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#rockbox log for 2009-03-17

00:03:41 Quit domonoky (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
00:06:43 Quit bluebrother ("leaving")
00:09:09 Quit Lss (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
00:10:04EvanCarrollWell, i'll be talking to the right guy at sansa when I call tomorrow
00:10:52 Quit jordoex (Connection timed out)
00:11:56EvanCarrollI also worked with domonoky to get a list of technical questions
00:11:56saratogaif you mean to ask them about rockbox, theres basically zero chance they'll help you
00:11:59 Join bazz [0] (i=[PUShrbX@r12.Millennium.Berkeley.EDU)
00:12:31EvanCarrollsaratoga−− # Wow, negativity...
00:13:05LloreanEvanCarroll: Are you prepared in case he asks you questions about Rockbox?
00:13:06bazzis there a way to lock a player with rockbox? that is, player is on and playing but you need to enter some sort of password to unlock and be able to change anything
00:13:25LloreanEvanCarroll: If you get things wrong, it's quite possible you could do more harm than good.
00:13:33JdGordon|wbazz: no
00:13:37saratogaEvanCarroll: I don't think i'm being negative
00:13:41EvanCarrolldomonsky's personal email if interested, I just want to start the dialog
00:13:45gevaertsbazz: no. That's not possible on most players anyway, as they have a hardware reset feature
00:13:47EvanCarrollOr, try to.
00:13:57JdGordon|wbazz: you can put it into a semi-locked state though where you cant change the playing track or stop it though
00:14:26bazzJdGordon|w: ohh, how do you do that?
00:14:40JdGordon|wturn on party mode in the settings somewhere
00:14:59LloreanEvanCarroll: You're going to need to be able to at least tell him what Rockbox is, and probably describe some reasons why they should help beyond "I think, without any hard numbers, that it'll increase sales more than it'll increase costs"
00:15:52bazzJdGordon|w: ohh cool, that's pretty much exactly my use case :) thanks
00:17:16 Join jhMikeS [0] (
00:18:25LloreanEvanCarroll: Those questions don't really tell me what you're going to say. They just tell me what you'll ask *after* he agrees to pass some questions on for you.
00:20:05EvanCarrollI'm not even coming close to proclaiming i'm the most qualified person to start a conversation with Sansa, but I seem to be the person most willing to try.
00:20:44saratogaSandisk seems willing to tolerate us right now, I don't see much sense in poking the bear here
00:21:06saratogareminding them that we hack their players seems like a great way to get them to add encryption, like almost everyone else has
00:21:10LloreanEvanCarroll: You assume we haven't tried before?
00:21:24 Part bazz ("Leaving")
00:22:39EvanCarrollsaratoga: other than the companies with vested interests in online sales, how many players have encryption? Just the zune and ipod right?
00:23:10BagderEvanCarroll: most of them have various levels of "encryption" or at least scramblings
00:23:40saratogaSandisk is fairly special in that they don't seem interested in protecting their players
00:23:44LloreanEvanCarroll: I would just like to know how you intend to present "what Rockbox is" and "why you might be interested"
00:23:49 Quit Xerion (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
00:24:03saratogaI think you should consider what is the best case here, they give you a parts list and a pin out? verses the worst case where they decide to finally get rid of people hacking their devices
00:24:06Bagdersaratoga: the sansa v1s have pretty fancy encryption/signatures
00:24:19 Join Xerion [0] (
00:24:37saratogayeah but not the V2s, and Sandisk was nice enough to not bother fixing their broken encryption before dropping it entirely on all their new devices
00:24:43Lloreansaratoga: I don't see any harm in calling attention to us, really.
00:24:47LloreanYes, that's the worst case.
00:24:52Bagdersaratoga: true
00:24:53LloreanBut I doubt sandisk has "forgotten" we exist.
00:26:33LloreanEvanCarroll: Do you intend to present yourself as representing the project, or as being an interested fan?
00:26:45EvanCarrollinterested fan
00:27:15LloreanWould you mind answering some of my other questions, then?
00:27:35saratogamaybe this should go in community?
00:27:55Unhelpfulamiconn: you can save a (presumably 1-cycle) instruction by making PFREAL_SHIFT something friendlier to SH-1, and there's a right shift by PFREAL_SHIFT per pixel rendered. i'm not sure what else you want to asm in the inner loop. you might also consider an asm fmul or fdiv, you could probably even get away with inlining it and still fit it in the plugin buffer, and if not, one or two other things can get shoved to the audio buffer
00:27:56Lloreansaratoga: It's still Rockbox project stuff.
00:28:14Lloreansaratoga: Community is for things that very much *aren't* Rockbox. Attempting relations with commercial manufacturers is still relevant to the project.
00:28:31saratogaah ok, was thinking this channel was more development and support
00:28:41 Join amiconn_ [50] (n=jens@rockbox/developer/amiconn)
00:28:41 Quit amiconn (Nick collision from services.)
00:28:44 Join pixelma_ [50] (n=pixelma@rockbox/staff/pixelma)
00:28:44 Quit pixelma (Nick collision from services.)
00:28:56 Nick pixelma_ is now known as pixelma (n=pixelma@rockbox/staff/pixelma)
00:28:59 Nick amiconn_ is now known as amiconn (n=jens@rockbox/developer/amiconn)
00:29:55Lloreansaratoga: No, it's really just "rockbox" and "not rockbox" to keep it clearer and easier.
00:30:06EvanCarrollI'm simply going to represent myself as a fan who previously owned an e260v1, and also IT professional (but one without any experience in embedded design) that is interested in obtaining a player, preferably by Sansa, that supports Rockbox.
00:30:35pixelmais it possible to "svn up" from the old release branch to 3.2, or should I just check out new?
00:30:53Lloreanpixelma: I think you have to check out since it's another folder, but I'm not sure.
00:31:09pixelmawould have been my guess too
00:31:13Bagderpixelma: I think it is possible to switch to the new one, but I'm not sure how
00:31:29Bagderusing "svn switch"
00:31:50pixelmaI'll try to look it up thanks
00:32:01 Part toffe82_
00:32:17 Join itcheg [0] (i=62db4767@gateway/web/ajax/
00:32:21EvanCarrollthe feature I'm most missing is folder-browsing, that is a must have for me, but I also think the rockbox UI is worlds ahead of the OF, even though it is lacking some of the graphics.
00:32:36 Quit itcheg (Client Quit)
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00:33:00LloreanEvanCarroll: Just saying "It's better" or "it has this feature I need" is probably not going to convince them it could offer a very significant audience increase.
00:33:02ChexEvanCarroll: I agree. I just purcahsed a e280v1, and its amazing (my 1st time using rockbox)
00:33:44LloreanEvanCarroll: I'd imagine your best best is to be able to describe, well, most or all of the added featureset of Rockbox (or at least the majority of important ones) that Sandisk doesn't or won't offer, and why there's a community that will be completely unwilling to buy their players without those features (and why it would be reasonable to expect this community is large)
00:34:08EvanCarrollLlorean: if the conversation permits, I agree.
00:34:22EvanCarrollBut I'm not sure it will, so the merits of flac and ogg are probably too nitty-gritty.
00:34:24LloreanAnd then of course, follow up with how little you actually are asking for from Sandisk (no support, no specific docs, just the occasional question passed on to their techs who may hopefully choose to answer it)
00:34:35LloreanEvanCarroll: What, exactly, are you expecting then?
00:34:45LloreanYou're going to have to convince them. That means, in part, that you're going to have to lead the conversation. Not him.
00:35:08LloreanHe doesn't want to help you, and has said so, meaning he's likely to ask a few simple questions (if any) then dismiss you politely.
00:35:12EvanCarrollI'm not expecting him to have a 30minute debate about rockbox's feature set.
00:35:46krazykitEvanCarroll, they seem to know about flac and ogg, considering the OF in their newer players support them.
00:35:46 Quit Xerion (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
00:35:58LloreanEvanCarroll: I asked what you ARE expecting, not what you're not expecting.
00:36:15 Join Xerion [0] (
00:36:18EvanCarrollI just want him to know I bought a e260 before, and was very happy. now i have a v2, and I'm not happy, and I'm a fan of Rockbox −− which makes me happy, and in communication with the community which has requested some assistance with 3 technical issues.
00:36:25LloreanYou can't just call and hope he'll "buy" Rockbox. You need to create the opportunity to "sell" it to him. That more or less means going in with a "pitch" in mind.
00:36:56LloreanEvanCarroll: So you're basically calling one of their significant technical staff to say "I, a single person, am less likely to buy from you again now"?
00:37:08EvanCarrollLlorean: You're the worst troll ever.
00:37:42 Quit Xerion (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
00:37:58LloreanEvanCarroll: I'm asking serious questions here. I'm not trying to troll, I'm trying to vastly help improve your chances of actually accomplishing something.
00:38:12 Join Xerion [0] (
00:38:42pixelmaah good, "svn switch svn://" from my old release branch source tree seems to work :) - for further reference
00:38:52LloreanEvanCarroll: I've talked with RealMedia and discussed Rockbox on a significantly listened Open Source podcast. I do have some experience in this specific area (talking up Rockbox with real human beings, out loud)
00:38:59EvanCarrollok, well... then stop discouraging me, and if you care, give me your phone number and I'll do my best to conference call you in.
00:39:19saratogai think discouraging you is a pretty good option since your plan seems completely stupid
00:39:20LloreanIf asking you "what is your plan" is discouraging, maybe you should come up with a plan...
00:39:24EvanCarrollif the conversation permits some higher level technical questioning
00:39:36saratoga"hmm i'll call up this guy who doesn't want to talk to me and say nothing he cares about"
00:39:51 Quit Xerion (Client Quit)
00:39:51LloreanYou don't need technical questioning to sell it. What you need is "What will Sandisk gain, and why will it be worth the cost."
00:39:56saratoga"perhaps in wasting his time I will accomplish goals I haven't set out for myself"
00:40:04LloreanThat includes explaining what Rockbox does, in a succinct but accurate manner.
00:41:41LloreanEvanCarroll: Remember, if he walks away from you feeling like you've wasted his time, he's much less likely to give anyone else his time to try again in the future. Whether you're presenting yourself as a fan or not, you need to be as good a salesman as possible.
00:42:15 Quit sarixe (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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00:44:25***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:45:54*Llorean sends a fresh email to to ask if my other email was even received.
00:47:10 Quit sarixe (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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00:49:38 Part avis
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01:00:52*Llorean gets a response from
01:01:10 Quit n1s ("Lämnar")
01:02:00LloreanI'm not sure if my first email got through, but I've been told it's being passed up to (whoever received the email)'s director and we should have a response in the next day or so (and to feel free to contact them if we don't)
01:02:20Llorean"it" in "it's being.." being the text of it I attached to my inquiry as to whether the first on was received.
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01:06:12 Quit tvelocity (Remote closed the connection)
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01:10:03 Quit ender` (" I went to a restaurant that serves "breakfast at any time." So I ordered French Toast during the Renaissance.")
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01:11:03 Quit Conic ()
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01:18:24JdGordonLlorean: what was the email about?
01:18:53LloreanJdGordon: To summarize - "Do we need a VID, and if we do, is it possible for us to get one since we aren't a legal entity?"
01:19:21 Join stripwax [0] (
01:19:32LloreanFill in to a greater length by discussing what Rockbox is, how we run on hardware that is unmodified physically, currently use the original VID/PID for such hardware, etc.
01:19:48JdGordonthat last bit is probably illegal?
