#rockbox 2009-09-24

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#rockbox log for 2009-09-24

00:00:17	CIA-43	New commit by kugel (r22812): Restore the sentence that describes unusable ports from r22808.
00:01:25	kugel	gevaerts: can you deactivate usb on the ipods?
00:02:29		Part Erant ("Leaving")
00:03:38		Quit bluebrother ("leaving")
00:07:30	CIA-43	New commit by kugel (r22813): Modify version strings for 3.4
00:12:34	gevaerts	kugel: not now
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00:15:34	linuxstb	kugel: "targets which have only code and just a bootloader but nothing else are not even unusable" <−− Some targets in that list are at that stage (which is how I think it should be).
00:16:27	kugel	so it should list everything that has code in SVN but is not stable or unstable=
00:16:37	kugel	then it lacks a number of targets
00:17:31	kugel	I think it should at least be able show the main menu
00:17:35	*	linuxstb wonders about JdGordon's addition to TargetClassifications - http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/bin/rdiff/Main/TargetClassifications?rev1=3;rev2=2
00:17:59		Quit bubsy (Client Quit)
00:18:04	kugel	yea, that's where I got the idea from, and I agree with that
00:18:15		Quit ender` (" I have never won a debate with an ignorant person. -- Ali ibn Abi Talib")
00:18:24	linuxstb	kugel: I disagree - getting a bootloader working on a device is a major task, and worthy of at least "unusable" IMO. A working bootloader means the hard problems are all solved (accept perhaps audio playback)
00:18:37	linuxstb	s/accept/except/
00:18:46	linuxstb	i.e. LCD, buttons, NAND/disk reading.
00:19:06	linuxstb	And of course a way to run third-party code.
00:19:16	JdGordon\|	linuxstb: well, it depends who the list is aimed at... for developers then yes getting a bootloader working is useful information, but regular users just want to know when its good enough to star being usable
00:19:22	kugel	a bootloader doesn't necessarily mean anything
00:19:39	JdGordon\|	having nothing but a bootloader is unusable
00:19:58	kugel	the fuze had a bootloader before it could read a single button. and then there's lyre which has also code in svn
00:20:03	linuxstb	And what is that section called?
00:20:19	linuxstb	It's not called "nearly unstable".
00:21:04	JdGordon\|	sure, but you dont really want to put nano2g in the same group as somerthing which just about has music playing do you?
00:21:05	kugel	well, I understood that the names are only (partly) placeholders anyway
00:21:21	linuxstb	JdGordon\|: Yes, I would.
00:21:22	Zagor	JdGordon\|: I do
00:21:27	kugel	on the list it was agreed that we can think about the names later, since if we do it now we won't ever get it done
00:22:10	JdGordon\|	I tihnk thats a bad idea, and is bound to have more annoying people come in asking to test and use these ports which are barely started
00:22:23	linuxstb	Has it so far?
00:22:37		Quit DarkDefender (Remote closed the connection)
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00:22:58	JdGordon\|	it hasnt been up long enough to know has it?
00:23:03	Zagor	JdGordon\|: I want a list of targets where significant work has been done, but which are still unfit even for testing by users. "unusable" fits those needs fine IMO
00:23:22	*	linuxstb agrees with Zagor
00:23:32	JdGordon\|	I think adding targets which are unfit for users on the front page is a bad idea
00:23:55	JdGordon\|	I also see no reason to give those manufacturers and more free advertising when its so early still
00:24:10	JdGordon\|	2 very seperate issues though
00:24:27	kugel	we can have that list everywhere in the wiki, but on the front page which random people look at it will just create useless noise
00:24:52	linuxstb	The website isn't just for users. It's to attract new developers.
00:25:08	Zagor	our front page is a vertiable grand central station of noise...
00:25:10	linuxstb	If a user comes here wanting to use an "unusable" port, then the answer is obvious.
00:25:14	kugel	anyway, I made the string so that it happens what's stated on the wiki, the wiki was wrong apparently (/me's quickly giving the blame to JdGordon :P )
00:25:23	JdGordon\|	then name the groups "stable" "ready for brave testers" "developers only" or something
00:25:25	kugel	s/happens/matches/
00:25:58	bertrik	nano2g isn't really that far from playing music I think, given that we know how to do PCM on it
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00:26:42	Zagor	JdGordon\|: I don't see how the current names and explanations are confusing
00:27:16	Zagor	I definitely agree it's noisy. but that's a broader issue that plagues the whole page.
00:27:57	kugel	gevaerts: it would be nice if we can make the release within the next 90 min. unfortunately I don't know how to deactive usb on ipods properly (neither which are affected)
00:27:59	Zagor	rumor has it someone designed a clean page for us...
00:28:27	JdGordon\|	ok, I just really dont like the clip and beast being in the same group as some of those unusables...
00:28:50	kugel	I think the beast is only in unusable because nobody put it into unstable
00:29:00	gevaerts	kugel: I definitely have no time for the next three hours. Can't you check the 3.3 branch to see what was done there?
00:29:10	kugel	that's a good idea
00:30:51	linuxstb	JdGordon\|: Yes, the Beast really doesn't belong there, but that's simply waiting for MrSomeone to do some binary releases and check the install instructions are accurate.
00:31:17	JdGordon\|	no, thats the reason why its not in stable....
00:31:29	linuxstb	No.
00:31:44	linuxstb	Read the TargetClassifications page.
00:32:13		Quit yoruk ()
00:33:27	JdGordon\|	OK, then I go back to saying that the gap between unusable and unstable is too big
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00:34:16	JdGordon\|	ullet Well organized wiki explaining the current state of the port (see SansaAMS for example) <- that should be in unstable
00:34:27		Quit MethoS- (Remote closed the connection)
00:34:32	JdGordon\|	ullet Binary releases of any required installation tools for one or more OSes. <- shuold be stable
00:34:40	JdGordon\|	unstable should have been unusable I mean
00:35:08	JdGordon\|	compile bootloader I dont tihnk is a mjor thing for unstable, unless its a brickable target like hxxx
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00:36:04	Zagor	shouldn't a target should be included in an official release before going into "stable"?
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00:37:34	linuxstb	Zagor: That seems sensible, given the relatively short time between releases.
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00:41:14	CIA-43	New commit by bertrik (r22814): CREDITS: remove duplicate names
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00:41:46		Nick fxb is now known as fxb__ (n=felixbru@h1252615.stratoserver.net)
00:42:10	CIA-43	New commit by kugel (r22815): Use OF USB on the ipods. Using our own USB code exposes some problems, such as the current charging issues (for many people, charging basically ...
00:46:27	JdGordon\|	Zagor: I think thats a pointless milestone tbh
00:47:37	Zagor	JdGordon\|: I think it makes sense that our "tier one" status is supported by the released rbutil
00:48:49		Quit Highlander ("Quitte")
00:49:17	JdGordon\|	thats not the same as being in a official release though... is it?
00:49:25	CIA-43	New commit by kugel (r22816): The metronome keymap is still not fixed for ondio, player and c200. Disable for release yet again ...
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00:50:23	Zagor	JdGordon\|: isn't it? we don't do daily builds of rbutil.
00:50:35	kugel	speaking of...what do you think of just having 3.4 for unstable?
00:50:50	JdGordon\|	rbutil releases dont happen at the same time as rockbox releases either though
00:50:59	kugel	we could also build for them now, but don't distribute. i.e. in case some get stable in the meantime
00:51:05	JdGordon\|	I dont know how rbutil decides what the latest release is
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00:51:31	kugel	does anyone know how to run bins.pl?
00:51:39	JdGordon\|	./bins.pl
00:52:08	kugel	from ?
