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#rockbox log for 2009-03-14

00:03:02Unhelpfulpixelma: so, a reasonable mapping on ondio would be short press power for PF menu, long press quit PF, short press mode to select in album view, long press for context
00:05:04Unhelpfulit's not doing anything on context yet, but i think it best to get the mappings set in this patch, then add bindings to bring up the context menu later, without having to worry then about finding a mapping for it, and possibly remap other buttons
00:11:07Horschtok, seems i was able to sucessfully build the "database" tool. Only 2 major quirks:
00:11:26Horscht1. It only built a linux version, i'd need a windows .exe
00:11:50Horscht2. I don't know how to use it. It doesn't seem to have a help switch
00:12:40pixelmaUnhelpful: one problem with this is that I'd expect different mappings in the track list (as lists in core rockbox - context menu on long right, menu on long mode). But I imagine this mapping to work best in the album view which has quite a different way of scrolling...
00:14:13pixelmamaybe leave menu on long mode, and "up" for select (maybe additionally) and long "up" as context menu? As if the controls were rotated?
00:14:26Unhelpfulpixelma: the core mapping will still be there in track view, since both views' mappings inherit STD_CONTEXT. i'm inserting the new mappings in the track list, so that you can use the same buttons for both if you want to, but if the core select and context actions seem more natural to the user, they should still work in the track list
00:14:47 Quit bmbl ("Woah!")
00:15:01Unhelpfuli could do up for select, as well - iirc that's what ended up being used on ondio with the PLA-based keymap
00:15:42amiconnUnhelpful: After cleaning up my album tagging and preparing 100x100 bmp files, I ran some further speed tests of PF on my recorder
00:16:41Unhelpfulthe bitmap size should only change the cache build time
00:16:46amiconnWith 100x100, the cache build takes 7:50 (~230 albums)
00:17:32amiconnInterestingly, it still takes 5:00 when the bitmaps arent there, i.e. all the database querying is a significant part of the total cache build time
00:18:04pixelmaUnhelpful: I could imagine that to be working (different actions in different screens), perhaps it feels weird though to have it on different buttons in the same plugin, oth "up" just sounds so unintuitive to me until I start thinking "well, scrolling is rotated too". I guess only trying out both will tell
00:18:10 Join mrkiko [0] (
00:19:27amiconnThis is with plain SVN; I should try the multiplication patch
00:19:39 Quit ender` (" Pets are better than children because: 11. If they get pregnant, you can sell their children.")
00:20:32Unhelpfulup current does nothing at all in album view... i could always make up the select/context button in album view only, use right for select/context in track view only, and use menu/mode for select in either. that would pretty much cover every reasonable way you might expect it to work, and the user can use whichever of those buttons seems most natural.
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00:20:57Unhelpfulamiconn: i haven't even gotten around to making sure that that math works on the sim, although i'm reasonable sure it should.
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00:29:45pixelmaUnhelpful: the only reason I thought "up" was to free "long mode" for the main menu again but it seems you can't avoid one difference between the two screens (use of right to scroll and select/context) if the track list should be intuitive...
00:30:07 Join chrippa- [0] (
00:30:34*pixelma suggests rotating the track list too, not seriously ;)
00:30:36gevaertsbluebrother: could rbutil make use of an ipod-style SCSI extension with extra data, like the exact build revision and things like that?
00:30:53Unhelpfuli think context should be a long press on the same button as select, whichever button that is. if menu has to share an button, it should be with quit, not select or context
00:31:05gevaertsI mean something like only probably a lot shorter
00:31:05rashergevaerts: It already uses rockbox-info.txt
00:31:25gevaertsrasher: yes, but that could be from a different build if it
00:31:39gevaertsrasher: yes, but that could be from a different build if the DAP belongs to someone like me :)
00:32:01gevaertsOf course, maybe I'm not the exact user to optimise for
00:32:18rasherMaybe not
00:32:32bluebrothergevaerts: well, theoretically it could do that. I just have no idea how this would work on w32 and if that's another thing that requires root permissions on linux (I'd guess so)
00:32:36linuxstbI remember trying to find ways to implement that scsi command on the three main OSes - I was struggling...
00:32:40Horschtrasher, you pointed me towards the "database" tool earlier. I was able to build it, but it only compiles a linux binary, i'd need an .exe
00:32:53Horschtalso, how do I use the tool? it doesn't have a help switch
00:32:58gevaertsok. I'll forget that then
00:32:59rasherHorscht: No idea...
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00:33:05 Quit tarbo_ (Connection timed out)
00:33:17rasherHorscht: I've never actually used it.
00:33:26bluebrothergevaerts: how about putting the build info in the config.cfg file and write that to disk when connecting usb?
00:33:37Horschtok, thanks
00:34:11linuxstbbluebrother: Implementing that scsi inquiry would be nice for rbutil though - it would allow differentiating the 32MB/64MB ipods
00:34:35 Join wincent [0] (n=5b612bdf@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
00:34:39Lloreanlinuxstb: The OF reports the RAM size?
00:34:57linuxstbLlorean: Yes, see the URL gevaerts posted (search for RAM in that page)
00:35:20Unhelpfulit seems to work in my sim - you can use short off for menu, long off for quit, and any of right, menu/mode, or up to select, except that up is scroll in track view, and right is scroll in album view
00:35:30bluebrotherlinuxstb: true.
00:35:31Lloreanlinuxstb: If the iPod "knows" this about itself, shouldn't the information also be somewhere in the firmware image file?
00:35:47gevaertsLlorean: it can probe I guess
00:35:54 Part toffe82
00:35:56LloreanSo why can't we probe?
00:35:59linuxstbNo, there's just one firmware image for the 5.5g
00:36:09linuxstbLlorean: We can probe...
00:36:15LloreanSo why don't we?
00:36:16linuxstbOr rather, Rockbox can, rbutil can't.
00:36:20 Quit killan (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
00:36:45bluebrotherhmm, does 4G+ also include mini2G?
00:36:51LloreanThe 32gb build could just probe on boot, and update rockbox-info.txt, then on next update with util, the info file will tell which build to use.
00:37:07LloreanThen we drop the 32/64gb choice, always install 32, and have RBUtil check the .txt file before updates?
00:37:16Lloreaninstall 32 *first time* I mean
00:37:26linuxstbOr just implement that scsi inquiry...
00:37:34bluebrotherwell, I'd use config.cfg to store the data though
00:37:49gevaertsbluebrother: I'd expect so. 4G is PP5020 and mini 2G is PP5021
00:37:50Lloreanbluebrother: Well, wherever you'd store it. :)
00:37:52bluebrotherlinuxstb: can I sg_inq on linux as user?
00:38:32linuxstbbluebrother: I don't know. Possibly not...
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00:39:27pixelmaUnhelpful: what button calls the menu in track list?
00:39:48rasherbluebrother: Seems you can
00:39:55rasherI just did, at least.
00:40:03Unhelpfulthe plugin menu is always a short press on off, a long press exits
00:40:23linuxstbrasher: And what does "ls -l /dev/sdX" show?
00:40:40rasherbrw-rw−−−− 1 root floppy
00:40:50linuxstbAre you in the floppy group?
00:40:51rasherI happen to be a proud member of the floppy group
00:41:03 Join Raminios [0] (n=561b7a65@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
00:41:08linuxstbSo the answer is probably no then, for most installs...
00:41:10rasherBut through no action of mine, so it's likely most are?
00:41:13Raminioscan anyone help me?
00:41:37rasherWell, maybe. I guess I might have changed that
00:41:38linuxstbrasher: Maybe so then... I remember adding myself to that group in the past though.
00:41:49 Quit chrippa (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:41:51RaminiosCany anyone help me out?
00:41:56gevaertslinuxstb: if the permissions are the same as for the block device, it's fine. You need write access there for the bootloader anyway
00:42:13bluebrotherrasher: well, didn't work for me
00:42:16linuxstbgevaerts: Yes, but this is for a main Rockbox install, which doesn't need root
00:42:18LloreanRaminios: 1) Have patience. 2) Read the channel guidelines linked in the topic.
00:42:21gevaertsRaminios: that's not easy to say. We have no idea what your problem is
00:42:31linuxstbRaminios: 3) Ask a question ;)
00:42:41Raminiosim trying to get iboy on to my ipod with rockbox
00:42:43Lloreanlinuxstb: I *think* that's actually in the guidelines.
00:42:49Raminiosand when i try to use it the roms dotn appear?
00:42:52***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:42:53LloreanRaminios: Do you mean the Rockbox gameboy emulator? iBoy is the iPodlinux one.
00:42:56linuxstbLlorean: You mean you haven't read them? ;)
00:42:58 Quit wincent ("CGI:IRC")
00:43:04bluebrother4) interrupt discussions :)
00:43:05Lloreanlinuxstb: Sometimes they change when I'm not looking...
00:43:16bluebrotheror is that not part of the guidelines? :P
00:43:20linuxstb5) Make pointless lists
00:43:27Raminioswell i looked at a tutorial that said that iboy should work with rockbox
00:43:36gevaertslinuxstb: true, but this is mostly needed for the first install, which is *probably* the same run as the bootloader. Also we have the nice fallback of just installing the 32MB build
00:43:51LloreanRaminios: iBoy does not, and should not. It runs in iPodLinux. Please see the Rockbox manual for instructions on how to use our gameboy emulator.
00:44:00RaminiosI cant use your one
00:44:05Raminiosive got a mini which isnt supported
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00:44:28RaminiosAnd ipodlinux has shut its premade binary thing down which is annoying
00:44:30linuxstbRaminios: Then you will need to install ipodlinux (or if you're a programmer, fix our emulator).
00:44:32T-ManHaving trouble here.. hopefully some help
00:44:40Raminiosthats the thing
00:44:42gevaertsso how do you propose to run an ipodlinux program on rockbox?
00:44:43LloreanRaminios: Where on our website does it say the Mini isn't supported?
00:44:45Raminiosi cant install ipodlinux either
00:44:53LloreanOr do you mean Rockboy doesn't run on it?
