seemed to happen after I tried to write to it |
| 01:50:52 | rasher | gevaerts: Sorry, those messages, repeated to fill the buffer |
| 01:51:18 | gevaerts | rasher: anything in /var/log/kern.log? |
| 01:51:58 | rasher | Nope, it starts out like that |
| 01:52:10 | kugel | ata-sd-pp has some assembly fast-write function, I don't know how they are used though |
| 01:52:19 | kugel | that doesn't help hdd targets though |
| 01:52:24 | gevaerts | rasher: does lsusb still see the device? |
| 01:52:39 | * | rasher removed the cable :\ |
| 01:52:40 | rasher | Sorry |
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| 03:15:52 | Unhelpful | JdGordon: a fairly big deal for a plugin that's become obviously very memory-hungry as i attempt to remove its use of rb->bufalloc. my first try at that basically needs 1MB plugin buffer, which is a bit ridiculous. |
| 03:17:12 | Unhelpful | hrm, can tagcache be queried for "Nth unique album name"? that's basically what the album index that PF builds is storing, and it would be nice if the big pile of strings that it needs to store for that could go away... |
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| 03:18:39 | rasher | Unhelpful: If not, it shouldn't be hard to add. The DB has a file with exactly that |
| 03:18:53 | JdGordon | Unhelpful: yeah, I was being... ram saving are always good... |
| 03:19:26 | JdGordon | I think you need to do a search and then go through the results untill you get the Nth one |
| 03:19:32 | Unhelpful | JdGordon: well, as it stood before, pictureflow had about 150-200KB left in the plugin buffer when it started trying to load covers. |
| 03:19:34 | JdGordon | i.e no automatic way to do it |
| 03:19:53 | Unhelpful | heh, that's how it builds the index now. maybe i should get some stats on the size of that index before worrying much. |
| 03:19:54 | | Quit tvelocity (Remote closed the connection) |
| 03:20:42 | rasher | You could go through the file manually. It's ideally suited for fast lookup. But that obviously means maintaining code twice |
| 03:20:50 | Unhelpful | "freeing" the uniqbuf after the index is built is the largest single savings i've gotten so for |
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| 03:24:32 | saratoga | regarding the slow USB speed on the e200, there is a patch for doing DMA writes to SD memory |
| 03:24:36 | saratoga | perhaps that would help |
| 03:25:21 | saratoga | kugel: did you ever battery bench using the rockbox bootloader without the sandisk one? I wonder if power consumption is the same without the OF's inits |
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| 03:27:22 | kugel | saratoga: uhm, not recently. But I remember I did that once, and haven't noticed a noticeable difference to previous benches |
| 03:27:37 | kugel | previous/other |
| 03:28:27 | kugel | I could make one, though |
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| 03:29:24 | saratoga | kugel: thats good news |
| 03:29:26 | | Join zman977 [0] (n=zman977@72-48-67-200.dyn.grandenetworks.net) |
| 03:29:40 | saratoga | i'd been wondering if we really did all the inits right in rockbox to run optimally without the OF |
| 03:29:59 | saratoga | also, did you ever benchmark gcc4.3.2? |
| 03:30:45 | kugel | Unhelpful: you could add such a search, I suppose |
| 03:31:30 | Unhelpful | i'm not sure it'll be needed now. the uniqbuf frees much of the total space used. |
| 03:31:42 | kugel | saratoga: I'll do a bench with svn bootloader soon, then we'll see |
| 03:32:47 | kugel | Unhelpful: I always had the suspicion that the static hell eats memory more than it needs to |
| 03:32:54 | | Quit homielowe_ () |
| 03:33:30 | JdGordon | why is the uniqbuf actually needed anyway? shouldnt all entries on disk be forced to be unique? |
| 03:33:35 | Unhelpful | in many plugins, it won't matter. but, a really *huge* static buffer needed only while initializing plugin data? that's horrid. |
| 03:34:03 | Unhelpful | JdGordon: i was wondering about that, as well... aren't *album* entries supposed to be unique already? |
| 03:34:07 | kugel | Unhelpful: yes, but the other plugins don't have some hundreds of static vars |
| 03:34:27 | kugel | It always looked to me that pf has more static vars that normal ones |
| 03:34:54 | JdGordon | Unhelpful: all string values i would thing should be stored as unique |
| 03:35:09 | JdGordon | Slasheri is the man to talk to about this... |
| 03:35:21 | kugel | is he alive? |
| 03:35:32 | kugel | :p |
| 03:42:24 | Unhelpful | hrm, might the uniqbuf be needed here if there are two albums with the same name, by different artists? |
| 03:43:42 | | Quit kugel (Nick collision from services.) |
| 03:43:47 | | Join kugel [0] (n=kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel) |
| 03:49:48 | zman977 | hey i got a quick question. where would be a good place to start to make a bootloader for the sansa view? the view carrys the mi4 firmware |
| 03:50:37 | kugel | Unhelpful: would it matter? pf doesn't really handle anyway |
| 03:51:29 | kugel | zman977: you first need to find out how to run code, then you can think about a bootloader |
| 03:52:27 | saratoga | we can actually run code, its the same as the Sansa, just theres no drivers |
| 03:52:47 | kugel | oh |
| 03:52:49 | kugel | cool |
| 03:53:16 | zman977 | so we need to firgure out the drivers then? |
| 03:53:18 | kugel | can we run code without bricking? |
| 03:53:32 | kugel | if yes I'd try to re-use some e200 drivers |
| 03:53:34 | saratoga | interestingly enough, the exploit they fixed on the Rhapsody players isn't fixed on the View |
| 03:53:59 | saratoga | i think the only common hardware is the DAC, so reusing drivers is mostly out |
| 03:54:00 | kugel | particulary the back/buttonlight ones, those appear to be the same for virtually any sansa |
| 03:54:07 | saratoga | ah thats true |
| 03:54:23 | kugel | the dac? I.e. the as3514 too? |
| 03:54:34 | saratoga | its some AMS chip, maybe not the same one |
| 03:54:34 | zman977 | i think some one did run the e200 bootloader |
| 03:54:35 | kugel | then button and backlight will probably work |
| 03:54:47 | zman977 | just no lcd and idk about buttons |
| 03:54:54 | saratoga | you can load the e200 bootloader, but without LCD its rather pointless |
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| 03:55:11 | zman977 | so first stem is to get the lcd working? |
| 03:55:22 | LambdaCalculus37 | kugel: It's an AS3517 in the View. |
| 03:55:25 | zman977 | step* |
| 03:55:27 | kugel | zman977: you should try to get some visual feedback by letting the buttonlight or backlight blink |
| 03:55:44 | | Quit JdGordon (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 03:55:53 | zman977 | ok |
| 03:55:59 | kugel | LambdaCalculus37: ah, ok. Well, the backlight and buttonlight is the same for as3514 and as3525, so it's probably the same on as3517 too |
| 03:56:16 | LambdaCalculus37 | kugel: Only one way to find out, right? |
| 03:56:31 | kugel | two, actually :) |
| 03:56:37 | saratoga | i assume the pins aren't the same though, and PP derivied chips have a lot of GPIOs |
| 03:57:02 | kugel | yea, unlike the ams sansas |
| 03:57:36 | kugel | saratoga: one could think they reintroduced the exploit :) |
| 03:57:52 | saratoga | maybe they don't hate us afterall |
| 03:58:16 | | Quit saratoga ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") |
| 03:58:19 | kugel | they should love us |
| 03:58:21 | | Join saratoga [0] (n=9803c6dd@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-8bfea83599577f8c) |
| 03:58:36 | saratoga | honestly, given the difficulty of the port, I'm not sure what the point is |
| 03:58:40 | saratoga | just get a Fuze |
| 03:59:06 | kugel | well, I haven't seen a view yet, but I always found that a very interesting player |
| 03:59:28 | kugel | more interesting than the fuze, to be honest |
| 03:59:45 | zman977 | i like it because it carrys the goforce 6100 |
| 04:00 |
| 04:00:24 | kugel | because it's called goforce, or what's to like about the goforce 6100? |
| 04:00:56 | saratoga | they renamed PP to goforce I think |
| 04:00:57 | zman977 | its from nvidia idk lol |
| 04:01:20 | zman977 | oh well like i said im now to the protable player stuff |
| 04:01:22 | kugel | saratoga: goforce existed before the acquisition |
| 04:01:26 | zman977 | new* |
| 04:01:36 | saratoga | yeah but not for ARM i think |
| 04:02:01 | kugel | well, I thought the goforce 6100 was an extra chip in the view anyway (for video) |
| 04:02:16 | LambdaCalculus37 | Nope. It's the main SoC. |
| 04:02:34 | saratoga | kugel: no its the pp6110 |
| 04:02:43 | kugel | oh |
| 04:02:50 | * | kugel hides then |
| 04:02:52 | saratoga | basically PP but with an ARM11 core |
| 04:03:07 | kugel | arm11, not bad. could be a second beast |
| 04:03:08 | LambdaCalculus37 | I wonder what kind of potential power you can get from that. :) |
| 04:03:46 | zman977 | idk but isnt the arm11 close to whats in the ipod touch? |
| 04:03:48 | * | kugel needs to find a funny typo for that before anyone else does |
| 04:04:15 | LambdaCalculus37 | zman977: Please stop saying "idk", and use full English here. |
| 04:04:36 | LambdaCalculus37 | And the Gigabeast already has an ARM11 core. |
| 04:04:41 | zman977 | Oh I'm sorry. |
| 04:04:46 | saratoga | if the fuzev2 is actually an AMS353x, its probably pretty comparable |
| 04:04:54 | saratoga | though the view is 32GB |
| 04:05:11 | kugel | ams353x comparable ? |
| 04:05:20 | saratoga | honestly, the sooner the view is canceled the sooner we'll have 32GB AMS targets, so I'm not that big a fan of it |
| 04:05:40 | kugel | hehe |
| 04:06:55 | saratoga | i guess the whole "flash based portable media player thats not an ipod" market ended up being a lot smaller then sandisk expected, and so theres little reason to replace the view |
| 04:07:45 | kugel | I think they rather bring a view v2, maybe ams based one; before they get rid of it at all |
| 04:08:48 | kugel | but it's better touch based, there's little point in bringing a upper budget player without |
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| 04:10:19 | saratoga | i assume the ViewV2 would just be a fuzev2 with a bigger screen and more video formats |
| 04:10:55 | kugel | and touch based :) |
| 04:11:36 | LambdaCalculus37 | I would like to explore more with the View, but I haven't got one, and I haven't much money to get one. :) |
| 04:11:40 | saratoga | don't the fuze and view already look nearly the same? |
| 04:11:48 | LambdaCalculus37 | saratoga: Nope. |
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| 04:12:10 | LambdaCalculus37 | The View is taller and thinner, with a 240x320 LCD. |
| 04:12:24 | Unhelpful | kugel: if it doesn't handle that already, it certainly ought to ;) |
| 04:12:26 | LambdaCalculus37 | The Fuze resembles the 3rd gen nano, and has a 220x176 LCD. |
| 04:13:14 | kugel | Unhelpful: there's a feature request about it I think |
| 04:13:48 | saratoga | the pictures look just like my fuze, but with a bigger screen |
| 04:13:53 | saratoga | even the wheel and home button look the same |
| 04:13:54 | kugel | LambdaCalculus37: but that's all, isn't it? |
| 04:13:59 | | Quit avis (Remote closed the connection) |
| 04:14:12 | kugel | so it's pretty much like the fuze |
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| 04:18:06 | LambdaCalculus37 | kugel: But certainly not internally. |
| 04:20:51 | LambdaCalculus37 | Well, heading off now... be back tomorrow. |
| 04:21:07 | | Quit LambdaCalculus37 ("Fwump") |
| 04:21:47 | Unhelpful | this is kind of disgusting, removing the static uniqbuf has turned a 300KB+ plugin into a 49KB one :/ |
| 04:22:10 | kugel | haha |
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| 04:22:28 | kugel | does it still work at least? |
| 04:22:31 | Unhelpful | on the up side, i think it means that any target with PLUGIN_BUF_SIZE >= 0x60000 can work decently without bufalloc |
| 04:23:43 | Unhelpful | the ipod video will have it worst, with room for only about 14 slides in cache |
| 04:25:00 | | Join bs66_1 [0] (n=sysuser@95.209.16.52.bredband.tre.se) |
| 04:25:44 | zman977 | Well thanks for the help, i will mess around with the view tomarrow. |
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| 04:27:37 | Unhelpful | i think that implementing cache-to-core-buffer-first is still worthwhile, and it might be good to let the cache grow larger than the current limit, in that case |
| 04:29:17 | | Quit CaptainKewl (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) |
| 04:30:15 | | Quit zman977 ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com") |
| 04:30:33 | FlynDice | kugel: Do you know if mp3 playback works from the micro sd slot on the fuze? There was a report that it was working that way on an e280v2. |
| 04:31:45 | kugel | Not for me |
| 04:31:52 | | Quit blkhawk (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 04:32:16 | FlynDice | thx |
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| 04:32:53 | kugel | saratoga: does mp3 use iram? |
| 04:33:41 | kugel | I was wondering if the reboot is some kind of wrong iram access |
| 04:34:16 | kugel | saratoga: also, have you tried to build gcc with what I posted to the ml? |
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| 04:39:15 | saratoga | kugel: it uses IRAM extensively |
| 04:40:00 | saratoga | kugel: i haven't had time lately for programming, I will try to take a look at it as soon as I can |
| 04:40:17 | saratoga | i'd guess i'm just not properly flushing some cache or something similar |
| 04:40:36 | | Quit bs66_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 04:40:53 | Unhelpful | ok, now that it works decently without requiring 1MB plugin buffer, anybody want to give FS #9919 a try? it's working for me on beast, with the entire contents of the player loaded to playlist :D |
| 04:43:38 | saratoga | kugel: are you sure it was in mad_synth_thread? that function is just 5 lines long, all it does is wait on a sempahor then call something else |
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| 04:44:17 | kugel | saratoga: I was surprised too, but I'm fairly sure |
| 04:44:57 | kugel | I think I have the map and and codecs file somewhere if you want to take a look at it |
| 04:45:07 | saratoga | i will look into it once I build the compiler |
| 04:45:11 | saratoga | now i have to get back to work |
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| 05:17:51 | * | JdGordon seems to have a very stupid but probably simple bug somewhere... and cant find it :( |
| 05:18:41 | Dhraakellian | dude, I owe people certain people beers now, should I ever run into them |
| 05:19:25 | * | JdGordon is happy to collect on their behalf |
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| 05:35:26 | insanepotato | does the "dual ARM" described in the portal player data sheets mean 2 CPUs? does RB use both CPUs? |
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| 05:37:18 | saratoga | theres two CPUs, and some things are able to use them [mpegplayer, mp3 decode] |
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| 06:00 |
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| 07:15:30 | midgey | Unhelpful: I'm trying out your patches for pictureflow right now. is there anything i should be looking for? |
| 07:16:44 | | Quit FlynDice ("Konversation terminated!") |
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| 07:17:53 | Kanzar | ok, this is only very vaguely related - but does anyone have the old firmware files for the 2nd gen nano? i need to downgrade it :( |
| 07:19:22 | Unhelpful | midgey: not really. if you turn the number of slides up too high, you'll likely see some flickering back and forth between the proper cover image and the no-cover image. i'm working on a more stable method (in terms of not repeatedly changing its mind about what to keep) of managing the cache, which should solve that. |
| 07:19:50 | Unhelpful | the main thing is that it should still work as well during playback, even with the audio buffer full, as when not playing. |
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| 07:22:34 | midgey | err, whats up with the status bar in the settings menu? |
| 07:22:51 | midgey | (i havent used pictureflow so it's probably not new) |
| 07:25:11 | | Quit FlynDice (Remote closed the connection) |
| 07:25:16 | midgey | seems to work pretty well while playing music (on my gigabeat), nice work |
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| 07:33:14 | amiconn | Unhelpful: My opinion on this is that PF should have its own buffering system, but still be able to *optionally* use the audio buffer (also using its own buffering system, not core bufalloc) |
| 07:33:43 | amiconn | Then it would restrict itself to the plugin buffer if music is playing, but use the audiobuffer if music is stopped |
| 07:34:02 | amiconn | On lowmem targets it will have to use the audiobuffer anyway |
| 07:34:57 | amiconn | Do you know how much of those 49KB are bitmaps, i.e. wil become smaller on monochrome? |
| 07:36:10 | Unhelpful | the splash bitmap is about 13KiB on my color targets, i believe. i can also remove the static allocation for the album index, it was just easier to tackle either the titles cache or that by itself, than to do both. |
| 07:36:30 | Unhelpful | the titles cache *probably* has to stay for now, as tagcache doesn't |
| 07:36:55 | midgey | sounds like that splash screen is a good place to save size |
| 07:36:57 | Unhelpful | silly enter key in the way. tagcache doesn't (i think) allow one to query for "Nth unique album" |
| 07:37:48 | Unhelpful | midgey: it will be much, much smaller on greyscale targets - on the order of about 1/8 the size, i believe, for the same resolution? |
| 07:38:44 | midgey | i meant just size to save in general (mostly for color). it would have basically no effect on greyscale |
| 07:39:39 | * | amiconn is curious whether PF will become small enough to fit into the archos plugin ram |
| 07:39:40 | Unhelpful | well, even on e200, that's still only a little over half the size of a single cached slide |
| 07:40:10 | Unhelpful | amiconn: well, it should be possible, almost, to build it on archos now... |
| 07:41:21 | Unhelpful | why would you say we shouldn't use bufalloc? i'd rather not grab the whole audio buffer, in the event that we can eventually start playback from PF without leaving it. |
| 07:42:01 | Unhelpful | also, if audio is playing, but the buffer is not full, core bufalloc can still get us a larger slide cache than just the plugin buffer |
| 07:46:39 | amiconn | You would need to support two APIs: bufalloc and the internal one |
| 07:46:56 | amiconn | Also, I don't really trust bufalloc to work properly in a mixed-use case |
| 07:49:40 | Unhelpful | i don't see a big problem with the two API case, it's not much harder than "try to alloc from one buffer, then the other" |
| 07:50:15 | Unhelpful | ideally, a "discontiguous mode" for buffer_alloc would be best, if it has two buffers to work from |
| 07:50:52 | cool_walking_ | Which file (bootloader.bin or bootloader-ipodvideo.ipod) and switch for ipodpatcher do I want to use for testing the 3.2 bootloader? |
| 07:53:08 | Unhelpful | an easy way to test core bufalloc would be to use the "old" PF with enough music loaded to partially fill the buffer |
| 07:53:39 | | Quit CaptainKwel (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 07:59:43 | midgey | cool_walking_: either one works supposedly (I haven't tried) |
