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#rockbox log for 2009-08-07

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02:02:57 Quit JdGordon| ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.")
02:10:17saratogakugel: you had a YH-xxx player right? You should compile a bootloader for it, check that it works, and then post test builds so that we have a bootloader ready for release
02:11:00kugelI don't think anyone else besides me has one :(
02:11:34saratogapyro and lowlight too i think
02:11:46saratogabut i'm sure if you post builds and link them on ABI someone will test
02:11:49kugelalso, it's a "pp" bootloader, we actually have released bootloader for it
02:12:12saratogawell for other targets
02:12:18saratogathe drivers won't be entirely the same though
02:12:32kugelyea, sure
02:12:56kugelI think the 6.0 can be used for this one too though
02:12:58saratogacan you tag and version a bootloader for it?
02:13:02saratogayeah sounds good
02:13:29kugelI'll look at it tomorrow, the pp bootloader need tagging anyway
02:13:36saratogaok cool
02:13:44saratogamaybe we could release for it in a week or so if no bugs crop up
02:14:36kugelbut I really would like low_light to give his blessing
02:15:27kugelsadly, he's rarely online and apparently more busy with the philips daps
02:16:10saratogawell thats plenty of time to get a hold of him
02:16:16saratogai'm sure if he really minds he'll say something
02:16:30saratogabut IIRC he mostly wanted plugins working and we have that more or less now
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02:20:59JdGordon_kugel: I had a good look at the skin stuff last night again, its in pretty good shape i tihnk... it *shoudl* just work with multiple gui_wps structs which was half the goal...
02:23:01kugelyea, but the gui_wps struct is too wps oriented, still :)
02:23:06JdGordon_except the redraw function exists if id3 == NULL which is not going to work for the statusbar/fm/rec
02:24:18JdGordon_the skin struct should have nothing but tokens (needs my ram usage fixing patch to do properly) and a point to extra data...
02:24:40JdGordon_the tokens should be smart enough to get their information correctly
02:24:52saratogai can't remember if I already asked, but what is the goal of the recent wps changes?
02:24:55 Nick fxb is now known as fxb__ (
02:25:11JdGordon_I wonder if we need to put logic in to make sure tags dont show up in screens where they dont make sense..
02:25:21JdGordon_saratoga: meh, just busy work :p
02:26:01JdGordon_but also, to generally clean it up a bit... maybe make the wps editor/checker easier to work with, make it easier to add skinning to screens
02:26:22saratogaskinning as in WPS for other screens?
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02:33:29kugelJdGordon_: I thought every screen defines his own set of tokens anyway
02:33:37kugelor tags at least
02:33:58 Quit GeekShadow ("The cake is a lie !")
02:33:59JdGordon_do we want that though? how do we share tags?
02:34:03JdGordon_is that overkill?
02:35:02JdGordon_we could easily put the screen checking logic inside the parse logic for each token, or add it to the toekn table thingy
02:35:20kugelI'm not sure
02:36:50kugelwe probably want to share some stuff (the obvious ones, %V, %T, image stuff), but that's all (IIUC)
02:37:13JdGordon_also, depending on how we do the statusbar, it might want to change tags if its in the menu with fm going, or with music going
02:37:18kugelprobably enough to do the fun
02:37:50kugelgah, the statusbar is keeping you busy, isn't it?
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02:43:42JdGordon_i fell off :p
02:43:43JdGordon_I still hink the best way to do the sb is to allow a seperate .skin file for it AND to add tags to the usual .wps for when the menu is being shown
02:45:02JdGordon_its not that its keeping me busy... its like the last bit of the origgional not-so-nice-to-look-at gui :)
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02:56:44CIA-6New commit by kugel (r22192): Change a few defines to enums to match the other code around and argument bits #defines for settings_load to make clear it's bitwise.
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02:59:26CIA-6New commit by kugel (r22193): Quick, fix red, before the new build system shows it!
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03:03:51kugelthat was weird, I had two parallel builds
03:08:03kugelnot a bad highscore at least :P
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13:18:01*stripwax__ no I haven't
13:18:05stripwax__oh, weird
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14:40:06bertrikI looked a bit at the Samsung YP-S3 bootloader
14:40:39bertrikit seems this bootloader is responsible for firmware upgrades and also contains a separate USB mode for uploading files
14:44:04 Join kugel [0] (n=kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel)
14:44:28kugeldoes anyone have a script for plotting a battery bench?
14:45:36 Join CQ [0] (
14:47:52CQhow do you tell apart an ipod 3rd or 4th gen? It has 40GB and is black and white...
14:48:13CQmanufactured 2004
14:48:16stripwaxCQ there are pictures on the website
14:48:57stripwaxThe 3rd gen has buttons above the wheel. the 4th gen has no buttons above the wheel.