00:45:05Raminiosthats what i mean
00:45:12linuxstbRaminios: We can't help you with ipodlinux though - this is strictly a Rockbox channel.
00:45:24LloreanWell, iBoy cannot run in Rockbox without rewriting the program.
00:45:31T-ManIm sure you've heard of this... I have a clone ipod.. Lisong Wilson .... 4 gb.. want to replace the firmware with rockbox.. this possible???
00:45:39RaminiosHow would i do such a thing?
00:45:42rasherT-Man: No.
00:45:44LloreanT-Man: No. Most clones are entirely different on the inside.
00:45:59linuxstbRaminios: Do what?
00:46:00T-Manso i'm stuck with it?
00:46:05bluebrotherT-Man: yes
00:46:11Raminiosrewrite the program
00:46:12pixelmaUnhelpful: that's what I meant when thinking about "mode" vs. "up" in the album view. In the track list I would expect menu to be on long mode, so if one uses "up" in the album view you can have long mode for calling the menu in both screens. And even if a short mode isn't used then, I'd at least expect long mode for menu to be working in this case because that's how lists work in the core (short menu is resume)
00:46:12T-Manno other firmware can replacet this firmware?
00:46:13 Quit robin0800 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
00:46:14LloreanRaminios: If you have to ask the question, you probably can't do it. A lot of the work is the process of actually answering that question.
00:46:38RaminiosSo is there no other way to play game boy with rockbox?
00:46:46bluebrotherRaminios: by using a text editor and a compiler
00:47:01RaminiosHow would i do that?
00:47:07pixelmaUnhelpful: at least additionally. But as you can see, I'm undecided...
00:47:45bluebrotherhmm, my mini2g doesn't like sg_inq -p 0xc0 :(
00:48:08LloreanRaminios: Remember that "patience" thing I mentioned right at the beginning?
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00:48:31gevaertsRaminios: the easiest way would be to fix rockboy to work on the mini
00:48:36T-Manso the firmware chip on the ipod close is different from the Ipod??
00:48:36bluebrotherhmm, using −−hex helps :)
00:48:43LloreanRaminios: You cannot play gameboy games without an emulator. You cannot get a working emulator on your iPod without solving the programming problems. You need to know C, at the very least, and how to program for Rockbox.
00:48:52Raminiosyeah i dont know if ive disconnected or anything
00:49:11Raminiosthis is the first time ive ever been on one of these things (llorean)
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00:49:22bluebrotherRaminios: patience. You could also experience a lag between irc servers
00:49:32LloreanT-Man: All of the hardware is different.
00:49:43Raminiosbluebrother: ^
00:50:00T-ManI figured the device are the same.. except for the firmware
00:50:18LloreanWe've never encountered one that is the same.
00:50:53midgeyi think I posted a patch to add rockboy for the greyscale ipods
00:51:08Raminiosmidgey: Oh?
00:51:09pixelmaRockboy on Mini would need two fixes - one is the graphics driver and the other is 1st gen Minis which don't have a "touch" wheel
00:51:18Raminiosim a 2nd gen mini
00:51:38midgeyFS #7546
00:51:50midgeyit's not complete and its been over a year since I've tried it
00:52:26RaminiosWhat do i do with this then?
00:52:36LloreanRaminios: You still need to be able to compile Rockbox.
00:52:36Raminiosall this text i mean
00:52:38midgeyapply the patch, and compile rockbox
00:52:38Unhelpfulpixelma: so you would suggest that the off button be used for dedicated quit, long press of mode for the menu, right for select/context in track list, up for select/context in album list? that's very close to what PLA would do, if the contexts had each only provided the actions that each view needed...
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00:52:59Raminiosbut i mean what do i do with the text??
00:53:11Raminiosim completely new to this so sorry if im useless
00:53:17LloreanRaminios: It's a patch. Learn to compile, read about what patches are.
00:53:40LloreanSearch for compiling in the Rockbox wiki.
00:54:01LloreanIt's possibly going to require at least *some* knowledge of C to get the patch cleaned up.
00:54:09RaminiosWhats c?
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00:54:22pixelmaUnhelpful: I'm not sure, I'd like to try both and see how it feels... as I said my first reaction was that "up" is unintuitive to select something - until you start thinking about it
00:54:59RaminiosOh and theres no compiling wiki
00:55:07Raminiosi searched and got nothing
00:55:33saratogadid you guys really just tell some guy who can't work a wiki to learn to program?
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00:55:49Raminiosah never mind
00:55:53saratogahonestly, that seems almost malicious
00:56:05RaminiosIm irght here by the way
00:56:14Lloreansaratoga: No, I told him he's going to need to learn to program to accomplish his goal.
00:56:18Raminiosim not a complete computer retard
00:56:29saratogayou should probably have told him he is incapable of accomplishing his goal
00:56:30Raminiosim just completely neew to rockbox
00:56:32LloreanRaminios: I didn't say to search for a compiling wiki. I said to search the Rockbox wiki FOR compiling. And I know that gets results.
00:56:45Raminiosso do i now :D
00:57:06LloreanNumber of topics: 33
00:57:13LloreanC is a programming language
00:57:17LloreanThe internet is covered in information about C.
00:57:53gevaertssaratoga: have you had a chance to try FS #10015 ?
00:58:09Raminiosis there no simple way for me to use this text that midgey uploaded?
00:58:23midgeynot really
00:58:27saratogagevaerts: sadly i've only been home for a few hours since you last asked me, i used them to sleep
00:58:37gevaertssaratoga: always wise :)
00:58:44BigBambiRaminios: That isn't "text", it is a source code patch, and no
00:58:56Raminioswell its writtne in words and symbols
00:59:29LloreanRaminios: Source code is written in words too. It's
00:59:45Raminiosi know, but the source code patch is written in text
00:59:58Raminiosi just couldnt be bothered to type source code patch
01:00:06Raminiosits too late and im tired
01:00:11bluebrotherit's a special format that holds the difference between two source files
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01:00:18bluebrotherit's called "unified diff" to be exact.
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01:00:25saratogahey can you guys take this to some other channel
01:00:33Raminioshow would i do that?
01:00:37BigBambiEverything is written in text in that it is symbols and words
01:00:49bluebrothercommonly known as diff or patch as that is the program that can apply a diff
01:00:53Lloreansaratoga: Well, getting started with compiling is kinda on-topic here when it's Rockbox compiling.
01:01:09saratogahonestly, compiling seems like it could go in community anyway
01:01:10LloreanRaminios: At this point though, you really need to stop and learn about the basics via the internet, and come back when you have questions about Rockbox-specific parts of it.
01:01:15saratogano need to log it
01:01:47Raminiosim learning now
01:02:05Raminiosim only ever going to use this source code patch anyway
01:02:15bluebrotherlearning ... 1% ... 2% ... 3% ...
01:02:28BigBambisaratoga: It has already been discussed many times and decided that support should remain in #rockbox, has it not?
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01:02:42LloreanRaminios: The point is, though, this channel here isn't to teach you fundamentals. It's here for stuff that only applies to Rockbox,.
01:02:50saratogayes but this isn't rockbox support
01:03:03Raminiosit was originally
01:03:12BigBambisaratoga: No, but compiling Rockbox is
01:03:15Raminiosi asked how to get game boy emulator onto rockbox
01:03:24amiconnUnhelpful: Looks like the math is working, but there is no measurable speed advantage. My two tests in fact show the opposite - 8:25 with the patch
01:03:28 Quit Thundercloud_ (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))
01:03:35bluebrotherwell, and you got the answer that you need to do programming work to get that done.
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01:04:11amiconnCould be uncertainties due to the fact that the .pfraw files might end up differently on the file system when they're rewritten
01:04:18 Quit Thundercloud__ (Success)
01:04:20mrkikoRockbox is not symbian - people needs to code cleanly... :)
01:04:35Raminiosis cygwin the best one to use?
01:04:53bluebrotherthe best to use for what?
01:04:59Unhelpfulamiconn: that's bizarre! the asm certainly looked like we were changing a call to the multiply routine into a single hardware multiply, i can't imagine how that can be a loss :/
01:05:02amiconnUnhelpful: Eh, ignore that, /me silly
01:05:16bluebrotherwell, it works.
01:05:35*amiconn built without the patch
01:05:53amiconn−−dry-run, then svn upped, the forgot to patch for real...
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01:07:08 Quit ze ("moving into new case")
01:08:14*linuxstb did that once when testing something for jhMikeS...
01:11:03saratogain codecs, is it bad form to pass the ci pointer into the depths of the codec library?
01:11:26saratogai'm wondering about requesting compressed audio from the codec buffer specifically
01:11:48linuxstbI would just declare it as a global variable in the main .c file, and reference that from the other files, if needed.
01:12:11Unhelpfulsaratoga: i believe it doesn't ever need to be passed, it's a loader-initialized global
01:12:20*linuxstb forgot that...
01:12:42saratogado have to declare it as an extern in each file then?
01:12:55saratogai can never remember how c variable scoping works
01:12:59*Unhelpful is pretty sure the codecs header covers that
01:13:30linuxstbsaratoga: Or extern in a commonly included .h
01:13:31saratogayou mean put hte header in more then just the main codec file?
01:14:00Unhelpfuli don't think you could reasonably declare it extern without including that header, anyway, since it's a massive/complex structure.
01:14:25saratogaUnhelpful: you're talking about CODEC_HEADER or just including codecs.h?
01:15:54Unhelpfulsaratoga: huh. i'm rather surprised to see it not declared extern in codecs.h
01:16:04amiconnUnhelpful: 8:15 now with the patch. Tiny speedup....
