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#rockbox log for 2009-03-29

00:00:02saratogai think thats pretty typical, that way you don't make each codec specific to one container [though in rockbox each codec is specific to a container anyway]
00:01:54MTI see .. by the way, I won't be able to work on the demuxer till ~10th of april because of my mid-terms :(
00:02:41MTI told linuxstb. Just thought I should tell you too.
00:02:48saratogaMT: thats fine, i don't think the project is meant to begin until may anyway
00:02:52scorcheis that in your application?
00:03:16saratogawere you working on this before you became interested in GSOC?
00:03:52scorcheMT: accepted student proposals are listed on the 20th, so... ;)
00:04:33MTscorche : no I didn't include this in the application, because the plan I wrote there was meant to start on May 23rd anyway ..
00:04:48scorcheMT: yeah...that is fine =)
00:06:17MTsaratoga : not for a long time before gsoc though :)
00:08:02MTscorche : we have a fest here in Egypt on the 20th (it's a holiday too ) so I hope it ends well :D
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00:20:04webguest26hey, my album art doesnt show up in RB, anyone know why?
00:21:31evilnickwebguest26: What format is the art in?
00:22:33rasherwebguest26: And where is it placed, and how is it named?
00:23:10evilnickAnd what player you have might help too.
00:24:16 Quit einhirn_ ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.")
00:27:53webguest26well i have an 80 gig ipod video
00:28:11webguest26the album art is just in the itunes folder
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00:34:30webguest26anyone know what the problem is?
00:36:00advcomp2019webguest26, did you read the albumart wiki
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00:41:39webguest26i cant find that in the wiki
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01:51:23 Quit ender` (" Why geeks like computers: look chat date touch grep make unzip strip view finger mount fsck more fsck yes spray umount slee")
01:52:09krazykit`antonio_, please read the topic
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01:56:00krazykit`hi JustKemp
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01:56:24JustKempwhats rockbox?
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01:57:48webguest49how do you get album artwork into rockbox?
01:58:36krazykit`you read the wiki:
01:58:58JustKempu know you stuff, krazykit
01:59:26webguest49thanks i couldnt find that
03:00:07JustKempi dont see any music on here at all...?
03:00:33krazykit`why would you expect to find music?
03:00:59krazykit`rockbox is a firmware for a number of DAPs...
03:02:44saratogawhy send people to the wiki when the first words on the front page are "Rockbox is an ..."
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03:03:47krazykit`saratoga, beer ;)
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03:47:50ufomanhi, have you ever experienced a glitch that the playback stops suddenly and resumes at 5-6 seconds of song time before it happened?
03:48:27ufomanmy player is iaudio x5, build r20652
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04:17:21dreamlayersHello everyone. It's my first time here.
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04:20:23dreamlayersTwo people who have encountered FS #9926 think that the bug should be in 3.2 release notes. (On Color and Photo iPods, System -> Rockbox Info always says battery is charging)
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04:22:09rasherThe Known Bugs section of the release notes didn't really get much attention. I'm not sure if that particular bug is worthy of getting in there though?
04:23:32dreamlayersI also have a patch there. It accesses an unknown PP5020 register. Based on what I saw in the OF, 0x70000088 may be an input for GPO32 bits. The OF first writes a zero word and then reads the word to test the bit.
04:24:42rasherHonestly, I'm not sure who you'd want to talk to for this kind of stuff. I seem to remember Buschel doing some PP related power stuff
04:25:19rasherIt's not the most active time of the week, middle of saturday night in Europe
04:26:01dreamlayersYeah, I don't really know if it's worthy of getting in there. I rarely even look at that screen. I just thought I should bring it up because two people asked.
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04:26:57dreamlayersFS #10051 is a duplicate of the same bug.
04:27:10rasherdreamlayers: Is charging broken in any significant way, or is it just that screen showing wrong info?
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04:28:48dreamlayersCharging from USB is probably broken, but that's unrelated. This is just the issue of reading the wrong bit and displaying status incorreclty there.
04:29:19dreamlayersThanks for taking care of the duplicate.
04:29:50rasherThat doesn't seem release-note worthy. Broken charging does, but is that FS #8802?
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04:30:43rasherdreamlayers: You should talk to Zagor (Björn Stenberg) about getting developer level on FlySpray
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04:32:14dreamlayersYeah, charging is in FS #8802.
04:32:15dreamlayersFS #9987 is a duplicate.
04:33:41dreamlayersOkay, I'll talk to Zagor.
04:33:43rasherAlright, 8802 is already in the release notes, so we have that covered it seems
04:34:07dreamlayersYep, that's definitely covered
04:36:30dreamlayersHas anyone tested the patch from 8802?
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04:40:19rasherI'd think people would report back there. Are you positive FS #9987 is a duplicate? The descriptions don't seem to match?
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04:43:42dreamlayersFrom the point of view of USB power hardware, it doesn't matter whether there is a USB connection or whether it's a USB charger or a USB port. Software has to see what's connected and respond accordingly.
04:46:06 Quit XavierGr ()
04:47:03dreamlayersActually, there is one difference: firmware in flash should enable charging if it sees a supported USB charger at power-on.
04:53:16rasherHonestly I'm not qualified to discuss, it just seemed one task concerned the Rockbox USB stack not requesting 500mA power, and the other is completely failing to charge from AC adapters
04:59:06dreamlayersOkay, I'll bring this up another time when more people are around. (Rockbox already requests 500 mA, but a request doesn't change how much current the device uses. It just makes sure that the requested current is available.)
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05:14:25*LambdaCalculus37 waves to dreamlayers
05:14:54*dreamlayers waves to LambdaCalculus37
05:15:11LambdaCalculus37Welcome to the fun. :)
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05:15:46ufomanbah... I should sleep and not wonder whether ogg is 100% realtime on coldfire... ;p
05:17:15ufomanit is. my newly acquired x5 seems to play some jokes on me...
05:18:45LambdaCalculus37dreamlayers: Question about your work on FS #9787 and FS #9890... since you seem to have an idea of how to talk to the BCM chip in the iPod video, do you believe that we may be able to utilize it at some point in the future?
05:18:53rasherufoman: It's very comfortably realtime indeed
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05:19:14LambdaCalculus37ufoman: Ogg vorbis playback is very realtime on my H340.
05:19:43ufomanyea I probably had some problem with disk read
05:20:13LambdaCalculus37ufoman: Better make sure the disk is in good shape and not going south.
05:20:45ufomanit was stopping playback for like 500msec and retrying
05:21:09ufomanI could not feel that it was actively reading data
05:21:33dreamlayersLambdaCalculus37: I think figuring out more about the BCM will be difficult. The firmware in osos is very complex, and a bunch of threads are devoted to the BCM.
05:21:54ufomanLambdaCalculus37: I'll do it. I hope I won't have to hunt for MK4007GAL anytime soon...
05:22:42saratogawithout a compiler i'm not sure what good the BCM chip would be, aside maybe for color space conversion if it can do that in hardware
05:23:29dreamlayersCould we use the BCM firmware from the resource partition?
05:23:44LambdaCalculus37dreamlayers: Not sure if it's possible.
05:23:59LambdaCalculus37But we could pick it apart to see how it works, perhaps.
05:24:12saratogadreamlayers: you mean like the decoder on HWCODEC?
05:25:44dreamlayersYeah... I guess the situations are simillar
05:26:27dreamlayersRockbox is already using BCM firmware from the vmcs part of the flash.
05:26:57saratogai'm sure it could be done, though its a lot of effort to get H.264
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05:28:02LambdaCalculus37saratoga: But it may be worth the effort. :)
05:28:33saratogabuy a Gigabeat S, we have a spec sheet for the mx31's video chip
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05:28:58LambdaCalculus37saratoga: Already got one. :)
05:29:05saratogathen get to work
05:29:28saratogathat reminds me i keep forgetting to send that gigabeat T
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05:31:03LambdaCalculus37saratoga: Where's the spec sheet located?
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05:37:04dreamlayersThe link in the Wiki is broken. I think this is the datasheet:
05:37:50JdGordondreamlayers: hey, thanks for finding that div0 problem... i was thinking it would be something like that :/
05:38:51dreamlayersJdGordon: you're welcome
05:39:17dreamlayersDisassembling is fun :)
05:39:46LambdaCalculus37dreamlaters: Let me check it out.
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05:43:42dreamlayersJdGordon: there have been some changes to WPS code recently, and some parts of playback_changes.11.diff fail.
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05:46:07JdGordonyeah, kugel's fault.. i havnt had a chance to sync it yet
05:49:46saratogatheres actually a better datasheet for the S somewhere, its a couple thousand pages long
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05:57:30dreamlayersLots of IMX31 things are available from
06:00:14dreamlayers 2470 page reference manual
06:01:28LambdaCalculus37Holy crap!
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07:47:45Lloreankugel: We should be discussing this here, where it's logged
07:48:16LloreanRockbox as an app should, where possible ,strive to us the UI widgets appropriate to the OS it's running on. That means, for example, file browsing should not use our list. It should use a more "standard" file browser widget for the OS it's on
07:49:00LloreanPreserving "the list" for menus and files just makes the UI less appropriate for normal use. It's used now because it's the best we can do where we are, and not something we should force on users when a better option can be made available
07:49:07kugelwhy should it not use our lists?
07:49:18LloreanBecause they're _worse_ to use than other options
07:49:34kugelif you can click on a list item with the mouse? that's just fine, using actual rockbox
07:49:40kugelreally, I
07:49:58kugelI'm saying using only codecs and plugins wouldn't satisfy me
07:50:12Lloreankugel: In a normal application, if you want to choose the "Files" or "Tools" menu, do you have to manually click your way out of the files menu first, or can you just click Tools?
07:50:39kugelin a normal application I just want to click databse
07:50:52LloreanThat's a pointless answer.
07:50:58 Quit StealthyXIIGer (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
07:51:02LloreanIt's a simple question.
07:51:07kugelwhy? just clicking database should be doable
07:51:24kugelthe database browser could possible extended. with an album art view, for example
07:51:26LloreanWhy are you ignoring my question?
07:51:39LloreanYou're saying our menus aren't restrictive, that's an example where they are.
07:51:51LloreanOur menu structure doesn't allow quick movement from one part of the menus to another
07:52:15kugelthere's always the way of having "standard menus" or even shortcuts for stuff like tools
07:52:31LloreanI thought you wanted to preserve the list for menus
07:52:57kugelif rockbox-as-an-app means doing a new media player I'm certainly not interested in it, and just fgo with some random mpd client or amarok/rhytmbox
07:53:24LloreanSo basically, "if I can't have my restrictive UI, I don't want to use it"?
07:54:03kugelLlorean: using rockbox lists where it makes sense to use lists at all. if a list is totally unsuited, than use what can be solved better by using native widgets
07:54:17LloreanThat's *everything* then
07:54:26LloreanThere's nowhere that a Rockbox list is more suited.
07:54:30kugelyou're equaling rockbox ui with restricting, which I don't
07:54:45LloreanThe Rockbox UI would be restricting to someone expecting an actual PC application
07:55:25kugelthe whole windows explorer is a list, with just some file/edit/etc menus too. That's what raap can do too
07:55:50kugelI don't want just a pcc app. I want ROCKBOX as a pc app
07:55:55LloreanWindows explorer is not just a list
07:56:06LloreanIt also has a second list to the left showing parallel folders
07:56:12LloreanIt has a selection of other things as well.
07:56:21kugelthat's the whole point of doing the project under the name of rockbox
07:57:09kugelwhat pieces of rockbox are you expecting to still be active in raap?
07:57:44LloreanCodec support, playlisting functionaliy, themable playback screen, settings and options. Basically the actual *features* rather than the UI.
