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#rockbox log for 2009-03-24

00:00:02Bagdertaylor_: nano 2g+ are more different
00:00:39taylor_Yeah, trust me, I know :) Its just the older guys I haven't studied much
00:00:47rasherbluebrother: I basically just removed everything and saw what was missing when building, then svn upped that. Then made the tarball with −−exclude-vcs
00:00:52 Join perrikwp [0] (i=4aa794a0@gateway/web/ajax/
00:00:53Bagderif you know, why do you ask?
00:01:25taylor_I dont know? I said: I dont know that much about the older ones, but 3g/4g nano I do.
00:01:29Bagderrbutil 1.2 packages are now on the download master
00:01:50rasherI think we should just link them on the page already
00:02:10Bagdertaylor_: you asked about the similarities, I told you about diffs and you told me you know
00:02:13rasherBetter have people wait a bit than get an old version without theme support
00:03:11taylor_Bagder: Yep. Im just talking about when you said 2g+ are different
00:03:20 Quit bmbl ("Woah!")
00:03:23taylor_it doesnt matter i guess
00:03:41*taylor_ heads over to the wiki
00:03:43BagderI think the main obstacles with the emu is the surrounding hw anyway
00:03:55taylor_CPU is easy
00:04:18taylor_it will be integrating flash support, a pretend clickwheel, etc
00:04:39 Quit taylor_ ("Leaving")
00:05:19*rasher has modified RockboxUtility to link to the 1.2 versions, will hold off on saving the changes
00:05:41*amiconn notices that he forgot to do something back in October
00:05:55domonokyoktoberfest ! :-)
00:06:10amiconnThere's still no "How to make a flash image" wiki page
00:06:32*amiconn took some notes what to do immediately after the release
00:09:26 Quit perrikwp (" ajax IRC Client")
00:09:53saratogawe didn't get anyone this year asking about the emulator right?
00:10:25Bagdernot yet
00:12:45amiconnBagder: Are the builds already available somewhere? I'd need the archos packages for including the mail 3.2 .ucl in the flash packages
00:12:59Bagderhang on
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00:14:13amiconnWe're lucky regarding the rombox start addresses; not fix necessary except a little padding for the player bootloader to push it over the 24K limit (we're using 28K on all targets since the 3.0.1 packages)
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00:16:23Bagderbah, _now_ I realize I hadn't created the pool directory for the voice builds
00:16:27Bagderno wonder they were slow
00:16:37 Part domonoky
00:16:47 Quit taylor_ (Client Quit)
00:16:55amiconnBagder: Thanks, got them
00:17:59*amiconn is using the asm'ized ucl decrucher for quite some time already (with inofficial flash images)
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00:25:26*Bagder copies 178MB data release stuff
00:25:45 Quit parafin (Remote closed the connection)
00:25:47JdGordon|any chance for some download stats also?
00:25:55JdGordon|the last one you did was months ago
00:26:11BagderI haven't talked to the download server admins yet so no
00:26:19 Join parafin [0] (
00:26:27Bagderthe ones I did were for the build server and those stats are less useful these days
00:26:48JdGordon|they are no less useful than they were before
00:27:10Bagder these days more people than before use the download servers
00:27:36Bagderat least I'm convinced that's how it is
00:27:56JdGordon|that would make sense
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00:35:21 Quit n1s ("Lämnar")
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00:36:02*rasher notices we're getting close
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00:44:04 Nick fxb is now known as fxb__ (
00:45:26 Join robin0800 [0] (
00:46:57gevaertsOK, so why did playback just stop halfway a track on my F60? Running r20404 + FS #9795
00:47:14JdGordon|thats a good question
00:47:45gevaertsI don't know yet.
00:48:16 Nick fxb__ is now known as fxb (
00:48:27gevaertsAny info you need from e.g. the buffering thread?
00:49:24JdGordon|not really.. have a look and see if anything looks funny
00:49:33JdGordon|it just stopped? didnt freeze or crash?
00:50:28gevaertsThe WPS was mostly blank when I looked, showing (root) and things like that. Aftre leaving the WPS and going back it now shows the metadata correctly, but track length is shown as 0
00:50:50Bagder3.2 is now available on at least one of the mirrors
00:51:12 Join itcheg [0] (i=62db4767@gateway/web/ajax/
00:51:17JdGordon|gevaerts: did this happen after fjust leaving it playing? or track skipping?
00:51:23rasherBagder: And rbutil
00:51:41 Quit PaulJam (".")
00:51:42amiconnBagder: I'll soon have the flash packages ready
00:51:46gevaertsJdGordon|: it was just playing. I hadn't touched it for at least ten minutes
00:51:47Bagdersomeone please fire away a mail!
00:51:55gevaertsI use random folder advance, but it's not near the end of a folder (about halfway 3 of 4). This is using flac
00:52:02*Unhelpful has another case (besides the wide cabbie theme) for searching for tagged filenames when loading album art: AA that has been filtered to match look+feel of some wps theme
00:52:04amiconnI'm testing right now; Player is already verified wortking
00:52:29gevaertshm, I'm lying. Metadata is not complete. Some bits are missing
00:52:32*Bagder updated the site
00:52:46JdGordon|gevaerts: crap... ok, i guess this is a track you havnt had roblems with before?
00:52:47*amiconn now has Rockbox 3.2 RomBox running on his Player
00:53:08gevaertsJdGordon|: not that I can remember. Random folder advance tends to make you not notice that :)
00:53:08rasherUnhelpful: Yeah, that's what I was aiming for with the transform stuff earlier
00:53:44JdGordon|gevaerts: yeah, fair enough... ok, ill try some flacs tonight and see what happens, was there anything funny in the buffering screen?
00:54:38gevaertsJdGordon|: hard to say, I'm not too used to it... PCM is at 0, the other three numbers are at about 6MB of 28
00:54:58 Join evilnick [0] (i=620ec27e@gateway/web/ajax/
00:55:26Unhelpfulyeah, i want to add some lines and distortion to simulate a tiny screen behind a giant fresnel lens. totally pointless. ;)
00:55:38 Quit Conic (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
00:55:43JdGordon|thats odd... pcm shouldnt get to 0 if the other bars have anything
00:55:45gevaertsJdGordon|: if there's nothing more to see I'll try to restart playing (pause/unpause, or stop if that doesn't work, or maybe reboot). I'll play the same track again
00:55:56Unhelpfuli see one problem with your reflection case, i don't think we really handle drawing text over wps, do we?
00:56:20JdGordon|gevaerts: yeah, go for it, see if its reproducable at all
00:56:33rasherUnhelpful: you mean over images? No. It'd have to be off to one side or something
00:56:44 Quit ender` (" cd /pub && get beer")
00:57:01Unhelpfuli can see the reflections eating a *lot* of screen
00:57:07rasherCould work on landscape screens
00:57:38gevaertsJdGordon|: pause/unpause or skipping didn't work. stop did work though
00:58:44gevaertsThis is a 16:57 flac file of 66MB
00:59:16*Bagder sent the mail
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00:59:32Bagderthat's only minutes left of 23rd in utc
00:59:42gevaertsbut it's in time!
01:01:29*amiconn notes that the flash rom version bump & manual adjustment could have been done a bit earlier, but should be done on the release day, not earlier
01:01:31JdGordon|7h left of the 23rd here...
01:01:32 Join z35 [0] (
01:01:34JdGordon|plenty of time
01:01:59rasheramiconn: why not?
01:02:27amiconnThen release candidate builds would fire the version warning when flashing an .ucl
01:02:44 Part toffe82__
01:02:45rasherIs that a real problem?
01:03:26JdGordon|Bagder: btw, next time, we/you/whoever should hold off the announcment untill we know for sure all the servers are up to date
01:03:45BagderI rather go to bed ;-)
01:03:53JdGordon|fair enough :)
01:04:28amiconnBagder: Where should I put the new flash packages?
01:05:23 Quit JdGordon| (" ajax IRC Client")
01:05:38Bagderput them somewhere I can download them from
01:06:07rasherUnhelpful: But that just means that size isn't the best way to pick. Maybe the %Cl tag can specify a suffix to look for?
01:06:14amiconnI'll test Ondio SP as well, then all those I am able to test are tested
01:06:36rasherUnhelpful: So you'd have cover.widecabbie.bmp or something
01:06:50 Quit perrikwp (" ajax IRC Client")
01:07:35evilnickrasher: why not use the dimensions in pixels rather than the wps name?
01:07:45rasherevilnick: to avoid collisions
01:07:47 Quit robin0800_ (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
01:08:36rasherIt makes more sense anyway, if you've filtered albumart to a specific theme - it isn't suitable for use in any other theme
01:09:04rasherIs anyone posting in the forum?
01:09:11rasherAn announcement, that is
01:09:24Bagdergo ahead!
01:09:56 Quit Thundercloud (Remote closed the connection)
01:10:26Nico_PBagder: the closest target to being included in the next release is the beast IMHO
01:10:38Bagderoh right
01:11:13Nico_PI would've posted a comment but I don't want to register...
01:12:03 Quit tessarakt ("Client exiting")
01:12:49Bagderamiconn: we'll put the images on the dl server in the morning, I need to sleep now
01:13:16*rasher isn't quite sure how to sort MajorChanges
01:14:25 Join Tennessee [0] (n=d808e07a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
01:14:51TennesseeHello. I am a newbie looking for some simple instructions
01:14:55 Join jordoex [0] (
01:15:26TennesseeI got a sansa e280, I just got it running a week ago. I just had some questions I am having trouble findng in the manual.
01:15:49evilnickTennessee: Fire away
01:16:17TennesseeI uploaded the firmware with automatic, and it has the extra stuff on it.
01:16:31TennesseeI was wondering how I could delete some things I dont want but keep what I do want
01:16:46evilnickWhich items?
01:17:03Tennesseewell for one thing there is some music on there
01:17:27Tennesseeotherwise I am not sure which games/apps I want and dont want yet... but maybe I would like to know for future reference
01:18:00 Quit itcheg (" ajax IRC Client")
01:18:18evilnickTennessee: The music would have been there from the Sansa firmware so that's not needed
01:18:25Tennesseethere is some music that was automatically installed with the extras feature...
01:18:30Tennesseethat was from sansa??
01:18:41TennesseeI thought it was from Rockbox
01:18:44 Quit kugel (Nick collision from services.)
01:18:44evilnickIn terms of the games, apart from doom, they take up a very small amount of disk space
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01:18:50***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
01:19:29TennesseeI looked at the memory and it said like 5gb out of 8gb...
01:19:48evilnickTo delete the music, you can simply highlight the file (or even the folder) and do a long click on the select button and then find Delete
01:20:02TennesseeI cant find the file with the file viewer for music
01:20:21evilnickTennessee: The OF will hide that folder deliberately
01:20:38evilnickChange the file view to All and then the Music folder will be visible
01:20:54Tennesseeok let me try
01:21:20evilnick(long press on Menu (down on the d-pad like arrangement of buttons))
01:22:03 Quit BlakeJohnson86 (Remote closed the connection)
01:22:28TennesseeI am setting it to show files all?? how do I select it
01:22:57evilnicker... try Power
01:22:58Tennesseethere got it
01:23:38Tennesseewill these folders show up when I look at the storage device in my computer?
01:23:49evilnickI'm not sure that Sansa would put a whole 3GB of music on it though! Mine had maybe 100 or 200 MB
01:24:06evilnickProvided your computer is set to show all files
01:24:57Tennesseethere it is working
01:25:31Tennesseemusic folder 71 mb
01:25:37Tennesseewhat is taking up so much space?
01:25:40evilnickWhen the OF boots, it will set the "music" folder to be hidden. So the usual advice is to store your music in a different folder so that you can have the File View set to whatever you want
01:26:03TennesseeI will make a new music folder then.
01:26:17Tennesseewhen I get a sd card then I will store music in there I think.
01:26:43evilnickI'm still puzzled as to where the 3GB went!
01:27:08Tennesseeehh... I do have a dead show that is still .flac 1 gb
01:27:11rasherTry rescanning the disk for free space
01:27:25rasherHang on..
01:27:56evilnickTennessee: What are you looking at to report the free space? Rockbox or your computer?
01:28:21rasherTennessee: System > Rockbox Info, press Select
01:28:35evilnickAha, Rockbox needs to be told to update the free space so follow rasher's instructions
01:29:33Tennesseeit says 5.61gb/7.45gb
01:29:46TennesseeI said I have a dead show on there 1gb... its still flac
01:30:00TennesseeI put a few more songs on it
01:30:17evilnickTennessee: Try running the disktidy plugin too, in case there's items in the Recycle Bin
01:30:24amiconnThe free space information needs to be updated only if it was used on a windows PC before
01:31:21amiconnEven though microsoft invented fat32 and it's fsinfo block, they decided to ignore that block in windows and not update it. Afaik linux updates it properly; no idea what macos does
01:31:39evilnickamiconn: Thanks for the clarification
01:32:08Tennesseecan I delete the old sansa MUSIC folder/PHOTO/VIDEO etc??
01:33:14evilnickTennessee: If you want to. IIRC there are also some sample videos there so they'd take up some room too.
01:33:39Tennessee.IIRC folder?
01:34:19TennesseeI think I will keep the games and apps and demos if they do not take up so much room
01:34:58TennesseeI think I will get winamp pro to decode my flac to mp3... I do not have a good program to convert to mp3 so all I have takes up too much room
01:35:43TennesseeThanks a lot for the help. Lots of lostof questions
01:36:03evilnickIIRC = If I Recall Correctly
01:36:53Tennesseeso you cant really delete what games you want?? or is it too technical. otherwise I will keep the games and apps and demos
01:37:03TennesseeI like them anyways.
01:37:28scorcheyou can delete any .rock files you want, however they dont take up much space..
01:38:02TennesseeI wont then
01:38:15Tennesseejust trying to figure out why there is so much space taken up on here
01:38:49Tennesseeso if I make a new music folder do I have to make sure I do not name it music again so it wont hide the folder?
01:39:17evilnickTennessee: Spot on, I think that may be in the fine manual too
01:39:55 Join taylor_ [0] (
01:40:25Tennesseespot on?? does that mean I am right?
01:40:42evilnickYes it does
01:41:03TennesseeI will name it MUSAC instead
01:41:32taylor_For anyone interested, here is the ENTIRE guide that covers the notes section of the ipod. There is a lot more that you can do with this than some people think.
01:42:22Tennesseeanything else that would be good to delete?
01:42:49saratogayou can safely delete anything not in the .rockbox folder
01:42:57evilnickTennessee: Did you install the doom .wad?
01:42:59 Join BHSPitMonkey [0] (n=stephen@unaffiliated/bhspitmonkey)
01:43:28rasherscorche: Maybe we can change the current theme site error into something slightly more optimistic
01:43:29Tennesseeits not already installed automatically?
01:44:09evilnickTennessee: I'm not sure. I think that it's a different tab in rbutil.
01:44:34TennesseeI was playing doom... everything is just really tall and skinny and hard to see
01:44:44Tennesseeso its working anyways
01:45:01 Quit taylor_ ("Leaving")
01:45:23Tennesseeso if I delete everything besides .rockbox it wont screw anything up??/ I just wont be able to run original sansa firmware?
01:46:05 Quit Nico_P (Remote closed the connection)
01:46:06evilnickTennessee: You'll still be able to run the OF by holding Left when you switch the Sansa on
01:46:36Tennesseeok so its good to delete the system folder??? version.sdk?
