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#rockbox log for 2009-08-28

00:06:51 Quit Hillshum (Remote closed the connection)
00:11:50 Join Hillshum [0] (
00:12:59 Quit bmbl ("Bye!")
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00:15:19***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:17:50 Join shamx [0] (
00:22:27Hillshumshamx: if you have a question, just ask
00:23:04 Join ender [0] (
00:23:35Zagormeh. it's not easy to beat brute force...
00:24:01HillshumZagor: What?
00:25:57ZagorHillshum: the build server
00:26:20*Hillshum still doesn't follow
00:27:05ZagorI'm trying various clever prediction and scheduling optimisations to avoid speculative building but it's very difficult since client speeds vary so much
00:27:42 Join _lifeless [0] (n=lifeless@
00:28:11Zagorthe fastest method is still to keep all clients building until the very end, speculatively
00:32:45HillshumZagor: are you keeping track of which client's done which to optimize ccache?
00:33:44ZagorI have the information, but I don't use it. ccache hit rate varies wildly depending on how the commit looks
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00:45:21kugelZagor: turned off now?
00:48:17Zagorno, its' network got unreachable.
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00:49:38Zagorthis is a bad week for rockbox...
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00:54:21 Quit ender (" Explaining a word requires other words which in turn must be explained with others, and so on and on without end. Communica")
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01:18:14kugelrasher: can we allow .psd/.xcf in themes? :(
01:18:50rasherkugel: No.
01:20:13*kugel would like to provide them with the theme
01:20:43rasherThey don't belong with a theme that users install on their DAP
01:20:50rasherProvide them somewhere else
01:23:25Unhelpfulamiconn: 16-ArialUnicodeMS is still about 2x the size of 16-GNU-Unifont... and there's *some* kind of problem that goes away if i bump the font cache size, and that causes weird things to happen, like parts of the statusbar text appearing elswhere on the screen in the userfont. perhaps a place that was missed where glyph size calculation needs to be changed to check font depth?
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01:48:05*kugel wants to note that 0.5k of his statusbar patch is the two filename settings (due to MAX_PATH)
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01:57:43shamxsrry i was away for a bit
01:58:02 Join intrados_ [0] (
01:59:27shamxbut my question is im trying to port the Samsung P2 with the rockbox firmware, and I have done a lot of looking around and saw that the D2 Fw will work with adjustments problem is I don't how to go about it, I'm familiar with C but not the Hardware side of porting and how to actually get it working.....
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02:02:03 Quit GeekShado_ ("The cake is a lie !")
02:06:45saratogashamx: someone was looking at it a couple months ago, but they vanished without doing much
02:07:05saratogayou could search the IRC logs or the forums for what they did and pick up after them, or else start somewhere else
02:07:14saratogai think they were trying to write a display driver
02:08:20shamxya thats hwat I read on the thread that the display gets messed up with the D2 Fw, problem is I dont' know where exactly they left off right now I'm starting from scratch
02:12:49saratogai don't think they'd really accomplished much anyway, so probably not much is lost if you start from scratch
02:13:19saratogathe datasheet is available for the display controller, and its easy to run code, so I guess dig through the D2 LCD driver and figure out what needs changing to work with the different screen size
02:13:33shamxhmm kk gunna look at the d2 fw and see whats done with it so far
02:15:21***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
02:19:10 Join goffa__ [0] (n=goffa@
02:24:08pixelmaAlexP: (in case you are still awake or for later) - looks like you broke the Gigabeat manuals - looking at the log of the BdN guy in the forum there is an error message saying "Undefined control sequence \n ActionRCPsToggleMode ->Long \ButtonPlay" and the last available PDF from the Rockbox page is of August 23rd
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02:35:42kugelmy custom sb patch even works on remotes \o/
02:40:37kugelMG_Man: have a few minutes?
02:40:41MG_ManSo for the h300. you need to first put on euro firmware, then you can put on rockbox?
02:41:15kugelI'm gonna put my custom statusbar patch on flyspray, with some h300 suitable test theme
02:41:36kugeldo you happen to have a remote also?
02:41:50MG_ManI don't have a DAP yet
02:41:55MG_ManI'm using the sims
02:42:14MG_ManGonna order an h300 either today or tomorrow though
02:42:16kugellooked to me as if you would have one
02:42:19MG_ManJust wanna make sure it all works
02:42:25MG_ManI will soon, don't worry
02:42:29kugelh300 is a good choice
02:42:37 Quit langzeitstudent_ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
02:42:44MG_ManI don't mind the size - I have huge hands anyway
02:43:01MG_ManAnd I can fit a TI-83 in most of my pockets, so that's a non-issue too
02:43:41MG_ManAnyway, I USED to have an iPod 3G with Rockbox on it though
02:43:54MG_ManIt got stolen though, but as to why anyone would want an old iPod is beyond me
02:44:01MG_ManBut, that's what iPods do :/
02:44:31MG_ManBut yeah, the h300 I'm planning to get comes with the remote, if that helps
02:48:55MG_Mananyway, I need your help with something now, a theme issue
02:49:29MG_ManWhen the battery meter reaches full, it then goes blank
02:49:51MG_ManHer'es so you can try it out, I don't see anything wrong with it myself that could be causing it
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02:52:35MG_ManNo, I found why
02:52:50MG_ManThere's a | at the end of the line where there shouldn't be
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03:04:08MG_ManAlright, final preparations for uploading it
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03:07:37JdGordon|kugel: yay, ill have a gander at your patch on the bus home
03:13:12kugelJdGordon|: Do that :>
03:13:24kugelit's awesome :)
03:14:14 Quit mcuelenaere ()
03:18:17Unhelpfulkugel: AAF updated... we're down to +1085B on ARM and +993B on coldfire :D
03:18:43 Quit JdGordon| ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.")
03:19:31kugelwithout a large speed hit?
03:19:43kugelI'd rather offer a bit binsize for maximum performance
03:20:57Unhelpfulthis shouldn't have a significant speed hit, it's only one extra multiply in the FG-color case, and the second multiply is replaced with a multiply-accumulate to avoid adding as a separate step
03:21:51Unhelpfuland there's never any testing for or updating an LUT
03:23:41Unhelpfulalso, the new loop logic would be very easy to adapt to word-at-a-time reads from the glyph data, which would be a pretty nice speedup on little-endian targets - i don't think we can do that on BE?
03:24:39kugelwell you would just need to swap it, wouldn't you?
03:25:01Unhelpfulyes, but would that be any faster than just using byte-at-a-time?
03:25:34kugelI'd think so
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03:26:06Unhelpfuldo we have a plugin that can benchmark text drawing somewhere? could always try that. :D
03:26:22kugelaccessing memory is slow, especially on cf, so I'd expect "burst loading" with a bit of fix up is faster
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03:27:35kugelUnhelpful: amiconn committed something a while ago, test_gfx or something. That benches drawing without lcd updating (to factor a dependency out)
03:30:03 Part Eduren
03:31:30kugelcustom statusbar is +1.7k binsize. 300 of which are making the skin tokens id3 == NULL safe
03:32:09JdGordon_you say that like its a bad thing?
03:32:11kugelram is more, at least +260 per screen for the filename settings, and 1.8k per screen for the gui_wps etc structs
03:32:35kugelno, *only* 1.7k :)
03:32:48JdGordon_fuck deltas... this is going in once its ready
03:33:25Unhelpfultest_gfx doesn't test text drawing :/
03:33:53kugelthis one is definitely worth 0.04s of mp3 playback
03:34:18kugelUnhelpful: add it ? :p
03:34:29Unhelpfulworking on that. :P
03:34:38kugeljust lcd_puts() "ROCKBOX" a thousand times
03:34:52JdGordon_kugel: my first thought is settings_apply_skins() should go *inside* the THEME_CHANGHED event handler
03:35:40kugelyou can skip the nitpicking :)
03:35:41MG_ManUploading theme now
03:36:10JdGordon_umm.. isnt that the point of code reviews?
03:36:33JdGordon_and first thought means i didnt think the consequences through.. but it logically makes sense
03:36:34kugelsure, go on
03:36:53Unhelpfulkugel: it seems to have something like that, i must've missed it in the output
03:37:25kugelsettings_apply_skins is settings code and belongs there IMO
03:37:32kugelviewport.c should mess with the filenames etc
03:37:58kugelshould *not*
03:38:05JdGordon_viewport.c shouldnt do anything other than say where each viewport is...
03:38:12JdGordon_and *maybe* do the refreshing
03:39:32kugelI think it's fine where it is (settings_apply_skins() and viewport_theme_changed() )
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03:41:46JdGordon_I'm saying i dont tihnk so... i need to look more closely
03:50:26JdGordon_using VOICE_EXT_WPS for the sb file is not really ideal either
03:54:07Unhelpfulhrm... we're actually a bit slower now. however, i can now inline the pixel blends and *still* see a reduction in the delta, so i'll try timing that.
03:54:58 Quit JdGordon_ (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
03:56:14kugelJdGordon: probably, I'll change that
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04:01:10JdGordoni dont think that one gets a probably....
04:01:21Unhelpfulinlining the pixel blends gets us about even with the "old" blends on beast... up a little, down a little, depending on drawmode
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04:22:31kugelJdGordon: any more comments on it?
04:22:51JdGordonill comment in the tracker
04:25:48kugelJdGordon: I'll add the patch to make tokens id3==NULL save also, going to commit it separately
04:26:10JdGordonany reason to not just do that one now?