07:58:35kugel90% of which isn't unique at all
07:58:49LloreanSo we should keep unique things even if they're bad or restrictive?
07:59:01LloreanClearly we should then keep our buffering the way it is. It's definitely unique for a PC player.
07:59:16kugelagain, I don't think there's any restriction
07:59:35LloreanYou honestly think our file browser can let you see the collection on your player, and access them, as quickly as Windows Explorer / Nautilus / Whatever?
07:59:59kugelbut it's rally hard to descirbe how I'm imagening raap. And again, there's just about everyone having a (at least slightly) different expectation
08:00:06LloreanIt's a yes/no question.
08:00:36kugelour list code is used much more than just in the file or database browser
08:00:43LloreanIt's a yes/no question.
08:00:59kugelNo, then
08:01:23LloreanSo then you agree there is some degree of restriction.
08:01:49kugelThe windows explorer might be perfect for selecting files. But our list code is also responsible for browsing plugins, settings, the playlist and more
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08:02:18LloreanThe settings can be accessed via a more standard menu structure for the native OS (again, less restrictive than our list)
08:02:42LloreanThe playlist can be shown in a list, sure. Probably extended from our own (for example, on PCs the 'context' menu should be on right click)
08:02:56kugelI'm nor particularly interested in using OS apis where possible. Only where it makes sense
08:03:07kugeland where it makes it worth leaving the rockbox path
08:03:15LloreanThey should be used anywhere it increases usability.
08:03:39kugelwhich seems to be everywhere for you
08:03:53LloreanWell, you agree for the file browser.
08:04:02LloreanAnd you refused to answer my question about hopping quickly from one menu tree to another
08:04:22LloreanThe database browser is the same case as the file browser.
08:04:26kugelhow's raap rockbox, if a user cannot recognize rockbox on his player and rockbox on his windows?
08:04:27LloreanAnd I've yielded on Playlists.
08:04:30LloreanWhere else, really, is there?
08:05:01LloreanPlugins are a separate can of worms anyway
08:05:24kugelwell, if you want native OS function, then install a codec pac, srs wow, use windows media player and be happy
08:05:41kugelthat's what I want from raap
08:05:42Lloreankugel: RaaP's point is to make it easier to use native UI widgets. Separate the code out, and compile with them, so that it's easier to make targets use them. So that, for example, on smartphones where more of our UI needs to be preserved for usability it's easier to adapt
08:05:47LloreanRaaP is NOT just for PC apps
08:06:52kugel"RaaP's point is to make it easier to use native UI widgets" I disagree. It's porting rockbox to x86/amd64 to be an actual (and usable) pc app
08:07:01JustKempwhat is raap?
08:07:03LloreanAnd it will be.
08:07:20Lloreankugel: The point is for other devices. But if the PC app is usable, that's fine. You want to make it LESS usable.
08:07:22LloreanWhich is silly
08:07:28LloreanJustKemp: Rockbox as an App
08:07:36kugelas I said, your expectation seems to be only have codecs (and some dsp features) avalailable on the desktop to me
08:07:54Lloreankugel: And your expectation is to intentionally restrict users to preserve a look.
08:08:09LloreanYou've admitted your way is more restrictive.
08:08:24kugelI've discussed enough. your arguments get pointless
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08:09:14LloreanBy "pointless" I assume you mean "I can't actually tell you where the list will offer more functionality than a native widget, so I'm going to get vague again"?
08:10:04kugelwhatever, I'm done. This is not going to get anywhere if you're repeatedly claiming I want to restrict users
08:10:06LloreanI mean, I do assume if you had more reason than "It should look like Rockbox" you'd have offered it by now.
08:10:15Lloreankugel: You've admitted your way would be more restrictive
08:10:22LloreanDo you deny that admission, just a few lines ago, now or something?
08:10:38LloreanSo why do you say "claiming" when it's true?
08:10:42LloreanBy your own admission
08:10:48kugelI said it may be more restrive in terms of browsing for music. That's all
08:10:59kugelrockbox is more than just abour browsing for music
08:11:01LloreanTell me how it would be less restrictive for menus, then. Or database.
08:11:19LloreanBecause those are the three places I've said we should use native widgets so far, and you've disagreed with me.
08:11:22LloreanSo surely you can point out how.
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08:12:00JustKempok, imm not very IT handy. but here goes. rockbox can be installed on selected mp3 players, to basically give them a new theme/watever . am i right??????
08:12:09kugelsure, now you've only apply your arguments for browsing. I'm sorry I've missed that early and thought you want OS widgets everywhere
08:12:19LloreanJustKemp: It's not a theme. it's a wide range of features, replacing the host firmware entirely when running
08:12:32scorcheJustKemp: rockbox is a complete replacement firmware...not just a theme...check out the WhyRockbox wiki page
08:12:33Lloreankugel: I want OS widgets *where they expand or ease functionality*
08:12:39Lloreankugel: How would you have an OS widget for the WPS?
08:12:39JustKempbut it looks just like a different theme?
08:12:53LloreanJustKemp: What do you mean by that?
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08:13:13JustKempnevr mind. i'll just read the page
08:14:27Lloreankugel: I don't want to remove any features, but I don't see "limited list-based browsing" as a feature so much as a limiting factor imposed by the inputs available to us on most players.
08:15:11JustKempok i think i get it......... so its like how most laptops come with vista, but a linux can be installed instead.
08:15:54JustKempis that right?
08:15:56LloreanJustKemp: Something like that, only there aren't many players you can put Rockbox on. The list isn't short, but it's definite. If your player isn't on the list, Rockbox needs to be ported first.
08:16:06LloreanAnd that's an awful lot of work
08:17:09JustKempthats still pretty kool
08:17:46kugelLlorean: for raap, I'd e.g. expect to have click on a "play" icon actually do something. which would also apply to touchscreen
08:18:22Lloreankugel: This is something common to most PC-side audio players anyway
08:18:41LloreanThe WPS would probably always be visible, and the Play/Pause/Stop button would toggle basic playback state.
08:18:47LloreanThere's already plans to do this for touchscreen
08:19:00kugelbut actually, I'm kinda doubting you get me entirely, I and I also doubt that I get you entirely. I'm just too tired for an in-depth discussion right now.
08:19:15kugelsee you later
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09:07:21amiconnsaratoga_lab: The biggest problem with utilising the BCM is that it seems to be a custom architecture, so there is neither a compiler nor an assembler available for it
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09:10:15rwcramiconn: I'm pretty sure the BCM chip is an ARC - that's suggested by the ELF headers for the files on the rsrc image - but that doesn't make it any easier to find a toolchain.
09:10:55amiconnThe architecure identifier in the .elf files is unknown to the gnu tools
09:11:20amiconn(something in the 0x50 range, don't remember exactly)
09:11:24rwcrHm, strange. I worked on the iPodLinux project a few years back, and ARC was the conclusion we reached.
09:11:38rwcrWe could've been mistaken, though - we never did manage to get anything running on the chip.
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09:16:17amiconnFrom what I read, ARC seems to be a flexible core which can be extended by customer specific instructions
09:16:42amiconnSo it could indeed be one, but it wouldn't change anything...
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09:47:05JdGordonLlorean: I wonder where you got that idea for rockbox-as-an-app... using the OS widgets is almost impossible in its current state.... that might be a very long term goal... but for now its just being able to use the native drawing code instead of sdl...
09:47:09JdGordonditto for sound/buttons
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09:48:53LloreanJdGordon: In pretty much ever discussion about it, it's come up that it should eventually use the OS widgets.
09:49:21JdGordon*eventually* being a long way away
09:49:28LloreanThat doesn't change the fact that it's a goal.
09:49:32LloreanKugel's idea is that it shouldn't be a goal at all.
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09:51:02JdGordonconsidering how the screens are drawn I tihnk its a impossible goal anyway
09:51:34LloreanWhat do you mean?
09:52:11JdGordonscreens arnt drawn as collections of widgets like "real" OS's expect
09:52:23LloreanMost screens won't even exist any more.
09:52:24JdGordonapart from the list view... everything is custom
09:52:34LloreanIt's the list that I'm mainly talking about
09:52:39Llorean90% of User Input is the list.
09:52:46JdGordonthen whats the point? you're takeing a below standard playback engine and tacking on a custom frontend?
09:52:47LloreanOr just next/prev on the WPS etc
09:52:54LloreanWhich of course will still use the WPS
09:53:06LloreanJdGordon: What's the point in leaving the list in?
09:53:22Llorean"Let's take below standard (as you describe) playback, and give it a hard to use UI making it LESS desirable"?
09:53:33JdGordon? its not rockbox as an app anymore... its a new ui for rockbox's cruddy playback engine
09:54:13LloreanWhere the hell does this "it's not Rockbox any more if we change the UI" come from?
09:54:30LloreanWho does it benefit if we make the PC-side UI intentionally crappier than it needs to be?
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09:55:24*JdGordon is not going to get drawn into a debate about what rockbox is and isnt
09:55:35LloreanThen you can't use it as a point defending your view.
09:55:50LloreanIf you can't define what Rockbox is, you can't say "your idea is less Rockbox than mine" justifiably.
09:56:55LloreanWhy not tell me how keeping the Rockbox UI makes it better on the PC?
09:57:04LloreanTalk in terms of things you can actually describe.
09:57:59JdGordonwho ever said anything about making it better? since when is that a goal
09:58:32LloreanWhat the is the point of making Rockbox as an app, if we're not trying to make it good?
09:59:10JdGordon1) to get it on more targets, 2) some people actually dont mind using the sim as their audio player
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09:59:18Llorean1) We don't get targets where we're not good.
09:59:55LloreanIf I had to navigate the list menus of Rockbox to use it on my phone, I probably just wouldn't use it on my phone, ever.
10:00:21LloreanThere's no reason to restrict it to that solely for the purpose of restricting it to that.
10:00:40LloreanAnd if the sim is good enough to use on a PC, why don't we just use the sim as Rockbox as an App?
10:01:50LloreanSo again I ask - why is it beneficial to restrict the UI like this?
10:02:40JdGordoni ask again, why are you argunign stupid side things? I never said anything about restricting it.. I just said that the goal was very unlikely
10:02:57LloreanYou said it's not Rockbox as an app if we do it.
10:03:15LloreanSo, you're against it for Rockbox as an app
10:03:28LloreanSo yes, you said we shouldn't do it.
10:04:18JdGordonright, then why dont you open up a text editor and get to it? apparently you know how everything must be done and the likes of us who actually code dont...
10:04:44amiconnImo the whole rockbox-as-an-app idea is weird
10:04:49LloreanJdGordon: Right, don't actually argue the points do you.
10:05:00LloreanJdGordon: "Oh look, he caught me in a contradiction, let's change topics."
10:05:08LloreanIf you don't want to actually defend what you say, don't bother to say it.
10:05:20LloreanBut for heaven's sake, if you actually say something, own up to it.
10:05:27LloreanEither defend it, or say "No, I didn't mean it like that. Sorry for being unclear."
10:05:39lucentplease take this to privmsg
10:05:42amiconnIf you take rockbox as-is (i.e. similar to the sim) it would be a pita to use, but if you change the UI, what difference to other pc based audio players remains?
10:06:08Lloreanamiconn: Database compatibility, format support, probably the ability to use most player-specific themes.
10:06:25JdGordonLlorean: you're the one reading way too much into what I've said...
10:06:27Lloreanamiconn: Not to mention, RB as an app isn't just for PCs. Smartphones and PDAs too
10:06:35amiconnThe themes are an UI thing - if you change the UI the themes won't be compatible anymore
10:06:39LloreanJdGordon: How so. You're the one not defending his points, and changing the subject.