01:47:04 Quit moos ("Rockbox rules the DAP world")
01:47:29evilnickEr... Best leave the system folder alone. I wouldn't want to tell you incorrect information
01:47:42Tennesseewell I just wnat to know the truth
01:47:51TennesseeI wont delete it if it will screw stuff up.
01:48:06TennesseeI am not a computer genius
01:48:17evilnickTo be honest, I don't know. So best leave it alone, or wait for somone with more knowledge to help you
01:48:20Tennesseeso I do not want to go into really complicated stuff that is over my head
01:48:26Tennesseebut I can do some things
01:48:40Tennesseethanks for the heads up
01:48:47evilnickNo problem
01:49:04TennesseeI can delete other folders like photo, music, video, playlists?
01:49:23davidfg4I think it is safe to delete everything from a sansa(except .rockbox)
01:49:32evilnickAll those are safe to delete
01:49:51davidfg4the original firmware just recreates it when it starts
01:50:08Tennesseeok.... what is version.sdk, version.txt, root.m3u?
01:50:49evilnickthe m3u is definitely deletable
01:50:57davidfg4you can delete any of that
01:51:09davidfg4but it will be recreated if you start the OF
01:51:20evilnickAnd saratoga did say that you can delete anything but the .rockbox folder so you should be okay
01:53:14Tennesseealrighty, thanks a lot
01:53:26TennesseeI am looking some stuff over now...
01:55:59Tennesseei am an artist so I want to put my pictures on here
01:56:08TennesseeI got them loaded up.
01:56:59TennesseeIs it bad to unplug the usb while it is still on? or disconect it?
01:59:34davidfg4on windows there is an icon that will safely disconnect your device
01:59:55davidfg4but so long as it is not writing data it is probably fine to pull it
02:00:02kadobanit's a bad thing to do so without safely disconnecting in one way or another
02:00:20Tennesseemany different answers to one question
02:00:39kadobandavidfg4: that depends heavily on the OS and you really shouldn't rely on it
02:00:41rasherThe safe answer is: Always use "Safely disconnect"
02:01:04rasherAnything else is a gamble
02:01:20Tennesseeok, that was a dumb question...
02:01:29Tennesseebut I keep doing it without thinking
02:02:40Tennesseethere is so much space taken up and I cant figure it out
02:03:42Tennesseehow many mb in a gb?
02:05:04davidfg4or 1000, depending on how you count
02:05:06Tennesseemayb I am reading it backwards
02:05:22Tennesseeit says 6gb/8gb that means I have 6gb left
02:06:39Tennessee6.63gb/7.45gb means I have 6.63gb left right?
02:08:10Tennesseein my computer it says I am using 884 mb
02:08:28Tennesseebut it says the device is only 6.63 gb
02:10:00Unhelpfulrasher: it's an idea. we could just key from the wps filename itself, but it probably makes more sense to have to enable it explicitly
02:10:08saratogayou're not reading correctly
02:11:34 Quit MethoS- (Remote closed the connection)
02:12:56rasherBy the way, why don't we store the filenames of loaded fonts, themes and languages so the lists can center on the currently used one?
02:13:06rasherAt least for fonts this makes a lot of sense
02:13:34Tennesseefor images... what is the maximum resolution/size of the image? Or what size does it need to be?
02:13:40 Join taylor_ [0] (
02:14:08Unhelpfulrasher: i'm agreed, there, after loading a theme, if you don't like the font, you probably don't even know what size the used font is without opening the theme in the text editor
02:14:54davidfg4Images can be any size(there might be a max, I don' t know)
02:15:05davidfg4The jpeg viewer can zoom
02:15:11rasherMy father was bitching at me about this the other day, and I had no good defense other than "uh.. we don't store the font name"
02:15:15TennesseeI put a lot of images on and it is not showing them it says unsuported
02:15:23davidfg4are they jpg?
02:15:47Unhelpful"unsupported" when trying to do what with them?
02:16:07TennesseeI just went to the file browser and just selected the image
02:16:10rasherSome types of jpeg files can't be opened with the viewer. The manual has the details
02:16:12Tennesseeone of them showed up
02:17:03 Quit flydutch ("/* empty */")
02:17:18amiconnIt doesn't just say 'Unsupported', there's an associated error code displayed (negative number)
02:17:21Unhelpfulprogressive encoding is by far the most commonly used of features we don't support
02:17:41 Quit taylor_ ("Leaving")
02:17:47amiconnI bet it's -4, meaning progressive scan
02:18:00TennesseeI could not find this in the manual
02:18:20TennesseeI am looking
02:18:24rasherTennessee: check again
02:19:37Tennesseewhere is it at?
02:19:45rasherTennessee: the note at the bottom
02:20:16rasheramiconn: that tells very little the manual doesn't
02:20:44amiconnAh, didn't check the manual
02:21:18TennesseeProgressive scan is not supported, but RockBox complains about such pictures (Unsupported -4).
02:21:25Tennesseemine is saying Unsupported -4
02:21:34rasherSo there you have it.
02:21:44Tennesseewhat is progressive scan?
02:22:57rasherTennessee: Wikipedia's article on JPEG explains.
02:23:45amiconnUnhelpful: Btw, the new inner loops in PF render_slide() are pretty much maxed out now. I tried asm on SH1 - it wasn't any faster
02:24:31rasherIt doesn't seem to be actually called progressive scan though, rather "Progressive JPEG"
02:24:32amiconnIt seems that on smalll displays the covers at the sides aren't faded out, so that the simple loops are used (almost?) always
02:25:18 Quit jordoex (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
02:25:31Unhelpfulnew? what'd ya do? :D
02:26:04amiconnDidn't you see r20456?
02:26:05Unhelpfuli still think the that an asm direct-fdiv might be worth a try, but it can probably only benefit our fastest (in pf) targets, anyway...
02:27:00Unhelpfuland it's outer loop, so it's only a per-column speedup
02:27:16Tennesseeso what do I need to do to fix it?
02:27:22amiconnThe min()/max() stuff I am working on might help too
02:27:56 Quit agaffney (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
02:28:06amiconnHow fast is PF on iPod Video?
02:28:12UnhelpfulTennessee: an application call jpegtran can losslessly fix them for you. if you use windows, i'm not sure how best to fix it.
02:28:16 Join agaffney [0] (n=agaffney@gentoo/developer/agaffney)
02:28:49Unhelpfulamiconn: i'm not sure. probably could use some help, the CPU is about the same as e200, isn't it?
02:29:07Tennesseethats a lot of stuff to do
02:29:13TennesseeI will just forget about it for now
02:29:40amiconnUnhelpful: It is exactly the same core.
02:30:19Unhelpfulyes, that's going to *hurt* then, because the covers are larger and you can *easily* fit 6 or 7 on-screen
02:30:29Unhelpfuland it only gets 30-35fps on e200
02:30:32evilnickTennessee: will *probably* help you with that
02:31:00Tennesseethis is complicated stuff. if its not too tricky I can probably figure it out.
02:31:20TennesseeI have photoshop.. .youd think that could do it
02:31:33evilnickProbably yes
02:32:28amiconnUnhelpful: Btw, for testing speed it's useful to make PF render fullspeed all the time. Scrolling text will look funny if you do this on a fast target
02:32:58Unhelpfuli think you only need to force the timeout when it gets a new action, for that?
02:33:22Tennesseeso its not the size of the picture thats screwing up
02:33:32*amiconn gets 82fps on his mini G2
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02:35:53TennesseeI dont even know what to do really
02:40:08davidfg4when saving the image in photoshop, under Format Options set it to Baseline instead of Progressive
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02:45:33Tennesseeok can I resave images I already had saved?
02:47:34Tennesseewhat is baseline standard/optimized?
02:47:53Tennesseethank you I will resave my images then
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02:50:15Unhelpfuli believe optimizing should be just fine, it only uses customized huffman tables instead of predefined ones. by just resaving, you *are* losing some image quality.
02:51:39Tennesseeohhh... no matter what way I resave it??
02:51:47Tennesseemaybe I should resave in a different folder?
02:53:09Unhelpfuli said how to do it without loss. load/save will result in (hopefully not noticeably) reduced quality. it's probably best not to overwrite your originals. this is also getting pretty far away from really being *rockbox* support, at this point :)
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02:53:42Tennesseeoh... sorry I didnt mean to waste your time or anything
02:53:45Tennesseeyou are helping me a lot
02:54:08TennesseeI didnt realize it was support
02:54:34TennesseeI am very grateful for your very kind and selfless generosity
02:55:05TennesseeI hope I am not being a nuisence or I am taking away from anyone else who need help more than me
02:57:52Unhelpfulnot terribly, but we have a channel for talk about stuff not related to rockbox itself, and you might want to read the guidelines. :)
03:01:26Tennesseeoh yeah, the guidlines
03:01:38TennesseeWell I will get off of here before I piss anyone off.
03:01:44Tennesseebut thanks a lot
03:01:53TennesseeI will try and see what I can do from here
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03:05:00JdGordonamiconn: why does the player flash image need to be updated every release? doesnt it only need updating if something actually changes?
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03:16:34TBOL3Yesterday, I was online, and tried to help you guys get Sansa players to work with Ubuntu 9.04
03:16:55TBOL3I would like to know if the problem got solved, or if there is more information needed.
03:17:09taylor_probably more info needed....
03:17:55TBOL3I see. I'm stuck in windows at the moment, but if you tell me what I need to do, I will happily help you in about 45 min.
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03:22:08TBOL3Ok than, umm... I want to help rockbox with GSOC, and would like to know what you guys are looking for in an applicant.
03:22:26rasherTBOL3: The logs for this channel are public. You can go back and see for yourself -
03:23:43taylor_I didnt know Sansa didn't work with Ubuntu ?
03:24:45robin0800taylor_: it does if you use kde
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03:26:53TBOL3rasher: Ya, I looked, but I didn't see anything obvious to indicate that you had solved the problem.
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03:33:44TBOL3Well, um, to start, I assume that you want the result of the GSOC to be released under the GPLv3 (or v2, I'm not sure), as that seems to be what the rest of rockbox is released under.
03:34:46scorcheRockbox is (mostly) GPLv2 or later
03:42:05taylor_what major differences are made in newer GPL versions exactly?
03:42:10TBOL3Great. Ok, and is there any language that you want the projects in? It seems like you are using C.
03:42:27taylor_pretty much the same ;)
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03:42:58TBOL3taylor: The main difforences are really negligable. It's mainly just an update to the licenses that it's compatible with, and a few tweeks to protect you from newer technology.
03:43:22scorchetaylor_: there are wikipedia entries about that...and there are a number of important differences between C++ and C
03:43:23TBOL3taylor: if you care, I would recomend listening to the Free Software Law Show
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03:43:55taylor_scorche: one, obviously being classes
03:44:27cspotcodesurprisingly, I think the GPL v3 actually has provisions that rockbox specifically would care about (if I may interject)
03:44:40scorcheyeah...we ahve heard that before
03:45:04cspotcodeabout the provision that blocks device vendors from putting rockbox on a device that doesn't let you change the firmware?
03:45:28scorchewe arent interested in moving to 3 or later as of this moment...yes...tivoization
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03:51:27martyfuhryShould prospective Google Summer of Code applicants have experience with rockbox on some device?
03:52:23TBOL3scorche: Great, I prefer v2!
03:52:23JdGordonits not a prereq
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03:52:51TBOL3JdGordon: Really?
03:52:59JdGordonmartyfuhry: you'd be more likely to finish the project if you've had rockbox experience and been in the community... but its not really needed
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03:53:19JdGordonGSoC is a good way to get new people...
03:53:47taylor_would the version of the license affect how you would want to write your code?
03:53:53scorcheand in fact, that is one of the main objectives of GSoC ;)
03:54:11TBOL3JdGordon: Oh, I was thinking you were saying that it wasn't a preq, to have used rockbox before. Oh well. Ya, I do agree. That's how I hope to get in...
03:54:43TBOL3taylor: No, not how you would write the code, rather, it's what people can do with your code.
03:55:25kugelNo, it's not a prerequisite. It just helps
03:55:42TBOL3taylor: With the gpl v2, a company like SanDisk can put rockbox as the OF for their player, and prevent you from replacing the firmware (for DRMish reasons usually). But under the GPLv3, they can't do that.
03:56:53TBOL3taylor_: Ya, apperently Linus Torvalds doesn't like the GPLv3, but he does the v2.
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03:57:09kugelthere're many people that dislike v3
03:57:52TBOL3kugel: Ya, I like the v2. But than again, I haven't done much practical coding, yet.
03:58:33scorcheif you wish to continue the licence discussion, we have a nice offtopic channel for these things
03:58:54scorchelicense too
04:00:00taylor_TBOL3 made some valid points. I thought it was sort of interesting?
04:00:25JdGordonyes, but off topic
04:00:41TBOL3Sorry about that. Anyway, a little more on topic, what else do you guys want from a GSOC applicant?
04:01:57JdGordonhave you done the application yet? written up the proposal?
04:01:59scorcheTBOL3: have you read google's advice for students page?
04:02:09TBOL3taylor_: Oh, do you want to continue the discusion (I'm not on the offtopic channel at the moment, but I will if you want to continue it there.
04:02:14scorcheTBOL3: communication with us is a massive aspect ;)
04:02:33TBOL3scorche: Yup, and that's why I'm here!
04:04:19martyfuhryCan anyone tell me more about the Player Management Tool proposal? It caught my attention, but there's not much information on the site page.
04:05:27cspotcodeI also had a specific question about that: Do you have a preference on what tools or libraries are used for the Player Management Tool? I want to learn QT, so that's why I ask.
04:05:28TBOL3martytuhry: That's actually the project that interests me the most... :) I was thinking of making a ubiquates player.
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04:06:13TBOL3\cspotcode: Actually, I don't think you should make a front end, but rather, a back end, so that it can be plugged into the users favorite player, amoraK, etc.
04:06:13martyfuhryTBOL3: a ubiquates player?
04:06:19scorcheQT would likely be the prefered route, as our rockbox utility already uses it, so we have a number of developers familiar with it
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04:06:29*scorche adds an r
04:07:30cspotcodescorche: ok, thanks. Also, is support for the FM radio a priority? I have a tiny Sansa c200 that I use for running, so I get a lot of use out of the radio, and would like to make better PC-side support for that
04:07:38TBOL3martytuhry: Basically, a complete content managment system. Say for example your listening to a file, and your half way through it, you should be able to just plug in your player, and continue right where you left off. Just one example.
04:07:55scorchecspotcode: what is there to support PC-side?
04:08:28cspotcodescorche: Rockbox lets me scan for radio presets, but the PC could then look up the names of all those stations by querying the FCC's site
04:10:06TBOL3cspotcode: So, how do you plan on implementing this?
04:10:58scorchethese sound like interesting options (some may not be quite what we would like, but we can deal with it then...), but the database/tagcache integration is the main item we would look for in such a project...put together a proposal and we can look it over and suggest from there
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04:11:27cspotcodescorche: ok, thanks for the feedback.
04:11:59scorcheyou also might get some better responses at a different time period when some other devs are awake and they might be a bit more interested in such a project
04:12:35taylor_I should probably be heading to bed. TBOL3 good luck with your project :)
04:12:42taylor_goodnight gusy
04:12:48TBOL3scorche: Thanks. I have a few other ideas. How about if there was complete syncing accost varios computers, rather then just from a computer, to a DAP?
04:13:31TBOL3taylor_: Thanks! And good night.
04:13:42taylor_TBOL3 I will be on here around the same time tomorrow if you would like to discuss more?
