| 00:00:06 | Llorean | Bagder: I think by "bus" they mean "when being transferred over USB" |
| 00:00:12 | Bagder | oh |
| 00:00:15 | Llorean | I'm assuming you perhaps mean the memory bus? |
| 00:00:19 | Bagder | I do |
| 00:00:25 | gevaerts | I'm talking about the memory bus, yes |
| 00:00:25 | cmwslw | that's impossible |
| 00:00:32 | taylor_ | Reset ipod −−−−-> bootrom decrypts firmware at runtime −−−−> loads into RAM |
| 00:00:35 | gevaerts | then inserting an FPGA also is |
| 00:00:39 | Llorean | Okay, now that everyone has their busses straight, onward. |
| 00:00:58 | Bagder | taylor_: that's not what I'm talking about |
| 00:01:00 | taylor_ | Either way, we need a way to dump runtime mem |
| 00:01:03 | taylor_ | I know |
| 00:01:08 | Bagder | no you don't |
| 00:01:12 | taylor_ | thats what 'I' am talking about |
| 00:01:21 | taylor_ | Im not talking about BUS right now |
| 00:01:24 | Bagder | "loads into ram" is made how? |
| 00:01:33 | gevaerts | How do you think the CPU talks to the RAM? |
| 00:01:36 | soap | stop saying "bus" - say __which_ bus. |
| 00:01:51 | Bagder | it "loads to ram" via a databus |
| 00:01:56 | taylor_ | Ok, everyone step back a sec |
| 00:02:09 | taylor_ | When you're on your ipod, |
| 00:02:11 | * | JdGordon|w jumps on the 545 |
| 00:02:11 | cmwslw | I need to eat dinner |
| 00:02:14 | cmwslw | be back soon |
| 00:02:20 | taylor_ | everything is in memory |
| 00:02:48 | bluebrother | how can I be "on" my ipod? |
| 00:02:51 | Llorean | taylor_: Trust me, we're quite familiar with the concept of both RAM, and firmware being in it. |
| 00:03:09 | Llorean | taylor_: The point is, RAM is communicated with via something also called a "bus" though a different one than the one you seem to be referring to. |
| 00:03:14 | Llorean | Upon which, possibly, you should snoop. |
| 00:03:46 | Bagder | that's how you do those things when you develop those devices |
| 00:03:50 | taylor_ | Okay. Actually both would be useful to snoop |
| 00:03:50 | LambdaCalculus37 | If I were *on* my iPod, I'd crush it. |
| 00:03:53 | JdGordon|w | hang on... we have the datasheets for the ram, so in theory we could use a fpga to replicate the ram and get useful stuff from a run couldnt we? |
| 00:04:03 | taylor_ | yes |
| 00:04:11 | taylor_ | thats what david and TheSeven thought |
| 00:04:22 | Llorean | JdGordon|w: The point is, there's probably simpler ways. |
| 00:04:30 | bluebrother | but why an FPGA? You can simply capture the address and data lines |
| 00:04:38 | bluebrother | same result, less hardware needed. |
| 00:04:40 | taylor_ | BUS, RAM, FPGA, whatver. Any memory *dump* will be useful |
| 00:04:53 | Bagder | that's my point too, bluebrother |
| 00:05:06 | bluebrother | boot the ipod, disconnect data and address lines, read RAM from external uC |
| 00:05:21 | taylor_ | ok |
| 00:05:24 | bluebrother | Bagder: :) |
| 00:05:32 | taylor_ | do we have any of the needed hw for that? |
| 00:06:02 | soap | do you have the needed soldering skills? |
| 00:06:27 | bluebrother | depending on that RAM: soldering iron, wrap wire, uC that has enough pins to talk to the RAM chip |
| 00:06:58 | gevaerts | this is likely to be *small* |
| 00:06:58 | Bagder | a logic analyzer suitable for the bus speed |
| 00:07:10 | taylor_ | and, |
| 00:07:11 | Bagder | very very small |
| 00:07:14 | bluebrother | that'd a good thing too |
| 00:07:18 | rasher | Isn't it also encased in epoxy, or was that just a rumour? |
| 00:07:38 | taylor_ | you might have to underclock the CPU to rid of any interference ? |
| 00:07:41 | bluebrother | what package does the RAM chip come in? Hopefully not some BGA |
| 00:07:52 | Bagder | aren't they all? ;-) |
| 00:07:57 | bluebrother | :( |
| 00:07:59 | JdGordon|w | so what we really need is to get the guys at bletchly park back together and get them working on it? |
| 00:08:08 | Bagder | but there are guys who work on detaching bgas... |
| 00:08:23 | gevaerts | JdGordon|w: no. They were good at *big* wires |
| 00:08:45 | taylor_ | how have you guys hacked all the other mp3 players? Im sure at least one was harder than just REing the firmware |
| 00:09:09 | Bagder | taylor_: most of them, yes |
| 00:09:15 | JdGordon|w | the subset of us which actually hacked/RE'd the hardware is pretty damn small |
| 00:10:25 | taylor_ | do we have any contractors who could do this ? :) |
| 00:11:46 | krazykit | with enough money, i'm sure you can hire someone. |
| 00:13:14 | taylor_ | soap? haha |
| 00:14:42 | | Quit kugel (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 00:14:43 | Llorean | taylor_: typically Rockbox targets have been less "protected" than the later iPods, or significant vulnerabilities have been found that let us bypass any protection they do have. |
| 00:15:07 | LambdaCalculus37 | And not every target is built the same. |
| 00:18:05 | taylor_ | it would be a major breakthorugh to RE one of these guys |
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| 00:19:05 | cmwslw | I wan't to get all the hardware straight, and then I will look at the software aspect |
| 00:19:41 | rasher | And a jailbroken iphone/ipod touch is still locked enough that it's useless in this aspect? |
| 00:20:03 | cmwslw | knowing the hardware can give us clues as to what changes apple has made and how they implemented the encryption system |
| 00:20:12 | * | JdGordon|w doesnt see the point wasing time on the hardware unless you know you can run code |
| 00:21:03 | cmwslw | well not everything is visible in software, for example the utility flash and the bootrom |
| 00:21:22 | taylor_ | JdGordon|w: Yes, but you mgiht need to hack the hw inorder to run code |
| 00:22:01 | cmwslw | well a hardware hack seems somewhat barbaric |
| 00:22:15 | soap | that is a "might", whereas a study of the firmware is a "for sure". |
| 00:22:17 | JdGordon|w | thats why its "hard"? |
| 00:22:23 | Llorean | cmwslw: What clues about the encryption do you expect to get from the hardware? |
| 00:22:23 | cmwslw | If we can find out where the key is stored and how the firmware is decrypted |
| 00:23:06 | taylor_ | well the key is most likely stored in the HW |
| 00:23:12 | cmwslw | well, by finding out the exact processor that is used, we found that the new samsung processors have 50kB of embedded bootrom |
| 00:23:13 | Llorean | taylor_: Everything is stored in the HW... |
| 00:23:52 | JdGordon|w | cmwslw: yeah, but thats 50kB of gobbledeegook... |
| 00:24:04 | taylor_ | how do you knoiw? |
| 00:24:14 | cmwslw | are you saying it's encrypted? |
| 00:24:27 | taylor_ | I think hes saying its useless |
| 00:24:30 | JdGordon|w | a the very least its arm assembly |
| 00:24:52 | Llorean | And if you can't read it, it's useless. If you can read it, dumb it and you're back to "software work" |
| 00:24:56 | JdGordon|w | im not saying its useless... just that the key which might be what 8 bytes? is hidden there and t could be anywhere |
| 00:24:58 | Llorean | Most of the hardware is irrelevant. |
| 00:25:12 | Llorean | *dump, not dumb |
| 00:25:22 | cmwslw | what else would it be than arm assembly |
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| 00:25:47 | JdGordon|w | at *some* point it will be data instead of code... |
| 00:25:54 | bluebrother | random data to confuse hackers? |
| 00:26:03 | JdGordon|w | i dont know assembly, but how easy is it to figure out where the data starts? |
| 00:26:11 | taylor_ | would they go all out like that? |
| 00:26:16 | bluebrother | data is bytes. Code is bytes. |
| 00:26:26 | cmwslw | well the processor has to start executing valid code somewhere, and the bootrom is the only place left |
| 00:26:34 | taylor_ | Apple has had more mistakes in the past, than it seems they are tricking |
| 00:26:51 | taylor_ | we've already dumped one chip |
| 00:26:54 | Llorean | It doesn't even have to necessarily be contiguous. The key could be scrambled. It could even be part of the "encrypted" image, just bytes inserted at certain known points. |
| 00:26:58 | taylor_ | but thats the utility flash |
| 00:27:20 | | Join fyrestorm [0] (n=fyre@cpe-68-173-234-168.nyc.res.rr.com) |
| 00:27:21 | bluebrother | and what's this mystical utility flash thingy? |
| 00:27:34 | taylor_ | it holds DIsk mode, diagnostics, etc |
| 00:27:39 | cmwslw | well we know that the first byte of the bootrom can't be encrypted |
| 00:27:42 | taylor_ | but thats also encrypted |
| 00:27:54 | taylor_ | it could be |
| 00:28:02 | bluebrother | cmwslw: why has it to be the first byte? |
| 00:28:06 | taylor_ | actually, we dont know anything until we look :) |
| 00:28:17 | taylor_ | and we might not need to look there |
| 00:28:17 | cmwslw | because the processor has to start executing somewhere |
| 00:28:35 | taylor_ | if Llorean is right, it could be somewhere in the image itself |
| 00:28:36 | bluebrother | and you know it's starting at the first byte of that memory? |
| 00:28:59 | taylor_ | but, if we go off of iphone knowledge, that would be innacuarate |
| 00:29:09 | taylor_ | *inaccurate |
| 00:29:10 | JdGordon|w | if you can dump the bootrom it might be "easy" to figure out whats happening... it might not be |
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| 00:29:29 | cmwslw | most likely, but even if it starts executing somewhere else in the bootrom, there still has to be valid ARM somewhere |
| 00:29:38 | | Nick pixelma_ is now known as pixelma (n=pixelma@rockbox/staff/pixelma) |
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| 00:29:42 | Llorean | Does AUPD get run no matter what, or is it AUPD *or* OSOS? |
| 00:29:51 | JdGordon|w | bluebrother: assuming the hardware doesnt do the decrytion then *some* known locatio has to be unencrypted arm assembly or the thing couldnt boot |
| 00:29:54 | JdGordon|w | usually 0x0 |
| 00:29:58 | taylor_ | osos is the "operating system" |
| 00:30:02 | taylor_ | AUPT is the updater |
| 00:30:07 | taylor_ | I mean AUPD |
| 00:30:14 | bluebrother | JdGordon|w: sure, but "usually" doesn't mean it is 0x0 ;-) |
| 00:30:21 | Llorean | taylor_: I thought AUPD might include bootloader. |
| 00:31:19 | cmwslw | dumping the bootrom would be next to impossible without the datasheets |
| 00:31:29 | taylor_ | it could |
| 00:31:41 | Llorean | cmwslw: So if that's where the key is, do you have another plan? |
| 00:31:52 | cmwslw | and what guarantees that samsung even provides a way to read the bootrom |
| 00:32:00 | | Join ender1 [0] (i=krneki@foo.eternallybored.org) |