04:26:30kugelnot needed right now
04:26:36kugelmaybe someone wants to look at too
04:26:49JdGordoni tinhk leaving that t rot is silly
04:27:04kugeloh, and the svn server is down :p
04:27:50JdGordonok, thats a good reason
04:29:49MG_ManAlright, the theme's up
04:30:07MG_ManLook in the h300/iPod Color/anything with 220x176 in
04:30:13MG_ManThe purple one with Quake 3
04:30:16MG_ManWhat do you think?
04:30:24JdGordonI tinhk its time for dinner
04:31:38MG_ManOkay well, when you're done eating delicious dinner, come look at delicious theme :D
04:31:58kugel6k ram, hrm
04:32:04kugelstill not much
04:32:27kugelcould be lower though (/me pokes JdGordon to finish the skin buffer conversion)
04:32:44JdGordonyeah yeah :p
04:32:57JdGordonsub/line handling doesnt work how I tohught it did so its complicated
04:33:16JdGordontonight maybe... hopefully.... depends how i feel after food
04:33:33kugelI'll blame you anyway :p
04:33:46MG_ManAnyway, I think its getting late
04:33:52MG_ManAny opinions before I go to bed?
04:34:14MG_ManAlso sleep is good, if only you coder-types used it :P
04:35:13JdGordonif we coder types used it, nothing would get done
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04:36:21MG_Manok, good night
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04:47:21HillshumIn Brickmania, shots fired cease to work after the paddle ceases to have the fire power-up. Is this a bug or feature?
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04:51:43Unhelpfulsounds like a bug to me.
04:51:57*Hillshum searches the tracker
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04:56:10*Hillshum compiles a sim to make sure it exists on that
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05:04:56HillshumYup, it's there
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06:15:30***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
06:18:53JdGordonis it a safe assumption that *most* skin lines wont have more than say 5 or 6 sublines?
06:20:37JdGordonI need to walk a linked list to find the next suitable list item (frequently).... is it better to use less complicated code and start the search at the start and remember the best until the "current" item, or start the search from current untill the end, then start from the beging again?
06:20:44LloreanAlternating sublines lines?
06:22:05LloreanI'd imagine the average number used is probably only 3 or 4, but I haven't really looked.
06:24:39JdGordonand most lines would only have 1 subline...
06:24:49JdGordoni.e lines *must* have at least one
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06:28:51*JdGordon doesnt understand the existing subline logic :(
06:30:00JdGordonhmm.... eeek
06:41:57JdGordonok, I *think* that sublines dont actually work as intended anymore... it looks like regrdless of the different subline timeouts it will still always do 1->2->3->1... if that makes sens
06:42:19safetydanthe rockbox dsp is 32-bit internally?
06:42:52*JdGordon has no idea
06:43:53safetydanhrm... I was almost sure that there were some codecs that had a higher than 16-bit sample output and the DSP handled this
06:44:11JdGordonhmm... CustomWPS suggests that that is how its supposed to work
06:44:32safetydanah, there's a comment in dsp.c that confirms its 32-bit internally
06:47:10JdGordondont trust comments :)
06:47:47safetydaneh, good enough for my purposes
06:47:57safetydanthat, and the int32_t types
06:49:09*JdGordon is very curois about some code which to me looks like its dead code
06:49:19JdGordonthis patch is going to need testing :(
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07:20:30Newanow that it's a bit more quiet, a question about hardware compatibility:
07:21:13NewaI have a e-cheapo mp3 player that has been flashed incorrectly and currently functions as a weird-shaped usb stick of sorts, but doesn't play anything
07:21:29NewaI opened the case and got these numbers inside:
07:21:36NewaTCH A105 V2
07:21:48NewaSamsung 843 K9G4G08U0A
07:22:47NewaIs is possible to detect from that if the player is compatible with rockbox, and if so, which model would most resemble it's functionality?
07:24:08Newa(big) pictures of the opened player here:
07:25:06JdGordonthere is no such thing as compatable with rockbox... rockbox has either been ported, is in progress... or not at all...
07:25:14JdGordonyours is in the 3rd category
07:26:34Newaok, so abandon hope for that strand
07:26:39Newathanks for the reply :)
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08:03:56amiconn[03:33:25] <Unhelpful> test_gfx doesn't test text drawing :/ <== Huh? See time_text() ...
08:04:31Unhelpfulamiconn: i did see... then i added a second pass using FONT_UI :)
08:05:59Unhelpfuldo the entire width and offset tables always stay in the cache? i don't really see any other way to use them, except by using some other, more complicated data structure to cache data about glyphs
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08:12:49amiconnUnhelpful: Some simple math tells me they can't
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08:14:37Unhelpfuli'm just trying to figure out how much of the font cache is actually available for glyph data. it seems unlikely to me that a screen worth of text should be filling the cache, so that it has to hit the disk at every redraw.
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08:15:01amiconnUnifont has 55000+ glyphs. The font buffer is only 4000 bytes on archos, but unifont is usable
08:15:32***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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08:16:46Unhelpfulit looks like the font buffer on beast should be 60000B. that's enough for 15 screens worth of 4bpp bitmap data, and it's a bit hard to believe it can't actually fit glyphs for all on-screen text in the cache, even with their widths and offsets.
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08:21:58JdGordonUnhelpful: isnt the font buffer much huger then that already?
08:23:48UnhelpfulJdGordon: the "max static loadable font buffer size" according to the comment in font.h is set to 60000
08:27:08amiconnThe font buffer is either 60000, 10000 or 4000 byte depending on target (ram size and lcd height)
08:27:13amiconnSee font.h
08:29:44Unhelpfulperhaps the glyph sizes are being calculated incorrectly for 4-bit glyphs, and they're being allocated more space than they need?
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08:36:16*Unhelpful wonders whose idea it was, exactly, to call the log2 of the actual font depth "depth" everywhere. :/
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08:41:53Unhelpfulespecially when it's doc'd in the header as 0=1-bit 1=4-bit
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08:47:31Unhelpfulhrm. glyph size calculation is *definitely* wrong for 4-bit fonts, which are only padded to bytes at the end of the glyph, not at the end of each line, and aside from that aren't padded in units of 8px either.
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09:02:27JdGordondidnt we enable the shadow variable warnings in gcc?
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09:12:11GodEaterdoes anyone know if we've got anywhere with charging on the ipod video yet ?
09:12:19GodEateror are we still best to charge from the OF ?
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09:23:21ZagorFYI: The upgrade is postponed until next week.
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10:05:10peturZagor: what's up with the build table?
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11:03:15Zagorpetur: I started a test run of 519 and then the svn server got temporarily unavailable so all clients quit :-) I'll re-run it
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11:06:38CIA-61New commit by alex (r22521): Fix Gigabeat F manual. Thanks to Marianne Arnold for pointing out it was broken.
11:06:54AlexPpixelma: Thanks, not sure how I missed that
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11:13:18AlexPThe theme site is CC-BY-SA only right? So if a theme is GPL licenced someone can't upload it without permission to change the licence from the original author?
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11:26:33BdN3504online manuals don't work, stop at chapter 3
11:27:01BdN3504can you charge supported ipod nanos only via OF?
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11:31:17AlexPfml: The new line rules (to make the colour fill the box) seem to break html manuals. Any ideas?
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12:41:43Unhelpfulkugel: it turns out reading the bitmap in whole words is actually *slower*on my beast and e200. i'll keep the code around in case somebody wants to test it on a color coldfire, maybe it works out better there.
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12:44:06kugelUnhelpful: hm, strange
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12:46:18Unhelpfulwell, i have a special case for UPDATE_SRC if 2 pixels are read at a time. perhaps losing that optimization is enough to offset any gain from the larger reads, or perhaps the extra setup cost per glyph is the problem, since it needs to check glyph alignment and possibly skip some data.
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12:48:40kugelhm, convttf'ing a single file without -o doesn't work
12:49:43Unhelpfulit doesn't? works fine for me...
12:50:41kugelI get a segfault
12:51:06kugel"for i in 10 12 14; do ./convttf -p $i /usr/share/fonts/truetype/monof55.ttf; done"
12:53:09kugelthough I have some local changes
12:54:02kugelah my bug
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13:01:36kugelUnhelpful: how much slower is aaf?
13:01:41kugelcompared to mono
13:06:07kugelUnhelpful: using an old font with the new patch still gives horrible slowness, a new font doesn't work at all :/
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13:10:37ddaltonhi, how do I patch h300 bootloader on linux, since rbutil to my knowledge is qt and won't work with orca. I'm blind so need a screenreader, and the orca screenreader doesnt work with qt
13:11:18kugelhave you actually tried rbutil?
13:12:19ddaltonnope cos its qt, so why bother?
13:12:30ddaltonwhy go to all that effort when u kno it'll fail?
13:12:37kugelwhat effort?
13:13:02ddaltonum? finding the binary, downloading it, extracting it, running it... why bother if it won't work?
13:13:07kugelqt *has* accesibility features, and I've heard orca works with rbutil, so I would bother
13:13:29ddaltonmmmm really?
13:13:38kugelyes, really
13:17:38ddaltonwell i hate to tell u, but orca doesn't support qt.
13:17:44ddaltonand I've proven that by testing it
13:18:17ddaltonSo, if I come here asking for help, I don't need an education on my screenreader thank you
13:18:46ddaltonbut thanks anyway
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13:19:12ddaltondo u kno how i can do it manually?