00:52:15	kugel	sh: ../tools/configure: not found
00:52:40	kugel	oh it looks like from the root
00:55:18	Zagor	kugel: I suggest we delay the release ~8 hours. bins.pl is probably going to take nearly an hour and I really need to go to sleep.
00:55:52	kugel	I'm currently running it
00:56:04	kugel	but yea, my machine won't do it in <1h either
00:56:21	kugel	where's does it put the zips to?
00:56:36	Zagor	I don't remember. probably in the root
00:56:44	kugel	we can still say 23rd, Hawaiian time :p
00:56:47		Quit perfectdrug ()
00:57:24	Zagor	no it creates an "output" dir
00:57:34	kugel	ah, now I see it too
00:58:10	kugel	I can let it finish, but uploading will also take a while (~100kB/s upload)
00:58:29	Zagor	or else I can run it tomorrow on the download server
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00:58:42	kugel	I'll upload the zips to my webspace and post the link to it here for the logs
00:58:55	Zagor	ok
00:59:03	Zagor	good night
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00:59:07	kugel	night
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01:20:11	gevaerts	rasher: have you seen that there are some recent themes without a full name?
01:21:56		Quit Strife89 ("Reboot.")
01:21:57	rasher	Nope
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01:22:27	gevaerts	e.g. the latest few on 320x240
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01:51:17	kugel	pixelma: I was having problems with the documentation of the view playlist feature
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01:57:40	kugel	pixelma: basically ActionWpsViewPlaylist isn't available for all targets, and there's no existing opt or so. is there a way to test whether a command done with \newcommand is actually defined?
01:58:03	kugel	I asked google and got some input but couldn't get it to work
02:00
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02:02:47		Quit JdGordon\| ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
02:06:34	kugel	Zagor: http://www.alice-dsl.net/simonemartitz/rockbox/builds-3.4.7z
02:07:05	kugel	I built the unstable ones too. We can decide whether to use them or not. manuals and voices still missing
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02:24:34	bfr	Hello, could someone tell me how to put in a patch?
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02:26:17	krazykit	bfr, you mean applying patches to the source and compiling? http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/WorkingWithPatches
02:26:51	bfr	thanks for the link, much help =)
02:28:21	bfr	I know it would take you some time, but could you walk me through step by step? im 11
02:30:12	krazykit	i'd really rather not. if you have a specific question about a certain part, i might be able to help
02:30:38	JdGordon\|	have you got linux going or cygwin if you're stuck on windows
02:31:35	bfr	ok,could you tell me how i can find this Bash Shell? thats really all I need
02:31:50	Mataamad	install cygwin
02:31:51	bfr	im on windows now
02:31:55	bfr	will do
02:32:05	Mataamad	there's a wiki post about out
02:32:36	krazykit	a wiki page linked in the first part of the WorkingWithPatches page, in fact
02:33:26	Mataamad	bfr, WHY do you want to compile rockbox anyway?
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02:34:35	bfr	I just wanted to try a few patches, thats all
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02:43:20	Rand_Althor	is there a way to compile the simulator so that it will not require Cygwin/Linux to run?
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02:44:09	gevaerts	I assume you mean on windows?
02:44:12	Rand_Althor	yeah
02:44:17	Rand_Althor	oops
02:44:25	gevaerts	You need mingw then
02:44:40	Rand_Althor	googling...
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02:45:58	_ABC	Hi all! I'd like to learn about how rockbox is interfaced to different hardware and how it replaces the bootloader. I am thinking of contributing to provide other hardware ports.
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03:03:46	_ABC	Any pointers?
03:08:47	evilnick	Have you looked at the NewPorts page in the Wiki?
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03:09:45	_ABC	evilnick: Yes, I have. Though, I would like to learn how it works.
03:12:06	evilnick	_ABC: Have you had much experience of working with embedded devices? Cracking encryption? etc.
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03:13:21	_ABC	evilnick: I have been fiddling with AVRs and doing my own PCBs, etc. I may not have enough experience, but that's why I am here to learn
03:14:19	evilnick	Cool. Your best bet would be to try again when it's daytime in Europe, as the majority of the devs are from there
03:14:55	evilnick	Although having said that, this channel is logged so keep an eye on: http://www.rockbox.org/irc/ to see if anyone's able to help
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03:15:46	_ABC	evilnick: Ok. right, Europe's time right now is like midnight I suppose
03:16:23	evilnick	And have a look round in the Wiki, especially in the New Ports sections - you might come across something that's useful that someone tried for a different machine
03:17:06	evilnick	Yeah, if you're on EST then the morning is usually a good time
03:17:28	_ABC	evilnick: Okay. Just curious, have you done hardware interfacing?
03:18:33	_ABC	evilnick: or do you maintain rockbox system?
03:18:51	evilnick	_ABC: No, I'm more of a staff member who helps on the forums/IRC, but I haven't ever really got my hands dirty!
03:19:24	evilnick	But that kind of chat is more for #rockbox-community - we try and keep the signal to noise ratio as high as we can on this channel
03:19:43	_ABC	evilnick: ah okay
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03:20:30	_ABC	evilnick: thanks!
03:21:31	evilnick	_ABC: No problem :)
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04:23:46	Rand_Althor	am I blind? Where is the source code download link on http://www.rockbox.org/daily.shtml
04:24:06		Quit Strife89 ("Bed.")
04:25:52	Rand_Althor	I got there through a link labled, "Daily builds, voices, fonts and source"
04:30:43	Rand_Althor	where is the source code download?
04:32:13	Rand_Althor	this page is down: http://build.rockbox.org/dist/build-source/rockbox-bleeding.tar.bz2
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06:33:15	NoireAiles	Hi guys
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06:34:41	JdGordon	ping pixelma, Llorean, umm... petur, anyone really i guess
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06:37:39	NoireAiles	?
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06:46:33	JdGordon	the f, F, and r prefixes are all being used in the skin tokens already :(
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07:03:06	JdGordon	damn .eu being asleep...
07:12:55	Llorean	JdGordon: Hi?
07:13:08	JdGordon	do you record from the fm screen at all?
07:13:27	Llorean	No, sorry.
07:13:29	JdGordon	I think I actually found my answer though
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07:15:05	nossracer	hello
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07:15:57	nossracer	i was wondering if someone could tell me how to completely remove all traces of rockbox from my sansa
07:15:58	pixelma	JdGordon: I recorded from the radio screen sometimes (a bit ago already)
07:16:29	JdGordon	I wanted to actually ask if you can record from the fm screen or are you forced to go into the rec screen to do it?
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07:16:54	nossracer	i have to return it cause my sd card reader broke
07:17:37	pixelma	JdGordon: you can do this directly from the radio screen on hwcodec targets. On swcodec targets you start the radio recording from the recording screen
07:18:08	JdGordon	ok... hopefully that wont get in my way
07:18:18	JdGordon	nossracer: get rbutil and do the uninstall
07:19:09	nossracer	ok will they be able to tell i had it
07:23:04	nossracer	thank you for your help JdGordon
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07:27:48	nossracer	sorry im back rbutil does not support my player sansa e200r can i just go in manually and delete from the hd
07:29:12	nossracer	you know what would be really cool is a version of rockbox for a palm pilot that would be awesome
07:39:58	nossracer	hello
07:42:31	pixelma	I think you need to run the e200rpatcher.exe again and it will have an uninstall option but I don't have such a device. Just deleting something from disk won't help you though as the bootloader will still be there
07:43:37	pixelma	or e200rpatcher in general, what you used for the initial installation
07:44:46	JdGordon	arg... kugel... commit the patch so the *id3 can be NULL!
