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#rockbox log for 2009-04-02

00:00:03fmllinuxstb: no, I didn't compare. But I think loading a file is not a time critical operation.
00:00:24bluebrotherBdN3504: latex also outputs its log to a file by itself. Check the manual folder in the build folder for rockbox-build.log
00:00:45linuxstbfml: Also, are those bounds checks really needed in set_cell ? Does the code make many calls to that with invalid cells?
00:00:46fmllinuxstb: and buffering (to some degree) is made at the file IO level anyway
00:00:53bluebrotherwell, you need a somewhat recent LaTeX distro to get utf8 support which is crucial
00:01:27bluebrothera workaround would be to install the unicode package and use utf8x in the preamble instead of utf8
00:01:39 Quit krazykit ("bbiab")
00:01:55BigBambiBdN3504: OK, done
00:02:00fmllinuxstb: yes, they could be reduced. They are mainly because of the file (whose size, i.e. dimensions, is unknown)
00:02:39fmllinuxstb: once a grid has been established, some checks can be dropped
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00:03:36fmllinuxstb: Ok, it's not urgent at all, I just wanted to let you know. I'll leave now.
00:04:05BdN3504kool, thanks bigbambi
00:04:19linuxstbfml: I think you're just being _too_ paranoid ;)
00:04:21BdN3504and all the others helping me, too of course!
00:05:00fmllinuxstb: he-he. An old habit :-) But it's better than to be too trustful.
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00:07:00BdN3504bye guys!
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01:22:43Munkiei need to know what this means with apple accepting rockbox as their developers?
01:23:05ufomanMunkie: check the date
01:24:00Munkieyes i know, but does this mean we are going to see the video supported on the ipod video anytime soon?
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01:24:22Munkiesigh nm
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01:26:21STUthanks for the help, byeee
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04:10:35TBOL3Ok, I just saw the homepage, very funny, but what would a new user think?
04:11:13scorcheif they dont know about the existence of april fools day, then i wouldnt want them as a user anyway >_>
04:12:19TBOL3Ya, that's fine. But I don't see anywhere on the page to indicate that it's a joke (except for the ludicrasness of the claim).
04:13:29scorchefirst off, all builds are still available to be downloaded....secondly, the SVN log can still be seen if you simply click on the subversion link
04:13:56scorcheoverall, is a joke...things will return to normal in a matter of hours
04:14:35TBOL3I noticed that (contrary to what the topic of this channel says. :) ), but I think that a user is even more likely to realize it's a joke, before looking at the history.
04:15:14scorchethen what is the issue?
04:15:16TBOL3Oh, yes, it's increadibly humorus, infact you were the first (and only people) to actuly get me, at least until I read the post about apple working for you, and then I knew... still funny.
04:15:40TBOL3I'm just wondering what a new user would think. But oh well, it's still funny.
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04:16:09TBOL3Oh, and thank you for not turning the whole site pink (making it increadibly difficult to read, like a certain forum I will not mention).
04:16:14krazykitTBOL3, i guess it would be infortuitous for them, then, if they didn't get it
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04:20:42TBOL3You know, just a thought, and it would probably be a breach of copyright law anyway, it would be increadibly funny if the site was changed to look like an apple webpage. :)
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04:30:23scorchebut what would the new users think?!
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05:20:30Pjstaabso rockbox is lame now?
05:22:47*Unhelpful facepalms
05:24:24PjstaabCan you explain?
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05:35:23atiroxIs there anyone here with Wikiedit privilages?
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05:36:32atiroxIs anyone here?
05:36:39cool_walking_yeah, I do
05:36:57atiroxsweet. i found an error on the CreativeZEN page
05:37:21atiroxhere is the link. ""
05:37:22cool_walking_Why not sign up and fix it (and anything else you find) yourself?
05:37:32atiroxcause i need privilages...
05:37:40atiroxand im too lazy to get them.
05:38:01cool_walking_You just ask. Any wiki user with write access can give it to any other user.
05:38:30cool_walking_It's just to stop spambots.
05:38:43atiroxokay, ummm... could you give the privilages to AdamHodacsek?
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07:52:10Unhelpful<Unhelpful> ok, i'm redoing the pictureflow quit button mapping a bit. any target that uses power for cancel just gets that masked by the quit action, as long as there's any other button for cancel. the ones that use power for menu use long power for quit, as do ones that use power for cancel and lack another cancel button (only D2 so far?)
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08:17:14midgeyany reason the j=j++ warning in rocklife hasnt been fixed yet?
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08:26:49midgeyanyway, i fixed the yellow. the behavior appears unchanged.
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09:10:36Mode"#rockbox +o B4gder " by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
09:11:15Topic" | Please read before speaking:" by B4gder (n=daniel@rockbox/developer/bagder)
09:11:28Mode"#rockbox -o B4gder " by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
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09:44:38cuanHi. Has anyone got the serial port on the ipod photo to work?
09:47:48linuxstbcuan: I believe Rockbox supports it, yes.
09:48:01linuxstb(for talking to Apple accessories, in a limited way).
09:51:44cuanlinuxstb: The apple accesory protocol does not seem to work on my photo. If i look at the IAP PACKETS, they remain 00. I was hoping to find out if anyone else has this problem.
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09:53:50linuxstbcuan: Do you have more than one accessory to test? Also, have you enabled the "accessory power" option? I don't really know anything about it, so can't help any more...
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09:59:59cuanlinuxstb: Yes i do have the acccesory power option enabled, but it thatmakes no difference. Thanks for the help.
10:03:16gartralis there any particular reason the option to set the center margin in pictureflow is labeled as "Centre margin" or may I correct this and submit a patch?
10:03:50Unhelpfuli'm not sure why it's in need of correction?