13:20:12ddaltonsorry about my response, its just a little frustrating
13:20:31ddaltonlike when someone who doesn't use these tools on a daily basis tells u to do something u kno won't work
13:20:46ddaltoncos its documented in a milion places
13:20:54kugelyou still haven't tried it, did you?
13:21:02ddaltonnah i just did then
13:21:15ddaltonrbutil: inaccessible
13:21:19funman "If you want an accessible GUI at the moment you need to stay away from QT4." dated 3 weeks ago
13:22:02kugelthis alex wallis is using rbutil with a screen reader though
13:22:12funmankugel: i think it's different on windows
13:22:49ddaltonmmm yeh saw that, but it didnt hexplain how to do it on linux from wat i saw only on win
13:24:29funmanyou can try building fwpatcher on linux from the source, i'm not sure why the people who released the binaries didn't think of linux/osx
13:25:15ddaltonmmmm is the source easily available? seems like a fair bit of effort, is there a win user here that wouldnt mind doing one for me?
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13:26:02kugelwhy a windows user?
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13:27:27funmanLinusN: is there a reason there are no binary releases of h300 fwpatcher for linux and osx ?
13:28:05LinusNnot that i can think of
13:28:25kugelno demand? :p
13:28:35LinusNkugel: probably
13:28:53ddaltonLinusN: kk, i found the sources for fw patcher: how should i compile them for h300?
13:29:01ddaltonmake says
13:29:24ddaltonmake target `bootloader-h100.bin', needed by `resource.o'.
13:29:55ddaltonKugel, sorry. Just not sure the best way to do this;-)
13:30:14funmanthe makefile doesn't support linux compilation
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13:30:45ddaltonso wat r my options then to patch h300.hex on linux
13:30:59funmanat the moment, none
13:31:44ddaltonmmm looks like ill be resorting to a sighty
13:31:54ddaltonthanks guys
13:31:57LinusNyou should be able to do it by hand, using mkboot
13:32:29ddaltonLinusN: how? just run configure n choose bootloader?
13:32:36funmantools/iriver.c is really a copy of tools/fwpatcher/iriver.c
13:36:26ddaltonah great, thanks
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13:38:15Unhelpfulkugel: old fonts are partly to blame for the horrible slowness, convttf was hugely overreporting the max width of the font. i didn't check out "old" convttf to see if it has this bug, though, i've only been working with my exact-fit version.
13:38:56kugelmonofur converted with your latest version doesn't work at all
13:39:22kugelmakes the whole line entirely white
13:39:35kugeleven ignoring viewport boundaries
13:39:45kugelthe right-hand boundary at least
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13:40:40Unhelpfulok, i'll try downloading monofur tonight and see if i can't find a problem
13:41:08ddaltonshould my old bootloader (about 2-3 years) still boot the latest version of rockbox?
13:42:25LinusNddalton: it should, unless it is so old that it looks for rockbox in the wrong directory
13:42:44ddaltonwait so in the current builds there is still a rockbox.iriver file?
13:42:44kugelUnhelpful: I uploaded my convttf, see tracker. It doesn't have algorithmic changes, just naming scheme.
13:42:52ddaltonin the .rockbox directory
13:43:00LinusNddalton: oh yes
13:43:19LinusNthe latest official bootloader is from 2006
13:43:31Unhelpfulcorbel, ms arial unicode, and a highly non-redistributable merge of dejavu sans and ms arial unicode all worked for me :/
13:43:45LinusNat least in the wiki
13:45:17ddaltonmmm somethings not right with my compile
13:49:52kugelUnhelpful: dejavu doesn't work either
13:50:09ddaltonah this looks better
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14:09:14ddaltonLinusN: u still around?
14:10:46ddaltonjust curious mate, whats the story with time voicing atm?
14:11:04ddaltonbeing a while since I upgraded, and seems from a quick glance only way to check time with voice is system>time>set time and date
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14:14:08LinusNddalton: sorry, trying to work at the same time
14:14:26ddaltonoh sorry.
14:14:34LinusNunfortunately, i haven't worked much with any rockbox development for quite some time
14:14:52ddaltonmmm neither have i its been the better part of a year
14:14:53LinusNso i honestly don't know anything more about the time voicing
14:15:14ddaltonmmm its rather odd if it's the case anyway
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14:27:34Unhelpfulkugel: you didn't happen to try it unmodified?
14:29:51kugelno not yet
14:30:18kugelUnhelpful: maybe my make & c flags are incorrect, wanna have a look?
14:30:52*kugel was having similar problems with wrong make flags with that patch a while ago
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14:36:48Unhelpfulthe makefile on the FS task builds it with -ansi, and without -std=c99. i've also built it with neither.
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14:37:45kugelUnhelpful: with neither means gnu89, that gives a good deal more warnings
14:38:01Unhelpfulugh, i see some assorted cruft in there
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16:08:10pixelma_na toll
16:08:36pixelma_sorry, wrong channel
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16:13:47kugelpixelma: had a chance to test my pla rework patch again?
16:14:48*kugel wonders whether to commit it pre-3.4 or post
16:15:13gevaertshow ready is it?
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16:16:25kugelwell, it touches (roughly) a dozen plugins and every target, so I can't really tell without heavy testing :)
16:17:02gevaertsin that case I'd vote for just after :)
16:17:11kugelon the other hand, it's still 4 (a whole third of the cycle) until the release
16:18:16kugeland it doesn't touch the key plugins (i.e. pictureflow and lamp :p )
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16:18:38pixelma_haven't tried the last version yet
16:18:46gevaertsthat means only two weeks until the freeze though. I'm not sure, maybe that's enough...
16:19:04kugelthe freeze doesn't have much to do with it
16:19:50gevaertsyes and no. You can of course still fix serious bugs during the freeze, but it's not something to plan for I think
16:20:09kugelevilnick: what are you referring to with your post to the ui vp thread?
16:20:25kugelI think that's exactly the plan for the freeze
16:20:36kugelI don't think it has serious bugs
16:21:08kugelwell I never *plan* to fix serious bugs anyway, as I don't plan for serious bugs in the first place
16:21:24evilnickkugel: Precisely what I typed! How can a black and white screen show a "bright" colour? It was more about the manual than the UI change
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16:21:54kugelI didn't find "flashing warning" in that manual
16:22:46pixelma_the thing is that you change quite a bit and even if there are only small bugs left they could possibly stay "unknown", whereas the current version has the "known bug" of some plugins not working correctly with regards to the controls, not sure
16:23:18pixelma_(regarding getting the PLA rework in during the freeze)
16:23:41kugelI meant to commit it pre-freeze if at all (of course)
16:24:14evilnickIt's in the Conditional Viewports section just under the EXAMPLE (page 2 of 7). And is a *really* minor thing.
16:24:21pixelma_ok, then I misunderstood
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16:25:22kugelevilnick: ah found it, envince sucks apparently for searching pdfs
16:26:16kugelI think comments to that manual patch should go in the tracker
16:27:24kugelgevaerts, pixelma: I'll go for post-release. Known bugs are better than possible unknown. And it's not exactly easy to deactivate for a release
16:27:53gevaertskugel: how about the custom statusbar patch? Does that have a chance?
16:28:06kugelgive it a try :)
16:28:25*gevaerts will make a build with it tonight :)
16:28:48kugelit doesn't have major problems, I think I tried all combinations of classic+custom/no+custom+/custom+whatever/no custom at all one can imagine
16:29:27AlexPkugel: Fatal words, you can be sure that there is some super obscure combination that one person is using now :)
16:29:38kugel"I think"... :)
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16:33:41kugelAlexP: if gevaerts uses it, any super obscure combination will show up :)
16:34:10AlexPhehe :)
16:34:15gevaertskugel: prepare for lots of questions on how to use it!
16:36:38kugelthe statusbar one is at least rather easy to deactivate.
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16:42:42Blue_DudeWho wants to hear about a conditional viewports bug?
16:43:10gevaertswe'd prefer not to ever hear about bugs
16:43:26kugelBlue_Dude: Nobody (as gevaerts said)
16:43:52kugelbut I guess we can't stop you from telling anyway :\
16:43:58Blue_DudeI found one, but I don't know if it's the same one you've been working with.
16:45:03Blue_DudeIn some circumstances, the WPS won't update when changing tracks while paused. The non-conditional viewport will update but the conditional viewports won't.
16:45:25kugelthat sounds familiar
16:45:45Blue_DudeOK, then you know. That's all I was going for.
16:46:34kugelBlue_Dude: do you have that wps handy?
16:46:59Blue_DudeIt's a customized one. Want me to send you a copy?
16:47:24kugeland get the cloak finally :p
16:48:13kugelI found that conditionals aren't evaluated if the viewport they're defined in is hidden
16:48:14Blue_DudeCloak? Still don't know exactly what that is.
16:55:37kugelBlue_Dude: any idea what the circumstances are?
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16:56:08terukugel: I can't find .sb file in in the tracker. is it correct?
16:56:54*kugel reuploads
16:58:21kugelthere you go
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17:00:25Blue_DudeWhen I'm done listening to a playlist, I often wait for the end of the track before bookmarking. When I do, I'll pause at the end of the track and skip to the next track and bookmark from there. When I do, the conditional viewport will not update to the next track information but the non-conditional viewport will.
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17:01:14kugelis that depending on the album art somehow?
17:01:51Blue_DudeThe conditional viewport is conditional on album art being present, yes. If present, one will show. If not, the other will show.
17:02:11kugelthat bug might on the other head not be related to conditional vps but with the way how retrieving the next track works as well
17:02:29Blue_DudeMaybe. But WPS screens without viewports work fine.