01:20:11LloreanNot illegal.
01:20:20Lloreanif we _had_ a USB license, we *might* be violating it.
01:21:17LloreanSince we don't, all we're really doing is being impolite (like spoofing a user agent string in a browser). But we would like to know what we're "supposed" to do so we can discuss if we can do it.
01:22:30LloreanThe idea is that we might want to consider purchasing our own VID, and what came from that was "we should really find out if we should to conform properly, or if it's something entirely optional in our situation"
01:23:05*PSPdemon scrolls up to see what he missed
01:23:23LloreanPSPdemon: You really don't need to let us know about stuff like that.
01:24:52LloreanJdGordon: VIDs are (if we read correctly) a $2000 one-time fee if we don't care about licensing to use the USB logo as well.
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01:54:09stripwaxLooks like putting libtremor pcm buffer (the _ogg_calloc stuff in block.c) into IBSS_ATTR gives a juicy speedup on ipod 5g- from 45Mhz (35% boost) according to buffering thread info 'before' to 30Mhz (11% boost) [I'm using 24Mhz default clock]
01:54:57stripwaxChanging vect_copy to just use memcpy instead seems to give about another 0.5MHz improvement
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02:08:00 Join saratoga_home [0] (n=41becb3b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
02:08:12saratoga_homestripewax: what file are you testing with?
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02:10:39saratoga_homegevaerts: I've copied 30GB and counting using Toni's patch without a usb disconnect
02:10:51saratoga_homeI just tried stock SVN and it died after 1 GB
02:11:41 Quit JdGordon (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
02:12:17stripwaxsaratoga - some random q5 vorbis file I had. Let me just try a more scientific test with test_codec ..
02:12:21saratoga_homestripwax: you too
02:12:40saratoga_homestripwax: those numbers seem off
02:12:57stripwaxin what way?
02:13:14saratoga_homethey're much worse then what codecperformancecomparison gives
02:14:00stripwaxright, test_codec shows lower average clock and lower boost ratio than the buffering thread debug shows
02:14:10saratoga_homeoh you're using the buffering screen
02:14:11stripwaxabove is from the debug screen not the test_codec
02:14:15saratoga_homeyeah that makes sense
02:14:21saratoga_homeit adds 10-15MHz
02:14:28stripwaxyep, about that
02:14:37 Join JdGordon [0] (n=jonno@rockbox/developer/JdGordon)
02:14:41saratoga_homeyou need to reduce the update rate to benchmark with it
02:15:03saratoga_homei recommend once every 10 seconds or fewer
02:15:43stripwaxReduce the update rate in test_codec? (or on debug buffering screen?). I'm running test_codec as I type..
02:16:19saratoga_homethe debug screen, but only if you want to benchmark with it
02:16:34saratoga_homeyou also need to disable screen turn off so that backlight fading doesn't impact it
02:17:06 Quit MethoS- (Remote closed the connection)
02:17:09Unhelpfulpixelma: when you get a chance, here's the "select buttons everywhere" version for ondio. short press on up, menu, or right is select, with the last one masked in the album view, of course. short press on power for menu, long press for quit
02:19:19Unhelpfulsince you also wanted to try putting the app menu on menu-button-long-press, you can do that just by removing the mappings that use BUTTON_MENU for ondio in pf_context_buttons
02:24:39stripwaxArgh, I'm an idiot. test_codec never lies, the decode speed isn't changed by much it seems, will upload results anyway
02:25:29saratoga_hometheres lots of speed up still possible in tremor for what its worth
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02:28:32saratoga_homegevaerts: all together thats 35GB or almost 2 hours of straight USB transfering without a reset, we should probably think about commiting Toni's patch, at least for Sansas
02:29:31stripwaxsaratoga - sure, thought I'd try something 'easy' (compared to pipelining onto cop say)
02:30:15saratoga_homestripwax: is ASM easy enough? the imdctlib could use some
02:30:41saratoga_homeor you could look at the bitstream reader stuff, apparently the tremorlo version puts a lot of effort into rewriting that, and its quite fast
02:30:45Lloreansaratoga_home: So now we're just down to "charging" and "iTunes is broken" as potential roadblocks for it in 3.3
02:31:04saratoga_homeLlorean: well for me and Toni at least
02:31:12saratoga_homesince it seems to resolve our problems
02:31:33saratoga_homethough maybe more testing is needed to be sure
02:31:58LloreanWell, we have 3 more months now
02:33:07stripwaxsaratoga - imdctlib has loads of asm already; thought that was pretty good now? But didn't know tremolo had bitstream modifications; I have a local build of that somewhere (but it's a branch off a fork off an old version iirc, so probably a pain to integrate)
02:33:32saratoga_homestripwax: you seen FS #9882 - Speed-up mod for large block (Vorbis) ?
02:34:16saratoga_homestripewax: yes its non-trivial to integrate, but the underlying idea is probably worthwhile
02:35:23stripwaxsaratoga - I did see that patch, but not the recent versions (I don't use q1 personally but see it's been updated somewhat). Thanks, will check it out
02:35:40saratoga_homeit touches some of the same code right?
02:37:01stripwaxsure looks like it - right, kill my patch and I'll look here instead :)
02:37:36saratoga_homewell if you're familar with that part of vorbis, feel free to review and commit :)
02:37:53 Quit midijunkie ("?(???~•~)?")
02:38:12saratoga_homeit seems both patches are probably worth having
02:38:35saratoga_homealso if you have any input about mallocing in IRAM, let me know
02:41:00saratoga_homei think we could probably shave another 4-5 MHz off Tremor's runtime on ARM7/9, even without COP
02:42:20 Join kugel [0] (n=kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel)
02:42:54stripwaxIndeed: it looks like the patch doesn't use any of the new iram buffer in block.c itself (just allocates it and adds it to the dsp state!). only pcm buffer in iram seems to be the one in synthesis.c - so agree, both patches probably worth having. I'll take a look at combining
02:43:32saratoga_homestripwax: do you have some idea when these different buffers are used?
02:44:00*kugel is curious about the binsize delta of his last commit
02:44:15saratoga_homewe save some IRAM with the malloc patch in the high bitrate case, but without saving some IRAM in the low bitrate case its all rather pointless
02:44:30***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
02:45:20stripwaxThe buffers in synthesis.c contain the output of the inverse mdct and the buffers in block.c contain the previous output from the previous block so we can overlap/add (and then the synthesis.c buffers get memcpy'd over and pointers flipped.. I think..)
02:46:30stripwaxactually, presumably the memcpy is instead of flipping pointers..
02:48:09saratoga_homeok so thats obviously not going to be bitrate dependent
02:49:31stripwaxRight - and the logic looks like it's mostly there for it to work without having to do a memcpy, but then we go and do a memcpy anyway. I think we could just swap..
02:51:40stripwaxUnfortunately, now is not the time to try that - it'll have to wait unfortunately. Goodnight..
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02:56:42kugel:? I mean
02:57:07kugelamiconn: ping
02:58:01kugelI'm not surprised about the general decrease, but about the increase for player and ondios :S
02:58:17 Join itcheg [0] (i=62db4767@gateway/web/ajax/
02:59:09PSPdemonis there a way to turn the e200 simulator 90 degrees?
02:59:45kugelPSPdemon: rotate your pc monitor
03:00:03 Join JdGordon_ [0] (
03:01:50PSPdemonkugel, lol.... how about a more reasonable way?
03:02:05LloreanEdit the source code.
03:02:18kugelit's reasonable. it's perfectly reversible too :)
03:02:57 Quit Llorean (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
03:03:02*kugel wouldn't care to code just for playing doom/watching a video with mpegplayer with rotated screen just once
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03:10:13saratogai think overlap/add windowing should probably be added to the codec lib
03:10:23saratogajust write one fast version and use it on all the transform codecs
03:10:35saratogathen move the whole imdct/windowing stage to COP
03:10:43saratogain one fast swoop
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03:13:00 Join Jats [0] (
03:13:35saratogaalso if someone who is familiar with pcm playback on PP wants to make pcmbuf_insert callable from the COP I have all sorts of ideas
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03:33:28***Alert Mode level 1
03:33:28DBUGEnqueued KICK JdGordon__
03:33:28DBUGEnqueued KICK JdGordon|zzz
03:33:28***Alert Mode level 2
03:33:28DBUGEnqueued KICK JdGordon|afk
03:33:28DBUGEnqueued KICK JdGordon
03:33:28***Alert Mode level 3
03:33:35Unhelpfulkugel: objdiff on ondio sp shows new symbols gwps_fix_statusbars, gwps_leave_wps, and wpsbars in r20329 take 44, 28, and 4 bytes respectively, and viewportmanager_draw_statusbars grows by 12B. this is offset by a 52B savings in gui_wps_show.
03:34:31kugelUnhelpful: there's a good deal of removed duplicated code in gui_wps_show though
03:35:51kugelwhy is the saving so low compared to arm/cf? and why does it still yield a effective saving on other sh targets? that's weird
03:36:42kugelwell, those mono displays doesn't have backdrops, which explains the lower saving
03:38:20Unhelpfulfix_wps_bars appears to be the culprit, it appears in r20327 on recorderv2, costing 48B, and is removed with your commit, but doesn't appear at all on ondio sp... is it not part of the build on that target, or does some weird target detail get it inlined?
03:39:27kugelfix_wps_bars == gwps_fix_statsbars (basically, just the parameter is removed)
03:40:19Unhelpfulwell, actually, if it's in both builds, and the same size, objdiff won't report a symbol
03:40:39kugeland it has no return value anymore (since I made wpsbars global in the file)
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03:41:23kugelit's not exactly the same, but 4byte difference sounds reasonable
03:42:31Unhelpfulnm shows it's not in the r20327 rockbox.elf on ondio sp
03:42:59 Quit JdGordon|zzz (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
03:43:29***Alert Mode OFF
03:44:35kugelUnhelpful: you mean fix_statusbars is in neither revision for the ondio?
03:44:48kugelthat's sounds like a bug to me, actually
03:44:52Unhelpfulfix_wps_bars is in neither revision for the ondio
03:45:50kugelit can't be inlined I think. It's called from viewport.c too
03:45:55Unhelpfulgwps_fix_statusbars is in r20329 for sp
03:46:30kugelhm, maybe it was inlined before my commit?
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03:48:07Unhelpfulpossibly, and if it was specialized substantially while inlining it, it might have been smaller inlined...
03:50:55kugelUnhelpful: ok, that definitely explains the red delta on the player (it was a one liner returning a constant before), but not really for the ondio
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03:51:49Unhelpful...i didn't look at player! ;)
03:52:36kugelyea, I know, it puzzles me
03:52:58kugelI'm not sure why it was (apparently) inlined on the ondio before, but not on the recorder
03:54:50kugelhm, ok, I guess why it's a red delta on the ondio. but why isn't it for the other mono (and/or sh) targets!?
03:55:27Unhelpfuli'll pastebin the objdiff reports for you :)
03:57:49Unhelpfulondio: recorder v2:
03:58:27kugelUnhelpful: will look soon, I'm busy with fixing reds now :S
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04:40:17kugelUnhelpful: weird, it seems fix_wps_bars was inlined on the ondio, but not recorder.
04:42:01PSPdemonquick question....
04:42:03PSPdemonAdd MD5 checksum for v1.01.22 of the Fuze original firmware.
04:42:14PSPdemonis that for v.1.01.22a as well?