01:16:52Unhelpfulamiconn: probably still worth applying, i'd expect it's a tiny size savings as well. probably *not* worth coding that 16x32->32 multiply to use in the v-scaler
01:17:03amiconnI think the db search is killing it
01:17:46amiconnLooks like the album art search function sets up a new db query for each album
01:18:10*amiconn wonders whether Mr. tagcache has a better idea
01:18:46Unhelpfulany ideas how best to remedy? the tagcache is a bit of a mystery to me, when i tried to write code that touched it, the result had huge performance differences across my two targets
01:19:56amiconnBtw, the initial cache loading in PF takes about 20 seconds on the recorder when I don't scroll around meanwhile
01:20:24amiconnDunno how many slides are loaded
01:21:35Unhelpfuli'm not sure how big the audio buffer is, but the slide cache has a hard limit of 64 items, and i would be surprised if the audio buffer doesn't have enough space to fill it
01:21:59amiconnDisk starts spinning after I pressed 'Right' 35 times
01:22:28amiconnHmm, but when moving further, it starts again every other slide?
01:23:35amiconnThat's even independent of the direction...
01:23:36Unhelpfulyes, right now the cache is *always* kept centered when it's not pinned against one of the ends of the album list. i was working on changing that, but got a bit sidetracked by keymap stuff
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01:32:10Unhelpfulamiconn: right... the "right" way, i think, is to let the cache "float" until the center slide comes within a certain margin of the cache edge, and then recenter it in one big load.
01:32:16gevaertsWhat does Prefetch abort mean? i.e. where do I look for the problem?
01:33:05amiconnUnhelpful: Yes, perhaps even biased a bit depending on the direction the user is moving into
01:34:44Unhelpfuli don't know if that's actually needed, because if the user is holding the scroll button, it is unlikely the disk would *ever* get to spin down. the same goes for color targets with small plugin buffers, where the cache size will always be too small for a margin to be kept.
01:42:32amiconnNo, but if you're going slowly through the collection, the disk will spin down inbetween. And applying a bias will make it spin up less often, provided the heuristics are correct (user won't change direction too often)
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01:46:57Unhelpfuli checked with upscaling, as well, using a 16x16->32 multiply doesn't break either scaler, at least when i force the sim to use the same C math. i'll go ahead and commit the optimization, even if it's entirely hidden by query / file search delay right now :/
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04:21:48rasherZambezi: check the IpodAccessories wiki page
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04:22:26rasherZambezi: But note that many of the tested accessories were tested before Rockbox got any sort of support for the accessory protocol
04:22:36HelpMei need help
04:22:52HelpMedownloaded bootloader but wont detect ipod
04:23:09rasherWhich iPod, and what are you using to install?
04:23:21HelpMe5th gen 80gb
04:23:32HelpMei download the ipodpatcher
04:23:39rasherI suggest using rbutil
04:23:43HelpMesays no ipod found
04:23:51HelpMewhat rbuti
04:23:56HelpMeoh yeah
04:23:58HelpMei tried that
04:24:11HelpMei used auto detect and it stilll said no ipod connected
04:24:27rasherIs it formatted as fat32?
04:24:36HelpMehow do i check
04:25:14rasherNo idea, to be honest.
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04:28:39rasherHelpMe: What is the exact output of ipodpatcher, and which OS are you running it on?
04:29:06rasherPut the output on a pastebin
04:29:11soaprasher: if he has a mini, none of the remotes should work.
04:29:38soapas, IIRC, only the dock serial port is supported. But now that I say that something is itching the back of my brain.
04:29:42rashersoap: Ah, didn't notice it was a mini (nor did I know that those don't work)
04:30:19soapDon't the minis use the 4 pin remote socket next to the headphone jack?
04:30:48soapHelpMe: what material is the front of your iPod? Plastic or metal?
04:31:08HelpMeits 5th gen im positive
04:31:42HelpMeipodpatcher v3.0 with v3.0 bootloaders - (C) Dave Chapman 2006-2007 This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. [INFO] Scanning disk devices... [ERR] No ipods found, aborting [ERR] Please connect your ipod and ensure it is in disk mode [ERR] Please refer to the Rockbox manual if you continue to have prob
04:31:45soapHelpMe: what material is the front of your iPod? Plastic or metal?
04:32:16HelpMeplastic i think =/
04:32:27HelpMeim on vista alos
04:33:38soap5th or 6th?
04:33:48HelpMeits fifth
04:33:51soapAnd if fifth, are you running as admin?
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04:34:56soapipodservice.exe running?
04:35:18HelpMeuhm hold on
04:36:05soapituneshelper running?
04:36:39soapkill it
04:37:24HelpMepatcher still not working
04:37:37soapconnecting through a hub or a front usb port?
04:37:47HelpMefront usb
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04:38:22soapmove the cable to the back
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04:40:50soapand as soon as your player is detected by windows, in disk mode according to the iPod screen, and shows up as a drive letter try again.
04:40:55ZambeziI'm looking for a mp3-player, Rockboxsupported, with the possibilty to replace/add my CF-card and common, not refubrished. Any recommendation?
04:41:58HelpMesame results as before
04:42:56***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
04:43:30soapand what does RBUtil say?
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04:44:17HelpMehold on
04:44:21HelpMehold on
04:45:05HelpMeno ipod detected!
04:46:12soaprockbox utility −−> about −−> system info
04:46:21soappaste that to and post the link here.
04:48:40soapdang - I'm grasping at straws now.
04:48:52soapdid you try to manually pick your iPod mountpoint and iPod type?
04:48:58soap(with RBUtil)
04:49:12rashersoap: I don't think that'll help the bootloader install
04:49:30HelpMeyeah i tired
04:49:35HelpMestil didnt detect
04:50:22soaplinux stb and bluebrother will be in in the (european) morning. They are the creators of the respective software (space inserted to avoid pinging this late)
04:51:36HelpMewhat time is it there now
04:51:41HelpMe\im on est
04:52:46HelpMeok then =/
04:52:48soapregardless - let's check one last thing. Does iTunes recognize the iPod and does the Apple firmware work correctly?
04:52:55HelpMethanks for the help attempts
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04:53:20HelpMeyeah itunes detcts it
04:54:10HelpMeok thanks
04:54:18HelpMeill try to check tomorrow
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05:19:47insanepotatohello, can someone please inform me about the status of the beatbox plugin? i noticed that the copy from svn doesn't compile, and there is no flyspray
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05:51:26Lloreaninsanepotato: The status of SVN compiling can be seen in the build table...
05:52:40Lloreaninsanepotato: I wasn't even aware there was a "beatbox" plugin in SVN. What are you referring to, exactly?
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05:53:28insanepotatowhen i check out the source from svn, the plugin in apps/plugins/beatbox
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05:54:41LloreanThat one isn't supposed to compile, that's why it's commented out.
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05:55:52insanepotatois that due to lack of interest or because of something else? because i was thinking of posting a patch to get it working =D
05:56:19rasherinsanepotato: Lack of work put into it.
05:58:01insanepotatofrom what i saw, all that it needs to work is keymaps, and a few minor erros. i got it running on my c200 =]
05:58:28Unhelpfulwell, if somebody steps up to do the work, there might be a reason to not comment it out :)
05:59:01insanepotatoi'll make some keymaps =]
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06:10:42dmbhey, any of you familiar with the sansa e200 v2?
06:10:49dmbi'm trying to build the development version
06:11:00dmbcan't quite figure out how to put the build on the device though :/
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06:13:14insanepotatodmb: "make zip"?
06:13:28dmbinsanepotato, that makes a zipfile
06:13:38dmbthe AMS device requires a .bin file to replace the firmware
06:14:17insanepotatosorry, i thought it would be simple like other devices ^^"
06:15:10dmbyeh, this device isn't fully supported yet
06:15:16dmbinterested in development of it though
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06:22:15Llorean dmb: There should be instructions on the wiki pages for the AMS sansa targets. If you read through the thread and pages it should be explained somewhere.
06:25:29dmbi just found a 40 page thread
06:25:31dmbbut thats about it
06:26:31LloreanThere are also wiki pages about them
06:26:48dmbrasher, thanks, i missed that
06:26:55dmbthanks for the help both of you
06:26:56Lloreandmb: Remember, it's a development version. There's tons of work to be done, and you really should familiarize yourself with the various documentation to see where you can pitch in.
06:31:14rasherLooks like the AMS install method is similar to the coldfire irivers
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07:27:06midgeygevaerts: (for the logs) I've been messing around with your itunes work a bit more. If I use your work as is and pretend to be an ipod mini (changing ata.c config-ipod4g.h etc) it is not recognized as an ipod.
07:27:28midgeyAs soon as i change product to "iPod" iTunes detects the device but cannot read it and gets stuck
07:28:12midgeyunplugging the ipod gives the message "An iPod has been detected, but it could not identified properly. <snip>"
07:29:04midgeyalso, I dumped the xml info from my 4g since it's different than the one in your patch - it made no difference
07:29:48midgeyalso the OF and RB use different endpoints, but I don't think that matters. same with bcdDevice, but once again probably not important
07:30:12midgeyi'll check the logs tomorrow
07:31:14midgey(also this is on OS X 10.5.6, iTunes 8.1)
07:33:31rasherI'm pretty sure I was using iTunes 7.something
07:33:47rasherThough you'd think they'd act similarly
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07:45:06lucentkugel: Hi, I will attempt to review rockbox on 8gb fuze in March month, but not tonight
07:45:36lucentkugel: I am delayed by ext4 filesystem debugging and some other unrelated data loss problems
07:46:02lucent(for the logs)
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09:22:04linuxstbmidgey: Still around?
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10:09:17amiconnjhMikeS: Hmm, different clock frequencies don't change beast runtime at all??
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10:11:05pixelmahasn't that been reported for the Gigabeat F too?
10:11:33markunthat's what we noticed, yes
10:11:36*Unhelpful thought it didn't *actually* scale, yet...
10:11:58amiconnIt doesn't, but you can change the clock at build time
10:12:29*amiconn tested ape -c5000 at 528MHz this way
10:12:30Unhelpfulwhat about the core voltage? doesn't the hardware have the ability to scale that, as well?
10:12:35pixelmaI thought scaling was tried but not put into SVN because it didn't make a difference
10:13:46n1spixelma: yes that is true for the gigabeat F
10:13:48markunpixelma: we actually committed it, but reverted it later again. I always thought I just made a mistake somewhere.