17:02:30kugelI meant the occurence of the bug
17:02:53kugelhave you tried next track info outside of a conditional vp?
17:03:19Blue_DudeYes. The non-conditional viewport shows track info, and it updates normally.
17:03:46kugelthe next track info
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17:03:58Blue_DudeThe conditional VP shows current and next track info. Neither is updated.
17:04:17Blue_DudeThe non-cond VP only shows current track.
17:04:47kugelHave you tried having the *next track* info outside of a cond vp?
17:04:48Blue_DudeNext track info is a little flaky regardless. Sometimes it takes a while for it to catch up.
17:05:04Blue_DudeI would settle for current track to show correctly.
17:05:14kugeltry that please
17:05:28kugeljust to kill the possiblity of a bug elsewhere
17:05:59Blue_DudeNot sure where you're going with it though.
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17:25:49Blue_Dudeok. Next track info in a non-cond VP is still flaky.
17:27:25Blue_DudeThis is interesting: the bug still exists when the viewport is non-conditional. But the viewport is labeled. When the viewport is shown with %V all is well. When it's shown with %Vd is doesn't update correctly.
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17:29:11kugeli.e. it works correctly with plain %V, but not with %?COND<%Vda|%Vda>?
17:29:55Blue_DudeIt doesn't even work right with %Vda. Conditional or not.
17:31:02kugelJdGordon may have an idea, he committed cond vp and reworked it recently too
17:31:24Blue_DudeYeah. I assumed it was a condition thing too, but it's the labeled viewport that does it.
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17:34:18kugelit's still a condition thing
17:34:34kugelevery vp with a label gets the "possibly hidden" flag
17:35:42Blue_DudeOK. But it doesn't appear to be the %?COND syntax that does it, but the %Vda syntax. Even if they're parsed the same way.
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17:41:11webguest74#rockbox: is anyone here?
17:41:18webguest74is anyone here?
17:41:48webguest74i need some help...
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17:42:09cfpwebguest74: ?
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17:44:17ej0rgewebguest74: well, spit it out
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17:50:04Blue_Dudekugel: I'm kinda confused. I'm trying to "fix" the bug by using non-conditional tags and viewports and I still can't nail down what's going on. It works correctly as long as I'm not near the end of the file. If I am paused at the end of the file (- 2 secs or so), then the WPS won't display correctly even without conditional language.
17:50:40kugelah those 2s are a nasty time frame
17:51:09kugelthat's when the track actually already changed internally, but the pcmbuffer didn't empty yet
17:51:30webguest74oh sorry!
17:51:35webguest74i was reading a manual....
17:51:47webguest74k so i have an ipod it from my brother.
17:52:09Blue_DudeThe %pp tag updates correctly but the %iX tags will not.
17:52:11webguest74and he has rockbox on it..but the automated installer doesnt reconize that rockbox is installed...
17:52:25webguest74??? srry i dont get it..???
17:52:51webguest74and now I'm trying to update it...and wondering how to update it if its not reconized
17:53:10webguest74its an ipod nano 1st gen
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17:54:50kugelBlue_Dude: Rockbox has shown it doesn't function proplery during that 2s in many places
17:54:50 Quit webguest03 (Client Quit)
17:54:54Blue_Dudekugel: it's not a viewport thing at all. Cabbiev2 (no viewports) won't work either in that circumstance. I don't remember it being a problem before though.
17:55:26webguest74wha??? can someone explain what you guys are talking about?
17:55:42Blue_Dudewebguest74: different issue. Don't worry about it.
17:56:09webguest74so what do i do to update the firmwire?
17:56:18webguest74everythings backd up to my pc.
17:56:29webguest74or do i also update the loader?
17:56:32domonokywebguest74: the install tool wont detected that rockbox is already installed. but does it detect the ipod ?
17:57:04domonokyso just use the "install Rockbox" button to update to a newer version.
17:57:22 Join explore [0] (
17:57:30webguest74so i DONT. need to reinstall the boot loader.
17:57:59pixelmaonly if the one before is reaaalllly old
17:58:06domonokyno, unless your bootloader is very very old its not necessary. the bootloader rarly changes.
17:58:09webguest74umm...I dont know how old it is.....
17:58:13JdGordon(07:48:17 AM) kugel: I found that conditionals aren't evaluated if the viewport they're defined in is hidden <- that is by design... although I could see why that could cause problems because the next track stuff is all statis
17:58:14webguest74how do I check?
17:58:21JdGordonalthough hmm... it shouldnt
17:58:45kugelJdGordon: but I hide the default and %Vi viewport for the statusbar
17:59:14pixelmawebguest74: is a bootloader version displayed if you turn the Ipod on?
17:59:24webguest74gimmie a sec
17:59:29domonokywebguest74: it also doesnt hurt to install the bootloader again, so you can also just install it again, to make sure its the newest.
17:59:41kugelhence doing the image definitions and stuff like %?mp<%Vda|%Vdb> in the default or after %Vi is problematic
17:59:49webguest74will it leave my past music and stuff and games there?
17:59:58webguest74or will it b gone?
18:00:03*kugel doesn't understand that design decision
18:00:12Blue_DudeJdGordon: the problem I'm having is that when stepping around from the end of a track the %iX tags aren't updated consistently. This is true whether they're in a conditional statement or not.
18:00:14domonokyyes, everything should stay.
18:00:26 Join MoD_ [0] (
18:00:29domonokybut backups are always a good idea :-) long should it take..? I'm really scared that the ipod will screw up...then my bro would kill me...XD
18:01:12kugelBlue_Dude: that's because the UI is supposedly in sync with the pcm buffer, but that one can't announce when a track changed in the pcm buffer
18:01:40domonokywebguest74: if you are able to follow directions, the only proove way to destroy a ipod is to use a hammer :-)
18:02:13Blue_Dudekugel: So the UI just doesn't know where it is so it punts?
18:02:32kugelkind of that, yea
18:03:20kugelfeel free to work on that :)
18:03:29Blue_Dudekugel: So somewhere there's a regime that recognizes that the codec is filling the next track but playing the current one, so freeze the tags so avoid confusing the user...
18:04:19Blue_DudeAnother wonderful weekend project. Thanks, I think...
18:04:42kugelplayback.c apparently know when the pcm transition happened (it does send the event to the wps), but I guess since you paused it isn't active
18:04:44JdGordonBlue_Dude: no, what happens is playback "finishes" with the current track and actually moves on to the next track, WPS stll thinks the current track is playing, and untill PCM is really finsihed with that previous track Wierd Shit Can Happen!
18:05:32JdGordonand yeah, because you have paused it during this time.. all bets are off
18:05:33Blue_DudeJdGordon: So the problem is that the WSCH routine is confused!
18:05:37 Join Hillshum [0] (
18:05:56Blue_DudeMakes perfect sense.
18:06:11Blue_DudeI'll get right on that, along with the rewrite of playback.c
18:06:28kugelWSCH ?
18:06:30JdGordonawesome :)
18:06:44Blue_DudeWeird Sh*t Can Happen.
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18:08:29JdGordonin my mind it should happen more like this... playback just does the buffering, when the end of the song is approaching *nothing* happens untill PCM sends the "track finished" event which gets to play*list* first which updates and then WPS updates
18:08:38Blue_DudeActually, that fits in nicely. I've been thinking that there should be some way of determining exactly what is going out the hardware *at this instant* . It's the best way of mixing on the fly, which is vital for last second software mixing.
18:09:18JdGordonyou can work that out easily... its codec position+pcm_latency iirc
18:09:19kugelah so the pcmbuffer knows when it finished?
18:09:25JdGordonI belive so
18:09:34kugelor is that latencly a fixed value?
18:09:35*pixelma thinks fixing this being a weekend project is verry optimistic
18:09:55pixelmaif I'm not mistaken some people already tried
18:09:58Blue_DudeBut it doesn't know when it's finished with a particular track. It's all one long stream.
18:10:10Blue_Dudepixelma: I was being very facetious.
18:10:13JdGordonyee of little faith pixelma
18:11:06pixelmaok, don't let me discourage you :)
18:11:26amiconnBlue_Dude: Fyi: The plugin api version bump in was unnecessary
18:11:44Blue_DudeOf course, it would be easier just to redifine the "weekend".
18:12:02JdGordonBlue_Dude: moral of the story is dont pause during that track transition time
18:12:25MoD_hi all, i need help with this command "rb->open(KEYBOX_FILE, O_RDONLY);" - what should it do, create a file?
18:12:40amiconnIt was a fix for the hwcodec targets, which didn't build due to the immediately preceding commit. But if they didn't build, the api doesn't need to be bumped again
18:12:46JdGordonkugel: I didnt get to look at the bar patch enough... I tried doing sub/lines but thats apparentyl alot more complicated than I though/hoped :(
18:12:49Blue_Dudeamiconn: I bumped the version, but not the min version. Isn't that the point?
18:13:09Blue_DudeAh OK.
18:13:41kugelJdGordon: no problem, I'm not seriously thinking of getting it in pre-3.4 anyway
18:13:45Blue_DudeTHought it was necessary for backward compatibility. You can make it go away if you like.
18:14:12Blue_DudeJdGordon: i do it all the time. Can't help myself.
18:14:32amiconnThe min api needs, and should, only be bumped if there are incompatible changes. Adding new stuff at the end is exactly for keeping the min api version fixed in the standard case
18:15:12Blue_Dudeamiconn: If that's the case, why have two version numbers?\
18:15:28amiconnThe current api version needs to be bumped whenever something is added.