04:13:43scorchethat can get complex and is likely an unwanted feature
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04:14:32scorcheof course, everything I say is my opinion, but I do not think other devs would find such a feature appealing
04:14:37TBOL3scorche: Ok than. Which brings me to my other proposal, so make a 'simple rockbox'.
04:14:56TBOL3scorche: I understand, and am greatfull to any and all feedback.
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04:15:51TBOL3from what I've heard, it would need to include more of a study into what people want out of their DAPs, and then coding it?
04:16:45TBOL3That also sounds really fun, but I want to know how much the devs would want it (from what it seems, not much)
04:16:54scorchehrm...i am not sure about such an idea, but other devs may have other opinions on it
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04:17:24cspotcodescorche: last question for the night: Are most devs on IRC in the evenings in their time zone, or during the daytime?
04:18:05TBOL3Ok. :( That's ok. I understand. you guys want a cool powerful system, and not a simple one. I was just hoping because I saw it on the suggested project list.
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04:18:58scorchemost devs are around during "awake" .eu hours...not sure where you live, but you can see IRC stats on the website that may clue you in
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04:20:16cspotcodescorche: I'm GMT -5. I'll check the IRC stats. Thanks for talking with me
04:25:36TBOL3Oh rats, I looks like most of the devs are on right during my classes. :( Oh well, at least I'm not taking (much) school over the summer. :)
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05:06:28TBOL3OK, thanks people for all of your great suggestions. Anyway, It's getting late, and I've got a bit to do before bed. So once again. thanks to all of you wonderful people!
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06:49:16perryb2006i have a query regarding installation of rockbox 3.2 via rockbox utility, the utility version 1.2 isnt installing rockbox version 3.2 !!
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06:51:47Lloreanperryb2006: Are you picking to install the release, and not the current build version?
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07:24:26*JdGordon wonders how Llorean can say the touchscreen is usable in its current state
07:24:59LloreanI don't know what its current state is.
07:25:04LloreanHas it gotten worse in the last half year?
07:25:18JdGordonso you havnt used it with the grid?
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07:25:54LloreanWhat did it have back then, then?
07:26:45LloreanI've just booted mine and it certainly seems to be a grid
07:26:59LloreanTouches in the top/bottom middle move up/down lists, left/right middle go forward/back, and center selects
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07:27:07JdGordonhmm... ok, double checked svn and it was added 11 months ago
07:27:22JdGordonthe mr500 isnt usable with the grid for whatever reason
07:27:33LloreanMaybe it's a touchpad driver issue.
07:28:06JdGordoni vagualy remember it being usable
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07:28:17JdGordonapparently i've had the mr500 for 2 years already!
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07:30:01FlynDiceDo I have to edit a linker script to get my new crt0-as3525.S to link correctly or is editing the SOURCES file going to be enough?
07:30:06LloreanIt's possible the grid could be reduced from 9 areas to a less grid-like 5 areas (divide a square from corner to corner to get four triangles and draw a smaller square in the center of it) to make it need less precision.
07:30:15LloreanBut the general functionality is sound for my use.
07:30:16JdGordonFlynDice: sources should be enough i tinhk
07:30:44LloreanThen any touch along a specific edge of the screen would be that "direction"
07:31:27FlynDiceJdGordon: thanks
07:32:42*JdGordon listens to music on his mr500 for the first time
07:32:57JdGordonwow, so much needs fixing! :D
07:34:40codyyyI need help getting my Gigabeat F40 to work, I have researched and tried many different fixes but to no help
07:36:48Lloreancodyyy: It's better to ask your actual question.
07:36:54codyyyfirst problem was error 0000010, found out the HDD wasn't connected properly, however I formatted using Gigabeat and then it went to a 00300060
07:37:20Lloreancodyyy: Problems getting the original firmware to work really should be taken to Toshiba. They actually know what those numbers mean, we don't.
07:37:32codyyyok pretty much I'd like to know if there is any way I can just use Rockbox completely on its own on my player
07:38:55LloreanThe player needs to be working before you can install Rockbox, as we don't replace the initial flash bootup code
07:39:39codyyyok thanks. I'm getting a 0000020 code now, and from the research I've done, I think that's a code I can't fix
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08:10:57amiconnJdGordon: Yes, and something *did* change
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08:44:14JdGordonamiconn: what changed?
08:45:11amiconnI added it to MajorChanges and the release notes... the flash bootloader now uses the asm optimised UCL decompressor
08:45:39JdGordonok, fair enough
08:45:58amiconnThis should already have been in 3.1, but then then flash images were forgotten :\
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09:41:48B4gder64 bit rbutil and new archos flash images are now on the dl master server
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09:45:51GodEateris there anything which needs testing / debugging on vista at the moment ?
09:46:09*GodEater 's new laptop came with an install of vista which he hasn't deleted yet
09:46:30webguest44Hi, keybox, how strong is the encyption ?, I'm thinking of storing my banking details in it
09:47:04B4gdereh, you mean on what scale?
09:47:08B4gderI'd say a 5
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09:48:06B4gdersee for the algorithm used
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09:48:33B4gderand apps/plugin/keybox.c to review the code
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09:49:02webguest44thanks for the link.
09:51:25webguest44for info, I did look it up on your site here but didn't really get usefull information
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09:52:01B4gderit's a wiki, feel free to help is keep things correct
09:52:06B4gderhelp us even
09:52:27webguest44I'll add that link to that page, np
09:52:45GodEateryou may need to be given write access first of course...
09:53:07webguest44I have access thank you
09:54:22Galoisdid the author of keybox.c pay attention to block cipher modes? It doesn't look like it to me (then again I've only looked at the C file for five minutes)
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09:57:44B4gderblock cipher modes? but I have no idea what anyone might have paid attention to
09:57:58Galois has a nice picture. You don't want to use ECB. I believe from looking at the code that keybox.c uses ECB.
09:58:33webguest44so in light of comments above, it seems that the code hasn't really been reviewed for "strength of encryption", I'll hold off in using it for my banking details
09:58:57B4gderwebguest44: but who would do that and with what kind of confidence?
09:59:26B4gderGalois: I don't think the code comes from there
09:59:36Galoisa block cipher mode is not a piece of code
09:59:41Galoisit's a way of using the cipher
09:59:43B4gderand block cipher only means it encrypts/decrypts in blocks
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09:59:58B4gderwhy is that better/worse than what's now?
10:00:02Galoisyes, TEA is a block cipher, therefore block cipher modes are relevant
10:00:19B4gderah is that what you're saying?
10:00:27B4gderyou don't really speak out
10:00:30LloreanGalois: The cipher can't magically be used in a particular way without code to use it, so I don't get your "not a piece of code" bit.
10:00:59B4gderyou mean a block cipher is bad for this?
10:01:11Galoisit's complicated. I'll try to explain.
10:01:15B4gderI figure without enough salting or padding it could be
10:01:36GaloisTEA is a block cipher. It covers one thing and one thing only: how to convert [block size] number of bytes to another number of [block size] bytes.
10:01:41B4gder"everything" these days use block ciphers
10:01:50GaloisWhen one speaks of the cipher, this is what is meant.
10:02:03GaloisThe wikipedia reference code does just that - encrypts one single block
10:02:06Galoisor decrypt one single block
10:02:27GaloisI notice keybox.c uses the same code as in wikipedia, so we can say with confidence that it operates on individual blocks correctly
10:02:50B4gderyeah, unless there's a bug in other parts
10:02:50Galoisbut, what you put into each block, is a separate issue from what you do with each block
10:03:08Galoisit looks to me like keybox.c does the simplest thing: put plaintext directly into a block, and encrypt
10:03:13Galoisthis is called ECB mode of usage
10:03:34Galoistheres some endian-ness byte swapping but this is not considered highly relevant. It's basically ECB.
10:04:03GaloisCryptographers generally prefer to pre-process the blocks in a more nontrivial way prior to encryption
10:04:11Galois(and un-preprocess it after decryption)
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10:04:28Galoisthese preprocessing routines have various names, CFB , CBC, and so on
10:04:33B4gderyes, as I mentioned above it really should to be more secure
10:04:36GaloisI dont' see any such preprocessing going on
10:04:55B4gderbut then TEA is not that strong cipher to start with
10:05:11Galoisto a cryptographer, the pre-processing step is separate from the core encryption routine, which in this case is TEA
10:05:14B4gderI don't think this plugin is meant to be supersafe for 100 years ;-)
10:05:36Galoisthe pre-processing is a bunch of xors, and highly cheap. There's almost never any reason not to do it.
10:05:51B4gdergo ahead
10:06:58*GodEater awaits a patch
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10:10:56webguest44well, I currently store my banking details encypted in a USB stick within truecrypt, problem is to access I need to have a pc, but using a unknown pc for banking is foolish, so I thought that keybox might be the answer because I dont need truecrypt and hence a pc, (I can access my bank accounts via phone)
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10:28:21jaykayis the new sorting algorithm not in 3.2?
10:28:54LloreanNo, it's not.
10:29:33LloreanBecause it's not done.
10:30:18LloreanIncomplete features get disabled if they haven't yet been in a release, and we know in advance there's still things to work out about the way they work.
10:30:47jaykayok, thanks
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12:27:27linuxstbrasher: What's the status of the theme site?
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13:11:12rasherBagder: did you see the 64bit rbutil?
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13:18:44B4gderI did and I put it where it belongs this morning
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13:19:05B4gderI renamed it to use the previous naming style
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13:24:30rasherGreat. Someone should update the wiki (if not done already)
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14:35:29assadi would like to work on text to speech.where should i start?
14:35:55assadi am little familiar with espeak
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14:39:02markunassad: this might be a start:
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14:39:49n1seh sorry for the caps
14:40:09assadn1s: what do u suggest then?
14:40:55markunwould there be a license problem with espeak as a GPLv3 plugin?
14:41:39n1sassad: i don't know what to do but a GPLv3 version of espeak can not be integrated with rockbox while rockbox remains GPLv2
14:41:59n1smarkun: since plugins are linked against rockbox they need to have a compatible license
14:42:01markunn1s: is rockbox GPLv2? I thought we changed everything to GPLv2+ now
14:42:28markunyou mean linked at compile time or when they are executed?
14:42:35gevaertsmarkun: it's v2+, but we want to keep it that way
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14:42:54n1smarkun: yes, we are GPLv2+ but the only difference is that we *can* migrate to GPLv3, it doesn't necessarily mean we will or should
14:42:55Erantmarkun: Doesn't matter. Unless espeak has an LGPL version.
14:43:06markunwould it change to GPLv3 or GPLv2 if some plugins use either?
14:43:39n1smarkun: linked at compile (well link) time
14:44:19markunn1s: then you would just end up with a GPLv3 plugin which is compatible with the GPLv2+ rockbox libs it got linked with, right?
14:44:34markunhm, I see the problem..
14:44:41n1sgplv3 is not compatible with gplv2
14:44:45markunthat's what I hate about open source :)
14:44:52ErantGotta love this shit.
14:44:58n1syes it's bloody annoying ;)
14:45:02markunbut GPLv3 is compatible with GPLv2+
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14:45:32n1smarkun: no they are not compatible but gplv2+ code can be *relicenced* as gplv3
14:45:43markunah, damn
14:46:18ErantWhat was the main difference between v2 and v3 again?
14:46:37ErantGotta be a lawyer/coder these days :/
14:47:38markunI know that they people from XMMS2 care less about this.
14:47:51markunThey think that it's ok to have plugins in a different license
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14:48:14n1sit depends on how plugins are integrated afaiu
14:48:16markunthey just have an API which is BSD licensed, but I was told here that that's not legal
14:48:40markunn1s: so if we integrate them differently it's possible for us as well?
14:49:42ErantAs long as you don't link stuff in. Has to exist as a seperate entity
14:49:44n1smarkun: afaik, yes
14:49:57ErantPeople have to be able to swap it out.
14:50:19markunErant: what do you mean? That plugins can't be swapped out in rockbox?
14:50:34kugelpetur: ping
14:50:42pixelmaI believe I once was told it's not easy to integrate them differently as a Rockbox plugin relies an a couple of functions so that you can only use it as a plugin under Rockbox
14:50:51peturkugel: plonk
14:50:57n1swell, the problem is in 2 parts for us 1) plugins are linked to the rockbox main binary and 2) they must include the plugin.h header which is under gplv2+
14:51:16ErantDamned viral licenses.
14:51:38peturkugel: I didn't look much further into the proble, real-life came inbetween
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15:17:56kugelpetur: no problem, just ping me once you have some minutes
15:18:48petur*maybe* tomorrow evening unless I have not too many beers tonight ;)
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15:19:49peturkugel: can you reproduce? because this was happening on the main screen, not the remote
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15:21:38kugelpetur: no, I don't have a remote. It probably problematic if the backlight is off when entering the wps
15:22:01peturah right....
15:22:38kugelthe initial update is incomplete
15:23:08kugelbut in theory, this shouldn't be a problem, since nearly the same update is done when activating backlight
15:26:17kugelpetur: either the screen needs to be cleared later in gui_wps_display(), or the update on activating backlight should be gui_wps_display() (instead of gui_wps_redraw)
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15:26:39peturas I said, only the backdrop is missing (not replaced by the WPS backdrop), all the rest is fine.
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16:27:31pyro_maniac1ich hasse deutsches ebay
16:28:03pyro_maniac1im in den usa und in uk kannst de alles zu vernünftigen preisen ersteigern nur hier sind die leute wie bekloppt
16:28:17pyro_maniac1wrong channel
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16:33:31kugelpyro_maniac1: ping
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16:35:24pyro_maniac1kugel: pong
16:35:56rasherlinuxstb: Ready, but waiting for scorche
16:36:49kugelpyro_maniac1: so you put rockbox on the yh 920?
16:36:58kugelis there a way to recover/revert to OF?
16:37:14kugelI have a yh-820 here which seems pretty similar, it takes a .mi4 as OF too
16:37:37kugelit's not mine though, so I'm wondering if it's possible to delete rockbox again
16:38:02pyro_maniac1my modification until now was only to make a h10 5g build and put a patch for lof into file in
16:38:18pyro_maniac1usb stack works in most pieces
16:38:32pyro_maniac1and logf into file too
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16:39:13kugelpyro_maniac1: yea, I know that
16:39:36kugelhow to "uninstall" rockbox, though?
16:39:58pyro_maniac1only copy the old mi4 file back and it works again
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16:45:44kugelpyro_maniac1: just dropping the OF into the root dir, I guess?
16:51:05pyro_maniac1at the time i am disassembling the bootloader but i am not good at this
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16:53:32*linuxstb thinks we need to think up some qualification tasks for SoC again this year...
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17:02:27mcuelenaeredoes anyone know - besides setting the segment class to CODE - an other way to mark a segment that it contains code in IDA?
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17:08:13pyro_maniac1linuxstb: because i am not in disassembling?
17:13:24BigBambiscorche|sh: topic needs a change :)
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17:30:15pyro_maniac1kugel: are you testing the h10 buld on your yh-820?
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17:41:31kugelpyro_maniac1: no, battery dead, and no usb cable :(
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17:42:43pyro_maniac1i have two because i have bought an old yh 925 too
17:42:48pyro_maniac1are the compatible?
17:42:59pyro_maniac1the = they
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18:13:32HillshumChange the topic to say 3.2 is out?
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18:18:33HillshumShould I add myself to the DevCon page as a user even though I can't travel and don't expect it to be anywhere near me?
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18:19:38gevaertsdepends. If you would attend if it's close to you, why not?
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18:27:48rasherWe *should* change the topic. Problem is there are far too few people with ops here...
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18:28:34LambdaCalculus37Maybe Bagder or scorche can change it for us?