| 00:32:01 | | Part toffe82_ |
| 00:32:23 | bluebrother | sounds to me similar to the boot0 thing of the wii |
| 00:32:59 | JdGordon|w | isnt that SOP? have some really simple logic to boot the proper loader then the actual code? |
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| 00:33:18 | bluebrother | SOP? |
| 00:33:29 | JdGordon|w | standard operating procedure |
| 00:33:48 | bluebrother | ah. I don't think so. |
| 00:34:36 | bluebrother | well, in some setups it might be. Possibly true for game consoles, ipods and the like :) |
| 00:35:29 | taylor_ | I'll be back in a few |
| 00:35:32 | JdGordon|w | and computers |
| 00:35:33 | * | kugel thinks about committing FS #8523 within the next few days |
| 00:35:48 | JdGordon|w | as long as you're only thinking about it |
| 00:36:19 | | Quit jhMikeS (Nick collision from services.) |
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| 00:36:31 | kugel | huh? |
| 00:36:46 | JdGordon|w | dw |
| 00:36:57 | rasher | JdGordon|w: Please use standard English words |
| 00:37:27 | * | bluebrother wonders if JdGordon|w is a vim user :) |
| 00:37:35 | JdGordon|w | :q! |
| 00:37:41 | n1s | talking about that bootrom thing, wouldn't the cpu *need* to be able to read it to be able to run code from it or am i missing something? |
| 00:37:53 | taylor_ | Im talking to some guys on #ipodlinux right now. They are saying if someone could donate a nano or two(encrypted of course) they have the knowledge where they could "Almost certainly" get code running. Anyone for donations? ;) |
| 00:37:55 | * | bluebrother considers :wq in the next couple of minutes |
| 00:38:39 | | Quit Seed ("cu, Andre") |
| 00:38:43 | JdGordon|w | n1s: yeah, so the logic is, if you can read the assembly from booting, you should be able to "boot" it on paper and figure out exactly what its doing |
| 00:39:23 | n1s | JdGordon: sounds sensible, and brings us back to square 1: we need to run custom code :) |
| 00:39:29 | | Join Reptile211 [0] (n=chatzill@host-216-66-248-9.static.linkline.com) |
| 00:39:56 | Llorean | n1s: Or dump the bootrom's contents from an external means. |
| 00:40:15 | gevaerts | good luck with that |
| 00:40:16 | n1s | and pray for an opportunity to pull something like that hack where they dumped a camera firmware through a blinking led |
| 00:40:22 | Llorean | Yes. |
| 00:40:42 | rasher | n1s: or the ipod piezo hack |
| 00:40:54 | n1s | rasher: i like the led more :) |
| 00:41:06 | JdGordon|w | although that still doesnt help you getting your code back on the thing does it? |
| 00:41:36 | | Quit JdGordon|w ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client") |
| 00:42:04 | Llorean | Yeah, if it's an asymmetric key, we're still stuck unless there's a vulnerability. |
| 00:42:06 | n1s | the theory is that if we have the code it runs we _should_ be able to find a flaw that can be exploited |
| 00:42:39 | | Quit LambdaCalculus37 ("mibbit.com: Falafel time!") |
| 00:43:02 | | Quit CaptainKewl (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 00:44:12 | rasher | bluebrother: How did rbutil communicate with the theme site? |
| 00:44:28 | bluebrother | rasher: via the rbutilqt.php script |
| 00:44:38 | | Part Aurix_Lexico |
| 00:45:02 | bluebrother | it returns an ini-style file that holds a key for each theme, name and download links. |
| 00:45:28 | cmwslw | well we have the datasheet for the RAM chips, but not the processors |
| 00:45:28 | bluebrother | the script requests a specific resolution −− i.e. something like rbutilqt.php?res=160x128x2 |
| 00:45:39 | n1s | I've read a bit about the various iphone/ipod touch hacks and the SoC's they use have hardware AES encryption. That suggests AES is used in the ipods too, and afaik AES is a symmetric crypto BUT there may also be signing :/ |
| 00:46:09 | cmwslw | disconnecting the databus and then reading would be feasible as long as the databus was on the outside of the pcb |
| 00:46:17 | | Quit ender` (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 00:46:28 | rasher | bluebrother: Alright |
| 00:46:39 | bluebrother | there's also an error section that can be used for displaying issues. That's used currently by the theme site :) |
| 00:46:42 | n1s | cmwslw: is the ram built into the SoC? |
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| 00:47:44 | rasher | bluebrother: anything you want to change about that? |
| 00:47:49 | cmwslw | n1s: only in the 4G nano |
| 00:48:05 | cmwslw | the 2 and 3G nanos have an external RAM chip |
| 00:48:27 | cmwslw | so using that method is out of the question for the 4G |
| 00:48:34 | n1s | ok, so theoretically that approach could work on the 2g and 3g |
| 00:48:50 | bluebrother | keys are size, descriptionfile, image, (author, version −− both unused by the old script), about, name |
| 00:49:12 | cmwslw | as long as the traces connecting the processor and the RAM were on the outside of the PCB |
| 00:49:18 | cmwslw | not in one of the inner layers |
| 00:49:24 | bluebrother | unless I've missed something from the sources. I have a rather old version of the original script somewhere, I could search for it tomorrow |
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| 00:50:08 | rasher | bluebrother: Looking at svn, that looks accurate. |
| 00:50:24 | bluebrother | rasher: in general, no. It worked fine :) Using the author and version fields might be a good idea. Especially version −− if there is no version just use the timestamp of the theme upload |
| 00:50:31 | cmwslw | the 3G looks like all the traces are exposed, but the soldering that would be required is insanity |
| 00:50:53 | n1s | cmwslw: so do you have a planned approach for getting code running on them, you seemed quite confident and the summer is only a couple of months away ;) |
| 00:51:24 | rasher | bluebrother: Alright |
| 00:52:08 | cmwslw | no, but during the next 5 or 6 months, we can probably find a weakness and exploit it if we work hard |
| 00:52:27 | bluebrother | if you want to expose further details about themes feel free to add them. We can support them later in rbutil, and having them around doesn't hurt :) |
| 00:52:53 | bluebrother | cu tomorrow −− gtg now |
| 00:52:56 | | Quit bluebrother (":wq") |
| 00:53:49 | n1s | cmwslw: so, there is a bunch of clueful hackers working on this over at linux4nano? |
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| 00:54:43 | cmwslw | not really; interest has sort of died down |
| 00:55:21 | cmwslw | but what if we were to hook up a fast, multiple channel oscilloscope to the data bus |
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| 03:22:02 | cmwslw | Well anyways, everyone be checking the linux4nano wiki if you are interested in the nano's hardware |
| 03:22:34 | cmwslw | I will probably be able to upload the annotations I've been working on tommorow |
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| 04:22:02 | _MMA_ | Is a 75px .bmp still the default for cover support? I saw .bmp will be resized if there bit I want to support the largest size possible. 100x maybe? |
| 04:22:36 | site_name | i have 3rd gen can i run rockbox on it ? |
| 04:23:17 | scorche|sh | rockbox runs of 3rd gen ipods fine....3rd gen nanos are something entirely different though |
| 04:23:30 | _MMA_ | site_name: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/ReleaseNotes31#Supported_players |
| 04:23:42 | site_name | thx |
| 04:24:06 | scorche|sh | _MMA_: you dont need to link that...it says right on the front page |
| 04:24:12 | site_name | how do u mean entirely different ? |
| 04:25:00 | scorche|sh | the third gen ipod was released in 2003... |
| 04:25:13 | site_name | and i was wondering is it hard to install ? |
| 04:25:32 | scorche|sh | no it isnt...but it will be for your 3rd gen nano |
| 04:25:48 | site_name | why so ? |
| 04:26:09 | scorche|sh | have you looked at the front page? |
| 04:26:25 | site_name | a little |
| 04:27:25 | site_name | im totally new to this while thing |
| 04:27:36 | Unhelpful | _MMA_: there is no "default" for album art, only whatever size your WPS theme uses |
| 04:27:47 | site_name | i was totally unaware of the whole ipod hax bit |
| 04:28:12 | _MMA_ | Unhelpful: Gotcha. |
| 04:28:45 | _MMA_ | Unhelpful: I pretty much got that idea but was hoping someone knew a common size. |
| 04:29:42 | Unhelpful | you can just use the largest size that will fit on your screen. i've never really been able to pick out scaling artifacts in the downscaler on the display of any targets i have. the upscaler is another matter, you can't create data from nothing, and it shows. |
| 04:30:16 | _MMA_ | Unhelpful: Makes sense. Thanx. |
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| 04:40:09 | site_name | mine is a 4th gen ipod grey scale |
| 04:40:21 | site_name | says it wont run on this ipod :( |
| 04:41:21 | site_name | if it does not install can i just plug my ipod into itunes and repair it ? |
| 04:41:35 | site_name | if i have a problem that is |
| 04:41:43 | scorche | where does it say it wont run on that? |
| 04:42:03 | site_name | Rockbox is an open source firmware for mp3 players, written from scratch. It runs on a wide range of players: |
| 04:42:03 | site_name | * Apple: 1st through 5.5th generation iPod, iPod Mini and 1st generation iPod Nano |
| 04:42:03 | site_name | (not the Shuffle, 2nd/3rd/4th gen Nano, Classic or Touch) |
| 04:42:25 | scorche | yeah? |
| 04:42:37 | scorche | you said you ahve a 4th gen ipod...not a 4th gen nano... |
| 04:42:48 | site_name | ipod nano yes |
| 04:42:56 | Llorean | You said ipod gray scale. |
| 04:42:59 | Llorean | Nanos where always color |
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| 04:43:02 | scorche | nano isnt gray-scale |
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| 04:43:35 | site_name | when i select my ipod in rockbox thats what it is called |
| 04:43:46 | site_name | in the utility |
| 04:43:48 | scorche | ...huh? |
| 04:44:08 | site_name | ohh nm |
| 04:44:11 | site_name | my bad |
| 04:44:37 | site_name | so ir will not run on my nano then right |
| 04:44:49 | Llorean | No, it only runs on the ones listed at the site |
| 04:45:02 | site_name | damn |
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| 04:45:26 | site_name | guess ill have to repair my 20gig ipod |
| 04:45:37 | site_name | i htink it needs a new hdd ribbon |
| 04:45:50 | site_name | eighter that or the mobo is fuxored |
| 04:46:03 | site_name | sad ipod face on it |
