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#rockbox log for 2009-08-27

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00:11:36AlexPIt is sort of
00:11:54 Quit bertrik ("De groeten")
00:12:24AlexPA replacement page was put up when the main site was down, and whilst the site is now back up (afaik), DNS needs time to propogate, and so it is still down for some people (maybe)
00:14:40***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:16:20robin0800It hasn't got to the UK yet, it's still the page from last night
00:17:15crashd_fyi: works for me and i'm in the uk
00:17:17AlexPFrance neither
00:17:19crashd_must just be your isp
00:17:25AlexPwell yes
00:17:29crashd_well, obviously
00:17:34crashd_im just throwing a cent in :p
00:19:10stripwaxworks fine in uk here also. I'm using OpenDNS
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00:38:21robin0800well some pages are back but not all
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01:19:43MG_ManAlright, the site's back
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01:44:53Topic"Rockbox 3.3 has been released | Please read before speaking: | Please direct off/msg topic/social chat to #rockbox-community" by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
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03:18:00MG_ManI always used to wonder if Rockbox would ever be able to play Flash files, but there's no GPL-friendly way of doing that
03:18:27 Quit martian67 (Success)
03:25:38Unhelpfulhrm, ok, i've figured out how one gets the default glyph out of freetype, although it's a bit icky. it would seem to me that the output fonts should always *try* to include a default glyph, i think what i'll do is use the first missing character in the selected range if any are found, and otherwise just use add a character at an end of the range and make it the default glyph.
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03:46:01MG_ManWell, skin is basically 100% done save for one small issue I have
03:46:20MG_ManWhen the battery meter maxes out, it goes blank the step after
03:46:23MG_ManThen goes to max again
03:46:25MG_ManI can't figure it out
03:46:37MG_ManI'll host the theme so you smarter people can figure it out
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05:13:07moosHappy to see Rockbox back again :)
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07:17:45*pixelma is not surprised
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09:26:37razymcould someone tell me if it's possible to lock rockbox's volume?
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09:27:03razymas in, the scroll wheel changing the volume wouldn't do anything, even with the hold switch off
09:27:06razymthis is for an iPod 5.5g
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09:29:21linuxstbrazym: Anything is possible if you edit the code and compile Rockbox yourself. That should just be a matter of removing the key mappings.
09:30:13razyma sensical answer...
09:30:24razymand of course, it's possible to add a menu option to disable and enable it
09:30:31razymdo you think it's worth the effort?
09:31:00razymi have a headphone amp, so the volume is always at 0dB. the volume changes with the amp itself
09:31:16razymaccidentally changing to +1-+6 makes the volume jump quite high
09:31:17linuxstbThen you should use the line-out - that's fixed at 0dB.
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09:32:20razymaye, the iPod->amp is line in, and the amp->headphones is out
09:32:27razymi'm just afraid to lose my hearing :p
09:33:34razymwelp, i guess i'll take a look at modifying a build to have a volume keybind disable/enable feature
09:33:46razymthanks linuxstb
09:34:11 Part razym
09:34:15linuxstbYou don't want to use your ipod's line-out? It's in the dock connector.... bye...
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10:44:55fmlAlexP: hello! I also saw the thin white lines but thought that they wouldn't be visible when printed on paper. I think it's just an artefact of displaying it (low screen resolution). I think tex does a decent work when placing objects.
10:45:38AlexPfml: Probably not, and it isn't a major issue, it'd just be nice to get rid of them if possible :)
10:46:41AlexPIt looks much nicer with the better spacing you did though :)
10:47:22fmlAlexP: yes, that's true (to your first post). But since it's now localized at one place we can play with it.
10:47:36AlexPyes indeed
10:47:49fmlAlexP: credits for the spacing go to booktabs!
10:47:55AlexPhehe :)
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11:55:12ZagorFYI: Tomorrow I'll be taking down a while to upgrade disk and ram.
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12:40:20 Join zestrix [0] (
12:44:49zestrixgood day everyone! can anyone help me? i heard that you can install Dendy simulator on ipod video (5,5 generation). is it true& i can't find manual to this on
12:50:55gevaertszestrix: people aren't always looking at their screen, so they don't answer immediately
12:50:57 Join FOAD_ [0] (
12:51:16gevaertsAlso, not everyong knows the answer to everything. I for one have no idea what a Dendy simulator is
12:52:21zestrixi know. but there is 150 people). "i don't know" - is better then just silence. Thanks fo reply, gevaerts!