18:29:15Topic"Please read before speaking: | Please direct offtopic/social chat to #rockbox-community | 3.2 is released! | Rockbox has been accepted to participate in GSoC2009!" by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
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18:54:04saratoga_labFS #10053 - Sansa AMS >2GB support
18:56:22_Auron_one step closer getting the v2s officially supported
18:57:11*mcuelenaere got working sound on the Onda VX747 :)
18:57:33rashermcuelenaere: time for a mail!
18:57:54Bagdermcuelenaere: you rock!
18:57:55mcuelenaereyeah, first need to figure out what song was played first :)
18:58:45*rasher just put up windows simulator builds for 3.2
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19:06:53n1smcuelenaere: great work!
19:07:32LambdaCalculus37mcuelenaere: Congrats! :)
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20:14:15Diamondblade2009I got an iRiver H140 off ebay just to run rockbox :)
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20:14:24Diamondblade2009they are so rare those iriver players
20:14:32BigBambigood choice
20:14:56Diamondblade2009I also wanted the iRiver for its suite of recording functions
20:15:12Diamondblade2009Virtually all mp3 players today are player only, no recording (apart from voice recording)
20:15:43Diamondblade2009Is there a way to turn off the Rockbox logo in the bottom right corner of the screen?
20:15:43LambdaCalculus37So is there anything you want to ask regarding the H140?
20:16:05Diamondblade2009Does Rockbox support the optical in/out on the H140?
20:16:09BigBambiDiamondblade2009: Change the backdrop
20:16:23Diamondblade2009oh right how do i do that?
20:16:24BigBambiDiamondblade2009: yes, please take a look at the manual
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20:16:55Diamondblade2009yep, done
20:17:02MStoykovGood evening
20:17:09Diamondblade2009Good evening
20:17:09MStoykovI have Creative Zen
20:17:19Diamondblade2009I also have an iPod 160gb Classic
20:17:19rasherWhere should I put information regarding licensing of our included themes? (for now) wps/COPYING?
20:17:32Diamondblade2009its a pity rockbox isn't supported on the ipod 160gb
20:17:39MStoykovI saw that there are some pages about it
20:17:55Diamondblade2009but i believe the ipod 6 f/w is scrambled
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20:18:07BigBambiMStoykov: I don't know the state of the zen in detail, but it is very much not for anyone but developers
20:18:08MStoykovbut I didn't find any information if it actually runs on zen or not
20:18:14Diamondblade2009seriously, the iriver machines fetch very high prices
20:18:16Diamondblade2009on ebay
20:18:20Diamondblade2009I paid £200 for mine
20:18:25BigBambiDiamondblade2009: Encrypted firmware, new undocumented hardware, etc
20:18:30archivatorIs there anything better than pluginlib_resize I can use to scale a graph? I'd like to not do the fixed-point math myself...
20:18:37BigBambiDiamondblade2009: Please try and stay on topic
20:18:46Diamondblade2009i was just saying
20:18:49Diamondblade2009my apologies
20:19:02MStoykovI was just hoping it runs mp3 or anything at all
20:19:19BigBambiDiamondblade2009: This is a support and development channel - if everyone just said then the noise would be unbearable
20:19:31MStoykovas I was going to propose to do some work on the support as summer of code project
20:19:34BigBambiMStoykov: As I said, it is not anywhere near suitable for users
20:19:47BigBambiMStoykov: Ah, well that is different then
20:19:57Diamondblade2009im just wondering if the ipod 160gb would get supported
20:20:03Diamondblade2009i think rockbox would run pretty neat on it
20:20:14BigBambiMStoykov: First step will be to read the thread in the new ports forum, and the wiki pages. All info should be there
20:20:36BigBambiDiamondblade2009: Right, and I've said why it isn't going to happen unless there is a major unforsen breakthrough
20:20:45 Join webguest93 [0] (n=40eb617d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
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20:21:39 Quit larsivi (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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20:22:54 Join Conic [0] (
20:22:59 Join larsivi [0] (
20:25:42Diamondblade2009sorry im new to this
20:25:43 Join DarkSpectrum [0] (n=ZX@
20:25:48 Join saratoga_lab [0] (n=9803c264@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
20:26:09BigBambiDiamondblade2009: 'Tis OK - I'd advise reading the guidelines linked in the topic :)
20:26:39gevaertsJdGordon: I've played the same set of tracks through last night without issues, so it's not a bad file
20:26:39DarkSpectrumhello, i've compiled the bootloader for a v1 Clip, can someone please tell me how to get it onto a sansa clip?
20:26:57saratoga_labcheck the wiki
20:26:59JdGordongevaerts: ok
20:27:03saratoga_labinstall directions are on the sansa page
20:27:13DarkSpectrumallready have and cant seem to find a thing
20:27:36DarkSpectrumsansapatcher.exe doesnt seem to work, or there is a command line i am not aware of
20:28:40mcuelenaereMStoykov: the creative ZEN doesn't have code running on the target - lack of documentation (which means it isn't at all in state where you could run Rockbox on it)
20:28:49mcuelenaeres/in state/in a state/
20:29:12archivatorIs lib/fixedpoint.h the only plugin-accessible fixed-point library? It *is* kinda limited..
20:29:43 Join kugel [0] (n=kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel)
20:30:15DarkSpectrumi'm game to do all the reading i need to, could someone point me to a link with detailed instructions on installing the bootloader onto a clip?
20:30:38saratoga_labDarkSpectrum: you're not following the correct instructions
20:30:43kugelJdGordon: heh, with my recent wps reworks, my custom list patch basically works like a charm now
20:30:46saratoga_labyou need to use the ones for the clip, not for the old e200
20:31:06gevaertsDarkSpectrum: have a look at the SansaAMS page
20:31:16 Quit Diamondblade2009 ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
20:31:59DarkSpectrumsaratoga: i am, i've compiled the bootloader "55" in cigwin and i am useing the version i compiled
20:32:39saratoga_labDarkSpectrum: the directions do not mention sansapatcher, so why are you using it?
20:33:11 Quit perrikwp (" ajax IRC Client")
20:33:14DarkSpectrumcause i cant find any other info on doin the bootloader hence why i'm here :)
20:33:36saratoga_labyou said you had the instructions . . .
20:34:08DarkSpectrumi followed what i thought were them, guess i dont then
20:36:39 Join yhuang [0] (n=yhuang@unaffiliated/yhuang)
20:38:42MStoykovI suppose this means that no one tried hard enough to run rockbox on ZEN, not that someone found it too heavy for the player or any other kind of reason that make it impossible to run rockbox on ZEN
20:39:24saratoga_labprobably, though both sides of your either or are basically the same
20:39:39MStoykovI don't meant to offend any one with"hard enough" part
20:39:48gevaertsMStoykov: the zen is certainly powerful enough for rockbox
20:39:52 Quit parafin ("So long and thanks for all the fish")
20:39:53kugelpyro_maniac: they look pretty compatible if you ask me
20:41:05rasherHm, the mrobe500 sim is not quite there...
20:42:56pyro_maniackugel: you can get mine if you want
20:43:03pyro_maniacas I said, I have 3
20:43:08pyro_maniacääh 2
20:45:56 Join nibbler [0] (
20:46:07DarkSpectrumargh i cant seem to find any info on installing the bootloader, can someone please give me a link to the info
20:46:25gevaertsDarkSpectrum: I did
20:47:03 Quit nibbler (Client Quit)
20:47:32DarkSpectrumi did look at the SansaAMS page, cant find info for the bootloader
20:47:44mcuelenaereMStoykov: I would say the problem is the lack of interested/experienced people and lack of documentation
20:48:08gevaertsDarkSpectrum: in that case I recommend reading it again
20:48:23mcuelenaerethere is a Linux kernel for the STMP36xx available though (the ZEN runs a STMP37xx)
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20:49:17DarkSpectrumok n/m i have been blind :P
20:49:27DarkSpectrumnow i need to find mkamsboot :)
20:49:32saratoga_labDarkSpectrum: are you aware that rockbox on the clip doesn't actually work?
20:50:01saratoga_labthe directions are meant for developers, and you don't strike me as the kind of person that likely to do much development
20:50:01 Quit cspotcode ("Leaving.")
20:50:27MStoykovI was reading some of the wikis and the forum post about the Zen. And I was wondering if I would need to take it apart :)
20:51:02DarkSpectrumyes i am, interested in learning and maybe eventually helping
20:51:35MStoykovI actually use it at the moment (and it's my only source of music out of home and I would be glad if I get some information how to do it (and undo it)
20:52:49mcuelenaereMStoykov: there's no real need for that, the wiki already has some pictures of the inner of the zen
20:52:50saratoga_labMStoykov: is there any reason to take it apart?
20:53:10shotofaddsLlorean, JdGordon, mcuelenaere (or whoever is interested): I've added a setting to switch the touchscreen mode between the 3x3 grid and abosulte point modes, but I wanted some feedback before commit. The patch is at fs#9129. Any comments?
20:53:28*mcuelenaere takes a look
20:53:48shotofaddsI also think the plugin loader should set the touchscreen mode to Grid before launching plugins, and reset the user's preference afterwards. How does that sound?
20:54:02MStoykovI don't want to if it is possible as I have two left hands ( meaning I am not the dexterous type of person
20:54:30mcuelenaereshotofadds: personally, I would prefer a button combination to switch between the two modes
20:54:44mcuelenaereand some of the plugins should have support for the absolute point mode
20:55:12mcuelenaereMStoykov: I don't think there's any need for you to take it apart
20:55:17MStoykovbasically the work will be to make the cpu (which is already known and have some opensource code for it) to work and to connect all the buttons with the right signals
20:55:30mcuelenaereit's much more work then that
20:55:48shotofaddsmcuelenaere: the thinking here is that with a setting, RbUtil could be used to set up the default mode at first install (for blind users, etc)
20:55:52mcuelenaereand it isn't really the CPU, it's the SoC that needs work
20:56:06 Quit LambdaCalculus37 ("CGI:IRC 0.5.9 (2006/06/06)")
20:56:26shotofaddsand yes, I agree some plugins should use absolute point mode. but the amount of work involved to adapt all plugins might be painful..
20:56:29mcuelenaereshotofadds: sounds good, but I still would prefer some sort of on-the-fly switching next to that
20:56:42shotofaddsmcuelenaere: talk to Llorean ;-)
20:56:59mcuelenaereshotofadds: I ported some plugins to absolute point mode in the past (can't remember which/how many)
20:57:05gevaertsshotofadds: commit and let him revert if he wants to ;)
20:57:05saratoga_labfirst i'd like to see touch work well in core, then I'm sure people will be motivated to update plugins
20:57:20saratoga_labwe'll surely have many touch targets in the future
20:57:43shotofaddsyes, I think we'd all like to see that
20:58:23shotofaddsactually, ditch that idea of plugins using grid mode by defaut - all the plugins that use standard menus should use the user's preference...
20:58:32mcuelenaeredid Llorean state he didn't want 'on-the-fly' switching between the 2 modes ..?
20:58:45shotofaddsmcuelenaere: one minute, I'll find the log
20:58:56mcuelenaereshotofadds: I don't think it's a bad idea, a lot of plugins aren't adjusted to absolute point mode
20:59:16*mcuelenaere should also get the calibration screen integrated into the settings
20:59:34 Quit itcheg (" ajax IRC Client")
20:59:35MStoykovI've seen you have talked in the forum so I suppose you can tell what the actual status on the ZEN is and if it will be possible for a current JAVA developer who wants to come back to C to make some substantial work on the code
21:00:04mcuelenaereMStoykov: I am the one behind the Zen Vision:M, but this runs a different chipset then the ZEN
21:00:19mcuelenaerehowever a lot of the firmware structure is the same
21:01:12mcuelenaereMStoykov: have you any experience with low-level coding?
21:01:42shotofaddsmcuelenaere: there's various touchscreen discussions from onwards
21:01:54*mcuelenaere reads
21:02:06 Join bluebrother [0] (n=dom@rockbox/developer/bluebrother)
21:03:29*shotofadds thinks the key combo is probably still useful at least in the short term
21:03:52 Join Nico_P [50] (n=nicolas@rockbox/developer/NicoP)
21:04:58saratoga_labHow close are the Onda's to having a working FTL?
21:05:09MStoykovNot at all my C skills come from lessons in school and my biggest project in school was the backend (200lines of C(++)) for a small librarian software last year about this time
21:06:00mcuelenaeresaratoga_lab: not at all
21:06:01rasherQuick note: is live. Rockbox Utility 1.2 should be able to install themes from it. However, almost no themes have been uploaded yet. Proper announcement coming up.
21:06:02MStoykovI am usually told to be learning fast even do sometimes I disagree. So I hope it won't be anything that needs a master degree
21:06:11mcuelenaeresaratoga_lab: nothing has been done in that area
21:06:23*mcuelenaere isn't sure where to start
21:07:06mcuelenaereMStoykov: it's something that'll require a *lot* of time
21:08:30MStoykovI am finishing highschool in two months so I will have time
21:08:59rasherBagder: Could you update www/head.t from svn? (to get a themes link in the menu)
21:09:01MStoykovBut even now I pretty much sure I can make something good out of my two free days
21:09:07saratoga_labi don't think knowing c is that big a deal, its mostly just time and knowing low level hardware stuff
21:09:13*shotofadds wonders what determines whether a target should be included on the themes site
21:10:00MStoykovDoes some one can give some begging reading for the "low level hardware stuff"
21:10:16rasherSo, does the theme site announcement go in the Announcements forum or in "WPS and Appearance Customization"?
21:10:17MStoykovand probably some kind of emulation software
21:10:25 Quit AndyIL ()
21:10:55 Join arohtar [0] (
21:11:11mcuelenaereMStoykov: for this port, you'll also need to reverse engineering
21:11:24mcuelenaereI suggest you start with reading up on ARM
21:11:47mcuelenaeres/to/to do/
21:11:47gevaertsrasher: both? Maybe with targeted content?
21:11:56BigBambirasher: Well I'd say both, but given our rules maybe the former :)
21:12:37Unhelpfullooking at other open-source emulators, and how they connect their virtual hardware together, might be useful
21:12:41rashergevaerts: That's more work
21:13:06rasherAs for who to give admin access, I think for now "anyone with commit access who asks for it"?
21:13:11BigBambiWhat about admin-ing the theme site? Is it going to be an ad-hoc thing, or all committers, or...
21:13:32 Join XavierGr [0] (n=xavier@rockbox/staff/XavierGr)
21:13:35mcuelenaereBigBambi: AFAIK everyone with a higher-then-user status on the forum had access
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21:14:10BigBambimcuelenaere: I don't think that is the case anymore
21:14:40scorchehowever, at the moment we have to manually add admins, so...
21:15:10*mcuelenaere had a PHP function to integrate the forums with the theme site
21:15:22rashermcuelenaere: yeah, it's in the plans
21:17:36BigBambirasher: And yes, that seems reasonable
21:17:41DarkSpectrumif anyone is interested i found a ton of v1 Sansa c240's for only $20 ...
21:18:31MStoykovI've recently read that it is illegal to reverse engineer windows dlls( in the wine project) Isn't it the same with the firmware for the Mp3/4 players or you meant something else.
21:18:32gevaertsDarkSpectrum: are you sure they are v1?
21:18:46 Part tyfoo
21:18:58DarkSpectrumyep on the phone with em right now, it's a local store and i'm gonna go pick up a few
21:19:08mcuelenaereMStoykov: I think Creative is the only one who lets you agree an EULA upon downloading the firmware
21:19:15***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
21:19:18mcuelenaereand we're not RE any DLL's or other Windows stuff
21:19:22BigBambiMStoykov: Illegal where?