| 04:46:11 | site_name | and i just bought a new hdd for it |
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| 06:10:13 | jeffdameth1 | hello. is the restriction that rockbox doesnt work on v2 models only for e200 (i.e. not e280 etc). as the wiki is a bit unclear which models are supported exactly. if i hadnt looked in the battery lifetime page i wouldnt have known that the e2x0 models are also supported |
| 06:11:32 | Unhelpful | jeffdameth1: no e2x0v2 models are supported at present. |
| 06:11:58 | Llorean | jeffdameth1: "e200" is the name of the entire line. It means e250, e260, e270, e280 |
| 06:12:11 | Llorean | Even Sandisk calls it "the e200 series" |
| 06:12:48 | jeffdameth1 | ok, thanks. i see. still as there is one model with exactly that name one could think that not the family is meant |
| 06:12:58 | Llorean | There is no model with the name "e200" |
| 06:13:47 | jeffdameth1 | heh and i was searchin for it... http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330315299648 |
| 06:14:00 | Llorean | Ebay listers can type in whatever they want |
| 06:14:08 | Llorean | Go and check the Sandisk product pages and the archive.org histories of them. |
| 06:14:22 | Llorean | There is no e200 product in terms of Sandisk's naming. Other people will call them whatever they feel like it. |
| 06:14:39 | jeffdameth1 | sure |
| 06:14:47 | Llorean | So then what was the point of the ebay link? |
| 06:16:01 | jeffdameth1 | just to show that the normal joe who want to get a device that supports rockbox could think that he has to seach for e200 and find sth |
| 06:16:18 | Llorean | We can't help that people are too lazy to actually know what they own. |
| 06:17:06 | Llorean | We also can't name it according to every possible way people could misname it on ebay |
| 06:17:13 | Llorean | It's called the "e200 series" on our site, which should be clear enough. |
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| 06:20:14 | jeffdameth1 | hm nvm. was just a suggestion. i was looking for a device that is supported by rockbox and thought it might be misleading for others too |
| 06:20:38 | Llorean | Please, don't use things like "nvm" and "sth" in here. |
| 06:20:42 | Llorean | That's mentioned in the channel guidelines. |
| 06:21:06 | Llorean | I don't see what your suggestion is. We should replace "e200 series" with what exactly to be more clear? |
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| 06:22:36 | jeffdameth1 | where can i find the term 'series' ? |
| 06:22:43 | Llorean | On the front page. |
| 06:22:52 | Llorean | " Sansa c200, e200 and e200R series " |
| 06:23:10 | Llorean | Considering there's no c200, e200, or e200R individual models, I think it's fairly clear. |
| 06:23:20 | jeffdameth1 | ok i was looking in the wiki 'functional ports' |
| 06:23:30 | jeffdameth1 | as i dont want to downlaod a firmware yet |
| 06:23:35 | Llorean | The wiki is user-written documentation |
| 06:23:37 | Llorean | Feel free to correct it. |
| 06:23:55 | Llorean | But next time, it's helpful to check the front page since we put the most important information there, being the page we expect everyone will go through. |
| 06:24:09 | jeffdameth1 | ok alright |
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| 09:29:09 | Llorean | What license is convbdf under? |
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| 09:33:55 | B4gder | I'd say GPL has been assumed on by behalf at least |
| 09:34:26 | Zagor | as I remember he wrote it for rockbox so I'd assume gpl. |
| 09:35:19 | B4gder | yes he did |
| 09:35:30 | Llorean | Okay |
| 09:35:38 | Llorean | I just wasn't sure if it was "ours" or "something we got from somewhere" |
| 09:35:49 | Llorean | I assume if it's ours it falls under the project license unless specifically noted otherwise? |
| 09:36:15 | B4gder | yeah, although adding the standard header to the source code would be a good idea |
| 09:36:22 | Zagor | I agree |
| 09:37:24 | Llorean | I was really just looking to see if I could say "but you have to" to the "I've decided not to post it" source code on the forum. |
| 09:38:05 | Llorean | Though it might be good enough to quickly see which of our files outside of /codecs and /plugins don't have the header. |
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| 12:00 |
| 12:01:18 | midgey | rasher: seems the latest patch of the itunes work still annoys OS X |
| 12:01:42 | midgey | finder is stuck trying to identify it |
| 12:01:45 | rasher | Blast |
| 12:02:12 | midgey | it's now opening itunes |
| 12:02:26 | midgey | well attempting to at least |
| 12:02:54 | * | rasher thinks gevaerts needs to get an iTunes install at home |
| 12:03:15 | midgey | heh, looks like it's caused some massive kernel issues |
| 12:03:23 | midgey | everything is acting up |
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| 12:04:14 | rasher | iTunes did act a bit weird a few times, but I didn't know if that was just normal iTunes behaviour :) |
| 12:04:51 | midgey | with itunes open, the whole thing seizes up a bit less |
| 12:05:11 | midgey | but a hard remove is needed to get the computer responsive again |
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| 12:05:33 | midgey | i get the "An iPod has been detected..." error |
| 12:05:45 | midgey | i'll have to do some logfs |
| 12:06:31 | midgey | last time i'm pretty sure the itune scsi inquiries never happened during the time it was plugged in |
| 12:07:01 | midgey | i'll try leaving it plugged in for 10 min and seeing if itunes every recovers |
| 12:07:26 | rasher | Yeah, I was going to ask what happened if you just wait it out |
| 12:09:23 | midgey | well i can tell you this, applications slowly start failing and seizing up |
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| 12:15:57 | midgey | ok, i gave up |
| 12:16:09 | midgey | nothing happened differently |
| 12:16:16 | midgey | all applications slowly died |
| 12:17:04 | midgey | quite a robust way of handling usb devices.... |
| 12:25:18 | rasher | That sounds awful |
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| 13:00 |
| 13:01:11 | salty-horse | Llorean, hi. I checked official nightly builds like you suggested, and the text editor still doesn't parse unix-style newlines correctly. should I file a bug? |
| 13:15:10 | salty-horse | is there some up-to-date documentation (wiki, mailing list, bug) about the current state of usb handling on the sansa e200? I notice it doesn't restart the device when I plug a usb. is it charging effectively? trying to mount? |
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| 13:16:08 | n1s | salty-horse: rockbox's native usb mode is enabled in current builds so it shouls connect to your computer without a reboot |
| 13:16:45 | salty-horse | n1s, thanks. how about recharging? is it as efficient as the original firmware? |
| 13:17:17 | n1s | salty-horse: it should work but i don't know how it compares to the OF |
| 13:17:30 | salty-horse | (I asked about the connection because I have some problems with mounting on ubuntu.. hard to know what behavior to expect :) |
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| 13:17:45 | salty-horse | n1s, ok |
| 13:17:47 | salty-horse | thanks |
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| 14:24:23 | gevaerts | robin0800_: can you clarify your comment to FS #9955 a bit? I have no idea what it means... |
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| 14:58:03 | uncon | can someone suggest hardware to purchase (for a relatively low price) that will run Rockbox well? |
| 14:59:27 | LambdaCalculus37 | http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/BuyersGuide |
| 14:59:56 | LambdaCalculus37 | uncon: People's opinions vary, so you have to shop around and decide exactly what it is you're looking for, and how much you're willing to spend. |
| 15:00 |
| 15:01:09 | LambdaCalculus37 | It also depends on what's available in your location in the world. |
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| 15:05:12 | uncon | LambdaCalculus37: thanks for the link, that would help a lot |
| 15:05:30 | uncon | i was looking for something like that but found the IRC link first (: |
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| 15:06:44 | LambdaCalculus37 | uncon: With that being said, I personally prefer my Gigabeast, Sansa e280, and iriver H340 as my "main" players. |
| 15:07:09 | uncon | geez |
| 15:07:10 | LambdaCalculus37 | But it's up to you to find out what "works" for you. |
| 15:08:01 | uncon | all i want is a decent player that will hold 40+ GB and not require crappy software (iTunes)... |
| 15:08:06 | LambdaCalculus37 | uncon: And don't be surprised... a lot of developers here have multiple targets. Makes testing and coding easier. :) |
| 15:08:18 | uncon | i can imagine |
| 15:09:58 | LambdaCalculus37 | uncon: Then if you can find something like a Gigabeat F60, that may fit the bill. |
| 15:10:54 | LambdaCalculus37 | An iriver H340 is also a nice player as well. It also gives you FM radio and recording. |
| 15:11:31 | uncon | i'll never use FM or recording... |
| 15:11:41 | uncon | but, they won't hurt me |
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| 15:12:33 | uncon | looks like i might get a little better batt life out of the iriver |
| 15:12:34 | LambdaCalculus37 | The Gigabeat F lacks FM radio and recording... just a straight-up music/video player. |
| 15:13:18 | BigBambi_ | uncon: relativly low price doesn't include the irivers (h100/h300) |
| 15:13:47 | LambdaCalculus37 | uncon: BigBambi_'s right. Expect to pay a pretty penny for one on eBay. |
| 15:14:00 | BigBambi_ | uncon: They are highly sought after owing to their great (esp h100) recording capabilities |
| 15:14:21 | uncon | ah... |
| 15:14:48 | uncon | and, it's 40GB instead of 60 |
| 15:15:01 | LambdaCalculus37 | uncon: But the hard drive is easily swappable. |
| 15:15:09 | uncon | 2.5"? |
| 15:15:13 | BigBambi_ | LambdaCalculus37: Which adds to the price |
| 15:15:14 | uncon | or 1? |
| 15:15:14 | LambdaCalculus37 | 1.8". |
| 15:15:18 | uncon | *nod* |
| 15:15:21 | BigBambi_ | uncon: 1.8" |
| 15:15:31 | LambdaCalculus37 | uncon: 1" would be a Microdrive. |
| 15:16:06 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 15:16:18 | LambdaCalculus37 | And in terms of Rockbox targets, only the Archos devices used 2.5" drives. |