| 07:59:58 | midgey | I used the .ipod file with the -a flag on my 4G |
| 08:00 |
| 08:02:07 | cool_walking_ | Well that's confusing. Why are there two files then? and 4 switches (-wf, -wfb, -a, -ab) that all sound like they might do the same thing? |
| 08:04:40 | amiconn | -wf and -a aren't doing the same thing |
| 08:05:11 | cool_walking_ | but the names "add" vs "write" aren't very enlightening. |
| 08:05:20 | cool_walking_ | what's the difference? |
| 08:05:25 | amiconn | -wf *replaces* the OF with the bootloader, meaning faster boot at the cost of losing dual boot |
| 08:05:35 | amiconn | -a *adds* the bootloader to the OF |
| 08:05:35 | cool_walking_ | is that safe? |
| 08:05:44 | amiconn | yes |
| 08:06:02 | midgey | you'll still have disk mode |
| 08:07:07 | cool_walking_ | okay so what's the difference between -wf and -wfb? |
| 08:07:48 | cool_walking_ | oh, are the .bin and .ipod just a different file format, but you get the same result? |
| 08:07:55 | amiconn | The 'b' variants take a .bin file, the ones without 'b' take an .ipod file |
| 08:08:02 | amiconn | yes |
| 08:08:41 | cool_walking_ | okay, thanks. |
| 08:09:21 | amiconn | The .ipod is the .bin with a little header prepended that tells which model it is intended for, the file size, and a checksum, so corruption can be detected and installation on a "wrong" ipod can be prevented |
| 08:09:40 | amiconn | Once installed, the result is exactly the same |
| 08:17:25 | | Quit BHSPitMonkey (Remote closed the connection) |
| 08:21:13 | * | Kanzar sighs :( |
| 08:25:35 | cool_walking_ | Is Rockbox supposed to stop snap out of the USB screen when you do a "safely remove" or "eject"? It used to on my Gigabeat S, but since a while ago it started just staying at the USB screen. Now after updating my iPod video to a build with Rockbox USB, I notice it's doing it too. |
| 08:25:48 | cool_walking_ | s/stop// |
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| 09:33:14 | gartral | my E250 boots into the OF on usb insert still.. |
| 09:34:29 | kadoban | gartral: i believe you need a new bootloader to change that. there are ones being tested for 3.2 in flyspray |
| 09:35:38 | linuxstb | gartral: are you inserting usb before turning it on, or when Rockbox has started? if the first one, then what kadoban said. |
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| 09:46:00 | gartral | nah, found the new bootloader, thanks! |
| 09:46:22 | * | kadoban is glad that his completely unfounded assumption magically turned out correct |
| 09:48:19 | * | LinusN performs the late but happy USB mass storage dance |
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| 10:00 |
| 10:02:26 | * | gartral joins LinusN |
| 10:04:34 | Kanzar | ok, this is only very vaguely related - but does anyone have the old firmware files for the 2nd gen nano? i need to downgrade it :( |
| 10:05:35 | | Join n1s [0] (n=n1s@rockbox/developer/n1s) |
| 10:10:51 | midgey | Kanzar: your best bet is probably asking the linux4nano guys |
| 10:11:07 | Kanzar | yeah, i'm asking in there atm :P |
| 10:11:08 | Kanzar | thanks! |
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| 10:53:12 | advcomp2019 | the new bootloader will not boot my sansa e280R anyway i try |
| 10:58:23 | linuxstb | advcomp2019: Did you build an e200r bootloader? rasher's zip doesn't have one. |
| 10:59:16 | advcomp2019 | o i did not know that.. that was useful info now heh |
| 11:00 |
| 11:01:21 | advcomp2019 | i posted in the FS #9955 without knowing that |
| 11:02:12 | linuxstb | I guess rasher forgot about that difference as well - the main builds are the same, but the bootloader .mi4 files need to be signed differently. |
| 11:02:47 | linuxstb | (e200 vs e200r) |
| 11:04:28 | gartral | all running happily on my e250 |
| 11:04:53 | advcomp2019 | yea and i have not reinstalled vmware to this computer since i have not needed it on my laptop |
| 11:08:12 | | Join SliMM [0] (n=SliMM@89.120.198.250) |
| 11:08:35 | SliMM | hello |
| 11:08:54 | SliMM | is the __PCTOOL__ part of tagcahe working? |
| 11:08:54 | advcomp2019 | SliMM, hello |
| 11:12:53 | | Quit kachna (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) |
| 11:15:05 | B4gder | SliMM: make in tools/database seems to fail. what exactly are you asking? |
| 11:16:06 | advcomp2019 | linuxstb, i reinstalled the older bootloader via recovery and it is working.. plus i posted on that FS# |
| 11:16:30 | SliMM | B4gder: if I can ignore the parts that are in #ifndef __PCTOOL__ when using the code for a pc project |
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| 11:17:10 | linuxstb | SliMM: Yes, that's the idea of that define. |
| 11:17:23 | linuxstb | But it may not work... |
| 11:17:55 | linuxstb | I think there's also a flyspray task which tries to make independent building of the database code better. I'm not sure what state that is in though. |
| 11:22:45 | B4gder | now 'database' builds at least |
| 11:24:35 | | Quit rocko ("Leaving") |
| 11:26:05 | MTee | linuxstb : after parsing a rm file, with the decoder now known, what should happen ? it seems to me like we enter a DATA chunk, send its packets to be decoded, till we |
| 11:26:27 | linuxstb | MTee: Oops, I've just remembered I forgot to reply to that email... ;) |
| 11:26:34 | MTee | *till we're done with this chunk, and then go to the next DATA chunk and so on |
| 11:26:47 | MTee | linuxstb : never mind :) |
| 11:27:26 | linuxstb | I'm not sure of the answer though... Did my parser get as far as printing out the details (i.e. offset in file and length) of the data chunk(s) ? |
| 11:27:36 | MTee | yes |
| 11:28:24 | linuxstb | I think what I would do next is find an example file with an "easy" codec (like mp3 or ac3) and make the parser write the raw audio data to a file. You should then be able to play that file. |
| 11:29:42 | linuxstb | I seem to recall that realaudio files have some strange psuedo-encryption involving XORing the data with something. Looking at the source code of the RealMedia parser in ffmpeg (or I think, vlc) should help a lot. |
| 11:31:04 | | Part gartral |
| 11:32:28 | MTee | this is sort of my question ; should I loop through the chunks sending packets to the decoder, or should the decoder handle the rest of the process ? (sorry if it sounds stupid :) ) |
| 11:33:27 | linuxstb | Do you know how big these data chunks are? |
| 11:35:46 | linuxstb | But generally, the actual decoder will contain a function called something like "decode_frame()" which will take a pointer to a small amount of compressed audio, and a pointer to an output buffer, and decode that audio into the output buffer. |
| 11:36:42 | linuxstb | So the actual codec will first call the parser to get a pointer to the next data chunk, and then (probably repeatedly) call that decode_frame() function to decode the data. |
| 11:37:47 | MTee | I see, thanks a lot. |
| 11:39:01 | linuxstb | The codec then calls the Rockbox "pcmbuf_insert()" function to send the output data from decode_frame to the Rockbox DSP layer (resampling, equalizer, crossfeed etc), which then sends it to the DAC... |
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| 11:46:08 | MTee | is it possible to implement a lyrics viewer for the WPS ? |
| 11:46:29 | rasher | advcomp2019: Added an e200r bootloader |
| 11:46:54 | advcomp2019 | rasher, thanks |
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| 11:51:03 | linuxstb | MTee: Only if you add that code to Rockbox itself - it can't be done with a plugin (unless of course, you add plugin capability to the WPS...). However, there's a lyrics viewer patch on flyspray which implements a plugin which shows lyrics (i.e. it replaces the WPS) |
| 11:51:25 | linuxstb | (I hope that makes sense) |
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| 11:54:41 | MTee | linuxstb : yes it's clear. I was talking about adding the code not writing a plugin. Thanks |
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| 11:58:53 | linuxstb | You'll have two problems doing that: 1) Managing memory (i.e. where do you store the lyrics?) and 2) other Rockbox developers may not want lyrics support taking up code/RAM in the Rockbox core... |
| 11:59:34 | Unhelpful | linuxstb: what about doing it both ways - allowing a plugin to load and be displayed in a viewport in the WPS? |
| 11:59:41 | * | rasher sees there's a h10_5gb bootloader issue |
| 12:00 |
| 12:00:06 | linuxstb | Unhelpful: Yes, that idea has been mentioned a few times. No-one has implemented it though... |
| 12:00:16 | Unhelpful | solves the memory management problem, and the code bloat problem, as the bulk of the "new code" ends up in the plugin buffer. |
| 12:00:42 | Unhelpful | it seems like the way to do that, and lots of other "fancy things some few users think are needed" |
| 12:00:43 | linuxstb | This discussion always goes down the path of suggesting that the WPS itself becomes a plugin... |
| 12:01:07 | | Quit petur (Nick collision from services.) |
| 12:01:07 | linuxstb | How does it solve the memory management problem? Where do wps plugins live? |
| 12:01:11 | | Nick petur2 is now known as petur (n=petur@rockbox/developer/petur) |
| 12:01:51 | Unhelpful | linuxstb: they live in the plugin buffer. aside from very few special TSR plugins, you can't actually run a "regular" plugin while using wps anyway, right? |
| 12:02:12 | | Quit GodEater_ ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client") |
| 12:02:32 | linuxstb | No, but you can run plugins when playback is active. And wps plugins probably want to be running all the time. |
| 12:05:46 | | Quit robin0800 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 12:05:53 | MTee | what about a plugin which just detects the file being played and displays the lyrics accordingly ? not in a viewport in the WPS. |
| 12:07:00 | Unhelpful | why, to save load delay when you go to the WPS? i prefer the idea of displaying a plugin in a WPS viewport, anyway, to making the WPS itself a plugin - i think it's a nice balance, and that a limit of one "custom item" is reasonable |
| 12:07:36 | Unhelpful | also, a million "alternate WPS" plugins turns into a maintainence nightmare, since most are probably based on "normal" WPS |
| 12:08:09 | | Join GodEater_ [0] (i=c2cbc962@rockbox/staff/GodEater) |
| 12:08:32 | advcomp2019 | rasher, i found a bug on the e200r bootloader too |
| 12:08:37 | Llorean | Unhelpful: Displaying some plugins in a WPS viewport would mean that some WPSes could be a single fullscreen plugin viewport. |
| 12:08:50 | Llorean | But some plugins would have to better handle different screen sizes (or have a flag where they require fullscreen) |
| 12:09:35 | Unhelpful | Llorean: i don't really think we'd expect absolutely any plugin to work in a WPS viewport - clearly the ones that require input are no-go |
| 12:09:59 | GodEater_ | why isn't the USB stuff in the project news bit on the front page? Isn't it big enough? |
| 12:10:04 | Unhelpful | maybe they should use the plugin loader, and the plugin buffer, but have an entirely different magic in the header, or something? |
| 12:10:30 | Llorean | Unhelpful: I actually don't think input is the problem. The plugin's input would override the WPSes until it's closed. |
| 12:10:47 | advcomp2019 | if you plug in the sansa when it is off, it will turn on to rockbox but it will not mount it as a usb drive |
| 12:10:52 | * | Llorean imagines playing Gameboy games in a viewport while still being able to see playback info, for example |
| 12:11:33 | Unhelpful | ah, that's not really what i was thinking of at all, i was thinking more "a way for people to put visualizaton, lyrics, etc into WPS" |
| 12:11:49 | Llorean | My thought *started* with visualization, but went on to "why not everything else?" |
| 12:12:00 | Llorean | You could open the text editor, scroll through lyrics, then close it, etc. |
| 12:12:03 | Unhelpful | though, i suppose the same code could support both - a header flag could mark ones that shouldn't steal input |
| 12:12:18 | Llorean | A question is how to close ones that don't steal input. |
| 12:12:31 | Llorean | I'd suggest that "visualization" plugins still steal input, they just implement *most* of the playback controls. |
| 12:13:54 | Unhelpful | that might be better, but that means putting keymaps for the playback controls in a bunch of plugins. i was rather thinking that the WPS would specify the plugin to load, and you don't interact with it, which would all work fine for visualizations... |
| 12:14:44 | Llorean | Unhelpful: Yeah, but you could just have a standard visualization plugin header or something. |
| 12:15:34 | Unhelpful | you mean to handle the keymaps? yes, that might work |
| 12:15:34 | gevaerts | GodEater_: Zagor wasn't awake :) |
| 12:15:55 | * | Zagor rubs eyes |
| 12:16:22 | Llorean | Unhelpful: Yeah, to handle the keymaps. Of course it's also possible just to have the "Menu" button cancel plugins on first press so you're back to the normal WPS, then bring up the menu on second press when plugins are/were running |
| 12:21:29 | Zagor | do we have a useful wiki page that lists which targets have pp502x ? |
| 12:22:14 | rasher | DeviceChart? |
| 12:23:08 | Zagor | that's the one I was thinking of. it's not terribly newbie friendly though :-) |
| 12:23:35 | gevaerts | Zagor: look at the files touched by r20105 |
| 12:24:04 | Zagor | gevaerts: yeah I know, but I need something that explains to users which targets got this. for the front page. |
| 12:24:09 | linuxstb | We have a PortalPlayer wiki page I think - they could be added there. |
| 12:24:25 | Llorean | Zagor: I posted a list of targets in the forum |
| 12:24:27 | Zagor | maybe I should just list them all |
| 12:24:32 | Zagor | Llorean: ah, link? |
| 12:24:40 | Llorean | Zagor: http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=20752.0 |
| 12:25:06 | Zagor | I'll link to that |
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| 12:41:45 | * | linuxstb reads http://www.mcselec.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=92&option=com_phpshop&Itemid=1 |
| 12:42:34 | Llorean | They can resell PIDs? |
| 12:42:46 | | Join gartral [0] (n=Gartral@adsl-75-33-69-103.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) |
| 12:42:54 | linuxstb | I don't think so, but they seem to... |
| 12:43:00 | Llorean | I was just gonna suggest we disable USB again, and tell people we need a VID if we really want to do it "right" and run a funding drive. =P |
| 12:43:25 | linuxstb | That's not such a bad idea... $2000 isn't a huge amount of money for a community of our size. |
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| 12:43:47 | linuxstb | I would expect 200 people could donate $10 |
| 12:43:48 | * | GodEater_ wonders what's in the rockbox fund currently |
| 12:43:59 | Llorean | Yeah |
| 12:44:13 | Llorean | The donation part was serious, the "hold USB for ransom" not. :) |
| 12:44:32 | Llorean | That's why I was asking if the $2000 was a one-time fee (if I read it right, basically) as it doesn't seem like an unattainable goal |
| 12:45:07 | linuxstb | Hmm, it seems to be $2000 for two years - http://www.usb.org/developers/vendor/ |
| 12:45:28 | GodEater_ | boo hiss |
| 12:45:33 | Llorean | linuxstb: Read the last paragraph |
| 12:45:44 | Llorean | If you wish to purchase a VID without licensing the logo rights, that's a $2000 _purchase_ |
| 12:46:01 | linuxstb | Ah yes, the license appears to just be for the logo... |
| 12:46:14 | Llorean | The question is "do they mean by purchase what we'd think they mean" since it mentions no term. |
| 12:47:13 | linuxstb | But this does seem the "correct" thing to do, especially if we implement usb modes the OF doesn't. |
| 12:47:32 | * | linuxstb wonders what gevaerts thinks |
| 12:47:40 | Llorean | I wouldn't want to bother if we just have to ask for money every year / two years to maintain it. |
| 12:48:04 | Llorean | But if we really can purchase a VID permanently (which honestly, makes sense since revoking them would cause infinite chaos in the long term) we probably should try to raise the money |
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| 12:48:14 | | Join moos [0] (i=Mustapha@rockbox/staff/moos) |
| 12:48:58 | linuxstb | This is the application form - it certainly looks like a one-time payment - http://www.usb.org/developers/vendor/VID_Only_Form_withCCAuth_02042009.pdf |
| 12:49:20 | Llorean | I don't know how you *would* revoke VIDs |
| 12:49:24 | B4gder | "A one time processing fee" it says |
| 12:49:28 | linuxstb | I guess there's the technical issue that there is no "Rockbox" company. |
| 12:49:52 | B4gder | we could use a proxy company we trust |
| 12:50:00 | linuxstb | Haxx? |
| 12:50:03 | Llorean | We could probably just contact and ask if a "Company" is necessary, or if that's just a field for the ID |
| 12:50:05 | B4gder | like that, yes |
| 12:50:34 | linuxstb | B4gder: Do you think this is worthwhile? |
| 12:51:11 | B4gder | I'm not sure |
| 12:51:57 | B4gder | I mean I'd be fun and nice, but is it 2000USD nice? |
| 12:52:13 | B4gder | s/I'd/it'd |
| 12:52:27 | linuxstb | I think it should be "extra" money - i.e. as Llorean suggests, a fund-raising effort just for this purpose. |
| 12:52:30 | Llorean | We'd need to come up with a list of things it could/would allow us (and other projects interacting with us in the future) to more easily do. |
| 12:52:41 | gartral | well, just out of pure wonder, what would buying a VID offer that we dont already have? |
| 12:52:42 | Llorean | What hurdles does using the original VIDs present for us? |
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| 12:54:05 | Llorean | gartral: In one sense, it's just an issue of "doing it right". Arguably there's nothing we can do with one that we can't do without one. |
| 12:54:41 | * | linuxstb tries to find the previous discussion about this in the IRC logs |
| 12:54:42 | GodEater_ | well one issue is that iPods don't work 100% properly with iTunes right ? Since we don't support the extra SCSI commands. |
| 12:54:50 | Llorean | But having Rockboxed players identify as Rockboxed players immediately can allow software interacting with it an easier job of knowing if Rockbox is installed (and currently running / providing the USB connection) so if we have special USB functionality it's easier to know when it can be used. |
| 12:56:28 | linuxstb | http://www.rockbox.org/irc/rockbox-20071012.txt starting at 15.11.06 |
| 12:56:29 | gartral | interesting side note, the "no sansa detected" glitch with rbutil does not show at all after 20105 (in rockbox only) |
| 13:00 |
| 13:00:49 | Llorean | GodEater_: So having our own ID would break iTunes support completely, but we could add an "iTunes compatibility mode" option which is described as 'incomplete' until/unless we add the other magic. |
| 13:02:42 | GodEater_ | yep |
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| 13:03:20 | Casainho | hello :-) |
| 13:03:27 | Casainho | can someone explain me the "pcm_play_data_start(unsigned char *start, size_t size)" ? |
| 13:04:08 | Casainho | When does Rockbox call it? everytime audio fifo buffer is full? |
| 13:04:11 | linuxstb | I was mainly thinking about when we add new USB features - e.g. usb audio or HID. Would new IDs be needed for that, or can the same IDs be safely used for lots of different modes? |
| 13:04:40 | Llorean | The same IDs can surely be used, but it'd probably make everything easier all around if we presented different ones. |