21:19:25DarkSpectrumlol i actually had them make sure it did not say "c240v2" on the back
21:19:26mcuelenaere(or at least not anymore)
21:19:44MTsaratoga_lab : I'm teaching myself dft, fft, mdct .. etc. currently to be good at them by the time I start converting the codec to fixed point. Because all my studies were about time-continuous signals, their fourier series and transforms. So, if you could point me to some good resources ?
21:19:47gevaertsDarkSpectrum: that doesn't actually prove anything. My e200v1 has v2 on the back
21:19:52scorcheMStoykov: the law varies with the country..
21:19:53BigBambiDarkSpectrum: That isn't a sure way of telling
21:19:54kugelDarkSpectrum: I'm not sure if we're even interested in v1s :)
21:20:01JdGordonshotofadds: the 3x3 thing should die imo :)
21:20:01BigBambiDarkSpectrum: the only way to be sure is by checking the original firmware version
21:20:02kugelI'm not, at least
21:20:05 Quit archivator ()
21:20:09MTsaratoga_lab : I'm currently studying from Oppenheim's (signals & systems)
21:20:30gevaertsDarkSpectrum: if it's a local store it's easy to check the firmware version of course...
21:20:32MStoykovI am in a country(Bulgaria) that the low is only on the paper so this was meant if it would be of any use for the project itself
21:21:15DarkSpectrumthe e260 and both the c240's i allready have do not have the v2 on the back and i've allready passed up buying others because they did have v2 on the back... now i wonder if they may have been v1's according to that
21:21:35DarkSpectrumtrue, if they let me pull it out and fire it up before buyinh
21:21:56gevaertsespecially with refurbished players they just put any available casing around it
21:22:40DarkSpectrumi didnt think about that, i thought they would try to use the right version number on the case because it would be a nightmare with their tech support and people calling for help
21:22:44 Join qcjn [0] (
21:22:49*mcuelenaere finally found the part where Llorean talks about button combo vs menu setting
21:23:33shotofaddsJdGordon: yeah, it's rather unintuitive although it is vaguely usable currently. I do think an alternate mode of some kind would be useful though (eg. the 4-sides-plus-select idea)
21:23:50shotofaddsmcuelenaere: I didn't say he said much ;)
21:23:58mcuelenaereindeed he didn't :)
21:24:09Unhelpfula (very simple) gesture engine might be nice to have
21:24:16shotofaddsindeed reading it back I don't see that as being totally against, either
21:24:23saratoga_labMT: I can dig up some online resouces for you later
21:24:32mcuelenaeredid this 'ashish' came back later?
21:25:09shotofaddsnot that I know of
21:25:12qcjnbeen reading on rockbox's page, is it real complicated to install...could i go back to the Sansa firmware (in my case)
21:25:13MTsaratoga_lab : that would be great. Thanks a lot.
21:25:39linuxstbqcjn: No, it's easy to install (and uninstall). The Rockbox manual describes all.
21:25:54mcuelenaereshotofadds: so getting back to your patch, I think you should commit it
21:26:00saratoga_labMT: I would say that you should have a basic idea of how the DFT/FFT differ from the continuous time fourier transform, but a detailed understanding of how they are implemented is not needed
21:26:17linuxstbqcjn: Which Sansa do you have though? Rockbox only works on some of them.
21:26:24saratoga_labyou won't actually have to implement them youself, but a basic understanding of what they are doing could be helpful when you have to debug
21:26:31qcjnok, since i'm using puppy in frugal right now that i ve install, shouldn'yt be to chineese for me
21:26:46qcjnwhait i ll look
21:27:10qcjne280 v2
21:27:13shotofaddsmcuelenaere: will do if no-one else comments. It'll stop JdGordon being forced to use grid-mode, too...
21:27:25rasher <−− announcement. Fellow mods, feel free to edit
21:27:52linuxstbqcjn: Then you will have to wait - Rockbox doesn't work on the e280v2 (but work is in progress to make it work). Before you ask, we've no idea when it will work - people just do this in their spare time.
21:27:59mcuelenaereshotofadds: what's the default setting?
21:28:13MTsaratoga_lab : ok good. anyway I'm studying dsp this year, so more knowledge wouldn't be harmful :)
21:28:33qcjnlinuxstb, but it does work with v1, cause my girlfirend got one
21:28:53shotofaddsmcuelenaere: it's still grid, as per sunday's discussion.
21:29:08qcjnlinuxstb, is there screen shots or video ??
21:29:33MStoykovdoes anyone here would be a mentor on the Summer of Code ?
21:29:36DarkSpectrumcool i have themes i've made that i'm willing to up :)
21:29:49linuxstbqcjn: Yes, it works on the v1.
21:29:56mcuelenaereMStoykov: I think there are already several, what project are you talking about?
21:30:15MStoykovrockbox on Creative ZEN
21:30:40mcuelenaeremost people aren't really for Rockbox ports as SoC projects
21:30:50mcuelenaerebecause they tend to take quite some time and have a high failure rate
21:31:03qcjnlinuxstb, thanks
21:32:23MStoykovI'm still not sure but I am mad enough and really would like to go back to the low level as I kind of skipped it. I have the hardware and will be glad if I can play doom in the bus
21:32:28 Quit arohtar (Client Quit)
21:32:42Erantmcuelenaere: Why is that? Because of the possibly reverse engineering involved or smth?
21:33:06 Join faemir [0] (
21:33:07mcuelenaeremostly because there's no documentation available which makes porting much more difficult
21:33:27mcuelenaereand because it requires a lot of work on a lot of different area's
21:33:30linuxstbErant: You can work for weeks on a new port and have nothing to show for it - that doesn't fit in with SoC
21:34:23scorchethough, i wouldnt mind a porting of a device we know is possible/has been done like the archopen devices, etc
21:34:24*linuxstb thinks that's possibly an exaggeration, but the point is that it's the hardest kind of work to plan for
21:34:45 Join webguest84 [0] (n=57a96361@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
21:35:01ErantOfcourse. And it's usually done in a team. Or is made a lot easier by doing it in a team
21:35:02webguest84hi @ all :)
21:35:16ErantDiverse skills et all
21:35:37DarkSpectrumrasher: should i include the relevent fonts in my themes zip?
21:36:02linuxstbDarkSpectrum: If they are not part of the Rockbox fonts download, then yes.
21:36:28mcuelenaereshotofadds: is there a need for calibration on the D2?
21:36:35mcuelenaereTS calibration*
21:36:38DarkSpectrumthey are part of it so i should not then, correct?
21:37:11rasherDarkSpectrum: Yes
21:37:46webguest84has anyone experiance with compiling rockbox?? I installed and configed cygwin today and everything seems to work so far, but I made a "makefile" and tried to compile but it takes forever without something happening :(
21:38:01linuxstbDarkSpectrum: "relevant fonts" (plural) ?
21:38:16webguest84just says generating dependencies :(
21:38:16DarkSpectrumwell single font
21:38:38Erantwebguest84: Eww. Cygwin.
21:39:00DarkSpectrumbut the font is part of the fonts download, just didnt know if i should include it in case someone doesnt download the fonts pack but does download the theme
21:39:14rasherwebguest84: That step can take a long time on cygwin. What kind of CPU do you have?
21:39:33Erantcygwin isn't exactly a direct substitute voor Linux, but ok.
21:39:43ErantDon't message me, please.
21:40:01*mcuelenaere suggest using the VMWare image instead of Cygwin
21:40:25webguest84is it really that much faster?
21:40:26rasherDarkSpectrum: in that case it's the user's fault. The problem is if you include the font, and the fontpack is later updated with a newer version, people might overwrite it with the current version if they install your theme
21:40:34*Erant suggests getting a real OS ;)
21:40:37rasherDarkSpectrum: plus it adds download size for little reason
21:40:38 Join saratoga_chrome [0] (n=9803c264@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
21:41:14webguest84ok, but how long should I try to wait?
21:41:34rasherwebguest84: Which hardware are you running it on.
21:41:49 Quit saratoga_lab ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
21:41:50rasherAnd how long have you waited.
21:42:05webguest84on the help page it says something about 5 minutes but i'm compiling for about 20 now -.- 1,8 ghz dualcore
21:42:13qcjnif a player is not on the manual,s webpage, then it 's not supported..cause i have an old Sansa m240, and i don't see it there..??
21:42:21linuxstbwebguest84: What's the last message you see on the screen?
21:42:33webguest84generating dependencies
21:42:37saratoga_chromeqcjn: theres a list of supported players on the front page
21:42:39linuxstbqcjn: Correct.
21:43:23ErantAh, speaking of hardware. There are three players listed as having USB Host support (in theory). Is that all of them? They're not exactly easy to locate, tbh.
21:44:03mcuelenaereErant: does this include not officially supported targets?
21:44:35gevaertsErant: you mean on the GSoC pages?
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21:44:51 Part MStoykov
21:45:37webguest84lets say it would work after an hour or so... would it be faster the next time?
21:45:43Erantgevaerts: Aye
21:46:12n1swebguest84: yes, unless you make clean in between
21:46:21webguest84ah ok
21:46:45gevaertsErant: ok. Some ports in progress may have host support, but I only listed the ones that can be considered stable.
21:47:25 Join ibseco [0] (
21:47:33n1swebguest84: if the dependency building is working, you rbuild dir should contain a file named make.dep_ that keeps growing
21:47:36tidalwav1So I have an e260 and I just upgraded to Rockbox v3.2, but the announcements on the front page seem to conflict: the USB Support announcement says USB support would be inculded in Rockbox 3.2, but the 3.2 announcement says that the USB stack isn't enabled for that release. So...I'm assuming to go by the 3.2 announcement? No USB?
21:47:56 Quit taylor_ ("Leaving")
21:47:58n1stidalwav1: correct
21:48:14saratoga_chromewe should probably fix that page
21:48:16saratoga_chromecan you link it?
21:48:30webguest84mhm its 2.06 mb now -.- doesn't look like its growing..
21:48:37linuxstbrasher: What are the "works with current build" and "works with 3.2" statements based on in the themes site?
21:48:46tidalwav1 it says on that page that USB isn't enabled, but this page says USB support would be in 3.2
21:49:02gevaertstidalwav1: the USB announcement had "assuming no unexpected problems crop up". Unfortunately that assumption was wrong
21:49:10tidalwav1yeah, figured that part out, heh
21:49:12n1swebguest84: it should stop growing at around 2 megs but then the compiling should start
21:49:38tidalwav1just out of curiosity, what cropped up?
21:49:49rasherlinuxstb: checkwps results
21:49:56rasherThe best we can do
21:49:56 Quit mcuelenaere ()
21:49:59 Join mcuelenaere [0] (n=mcuelena@rockbox/developer/mcuelenaere)
21:50:00webguest84looks like compiling started :D
21:50:08saratoga_chromethat doesn't say USB is enabled in 3.2
21:50:10linuxstbrasher: How often do you run checkwps (for the current build claim) ?
21:50:18webguest84but really slow
21:50:23rasherlinuxstb: manually (so far)
21:50:23n1swebguest84: some antivirus software can slow down cygwin quite a bit
21:50:51 Join fml [0] (n=4fd3d8ef@gateway/web/cgi-irc/
21:50:53webguest84ok i disabled that
21:50:57gevaertstidalwav1: charging problems on some players, and about a week before the release some people reported serious issues (disconnects), so we decided that it wasn't stable enough
21:51:01DarkSpectrumergh... ok this is prolly a dumb question but i'm trying to grab a screenchot from the simulator, can the battery level be frozen in the sim instead of it constantly moving?
21:51:15linuxstbrasher: What do you think of displaying the last tested revision next to each theme? e.g. "Works with current build (last tested r12345)"
21:51:24webguest84ok, i have a apps bitmap and lang folder already
21:51:27tidalwav1gevaerts: ah, k
21:51:31tidalwav1thanks for the info everyone
21:51:47webguest84so it works now
21:51:47rasherlinuxstb: the revision is the title="" for the "current version" text, so it should show up if you move your mouse over it
21:51:51webguest84thanks again!!!
21:52:01rasherlinuxstb: I don't think it's important enough to show always
21:52:31webguest84one last question... y do i have to zip it? can't i just copy it on my ipod like it is?
21:52:57linuxstbrasher: How about a ? icon or something next to the text? It's very well hidden at the moment...
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21:53:13Erantgevaerts: k, what's the best place to shop for one? eBay?
21:53:19rasherlinuxstb: is it really important? If we do it often enough that it's always recent?
21:53:23fmlHello. Is there any reason to not to include a fourth option to the quick screen (on targets where buttons would allow it)? I know there is a patch, but why isn't it included into SVN? My main concern is not even the number of options but the consistency of operating.
21:53:26BigBambirasher: How often is checkwps built?
21:53:43gevaertsErant: probably
21:53:49rasherBigBambi: also manually (for now, but easily crontabbable)
21:53:57Lloreanfml: Wouldn't three options always be more consistent than sometimes three, sometimes four?
21:54:00 Part tidalwav1
21:54:42linuxstbrasher: As a user, I would want to know how recently it was last checked. But maybe just a global statement at the top of each page saying when the themes were last checked for "current build" compatibility would be enough,
21:55:02linuxstbOr if you plan to do it (e.g.) nightly, then just say that.
21:55:11rasherOh, surely no less than nightly
21:56:22fmlLlorean: you mean consistency between platforms is more important than the consistency of operating (one button changes one "quick setting") within one platform?
21:56:47Lloreanfml: No, I mean "what consistency do you gain from having four directions"?
21:57:04Llorean"Down, left, and right each change a setting" sounds pretty consistent to me as long as it always works.
21:57:20fmlLlorean: see above: one button = change a different setting
21:57:38LloreanThat's not "added consistency" that's "added functionality"
21:57:51fmlLlorean: the inconsistency is that left and right change different settings, but up and down the same one
21:57:55 Quit evilnick (" ajax IRC Client")
21:58:05Lloreanfml: I'd say "up" changing it is a bug.
21:58:08pixelmafml: afaik it also has to do with flipped lcd (and buttons) and the original real quick mode to operate the screen on the recorders which was - hold some button as long as you want to see the screen and the operate it with left/right/down which would become up when lcd is flipped and this combo wasn't possible. There was a wish to restore this functionality which was lost with the invention of button actions
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21:58:21qcjnyes it seems simple enough..can it be set as some kind of dual choose sansa's firmware or Rockbox ???
21:58:23fmlLlorean: hence it would be adding consistency by adding functionality :-)
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21:58:32 Part akur
21:58:34Lloreanfml: The consistency could also be added by fixing the bug.
21:59:15fmlLlorean: yes, it could
21:59:16LloreanPersonally, I think making up "go back one value" instead of cycling values in the same direction as down could be more valuable.
21:59:54fmlpixelma: I guess there are more situations where we have to see whether the screen is flipped and swap up and down accordingly, right?
21:59:56LloreanIf you put an option with quite a few values in your quickscreen, and accidentally miss the one you want it can be quite frustrating. It'd make "center" ideal for long lists, while left/right are better for short ones, as opposed to just having four short ones.
21:59:57qcjnok, excuse me i found the answer
22:00:08pixelmaLlorean: wouldn't left/right be confusing then?
22:00:20Lloreanpixelma: Not any more than it is now.
22:00:47fmlLlorean: more valuable but more inconsistent. And it would cut off the possibility of adding the fourth option.
22:00:53pixelmafml: what do you want to tell me with this?