| 15:16:22 | BigBambi_ | uncon: If you want 60GB natively then you want a gigabeat F60, X60 (much rarer), or S60 (not yet supported but close, battery life is poor at the moment) or an ipod 5.5G 80 GB (not classic) |
| 15:16:53 | uncon | f60 doesn't seem to be prolific |
| 15:17:03 | LambdaCalculus37 | BigBambi_: The X60 is damn near impossible to get ahold of unless you live in Asia or Oz, or are toffe82. ;) |
| 15:17:14 | BigBambi_ | uncon: Not so much as the F40, no |
| 15:17:18 | BigBambi_ | LambdaCalculus37: indeed |
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| 15:18:09 | uncon | s60 is easy to get (: |
| 15:18:21 | uncon | man, $41 |
| 15:19:19 | BigBambi_ | uncon: I like the S60 (it is the one I use day-to-day), and it is not quite but nearly supported. The main draw back is the battery life (around 6 hours IIRC). This may well improve, but it is really impossible to ay until it actually does |
| 15:19:32 | BigBambi_ | *say |
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| 15:19:46 | uncon | what's the stock battery life? |
| 15:19:58 | BigBambi_ | Not much more |
| 15:20:10 | LambdaCalculus37 | BigBambi_: IIRC about 10 hours. |
| 15:20:13 | BigBambi_ | But it runs Windows mobile stock and is MTP only |
| 15:20:26 | BigBambi_ | LambdaCalculus37: That's what they claim.... :) |
| 15:21:46 | LambdaCalculus37 | BigBambi_: I think the last couple of hurdles to overcome on the beast port are the battery life, writing beastpatcher, and (not sure on this one) getting a single-boot bootloader to work. |
| 15:21:58 | LambdaCalculus37 | Can anyone confirm this? |
| 15:22:15 | BigBambi_ | LambdaCalculus37: Single boot to work reliably - it works fine and always has done for me |
| 15:22:30 | BigBambi_ | Battery life doesn't affect supported status anyway |
| 15:22:37 | LambdaCalculus37 | True. |
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| 15:22:55 | LambdaCalculus37 | Some of the other targets had lousy battery life and are still considered "supported". |
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| 15:23:28 | wodz | Hello, can I ask for Wiki write permission? My account is MarcinBukat. I would like to add some information for MPIO HD200 player page. |
| 15:24:02 | LambdaCalculus37 | wodz: Hang tight. |
| 15:24:06 | * | LambdaCalculus37 goes to add |
| 15:25:18 | LambdaCalculus37 | wodz: All done. Promise not to spam, now! :) |
| 15:25:28 | wodz | I promis |
| 15:25:30 | uncon | so, if i can get a gigabeat f40, the drive is easily replacable and the remaining hardware is the same? |
| 15:26:01 | LambdaCalculus37 | uncon: Yep. |
| 15:26:19 | BigBambi | uncon: Yeah, but due to the interface it uses you will only get up to 60 or 80 GB (and the 80 is very rare and expensive) |
| 15:26:36 | uncon | standard 1.8"? |
| 15:26:47 | LambdaCalculus37 | uncon: Standard 50-pin connector. |
| 15:28:51 | BigBambi | uncon: there is a wiki page called HarddriveReplacement or something similar |
| 15:28:54 | gevaerts | uncon: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/HardDriveReplacement has detailed info |
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| 15:33:14 | uncon | thanks guys, for your help |
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| 15:57:52 | * | kugel grumbles at FS #10031 |
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| 16:28:57 | jaykay | how is the battery % read? or is it more "reported"? |
| 16:29:33 | jaykay | because i noticed its updated in the wps every ~0,5 sec |
| 16:30:11 | jaykay | changing this to ~30sec would maybe free some cpu cycles or do some other good things :) |
| 16:30:47 | rasher | I'd be quite surprised if that takes any significant amount of resources |
| 16:31:30 | jaykay | it wouldnt need to be significant |
| 16:31:57 | jaykay | anyway, i'm not going to prepare a patch or ask for this change, i was just curious |
| 16:33:18 | rasher | Turning off accuracy would need to provide some kind of benefit |
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| 16:34:40 | jaykay | i think it would be more accurate - when changing from one % to another it often switches back and forth |
| 16:34:51 | jaykay | that would be "solved" |
| 16:35:42 | NJoin | Bagder [241] (n=daniel@rockbox/developer/bagder) |
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| 16:56:48 | LambdaCalculus37 | I was wondering about something... the new default iconset is from the Tango icon library, so why don't we use those new icons to depict file format icons in the manual? |
| 17:00 |
| 17:01:33 | rasher | That's a good question indeed. |
| 17:08:01 | kugel | rasher, Llorean: fixing FS #10031 means using tolower instead of toupper (rather simple fix), but that also means going away a bit from the original algorithm |
| 17:09:25 | gevaerts | Why does the original algorithm even matter? |
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| 17:10:19 | LambdaCalculus37 | rasher: Indeed. I was wondering why we're still using the old charcell-like icons. |
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| 17:16:09 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
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| 18:05:11 | obo | Bagder: the last entry (Onda VX767) in the binsize delta chart is missing its title="...", so no hover info |
| 18:07:07 | obo | and the e200v2 seems to be in the wrong place? |
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| 18:38:59 | scorche|sh | Bagder: around? |
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| 18:44:32 | * | scorche|sh notes that GSoC org acceptance emails are going out early this year...now |
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| 18:46:10 | * | linuxstb sees http://code.google.com/soc/2009/ doesn't exist yet... |
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| 18:57:55 | mikeypizano | what is going on with the v2 sansas? |
| 18:58:21 | mikeypizano | is it being worked on or abadoned? |
| 18:58:41 | | Quit HellDragon (Client Quit) |
| 19:00 |
| 19:00:16 | evilnick | mikeypizano: The Rockbox forum thread will have the most up-to-date info |
| 19:00:38 | mikeypizano | ok, any idea if you guys will start doing sony players |
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| 19:00:51 | LambdaCalculus37 | When someone starts working on them. |
| 19:01:02 | LambdaCalculus37 | We don't schedule anything. |
| 19:01:12 | mikeypizano | oh ok |
| 19:01:25 | | Quit mikeypizano (Client Quit) |
| 19:02:02 | scorche|sh | Bagder: ping |
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| 19:10:31 | scorche|sh | Rockbox will be participating in GSoC again this year =) |
| 19:10:55 | kugel | \o/ |
| 19:11:39 | gevaerts | Great! |
| 19:12:25 | scorche|sh | interested rockbox devs, etc can feel free to join #rockbox-gsoc |
| 19:13:22 | LambdaCalculus37 | Nice! |
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| 19:15:54 | | Nick JdGordon| is now known as JdGordon|w (i=836b0055@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2bf217a302ff4ccd) |
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| 19:17:49 | moos | "Jamais deux sans trois" like we say in french. Very nice! |
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| 19:18:07 | moos | "Things always happen in threes" doesn't sound very nice ;) |
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| 19:23:48 | * | scorche|sh summons Bagder - there is work to be done! |
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| 19:25:26 | Llorean | kugel: I'm not sure what the problem is with _s sorting after text instead of before it? |
| 19:25:42 | Llorean | It's a different algorithm, and things can be in different places. If the PC-version sorts it that way too, what's the problem? |
| 19:26:43 | BigBambi | scorche|sh: good news |
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| 19:40:12 | scorche|sh | Bagder: time to update news on front page? |
| 19:40:30 | Bagder | yes indeed, we should also mail the lists |
| 19:40:44 | scorche|sh | yup |
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| 19:50:57 | kugel | Llorean: after. with ascii-sorting it's before |
| 19:51:17 | Llorean | kugel: I know. What's wrong with that? |
| 19:51:23 | Llorean | Plenty of other things are in different places from ascii sorting too. |
| 19:52:00 | kugel | it's advertised for numbers, having _* differently sorted is unexpected. the fix is trivial |
| 19:54:08 | Llorean | Well, I tend to think either we're preserving the original algorithm, or we should try to fix _all_ the problems. |
| 19:55:52 | kugel | the algorithm isn't really touched (the to_int() touched it way more). it's changing toupper to tolower. I'd rather be consistent within rockbox for non-numbers if the fix is this easy. |
| 19:56:56 | kugel | And I tend to say that the original algorithm needs to be fixed in this case, as from what I've seen most standard-implementations of any str[..]cmp function uses tolower |
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| 19:57:50 | Llorean | If you're changing our sort results to not match theirs, I can't really see how you say "the algorithm isn't touched" |
| 19:58:10 | Llorean | I'm just saying we should either match their results, or admit that we want to change things and work on fixing more things. |
| 19:58:28 | Llorean | We can't use "well that's the way they do it" as an excuse if we're going to go changing things too. |
| 19:59:06 | kugel | true |
| 20:00 |
| 20:01:28 | | Quit moos ("Rockbox rules the DAP world") |
| 20:01:54 | kugel | Llorean: but as I said, I'm personally not against fixing other issues we had yesterday, just that I didn't care enough about those (which is why I agreed to the consensus). But this I care about this one |
| 20:02:44 | kugel | since we basically lie to the user with the naming of the option, and the manual description |
| 20:02:54 | Llorean | Maybe you should post to -dev about whether we should make the algorithm our own, or stick with the original (and in what way we should resolve some of those issues from yesterday) |
| 20:03:12 | Llorean | The name and manual description can be changed... it's not like the *only* option is to change how _ is sorted. |
| 20:03:21 | gevaerts | Llorean: is there a real reason for keeping the algorithm? |
| 20:03:37 | Llorean | gevaerts: Not really. It was just used as a justification yesterday for another decision they made. |
| 20:03:37 | kugel | everthing between upper- and lowercases in the ascii is sorted differently |