10:07:05Lloreanamiconn: The main UI changes would be to the list. The WPS wouldn't necessarily have much to change, and 99% of themes is the WPS
10:07:10amiconnAnd other pc apps have the same, if not better, format support
10:07:18JdGordonI never read his points... so why should i go defedning them? i'm just saying changing the ui is pointless
10:07:18Lloreanamiconn: Again, not just PC apps.
10:07:26LloreanJdGordon: I said you need to defend YOUR POINTS
10:07:32LloreanHow the heck is this "his?"
10:07:34JdGordonno, you said his
10:07:57LloreanJdGordon: Quote me the "his" then?
10:08:02LloreanThe only "he" I used refers to me.
10:08:03*JdGordon thinks Raaa is more for pda/phones than pc anyway
10:08:06*amiconn tends to ignore smartphones and pdas
10:08:14JdGordon[01:06:47] <Llorean> JdGordon: How so. You're the one not defending his points
10:08:36amiconnLlorean: The WPS would also need changing at least for a pc app. I'd want clickable buttons for prev/next/pause/stop...
10:08:40LloreanJdGordon: Yes, YOUR points
10:08:52LloreanJdGordon: "You're the one not defending his points." The pronoun obviously refers to you in that sentence.
10:08:54JdGordonbecause your and his magically mean the same thing now?
10:09:03LloreanIf Your is used first, they can
10:09:13LloreanI never mentioned anyone else's points
10:09:14amiconnSo the only thing left (imo) would be database compatibility... which isn't worth much
10:09:20lucentplease? Enough of this in the logs
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10:09:23Lloreanamiconn: Clickable buttons could happen on touchscreen too
10:09:26amiconnThe database differs per-target anyway
10:09:46LloreanJdGordon: So, do you want to actually defend your statements about RBAA? Or shut up, as lucent suggests?
10:10:06lucentI suggest that you both quit filling up the !@#$ logs with this banter
10:10:41scorchethis certainly is getting a bit out of hand...
10:10:44Lloreanamiconn: Endianness or other differences?
10:11:16Lloreanlucent: The discussion of Rockbox as an app is on-topic here, if JdGordon would like to actually continue discussing it.
10:11:28LloreanI just lost my tempter at his attempt to sidetrack things. I'm sorry.
10:11:37lucentanyhow I was to leave a log note for kugel, the >1GB patch fixes filesystem access but exposes some quirky button events under frozen bubble plugin
10:11:52Lloreanlucent: If it's a patch on the tracker, it's better to leave messages there.
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10:13:34lucentLlorean: I have nothing to say other than you're sourcing me for the basis of an argument I want no part in.
10:14:07Lloreanlucent: I don't understand. I'm just suggesting you put it on the tracker, and I agreed with you that we should cease the off-topic part of our discussion.
10:14:15lucentlogs have it, I'm going to sleep. Good night rockbox'ers
10:15:29JdGordonim going to bed... but before I do.... seriously Llorean, pull your head out of your ass... you ccreated the argument... all i said was thats its an unrealistic goal.. NOTHING MORE
10:15:43LloreanJdGordon: No, you said plenty more. I even pointed out where you did.
10:16:34LloreanJdGordon: If you didn't mean it, feel free to take responsibility and say something like "I didn't mean 'It wouldn't be Rockbox as an app if we changed the UI'"
10:16:43amiconnLlorean: I mean the database differs in content, depending on what audio tracks are stored on the device
10:17:08scorchecan we just stop all "i _______; you ______" comments and stick to the technical aspects?
10:17:28JdGordonheaven forbid... Llorean doesnt know the technical difficulties
10:17:33Lloreanscorche: Well right now, he's got two contradictory technical arguments, and I don't know which one's his actual point - the things he said or the other things he said
10:17:34amiconnDifferent endianess is handled by the db engine (and I still think this is unnecessary)
10:17:47JdGordonLlorean: i never said it wouldnt be rockbox without it... i said it would be a pointless excersize
10:17:53JdGordonfeel free to do it if you want though
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10:18:10LloreanJdGordon: (2:53:29 AM) JdGordon: ? its not rockbox as an app anymore... its a new ui for rockbox's cruddy playback engine
10:18:23LloreanDo you think I'm unable to read?
10:19:01Lloreanamiconn: Well, regardless there's still the benefit for PDA/Smartphone/DAPS with a full OS
10:20:43amiconnYeah, possibly
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10:35:57markunLlorean: I also thought that "his points" refered to kugel's points
10:36:17Lloreanmarkun: That seems odd.
10:36:46LloreanBecause in the whole rest of it, I was discussing JdGordon's ideas about it, except one of the very early sentences.
10:37:22markunjust shows you how weird our minds are
10:37:24LloreanIt would be rather silly to use a pronoun to refer to a person paragraphs ealier.
10:37:42markunperhaps, but I still read it as such
10:38:15LloreanRegardless though, I didn't hold that one against him. I clarified it, and wanted to get back to discussing the actual issues with RBaaa using OS widgets vs our list.
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10:40:05LloreanI guess my concern is that, most discussion of RBaaa I've seen over the last few years have included the idea of it using OS specific widgets where appropriate.
10:40:30LloreanWhen talking with SoC students, I don't think we should be discouraging them away from this, unless this idea has changed significantly and I've missed it.
10:40:51LloreanMainly I see this as replacing the list with something less cumbersome
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10:59:41JustKempjust wondering
11:00:12JustKemplike rockbox is for mp3, can u get anything for phones ???
11:00:44scorcheJustKemp: this channel is about rockbox and rockbox only...if you are looking for something else, perhaps it might be ebtter if you looked elsewhere..
11:01:01JustKempim not looking for anything else
11:01:07JustKempi was just wondering is all
11:01:41LloreanJustKemp: The website should explain most of it. Including the list of what it runs on
11:02:56JustKempthe website does explain most of it. and im not looking elsewhere for anything. i am simply wondering if there are such programs for phones. i figure u might know
11:03:18n1spixelma: is it teh keymap or the manual that is wrong? (
11:04:00LloreanJustKemp: That would be "something else" as scorche said then.
11:05:48JustKempor was that too harsh?
11:06:55pixelman1s: the manual should be correct and I think the virtual keyboard too but I'm not sure - that's a part where I use a patch...
11:07:33n1spixelma: they don't match, deleting a char is doen with rec+down but the manual says rec + select
11:08:53LloreanJustKemp: This channel is for discussion of Rockbox. Please respect that and keep your questions to those about Rockbox.
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11:10:27n1spixelma: i think the keymap for the vk is pretty bad, what does your patch do?
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11:13:13pixelman1s: only Rec for me... and I guess that's a part of FS #8824 (IIRC) I would be willing to commit, not sure about the others. It changed a bit since then (mainly enabling line edit mode additionally) and needs a patch for the manual
11:15:49n1si think your keymap for the vk is much better, i'd say commit :)
11:16:28pixelmaoh, and the version I use currently doesn't have a page flip in favour of short select for quit - maybe there could be a button combo open for page flip?
11:17:02n1syeah, page flip is not as important as exiting so i like that
11:17:31pixelmaI also thought of finding a button combo for enabling morse mode but didn't actually try yet
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11:18:21n1show about rec+select or rec+power to toggle Morse mode?
11:20:01JustKemprockbox is a great thing. one of the greatest things. it would be a shame if there was another program on a completely different product (for example, phone) that could potentially ruin the potential of rockbox. what would the estimated threat of that be, do you reckon?
11:20:01pixelmanthe other part of that patch I still use is resume but since it "disables" the possibility to adjust volume in the lists I'm not sure how other see it (to me a one button resume is much more important)
11:20:27pixelman1s: need to try
11:22:04pixelman1s: are simple button repeats (of Rec) still possible then? I find it quite convenient for deleting a longer part of the line but know that this isn't done on some other targets either
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11:23:36n1spixelma: i'm not sure but i think repeats should work even if you have a combo
11:23:54JustKempwhere would i be able to find screenshots of the latest/best versions of rockbox????
11:24:02LloreanJustKemp: In the manual.
11:24:14pixelman1s: I'll play around with it after lunch
11:24:20n1sotherwise maybe vol u/down + select or power could work to toggle Morse
11:24:40n1spixelma: great :)
11:24:43LloreanJustKemp: Please don't use things like "thanx" or the "u" earlier in here. There are IrcGuidelines linked in the channel topic.
11:24:49scorcheJustKemp: due to the themeability of rockbox though, keep in mind that many screens can look a bit different...
11:25:37JustKempdefine thermeability
11:25:43pixelman1s: what do you think about resume on VolUp in the menus/browsers?
11:25:47scorcheability to be themed
11:26:00scorche- to have the look changed by themes
11:26:13JustKempoh. Thank you kind sir/madam.
11:26:30n1spixelma: that sounds rather strange to me but i dont' really use volume in lists or resume that often...
11:27:03n1sshort power could resume maybe?
11:27:20pixelmashort power is used to bring up the menu
11:27:48n1sah, ritght, darned lack of good buttons
11:30:04JustKempGSoC2009 ???
11:30:17n1sGSoC2009 !!!
11:30:29pixelma*I* could also imagine to use short Select for resuming and having Select and context menu on Right/long Right only. But that's because it's similar on Ondio... (Right and Select are redundant on other targets though)
11:31:07Lloreanpixelma: Could long-right be resume maybe?
11:31:23n1spixelma: that's a possiblility
11:31:26linuxstbJustKemp: Just ask google.
11:31:28LloreanIt's a little odd, but it's also a "press" people almostn ever use otherwise
11:31:37JustKemptoo much trouble
11:31:40LloreanWhereas some people are going to expect center to be select.
11:31:51*n1s raises a hanf
11:32:13Lloreann1s: You use long-right, or you have a question?
11:32:21pixelmaLlorean: well, if you can do without forced horizontal scrolling... I definitely could
11:32:24JustKempis everybody here developers?
11:32:38n1sI expect select to be the center butt, sorry for the unclarity :)
11:32:41Lloreanpixelma: I'd say "resume playback" trumps that. maybe we could put forced scrolling on a combination of some sort.
11:32:52*n1s gives up
11:33:03LloreanJustKemp: No, but many are.
11:34:03pixelmaLlorean: it is a combo on Ondio and this way it could be scrapped completely IMO - I never use it but never saw a need to
11:34:16pixelmaof course it could
11:34:28LloreanI use it on my H120 for one of my folders
11:35:14LloreanBut I think it's moderately nonessential relative to getting more core functionality mapped well
11:36:41pixelmanext after lunch project - I'll try to get the virtual keyboard part commitable and try to post a patch for resume and the other thing that I use which deviates from SVN (long Select for the WPS context menu)
11:37:02*Llorean personally thinks Long Select being context menus wherever possible is important
11:37:27LloreanSomehow it feels like "Right click" on the PC, just something I "expect" to be there. I know it's something Rockbox trained into me, but it begins to feel very natural
11:37:33pixelmaLlorean: you already have experience commiting a change for WPS context menu ;)
11:38:20Lloreanpixelma: I try to only commit keymap changes people *won't* like. It's no fun if it actually improves things. :-P
11:40:06pixelmaok, part three then
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11:41:42*Llorean thinks the Next/Prev side-buttons on the Gigabeat S may be opposite of what he'd expect them to be.
11:43:18*Llorean would expect "up" to be "next" and "down" to be "previous"
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12:20:27AleMaxxhas rockbox been ported to rk270x yet?
12:20:54n1sLlorean: yeah, that's a bit backwards, they got the volu up/down right though, they feel backwards on the c200 for me
12:21:06n1sAleMaxx: is it listed on the frontpage?
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12:21:58Llorean n1s: On the c200 they're "left/right" instead of "up/down" and I guess that's why they're different.