18:15:31Blue_DudeIf only one is needed to show compatibility, then just use that one.
18:15:46***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
18:15:48amiconnThey are both needed
18:16:07Blue_DudeSo when would you bump one and not the other?
18:16:24kugelBlue_Dude: plugins that use added stuff are not compatible to the API before the stuff was added, the api bump is needed for those
18:16:34amiconnI just explained... I'll try a different way
18:16:46Tornethey're a minimum and a maximum, effectively
18:16:50Blue_Dudeamiconn: only need to bump for hwcodec targets?
18:16:54Torneyou can't run plugins older than min api version because things may have been moved
18:16:56kugelall other plugins can still use an older api since they do not use the new stuff, and since it's added to the end, it's not incompatible.
18:17:03Torneyou can't run plugins newer than the api version because they might use things not in that core
18:17:35amiconnBlue_Dude: If you add new functions, add them at the end and bump only the current version
18:17:47Blue_DudeWell, I added to the end, and bumped the version, but not the min version. Still backward compatible but not the same as before.
18:18:01 Quit AndyI (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
18:18:02Torneyes. that's right
18:18:16Blue_DudeWell, I did that and now it seems it was wrong.
18:18:24kugelyou didn't need to change in this particular case because nothing changed for SWCODEC, and HWCODEC didn't even build before
18:18:34amiconnIf you have to do an incompatible change (remove a function from the api that no longer exists, a function changes parameters etc), bump both versions, and take the chance to sort the api
18:19:17amiconnMy point regarding r22395 is that you bumped the api version a second time immediately after r22394, which was unnecessary
18:20:01amiconnr22395 effectively only changes the api for hwcodec (because the function became ifdefed for swcodec), swcodec api hence stayed the same
18:20:11Blue_DudeI didn't bump it in r22394, which is why I fixed it in r22395.
18:20:36amiconnBut r22394 failed to compile for hwcodec, so it couldn't have run on them
18:20:50MoD_have somebody time for a newcommer like me, please? :)
18:21:03amiconnSomehow I remembered that you did....
18:21:21kugelMoD_: I already told you, you need "O_CREAT|O_RDONLY" instead of only "O_RDONLY"
18:21:37n1sMoD_: it should open the file in read only mode
18:21:56Blue_Dudeamiconn: I didn't bump twice. I just failed to bump it the first time, so I took the opportunity when I fixed it for hwcodec targets.
18:21:59MoD_ok i will try, thx
18:22:18kugelBlue_Dude: it's alright then :)
18:22:26n1sMoD_: out of curiosity, what are you doing?
18:22:29Blue_DudeOh good. I was mighy confused.
18:22:41webguest74GUYS IT WORKED!
18:22:41amiconnBlue_Dude: Yeah, saw that now. Somehow I thought you bumped twice...
18:22:54MoD_i wanna try the keybox
18:23:15MoD_but it does not file will be created
18:23:21n1sMoD_: ?
18:23:31amiconnBlue_Dude: Btw, the two api versions exist so that 3rd party plugins don't need to be recompiled everytime something new gets added to the api
18:23:33kugelJdGordon: care to explain that design decision? It was giving me slight headache
18:23:42MoD_the plugin "keybox"
18:23:59amiconnThe idea was that there would be several 3rd party plugin - I don't think that actually happened though
18:24:26Blue_Dudeamiconn: No prob. I got it.
18:26:06 Quit darkham (Client Quit)
18:26:20n1sMoD_: i know of the plugin, i wrote it, i wonder in what situation no file is created, as it WFM
18:27:31MoD_i run it on sansa e200v2 hardware and on simulator, both does not work. what is wfm? - sry i am new
18:27:42kugelamiconn: not even the plugins on the tracker offer prebuild binaries, eventhough we allow that :(
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18:29:30n1sMoD_: WFM - Works For Me; I've sucessfully used it on both simulator and at least 3 different targets so i wonder why this is happening
18:29:57n1smaybe i should try an e200v2 sim then
18:30:22MoD_yes please do this an give me a feedback
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18:32:00gevaertskugel: do I need to set a ui viewport for the custom status bar?
18:32:52kugelnot necessarily
18:34:03kugelthere's 3 options, 1) use a ui viewport, b) insert %Vi into the .sb which describes the ui viewport that's not interfering with the sb (ie the ui viewport the .sb is supposed to work with), 3) weird drawing effects and garbage on screen :)
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18:34:40gevaertsDon't you really need (1) and (2) to be really sure?
18:34:42kugelin case of 2) it'll automagically apply the %Vi vp as ui viewport.
18:34:47gevaertsah, ok
18:35:49kugeldoing 2) is recommended, a combination of 1) and 2) works too (%Vi is still applied for the wps' default viewport)
18:36:58kugelthe test themes have 1) and 2), the ui viewport is different to %Vi though.
18:37:12pixelmawhat happens if you don't specify full width for the statusbar viewport?
18:37:32kugelnothing bad
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18:37:53kugelyou can also have a |S|MENU|S| layout if you like
18:38:19kugelthe only restriction is that the menu/ui viewport is 1 piece
18:38:46n1sso multiple "statusbars" are possible?
18:39:10gevaertskugel: so the statusbar skin draws on the full screen, and has to take care to keep out of the way of the yu viewport?
18:39:13n1si think it needs a new fancy name then!
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18:39:43MoD_is somewhere a list of all rockbox instructions?
18:39:44MoD_where could i see what is possible to use? - only out of the sourcecodes
18:39:44kugelgevaerts: no, it only draws in the viewports you specifiy (except for the default and %Vi vps)
18:40:12gevaertsah, ok
18:40:19*gevaerts thinks he is beginning to understand this
18:41:05n1sMoD_: yeah, the source is probably the best place to look
18:41:48kugelthere was an attempt of a documentation (two actually)
18:42:47MoD_sure, but before this i only write programs with basic/delphi its a litle bit hard at startup in c
18:43:01n1syes, the source is very reliable documentation though, it does what it says it does :)
18:43:24kugelit's not as comfortable as a book on the other hand
18:43:58kugelgevaerts: viewport-less statusbars are unsupported for that reason
18:44:12gevaertskugel: I think I understand
18:44:17kugeldrawing fullscreen causes bad effects
18:45:14MoD_n1s: did you find anything?
18:45:17gevaertsI guess %wd now means "disable the standard status bar"?
18:45:43kugeln1s: this shows multiple bars
18:45:56kugelgevaerts: %wd is ignored
18:45:57n1sMoD_: patience. my atom takes a while to compile a sim :)
18:46:36n1skugel: ggghhhaaaarRRRR! pokerface, arghH!!
18:46:57n1sthe bars are cute though
18:47:09kugelI'm not planning to add the possiblity to draw both the classic and the custom statusbar, it complicates things, because the custom statusbar acts as a normal statusbar for the rest of the code
18:47:41 Quit gartral ("Why must we be chicken or sheep when we have the blood of the Fox, Wolf?")
18:49:15*gevaerts clearly did something wrong with coordinates :)
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18:49:17pixelmaso, %we would enable your "custom" statusbar, or do I always see this bar in both screens (WPS and lists)?
18:49:32n1ssigh, the sansa sims seem to lack keydefinitions for numpadless keyboards...
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18:49:54kugel%we does nothing in a .sb file, %we doesn't behave differently for .wps files
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18:50:18kugeln1s: e200 sim? no
18:50:23pixelmaI meant in the WPS
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18:51:03pixelmaso it enables your custom status bar then?
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18:51:11kugel%we shows the bar you configured in the settings, going to classic bar at top (the default value) if it's off in the settings
18:51:23n1skugel: according to the UiSimulator page they are missing, but if you know them, please tell
18:51:48kugelaren't the keys printed on the background image?
18:52:15pixelmathe num keys (in most cases except the Clip IIRC)
18:52:26kugel7 is rec, 8 is scroll backwards, 9 is play, 4 is left, 5 is select, 6 is right, 1 is power, 2 is scroll fwd, 3 is menu
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18:53:24n1skugel: yes, on the numpad, found them in the code, seems end, home etc should work
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18:53:35kugel%we is a pretty useless tag since the statusbar can be placed at the bottom too
18:54:05 Quit martian67_ (SendQ exceeded)
18:54:15*Strife89 spots a broken spot in the manual.
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18:56:02n1sMoD_: keybox works fine for me on the e200v2 sim, file is created and can be read again etc
18:56:31kugeln1s: he found a line where O_CREAT isn't passed, it shouldn't create files in that case
18:56:47MoD_why does it not work on my pc and on my sansa?
18:57:06 Quit JdGordon_ (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
18:57:13MoD_no creat also not work
18:57:56gevaertsCan anyone remind me if the x and y coordinates after %Cl are relative to viewport or screen ?
18:58:08n1skugel: no, it checks that the file is present before that call to open is made so O_CREAT should make no difference
18:58:22kugeli see
18:59:00kugeldamn, gevaerts tries album art
18:59:11gevaertsof course :)
18:59:17kugelI have no idea what's going to happen to be honest :)
18:59:20gevaertsI know it's not guaranteed to work
19:00:00kugelwe don't have any support for different album art sizes, so I guess either the wps or the sb ignores the size and shows the single one (if at all)
19:00:32gevaertsI'm first trying the same size everywhere
19:01:10MoD_now i tried the game "Black Jack" on the Sansa e200v2 and it does not save the game .... anyone knows why i could save nothing?