| 13:05:22 | linuxstb | Casainho: What fifo buffer? |
| 13:06:05 | Casainho | linuxstb: well, the *start |
| 13:06:43 | Llorean | And it would be an optional donation drive. We could present, realistically, that buying a USB VID is non-essential but something we'd "like" to do (in part because it's kinda the 'right' thing to do, and in part because it does make the project more professional in outward appearance and more flexible) and let people decide for themselves whether to donate or not. Then if we don't have $2000 within, say, a year we just roll it into the R |
| 13:09:10 | | Quit Casainho ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.6/2009011913]") |
| 13:10:04 | gartral | Llorean: you got $10 from me! |
| 13:11:19 | linuxstb | Has anyone tested Rockbox USB with itunes yet? |
| 13:11:23 | Llorean | I guess the question is more, do people object to the idea of us actually "requesting" donations for something like this? It's nonessential, but nice to have. |
| 13:11:38 | Llorean | linuxstb: We had one report of iTunes not showing the iPod, but MacOS showing it specifically as an iPod still. |
| 13:11:53 | linuxstb | Llorean: I think it all depends on what the IDs will bring to Rockbox - I'm waiting for gevaerts... |
| 13:12:36 | Llorean | linuxstb: I think the only thing they "give" us that we cannot do in some other way is forcing applications not to mistakenly identify us as their player. |
| 13:13:07 | Llorean | Everything else I'd imagine could be done despite original VID/PID by way of some other channel of interrogation. |
| 13:14:34 | Llorean | I think if it was really "worth" $2000, we'd be discussing whether or not to use Rockbox fund funds on it (if they were available in that quantity) |
| 13:18:52 | B4gder | google supposedly will pay that sum for each gsoc year we've participated... |
| 13:19:05 | | Join _lifeless [0] (n=lifeless@89.20.118.141) |
| 13:23:50 | gartral | and what about UIDs? |
| 13:24:08 | linuxstb | UIDs? |
| 13:24:34 | gartral | PID* |
| 13:24:45 | gartral | sorry |
| 13:25:20 | linuxstb | We would buy a "vendor ID", which then gives us 65536 (or maybe slight less...) product IDs to choose from. |
| 13:25:20 | B4gder | what about them? |
| 13:25:24 | gartral | but its it possible to reuse those and use a rockbox VID? |
| 13:25:36 | gartral | ohh, nvm |
| 13:25:53 | gartral | i didnt understand how it worked |
| 13:26:46 | B4gder | well, we could also re-sell PIDs like that other company ;-) |
| 13:27:20 | Llorean | B4gder: Well, there might be Rockbox hardware in the future... |
| 13:27:49 | B4gder | yes, but 64K pids are a lot, I'm sure we can manage with a subset of them |
| 13:28:09 | gartral | and i'm just curious how accessories would be handled.... |
| 13:28:16 | linuxstb | The application form says we can't resell though... |
| 13:28:31 | B4gder | isn't that for the vid? |
| 13:30:00 | Llorean | From the form, it actually sounds like PIDs can't be resold, rather than VIDs |
| 13:33:13 | | Join nazir [0] (n=opera@bartek.tu.kielce.pl) |
| 13:33:27 | gevaerts | B4gder: I wouldn't recommend reselling PIDs. The USB IF tends to frown on that, and I suspect that it's one of the ways you *can* lose your VID |
| 13:33:32 | Llorean | I think the idea is that the VID/PID combo is "one item", if you transfer the VID it comes with the PIDs and vice versa. |
| 13:33:56 | flux | gevaerts, but how do you really lose a VID? who would want to reuse a VID that's been used by someone else? |
| 13:34:14 | flux | just keep using it, extremely unlikely anything will collide |
| 13:34:16 | B4gder | flux: want? I'm sure you get one assigned |
| 13:34:32 | flux | b4gder, and perhaps they'd be extremely pissed at that |
| 13:34:34 | Llorean | B4gder: Yeah, but you would be upset if you were assigned a VID in use on dozens of legacy devices. |
| 13:34:37 | B4gder | "here's your VID sir, enjoy" |
| 13:34:49 | B4gder | you would certainly, yes |
| 13:34:57 | flux | "well, that's great, I'll pick my own VID thankyouverymuch!" and the VID system would collapse :) |
| 13:35:23 | Llorean | gevaerts: Since you're here - any thoughts on pros/cons of having our own VID? |
| 13:35:34 | gevaerts | Some people can choose their own VID. I'm pretty sure that the one Intel has was not just the next in the sequence |
| 13:35:36 | flux | I don't see why they would have a reason to get upset by someone selling PIDs. in a business, 2k USD is not that much, it is doubtful it is that great business for them anyway? |
| 13:36:00 | gevaerts | flux: whether they have a reason or not doesn't matter. Historically they *have* been upset |
| 13:36:27 | bombardier | has anybody noticed that fuze OF crashes if you try to delete file while there is .rockbox directory present? shall we report this bug to sansa? :) |
| 13:37:07 | B4gder | bombardier: "sorry, no support with rockbox installed" ;-) |
| 13:37:56 | gevaerts | Llorean: pro: it's cleaner, and we have no risk of conflicts with host-side software (not just itunes. Drivers tend to have lists with devices that need special treatment due to bugs). con: the price |
| 13:40:28 | Llorean | What would happen if we just picked an unused VID and went with it? |
| 13:40:57 | gevaerts | we risk future conflicts |
| 13:41:14 | gartral | i would think all would go well until someone gets that VID assigned too theem, and we his conflicts |
| 13:41:22 | gevaerts | I really prefer to use the OF PID/VID to any "shady" tricks |
| 13:41:23 | BigBambi | and pissing off people that matter? |
| 13:41:30 | gartral | s// theem/them |
| 13:42:11 | BigBambi | gevaerts: And forgetting the cost for a moment, you would prefer buying a VID to using the OF ones? |
| 13:43:08 | gevaerts | BigBambi: if we forget the cost, clearly yes. |
| 13:43:35 | BigBambi | gevaerts: Cool, I wasn't sure if there were any other downsides |
| 13:43:49 | Llorean | gevaerts: I'm not sure just picking one *is* shady, really. I mean, I'd prefer to buy one, but if there's an empty one I'm not really sure I agree that it's particularly wrong to say "we're going to identify ourselves as this, at least until a problem arises". |
| 13:44:22 | BigBambi | no licensing or other issues? |
| 13:45:15 | Llorean | What license? |
| 13:45:30 | BigBambi | I don't know, that's why I asked |
| 13:46:03 | BigBambi | I didn't know if using them without 'permission' would get some USB licensing body down on you or something |
| 13:46:23 | gevaerts | Llorean: *now* it's probably not a problem. If we ever want to deal with the USB IF directly, I can't imagine this being happy about it |
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| 13:46:37 | Llorean | gevaerts: This is true. |
| 13:46:51 | Llorean | Then again, arguably they really ought to let us buy a number from them in the future to clear up any problems. |
| 13:47:01 | Llorean | If they don't, they're just encouraging people to ignore them and maintain their own community VID list. |
| 13:47:11 | Llorean | Since if you ever do it "wrong" you're not allowed to fix it. |
| 13:47:11 | gevaerts | Maybe we're better off finding a cheap PID reseller. That's against *their* contract, but we can't help that |
| 13:47:32 | Llorean | I think if we're going to spend money, we at least ought to *try* to get a VID. |
| 13:47:41 | gevaerts | Depends on the price |
| 13:47:58 | | Part nazir |
| 13:48:06 | gevaerts | i.e. if we could get say 50 PIDs from such a reseller for $100, I'd seriously consider that |
| 13:48:34 | Llorean | The one linked by linuxstb was a bit more than $10 / PID |
| 13:48:52 | gevaerts | But anyway, we haven't seen any practical problems with reusing the OFs ids yet, so I'd just do nothing for now |
| 13:49:08 | Llorean | I think we'd probably want $5/PID or less, from someone we expect to stay around in case we need more, if we really wanted to buy just PIDs |
| 13:49:18 | gevaerts | Llorean: $10 per PID is way too much for us. If we use our own, we need a separate one per device |
| 13:52:27 | Llorean | gevaerts: I'd want to see evidence that the PID reseller had the necessary written permission too |
| 13:52:34 | Llorean | I'd hate to buy PIDs just to find out their VID got revoked. |
| 13:52:37 | linuxstb | gevaerts: Do you know how WIndows for example deals with usb drivers? i.e. is there one driver per vid/pid pair, or one per ID/class combination or ... |
| 13:52:56 | gevaerts | linuxstb: yes :) (i.e. all of them) |
| 13:54:05 | linuxstb | So we could simply add new USB class drivers to Rockbox, and Windows should be happy? (i.e. not interfere with existing drivers for that device)? |
| 13:54:58 | gevaerts | It *should*, but I imaging that VID/PID specific drivers get priority |
| 13:56:50 | linuxstb | I'm wondering if this is causing problems with the Beast - using the same IDs for both MTP and UMS. Some people have reported that Windows doesn't detect their Beast in MTP mode. |
| 13:57:37 | gevaerts | could be... |
| 13:57:52 | | Quit Kanzar ("I'm a traitor to the cause, a hero without applause~") |
| 13:59:28 | linuxstb | My view is that it just seems the "right thing" to use our own IDs, and I think $2000 could be raised by special donations. |
| 14:00 |
| 14:01:16 | * | B4gder agrees |
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| 14:02:26 | Llorean | My view is *exactly* linuxstb's stated view just there. |
| 14:03:14 | Llorean | Also - first draft letter to USB-IF http://pastebin.ca/1347743 |
| 14:04:24 | Llorean | It definitely needs some polishing in the wording, but it's the points I'm bringing up that's most important right now. |
| 14:05:28 | B4gder | Llorean: I think the first point needs to point out slightly clearer that we've _replaced_ the original usb software that has a VID/PID pair we reuse |
| 14:05:39 | gevaerts | Llorean: I would cut the " probably least likely to be answered positively" bit |
| 14:06:14 | gevaerts | Also, maybe explain what rockbox is a bit more (which would help clarifying B4gder's point) |
| 14:06:39 | | Quit fyrestorm (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 14:08:42 | gartral | possibly add the What Is Rockbox block of the FAQ? |
| 14:08:48 | * | Llorean posts an update. http://pastebin.ca/1347751 |
| 14:08:55 | Llorean | gartral: Don't want to make it too long. |
| 14:09:31 | linuxstb | Are there many other open source projects which would use USB ids? I can imagine hobbyists building their own usb devices wanting one-off IDs, but do we want to go down that road? |
| 14:09:41 | linuxstb | s/many/any/ ? |
| 14:09:44 | Llorean | I've also changed "allow them to avoid having to..." to "allow them to avoid choosing to..." since the idea of them having to makes USB-IF sound like the bad guys, while OSS projects choosing to makes it sound much more neutral |
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| 14:14:08 | linuxstb | Llorean: I would say something about Rockbox not changing the USB behaviour on devices with hardware bridges, but completely replacing the implementation, and adding new features on the devices with software USB. This is the reason we want to use our own IDs - because we are completely replacing the USB implementation on those devices. |
| 14:15:08 | B4gder | possibly usb-if would also consider it to be a new vendor when we have a new stack, thus it would fit how these things are normally done |
| 14:15:36 | B4gder | but then replacing usb stacks are probably not that that common |
| 14:15:45 | linuxstb | Maybe that's simply the first question to ask them - do they think we should use our own IDs in this situation? |
| 14:18:09 | | Quit jaykay (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 14:19:54 | B4gder | J-23: on the sansas it was found out that the usb core was identical to the one in imx31 which has docs, so a similar thing _could_ be done for the 3525 |
| 14:20:06 | B4gder | but for this we already know who made the usb block |
| 14:21:58 | * | Llorean updates again, with a new ending to the first paragraph and new beginning to the second - http://pastebin.ca/1347757 |
| 14:24:28 | B4gder | looks fine to me |
| 14:26:04 | Llorean | The only disadvantage to this is that we're running up to them waving a flag saying "We're using other companies' VIDs." I don't really imagine that'll be much a problem beyond a probably worst case of them saying "you shouldn't do that, tsk tsk" at us. |
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| 14:27:11 | B4gder | yeah |
| 14:27:25 | B4gder | "want are you gonna do? bleed on me?!" |
| 14:27:38 | B4gder | argh, typing! |
| 14:27:42 | * | B4gder hides |
| 14:28:25 | B4gder | you think we can get 0xdead ? ;-) |
| 14:28:45 | Llorean | Anyone have any objections then, or should I send it off into the great aether? |
| 14:29:12 | B4gder | 0xdead/0xbeef is gonna be a great pair |
| 14:29:14 | gartral | they should thank us for coming forth and trying to do this honestly and right! |
| 14:30:17 | gevaerts | Llorean: go for it! |
| 14:31:22 | * | Llorean will give about five minutes in case someone's not looking at the channel, then if no holds, it's off. |
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| 14:32:25 | * | GodEater_ thinks we should go for 0xc0ed/0xbabe |
| 14:33:04 | * | gartral thinks they *may* see past the perverse side-intention there... |
| 14:33:05 | * | Llorean wonders if 0xc0d3 or 0xc0de is taken. |
| 14:33:18 | Llorean | Well, we get *ALL* the PIDs that come with the VID |
| 14:33:39 | B4gder | http://www.linux-usb.org/usb.ids |
| 14:33:49 | B4gder | but I don't know how (in)complete that is |
| 14:34:09 | Llorean | At least it doesn't have c0ed, c03d, c0de or c0d3 VIDs. |
| 14:34:18 | Llorean | Or dead for that matter |
| 14:34:36 | B4gder | 0xc0ca/0xc01a ? |
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| 14:34:47 | linuxstb | Llorean: I'm changing your letter slightly... |
| 14:34:51 | * | Llorean doesn't want to *invite* suits. |
| 14:34:54 | Llorean | linuxstb: Oh? |
| 14:36:11 | gartral | nor d3ad |
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| 14:50:36 | Llorean | linuxstb: What change? |
| 14:52:33 | linuxstb | Llorean: I'm basicallyl rewriting it in a slightly different way. Feel free to ignore when I'm done though if you prefer your draft... |
| 14:53:34 | Llorean | Ah, since you said "slightly" I was just trying to figure out if it was something you'd pastebinned and forgotten to link (maybe busy?) or something. If you're still writing that's fine, sorry. |
| 15:00 |
| 15:00:25 | linuxstb | i'm not sure about the whole "open source community" bit of the letter. Thinking about it, that may just confuse the issue - how do you define "open source"? Also, there are many devices running open source software, but the hardware vendor assigns the ID. I think Rockbox is quite unique in replacing the software in usb devices. |
| 15:00:59 | | Quit CaptainKewl ("( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: www.XLhost.de )") |
| 15:01:16 | linuxstb | And then it raises the question of who is responsible for assigning product IDs for this "vendor" ? I doubt the USB-IF would want that job... |
| 15:01:39 | Llorean | Well, PIDs are always assigned "internally" anyway, right? |
| 15:01:48 | Llorean | So whoever the "owner" of the VID would be would handle that. |
| 15:02:25 | linuxstb | I know - but who would that owner be? You're suggesting Rockbox becomes that organisation? |
| 15:03:15 | Llorean | Well, the idea that came up in -community was that if it were possible for them to be made widely available, instead of just used for us, maybe HAXX would be interested in purchasing a VID for the purpose of making available to OSS software projects. |
| 15:03:31 | Llorean | That'd still be up to HAXX of course, but it'd be another possible alternative. |
| 15:04:20 | linuxstb | But thinking from USB-IF's point of view, I don't think vendor/product IDs relate to software, but to specific pieces of hardware. |
| 15:04:48 | linuxstb | And even in Rockbox's case, do we want unofficial builds using our IDs? |
| 15:05:03 | Llorean | If that's the case, we shouldn't really be applying for a VID anyway, and they'll probably tell us that. |
| 15:05:22 | Llorean | Well, unofficial builds could already be doing whatever they want with IDs now. |
| 15:06:57 | linuxstb | I think that's what we need to ask - my letter (I've got stuck at the end...) basically just tries to explain our situtation, and ask them what the "right thing" is to do. So I'm thinking that maybe we don't want to offer too many solutions, but rather just see what they say. |
| 15:07:15 | | Part gartral |
| 15:09:33 | gevaerts | If people feel bored, finding a datasheet for the "AMD 5536 UDC" USB device controller would be helpful |
| 15:11:46 | linuxstb | But this is what I've written so far - http://pastebin.ca/1347796 |
| 15:14:20 | | Part LinusN |
| 15:14:34 | Llorean | A few minor changes (typos, change "plan" possibly to "expect to" instead) but other than that, I definitely like yours better than mine. |
| 15:14:52 | GodEater_ | and "offer" to "offers" |
| 15:14:55 | LambdaCalculus37 | I think it gets the message across very well. |
| 15:14:59 | GodEater_ | me too |
| 15:15:04 | * | GodEater_ votes for linuxstb's |
| 15:15:12 | * | LambdaCalculus37 also votes for linuxstb's |
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| 15:27:50 | advcomp2019 | gevaerts, i think i found some info for that but maybe not but i am not sure |
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| 15:29:34 | * | freqmod_gq sees that the linuxstb letter don't touch the issue of using a rocbox vid for multiple oss projects |
| 15:29:50 | linuxstb | freqmod_gq: Can you name another project that would need them? |
| 15:30:11 | freqmod_gq | maybe ipodlinux |
| 15:30:28 | linuxstb | Unlikely IMO - no kernel hacking has happened there for years... |
| 15:31:02 | linuxstb | (afaik - I may be wrong...) |
| 15:31:50 | linuxstb | I'm just sure if we want to confuse the issue by suggesting that, at least not in the first contact. |
| 15:31:56 | linuxstb | ^not sure |
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| 15:33:40 | freqmod_gq | ok |
| 15:34:20 | Llorean | Probably best not to, really. It's something that can come up later, once we know what our options etc are. |
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| 15:40:06 | advcomp2019 | gevaerts, i do not know if this helps but it talks about that i think and it is a porting guide: http://www.amd.com/files/connectivitysolutions/geode/geode_lx/40680B_lx_cs5536_xromportgd.pdf |
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| 15:55:20 | Llorean | linuxstb: Should I patch up the small typos and go ahead and send it, or would you rather send it being the actual author? |
| 15:55:54 | linuxstb | No, I'm happy for you to send it. |
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| 15:57:34 | linuxstb | I'm not sure why you don't like the word "plan" though... |
| 15:58:42 | Llorean | Well, I didn't think we really "planned" stuff, and I definitely didn't know we had plans for specific features to be added. |
| 15:58:55 | Llorean | So I just wanted to change the tone slightly to sorta indicate "we don't expect it's unlikely at all not to eventually see these" |
| 15:58:59 | Llorean | Rather than "we're working on them now" |
| 15:59:14 | Llorean | But I'm more or less indifferent about it. I was gonna leave "plan" in since nobody'd commented on my proposed change to it. :) |