10:04:02GodEaterthe spelling
10:04:07GodEaterhe seems to think we use US englisgh
10:04:10GodEaterEnglish even
10:04:15GodEaterwhich we don't
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10:05:04gartralok, iv'e just never seen :center" spelled that way
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10:06:00webmindisn't centre french?
10:06:04GodEatergartral, that's how it's spelt in Britain
10:06:13GodEaterand Rockbox uses British English
10:06:40gartralGodEater: I knew that, but didn't know that spelling
10:07:43scorchewebmind: that too
10:11:53gartralscorche: so is it something that could be fixed, or left alone?
10:12:25scorche<GodEater> gartral, that's how it's spelt in Britain <GodEater> and Rockbox uses British English
10:13:04gartralcould have just said "no" webmind's comment through me off there
10:13:48GodEaterok "No" then ;)
10:14:17GodEaterunless your patch is going to introduce language settings to the plugins ? :)
10:15:51gartrals// through/threw (stupid auto correct)
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10:25:28Zagorwhat's an ALDI?
10:25:52Zagoroh "cheap shop"
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10:27:08Zagorwrong channel :)
10:27:55B4gderor right...
10:28:19B4gderbtw, we should ask for more people (on the ml) to add their preferences
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12:42:49BdN3504hey b4gder! i already said this before here, but the problem still hasn't been dealt with. accessing manual on the front page makes themes disappear.
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12:45:07BdN3504i want to add this to the patch tracker. it adds a little helpful description on how to use vbrfix in the manual. is there anything speaking against it?
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12:47:28Zagormanual page fixed
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13:07:53B4gdermaybe MrSomeone should respond there
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13:12:06BigBambigartral: In fact, there are other uses of center than need to be fixed to centre if you fancy it
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14:10:50MTlinuxstb : ping
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14:23:38***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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14:33:00linuxstbMT: Hello.
14:33:21linuxstbMT: Did you read the IRC logs from after you left yesterday?
14:33:43MTlinuxstb : hi, I just wanted to give you the link to a svn repo I created yesterday ..
14:34:08MTlinuxstb : yes I did, and I saw what merbanan told you about fixed-point FFT
14:34:44MTbut I believe saratoga's wma decoder has implemented it .. and we could use it, for rockbox at least.
14:36:12 Quit moos ("Rockbox rules the DAP world")
14:36:16linuxstbI don't know about that (I never look too closely at the insides of codecs), but I was hoping that would be the case.
14:36:28MTlinuxstb : <−− I've added the parser and the 4 samples I'm currently working with
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14:38:11MTcode isn't that tidy though :)
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14:38:44GodEateruntidy code is better than no code
14:38:48GodEaterin most cases ;)
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14:39:55funmanFlynDice: I've tried to map the IRAM & SDRAM at different locations (not flat mapped) and it seems to work, but crash early
14:40:07MTI'll clean it up of course, but I'll worry about that later, not now :)
14:40:23funmanI link the bootloader to execute from 0x81000000 (IRAM alias), and map the SDRAM at 0x0
14:41:05FlynDicefunman: but it does work?
14:41:08funmanthen I laod the "app" rockbox (rockbox.sansa) at 0x0 , I do not modify MMU
14:41:29funmanwell I can see the rockbox logo showed by the loaded rockbox so I believe it "works"
14:42:45funmanbut the OF only uses flat mapping, so I'm not sure if doing this will improve stability
14:43:21funmanI just thought that the OF enables the MMU only after all peripherals have been initialized, perhaps it's a direction to look at
14:44:52funmanFlynDice: do you happen to have some documentation on caching ?
14:45:02FlynDiceI've been trying different permutations of clean,dump , invalidate dcache with mixed results. ata_sd seems to be ok but pcm seems to be a problem
14:45:09funmanreading only the arm922t datasheet makes me feel lost
14:45:37FlynDicehold on a minute let me go grab my notes..
14:46:06funmanon my side I try to just get the Clip booting and be able to browse the menus
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14:49:48FlynDiceI waded through the 922 datasheet but found some stuff here helpful dealing with memory, caching and mapping
14:53:23FlynDiceThat's mostly the concepts though and not the actual steps we would need to take...
14:54:32funmanit can not harm to document ourselves ;)
14:55:43funmani have looked in the "firmware" part of the OF (first ~128kb block) for mrc/mcr instructions but saw nothing interesting (the functions enabling MMU, and invalidating caches & tlbs)
14:56:07funmanI'll look in other blocks, perhaps there is something interesting
14:56:32funmanAh I forgot : I extended UIE() to show details in data aborts
14:56:32FlynDiceDo we use dma on the ams sansas for anything else besides ata and pcm? I was looking at the lcd drivers and it appears they do not. Is that correct?
14:57:03funmanYes it's correct : we _could_ use it for DBOP but we don't (there is only 2 DMA channels : ata and pcm)
14:57:22FlynDicethat's what I thought
14:58:43funmanin UIE() I print registers c5 & c6 of cp15 : I always see "External abort on noncachable nonbufferable access or noncachable bufferable read in a valid section"
14:59:13funmansometimes with the "address" generating the fault being in fact an ARM instruction (0xef....something)
14:59:39funmanWhich enforces my opinion that we don't use caching correctly
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15:09:38funmanflyndice (for the logs)
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16:08:00msinghquestion. will using rockbox allow me to load music on/off the ipod without having to use itunes or similar app? i jut want to copy paste songs onto the disk if thats possible..
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16:10:22linuxstbmsingh: Yes.
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16:10:26evilnick_7msingh: It will allow you to do exactly that
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16:10:44LambdaCalculus37msingh: You can use whatever you wish to manage your music on your iPod, and you're free to drag and drop if you'd like.