04:42:45kugelsure, it's the same file
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04:43:35kugelPSPdemon: there's no regional differences in the firmware files. Solely the filename (the suffix specifically) makes up the different feature set
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04:50:31JdGordonkugel: ondio only has one display, recorder has 2... so it makes sense
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04:51:09kugelrecorder has 2? oh
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04:52:09kugelthe c200 yellow is plainly stupid
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04:53:45CtcpIgnored 4 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood
04:53:45*JdGordon always likes it when large patches stay in sync after weeks of not being touched
04:55:19*kugel always dislikes when big patches cause big trouble on the build table
04:55:24kugelbut it needs to be done
04:55:59JdGordonhaha wow... lots of red :D
04:56:07JdGordonthats why you build locally first
04:56:16JdGordonbtw.... hello pot :D
04:57:46kugelJdGordon: Why do we have a build table if I'm supposed to build everything locally first?
04:58:33JdGordonI know.. i was joking...
04:59:32kugelok :)
05:00:22JdGordonkugel: im not sure i agree with;r2=20329;pathrev=20329
05:00:29JdGordonwas it actually needed?
05:02:44kugelJdGordon: the event knows best when to "re-fix" the statusbars, not the wps
05:03:24kugelit saves a call too. Only in the event handle, and once at entering the wps is needed
05:03:54JdGordonhmm... ok, i guess its fine.. I just checked, for some reason i thought that wps call would redraw the bar
05:04:05JdGordonwtf is up with settings_list.c?
05:04:35kugelin your local repo?
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05:04:52JdGordonyeah, unrelated patch is causing it to not compile
05:05:00kugelI get that problem too often, there's a dependency problem anywhere.
05:05:09JdGordonLANG_SORT_INTERPRET_NUMBERS undeclared!
05:05:49kugelfor now, just rm -fr * helps
05:06:48kugelI think those auto-generated lang.* files aren't handled properly.
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05:07:13JdGordonbah yeah, looks like thats the problem
05:07:21JdGordonwierd, make veryclean didnt fix it...
05:07:26 Quit edrews (Client Quit)
05:07:28JdGordoncan you buzz Zagor about it?
05:07:36kugelOr you? ;)
05:07:38*JdGordon has fallen out of timezone alignment :(
05:07:51kugelwell, it's not worse than before
05:07:59kugelwith your timezone I mean
05:08:14*JdGordon moves to other chan
05:12:59PSPdemonif i may ask how much ram does the E200's have?
05:13:13PSPdemonthanks JdGordon
05:17:55JdGordonanyone wanna guess where/how the runtime data magic happens?
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05:22:47kugelJdGordon: the recently added thing is done by comparing the commit id
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05:23:14kugelrating is done through tags, I guess. And playcount is a separate field in the db files IIRC
05:23:27JdGordoni meant the gather runtime data.. playcount.... i found it
05:23:38JdGordon... in tagtree.c not tagcahce.c where i was looking
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05:24:12kugelruntime data also includes rating and recently added
05:25:35JdGordon"Too many dirs open" :<
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05:26:52JdGordondo you have to load a track in the database tree for it to be picked up by the db?
05:27:34kugelI think so, yes.
05:28:32JdGordonim not so sure.... oh well... run from the db just in case
05:29:22*JdGordon wonders (rather pointlessly) if we should have a single cache of the last X previously played tracks and have scrobbler/db/etc talk to that instead of duplicating logic...
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07:29:31Bagder66139 is very fine points ;-)
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07:39:30pixelmaJdGordon: re. your compiling problem - you probably suffer the same as pondlife yesterday (around 13:00 in yesterday's log)
07:40:46*JdGordon has a look
07:41:31JdGordonno, i tinhk its a different problem
07:41:54pixelmathe Ondios' statusbar is different to the Recorders' in that it doesn't show the clock (and some charger status?) and has a different symbold for disk activity. The Player's status "bar" is a different beast...
07:42:31JdGordonpixelma: i doubt anything has changed, but could you give 9795 a try on hwcodec again please?
07:42:31pixelmasymbol too
07:42:40JdGordonjust incase it magically started working
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07:43:30pixelmaprobably not until the evening
07:44:35JdGordonthats fine, im heading to bed soon anyway
07:49:31amiconnJdGordon: Ehum, the recorders never had two displays!?
07:50:48JdGordondoesnt the rec have a remote lcd?
07:51:18amiconnIt has a remote, but without lcd
07:51:32JdGordonah, doh, ok
07:51:52amiconnSo far only the irivers and iaudios have lcd remotes (hmm, and the mr500)
07:52:17amiconnAll other targets with remotes have button-only remotes
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07:52:19JdGordonthe mr100 uses the same remote i tihnk
07:52:54amiconnHmm, if it does, rockbox doesn't support it, at least not the lcd
07:53:35JdGordoni dont think we can draw on the remote from the mr500 either yet
07:53:54amiconnIirc supporting that lcd remote shouldn't be too difficult. Same pixel format as all other mono LCDs
07:53:55*JdGordon wouldnt trust his memory atm though so...
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07:54:20amiconnJust really small, and very slow to update
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07:54:48pixelmadidn't it have some special symbols (as the Player)?
07:55:19amiconnYes it does, but we don't need to support everything at once
07:57:36amiconnThat's one more thing for my generic notification framework idea
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13:01:06midijunkier20338 doenst boot on my fuze 8gb v1
13:01:21midijunkieblack screen after rbx logo
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13:15:56linuxstbWhat was the last revision that worked?
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13:21:27midijunkiesorry, dont know, last time I updated it was a few days ago
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13:41:16Unhelpfulamiconn: the inner loop only has multiplies when an alpha value is passed, or while rendering the reflection. for the alpha value case, it might also be worth calculating a pre-scaled reflection table, which would save one multiply per pixel in the reflection, at a cost of REFLECT_HEIGHT multiplies at the start of the function
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14:07:58croutonkid94Does anyone here know about recording on the iPod Nano?
14:09:19GodEater_what do you want to know about it ?
14:09:34croutonkid94I can't record using any input
14:09:56scorcheand how have you tried?...specifically...
14:10:06croutonkid94I have a docking station, too, and line-in doesn't record
14:10:40croutonkid94I plug a microphone into the headphones, or line in, and go to Recording, then press-and-hold the play button
14:11:15scorcheare you sure it is a line-in and not a line-out on your docking station?
14:11:39GodEater_the headphones definitely won't work as an input on the Nano.
14:11:45croutonkid94yes... it says "aux in"
14:12:21croutonkid94I have been trying to record myself playing songs on the piano, but it just gives me an empty file.
14:12:47GodEater_doesn't the recording screen have peakmeters on it ?
14:12:53GodEater_or is that only with the REP ?
14:13:07scorcheit does
14:13:13*GodEater_ summons petur : beer
14:13:44GodEater_so do the peakmeters show you any activity whilst trying to use the line in on the dock croutonkid94 ?
14:13:50*petur gets pinged twice
14:14:01*croutonkid94 is sorry... checking
14:14:03GodEater_petur: that was the idea ;)
14:14:22croutonkid94It shows peakmeters, but nothing happens
14:14:32scorcheare the peakmeters moving?
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14:14:58peturcroutonkid94: how is the recording source set?
14:15:00gevaertscroutonkid94: are you sure that microphone can be used on a line-in?
14:15:06scorcheis you input source set as...too late =/
14:15:23croutonkid94petur: wait... when I plug it into the dock, they spike, but nothing records.
14:16:05croutonkid94gevaerts: Input source set as microphone, shoult I change it?
14:16:09peturmicrophone or live signal
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14:16:32croutonkid94petur: it says microphone or line in
14:16:33peturdo you connect a microphone or line sinal to it?
14:16:47peturthe selection must be line-in
14:16:53croutonkid94I plug it into a dock and plug the mic into the dock
14:17:16peturthe input is probably not powered, and the mic requires power
14:17:36peturcan you attach another sound source to test (cd-player,...)?
14:17:36croutonkid94how do i power the input
14:17:58croutonkid94no... I don't have the right cable
14:18:06peturif this is the problem, you need a battery-box or mic-amp inbetween
14:18:17croutonkid94where can i find one of these?
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14:18:58peturthe recording source must always be set to line-in, this selects between doc connector and build-in mic or (in your case, I think) headphones connector
14:19:29croutonkid94ok thank you... would my preamp on my stereo work, or would it blow the ipod up?
14:19:43peturcroutonkid94: most electronics stores should have some cheap stuff
14:20:01*croutonkid94 is very grateful to petur
14:20:06peturgoing through your stereo should work, if you connect the line-out of the stereo to your dock
14:20:11croutonkid94I'll try it.
14:20:18GodEater_petur: I didn't think the headphone connector worked as a input on the nano? I thought that was 3G only ?
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14:21:00peturI wouldn't know - just guessing. If it wouldn't work, there wouldn't be a source selection possible (or wanted)
14:22:06*petur runs off again to mind his STM-1 code
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14:44:56kugelmidijunkie: fuze still works
14:46:47midijunkieso what wrong with mine
14:47:05midijunkieintern memory is free, so rbs should be within 1gb
14:47:14kugelmidijunkie: try updating the bootloader
14:48:48midijunkiehmm, another flash? diddnt know that
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15:03:44FlynDicekugel:I saw you put in some code to read the CP15 control register 1 in the i/o port page. I hacked something together the other day to get that info but your way much simpler... I've cloned your code to also read the c5 and c6 registers which are the fault status and fault address registers. There should be some clues as to how the ttb tables need to be set up. Any ideas on this?
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15:12:30kugelFlynDice: I assume ttb tables are relatively easy to set up. virtually any other target uses 4k at the end of the RAM
15:12:45kugelthe F/X too, which have the nearly same processor
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15:19:42midijunkiestuck building the patched fw. make rkamsboot doenst work. some errors and no rkamsboot.
15:21:39FlynDicekugel: Yes but I'm going to try to see what faults and addresses come up with some different configurations. Would the 1GB issue be a problem with getting the tables set up? Heading out now back in a bit
15:22:52kugelFlynDice: no, the 1GB seems completely unrelated
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15:34:20midijunkie..ok, new bootloader. but rbx still downst want to boot properly
15:35:48midijunkiesame problem
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15:50:02kugelmidijunkie: can't help then. It works on my fuze
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15:53:59midijunkienew bootloader, rbx recompiled etc but doenst work
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16:20:43midijunkier20327 works
16:24:50kugelmidijunkie: I changed some fuze code, which is why you probably need to update the bootloader. I'm running r20338 bootloader and r20338 main binary without problems
16:25:17midijunkieyea, did that
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16:29:24kugelmidijunkie: well, it seems to me that you didn't do it properly
16:29:37midijunkieupdated the bootloader and it is definatly r30388
16:29:51midijunkiebooting without .rockbox shows r20388
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16:30:31pondlifekugel: If you get a chance could you see if #8894 now works on a 64-bit sim?
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16:31:16pondlifeI just replaced int/long long with int32_t/int64_t
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16:33:54kugelpondlife: I think I tried that too, without success. But sure
16:34:36kugelI wonder if it's possible to avoid 8byte datatypes. That'll improve performance quite a bit
16:36:01kugelmidijunkie: and what was the exact problem again?
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16:37:15midijunkiebootloader shows up and boots the fw, but the display turn black like the scrollwheel
16:37:31midijunkieand it doesnt react to any buttons
16:37:46midijunkiehave to hold turn off till its off
16:39:12kugelmidijunkie: can you try toggling the hold switch?
16:39:54midijunkieyes, sec.