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10:14:25amiconnIf clock scaling doesn't make a difference, it means that the stop clock is very efficient on those SoCs.
10:14:35Unhelpfulmaybe the CPU idles "better" than other ARM targets? so that it doesn't matter how fast it's running, so much as how much work it's actually doing?
10:14:59amiconnIt means that if we want to save more battery power, we have to add voltage scaling
10:15:50n1si hope we get voltage scaling because the battery time on the beast is pretty bad
10:16:05amiconnUnhelpful: I think those SoCs have separate clock generators for the core and the peripherals. Combined with an efficient idle mode you won't see a runtime difference
10:16:51*amiconn actually expects the same result on the AMS targets
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10:17:52*amiconn should perhaps measure beast runtime with -c4000 ape files
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10:19:04amiconnmarkun: Do you know whether the S3C2440 supports voltage scaling?
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10:33:40markunamiconn: I don't think it does. At least I've never read anything about it.
10:34:01markunI can check the manual
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10:41:26Unhelpfulamiconn: i would think that measuring runtime with varying CPU loads would give you a good idea of how efficient the sleep mode is. maybe a synthetic workload would be better, though? a calibrated busy loop + sleep(n) would let you load the CPU as much or as little as you want, in a way that should be measurable...
10:41:48markunamiconn: the only thing I found was "In the DVS(Dynamic Voltage Scaling) VDDi & VDDiarm can be supplied with 1.0V in Idle mode. Refer the Application Notes for detailed information."
10:42:10markunbut I don't think I have those Application Notes
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10:43:24markunamiconn: do you have the tools to measure the current directly instead doing runtime tests?
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11:02:53amiconnWell, there are no special tools needed, just a half-decent multimeter
11:03:24amiconnThe difficult part is to hook it up. Difficulty varies with target
11:03:41amiconnI did it on my 1st Gen
11:05:43amiconnWow, PF achieves 60fps on mini G2
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12:20:25jhMikeSamiconn: Maybe 10 minutes if you overlap the curves by voltage. Everything is written to keep the core asleep as much as possible so it doesn't seem too surprising (more MHz=finishes activity sooner and sleeps longer). It seems there's some rather substantial power suck since I can't imaging cutting power usage in half with the core alone.
12:27:32jhMikeSAlso, more MHz also doesn't improve disk speed except for Create, Open and Dirscan by 20%. No effect all for aligning any buffers. The major bottleneck is the disk itself now.
12:34:30markunjhMikeS: do you remember anything about voltage scaling in the Gigabeat F?
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12:38:49jhMikeSmarkun: No. I don't remember the manual mentioned anything.
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12:45:13gartralhmm.. the sponsor section of the main page only shows the rockbox team
12:45:46gartrali'm sorry, Rockbox Crew
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13:05:53jhMikeSamiconn: are those nop's in ata_read_sectors really needed? It's far less than 400ns for anything but a SH processor.
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13:09:13T-Mangot a question to ask
13:09:28bubsygo ahead
13:09:46T-Manit's about the firmware I have on my cheap clone ipod
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13:10:03T-Manany way I can take it out and replace it with a different firmware?
13:10:31bubsyif they supply firmware upgrades, then it should be easy to crack it
13:10:43bubsyI don't think firmware encryption is their first priority
13:10:55bubsyI mean hack it, not crack it
13:11:35T-Manknow any software or utilities that will do that?
13:11:36bubsyI doubt it's a known device, so its documentation may lack details
13:12:37bubsyI doubt it
13:12:42T-Manactually it looks just like Ipod.. im thinking it's either the same device except for the firmware
13:13:09bubsyI'm 90% sure it's different inside :)
13:14:11bubsythus the mapped addresses might be different, different hardware chips and so on
13:15:05bubsyyou see, since it's such a unknown device, I think people don't care to spend their days hacking it and supply a heavy documentation for it, so I guess you're out of luck
13:15:22bubsymaybe, but I can't tell
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13:21:18markunT-Man: a good start is to open it and make photographs of the chips so they can be identified
13:21:29markunand/or find a firmware update as bubsy suggested
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13:43:42linuxstbbluebrother: (for the logs...) ping
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14:08:02UbuntuxerThe game menus arent't translated. Why? I'm currently working on brickmania, but I don't know how to include translation.
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14:13:26PaulJamUbuntuxer: i think localisation for plugins isn't implemented yet. have a look at this page:
14:13:30bertrikUbuntuxer, games are plugins and plugins don't have translations yet AFAIK
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14:28:10BigBambiUbuntuxer: Plugin translation isn't currently supported
14:28:42BigBambier, it appears I've been offline (logs here I come)
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14:29:40BigBambiUbuntuxer: Anyway, it appears you have been answered - plugin localisation was a GSOC project last year that didn't get completed yet
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14:40:02*linuxstb has implemented the ipod Device Information in ipodpatcher for Linux and win32 - anyone know how to do "SCSI Inquiry" on OS X?...
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14:45:55linuxstbAny Windows users willing to test ipodpatcher's output of the ipod's XML info?">
14:46:21linuxstbIt's just a test at the moment - I would suggest typing "ipodpatcher −−list", and you should get an XML file printed to the screen, in the middle of the other info.
14:47:42bertriklinuxstb, does os x have the sg_inq utility?
14:48:27rasher ?
14:49:13rasherNot great news it seems
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14:51:09rasherhttp:// (pardon the awful link, but the page doesn't seem to exist anymore)
14:53:07*linuxstb finds
14:58:08*linuxstb wonders why Apple makes life so hard...
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15:29:16casainhohello :-)
15:30:08casainhoI would like to have opinions, about the idea of creating an external web site for Lyre DAP (old Rockbox Player project)
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15:39:32linuxstbcasainho: That sounds sensible to me - it's not really a part of the Rockbox project itself (which is just a software project).
15:39:49linuxstb(at least, the hardware parts of it are not - the software obviously will be.)
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15:42:59taylor_I'm looking at the forums lately..and it doesn't look like much progress has been made for the v2 sansas. i.e Fuze) Is this true or am I missing something?
15:43:51linuxstbYou should also look at the Rockbox SVN changelog, and the patch tracker.
15:44:08linuxstbBut no, there aren't many people working on the Fuze port.
15:45:26casainholinuxstb: other developers are suggesting to create the website... so, I guess we will do it.
15:46:04taylor_Thats too bad
15:46:25taylor_should have gotten a e200 :)
15:46:33casainhofor me software looks much more important... that's why we are now working on getting a first simple patch using the new name - Lyre.
15:47:18taylor_do you guys support nextar? or will in the future?
15:48:01casainhoanyone can suggest a way for we call it? Lyre DAP? Lyre Player?
15:48:12stripwax__Rockbox Lyre?
15:48:27casainhobecause DAP is just digital audio player, and we will record also...
15:50:37casainhostripwax__: we can't, please refer to this message from Rockbox:
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15:55:49rasherHow about using the hardware revision in the name? Lyre v1 or something like that?
15:56:05rasherI guess that gets old after a while
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15:57:41casainhowell, I would like that in the name we get the idea of what it does... that's why I think DAP is ok, but it also record sound, so, it is not just a player... maybe there is some good word for pass the idea of what it is −− I am not American or English, so, it's not easy for me...
15:58:21linuxstbcasainho: There is no easy way to describe it in English either.
15:58:58casainhoso maybe we will stick with the DAP: "Lyre DAP"
15:59:07rasherIncluding the function in the name seems a bit weird to me. Very very few do this
16:00:12robin0800casainho: music player/recorder
16:00:20casainhoor maybe we can use this phrase: "Lyre - digital audio player and recorder running Rockbox"
16:00:37rasherYes, as a catch phrase it's fine
16:01:00rasherBut as part of the product name, it gets weird if you ask me
16:01:20casainhorasher: okok :-)
16:01:47rasherThis is just an opinion of course
16:01:47casainhoso, maybe the catch phrase is the importante, and so the nme, just Lyre. :-)
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16:03:10casainhohmmm, and as robin said... −− music player/recorder or audio player/recorder ??
16:03:34linuxstbcasainho: For a domain name, maybe something like
16:03:47casainhoI prefer audio, but may not be better than music...
16:04:31casainholinuxstb: I will follow that idea to others ;-)
16:05:35casainhookok - I will now contine reading about the TLV320 DAC :-) bye bye
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16:08:30taylor_ - - little confused. Does this mean code has been run?
16:09:29linuxstbYes, we're happily running code on those devices, but that code isn't complete yet, and has problems/bugs.
16:09:58taylor_But at least it __HAS__ happened. And I can help out more if I buy a fuze?
16:10:33linuxstbSure. The more hackers the better.
16:11:36taylor_cool. Im going out today. I might go to Staples and pick up one ;)
16:15:55taylor_does anyone know - as I dont have much research..... Is the firmware encrypted in the fuze v2? and does it have a DFU?
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16:17:35rashertaylor_: and its sub-pages explain a good deal
16:18:00rasherOther than that, I think flipping through the forum thread is most valuable
16:18:44taylor_rasher: thats very valuable, thanks
16:18:58taylor_I'll have to be careful I won't brick it
16:21:13taylor_But if the rockbox GUI has already been ported, I can probably launch code from the menus and be safe
16:21:32linuxstbtaylor_: It's pretty safe, unless you make a mistake compiling/installing the bootloader (which is quite hard to do)
16:21:42linuxstb(I mean, it's quite hard to make a mistake doing that)
16:22:25taylor_I If I do get one...I will definately have one of you step me through the process!
16:22:58linuxstbBut no, there's no kind of built-in recovery mode available on the fuze. There is one on the e200v2, but that requires physical disassembly and shorting two pins...
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16:25:29linuxstbHmm, seems the name Lyra is already taken...
16:25:40rasherIsn't it Lyre anyway?
16:25:42*linuxstb realises he misspelt lyre...
16:25:59linuxstb;) I knew Lyre sounded familiar though...
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16:28:08taylor_MTABLE.SYS.fuze8gb.bz2 (39 kb) Im guessing thats the bootloader?