07:45:27	nossracer	ok what if i delete and then update my original firmware wouldnt that completely wipe it out
07:45:32	nossracer	or i could format
07:47:58	nossracer	i dont care as long as it boots into original firmware when they turn it on lol
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07:57:54	JdGordon	ladies and gentlemens! I give you..... radio skin!!!!
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07:58:49	JdGordon	http://imagebin.ca/view/IrNbbP8O.html
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08:00
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08:04:39	pixelma	JdGordon: is %t<letter of your choice> for tuner something still free? I know single t and T is already taken (and one other T<something> or so)
08:05:33	JdGordon	they appear to be free.. apart from plain %t and $T
08:05:37	JdGordon	%T even
08:08:38	JdGordon	I dont think we'll need many tuner/fm/radio-only tags so using t or T could be ok
08:09:09	JdGordon	as long as we get it "right" from the start :)
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10:03:39	Zagor	so, I guess we have a release
10:03:56	Zagor	tadaa...
10:03:58	Zagor	;-)
10:05:42	Zagor	I'll wait for the download mirrors to sync before telling the world
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10:06:57	kugel	Zagor: \o/
10:07:14	kugel	Although we have made it for the 23rd: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=103
10:08:17	Zagor	:-)
10:08:56	*	kugel prefers cheating over being late :)
10:10:06	Zagor	kugel: can you give rbutil a go and see that it finds the release fine?
10:12:19	kugel	it shows 3.3
10:12:28	Zagor	where does it look?
10:12:38	Zagor	it wasn't obvious to me from reading rbutil.ini
10:12:46	kugel	I think it looks for a text file on the download server
10:13:10	CIA-43	New commit by zagor (r22817): Modify version string for 3.4
10:13:11	kugel	or something like that, I know you don't need to recompile
10:14:02	kugel	oh, 3.3 didn't touch tarball.sh. I just copied the diff from 3.3 yesterday
10:14:21	Zagor	yeah it's been the same since 3.0 :-)
10:19:26	CIA-43	New commit by zagor (r22818): Added tag for release 3.4
10:23:46	Zagor	kugel: try again now
10:23:57	Zagor	with rbutil
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10:25:24	kugel	still 3.3
10:25:35	Zagor	hmm
10:25:56	Zagor	oh, of course. it has to rsync first.
10:26:30	Zagor	I'm guessing it uses http://download.rockbox.org/daily/build-info to get the release number
10:26:31	kugel	ReleaseChecklist doesn't tell a single word about rbutil
10:26:48	Zagor	"13. make sure we have a rbutil version around that can install the new version"
10:26:48	kugel	possibly
10:27:21	kugel	oh I overlooked that; but it's out of date
10:27:39	Zagor	the checklist or rbutil?
10:27:44	kugel	or rather, not specific on what to do
10:30:50	rasher	Theme site updated to 3.4
10:31:19	CIA-43	New commit by zagor (r22819): Added release 3.4
10:32:05	Zagor	rasher: can you update the page header too? it still links to twiki.
10:32:21	Zagor	(the left-side menu)
10:33:07	rasher	will-do
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10:35:13	AlexP	Was USB enabled on the remaining devices as the release notes claim?
10:35:20	AlexP	I though it was going to be disapled
10:35:42	Zagor	it was disabled as in 3.3
10:36:40	AlexP	I thought so
10:36:50	AlexP	This line should go then I guess:
10:36:52	AlexP	USB enabled on most remaining devices (PP5020, PP5022, and PP5024 targets)
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10:37:13	Zagor	gone
10:37:20	AlexP	coolio
10:38:56	AlexP	So we are all go then :)
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10:39:01	AlexP	I'll put a note in the forum
10:39:44	*	rasher thinks this release worked out okay afterall
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10:41:16	Zagor	wait for the download mirrors to sync
10:41:23	Zagor	rbutil doesn't work before they do
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10:41:59	Zagor	http://download.rockbox.org/daily/build-info needs to say 3.4
10:42:39	AlexP	oops
10:42:57	Zagor	haha
10:43:03	*	AlexP quickly deletes it
10:44:08	AlexP	1 view only :)
10:44:15	AlexP	How long should I leave for the sync?
10:44:18	rasher	Already does on one mirror it seems
10:44:41	Zagor	rasher: yes. it's a bit tricky to check both mirrors. curl -H to the rescue!
10:45:33	Zagor	88.191.250.9 is updated, 80.87.134.17 is not yet
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10:51:35	MHael	Can someone please give me write access for the wiki?
10:51:58	Zagor	MHael: what is your wiki name?
10:51:59	AlexP	What is your wiki name?
10:52:05	MHael	MhAel
10:52:13	Zagor	then change it
10:52:14	AlexP	That doesn't sound like a real name
10:53:33	MHael	It's not my real name, but I prefer to remain anonymous.
10:53:40	AlexP	Then no wiki access for you
10:53:44	MHael	I'm trying to add myself to this list: http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/RockboxTesting
10:53:49	AlexP	Rockbox requires the use of real names
10:53:58	MHael	I've an Ipod Nano 1st Gen 4GB
10:54:03	AlexP	Zagor: http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/System/UserRegistration should probably have a big real name note
10:54:28	Zagor	AlexP: right, that wasn't copied from twiki properly
10:54:29	MHael	I doubt it makes any difference, but there's no one else on the list with one.
10:55:06	Zagor	MHael: yes there are. look at what the nicks link to. their real names.
10:55:23	MHael	I don't mean real names, I mean my player
10:55:39	Zagor	ah :-)
10:56:27	rasher	I think that list is only used, if ever, for the more exotic targets
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10:59:16	MHael	Ok, doesn't matter then. I won't worry about it. I'll just test if I see something in the forums.
10:59:27	MHael	Thanks anyway.
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11:00
11:00:23	*	n1s wonders about "more intelligent sorting algorithm"
11:00:58	rasher	please...
11:03:27	n1s	i jsut dislike these weird qualifications such as "natural" or "intelligent". I'm perfectly fine with "New alternative default sorting algorithm, which is number-aware"
11:04:05	AlexP	n1s: I agree
11:04:12	AlexP	n1s: It should just be alternative
11:04:38	AlexP	n1s: I'd change it to what you just said
11:04:45	n1s	it is default now, isn't it?
11:04:56	AlexP	not sure
11:05:10	AlexP	You could leave out default
11:05:19	n1s	AlexP: that is from the "wat's new" section, the "intelligent" quote is from the top of the page
11:05:47	AlexP	then change more intelligent to alternative at the top
11:05:51	AlexP	is what I'd do
11:06:10	*	n1s won't toutch it
11:06:17	n1s	touch*
11:06:18	*	AlexP will
11:06:50	AlexP	there :)
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11:26:32	pyro_maniac	Badger: is there a reason for http://download.rockbox.org/bootloader/samsung/yh920/ to be empty?
11:27:42	Zagor	pyro_maniac: a mistake. fixing now.
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11:30:35	pyro_maniac	ok so i can fix the wiki later
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11:40:26	rasher	Both mirrors updated now
11:56:19	AlexP	Right then
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11:56:24	Topic	"Rockbox 3.4 has been released! \| Please read before speaking: http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/IrcGuidelines \| Please direct offtopic/social chat to #rockbox-community" by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
12:00
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12:11:24	rasher	Nothing on the lists - should I send one?
12:11:48	AlexP	good plan
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12:39:03	Zagor	80.87.134.17 isn't updating
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12:52:03	funman	there is a rockbox-samsungyh820-3.4.zip in 3.4 download folder
12:52:23	Zagor	oops
12:52:46	Zagor	moved
12:52:56	funman	thanks!