12:22:02AleMaxxn1s: i dont see a list on the frontpage but its mostly listed by player and not cpu anyway
12:22:10LloreanIn both cases it's a matter of taste, but I do think "up" on volume and "next" on tracks should be the same direction
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12:22:28LloreanAleMaxx: Since there's more hardware than just a CPU, it's the player we worry about.
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12:25:09AleMaxxLlorean: most the hardware is on chip though for these SoCs
12:25:21LloreanAleMaxx: We're not psychic.
12:25:32AleMaxxbut youre right, displays and keyboard layout may change
12:25:37LloreanIf you ask if something's supported, and the only thing we ever claim supporting is specific players, we can't really know you're asking about something other than a player
12:26:14AleMaxxLlorean, well, to be honest Im pretty sure its not supported
12:26:27LloreanIt's not.
12:26:43LloreanOr rather, no player using it is.
12:27:17AleMaxxLlorean are you a developer?
12:27:19LloreanFor example, we support a few players using PP5020 SoCs, but there are others that use it we don't support. There's no requirement that firmware be encrypted or stored the same way for a given SoC, often, so even if we did support some players with it, that's not really indicative of the potential for supporting others.
12:27:53LloreanAleMaxx: Not often.
12:28:25AleMaxxwell, ive been doing some research on rk270x players recently and i do own one
12:29:40AleMaxxthere is a partial sdk available to and im confident that i can include my own code into the players firmware but that i fear that its quite dangerous
12:30:36AleMaxxLlorean, is rockbox easy to port?
12:30:55AleMaxxis there a svn/cvs with web interface?
12:31:35LloreanRockbox is a full replacement firmware. How easy / difficult it is to port would depend a lot on your experience in the related areas. It's not just an application you run inside another firmware.
12:37:25amiconnSomeone broke resume, at least on hwcodec. :(
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12:42:03amiconnHuh? Now it works??
12:44:35amiconnIt's a timing issue.
12:44:56amiconnWhen pressing the resume button too early it breaks
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12:59:39p2Does anyone have updates on the samsung p2?
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13:10:38p2p2 updates?
13:11:06advcomp2019p2, you need to look at the wiki or the forum
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13:18:01p2p2 info?
13:18:13n1sp2: please stop
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13:21:31p2sorry for trolling
13:21:51advcomp2019p2, i told you where too
13:22:10p2OH! I didnt see your post, Sorry guys,
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13:37:11*amiconn summons Zagor
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13:53:29AleMaxxtrapped under ice
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14:00:26pixelmahehe, if I'm reading the c200's keymap file correctly, forced horizontal scroll isn't even defined yet... shows how much people missed it ;)
14:03:19pixelmaor at least it doesn't work... somehow I'm confused a bit by a few contexts at the moment
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14:11:06pixelmathe c200 keymap file looks quite messy to me :\
14:11:59*amiconn slaps kugel a bit
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14:35:46BdN3504Can anyone help me understand the gigabeat flashwriter? can i use this plugin, only if i have a jtag interface? because in the wiki it says you only "should" do it, when you have one, so i understand it's not a must...
14:36:34BdN3504oops, i wrote plugin should be program.
14:37:03n1sBdN3504: with flashing there's a risk of bricking the device, jtag can be used to rescue it
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14:37:29pixelmahmm... that forced horizontal scroll works somehow currently but not always (and does something else sometimes) and is very timing critical
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14:37:54BdN3504ok, so ican flash it and if it goes wrong the way to do it is with jtag... i have three gigabeats now, so i am eager to brick one :)
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14:38:57amiconnkugel: Your wps change (r20483+r20485) breaks resume on hwcodec. Do you have an idea why?
14:39:21amiconnIt seems to be a timing issue, and I found that you removed a yield(); call. But putting it back does't fix it...
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14:40:37BdN3504so how would i go about using this program? i guess i'll have to compile it first. i have the old vmware image installed and up and running.
14:41:28amiconnIt even breaks playback from the Ondio's internal flash...
14:42:31LloreanBdN3504: Where in the wiki are you getting your information.
14:42:37LloreanI didn't think anything for gigabeat flashing was in SVN
14:45:41BdN3504gigabeat hardware information on the main gigabeat page, follow the jtag link
14:46:11BdN3504on that wiki there's a link fo the flashwriter on flyspray
14:46:27LloreanYou should ask questions on that task, then
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14:47:57BdN3504i preferred asking here, because the task only gets updated sporadically.
14:49:01LloreanBdN3504: most people set tasks they're involved with to be "watched" and get notified of new comments
14:49:22LloreanMeanwhile, it's a flyspray task. The majority of people in here have never seen it, or not kept track of it beyond noting when it was posted.
14:53:40BdN3504hm, but there are many major rockbox hackers who are interested in this task (kkurbjun, saratoga, chronon and bigbambi) who are quite often online in this channel, so i thought chances be good to get a helpful answer here.
14:54:56LloreanBdN3504: Generally speaking, flyspray tasks are like unsupported builds. You should ask support questions in the task entry. They do get discussed in here, but it should generally be in a development context, not a support one.
14:55:12BdN3504ok thanks.
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15:04:38amiconnkugel: It is indeed a timing issue. The hwcodec playback engine doesn't have the id3 info ready immediately after starting playback. I can fix it (for testing) by inserting a sleep(HZ/2); directly before the wile loop in gui_wps_show()
15:04:53amiconnNow we'd need a real fix...
15:06:27kugelamiconn: I didn't remove the yield, I moved it into the while loop
15:06:50amiconnThe yield in that while loop is wrong, btw
15:07:06amiconnThe loop already yields; further yields only disturb timing
15:07:16amiconnI've commented that one out
15:07:55kugelthe loop already yields?
15:08:37kugeljust by being a loop?
15:08:54kugelor where? (sorry it's not obvious to me)
15:09:03amiconnIf peakmeters are enabled it yields in line 308 (sleep(0)), otherwise in line 318
15:09:16amiconn(get_action with a timeout)
15:10:13amiconnYeah, the yield you moved had the same problem
15:10:20kugelamiconn: the yield thing wasn't really a change though. it was in gui_wps_display before, which was always called on timeout
15:10:21amiconnIt shouldn't have been there
15:10:46amiconnIt seems that patch uncovered various problems elsewhere...
15:13:14kugelamiconn: well, it wouldn't be a bad fix I think. the wps is pretty much supposed to die without id3
15:13:48amiconnIt would just be a band-aid fix, and it causes the wps to appear later than it should
15:14:30kugelhm, true
15:15:18amiconnWell half a second isn't too bad. Perhaps I should commit the band-aid (could be ifdefed hwcodec) if I don't find a way to make mpeg.c behave better
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15:16:26kugelI'm wondering how it worked before. I didn't really change the return behavior (i.e. it should've been returning without id3 before my work too)
15:17:56*amiconn is looking for the place where playback is actually started
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15:32:08pixelmanot sure if morse mode makes much sense on the c200 - the table with the code doesn't fit completely on the screen and I'm not sure I'm doing something wrong in defining the actual morse button but I can't figure out how to use it (never used it as my other targets don't have it either, will look at a sim now)
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15:34:55amiconnkugel: Do you have an idea why in gui_wps_show() the wps is redrawn once before the while loop? This initial redraw protects the calls to gui_wps_display() with a check for valid id3
15:35:38amiconnThe whole thing seems unnecessary to me. Instead it might be a good idea to wait a certain amount of time for the id3 to become available.
15:38:49Unhelpfulpixelma: not sure if you saw, the reason i used long off for quit on ondio was due to short off being mapped to cancel in CONTEXT_STD. i guess the real problem is knowing how many users actually use these alternate cancel mappings - quite a few other targets use this same one, even though the power button isn't very convenient while operating the directional controls
15:39:23amiconnOtoh, checking for valid id3 as an indication for playback sounds very wrong.
15:39:33kugelamiconn: no, I don't really have an idea. I just know that id3 is immediately available on swcodec swcodec. That was before my change too though
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15:40:25amiconnkugel: It is, but that seems to be just a coincidence. Swcodec playback is handled by a separate thread the same way as it is on hwcodec, and the start is asynchronous
15:41:15pixelmaUnhelpful: I guess that on the Ondio no one really uses this - the Off button is quite a bit away from the main button pad but maybe it was done this way to stay consistent with the short/long Off for Pause/Stop?
15:43:50Unhelpfulhrm, perhaps at least *some* of the targets with that mapping should just use short off for quit? cancel in the album list is a quit, anyway, so the real question is "will the user expect this button to take them back to the album list from the track list?"
15:44:27pixelmaah, it's a history thing - when "left" wasn't cancel but "accept and leave"... *I* got used to it now though, others don't
15:46:26amiconnkugel: I think the wps should exit depending on audio status, not depending on id3 availability
15:51:31kugelsounds reasonable
15:52:08Unhelpfulso, you don't think changing it would surprise too many users?
15:52:41amiconnThe question is what the wps should do when audio is playing but id3 isn't (yet) available. Just defer drawing?
15:53:02kugelamiconn: I don't really understand what broke it exactly. I didn't really change that much
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15:58:40pixelmaUnhelpful: was that question to me and what "it" do you mean to change?
16:01:24Unhelpfulpixelma: sorry... i guess so, i don't have a large number of ondio users to poll. the question is whether masking the default mapping of short power by using it as quit would be likely to confuse "most" users. i realize there probably aren't very many users for this target. :)
16:03:26pixelmaI don't think it would be confusing if it was only changed this way in the plugin. But ask amiconn, he said he would use short Off as cancel in the settings... ;)
16:03:42pixelmacore Rockbox
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16:10:50Unhelpfulso i need a third ondio user to break the tie?
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16:55:36ufomanCould you explain me why database auto-update works a lot better on x5 than it did on nano?
16:57:10archivatorufoman: define "better"
16:57:38ufomanit's most definitely faster
16:57:56ufoman4-5 times faster, I think
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17:05:05archivatorufoman: dunno, perhaps faster disk access? The Nano is flash-based, though, it should've been faster. Fragmentation is another possibility but then again - NAND flash, shouldn't have been an issue. Could be that the coldfire port is better optimized.. Might be pure luck, too:)
17:05:39PaulJam_maybe you had dircache enabled on the x5 but not on the nano?
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17:06:36ufomanI had on both...
17:07:56ufomanarchivator: pictureflow plugin also takes les time to precache album art on x5
17:08:17ufomanso the problem may lie in optimizations
17:09:30gevaertsthey are totally different CPUs as well
17:10:15ufomanI know that :)
17:10:27ufomanthe difference is vast anyways
17:12:56ufomanhmm... I recall now I had some speed issues with USB transfers on nano... I could not get more that 3,5 MB/s average
17:13:21ufomanand it was going like that... 200 megs - pause - 200 megs
17:13:49ufomanon x5 I get 9,5 MB/s with both OF and RB
17:13:57gevaertswas that with the OF or with the rockbox stack?
17:14:10ufomangevaerts: the nano issue? with OF
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17:14:27ufomanwith RB stack USB transfers were unbearably slow
17:14:45ufomanbelow 1 MB/s and access times were awful too
17:15:00gevaertswhen was this?
17:15:36ufomanlast time I trieb rockbox USB stack on nano with r20510
17:15:42gevaertsok, that
17:15:53gevaertsok, that's basically "now" in terms of code changes...
17:16:40ufomannano had a habit of rebooting after writing ~1GB of files with OF
17:17:17ufomanthat was with OF, it never happened in disk mode or with rockbox
17:17:21gevaertswell, this sounds to me like your nano has hardware issues with its flash
17:17:24ufomanweirdness all along...
17:17:58gevaertsThat would explain all of this. Pauses in disk mode, OF rebooting, RB USB being slow, database update being slow,...