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| 15:59:59 | linuxstb | I just think you can "plan" (i.e. intend) to do things without having any fixed timescales... |
| 16:00 |
| 16:00:48 | Llorean | I just didn't know we intended to. |
| 16:02:00 | linuxstb | gevaerts has mentioned it, and I think it's inevitable that if he doesn't do it, others will. i.e. it's one of those "yes, we would like it if someone does the work" kind of things. |
| 16:06:32 | Llorean | Alright, I've tweaked some of the wording a little (mostly just because I thought it sounded better), fixed a few typos (offer/offers, etc) and did remove "plans" just because I like the way it sounds better this new way. http://pastebin.ca/1347828 |
| 16:07:37 | gevaerts | Llorean: do we actually need to mention those older devices? |
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| 16:08:50 | Llorean | gevaerts: My original thought with mentioning them was "well there are some devices where we absolutely cannot change the VID/PID" but I don't think it's essential to mention them. |
| 16:09:06 | gevaerts | I think it could actually be confusing |
| 16:09:28 | linuxstb | I would say "In some cases" at the start of the sentence, not the end. |
| 16:10:22 | Llorean | Should we drop the USB<->ATA mention then? |
| 16:10:25 | | Quit woyciesjes (Client Quit) |
| 16:10:39 | linuxstb | Yes, I agree it doesn't add anything. |
| 16:10:42 | Llorean | Alright |
| 16:10:51 | Llorean | Both of those are fixed, then |
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| 16:15:48 | linuxstb | BTW, does anyone know the state of USB on telechips? |
| 16:16:34 | gevaerts | It "works", but it's not very well tested I think |
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| 16:20:52 | * | Llorean is ready to send the email. |
| 16:20:54 | Llorean | Any last-minute objections? |
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| 16:22:53 | LambdaCalculus37 | None. |
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| 16:27:49 | * | Llorean clicks send. |
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| 16:45:41 | rasher | Any idea why the E200R wouldn't connect USB if booting with USB connected? I thought the E200R used the same main Rockbox image as the E200? |
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| 16:56:12 | linuxstb | rasher: What happens? |
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| 16:56:36 | rasher | linuxstb: The bootloader boots Rockbox, but a connection isn't established |
| 16:56:54 | rasher | Seems to me like the bootloader did its job |
| 16:56:55 | phill | rasher: on my E200 (non-R) USB doesn't connect on boot if Start Screen is set to Resume Playback. |
| 16:57:17 | rasher | Ah, that might be the key here - advcomp2019? |
| 16:57:17 | phill | rasher: if set to something else it works fine |
| 16:57:34 | rasher | Nice catch |
| 16:59:19 | rasher | advcomp2019: What is your start screen set to? |
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| 16:59:38 | advcomp2019 | rasher, have to look hold on |
| 16:59:40 | rasher | gevaerts: Shouldn't this be fixed? |
| 17:00 |
| 17:00:01 | gevaerts | rasher: probably. What's the FS number? ;) |
| 17:00:17 | rasher | None, yet |
| 17:00:22 | advcomp2019 | rasher, the now playing screen |
| 17:00:50 | rasher | advcomp2019: Try changing that, then retrying turning on by inserting usb cable |
| 17:01:01 | advcomp2019 | ok will do |
| 17:01:40 | rasher | Same happens for my e280 |
| 17:01:52 | rasher | gevaerts: Do you want me to file a bug? |
| 17:02:15 | | Quit Zagor ("Client exiting") |
| 17:02:26 | gevaerts | rasher: I think so, yes. We don't want to forget things |
| 17:02:45 | rasher | Will do |
| 17:03:09 | advcomp2019 | rasher, i changed it to main menu and it works fine |
| 17:03:15 | rasher | Excellent |
| 17:03:30 | rasher | So this isn't a bootloader issue - please add that to FS #9955 :) |
| 17:04:22 | kugel | arggg |
| 17:04:23 | linuxstb | rasher: Are your bootloaders the current svn versions, or have you changed the usb detection behaviour? (or did someone change that in svn without me noticing)? |
| 17:04:37 | | Quit gregorovius () |
| 17:04:52 | rasher | linuxstb: SVN always had this behavior when USE_ROCKBOX_USB was enabled |
| 17:05:11 | rasher | So they're plain SVN |
| 17:05:21 | linuxstb | Ah, OK. So enabling that define changed the bootloaders... |
| 17:05:27 | rasher | Indeed |
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| 17:05:35 | linuxstb | Bootloader changes by the back door... |
| 17:06:43 | gevaerts | That's been there since r16279 |
| 17:06:54 | * | gevaerts blames Zagor ;) |
| 17:06:58 | linuxstb | ;) |
| 17:07:06 | advcomp2019 | rasher, i added that.. i hope it sounds good ;) |
| 17:07:16 | evilnick_6 | How can I change the bootloader on my Sansa E280 to test the new ones? |
| 17:07:53 | linuxstb | "sansapatcher -a bootloader-xxx.sansa" |
| 17:08:15 | evilnick_6 | linuxstb: Does that need admin rights on Windows? |
| 17:08:24 | linuxstb | rasher: New sansapatcher/ipodpatcher builds will be needed to... |
| 17:08:30 | linuxstb | evilnick_6: Yes, I think so. |
| 17:08:49 | rasher | linuxstb: aw crud, there are bootloader-*.sansa files? Didn't include those :\ |
| 17:09:04 | Llorean | Aren't they .mi4? |
| 17:09:08 | rasher | linuxstb: Yeah, let's hold off on that until we've tested the bootloaders though |
| 17:09:10 | Llorean | Or did we change that at some point? |
| 17:10:07 | linuxstb | Oops, yes, they are probably .mi4 |
| 17:10:10 | Llorean | gevaerts: If we presented multiple USB modes, do you think that'd best be done directly through the core (settings somewhere) or possibly by way of some Advanced USB plugin that let you configure behaviour that replaced the standard USB when the plugin was running? |
| 17:10:20 | * | linuxstb is confused with mkamsboot |
| 17:11:05 | linuxstb | So "sansapatcher -a pp5022.mi4" or whatever they are called. |
| 17:11:10 | rasher | gevaerts: FS #9957 |
| 17:13:25 | rasher | Do we release Sansa/ipodpatcher with the release, or just once we're ready? |
| 17:13:37 | gevaerts | Llorean: I expect that we'll want plugins once we have a lot of class drivers |
| 17:14:29 | rasher | advcomp2019: So the E200R bootloader works? |
| 17:14:59 | advcomp2019 | rasher, yep |
| 17:15:11 | linuxstb | rasher: I think we can release at any time - they're independent of specific releases. It would be useful to have them no later than the release though. |
| 17:15:30 | rasher | Righto |
| 17:15:35 | linuxstb | Or maybe it would confuse things to have them before 3.2... |
| 17:16:08 | rasher | That's what I was thinking |
| 17:16:16 | linuxstb | Yes, I've just caught up with you. |
| 17:16:33 | linuxstb | But has anything changed with ipodpatcher or the ipod bootloaders? |
| 17:16:54 | rasher | Possibly not. I wasn't aware they didn't have USB detection |
| 17:17:01 | rasher | How about the H10? |
| 17:17:03 | linuxstb | So maybe we can just forget those. |
| 17:17:28 | linuxstb | I'm not sure... |
| 17:18:40 | rasher | It seems to use the main-pp.c bootloader - that would put it alongside the e200, right? |
| 17:18:44 | | Part domonoky |
| 17:18:55 | Llorean | I'd rather have the bootloader "release" before even the feature freeze for 3.2, that way all people testing the 3.2 build can be doing it on current bootloaders. |
| 17:19:15 | linuxstb | Llorean: But then there's the problem of new installs of 3.1 |
| 17:19:19 | Llorean | I don't think it'd be *too* confusing to have them released early as long as we say "In anticipation of the 3.2 firmware release, we've released a new round of bootloaders for these targets: " |
| 17:19:32 | Llorean | linuxstb: Would they harm 3.1 installs? They shouldn't. |
| 17:19:40 | rasher | Let's do it at the time of the freeze, then? |
| 17:20:04 | rasher | It'd just take away "insert usb cable to turn on and connect" functionality from 3.1 installs |
| 17:20:36 | rasher | Not the end of the world |
| 17:21:07 | linuxstb | No, but the other way around causes less damage - i.e. releasing 3.2 first, then the new bootloaders. |
| 17:21:15 | Llorean | rasher: That's only one a couple players anyway, the Sansas I think |
| 17:21:52 | linuxstb | I just think that we need to try and keep the stable builds stable... I agree it's not a big deal though. |
| 17:22:19 | rasher | I'm increasingly of the opinion that we shouldn't have rbutil/*patcher releases other than at release time |
| 17:22:50 | rasher | But have an area for pre-release versions of them, if development makes it necessary |
| 17:23:07 | linuxstb | We could even change the version numbers, so everything has the version number of the main Rockbox build. |
| 17:23:37 | | Quit kugel (Nick collision from services.) |
| 17:23:41 | | Join kugel [0] (n=kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel) |
| 17:25:20 | n1s | rasher: i think the tracker is fine as a place to keep test versions |
| 17:26:10 | | Quit einhirn ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org") |
| 17:26:15 | rasher | We need bootloader testers for Iriver H10 (20GB), M:Robe 100 and C200 - FS #9955 |
| 17:27:06 | | Join MethoS- [0] (n=lem@host-091-097-244-015.ewe-ip-backbone.de) |
| 17:27:13 | Llorean | linuxstb: I'd like it very much if everything was version numbered in sync with the main build even if it meant rebuilding old bootloaders with new version numbers each time just so there was a "synced" version. |
| 17:27:31 | | Quit avis (Remote closed the connection) |
| 17:28:35 | n1s | Llorean: i don't think releasing new bootloaders with every release if noting has changed is good |
| 17:28:41 | linuxstb | Maybe we don't need to change the version numbers of the bootloader itself, just sansapatcher/ipodpatcher/rbutil. Doing a full range of bootloader testing every 3 months could get tiresome. |
| 17:33:45 | Llorean | What we need, at least, is a single page people can go to and see if their bootloader is up to date. A list of current bootloader versions (especially for players where rbutil can't check) |
| 17:33:47 | rasher | Rebuilding the patchers seems good enough |
| 17:38:17 | | Join bmbl [0] (n=Miranda@unaffiliated/bmbl) |
| 17:39:03 | kugel | so, I have this sorting patch done in Llorean way now |
| 17:39:10 | | Quit gevaerts (Nick collision from services.) |
| 17:39:19 | | Join gevaerts [0] (n=fg@rockbox/developer/gevaerts) |
| 17:39:37 | kugel | looks a bit weird when you choose between "1 2 03 10" and "03 1 10 2", but it works |
| 17:46:01 | rasher | I think there should be some text to make clear that those are example sortings |
| 17:49:06 | | Join SirFunk_ [0] (n=Sir@208-15-25-145.netsync.net) |
| 17:49:14 | | Join avis [0] (n=ident@pdpc/supporter/student/avis) |
| 17:50:24 | kugel | I think it's obvious that these are examples. |
| 17:50:43 | kugel | and if it confuses people, there's always the manual |
| 17:51:05 | rasher | True |
| 17:52:12 | kugel | the menu is called "sort leading numbers", and the options are a series of numbers; really, that's pretty obvious to me |
| 17:54:32 | | Join MethoS-- [0] (n=lem@host-091-097-244-144.ewe-ip-backbone.de) |
| 17:55:43 | * | kugel likes to commit http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/9953 . objections? |
| 17:57:36 | | Quit sarixe ("Leaving") |
| 17:59:38 | | Quit MethoS- (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 18:00 |
| 18:01:21 | | Join SirFunk__ [0] (n=Sir@208-15-25-145.netsync.net) |
| 18:03:02 | | Quit Sedgewick ("off") |
| 18:03:28 | | Quit SirFunk (Connection timed out) |
| 18:14:35 | | Quit SirFunk_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 18:14:57 | linuxstb | kugel: Doesn't chessbox stop playback on Archos devices? |
| 18:15:57 | * | linuxstb wonders why kugel asked for comments, then committed anyway... |
| 18:16:40 | kadoban | oh, right...should probably not include that menu on archos for chessbox |
| 18:25:24 | linuxstb | kugel: Regarding the natural sorting patch, the original comment says "it is not limited to leading numbers in a string", but you've called the setting "Sort leading numbers" ? |
| 18:25:38 | | Quit kugel (Nick collision from services.) |
| 18:25:43 | | Join kugel [0] (n=kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel) |
| 18:26:08 | kugel | linuxstb: I asked if there are objections, not for comments ;) |
| 18:26:48 | * | linuxstb wonders why kugel asked for objects, but didn't give anyone chance to make any |
| 18:26:57 | linuxstb | Bah, I can't type... |
| 18:27:12 | kugel | I waited some minutes, in that time I tested the patch |
| 18:27:34 | kugel | but it should've been clear to me that archos messes it all up again |
| 18:28:25 | kadoban | i have a patch for that, not the prettiest thing, but should fix it. let me put it up somewhere |
| 18:28:42 | linuxstb | kugel: Did you see my other comment, just before you quit and rejoined? |
| 18:29:58 | kugel | yes, now |
| 18:31:18 | kugel | it's the most obvious feature. And it only sorts different to ascii, when there leading numbers, or a "constant" prefix before the numbers (so numbers are still involved) |
| 18:31:32 | kugel | and to make the menu name not kilometers long |
| 18:32:20 | kugel | but if you have a better idea, I'm still open to suggestions |
| 18:32:28 | | Join kubiix [0] (n=511bc91c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/labb.contactor.se/x-027ce2dfd1066945) |
| 18:33:14 | kugel | is there a way to determine whether a plugin stops playback? |
| 18:33:26 | kadoban | i added a patch to FS #9953 to take care of chessbox on archos |
| 18:33:30 | Llorean | I thought at one point it was proposed to affect trailing numbers too, though I never tested to find out if it did. |
| 18:34:05 | | Quit petur ("work->home") |
| 18:34:08 | kadoban | kugel: i think the only way is to look for audio buffer steals or being an overlay |
| 18:34:15 | kugel | yea, if the leading characters are the same (="constant" prefix) |
| 18:34:34 | linuxstb | Llorean: This is the page describing the function we're using - http://sourcefrog.net/projects/natsort/ |
| 18:34:42 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 18:34:54 | kugel | kadoban: I see a archos.lds there |
| 18:35:22 | linuxstb | Which also gives a nice example -http://sourcefrog.net/projects/natsort/example-out.txt |
| 18:35:24 | Llorean | kugel: "The Colour of Magic - 1" isn't something people are going to think of as "a filename where 'The Colour of Magic' is the prefix" |
| 18:36:45 | * | Llorean notes that pic02a comes between pic2 and pic3, suggesting that it's not just prefix either. |
| 18:37:00 | kadoban | frik...that patch i added doesn't work probably |
| 18:37:04 | Llorean | If we're using that algorithm, we could just say "Sort numbers" for it. |
| 18:37:10 | rasher | Llorean: it just sees numbers as a unit |
| 18:37:22 | rasher | As far as I can tell |
| 18:37:32 | kugel | So just "Sort numbers", I'm fine with it |
| 18:37:40 | Llorean | rasher: As long as ours matches that example-out.txt it should be "Sort Numbers" then. |
| 18:38:10 | kugel | I think the name of the menu should be as short as possible, further explanations are for the manual |
| 18:38:11 | rasher | Yeah, I think that's a far better name |
| 18:38:14 | rasher | or "Number sorting" |
| 18:38:19 | Llorean | Or that |
| 18:38:20 | Llorean | Either one. |
| 18:38:41 | kugel | cool |
| 18:39:10 | * | rasher slightly favours "Number sorting", since "Sort numbers" sounds like an action, not a method of doing something. To me, non-native speaker, anyway |
| 18:39:37 | Llorean | "Number Sorting" sounds a bit nicer, I think too. |
| 18:39:54 | Llorean | kugel: So it's a modifier now, rather than its own sort method? |
| 18:39:56 | * | rasher mumbles something about title casing |
| 18:40:15 | woyciesjes_ | I'd vote for "Number Sorting" too. |
| 18:40:41 | Llorean | rasher: I thought our menus were Title case. |
| 18:40:43 | * | gevaerts plays with FS #9708 |
| 18:40:52 | rasher | Llorean: Yeah, they are. For now! |
| 18:40:54 | | Join pondlife [50] (n=Steve@rockbox/developer/pondlife) |
| 18:41:13 | Llorean | rasher: Well, it's pretty common in English. |
| 18:41:18 | kugel | linuxstb: Ok, I'm going to use the #ifdef that's in plugin/SOURCES (#if (MEMORYSIZE <= 8) && !defined(SIMULATOR)) |
| 18:41:20 | Llorean | Even UK English, if one can judge by say, bbc.co.uk |
| 18:41:27 | kugel | Llorean: yes |
| 18:41:37 | | Quit jgarvey ("Leaving") |
| 18:42:21 | pondlife | Really silly question - should splash(HZ, ...) pause for a second or until a keypress before moving on? |
| 18:42:53 | kadoban | kugel: hopefully correct patch now up at the same FS if it helps |
| 18:43:40 | pondlife | My patch on FS #8894 has an unexpected bit of screen update where I use a splash in the menu callback to prompt for a reboot. The menu returns first, then draws the splash for some reason.. |
| 18:43:51 | pondlife | JdGordon: You're Mr Menu callback, no? |
| 18:44:12 | | Join obo [0] (n=obo@77-99-230-49.cable.ubr04.trow.blueyonder.co.uk) |
| 18:44:14 | kugel | kadoban: seems good, almost the same which I did |
| 18:44:25 | kugel | I forgot to #ifdef the #include though |
| 18:45:41 | kugel | but this isn't only true for archos, right? |
| 18:46:29 | kadoban | i believe it's only archos |
| 18:46:47 | kugel | rasher: Sort XYZ is consistent with the rest of the menu though |
| 18:47:05 | kadoban | clip maybe? but that's not set up yet |
| 18:47:51 | kugel | iirc this should be true for the entire AMS sansas, and I believe there's a iriver with 8MB ram too |
| 18:47:57 | * | pondlife would be happy to see the end of Incorrect Title Case... |
| 18:48:22 | | Quit phill () |
| 18:48:24 | pondlife | "Set as Right Quickscreen Item".. :/ |
| 18:48:32 | rasher | kugel: not sure that's important |
| 18:48:56 | kadoban | kugel: it's using the same logic as the overlay building, so if it's flagging incorrect targets then i think it's already broken. or am i missing something? |
| 18:49:29 | kugel | rasher: Consistency matters more to me than "I slightly like this more" |
| 18:49:54 | kugel | kadoban: depends on how much ram chessbox really needs |
| 18:49:56 | rasher | But why does it need to be consistent with other options that aren't very similar? |
| 18:50:11 | kugel | it appears to stop playback on all <= 8MB, which may be correct |
| 18:50:25 | * | rasher would rather rename "Sort Case Sensitive" to "Case sensitive sort(ing)" |
| 18:50:35 | kugel | because it looks ugly, and something that looks ugly can't be good for the user experience |
| 18:50:48 | kugel | that could be done, yes |
| 18:50:50 | linuxstb | Llorean: Your BBC example is the perfect reason why attempting to use title case is a bad idea - some links on http://www.bbc.co.uk use it, but many don't... e.g. at the top - "Display Options" and "Take the tour", "Add more to this page"... |
| 18:51:37 | * | rasher doesn't understand how it would look ugly at all |
| 18:51:58 | kugel | pondlife: I'd have a look at the other options which require reboot (cue sheet support, database, disk cache) |
| 18:52:16 | pondlife | kugel: I did - I stole the code from dircache, but it behaves differently. |
| 18:52:26 | pondlife | Probably something really stupid I've done. |
| 18:52:26 | kugel | oh |
| 18:52:51 | gevaerts | amiconn: I added some notes to FS #9708 about my tests with the ATA dma code. It looks like there's a lot of room for improvement |
| 18:53:24 | Llorean | pondlife: "Incorrect" by what definition? Setting names are titles. |