16:10:47msinghawesome. thanks :)
16:11:02evilnick_7But those copy&pasted songs will not be playable on the Original Firmware
16:11:43msinghright that's why i've avoided using ipods for years now
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16:13:03linuxstbmsingh: Be aware that Rockbox doesn't run on current generations of ipods - the front page of the Rockbox website lists which ones it does work with.
16:13:50msinghok, well i have a 8gb ipod nano. will this work with rockbox? i'm checking the site now as well
16:13:59LambdaCalculus37That won't work with Rockbox.
16:14:05msinghi see :(
16:14:12 Quit kushalone ("Leaving. I cannot promise to be back but most likely will.")
16:14:27LambdaCalculus37The new iPod Classics won't work either.
16:15:51robin0800msingh: it is thought that all players in current production cannot be used with rockbox
16:17:00msinghi guess i have no use for this ipod then :/
16:17:10LambdaCalculus37msingh: Sorry.
16:17:42msinghthanks though rockbox sounds like a cool thing :)
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16:23:27LambdaCalculus37You could always try to buy a supported iPod or other compatible player.
16:23:41***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
16:23:58msinghLambdaCalculus37: i'll try. i was given this one but i swore off buying ipods since the last time i tried to use one on linux
16:24:37evilnick_7msingh: I do have an iPod Video (that is supported) for sale. It's 120GB as I upgraded the hard drive.
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16:29:42linuxstbmsingh: If you want a flash-based player that works with Rockbox, the Sansa e200 series (ie240, e260 etc) seem popular. But note that Sandisk (like Apple) have changed the hardware, so you need to find a "v1" e200 for Rockbox (at the moment - the v2 models are in the process of being supported).
16:30:32linuxstbFor a hard-disk target, I would suggest the Gigabeat F20/F40/F60 (there is only one hardware revision for that...).
16:31:20evilnick_7And I also have an F40 (with a 60GB drive) for sale!
16:38:03msinghcheers guys!
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16:46:41LambdaCalculus37midgey: Thanks for getting that yellow out of rocklife. :)
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16:55:43Davide-NYCI think there is a bug in the rockboxdev script
16:56:08LambdaCalculus37Davide-NYC: Do share with us. :)
16:56:11Davide-NYCcleardir deletes subirs and then checks for the existence of the build (parent) dir
16:56:40Davide-NYCI modified it to simply delete the build directory itself and was able to get it to work
16:56:44 Quit kugel (Remote closed the connection)
16:57:13Davide-NYCI'm not sure what I did is prudent but it worked. hold for details
16:58:29GodEaterDavide-NYC, please submit a patch - that definitely needs fixing
16:58:58Davide-NYCoh boy, it's so trivial. Rob, can ou help us out in this regard?
16:59:05linuxstbDavide-NYC: What do you mean that it deletes the subdirs, then checks for the existence of the build dir? I can't see it doing that...
16:59:13*linuxstb is maybe confused...
16:59:32Davide-NYCthe script later checks for the existence of the the build dir
16:59:41Davide-NYCnot inside the cleardir function
17:00:02linuxstblater? cleardir is called right at the end.
17:00:07Davide-NYCguys, I just know I modified line 143 to read "rm -rf $1" and all was well in my world
17:00:24Davide-NYCmaybe totally wrong, maybe totally unrelated.
17:00:52Davide-NYCwhen my script was done it complained that I halready had a build dir and that I should delete it and rerun the script
17:00:59Davide-NYCI did that twice and got frustrated
17:01:15Davide-NYClooked inthe code and decided to do what I did.
17:01:24Davide-NYCI'm now in business with a cross compiler
17:01:33Davide-NYCmaybe something else was up. I dunno.
17:01:58Davide-NYChopefully helpful to someone somewhere.
17:02:20linuxstbBut it doesn't sound like a problem - the script told you to delete the build dir, and when you did, it worked...
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17:03:24PaulJamlinuxstb: the problem is, that when you try to build more than one compiler then it only builds the first one and exits with an error (that the build dir already exists).
17:04:36rasherZagor: Rockbox 3.2 still isn't available as version number on Flyspray
17:04:39linuxstbWhen you specify them all at once, or just if you run the script multiple times?
17:05:02MTlinuxstb : have you seen the first link regarding fixed-point cook, from those that maraban sent you yesterday ?
17:05:15linuxstbMT: No, I didn't look at them in detail.
17:06:27PaulJamlinuxstb: i saw it when i tried to build two at once, but the build dir remains if you build a single one too. so you have to build then one by one and remove the build dir everytime manually.
17:06:45MTlinuxstb : the guy who wrote the patch says he made a replacement (as far as I read through the thread ) and that it actually runs 25 tims faster on arm targets
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17:06:57linuxstbPaulJam: Bagder wrote a comment about the builddir in the script saying "This directory is used to extract all files and to build everything in. It must not exist before this script is invoked (as a security measure).". I don't understand why...
17:07:36MapattiI have problem with RockBox
17:07:40GodEaterlinuxstb, it definitely needs mending though. Back when "all" existed as an option, all the tool chains built fine, now you have to specify a list though, it'll only build the first one and then dies
17:08:15MTif the patch is available, I think we'll just need to port it to RB.
17:09:09MapattiCannot load rockbox.ipod: Bad checksum
17:10:34rasherMapatti: How did you install?
17:11:07MapattiUtility and iPoPatcher
17:11:31MTlinuxstb : Here's what he wrote ;"To avoid duplication of common code, here's what I did : The current decoder consists of two files, "cook.c" and "cookdata.h". I factored out the floating point math from "cook.c", and put it into inline functions in a new file, "cook_float.h". Then I implemented fixed point versions, and put them in "cook_fixpoint.h". Then I repeated the same trick for...