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17:18:33ufomangevaerts: maybe... when I got it USB transfer speed was like ~500 KB/s with OF
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17:18:47archivatorAnyone willing to help me with this : - I need to convert the original into a fixed-point version, using rockbox routines. I've basically carved a hole in my desk from banging my head. Both fixed-point versions do not come even close to the original floating point version. Also, "phase" is a double - I'll convert it as soon as I get this part of the code working..
17:18:51gevaertsthat's horribly slow...
17:18:53ufomanit took me a few reformats and restores with itunes to getit to reasonable speed
17:18:58ufoman*get it
17:19:41pixelmaisn't it that the OF's "emergency" disk mode was incredibly slow on some Ipods (Nano included)?
17:20:03ufomanit is slower that normal disk mode with OF
17:20:18gevaertspixelma: if it was *only* that, yes, but combined with all the other symptoms I think it's more than that
17:20:24ufomannot incredibly slow but not too fast either
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17:20:44archivatorufoman: those reformats probably forced it to reevaluate its wear leveling table. It might be that your flash is just dying and is running out of spare blocks.
17:21:05ufomanarchivator: oh... not good
17:21:14ufomanI was going to sell it anyway
17:21:29ufomanx5 is good enough for my needs
17:21:47gevaertsremind me not to buy it...
17:21:54ufomanhar har
17:23:37ufomancan I ask a hardware related question here too?
17:26:13amiconngevaerts: Speaking about usb transfer speed - will you commit your speedup work anytime soonish?
17:26:27gevaertsah yes, I should really finish that...
17:27:00gevaertsShould be pretty easy to finish. I'll look at it later today
17:27:01ufomanok, asking anyway... is it possible to replace HDD in x5 with disk that has a ZIF connector?
17:27:17ufoman(with adapter of course)
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17:28:00gevaertsufoman: if you can get everything to fit physically it should work
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17:30:39ufomanyea, but I wonder if it's possible
17:31:12ufomangetting a drive from dead ipod video is easier than MK4007GAL
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17:32:29ufomanI guess I need to lurk more on iaudiophile...
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17:39:55soapLlorean: finally got enough time together to put my thoughts regarding the forum reorg I mentioned to you briefly the other day together.
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17:40:05soapLong-winded post on rockbox-dev
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17:51:39amiconnkugel: What are you thinking about ? It seems to work properly on hwcodec; I'm about to test on swcodec
17:52:03amiconnThis function can probably be simplified further
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17:59:24kugelamiconn: seems ok. I guess the success thing is to force frequent updates until id3 is available?
17:59:45pixelman1s: I don't know where to put ACTION_KBD_MORSE_SELECT without interfering with the rest. What I think could work nicely is using Left or Right but then they are used as alternative left/right on the input line (which I wouldn't need because I have VolUp/Down for it everywhere), I saw related things in keyboard.c but couldn't figure out yet how to disable it
18:00:29kugelit's updating every HZ/5 anyway, I'm not sure if that's needed. But you may know better with a target where id3 can actually be NULL
18:00:43amiconnExiting at end of playlist works. It is caught by an if() that was already there, I just made the test a bit more specific
18:01:32amiconnkugel: Problem is that if 'update_track' or 'refresh' are cleared when the update didn't work, the next update will not update the whole wps.
18:01:38amiconnOr am I missing something?
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18:02:43kugelACTION_NONE (i.e. timeout) sets update_track to true
18:03:04amiconnhmm, so for update_track it might be unnecesary
18:03:12amiconnWhat about refresh?
18:03:18kugeland gui_wps_update updates everything that's non-static (which includes id3 info, currently)
18:03:52amiconnYeah, but it doesn't even draw the static parts if id3 isn't available, iiuc
18:05:45kugelwell, it doesn't update at all if id3 == NULL
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18:06:11amiconnYeah, and hence it needs to draw everything when id3 becomes available
18:06:32kugelbut gui_wps_update can set id3. gui_wps_display cannot, which is why _update should be used anyway
18:06:40amiconnThat's why I'm keeping 'refresh' until success
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18:07:43kugelwhat refresh? You mean restore?
18:07:52amiconnerr, yes
18:08:21kugelthat doesn't do anything to id3. It checks for valid wps, and calls gui_wps_refresh, which does nothing without id3
18:08:45kugelforcing it until id3 is available doesn't make sense
18:08:45amiconnWhy does it even exist then?
18:09:28kugelbecause it checks for a valid wps file and reverts to the build-in one if invalid, and does a full update always
18:09:59amiconnYes, and I need a full update when id3 info becomes available for the first time
18:10:09kugelit's really only meant to be used if the wps was left in the meantime, which is why it's under restore, restore is only true after quickscreen, etc, or entering
18:10:19amiconn...because otherwise all static parts would never appear
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18:10:37amiconnIn my patch it is also true when entering the wps
18:11:05kugelamiconn: I think _update should be tweaked then, to not only fully refresh on track change but also if id3 is available for the first time
18:16:29kugellike if (id3_was_null && id3_is_not_null_anymore) track_changed = true;
18:17:51amiconnIt seems to work even without that tweak...
18:18:19Unhelpfulamiconn: pixelma said you actually use the power == cancel mapping on ondio? i'm trying to decide whether i should mask that mapping in pictureflow with short power for the quit button.
18:18:45amiconnYes I do use that, and yes you should mask it
18:21:26***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" i'm *really* confused. :)
18:23:07amiconnkugel: Hmm, or maybe not. On c200, the wps now doesn't redraw when entering it from the main menu when music is playing
18:23:45kugelwith your changes?
18:24:42Unhelpfuli guess the question now is, "when should i mask a normal core mapping with a new action?". there are a number of targets where i've done basically the same thing as ondio, and assigned long power as quit because CONTEXT_STD maps short power to cancel
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18:24:49paulkHello !
18:25:05kugelamiconn: I think that's because the initial gui_wps_display call is missing. with your changes it's delayed until the first timeout
18:25:28amiconnThe timeout is < 1 second afaik?
18:25:33paulkI found how to see if a sansa e250 is a V1, V2 or R (Without showing the firmware number)
18:25:40kugeldoes it not redraw at all?
18:25:44paulkyo maybe always know it...
18:25:57kugelit should be 0.2s
18:26:04saratogaarchivator: are you trying to convert an fft to fixed point?
18:26:04amiconnNo. It only redraws when the track changes, either manually or automatically
18:26:15gevaertspaulk: except that refurbished players have random case backs...
18:26:30gevaertsMy e280 e.g. says e280v2 there
18:26:42Unhelpfulsaratoga: i believe he is... for a spectrum visualizer. do you know a good, free fixed-point FFT?
18:26:56saratogayeah we have a few in rockbox
18:27:20paulkcan't we put the old firmware version on the new Sansa e250v2 ?
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18:27:46Unhelpfulsaratoga: somebody should tell him before he hurts himself ;)
18:28:05PaulJam_paulk: no, they have entirely different hardware in the inside.
18:28:13paulkoh, ok...
18:28:30kugelamiconn: weird
18:29:10kugelamiconn: "wps_state.id3 = audio_current_track();" is removed too, maybe id3 is null on the c200 now (thus no refresh)
18:29:31saratogai deleted the old fft.c from libwma a while ago, but its still in the svn history and its quite simple compared to what you had in your patch I think
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18:34:50*amiconn needs to think about this a bit more
18:34:59amiconnThe wps code is rather messy....
18:35:27amiconngui_wps_display(), gui_wps_update() and gui_wps_redraw() ...
18:35:58kugelit was messy before. I think it's rather OK now
18:38:46archivatorsaratoga: that'd be the 3rd library I'd use.. I'd rather figure out that one macro ..
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18:39:36Unhelpfularchivator: i would guess that if we had one inside rockbox already, that's a better starting point that a float fft.
18:39:41archivatorThat's in-place fft? Nice..
18:39:43kugelamiconn: it's relatively simple: only _redraw does actual drawing. _display checks for a valid wps before calling _redraw, _update handles id3 updates before calling _redraw
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18:40:44Unhelpfularchivator: perhaps not so nice for you, since you'd have to copy the data ;)
18:40:53archivatorUnhelpful: technically, we don't have it anymore :) Also, libspeex has that same library (kiss fft) but it's been converted to use libspeex datatypes and it'd be harder to port it back to "normal" datatypes..
18:41:34archivatorUnhelpful: I'd be copying the data in all cases, this one just doesn't require a separate output buffer.
18:41:35Unhelpfuli still think probably easier than porting from a float-based codebase that uses sin/cos
18:41:59saratogawe also had one in libfaad, but i deleted that one too
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18:43:27saratogayou'll need fft.c, fft.h, wmafixed.c and wmafixed.h
18:43:43archivatorsaratoga: Am I right to assume that there isn't a way to give it real input and I'd have to do the real->complex conversion myself? Not that it's that hard, it's just one more thing I might screw up :)
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18:44:07saratogawhat real to complex conversion?
18:44:16Unhelpfulreal->complex means adding 0-valued complex components
18:45:34archivatorThat's one way. Most libraries prefer to split the data throughout the array, placing some values in the imaginary components. It _should_ be faster.. See audacity's RealFFT and kiss fttr.
18:45:40gevaertsCan someone with arm knowledge help look at my latest patch in FS #10015? I get a data abort on gigabeat S, but not on e200
18:46:03saratogaoh that, yeah you'll have to interleave 0s in with each real datapoint
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18:46:56archivatorI wonder how messed up the results would be if I use right channel for real and left channel for imaginary :P
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18:47:45saratogayou can actually do that using the symetry of the fft
18:47:58saratogabut its probably easier to just sum the two channels and do an fft of one
18:48:29Unhelpfuli could swear that a 1D FFT of real data has real outputs...
18:48:46saratogait does not!
18:49:00archivatorsaratoga: That's what I'm currently doing, only I'm averaging. Have you looked at the pastebin? I *feel* like it's something obvious!
18:49:13saratogaIIRC a 1D FFT of real valued, even symetric data does though
18:51:05saratogaarchivator: i skimmed it briefly but didn't really understand it
18:51:25saratogai also didn't get your 1024 points to 512 real points remark
18:52:14kugelgevaerts: in your latest patch the buffer size isn't increased anymore? but that's probably not causing the data abort
18:52:27archivatorsaratoga: With 1024 real values, it only returns 512 complex values...
18:52:31kugelweird that the beast gets the data abort, not the e200. It's usualy vice versa
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18:53:16saratogaarchivator: you should be giving it 1024 complex values and getting 1024 complex values
18:53:36gevaertskugel: ah yes. I forgot that bit. And no, that shouldn't cause any issues (except that it won't get the speed benefits)
18:53:46saratogaunless you're throwing away the negative frequencies?
18:54:04archivatorsaratoga: is that the patch or the pastebin that you skimmed? The pastebin in question is : - my cos/sin work is shaky..
18:54:21webguest20hi :) I have a short question :D
18:54:28gevaertskugel: also, the data abort isn't really new. It's the reason why the old patch didn't do proper length handling
18:54:28amiconnkugel: Also _display always redraws fully, the other variants don't
18:54:41kugelgevaerts: I guess the beast specific code in the usb driver (for fixing the mbr) isn't causing a problem too?
18:54:57gevaertsthat shouldn't be involved at all
18:55:06webguest20would it be hard to port modules from ipodlinux?? Because they have a lot of interesting stuff there and its written in c, right? :D
18:55:48kugelamiconn: there's only 1 other variant, _update. This is the one called frequently and doesn't need to push full updates always
18:55:49saratogaarchivator: i'll look at it, but if your only problem is trig functions, you can precompute them
18:55:54saratogaand put them in a header file
18:56:00gevaertsthe data abort is in a bit only looks at control structures, not at actually transferred data
18:56:03kugelgevaerts: ok, no ideas then ;)
18:56:17kugelusb isn't my business
18:56:36archivatorsaratoga: What I'm doing is, I get N samples from the stream, pass them over to KISS FFT (as real values), it gives me back N/2 complex numbers, I take the magnitude, discarding the phase and plot it on the screen...