12:52:25 Join Utchybann [0] (
12:52:44gevaertszestrix: 150 people saying "I don't know" is better than silence?
12:54:04gevaertsfor you maybe, not for the other 149 people who want to read the log when they come back
12:55:14zestrixDendy - is a 8-bit platform for games, you know the Mario come from that thing
12:58:33zestrix - -?
13:00:23krazykitthere's no such plugin for rockbox, though you're certainly welcome to write one
13:03:05zestrixbad for me - i'm not good ad that sort of things. at all. (
13:03:35zestrixwhell, thanks for help.
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14:23:13UtchybannI have written a howto install ipod-time-sync and setup udev under linux. If someone can give me write perm on the wiki.
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14:26:29TorneUtchybann: what's your username on the wiki?
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14:29:02UtchybannTorne: good question ;) LaurentPapier
14:30:25UtchybannI also wonder what is the best place to put this page.
14:31:27gevaertsmaybe link to it from UsefulTools?
14:35:53Utchybanngevaerts: ok. Should I add it to 'Rockbox Specific Tools' or create a new 'Time Synchronization' table ?
14:36:34gevaertsI'd do a Time Synchronization block. It's not *that* rockbox specific (except for non-ipods of course)
14:37:23UtchybannI agree.
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15:08:09UtchybannIpodTimeSync wiki created. English improvement are welcome, other improvement too ;)
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15:30:34CIA-61New commit by teru (r22517): fix FS #10550. Start autostart.rock after gui_syncstatusbar_init().
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16:14:11bob_fpixelma: AlexP: There ya go, $50 for rockbox.
16:14:46AlexPbob_f: That is very kind of you, but I hope you don't think it was requested/necessary?
16:15:08bob_fAlexP: Of course not. I've used rockbox for years, it's awesome.
16:15:10***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
16:15:25AlexPbob_f: Well on behalf of the project, thanks very much :)
16:15:34bob_fI even read the manual, found out how to do playlists ! Woo. :)
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16:15:40AlexPhehe, good work! :)
16:25:01CIA-61New commit by teru (r22518): Rearange menu of mpegplayer. Add new menu with "settings" and "quit", and remove quit item from settings menu. ...
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16:30:22roolkuteru: I guess this breaks FS #8607? I don't suppose you would be interested in fixing it up for commit? :)
16:41:23CIA-61New commit by teru (r22519): fix red.
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16:48:15teruroolku: I'm going to resync it. is there anything shoud be fixed?
16:49:57roolkuroolku: my version didn't allow backward skip, but I could have made an error syncing it
16:50:09roolku(that was for teru)
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17:15:53cfpHello everyone
17:16:12cfpCould somebody have a look at FS #10563?
17:16:40cfpplease :)
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17:36:52BBBradleyIs it ok to use the -j4 option to compile using multiple processors?
17:37:48gevaertsyes. -j is explicitely supported
17:38:49gevaertsat least unless you're trying to build very old revisions...
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17:50:50BBBradleyawesome, thanks!
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17:52:41froggymanwhats the difference between and iPod mini 1st and 2nd gen?
17:57:51GodEatervisually, or internally ?
17:59:08 Quit petur ("work->shopping->home")
17:59:34GodEater2nd gen has the capacity written on the back I think
17:59:41GodEaterthe 1st gen didn't, cos they were all one size.
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18:02:32ej0rgeAlso, 2nd gen, the icons on the wheel match the color of the case (if the case is not silver, and if the wheel hasn't been replaced)
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18:55:34xakh_So, I remember that one of the summer of code projects for rockbox was porting to the newer sansas.
18:55:37xakh_how's that going?
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18:56:18Hillshumxakh_: It was the Sansa View
18:56:37xakh_yeah, that one.
18:56:46xakh_how's the status of the port?