16:28:27linuxstbtaylor_: I would suggest reading the Rockbox wiki, not guessing...
16:29:07linuxstbSpecifically, the page rasher linked you to about 10 minutes ago.
16:29:18Bagder"It really isn't very good."
16:29:25Bagderalmost golden quote material
16:32:47taylor_I strongly disagree with that statement
16:33:23taylor_If he/she wants a better GUI then they can write it themselves ;)
16:35:17BigBambiThe problem is improving the UI without losing the options and flexability
16:35:41BigBambiMost of the time "more intuitive" means "remove most of the options and use it how I think you should"
16:36:00linuxstbgevaerts: Any thoughts about implementing that scsi inquiry stuff for real? I've started work on implementing it in ipodpatcher, but that could get confusing if Rockbox USB doesn't provide the info ipodpatcher wants.
16:36:07taylor_Yeah. Well thats just 1 persons opinion
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16:36:26bertrikI do think the rockbox menus look a bit "techy" and not very spiffy
16:36:34taylor_I still think it is a very good alternative OS
16:36:37archivatorMy only concern with the Rockbox GUI is the lack of multifont but I realize how large a task that is, so I don't complain..
16:36:45gevaertslinuxstb: for ipodpatcher purposes I guess a very slimmed down version would be sufficient?
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16:37:02linuxstbgevaerts: Yes. I'm just intending to use it for the RAM size for the Video.
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16:37:13BigBambitaylor_: Well clearly so do we, but there is always room for improvement
16:38:02linuxstbgevaerts: And I guess I'll probably just do a "strstr" to search for <RAM>, rather than any real XML parsing.
16:38:24gevaertslinuxstb: ok. It should be doable then without too much overhead (a few hundred bytes?)
16:38:49linuxstbgevaerts: I guess the question is do we want to implement enough for itunes to be happy?
16:39:39linuxstbCan the Rockbox USB stack grab about 10KB of RAM somewhere to create this XML dynamically?
16:40:07linuxstbI guess it will still need some kind of description of what to create though...
16:40:15gevaertssure. It grabs the audio buffer but it only uses 32 to 130k of that (depending on whether you have FS #10015)
16:42:42gevaertsI'm undecided about whether we want real ipod emulation. For non-ipods I'm pretty sure it isn't worth the hassle (fake USB IDs, fake partition tables, ...), and on real ipods I'm not sure if we can get it good enough to fool all versions of itunes reliably
16:42:46taylor_Yes I know. But people need to keep in mind that this is a __non-profit__ project and just because someone wants something doesn't mean you can just make it happen in two seconds.
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16:43:25linuxstbgevaerts: I'm not sure there's much more to it than that scsi inquiry. Rasher's problems last night seemed to be because a) he was using a Sansa; b) he didn't have the iPod_Control folder created.
16:44:09gevaertslinuxstb: yes, but OF restores still fail. Maybe not a major issue, but it's still there
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16:44:19linuxstbThey do?
16:44:27gevaertsIIRC yes
16:44:43linuxstbIIUC, an OF restore is simply "dd'ing" the firmware to the firmware partition.
16:44:51rasherIs that a problem? If you want to update the OF (and are actually running an ipod...) you can boot the OF?
16:46:07linuxstbIIRC, ipods in the OF will reboot on disconnect if the firmware partition is written to in UMS. Maybe it's related to that.
16:47:24rasherOh dear
16:47:57linuxstbrasher: ?
16:49:18bertrikBagder, gevaerts' name needs another e in the article
16:49:28gevaertsah yes
16:49:34*gevaerts didn't even see that...
16:50:43taylor_At least I can dual boot with OF so there should not be many troubles
16:51:22bubsyhehe, apple might get pissed
16:52:14gevaertswell, as long as it's only on ipods I don't see why they would care
16:52:16taylor_bubsy: hmm?
16:52:36gevaertsAnd doing this on non-ipods is just silly IMHO
16:52:58bubsytaylor_: reverse engineering the protocol
16:53:12bubsy... ok, we already reverse engineered quite much of the iPod, heh
16:53:34taylor_Except the new ones still remain "untouched"
16:53:43gevaertsGetting an XML file using a SCSI INQUIRY command isn't rocked science...
16:54:33archivatorAre you kidding, that's the best Apple could come up with? Jeez, that's just.. wrong.
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16:55:26taylor_Well, considering that the ipod crashes with a notes file with more than 255 bytes in a link, you could say they've made some pretty sloppy choices :p
16:56:32rashergevaerts: Why do you think doing it on non-ipods is silly? Having the "convenience" (in the eyes of some people) of iTunes without being tied to specific hardware would be swell (again, for some)?
16:57:19taylor_I dont get what the point of using itunes with rockbox if you can just drag and drop music on the flash?
16:57:59gevaertsrasher: it's very few people (I hope!), and it's extra complexity (fake USB ids, fake partition tables, whatever).
16:58:15gevaertstaylor_: to prove that it can be done!
16:58:18rashertaylor_: some (I'd hazard a guess and say most) people prefer a syncing app over drag and drop
16:58:58taylor_I suppose. How did you do that though? itunes writes to an encrypted itunesDB on the flash?
16:59:05archivatorrasher: the moment they connect to iTunes, the player should display a list of OSS syncing apps. Then, it'd be useful.
16:59:23gevaertswe don't care about the itunesDB, so it can write to that as much as it likes
16:59:34rasherarchivator: Because you get to decide which apps a user should use?
16:59:41*rasher thinks this is just bone-headed elitism
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17:00:29taylor_so rockbox contains an itunesDB file to mimick the ipod?
17:00:38archivatorrasher: of course not. That was said tongue-in-cheek, just thought you might appreciate the irony. Oh, well.
17:00:51rashertaylor_: The disk has one. Rockbox doesn't care about it
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17:01:47taylor_I get it: "hacked itunes" −−−−> itunesDB −−−−−−> rockbox reads itunesDB. correct?
17:02:02BigBambiintunes isn't hacked in any way
17:02:09taylor_hold on
17:02:14BigBambiAnd Rockbox never reads the itunes db
17:02:34taylor_Itunes writes to itunesDB. But rockbox doesn't care about that and reads the mp3s instead?
17:03:04BigBambitaylor_: If you want to hack on Rockbox you should probably read up on it a bit :)
17:03:07taylor_gutcha. Im just trying to understand this all
17:05:24taylor_So how did you get itunes to recognize the Sansa with rockbox?
17:05:30rashergevaerts: I think you underestimate how high regard some people have of iTunes. Of course, I might be overestimating it.
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17:05:46rashertaylor_: by acting like an ipod
17:05:49BigBambirasher: I think you are sadly right
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17:06:56gevaertsrasher: if you can get it to work without the firmware partition (and with the standard sansa partitions), you might be able to convince me, although I still won't like the idea of using ipod USB ids on non-ipods
17:07:12taylor_Thats descriptive :P rasher: People should use gtkpod :)
17:07:41BigBambiPeople should use whatever they want, not what somebody else decides
17:07:43gevaertsIf we have to do all sorts of weird things with the disk, I don't think it's worth it
17:08:06gevaertstaylor_: has all the info we used to do this
17:08:20rashergevaerts: Perhaps the firmware partition isn't even needed?
17:08:50gevaertsrasher: that's the big question. If it isn't, this is a lot more practical
17:09:53taylor_gavaerts: thanks. @BigBambi: I know, I just persnally think GtkPod is faster and easier to use, but, as you said, its other people's decision
17:12:52linuxstbThere could be some useful changes we could make to the XML though. e.g. if a user uses itunes, but not the OF, we can reject Audible files, and DRM'd AAC.
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17:14:19taylor_That XML is very useful. linux4nano-dev has done much work with that file.
17:14:52taylor_We have also figured out which chip on the motherboard we are close to _sure_ decrypts the code at runtime
17:15:26linuxstbtaylor_: Huh? Are you sure you're talking about the same XML? How can it help with running code?
17:16:31taylor_I think you got the two mixed up; sorry. XML and the chip are two separate things. I meant we found the chip that decrypts the firmware. The XML is separate.
17:17:00BigBambiOf course they are - XML is a markup document...
17:17:30BigBambiHave you read the page gevaerts linked you to?
17:17:38taylor_thank you
17:17:49BigBambiSo it is nothing to do with any hardware
17:17:52taylor_I know about the XML. I didn't know it was used for that purpose though
17:18:04taylor_YES I __know___that
17:18:13linuxstbtaylor_: What did you mean with "That XML is very useful. linux4nano-dev has done much work with that file." ?
17:18:17BigBambiSo how does it help with running code?
17:18:24taylor_I just put two and two in the same sentence
17:19:03taylor_Im sorry., I think I totally messed you two up. Give me a second to re word this so it makes sense
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17:20:34taylor_We worked with this XML (how iPL got the info). But that doesn't have to do with the chip. I put both statements in one thought so it sounded like they both had to do with each other, sorry.
17:20:50taylor_the XML can NOT run code
17:20:59BigBambiwell clearly
17:21:26taylor_unless of course, there was a buffer overflow in the markup code. But of course even then it would be useless!
17:21:31rasherWell, there's good news and bad news. My SD card with just a single fat32 partition *is* detected as an ipod, but it tells me it's in recovery mode, so it must check the partitioning somewhat
17:21:39rasherQuestion is how much, I guess
17:22:15taylor_SD cards are formatted differently than the ipod
17:22:26taylor_you will need to format it using the HFS+
17:22:30BigBambiyes, we know
17:22:40rasherPlease don't go off on things you have no idea about
17:22:42BigBambiNo you don't
17:22:56BigBambiAnd the format is nothing to do with the partition layout
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17:23:29taylor_Wait a second...whose talking to who here? You need to direct your comments with name:
17:23:43linuxstbtaylor_: Who was that directed to?
17:23:47BigBambitaylor_: The whole point of this is to see if itunes will recognise a sansa as an ipod based on USB fiddling and not also on the partition layout
17:23:54BigBambitaylor_: I was talking to you, as was rasher
17:24:02taylor_Ok thank you
17:24:15rasherI guess "a single partition" looks like recovery mode, so there needs to be something that looks like the firmware partition. I wonder how little we can get away with
17:24:38BigBambiCan you fake that via USB?