13:00
13:07:10	rasher	AlexP: You might want to adjust the announcement post - the "If you prefer getting the zip files "manually", go here." link goes to the page which mostly links to rbutil
13:07:45	AlexP	rasher: OK (I copied funman's 3.3 post :) ) - where would be better?
13:08:42	AlexP	http://www.rockbox.org/download/byhand.cgi here I guess
13:08:58	rasher	I just shortened my post and only linked to http://www.rockbox.org/download/
13:10:04	Zagor	I think that is better. a single link for all users.
13:10:52	AlexP	OK
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13:21:48	dionoea	hum, encoding of the credits on http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/ReleaseNotes34 looks completely wrong
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13:28:13	Zagor	now both mirrors of download.rockbox.org are finally synced
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14:41:55	Zagor	umm, did anyone verify that rbutil finds the release? I don't have a player with me so I can't do it.
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14:52:06	Bob_C	hi everyom
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14:53:22	Bob_C	Hi cas
14:53:29	Casainho	hello bob :-)
14:53:46	Casainho	let's ask that question ;-)
14:53:55	Casainho	Bob_C: you start :-)
14:54:31	Bob_C	ok, we are creating a new port for the Lyre "Prototype ", we want to know where our code should go in the source tree
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14:55:27	Bob_C	The wiki suggests firmware/target/<cpu>/<manufacturer>/<model>/ so logically our code would go in firmware/target/arm/lyre/proto2. Is that the right place?
14:55:30	AlexP	Zagor: It does indeed
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14:56:07	Torne	Bob_C: if the code is entirely specific to your hardware, then yes
14:56:13	Torne	sounds reasonable
14:56:15	Zagor	AlexP: thanks
14:57:10	Casainho	well, I started by put the code her, instead: firmware/target/arm/s3c2440/lyre_proto2
14:57:34	Casainho	because last prototype where in: firmware/target/arm/at91sam/lyre_proto1
14:57:34	Torne	that's also reasonable if it's that SoC
14:57:40	Bob_C	The reason we ask is that the startup code (crt0) needs to be specific to our hardware
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14:58:06	Torne	it does?
14:58:12	Bob_C	But the target S3C2440 makes assumptions about the SOC and the board layout
14:58:12	Torne	you can't use teh s3c2440 crt?
14:58:31	Torne	Well, er, that is a SoC, no?
14:58:40	Torne	if it makes assumptions about particular boards, though, then you could ifdef them
14:58:41	Bob_C	Well, no, our memory timings are different for a start
14:58:44	Torne	if it's a few places
14:58:58	Torne	memory timings aren't part of the SoC, though..
14:59:15	Bob_C	They are set in crt0
14:59:16	Torne	you mean it assumes that it's hooked up to the gigabeat f/x's ram parts
14:59:18	Torne	Yeah
14:59:24	Torne	So, define/ifdef them?
14:59:38	Torne	if the rest of the code is the same but just a few parts are different, silly to duplicate it
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14:59:54	Bob_C	Torne: exactly
15:00
15:00:02	Torne	exactly what?
15:00:20	Torne	anyway, yah. if your hardware is basec on the same soc, put it in a subdirectory of that soc
15:00:23	*	Casainho Casainho is listening to try learn/understand
15:00:27	Bob_C	I mean its' specific to Gigabeat RAM etc
15:00:47	Torne	yah. so, that should be fixed, ideally, no? good opportunity for you :)
15:01:03	Bob_C	Ok, but that doesn't match the firmware/manufacturer/model layout does it?
15:01:12	Torne	there may be other players based on that soc one day, if you've already done the work to factor out which bits are gigabeat specific then that's better for everyone ;)
15:01:32	Torne	No, it doesn't
15:01:38	Torne	but loads of other players also don't follow that scheme
15:01:48	Torne	it's useful to have a scheme that's based on similarity of hardware
15:01:51	Torne	not manufacturer
15:01:58	Torne	when the same hardware is used by more than one manufacturer.
15:02:17	Bob_C	Sure, so is the Wiki not entirely correct?
15:02:25	Torne	The wiki is mking a suggestion
15:02:43	Torne	if there's a good reason to pick something else that's fine
15:03:16		Quit moos ("Rockbox rules the DAP world")
15:04:43	Bob_C	If it was me, I might have a common file for the SOC, and then a target specific include for memory timings and stuff
15:05:04	Torne	if just some values need to be different, and the same code runs, then that's a good idea, yes
15:05:08	Torne	do that :)
15:05:16	Bob_C	Otherwise the code accumulates ifdefs until it becomes untenable
15:05:25	Torne	yes. it dpeends what the differences are.
15:05:35	Torne	if it's the same sequence to initialise the SDRAM but with different parameters then just #define them
15:05:44	Torne	but not all differences are that simple
15:06:48	Bob_C	I think the Gigabeat is the only other port to that SoC currently
15:06:59	Torne	yes
15:07:28	Torne	so move any timing parameters that are specific to the gigabeat into a header in the gigabeat's directory, and make an equivalent one for your platform
15:07:46	Bob_C	So now might be a good time to rationalise it. I just fear breaking the Gigabeat build!
15:07:59	Torne	Well, test it then
15:08:09	Torne	make the changes you need, check it still compiles
15:08:14	Torne	test if it you have access to such a player
15:08:27	Torne	post a patch on fs that just changes that, if you want someone else to test it
15:08:29	Bob_C	Sure, I can build it but have no player
15:08:38	Torne	(the patch to move that stuff could go in even without your actual port, yes?)
15:08:48	Bob_C	Sure that is a good idea
15:09:20	Torne	i doubt anyone will object to patches which more cleanly seperate target specific from non target specific stuff
15:09:54	Bob_C	That's good, my boss would say the opposite :)
15:11:03	Bob_C	Ok, we will proceed on those lines then
15:11:19	Torne	OSS has the advantage of not reall having deadlines. Makes it easier to accomodate changes which clean stuff up but don't provide immediate benefits :)
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15:12:01	Bob_C	I just learnt not to ask my boss ;)
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15:13:06	Bob_C	Cas: are you happy with that?
15:16:19	Casainho	Bob_C: yes, I am. So, can you please take care of that changes?
15:18:46	Bob_C	Ok, I will. thanks Torne for your help
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15:21:41	Casainho	bye bye
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15:23:40	Bob_C	bye all, have fun
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16:11:40	gevaerts_	Zagor: the character encoding on the release notes wiki page seems to be wrong
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16:12:45	Zagor	yeah. the site is still iso 8859-1 while the CREDITS file is utf8.
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16:16:56	gevaerts_	ok, so it basically was a not-careful-enough edit, not a misconfiguration of the wiki
16:17:06	Zagor	yes
16:19:02	*	rasher quietly demands utf8
16:20:05	Zagor	I don't remember why we're still on iso. there was a reson.
16:21:34	funman	laziness to convert the webpages or something else ?
16:22:05	funman	I think a very big majority of browsers do support UTF8
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16:23:44	Zagor	funman: some technical reason. I don't remember what.
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16:24:27	Zagor	however since the vast majority of the site is english the conversion ought to be pretty quick
16:27:34	gevaerts_	fixed
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16:30:22	notlistening	Hi is there an easy way to tell what class micro SD i am using?
16:30:39	notlistening	in my Sansa e200v2
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16:32:34	tonyb486	Is there a vorbis encoding codec for rockbox?
16:33:54	Zagor	tonyb486: no
16:34:11	tonyb486	Okay, thanks.
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16:34:24	Zagor	record in a lossless format and convert on your pc
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16:48:04	notlistening	I found a way ;)
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17:58:34	JdGordon	does anyone else think adding some tokens to allow skins to have translated strings in them would be good?