| 20:04:15 | Llorean | gevaerts: My point is we should decide which way we're going with it, rather than using it as reasoning for one thing, then throwing it out for other things. |
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| 20:04:22 | * | gevaerts thinks that "but someone else does it this way" can never be a justification for a decision |
| 20:05:01 | | Quit fyrestorm_ ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.1b3/20090305152042]") |
| 20:05:01 | Llorean | gevaerts: Well, there is *some* benefit (in terms of sorting) for our lists to show up in the same order lists in other FLOSS software does. If we don't, people will think *we* have a bug, if it's a widely used algorithm |
| 20:05:10 | Llorean | gevaerts: Unfortunately, I don't know if ours is even used in other software. |
| 20:05:31 | kugel | Llorean: I'm willing to throw it out again. I agree that it's a weak justification, merely enough to justify 1 or 2 issues |
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| 20:06:06 | Llorean | kugel: As i said, why not bring up on -dev the question whether we want to pick a sorting method other software uses, or come up with our own custom one. |
| 20:06:17 | gevaerts | Llorean: ok, all else being equal it can be a reason for things, but all else really has to be equal IMHO |
| 20:06:22 | Llorean | Instead of trying to depend on small groups to decide this, so that it can be argued differently depending on who's around at the time. |
| 20:06:45 | Llorean | gevaerts: Well, "all else" is "ASCII sort does it differently" right now, but of course it does. And our ASCII sort matches ASCII sort anyway. |
| 20:07:01 | Llorean | So I'm not too sure *that's* a huge argument either. |
| 20:07:46 | kugel | Llorean: I don't think need the ml. We already customized code when it was commited |
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| 20:09:01 | kugel | and even more later. I don't think there's need for a discussion again. most devs hardly care anyway (or they disagree with the sorting at all) |
| 20:09:30 | Llorean | kugel: And then we un-customized it. |
| 20:09:34 | Llorean | It's clear there's more than one opinion on this |
| 20:09:49 | Llorean | Why do you always try to avoid having things actually be _discussed_ before you do something? |
| 20:10:13 | Llorean | Is this really so urgent that it can't wait a couple days for responses about it? |
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| 20:14:24 | jaykay | JdGordon|w: i found a statusbar bug... it is shown earlier than the menu wenn a playlist ends |
| 20:14:34 | jaykay | should i write a bug report? |
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| 20:25:10 | kugel | Llorean: sorry I had a disc |
| 20:25:39 | kugel | Llorean: "Why do you always try to avoid having things actually be _discussed_ before you do something?" this is not true |
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| 20:26:31 | Llorean | kugel: It seems _nearly_ every time I've suggested you take something to -dev you've not wanted to. |
| 20:27:14 | kugel | Then your memory is wrong |
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| 20:29:31 | Llorean | kugel: You've started eight threads on the ML in the last year. How many of those were based on my suggesting you do it, then? |
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| 20:31:47 | kugel | Llorean: is this about how often I followed your suggestion, or whether I avoid discussions? |
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| 20:32:42 | Llorean | kugel: This is about how you reject the idea of taking the discussion to -dev for further input before doing it. |
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| 20:35:07 | kugel | Llorean: So, uncostumizing doesn't need ml discussion, but costumizing again needs? |
| 20:35:10 | Llorean | kugel: Your opinion on this idea yesterday was one thing. Today you want to commit a change to behaviour contradictory with *why* we changed it yesterday. And when the idea of discussing it with the very people you discussed it with yesterday comes up, you say "No, I don't think we need to." |
| 20:35:30 | Llorean | You're framing it falsely. |
| 20:35:37 | kugel | And I don't reject to avoid the discussion (I wouldn't even say I rejected the idea), but I really don't think this will yield anything |
| 20:35:48 | Llorean | I suggested -dev as a *way* to make sure you contact the same people who discussed uncustomizing it yesterday |
| 20:35:48 | gevaerts | kugel: customising :) |
| 20:36:02 | Llorean | kugel: If it won't change anything, why are you against it? |
| 20:36:15 | salty-horse | Llorean, seen my message earlier? |
| 20:36:22 | kugel | Llorean: I asked you what to do, I never said I'm going to commit |
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| 20:37:33 | Llorean | kugel: I'm sorry, what part of "I'm willing to throw it out again" and "I don't think we need the ML" is supposed to suggest to me that you want to wait for further input? |
| 20:37:37 | scorche|sh | those who are willing, please feel free to request to be a mentor for GSoC |
| 20:37:38 | Llorean | salty-horse: Yes, a bug would be good. |
| 20:37:44 | salty-horse | ok |
| 20:38:17 | kugel | Llorean: the fact that I asked you and rasher before doing anything. And that I didn't do anything about it yet |
| 20:38:19 | Llorean | scorche|sh: Where? |
| 20:38:39 | scorche|sh | http://socghop.appspot.com |
| 20:38:42 | scorche|sh | as the wiki says |
| 20:38:48 | Llorean | kugel: both those lines came *after* discussing it with me. |
| 20:38:57 | Llorean | kugel: You even said you don't think there's need for discussion again. Clearly. In those words. |
| 20:39:02 | BigBambi | scorche: willing and able perhaps :) |
| 20:39:08 | * | MT wonders if anyone is free to help review his student application |
| 20:39:27 | kugel | Llorean: because either people don't care enough or are against the sorting; not because it's bad or something |
| 20:40:08 | Llorean | kugel: So which is it. Do you want discussion, or do you think there's not need for discussion? |
| 20:40:22 | Llorean | Because you've now given me two messages. |
| 20:40:37 | kugel | I want discussion with those which are interested in this topic. and this are the people I asked here today |
| 20:40:41 | JdGordon|w | jaykay: if you tihnk it should be fixed... yes |
| 20:41:00 | BigBambi | MT: I imagine so - would you prefer it to be private? If so, then if you say what it is about generally then interested people can speak, or if not then just paste a link :) |
| 20:41:06 | | Quit jordoex_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 20:41:14 | BigBambi | kugel: Are you sure? |
| 20:41:18 | kugel | JdGordon|w: I think gwps_leave_wps() should be after the fade_on_stop line |
| 20:41:29 | Llorean | kugel: So, you don't care if anyone else is interested, at all? Just want discussion from the people you get to pick and choose? |
| 20:41:40 | BigBambi | kugel: Why not post, then if it is only the three of you it doesn't matter, but if there are more interested they get the chance |
| 20:41:54 | JdGordon|w | kugel: thats code you added.... |
| 20:42:00 | kugel | right |
| 20:42:14 | kugel | but I have fade on stop turned off for a while, so I didn't notice :( |
| 20:42:21 | MT | BigBambi : it's about adding support for RM (is it okay to propose for ideas not on the list? ) |
| 20:42:35 | kugel | JdGordon|w: oh, and no, the viewport_set_statusbar was before that line too before my change |
| 20:42:45 | scorche|sh | MT: most certainly! |
| 20:42:50 | BigBambi | MT: Certainly |
| 20:43:03 | gevaerts | MT: sure. All ideas are welcome, although of course at this point we won't guarantee anything yet |
| 20:43:15 | scorche|sh | as it says on the wiki page.. "Add your suggested projects here to be reviewed by the applying students. These are only ideas and suggestions, students are free to make up and describe their own project when they apply. If you are a student planning on applying, please come into our IRC channel on FreeNode and talk to us about it! " |
| 20:43:54 | MT | scorche : I don't know why I haven't noticed this before :) , thanks. |
| 20:44:16 | kugel | Llorean: just asking, but you could do that as well, right? It probably seems that I'm the maintainer of this sorting now, so I can understand that I'm in the duty of starting discussions about it |
| 20:44:40 | kugel | JdGordon|w: i.e. not my bug |
| 20:44:49 | Llorean | kugel: If you want to change it, it's more or less your duty to start the discussion of the change you propose. |
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| 20:45:34 | kugel | same happened yesterday, I wonder why you didn't propose ml discussion yesterday |
| 20:46:29 | kugel | but fine, I'm surely not against getting opinions, my doubts about what the mail will yield, shouldn't be an excuse for not doing it |
| 20:46:31 | MT | Here's a link to my application : http://pastebin.com/f535bf301 |
| 20:47:44 | kugel | jaykay: can you see if that helps? moving gwps_leave_wps() in the exit section of the main loop down a bit? |
| 20:47:54 | Llorean | kugel: Yesterday we didn't have a reason for doing anything. We were just clearing up sorting. Then we picked a reason in discussion. Today, you propose to throw out that reason with minimal discussion. That seems a good cause to take it to the ML to me. |
| 20:48:14 | jaykay | kugel: i dont know nothing of anything there, please with a file and line :) |
| 20:48:22 | jaykay | *dont know anything |
| 20:49:12 | kugel | jaykay: http://pastie.org/420128 |
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| 20:50:13 | kugel | Llorean: we changed sorting behavior rather heavily yesterday, I think |
| 20:50:25 | kugel | or I did, rather, but we discussed it |
| 20:52:52 | Llorean | kugel: And now you're proposing to change it back with _less_ discussion. The amount of discussion needed tends to increase over time, not decrease. Especially if we give a _reason_ why we made a change, and you then want to throw that reason out for future changes. |
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| 20:53:14 | * | kugel would actually like to ask the author of strnatcmp for his reasons to chose toupper, instead of tolower which is apparently more common |
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| 20:56:21 | domonoky | MT: looking good. but maybe 1 week for fixed point conversion might be a bit short :-) |