18:57:14amiconnkugel: Both of them call _redraw internally, which is also called directly from gui_wps_show (for peakmeters)
18:57:21saratogaQ15_DIV looks wrong
18:57:28saratogayou shouldn't need to be dividing anything
18:57:35kugelyes, but neither do actual drawing.
18:57:47archivatorsaratoga: that was shamelessly stolen from something..
18:58:01archivatorsaratoga: do you mean the macro or the usage?
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18:58:23saratogathe usage
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18:58:32saratogayou shouldn't be doing any fixed point divides in an fft
18:58:59saratogaand the algebra looks wrong
18:59:13Nicky2009would it be hard to port modules from ipodlinux?? Because they have a lot of interesting stuff there and its written in c, right? :D
19:00:06archivatorsaratoga: care to elaborate? I don't follow..
19:00:26saratogaQ15_DIV(sin << 15, 16384 << 15) is the same as Q15_DIV(sin, 16384) but with greater accuracy and should be same as sin >> 16 but much, much slower
19:00:34stripwaxsaratoga - I updated 9882 with some of things I'd described previously
19:00:56saratogastripwax: I saw, i'm in favor of commiting whenever you're ready
19:01:14archivatorsaratoga: I know, I put it in in desperation. Still, that's not the issue.
19:01:26archivator*despair, of course
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19:02:26stripwaxsaratoga - excellent. I'm running vorbis codec test on h120 at the moment, will update with results shortly
19:02:49saratogaarchivator: where do you think it breaks?
19:03:33saratogahave you tried computing these numbers in fp and comparing to your fixed code?
19:03:53archivatorsaratoga: in computing the actual sin() and cos() values. I don't think my version is equivalent to the floating point original.
19:04:00Nicky2009would it be hard to port modules from ipodlinux?? Because they have a lot of interesting stuff there and its written in c, right? :D
19:05:13archivatorsaratoga: I've only compared the final output and the only change between my fixed-point implementation and the original fixed-point mode lies in that macro - the original fixed-point code actually uses the sin() and cos() standard library functions, I am trying to replace them..
19:05:24saratogaarchivator: your DEGREESPERRADIAN is a float
19:05:35archivatorsaratoga: I know, phase is also a float.
19:05:43archivatorsaratoga: that's a temporary measure.
19:06:05saratogasin_int takes a float?
19:06:06bertrikNicky2009, yes it would be hard. Rockbox doesn't use modules for drivers. We can probably reuse some code, but it would take a lot of adaptation work.
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19:06:50Nicky2009k thx
19:06:54bertrikis this FFT meant to be used for some kind of exact analysis purpose, or do you want to use it to show some kind of realtime spectrum to the user?
19:07:26*gevaerts suspects that these ipodlinux modules may not be kernel modules.
19:07:44bertrikI think it would be nice to have a kind of logarithmic frequency scale
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19:08:15rasherYeah, he was probably talking about plugins.
19:08:35rasherThe matrix plugin was ported from an ipl module
19:08:45archivatorsaratoga: Nope. Huh, let me guess - a float->int implicit cast doesn't work the way I thought it does. Does 5.5 cast into 5 or some other value?
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19:09:20saratoga2well it will cast to 5 but probably not 5 in the fixed format you're using
19:09:21*kugel slaps archivator for even trying to rely on implicit casting
19:09:46saratoga2archivator: theres a function in the old fft that loads trig tables using fsincos
19:09:52saratoga2maybe you could just use it?
19:10:45saratoga2interestingly it does need to a do fixed div
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19:11:48archivatorsaratoga2: well, sin_int doesn't use a special format, it just expects degrees. phase*degreesperradian should give it exactly that..
19:12:18saratoga2it expects a fixed point number right?
19:14:27archivatorUhm, not a fractional one - just degrees - from 0 to 360 IIRC. Then it just returns the appropriate precompiled value in 18.14. I don't have the code with me right now, so I might be off on the details..
19:15:35saratoga2so it can only compute 360 total sin values?
19:15:49saratoga2thats not even enough for a 1024 point fft
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19:17:39archivatorsaratoga2: You have a point. I have an excuse though - I couldn't get the hang of that CORDIC implementation! I guess I need to sleep on it, my head'll surely explode if I see that code again..
19:18:26saratoga2archivator: i strongly recommend reusing an existing fft rather then developing your own, but if you want to go down that path take small steps
19:18:35saratoga2grab a fixed_to_float macro from somwhere
19:18:55saratoga2and compare the output of your code to what math.h does in fp until you get it to match
19:19:40saratoga2and definately look at the existing ffts which use CORDIC
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19:25:48*gevaerts doesn't see anything wrong :(
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19:27:09Unhelpfularchivator: if you want to convert a float value to fixed point, you'll need to multiply it by a scale value before casting to int
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19:27:46amiconnkugel: Iiuc the current wps code has a fundamental problem on targets with more than one display: gui_gwps_update() is called once per display, but only one will actually notice the track change
19:28:28amiconnThis seems wasteful
19:28:35amiconn...and not working properly
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19:29:14archivatorUnhelpful: In the 2nd case, it's not a fixed point one at all while in the 1st case, it uses the CORDIC notation (which maps 0 - 0xffffffff to 0 - 2pi)..
19:29:54Unhelpfuli kind of think we need a different CORDIC implementation that maps an even value to 2pi :/
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19:30:34kugelamiconn: hum?
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19:31:05kugelit calls _refresh with the gui_wps pointer, per screen
19:31:09amiconngui_wps_update() is called once per screen, i.e. twice on a target with an lcd remote
19:31:34amiconnAnd gui_wps_update() in turn calls audio_has_changed_track() i.e. this is also called twice
19:31:48amiconnBut it only returns true for one of the calls
19:32:07kugelthat's because we have 1 gui_wps struct per screen. the id3 part of each is identical, yes
19:32:14JdGordon9795 fixes that
19:32:19kugelor should be at least
19:32:35amiconnkugel: But it means that the second screen won't see a full refresh. Never.
19:32:49amiconn(apart from the initial full refresh in _dsiplay())
19:33:11kugelhm, right
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19:37:39JdGordonamiconn: instead of fiddling with wps, could I get you to help test and fix up 9795 which partly aims to remove alot of the refresh crud in thw wps?
19:37:53kugelamiconn: actually, that's not my bug too.
19:38:02amiconnI want a working resume, mainly
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19:39:04kugelamiconn: then I wonder why nobody has noticed that yet. either people don't look on their remote, or we actually don't need full refreshes
19:39:06amiconnAnd afaik that patch doesn't compile atm
19:39:13kugelthat bug definitely existed before my work
19:39:36amiconnkugel: The remote bug?
19:40:13amiconnI think a full redraw might be needed in *some* cases. Needs analysing
19:40:21JdGordonaudio_has_changed_track() is nasty and has been around for too long...
19:40:35amiconnIirc some people reported certain things not working in the remote wps. Maybe it is due to this bug
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19:44:14kugelthe id3 part of gui_wps is duplicated anyway. I'd propose to convert update (and maybe display too) to do for both screens, and change the struct gui_wps to have two wps states and displays (for each screen), but only 1 id3
19:44:49kugelinstead of having two gui_wps structs running, that is
19:45:01JdGordonits not duplicated... both wps_data structs point to the same id3 struct
19:45:18JdGordonthere needs to be 2 gui_wps structs
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19:46:48kugelJdGordon: apparently they only point to the same id3 until a track has changed. because then the main screen's id3 is changed, but not the remote's one
19:46:57amiconnSeems like I have a working fix for the resume problem which is still a simplification vs. svn
19:47:09JdGordonwhat resume problem?
19:47:14amiconnIt also redraws properly when reentering the wps, swcodec and hwcodec
19:47:27amiconnJdGordon: kugel's latest change broke resume on hwcodec
19:47:40*JdGordon did ask him to not do that commit :D
19:47:54amiconnThis is because it changed timing, and on hwcodec id3 is not immediately available on playback start
19:48:20JdGordonarg, yuck
19:48:36amiconn...and the wps functions in svn use the id3 navailability as a trigger for leaving
19:49:09amiconnThis is wrong logic anyway, the only check should be for audio_status()
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19:49:56kugelJdGordon: doesn't work?
19:50:35JdGordonhang on... the id3 struct has the track path which is the very least the WPS needs.. so hwcodec should behave the same as swcodec untill the real info is avilable (i.e return a blank mp3entry sturct with just the path filled in)
19:50:38kugelamiconn: which is again not my fault, but rather coincidence.
19:51:11amiconnkugel: I didn't say it's your fault, just that your commit triggered it
19:51:17JdGordonkugel: thats no better than the current struct
19:51:41JdGordonkugel: also, state is correct in the current one... its a shared struct
19:52:01amiconnThis is what I have now:
19:52:09kugelJdGordon: Have you read which bug we have with this way?
19:52:43kugelgui_wps_update will only change the id3 pointer of the main screen, not for the remote, since audio_track_has_changed only returns true for the main screen
19:53:09kugelnew pointer for the main, old for the remote. That sounds more than nasty.
19:53:16*JdGordon is still waking up...
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19:53:48JdGordonamiconn: yeah that looks ok... just fyi gui_wps_update() should never be able to actually return false...
19:54:00amiconnIt currently does
19:54:08JdGordonby should I mean its return false coedpath is dead code 99% f the time
19:54:25amiconnBut then, this return stuff can go in one of the next steps, as it's not checked anymore
19:54:49JdGordonkugel: thats not correct.... id3 is in wps_state which is shared by the screens.... it only needs to be updated on the first display
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19:55:13amiconnJdGordon: What was the problem again with your patch (apart from not compiling atm)?
19:55:30amiconnIt may be that it had to do with this id3 status problem
19:55:35kugelshared? how?
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19:56:13JdGordonamiconn: no, the hwcodec problem was unrelated.. turns out I had the send_event() call 1 line too early, its fixed now... currently it looks like it brings up issues which are in svn but not so obvious
19:56:14amiconnJdGordon: The second display needs to know when it was updated though. Atm it doesn't
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19:57:19JdGordonkugel: guiwps[i].state = &gui_state
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19:57:32kugelah yea, I just saw it
19:57:53JdGordonamiconn: ok fair enough... that might be a problem also, I havnt paid much attention to the remote lcd
19:59:09JdGordonah no, 9795 shouldnt have that bug... I've added a var to wps_state to make sure it does a full refresh which isnt unset untill after both screens are done
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20:05:52*JdGordon now has a more annoying job ahead of resyncing :/
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20:14:44rasheramiconn: do you have any ideas about the voice-building trouble on the users list?
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20:25:58*kugel needs remote testers
20:26:08*domonoky knows why rbutil fails to generate a voice for 3.2. There is no revision number in rockbox-info.txt for the release. But genlang.cgi needs a revision number.
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20:28:33domonokyperhaps we should introduce a extra revision field in rockbox-info.txt for this.
20:29:05domonokyor modify genlang.cgi to take 3.2 as revision input :-)
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20:30:34rasherThe latter sounds simpler
20:30:35*JdGordon agrees that one of them should happen :)
20:33:41domonokybut the first is probably more future proof, should we decide to reformat the version entry again :-)
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20:41:25kugeldoesn't voice building need to know about the release anyway?
20:42:06kugelthe voice must be based off the release branch, not on the trunk (the revision number alone doesn't tell about whether it's a release or not)
20:42:07domonokyno it just needs to know the current revision on the player, to generate a matching voice.