18:59:14bertrikxakh_, as far as I know not very advanced, display doesn't work yet I think
18:59:48gevaertsthere's not really such a thing as "the newer sansas". There are several families in there
19:00:08gevaertsso if you want a useful answer, you'll have to be a bit more specific
19:02:14xakh_as I said, the View.
19:02:21xakh_how's the status of the View?
19:03:26LloreanNot yet usable.
19:04:33xakh_Even though it's sad news, good to know I can get it fast from you guys.
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19:05:38BdN3504i can't work with the new table format, how does it work?
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19:06:00BdN3504in the manual i mean
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19:10:18BdN3504on the wiki it says "% your table goes here" do i have to include "%"?
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19:12:52pixelmano, the % is the sign for "comment starts here"
19:13:12pixelmain LaTeX
19:13:34BdN3504i think that is misleading in the wiki
19:14:04BdN3504we should simply put a normal example there. i don't understand how to use the new syntax having read the wiki
19:14:24pixelmanew syntax?
19:14:43BdN3504it's rbtabular now, isn't it?
19:14:55BdN3504that's a new syntax to me
19:18:38JdGordon|has anyone kicked kugel in the nuts for the red yet? :)
19:19:25amiconnBagder: Is there a reason why logbot_ has an _ ?
19:19:29pixelmahe seems to be hiding
19:19:46Bagderit changes nick if it can't use the one it wants
19:20:05amiconnHmm, and it doesn't auto-change back?
19:22:16AlexPBdN3504: It is explained in the comments in preamble.tex
19:22:42AlexPwhere it is defined
19:24:20pixelmaAlexP: I found a suitable wiki page for the button tables style suggestion - LatexGuidelinesTalk, shall I put it there? (once I got home so I can paste the original suggestion)
19:24:38AlexPSounds ideal :)
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19:37:02notlisteninghow do i check when someone was last online?
19:37:15JdGordon|you ask logbot_ or us :p
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19:38:09notlisteninghe just joined so no need :D
19:38:17BdN3504can mono lcd targets display album art?
19:38:31JdGordon|mono or grey? or are they the same?
19:39:02gevaertsBdN3504: do you want the useful answer or the accurate answer? :)
19:39:12pixelmaBdN3504: mono can not, greyscale can
19:39:28AlexPBdN3504: Then yes they can, technically
19:39:35AlexPHowever that isn't the useful answer
19:39:43gevaertspictureflow does display album art :)
19:39:47notlisteningdomonoky, hi sorry i have been away for a long long time but have been quietly working on the sapi engine. I just wanted to quickly review where we are both at on this if you have a minute?
19:39:50pixelmawell, they can do so in pic...
19:39:55HillshumBdN3504: Pictureflow runs on everything but the Player
19:40:05pixelmabut not the WPS
19:40:19*JdGordon| thinks AA should be disabled on grey targets anyway... it looks like SHIT mostly
19:40:20AlexPindeed, but he asked for the accurate answer :)
19:41:10pixelmaJdGordon|: I don't think so - it's also dependent on the actual display and the size you are using it in
19:44:52domonokynotlistening: sure, i am still interested :-)
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19:46:43BdN3504is there a way i can adress the height and the width individually in the manual, like \lcd_height ?
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19:47:46BdN3504something like \genericimg{} only for the separate values
19:49:41*kugel had a chance to refine the custom statusbar patch
19:49:48kugelworking surprisingly fine now
19:50:10gevaertskugel: you mean it didn't earlier?
19:50:44kugelyea, I do
19:51:05*amiconn slaps kugel over the head with 82 points
19:51:21*kugel didn't know it would give warnings on prototypes for non-existing functions
19:51:25*JdGordon| kicks kugel in the nuts for the same reason :)
19:51:51kugelzz, working on it
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19:55:08CIA-61New commit by kugel (r22520): Do some #ifdef'ing to make the Player happy.
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20:18:09kugelfunman: hi, I did a little bit of disassembling for the fuze v2, I'm sure I found the button reading function
20:18:30funmankugel: nice! you hadn't yet the occasion to try it?