22:00:54Lloreanpixelma: Currently "Up" and "Down" do exactly the same thing. We'd just be making Up and Down cycle through the bottom option in opposite directions. For most people looking at the screen this would be more intuitive than current.
22:01:23shotofaddsmcuelenaere: there's no calibration function in the D2 OF, so it shouldn't be necessary in Rockbox. That said, the current empirical 'calibration' could use some adjustment...
22:01:24Lloreanfml: What four options would you use in this screen?
22:01:35 Quit yhuang (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
22:01:41*pixelma should probably stay out of quick screen discussion because of not using it
22:02:13Lloreanshotofadds: Just because the D2 of doesn't do it doesn't mean we couldn't improve from doing it though. It should probably at least be investigated.
22:02:25fmlLlorean: I don't know yet. My concern is inconsistency
22:03:04Lloreanfml: But you're making up inconsistency. It's not inconsistent with itself, it's inconsistent with other options that work different... many things by this standard are inconsistent.
22:03:23LloreanIt can be described in the manual, and it will always work the same every time you enter the screen - this is consistent.
22:03:38mcuelenaereshotofadds: what do you mean with the 'current empirical calibration'?
22:03:44shotofaddsLlorean: yeah, it might be good to have. I'm just saying the OF doesn't have a calibration feature, yet I've never heard a single person say the D2 touchscreen isn't accurate enough...
22:04:02fmlpixelma: I mean that we're intelligent enough to respect the flipped screen in some situations. We could do that in the quick screen as well, i.e. only allow one button (up or down) to change the "middle" setting
22:04:14shotofaddsmcuelenaere: there is a hard-coded adjustment factor in the touchscreen driver. that might be better done using a calibration screen..
22:04:19*mcuelenaere thinks this is one of those 'Rockbox is superior above the OF'-features
22:04:46fmlLlorean: yes, it's inconsistent with other buttons in that screen, i.e. in that context
22:04:58Lloreanfml: Yes, but that's silly.
22:05:10LloreanPlay is inconsistent with Up/Down in the list, because play takes you to another screen.
22:05:16LloreanButtons are allowed to do different types of things.
22:05:35fmlHe-he, the unsupported Gigabeats have most themes on the RB themes page :-)
22:05:37LloreanLeft/Right can cycle in a single direction, while Up/Down can actually cycle in opposite directions. It's allowed.
22:05:54pixelmaas far as I understood - it respects the flipped screen but one button combo was not possible and that shows when the screen is flipped or so. Note: I have never seen this in action
22:06:10mcuelenaereshotofadds: do you know of r20055?
22:06:15BigBambifml: Well, any 240x320 do
22:06:37LloreanThe Gigabeat F/X has been supported for ages. The S just got splashed over to.
22:06:37*shotofadds looks...
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22:08:31linuxstbWhy is the S on the themes site at all? Shouldn't it be consistent with the main part of the site?
22:08:42shotofaddsmcuelenaere: yeah, I did see it at the time but never asked you how i should be used...
22:08:58fmlLlorean: but "up" and "down" are closer to each other (e.g. on H120) than "play" hence I'd expect them to operate more in the same way that "play". On e200, down changes the option but up (which is PLAY as well) does it too.
22:09:27mcuelenaereshotofadds: hmm yes, well it needs a touchscreen calibration screen to be useful actually :)
22:09:36rasherlinuxstb: I don't know. If we keep unsupported targets off the theme site, themes will just accumulate elsewhere
22:09:57rasherFor ports as advanced as the Gigabeat S at least
22:10:15shotofaddsmcuelenaere: don't suppose you've start one...
22:10:16rasherIn this specific case it's of course not an issue since it's compatible with the other gigabeats, but in principle
22:10:27mcuelenaereshotofadds: calibrate() is an example of how I tested it:
22:10:30linuxstbrasher: I guess that's a point...
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22:10:50mcuelenaereshotofadds: but it needs adjusting to apps/ and I don't know how to save it as a setting
22:11:12Lloreanfml: So, if there's no option at the top of the screen, why would you expect up to do *anything* then?
22:11:22linuxstbrasher: But maybe that's a problem we don't need to solve until it happens - i.e. if we see themes for unsupported targets accumulating elsewhere, then make a decision about including them.
22:11:45Lloreanfml: I mean, it sounds like your view of "consistency" is "users should be able to guess what every single button does" which isn't really what that means.
22:11:59BigBambilinuxstb: could well be too late by then though if people are already using somewhere else
22:12:04rasherlinuxstb: Maybe. Mostly I just added the targets we have icons for. Didn't think it through too much
22:12:27fmlLlorean: no, I mean if the button wouldn't do anything that would be more consistent than what we have now
22:12:46rasherlinuxstb: The S is on the manuals download page as well btw
22:12:47Lloreanrasher, linuxstb: I think the Gigabeat S is kinda a special case since it's so very close to supported it almost made it in the release.
22:12:59shotofaddsmcuelenaere: I'm not really the best person to ask about adding new screens... although actually storing the settings is quite straightforward (eg. see fs#9129 again).
22:13:16mcuelenaereyes, adding one Int is straightforward
22:13:20linuxstbrasher: Another accident I think...
22:13:29mcuelenaerebut I'm not sure how to add an array of 5 ints..
22:13:37Lloreanfml: Consistent with the other buttons on the screen. Buttons that have another option preventing them from being bidirectional so are *visibly* a different case to anyone who looks at the screen.
22:13:51fmlLlorean: and BTW: if the user could guess what every button do −− that would mean we have a perfect user interface!
22:14:02linuxstbrasher: i.e. we want builds, but not links to them (apart from the wiki, where we link, saying it's in progress)
22:14:07Lloreanfml: Basically, you want consistency for consistency's sake, even though anyone looking at the screen can see they're different cases because there's no "up" option on the screen.
22:14:10linuxstb(manual builds)
22:14:26Bagderrasher: you mentioned www/head.t, but I see no edit. Did mean that I should add the menu option as well?
22:14:29fmlLlorean: I'm talking about the quick screen only now and about that particular issue
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22:15:02rasherBagder: I forgot to commit...
22:15:03Lloreanfml: That statement was about the quickscreen.
22:15:20rasherBagder: Done now
22:16:12fmlThe manual states (in the appendix B, WPS tags) that "The images must be in a rockbox compatible format (1 bit per pixel BMP)". Is this correct for color screens as well?
22:16:21Lloreanfml: And i don't recall any cases of users being confused by the quickscreen. I don't see why "consistency" is such an issue there if it's not a problem for users.
22:16:35shotofaddsmcuelenaere: I guess either 5 separate settings or a CUSTOM_SETTING?
22:16:50rasherLlorean: How do you feel about crossposting the theme site announcement to the WPS subforum? I imagine a good deal of users don't follow Announcements
22:16:57mcuelenaereI tried using a CUSTOM_SETTING but didn't came far
22:17:23linuxstbrasher: BTW, on the version of the themes site I committed, there were a few wiki links, which are no longer on your site. i.e. a link to "ThemeInstallation" and a link to "ThemeSubmission" (or similar). The idea was that the ThemeSubmission would explain how to package a theme, and at the bottom of that page have a link to the upload form on the themes site.
22:17:31 Quit bs66_ (Success)
22:17:36*mcuelenaere probably needs to start rewriting it instead of talking about it
22:17:43Lloreanrasher: How about create a thread called "Uploading Themes" which describes where the theme site is, and the conditions for uploading. Then, since I can't remember if you can sticky or not, I'll sticky it if you can't.
22:17:50LloreanSo it's a combination announcement and guidelines
22:17:56rasherAh, good idea
22:18:01fmlLlorean: what matters is the principle of the least surprise. And the UP button is a surprise IMO. Less surprise is IMO better even if WITH the suprise you get more functionality
22:18:08linuxstbLlorean: Shouldn't that just be a link to a wiki page?
22:18:18Lloreanrasher: And so it also means we aren't being hypocritical about our own cross-posting rules.
22:18:21rasherlinuxstb: The upload form has been made more verbose I think
22:18:29Lloreanlinuxstb: It could be a brief summary then a link to the upload page or the wiki page.
22:18:44Lloreanfml: By that standard we should remove 95% of Rockbox.
22:18:46bluebrotherwhy does the target shortname differ between rbutil and rockbox-info.txt in _some_ cases only?
22:18:47linuxstbrasher: Not really...
22:18:50Lloreanfml: We have a ton of functionality that is surprising.
22:19:09rasherlinuxstb: Alright. It has a link to the theme guidelines wikipage then.
22:19:19linuxstbrasher: But the idea was to force people to go through that ThemeGuidelines page in order to get to the upload form.
22:19:26rasherlinuxstb: That's not going to work.
22:19:28*bluebrother introduced a new bug in rbutil because of that :(
22:19:35kugelfml: I still want to add a forth item
22:19:45linuxstbrasher: Why not?
22:19:55fmlpixelma: you're the WPS guru. Could you comment on the BMP note in the manual?
22:20:02rasherlinuxstb: 50% will not find the upload form, and 49% will skip right to it. 1% will read ThemeGuidelines in full.
22:20:24BigBambifml, kugel: I'm not anti a fourth item, but I feel no need to dress it up as being for consistency
22:20:32linuxstbrasher: "50% will not find the upload form" will only be true if that wiki page is badly designed.
22:20:32DarkSpectrumawsome, i have 2 themes up for the C200 now :)
22:20:35fmlpixelma: what images must have the same size as the LCD? Only the backdrops?
22:20:41Lloreankugel: What four options would you put on the quickscreen because you use them so very often?
22:20:55rasherlinuxstb: We enforce a lot of it through technical means. I think that's a better solution than hassling the would-be uploader
22:21:06DarkSpectrumi have about 10 more to upload for the C & E i'll pack em up and send them a little later
22:21:09LloreanBigBambi: that's mostly my point as well. I think there's a better feature than "fourth item" but I think they should be argued on the merits of the features, not "consistency for consistency's sake"
22:21:19gevaertsDarkSpectrum: great! People have been complaining about the lack of c200 themes...
22:21:20kugelBigBambi: I want a forth item because I find the quickscreen very useful
22:21:27fmlBigBambi: I think it would add consistency too (myabe as a side effect)
22:21:28LloreanConsistency's only a point when there's not functionality to be lost.
22:21:35kugelLlorean: backlight, for example
22:21:49DarkSpectrumi love the c200, i have made a ton of themes for it, i use the c200 in my car the most
22:21:53kugelbacklight brightness, I mean
22:22:20BigBambikugel: yep, I didn't mean that you were claiming the consistency thing - I just included you as you just said something :)
22:22:24Lloreankugel: So you change backlight brightness, shuffle, repeat, and file view nearly every time you use your player?
22:22:29kugelit's configurable, I don't need to tell four fixed items now, I think
22:22:45BigBambikugel: You're fricking obsessed by backlights :)
22:22:52kugelLlorean: not file view, but rather crossfeed
22:23:03pixelmafml: backdrop has to be exactly the same size, other than that I'm not sure how the parser deals with other images bigger than the lcd but there is a data size limit for all bitmaps together
22:23:17DarkSpectrum −−−− tell me if you think the themees i just posted are worthy of my posting more of mine pleaes
22:23:21kugelBigBambi: sorry that I'm almost blinded by full brightness in the night, but don't see anyting at daylist with low brightness
22:23:32Lloreankugel: So you really change four+ settings nearly every time you pick up your player? Why don't you have a couple .cfg files so it's even faster then?
22:23:43kugelit's not faster
22:24:05LloreanTwo .cfg files in root is faster than cycling through the options on four quickscreen settings.
22:24:07linuxstbrasher: It's not hassling people - it will just be a couple of extra clicks. But I'll agree to disagree ;)
22:24:11fmlpixelma: but "1 bit per pixel BMP" is definitely wrong, right?
22:24:13BigBambikugel: no need to apologise, it was a joke....
22:24:17kugelit requires going through 3-4 menus, plus finding the correct cfg out of dozens
22:24:24LloreanWhat 3-4 menus?
22:24:27LloreanYou can click on them in the file browser.
22:24:38LloreanAnd why do you need dozens?
22:24:46pixelmaif you change more than one setting in one "go" then cfg files are faster
22:24:58pixelmafml: where exactly?
22:25:04BigBambirasher: could the RSS feed include what target a theme is for?
22:25:06rasherlinuxstb: It can easily be changed of course, just change the link at the bottom of the frontpage to go to the Wiki instead. If it turns out I'm alone in this, I'll happily do it
22:25:13rasherBigBambi: Good idea
22:25:13LloreanEven if you do need dozens, because you can only go in one direction through quickscreen options, as long as you know what file you need, it should still be faster.
22:25:19linuxstbrasher: But why is the upload link at the bottom of the page? At least on my monitor, I need to scroll down to spot it, and I wouldn't normally scroll down, as I see all the table without scrolling...
22:25:31DarkSpectrumrasher: could i get your comment please?
22:25:32Bagdersomething tells me there's a <br> missing ...
22:25:37kugelwhy do I need to explain myself for liking the quickscreen and it's flexibility anyway?
22:25:45rasherDarkSpectrum: They look fine. The more the merrier!
22:26:03rasherBagder: indeed. What a mess
22:26:03fmlLlorean: that's why I'd add the fourth option (or switch off the UP button) not because of functionality but because of consistency. I.e. My argument is not functionalyity but consistency of operating
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22:26:08Lloreankugel: If you want to propose a change for it, you need to justify that it's more useful than other proposed changes.
22:26:10scorcheDarkSpectrum: it is a public theme repository...upload whatever you wish as long as it complies with our submission guidelines
22:26:22DarkSpectrumjust wanna make sure what i think may look cool doesnt spam the site with what others would think is junk
22:26:30Lloreanfml: And added functionality is what we should be discussing since you want to sacrifice another functionality choice for it.
22:26:44Lloreanfml: Rockbox _cannot_ be 100% surprise free given the amount of options it offers. You know this.
22:26:52gevaertsDarkSpectrum: choice is good :)
22:26:57fmlpixelma: manual, appendix B, notes after the Images table
22:27:08kugelLlorean: I'm in favor of a forth item no matter of it's current state (may it be inconsitency or the lost cannot-have-the-quickscreen-only-up-while-pressing-the-entering-button)
22:27:46DarkSpectrumscorche: yeah thats the thing, i had to rename a ton of files and redo the wps on them 2 to meet the guidelines, hence why it's gonna be later tonight to upload my other ones, i have to edit them to meet the file nameing guidelines
22:28:17kugelLlorean: seriously, why quickscreen at all if you want to go for dozens of .cfg anyway?
22:28:28Lloreankugel: I said _for changing multiple options_
22:28:35LloreanI use the quickscreen for single options I change regularly.
22:28:42fmlLlorean: but in every given context, we should strive to be as consistent as possible. You know this too (a good rhetoric note :-)
22:28:42rasherlinuxstb: A good question. Certainly not the best place, I'll be the first to admit
22:28:43kugelso I do
22:28:55rasherlinuxstb: I'm open to suggestions (and svn commits)
22:28:58Lloreankugel: But you said you change four options every time you pick up the player. That's faster with .cfg
22:29:33Lloreanfml: But only when it doesn't come with a sacrifice of functionality.
22:29:40kugelI have just more than 3 options I change rather often, so the more items the better (for me, that is). I don't see anything wrong with it
22:29:55pixelmafml: yeah, that looks oooold and wrong now. The bitmap loader will scale to native depth on load, I only experienced non-working bitmaps when I accidentally had some compressed ones
22:30:07Lloreankugel: But "better for you" doesn't mean "better overall"
22:30:08rasherBagder: fixed now.