16:41:36kugelI have no problems with default settings either
16:42:53midijunkietoggling hold does nothing
16:43:31kugelI can "simulate" your problem if I quickly turn hold on after turning the player on, but that's all :(
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16:47:37midijunkiemm, im always getting this blackscreen
16:48:32midijunkier20327 works just fine.
16:49:00midijunkietesting r20331
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16:56:45rashergevaerts: we should implement clock setting on all software targets and write a small pc-side tool to set it
16:57:20evilnickrasher: Should that be part of rbutil?
16:57:28gevaertsrasher: I agree. It shouldn't be too hard
16:57:30rashergevaerts: Was the clock set before or after iTunes had identified it as an Ipod?
16:57:39rasherevilnick: good idea, but a stand-alone tool would also be neat
16:57:42rashergevaerts: pity :)
16:58:58evilnickrasher: I agree with the small standalone tool, but was thinking of the end-users who'd be using rbutil. Nice to have everything in one place
16:59:20rasherevilnick: certainly
17:01:26amiconnMake it a service on windows that automagically sets the clock...
17:02:22Tuplanollathat would be awesome
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17:02:49Lloreanrbservice - sets the clock, checks for updates (based on your preference of Releases or All Update), etc, etc? :-P
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17:04:13linuxstbgevaerts: When in the syncing process did itunes send the "time" message?
17:04:24linuxstb(from your USB log...)
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17:10:45rasheramiconn: would be smarter anyway, since I assume custom scsi stuff requires admin priveledges
17:11:18gevaertslinuxstb: I'm not enterly sure actually...
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17:17:42linuxstbThe code I'm writing for ipodpatcher to perform the SCSI inquries will probably be useful for that.
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17:53:35kugelhow would sorting "a1" before "a00" be? to fix FS #10029 sorting must not ignore "leading" zeroes within a string (leading as in if the string before the first 0 is the same)
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17:54:28JdGordon|wthis is why we shuoldnt ever have done any sorting other than asciibetical
17:54:32kugela0 < a1 < a00 < a01 <a10
17:54:46kugelJdGordon|w: turn it on, then
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17:56:46kugelthis would also give better sortings for decimal numbers (1.x before 1.00x, etc)
17:57:24rasherkugel: a1 => a{1} a00 => a{0}, and hence a1 should be after a00. Why not?
17:58:44rashera0 and a00 should sort "the same"
17:58:48kugelrasher: if there's a char after the numbers, sorting will mess up because 0's are ignored
17:58:56kugelsee FS #10029
17:59:30rasherkugel: it's not about ignoring 0s...
17:59:43rasher00 should sort as 0
17:59:59kugela00 sorts as a, currently
18:00:04rasherThat's broken.
18:00:10kugelyes it is
18:00:17kugeland I'm searching for a way to fix
18:00:28kugel1 way is to not ignore zeroes within strings
18:01:19kugelwhich would be fine for decimal numbers too (see example at
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18:02:14kugelrasher: ignoring the zeroes isn't in the original implementation, nico_p changed that.
18:10:35*kugel doesn't really think "a001" and "a1" should sort the same, somehow
18:11:42Bagderbut they don't, do they?
18:11:56Bagdernatsort would be 0 and then it would do strcmp which differs
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18:15:34kugelBagder: they don't sort the same with natsort too, because (in our version) zeroes are ignored. But that leads to "a01_" < "a00_"
18:16:16Bagderit should only ignore leading zeroes, not all
18:16:31kugelthat's what I'm saying, but rasher seems to disagree
18:17:00Bagderbut you said a001 and a1 and for those my reasoning holds
18:17:08amiconnIn your a00 example, the first 0 is a leading one, the last one isn't
18:17:24amiconnIn a001, both zeroes are leading ones
18:17:49LloreanI think kugel's thinking of leading as "absolute" leading, as in "the beginning of the string only"
18:18:34BagderI won't argue much with this, since I find it a slippery slope the whole thing ;-)
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18:18:44LloreanWhat we need is "numbers reduced to the least number of digits that still express the number" so 1000 stays 1000, any number of 0s becomes 0, and 00000001 becomes 1 etc.
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18:30:50Unhelpfulyou could only ignore zeroes after whitespace
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18:33:22*kugel thinks it should be "a0001" < "a001" < "a01" < "a"
18:33:58Bagderisn't it already?
18:34:07Bagdernatsort would be 0 and then it would do strcmp which differs
18:34:39Unhelpfulkugel: i can't help reading those as hex numbers
18:36:07kugelBagder: yea. but what about "a02" and "a1"?
18:36:29kugelimo, a02 < a1
18:36:46LloreanIf we're interpreting them as numbers (like the name suggests) that should sort "a1, a02"
18:36:59Bagderleading zeroes don't count
18:37:04Bagder010 is still 10
18:37:08LloreanThe problem is with 0s without numbers following vanishing.
18:37:27kugeland what about "1.002" and "1.1"?
18:37:37Bagderkugel: I think your version is a strange mix of nat and ascii
18:37:55kugelit's not my version at all
18:38:00Lloreankugel: Those are decimal numbers. Do you think we also intend 1001 to be treated as 11 or 1 and 1?
18:38:07Bagderkugel: I would guess a nat advocate would say support decimal numbers
18:38:30Bagdersince a "human" would consider 1.0002 to be less than 1.1
18:38:52Bagderthis is the slippery slope I mentioned
18:38:55BagderI use ascii sort
18:39:40LloreanOf course, the question arises for type situations but you can always just say "decimal points count as a digit, as do commas" and leave it at that.
18:39:54Bagderhaha, yeah it never stops
18:40:45gevaertsyes, what about π? Should it sort before or after 3.141592?
18:41:07Lloreangevaerts: As long as "e" and "c" aren't given numeric values, neither should we do so for π. :-P
18:41:34Unhelpfulis there are appropriate unicode symbol for e-the-natural-log-base? because we must make sure that sorts properly
18:41:42Unhelpfuland i've no idea where to put i ;)
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18:42:37LloreanUnhelpful: In inverted text, upside down, at the bottom of the list (or top, if you flip the player to read it)
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18:43:27 Part pondlife
18:43:51UnhelpfulLlorean: no, no, no, we're already sorting real values vertically, i think imaginary components need a left/right axis
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18:44:49LloreanUnhelpful: If it's fully reversed, all imaginary text will be drawn RTL anyway.
18:44:57LloreanWell, RTL when the screen isn't inverted.
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18:45:59LloreanAnyway, about realistically used numbers.
18:46:34LloreanFor sorting decimals, don't . and , just need to be digits with a value "less" than 0?
18:47:39LloreanI mean, after the first, so 1.0000000 and 1.000.00 means the latter comes first in the list.
18:50:58gevaertsIf we're going to ship without rockbox usb, I guess I'd better revert r20105 in 3.2 now. Any objections?
18:51:08LloreanNot I.
18:51:35LloreanIt needs to be done, and sooner is probably better
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18:52:57Bagdergevaerts: go go go
18:55:24n1sis FS #10029 a feature of the new sorting thing?
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18:57:50Lloreann1s: "Feature", "bug", seems to be debated.
18:58:43LloreanI seem to recall one other task being posted for something similar recently.
19:02:08LloreanAny chance the new natural sort bug wasn't there before FS9972?
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19:06:03Lloreankugel: Any chance the function 9972 removed wasn't really unused?
19:08:17rasherkugel: I don't see why it tries to ignore leading zeroes at all
19:08:31rasherIt should just treat them like it does everywhere else
19:08:52Lloreanrasher: "always assume leading zeros are intentional"?
19:09:21rasherNot sure what you mean with that
19:09:37rasherIt should just collapse zeroes (anywhere) until you end with a "natural" number. Such as "001" > "1" and "00000" > "0"
19:10:08LloreanAh, I thought you were talking about say, 01 vs 1 vs 001
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19:10:30rasherNo, that comes down to strcmp()
19:10:41rashernatcmp should compare those to equal
19:10:58LloreanYeah, leading zeros should "collapse".
19:11:12LloreanNo number should vanish, just become the minimum number of digits to still be that number.
19:11:18kugelLlorean: no, it was unused, due to ignoring leading zeroes at all
19:11:19LloreanSo 1.0002000 becomes 1.0002
19:11:43rasherkugel: What was the reason for ignoring leading zeroes?
19:11:44Lloreankugel: So if we remove ignoring leading zeros, and add that back in, will it start working like *we* expect it to?
19:12:05kugelrasher: having 03 before 4, for example
19:12:22rasherBut natsort already does that
19:12:27rasherOr should
19:12:28Lloreankugel: 03 before 4 happens if you "collapse"
19:12:49kugelrasher: the original implementation does not do that
19:13:01rasherkugel: willing to place a bet?
19:13:05Lloreankugel: The original implementation's page describing the algorithm it claims it does.
19:13:33kugelrasher: I tried it (by removing a == '0' in nat_isspace), but maybe my memory is wrong
19:14:08kugelLlorean: it does describe what?
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19:14:59rasherkugel: I'm willing to bet that you either do remember wrong, that your test was wrong, or that there's a bug in Rockbox' implementation.
19:15:32kugelrasher: did you just try? remember that you need compare_left again if you remove a == '0'
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19:16:05rasherLooks like I just lost a bet
19:16:28rasher> Leading zeros are not ignored, which tends to give more reasonable results on decimal fractions.
19:16:33rasher> 1.001 < 1.002 < 1.010 < 1.02 < 1.1 < 1.3
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19:17:33rasherI don't think we want to keep that behaviour (and it's also noted right below that quote that some applications might not want to)
19:18:52Lloreanrasher: I thought we do want decimals treated as decimals.
19:19:13rasherBut natsort doesn't do that by treating them as decimals though
19:19:13LloreanI also don't really see why leading zeros *should* be ignored. If they're there, they're probably intentional.
19:19:20kugelrasher: that's why Nico_p decided to ignore such leading zeroes
19:19:23Lloreanrasher: But it has the same net effect.
19:19:36LloreanWhat's the argument *for* ignoring leading zeros? "Someone might have put them there and not wanted them?"
19:19:39rasherLlorean: yes.. but also the side effect that 03 sorts after 4
19:19:56Lloreanrasher: And when do you intentionally have a 03 and a 4 and NOT want it sorted before the 4?
19:19:57kugeland for natsort, leading zeros are also those which come after a constant string
19:20:21LloreanNatsort is supposed to fix 1, 2, 3, 10, 11, 12 issues.
19:20:29rasherLlorean: But if we want both decimals sorted correctly AND 03 to sort after 4, that'd need major surgery I expect
19:20:46Lloreanrasher: you haven't answered *why* we want 03 after 4?
19:20:53LloreanWho would have things labelled this way, reasonably?
19:20:53rasherLlorean: we don't!
19:21:10rasherBut we can't have it both ways
19:21:12LloreanWell, 03 is before 4 with either sort right now, isn't it?
19:21:17LloreanOr did you mean 04 after 3?
19:21:40rasherYes, but this breaks decimal sorting, and it seems it also breaks "00"
19:21:43LloreanAnd I still don't see why "numbers with leading zeros" should have those 0s ignored in favor of sorting decimals properly
19:21:47kugelLlorean: original natsort does 03 < 2 < 4
19:22:06LloreanI'd rather have 04, 3 and 1.002 , 1.1 than 3, 04 and 1.1, 1.002
19:22:18rasherLlorean: Problem is "." is treated as a space
19:22:25Lloreanrasher: Yes
19:22:33LloreanYou're neither answering my question: WHY should we ignore leading 0s?