| 18:53:39 | * | gevaerts managed to get 9.6 MB/s over rockbox USB with a real device (i.e. not a ramdisk) |
| 18:53:53 | pondlife | Titles are proper nouns, surely. Quickscreen maybe, but never verbs.. |
| 18:54:14 | pondlife | I see very little Title Case on the BBC News site.. only in titles and "News Feeds" (a mistake, I guess) |
| 18:54:16 | Llorean | A title can include verbs, can't it? |
| 18:54:58 | pondlife | I think this is more a UK/US English thing. |
| 18:55:08 | Llorean | "Display Options" "Accessibility Help" "Online Courses" "Multifaith Calender" |
| 18:55:13 | pondlife | Where? |
| 18:55:23 | Llorean | Oddly, the titles of articles aren't capitalized, but the titles of all sorts of options/pages you can go to are. |
| 18:55:27 | rasher | gevaerts: Aw, still not on par with the OF :\ |
| 18:55:41 | linuxstb | Apparently, there's an ISO standard for this kind of thing... http://www.usabilitynews.com/news/article2594.asp |
| 18:55:51 | Llorean | "Advertise With Us" "Contact Us" "Reception Advice" |
| 18:55:53 | pondlife | http://news.bbc.co.uk/ has "News feeds" and "News Feeds" |
| 18:56:15 | kugel | Llorean: on bbc.co.uk, if you click on news, every news is sentence case |
| 18:56:24 | Llorean | kugel: We're not discussing news articles. |
| 18:56:28 | Llorean | We're discussing menu options. |
| 18:56:31 | Llorean | Settings, etc. |
| 18:56:38 | Llorean | linuxstb: That's for form labels. |
| 18:56:39 | pondlife | Sorry, I thought you were using news.bbc.co.uk as a ref.. |
| 18:56:55 | kugel | I tend to assume the website was done by US (title case), while the content (which is sentence case) was done by UKs |
| 18:56:57 | rasher | > One crucial issue in legibility (possibly the most crucial) is the question of familiarity. The most familiar presentation of sentences is in sentence case. Most reading is reading of sentences. Therefore, sentence case is easiest to read. |
| 18:57:10 | linuxstb | Llorean: Yes, but still relevant IMO... |
| 18:57:32 | Llorean | kugel: That's a silly assumption to make. |
| 18:57:37 | pondlife | Some of them...! |
| 18:57:44 | Llorean | You have no evidence of where the website was made other than it uses title case. |
| 18:58:18 | pondlife | All I know is that Title Case Looks Odd to me. |
| 18:58:39 | Llorean | It looks odd when you're providing sentences, sure. |
| 18:58:44 | Llorean | We don't put periods on the ends of settings names. |
| 18:58:49 | Llorean | They aren't prose. |
| 18:58:55 | rasher | I really think this lady hit home when she said "Most reading is of sentences. Therefore, sentence case is easiest to read." |
| 18:59:00 | rasher | Even if it's just a fragment |
| 18:59:35 | pondlife | I just want consistency, so we can go for all Title Case if you prefer |
| 18:59:50 | kugel | that's my opinion too |
| 18:59:58 | Llorean | I think "Sound Settings" looks MUCH better than "Sound settings" |
| 18:59:59 | pondlife | But should it then not be "Set As Right Quickscreen Item" |
| 19:00 |
| 19:00:01 | pondlife | ? |
| 19:00:03 | linuxstb | pondlife: That's my point - some strings in english.lang are definitely wrong in title case - things like "Are you sure?" |
| 19:00:13 | Llorean | pondlife: Title Case doesn't mean "Capitalize every word" |
| 19:00:29 | linuxstb | Llorean: And that's the other problem - some strings use "Of", some use "of", etc etc... |
| 19:00:31 | pondlife | I know, but I don't understand why pick on Item and not As, for example |
| 19:00:35 | Llorean | linuxstb: That's not an item in a menu list... |
| 19:00:58 | linuxstb | Llorean: I know. But you try going through the strings in english.lang and maintain consistent rules of that sort... |
| 19:00:58 | Llorean | linuxstb: It's very definitely not a title, so I don't see why title case is even a question for "Are you sure?" |
| 19:01:17 | | Join R3d2Dawn [0] (n=R3d2Dawn@69.180.199.3) |
| 19:01:21 | linuxstb | What about lists of options for settings? They are not setting titles. |
| 19:01:25 | Llorean | So the argument is "we should use sentence case, because although we have both sentences and titles, people shouldn't be expected to sort it out"? |
| 19:01:31 | linuxstb | e.g. "Mono left", "Mono right". |
| 19:01:40 | Llorean | linuxstb: And I don't think those should be title case. |
| 19:01:52 | pondlife | I just don't know enough about title case, I guess. |
| 19:01:53 | R3d2Dawn | How do I get Coverflow? |
| 19:02:11 | pondlife | Llorean: In "Set as Right Quickscreen Item" should Item be a capital? |
| 19:02:23 | rasher | Llorean: My argument is "because it's silly to capitalise titles in the first place" |
| 19:02:27 | pondlife | (have a capital I, I meant) |
| 19:02:31 | rasher | Don't know about everyone else. |
| 19:02:39 | kugel | We agreed on using British English in Rockbox, so the decision on title vs sentence case is up to the British , imo |
| 19:02:49 | linuxstb | Llorean: My argument is that english.lang has _never_ been consistent, and looks a mess. Lots of people (mainly British people) prefer sentence case, others prefer title case, but switching to sentence case would solve the consistency issue forever. |
| 19:02:50 | Llorean | pondlife: Either "right Quickscreen item" or "Right Quickscreen Item" depending on whether the right quickscreen item is a title, or not. |
| 19:02:57 | kugel | or, the native British English speakers, rather |
| 19:03:20 | pondlife | OK, so "Set as Right Quickscreen Item" would be correct... |
| 19:03:34 | Llorean | I think probably so |
| 19:03:38 | pondlife | probably? |
| 19:03:48 | linuxstb | And on the BBC website, "Make this my homepage"... |
| 19:04:14 | Llorean | linuxstb: That's a sentence. Subject, predicate. |
| 19:04:42 | linuxstb | And "Set as right quickscreen item" is different? |
| 19:04:46 | | Part pyro_maniac ("Leaving.") |
| 19:04:51 | Llorean | kugel: the problem is mainly that there's not absolutely clear rules for when to use title case (or what, exactly, should be capitalized when using it) |
| 19:04:54 | * | kugel saw many news titles that appeared to be a sentence and had title case |
| 19:04:58 | Llorean | linuxstb: Look at what I said in regard to it. |
| 19:05:14 | linuxstb | Llorean: I did, but I don't understand the difference. |
| 19:05:19 | Llorean | linuxstb: If "Right Quickscreen Item" is a title, then you capitalize all the words in it. "as" is lowercase, because it's a sentence. Set is uppercase because it's the first word. |
| 19:05:33 | Llorean | It's like saying "Set as Dave Chapman" |
| 19:05:44 | Llorean | Looks like title case for the whole thing, but it's sentence case with a title case object in it. |
| 19:05:44 | linuxstb | Or Make this My Homepage |
| 19:05:49 | | Nick fxb is now known as fxb__ (n=felixbru@h1252615.stratoserver.net) |
| 19:05:54 | linuxstb | In browsers, you have the text "My Homepage" |
| 19:05:58 | Llorean | Is "My Homepage" a title? |
| 19:06:04 | | Join gregzx [0] (n=chatzill@drn19.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) |
| 19:06:16 | gevaerts | rasher: no, but that's probably at least partly due to this 16k read and write size the UMS code uses with the disk |
| 19:06:16 | Llorean | I have a homepage, but I don't have a Homepage. |
| 19:07:14 | Llorean | I mean, we could go entirely sentence case, but I think it'll end up making our software generally look a lot less 'professional' than trying to maintain the mix we have now. |
| 19:07:15 | pondlife | Seems title case isn't used much... http://www.ft.com/home/uk, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/, http://www.guardian.co.uk/ were the first 3 sites I checked. |
| 19:07:35 | pondlife | Capitals for proper nouns only,. |
| 19:07:36 | linuxstb | Where do you have "Right Quickscreen Item" ? Proper nouns are capitised... |
| 19:08:11 | Llorean | pondlife: "Terms and Conditions", "Personal Finance" and others on the telegraph one. |
| 19:08:26 | kugel | the software looks less profressional with sentence case? |
| 19:08:45 | pondlife | kugel: I think it looks less professional with title case |
| 19:08:47 | Llorean | "Terms and Conditions" and "Privacy Policy" seem to be globally capitalized for osme reason. |
| 19:08:53 | kubiix | hi, I am testing the USB transfer from rockbox on Ipod Color and it is much slower than transfer in OF |
| 19:09:00 | rasher | kubiix: We know. |
| 19:09:02 | Llorean | pondlife, kugel: How much software in English do you see in sentence case, then? |
| 19:09:24 | rasher | kubiix: Well, define "much"? It's about 30% of the speed, iirc |
| 19:09:24 | kugel | We look more profession if we follow what other software does? |
| 19:09:24 | kubiix | an is is same on 5.5G ? |
| 19:09:25 | linuxstb | Llorean: That doesn't make it unprofessional. |
| 19:09:37 | kugel | I can'T follow that reasoning |
| 19:09:45 | pondlife | Microsoft use title case too much - it makes me cringe a little |
| 19:09:52 | linuxstb | Exactly... |
| 19:09:54 | pondlife | "My Computer" indeed ;) |
| 19:10:12 | rasher | Maybe it's time for english-us.lang? |
| 19:10:14 | Llorean | kugel: We look more professional if we use the language in the generally accepted way, rather than making up our own rules just to satisfy a few loud people. |
| 19:10:29 | linuxstb | Llorean: Like "Ipod", "Iriver", ... |
| 19:10:51 | Llorean | linuxstb: Personally, I think that's pretty stupid too. Those are 'terms' and should be treated as such. |
| 19:11:34 | woyciesjes_ | Well, according to The Steve and Apple, it's "iPod" :) |
| 19:11:36 | kugel | a) We replace firmwares on highly embedded devices, that's professional enough, b) I don't care how professional it looks, I prefer what looks less odd to my eyes, c) Maximum consistency always looks more prefessional than some mixed stuff (which looks more like a loose bunch) |
| 19:11:40 | pondlife | rasher: Yes, I think so.. :) |
| 19:11:44 | rasher | Seriously, why not create a US English version that uses US spellings and Title Case? |
| 19:11:57 | * | linuxstb is in favour (and favor) of that |
| 19:12:31 | rasher | It shouldn't be a particularly hard change |
| 19:13:07 | pondlife | I do think it's a UK/US thing.... |
| 19:13:20 | Llorean | kugel: It's not "just mixed." How on Earth is "using it the wrong way but we do it everywhere" more professional looking than following the mix that means using each case where appropriate? |
| 19:13:30 | Llorean | Should we ignore title case even when things are _definitely_ titles, just for consistency Kugel? |
| 19:13:44 | linuxstb | Llorean: The point is that titles do not have to be written in title case. |
| 19:13:52 | BigBambi | Llorean: I don't think you can look at software in general - the vast mojority of software forces US English on us. |
| 19:13:53 | linuxstb | That's simply a style issue. |
| 19:13:58 | Llorean | pondlife: Still, you haven't shown me a single instance where someone avoids title case _entirely_ which is what you guys have proposed. |
| 19:14:13 | pondlife | I could always tell that The Onion was a parody of US news sites just by looking at the layout - probably use of Title Case is why :) http://www.theonion.com/content/index |
| 19:14:27 | pondlife | Llorean: It's never going to be 100% with human input.. |
| 19:14:42 | | Quit kubiix ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)") |
| 19:14:56 | pondlife | I look at Misplaced Title Case and see an error. That's what was schooled into me. |
| 19:15:13 | Llorean | But if it's a title, how is it misplaced? |
| 19:15:19 | rasher | Llorean: It's a style issue. I don't see why it's hard to get? |
| 19:15:20 | linuxstb | This is one UK government site where I know their policy is for sentence case - http://www.qca.org.uk/ |
| 19:15:29 | rasher | Not a question of Wrong or Right |
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| 19:15:39 | pondlife | Capitaliation is for proper nouns and the start of a sentence. |
| 19:15:45 | linuxstb | Although even they don't get it right... |
| 19:15:48 | Llorean | rasher: Well, there's still the question of the language that's built in. |
| 19:15:49 | pondlife | Title is neither here nor there |
| 19:16:13 | rasher | Llorean: What? |
| 19:16:15 | Llorean | pondlife: So you're saying Title case isn't valid, period? You think it should be "Harry Potter and the half blood prince" on the book? |
| 19:16:20 | R3d2Dawn | How do I get CoverFlow on the Ipod |
| 19:16:22 | pondlife | No |
| 19:16:29 | BigBambi | R3d2Dawn: You don't |
| 19:16:29 | pondlife | Half-blood Prince |
| 19:16:33 | Llorean | rasher: Do we build in the one that looks like most English software, or the UK English one? |
| 19:16:46 | Llorean | pondlife: But surely that's not a proper noun. He's a prince, and he's half-blooded. |
| 19:16:47 | rasher | Llorean: Most US English software, you mean |
| 19:16:51 | BigBambi | R3d2Dawn: Rockbox has a visualisation called Pictureflow, that is detailed in the manual |
| 19:16:56 | pondlife | That's a proper noun, it refers to a specific person (even if not by name) |
| 19:17:01 | Llorean | rasher: I haven't yet seen an example of UK English software brought up before me. |
| 19:17:05 | rasher | Llorean: And we use UK English, just as we do everywhere |
| 19:17:20 | Llorean | pondlife: That doesn't make it a proper noun. Otherwise "That Guy Who Does the Dishes" or such. |
| 19:17:21 | BigBambi | Llorean: I don't see why we should put up with having US English forced on us, but you can never have UK English? |
| 19:17:28 | rasher | Llorean: Because everyone uses US English in software for some gosh darn reason |
| 19:17:48 | R3d2Dawn | I watched a video via utube that showed someone with rockbox on there ipod and coverflow well it was called something else though |
| 19:17:56 | pondlife | Llorean: That Guy Who Does The Dishes (or similar) would be correct |
| 19:17:58 | kugel | when we choosed UK english in Rockbox, saying that "Other software forces us to US english" isn't valid |
| 19:18:01 | BigBambi | R3d2Dawn: Yes, Pictureflow as I said |
| 19:18:03 | Llorean | BigBambi, rasher: My point is, we go through an effort to try to present to the general public what they _expect_ in cases where it doesn't hurt functionality. What they expect is title case, because that's what other software does. |
| 19:18:13 | pondlife | http://hospitality.hud.ac.uk/studyskills/writing/Punctuation/capitals.htm |
| 19:18:19 | Llorean | kugel: We chose UK _spellings_ |
| 19:18:22 | rasher | Llorean: So we should switch to US english? |
| 19:18:31 | rasher | Users _expect_ to see "color" |
| 19:18:46 | pondlife | Seriously, just make an American.lang |
| 19:18:49 | rasher | Right now, english.lang is a UK/US mutant |
| 19:18:50 | BigBambi | rasher: Even though I dislike it |
| 19:18:53 | linuxstb | pondlife: "American" ? ;) |
| 19:18:54 | R3d2Dawn | it was called pictureflow |
| 19:19:06 | BigBambi | R3d2Dawn: Yes, I have told you that *twice* |
| 19:19:12 | R3d2Dawn | Ok thanks |
| 19:19:14 | BigBambi | R3d2Dawn: It is also in the manual |
| 19:19:28 | R3d2Dawn | Thanks |
| 19:19:39 | kugel | Llorean: So UK spelling and US English? |
| 19:19:45 | kugel | even worse |
| 19:19:50 | Llorean | rasher: Spelling is a language thing. Capitalization is an aesthetic thing. |
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| 19:20:00 | pondlife | It's a cultural thing |
| 19:20:10 | Llorean | kugel: As we've established, there's no clear grammatical rule on the capitalization issue. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this issue. |
| 19:20:16 | rasher | Llorean: It's as much part of the language as the spelling |
| 19:20:24 | Llorean | rasher: Then find me a rule regarding it. |
| 19:20:35 | rasher | Who said it was a rule? |
| 19:20:53 | Llorean | I thought it was part of the language. |
| 19:20:57 | rasher | IT IS |
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| 19:21:02 | kugel | I would've been slapped by my German teacher if I didn't capitalise nounds, it *is* part of the language |
| 19:21:03 | rasher | doesn't mean it's a rule set in stone |
| 19:21:06 | BigBambi | I'm not actually too bothered as long as the spelling is correct |
| 19:21:17 | Llorean | pondlife: The page you linked to supports title case. |
| 19:21:22 | linuxstb | I started this discussion last year, because someone changed a large number of strings from sentence case to title case in english.lang, without asking if that was wanted... |
| 19:21:29 | kugel | by my English teacher too |
| 19:21:41 | linuxstb | And people still add new sentence case strings, meaning lots of people want them... |
| 19:21:44 | pondlife | "Use capital letters at the start of only the first and important words in a title" |
| 19:22:00 | * | linuxstb learnt that at school... |
| 19:22:04 | pondlife | I think the point is whether a menu option is a title. I'd say not. |
| 19:22:12 | Llorean | pondlife: The page you linked says "use them for the start of the first and key words, and not for small words within the title. " |
| 19:22:13 | pondlife | A title is of a book or a film etc. |
| 19:22:29 | Llorean | "Playback Settings" is not the title of that set of menus? |
| 19:22:49 | * | Llorean thinks anything that will show at the top of the list on the next screen is a "title" |
| 19:23:03 | Lear | But also the name of a menu option. |
| 19:23:31 | Llorean | Lear: Titles exist to be the name of *something* |
| 19:24:21 | rasher | Llorean: You still haven't given any reason not to create an english-us.lang |
| 19:24:24 | Lear | I just meant that the same string in the lang file can be used in different places, like a menu title and a menu option. |
| 19:24:35 | pondlife | I don't think you can argue this one either way logically. It's a "what the user expects" thing which (probably) maps to UK/US. |
| 19:24:39 | obo | UK software, with sentence case: http://toastytech.com/guis/riscos4openingamenu.gif |
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| 19:25:07 | linuxstb | obo: Thank God for that... |
| 19:25:24 | | Part R3d2Dawn ("Leaving.") |
| 19:25:24 | kugel | obo: haha, nice find |
| 19:25:27 | Llorean | rasher: I never said we shouldn't. |
| 19:25:35 | rasher | So why continue this discussion? |
| 19:25:38 | Llorean | Lear: But as a menu option, it's still the title. |
| 19:25:42 | rasher | It's a rather obvious solution... |
| 19:25:56 | Llorean | rasher: Except that then the question comes up of default... as I said last time you asked... |
| 19:26:11 | rasher | Let people who expect US English pick english-us, and let Rockbox continue being UK English |
| 19:26:28 | Llorean | obo: I don't see any menu titles there... |
| 19:26:31 | rasher | We've *already* decided on UK English |
| 19:26:31 | kugel | so, commit http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/9948 , and the first one who bothers enough makes a english-us.lang or Title-Case.lang :) |
| 19:26:55 | rasher | Someone commit title-case.lang and I'll cut him |
| 19:27:16 | Llorean | obo: Or at least none with more than one word. |
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| 19:27:44 | rasher | Llorean: Don't tell me "what a user expects" (what other programs use) isn't "Set Work Directory" |
| 19:28:06 | pondlife | rasher: That's Microsoft talk, that is ;) |
| 19:28:08 | Llorean | rasher: I don't understand that sentence at all. |
| 19:28:33 | rasher | Llorean: I'm saying that if this program was using US English and title case, that menu would've been "Set Work Directory" |