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| 20:57:21 | jaykay | kugel: now its perfect i think, but it seems that showing of the menu (+statusbar) is further delayed |
| 20:57:44 | jaykay | ~1sec after the music stops |
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| 20:57:54 | MT | domonoky : how long would be reasonable then in your opinion ? |
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| 20:59:33 | midgey | MT: s/availble/available/ in 2.1 |
| 20:59:57 | domonoky | MT: i am not sure, i dont know all technical details of this. But i would expect that to be a major task, unless you are already pretty familiar in this conversion thing :-) |
| 20:59:57 | bluebrother | MT: nice. Though I agree with domonoky about the estimated time for fixed point conversion, and I also was wondering what amount of time 1 week should be −− a full time week (i.e. ~40h) or a semi-time week (as you wrote during your exams)? Maybe a slight explanation of that unit would be good. |
| 21:00 |
| 21:00:27 | kugel | jaykay: further delayed? I don't think it's caused by this patch |
| 21:00:48 | kugel | also, turn of fade on stop to see the real delay |
| 21:00:55 | jaykay | kugel: i'll compare it now with a current build |
| 21:01:13 | gevaerts | MT: I guess people who've done this before can tell you best there :) |
| 21:01:21 | midgey | MT: you can ask saratoga. He ported the WMA codec to fixed point so he can probably give a good estimate of time involved |
| 21:01:54 | gevaerts | saratoga: funman mailed me to say that the cable has arrived |
| 21:02:02 | kugel | and he already broke it |
| 21:02:12 | midgey | gevaerts: you said you had an idea about why mac hates the itunes patch |
| 21:03:51 | MT | midgey : Thanks :) |
| 21:04:36 | MT | bluebrother : 1 week = 1 full-time week , I'll make that clear in the application. |
| 21:06:24 | MT | gavaerts, domonoky : thanks. And no I'm not that familiar , I have basic knowledge, so I think I'll wait for saratoga as midgey said. |
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| 21:06:48 | jaykay | kugel: it seems like before the change the statusbar was shown immediately after the music stops, the menu ~1s later. now both the statusbar and the menu are shown ~1sec after the music stops |
| 21:06:53 | jaykay | i hope that helps |
| 21:07:26 | kugel | so it's not delayed more. the statusbar draw is just sync'd |
| 21:07:35 | gevaerts | midgey: yes. It tries reading too much, after which the ipod stalls the endpoint. I'm not sure at all if rockbox handles that the same way (most probably not) |
| 21:08:10 | gevaerts | I need to play around with it a bit to get it right I guess. I should be able to get a mac with itunes for the weekend |
| 21:08:46 | midgey | sounds good |
| 21:09:03 | midgey | what the current belief about handling the xml data? |
| 21:09:09 | midgey | load it from disk? |
| 21:09:10 | gevaerts | midgey: what version of macos do you have? |
| 21:09:20 | midgey | 10.5.6 |
| 21:09:20 | jaykay | kugel: i guess its not really a bug that they are shown a second too late |
| 21:09:22 | jaykay | ? |
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| 21:14:41 | gevaerts | midgey: loading from disk won't save any ramsize I think, because the way the code works currently means that the MSC driver only gets called *after* rockbox has unmounted the disk |
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| 21:15:30 | gevaerts | That means it either has the filesystem but not the audio buffer yet, or the audio buffer but not the filesystem |
| 21:15:42 | midgey | you can't bring the file to memory when rockbox detects a connect? |
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| 21:17:33 | midgey | also different models have different xml files, do we care or do we just want a unified one for rockbox targets? |
| 21:17:34 | gevaerts | no. That would mean stopping audio playback, and we don't know yet at that point whether that's needed. We could rearrange the code of course, but that needs a lot more thinking. This is a tricky thing to get right |
| 21:17:52 | midgey | ah, makes sense |
| 21:18:47 | gevaerts | I think that if we're going to really support talking to itunes, we should do it properly, e.g. expose rockbox capabilities, not the OF ones |
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| 21:23:59 | linuxstb | gevaerts: Wouldn't users expect it to work the same as in the OF though? e.g. ipod video users would probably want to sync videos, and I know if I was such a user, I would want to be able to do it from Rockbox. |
| 21:24:57 | gevaerts | linuxstb: doing that properly means knowing which version of the OF is installed, and knowing what various versions can do I think |
| 21:25:28 | linuxstb | I'm not saying it's easy ;) |
| 21:26:28 | gevaerts | let's make a deal. I work on getting the data to itunes, someone else works on getting the actual data right :) |
| 21:27:26 | jaykay | a question regarding the battery_bench plugin: it does log infos every minute and writes them down every hour or when the disk is accessed, right? |
| 21:27:42 | jaykay | for flash targets it does write the infos every minute |
| 21:29:43 | bertrik | jaykay, the battery bench in principle writes it buffer in the ata_idle_callback, so right after other things accessed the disk |
| 21:30:40 | bertrik | so it tries to piggyback on other disk accesses to avoid skewing the bench by having to spin up a disk |
| 21:30:54 | jaykay | bertrik: does it buffer the infos on flash targets too or does it write them directly? |
| 21:32:21 | bertrik | yes it should buffer on flash targets too, the battery bench code by itself doesn't distinguish between flash or disk |
| 21:33:03 | Llorean | gevaerts: I think we should have an option "iTunes Compatibility - " "Rockbox, Rockbox + Original Firmware, Original Firmware Only" |
| 21:34:24 | gevaerts | maybe, if it isn't too expensive |
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| 21:35:19 | jaykay | bertrik: are data which are supposed to be written in general buffered or does only battery bench do this? |
| 21:35:30 | Llorean | gevaerts: I can't imagine it being very much more expensive than a hardcoded single list if it's done right. |
| 21:35:58 | gevaerts | Llorean: probably. We'll have to see |
| 21:36:07 | bertrik | jaykay, I don't know if it happens in general, but I don't think so, maybe only on the level of a single disk block |
| 21:36:18 | Llorean | If it came down to it, though, I'd prefer we chose to reveal Rockbox's features rather than the OFs if we can only pick one |
| 21:36:33 | Llorean | If they're using the OF, they can dual boot to sync still, so we should design it around what *we* can do. |
| 21:36:47 | bertrik | the buffering in battery bench was explicitly added to keep the number of extra disk/flash accesses low |
| 21:37:58 | bertrik | the buffer is also flushed to disk when it it about to go full (takes several hours without other disk access IIRC) and when the plugin is exited |
| 21:38:37 | jaykay | another question: what does "(every measurement is captured when the voltage changes)" (from the manual) mean? |
| 21:38:39 | jaykay | maybe im the only one who dont understand this, but i think its wrong or not clear |
| 21:39:02 | bertrik | jaykay, I think the manual may be outdated |
| 21:39:19 | jaykay | im thinking that too |
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| 22:00 |
| 22:04:10 | jaykay | BigBambi: did you already have your shufti? |
| 22:04:51 | BigBambi | jaykay: I am doing now - I'm rewriting the whole thing as it needs it (battery benchmark manual entry) |
| 22:05:59 | jaykay | may i have a look at it or will you commit it soon? (not for correcting but just for seeing it before it gets committed :)] |
| 22:06:20 | BigBambi | jaykay: Depends how long it takes :) |
| 22:06:29 | BigBambi | I'll let you know |
| 22:06:47 | jaykay | ok thanks |
| 22:10:39 | pixelma | the menu showing a bit later than the statusbar when leaving the WPS (everytime, not only when playlist ends) is more a menu drawing bug in my eyes... before the statusbar work some time ago, it was the other way round though |
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| 22:20:09 | BigBambi | So, for battery benchmark - given that data are written once per minute, is it possible for it to run out of memory and overwrite previous values before it flushes to disk? |
| 22:20:39 | jaykay | BigBambi: that could happen after some hours, but iirc it write data every hour |
| 22:20:46 | jaykay | or if the buffer is full |
| 22:21:22 | BigBambi | yes, it writes every hour |
| 22:21:36 | jaykay | so the buffer cant get full |
| 22:21:56 | BigBambi | My point is that if it only does measurements once a minute, and writes at least once an hour, the data should be very predictable, so it should never need to overflow |
| 22:22:46 | | Quit jordoex (Connection timed out) |
| 22:23:26 | jaykay | BigBambi: what do you mean by very predictable? |
| 22:24:01 | BigBambi | jaykay: In that we know in advance the maximum amount of data that should ever need to be held in memory |
| 22:24:26 | jaykay | ok |
| 22:24:38 | jaykay | so overflowing isnt possible |
| 22:25:13 | BigBambi | I don't know, that's what I'm asking. It shouldn't need to be possible, but I don't know how battery bench works currently |
| 22:25:33 | Llorean | BigBambi: If it can overflow, at least that should be a fixable bug. |
| 22:25:56 | BigBambi | Llorean: yes, indeed |
| 22:26:32 | BigBambi | Llorean: I'm debating whether to remove the if it overflows old points are discarded and the log file mentions it bit of the manual |
| 22:27:09 | BigBambi | Llorean: I'm thinking of low mem targets here - if the plugin buffer isn't big enough, has battery bench been adjusted to flush more often |
| 22:27:12 | linuxstb | Does the plugin spin the disk up itself, or wait until the next spinup caused by buffering (or the user doing something)? |
| 22:27:33 | | Join sarixe [0] (n=sarixe@68.239.154.103) |
| 22:27:40 | BigBambi | linuxstb: It waits, or does it itself once an hour |
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| 22:28:03 | linuxstb | BigBambi: So it writes at every spinup, or after an hour, whichever comes first? |
| 22:28:11 | BigBambi | If an hour has passed since the last spin up that is |