19:02:09 Join martian67_ [0] (n=martian6@about/linux/regular/martian67)
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19:03:11*n1s wants a wiki admin to rename UiSimulator to UISimulator
19:04:05pixelmagevaerts: I guess %Cl behaves the same as other bitmaps - that would mean coordinates are relative to the viewport the %C is in
19:05:27kugelthat's correct
19:06:51kugeln1s: the theme is on the tracker
19:08:03n1swhat theme, the one with 2 bars?
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19:15:31kugeln1s: yes
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19:28:42AlexPStrife89: Yeah, we know - I'm waiting for fml :)
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19:34:51MoD_cu all have fun!
19:35:07 Part MoD_
19:35:21kugelgevaerts: how does album art turn out?
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19:38:03gevaertskugel: not very well. It's gone now from the wps as well...
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19:40:37kugelsame size?
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19:41:56gevaertshm, there's a lot more that seems wrong. Let me check first
19:43:44kugelbtw, I think timestrech is broken
19:44:01*gevaerts seems to have mislaid some viewports
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19:49:13BdN3504how do i go about changing the keyboard layout in the "Rockbox Dev" Debian VMware image? xf86cfg does not work, dpkg-reconfigure console-data let's me choose, but does does not change anything
19:49:19SansaOwnerMattI need some help
19:49:44SansaOwnerMattanybody here know about Sansa c240s????
19:49:53 Join iamben [0] (
19:49:55SansaOwnerMattMine is bricked
19:50:03SansaOwnerMattthe blue light shows up and that's all
19:51:55BdN3504SansaOwnerMatt: patience is a virtue. if anyone can help you, he/she will.
19:52:06SansaOwnerMattYou can call me Matt
19:52:16SansaOwnerMattit said "Matt" and "Matthew" were already taken o_O
19:52:24SansaOwnerMattBut anyway I've tried e200tool
19:52:44SansaOwnerMattAnd I've flashed new i2c on it
19:52:50SansaOwnerMattAnd still just the blue ring :P
19:53:07SansaOwnerMattBut I want to verifiy I did it right
19:53:47SansaOwnerMattsudo ./e200tool recover i2c.bin [I shortened the long file I downloaded from a form to "i2c.bin"]
19:54:08SansaOwnerMatt'Execution Started!"
19:54:31SansaOwnerMattThen it goes back to ubuntu@ubuntu:~$
19:55:35SansaOwnerMattIf you can help, drop me an email! Thx.
19:56:03gevaertswhat dile exactly did you download?
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20:08:53n17ikhHas there ever been any work done on automatic dimming of the screen at night for car adapter mode?
20:09:36bertriknot as far as I know
20:10:18bluebrotherthat's a rather fuzzy question. Some players do support a brightness setting in hardware, and those can set that. Players without hardware supporting brightness can't do it, and nobody implemented it.
20:10:18bertrikhow do think this can be done automatically? based on time of day? or maybe based on being plugged into a dock or not?
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20:10:34n17ikhwell, I was thinking either time of day, or twiddling some GPIO pins
20:10:43n17ikhbased on whether the lights in the car are on or not
20:11:03bluebrotheralso, on some players (like h100) this would eat up more battery than not dimming it due to the fact that dimming requires boosting the CPU, thus it's not wanted.
20:11:06n17ikhthis being the e200
20:11:18n17ikhwell, for me, it's plugged into a car adapter
20:11:21n17ikhhence car adapter mode
20:11:34n17ikhmaybe I'd be better off hacking up a patch to change the setting
20:11:59n17ikhor change the keymap to make the wheel change brightness instead of volume while plugged in? that seems silly though
20:12:03bluebrotherwell, my e200 has a brightness setting.
20:12:26bluebrotheryou can simply load a new cfg when plugging it in which sets the brightness to a different level.
20:12:39n17ikhwell, the problem is that it's plugged in all the time
20:12:43n17ikhnot only when it's dark
20:13:19n17ikhtime-of-day seems easiest to implement
20:13:39amiconnSetting brightness based on time of day (and year) alone doesn't work - you'd also need the geographic latitude
20:13:39n17ikhyou'd have to have some sort of table or calculation based on the date as well, and the latitude
20:14:05n17ikhor have an application that you run on your computer once to generate some table when you input latitude
20:14:11amiconnThat's why this method is only implemented in gps devices
20:14:34n17ikhand if you travel north-south more than a few hundred miles, it'd become useless
20:14:47JdGordon|or add a light sensor to the front of the device
20:14:57n17ikhif you're adding hardware, yeah
20:15:08amiconnAnd even then it cannot take cloudiness etc into account, so it's not a very useful method
20:15:35bertrikit could be useful, even when not perfect
20:15:50***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
20:16:02n17ikhwell, cloudiness isn't much of a problem, because even the darkest clouds don't attenuate enough light to make it annoying/dangerous to have a bright screen in the car
20:16:07n17ikhat night it's a different story
20:18:05n1sanyone have any i
20:18:44*Llorean would like to point out that he's seen days darker than some nights in some regions.
20:18:53LloreanEspecially when the street lights turn on based on time, rather than darkness.
20:19:26JdGordon|yeah, early afternoon clouds can make it pretty damn dark in winter
20:19:40LloreanWhat's wrong with just having the backlight fade shortly after button presses?
20:19:56n17ikhbecause then you can't see the screen without pressing a button during the day
20:20:08n17ikhand yeah, you can set "first button press brings up the backlight"
20:20:18n17ikhbut, the point is that you should just be able to glance down to get song informatino
20:20:20n1sanyone have any opinion on either letting the rtc_(read|write)_datetime deal with the tm struct directly instead of this cumbersome and useless conversion to and from BCD because that is what ONE chip uses natively and that chip happened to be first
20:20:21n17ikhinformation, even
20:20:44Lloreann17ikh: You shouldn't be taking your eyes off the road at all, when driving.
20:20:59LloreanIt sounds like your feature request is "encourage me to look away from the road more"
20:21:09bertrikn1s, sounds like a great idea to change it
20:21:11n17ikhI'm an american, we drive with our knees while drinking coffee and shaving
20:21:46n17ikhno, the feature request is "make it so I don't have to browse around in the LCD options while driving"
20:22:02JdGordon|but brightness on your quickscreen?
20:22:19LloreanIf you weren't choosing to look at the screen, you wouldn't need to change options. Drive safely, then, and it's not a problem.
20:22:21LloreanUse voice.
20:22:45 Quit Sajber^ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
20:22:49kugeln1s: also change clean up tuner.c, 90% of it is target specific code and in that file for no reason
20:22:59n17ikhI didn't think voice read file names or announced id3 info
20:23:22n1skugel: one thing at a time :)
20:23:43LloreanIt can read filenames just fine.
20:23:51LloreanSo have a good folder structure, and you're set.
20:24:00n1sbertrik: yeah, it should kill off a fair deal of eseentialy unecessary code
20:24:08LloreanBut really, your playlist doesn't go away, you can check what song was playing later once the car has stopped if you really have no clue what music is on your player.
20:24:30n17ikhit's an OCD thing
20:24:45n17ikhI always know what song it is, because I tend to have listened before
20:24:55LloreanSo then you don't need the screen.
20:24:59n17ikhbut I feel the need to check and see
20:25:09LloreanSo think of this as additional therapy. :)
20:25:11kugeln1s: just saying :)
20:25:11n17ikhbut that's not the point.
20:25:28LloreanYou want a relatively complex feature for a very minor thing.
20:26:02n17ikhyeah, which is why I was asking if anyone had wanted it before. I was going to hack up a patch myself if not, because it's probably not that useful for most people.
20:26:23 Quit faemir ("Leaving")
20:26:24n1splacing two cfg's in the root, and setting it to start in the filebrowser is pretty easy
20:26:35iambenmy e200's fs and/or partition table seems borked, can i just repartition w/ one big vfat partition? it seems to have a second partittion, type 84 "OS/2 hidden C: drive"
20:26:52LloreanDo we have different backlight levels for hold on/off, or just toggling whether or not the backlight may be on while on hold?
20:26:55iambenor should i just mkfs on the first (large) partition?
20:27:05kugeln1s: or just use the quickscreen as JdGordon already proposed
20:27:16n1siamben: the second one is the firmware partition, don't mess with it ;)
20:27:34n1skugel: right, I never use that...
20:27:44HillshumLlorean: The latter plus the time delay
20:27:55n17ikhwhere's the documentation on how to configure the quickscreen? I've been looking for a few minutes on it
20:27:59n17ikhI've never done anything with it before
20:28:12iambenn1s: is it normal that fdisk -l complains a lot about cylinder boundaries and other stuff?
20:28:24bertrikI wouldn't mind a kind of 'idle' backlight level
20:28:31n1siamben: don't think so, i'
20:28:37n1sm no sansa expert though
20:28:37Torneiamben: yes, it's trying to enforce ancient PC BIOS restrictions that don't matte rin the modern world
20:28:42kugeln17ikh: go to the setting of your desire, hold select, and choose where to attach it in the qs
20:28:51n17ikhkugel: Ah.
20:28:53Tornenobody cares if partitions start on cylinder boundaries any more
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20:29:02Lloreanbertrik: A brighter one on keypress but a dim-but-not-off when it goes down?