17:11:33MT..."cookdata.h". Finally, I conditionally include the appropriate two files in "cook.c".
17:12:17GodEaterMapatti, why did you use both ?
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17:12:57MapattiBecause Utilitys boot cannot install
17:14:13MapattiFailed to add bootloader
17:15:29GodEaterand it had detected the right player ?
17:17:34linuxstbMapatti: That can often be if you installed the wrong version of rockbox.ipod - which ipod do you have?
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17:18:16linuxstbMT: That sounds a sensible approach (for Rockbox at least - I don't know if ffmpeg likes it)
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17:18:40Mapatti_I'm back now
17:18:57linuxstb(I don't know if you saw this): Mapatti: That can often be if you installed the wrong version of rockbox.ipod - which ipod do you have?
17:19:22Mapatti_1st generatiomn
17:19:29Mapatti_but im not sure
17:19:55linuxstbWhich kind of 1st generation? i.e. the full-size ipod, mini or nano?
17:20:07linuxstbipodpatcher will detect your ipod type and tell you what it is.
17:20:32Mapatti_1st Generation Nano ("winpod")
17:21:21linuxstbSo you installed a main Rockbox build for the Nano? Was that with Rockbox Utility, or manually?
17:21:43Mapatti_And bootloader with ipodpatcher
17:22:09linuxstbDid you safely remove your Nano after installing, or just pull the cable out?
17:22:27Mapatti_Pull cable out.
17:22:38Mapatti_Should i reinstall it?
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17:23:20linuxstbYes, you can try that, and make sure you safely remove it. You may have filesystem errors, so I would check for that.
17:23:34PaulJamMapatti_: in that case it would probably be a good idea to also run chkdsk on your player.
17:24:23Mapatti_Ill reinstall it first.
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17:25:37Mapatti_If i run chkdsk should i out parameters?
17:26:23PaulJamwell you need to give it the driveletter of your ipod
17:26:37Mapatti_so i put -h
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17:27:58PaulJami think it should be 'chkdsk /F H:' (if H is your ipods driveletter).
17:28:22Mapatti_or -F H:
17:28:36Mapatti_I don't know.
17:28:39Mapatti_I try it
17:28:48PaulJamoops, it should be 'chkdsk H: /F'
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17:31:58Mapatti_I will say what happen
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17:32:28linuxstbGodEater, PaulJam: It looks like kugel's change in r20099 broke by moving the builddir check inside the buildone() function - so it's now done for every build, rather than just at the start.
17:33:03*GodEater blames kugel
17:33:09GodEateras I'm sure svn does
17:33:50linuxstbIt did ;)
17:34:12linuxstbAlthough I'm more positive, and use "svn praise"
17:34:34GodEaterdo you get some sort of award for that
17:34:44GodEatercaring developer of the week ?
17:34:49*linuxstb wants a hat
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17:36:01thunder_dropHey guys the bottom three tabs of the forum are backwards... just to let you guys know
17:37:55Mapatti_Now it can't find rockbox.ipod
17:38:17Lloreanthunder_drop: Tabs?
17:39:06PaulJamMapatti_: did chkdsk find/fix anything?
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17:39:15Mapatti_I do it now
17:40:43Mapatti_It doesn't find anythind
17:41:07PaulJamdoes the file .rockbox\rockbox.ipod exist on your player?
17:42:10Mapatti_it disappeared
17:43:46thunder_dropLlorean: not tabs.. the order of the main headings... whatever they are called. New ports used to be on the bottom and unsuported builds at the top of that section
17:43:56Mapatti_Are themes .cfg files?
17:44:02PaulJamdid you use the "savely remove hardware" (not sure what it is called) funtion before disconnecting your ipod this time?
17:44:07Lloreanthunder_drop: Yes, I changed the order when I put them back yesterday.
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17:44:26Mapatti_Ill try it again
17:44:42thunder_dropLlorean: oh so you did it on purpose...? Guess I'll have to get used to it
17:45:29*GodEater can't imagine how it would happen by accident
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17:51:53Mapatti_Now lets pray
17:52:11Mapatti_Bad checksum still.
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17:53:19PaulJamMapatti_: you could try to download the current build for your player from and extract the .rockbox folder manually to your ipod.
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17:53:48Mapatti_I'll try it.
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17:56:34Mapatti_12 min left...
17:56:51Mapatti_And done
17:57:43Mapatti_Still bad checksum
17:58:12Mapatti_Anybody have 1st gen iPod with RockBox?
17:58:17LloreanMapatti_: Could you go to and type in all the text it shows on screen?
17:58:39Mapatti_Ill do it
17:58:40Cyber_WolfI have a question, when I try to install rockbox on my iriver windows 7 keeps giving me a cannot find error when I try the bootloader, I've tried a manual install as well and it keeps giving me an error there as well
17:58:40Lloreanand copy the link here?
17:58:59LloreanCyber_Wolf: Are you right-clicking and telling it to run as administrator?
17:59:27Cyber_Wolf'The device has stopped responding or has been disconnected'
18:02:12Cyber_Wolfyes and it's still giving me the issue(s)
18:03:36LloreanIf it happens with manual install to an iRiver, it sounds like USB issues.
18:04:01*GodEater wonders which model iriver it is
18:04:04Mapatti_Here is it
18:04:16LloreanMapatti_: You've not installed the iPod Nano build
18:04:23LloreanYou've installed the build for the 1st generation full size iPod
18:05:08*GodEater awards himself a small prize for guessing the right problem ;)
18:05:44Mapatti_What you mean?
18:06:00Cyber_Wolfmy music transfered just fine though
18:06:11LloreanMapatti_: You said you have a Nano. But you did not download the Nano version
18:06:15Cyber_Wolfh10 20gb eater
18:06:18Mapatti_I did
18:06:23LloreanNo, you didn't.