17:24:48taylor_You should be able to
17:25:03rasherBigBambi: Depends what iTunes does with it, I guess
17:25:07taylor_It depends on which "ipod" you want it to recognize as.
17:25:17taylor_They all have different partition structures
17:25:30BigBambitaylor_: That doesn't matter here
17:25:41BigBambirasher: yes, if it is just to identify then OK
17:26:10taylor_Well, no I guess it doesn't, but you still need to make it look like a valid ipod. I would start with splitting the SD card into two partitions to replicate a 2g
17:26:27BigBambitaylor_: WE DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO DO THAT
17:26:42taylor_Well then, you CANT DO IT THEN!!
17:26:49BigBambitaylor_: Please read back, you are continually missing the point
17:26:54taylor_Unless you modify itunes
17:27:08*BigBambi gives up
17:27:18taylor_HOLD ON A SEC , please
17:27:20*stripwax suggests everyone takes a step back and a deep breath
17:27:46taylor_First of all, you need to give EVRYONE some credit because talking online isnt the easiest thing to do
17:28:24taylor_Ok, lets start back. We are trying to have iTunes recognize a mp3 player with a SD card as an "ipod" correct?
17:28:45unknownWhat is the status of the Sansa Fuze? the wiki doesn't seem uptodate and the svn log says something about fixing the scroll wheel
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17:29:45rasherGREAT SUCCESS
17:30:03rasherA tiny empty partition at the end of the disk (or anywhere, I bet) is enough
17:30:07rasherOf type 0
17:30:26rasherShould be perfectly possible to fake
17:30:40krazykitunknown, the wiki, svn, and forum thread have all the latest information. the status is "not ready for general users" and will continue to be so until noted on the front page
17:30:43BigBambiAnd it doesn't try to write to it?
17:30:53rasherBigBambi: Seems not
17:31:02BigBambiThat's nice
17:31:13rasherI only made it half a megabyte
17:31:29taylor_And it works 'AOK' ?
17:32:01rashertaylor_: Yes.
17:34:00rashergevaerts: iTunes appears to check at least the following: 1) SCSI inquiry stuff 2) File structure 3) The existance of a firmware partition (which can be anywhere and any size, it seems, and doesn't need to contain anything)
17:34:13taylor_We should add this to linux4nano wiki. However, it doesn't really help in the matter of hacking anything
17:34:24taylor_but still interesting
17:35:50BigBambifeel free
17:36:19taylor_It just proves how "hackish" itunes security check is
17:36:33rasherIt's not really a security check of any kind
17:37:01rasherJust a general "is this an ipod" sanity check
17:37:16taylor_Well, when I mean "security" I mean "valid ipod check"
17:38:03rasherBeing more strict would just lead to more people having their valid ipods rejected. I think it's a reasonable amount of checks.
17:38:37unknownkrazykit: and for non-general users?
17:38:51taylor_this is useful for iPL users too
17:39:16BigBambitaylor_: This is #rockbox
17:39:19rashergevaerts: And of course the USB vid/pid and vendor/product stuff - I don't quite remember if all of that was needed before iTunes would even fire off the scsi inquiry, but I believe it was?
17:40:00taylor_BigBambi: Yes. I know??
17:40:27krazykitunknown, unless you're planning on developing, it's not ready even for testing
17:40:51taylor_BigBambi: What do you mean?
17:40:59BigBambiSo please stop with the off-topic remarks like "We should put this on x wiki" and "this'd be useful for x" - it isn't relevant and is off-topic
17:41:44gevaertsrasher: we added a bunch of things at once, so maybe it is worth testing disabling things one by one. Maybe iManufacturer/iProduct is enough and vid/pid doesn't matter?
17:41:57rashergevaerts: Possibly. Let me try.
17:42:01taylor_Well, I am talking about the same thing as everyone else, so I guess you could say this is "on-topic"
17:42:41BigBambitaylor_: It only is if related to Rockbox, so please confine it to that
17:43:10taylor_The more people who know, the better. Yes, I know, and obviously if I every put something on the wiki we would credit 'you'
17:43:59BigBambiI'm not bothered about that, this channel is logged for support and development, so we keep it clear of anything not related. Something we are failing at now. Please respect our guidelines
17:44:20BigBambitaylor_: ou can put it where you want, you just don't need to announce your thoughts here
17:44:55taylor_Ok, I apologize
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17:46:45unknownkrazykit: ok, no time for developing :( thanks for the info
17:46:55taylor_regarding any of the mp3 players rockbox has been ported to. I am sure at least one contain an encrypted firmware?
17:46:56rashergevaerts: vid/pid seems to be needed.
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17:49:16rashergevaerts: weird, it still does the scsi inquery, even with the wrong vid/pid, but it doesn't show up in iTunes
17:50:18gevaertsrasher: interesting...
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18:07:01rashergevaerts: think it's worth collecting different ipods' inquiry responses?
18:07:29rasherDidn't ask you.
18:07:30taylor_actually..its too bad we can't see what itunes is doing?
18:07:37LambdaCalculus37taylor_: rasher was asking gevaerts.
18:07:42LambdaCalculus37Let gevaerts answer.
18:08:27taylor_Yes, I know, its just my opinion. No one told him he had to listen to me. Everyone relax.
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18:13:22n00byHi y'all −−- when will the fuze be supported?
18:13:43taylor_Oh man...that question has been asked SOO many times :) lol
18:14:06rashern00by: Impossible to predict.
18:14:18taylor_n00by: The bootloader has been ported, but there are still many kinks to work out
18:14:22rasherCould be a month, could be never.
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18:14:41taylor_Take a look at that, n00by
18:18:16n00byAnyone heard of n00b81?
18:19:07LambdaCalculus37n00by: No, and keep it on-topic.
18:19:33n00byHe found a 'overflow' or something in the notes? is that useful?
18:19:40taylor_n00by: no
18:20:02LambdaCalculus37n00by: Are you talking about someone in #linux4nano-dev?
18:21:35taylor_n00by: thats me. and no, its not useful, sorry
18:21:44taylor_my old 'nick'
18:22:44n1staylor_: i'm curious, how did you come to the conclusion that this notes bug can not be exploited?
18:23:00taylor_We dont have a mem dump
18:23:13taylor_Its impossible to brute force 4 billion return addresses
18:24:37taylor_we don't even know if it is a BOF
18:24:45taylor_without a debugger its sort of useless
18:25:38saratogayou mean disassembly right?
18:26:03LambdaCalculus37I thought someone had been attempting to disassemble the firmware already.
18:27:42taylor_Yeah we all were. But tracking down 400 statically linked functions is not an easy task!
18:28:24taylor_n00by: hard to tell
18:28:25n00bySo you think ipods 3g and 4g will never have rockbox?
18:28:47taylor_n00by: who knows
18:29:39taylor_my guess is 'no'
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18:31:16taylor_I guess that made him upset ;)
18:31:40saratogataylor_: what device is this?
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18:31:59taylor_You mean the ones that are affected?
18:32:19saratogathe one you dissassembled
18:33:06taylor_or 5.5g
18:33:38taylor_both have the problem. Actually ALL have the problem. But you can't obviously dissasemble the 3g nano or 4g :)
18:34:04taylor_we picked 5g because it crashes the same way as the 3g and 4g nano
18:34:20saratogaso what did you mean by "We dont have a mem dump"?
18:34:44taylor_When I mean mem dump, I want a whole dump of the corrupt registers
18:34:56taylor_like with PSP-link (for the psps)
18:35:06taylor_essentially a "debugger" or emulator
18:35:11taylor_both we don't have
18:35:40saratogayou can probably get that from an ipod since we can run code on them but i'm not sure how thats going to help
18:36:03taylor_It would help, BadBlox made a mem dumper, but only for the games area
18:36:20saratogait sounds like you need to dissassemble the firmware, find the fuction that overflows, and see if you can exploit it
18:36:28saratogadumping the program state is unlikely to help you with that
18:36:35taylor_It would
18:36:57taylor_looking through the firmware of thousands of functions? thats just not realistic
18:37:10saratogayou'd have to find the function first anyway
18:37:33taylor_thats the problem
18:37:41taylor_we believe it occurs in strcpy()
18:37:43saratogaso how would dumping the state help you at all?
18:37:59taylor_it would let us know if a return address has been overwritten
18:38:11taylor_or a stack pointer
18:38:59saratogaoh you mean once you've found the program and confirmed theres an exploit?
18:39:01taylor_stack pointer. Points to stack.
18:39:08saratogai suppose it would be helpful to debug your hack
18:39:36saratogawell once you get that far you can probably inject code into the apple firmware to do that
18:39:51taylor_As I've said before, it would at least be a little comforting to know it __IS__ exploitable before we spend a great deal of time
18:40:59taylor_We haven't found anyone really interested in helping us (yet)
18:41:11taylor_As we all are not ARM experts
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18:47:01gevaertsrasher: maybe it would point to patterns, yes. You never know what it's good for
18:50:08saratogaare rockchip players ARM?
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18:53:05rasherRbutil says that the "complete installation" will install a current build. It doesn't, it installs a release version.
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18:56:13LambdaCalculus37saratoga: IIRC they are.
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18:56:24LambdaCalculus37I know the Actions chipsets have a Z80 core.
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19:45:35FlynDiceCan someone save me some time here real quick. How do I pass the value in r0 back to the main c program at the end of some asm?
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19:48:17rasherlinuxstb: I have absolutely no idea where to start
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19:49:23linuxstbFor non-community people - ipodpatcher is failing to compile on 64-bit linux with
19:50:05linuxstbIt looks like uint16_t for some reason...
19:50:25rasherDebian Unstable, specifically
19:50:50linuxstbipodpatcher uses stdint.h - maybe it should be inttypes.h ? I never know the difference...
19:51:35linuxstbHmm, it seems inttypes.h should include stdint.h - so maybe changing to inttypes.h is correct.