| 22:28:27 | linuxstb | OK, so it should just need an array of 60 log entries... |
| 22:28:44 | BigBambi | linuxstb: Yes - at every spin up, or if a spin up hasn't occurred for an hour it does it itself |
| 22:28:50 | BigBambi | linuxstb: yes, exactly |
| 22:29:09 | BigBambi | linuxstb: That's what I meant by predictable :) |
| 22:29:31 | * | linuxstb isn't sure what the question is/was... |
| 22:29:50 | obo | Bagder: do you have a list of the other "magic words" in the mi4 file format? |
| 22:30:18 | Bagder | obo: I think sansapatcher is the best resource for that, or mi4code.c |
| 22:30:29 | BigBambi | linuxstb: So, the question was, on low mem targets it may (I haven't checked) not be possible to fit all sixty points in the buffer, so it needs to write to disk more often. Has it been adjusted to do this? |
| 22:30:38 | obo | Bagder: okay, will have a dig |
| 22:30:57 | Bagder | obo: as I recall it, they are two or three different ones |
| 22:31:09 | BigBambi | linuxstb: All this is comming from me not knowing just how clever battery bench is :) |
| 22:31:29 | linuxstb | BigBambi: Looking quickly at the source, it always uses a 16000 byte buffer, which the comments say is big enough for 16 hours of monitoring without saving... |
| 22:31:47 | linuxstb | And when those 16 hours are up, it will force a flush. |
| 22:31:57 | BigBambi | linuxstb: OK, so it should all be hunky-dory :) |
| 22:32:18 | BigBambi | linuxstb: Ah, so it isn't every hour after all |
| 22:32:21 | linuxstb | Where did your "one hour" come from? |
| 22:33:00 | BigBambi | What had been previously said (in here I think) |
| 22:33:15 | BigBambi | linuxstb: But it wasn't gospel :) |
| 22:34:03 | linuxstb | I think bertrik made the last functional change - r18281 |
| 22:34:09 | jaykay | the manual and the wiki said it writes data down every disk activity or every hour |
| 22:34:24 | linuxstb | That may be when it changed to "> 16 hours" |
| 22:34:36 | * | linuxstb assume bertrik will know... |
| 22:34:49 | * | linuxstb assumes... |
| 22:34:59 | BigBambi | Well if that is what the source says then that is cool - I'll update the manual to say that |
| 22:35:25 | linuxstb | I've only quickly glanced at the source though, perhaps wait for bertrik to confirm. |
| 22:35:57 | | Part pyro_maniac |
| 22:36:21 | BigBambi | linuxstb: looking at the logs, he did confirm it earlier |
| 22:36:40 | BigBambi | linuxstb: <bertrik> the buffer is also flushed to disk when it it about to go full (takes several hours without other disk access IIRC) and when the plugin is exited |
| 22:37:00 | BigBambi | linuxstb: Sorry, I missed that before in skimming them |
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| 22:49:39 | gevaerts | I've just been thinking about so-called natural sorting of underscores. I think they should be treated exactly the same as spaces, as I believe that this is what they're usually used for. |
| 22:49:42 | Bagder | rasher: seen that red? |
| 22:50:40 | Llorean | gevaerts: So an underscore is equal to a space except in cases where a space and an underscore must be compared and the rest of the string is identical? |
| 22:50:46 | gevaerts | Llorean: yes |
| 22:51:05 | Llorean | That'd be consistent with at least the way some applications I've seen sort things. |
| 22:51:18 | * | Llorean would really like to know if there's a "standard" natural sorting algorithm for file browsers etc. |
| 22:51:21 | MT | saratoga : ping |
| 22:51:44 | gevaerts | The only other semi-common reason for underscores I can think of is trying to get things sorted the way you want them. In that case I think you should just use ascii sorting |
| 22:52:25 | rasher | Bagder: what? |
| 22:52:39 | Bagder | rasher: http://build.rockbox.org/showlog.cgi?date=20090318T213356Z&type=Toshiba%20Gigabeat%20S%20-%20Simulator |
| 22:52:53 | Bagder | something fishy |
| 22:53:33 | rasher | Odd |
| 22:56:29 | bluebrother | changing the meaning of _ when sorting goes beyond the scope of "recognize number" though |
| 22:57:03 | MT | linuxstb : could I have your opinion on my gsoc application ? (http://pastebin.com/f3689cfe6) |
| 22:57:21 | | Quit jordoex (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 22:57:35 | rasher | That option should never have been named anything related to numbers :\ |
| 22:57:57 | gevaerts | true. |
| 22:58:07 | * | gevaerts votes for "so-called natural sorting" |
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| 23:00 |
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| 23:02:58 | Llorean | rasher: I suggested the name thinking it only affected numbers. |
| 23:04:20 | Llorean | gevaerts: Maybe just "Interpreted Sorting" |
| 23:04:33 | Llorean | Or "Complex Sorting" or "Intelligent Sorting" |
| 23:04:36 | Bagder | "another sort" ;-) |
| 23:04:42 | BigBambi | I have to say, I assumed that it would just change the order of e.g. 1,12,2 to 1,2,12 and not anything else |
| 23:04:43 | Llorean | Some sort of term that hints at what it does, without actually *meaning* anything realistic. |
| 23:04:59 | domonoky | Rockbox Sort :-) |
| 23:05:03 | gevaerts | "Hard to explain sorting" |
| 23:05:15 | Llorean | BigBambi: I knew it was ignoring leading zeros, but I still think that aspect of it is bad. I'd rather it attempt to interpret the meaning of the digits that are there, without throwing away anything intentionally typed. |
| 23:05:34 | Llorean | I still prefer, at this point, finding out if there's a "common" algorithm in use out there, and just matching it. |
| 23:05:45 | Llorean | If our file browser shows the same list as their file browser, we're less likely to get bug reports (I think) |
| 23:07:13 | JdGordon|w | once again... the *only* way to get around the constant arguing is to provide a simple scripting mechanism so the user can choose his own sorting rules |
| 23:07:51 | gevaerts | Llorean: I wouldn't be too surprised if desktop file managers use locale dependent sorting anyway |
| 23:08:01 | | Quit domonoky (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 23:08:04 | JdGordon|w | i would be surprised if they didnt |
| 23:08:17 | Bagder | JdGordon|w: yeah, as then we can argue about how the scripting would work... |
| 23:08:47 | rasher | gevaerts: still, some bits are more universal |
| 23:08:48 | JdGordon|w | well thats more technical so not as many people will care aobut getting their 2c in :) |
| 23:09:00 | bertrik | BigBambi, regarding battery bench, I updated the comments in the code and the entry in the wiki, but didn't think of the manual |
| 23:09:15 | * | bertrik wonders why this stuff is documented in three places anyway |
| 23:09:20 | BigBambi | bertrik: It very shortly will be :) |
| 23:09:24 | Llorean | gevaerts: I think enough of it is universal to at least determine our behaviour. Or we could just go with the locale you'd use for English or UK English, in cases where we *have* to make a choice. |
| 23:09:35 | rasher | Llorean: C |
| 23:09:39 | BigBambi | bertrik: I think the stuff in the wiki that is in the manual should be scrapped |
| 23:09:39 | rasher | The locale, that is |
| 23:09:53 | Llorean | rasher: C? |
| 23:09:58 | rasher | Nautilus treats _ as spaces, fwiw |
| 23:10:12 | Llorean | Does our algorithm treat _s as spaces? |
| 23:10:13 | rasher | Llorean: The locale system uses "C" to basically mean "no locale" |
| 23:10:19 | Llorean | rasher: Ah, well that's better then |
| 23:10:33 | gevaerts | C basically means "ascii sort" |
| 23:11:10 | rasher | gevaerts: I wonder if nautilus still does "smart things" when using C |
| 23:11:31 | gevaerts | probably. These things have a deplorable tendency to put directories first |
| 23:11:47 | rasher | Llorean: no idea - I just think I saw something about _ |
| 23:12:28 | bertrik | BigBambi, the text that the plugin writes to the battery_bench.txt is silly anyway. To read it, you have to open a viewer plugin which will abort the battery bench. Then you'll be able to read that you should not be opening another plugin ... :S |
| 23:12:52 | BigBambi | bertrik: indeed so |
| 23:14:07 | linuxstb | MT: It looks very good to me. My only doubt about your project plan would be regarding the conversion to fixed-point (which I will admit I know nothing about) - 1 week seems very optimistic, unless you have experience of doing this before. |
| 23:14:15 | Llorean | rasher: I don't mind treating _s as spaces since that's a case of "interpreting". I just don't like ignoring things, in general. People may not know to add characters to control sort, but I think it's better to assume "if they added it they meant to" than "if they added it, we should pretend it's not there" |
| 23:15:05 | MT | linuxstb : I got the same comment from midgey, gavaerts, BigBambi and bluebrother :) |
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| 23:15:22 | BigBambi | bertrik (jaykay): New bit for manual - http://pastebin.com/m5da433ee |
| 23:15:24 | linuxstb | MT: Then I think you should listen to them ;) |
| 23:15:25 | kugel | Llorean: did my mails to the ml actually come through? |
| 23:15:25 | gevaerts | MT: neither of which knows about this :) |
| 23:15:34 | Llorean | kugel: Haven't seen any |
| 23:15:40 | MT | linuxstb : I'm waiting for saratoga to get an idea about how long it would take |
| 23:15:52 | kugel | I don't see my mails, neither an answer, but I'm not entirely sure if I turned "receive own mails" off |
| 23:16:05 | kugel | uhm |
| 23:16:05 | rasher | kugel: Check the archive? |
| 23:16:13 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 23:16:37 | linuxstb | MT: The other thing you may find hard is extracting code from ffmpeg. Have you looked at that library at all yet? Do you have an understanding of how it works? |
| 23:16:54 | | Quit blkhawk (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 23:17:24 | kugel | they're in my sent folder.. |
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| 23:17:31 | MT | linuxstb : I have looked at it so many times my eyes are crossed :) |
| 23:17:53 | * | kugel sends one again |
| 23:19:08 | rasher | Llorean: fwiw Nautilus sorts 3 04 5. |
| 23:19:19 | MT | linuxstb : that's a question I wanted to ask you ; when testing cook decoder with the current demuxer, should I leave it there and ust include its header and link it ? or should I take all the related files in another directory and work with it ? |
| 23:19:42 | Bagder | sort -g |
| 23:19:56 | Llorean | rasher: As I've said, my favorite idea is to mimic file existing browsers |