14:49:09CQok,l 4th then, tahnks
14:50:02CQI'm trying to run the automatic detection, taking forever on XP :)
14:51:11linuxstbCQ: The third gen has four buttons in a row just under the LCD. The 4th gen has the buttons on the wheel.
14:51:33*linuxstb realises stripwax just said that...
14:52:08*stripwax is rarely on irc at this hour in the day so takes no offence :)
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15:16:02LambdaCalculus37Recording and playback are not possible at the same time on Rockbox; is this correct?
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15:22:33n1sLambdaCalculus37: yes
15:25:01domonokyLambdaCalculus37: there are targets where this could be possible, but its not implemented at moment :-)
15:25:24LambdaCalculus37domonoky: What is the restriction that prevents this? Just curious.
15:25:38LambdaCalculus37I'm thinking it's buffering issues.
15:26:33domonokyLambdaCalculus37: restriction is mostly the audio hardware. not all audio chips can be switched to route audio in-> cpu -> out
15:27:31domonokyi think we mostly use the bypass in->out when we route fm audio for example.
15:32:38CIA-6New commit by kugel (r22194): Samsung YH925: Support for battery monitoring and charging. Discharge curve not yet calibrated.
15:32:51CIA-6New commit by kugel (r22195): Samsung YH925: Battery calibration for charging and dischharging.
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16:00:13n1sLambdaCalculus37, domonoky: I think several of our targets could do it
16:00:26n1sbuffering is certainly one problem
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16:11:35*kugel is done with battery stuff on the yh925 for now
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16:15:14CQanyone know how to get the battery capacity for an ipod 4th gen click wheel grey?
16:15:38Torne"get" it?
16:16:38CQ I gave this table, do all 4th gens have the same capacity, i.e. 630mAh?
16:17:12stripwaxCQ - they should all have the same specifications as those Apple have documented. it's probably even the manual for your model
16:17:20Torneyes, they should all be the same
16:17:35Tornei think the only one that's odd is the 5th gen where the ones with larger drives have a larger battery
16:17:50stripwaxunless your ipod has had a battery replacement/upgrade at some point (e.g. if bought second hand)
16:18:02CQno, bought second hand, but no replacements done
16:18:17Torneyes. so unless the previous owner replaced it, it's 630mah
16:18:27CQok, thannks
16:21:18bertrikkugel, I think there's a pin that the power management chip uses to indicate that charging is done, as we using that already for the YHs?
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16:21:59bertrikAlso I'm a bit surprised by the high battery voltages measured on those targets
16:23:34bertrikI suppose the check on GPIO D4 in power-yh82x-yh92x.c is just the charger presence detection
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16:24:33kugelbertrik: we have CHARGING_SIMPLE, i.e. no control on the charging at all (IIUC)
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16:25:24kugelre high voltages, it might be possible that the scale factor is a bit off
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16:30:12bertrikI think it should be possible to use CHARGING_MONITOR, I think you just have to find the charger-is-on pin and implement 'bool charging_state(void)'
16:31:00kugelbertrik: it shows that it's charging
16:36:41kugelbertrik: DEV_EN bit 4 changes when I insert the cable
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16:40:24bertrikI think there is also a bit to indicate if the power management chip is actually charging, this bit should change at the end of a charge cycle (this is timer-based IIRC)
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16:41:19kugelbertrik: that could be the one in DEV_EN
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16:53:18*kugel hacks DEV_EN into battery_bench
16:55:38bertrikcould be that pin indeed, IIRC it should go low after a few hours
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17:07:03FlynDiceJust to prove I'm getting desperate.... are bytes always 8 bits for us?
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17:48:07pikejust thought I should let people know that works with Sansa c200 v1
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20:12:43ej0rgeHey i have an on-topic question. I'm aware that the pcm code only pushes 16 bit audio, but are there similar restrictions on the sample rate? A number of targets have codec parts capable of 96khz, but it's unclear what rockbox would do with 16-bit 96khz audio.
20:13:18linuxstbThe playback engine is hard-coded to play everything back at 44.1KHz.
20:14:12ej0rgeGood to know
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20:56:19saratoga_ej0rge: for what its worth i don't think the playback engine is limited to 16 bit, just 44.1khz
20:56:56ej0rgesaratoga_: huh, I've heard some say that the use of DMA limits the word length to 16 bits
20:57:06saratoga_depends on the target . . .
20:57:25saratoga_each CPU has its own DMA hardware and not all use DMA for audio
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21:03:01ej0rgeabout once a month, someone on head-fi asks about 24/96 audio on portable devices such as the old irivers and the gigabeat F that have 24/96 codec parts
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21:03:29ej0rgeAnd generally speaking the answer is "No"
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21:08:33Strife89Say, is anyone else using FS #8806? I'm using the latest patch, and ITs won't play for me for some reason.