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18:08:10	gevaerts	JdGordon: I think it can be a good idea, depending on how you actually get the translations
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18:08:48	JdGordon	from the lang file...
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18:09:40	JdGordon	something like %XX\|artist\| would get the current languages translated artist string (assuming there is one already)
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18:10:05	JdGordon	I noticed that the current radio screen has some strings whcih might be useful to be able to be displayed, and annoying for those that dont like english...
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18:12:06	gevaerts	ok. So we'd have a set of always-provided strings? Maybe you could add some sort of in-wps mechanism to add exotic strings. Not sure if that's really needed though
18:14:17	JdGordon	well, all strings are always there, they just are not always translated
18:14:30	JdGordon	I dont even know how useful this would be
18:14:38	JdGordon	it just seems like something we should be doing
18:14:49	gevaerts	I think we should, yes
18:16:01	gevaerts	What I meant was that if a wps uses a non-langfile string, it could provide its own translations (for a limited set of languages I guess)
18:19:00	JdGordon	well, the reason to do it would be so anyone could drop a theme on the DAP and it would just work in their language... adding extra strings would mean they'd have to go an edit something else also, so they may as well just edit the .wps
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18:21:02	gevaerts	yes and no. It would only be needed if the wps actually uses non-standard strings, and if the wps author didn't provide translation strings for those
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18:23:14	gevaerts	but again, if we provide a decent set of standard strings, I'd assume 90% of WPSes not to need that
18:23:54	JdGordon	quick look at the themes site suggests we'd need "album, artist, song, now playing, track, of, disk, next"
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18:40:15	kugel	JdGordon: most of these are already translated for the id3 viewer
18:40:21	kugel	but yea I like that idea
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18:48:28	JdGordon\|	"The database has also received a significant update on the coding level. " it did?
18:49:31	kugel	my original text was different
18:52:25	bertrik	JdGordon, some fixes were done on the database around the time of devcon euro (end of june)
18:53:38	kugel	I also thought the pitch bug was only clipv2/fuzev2, are they already out for 2 years?
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18:58:58	bertrik	regarding FS #10613 (wrong battery runtime on iPod 3G), it seems a bit weird to close it as "invalid"
19:00
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19:02:20	bertrik	In my opinion, if battery runtime is not implemented for a specific target, we should not show a bogus value. It would be better to show nothing at all (or maybe just 0)
19:03:00	gevaerts	robin0800: the forum rules are not meant as a joke
19:07:10	CIA-43	New commit by bluebrother (r22820): Add non-interactive mode to beastpatcher. ...
19:07:40	robin0800	gevaerts: remove post then
19:10:03	mcuelenaere	bertrik: doesn't that trigger automatic powerdown?
19:10:24	*	mcuelenaere had that when showing invalid values in the initial VX747 stage
19:10:32	bertrik	I don't know, does it
19:10:36	JdGordon\|_	yeah probbaly
19:10:52	JdGordon\|_	either way... I tihnk a rediculous value is just as understood as 0
19:11:07	bertrik	JdGordon, no people submit bugs about it
19:11:21	bertrik	(add a comma after 'no')
19:12:08	JdGordon\|_	hmm... then maybe we need to add a value which is "unknown" and then display that instead
19:12:11	bertrik	I thought that powerdown was triggered by low battery level, not low remaining runtime, maybe I'm wrong
19:12:14	JdGordon\|_	0 is just as good/bad an some large value
19:12:26	JdGordon\|_	arnt they linked?
19:12:37	mcuelenaere	bertrik: oh, then I misunderstood you
19:12:47	*	mcuelenaere meant low battery level
19:13:43	bertrik	The point I want to make is that displaying some random runtime value is bad if it's not implemented at all
19:13:59	gevaerts	robin0800: I did, but that doesn't change the fact that it shouldn't have been there in the first place
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19:15:14	bertrik	does anyone know how many targets actually do properly implement it?
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19:33:01	pixelma	JdGordon: %T is for some touch screen area thing. I don't see a big problem in the use of single t or T and t+something - we also have %C for album art and all those %c+something for the RTC tags
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19:35:56	pixelma	I mean the fact that they will be used for different things, you will probably have to look them up anyways and then it's good if they are grouped and if there is some logic
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20:11:45	amiconn	JdGordon: Regarding the pretranslated strings - couldn't these just be plain two-letter tags? Preferably using a common first letter
20:11:55	AlexP	ipod usb is disabled for the release as we don't do proper charging right?
20:12:40	JdGordon\|	amiconn: we could do that, but its not very nice... its not obvious what %Xn does, or %Xt.. whereas %X\|next\| is obvious
20:12:48	JdGordon\|	also the code to do it is alot more
20:12:55	amiconn	Hmm?
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20:13:02	JdGordon\|	actually, ignore that 2nd bit
20:13:05	amiconn	I think using plain tags is easier
20:13:14	amiconn	...and less code
20:13:41	amiconn	We're already handling this kind of tags, whereas for your idea you would need to parse a string argument
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20:14:08	JdGordon\|	yes but each one would need to be handled seperatly
20:14:50	amiconn	You'd also need a table storing the relation between your argument string and the lang id
20:15:14	JdGordon\|	yes, but only one extra case in the get_token_value() switch
20:16:19	amiconn	?
20:17:05	kugel	could we make it with a modifier? if %ia is artist, then %§ia could be the correspinding lang string?
20:17:11	kugel	as with conditionals
20:17:29	JdGordon\|	how about a charachter that is on standard ascii keyboards?
20:17:32	kugel	the § was an example
20:17:55	*	JdGordon\| likes that idea though
20:20:14	*	gevaerts proposes to use the ☺ character
20:20:16	amiconn	Seems to make sense.
20:20:45	amiconn	Are there should-be-localised strings which have no tag equivalent?
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20:21:24	gevaerts	probably things like "of" or "next"
20:21:50	JdGordon\|	I'm not sure we need to add "of"
20:22:02	JdGordon\|	next could be problmeatic.. and "Now Playing"
20:22:14	JdGordon\|	although that one is usually part of the background image anyway
20:22:47	gevaerts	Maybe we could have checkwps output a list of all used strings, so we can easily check what's actually used on the theme site
20:22:50	kugel	"next" would be part of each next track related tag I assume
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20:23:20	JdGordon\|	they mostly use "Next: blaa - blaa" sort of thing.. not "Next track:"
20:24:34	kugel	I guess we could have a few extra strings with %§<some special tag>\|string\|
20:24:45		Quit stoffel (Remote closed the connection)
20:24:49	kugel	but that would make it two-way'ish again, not sure if that's good
20:25:10	JdGordon\|	that doesnt sound good... it shuold be consistant
20:26:15	*	gevaerts votes for %§<numeric string id> and quickly runs away
20:26:55	kugel	numeric ids won't work
20:27:03	*	JdGordon\| isnt entirely convinced this is all needed anyway
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20:28:24	kugel	if the fm screen is going to be skin'ified, it would be a loss (for many people) since the current one is localized
20:29:34	*	kugel thinks skins should get some localization, that's one of the core rockbox features
20:29:58	JdGordon\|	%X\|string\| is the most flexible I tihnk
20:30:14	JdGordon\|	and I tihnk more readable...
20:30:52	JdGordon\|	%?Ia<%�Ia%Ia\|%Fa>
20:31:45	gevaerts	JdGordon\|: doesn't that basically imply keeping english.lng in memory though?
20:31:54	JdGordon\|	no
20:32:09	kugel	no, the lookup table would have a string->lang id connection
20:32:10	JdGordon\|	the mapping would be known keywords like the region...