| 19:28:34 | Llorean | I'd expect "Set work directory" |
| 19:28:49 | Llorean | It's not a menu title, it's a command. |
| 19:28:50 | rasher | Then you wouldn't get what you expected |
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| 19:29:22 | rasher | You're arguing we should do what other Title Case Users do - they would put "Set Work Directory" |
| 19:29:29 | fml | Hello. Does the "release/current build" option in RBUtil apply to both the RB and the bootloader? |
| 19:29:59 | Llorean | rasher: I'm arguing that we shouldn't remove title case _for titles_. On argument in favour of that is that generally people expect to see title case in software. |
| 19:30:00 | kugel | no |
| 19:30:24 | Llorean | rasher: But the one point in favour isn't what my goal is, it's just an argument in favour to weigh against "we shouldn't do it because I think it looks dumb" |
| 19:30:41 | bombardier | how about making two releases with different cases :) |
| 19:31:01 | rasher | Either you want us to do what's "familiar" or you don't. If you want to use that argument, there's no sense in not using Title Case like everyone else |
| 19:31:11 | Llorean | rasher: That's a false argument. |
| 19:31:15 | fml | kugel: were you speaking to me? |
| 19:31:23 | Llorean | rasher: You're telling me I'm not allowed to be in favour of using title case for titles, unless I want to use it for everything? |
| 19:31:23 | kugel | yes |
| 19:32:04 | rasher | Llorean: no, I'm saying using the "familiarity" argument falls down if you're not actually going to do what everyone else does |
| 19:32:20 | Llorean | rasher: familiarity is not a binary situation. You can be more familiar without doing *everything* the other guy does. |
| 19:32:47 | rasher | Then you'd be sitting between two chairs, which is the *worst* for user-familiarity |
| 19:32:55 | Llorean | That's silly. |
| 19:32:57 | Llorean | It's definitely not in this case. |
| 19:32:58 | rasher | No |
| 19:32:59 | fml | kugel: how can I install the "USB enabled" bootloader then? (Could you please prepend the nick to (at least very general and hard-to-relate) phrases?) |
| 19:33:21 | pondlife | The logical argument really comes down to whether "Set as Right Quickscreen Item" is a title or not. |
| 19:33:23 | rasher | "Oh, this is clearly not Title Case as I'm used " or "This is all Title Case as I'm used to" are both better than "This is Title Case some places, but Why Not Everywhere?" |
| 19:33:25 | Llorean | If people are used to seeing a lot of title case, seeing a little less is still more familiar than seeing none. |
| 19:33:30 | pondlife | I say not, Llorean says it is. |
| 19:33:31 | rasher | Llorean: false |
| 19:33:40 | Llorean | Saying "seeing a little less is going to be more alien than seeing none at all" is hard to back up. |
| 19:33:59 | Llorean | pondlife: That's not a title. That's a sentence, in sentence case. |
| 19:34:23 | pondlife | So it should be "Set as right quickscreen item" |
| 19:34:36 | rasher | I'm not saying "more alien", I'm saying more confusing. |
| 19:34:38 | pondlife | No proper nouns there (well, perhaps Quickscreen... (tm)) |
| 19:34:50 | rasher | Stop putting words in my mouth |
| 19:34:53 | Llorean | pondlife: I think it's already *in* sentence case, but it's a sentence with a title in it, that title being "Right Quickscreen Item" |
| 19:34:59 | Llorean | The question is whether "Right Quickscreen Item" is a title. |
| 19:35:27 | kugel | fml: grab sansapatcher, or compile your own |
| 19:35:30 | Llorean | rasher: "more alien" and "more confusing" are synonymous unless you think people can be confused by familiar things. It has to be less familiar to be more confusing, and familiar is the opposite of alien... |
| 19:36:01 | Llorean | Sorry, not "synonymous" but "equivalent" |
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| 19:36:21 | kugel | fml: if you use a pre-compiled sansapatcher, make sure that you don't install the build-in bootloader |
| 19:36:29 | rasher | Llorean: I explained already. |
| 19:36:42 | Llorean | Using title case for the names of menu titles, and sentence case for individual options in lists and actual sentences isn't realistically going to confuse anyone. |
| 19:37:13 | pondlife | It's a matter of appearing consistent, not confusion. |
| 19:37:16 | Llorean | rasher: You didn't explain. You stated a claim with no explanation as to why that claim might be true. |
| 19:37:23 | rasher | But but consistently using UK English and associated rules are? |
| 19:37:26 | linuxstb | Llorean: So what when the same string is used in both places? |
| 19:37:28 | kugel | or we just use sentence case for everything, and don't have a tiresome discussion on every menu item on whether it's a title or not |
| 19:37:31 | Llorean | pondlife: And there's no consistency in "items used as actual menu titles are titles, others are not"? |
| 19:37:35 | rasher | Llorean: if you can't follow logic, that's not my problem |
| 19:37:55 | Llorean | rasher: There's no LOGIC to what you said. You didn't _explain_. You said "the sky is blue" and didn't follow up with any evidence that it is. |
| 19:37:58 | kugel | if title case implies that we have to decide on title or sentence for every single string, that, no thanks |
| 19:38:02 | Llorean | Your opinion on its own isn't "logic" by magic. |
| 19:38:15 | kugel | then* |
| 19:38:19 | Llorean | linuxstb: Do you have examples of items that are used twice? |
| 19:38:19 | rasher | Llorean: Seriously, why haven't you created english-us.lang yet? |
| 19:38:20 | pondlife | Llorean: So, title case if it has sub-options (and thus could appear as a heading), or sentence case if you're at the bottom of the tree? |
| 19:38:26 | fml | kugel: ok, will check. Another question (for the others as well): is there a wiki page explaining the differences between the USB charging and USB connection for data transfer? I think I've read (here in IRC) this is not the same but what is active when? |
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| 19:38:43 | Llorean | rasher: If you ask me that again, I'm just leaving. I've explained that this is about defaults now twice, I'm getting tired of you circling back to pointless things like that. |
| 19:38:54 | Llorean | pondlife: basically, yes. Title case *for titles* |
| 19:38:54 | rasher | It's not pointless - it's a SOLUTION |
| 19:39:06 | Llorean | rasher: it doesn't solve the default issue... at all. |
| 19:39:16 | rasher | Llorean: that's not an issue at all |
| 19:39:21 | rasher | Rockbox is UK English. |
| 19:39:34 | rasher | Anyone who wants another language should pick that |
| 19:39:49 | kugel | fml: huh, the difference between charging and connected as ums drive is pretty clear |
| 19:39:52 | Llorean | rasher: And you've yet to show me that this is an issue of language, rather than aesthetic. If UK people like blue text more than white text, do we change the color too? |
| 19:40:14 | rasher | If this was an issue, I don't see how we haven't had a huge shitstorm over using UK spellings |
| 19:40:30 | rasher | Llorean: UK English uses sentence case. US English uses Title Case. Why is this hard? |
| 19:40:42 | Llorean | rasher: UK English also uses Title Case, they just use it in less cases than US English. |
| 19:40:59 | rasher | Llorean: Irrelevant to this discussion though. |
| 19:41:04 | Llorean | No, it's not. |
| 19:41:17 | rasher | It damn well is, because UK English wouldn't use title case in Rockbox. |
| 19:41:23 | Llorean | Since this discussion is entirely about the question "do we have things in Rockbox that qualify as titles for the purpose of casing?" |
| 19:41:26 | amiconn | gevaerts: Why would the 16K blocksize be the limiting factor on the Video? |
| 19:41:51 | Llorean | rasher: Based on your own opinion of how the language works, or what? |
| 19:41:58 | pondlife | UK English users use title case incorrectly sometimes, just like they use the Oxford comma sometimes. It's human to make mistakes. |
| 19:42:01 | rasher | And pixies and rainbows. |
| 19:42:09 | fml | kugel: I mean, when I plug in the USB, does it charge only? Or can I trasfer data as well? Or only transfer? If the latter is the case, what should I do to charge? I think there's been a discussion about how to let the user to decide what should happen on USB plug. |
| 19:42:20 | kugel | it connects |
| 19:42:31 | kugel | you hold select upon inserting if you only want to charge |
| 19:42:50 | kugel | fml: yes, there was a (very short) discussion |
| 19:43:03 | kugel | letting the user decide is considered as configurable buttons, and thus rejected |
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| 19:43:12 | Llorean | pondlife: So show me some book titles, and other actual titles of things that use sentence case? |
| 19:43:22 | Llorean | Titles of _things_ as we're discussing. |
| 19:43:36 | rasher | Setting title != Book title |
| 19:43:47 | Llorean | rasher: They're both titles. |
| 19:43:52 | obo | So menu items are automatically titles, and not sentences? |
| 19:43:55 | pondlife | No, the question is not which case to use for titles, it is "what is a title?" |
| 19:44:04 | * | pondlife types too slowly |
| 19:44:11 | fml | kugel: aha! So if I hold SELECT then it only charges but RB continues to run (not entering the USB mode)? And if I plug it in without holding anything it enters the USB mode so that I can transfer data but at the same time the battery is charged? |
| 19:44:15 | Llorean | pondlife: Well, you haven't explained to me why titles at the tops of lists aren't titles, then. |
| 19:44:17 | rasher | Llorean: but different "levels" of titles |
| 19:44:24 | kugel | fml: exactly |
| 19:44:25 | pondlife | Heading != title |
| 19:44:25 | Llorean | rasher: Ah, so it's down to interpretation and opinion again? |
| 19:44:36 | rasher | Not really. |
| 19:45:04 | Llorean | pondlife: According to dictionary.com, that's incorrect. |
| 19:45:14 | Llorean | rasher: Well, then, what exactly is the level at which the line is drawn? |
| 19:45:15 | fml | kugel: ok, now I undertand! |
| 19:45:29 | Llorean | rasher: If it's not up to opinion, I assume you can provide a reference? |
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| 19:47:08 | fml | Llorean, rasher, pondlife: my 2 cents: in an English-"speaking" app, I'd expect all menu entries in Title Case. I'd also expect them in this form (i.e. Title Case) if they are mentioned in a running text, e.g. the manual. |
| 19:47:41 | pondlife | fml: Absolutely, the manual etc. should be consistent with whatever we have. |
| 19:48:12 | * | Llorean goes to lunch, and eagerly awaits some meaningful definitions of "title" that clarify what are are are not titles. |
| 19:48:15 | pondlife | I don't see why "Right Quickscreen Item" is so important to merit being a title. |
| 19:48:35 | amiconn | Well, it isn't a sentence. |
| 19:48:41 | Llorean | pondlife: Well that one may not be. That's why I only said "probably." I don't know if it's used as a title anywhere. |
| 19:48:42 | pondlife | It's a noun |
| 19:48:44 | * | Llorean really is gone now. |
| 19:49:05 | fml | pondlife: i.e. if you could put something in "" in the running text it should appear exactly as it does where it really appears in the app (I hope the sentence is not a nonsense) |
| 19:49:13 | kugel | amiconn: but "Set as Right Quickscreen Item" is, isn't it? |
| 19:49:45 | amiconn | Yes, almost (missing the period). |
| 19:49:51 | * | kugel finds that looks shity |
| 19:49:59 | pondlife | What about "Touchpad Sensitivity" |
| 19:50:14 | pondlife | Or "Stop Recording And Shutdown" |
| 19:50:35 | webguest84 | 2nd one is a sentence |
| 19:50:43 | kugel | pondlife: I can agree on title case with the former, not with the latter |
| 19:51:00 | pondlife | They both look wrong to me |
| 19:51:06 | kugel | but I'd prefer "Touchpad sensitivity" too |
| 19:51:09 | fml | I'd expect those to be in title case since they all apper as menu entries |
| 19:51:34 | pondlife | This is the problem with entertaining Title Case. |
| 19:51:56 | * | kugel expects nothing |
| 19:52:05 | pondlife | If you exclude it then there's reduced chance of inconsistency |
| 19:52:20 | linuxstb | Plus it looks right ;) |
| 19:52:20 | kugel | I haven't ever put extra attention on title or sentence case in any software |
| 19:52:25 | pondlife | In German you always capitalise nouns, right? |
| 19:52:32 | kugel | yes |
| 19:53:02 | pondlife | Just checking.. it's been some years since I wrote much. |
| 19:53:16 | fml | This is simple: if it's a menu item do it title case. For example, "Set As Right Quickscreen Item". In the manual, we'd have "To set this item as the right quickscreen item, select Set As Right Quickscreen Item" |
| 19:53:40 | kugel | fml: It's not about the manual |
| 19:53:59 | kugel | Sure the manual is consitent with Rockbox, that's not the point of this discussion |
| 19:54:19 | kugel | s/is/should be/ |
| 19:54:21 | fml | kugel: not *only* about the manual. But my definition covers all cases (so I hope) |
| 19:54:28 | pondlife | It might not be 100% language, but I think it's quite a close match. |
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| 19:56:04 | kugel | any further opinions about the sorting patch? |
| 19:56:16 | * | linuxstb looks up the definition of "title" - http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/title?view=uk |
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| 19:56:21 | * | kugel thinks a -dev ml mail would be appropriate |
| 19:56:32 | pondlife | linuxstb: Yes, not heading |
| 19:56:44 | linuxstb | The key being "the name of a book, musical composition, or other artistic work." |
| 19:56:59 | kugel | "Law a right or claim to the ownership of property or to a rank or throne. " certainly applies :D |
| 19:57:08 | pondlife | "a caption or credit in a film or broadcast" is closest to a Rockbox menu option... |
| 19:57:08 | linuxstb | So menus don't have "titles", they simply have a name. |
| 19:57:17 | fml | kugel: in the last commit, I think it'd be better to declare a symbol with a meaningful name (e.g. HAVE_PLAYBACK_CONTROL) and use it instead of repeating rather long condition several times. |
| 19:57:40 | kugel | fml: feel free to work that out |
| 19:58:12 | kugel | I simply copied from SOURCES, which decides whether to compile the overlay |
| 19:58:33 | linuxstb | pondlife: What would they be (caption or credit) ? |
| 19:58:39 | pondlife | Neither ;) |
| 19:59:10 | pondlife | But that's exactly what I meant by "heading != title" |
| 19:59:12 | linuxstb | No, I meant what are examples of captions or credits in a broadcast/film? |
| 19:59:47 | pondlife | "Executive Producer: Max Badhands" |
| 19:59:53 | pondlife | etc.etc. |
| 20:00 |
| 20:00:00 | pondlife | The titles are rolling |
| 20:00:16 | linuxstb | So, "job title" ? |
| 20:00:23 | kugel | rasher: another idea: "Sort numbered filenames" ? |
| 20:00:46 | pondlife | kugel: I look forward to the option whatever it's called :) |
| 20:00:50 | linuxstb | But I think that makes it clear that the rockbox menu items are not considered titles... |
| 20:00:51 | kugel | hm, but that may imply "only leading" too, or not? |
| 20:01:04 | pondlife | Absolutely. |
| 20:01:41 | kugel | I like that definition. We souldn't accept another one, in case Llorean comes up with some |
| 20:02:07 | linuxstb | That's from the Oxford English Dictionary (or at least, the Compact version...) |
| 20:02:08 | pondlife | The OED is the ultimate English language reference, I'd say... |
| 20:02:23 | kugel | yes, just saying |
| 20:02:37 | Lss | its missing some ink |
| 20:02:44 | Lss | QED > OED |
| 20:03:08 | kugel | :? |
| 20:03:11 | fml | kugel: the patch is at http://pastebin.ca/1348029 |
| 20:03:54 | kugel | fml: I don't think this is needed to be local to chessbox only |
| 20:04:19 | | Quit gromit` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 20:04:33 | fml | kugel: that wouldbe another step. But I get allergic if I see something like this repeated. |
| 20:04:38 | kadoban | but i don't think it's possible to have a global define for that. it depends on the size of the plugin |
| 20:05:04 | kadoban | for example, goban is also an overlay, but with slightly different logic |
| 20:05:35 | kugel | then the logic should be a parameter |
| 20:07:50 | kugel | any opinion on "Sort numbered filename"? |
| 20:08:02 | fml | kugel: do it as you want, but without repetition of code :-) |
| 20:08:47 | fml | kugel: that means that the name itself is sorted, not quite what it is |
| 20:09:31 | | Quit kugel (Nick collision from services.) |
| 20:09:36 | | Join kugel [0] (n=kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel) |
| 20:09:43 | fml | Respect numbers in the beginning of file names? |
| 20:09:53 | kugel | fml: I don't quite understand |
| 20:10:04 | kugel | well, not only in the beginning |
| 20:10:36 | gevaerts | amiconn: Speed stops going up with "higher" UDMA modes. That doesn't have to mean anything as such, but (a) USB *can* be faster (cf. the mini), and (b) it tends to go up with modes on the CF-mini. I think it's at least worth investigating if this is indeed the bottleneck |
| 20:10:38 | | Part pondlife |
| 20:11:25 | rasher | gevaerts: Is the USB code locked at 16kb r/w? |
| 20:11:48 | fml | kugel: I thought that was only for number in the beginning, i.e. not in "Give me 1000 things" |
| 20:12:32 | | Join midgey [0] (n=tjross@c-71-205-31-207.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) |
| 20:13:30 | gevaerts | rasher: the way it's currently structured, yes (although it can do lower) |
| 20:14:54 | amiconn | gevaerts: Yeah, but why are you saying 16KB blocksize is the limiting factor on the Video, but not on the Mini? |
| 20:16:13 | gevaerts | amiconn: hm, it probably is as well. I was mostly looking at the read numbers when I wrote that bit |
| 20:16:17 | | Join jaykay [0] (n=chatzill@p579E6504.dip.t-dialin.net) |
| 20:16:30 | * | gevaerts should think a bit more before writing things :) |
| 20:16:56 | * | amiconn wonders how the OF manages the 15MB/s |
| 20:17:12 | kugel | fml: no, it also sorts "Give me 999 things" before "Give me 1000 things" |
| 20:18:52 | * | gevaerts votes to call this "intuitive sorting (but we won't tell you who's intuition)" |
| 20:19:42 | * | kugel points gevaerts to the -dev ml :) |
| 20:20:50 | fml | kugel: oh, I didn't know. How about "9_give me 1000" and "10_give me 999"? The first number wins? How about "give me 1000" and "2_give me 999"? I think if it applies to other numbers then it can get too far |
| 20:22:07 | kadoban | fml: of course it does the sane thing in those cases, and stops after the first number/difference is resolved |
| 20:22:36 | gevaerts | amiconn: I've been thinking about caching a lot more data and only writing if we either have a lot or a SCSI command comes in that doesn't write to the next consecutive sector. Since any modern OS will send SCSI_ALLOW_MEDIUM_REMOVAL commands to removable devices we know when the OS is done using it, so this *should* be safe unless the DAP crashes |
| 20:23:36 | | Quit kugel (Nick collision from services.) |
| 20:23:41 | | Join kugel [0] (n=kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel) |
| 20:24:14 | linuxstb | gevaerts: Do you know when Linux sends that? On umount or eject? |
| 20:24:40 | amiconn | gevaerts: Do you know how to detect on the device side that the device was safely ejected? |
| 20:25:02 | amiconn | The various OF's manage it so it is possible |