20:18:55kugelI had no cable with me
20:19:39kugelI'm a bit uncertain if I found the dbop_init function. it looks similar to the v1's version, but it doesn't touch CGU_* at all
20:20:16kugelhowever, there are loads of functions which are very similar each, just different by setting various CGU_* regs
20:20:41funmanhum that reminds me i still have no news from this ams guy
20:20:51funmani told him i'd contact him without news for 2 weeks
20:20:58funmani don't remember when we talked :)
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20:25:23funmanah too easy
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20:25:29funmangevaerts: welcome
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20:34:07BdN3504who will commit this? hard work, hope there won't be any errors left:
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20:38:03kugelhm, my file isn't recompiled even though a header that it includes changed
20:39:31bertrikmaybe you need to do make dep again then
20:39:40n1ssounds like a dependency bug
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20:41:10kugelbertrik: that did it
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20:42:01funmana take over from the FSF :/
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20:42:41saratogaapparently libfaad has a low power mode for SBR that greatly reduces the number of multiplies needed
20:42:48saratogait might be worth using for PP targets
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20:43:15saratogaalso, looking at the SBR code, I think maybe some of it could be replaced with faster versions from libmad and libmpc
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20:45:56Buschelsaratoga: just measured an atrac3 test sample on my PP502x -> 165MHz for decoding (138MHz for iqmf). After applying the small asm-code I've sent via mail -> 98MHz for decoding (~71MHz for iqmf -> twice as fast)
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20:47:01Buschelsaratoga: decods with minor dropouts on my (overclocked) iPod video ;)
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20:49:20kugelbertrik: that did it
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21:15:26kugelhm, I broke conditional viewports, somehow :/
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21:36:22Unhelpfulkugel: making the font buffer *really* big got rid of both the spinups and the corruption. i can't imagine there are really huge changes in the font buffer code for AAF, though?
21:36:47kugelthere are 0 changes to the font buffer
21:39:06Unhelpfulpossibly an existing bug is being exposed? the large buffer i used isn't nearly large enough to load the entire font into memory, but it seems to make the cache start working properly again.
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21:49:07kugelalthough the code is old and unchanged for ages, without problems
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21:49:30Unhelpfulbut we're changing something, the font size :)
21:49:38LearThat's no guarantee. :)
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21:51:01Unhelpfulan AA font with the same glyphs is going to be about 4x larger. and that's not considering that the larger glyph data may force the use of long offsets, as well.
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22:00:25kugelUnhelpful: long offsets?
22:01:05Unhelpfulkugel: the offsets table can contain either 16-bit or 32-bit values, depending on the size of the glyph data
22:01:49amiconnWell, Unifont uses 32 bit offset for sure, and it's working fine in svn
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22:14:55gevaertsZagor: are the bootloaders slow for as well?
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22:15:21Zagorgood point. checking...
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22:19:11Zagorgevaerts: yes they are
22:20:33saratogaBuschel: will you commit?
22:21:04Buschelsaratoga: I am right within asm'ing another part...
22:21:26gevaertsmaybe it's an artefact of how calibration is done : I just measure total used CPU time, not wall clock time, so if bootloaders can do less parallelism they'll get lower scores on multicore hosts (relative to full builds). Of course that shouldn't make any difference on single-core, and not much on dual
22:21:27saratogaah ok
22:21:58Zagorgevaerts: your last 20 build speeds are: 46 iaudiom3boot 260 sansafuzeboot 269 yh920boot 271 ipodmini1gboot 355 iaudiox5boot 424 ipodvideoboot 568 mrobe500 596 sansac200 606 yh925sim 678 ipod4graysim 700 iaudiom5 746 ondavx747sim 805 yh820 866 gigabeatfsim 1047 h300sim 1076 ondavx777 1127 h300sim 1161 cowond2sim 1164 ipodcolorsim 1512 ondavx747
22:22:10Zagor<speed> <target>
22:22:21saratogaBuschel: i only have a minute right now, but earlier I skimmed the AAC-SBR code, and it seems to depend on analysis and synthesis iQMF of 32 channels/1024 point blocks
22:22:37saratogaalso DCT-type4-32 point
22:22:39gevaertshm, ccache is really annoying if you want to understand speeds :)
22:22:40Zagorgevaerts: are bootloaders really that much less parallell?