19:22:36LloreanThey're almost always intentional
19:22:46LloreanThe natural sorting is supposed to fix when there are NOT leading zeros
19:23:05rasherSo you want 04, 3 ?
19:23:10LloreanIf we don't ignore leading zeros, most problems go away, and the only one we're left with is the 03, 2, 4 situation which may well be intentional anyway
19:23:13LloreanYes, I do.
19:23:19LloreanBecause I don't see why we should assume that's not intentional
19:23:21rasherRight. Well I consider that broken sorting
19:23:26kugelrasher: . is not treated as space
19:23:32Lloreanrasher: Why do you?
19:23:36kugelit's a char, just like a
19:23:47rasherkugel: I mean as a separator between numbers
19:23:53kugelhence my a02 < a1 vs 1.02 < 1.1 example
19:23:54rasherLlorean: because 4 > 3
19:24:01Lloreanrasher: So we assume people labelled their files wrong?
19:24:11LloreanThe 1, 2, 3, 10, 11, 12 issue doesn't assume any character *doesn't* belong
19:24:18Lloreanit just assumes that there's implied order.
19:24:26LloreanYou're saying "we should ignore something the user typed in"
19:24:37rasherYou're assuming the user typed every filename out by hand
19:24:53Lloreanrasher: You think an automatic script would then put 03, 4, 2 as file numbers?
19:24:55rasherOr that they didn't just toss a bunch of albums together in one dir
19:25:05rasherLlorean: I'm not saying that.
19:25:18LloreanI'd rather not ignore parts of filenames arbitrarily
19:25:20*kugel agrees with Llorean
19:25:28rasherJust saying it could happen in a number of other ways than "user has carefully typed in every filename"
19:25:38LloreanYou're basically saying, to users, "no matter what you type, you can't force the ordering while maintaining the natural functions for other numbers"
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19:26:18kugel2 < 03 is minor, compared to abc01 < abc00 (FS #10029)
19:26:21rasherWe obviously disagree. I don't care much
19:26:43LloreanUnrelated: responded!
19:26:49Llorean"Thank you for your message. In the scenario you have described below, it is not necessary for Rockbox to obtain a VID. Please let us know if you have any additional questions."
19:27:18kugelthat doesn't really answer our question
19:27:36rasherIt answers the first part, and consideres the latter to be irrelevant?
19:27:47LloreanBasically, yes.
19:27:50kugelwe knew that it's not necessary. We want to know if we still should get one (recommendation) and whether this is even possible for a non-legal entity
19:28:22Lloreankugel: Well, I think that says "you shouldn't". I think if they felt it was "right" that we get one, they would've told us to.
19:28:35LloreanWe've basically been told that we aren't doing anything "wrong" by not getting one.
19:28:37rasherkugel: We knew it wasn't necessary for *us*, but we wanted to know if they thought we should.
19:28:46rasherWhich they don't.
19:29:03rasherHaving them say "it's not necessary" is very different from us saying it
19:29:14kugelif we want to have media players to recognize rockbox'd players we need one, still, I think
19:29:37Lloreankugel: Nah, the SCSI enquiry magic and presence of rockbox-info.txt can both handle that.
19:29:56kugelah, right, cool then
19:29:57LloreanAnd allow us to not break software that already recognizes these players by VID/PID
19:30:25kugeland with SCSI magic the software can tell which os is just running?
19:30:53rasherI don't think we should require/encourage using the scsi stuff
19:31:17Lloreanrasher: Not for anything that doesn't need it.
19:31:33rasherI think pointing them to rockbox-info.txt is far better
19:31:39LloreanBut detecting which USB mode is in use (OF or RB) does need it.
19:31:43rasherIt's both simpler, and can be done without admin rights
19:31:47kugelI think I'll restore the not-ignoring leading zeroes
19:31:48LloreanA -info.txt can even be present on devices without RB.
19:32:04rasherLlorean: Unlikely
19:32:05kugelbut that will give a02 < a1, too, just to let you know
19:32:21Lloreanrasher: If someone uninstalled the Rockbox bootloader, and is now using their OF iPod with Amarok?
19:32:30kugelbut that doesn't look unnatural to if you see it (if you ask me)
19:33:01rasherLlorean: Then it'll probably detect is as an ipod first - but even so if it's detected as a Rockbox device, that's no big disaster
19:33:14rasherUser should just think "oh, there must still be some rockbox left"
19:33:18kugelwith some magic we could special case the "real" leading zeros, and still have 03 before 2
19:33:24kugeleh, 2 before 03
19:33:43Lloreanrasher: Yeah, but I'm thinking of things that maybe silently handle the two differently. I guess that's their problem though, not ours.
19:34:14rasherLlorean: I just think relying on what is basically proprietary scsi magic is silly
19:34:48LloreanIt's not really proprietary, is it? I mean, it's something we could do our own way anyway.
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19:35:11LloreanAt the very least, the time setting is going to be a nice feature, so things are probably going to want to be able to do them anyway.
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19:36:57rasherkugel: that sounds like a recipe for disaster
19:37:31rasherSpecial casing usually just ends up in tears
19:38:38rasherAnd as I said, I don't care much. So just going with what the algorithm gives us might be best
19:39:18LloreanIf it's a commonly used algorithm, at least using it the original way means our files will probably list the same order as some other OSS software "naturally" sorts them?
19:39:50rasherThat too
19:41:26kugelso, don't do 2 < 03?
19:41:47kugelI don't care much, I don't have such strangely named files in 1 dir
19:42:02LloreanMy vote is "the algorithm as originally written, without our modifications" I think
19:42:32kugelsounds reasonable
19:43:05rasherYes, go ahead
19:44:31LloreanAt the very least, we can now tell people to take arguments about the "proper" order upstream. :-P
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19:45:30kugelwe have some changes though, the to_int stuff
19:45:48kugelthe original implementation does weird casting, which also causes unicode weirdness
19:48:35LloreanWell I'm more talking about preserving the general algorithm, rather than the code.
19:49:07rasherAgain, agreed
19:49:40bubsyhow is the rockbox dev going?
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19:59:27gevaertsI have the number of days since January 1st. Is there something in the rockbox core that will give me month and day?
20:01:17n1sgevaerts: this year?
20:01:25Bagderhaha, I really don't agree with the not-ignoring leading zeroes
20:01:44Bagderbut I'll shutup, I think it's entirely crazy anyway
20:01:51gevaertsn1s: I have the year as well. Sorry, should have specified that
20:01:58LloreanBagder: From that sentence I can't tell which side you don't agree with anyway. :-P
20:02:10BagderI think it should ignore leading zeroes
20:02:17Bagder1 02 3 04
20:02:32n1sgevaerts: the various rtc chips store the date in different ways and may contain what you want
20:02:33Bagder00 1 02 3 04 even
20:02:46n1stheir drivers even
20:02:49rasherBagder: How about "foo 01" "foo 2"?
20:02:51LloreanBagder: I just think the "mixed" cases are probably going to be so uncommon as to not matter, while the other things not ignoring them will fix will be much more common.
20:02:57gevaertsn1s: it won't be in the shared core then I guess
20:03:09Bagderrasher: 01 before 2
20:03:28rasherBagder: But then they're no longer "true leading". And we need to get into word separators
20:03:42Bagderthey're leading in the number, and we sort on numbers
20:03:44rasherAnd it all gets hairy as long as we also want to sort 1.01 before 1.1
20:03:52kugelthis should be backported to the 3.2 branch, right?
20:04:08Bagderbut as I said, I won't push for it
20:04:29obogevaerts: it'd be easy enough to make turn what you have into time_t - then use localtime on it?
20:04:38n1sgevaerts: no, don't think there's anything like that in the shared core
20:04:52kugelBagder: as I said, real leading numbers could be special cased rather easily, but I don't care so much, and we disagreed
20:05:23Bagderright, but still you committed a change...
20:05:41rasherSeems at least 3 rtc drivers have their own is_leap_year (or code to that effect)
20:05:50kugelyes, because it fixes numbers within strings and decimal numbers
20:05:58LloreanBagder: Well, it's currently a case of "which cases do we wish to break"
20:06:05gevaertsobo: good idea
20:06:15LloreanBagder: Do we wish to break mixed (1, 02, 3, 04), or "decimal and 00s within strings"
20:06:18BagderLlorean: right, but natsort was always that
20:06:53kugelLlorean: we could have both working
20:07:25Lloreankugel: And I wouldn't object. In my opinion, leading zeros should be assumed intentional rather than assuming that a mixed selection is actually supposed to be sorted mixed.
20:07:38LloreanEven if you have 1, 02, 3, 04, odds are they came from different albums and don't need to be numerically sorted anyway
20:07:54kugeland I don't disagree
20:08:14LloreanBut I'd rather things just work consistently in general for the other cases, independently of what happens to the 1, 02, 3, 04 case
20:08:23rasherLlorean: Consider the case of "tossing 10 albums into one dir", sorting ignoring leading zeroes would have all "track 2" together
20:08:40Lloreanrasher: What good does that do, exactly?
20:08:47rasherEasier to find?
20:09:03Lloreando you generally throw a bunch of files in one folder to make them easier to find?
20:09:11rasher*I* don't
20:09:20rasherPeople do the weirdest stuff though
20:09:40LloreanSo, the choice is "break it for people who name things intentionally, in favour of people who throw files around randomly" or "break it for people who throw files around randomly, in favour of people who actually take care in naming"
20:10:12rasherWhy would anyone intentionally mix 1 2 3 5 and 04, and expect 04 to sort last?
20:10:15rasherThat's at least as weird
20:10:36LloreanFolder names. I still expect 007 to come before 4.
20:10:42kugelalso, I think sorting "03 1 2 10", isn't crazy, but trying to correctly sort those weird filenames is :)
20:10:45LloreanEven if I expect 10 to come after 9.
20:11:17kugelrasher: a) you just agreed on not special casing this, b) 04 is sorted first
20:11:17rasherLlorean: that seems like you want to have it both ways
20:11:38rasherkugel: I did, just continuing the argument :)
20:11:46Lloreanrasher: I want "numbers as people write them" to be interpreted. People don't start lists with 001 normally
20:11:46rasherright, first.
20:12:08rasherWe need to get this neural interface ready soon.
20:12:11Lloreanrasher: It is both ways. "Don't assume the user is stupid in picking names" but also "let the user assume you're smart" in terms of 1, 2, 10, 11
20:12:12gevaertsobo: except localtime() isn't in rockbox either...
20:12:12kugelnothing is set into stone, we can still do it, I don't care much enough for a discussion about it though
20:12:55rasherkugel: I stand by what I said, and think Rockbox should stick to the published algorithm
20:12:55LloreanBasically, "don't MAKE the user do things to sort in order, but assume if the user DOES do things they're intentional"
20:13:05kugelI think there's good reasons for and against in the 2 < 03 case
20:13:28LloreanSticking by the published algorithm is probably the best way to avoid arguments, since we can all say "ah well, that's how 'it' works"
20:13:44kugelthat's easy, easy is good :P
20:13:45*gevaerts thinks that the rockbox time code is a mess
20:13:46LloreanIt's definitely one of those "personal preference" areas again, otherwise.
20:13:59rasherLlorean: I'm seeing it as "*always* sort numbers as their numerical value, because that's consistant"
20:14:14kugelthat doesn't work
20:14:24obogevaerts: sorry, I got lost in a maze of #ifdefs... localtime only exists on sims
20:14:35n1sgevaerts: it is indeed
20:14:43Lloreanrasher: They're both consistent, they just both need you to know what sort of consistency to expect.