| 20:25:03 | gevaerts | linuxstb: SCSI_ALLOW_MEDIUM_REMOVAL is on unmount. Eject is SCSI_START_STOP_UNIT (with various bits set) |
| 20:25:18 | gevaerts | amiconn: I have to look at the details again, but yes. |
| 20:25:26 | linuxstb | gevaerts: What about when multiple partitions are mounted? |
| 20:25:56 | fml | kadoban: I mean, what happens if you have two titles, one with a number at the start and the other with a number in the middle? E.g. "20_xyz" and "Give me 5"? How would you sort these two? |
| 20:26:00 | gevaerts | linuxstb: I should try, but I would expect SCSI_ALLOW_MEDIUM_REMOVAL when the last one is unmounted |
| 20:26:07 | kugel | fml: numbers are considered as 1 unit |
| 20:26:28 | kugel | and still stops after the first difference, but with complete numbers being 1 unit |
| 20:27:00 | kugel | it sorts 20 before g |
| 20:27:37 | kadoban | fml: the only time that it's different from currently is when two numbers are compared. this doesn't happen unless the strings are identical up to that point |
| 20:28:04 | linuxstb | gevaerts: Have you thought about switching from UMS to charging mode on eject? |
| 20:28:18 | * | linuxstb seems to recall having this discussion before... |
| 20:28:18 | fml | kugel: aha, now I see. With rule "a number is 'less' than any non-number character? |
| 20:28:27 | gevaerts | linuxstb: it should do that. I know it doesn't though... |
| 20:28:27 | kugel | fml: yes |
| 20:29:29 | amiconn | gevaerts: Actually even some hw-bridge targets can do that, but it's not implemented in rockbox yet |
| 20:29:35 | fml | kugel: that makes sense, yes. |
| 20:29:52 | gevaerts | amiconn: I'm actually not sure if it's legal SCSI behaviour though |
| 20:30:29 | gevaerts | But as long as people aren't running their mission-critical ACID databases on a sansa I think we're fine |
| 20:31:04 | | Quit nuonguy ("Leaving") |
| 20:32:32 | | Quit midijunkie ("?(???~•~)?") |
| 20:33:43 | | Join rocko [0] (n=rocko@c-67-167-117-152.hsd1.il.comcast.net) |
| 20:33:52 | | Quit tmzt (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) |
| 20:34:47 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 20:35:27 | | Join bluefoxx [0] (i=BlueFoxx@S0106005004792985.vs.shawcable.net) |
| 20:35:34 | rasher | What's the status of the theme site? |
| 20:37:06 | kugel | the status didn't change recently, I guess |
| 20:37:08 | bluefoxx | Hey. I've got several questions, but I'm not sure which to start with here. I suppose asking how i might rip the factory firmware from a stock e260 to flash onto a rockboxed one with newer firmware might be a start. Anyone care to help? |
| 20:37:22 | | Join tmzt [0] (n=tmzt@adsl-69-221-153-81.dsl.akrnoh.ameritech.net) |
| 20:37:43 | kugel | install the new firmware, then install rockbox? |
| 20:38:45 | bluefoxx | I ask this, because on my rockboxed sansa, I had to redo the firmware after screwing around too much and it locked up on USB connectivity, but now it does the obnoxious database rebuild upon connecting to my PC |
| 20:38:59 | | Join kachna [0] (n=kachna@r4ax178.net.upc.cz) |
| 20:39:33 | | Join zimba42 [0] (n=wolfgang@static-87-245-56-111.teleos-web.de) |
| 20:39:46 | linuxstb | bluefoxx: Do you use the original firmware, or just to connect to your PC? |
| 20:40:12 | bluefoxx | I've attempted what the page in the FAQ says, but the firmware file seems no good. whenever that stock firmware loads, the sansa crashes and gives green/blue bars and waves |
| 20:40:12 | | Join Strife89 [0] (n=michael@204.116.244.200) |
| 20:40:27 | bluefoxx | I use the origional firmware simply for connecting to the PC |
| 20:40:34 | | Quit robin0800 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 20:40:38 | linuxstb | Since yesterday, Rockbox has its own USB mode, so you don't need the original firmware |
| 20:40:45 | bluefoxx | I saw. |
| 20:41:06 | | Join robin0800 [0] (n=quassel@cpc3-brig8-0-0-cust436.brig.cable.ntl.com) |
| 20:41:20 | | Join petur [50] (n=petur@rockbox/developer/petur) |
| 20:41:41 | zimba42 | is there anything new about the sansa e200v2/fuze playback problems? is it a storage driver problem? |
| 20:42:17 | bluefoxx | I don't plan to upgrade, until I can figure out how to customize some things. The menu layout is radically different from my liking, as is the typing navigation. Theres other things too, like the revision I'm using I can tap the <rec> button in the WPS screen and it brings up my current playlist. |
| 20:42:45 | n1s | zimba42: it is likely a storage problem but i dont' think anyone knows exactly what the problem is |
| 20:45:00 | bluefoxx | Which would have been my second question. How could I customize a build of rockbox with those features? I'm also looking to find a stripped down version that does recording only, I have a sansa that works, but has a broken screen(cable inside is bad). I don't want to throw it away, so the plan is to turn it into a voice recorder or sorts... |
| 20:45:21 | zimba42 | n1s: how to debug it then? |
| 20:45:21 | | Join pyro_maniac [0] (n=jens@91-67-254-113-dynip.superkabel.de) |
| 20:45:35 | kadoban | bluefoxx: there'sa blind interface...use that? :) |
| 20:45:38 | n1s | bluefoxx: you need to patch the source and compile your own version |
| 20:46:22 | zimba42 | yea.. patch it! make the world a better place! |
| 20:47:18 | bluefoxx | I do recall (rather painfully) using the voice menus when that was my main player (screen broke, hunted down another v1, swapped the memory chips) |
| 20:47:35 | n1s | zimba42: i'm not sure, probably you should start by asking people who have investigated it |
| 20:47:37 | bluefoxx | So can I get a link to the page that tells my how to patch this than? |
| 20:48:36 | bluefoxx | I rather have to leave soon, but a link to the page for this would be great, when I get back home tonight I plan to take a look and give it a shot. |
| 20:49:22 | BigBambi | bluefoxx: There are many links in the wiki telling you how to compile |
| 20:49:37 | BigBambi | bluefoxx: However, what changes to make to the source is down to you |
| 20:49:41 | n1s | bluefoxx: our wiki has plenty of info on how to set up a dev environment and compile, start lookign under the "for developers" section in the index |
| 20:51:11 | bluefoxx | Well I don't have time to dig for a link right now, but if I could get a couple than I would have them waiting for me when I get back, as a nice reminder to me saying "Oh yea, I'm that other fiddly project you have to work on" otherwise I'll end up spending my time updating backups and by the time I remember I'll be going to bed... |
| 20:52:02 | gevaerts | http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/DocsIndex#For_Developers |
| 20:52:50 | bluefoxx | Thank you. Anyways, I have to go now. Outside life and all that. |
| 21:00 |
| 21:08:17 | gevaerts | I get 8.9 MB/s when reading using udma4, 8.2 MB/s using the USB_USE_RAMDISK code in usb_storage.c, and 8.8 MB/s using the USB_USE_RAMDISK with the memcpy()s commented out (so using whatever data happens to be there) |
| 21:08:48 | | Quit obo ("Bye") |
| 21:14:00 | | Join akur [0] (n=akur@bl7-117-9.dsl.telepac.pt) |
| 21:16:18 | gevaerts | That basically means that whatever we do on the ATA side, it won't go faster. We need to work on the USB side |
| 21:17:57 | | Quit tvelocity (Remote closed the connection) |
| 21:20:51 | | Quit Lear ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.1b3pre/20090226034605]") |
| 21:23:24 | | Join stripwax [0] (n=Miranda@87-194-34-169.bethere.co.uk) |
| 21:23:33 | | Quit stripwax (Client Quit) |
| 21:24:31 | * | gevaerts suspects that we'll have to implement proper chained transfers in the ARC driver to go faster |
| 21:27:01 | | Part akur |
| 21:27:45 | | Join zimba421 [0] (n=wolfgang@static-87-245-56-111.teleos-web.de) |
| 21:28:21 | | Quit zimba421 (Client Quit) |
| 21:30:12 | | Quit robin0800 (Remote closed the connection) |
| 21:30:26 | | Quit zimba42 (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) |
| 21:38:41 | n17ikh | huh |
| 21:38:55 | | Quit parafin (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 21:39:04 | | Quit Strife89 ("Gotta go.") |
| 21:39:09 | n17ikh | after deleting a file on my microsd card (e200) using the new usb mode, it unmounted without warning |
| 21:39:28 | n17ikh | not sure if it was deleting or reading, I was moving files off using windows |
| 21:39:37 | | Join bluebrother [0] (n=dom@rockbox/developer/bluebrother) |
| 21:40:48 | n17ikh | was in the middle of the move and windows complained that the rest of the files no longer existed |
| 21:41:02 | n17ikh | actually, both the microsd card and the sansa itself unmounted |
| 21:41:21 | gevaerts | What exactly do you mean by "unmounted" ? |
| 21:41:35 | n17ikh | disappeared from my computer |
| 21:41:42 | n17ikh | and from safely remove devices, and from diskmgmt |
| 21:42:03 | n17ikh | the sansa didn't lock up, I unplugged the usb cable and it went back into regular mode |
| 21:42:14 | n17ikh | I'm on vista x64, if that helps |
| 21:42:26 | gevaerts | Does the event log say anything? (I don't know if it's supposed to...) |
| 21:42:33 | n17ikh | the windows event log? |
| 21:42:41 | gevaerts | yes |
| 21:43:08 | n17ikh | one sec |
| 21:43:42 | * | kugel understands this SCROLL_WHEEL thing in rockblox |
| 21:43:47 | n17ikh | yeah, I've got one |
| 21:43:47 | * | rasher wonders why the theme site is using KiB |
| 21:43:54 | n17ikh | from the "VDS dynamic provider" |
| 21:44:00 | n17ikh | The provider failed while storing notifications from the driver. The Virtual Disk Service should be restarted. hr=80042505 |
| 21:44:17 | gevaerts | hm, no idea what that means... |
| 21:44:19 | n17ikh | that's the only event I have from the past week, and it happened five minutes ago |
| 21:44:22 | n17ikh | yeah, me either :/ |
| 21:44:44 | | Join perrikwp [0] (i=98214c9d@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-baabb49535dcb7f0) |
| 21:45:03 | bluebrother | rasher: because it's correct when calculating 2-based? ;-) |
| 21:45:19 | n17ikh | *now* rockbox appears to have locked up, after I plugged it back into usb |
| 21:45:26 | rasher | bluebrother: It's correct, but there's no reason not to use 10-based |
| 21:45:28 | n17ikh | windows is giving me the old device not recognized thing |
| 21:45:54 | bluebrother | there's also no reason to not use 2-based :) |
| 21:46:12 | n17ikh | unplug it from usb, it has the writing icon on the screen but it's been sitting like that for 30-odd seconds |
| 21:46:16 | n17ikh | on the usb screen, still |
| 21:46:23 | rasher | bluebrother: Some might be confused by the i |
| 21:46:36 | gevaerts | You'd better reset it. It won't come back by itself |
| 21:46:45 | | Join mcuelenaere [0] (n=mcuelena@rockbox/developer/mcuelenaere) |
| 21:46:55 | rasher | mcuelenaere: Hello - I'm prodding the theme site |
| 21:47:10 | bluebrother | true, but if its not used people will never recognize the unit. Plus, I assume more people assume Byte-size to be 2-based |
| 21:47:20 | mcuelenaere | rasher: haven't done much with it lately.. |
| 21:47:22 | | Quit fml ("CGI:IRC (EOF)") |
| 21:47:25 | mcuelenaere | everything is in SVN |
| 21:47:28 | rasher | Excellent |
| 21:47:45 | rasher | my first mission is to remove the email-validation and replace it with email-confirmation |
| 21:48:12 | * | bluebrother is strongly in favor of using correct prefixes |
| 21:48:17 | mcuelenaere | admin also needs cleanups |
| 21:48:55 | n17ikh | ok, after resetting it and plugging it back in Vista asks me if I want to "scan and fix" the sdhc card, which I guess means chkdsk |
| 21:49:06 | rasher | bluebrother: Me too! I just think the binary prefixes are very rarely useful. |
| 21:49:08 | gevaerts | yes. You'd better let it do that I think |
| 21:49:12 | n17ikh | yeah, did |
| 21:49:26 | bluebrother | rasher: true, so spread the word! |
| 21:49:26 | n17ikh | actually, I did it through my card reader |
| 21:49:40 | | Join parafin [0] (i=parafin@paraf.in) |
| 21:50:16 | rasher | mcuelenaere: Also, you (or someone else) used a PHP 5.3.0 feature. That's probably not going to work on the server. It didn't even work on my Debian Unstable! |
| 21:50:30 | rasher | (third argument to strstr) |
| 21:50:31 | mcuelenaere | rasher: which? |
| 21:50:33 | mcuelenaere | oh |
| 21:50:39 | mcuelenaere | probably me then |
| 21:51:32 | * | mcuelenaere thinks you could replace it with a self-made function |
| 21:52:02 | mcuelenaere | rasher: see first comment at the PHP.net documentation page about that function |
| 21:52:20 | n17ikh | gevaerts: did it again |
| 21:52:43 | n17ikh | cut a directory from the microsd card, paste it onto my computer, it gets through one file and usb mode dies |
| 21:52:49 | rasher | mcuelenaere: I just did the obvoius way and used strpos and substr. Not exactly speed critical piece of code |
| 21:53:00 | mcuelenaere | k |
| 21:53:27 | mcuelenaere | is there any description/documentation about the target-specific code regarding PCM? (pcm-<target>.c) |
| 21:55:18 | * | gevaerts tries to think of a way to debug this |
| 21:55:32 | n17ikh | let me see what else, if anything, I can get to trigger it |
| 21:55:38 | n17ikh | like if it's writing or just deleting |
| 21:55:55 | | Join mirak [0] (n=mirak@81-66-70-98.rev.numericable.fr) |
| 21:55:55 | n17ikh | because I wrote files to the internal flash through rockbox just fine |
| 21:55:58 | n17ikh | didn't try deleting though |
| 21:56:12 | | Join jordoex_ [0] (n=quassel@d154-20-47-118.bchsia.telus.net) |
| 21:56:22 | gevaerts | It's unlikely to be anything specific at that level. It just reads and writes ranges of sectors anyway |
| 21:57:02 | kugel | hm |
| 21:57:11 | gevaerts | Could you test reading and writing to the internal flash a bit more? I'd like to know if that difference is real or just a coincidence |
| 21:57:19 | n17ikh | yeah |
| 21:57:29 | kugel | how about we just call this "Recognise numbers in filenames", with an on/off setting? |
| 21:57:42 | kugel | gevaerts, rasher, others: any opinion to that? |
| 21:57:46 | | Quit LambdaCalculus37 ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client") |
| 21:58:04 | rasher | That doesn't even suggest what it does, if you ask me |
| 21:58:07 | linuxstb | kugel: Doesn't it also apply to directory names? |
| 21:58:23 | kugel | yes, right |
| 21:58:37 | kugel | "Regognise numbers while sorting"? |
| 21:59:27 | gevaerts | kugel: I'm actually leaning towards this "intuitive sorting". It implies that it does something fuzzy that you probably won't entirely understand, which seems to be precisely what the setting does :) |
| 21:59:52 | kugel | hm, iirc we already had "number-aware" as a suggestion, which was just as controversial as the others |
| 22:00 |
| 22:00:18 | kugel | gevaerts: I'd go with that too |
| 22:00:24 | | Quit killan ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )") |
| 22:00:26 | kugel | I'm open to many names |
| 22:00:46 | * | linuxstb suspects kugel would be happy with any name, just to finally commit it ;) |
| 22:01:59 | kadoban | i thought that the whole point of the example lists was to _not_ have to come up with a name for the sorting? |
| 22:02:59 | evilnick_6 | "windows-esque fuzzy sorting" |
| 22:03:30 | gevaerts | Is increasing HZ on PP safe? |
| 22:03:38 | n17ikh | gevaerts: it's maddenly inconsistent |
| 22:03:41 | | Join Matze88 [0] (n=larischm@91-66-33-193-dynip.superkabel.de) |
| 22:03:48 | kugel | linuxstb: well, to be honest.... |
| 22:03:51 | gevaerts | n17ikh: in what way? |
| 22:03:58 | n17ikh | I copied, pasted, deleted, and moved dozens of files without anything happening and then it happens during one move |
| 22:04:01 | | Join killan [0] (n=nnscript@c-02fc70d5.06-397-67626721.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) |
| 22:04:10 | kugel | surely not any, but quite a few more before all these tiresome discussion |
| 22:04:22 | n17ikh | the original folder I was trying to move off the sd card I finished moving without incident |
| 22:04:25 | kugel | +than |
| 22:04:49 | n17ikh | picked a bigger folder, cut and pasted it elsewhere, and it gets through 24 of 44 mp3 files and then does it |
| 22:04:51 | kugel | kadoban: right, but now bluebrother complains on the task |
| 22:04:57 | kadoban | oh, i see |
| 22:04:58 | Matze88 | hi, anyone here has wiki write access? i just wanted to share my experience with CFModGuide - there is a sentence with the cheaper dealextreme IDE-CF Adapter ("This even cheaper one is available as of 12/03/08 and is slightly smaller than the first example given (1.97 in x 1.85 in x 0.2 in vs. 2.2 in x 1.89 in x 0.26 in). One has been ordered for testing. −− EricJorgensen - 03 Dec 2008 "). I ordered that one and successfully used it. m |
| 22:05:08 | gevaerts | n17ikh: internal or sd? |
| 22:05:10 | kugel | he apparently didn't notice all the discussion about using examples |
| 22:05:11 | n17ikh | sd |
| 22:05:29 | n17ikh | I couldn't get it to do it with internal, but I can keep trying |
| 22:06:05 | gevaerts | n17ikh: is the card inserted securely? Could there be a bad contact there? |
| 22:06:08 | midgey | Matze88: if you register for the wiki you can add that yourself |
| 22:06:20 | Matze88 | midgey: but i wont get write access when i register |
| 22:06:25 | n17ikh | it's inserted as securely as I can get it |
| 22:06:33 | | Quit kugel (Nick collision from services.) |
| 22:06:34 | midgey | just ask ;) |
| 22:06:36 | n17ikh | I'm not moving the player around while I'm doing this stuff |
| 22:06:38 | | Join kugel [0] (n=kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel) |
| 22:06:59 | n17ikh | I can read files off the card without incident, as far as I can tell |
| 22:07:14 | n17ikh | it's just right after deleting a file, very occasionally, it makes usb mode die |
| 22:08:10 | n17ikh | hah, it died during the chkdsk that time |
| 22:08:18 | n17ikh | must be writing that triggers it |
| 22:08:28 | n17ikh | windows refuses to believe it's gone |
| 22:08:35 | Matze88 | okay so i'm asking for write access now :-) My Wikiname is MatthiasLarisch. any more infos needed? :-) |
| 22:08:55 | kugel | yes, PIN of your credit card |
| 22:08:59 | Matze88 | ^^ |
| 22:10:09 | gevaerts | n17ikh: do you have a build environment set up? |
| 22:10:10 | kugel | Matze88: permission granted! Promise to not spam :) |
| 22:10:20 | n17ikh | gevaerts: no :/ |
| 22:10:25 | Matze88 | kugel: okay, i promise. thank you |
| 22:10:54 | gevaerts | n17ikh: ok. That just means that I'll have to provide test builds if I see something I guess |
| 22:11:01 | linuxstb | How about "Sorting algorithm: Alphabetical | ASCIIbetical" (inspired by http://weblog.masukomi.org/2007/12/10/alphabetical-asciibetical ) |
| 22:11:12 | n17ikh | let me see if I can get it to trigger on the internal flash |
| 22:11:15 | * | linuxstb suspects that might be hard to translate though... |
| 22:11:19 | gevaerts | linuxstb: that's totally misleading |
| 22:11:31 | linuxstb | Why? |
| 22:12:02 | gevaerts | Neither Alphabetical nor ASCIIbetical talks about numbers at all, and ASCIIbetical is likely to mean nothing to non-programmers |
| 22:12:09 | kugel | gevaerts: if we picked intuitive, people will probably wonder why it even is an option? |
| 22:12:36 | kugel | gevaerts: and non-programmers don't want that anyway -> problem solved :) |
| 22:13:04 | midgey | what was the argument against a name similar to Numerical Sorting? |
| 22:13:20 | gevaerts | n17ikh: is this e200 or c200? |
| 22:13:25 | n17ikh | e200 |