| 23:19:58 | Bagder | printf '4\n03\n10\n2' | sort -g gives 2 03 4 10 |
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| 23:20:21 | Llorean | rasher: I'm only in favour of not ignoring characters, if we're going to decide to make our own decisions anyway. I *hate* the idea of ignoring things a user has chosen to input |
| 23:20:38 | kugel | seems to be a problem with my desktop |
| 23:20:48 | rasher | Llorean: You're still under the impression that he's chosen to input them *specifically* to change sorting in that instance |
| 23:21:01 | | Quit ibseco () |
| 23:21:39 | Llorean | rasher: My other assumption is "if they're put in accidentally, it's a case where they aren't supposed to be in order anyway" |
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| 23:21:51 | Llorean | rasher: You've yet to describe a case where *ordered* songs have mixed numbers. |
| 23:22:00 | * | gevaerts thinks that people who name files specifically to get them sorted correctly must be banned from any non-ascii sorting |
| 23:22:12 | linuxstb | MT: I would copy the files from ffmpeg into my own directory (e.g. the same one as the demuxer). |
| 23:22:49 | linuxstb | MT: One other thing about your application - it might be useful to mention what other codecs are possible in an RM file, and which have open source decoders. |
| 23:22:50 | rasher | Llorean: gevaerts makes a good point, if you don't use asciibetical sort, why are you renaming files weirdly? |
| 23:23:13 | Bagder | Llorean: because they could come from difference sources |
| 23:23:21 | Llorean | Bagder: Then why are they ordered? |
| 23:23:32 | Bagder | like people download songs |
| 23:23:43 | Bagder | and they have song number included |
| 23:23:55 | Llorean | Bagder: Downloading a whole album, one song at a time, seems rather tedious. |
| 23:23:58 | MT | linuxstb : okay, thanks for your help. |
| 23:24:07 | rasher | Llorean: Why would it need to be a whole album? |
| 23:24:09 | Llorean | And if you download them from the same source (a legitimate one) they ought to be numbered properly anyway |
| 23:24:18 | rasher | Could be a million songs from a million different albums |
| 23:24:20 | Bagder | Llorean: perhaps but known to happen |
| 23:24:24 | Llorean | rasher: Then why does order matter? |
| 23:24:29 | | Quit einhirn (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 23:24:38 | BigBambi | bertrik: Do you think the battery bench for the manual is OK? - http://pastebin.com/m5da433ee |
| 23:24:39 | Llorean | Basically, your statements are "order matters in random songs" is what I'm understanding |
| 23:24:39 | rasher | Llorean: because you'd expect to find songs with track number 2 near eachother |
| 23:25:00 | rasher | Etc. |
| 23:25:00 | Llorean | rasher: So we break intentional numbering for "people who may randomly download songs"? |
| 23:25:26 | gevaerts | Llorean: you could download an entire album in individual tracks from different vendors because of weird pricing :) |
| 23:25:29 | Llorean | I don't see why we favour the person who has completely random filenames, while making it impossible to force ordering with 0s. |
| 23:25:30 | rasher | You've yet to explain this fabled "intentional numbering". Where does it happen with people who use natsort? |
| 23:25:33 | Bagder | intentional renaming, as in zero-prefixing guys like me, could just use ascii |
| 23:25:43 | rasher | Exactly. |
| 23:26:04 | rasher | Llorean: smart sort is *already* for the sloppy file-namers |
| 23:26:11 | rasher | s/smart sort/natsort/ |
| 23:26:16 | Llorean | Bagder: And if you have albums from multiple sources, where your folder names are intentionally numbered (because you wrote them) but your filenames aren't (because someone else did)? |
| 23:26:16 | | Quit BXCracer (Remote closed the connection) |
| 23:26:27 | Llorean | I think we should favour the "if there are zeros, they're intentional case" |
| 23:26:30 | rasher | Llorean: Then you're not a zero-prefixing guy |
| 23:26:33 | Llorean | Rather than assuming they're _always_ unintentional |
| 23:26:35 | rasher | But a sloppy namer |
| 23:26:48 | gevaerts | Llorean: that's not what nautilus does! |
| 23:26:58 | Bagder | I say the sort should treat consecutive digits as a single number |
| 23:27:01 | MT | linuxstb : should it go in the 'Abstract' section ? |
| 23:27:04 | * | gevaerts plays dirty :) |
| 23:27:05 | Llorean | gevaerts: you missed the point where I said "I'm in favour of this *IF* we choose to go our own way at all" |
| 23:27:37 | Llorean | Bagder: I think we should treat preceding zeros as *existing* rather than ignoring them outright. |
| 23:27:47 | Bagder | clearly we think differently |
| 23:27:47 | gevaerts | Llorean: I did miss that indeed... Thanks for clarifying |
| 23:28:03 | Llorean | Bagder: If 01 - B comes before 1 - A then we acknowledge zerose |
| 23:28:09 | Llorean | Bagder: Either ignore them always, or ignore them never, at least. |
| 23:28:39 | Llorean | But you're already being inconsistent about them, so why not accept they're always intentional, rather than saying "they're only intentional in the case of the non-zero digits matching"? |
| 23:28:48 | Bagder | "consecutive digits means a single number" is not really that hard |
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| 23:29:05 | Llorean | Bagder: But 01 and 1 are not sorted as "a single number" at that point |
| 23:29:11 | Bagder | yes |
| 23:29:20 | Bagder | they're the same |
| 23:29:27 | Llorean | They aren't sorted the same currently |
| 23:29:34 | Bagder | i know |
| 23:29:52 | Llorean | So you agree that "01 - B" comes after "1 - A" if we want to sort consistently? |
| 23:29:58 | Bagder | no |
| 23:30:05 | Bagder | oh |
| 23:30:07 | Bagder | wait |
| 23:30:08 | Llorean | But 01 and 1 are the same if you treat them as a single number |
| 23:30:09 | Bagder | perhaps |
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| 23:30:44 | linuxstb | MT: I was thinking about the "Adding more decoders :" section in 2.2.1 |
| 23:30:51 | Llorean | That's my problem. Right now "02" comes after "1" (in the proposed way) thus ignoring the zero, but "01 - B" would come before "1 - A" because it resorts to strcmp and 01 comes before 1 |
| 23:30:53 | Bagder | right, 01 - B comes afrer 1 - A |
| 23:31:05 | rasher | Llorean: it does not resort to strcmp |
| 23:31:07 | Llorean | We have a sort where sometimes they're considered intentional, and sometimes not. |
| 23:31:17 | rasher | Llorean: only "01 - A" and "1 - A" resorts to strcmp |
| 23:31:24 | Llorean | rasher: I was told in the case of "matching values" for the number it does. |
| 23:31:27 | bertrik | BigBambi, looks OK and correct to me |
| 23:31:31 | MT | linuxstb : ah yes, that's better. |
| 23:31:35 | rasher | Llorean: You were misinformed, or misunderstood |
| 23:31:48 | BigBambi | bertrik: cool, thanks - I'll commit it then |
| 23:31:55 | Llorean | rasher: I still think it's stupid to throw things out. |
| 23:31:58 | kugel | Llorean: No, 01 - B comes before 1 - A in the actual version |
| 23:31:59 | rasher | Calling strcmp is the very last resort when *the entire string* compares equal with strnatcmp |
| 23:32:05 | gevaerts | Llorean: the strcmp is there because we need a stable ordering, no other reason |
| 23:32:06 | bertrik | I'm not a native english speaker, but to me it looks the word "will" is used a lot that could be made more active |
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| 23:32:09 | Llorean | kugel: 01 - B should come AFTER 1 - A |
| 23:32:17 | Llorean | kugel: Rasher just said it should too. |
| 23:32:24 | kugel | if we ignore leading zeros 01 - B comes after 1 - A, no strcmp is involved |
| 23:32:25 | bertrik | e.g. "will run" to simply "runs" |
| 23:33:00 | Llorean | kugel: If we're ignoring zeros, then. |
| 23:33:18 | kugel | you said "but "01 - B" would come before "1 - A" because it resorts to strcmp and 01 comes before 1", which is wrong |
| 23:33:23 | Llorean | Anyway, as I've said, I think if we're defining our own sort, we shouldn't throw out user input on the _loose_ chance that someone has a mix of entirely randomly named files that they need in order. |
| 23:33:36 | kugel | those do not sort the same, just because the numbers sort the same |
| 23:33:44 | BigBambi | bertrik: yeah, can do - I've been writing too many academic papers (I'm too passive) :) |
| 23:33:48 | Bagder | hah, but sort -g does not do this... |
| 23:33:58 | Bagder | printf '01-B\n1-A' | sort -g |
| 23:34:11 | Llorean | Bagder: It turns out I was wrong anyway. |
| 23:35:12 | | Quit casainho ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.7/2009030422]") |
| 23:36:03 | BigBambi | bertrik: Yep, good call - I've changed those |
| 23:36:16 | | Quit itcheg (Client Quit) |
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| 23:42:33 | rasher | Some different sortings: http://pastebin.ca/1364717 - I personally think Nautilus does the best job of being smart |
| 23:43:06 | MT | linuxstb : how about this http://pastebin.com/f19227929 ? |
| 23:44:03 | Bagder | oh, handles the "floats" too... |
| 23:44:11 | | Quit flydutch ("/* empty */") |
| 23:44:12 | rasher | I wonder if it handles , as well |
| 23:44:29 | | Quit jgarvey ("Leaving") |
| 23:44:52 | linuxstb | MT: Rockbox also supports AC3 |
| 23:45:07 | rasher | Ah, looks like Windows handles floats when using the locale-specific spearator |
| 23:45:54 | MT | linuxstb : oops, yes, I'm very sleepy now, that's why :) |
| 23:47:39 | MT | linuxstb : when do you think I should send my application ? |
| 23:48:07 | | Quit JdGordon|w ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client") |
| 23:48:10 | | Quit petur (Remote closed the connection) |
| 23:48:48 | gevaerts | MT: Previous years students could still edit things until the deadline. I assume that that's still the case, so I see no need to wait |
| 23:48:59 | | Quit jaykay (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 23:50:01 | Bagder | you need to wait until March 23 though ;-) |
| 23:50:14 | Bagder | "Students can submit their applications via the Google Summer of Code 2009 site from March 23 - April 3, 2009. " |
| 23:50:40 | MT | gevaerts : I just want to modify the (fixed-point) thing though, when is saratoga available ? |
| 23:51:14 | MT | Bagder : oh yes, forgot that ! |
| 23:51:36 | gevaerts | MT: depends. around this time usually |
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