18:06:36Mapatti_I loaded it from here :
18:06:44LloreanMapatti_: That's not the one that's on your player currently
18:06:57Mapatti_Is it
18:06:59Mapatti_I put it on it
18:07:06LloreanYou did something wrong when trying to]
18:07:28LloreanLook, you can disagree with me all you want, it doesn't change the facts.
18:07:30Mapatti_I delete all rockbox files from iPod
18:07:43Mapatti_And i put Nano files
18:07:49LloreanIf it says "Model: 1g2g" that means the rockbox.ipod file it's trying to load is for a 1st Generation standard iPod
18:08:13rasherDid you use safely remove?
18:08:26Mapatti_It can be bootloader?
18:08:34Mapatti_Because mine doesn't work
18:08:47LloreanThe problem is the build, not the bootloader
18:08:56GodEaterno it can't - ipodpatcher will refuse to install an incorrect bootloader
18:09:51 Quit perrikwp (" ajax IRC Client")
18:11:11Mapatti_RockBoxUtility says its 1g/2g Ipod
18:11:27LloreanMapatti_: Did you click auto-detect?
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18:11:51LloreanDelete all rockbox file from it
18:11:53LloreanThen click it again.
18:12:13LloreanMake sure to get the .rockbox folder
18:12:16*Cyber_Wolf waits for an answer
18:12:38LloreanCyber_Wolf: Try using an OS that isn't in beta and see if you still have the same problems.
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18:12:55Mapatti_Deleting files...
18:13:30rasherWhy does Rockbox Utility check rockbox-info.txt first anyway?
18:13:37rasherThat could easily be wrong.
18:13:58domonokyrasher: because the autodetection code is in need of improvements ? :-)
18:14:25 Quit petur ("work->home")
18:14:35domonokyideally autodetection would use all detection methods, and combine and present the results to the user..
18:15:23Cyber_Wolfok, thanks
18:15:45domonokythe autodetection patch in the tracker would find two devices (ipod1g2g and ipodnano) at the same place, and the user would have to decide which one is the correct one.. i dont know if this better..
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18:16:27Lloreandomonoky: Maybe pull up some sort of conflict-resolution dialogue if they are the same device?
18:17:00Mapatti_All files deleted
18:17:08Mapatti_Now i install it
18:17:26domonokyLlorean: sounds good, but Mr.Someone is already busy :-)
18:17:47Lloreandomonoky: Well, just showing them two devices is probably better than getting it wrong every time. :-P
18:18:04LloreanMapatti_: No, you need to delete everything then auto-detect and see if it comes up with something different.
18:18:06LloreanI didn't say to install
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18:18:15domonokyyes, i should probably try to finish this autodetection patch in the tracker sometime..
18:19:15Mapatti_But i'm installing iPod Nano stuff
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18:19:53*toffe82 will lend his gogear 1830 and 6330 to anybody who want to finish the port of rockbox, helping low_light, just missing the manual and installation
18:21:11MapattiI want listen music :)
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18:23:44***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
18:24:49MapattiI will do some tricks to RockBox
18:26:14MapattiWorked :D
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18:28:40tomersIs there anyone here dealing with Google Summer of Code 2009? I'm thinking about applying to the Human interface device (HID) USB class implementation. (I know it's a last minute call)
18:29:57MapattiI go now
18:30:17gevaertstomers: sure. HID alone is probably not enough to fill GSoC though.
18:30:26 Quit Mapatti ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032609]")
18:30:35gevaertsI's a good start of course
18:31:06domonokytomers: feel free to ask rockbox GSOC questions here... but apply fast, its not much time left :-)
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18:32:43domonokytomers: do you have any previous USB experience ?
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20:00:05bluebrotherany thoughts / objections to rotating the table on the DevCon2009 page?
20:01:10Bagderand just a X in the date column for each name, yes...
20:01:22gevaertsbluebrother: just a thought : don't make mistakes :)
20:01:27bluebrotherhehe :)
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20:02:44TomersI was asking an hour ago regarding GSoC. I am sorry but I had to go with a short notice...
20:03:14bluebrotherBagder: exactly that was the idea :)
20:03:57Tomersdomonoky: Yes, I have an experience with USB
20:03:59gevaertsTomers: people have told me that I'm wrong about HID, and that it could be complex after all. I'm not convinced yet, but you might want to keep that in mind :)
20:05:14TomersI have a Fuze. I guess I would need to be able to low-level debug my platform. Which platform have proven and known JTAG interface?
20:05:34gevaertshm, we don't have a usb driver for the fuze at all yet...
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20:06:13Tomersif I will be accepted to GSoC, I don't mind buying a platform that's appropriate for this development
20:06:44BigBambiI'm sure something could be arranged anyway
20:06:55bluebrotheris there a way to make the wiki use a fixed-width font in the edit box?
20:07:18TomersHow much documentation do we have for the Fuze's USB controller?
20:07:30BagderTomers: zero
20:07:34 Quit l403 ("Ex-Chat")
20:07:44Bagderin any unit ;-)
20:07:48rasherBagder: do you have the powers to add Rockbox 3.2 to Flyspray?
20:08:02BagderI do...
20:08:50TomersSo what USB related things I can add to the HID in order to apply? Is it or isn't it enough by itself?
20:09:03gevaertsTomers: depends. I'm reasonably certain that it's the same one as in some AMD part for which we have a datasheet
20:09:12linuxstbTomers: For USB development, buying an old Sansa is probably the most sensible approach - they can be bought very cheaply.
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20:09:41gevaertsOr an old ipod if you prefer those
20:09:48TomersOK. I can easily get an old Sansa. Can I attach it to a JTAG?