| 22:13:26 | linuxstb | gevaerts: The problem is that anything that mentions numbers makes people think it's just dealing with numbers, not strings with numbers in the middle. |
| 22:13:34 | n17ikh | I have a c200 I can try, if you'd like |
| 22:14:01 | gevaerts | linuxstb: I'd interpret Alphabetical vs ASCIIbetical as "how does it treat uppercase?" |
| 22:14:11 | gevaerts | n17ikh: that may be helpful |
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| 22:16:34 | kugel | gevaerts: uppercase is a seperate setting |
| 22:16:52 | kugel | or rather, case-insensitivity is |
| 22:16:59 | gevaerts | kugel: which is why ASCIIbetical is confusing |
| 22:17:59 | linuxstb | kugel: BTW, are you sure your fix to chessbox is right? The condition looks reversed... |
| 22:18:24 | kugel | lol, indeed |
| 22:18:38 | * | kugel slaps himself once more |
| 22:20:20 | kugel | "#if (MEMORYSIZE > 8) || !defined(SIMULATOR)" would be correct then? |
| 22:20:47 | shotofadds | mcuelenaere: I need to add an extra column to drivers/nand_id.c to tell the TCC nand driver how many blocks make up one logical unit - currently this is #ifdef'd depending on model (D2/iAudio7 vs. smaller targets), but someone on the forum has a D2 which needs runtime detection. |
| 22:20:55 | shotofadds | Do you have any objection to me adding this extra field, even if it ends up being TCC specific? I can't really see the point of #ifdef'ing it |
| 22:21:02 | n17ikh | gevaerts: I got it to trigger on the internal flash! but in a different way! |
| 22:21:21 | n17ikh | I moved about 1.1GB of files off the internal flash without a problem |
| 22:21:34 | n17ikh | went to move them back on, it gets a third of the way through and dies |
| 22:21:44 | mcuelenaere | shotofadds: sure, go ahead. Are you sure you can't generalise this? (there are OF'es who use a similar idea like this and have a lot of more data, like the TCC SDK for example..) |
| 22:21:51 | n17ikh | vista is saying the files don't exist anymore in the folder on my desktop, but I don't think that's the case |
| 22:22:13 | n17ikh | it thinks the sd card and the internal flash are still mounted, but there is nothing in them |
| 22:22:15 | jaykay | bluebrother: there are some // comments in your latest commit, i dont know whether this was wanted |
| 22:22:20 | mcuelenaere | shotofadds: oh, is this specific to the TCC FTL? |
| 22:23:45 | pyro_maniac | gevaerts: I get warnings of redefining USE_ROCKBOX_USB in the h10 5GB build. is there anything left to rework? |
| 22:24:01 | gevaerts | pyro_maniac: do you still define it yourself? |
| 22:24:04 | kugel | linuxstb: the simulator part should be removed too right? in SOURCES it was only because of the overlay, not because of the playback menu |
| 22:25:29 | shotofadds | mcuelenaere: yes it's probably specific to the FTL, but I wasn't sure about polluting the "common" nand_id.c with potentially target-specific stuff... btw. the existing nand_id table is is already similar to what the Cowon OF uses - I'm talking about extending it slightly.. |
| 22:25:41 | pyro_maniac | gevaerts: I got EXTRA_DEFINES=-DUSE_ROCKBOX_USB -DLOGF_ENABLE in the makefile. is this obsolete? |
| 22:25:52 | gevaerts | pyro_maniac: the -DUSE_ROCKBOX_USB is, yes |
| 22:26:58 | pyro_maniac | gevaerts: ok thanks |
| 22:27:13 | n17ikh | gevaerts: now I got it to trigger on a copy, instead of a move, from my computer to the internal flash |
| 22:27:17 | linuxstb | kugel: I think it should simplly be #if MEMORYSIZE > 8. But I also like fml's suggestion for a single define (FS #9958) |
| 22:27:31 | mcuelenaere | shotofadds: yes, I understand. well I don't really mind, one extra column isn't going to waste that much binsize :) |
| 22:28:19 | gevaerts | n17ikh: I don't really have any ideas. I'd like to see if you can reproduce it on c200, to try to isolate it a bit |
| 22:28:23 | n17ikh | ok |
| 22:29:58 | shotofadds | mcuelenaere: a couple of the fields could be changed to 'char' anyway which more than makes up for the difference |
| 22:30:16 | mcuelenaere | true |
| 22:31:26 | kugel | linuxstb: yes, I did that now (both) :) |
| 22:32:27 | | Part Matze88 |
| 22:32:42 | kugel | something is wrong with kkurbjun's commit messages |
| 22:34:51 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
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| 22:39:40 | n17ikh | gevaerts: I do have all kinds of warnings in my event logs |
| 22:40:01 | n17ikh | "An error was detected on device \Device\Harddisk6\DR11 during a paging operation." |
| 22:41:59 | bluebrother | jaykay: Rockbox Utility is written in C++, and comments are // in c++. So yes, this is correct and wanted. |
| 22:42:43 | Bagder | for the record, I don't really care about the sorting option name |
| 22:42:53 | BigBambi | me neither |
| 22:43:07 | * | kugel neither |
| 22:43:11 | kugel | at least not anymore.... |
| 22:43:21 | jaykay | bluebrother: ok, sorry |
| 22:44:06 | gevaerts | n17ikh: are those from the e200 tests? |
| 22:44:22 | n17ikh | gevaerts: yes |
| 22:44:24 | gevaerts | Also, can you get details for those errors? |
| 22:44:27 | n17ikh | I've got the c200 hooked up now |
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| 22:45:53 | n17ikh | gevaerts: I can save them to an event file and send it to you, that might be the best thing |
| 22:45:58 | | Quit MethoS- (Remote closed the connection) |
| 22:46:08 | n17ikh | if you can open up a vista event file |
| 22:46:09 | n17ikh | evtx |
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| 22:46:13 | gevaerts | n17ikh: probably not |
| 22:46:31 | n17ikh | actually, I can save them as csv or as tab-delimited |
| 22:46:35 | n17ikh | let me see what that looks like |
| 22:47:08 | n17ikh | oh, it's fairly useless, doesn't save details |
| 22:47:11 | gevaerts | If it has more information, I can use it, otherwise it just says that there was an error, and we know that already... |
| 22:47:32 | n17ikh | well, in "details", there is what looks like a small hex dump |
| 22:47:39 | n17ikh | I'm not sure what good that will do you |
| 22:47:51 | gevaerts | not much I think |
| 22:48:01 | linuxstb | How about "Sort numbers as text: Yes (03, 1, 10, 2) | No (1, 2, 03, 10)" ? |
| 22:48:40 | n17ikh | yeah, that's all the details there are |
| 22:49:00 | n17ikh | I actually have 13 of these, and they are "warnings" |
| 22:49:04 | n17ikh | I only have one error |
| 22:49:26 | n17ikh | but all the warnings say the same thing, more or less |
| 22:49:27 | | Quit jordoex_ ("bye") |
| 22:49:37 | gevaerts | Let's see what the c200 does |
| 22:49:41 | n17ikh | yeah, testing that now |
| 22:50:54 | kugel | linuxstb: not sure.. |
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| 22:52:19 | kugel | linuxstb: is "Recognize numbers while sorting" so bad? |
| 22:52:21 | kugel | because that's exactly what it does |
| 22:54:22 | kugel | natsort is number-aware, ascii-sort only digit aware |
| 22:54:46 | linuxstb | I can live with that. So the options would be yes/no with the examples? |
| 22:54:56 | kugel | yes |
| 22:55:09 | linuxstb | bluebrother: ? |
| 22:55:45 | bluebrother | ? |
| 22:56:36 | linuxstb | Read back a few lines - what do you think of that suggestion? Or do you just care about using something in the .cfg? |
| 22:56:53 | linuxstb | ^using something sensible |
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| 22:57:43 | bluebrother | sounds reasonable to me (and much less prone to misunderstanding) |
| 22:58:21 | | Quit florinp3 (Client Quit) |
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| 23:00 |
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| 23:04:28 | | Join florinp3 [0] (n=t@78.97.156.192) |
| 23:05:03 | florinp3 | hello everyone |
| 23:06:03 | florinp3 | I think I might have a problem with my fuze that's sort of related to Rockbox |
| 23:06:36 | florinp3 | I had my both my 1G Nano and my Fuze connected to my PC |
| 23:06:45 | gevaerts | rasher: I assume that WPS in "Start Screen is set to WPS" means "Resume Playback"? |
| 23:06:54 | rasher | gevaerts: yes |
| 23:07:12 | florinp3 | and used Rbutil to update Rockbox and bootloader |
| 23:07:37 | rasher | gevaerts: I wouldn't be surprised if setting it to recording screen or radio might have the same effect (but haven't checked) |
| 23:07:48 | gevaerts | rasher: it seems to work properly here |
| 23:07:48 | florinp3 | the problem is that I noticed afterwards that it had my Fuze selected instead of my Nano |
| 23:07:55 | | Quit bmbl ("Woah!") |
| 23:08:08 | bluebrother | florinp3: what's the exact problem now? |
| 23:08:08 | florinp3 | what does Install bootloader actually do? |
| 23:08:49 | bluebrother | it installs the bootloader. But the Ipod bootloader will only install on an Ipod, so no problem here. |
| 23:08:54 | rasher | gevaerts: Weird. Which target? |
| 23:09:06 | florinp3 | Rbutil updating the Nano bootloader to the Fuze |
| 23:09:10 | bluebrother | You'll have the build installed on the wrong player, but that isn't an issue either −− just remove the .rockbox folder |
| 23:09:40 | bluebrother | florinp3: again: the Ipod bootloader will only install on an Ipod. The mountpoint / drive letter doesn't have an effect on bootloader installation |
| 23:09:53 | | Quit {phoenix} (Remote closed the connection) |
| 23:09:59 | bluebrother | you *cannot* install an Ipod bootloader on a Sansa, even unintentionally. |
| 23:10:11 | florinp3 | ok, thanks |
| 23:10:27 | bluebrother | just remove the .rockbox folder on the fuze and reinstall the build on the ipod |
| 23:10:31 | florinp3 | I just wanted to double check before I remove the Fuze :) |
| 23:10:59 | gevaerts | rasher: e200. It's still running your test build though. |
| 23:12:03 | rasher | gevaerts: Weird. Err, try with a current build? |
| 23:12:58 | gevaerts | trying that now. Isn't the "try with a current build" line meant for the bug *reporter*? :P |
| 23:13:17 | | Quit evilnick_6 ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client") |
| 23:15:19 | gevaerts | rasher: still working fine. Official r20120 and bootloader from FS #9955 |
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| 23:16:13 | rasher | gevaerts: Okay, so. 1) Play music. 2) Shut down from within the WPS. 3) Plug USB cable. 4) I don't get a USB connection |
| 23:17:15 | gevaerts | rasher: I do exactly the same, except that in step 1 I play a radio show and not music. It works fine |
| 23:17:16 | mcuelenaere | any touchscreen user here willing to help me testing a patch? |
| 23:17:28 | rasher | gevaerts: This is absolutely mad. |
| 23:17:45 | gevaerts | rasher: what sort of music do you play? Big files, high bitrates? |
| 23:17:55 | rasher | Low bitrate vorbis |
| 23:18:00 | rasher | Q2 |
| 23:18:24 | rasher | Huh, this time it actually crashed right when it was about to play |
| 23:18:32 | gevaerts | This is low bitrate mp3 (32kbit) |
| 23:19:49 | n17ikh | gevaerts: I am unable to trigger the bug on the c200 |
| 23:19:52 | gevaerts | It does switch to the wps, but then it immediately switches to the USB screen |
| 23:20:13 | n17ikh | both with internal flash and with sdhc |
| 23:20:15 | rasher | Seems the screen is frozen while the cable is pluggined in. Unplugging makes it start playing |
| 23:20:33 | gevaerts | rasher: same here, except that it's in proper usb mode |
| 23:20:59 | gevaerts | n17ikh: are you using the same cable with both? |
| 23:21:02 | n17ikh | yes |
| 23:21:24 | gevaerts | I assume the OF never had this sort of issue? |
| 23:21:27 | n17ikh | same cable, same sd card |
| 23:21:29 | n17ikh | nope |
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| 23:21:34 | n17ikh | not that I ever ran across |
| 23:21:56 | gevaerts | Could you try on the e200 without the SD card inserted? |
| 23:22:00 | n17ikh | ok |
| 23:22:07 | n17ikh | shame I don't have a second e200 |
| 23:22:08 | * | gevaerts still doesn't have much ideas |
| 23:22:37 | n17ikh | could be it's something windows is doing |
| 23:22:56 | n17ikh | I'm not sure what kind of mangling it would be doing though that would cause that kind of a bug |
| 23:23:05 | * | rasher isn't running Windows |
| 23:23:12 | gevaerts | well possibly, but why isn't it doing it on the c200? |
| 23:23:25 | n17ikh | dunno |
| 23:23:52 | rasher | gevaerts: It really doesn't leave the wps |
| 23:23:58 | gevaerts | rasher: (switching to full-blown support mode :)) have you tried clearing your settings and checking the filesystem? |
| 23:24:16 | rasher | Boo |
| 23:27:14 | gevaerts | rasher: I can't think of anything else... |
| 23:27:33 | rasher | "differences between boot sector and its backup." |
| 23:28:02 | * | rasher flips a coin and copies backup to original |
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| 23:30:22 | | Quit tyfoo (Connection reset by peer) |
| 23:30:58 | rasher | gevaerts: now it's connecting.. :\ |
| 23:31:17 | rasher | Actually, no.. but it's at the USB screen |
| 23:31:31 | gevaerts | rasher: you did set the starting screen back to Resume playback, right? |
| 23:31:33 | rasher | Some timing thing? I had a rather large playlist last time |
| 23:31:51 | rasher | gevaerts: Yes |
| 23:32:12 | gevaerts | I guess it could be timing |
| 23:32:27 | rasher | This time it skipped the WPS and went to the USB screen, but no connection has been established ([271590.998770] hub 6-0:1.0: unable to enumerate USB device on port 1 |
| 23:32:34 | rasher | That message appeared in dmesg |
| 23:33:37 | | Quit florinp3 () |
| 23:33:50 | n17ikh | gevaerts: triggered almost immediately on the e200 |
| 23:33:56 | n17ikh | this time on reading |
| 23:34:00 | n17ikh | not writing |
| 23:34:15 | n17ikh | copied a bunch of files from the e200's internal flash without the sd card in |
| 23:34:16 | rasher | gevaerts: Rebuilt a large playlist, now it's stuck at the WPS |
| 23:34:27 | rasher | And I get "unable to enumerate" again. |
| 23:34:43 | n17ikh | and soon after I get "could not find this item", as windows thinks the file no longer exists |
| 23:35:28 | rasher | gevaerts: Err, with a playlist of one file, I still get unable to enumerate :\ |
| 23:35:47 | n17ikh | the e200, however, is not locked up |
| 23:35:51 | gevaerts | rasher: unable to enumerate should be totally unrelated to playback |
| 23:35:57 | rasher | gevaerts: But now it went to the usb screen |
| 23:36:49 | gevaerts | n17ikh: can you submit a bug report? I can't look at it any longer tonoght |
| 23:37:07 | rasher | gevaerts: Running short on ideas then |
| 23:37:09 | n17ikh | actually, let me try something else |
| 23:37:24 | gevaerts | rasher: a bit, yes |
| 23:37:27 | n17ikh | the e200 has an old crufty rockbox install and config file, maybe something is screwing it up |
| 23:37:39 | n17ikh | let me wipe the .rockbox folder and config |
| 23:38:30 | rasher | gevaerts: Plugging while playing works fine |
| 23:39:09 | gevaerts | rasher: I'm wondering if calling audio_get_buffer() while playback is starting could cause trouble |
| 23:39:17 | moos | gevaerts: Pandorabox :) /me missed the dance |
| 23:39:48 | rasher | gevaerts: Doesn't sound unlikely. Doesn't really explain why it's working for you though |
| 23:40:28 | gevaerts | rasher: if it's timing related things like filesystem fragmentation might come into play |
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| 23:44:20 | * | freqmod_gq updated the wikipedia article of rockbox mentioning that rockbox has usb support in the daily builds in the microSDHC paragraph |
| 23:45:15 | kugel | freqmod_gq: don't forget USB |
| 23:45:43 | freqmod_gq | it wrote USB |
| 23:46:02 | freqmod_gq | .... An external reader is required to put new files on the card as Rockbox does not yet have a software USB implementation in a stable release. An USB implementation is available in the daily builds and are scheduled for version 3.2 if no problems are discovered. ... |
| 23:47:03 | gevaerts | rasher: on re-reading usb.c and friends, I think that "unable to enumerate" could be caused by this sort of issue after all |
| 23:47:20 | gevaerts | freqmod_gq: "are scheduled"? |
| 23:47:29 | freqmod_gq | maybe planned? |
| 23:47:38 | gevaerts | "is scheduled" |
| 23:47:42 | freqmod_gq | ahh |
| 23:47:47 | freqmod_gq | yes, thank you |
| 23:48:18 | * | gevaerts still isn't as familiar with jhMikeS's new usb init sequence as he'd like to be :( |
| 23:48:20 | freqmod_gq | fixed |
| 23:48:49 | rasher | gevaerts: wouldn't it make more sense to detect usb even before the startup screen stuff is done? |
| 23:48:59 | | Quit jaykay (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 23:49:46 | n17ikh | so once USB is deemed stable enough, will the sansa bootloaders be rewritten to load rockbox instead of the OF when usb is plugged in when the player is turned off? |
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| 23:49:48 | | Quit mirak (Remote closed the connection) |
| 23:50:17 | kadoban | n17ikh: they already are, there are test bootloaders in FS (i think it's 9955) |
| 23:50:46 | n17ikh | oh, ok |
| 23:51:08 | gevaerts | rasher: maybe, but while that may make your issue go away it won't solve the bug. From what I understand you could trigger this by pressing play and plugging in at exactly the right time |
| 23:51:19 | rasher | True |
| 23:51:40 | gevaerts | so I'd actually like to keep it as it is to help reproduce it :) |
| 23:51:44 | freqmod_gq | btw. is the usb support for sansa able to write to the sd card? |
| 23:51:52 | BigBambi | yes |
| 23:52:33 | kugel | gevaerts: maybe this is the comment Nico_P left |
| 23:52:41 | gevaerts | kugel: ? |
| 23:52:44 | n17ikh | gevaerts: I think it may have been my config file or something old in .rockbox |
| 23:52:56 | n17ikh | thus far I have been unable to re-trigger the bug with a fresh .rockbox directory |
| 23:53:17 | kugel | gevaerts: "The bigger issue is that I'm not sure whether the audio_stop_playback call that happens on USB connect actually manages to close all the handles: if the buffering thread has acknowledged the USB connect before the audio thread, I guess the answer is no and I would even expect a deadlock." |
| 23:53:25 | gevaerts | n17ikh: which revision were you running previously? |
| 23:53:28 | rasher | gevaerts: Can't really say much more than "happy to test, and good luck!" |
| 23:53:51 | n17ikh | well, I installed 20112 today |
| 23:53:53 | gevaerts | kugel: ah yes. Yes, I think it's not unlikely to be related to that |
| 23:53:55 | n17ikh | not sure what I had before that |
| 23:54:12 | n17ikh | but I didn't wipe .rockbox, I just overwrote it |
| 23:54:23 | n17ikh | but wiping it and replacing it with 20120 seems to have fixed the problem, so far |
| 23:54:45 | n17ikh | I'm most of the way through writing 800 megs of files to the sd card, which would have triggered the bug previously |
| 23:56:15 | gevaerts | n17ikh: I don't really see how any remains of older installs could cause this, but OK. If you still see it, please file a bug report. Otherwise we'll assume that it was indeed caused by some weird remnants of the past |
| 23:56:29 | n17ikh | yeah. |
| 23:56:32 | n17ikh | I'll continue testing |
| 23:57:36 | n17ikh | I just figured the first step in making it reproducable would be to have a completely fresh rockbox install, and now I can't reproduce it |
| 23:58:22 | amiconn | kugel: This is one more reason why the acknowledging stuff needs to be serialized |
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icon identifies that the person is a core developer (has commit access).