20:29:18bertrikso for example, when pressing a button the display goes bright, then dimmer after 10 seconds or so and off after 2 minutes
20:29:18LloreanTBH I'm surprised we don't have that. It's pretty standard these days
20:29:23iambenTorne: its also saying "Partition 2 has different physical/logical beginnings (non-Linux?):"
20:29:23kugeln17ikh: if you set it at the bottom, you can even toggle into the opposite direction with up in the qs
20:29:31Torneiamben: likewise
20:29:45bertrikLlorean, yes, something like that
20:29:48n17ikhkugel: thanks. I'll look into that in a bit, my player's in the car
20:29:50iambenTorne: thanks
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20:29:58Torneiamben: the CHS geometry in the partition table is probably nonsense, but that's ok as nobody uses that if the LBA data is there
20:30:02Lloreanbertrik: I'm not sure it needs three levels (Bright, Faded, Off)
20:31:29bertrikLlorean, then I'm not sure what you mean
20:31:45LloreanJust bright and faded.
20:31:50LloreanI don't really understand why you need three levels
20:32:01LloreanThere's "bright" after a keypress, and faded or off after it returns to idle
20:32:24bertrikI think it still sucks power when dimmed, although I don't know how much to be honest
20:32:40LloreanIt does, but if they don't want to suck power, why not have it turn off?
20:32:47LloreanWhat's the purpose of a dim period if they already don't need the light on?
20:34:00iambenTorne: as long as its normal im not worried about it... i had some FS corruption and was afraid the p.table was damaged too, ill just remake the FS and move on
20:34:42bertrikLlorean, so in your idea, the faded level would optionally replace the off-level, right?
20:34:45Torneiamben: unless it says partitions overlap or extend past the disk it's probably fine
20:35:03Tornelots of formating tools do weird stuff with ptabls these days
20:35:13Torneespecially on memory cards
20:35:30*kugel thinks that would kill the feature (replacing off with choice between off and dimmed)
20:35:31Lloreanbertrik: Yes. It might be useful to save power but still have a visible display on some of the color LCDs, for example.
20:35:43Lloreankugel: Why would the other feature even be useful?
20:35:53kugelno idea
20:35:55*amiconn would also want configurable bright->dimmed->off
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20:36:06LloreanWhat purpose does the dimmed period serve, exactly?
20:36:12LloreanIf you're going to off, anyway
20:36:25kugelI'd eventually use it
20:36:37kugelright now I have backlight on for 2min
20:36:56kugelI'd choose to have 5s normal, and additional 2min dimmed
20:37:03amiconnMy cellphone does this, and it's very convenient e.g. when playing (java) games like sudoku
20:37:21LloreanWhat does it achieve, exactly?
20:37:34LloreanIf you can see the screen at the dimmer level, why not just have it dim like that as the normal level and save power the whole time around?
20:37:35amiconnIf you think a bit longer, the display dims down, saving energy but not hiding everything immediately
20:38:10amiconnAnd if you put it away, backlight will still go off completely
20:38:12bertrikfor touchscreens it can help to know where the buttons are
20:38:53Lloreanbertrik: Which is a reason for it to stay on but dim, rather than go off completely.
20:39:46amiconnLlorean: With configurable bright->dim->off, you can of course configure it to never go from dim to off
20:39:53 Quit robin0800 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
20:39:57*kugel wonders what not having dimm separate achieves
20:40:02bertrikI can see your point
20:40:15Lloreankugel: Less needless complexity?
20:40:29LloreanWhat does having a third level accomplish that you can't do with two, functionally speaking?
20:40:39amiconnWell, you'd save a setting, but at the price of less flexibility
20:40:42kugelI know the backlight code a bit, and the added complexity is about the same for both
20:40:53Lloreanamiconn: What is gained by that flexibility?
20:41:00kugelyou need to add a setting for both cases too, same complexity again
20:41:02LloreanIf you can see the screen at a dimmer level, why do you need the brighter first one?
20:41:54amiconnkugel: No. You need a setting for the dim level in both cases. Setting the dim level to zero means off.
20:42:13amiconnFor bright->dim->off, you need a second timeout setting, but that's it
20:42:14Lloreankugel: You need more options to set two times, two brightness levels, and their relative plugged in and hold options, than with a setting that just lets you replace "off" with a brightness level
20:42:21kugelamiconn: that's what I said
20:42:56amiconnkugel: Afaiu you said that the number of settings would be the same, which isn't true
20:43:04LloreanIt's literally twice as many settings.
20:43:11kugelboth cases need a setting added
20:43:17bertrikthe time between bright and dimmed could be the same as the buttonlight timeout
20:43:25amiconnkugel: No, the full version needs *two* settings
20:43:35amiconnThe dim level, and the timeout for the dim state
20:43:46kugelthe dim level?
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20:43:51amiconnbertrik: For targets without buttonlight
20:43:59kugelSorry, I expected that to be hardcoded to the lowest brightness level
20:44:15amiconnI wouldn't expect it to be hardcoded
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20:45:08amiconnIn fact this is something I was planning to add one day, just didn't get around to actually doing it
20:45:37kugelIt's not quite clear to me why one would want the *idle backlight* to be anything else but the lowest possible brightness
20:46:02bertrikit could be *too* dim
20:46:18LloreanYou'd want the idle backlight to be the dimmest level that's still visible in the ambient light, in many cases.
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20:48:06JdGordon|does the backlight use so much battery that it actually does anything by dimming it for a while instead of just leaving it on slightly longer?
20:48:33 Quit funman ("leaving")
20:49:23kugelJdGordon|: depends, but that's what I'm doing currently
20:49:55kugelon as3514 and as3525 the current is linear to the level
20:50:05kugel1.25mA per brightness level IIRC
20:50:22bertrikas far as I know, the backlight on full power takes about the same or more current as the other parts of a mp3 player
20:51:14JdGordon|which works out to what if you dimm it for 30s instead of keeping it full for 30s?
20:51:37JdGordon|an extra 2 min battery life?
20:51:37bertrikit depends on the particular target of course
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20:54:38bertrikhm yes, the savings aren't that great indeed
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20:54:46kugelgevaerts: any success?
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20:58:26amiconnJdGordon|: On some targets the backlight at full brightness sucks more power than all the rest (except hdd where applicable)
20:58:51 Join dys [0] (n=andreas@
20:59:32amiconnAnd in addition to the power saving, the dim level can be used as a reminder that the backlight will soon go off
20:59:49 Quit snuupy ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)")
21:00:16amiconnLike a fade-out (which isn't possible on all targets which can set brightness), but also more flexible (ie. longer
21:01:41JT|workI just accidentally bought a sansa e200 v2, not realizing there was a version incompatible with rockbox, but then I read on the abi forum "test builds for the v2 players do seem to be functioning fairly well at this point.
21:01:58JT|workis that true? if so, where can I find one of these test builds?
21:02:41 Quit __lifeless (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
21:03:00bertrikJT|work, on the rockbox forums we have a test build forum too:
21:03:23Strife89LambdaCalculus37: How long do you reckon a full charge takes?
21:04:37JT|workthanks, bertrik. can you vouch for its stability? or is it still super-scary beta?
21:05:05bertrikno, I can't vouch for it, use it at your own risk
21:05:35JT|workfair enough
21:05:50JT|workis there something specific I can look for when shopping for a v1 player?
21:06:06JT|workthe only advice I've read online says to turn it on, go to setings, info, firmware version
21:06:07saratogaask whoever you buy it from if it was a V1 player
21:06:14JT|workI can't expect retailers to do that for me
21:06:30kugelthat's the only reliable way though
21:06:45scorche|shwell, if it is a big-box retailer, it is very unlikely it would be a v1 anyway
21:06:46saratogayou won't find a V1 retail so no worries there
21:06:46JT|workthat's what I was afraid of, it's really not in the model number at all
21:08:03 Quit Strife89 ("Goin' on a trip.")
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21:13:02*pixelma is a bit surprised that a cover.widthxheight.bmp one level above the currently playing song still takes priority over a cover.bmp inside the folder
21:13:41pixelmacan be discussed but I didn't expect that
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21:22:15gevaertskugel: I've been doing other things, so not yet
21:22:29 Join Strife89 [0] (
21:23:50 Quit bmbl ("Bye!")
21:26:53LambdaCalculus37Strife89: I would give it 2-3 hours.
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21:34:05froggymanis it possible to read a playlist from tags instead of by file names?
21:35:44evilnickfroggyman: To display the tags, you mean?
21:35:56evilnickfroggyman: When you're viewing the playlist
21:36:02Hillshumor to have the tags in the m3u?
21:36:08froggymanevilnick: yeah, thats what I means
21:36:33evilnickfroggyman: There was a patch for that in FlySpray, IIRC
21:37:15evilnickfroggyman: Although I have my files as "track# - title - artist" which allows me to see most of the info that I want to in that screen anyway
21:38:06 Quit Strife89 ("Leaving")
21:38:15froggymanevilnick: I tend to add a lot of music to my iPod via iTunes as it is easier this way when your friends only use iTunes and have their music everywhere
21:38:35froggymancan you recommend a tagging program?
21:39:59*pixelma recommends the UsefulTools page in the wiki
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21:44:43rick_wWhy aren't all the apps listed in the Wiki in the apps folder on my device?
21:45:09evilnickrick_w: Where in the Wiki?
21:45:28bluebrotherwhat apps folder? Are you referring otto plugins?
21:46:51bluebrotherand you've checked if all those "apps" are supported on your player?
21:47:02bluebrotherfurther, you checked that the "apps" you're missing aren't viewers?
21:47:09LloreanAnd some of them are games or demos.