20:15:01rasherLlorean: Sure. But I'm obviously right!
20:15:29kugelwell, it was not consistent
20:15:30LloreanWell, we still have a reference implementation to refer to. I really like the idea of writing it off as "not our problem"
20:15:40rashergevaerts: maybe it's time to move is_leap_year to somewhere central?
20:15:48kugelit sorted a00 before a01, but a01_ before a00_
20:15:49rasherrather than having one in each rtc driver..
20:15:57gevaertsrasher: if it was only is_leap_year(), it would be fine...
20:16:09rashergevaerts: well, the date and day follows, surely?
20:16:17rashereh, month and day
20:16:56LloreanBagder, gevaerts: Did you see the USB VID question was finally answered?
20:17:18gevaertsLlorean: no
20:17:25Lloreangevaerts: "Thank you for your message. In the scenario you have described below, it is not necessary for Rockbox to obtain a VID. Please let us know if you have any additional questions."
20:17:38gevaertsok, so re-using is fine
20:17:39LloreanAs far as is concerned, our method of using the OF's VIDs is valid.
20:17:56LloreanAnd we explicitly mentioned the MTP -> UMS of the Gigabeat S.
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20:20:54n1sah, now i remember the fun thing about the time code, it converts to and from bcd for almost all rtc's wich means that at least some drivers need to undo this conversion :)
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20:21:44n1sso, any h10 or mrobe people want to test fs#10018 today?
20:22:11 Quit faemir (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
20:23:46bertrikgevaerts, I agree about the rtc
20:24:56*gevaerts "solved" it by leaving this to the next person. FS #10023 has the itunes clock patch, but not the rockbox setting code
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20:26:02gevaertsI do USB :)
20:26:28gevaertsn1s: I can test on H10 5GB UMS
20:28:01n1sgevaerts: lovely
20:28:17gevaertsunfortunately my mr100 is still in a semi-dead state
20:28:32*n1s has no idea how different the different h10 models are
20:28:48LambdaCalculus37n1s: LCD and HD capacity are the biggest differences.
20:29:28n1sLambdaCalculus37: ok, so i guess we can assume that a small change to the bootloader should work fine on one kind if it works on the other?
20:29:58LambdaCalculus37n1s: I don't see why not, although I don't own an H10 myself.
20:30:25gevaertsn1s: actually, with this particular change I think it's fairly safe to assume that if it works on any player, it will work on the others
20:30:36LambdaCalculus37gevaerts: What's wrong with your mr100?
20:31:32gevaertsLambdaCalculus37: I did too extensive testing on it, and now I can't get the OF to work at all. I also suspect that the disk may be bad
20:31:35n1sgevaerts: i think so too, but i think testing on at least one non-sansa player would be good :)
20:32:17pixelmahom important could the UMS vs MTP (I believe?) difference between the H10s be with n1s' patch?
20:32:38gevaertsthat shouldn't be involved at all
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20:33:52LambdaCalculus37gevaerts: The microdrive in the mr100 is the same as that in the H10 5GB.
20:34:14gevaertsLambdaCalculus37: I know. I'm still not going to swap them for bootloader testing :)
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20:40:33pixelmathe delta table seems to have a delay (both build with the delta appearing one round later were made on, maybe a hint?)
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20:54:17neldorethhey there - i just want to install rockbox to my creative zen vision:m 30gb with this tutorial - but i fail at the execute mkzenboot step, cause he says that he could not open the build/rockbox.zvmboot file - when should this be generated?
20:57:27LambdaCalculus37neldoreth: You do know that the ZVM is not a supported target yet, right?
20:57:35LambdaCalculus37It's only useful for developers.
20:58:25neldorethyeah i read that, but i still want to try it out - if as i see it is possible to play back the original firmware
20:59:12 Quit LambdaCalculus37 ("CGI:IRC 0.5.9 (2006/06/06)")
21:00:14gevaertsn1s: works fine
21:00:44n1sgevaerts: thanks
21:01:04gevaertsneldoreth: there's only one developer working on the zvm, and he's not here right now
21:01:48neldorethgevaerts: ok, i guess i will idle here in the cannel - maybe he shows up sometime - thank you
21:02:04gevaertsneldoreth: you want mcuelenaere
21:02:20neldorethok, thank you
21:04:37 Quit jhMikeS (Nick collision from services.)
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21:07:06n1srasher: are you going to build release bootloaders or are the ones in FS #9955 the ones that will be released?
21:07:25rashern1s: I don't think there's any reason to release new bootloaders at all
21:07:49n1sah, right, we didn't enable usb after all
21:08:34n1sok, the fs#10018 fix is probably not worth a new bootloader release on its ow so i'll leave the branch alone
21:09:50rasherI guess we'll want to release new bootloaders for 3.3
21:10:02n1syeah hopefully
21:12:04kugelI'm going to backport the strnatcmp changes, any voices against it?
21:12:24rasherkugel: FS #10030
21:13:32kugelrasher: haha
21:14:01kugelLlorean: he just changed nat_isspace to return true on 0 again (i.e. ignoring zeros
21:14:30kugeleven worse, that's just my whole commit reverted :O
21:14:36Lloreankugel: Still, he should start issuing patches.
21:14:45LloreanReject it, if it's just the reversion of yoru commit.
21:15:44***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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21:16:28*linuxstb spots tabs in strnatcmp.c...
21:17:44JdGordon|wrevert the whole file :)
21:18:35kugellinuxstb: the whole indentation is a nightmare in that file. tabs are the smallest problem
21:18:39linuxstbkugel: Your commit message says "doesn't sort 2 before 03" ? So the description in the manual is now wrong?
21:18:52kugellinuxstb: look at my last commit :)
21:19:19gevaertsJust rename the thing to "unpredictable ordering" and be done with it :)
21:19:41kugelit's perfectly predictable now
21:19:42*linuxstb wonders why r20343 isn't on the front page
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21:19:58kugelit lags sometimes
21:20:00rasherSurely it's always predictable unless you use rand()
21:21:47linuxstbThe manual just looks like nonsense now - i.e. sorting "03" before "2" isn't treating them "as whole numbers".
21:22:29rasherlinuxstb: But that's how The Algorithm works...
21:23:05linuxstbIs that how Windows/Finder/Nautilus work then?
21:23:07rasherThe idea is a) To sort decimal numbers such as 1.01 and 1.3 correctly b) If there's a 0, it's probably put there to enforce sorting order
21:23:08kugelhence I added the sentence about leading zeros
21:23:39linuxstbJust saying "taking account of leading zeros" doesn't actually describe what happens when you take them into account though...
21:23:50kugeland again, if 03 and 2 are in one dir, it's not unlikely to be intentional
21:24:02kugelhence the example table
21:24:38linuxstbI don't care enough to argue about the algorithm, it's just the description of it.
21:25:22*gevaerts wants /me wants the sorter to crash on 08 and 09
21:25:28kugelthen improve it. I think it's fine with the example table
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21:27:11mcuelenaereneldoreth: you had a problem with mkzenboot?
21:27:42neldorethhi mcuelenaere
21:28:41neldorethyeah, when i ran ./mzenboot *.exe etc - it said: [ERR] Could not open ../build/rockbox.zvmboot
21:28:48neldorethso i was wondering when this file should be generated
21:29:06mcuelenaerehave you got the Rockbox development environment installed?
21:29:22mcuelenaeres/have you got/do you have/
21:29:46neldoreththe arm-elf compilre?
21:30:03neldorethyeah, installed that
21:30:11neldorethwait i will check out the wiki if i have missed something
21:30:17mcuelenaereand you generated rockbox.zvmboot by building the ZVM Rockbox bootloader?
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21:31:04neldorethby executing make mkzenboot?
21:31:34mcuelenaereno, by executing tools/configure & make
21:31:51 Quit guest001 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
21:31:56neldorethyeah i ran that
21:32:08mcuelenaereand did it gave you rockbox.zvmboot?
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21:32:51neldorethit warned me about the cross compiler version
21:32:56*gevaerts thinks he knows a way to make USB write speed a bit faster, but he doesn't like the complexity it would add
21:33:19neldorethah i get an error while compiling
21:33:24mcuelenaereneldoreth: then I suppose you didn't run (I'm not sure whether the GCC version matters)
21:34:43neldorethah thats what ive missed compiles the crosscompilers
21:35:59neldorethat the target i will choose arm right?
21:36:13mcuelenaereit will take some time to complete though
21:36:20mcuelenaereon what OS are you building?
21:37:36neldoretharchlinux 64bit
21:38:19mcuelenaereok, then there's no performance loss
21:39:00 Part kugel
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21:41:02neldorethtakes some time, what i am compiling now is the cross-arm-elf compiler collection?
21:42:31mcuelenaereyes, with some Rockbox-specific patches
21:42:46mcuelenaerewhat version of arm-elf-gcc were you using before?
21:43:06*kugel wonders if creatives still work after my last nights commit
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21:43:18*mcuelenaere has no way to find out currently
21:43:49Bagdergcc 4.3.2 for ARM quite surely does not work correctly as-is for Rockbox
21:43:59kugelI removed HAVE_LCD_ENABLE, because it's not really implemented anyway
21:44:03 Quit bmbl ("Woah!")
21:44:04neldorethok compiling finished, but i get a "/usr/bin/arm-elf-ld: this linker was not configured to use sysroots" error
21:44:23linuxstbSounds like you have another ARM toolchain in your path?
21:44:33gevaertsneldoreth: make sure your path has the rockbox toolchain first
21:44:41Bagderouch arm-elf in /usr/bin
21:44:53neldorethi updated the path
21:45:37gevaertswhat does echo $PATH say?
21:45:38neldorethah ok, cause i should have removed my old installation first
21:46:24 Quit toffe82 (Connection timed out)
21:47:01gevaertsput /usr/local/arm-elf/bin first
21:47:16linuxstbDoesn't add it at the start of the path?
21:47:35*linuxstb sees that it doesn't can't change the path
21:48:10linuxstbIt does - after binutils is built and installed.
21:48:11neldorethok - above error fixed, but now he says that an object file is a not recognized file ".. /bitmaps/native/rockboxlogo.320x98x16.o: file not recognized: File format not recognized"
21:48:23linuxstbThe target binutils must be in the path for gcc to compile.
21:48:31gevaertsah yes
21:48:33gevaertsneldoreth: make clean
21:48:35linuxstb(only temporarily though)
21:48:51neldorethgevaerts: ok
21:49:07linuxstbBagder: Do you think should put $bindir at the start of the path?
21:49:14Bagderyes I do
21:49:25neldoreththank you all by now
21:49:35linuxstbBagder: OK, I'll do it.
21:49:35Bagderneldoreth's setup for example will probably cause problems while building otherwise
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21:51:56neldorethok the compiling went through now without any problems
21:52:11neldorethbut i still got now rockbox.zvmboot
21:52:41linuxstbBagder: Is there a reason for "${PATH}:$bindir" - i.e. {} for one var, but not the other?
21:52:49mcuelenaereneldoreth: what did you select when doing tools/configure?
21:53:16neldoreth90 (?) for the creative zen and then N
21:53:30Bagderlinuxstb: just a habit of mine I believe, to make the colon not be treated as part of the name, as the second name as no trailing colon
21:53:39neldorethah i should have select bootloader :X
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21:54:46linuxstbBagder: Bah, then I should have done it differently to my commit? Why would the colon be treated as part of the name though?