22:30:23Lloreankugel: Why is it better than having the middle option bidirectional so that longer options can be used easily?
22:30:24kugelso what's wrong with a forth item Llorean ?
22:30:43BigBambiDarkSpectrum: Well, whenever you get chance - the more the merrier
22:30:56kugelah I see, it's functionality for you to go in two directions for 1 option
22:31:21rasherWho's responsible for the menu in the forums? The theme site should be added..
22:31:22Bagderrasher: thanks, looks fine now
22:31:24linuxstbrasher: Simply move it to the top of the page. Maybe with a direct link to ThemeGuidelines as well. Maybe also add the sentence "All themes on this website can be downloaded and installed via the integrated themes browser in Rockbox Utility." - with Rockbox Utility a link to RockboxUtility
22:31:29Lloreankugel: Users have rarely asked for a fourth option, so it's clearly not a hot desire. Meanwhile having two directions with one-option in the middle decreases the amount of surprise, means the options number is the same cross-target, and allows longer options to be used.
22:31:49LloreanA decent list of benefits considering almost nobody even requests a fourth option, while people have often exclaimed surprise the middle isn't bidirectional
22:32:24DarkSpectrumspeeking of i want to make some more themes but am seriously lacking inspiration, any ideas?
22:32:47fmlpixelma: I'll change the note then to just "it must be a BMP"
22:33:14Bagderrasher: nice job on the themes site, good to see it in public!
22:33:21kugelLlorean: they probably only exclaimed it because the up/down one changed the 1 option anyway, just not bidirectional
22:33:26rasherlinuxstb: will do
22:33:50soaprasher: On the idea of having WPS authors _only_ (?) upload themes...
22:33:52Lloreankugel: Exactly. So we meet the user's existing expectations of the screen, and gain functionality, and consistency with user expectations.
22:33:59kugelif up wouldn't have done anything in the past, nobody would have demanded biderctional, but rather a fourth item, I think
22:34:06linuxstbrasher: Thanks. And what Bagder said goes from me - sorry if I'm coming across as being negative....
22:34:20Lloreankugel: People try to press up to change the value, not just randomly.
22:34:29soapSo I take a theme from the Gallery (which is supposedly permissively licensed) and modify one tiny thing. I then "release" it unto the new theme site...
22:34:37LloreanThey wouldn't even find it's not bidirectional if they didn't *try* to use it that way, on most targets
22:34:45LloreanOnly on a small selection would "Up" be the button you might think exits.
22:34:58rasherlinuxstb: not at all -"> look okay?
22:34:58kugelwhatever, the current situation is bad, imo. It needs at least be clearer that up does something
22:35:10soapI think you can see where this is going, what is the reason for not wholesale moving themes? I think my little loophole points ot the folly of this rule.
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22:35:33linuxstbsoap: IMO, the reason is to get a clear audit trail of the history of themes.
22:35:35kugelbut I don't want to step into the quickscreen business again, actually. It's too controversial imo, for little changes afterall
22:35:37fmlLlorean: I'd agree with you except one thing: IMO, it INcreases the amount of surprise rather than DEcreases it. At a first glance at least. After you've pressed the buttons a couple of times you understand how they work
22:35:46linuxstbi.e. if the original copyright holder is the first to upload it, then all is clear.
22:35:59kugelI'm saying that *I* want a fourth item. the patch is there. do what you want
22:36:36soaplinuxstb: does that mean that I must only submit themes which are either: A-made fresh of whole cloth or B-derivitive works of themes already found on the new theme site?
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22:37:05kugelquickscreen probably is never going to change. everyone wants his own version
22:37:05soapor C-Ones which I can _prove_ meet the expectation of the attached license?
22:37:09Lloreanfml: And increasing surprise is okay if it's pleasant surprise.
22:37:09linuxstbsoap: No, I wouldn't say that you _can't_ upload other peoples' themes, just that it would be nicer if the original author did it.
22:37:34linuxstbsoap: i.e. wait a bit and see what happens...
22:37:43Lloreanfml: And I disagree that it increases. People are surprised that it *doesn't* do what I've suggested it should do regularly. If it starts doing it, we will be meeting expectations. This *decreases* surprise.
22:37:45kugelLlorean: err...
22:37:46rasherI think at some point "we" should move the last properly licensed themes over from the WpsGalleries. But it'd be nicer to have the authors do it
22:38:07Lloreankugel: "err..." contains no meaningful content. I cannot read your mind.
22:38:10rasherWhich reminds me that we should modify the wpsgallery pages
22:38:14linuxstbrasher: Exactly. Maybe prior to 3.3 would be a good cut-off to close the wiki galleries.
22:38:16rasherBut I'm not quite sure in which way
22:38:29soap;) Ok - I fully understand the desire to have a documented audit trail. I think that is a great thing. It is something I have spent a lot of time thinking about - and while it is a worthy goal I never did come up with a way to make it _enforceable_.
22:38:42kugelLlorean: "And increasing surprise is okay if it's pleasant surprise." - I disagree. We're talking about unexpected behavior here
22:38:46Lloreanlinuxstb, rasher: Obviously we should simply break WPS compatibility, and retire all the wiki pages at that time since they all need updates anyway.
22:39:02Lloreankugel: About 2/3 of Rockbox button presses are unexpected behaviour.
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22:39:11kugeland it's not a pleasent surprise since you still don't know what up does exactly after pressung up for the first time
22:39:24Lloreankugel: Should we get rid of the context menu entirely? The quickscreen surely also isn't implied so we should just cut it if we want to get rid of positive surprises on button presses.
22:39:28soapShould we only move ones which as a whole feels comfortable "signing off on" (in an unofficial manner) as appearing to be clearly licensed?
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22:39:59Lloreankugel: And as I said, *I* don't think it's a surprise, since people keep being astonished that we _don't_ do it already.
22:40:06kugelLlorean: opening the context menu doesn't have any effect. pressing an button in the quickscreen has an immediate effect
22:40:10linuxstbsoap: Are you talking about now, or when we think we've given the original authors time to upload?
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22:40:21soapat the end-game, linuxstb.
22:40:22kugelwhich you don't notice if you look at the upper part of the screen because you pressed up
22:40:50Lloreankugel: You're implying we wouldn't put visual indication the option is bidirectional.
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22:40:56linuxstbsoap: I don't know - I guess we just see what's left, and make a judgement.
22:40:57DarkSpectrumthats a good question, why doesnt up exit the quickscreen?
22:41:10Lloreankugel: Assuming it would be badly implemented, and using that as an excuse not to do it, isn't good.
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22:41:51kugelthere is no indication that it is bidirectional
22:41:59LloreanIt's not bidirectional
22:42:05kugelit is
22:42:08LloreanNo, it's not.
22:42:13LloreanUnless you've fixed that.
22:42:15rasherlinuxstb: did you see my changes on my local theme site?
22:42:21kugelbluebrother: fixed it a while ago
22:42:22LloreanUp and Down do the same thing.
22:42:29LloreanAh, well then we should add indication
22:42:31LloreanProblem solved
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22:43:04LloreanIndication creates less surprise, and doesn't remove functionality that already exists.
22:43:11kugelthat's what I'm saying. Even if I want a fourth item (which I probably won't get), the current situation is just the worst
22:43:14TBOL3Interesting thing has happened to me, it's not too big of a problem, but I can no longer connect to my computer in the OF, but only in Rockbox. :)
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22:43:52linuxstbrasher: Just looking now.... I would replace "click Here to submit it for inclusion." with "upload your theme". (i.e. make the link the title of the page).
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22:44:03qcjnwith the multiplication of those cheap mp4 player s on the market, are there some people who as manage to install rockbox on them ??
22:44:07kugelwe've already had this topic right before 3.1, you remember? You admitted that there's a bug about up/down, you seem to have forgotten that
22:44:14Lloreankugel: I haven't seen anyone complain about being surprised in that screen for a while, at least...
22:44:25LloreanWhat bug?
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22:44:46kugelthat there's absolutely no indication that up does anything
22:44:49BigBambiqcjn: No, Rockbox has to be adapted for the specific hardware
22:45:01qcjnBigBambi, thanks
22:45:13rasherlinuxstb: Like so? (updated)
22:45:21linuxstbrasher: Maybe also add an "Downloading themes" heading (directly underneath the main "Rockbox themes" title), remove the sentence "Identify your player to download themes for it.", and then add a second paragraph saying "You can also download themes manually by clicking on the picture of your player in the table below."
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22:45:48linuxstbrasher: Yes, just like that ;)
22:46:13qcjnThanks BigBambi & linuxstb , i 'll surely be getting back here soon...Have a nice day
22:46:18Lloreankugel: Right, this is not good. But at the same time, we're at least not getting bug reports, or people in the forums surprised at the functionality and complaining.
22:46:35*kugel still wants the theme site target selection to be consitent with the other download sites
22:47:00rasherlinuxstb: And this?
22:47:10fmlLlorean: the up/down buttons chnage the option in different directions, so it's sort of "bidirectional" (if that's what it means in this context)
22:47:14kugelis there anything that speaks against it?
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22:47:30rasherkugel: not as such
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22:47:57linuxstbrasher: Yes, looks good to me. Commit!
22:47:58rasherkugel: It seems reasonable
22:48:04Lloreanfml: Yes, I wasn't aware this had been fixed. So it just needs visual identification now.
22:48:38fmlLlorean: of course, the proponents of not adding a fourth option have a good argument which is the current status quo. More energy should be put in to persuade people to do something thatn to leave everything as it is (and I'm not stating it's bad)
22:48:39kugelit needs an indication no matter of the bidirectional-ness
22:49:59fmlLlorean: the drawback of the "bidirectional" up/down buttons is that users (me at least) would then expect the same from the left/right buttons. And try it. And erroneously change wrong options.
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22:50:32BagderLlorean: you in charge of updating the menu in the forums? (to get the themes option)
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22:51:02*kugel still things changing 1 setting in two ways is greater waste of space if you could have a fourth option
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22:51:07kugelthinks too
22:51:16scorcheBagder: i will...
22:51:29linuxstbrasher: Hmm, I'm now thinking the table itself needs a heading - it's now appearing under the "upload your own theme" heading...
22:51:52linuxstbrasher: Maybe swap the two sections (so upload is first, download is second) ?
22:52:00Bagderrasher: a nice feature for the future would be lists of "recently added" and "most downloaded" etc
22:52:14Lloreanfml: Why would you expect it from left/right, given the information on the screen?
22:52:21Lloreanfml: How could that POSSIBLY seem like the right choice to try?
22:52:43rasherBagder: most downloaded is troublesome, since we link directly to the zips
22:52:59Bagderrasher: well, you could bounce
22:53:06fmlLlorean: because everything is so similar. It's on one screen, very symmetric, etc.
22:53:06rasherNot a fan of it :\
22:53:25Lloreanfml: So you can't see that there are options on both the left and right?
22:53:31linuxstbrasher: Then use the Apache logs?
22:53:33kugelfml: I don't actually think that's happening
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22:54:03LloreanIt sounds horribly unrealistic to me. "Oh, there are options on left and right and down. Down works on down and up. Surely the left option works on both left and right, and the right option also works on both left and right."
22:54:05LloreanWho thinks like that?
22:55:03rasherlinuxstb: that should work, yes.
22:55:14fmlLlorean: I can see. But even though I know how it works I've been in a situation that I wanted to change the "left" option back with the right button. So maybe the problem is not even the up/down but left/right: that THEY are not "bidirectional"
22:55:49kugelLlorean: we could also have it like this: make it possible to (I actually think it is possible already) to map the same option to multple keys
22:56:17Lloreankugel: both keys would still go "forward" through the option.
22:56:19kugelthat would make 4 items possible, as well as a bidirectional two way changing for 1 long setting
22:56:28linuxstbBagder: Have you had a chance to do anything about getting access to the apache logs from the download servers?
22:56:46kugelLlorean: I mean, with bidirectionality
22:56:53Bagderno, but I've been reminded of it with all this release stuff going on!
22:57:11Lloreankugel: You'd have to have a lot of custom cases in. Which one is "forward" and "backward" when an option is on right and down?
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22:57:29kugelthe default would be having a single option for up/down to show that possiblity
22:57:58kugelLlorean: just use the existing mechanism for the bidirectionality?
22:58:13LloreanWhat existing mechanism?
22:58:27LloreanBoth "down" and "right" presses go to "next item in the settings list"
22:58:34LloreanFor the option on those buttons.
22:58:38rasherkugel:"> ?
22:58:55kugelup/down has bidirectional, shall I repeat it once more?
22:59:28kugelrasher: what changed?
22:59:35rasherkugel: the table!
22:59:38Lloreankugel: You're missing my point entirely.
22:59:47kugelrasher: uhm, wait
22:59:49Lloreankugel: I know up/down is bidirectional.
23:00:10kugelrasher: not for me, tried reloading
23:00:10Lloreankugel: But what if someone puts the same option on DOWN and RIGHT. Neither of those is opposite another.
23:00:17kugeleither a cache issue, or a different bug
23:00:18DarkSpectrumrasher: i think it looks better ;P
23:00:22LloreanDo you attempt to make it bidirectional, or surprise them by simply being duplicates?
23:00:25*gevaerts (at least half-seriously) proposes #rockbox-fight-it-out for people who like endless debates, and who can briefly report here when a conclusion has been reached
23:00:26kugelLlorean: then adapt it for left right
23:00:27rasherkugel: this is not the theme site, but my home copy
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23:00:41kugelipods are still in the very first row
23:00:46Lloreankugel: DOWN and RIGHT. Seriously, are you just not reading the whole sentence?
23:00:48linuxstbrasher: s/below\./below:/ ?
23:00:53rasherkugel: oh, I thought you meant the layout!
23:01:09rasherBut that's because I labelled the targets consistently and the main site does not
23:01:22kugeldown and right go in the "positive" direction, which is whatever in settings_list.c is used
23:01:31fmlkugel: I'm with Llorean here. Up down change _the same_ one option. They are not just (ba accident or not) assigned the same option. Brr... I hope it's clear what I wanted to say
23:01:32kugelleft and up in the other one
23:01:33Lloreankugel: So up and left *always* go negative?
23:01:44Lloreankugel: That means single settings would behave differently depending on which button they're assigned.
23:02:01kugelindeed, I don't the anything wrong with it
23:02:02LloreanThis is even worse, in my opinion.
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23:02:19kugelonly if you regulary swap the options
23:02:25LloreanNobody will expect that behaviour, and people who've learned the existing quickscreen will find it very problematic to use for a while.
23:02:37kugelwho would do that? That would mean getting used to his/her own customized quickscreen again and again
23:03:42Lloreankugel: So you basically propose to break the existing left function for everybody who's been used to the quickscreen for possibly half a decade now?
23:03:46rasherlinuxstb: yeah. So, do you think I should s/Apple // to fit in with the main site?
23:03:46kugelin the quickscreen, you just toggle until you reached the setting anyway
23:04:11kugelLlorean: yes, i surely want to *break*
23:04:25kugelseriously. I have no fun anymore. Your quickscreen is perfect. I'm out
23:05:06linuxstbrasher: Yes, I think all names should be identical. So no Fxx/Xxx/Sxx either. And the main download pages don't follow the Ipod convention...
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23:05:11fmlLlorean: he-he, letting the left and up buttons go "back" through the list might be not a bad idea at all since it's sort of intuitive. But it would change the current functionality. Hmmm...
23:05:15kugelI'm just trying to find a compromise. but for you I'm still breaking anything
23:05:21LloreanOne option would simply be to allow "unsetting" quickscreen options somehow. The ability to remove top/left/right/bottom, and if one is removed, the opposite one becomes bidirectional.