20:43:17domonokyah.. no you are correct... genlang.cgi needs to pull from the right branch..
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20:52:06*bluebrother wonders why he assigned some rbutil issues to himself. Not because he is working on it?
20:53:22kugelJdGordon: do you plan on syncing 9795 soon?
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20:53:48bluebrotherdomonoky: what is that change to the themesite stuff?
20:53:55JdGordondepends if anyone is going to break gwps-common again
20:54:04JdGordonbut yes, today hopefully
20:54:18domonokybluebrother: theme site now needs a target name instead of the screensize
20:54:30bluebrotherwhy that?
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20:55:16bluebrotheralso, why a function named camelCase_WithUnderscores?
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20:55:45rasherbluebrother: Because we use the checkwps results to filter out non-working themes. Can't do that with just a screensize
20:56:25bluebrotherso you're running checkwps on each access?
20:56:42*kugel hoped he was able to download h300 themes for his fuze (once it's supporte)
20:56:46domonokybluebrother: and the naming of this funcions could be improved. i just want to really make clear what modelname this is. (we have 3 different targenname lists now, and there was much confusion)
20:58:13bluebrotherwell, I was looking into that issue these days and I'd like to clear that up instead of adding more list handling
20:58:56rasherbluebrother: no, we store checkwps results for all targets matching the theme's resolution
20:59:19bluebrotherbesides, I don't think FS #10055 is a good solution −− the displayed size is still ambigous if you have multiple themes selected. I changed that locally the other day but was offline.
20:59:21domonokybluebrother: yes, clearing it up would be good. but you cant collapse those 3 lists into one. there are subtile differences in it..
20:59:59bluebrotherwell, we can at least collapse two lists. Just compare the target name and the section name. There are two differences:
21:00:29bluebrother(1) sansas have a "sansa" prefix, and iaudios an "iaudio". I have no idea why and I bet we could scrap those.
21:00:38domonokywhich target name ? :-) the one from the build-server or the one from configure ? :-)
21:01:00domonokybluebrother: because configure doesnt name them "sansa.." but just e200
21:01:07bluebrother(2) postfixes to indicate bootloader stuff, as in h10_5gbums. We could mark that as a special extension and handle it internally
21:01:21bluebrotherdomonoky: yes, but the file for download is
21:01:43domonokyyes, thats because thats the targetname from the buildserver...
21:01:57bluebrothercheck tools/release/
21:02:11*kugel doesn't see anything wrong with the model name prepended
21:02:15bluebrotherso the question is: *why* is there a difference in the binary on the download server?
21:02:20*bluebrother slaps kugel
21:02:28domonokyfor things like comparing to rockbox-info or genlang, you need the modelname from configure
21:02:29kugelimagine we supported sansa e100 and irivier e100
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21:02:52domonokythere are differences, because there are more binarys then, configure modelnames..
21:02:58bluebrotherkugel: please make yourself familiar with the issue itself first.
21:03:16bluebrotherthe problem isn't some prefix but a *difference* in various places
21:03:58bluebrothereither make all modelnames the form manufacturer-model, which would be the cleanest solution
21:04:29bluebrotheror keep it the current way, which means e200 is e200. Then I don't see a point in adding a prefix to the output zip file on the server
21:04:44bluebrotheras that means we have (yet another) special case
21:04:51kugelI prefer the former one too
21:05:09kugeli use 50, and not e200, for configure anyway
21:05:17domonokythe 3 list have a different size, so its not easy to combine them.
21:05:35bluebrotherBagder: any reason to use sansae200 instead of e200 as the configure model name is for the binary download?
21:05:51bluebrotherdomonoky: what lists are you talking about?
21:05:58bluebrotheri.e. what lists exactly?
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21:06:14domonokyie what target names the different things know..
21:06:46domonokyrbutil distinuguishes more targets, then the buildserver, and the build server has more targets then configure..
21:07:18domonokyfor example fmrecorder8mb is "fmrecoder" in configure, but "fmrecoder8mb" for the build server..
21:07:52bluebrotherso how can we detect an fmrecorder8mb build via rockbox-info.txt?
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21:08:02bluebrotheror even without that?
21:08:14domonokyyou cant.
21:08:25domonokybut we can detect it via the rbutil.log
21:08:28bluebrotherso we have a problem here. And that's the issue
21:08:45domonokyrockbox-info.txt will give fmrecoder (which is save)
21:08:46bluebrotherdomonoky: you sure? rbutil.log logs the files, not the zip filename
21:08:58bluebrotherbut it's wrong
21:09:02domonokywe also store rbutils internal targetname in it..
21:09:23bluebrotheron x5v we'll get x5 which is correct in terms of the main build but wrong in terms of the bootloader
21:09:33domonokythere are more targets with such problems..
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21:10:07bluebrotheryes. And we should think about a better solution than the current one
21:10:58domonokyofcourse it would be good to make a better solution. but that wont be fast because you have to change, configure/buildserver and rbutil.
21:11:26bluebrotherwell, adding more complexity will hit use later.
21:11:48bluebrotherso I don't see a reason to not do it. Speed isn't an issue IMO.
21:12:28bluebrotherit just needs to get coordinated. And maybe some mod_rewrite magic to support the old naming for at least a while the same time
21:12:34*domonoky doesnt have a idea to get a better solution for this problem..
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21:13:36bluebrotherfirst, remove the sansae200 vs e200 thing (same for c200 and m5, x5 and m3)
21:13:52domonokymy change didnt add complexity to rbutil. it just made it really clear which targetname is what. They were a few wrong uses there.. (for example the "target missmatch" warning)
21:14:30bluebrotherthe target mismatch warning has a bug by itself (which I introduced a while back, because of this e200 vs sansae200 thing)
21:14:56bluebrotherand I'm everything but happy about the settings anyway
21:15:03 Quit kushalone ("This computer has gone to sleep. Macs are like babies. They need a lot of sleep. :)")
21:15:32domonokysure. But its fixed for now, and can be improved later :-)
21:15:40*bluebrother grmbls
21:15:51bluebrotherhaving it fixed means people forget about it ...
21:16:20domonokywhich "people" ? :-)
21:16:45domonokynot fixing means no new release with working themes.. :-)
21:17:42bluebrotherwhy hasn't some basic compatibility been remained on the theme site at least for the moment anyway?
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21:18:33bluebrotherbtw, there's also a question on how to figure if a theme is working on a build. We have the tested build and the installed one, but those don't necessarily need to support the same wps tags
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21:19:24bluebrotherwhy aren't we using a wps "api" version number for that anyway?
21:19:33domonokyback to the targetname problem: renaming some names (ie sansa prefix, ipodmini(1g) ) is a first step, but the hard thing still remains, what todo with binarys configure doesnt know. Or targets with different bootloader, but same main binary?
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21:21:44domonokybluebrother: i think the theme site change made it impossible to support the old api.. (because of the way themes are stored in the db).. and ofcourse rasher didnt thought about rbutil :-)
21:21:45bluebrotherwe could consider introducing some "extras" line in rockbox-info.txt for indicating f.e. fmrecorder8mb −− configure needs to know that we selected 8mb anyway, so we _do_ have the information.
21:22:16rasherdomonoky: well the old way of displaying themes based solely on display size was completely broken
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21:22:51bluebrotherlet me guess: you can't distinguish between rtc and non-rtc targets f.e. ;)
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21:27:37rasherWell it's mostly a question of screen depth - some themes will work on targets that don't matcht hte screen depth, some won't. Relying on checkwps is the best option
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21:29:34bluebrotherrasher: any idea on how to deal with wps syntax changes? Checking the installed build version against checkwps results works for releases but will fail on non-release binaries
21:31:36rasherbluebrother: I'd say as long as you show only release or only themes that work with a current build, it's fine
21:31:47rasherIf the user is using an outdated svn build, he should just upgrade
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21:33:55bluebrotherwell, I'd prefer to be able indicating this problem to the user
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21:34:38*bluebrother needs to finish the settings rework done
21:34:52bluebrothertoo bad it's getting more complicated every time :(
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21:47:13rasherbluebrother: that would require testing all themes against all revisions. Not feasible if you ask me.
21:48:30bluebrotherrasher: and how about simply having some "wps api" version number?
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21:55:11*obo sees bluebrother and domonoky around...
21:55:28oboany objections to me trying to get rbutil mentored into debian?
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21:56:13domonokyobo: no real objections. just that the current release is a bit broken, and we will release a new on shortly :-)
21:56:24bluebrothermentored into debian? What's mentoring in that sense?
21:56:41oboas in building a package, and getting a debian mentor to upload it for me
21:57:04bluebrotherah. Does that mean regular package updates?
21:57:15obohopefully :)
21:57:45gevaertsobo: maybe you should go for
21:57:55oboif someone could rename install and base/uninstall to something else so the target names in the makefile work properly that'd be nice too :)
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21:58:39gevaertsI mean, from what I understand rbutil is reasonably stable (in the speed of change sense) now, but debian releases still are two year things...
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21:59:05obogevaerts: do you think rbutil is fast moving enough to justify that?
21:59:21rasherobo: you may be interested in FS #9233
22:00:36gevaertsobo: maybe bluebrother and domonoky can answer this better, but do we expect that the rbutil version around at squeeze release time will be usable two years later?
22:00:48oborasher: ah, thanks, I hadn't seen that. But the latest rbutil release included a source tarball for the first time, (with apps + tools etc) which made life fairly easy
22:00:54*BigBambi doesn't :)
22:01:06bluebrotherwell, I'd say no
22:01:30gevaertsit's a nice goal, but I think that it's not realistic
22:01:51domonokyfor this, we would need a self-updating rbutil :-)
22:01:58bluebrotherthe problem is that we at least in the past had changes to targets, install methods and server-side stuff quite a couple of times
22:01:59rasherdomonoky: that won't fly
22:02:20bluebrotherdomonoky: now self-update a program that comes from the package manager
22:02:26rasherMaybe this needs discussion by Debian people
22:02:37obookay, volatile does sound a little more sane :)
22:02:37gevaertsI think volatile is the right place for it
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22:05:31*ufoman is glad that chkdsk was able to fix all errors on his x5's disk
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22:14:25kugelpetur: hi :)
22:14:37*petur runs
22:14:40*gevaerts thinks that the bin/ram cost of this usb commit is quite reasonable :)
22:18:41kugelgevaerts: you're just lucky that quadrupling the buffer doesn't affect those
22:19:24kugelwhat was the beast issue, btw?
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22:21:33***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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22:22:15gevaertsthis is basically a linked list, with the last one marked by a "1" value. Apparently that gets transformed to a 0 by hardware (or maybe I didn't look carefully), so I ended up dereferencing a null pointer
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22:23:00rashergevaerts: Whoa, huge increase on the zens?
22:23:36gevaertsrasher: yes. I think the buffer is static on those
22:24:34kugelgevaerts: you nearly broke the 4M ram usage milestone on the zen vision
22:24:54*kugel considers this as fail :p
22:25:08gevaertskugel: not my fault! mcuelenaere needs to find his zvm and fix this! :)
22:25:13stripwaxsaratoga - (if you're reading) - I just tried slapping in the ARM bitwise optimisations from Tremolo (and the naive way of doing that requires taking out the rockbox(tm) optimisations for huffman decode from FS #6848) - decode speed is down. I expect a non-naive integration would have better results but not clear if it would be a big improvement
22:28:36kugelgevaerts: *not* breaking the 4M is failure! You've had your chance
22:30:26gevaertskugel: wait until I add buffering :)
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22:31:53saratogastripwax: I'm on my way out, but can you post a patch of the bitwise merge stuff you did somewhere?