20:32:27	JdGordon\|	english.lng is kept in memory though anyway
20:32:50	kugel	are you sure?
20:33:01	JdGordon\|	yes
20:33:13	JdGordon\|	well.. its built into the rockbox binary
20:33:31	gevaerts	probably not sorted in any useful way though, so lookup will be slowish
20:33:38	JdGordon\|	yes
20:33:45	JdGordon\|	but that lookup would only happen once
20:33:55	kugel	at parsing time
20:34:16	kugel	it won't make a difference unless you choose to use some 100 strings
20:34:17	domonoky	as you only can use strings already in rockbox, ids wouldnt be too bad.
20:34:24	JdGordon\|	of course keeping the smaller keyword->id mapping would be probably better anyway
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20:34:42	gevaerts	hm, there will be some unrelated impact, like wpses that don't fit in skin memory if certain languages are selected
20:34:52	JdGordon\|	nope
20:35:02	JdGordon\|	the Id would be stored.. not the string
20:35:12	gevaerts	ah ok
20:35:26	domonoky	you already have to know which string would be translatable and in rockbox, so we also could provide a list of availables lang-ids and their mapping.
20:35:39	gevaerts	in that case I don't think I see a problem except for the possibly slower loading
20:35:47	kugel	in fact, we have such a string->id mapping already, with touchregions
20:36:04	JdGordon\|	yes, but we dont want to mix them
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20:36:06	gevaerts	domonoky: string ids change. Slowly, but they do
20:36:12	kugel	domonoky: why that?
20:36:22	kkurbjun	is there a way to get viewcv to show all the commits of a particular author?
20:36:23	domonoky	gevaerts: strings in rockbox too.
20:36:44	JdGordon\|	this is where c# kicks ass... you can get the string name of an enum to easily get its real value
20:37:06	domonoky	and didnt we want to change the lang system to keep the ids always the same ? (to prevent breaking voices etc)
20:37:30	kugel	it's a pitty that this isn't even available with a compiler extension
20:38:10	amiconn	domonoky: Yes. The problem is how to do this efficiently
20:38:40	kugel	I don't think it's urgent to make it effecient. It only impacts the parsing time (if at all)
20:39:03	robin__	here http://download.rockbox.org/bootloader/sandisk-sansa/ I can enter 6.0/ over and over again and nothing but the URL changes
20:39:16	robin__	seems strange to me
20:39:16	mcuelenaere	kkurbjun: ohloh might be able to do that
20:39:44	JdGordon\|	I'd rather talk about how to present this to the user than how to actually make it work....
20:40:05	gevaerts	robin__: that's because 6.0 is the current version, so you end up in a symlink loop
20:40:15	kugel	JdGordon\|: but that's the less interesting part :)
20:40:35	JdGordon\|	its the more important part :D
20:40:36	kkurbjun	mcuelenaere: thanks, I'll take a look at that
20:40:41	kugel	I'd still prefer %§ia, but I see that it makes problems with non-tag strings
20:40:44	robin__	gevaerts: thank you for the info
20:41:09	domonoky	JdGordon\|: regardless how we present it to the user, we have still the problem, that the user somehow needs to know which words are in english.lang..
20:41:16	JdGordon\|	yes
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20:41:40	JdGordon\|	although umm...
20:41:49	kugel	I think we would only expose a few strings, documented and garuanteed to be translateable?
20:41:54	amiconn	kugel: Depending on how many of these exist, we could add them as "tags" with no value
20:41:55	JdGordon\|	we could easily add a script to dump english.lang to a txt file in the wps folder
20:42:38	JdGordon\|	I like the idea of adding the whole english.lang file... no need to add more arbitrary constraints
20:42:43	kugel	or the whole .lang. that will make a huge table where only like 20 strings are ever used
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20:43:02	amiconn	JdGordon: It should be kept simple, not made unnecessarily complex. Also, it should preferably work without any .lng file present
20:43:18		Quit stripwax_ (Client Quit)
20:43:28	amiconn	(returning the english string, which is built into the binary already)
20:43:42	gevaerts	one problem with exporting english.lang is that lots of strings have no clear meaning without context
20:44:02	JdGordon\|	amiconn: the way I would do it is have it find the ID of the given string, and then return ID2STR(id) so you could change langs without having to do anything
20:44:02	kugel	98% are be totally useless for skinning
20:44:21	gevaerts	kugel: you don't want "safe to disconnect" on a wps?
20:44:44	JdGordon\|	I want the german for that! its bound to be good :D
20:44:44	kugel	a) I didn't say that b) the wps isn't active while usb
20:44:51	pixelma	gevaerts: does that string already exist?
20:45:04	gevaerts	pixelma: uh, no actually :)
20:45:21	pixelma	in Rockbox of course ;)
20:48:42	JdGordon\|	so here is the question... do we want simple tiny code and open up the whole lang? or slightly more bloated code and limit it to the dozen that would actually be used?
20:49:12	kugel	the former probably means a huge ramsize hit too
20:49:20	JdGordon\|	no it doesnt...
20:49:23	JdGordon\|	not at all
20:49:44	kugel	how are you going to do the string->id thing?
20:49:57	JdGordon\|	english.lng is kept in ram anyway
20:50:40	JdGordon\|	its just a matter of doing lots of strcmp()'s
20:51:00	kugel	the lookup table will be big
20:51:10	JdGordon\|	there is no lookup table!
20:51:18	kugel	how then?
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20:51:42	gevaerts	well, there is one, but it already exists
20:51:54	kugel	you want to strcmp with the actual string value (i.e. without lang ids)?
20:52:04	JdGordon\|	yes
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20:52:22	JdGordon\|	5 lines of code
20:52:24	kugel	that's bad
20:52:27	JdGordon\|	yes
20:52:40	kugel	translating rockbox will break wpses regularly
20:52:57	JdGordon\|	no
20:53:05	JdGordon\|	changing english strings will
20:53:15	JdGordon\|	which doesnt happen in practice
20:53:30	kugel	I think there's a patch which changes just about every string :p
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20:54:47	kugel	the title to sentence case one. I wonder why that's still rotting
20:55:21	*	JdGordon\| gets fed up with the forum users...
20:55:41	JdGordon\|	can someone write an email to the users/dev ml's asking which how theyd like this done?
20:57:25	kugel	I think iterating through the whole lang with strcmp is potentially really slow even for happening at parsing time
21:00
21:00:02		Join nullified [0] (n=nullifie@ppp-70-242-129-64.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net)
21:02:03	_ABC	Hi all! I'd like to learn about how rockbox is interfaced to different hardware and how it replaces the bootloader. I am thinking of contributing to provide other hardware ports.
21:02:37	markun	_ABC: I don't know where to start :)
21:03:05	markun	did you download the rockbox source?
21:03:14	_ABC	markun: Not yet.
21:04:07	markun	there is a lot of info here: http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/DocsIndex#For_Developers
21:04:39	_ABC	markun: Ok. I have a supported mp3 that I can learn from, then start getting my hands on other devices.
21:05:03		Join NoireAiles [0] (i=NoireAil@JHSHAM-W.WIFI.WPI.EDU)
21:05:17	NoireAiles	Hello
21:05:50	mcuelenaere	_ABC: what hardware are you looking at?
21:06:04		Quit stripwax (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
21:06:23	markun	hi NoireAiles
21:06:27	_ABC	mcuelenaere: Currently I have a supported Sansa. I am willing to learn and contribute :)
21:06:37	nullified	Using linux on Sansa E250R. Using e200rpather, it says "[INFO] Patching application uploaded successfully!" Is this the same thing as "Firmware unlocked, proceed to step 2" ?