21:55:17neldoreth"undefined reference to `lcd_enable'" do i need another lib?
21:55:26Bagderlinuxstb: it's just a precaution to work with a wider range of shells, I can't recall off the top of my head which had problems with it
21:55:27mcuelenaerenope, that's just kugel :P
21:55:36kugelupdate your repo
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21:58:51Llorean kugel: Why'd you re-open the task?
21:59:55 Quit MethoS- (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
22:00:53 Quit perrikwp (" ajax IRC Client")
22:01:00fmlkugel: are you sure about your recent changes to the natural sorting documentation? Does "03 Jackson" really go before "1 Ring of fire"? Is that "natural"?
22:01:31kugelLlorean: I want to see the patch. I wrote to the ml that it's possibly be closed again
22:01:46kugelfml: that's what the algorithm does, yes.
22:01:52 Quit evilnick (" Boing, time for bed")
22:01:59Lloreanfml: See the logs in here, it's been quite discussed.
22:03:11LloreanBasically, ignoring 0s introduces a different set of problems with the sort. Since it's a matter of preference (which problems we want, which we don't) we're using the existing algorithm rather than introducing our own changes into it (in the partial hope that at least we'll sort consistently with other software using the same algorithm)
22:04:21kugelfml: not forget that this is an arbitary and totally artificial example. If there's really such layout in a folder, then there's a good chance that it's being intention
22:04:22neldorethdid any of the above answers affected my question
22:04:41kugelneldoreth: yes, I asked you to update your local repo
22:04:45 Join MethoS- [0] (
22:05:09neldorethmy system is up 2 date
22:05:17neldorethconcerning the packages in the offic repo
22:05:41gevaertsneldoreth: please use real words here
22:06:06neldorethmy system is up to date, if we're talking about the packages in the official repository
22:06:38gevaertswe're not :) The subversion repository
22:07:01neldorethah ok
22:07:31neldorethsame error (did configure and make again)
22:08:02mcuelenaereit seems to be ok on the build table?
22:08:25mcuelenaereneldoreth: have you tried make clean/make veryclean?
22:08:35 Join Ubuntuxer [0] (
22:08:59gevaertsand you did svn up?
22:09:14mcuelenaeretry rm -Rf * in your build dir
22:09:21neldorethmy revision is 20346
22:09:24neldorethcd BUMBACL0T
22:09:57neldorethmcuelenaere: still the same
22:10:21*mcuelenaere starts his VM
22:11:13neldoreth - if youre interested, thats the whole error message
22:11:54mcuelenaerehmm looks like the bootloaders aren't added to the build table
22:12:11Bagderuh, right
22:12:30mcuelenaereso your error will probably be valid :)
22:12:58Bagdermcuelenaere: which do you think makes sense to add?
22:13:21mcuelenaereprobably the ZVM30GB
22:13:40mcuelenaerethe ZVM60GB is identical and the Zen Vision almost too
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22:13:48Bagderok, I'll add the 30 bootloader
22:14:35kugelneldoreth: which target are you building?
22:15:24neldoreth90 - Zen Vision:M 30GB - and then B(ootloader)
22:15:31mcuelenaeresame error here
22:15:51kugelneldoreth: that one is on the build table and shows no error
22:15:55BigBambi_Am I correct in thinking that the h100,h300,m5,x5,mrobe100 are the targets with lcd remote?
22:16:01Bagderkugel: no, not the bootloader
22:16:03mcuelenaerekugel: no it's not
22:16:07kugeloh sorry
22:16:10Bagderit will be at next commit!
22:17:22JdGordon|wBigBambi_: and mr500
22:17:29kugelthis happens when such functions aren't #ifdef'd (like they should)
22:17:40kugelpoor kugels are trapped :(
22:17:46BigBambi_JdGordon: Thanks.
22:18:20JdGordon|w speaking of which.... kugel I lied apparently last night when i said the rec had a remote lcd...
22:18:33domonokyBagder: can you also add the e200v2 main build ? its still missing in the build table :-)
22:18:35kugelJdGordon|w: I noticed
22:18:44Bagderdomonoky: oh certainly!
22:18:50 Quit MethoS-- (Connection timed out)
22:19:05JdGordon|woh FFS.... i forgot to forward ports... Bagder you added my server back in yet?
22:19:05fmlLlorean, kugel: I've read the log and still don't like putting "03" before "1". It does not interpret a sequence of digits as "a whole number" (as the menu entry promises). And I'd only care about integers because fractions are subject to localization (in Germany, a dot is used as a group separator, not as a decimal point)
22:19:13 Join MethoS-- [0] (
22:19:22BagderJdGordon: oh not yet, I forgot about it!
22:19:44fmlSo any non-digit char would terminate a sequence of digits after which it should be converted to a number
22:19:59kugelfml: it doesn't have todo with localization. It's the same for all chars, not only the dot
22:20:08Lloreanfml: This way works with commas as a decimal mark too.
22:20:36kugelBagder: did you add?
22:20:58fmlLlorean: err.... But not with group separators, right?
22:21:21Bagderkugel: I added, but what specifically are you asking about?
22:21:31kugelthe e200v2
22:21:36Bagderyeah, added now
22:21:42Bagderand the zvm30 bootloader
22:21:45kugelso I hit the commit button
22:21:52Lloreanfml: Group separators still work as individual numbers work.
22:21:52Bagdergo go go
22:22:05fmlLlorean: how would "10.002" and "20" be sorted?
22:22:08kugelafter a test build :p
22:22:13Lloreanfml: 10.002, 20
22:22:16*Bagder regenerates a set of target name pictures too
22:22:18 Quit AndyI ()
22:22:34*JdGordon|w thinks thats wrong
22:22:42JdGordon|w20 should be before 10.002
22:22:50Bagderit never ends
22:23:05JdGordon|woh wait... this is what work does to me... /me shuts up
22:23:11*gevaerts proposes to revert the entire thing until people know what they want
22:23:13Lloreanfml: Oh, you mean "10.002" as ten thousand and two, not a group of two numbers, 10 and 002?
22:23:30fmlLlorean: yes
22:23:35LloreanYou can't ever sort that right
22:23:43JdGordon|wcan we scrap the whole thing and just let the user define a set of sort rules?
22:23:43gevaertsLlorean: or comma :)
22:23:45LloreanNot without localization-specific sort algorithms.
22:23:59*Bagder prepares the channel for the grand... 100 BUILD TABLE
22:24:05Bagderstand back
22:24:10*JdGordon|w holds on
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22:24:17*kugel cries
22:24:19LloreanJdGordon|w: Drop natural sort entirely, then add a scripting engine in whereby the user can write their own sorting algorithms.
22:24:25gevaertsYou *can't* do localization-specific algorithms unless all titles are in the same language, which is absolutely not a given with music
22:24:37JdGordon|wLlorean: yes
22:24:47*Bagder would prefer lcd_enable() to be an empty macro for the targets without it
22:24:50fmlLlorean: ok, so any non digit symbol means that a sequence of digits has ended, right? But then I don't get why "03" goes before "1"
22:25:01JdGordon|wit doesnt have to be complicated, just some simple mechanism to allow the user to decide how they want it
22:25:08Lloreanfml: Because that's the way the original algorithm works.
22:25:19*JdGordon|w takes that back... heaven forbid we allow the user to choose anything
22:25:21 Quit Thundercloud (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:25:24Lloreanfml: Give me a case whereby someone *accidentally* put a 0 before a 3, and didn't mean it to be there on purpose to alter the sort?
22:25:38rasherJdGordon|w: having this as an option is more than most other pieces of software do
22:25:48JdGordon|wand thats bad why?
22:25:48fmlLlorean: the files may have been ripped at different times.
22:25:48jhulstDoes the build server cache SSH hosts keys? I'm moving hosts and the host key is going to be different.
22:25:53 Quit MethoS- (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
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22:25:57*gevaerts doesn't think that "this original algorithm we found somewhere does it this way" is a good reason for any decision
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22:26:02Bagderjhulst: it actually ignores them
22:26:12rasherJdGordon|w: I'm not saying it's bad, I'm saying that complaining that we don't allow users choice is just stupid.
22:26:25jhulstBagder: Well, it just proved it anyway. The build is running on the new machine fine...
22:26:39Lloreanfml: Using different programs then?
22:26:54fmlLlorean: e.g. if I had this option from the beginning, I wouldn't put leading zeroes in the file names. But I did. Now I wouldn't do that again.
22:27:05JdGordon|wrasher: that last line was a sarcastic complaint about our general reluctance/refusal to even give the user a choice.. about anything
22:27:07Lloreanfml: If they come from different albums, why to they need to be sorted relative to one another. If they came from one, you have a pretty complex situation to get to a case where you have 03, 2 and it needs to be in the other order.
22:27:17kugelfml: 1 still sorts before 10
22:27:23rasherJdGordon|w: That's still a stupid thing to say.
22:27:30Lloreanfml: Do you really have songs that need numerical order, but have 03, 2, 4, 5 in one folder (and not separate folders)?
22:27:48pixelmaBagder, jhulst: is there anything that would explain the delayed delta from the 18:59 with the 2 builds made on (OndioSP and Gigabeat S)?
22:27:48neldorethok, compiling works now - mkzenboot got the next suprise: Decrypted length of encoded block is unexpectedly large: 0xf38a60de
22:28:00JdGordon|wLlorean: its not hard to imagine that happening in the database
22:28:05fmlLlorean: we're talking about sorting in general, not about sorting within an album or such.
22:28:19LloreanJdGordon|w: Database doesn't use the nat sort anyway. It has its own way to deal with track numbers. So that's irrelevant
22:28:26Lloreanfml: We're talking about _filetree_ sorting.
22:28:28JdGordon|woh.. ok
22:28:40Bagderpixelma: I can't explain it right now anyway
22:29:09Lloreanfml: So, give me a case where someone has labelled songs 2, 03, 4 and expects them to play in that order.
22:29:14fmlLlorean: hrmm, right
22:29:25LloreanI can understand someone labelling songs 8, 9, 10, 11 and expecting them to play in that order
22:29:37LloreanBut if someone types in the numbers 2, 03, 4, I wouldn't think they did that "accidentally" and still want it in that order.
22:29:41jhulstpixelma, Bagder: Not sure if it makes any difference, but the host change also includes a change in IP address, so DNS might be incorrect. Can't think of why that would change anything though...
22:29:51 Quit sarixe ("Leaving")
22:30:49Bagder"100 builds in 423 seconds"
22:31:18fmlLlorean: there _are_ cases where naming schemas get mixed. I for example have some albums with leading zeroes and others (not many) without. Then I make a dir with "my favorite songs" and copy songs from different dirs. This way they do get mixed.
22:31:45rasherLlorean: See!
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22:31:51gevaertsfml: do you care about order in that case?
22:32:17fmlgevaerts: not when listening, but we're talking about sorting! :-)
22:32:37Lloreanfml: Why not just make a "favorites" playlist? And, why does order matter there, since they come from different albums?
22:32:44LloreanDo you number them based on preference so the favorite one plays first?
22:32:50mcuelenaereneldoreth: what version of the OF are you using?
22:32:58gevaertsfml: even then. track number based ordering *only* works if the tracks are in the same context
22:33:08Lloreanrasher: I fail to see how the ordering matters in that case, though.