20:09:54linuxstbgevaerts: I'm guessing they're more expensive though.
20:10:31gevaertslinuxstb: yes, but they're not *that* expensive (say a mini), and they may be easier to find
20:10:32linuxstbTomers: We normally don't have luxuries like JTAG...
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20:11:48Tomersgevaerts: Would a new mini iPod work? Or should I get a discontinued one?
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20:12:02gevaertsnot a mini ipod, an ipod mini :)
20:14:20gevaertsTomers: a lot would depend on how long HID takes exactly. My personal view for USB related GSoC work (which others may disagree with) would be to do HID first, then the plugin infrastructure for USB (we need that once we support lots of classes), and then MTP or audio
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20:15:30gevaertsThe last ones may be stretching it a bit, but I think it would still be worth trying
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20:15:59Tomersgevaerts: OK, iPod mini seems to be supported by Rockbox (both generations)... Would all what you just mentioned be appropriate for a GSoC project's scope?
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20:16:23linuxstbI see MTP as harder, as it requires integration with the Rockbox database. But I also see that as generally more useful.
20:17:05TomersAre MPT packets sent as Bulk, or as Interrupt / Isochronous?
20:17:16gevaertsas far as I know MTP is bulk
20:17:34TomersSo having MTP class is a good GSoC project?
20:17:41gevaertsI think it is, yes
20:18:15linuxstbTomers: I think so, yes. But it could be less about USB, and more about hacking on Rockbox's database code.
20:18:39gevaertsA lot depends on your experience of course. Someone with a bit of C experience who just heard about this USB thing will have a harder time than someone who has 30 years of C experience and can quote the USB spec
20:19:20TomersI'm not familiar with the DB code at all. I have some ~1yr experience with USB, and ~4 years with C embedded programming, so I guess I can handle this
20:19:31gevaertsthat sounds great
20:19:37BigBambiSo, opinions on the mockups for the new frontpage?
20:19:55BigBambi for those that have missed it
20:20:06rasherBigBambi: I pretty much like all of them. Haven't looked close enough to pick a favourite
20:20:12BigBambiPersonally, I like very much
20:20:22linuxstbTomers: It's also a matter of what will interest you. But I'm not aware of any existing open source device-side MTP code, so you'll be the first!
20:20:40LloreanI like #9 personally, mostly because I don't like splitting navigation, and since the big white chunk draws new user focus, it should contain the "most" new user oriented information
20:20:42Tomersgevaerts: After I'll submit the application, who is going to decide whether or not to go for it?
20:20:44gevaertsI once asked on the libmtp mailing list, and they didn't know of any :)
20:21:01BigBambirasher: Similar here
20:21:05bertrikBigBambi, agreed, most of them are an improvement on the current page, some could use a little fewer text boxes
20:21:09JdGordon|i tihnk the yellow and blue just look odd together
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20:21:25Tomersgevaerts: It sounds great. I know that guys that work on MTP hate it, and prefer the MS device a lot ;-)
20:21:30JdGordon|and im not a fan of the giant device image either
20:21:32vedlithhi ;]
20:22:00pixelmaat the moment it feels to me that they only want to look good (at first glance) but I couldn't find my way through (where is which link, how many menus are there)
20:22:47BigBambiRecycling what linuxstb said, what about a for the devs and for users
20:22:50bertrikas a developer, I do like to have the subversion history easily available but it's not useful for a new visitor, I wouldn't mind a (as linuxstb suggested) with all of the developer goodies
20:23:14Tomersgevaerts: What roadmap do you have in mind regarding MTP?
20:23:19BigBambiFor instance, things like the svn table would be better replaced by major changes from a user point of view
20:23:33gevaertsTomers: basically google tells us how many student allocations we get, and the rockbox committers then chooses that many projects
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20:23:48pixelmathey all look quite busy - and I also don't like showing a picture of a player if it is only one - people could get the impression that Rockbox is only for that one player (people will look at such a graphic first before starting to read)
20:23:51Tomersgevaerts: I mean, what 'checkpoints' for the progress of the project?
20:24:03BigBambipixelma: It cycles
20:24:07Lloreanpixelma: It could be animated, cycling players every 3-5 seconds or so
20:24:21n1si like linuxstb's suggestion for a developers section where we can find svn table, build table, delta table etc
20:24:27pixelmaBigBambi: haven't seen code yet
20:24:27BigBambipixelma: Or the other idea was that if you mouse over a player in the list, it shows that one
20:24:43BigBambipixelma: Nor has anyone, he says this in the thread
20:24:45n1sas long as we can get that i dont' care if the frontpage uses flash fwiw ;)
20:24:52linuxstbn1s: I'm thinking more along the lines of a completely different site...
20:25:12bluebrotherok, anyone who is listed on the DevCon2009 wiki page: please check if I made any errors on swapping the date table.
20:25:18rasherlinuxstb: Why does it need to be a seperate site? A subpage should do as far as I can tell
20:25:32n1si just want the things *i* look for on the site to be easy to find :)
20:25:48n1sdifferent site or a section doesn't matter to me
20:26:17linuxstbrasher: Because we have a large community of devs (and keen users), who want one thing from the site, plus we have lots of new users coming who want to see something completely different.
20:26:30gevaertsTomers: a bit hard to say... Major divisions could be : recognised as MTP without anything crashing, being able to actually transfer files both ways, actually updating the database. I don't know how familiar exactly you are with rockbox and usb, and I'm not very familiar with MTP (I do know USB in general, but...) so I can't guess how long each of those would take
20:26:46rasherlinuxstb: How is better than ?
20:27:23gevaertsTomers: that also means that more subdivisions are hard :)
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20:27:59linuxstbrasher: It doesn't make much difference, but I think it could be useful to think of them as two separate things, rather than one as a sub-site of another.