21:07:06	mcuelenaere	_ABC: I meant the "other" hardware :)
21:07:27		Join Omlet05 [0] (i=omlet05@81.244.124.122)
21:07:43	_ABC	mcuelenaere: In that case, no.
21:08:01	mcuelenaere	no?
21:08:18	_ABC	nope :)
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21:08:38	markun	I assume he means he has no idea what other hardware to work on yet :)
21:08:42		Quit robin0800 (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
21:09:00	_ABC	mcuelenaere: What do you mean?
21:09:09		Quit Omlet05 (Client Quit)
21:09:12	mcuelenaere	ah ok
21:09:18	_ABC	mcuelenaere: computer?
21:09:22	*	mcuelenaere thought you already had some hardware in mind
21:09:31	_ABC	oh
21:09:39	pilot000	Hi, I sell my iriver H140 over ricardo.ch i a potential buyer will have the original fw on it. but i don't have a original ihp_120.hex. could someone help me ?
21:10:48	markun	nullified: are you in the right channel? this is about running rockbox, not linux (or maybe I'm missing something)
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21:11:33	gevaerts	markun: I think you are missing something :)
21:11:48	nullified	markun I am having problems installing via linux and was not sure if this channel was for install problems.
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21:13:04	markun	pilot000: http://rasher.dk/rockbox/iriver-firmwares/
21:13:41	markun	gevaerts: yes, I missed the "via" :)
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21:14:20	nullified	I am wondering if the e200rpatcher program was updated and the "Patching application uploaded successfully!" was the new version of "Firmware unlocked, proceed to step 2"
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21:15:10	pilot000	markun, thx a lot
21:15:19	markun	you're welcome
21:15:33	_ABC	mcuelenaere: Say, that the Sansa hardware wasn't supported. I'd like to get my hands on the process of supporing it. (and yes, I have read the wiki about supporting new hardware)
21:16:03	mcuelenaere	_ABC: well, the "new" Sansa hardware (== AMS) isn't supported
21:17:31	mcuelenaere	but I did understand your request, I just thought you already had some DAP in mind for your possible porting :)
21:17:47	_ABC	okay
21:18:51	_ABC	I mean, I have experience in AVR microcontrollers as well as PCBs, etc. But not much experience in doing things like this, which I would like to learn and also contribute.
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21:20:16	amiconn	JdGordon: There is no lookup table for englishlng kept in memory when another .lng is loaded
21:20:38		Quit pilot000 ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)")
21:21:31	amiconn	The lookup table is always built dynamically, even for the built-in english strings. They're just a sequence of \0 separated strings which are scanned using strlen() at boot
21:22:08	amiconn	See language.c: lang_init()
21:22:15	_ABC	mcuelenaere: ^^^
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21:23:17	mcuelenaere	_ABC: sounds good, still these kinds of things require a lot of time and dedication
21:23:23	mcuelenaere	kind*
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21:24:27	_ABC	mcuelenaere: That's no problem :) I enjoy challenges and doing things like this
21:25:26	markun	_ABC: can you program in C?
21:26:00	mcuelenaere	_ABC: then get yourself an unsupported/new target and off you go ;)
21:26:05	_ABC	markun: I have done embedded/AVR C and also Java. So it should be no problem to pickup
21:26:46	*	funman can suggest a target for people interested in reverse engineering
21:26:47	_ABC	mcuelenaere: Problem is, I have no knowledge of USB sniffing and getting deep with hardware, etc
21:27:00	_ABC	funman: Yes?
21:27:01	mcuelenaere	_ABC: neither did I, when I first started here
21:27:20	mcuelenaere	_ABC: and with a bit of careful looking, you can avoid part of that
21:27:38	funman	_ABC: Sansa Clipv2/Clip+/Fuzev2 already have basic code, and need reverse engineering of the Original Firmware to get access to storage
21:27:50		Quit howell (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
21:27:55	_ABC	mcuelenaere: How?
21:28:09	funman	by picking up a target with a known firmware upgrade process
21:28:32	mcuelenaere	_ABC: you could look for DAP's that already have some info online or that have datasheets available or that use an already documented USB transfer method etc.
21:28:44	_ABC	funman: Hm, sounds fun, but honestly I still have alot to learn about reverse engineering and hardware access
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21:29:37	_ABC	mcuelenaere: That's why I wanted to experiement on my supported Sansa :)
21:29:50	funman	_ABC: the first step is to pick up a target, and then start at the beginning if no work has been done, or continue were the other people are
21:30:32	funman	have you read http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/NewPort ?
21:30:37	_ABC	Yes.
21:31:04	funman	I would think that on a supported target there is not much work to do
21:31:14	funman	(on a hardware side)
21:31:39	_ABC	funman: Well I mean from scratch, as if it was not supported.
21:32:01	funman	I would be too tempted to look at the existing source code ;)
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21:32:28	_ABC	haha
21:33:17	NoireAiles	hey guys
21:33:46	funman	I can comment on the targets I know: the newer Sansa AMS are similar to the unstable ones (Fuzev1/e200v2) but different enough to require some amount of work
21:33:51	*	domonoky thinks that at least the "unstable" target also could need hardware help. for example we still dont have recording on AMS Sansas.
21:33:58	NoireAiles	I'm having issues on getting the font package from rockbox.org
21:35:21	_ABC	Hm, when doing hardware reverse engineering, do you think jtag is essential?
21:35:23	funman	NoireAiles: from a webpage or from the rockbox utility ?
21:35:37	funman	_ABC: it can be helpful but it is not essential
21:35:50	domonoky	hm, the font package vanished from the download server :-/
21:36:02	NoireAiles	from both, unfortunately
21:36:14	_ABC	funman: ah okay. I might build one sometime.
21:36:22	NoireAiles	It's been down for a few days now, but I figured i'd just wait to see if it would be put back up
21:36:24	domonoky	_ABC: on most targets we dont have jtag, but we were still able to port rockbox to them :-)
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21:36:45	NoireAiles	Didn't want to be a douche and not give the webmasters / developers time to fix it.
21:37:31	NoireAiles	On that note, if I did want to install fonts, could I simply take the desired font and drag and drop it?
21:37:49	_ABC	domonoky: just by USB sniffing?
21:37:51		Quit linuxstb (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
21:38:27	funman	_ABC: USB sniffing can useful for finding the firmware upgrade process, but isn't necessary either
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21:39:02	_ABC	funman: then what is necessary?
21:39:20		Quit GeekShadow (Connection reset by peer)
21:39:33	funman	finding documentations for the main chipset, disassemble the original firmware to understand hardware
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21:39:57	_ABC	I see
21:40:05	funman	first step is having your code run on the target, second step is having correct code running
21:40:14		Quit kugel (Remote closed the connection)
21:40:36	_ABC	funman: How do you get the original firmware?
21:41:00	funman	usually from the vendor, if it's not already present on the device as a file
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21:42:20	_ABC	and if the vender does not provide the firmware, the only way is to use jtag?
21:42:48	funman	it's your job to find it ;)
21:43:37	domonoky1	_ABC: if the vendor doesnt provide firmware updates, it gets very difficult to find out how to run our own code. normally the firmware upgrade mechanism is the way rockbox gets into the target.. :-)
21:44:00	_ABC	ahh I see
21:44:19	funman	some targets use exploits in the original firmware to get code running (ipod nano2g, an iriver)
21:44:41	_ABC	mhm
21:44:51		Quit domonoky (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:46:34	_ABC	well, gotta get working. Thanks guys!