22:22:48saratogaanything similar in MP3 or MPC? I think the DCT was there at least
22:23:46gevaertsZagor: a bit I think. I'll try to measure
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22:23:59Buschelsaratoga: sounds like having a look at the dct32 in libmad is a good starting point
22:24:59saratogabut first i need to trace through execution
22:25:04saratogathere is a lot of code in the SBR section
22:25:12saratogaand compile time options that use different ways to compute it
22:25:43saratogathere is a "low power" version of the iQMF that uses only real valued math and thus much fewer multiplication at hte cost of some alaising
22:25:48saratogai need to figure out if its worth using
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22:35:43fmlHas anybody tried to actally print the PDF manual (last day or two)? Are the thin white lines in the table headers really visible when printed?
22:36:06JdGordon|has anyone *ever* tried printing the manual?
22:36:33amiconnYes, me - about 6 years ago
22:36:45fmlAnd has anybody tried the 16GB micro sdhc cards with rockbox? I see they are available in amazon.
22:36:47amiconn(Rockbox 2.0)
22:38:10fmlJdGordon: only the interesting pieces of course. BTW: why are providing the PDF if nobody prints it? Why don't we switch to HTML only?
22:38:23gevaertspdf is easier to read
22:38:38LloreanAnd PDF is easier to download as a single piece.
22:38:41kugelfml: pdf is handier for downloading
22:38:47LloreanAnd PDF is less likely to render differently if you read it in different programs
22:38:54gevaertsalso, the fact that most of us don't print it doesn't mean that other people don't
22:39:10*JdGordon| honestly doesnt think anyone would print the manual
22:39:19JdGordon|but yes, PDF's are much better than html
22:39:25*fml agrees with JdGordon
22:39:35*bluebrother prints quite a bit of stuff at work, though that didn't include the Rockbox manual
22:39:42*gevaerts thinks that it's an established fact by now that the usage habits of devs are often somewhat different than those of other people
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22:40:01pixelmaI download the PDF when I search for something specific
22:40:20pixelmaand don't know where exactly I could find it
22:40:37fmlkugel: we could provide a one page HTML for downloading
22:41:00Hillshumand searching
22:41:11fmlit would be also better searchable
22:41:15gevaertsfml: with images?
22:41:26*gevaerts finds huge html pages to be nearly unusable
22:41:36pixelmafml: huge pages don't render well in Firefox, unless that changed recently
22:41:42fmlgevaerts: why not? You mean the loading time would be too high?
22:42:01pixelmait's just black after a certain point
22:42:05gevaertsfml: that too, but you said "for downloading"
22:42:06pixelmaand I agree with gevaerts there
22:42:32kugelI can't see any advantage of html over pdf
22:42:40fmlgevaerts: ah, yes! Slow thinking on my side! :-)
22:43:19fmlBut yes, tex is so wonderful for typesetting!
22:43:37JdGordon|if you're a masochist
22:44:01fmlJdGordon: I couldn't have written my diploma thesis in anything but tex.
22:44:21*kugel hands fml pen & paper :)
22:44:34fmlkugel: still no chance
22:44:47bluebrotherfml: what's the advantage in dropping the PDF? As long as the input format we get it "for free".
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22:46:32pixelmait's also the thing I could get building under cygwin (doesn't necessarily have to do with providing it though)
22:46:47fmlbluebrother: I didn't suggest dropping PDF specifically, but rather going to something page-less. If nobody is going to print the manual then we don't need the page structure. And this might (but only might!) be good for something (I don't know what though :-).
22:47:40fmlBut since pages are a sort of restriction, dropping it can't be worse than retaining them :-)
22:47:49gevaertsfml: call me old-fashioned but I like pages :)
22:51:36ZagorI would think a fair number of our users also feel more comfortable with multiple pages than a huge single page
22:52:02*pixelma thinks downloading a PDF (and find it useful) doesn't mean you are going to print it
22:52:19*Unhelpful greatly prefers that things he views on his computer fit the screen nicely, something that is pretty much impossible with PDF.
22:52:41gevaertsUnhelpful: it is. You just need a properly sized screen
22:52:49pixelmaUnhelpful: most htnl pages don't do that either...