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20:28:39pixelmaLlorean: I'm curious to see such graphiccs for all players though...
20:29:11pixelmagraphics too
20:29:13rasherpixelma: we managed to get *scans* of all (or almost all) players, surely we can manage a photo?
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20:30:07pixelmaI doubt you can find many Archoses in such a "shiny" state...
20:30:17gevaertsrasher: those particular players probably aren't very shiny anymore :)
20:30:30archivatorpixelma: shininess is where photoshop comes in.
20:30:47LloreanWe don't have to show pictures of every player if we're just going to have an automated cycling
20:30:51LloreanJust a half dozen different ones ought to do
20:31:08LloreanAs long as the list to find out if yours is supported is *obvious*
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20:34:36pixelmathe other two things I have problems with is the top menu bar (I overlooked it for a while when looking at the mockup first - and I don't understand why everything needs a reflection but maybe that's me :\ ) and the Rockbox Utility download "area" has too much in one (and the button doesn't stand out much besides that in my eyes the drop shadow is on the wrong side)
20:36:50rasherI really don't see how the top menu can be overlooked.
20:37:58n1si suppose this site mockup have taken our blind users into account
20:39:09JdGordon|does anyone else think that the way the manufacturers are listed could be taken to mean all players they make?
20:39:40rashern1s: I'm not sure how you take blind users into account while making a mockup. It's mostly something that happens in the code
20:39:57rasherJdGordon|: which one
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20:40:24pixelmarasher: it's almost as grey as the tab bar in my browser. Maybe this wouldn't be such a problem if it wouldn't have such a strong "border" to the rest of the page (lacking some english at the moment, I mean the contrast is strong)
20:40:31n1srasher: i was more thinking about that whoever codes the site had them in mind and phrased it poorly :)
20:40:50rashern1s: well afaik, there's no code yet
20:42:11JdGordon|rasher: all of them... at first glance I see "supported players" then see "apple" and think ok any ipod then
20:42:17pixelmacontrast to the rest of the page in the mockup
20:42:19JdGordon|ditto for all of them
20:43:11pixelmaand white font on gradiently lighter grey isn't very easy to read, even with a slight shadow
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20:52:32archivatorIs having "Song Rating" a quick screen setting that big of a paradigm breaker? I realize that the value of this "setting" changes with every song but I think that's the only way I might actually use it. Long select, halfway scroll and then another scroll to select the value is not exactly lightening fast. As a quick screen option, it would be one long press and the N consecutive presses of the same button to set the rating.. Much better, though not as
20:52:32archivator fast as the iPod's OF. Any thoughts on this?
20:53:18gevaertsarchivator: some people think that *time* should be a setting, and that changes even more often!
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20:53:54archivatorgevaerts: har, har.
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20:55:13rasherarchivator: what happens when nothing's playing? (not saying it can't be done, but it's certainly a bit more complex)
20:55:22JdGordon|archivator: its not so much a paradigm breaker (i mean.. it is but....) but its technically difficult to do
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20:55:51JdGordon|if you *really* wanted to you could do it... might not even be too much work
20:56:23JdGordon|it also might be massively hard :)
20:56:25archivatorrasher: How about a "No song playing" line right below the Set Song Rating line?
20:56:36JdGordon|that would be possible
20:57:32*JdGordon| wouldnt bother even attmepting this until there is a definate OK for it...
20:57:41*JdGordon| also wouldnt object to it at all
20:58:46archivatorI have no idea how the current settings system works, so I might not be the best man for the job. That is to say, if it's ever okayed, I'd need lots of help to implement it. Just saying..
20:58:49gevaertsarchivator: never! What if it's not a song?
20:59:22archivatorgevaerts: "Nothing playing' sounds silly.
20:59:34archivatorEven with proper punctuation.
20:59:39gevaertsarchivator: well, 99% of my files are *not* songs
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21:00:33archivatorgevaerts: you really do enjoy bringing up the smallest of issues, don't you?
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21:01:07gevaertsarchivator: it's called a "track" :)
21:01:47archivatorgevaerts: right. Moving on..
21:01:53*JdGordon| has a agenral idea how to do it... but its rather hacky
21:04:55JdGordon|yeah, na, I dont think its really doable, the setting system doesnt have any mechanism to get the current value except if its in global_settings which this wouldnt be
21:05:09JdGordon|and having the wps or whatever set a value in that is just wrong
21:05:16JdGordon|and probably dangerous
21:05:57bertrikI think the "About rockbox" and "Support" text boxes should be removed, to make the page cleaner. There's already a support button and the stuff under "about rockbox" is a bit redundant
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21:17:26linuxstbwincent: Hi. Are you still planning on submitting an SoC application?
21:17:38wincentI am.
21:18:16wincentlinuxstb: Last days I wrote the application.
21:18:28wincentlinuxstb: Now I must copy it from paper :-)
21:18:39linuxstbwincent: You have about 24 hours...
21:19:32wincentlinuxstb: I know this. Are you going to be online in about 2 hours?
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21:21:51linuxstbwincent: Probably. Why?
21:22:22wincentlinuxstb: To get a comment or two before submitting.
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21:26:30re-peati'm sooo happy (found my ipod nano yesterday) lost for seems like a year
21:27:12re-peatbut its cools, cause i just compiled a new rockbox bin for it
21:27:49archivatorre-peat: do you have anything to ask or are you just sharing?
21:28:22re-peatwell i was hoping to start up some dev chatter
21:29:10linuxstbAbout what?