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22:03:13	JdGordon\|	amiconn: yes, but with a bit of trickery it shuold be easy enough to get to the english strings... admitadly I havnt looked at that for ages though
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22:34:30	***	Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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22:43:22	Bob_C	Hello, how does the lang.h file get generated?
22:45:00	Bagder	by genlang
22:45:17	Bagder	tools/genlang
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22:46:21	CIA-43	New commit by bluebrother (r22821): Make beastpatcher build with VS2005 again.
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22:49:08	linuxstb	bluebroth3r: Did you say you wanted to move mkmkboot.c to somewhere under rbutil/ ?
22:49:56		Quit robin__ ("Verlassend")
22:51:00	linuxstb	bluebroth3r: If so, I don't see a problem. Just remember to remove the reference to it from tools/configure
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22:59:21	BdN3504	can i checkout 3.4 like this? svn co svn://svn.rockbox.org/rockbox/branches/v3_4 rockbox
23:00
23:02:22	rasher	Yes
23:02:37		Join GeekShadow [0] (n=Antoine@reactos/tester/GeekShadow)
23:04:36		Join Rand_Althor [0] (n=chatzill@adsl-76-250-187-113.dsl.dytnoh.sbcglobal.net)
23:06:00	Rand_Althor	would including a 'seconds' (as in time of day) counter in a WPS make a big difference in battery life? (assuming the LCD is mostly off)
23:09:09		Quit BdN3504 ("CGI:IRC")
23:09:31	kugel	nope
23:11:17	Rand_Althor	thank you
23:11:18		Quit Rand_Althor ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]")
23:11:47		Nick fxb__ is now known as fxb (n=felixbru@h1252615.stratoserver.net)
23:13:55	bluebroth3r	linuxstb: yes, I was considering moving it to the beastpatcher folder. Plus, I was considering moving the beastpatcher folder afterwards below rbutil/
23:16:21		Quit evilnick (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
23:18:04	*	ej0rge finds it a little odd that the beast doesn't get to be listed as an 'unstable' target
23:18:38	ej0rge	is it just because of the installer issues?
23:18:51		Join Zagor [242] (n=bjst@46.35.227.87.static.tab.siw.siwnet.net)
23:19:15	*	bluebroth3r has a rather strange bug right now: beastpatcher built as debug works as expected, built as release binary doesn't. Hmm.
23:21:49	linuxstb	bluebroth3r: The problem with moving beastpatcher is that the more generic "sendfirm" also requires the same libMTP (IIRC). Although maybe just create a rbutil/MTP/ directory?
23:22:29	bluebroth3r	linuxstb: yeah, that's the solution I'd had used :)
23:22:37	*	linuxstb wonders if there will be anything left in utils/ or if rbutil will assimilate everything...
23:23:25		Quit GeekShadow (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
23:23:34	bluebroth3r	there's quite a bit left −− like the arm disassembler or tcctool
23:23:43	bluebroth3r	at least right now. Assimilating takes time :)
23:23:45	linuxstb	bluebroth3r: Does rbutil still not use the ipod memory detection?
23:24:08	kugel	bloat-o-meter too
23:24:32	bluebroth3r	no. I didn't found time to add it before 1.2.3 got quickly released :(
23:24:37	*	linuxstb doesn't mind, as long as the command-line utils are also available
23:24:53	bluebroth3r	was thinking to work on that in the near future
23:25:01	gevaerts	linuxstb: think of it this way : the more rbutil assimilates, the more code bluebroth3r and domonoky1 are responsible for
23:25:07	*	bluebroth3r also wants to keep the command line tools
23:25:26	bluebroth3r	gevaerts: you really think I feel responsible for that code? :P
23:25:26	linuxstb	gevaerts: You're very wise...
23:25:31	*	bluebroth3r hides
23:25:44	gevaerts	bluebroth3r: I said "are", not "feel" :)
23:25:58	*	bluebroth3r hides even more
23:26:10		Nick bluebroth3r is now known as bluebrother (n=dom@rockbox/developer/bluebrother)
23:26:37	*	linuxstb types svn mv apps firmware tools manual uisimulator bootloader rbutil/
23:26:53	bluebrother	OMG!
23:27:01	*	gevaerts tries to make linuxstb type ^C
23:27:31	*	bluebrother starts writing his quitting letter
23:27:56	bluebrother	why on earth does stat() fail on the release binary but not on the debug one?
23:31:37		Join safetydan [0] (n=deverton@rockbox/developer/safetydan)
23:36:47	bluebrother	linuxstb: what happens if I try to read the Ipod XML on old Ipods?
23:39:02		Quit merbanan (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:41:59		Quit ender` (" All great truths begin as blasphemies. �� George Bernard Shaw")
23:42:43	linuxstb	bluebrother: If it fails for whatever reason, RAM will be set to 0 IIRC.
23:42:58	bluebrother	ok, that's fine.
23:43:04		Quit stripwax ("http://miranda-im.org")
23:43:04	linuxstb	bluebrother: One problem will be when the Rockbox USB stack is being used - it currently doesn't implement the XML...
23:43:45	linuxstb	Although that could probably be implemented relatively easily (gevaerts ?)
23:44:08	*	linuxstb expects the code already exists for the "sansa pretending to be an ipod" game
23:44:11	gevaerts	linuxstb: see FS#whateveritwas for a quick and dirty imlementation :)
23:44:40	linuxstb	404
23:44:53	gevaerts	FS #10023
23:45:16	*	bluebrother would like to see automatic RAM detection in Rockbox :)
23:45:41	*	bertrik is going to commit FS #9824
23:46:50		Quit neoarch ("Leaving")
23:46:54	*	bluebrother wonders if it makes more sense to "overwrite" the modelname in ipodpatcher or to check in rbutil
23:46:55		Quit neoarch\| ("Leaving")
23:47:20	linuxstb	bluebrother: What does rbutil do differently? USB IDs?
23:48:39	bluebrother	linuxstb: the current autodetection simply relies on the modelname reported by ipodpatcher.
23:49:17	bluebrother	thus reporting ipodvideo64mb in ipodpatcher would make rbutil immediately work. Though that extends the BuildNames mess even more ...
23:50:34	*	linuxstb can't recall what (if anything) modelname is used for in ipodpatcher
23:51:09	linuxstb	Ah, that's the four-char code - used for the ".ipod" header.
23:51:32	linuxstb	You mean targetname?
23:52:09	bluebrother	sorry, meant targetname. Modelname isn't used by rbutil, and AFAICS targetname isn't really used in ipodpatcher
23:52:28	linuxstb	Yes, grep is telling me ipodpatcher just sets it, and nothng else.
23:52:43	linuxstb	I'm assuming you added that?
23:53:47	*	bluebrother can't remember doing that and blames domonoky1 :)
23:54:15	linuxstb	Seems I committed it - r12264 "based on part of FS #6643 from Dominik Wenger"
23:54:50	linuxstb	bluebrother: Ah, but won't that break bootloader installs, as that is the same for both videos?
23:55:12	linuxstb	(unless we just cp the bootloader to create a bootloader-ipodvideo64mb.ipod file)
23:56:01	bluebrother	anyway, if it's only used by rbutil adjusting the targetname in ipodpatcher is at least the easiest way to go. Autodetection really needs to get reworked, maybe I'll find some time tomorrow to think about that. Train trips can be good for stuff like that.
23:56:33		Quit explore ("leaving")
23:56:46	bluebrother	linuxstb: the bootloader filename is set in rbutil.ini and not derived from the targetname (anymore) so that won't break it.
23:57:18	linuxstb	OK, well I'll leave it to you. MrSomeone also needs to implement the SCSI stuff on a Mac...

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