21:08:48Strife89I've been trying to figure out why.
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21:10:39bertrikit's a pity that playback is limited to 44.1 kHz, I won't mind looking into adding support for 48 kHz for the devices I own
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21:11:11JdGordon|is it actually hard limited? or can it be fixed with some fancy code?
21:12:16saratoga_JdGordon|: the DSP code all assumes a 44.1khz sampling rate
21:12:28saratoga_i think changing that would involve some work
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21:13:00JdGordon| :)
21:13:47saratoga_i bet it would be possible to feed other sample rates through without too much reworking, provided you didn't mind disabling resampling, EQ, etc
21:14:18saratoga_though i'm not sure how tightly coupled the sample rate is to PCM buffering
21:15:15saratoga_though 48k is so close to 44.1, maybe resuing the existing filters would work well enough . . .
21:17:44maraz48k is _too_ close to 44.1
21:21:22bertrikI suppose for the EQ, we could still use the same filter, just update the setup of the coefficients
21:22:07ej0rgeThe question is academic for me - all my music is 16/44.1
21:23:11bertrikmaraz, what do you mean too close?
21:23:23marazbertrik: heh, irrelevant to this discussion, apparently
21:23:36marazresampling between 44.1 and 48 usually results in audible artifacts
21:23:56ej0rgemaraz: right - aliasing - but we're not talking about that
21:24:11marazas i said, irrelevant to this discussion
21:24:13ej0rgemaraz: there are some nutty people who have 24/96 audio they would like to carry around with them
21:25:08JdGordon|is the difference the same as lossless to lossy? i.e most people cant tell the difference?
21:25:24ej0rgeI think it would be interesting to see if a high quality upsampler pushing 44.1 to 88.2 on codecs that support it (as in the h100 and h300, and gigabeat F/X) might reduce the noise floor of the DAC
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21:25:45ej0rgei admit that it would probably not overcome the intrinsic noise in the rest of the DAP though
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21:25:58ej0rgeJdGordon|: i think so
21:26:13bertrikej0rge, can't the codec do the upsampling? (I think some already do)
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21:26:24ej0rgebertrik: That may be
21:26:40bertrikor rather they have an interpolator often running at a much higher frequency than the sample rate
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21:27:58ej0rgebertrik: Some codec makers have been playing with that recently - ESS has a part with an upsampler that goes a bit over 1mhz if you're only pushing 2-channel audio through it
21:28:05bertrikNATIVE_FREQUENCY is the #define for 44.1 kHz audio
21:28:38bertrikit's used in pcmbuf.c, dsp.c playback.c and the mpegplayer plugin
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21:29:30bertrikthe eq isn't even aware of the sample rate, it just gets handed fractional cutoff frequencies from dsp.c
21:30:31bertrikand I think pcmbuf.c and playback.c use the sample rate only for calculating times (fade in/out or for buffer watermarks)
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21:34:40bertrikso it looks like the impact of allowing 48 kHz audio isn't really that big
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21:38:58ej0rgeInteresting, though, the uda1380 datasheet lists the typical snr as 100db for 48khz or 97db for 96khz
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22:14:32amiconnej0rge: The old irivers are limited to integer multiples and fractions of 44.1kHz sample rate, i.e. only 88.2/44.1/22.05/11.025 kHz are possible
22:15:06amiconnThis is a coldfire i2s limitation; nothing we can do about that. The only exception is s/pdif *recording*
22:16:31amiconnUsing DMA (which is highly recommended on coldfire as there is no equivalent of the ARM FIQ on coldfire) limits the sample depth to 16 bits
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22:24:26ej0rgeamiconn: OK, so theoretically 88.2khz playback is possible, but right now it sounds like only 44.1khz is implemented?
22:25:26amiconn88.2kHz playback is possible from within plugins. The playback engine resamples *everything* to 44.1kHz because it is not prepared to handle sample rate switching during playback
22:26:14ej0rgethanks for the clarification
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22:30:09amiconnAlso, the coldfire cannot handle 24 bit audio, the maximum is 20 bit. This would require handling ten-thousands of interrupts per seconds
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22:32:06JdGordon|that must drive it mad! :D
22:32:17 Join kugel [0] (n=kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel)
22:33:03kugelJdGordon|: you may not believe it, but today I started to merge customlist into my git branch, which (at least) means I thought of doing some work on it :p
22:33:24JdGordon|oh noes!
22:34:07JdGordon|get it in asap so lambda can show it off in his presentation...
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22:36:34jaykaymay i ask what customlist is?
22:36:50JdGordon|you may not!
22:37:08jaykayok... what is customlist? :P
22:37:28JdGordon|its a patch to put the lists in a rectangle anywhere in the screen you want
22:38:40saratoga_i saw theres a new IAP patch
22:38:42jaykayand what help does this give?