21:29:25re-peati dunno i wanna change something
21:29:47gevaertsyou need to decide what you want to change first :)
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21:31:14BigBambiwincent: What I'd like to know is what this pure data thing actually is. I read the website and still don't get it :)
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21:33:16wincentBigBambi: It is a framework to create and/or process audio data, building sound processing chains out of blocks,
21:33:35BigBambiwincent: What does that mean?
21:33:41wincentBigBambi: which either implements relatively simple DSP operations or are blocks of the same operations.
21:33:46BigBambiwincent: What do I do, and what happens?
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21:34:00BigBambiSo I press buttons and get sounds?
21:34:20linuxstbwincent: So what would you (personally) you use it for?
21:34:57wincentBigBambi: First, you build your synthesizer, effect device or anything you want out of the blocks the program already has.
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21:35:59wincentBigBambi: Then you switch sound processing on and then you get the sound.
21:36:36wincentBigBambi: If you have incorporated some controls in your design, you can control the sound in real time.
21:37:15wincentlinuxstb: One aspect would be making music with DAPs.
21:37:22BigBambiwincent: I'm afraid I'm being really dense, but I'm still struggling :)
21:38:47linuxstbwincent: What CPUs does it typically run on?
21:38:49BigBambiSo a bit like midi procesing?
21:39:19wincentlinuxstb: Aside of desktop CPUs it was tested quite well on ARM.
21:39:50BigBambiwhat speed arm?
21:40:20wincentBigBambi: iPod, under ipodlinux.
21:40:58wincentBigBambi: Think about it as a kit of sound building blocks. You have oscillators, filters, delay lines, sampling units and much, much more.
21:41:41BigBambiOK, so should be doable :)
21:41:42wincentBigBambi: And you build any synthesizer (but not only synthesizer) with that blocks.
21:43:19re-peatwow feels like im back home in #hamradio
21:44:05BigBambiwincent: It sounds interesting :)
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21:46:22wincentBigBambi: It is! Especially the possibility to apply real-time control. But now I go back to typing the application :-)
21:46:47re-peatis it just me or do some of the demo's (starfield,matrix) react to sound being output?
21:46:56rasherJust you.
21:46:57BigBambiwincent: Excellent :)
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21:48:06*re-peat looks through rockbox/apps/plugins
21:48:23linuxstbwincent: Do you know how well it worked on ipodlinux?
21:48:50wincentlinuxstb: Is it possible to you to watch a video on Youtube?
21:51:40wincentBigBambi: I intend to store an example program (one is required in application template) in a pastebin. Do I have to store it indefinetely (I would prefer for 1 month)?
21:52:40wincentlinuxstb: In other words (if it is not possible for you to see it by yourself on youtube), it worked quite well, albeit with sampling rate of 22050 Hz.
21:52:47BigBambiwincent: I don't see why, 1 month should be fine
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21:53:00wincentBigBambi: Thank you.
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21:54:13BigBambiwincent: If it is really needed later (although again I don't see why) omeone can always ask you :)
21:54:39BigBambiwincent: Also, submitted applications are only seen by prospective mentors and committers
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21:59:07kugelJdGordon|: ping
22:01:51JdGordon|you've got about 10min to talk before im in a meeting for the rest of the arvo....
22:02:23kugelJdGordon|: apparently 9795 doesn't fix
22:03:21JdGordon|i saw... i even replied in 9795 didnt I?
22:03:34JdGordon|im not sure why thouhg... havnt looked at it
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22:03:40JdGordon|not really a high priority :p
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22:03:53kugeloh, i didn't notice he replied in that task too
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22:05:25JdGordon|i do think that 9795 will at least make it easier to fix, so i'll look into it after
22:06:02JdGordon|unless you want to try and fix it properly now?
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22:07:10kugelI can't think of a real proper solution, so I tend to leave it up to you :D
22:07:37kugelor do you mean your patch? I could give it a try, at least
22:07:55JdGordon|i nmeant with svn... it might not be the issue we thought it was
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22:44:54kugelZagor: ping
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23:27:07domonokynew attempt at seperating the gui from tts and encoders in rbutil: FS #10070 :-)
23:30:39wincentlinuxstb: Ping
23:31:01wincentI have a draft of my application here:
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23:42:58linuxstbwincent: It looks pretty good to me. But I don't know enough about Pure Data (or your skills) to say if the timeline is realistic.
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23:45:04wincentlinuxstb: That's why I asked my possible mentor to have a very good understanding of the threading model of Rockbox :-)
23:45:31linuxstbwincent: One thing that seems missing from your timeline though is optimisation. If you're planning on working with the H320, you'll be wanting to use the Coldfire's EMAC unit, which requires writing assembley.
23:46:12linuxstbAlso, the RAM on the H320 is relatively slow - plugins have access to 48KB of fast IRAM, so you will also want to make the most speed-critical code make use of that.
23:46:15domonokywincent: and is this "synthesiser" thing meant to be a plugin , or built into the core ?
23:47:10wincentlinuxstb: Good to know, I'll look into the thing with RAM.
23:47:43wincentdomonoky: It is meant to be a viewer for .pd files, which are Pure Data designs.
23:47:55domonokyoki, that sounds sane.
23:48:23linuxstbwincent: So what's the UI for - to create these pd files?
23:49:00*linuxstb should probably watch that PdPod video...
23:49:32linuxstb(in case anyone is wondering - )
23:49:53wincentlinuxstb: No, the UI is for having control over the PD design, like closing a filter gate.
23:51:40JdGordon|wtf? anyone seen this error on the h300 before "please remove external battery pack"?
23:53:56rasherJdGordon|: From the OF?
23:54:17 Quit bertrik ("Leaving")
23:55:35 Quit evilnick_7 (" ajax IRC Client")
23:56:44JdGordon|was just wierd... resetting it got me back into rockbox as expected
23:56:57 Quit n1s ("Lämnar")

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