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20:02:29casainhohello :-) −− ca nsomeone please explain to me what is: clean_dcache_range(start, size); ?? on pcm-meg-fx.c ?
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20:03:46bertrikI guess that makes sure that any cached data from that specific range is discarded from the data cache
20:05:57casainhohmmmm... data cache? is something specific to ARM?
20:09:02casainhoso, do I really need to do that clean data cache?
20:09:03jhMikeSit flushes out any pending writes in that range to that physical memory contents are coherent for DMA transfer
20:09:21linuxstbbluebrother: I've started work on implementing in ipodpatcher. Linux is working, win32 is written but untested, OS X appears to be hell...
20:09:45bluebrotherlinuxstb: oh. I could test windows later I guess
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20:09:53LambdaCalculus37I could try out OS X later.
20:10:05pdesjardinsany one can help me with Voice option with RockBox?
20:10:07linuxstbbluebrother: My intention is just to add a "ramsize" field to the ipod struct - so rbutil can differentiate the 5g/5.5g builds.
20:10:22linuxstbLambdaCalculus37: You would need to implement it first...
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20:10:42bluebrotherthat would be nice. Any other useage for that inquiry thing in ipodpatcher?
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20:11:06LambdaCalculus37linuxstb: I'll see what I can do.
20:11:15bertrikcasainho, have you been able to get your lcd_update routine optimised?
20:11:23linuxstbNot really. Although it allows more reliable detection of devices, so I may be persuaded to implement restore features
20:11:29bluebrotherisn't there a similar API on osx? At least in the past OS X was much more similar to linux than windows :)
20:11:43bertrik(so it can also do partial screen updates instead of always full screen updates)
20:11:48casainhobertrik: no, I am working on audio DAC drivers now. LCD is working perfect... :-)
20:12:25casainhobertrik: I now know that maybe I can use DMA for sending the data to LCD....
20:12:31linuxstbbluebrother: Someone has implemented this on OSX, so it's not impossible -
20:12:39linuxstbIt just looks a little painful...
20:12:53daokI have build a small utility that create and It works on the computer but once in the RockBox, it's silence even if I have set to read the Voice Talk file in the setting, any one know why?
20:13:12Lloreandaok: What player are you trying to use?
20:13:18linuxstbAnd it looks like it doesn't use the /dev/diskN device, so ipodpatcher will need to map between the two.
20:13:27casainhobertrik: first I want to put audio working, after, I will see what I will do... if we change that LCD, then no need to spend time optimizing that code...
20:13:29daokI am using GigaBeat F20
20:13:31Lloreandaok: We use Speex for the non-Archos players.
20:13:34LloreanNot MP3
20:14:03linuxstbdaok: You need to encode from WAV to ".talk" with tools/rbspeexenc
20:14:09bertrikcasainho, ok, sounds fair
20:14:24daokalright let me search it I'll be back to give you some news
20:15:02casainhojhMikeS: do you think that the code can work without doing that flush?
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20:15:27casainhobertrik: do you think is possible to use DMA for sending data to SPI? did you saw it before?
20:16:52jhMikeScasainho: It can work but if you have a data cache+DMA there's no guarantee the audio transferred will be flawless.
20:19:55bluebrotherthat code looks ugly. Reminds me of w32api somehow *shudder*
20:22:03daokit's working!!!!
20:22:05daokThank you guy!
20:22:57linuxstbbluebrother: Yes, I don't know why Apple needed to reinvent the wheel...
20:25:28casainhojhMikeS: I don't know If I have cache.. is something dependent of MCU??
20:25:36casainhojhMikeS: or ARM core?
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20:26:27linuxstbbluebrother: I forget - do you have a Mac?
20:27:10bluebrotherlinuxstb: no.
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20:28:54bertrikcasainho, caching is a general concept and is probably explained together with the capabilities of your specific processor
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20:30:11casainhobertrik: ah, okok, so I will look at datasheet for it :-) −− but I am almost sure that there is no problem with working on DMA, because I didn't saw any reference to it before. I will continue working now :-) −− thanks :-)
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20:30:55*linuxstb starts a wiki page for all this ipod<->itunes stuff, and considers IpodItunesCommunication - any better ideas?
20:32:10LloreanSounds good enough, at least
20:32:21Horschtiis this for using the itunes library in rockbox? including the artwork database?
20:32:37LloreanHorschti: No.
20:32:53saratogacasainho: all arm9 processors have both an L1 Data and L1 Instruction cache I think
20:33:25saratogathats the main difference between 7 and 9, 7 has just one cache
20:33:52bertrikcasainho, you use the at91sam9260, right? it has 8 kB icache and 8 kB dcache
20:34:08linuxstbHorschti: I guess that's a good point - it's not about the itunesdb, but that name can imply that... Maybe I'll use something like IpodUsbInfo
20:34:25Lloreanlinuxstb: Maybe just IpodXMLInfo ?
20:34:51linuxstbLlorean: It's for more than just that - I want to document exactly what itunes needs from a USB device to think it's an ipod.
20:35:06linuxstb(USB IDs, partition layout, etc)
20:35:20LloreanI don't think "IpodItunesCommunication" really suggests anything about the database anyway.
20:36:37linuxstbLlorean: No, and it will be obvious when the page is read.... So I'll stick with that.
20:36:47Horschtino it doesn't actualy... i was just hoping
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20:37:24*linuxstb wonders who created those wiki pages starting IPod...
20:38:09LloreanProbably someone tried iPod and just capitalized the I when it complained
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20:38:33casainhosaratoga: bertrik : yes, I am using that AT91SAM9260, ARM9. So, I don't know yet how to use that icache and dcache......
20:39:22casainhowhat this function must do? :: pcm_play_dma_get_peak_buffer() ?? −− I don't understand it...
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20:42:26casainhoif someone wants to look at my audio drivers:
20:43:15***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
20:43:51bertrikcasainho, it will work fine for the moment without icache and dcache, just a bit slower. I'm no arm expert though. If I understand correctly, on the sansa clip (which also has an arm9) the icache is normally already enabled but the dcache has to be enabled explicitly
20:44:41bertrikIIRC, the peak buffer is used to determine the peak level for the peak meter, it's not critical for playback I think
20:44:53casainhobertrik: okok, thanks. LAter I will read more about this subject.
20:45:18casainhobertrik: oh, nice :-) Then I will use the empty stub :-)
20:45:37 Quit stripwax ("")
20:45:55casainhoI will test the code on hardware, right now :-)
20:46:26bertrikbut you have to return *something*. I think you can have a look at what it does on other players, for example the ams sansas
20:46:49casainhookok :-)
20:48:53bertrikoh you may be able to get away with it for now by setting *count to 0
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20:52:49casainhowell, I got an hang on undefined vector....
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20:58:41saratogalinuxstb: how hard would it be to get iTunes working correctly with other devices? just change the USB id, generate the XML file, and show a fake parition at the end?
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21:14:17rasherbluebrother: When compiled on amd64
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21:24:25gartrali know it isn't trivial, but im experimenting, and i want to know how to interrupt the power off function called by long press on the power button in a plugin, or is this not possible
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21:28:51saratogagartral: probably not possible
21:33:05gartralhmm, ok, well, for now, i added BUTTON_REL too a few of the commands in solitaire.c. I saw a fix me on a sansa keypad, and wanted to know if it could be reproduced on a sim, if so, i may try a stab at getting it straightened out
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21:36:11casainhodoes anyone imagine why the player hangs here?
21:37:33casainhoI were working on audio drivers, and I thought before that it was hanging because of missing audio drivers, however, even now with drivers it is hanging like that... I would like to know it is hanging on that phase...
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21:44:24*Unhelpful can only imagine that it will be easiest for somebody with the hardware in question to debug the hang
21:45:06LloreanIs there some reason the images go slightly off the left edge of the screen?
21:45:49casainhoLlorean: there is some problem with this LCD drivers... I am not much worried about it right now.
21:46:35linuxstbsaratoga: rasher has already succeeded in getting itunes to sync to his Sansa (with some USB patches by gevaerts)
21:47:06saratogaah ok
21:47:15casainhoUnhelpful: I am doing JTAG debug, it jumps to interrupt handler... but I can't see it running any C code... :-(
21:50:00saratogalinuxstb: is there an FS entry for it?
21:50:48rashersaratoga: there are some patches on gevaerts' web space.. it's not really suitable for FS
21:51:00rashergross hacks
21:51:27saratoganothing wrong with hacks on FS, keeps things in the open where everyone can look at them . . .
21:51:52*gartral is pressed to find a reason people would want itunes as a general music manager...
21:52:16Lloreangartral: They still use the iTunes store. And criticism of it is off-topic in here.
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21:52:49bluebrothercasainho: have you checked the call stack?
21:52:55Lloreanrasher: Really, Flyspray is supposed to be development, so things starting from hacks and iteratively evolving/polishing is kinda the point.
21:53:30casainhobluebrother: call stack? what is that and how can I check it?
21:53:36gevaertsIf the consensus is that we really want to consider including this sort of functionality, it should be on flyspray I think
21:54:30Lloreangevaerts: Well, having it to look at and discuss on flyspray might help us reach a consensus.
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21:56:14casainhobluebrother: It hangs on undefined vector interrupt address :-(
21:58:32gevaertsrasher: can you put the working patch on FS? I'm not sure if you changed things afterwards
21:59:03rasherHang on..
21:59:22rasherAre there different displays in the PP Sansas?
21:59:54rasherI'm sitting here with my father's and my own e200 here, and the colours look different
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22:01:52Lloreanrasher: I know there were two different versions of the e200v1 at least (two different plastic parts of the scrollwheel) I don't know if they had any *actual* differences like that though
22:09:11rasherFS #10023
22:10:03gevaertsnice title :)
22:17:18rasherLlorean: There's no doubt they're different. The colour I use in widecabbie (B58E00) looks sickly on my father's e280, but more warm on mine
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22:18:58saratogarasher: do you have different back light settings in rockbox?