21:47:47rick_wOk, the one I was looking for seems to be in the demo folder, I only looked in the 'apps' folder
21:48:18bluebrotherand the "apps" supported by your player as well as the categories are described in the manual
21:48:31bluebrotherwhich has been written for fun, not for being helpful ...
21:48:36rick_wI have an H340, so many apps are supported :)
21:49:28bluebrotherthis doesn't mean that _all_ are supported.
21:49:36rick_wI have the manual open in front of me and I actually read it for over 80%. No RTFM here
21:51:21evilnickWell, only another 20% to go then :)
21:52:24rick_wThose are just the appendices, might come in handy when I bump into something
21:53:07 Quit martian67_ (Connection timed out)
21:53:35bluebrotherAlexP: the html manual is broken? Any pointers why?
21:53:41Lloreanrick_w: Well, considering the manual tells you about the plugins, it's a good bet you missed *something* if you were asking in here about them.
21:54:18*Strife89 recommends the PDF manual for all but quick lookups.
21:55:03AlexPbluebrother: Yeah, it is the replacements for top, min, and bottom rule that fml introduced to have better positioning in r22516
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21:57:46bluebrotherAlexP: well, then that needs to get \ifpdf{}{}'ed.
21:58:04rick_wLlorean: I just didn't realize that they were in seperate folders. I only knew I was missing an app becasue I read it in the manual in the first place ;)
21:58:13bluebrotherifpdfoutput rather.
21:58:40bluebrotherthat stuff won't work for html output anyway.
21:58:44AlexPbluebrother: Yes, I was just waiting to try and see him first
21:59:05AlexPBut I'll have a play with it now anyway :)
21:59:14 Quit LambdaCalculus37 ()
21:59:27bluebrotherI should really try to get rid of opt{} ...
21:59:44Lloreanrick_w: The manual should even have them categorized as applications, demos, viewers, and games.
22:00:04 Quit Hillshum (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:00:38rick_wLlorean: The Wiki lists them in one big list, that's where the confusion started. I should have stuck to the manual
22:01:05AlexPbluebrother: I'll leave that to you :)
22:01:20rick_wAnyway, I'm off to check out the new firmware and thanks for all the effort that you've put into this firmware
22:05:05evilnickrick_w: The Wiki does have a description at the top of what Viewers are, but you're right. That big list is not split out by type of plugin
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22:15:51***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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22:31:19AlexPbluebrother: This seems to fix it:
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22:39:02bluebrotherAlexP: well, if it fixes it commit it :)
22:39:13AlexPrighto :)
22:39:19gkahlawhere did the reference to the Jaunty MTP xml file fix go?
22:39:35gkahlacan't find it in the wiki
22:39:38AlexPIt should still be on the wiki where it was
22:39:48 Quit Hillshum (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:40:18gkahlaPERFECT!! evilnick, I owe you a beer!!
22:42:49CIA-43New commit by alex (r22522): Fix building the html manual broken by the new top, mid, and bottom rules introduced in r22516
22:45:21Buschel_saratoga: you there?
22:47:18 Join Zagor [242] (n=bjst@rockbox/developer/Zagor)
22:47:35*bluebrother looks at the preprocessor output and starts to swear
22:48:39 Quit hd (Client Quit)
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22:49:27bluebrotheris there any way to tell the preprocessor to actually remove lines instead of replacing them with newlines?
22:53:07Zagorbluebrother: afaik no. C doesn't normally need that.
22:54:13 Quit merbanan (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:54:21kugelyay for CPP in the manual
22:55:16Zagorif it causes problems, replace it
22:56:51 Quit evilnick ("Page closed")
23:01:22 Part gkahla ("Leaving")
23:01:34bluebrotherZagor: :(
23:01:46bluebrotherthat way we can't use cpp for the manual.
23:04:20Zagorhow complex conditionals are there in the manual? only ifdef or also if (DEFINE == val)?
23:04:59AlexPThe former but we would like the latter
23:05:18Zagorperhaps this could be used instead:
23:05:40AlexPFor instance we currently have a large_plugin_buffer define - it'd be nice just to say if buffer > x
23:06:20Zagorthere's also
23:06:53bluebrotherZagor: currently we have "only" the opt package which only checks if a variable is set. My hope was to gain more complex things
23:07:26Zagora limited syntax parser should be fairly simple to hack together
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23:09:58n1sbluebrother: being able to use the values of defines in the manual text would be nice too, for things such as battery capacity, volume limits etc
23:10:36n1sbtw, i thought latex didn't care about newlines much
23:11:24AlexPn1s: yeah, that'd be very nice
23:11:29kugelbluebrother: how bad are a few extra newlines? One could also run a script after CPP to collapse consecutive newlines
23:13:42bluebrotherkugel: and how would you recognize an inserted newline? TeX treats two consecutive newlines (i.e. one empty line) as a new paragraph, just collapsing newlines won't work here.
23:14:05bluebrotherApart from that are multiple newlines no problem −− they are always treated as new paragraph.
23:14:44 Quit Strife89 ("Gotta go.")
23:15:33bluebrothern1s: TeX doesn't care much about whitespace, indeed. But as two newlines are the marker for a new paragraph any removed block becomes a new paragraph −− and there is no way to tell if there was an intentional paragraph before substitution.
23:16:56n1sbluebrother: hmm, maybe it can be worked around by always replacing with %, it's a bit clumsy though
23:17:22kugelhmm, difficult. How about using a special char throughout the manual for intended paragraphs. Run CPP first, then delete any single newlines in a scipt, and finally a script to replace the special paragraph char with double newlines?
23:17:38bluebrotherunfortunately not really −− at least not with the preprocessor. But that looks promising.
23:18:10n1s#if FOO some text #else % #endif
23:18:11kugelhopefully it's compatible enough to CPP to include config.h properly. It looks like
23:18:33gevaerts<?FOO|something|something else>
23:18:51bluebrothertoo bad, it can't calculate :(
23:18:57Buschel_mt: you there?
23:20:26n1sso ,
23:20:44n1stime to recruit a perl hacker to make a decent pp
23:20:59*AlexP nominates gevaerts
23:21:13gevaertsme? perl?
23:21:18AlexPyup :)
23:21:31 Quit Bagder (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:21:31gevaertsyou're insane
23:21:33 Join JdGordroid [0] (
23:21:43AlexPI'm also joking :)
23:21:45kugelCPP is open souce. Couldn't we just hack into it to change that behavior? Probably easier than writing our own
23:22:39n1sbut then people would need to compile/install our special CPP to build the manual
23:22:53*gevaerts hopes that kugel is also joking :)
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23:23:30kugeln1s: it would be in our source, compiling it could be done in the same run. We could also have a prebuild binary in SVN or on our download servers
23:23:33kugelgevaerts: not at all
23:23:53kugelIt seems there are a few nasty workarounds :)
23:24:49kugeln1s: I don't think asking people to download our small CPP is bad, they apparently already downloaded 300MB+ of latex before :p
23:25:35bluebrotherbuilding a tool for building the manual isn't a problem IMO. We need gcc on the host anyway.
23:25:36 Quit JdGordroid (Remote closed the connection)
23:26:13n1sI don't like it, some of the people interested in helping out with the manual seem to have enough trouble as it is
23:26:33bluebrotherthough I don't think hacking cpp is a good idea. Instead starting with a small cpp would be better. Probably fcpp, though that doesn't support -P right now.
23:26:39kugelI think the luxury of being able to use CPP is worth it
23:27:27 Nick petur is now known as gevearts (n=petur@rockbox/developer/petur)
23:27:36kugelthe opt stuff itself is complicated enough to scare some interested contributors away too
23:27:44 Nick gevearts is now known as petur (n=petur@rockbox/developer/petur)
23:28:20bluebrotherthat's not the problem −− cpp won't make that much better. The bigger problem is that it has unexpected behaviour sometimes.
23:29:12AlexPand things like nopt can't be used in the same way as opt
23:29:21AlexPnopt(x,y) doesn't work for instance
23:29:27kugelwhat about my suggestion of using a unique intentional paragraph char?
23:30:19bluebrotherthat would require changing everything, plus it's completely incompatible in how LaTeX works. People working on LaTeX should expect that paragraphs work like paragraphs work, not different.
23:30:36bluebrotherotherwise we would create our own language. Which is a bad thing.
23:30:38kugelyea, it's nasty
23:31:39bluebrotherhacking some cpp implementation or creating a simple one that fits our needs is a much better solution. Having cpp directives in LaTeX sources is kinda weird anyway.
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23:35:23bluebrotherhmm, gpp looks interesting.
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23:42:41gevaertsis checkwps expected to work these days?
23:48:06moosgevaerts: mculemaere fixed it recently IIRC even for remotes
23:48:29gevaertsit compiles, but it just says "WPS parsing failure" whatever I try
23:49:05moosoops *mcuelenaere
23:49:39moosmaybe it was just rebreaked very recently, google+logs could say you more...
23:51:49gevaertswell, I am using the custom status bar patch...
23:52:47moosoh, ok
23:54:10moosgevaerts: is this suposed to go in, before or after the futur release? I don't fully folowed
23:54:24gevaertsthat's undecided yes
23:54:37gevaertsit depends on how much I manage to break it :)
23:55:02mooshehe :)
23:55:14moosa jobe for a new RSB... ;)
23:57:51 Quit killan ("( :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: )")
23:57:56moosNice to gain in esthetic, if performences aren't really affected. I saw that Unhelpful/kugel are on the AAF front too.

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