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22:33:50neldorethmcuelenaere: argh, i am guessing the wrong one, when there is written a explicit 60GB in the executeable, but that was the only one on their website
22:33:58*gevaerts wants IXX to sort after X
22:34:12mcuelenaereneldoreth: there's a problem with the 60GB firmwares and Blowfish
22:34:15fmlLlorean: no, it's only the expected order in the file view that matters. With natural sorting, I'd expect "04" after "3". But I understand that it's a question of the definition of what is natural.
22:34:21mcuelenaere(actually Blowfish and the 60GB key)
22:34:31*mcuelenaere isn't sure whether it's Blowfish actually
22:34:47neldorethmcuelenaere: ah ok, i will check if i can find any other version
22:35:09mcuelenaerethe 30GB version is available on the Creative site, you'll only need to look for 'older models' (below on the support page)
22:35:28gevaertsor is that XIX?
22:35:28*gevaerts is confused
22:37:00LloreanXIX, I believe
22:37:10neldorethmcuelenaere: hm it lists only "Creative ZEN Vision:M 60 GB Firmware 1.21.02e (For Europe only)"
22:37:39Lloreangevaerts: I think it's the Cs that'll start throwing things for a loop
22:38:32mcuelenaereIt's written in small: If your product is not listed above, please click here.
22:38:49gevaertsLlorean: the L I think
22:39:05LloreanOh, forgot about L
22:39:17neldorethmcuelenaere: ah thank you - i went over "Support > Select Your Product > ZEN Vision:M > Download"
22:39:20 Quit jaykay ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.7/2009021910]")
22:39:42gevaertsAnyway roman numerals are sort-safe for a very big majority of albums I think. You can have up to 47 tracks before getting in trouble
22:40:33gevaertseven up to 48
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22:44:00neldorethok lets see what happens :D
22:44:43*mcuelenaere doesn't expect it to do much, except loading the OF..
22:44:52 Quit __lifeless (Remote closed the connection)
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22:45:33neldorethhm he got some problems :|
22:46:26mcuelenaerenaah, looks normal
22:46:40mcuelenaerehowever, the 'Error sending file.' looks not OK
22:46:46mcuelenaerewhat does your device do?
22:46:54 Quit MethoS-- (Connection timed out)
22:47:03neldorethok it said after that it is still updating - now it rebooted
22:47:22neldorethfor a short amount of time i saw about 3 small lines, but i couldnt read anything
22:47:24mcuelenaerethat's normal
22:47:34mcuelenaereyeah, that was the bootloader ;)
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22:48:06mcuelenaerethat's about it you can do currently without taking your HDD out..
22:48:14mcuelenaeres/you/what you/
22:48:39neldorethah nice, so everything went fine
22:49:43fmlWIth the natural sorting, "_abc" goes after "zzz". Is it ok?
22:50:15neldoreththank you all for your patience and support
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23:06:42linuxstbBagder: Do we have many subscribers to the digest version of the Rockbox list?
23:07:07BagderI don't know, I can't list that very easilt
23:07:32Bagderit's a checkbox for each user, I can select users by that condition
23:08:06linuxstbIt's just annoying to see replies to digests, so I had an evil thought about how to solve that problem....
23:08:38BagderI think similarly...
23:09:28linuxstbSurely every modern (and old...) email client can filter a email list into its own folder?
23:11:30 Quit robin0800 ("No Ping reply in 30 seconds.")
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23:12:19Bagderyes, but it's more of a people thing
23:12:39Bagdersome people just get scared by the thought of receiving "many" emails
23:13:45kugelI'm more scared of reading digests which contain some 1x pages or more :/
23:14:05LloreanOr receiving digests with responses to three or four random emails scattered inside them.
23:14:25rasherI don't really think it'd be unreasonable to say "If you plan to respond, don't subscribe to the digest"
23:15:46***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
23:15:59n1scan't the digest mails have some kind of modified header so replies can be auto rejected?
23:16:55Bagderwell, the outgoing headers won't be kept on replies by the average mail client
23:17:02linuxstbrasher: But there will always be people who don't plan to respond, but then want to...
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23:17:40gevaertsI like the "forward" feature on for that
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23:28:11soapLlorean: Is there an additional module for SMF which allows staff to attach "post-it notes" to users?
23:28:11JdGordon|wpixelma: hey, can you give 9795 a try? (just incase you forgot about it :) )
23:30:30Lloreansoap: There's actually a few add-ons for SMF that allow admins to attach notes to a user's profile or similar.
23:30:51LloreanI don't know how many will apply in the state our copy's in (add-ons are basically source-code diffs in that adding more makes it less likely future ones will work unmodified)
23:31:25kugelJdGordon|w: what the exact difference between update() and gui_wps_refresh=
23:31:56kugelI'm calling the latter one in FS #8523 when the screen turns on again
23:32:28JdGordon|wumm... i cant remember... it should be obivous looking at the code though
23:32:43JdGordon|wone actually reloads the wps if its invalid and automatically does both screens
23:33:39 Quit dfkt ("-= SysReset 2.53=- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.")
23:34:02soapahh, I just thought it would be an easy way to hold a long-distance dialogue. There are many people whose messages clutter the garbage bin, and I never know if they have been talked to, or who knows what about who.
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23:35:33Lloreansoap: Notes would be handy. Maybe it can be looked into at some point. Especially if we upgrade and need to reinstall plugins anyway.
23:37:05kugelJdGordon|w: neither do it for both screens, I think
23:37:53kugelhm, seems update() does it by calling gui_wps_display
23:38:41JdGordon|wone has a FOR_NB_SCREENS() call...
23:39:18*kugel spots statusbar drawing in gui_wps_show and isn't sure if it belongs there
23:39:58kugelgui_wps_display, I mean
23:40:03kugelthis is all confusing, imo
23:40:34JdGordon|wwait 2 hours or so and we can talk when i get home?
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23:43:25 Quit nuonguy ("This computer has gone to sleep")
23:44:56cmwslwJust to give you guys an update, the linux4nano project is going well
23:45:08cmwslwwe've identified almost every piece of hardware, and we have been analyzing the firmware
23:45:25cmwslwif we work hard, we might be able to run custom code on it during the summer
23:45:54JdGordon|wwhich summer? :)
23:45:56Bagdercmwslw: so you have been able to run your own code on it?
23:46:01BagderI mean, any code
23:46:24BagderI thought that was the primary problem, not what the hw components are
23:46:34taylor_He means, "by summer"
23:46:49taylor_I think?
23:46:59cmwslwnot yet, but if we can gather enough information it would be a lot easier to crack it
23:46:59*gevaerts still agrees with JdGordon|w :)
23:47:11*bluebrother wonders what summer is :P
23:47:20LloreanWhose summer, too.
23:47:22BagderI think that's a pretty wild guess
23:47:31cmwslwnorthern hemisphere :)
23:47:35*bluebrother agrees with Bagder
23:47:40cmwslwit is just a guess
23:47:43Lloreancmwslw: Do you have any specific interesting weaknesses, or just hopes?
23:47:43JdGordon|wbe nice... its not like its zunelinux....
23:47:51*LambdaCalculus37 agress with Bagder as well
23:48:00taylor_Ok guys, lets get off the "summer" thing and give cmwslw a break, please
23:48:09BagderI'm not trying to be negative, it's just that afaik nobody has a good clue on the encryption or the breakage of it
23:48:11cmwslwwell the nano 4G is surprisingly similar to the iPod touch 2G
23:48:34LambdaCalculus37And what of the nano 3G and nano 2G?
23:48:34cmwslwpretty much the same exact hardware
23:48:50*bluebrother is wondering why he is not surprised
23:48:52Lloreancmwslw: The older iPods and the Sansa were almost the exact same hardware. Didn't mean anything about the original firmware (or how to load our own) was at all similar.
23:49:01Lloreancmwslw: You probably want to investigate this from a software angle.
23:49:09soapMy offer still stands. If you get to the point where a legit. attack against the encryption is identified, write up a proper grant request and (upon verification of feasibility) I'll fund needed hardware/beer.
23:49:25 Quit tchan ("WeeChat 0.2.7-dev")
23:49:47Lloreansoap: Do we know what type of encryption it uses yet?
23:49:54soapI sure don't.
23:50:00Bagdertaylor_: how?
23:50:05Bagderdo "we" know that
23:50:14cmwslwthe aupd partition is RC4
23:50:22taylor_we know by the keys. They are almost similar to iphone
23:50:26cmwslwthe osos is probably AES
23:50:51taylor_cmwslw: aupd has been decrypted in previous firmwares, its osos thats the problem
23:51:14taylor_soap: well donate some money then :) we already _know_ what we have to do
23:51:27Bagdersurely there's some digital sig?
23:51:28cmwslwno we don't
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23:51:35LambdaCalculus37Hold your horses, taylor_.
23:51:36Bagderjust a symetric crypto doesn't make sense to me
23:51:43taylor_we've known for two years
23:51:51cmwslwwell what then?
23:51:59taylor_its just no one has the time/money/knowledge
23:52:14taylor_we need to hook up an FPGA to the ipod instead of memory
23:52:22LloreanAnd wait it out?
23:52:46Bagderfpga instead of memory?
23:53:00LambdaCalculus37Llorean: That'll take a while.
23:53:01taylor_to alter memory contents
23:53:33LloreanLambdaCalculus37: Yeah, just saw FPGA and responded. Didn't notice the other weirdness. i was thinking that article about using arrays of FPGAs to "quickly" break encryption.
23:54:08taylor_Theres no way we can brute force crypto unless we link 10,000 machines over a network. or even just a couple hundred if you had a few days ;)
23:54:37LloreanIf the key's symmetric, don't you already have it somewhere?
23:54:42Bagdertaylor_: so why would the "fpga way" work?
23:54:46LloreanI mean, wouldn't the key necessarily be available to the AUPD partition?
23:54:52Bagderit would still assume encrypted data
23:54:54taylor_to dump the mem
23:55:13Bagderwhat mem?
23:55:17LambdaCalculus37Llorean, Bagder: I was thinking similarly.
23:55:19taylor_FPGA isnt to neccessarily decrypt, its to dump the runtime mem
23:55:36gevaertswhy do you need an FPGA for that?
23:55:45BagderI don't follow this logic either
23:56:00 Quit kushal_12_27_200 ("Leaving. I cannot promise to be back but most likely will.")
23:56:04cmwslwFPGA's are like microprocessors
23:56:17soapagain, legit grant request, passes muster, I'll pay. No on random donations.
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23:56:26taylor_but you can insert them to capture the mem,
23:56:32cmwslwyou program what gates you want
23:56:33taylor_thats what davidc and perror said anayways
23:56:57gevaertswhy don't you just snoop the bus? What's the point of using FPGAs?
23:57:10Bagderyou wouldn't use an fpga for that
23:57:12taylor_well, Im sure there are other ways
23:57:13LambdaCalculus37That's a very messy method of doing this.
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23:57:28LambdaCalculus37gevaerts has the right idea. Snoop the bus during a firmware upgrade.
23:57:40Bagderthe hard part is probably to get to it
23:57:44taylor_Well, Im sure davidc knows what he is talking about, but if there are any other hw ideas, please share
23:57:53cmwslwhow would listening in on the bus help
23:58:02cmwslwthe firmware is decrypted at runtime
23:58:10cmwslwnot during firmware upgrades
23:58:17taylor_either way, we need hw we dont have
23:58:29Bagdercmwslw: then reading ram won't work either
23:58:50cmwslwTaylor, we don't need any hardware until we know exactly what to do
23:58:55taylor_yes it will

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