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22:19:11rasherHm, possibly
22:20:46rasherBrightness was different, but it still doesn't make the screens quite similar
22:21:00LloreanDo the e200s have a contrast value?
22:21:20rasherNot that I know of
22:22:54toffe82can we fiound something about the encryption of the firmware of the hdd070 with this
22:23:09saratogayou could try removing the OF bootloader on both to see if its the result of different initialization by different OF versions
22:23:31saratogai suppose we might not init every voltage on the AS chip in rockbox
22:23:43toffe82this is a dll used in the upgrade of the hdd070
22:26:40casainhobluebrother: do you have any idea of what can be causing that problem?
22:33:25rashersaratoga: good idea, no time to check that I'm afraid :\
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22:43:18***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22:43:46logiqi'd like to write a script to import sansa clip's ratings to itunes..
22:43:59krazykitlogiq, how is that related to rockbox?
22:44:11logiqlol, just a sec
22:44:25logiqin this thread people are discussing MTABLE.SYS file
22:44:27logiqin this thread people are discussing the
22:44:50Lloreanlogiq: This is #Rockbox. It's for support questions and development on the topic of Rockbox.
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22:46:15logiqyeah i understand, but i thought maybe you could give me a hand, since i'm talking about a thread on your forums
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22:46:45LloreanThat thread is about porting the Rockbox software to those players.
22:46:48LloreanYour question, isn't.
22:46:50saratogalogiq: try rockbox-community
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22:59:07midgeyinuxstb: you said you had a version of ipodpatcher that could dump the xml info?
22:59:19 Quit arohtar (Client Quit)
22:59:24linuxstbYes, for Linux and (maybe) win32.
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22:59:42linuxstbThe win32 version needs testing...
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23:00:22midgeydo you have binaries or a patch posted anywhere?
23:01:44linuxstbI have a patch and a win32 binary -"> and
23:02:12linuxstbTo run it, do "ipodpatcher −−list" - that will dump the xml (it's not finished yet...)
23:02:47rasherThe bit about the ipod serial number seems interesting also, assuming that's what the USB iSerial is set to
23:02:52rasherOn, sorry
23:03:06midgeyI dumped the 4G xml by hand, but I'd like to check it
23:03:52*amiconn wonders whether the G1/G2 also provide that XML
23:04:04rasherI've added a 3g-nano dump to that page
23:04:29linuxstbamiconn: According to the IPL wiki, no. But it would hurt to test.
23:05:20*linuxstb remembers there's no USB...
23:05:25amiconnDoes sending raw scsi commands via firewire work?
23:05:46linuxstbI expect so. You can use "sg_inq" in Linux.
23:05:58amiconnI *think* that firewire also uses the scsi protocol like usb msc
23:06:10 Quit einhirn (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:06:13amiconnNo firewire controller in my linux box...
23:06:49bluebrotherfirewire uses SPB-2 which is basically SCSI
23:08:42bluebrotherit's SBP-2 actually. Linux kernel module description says "SCSI over IEEE1394"
23:12:35midgeythrough my vmware install of windows, ipodpatcher gets a 0 byte XML
23:12:51linuxstbmidgey: Does it give any errors?
23:13:35midgeythe xml should start at page 0xc0 but it's much shorter than the 5th gen xml
23:14:18linuxstbI've tested it on my Photo and a 5g, and the high-level logic seems fine. It's just the actual SCSI inquiry which is OS specific.
23:14:56midgeyif i get around to it, i'll try it on native winxp
23:15:25linuxstbBut the rest of ipodpatcher works OK in vmware?
23:16:12midgeyit was able to scan my 4g successfully
23:18:32 Quit casainho ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.7/2009030422]")
23:19:58rasherThe xml in FS #10023 might be a bit stupid. I think it denies AAC support
23:20:44linuxstbI guess storing/generating the xml is going to be the hard part - i.e. how to do it with miminal ram usage...
23:21:06LloreanWe could just save it in an external file.
23:21:09LloreanLoad it when disk mode starts.
23:21:24rasherLlorean: that just means ram usage
23:21:43Lloreanrasher: For what?
23:21:48rasherFor the entire file
23:22:11LloreanCan't we use the audio buffer during USB mode?
23:22:18gevaertsIt's doable, with a bit of manual memory allocation
23:22:19midgeyonly load it on those two scsi commands
23:22:19gevaertsLlorean: we do
23:22:33rashermidgey: we can't touch the disk when in msc mode
23:22:43linuxstbStoring on disk seems messy - and makes it harder to manipulate...
23:22:44midgeybah, forgot
23:23:12rasherlinuxstb: I imagine it'd be ideal for initial experimentaiton
23:23:18linuxstbe.g. it needs to include the ipod's serial number
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23:23:56rasherlinuxstb: not really.
23:23:59linuxstbHmm, it's going to need us to know what each OF version says...
23:24:03rasherlinuxstb: It's just set to XXXXXXXXXX in the patch
23:24:34linuxstbrasher: That may confuse itunes though - e.g. syncing with two different serial numbers, or DRM things.
23:25:03midgeygevaerts: same error, iPod detected, but cannot be identified
23:25:06*linuxstb is starting to think this might be more trouble than its worth...
23:25:10midgeyi can try in windows real quick
23:25:49rasherI guess that's open for experimentation. iTunes doesn't care for one-ipod-use it seems -
23:25:51LloreanDoes iTunes need the whole XML
23:25:59LloreanOr can we just send it small parts of it that we care about?
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23:27:13rasherLlorean: we don't know
23:28:19midgeygevaerts: good news
23:28:30midgeyseems to work fine on vista with itunes 8
23:28:57midgeyipod is detected as a mini, itunes tells me a software update is available
23:29:03midgeydatabase can be read
23:29:17gevaertsso it's only OS X?
23:29:22midgeyseems so
23:29:30midgeymayeb osx doesn't use scsi?
23:29:44gevaertsit does. MSC *is* scsi
23:29:59midgeysorry, i meant those specific queries
23:30:22rashermidgey: you can check logf
23:30:47rasherIt should be enabled and logging something like cmdblck[2] = c0
23:30:53gevaertsI'm pretty sure it does. It may rely on more specific things though, like caching mode pages and things like that
23:30:55rasherWhen c0 is requested
23:31:06*midgey will have to learn
23:32:51 Join keby [0] (
23:34:51rashermidgey: after a fresh boot, plug in usb, unplug. Then go to the debug menu and do logfdump. The logf contents are now in /.rockbox/logf.txt
23:39:05 Quit ender` (" Be nice to the USA, or they'll bring you democracy.")
23:41:29soapLlorean: rasher gevaerts, IMHO If Rockbox USB is going to be in official releases for iPods either Rockbox duplication of the iTunes communication OR a very explicit section in the manual is needed. I think it is quite a lot to ask of new users otherwise.
23:42:35 Quit bmbl ("Woah!")
23:42:45soapThe difference between Rockbox booting into Apple's Emergency Disk mode and Rockbox switching to Rockbox's Extreme Disk mode is subtle enough for the casual user that the "breaking" of iTunes compatibility should be addressed, again IMHO.
23:43:16Lloreansoap: It's a lot to ask them to say "Rockbox is a replacement firmware, and your iPod will not work like an iPod while running it (both in terms of the options it will offer you on the player, and the ways in which it may communicate with software on the computer)"?
23:43:31rashersoap: I think a manual section would be fine and reasonable.
23:43:42gevaertsI'm opposed to committing this itunes code now. It's not going to be tested enough in one week, even if we get it ready and fully working this weekend
23:43:46LloreanI don't think we need to go into any explicit details beyond simply saying "Rockbox is different, and will work different" in a clear enough way in the introduction.
23:44:14gevaertsThe release notes should have a paragraph explaining the implications of the change I think
23:44:16rashergevaerts: Very much agreed.
23:44:35 Quit linuxstb (Remote closed the connection)
23:45:37gevaertsI'm actually still not convinced that we should release with the rockbox USB stack. saratoga's (and other people's) issues are pretty serious IMHO
23:46:46soapLlorean: My argument rests solely on the fact that this is _new_ behavior by Rockbox - the breaking of iTunes recognition.
23:47:11soapSomeone comming from 3.1 to 3.2 would not expect existing functionality to break.
23:47:16 Join linuxstb [0] (
23:47:45LloreanThe only functionality that's broken is "automatic rebooting into the OF"
23:48:03soapYou are describing the cause - the effect is what end-users see.
23:48:09LloreanTransfers in the OF are still fine, so we probably need a disclaimer in red somewhere saying "To use your iPods with iTunes it will now be necessary to manually boot the original firmware"
23:48:19linuxstbgevaerts: I think I agree - there seem to be enough people having problems with USB to prevent its release.
23:49:35gevaertsI have the impression that it's fine on ipods, but then the ipod reboot is fast enough that people don't even know we reboot
23:50:05 Quit petur (Remote closed the connection)
23:50:27linuxstbBut then we have the itunes issue - users are bound to ask why itunes doesn't work with their ipods after installing Rockbox...
23:50:34saratogagevaerts: did you see my note about your patch on the tracker?
23:51:25gevaertssaratoga: yes. I think it's good to know, and it may provide clues but I don't think a disconnect every 5GB is good enough
23:52:20saratogahow many people have problems with it?
23:53:11*bluebrother wonders if those targetid numbers are still needed in rbutil
23:54:12linuxstbSo does anyone think USB should be enabled for the release?
23:54:37 Join parafin [0] (
23:54:58soapIs there a solid breakdown of where it fails? Are the failures tied to target, PC OS, use of hub/etc, etc?
23:55:27saratogasoap: mine is definately related to my PC, as it happens in windows and linux on the same machine, but on no others
23:55:34gevaertssaratoga: at least two have reported it (you and Martyn). FS #10011 seems to point to MartinR also having problems.
23:56:18gevaertsAlso, I could reproduce this a few days ago until I reformatted the sansa. I still don't understand that
23:58:28gevaertsMy vote would be to disable USB again on the 3.2 branch
23:58:59linuxstbMy feeling is the same - now we have regular releases, we should be aiming for a high standard.

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