22:32:00saratogai'd like to look at it eventually
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22:45:11bluebrotherrasher: it would be better to have the "you need to update rbutil" message as [error] instead of [status] −− it _is_ an error
22:45:58bluebrotherplus, it helps with the current issue of rbutil not showing the [status] msg if no themes are available
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22:49:18rasherbluebrother: but so far there is no new rbutil, so it's a bit unfair
22:50:04bluebrotherwell, an error is fatal. This issue is fatal.
22:50:24bluebrotherit's unfair to change the behaviour of the website without having an updated rbutil either ;-)
22:50:52rasherbluebrother: better now?
22:51:13bluebrotheryes :)
22:52:02kugelwhy the hell does rockbox usb not work here, is it jaunty?
22:52:30kugelseems it worked now...
22:52:47bluebrothernow this rises the question: should the [status] msg not getitng displayed if no themes are found get considered an error or not?
22:54:01amiconngevaerts: Do you have an idea what happened to the creative zen target wrt deltas?
22:57:10gevaertsamiconn: for some reason mcuelenaere allocated the buffer statically there instead of stealing the audio buffer like we do on other targets
22:57:44gevaertsAnd I increased the USB storage buffer, to actually make use of these chained descriptors
22:58:13amiconnAh, so the zens use the arc driver?
22:58:36gevaertsno. This is the UMS buffer
22:59:05gevaertsIt used to use 16k for SCSI tranfers, now it uses 64k
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22:59:13amiconnAh, yeds
22:59:47amiconnStill, the RAM increase is ~96KB while the buffer increase is only half of that
23:00:34amiconnDoes the storage driver use double buffering?
23:00:50gevaertsah yes. Actually, when I say 16k and 64k, I mean 32k and 128k... UMS uses double buffering
23:01:00jhMikeSgevaerts: IMX31 statically allocates the buffer but that RAM useage isn't included in the measurements. I'm not sure how to fix that up yet.
23:01:03amiconnWell, that explains it
23:01:22gevaertsjhMikeS: ah yes, a different section?
23:01:27*amiconn thinks the zens should use the audio buffer like the other targets
23:01:42bluebrotherrasher: can you make rbutilqt.php not include error 14 if accessed properly (i.e. using target=)?
23:02:00rasherbluebrother: hang on
23:02:01jhMikeSgevaerts: yes, that 1MB device section which should perhaps be rethought
23:02:29jhMikeSnow that memory is mapped flat after moving the framebuffer
23:02:36*gevaerts has some vague ideas about caching a lot more data to reduce disk traffic and maybe improve speed, which would use all of the audio buffer...
23:03:20amiconnWrite caching is potentially dangerous, and I don't think read caching would make much sense
23:03:40rasherbluebrother: done (I hope)
23:04:00n1sgevaerts: how does rockbox usb speeds compare to OF speeds now?
23:04:16gevaertsI know. Write caching should only be done if we actually tell the host OS about that
23:06:09gevaertsn1s: e200 numbers at
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23:07:05n1sgevaerts: ah, looks nice :)
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23:07:20gevaertsata targets need FS #9708 to really make use of this :)
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23:09:04*gevaerts needs to redo lots of speed tests
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23:12:01bluebrotherrasher: looks good now :)
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23:14:03coffeetimehey gang...I own a iriver e100 (bought it last year in Korea)....will there be a support for it?
23:14:46Bagdercoffeetime: sure go ahead and make it
23:15:20 Quit {phoenix} (Remote closed the connection)
23:15:57coffeetimeBagder: having a bad day?
23:16:16gevaertsWe're now 15 to 20% slower than the OF on write on e200, and 25% faster on read. I think that counts as good enough to be usable
23:16:17Bagderwhat makes you think that?
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23:16:50coffeetimeBagder: you
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23:17:17n1sgevaerts: definitely
23:17:31gevaertsnow building for ipod 5g
23:17:34Bagdergevaerts: interesting that it can be a significant diff in both directions like that
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23:18:56gevaertsBagder: indeed. It does confirm the feeling that the OF doesn't really make use of the full hardware potential though
23:19:02*n1s does some benchmarking on the beast
23:19:07Bagdervery true
23:19:29Unhelpfulcoffeetime: people work on rockbox in their spare time. for a new device to be supported, somebody who has one has to figure out how. that's pretty much the only way devices get support. there is no "plan" to support any specific device at any specific future date.
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23:20:24coffeetimeUnhelpful: now, that's an answer. thank you
23:20:43coffeetimeBagder: pecae brother..don't smoke too much
23:20:51Unhelpfulit's pretty much a longer way of saying what he did, and what you'll find on our wiki.
23:21:01Bagdercoffeetime: you're reading something into my words that I didn't write
23:22:34coffeetimeUnhelpful: did look at wiki, but it was just a simple question
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23:22:58scorcheand he answered with a simple drop it..
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23:24:06bluebrotherBagder: is there a reason why some targets use different names for the resulting zip than the target name? As in e200 is, same for c200 and Iaudios
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23:24:22coffeetimescorche: what's your problem?
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23:24:57gevaertscoffeetime: it seems to me that if everyone says the same thing and one person sees problems, it's clear who actually has a problem
23:25:14Bagderbluebrother: no, I think it's just inconsistencies
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23:25:31n1sgevaerts: my real world test of copying a flac album of 364 megs shows a speedup of ~ 40% on the beast :)
23:25:37Bagderbluebrother: I guess we've thought that the shorter version was a bit too vague
23:25:43jhMikeSgevaerts: The beast already has #9708 :)
23:25:45gevaertsn1s: not bad at all :)
23:25:52coffeetimegevaerts: wtf? I just asked something I do not know?
23:26:15jhMikeSn1s: how does the beast compare with OF? Does anyone know?
23:26:21bluebrotherwell, currently it's a bit of a problem. I stubled across it with rbutil (the install mismatch detection I broke a bit back to be exact).
23:26:26n1sjhMikeS: no idea
23:26:28gevaertscoffeetime: ports are done by people who own the hardware, like you.
23:26:31scorchecoffeetime: and you are responding to those answers with hostility...please stop
23:26:40kugelrasher: how long does the confirmation email take usually?
23:26:54rasherkugel: no idea
23:26:56jhMikeSn1s: what is the actual speed there? it looks faster :)
23:27:04coffeetimescorche: what? do you know the MTOW of AN24?
23:27:04bluebrothercan we easily change that names (as in: also provide some mod_rewrite magic to make older rbutil versions not break)?
23:27:12n1sjhMikeS: unrelated, when starting my beast it alwyas shows an empty battery for a few seconds, is that normal and dou you think it can be "fixed" ?
23:27:39jhMikeSn1s: no, it's not normal to my knowledge
23:27:56scorchecoffeetime: i have no idea what you are referring to, but i doubt it has anything to do with rockbox...this channel is about rockbox topics only...
23:28:10coffeetimescorche: so you see...
23:28:22n1sthe speed went from 9,4MB/s to 13.4MB/s copying a flac album to the beast
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23:28:49n1sjhMikeS: so likely a dying battery?
23:29:08jhMikeSn1s: hmmm, if the test_disk results with UDMA mean anything, it can't get much faster
23:29:35jhMikeSn1s: if it has severe voltage sag under load, then it might be
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23:34:31kugelsubscribing to rockbox mls takes long too
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23:35:19kugelunsubscribing was blazing fast though :/
23:36:05*kugel something makes me think my new email doesn't work yet
23:36:33cr08Curious. What are the usual files involved with the secondary (post-bootloader) boot logo? Tried to do some patching for my target but now I have a garbled screen for that logo I need to fix and can't recall exactly -which- files and where...
23:37:13gevaertsOn ipod we're still a lot slower than the OF, even with FS #9708
23:38:14 Part coffeetime ("Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away")
23:38:27gevaerts11.5MB/s read, 8.6MB/s write. The OF gets 14.7 and 14.0
23:39:47n1sgevaerts: so the flash(driver) is limiting on the sansas i suppose?
23:40:01gevaertsn1s: yes
23:40:27gevaertsIIRC I got 12MB/s or so if I take out the actual reads and writes
23:41:18gevaertsInterestingly, UDMA is *faster* than using a ramdisk, because the test ramdisk code adds a memcpy :)
23:42:27gevaerts(at least it was, with the new speedups I'm not sure)
23:45:05Horschtbut it's still randomly loosing connection, possibly causing data loss, correct?
23:45:20gevaertsit shouldn't
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23:46:38Horschtmy own current build (rev 20559) has had that issue
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23:47:55JdGordonhow do people feel about what 9886 is trying to do? i.e rework how the wps uses its ram so that people who dont want fancy WPS' can reclaim some, and those that want crazy fancy WPS can steal more than allowed currently
23:48:04*JdGordon isnt usre if he should bother syncing or not
23:48:38gevaertsHorscht: do you have more details?
23:49:04 Quit DJ_Igloo (Client Quit)
23:49:10Horschtwell, apart from it disconnected while i was transfering all my music: no, sorry
23:49:18Horschtit happened when I was not on my PC
23:49:26gevaertsI mean, like OS, player model,...
23:49:39 Quit perrikwp (Client Quit)
23:49:46Horschtah, ok. WinXP SP3, Ipod Video 5.5G 80GB
23:50:14Horschtit was ~54GB of Data/Music
23:50:32gevaertsDid you have issues earlier, or did they start at about r20344?
23:50:40*gevaerts tries some random guesses
23:51:18Horschti can't realy tell... Until about a week ago i was using the Apple OF
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23:51:47HorschtI only started using rockbox again after i was able to build the tool that creates the DB while the ipod is connected to the PC
23:52:07Horschtbefore that, the last build I used was an early 19000 build
23:52:08n1sJdGordon: do you need to reboot if you want to load a wps that needs more ram?
23:52:08gevaertsdid you see this once, or has it happened several times?
23:52:58HorschtI only noticed it once, after that I went back to the OF to transfer files (as it is a lot faster for me than the Emergency Disk Mode)
23:53:04JdGordonn1s: when its finished you will if the new one needs more ram than you have allocated
23:53:34*gevaerts needs to think about this, but not today
23:53:43Horschtit was actualy the first time i tried the rockbox usb mode
23:53:55Horschtand until now, the last time :)
23:53:57n1sJdGordon: that sounds annoying to me
23:54:23JdGordonallocated != usage though... you can leave it much higher than needed if you want
23:54:44n1suh, how would i do that?
23:54:45JdGordonbut for now the size is static the same as svn
23:54:48*gevaerts really hates the fact that USB needs undocumented PortalPlayer magic that may be different depending on the player...
23:55:52n1sJdGordon: i just think of the case: new user wants to try a bunch of themes and in the worst case scenario needs to reboot on every change
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23:56:21JdGordonwell the default would be about the same size as svn so it wouldnt be such a problem
23:56:22kugeln1s: iirc allocating is a setting
23:56:43HorschtI have to go to bed now.
23:56:45Horschtgood night
23:56:46kugelor is my memory wrong?
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23:56:54n1sa setting, reallY?
23:57:00JdGordonyou could set it to say 2MB untill you find the theme you like and then set it to whats actually used when you have decided
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23:57:29JdGordonthe patch as it is now just buf_alloc()'s the same size as svn statically allocs now
23:57:30n1si dont' like that idea
23:57:43*gevaerts thinks that if we have too many settings for things like this, malloc starts to sound like a useful thing...
23:57:47n1s(the setting and the rebooting)
23:58:18JdGordonn1s: other than that... yes/no? I mean normal people would never have to resize the buffer
23:58:23JdGordonhow often do you change themes?
23:58:41JdGordonand like I said, you would only need to reboot if you want a theme that uses more ram than you have allowed
23:58:55n1sand we can get into situations where one setting limits the range of another etc

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