23:05:27scorcheBagder: done
23:05:51LloreanThen you could have four, three, or two with the functionality you want.
23:05:53kugelfml: yea, improve functionality is bad
23:05:53 Quit perrikwp (Client Quit)
23:06:17Lloreankugel: It doesn't improve *anything* for people used to the old quickscreen. It makes it harder to use since they need to develop new habits.
23:06:26kugelit doesn't???
23:06:33LloreanFor people used to the old quickscreen.
23:06:37pixelmaI can imagine that the origanal way to navigate the quick screen was less confusing even with the same method of cycling through the options
23:06:42kugelit gives a fourth item. or bidirectionality for left/right too
23:06:49kugelthat's a good deal extra functionality
23:06:57Lloreankugel: For people who don't want to use the old one, yes. It breaks things for people who DO though
23:07:25Lloreankugel: Why not comment on my alternative suggestion which adds all the functionality YOU want, plus doesn't break things for others, rather than continuing to defend one that has negative bits?
23:07:35kugeljust because the left may change the direction you toggle through the items makes it a NODO?
23:07:41LloreanI didn't say it's a NODO
23:07:44LloreanAnd you know it
23:07:46kugelpeople get used to it. and love the extras
23:07:48LloreanI just said it's a bad side effect
23:07:48fmlThe possibility to throw one of the right/left options and get bidirectionality instead would be good
23:07:55Lloreankugel: Seriously, what's wrong with my idea?
23:08:06LloreanWhy's yours better than mine, at this point?
23:08:19Lloreanfml: That's what I suggested, yes.
23:08:55Lloreankugel: I'm kinda thinking you're arguing for the sake or arguing, rather than actually caring about the actual features you want.
23:09:02fmlLlorean: yes. Then we could have four options, and the current situation would be just a special case (with one of the up/down options thrown away)
23:09:15kugelLlorean: that sounds good too
23:09:40Lloreanfml: Exactly. The current screen works as it always did, and people have even more flexibility in how they use it. For example, I know some people would just prefer a bidirectional Bass and Treble as their two options.
23:09:45LloreanThat's oft requested.
23:09:48fmlSo kugel could have the four options and I'd rather have just two :-)
23:09:56kugela good deal more complicated to implement though, I think. I don't really it's that hard to get used to swapped directions for the left button only
23:10:15Lloreankugel: More complicated to implement, but _doesn't remove the existing behaviour_
23:10:18LloreanThat's pretty important.
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23:10:31fml kugel: I like the last proposol of Llorean much better
23:10:56kugelI can live with it very well too
23:10:57fmlAnd I don't tnink it will be much more complicated to implement
23:11:13kugelbut I have no idea how to implement, actually
23:11:56fmlkugel: that's another question. But the idea is first, then the implementation.
23:13:06fmlYes, I definitely like the idea. I might even give it a try when I'll have time.
23:13:12*gevaerts reads Llorean's idea and screams configurable buttons
23:13:20Bagderrasher: I'd like to propose an "upload" link on the page where you browse themes for a particular target as well
23:13:27kugelbtw, I find it still frustrating and inconsistent that power leaves the quickscreen on the e200
23:13:36Bagderposssibly with that target pre-selected
23:13:59Lloreangevaerts: It's already a configurable screen. All we'd be doing is adding the option to actually *remove* instead of simply *replace*
23:14:03fmlkugel: how would you leave it? With SELECT?
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23:14:40kugelsame for ipods, even if I don't own one
23:14:47fml I wouldn't be against it, I think.
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23:15:43amiconnThe quickscreen should always be exitable with the same button that enters it.
23:16:03gevaertsLlorean: I like the idea of removing items, but I'm really not sure about using the now-unused button for something else. Your fingers get used to that button, and then you add another item to the screen...
23:16:06Lloreanamiconn: Already not possible on several targets.
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23:16:34rasherBagder: should be reasonably easy
23:16:54Lloreangevaerts: Well, you can already make the buttons do something else, though.
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23:17:02kugelrasher: so, you keep the layout?
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23:18:12gevaertsLlorean: I mean, you add an item, and suddenly this key you used to change a totally unrelated item doesn't work anymore. That can be pretty annoying
23:18:37rasherkugel: patience
23:18:50Lloreangevaerts: I suppose, but you could only add an item to "up" right now, the existing three directions are already used.
23:19:13LloreanI think it's reasonable that someone can infer adding an item to the up button removes the ability of the up button to cycle the other direction for the down option
23:19:18gevaertsrasher: the top <link> in your rss feed is broken
23:19:21***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
23:19:32kugelgevaerts: nothing would change if you add an item
23:20:03kugelI'd think the direction on the opposite site would change due to adding something
23:20:11*gevaerts may have totally misunderstood Llorean's proposal
23:20:24gevaertskugel: yes. That's my point
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23:20:53Lloreangevaerts: The screen has three options right now. Two unidirectional (left/right) and one bidirectional (up/down)
23:20:54kugelthat would require changing the direction on disk I think
23:21:07LloreanIf you add a fourth, then your "down" option would become unidirectional and your new up option also would be
23:21:13LloreanIf you replaced an existing option instead, nothing would change
23:21:23LloreanIf you removed either left or right, the remaining one would become bidirectional
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23:21:58Lloreangevaerts: Oh, you mean "if pressing right normally cycled forward, then you removed left, right now cycles backward and left cycles forward"?
23:22:07gevaertsLlorean: yes
23:22:12LloreanEr, reverse all directions in that, but yeah.
23:22:42Lloreangevaerts: That's *only* a problem if they remove "right" or if they add Up *and* remove down.
23:23:07LloreanMaybe we should only add the option to remove left and remove / add up
23:23:08*kugel can think of a lot of complications with Llorean proposal
23:23:15LloreanThis gives the full functionality without ever having directions switch
23:23:44kugelfixed directions would require getting used to it once (and I expect a small learning courve) and an easy implementation without nasty complications
23:23:58gevaertsI think "left" should only ever touch the "left" option, and the same for the other three buttons
23:24:24Lloreangevaerts: There's not a top button. And for many options, bidirectional is nearly necessary to use them effectively (bass/treble being core examples)
23:24:31kugeloh, and getting used to it even only applies to the left button
23:24:36LloreanOnce you've added too much, it's too late to go back without a full scycle.
23:24:42gevaertsThat would mean getting used to the "up" option if/when it gets added, bit after that you're done. No changes anymore, whatever you do
23:24:44kugelwhere the default is a bool now, where the direction doesn't even matter
23:25:19Lloreangevaerts: Adding the up option means removing the only existing bidirectional option people have access to.
23:25:31Lloreangevaerts: Up/down is already bidirectional.
23:25:57Lloreangevaerts: Adding up will be, for people who don't have Four needed quickscreen options, a loss of functionality.
23:26:20 Quit bmbl ("Woah!")
23:26:28LloreanAnd adding a duplicate item to simulate a bidirectional setup doesn't seem like it should be "easier" for people to understand, than removing one.
23:26:55Lloreanhonestly, under the hood they could be nearly identical. If you "remove" an item, it just shows the duplicate in the other slot.
23:26:58kugeladding seems more intuitive to me
23:27:17Lloreankugel: Neither is intuitive.
23:27:34LloreanOtherwise people would already be asking "why can't I do it, it seems like it should work"
23:27:35*gevaerts thinks that the current four-direction quickscreen is not suited for many-values options like bass/treble/volume, regardless of the tweaking you do
23:27:46Lloreangevaerts: It's suitable for having *one* of those options in it.
23:27:48rasherBagder: would it be okay if that link is at the bottom? It's not really the primary way of getting to the upload form
23:28:06Lloreangevaerts: And two if we allow making them both bidirectional, you just have to remembe "bass is up/down, treble is left/right"
23:28:11LloreanNot difficult
23:28:16gevaertsLlorean: yes. By accident
23:28:44gevaertsLlorean: a fixed two-bidirectional-controls screen is fine, a variable one isn't IMHO
23:29:15Lloreangevaerts: Why is variable bad?
23:29:57gevaertsBecause people get used to "right means more bass", then add setting to the right, and it changes meaning
23:30:15Lloreangevaerts: If people change the setting on the right themselves it will always change meaning...
23:30:21gevaertsThey *don't* touch the bass setting *at all*, and it now works differently
23:30:25LloreanBy that argument the quickscreen should lose its existing configurability
23:30:30rasherBagder: done
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23:30:58Bagdercool, I like it
23:31:07rasherBagder: how on earth are the targets sorted on eg. the current build list?
23:31:10gevaertsLlorean: why? Right now if you change a single item, the two others keep working exactly the same. With your proposal they don't
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23:31:55TBOL3If I might be allowed to throw in my $.2, I would think that you should either have two bidirectional settings (up/down) (right/left), or have four options, one for each direction. Also, if it's possible, select should get you out of the screen.
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23:32:04Lloreangevaerts: With my proposal they don't, but it's still the result of an explicit user action. And for left/right they had to make it bidirectional first by user action. Surely it's not a stretch to expect them to understand that undoing that change will reverse the behaviour.
23:32:28rasherBagder: ah, forcefully!
23:32:45Lloreangevaerts: The only way to avoid loss of functionality, and no added user confusion, then is to not change the screen.
23:33:24gevaertsLlorean: people will remove an option they don't use anyway (say the default right one), get used to the keys, find an option they use often, remember that the quickscreen is configurable, and change it
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23:33:34webguest38hat is the best way to get a port made
23:33:41rasherBagder, linuxstb, kugel: Is it worth the hassle to sort manually to follow the other targets selection pages?
23:33:44rasherwebguest38: do it yourself
23:34:07Lloreangevaerts: So basically, we need to make it impossible to shoot yourself in the foot?
23:34:09Bagderrasher: I don't think the order is that important
23:34:15gevaertsLlorean: either that or rethink the entire screen
23:34:22linuxstbrasher: Yes, I think so. That same table appears in a few other places on the site, so it would be nice for the themes site to display them in the same order.
23:34:30BigBambiwebguest38: Read and get going
23:34:38linuxstbi.e. users get to know where their players are.
23:34:48rasherlinuxstb: but the target list isn't consistent..
23:34:57Lloreangevaerts: I'm not sure rethinking the entire screen is particularly feasible at this time. Personally, my preference has always been to replace it with a shortcut to your config folder. :-P
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23:35:01LloreanInfinite flexibility
23:35:05rasherlinuxstb: It doesn't make sense to add the ramsize variants
23:35:31kugelLlorean: where's the loss of functionality
23:35:33linuxstbIt makes sense from a consistency point of view.
23:35:53linuxstbBut I guess the manual page is already different...
23:36:06rasherlinuxstb: because it doesn't make sense there either
23:36:07kugelI think you exagerrate the confusing by reversing the direction of left only, too
23:36:13gevaertsLlorean: maybe only allow fixed-list options if there's an option on the other side would be a good compromise?
23:36:39Lloreangevaerts: I'm not sure what you mean by that.
23:36:46Lloreankugel: For which proposal?
23:36:47webguest38ok any one have a pcb scan of a sony nwz-e436f
23:36:52linuxstbrasher: Yes, I'm just realising that... ;)
23:37:05linuxstbBagder: There is no themes link on the manual download page...
23:37:28rasherlinuxstb: I don't think it's important it's in the same exact spot. People probably go by the picture anyway
23:38:14linuxstbAnd most people will probably just use rbutil anyway...
23:38:23gevaertsLlorean: if you want two options in a direction, they can't be things like volume or bass that have a long list of values
23:38:24Lloreankugel: Yours simply means people need to relearn existing behaviour because their existing quickscreen no longer works how it's supposed to. Through no action of their own. At least in the cases gevaerts is objecting to it's changing because they changed something, even if they don't realize it
23:39:05Lloreankugel: It's changing an existing keymap, basically. It's something that shouldn't be done without _very_ good reason.
23:39:26rasherLlorean: can you change the forum html? If so, please add <br><img width=16 height=16 src='' align='top'> <a class="menulink" href="index.php">themes</a> after the "extras" link
23:39:27Lloreangevaerts: I'm not quite sure I understand still, honestly.
23:39:31kugelkeeping it simple isn't a good reason, I guess?
23:39:47Lloreankugel: Keeping it simple would be as simple as not changing the screen.
23:39:59*gevaerts tries inverting the case
23:40:14LambdaCalculus37webguest38: Yes. You. Read the link BigBambi gave you, open up your player, and make a scan.
23:40:15Lloreanrasher: On it.
23:40:37kugelreally, it only changes for the left button, and avoids many complications (like saving the directions to disk, adding a load of extra settings to unset buttons, the algorithm itself, and more)
23:40:55Lloreanrasher: It looks like it's already there.
23:40:59BigBambirasher, Llorean: Hasn't scorche already added the themes link?
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23:41:09mcuelenaereshouldn't the themes note on RockboxUtility get removed?
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23:41:20flyback* flyback thinks he fatally killed off his sansa today slamming it against the floor
23:41:20rasherBigBambi: looks like it!
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23:41:25gevaertsLlorean: if you have a many-valued option like volume on left, you can't put anything on right. If you have an on-off option on left, you can add other on-off options on right (on-off can also mean things like "show files" that have a number of values that you can easily cycle through).
23:41:29flybackoh well the screen was CANUCKED anyways
23:41:31Lloreankugel: And keeping it simple is still as simple as not changing the screen, which adds a good mix of functionality.
23:41:31TBOL3mcueleneare: So themes works on the rockbox utility again?
23:41:38flybackand doesn't look like you guys will ever finsh the m200 port
23:41:46rashermcuelenaere: certainly. And something should be done about the WpsGallery pages as well
23:41:49gevaertsIt's still "bad" according to my earlier reasoning, but at least pre-existing options remain usable
23:41:52mcuelenaereTBOL3: yeah, except for the beta warning
23:41:56Lloreangevaerts: What about 3/4 value options like repeat and shuffle. Maybe if something has integer values or something?
23:41:58kugelLlorean: very good argument
23:42:12kugellet's freeze rockbox now, forever, to keep everything simple
23:42:21gevaertsLlorean: yes. on-off is a bit too restricted. let's call it "cycleable"
23:42:24LloreanThe screen currently offers two unidirectional and one bidirectional option.
23:42:46Lloreangevaerts: I could deal with that. A little more complex code-wise still, but it means the screen won't catch people by surprise as much.
23:42:48 Quit LambdaCalculus37 ("Fwump")
23:42:59linuxstbmcuelenaere: I would have kept a reference to the themes site being new, and that users might want to also look at the WpsGallery for a larger choice of themes.
23:43:09*mcuelenaere edits
23:43:19Lloreankugel: You're arguing "simplicity" as a reason to change the keymap. I'm just saying simplicity can be achieved in a way that doesn't require changing the keymap.
23:43:19webguest38if I take it apart it will void the warranty wont it
23:43:23TBOL3mcueleneare: Ok then, it probibly should get removed.
23:43:35Lloreankugel: You're the one blowing things over the top. Such arguments don't make me more apt to listen to your actually realistic ones.
23:43:44kugelYour suggestion seems far away from simplicity to me
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23:44:12Lloreankugel: I'm not the one arguing in favour of simplicity.
23:44:28LloreanSome things in Rockbox aren't simple. Note the equalizer for example.
23:44:52LloreanSince we already have a simple solution, I was offering a solution with the ability to make the screen meet both alternate sets of needs (two bidirectional, four unidirectional)
23:45:02LloreanWithout harming those happy with the existing one
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