22:38:46saratoga_anyone want to take responsibility for it?
22:39:09JdGordon|I wanted tot look at it, but wont have time till sunday earliest
22:39:32JdGordon|it would be sweet if that magically made my ipod+stereo play nice
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22:40:24jaykaykugel: nice :)
22:40:55pixelmawhat a waste (in the screenshot), not that I think it's totally uselss but I would never use it this way
22:41:33CtcpIgnored 1 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood
22:41:33*JdGordon| also
22:41:33JdGordon|the benefit of the patch is is statusbar cleanup stuff
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22:42:21CreposucreI posted a patch for ipod FM remote
22:42:32JdGordon|speak of the devil...
22:42:39saratoga_we were just discussing that
22:42:41JdGordon|I'm going to hopefully look at it on sunday
22:42:47Creposucrejust wanted to know if someone is interested in it
22:43:26saratoga_yeah it should go in, but we'll need people familar with that code to consent
22:44:01Creposucreit's a first patch, so i guess quite a lot of things to change
22:44:09Creposucrewell, not too much i hope
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22:46:11CreposucreDoes someone is familiar with the radio code?
22:46:41JdGordon|not really
22:47:21kugelbuggers, don't crititse my patch!"
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22:47:58pixelmaI criticised your screenshot
22:49:08Creposucretests with interactive docks would be intesting too, if someone own one
22:49:33JdGordon|thats what I'm hopin you fixed... I have a alarm clock dock with controls which doesnt work atm
22:49:36saratoga_bertrik and n1s are and they were on earlier today
22:49:42saratoga_hopefully they will see this in the logs
22:50:30Creposucreso, for the logs:
22:50:46Creposucrethere is some kind of authetifications packets in iap
22:51:10Creposucrei didn't called it for the ipod remote and it works pretty well
22:51:37Creposucrebut i don't know if it lacks some stuffs for others hardware
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22:51:57Creposucrei tried with severals in a hardware shop
22:52:17Creposucrebut not all the docks are "interactive"
22:53:10Creposucreif you have some questions, no problem
22:55:34CreposucreJdGordon: there is a patch is task 9951 to log iap packets
22:56:11CreposucreJdGordon: in combination with the ipod remote patch, it could be useful to solve your problem
22:56:48jaykayi have a non-professional idea for the build system... would it make sense if the clients send a message to the master e.g. 10sec before he completes the build, and the buildmaster doesn't hand it out again after that?
22:57:14JdGordon|Creposucre: ok thanks
22:57:19gevaertsJdGordon|: why?
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22:57:25JdGordon|jaykay: how do they know they are 10s away from finishing?
22:57:46JdGordon|gevaerts: i got a 2nd reciever... this one uses the dock not a usb cable
22:58:02JdGordon|it very partially works with my video, but not at all with my mini
22:58:05jaykaymaybe when they reached a file which is about ten seconds away from the end
22:58:13jaykayi don't know if thats possible
22:58:28Bagderjaykay: I don't see what benefit it would provide
22:58:30jaykaybut it would prevent killing 3 builds in a few seconds
22:58:45gevaertsjaykay: 10 seconds can be a long time, bootloaders e.g. can build in 3 seconds on some machines
22:58:58Bagderand 10 seconds would be a *guess*
22:59:16jaykaymaybe other uncompleted builds can be handed out again which need longer to complete
22:59:18Bagderit could just as well take 15, or never complete
22:59:39pixelmaand builds get killed if a different server is done with them (so had been distributed already)
22:59:47Bagderjaykay: yes, but that has nothing to do with the 10 seconds left...
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23:00:38BagderI honestly believe that all complicated schemes are wrong
23:00:46jaykayis a random uncompleted build handed out again when a client is ready?
23:00:52pixelmayou said "doesn't hand it out again" but it had been already handed out to different clients - one was quicker than yours
23:01:08Bagderjaykay: they are never handed out randomly
23:02:02n1ssaratoga_: what am i supposed to see in the logs? :)
23:02:12jaykaypixelma: i know... i meant the master shouldn't hand it out in this last 10 seconds
23:02:24jaykaywell, ok, it was just an idea :)
23:03:20saratoga_n1s: discussion of radio changes in 10494
23:03:21gevaertsjaykay: not handing it out again means that if your build crashes, it needs 10 seconds more to recover, and if it's a reasonably small build someone else could get it done faster anyway. What would this actually gain us?
23:03:55pixelmawhat if the client that signaled "I'm done in 10s" if that was even possible suddenly hangs?
23:04:54jaykaythen my idea failed
23:05:56n1ssaratoga_: ok, I'll look tomorrow, slightly drunk now :D
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