22:53:08pixelmabut that's getting offropic here
22:53:16pixelmaofftopic too
22:54:53JdGordon|it would be nice if we had a pdf viewer so we could actually stick the manual on the DAP in release builds :)
22:55:22bluebrotherwe already could do that with a txt version
22:55:39JdGordon|wouldnt that look horrible?
22:55:59kugelor html, there's a html viewer on the tracker. not sure if that works well though
22:56:09bluebrotherhaven't looked at it for a long time, but the build system handles it.
22:56:30JdGordon|kugel: doesnt the html renderer just strip the text out and display that?
22:57:19 Quit fml ("CGI:IRC")
22:58:24kugelno idea
23:01:44JdGordon|any database ninjas?
23:05:31kugelthat <all tracks> is sorting alphabetically always annoyed me
23:06:03LloreanI thought that if you chose an Artist and opened the context menu, you got the "as if you parsed the tree in the order it shows" rather than the "all tracks" order
23:06:19LloreanSo you'd get Artist->Album1->Song 1-X, then Album2->Song 1-X etc
23:06:50LloreanIt seems to me like selecting any option in the database and choosing "insert" should parse through the sub-options rather than getting you the "All Tracks" entry beneath it, since if you wanted the All Tracks entry, you could just select it
23:06:54 Quit cfp ("Quitte")
23:07:18JdGordon|thats what I assumed... but no i tried it and its alphabetical
23:08:09kugelthat's probably because the database does the queue for the artist only if you actually enter it
23:08:26LloreanJdGordon|: I thought it used to before we had the <all tracks> entries everywhere
23:08:30LloreanIt sounds like we lost a behaviour
23:08:57JdGordon|could be, I dunno
23:10:01gevaertsZagor: CPU usage for various builds at
23:10:55gevaertsso yes, for many-core hosts bootloaders will get lower scores
23:13:27saratogawe should do multiple concurrent builds on many CPU hosts
23:14:20JdGordon|except single parallel builds are better for the chunky builds arnt they?
23:14:27gevaertspossibly. I'd like to try a set without -j, but that would take a long time so I'll have to pick a few builds instead of doing them all
23:14:57Hillshumhowabout send the bootloaders to the slower singlecore hosts?
23:15:02Zagorgevaerts: I still don't think that accounts for all the difference. look at the numbers I posted before. they show much more difference than your list.
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23:15:17gevaertsZagor: those do have ccache help though
23:16:31Zagorstill. look at the numbers. all bootloader are *very* slow. you'd think they have about the same chance (or actually greater) of being cached
23:16:51gevaertsshould be the same I think
23:17:46gevaertsMy main point is that ccache is likely to add some variation, just to make things harder to understand
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23:19:35Zagorit certainly does. but it ought to do it more or less evenly on the targets.
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23:19:56Zagorin your parallellism test the results only vary by a factor of two
23:20:48gevaertsI'm now running a reduced (m68k only, we can extend it later) no-j build
23:21:10Zagorwhile the actual build speeds vary quite wildly. and bootloaders are always crazy slow.
23:22:49gevaertsmy other hypothesis is that since bootloaders are a lot smaller, possible network-caused inaccuracies in the timing will influence them a lot more. That's a *very* wild guess though
23:24:02gevaertssingle-core builds are *slow*
23:24:07Zagoryes I've been thinking about that too, but I mesure in milliseconds and network lag ought not cause *that* much noise. and not so consistent across all clients.
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23:32:59gevaertsZagor: without -j bootloaders are not less efficient than regular builds
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23:33:22Zagorgevaerts: ok. thanks.
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23:44:18MG_Manwell anyway
23:44:59MG_ManAnyone remember the battery issue I mentioned"
23:45:11MG_ManI'll host te theme so someone smarter than me at it can tell me what's wrong
23:45:40gevaertsZagor: from what I can see in the database, on not-too-many-core clients (I looked at hex and hal), bootloaders seem to be either normal, or very slow. Maybe they're relatively much more vulnerable than regular builds to ccache misses?
23:46:43gevaertsI'd say that that 46 iaudiom3boot score on r.h.b is an outlier, caused by some other effect like other processes on the system
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23:50:58Zagorgevaerts: yeah, it seems they are slow simply because they are small.
23:51:21gevaertsyes. Just enough to throw your predictions off :)
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