| 00:01:15 | | Join andrewRB [0] (n=andrewth@81.170.115.71) |
| 00:01:55 | Casainho_ | domonoky: well, seems to work the touchscreenm however... |
| 00:02:12 | | Quit jgarvey ("Leaving") |
| 00:02:38 | Casainho_ | domonoky: I don't understand it... since I don't see "any buttons". I did calibrated the touch |
| 00:02:43 | | Quit Ubuntuxer ("Leaving.") |
| 00:02:43 | | Join Thundercloud [0] (i=thunderc@81.187.69.84) |
| 00:04:39 | | Join tomers [0] (n=chatzill@84.109.85.100) |
| 00:04:43 | tomers | gevaerts: ping |
| 00:04:54 | domonoky | Casainho_: by default rockbox touchscreen is in grid mode, you virtual (invisible grid of buttons on the screen). up /down etc, if you change to absolute mode, you can just touch the list elements, to select something. |
| 00:05:01 | gevaerts | tomers: pong |
| 00:05:05 | domonoky | +have a |
| 00:06:10 | Casainho_ | domonoky: I will try the absolute mode then |
| 00:09:29 | tomers | gevaerts: I'm implementing USB HID disabling setting. How do the USB stack knows not to enable the hid usb driver? Can I use global_settings inside firmware/ ? |
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| 00:11:10 | | Quit dmb ("Leaving") |
| 00:11:30 | tomers | gevaerts: or what is the right place to disable the driver according to the setting (before someone plugs USB and it enumerates)? |
| 00:11:53 | | Quit domonoky (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 00:12:48 | | Part froggyman |
| 00:13:03 | Ctcp | Ping from gevaerts!n=fg@rockbox/developer/gevaerts |
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| 00:14:32 | gevaerts | tomers: I'm not sure. Normally global_settings shouldn't be used in firmware/. There's probably another common way to handle this sort of thing, but I don't know (maybe a callback in firmware/ that gets called when the setting is loaded/set?) |
| 00:15:18 | gevaerts | tomers: did you see my patch in FS #10666? That one should have the logic for the actual disable right |
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| 00:17:26 | tomers | gevaerts: I saw it, but here's a more general solution: I've now posted FS #10704 - Make a configuration option to disable USB HID |
| 00:17:26 | | Quit Utchybann (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) |
| 00:18:00 | tomers | gevaerts: I'll continue tomorrow (going to sleep). Meanwhile post there if you have some solution to this. Maybe the solution will come in my dream :-) g'night |
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| 00:19:16 | gevaerts | tomers: I think the setting should be separate from the keypad mode. People are working on other drivers as well (MTP), and we'll need settings for each device class then anyway |
| 00:19:51 | * | gevaerts has never done settings code. Probably someone else can say what the proper way to do firmware/ settings is |
| 00:21:27 | | Quit bmbl ("Bye!") |
| 00:21:34 | gevaerts | Maybe we can rework the usb.c logic a bit so the settings code can call usb_core_enable_driver() directly? |
| 00:22:09 | gevaerts | that gets in the way of the charge-only handling a bit of course |
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| 00:23:21 | | Join WilliamC [0] (n=WilliamC@r75-110-44-59.gvllcmtc01.gnvlnc.ab.dh.suddenlink.net) |
| 00:23:31 | WilliamC | How do I create a playlist in Rockbox? |
| 00:24:16 | | Quit dfkt ("-= SysReset 2.53=- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.") |
| 00:24:48 | gevaerts | WilliamC: the manual has a chapter about that I think |
| 00:25:13 | markun | WilliamC: I usually just keep the "select" button pressed in the file browser and then add stuff |
| 00:25:37 | markun | but yes, maybe check the manual |
| 00:25:41 | TheSeven | 17...18mA without undervolting |
| 00:25:50 | TheSeven | and 16...17mA with 0.95V |
| 00:25:54 | TheSeven | that's not too good |
| 00:26:01 | gevaerts | tomers: of course if we do that sort of selectability, we need to find a way to tell the user that what he asks isn't actually possible, which involves both some more USB logic rework and possibly some settings GUI creativity |
| 00:26:10 | * | TheSeven tries 0.925V |
| 00:26:24 | markun | TheSeven: what's the normal voltage? |
| 00:26:29 | TheSeven | 1.075V |
| 00:26:35 | * | gevaerts isn't sure if we currently have settings that when set may make other settings unavailable |
| 00:26:40 | WilliamC | markun, I want to add everything |
| 00:27:18 | JdGordon| | gevaerts: tomers: the usual way to do firmware/ settings is have a firmware/ function which the settings code calls when the setting changes... that would then set a global variable in the relevant file.... i.e loook at the backlight setting |
| 00:27:40 | * | shotofadds was about to say that ;) |
| 00:27:52 | * | TheSeven needs a way to change clocks and voltages without rebooting rockbox :-) |
| 00:28:01 | | Quit tomers (Read error: 148 (No route to host)) |
| 00:28:19 | markun | TheSeven: a job for the debug menu :) |
| 00:28:27 | shotofadds | TheSeven: people have hacked the debug screen to do that kind of thing in the past |
| 00:28:30 | gevaerts | JdGordon|: thanks! I suspected that it was something like that, but I wasn't entirely sure :) |
| 00:28:41 | WilliamC | got it |
| 00:28:58 | markun | WilliamC: not too difficult, right? |
| 00:29:15 | gevaerts | TheSeven: write a plugin that lowers the voltage a bit, builds a playlist, starts playback, and when done lowers the voltage a bit more :) |
| 00:29:31 | * | TheSeven wonders why rockbox's playback is more sluggish at 75MHz than at 50MHz |
| 00:29:35 | WilliamC | markun, turns out, I don't need to create a playlist, it creates one on the fly |
| 00:29:59 | TheSeven | gevaerts: and when I wake up again I'll have a wiped FTL and know nothing about the results |
| 00:30:09 | WilliamC | Whenever a song is selected from the File Browser with Select or Right, Rockbox will automatically create a playlist containing all of the songs in that directory and start playback with the selected song. |
| 00:30:15 | WilliamC | Which is what I wanted |
| 00:30:31 | markun | WilliamC: I thought you wanted to make a playlist with all the music on your player.. |
| 00:30:48 | WilliamC | It's all in one folder |
| 00:31:00 | gevaerts | TheSeven: you use usb serial or HID to log to your PC :) |
| 00:31:19 | | Quit AndyI (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 00:31:21 | TheSeven | USB may start to fail earlier than playback |
| 00:31:40 | TheSeven | wow. still alive at 0.900V |
| 00:31:49 | gevaerts | does that matter? Surely any failure is good enough to decide to stop? |
| 00:31:58 | TheSeven | current slightly below apple's now. |
| 00:32:14 | TheSeven | gevaerts: what do i need USB for if i'm running off battery? |
| 00:32:33 | gevaerts | TheSeven: data connection? |
| 00:32:50 | TheSeven | data connection = charging |
| 00:33:14 | TheSeven | this thing easily charges at 100mA USB |
| 00:33:54 | gevaerts | ah, and you also want to log current I guess... |
| 00:34:33 | TheSeven | well, I can disable the charger for that |
| 00:34:33 | TheSeven | the bigger problem probably are current measurements affecting the current themselves |
| 00:35:01 | | Quit Rob2222 (Remote closed the connection) |
| 00:35:42 | TheSeven | heh, funny. the CPU is specified at 1.1 to 1.3V, so apple is already undervolting it :-) |
| 00:35:53 | | Quit ender` (" When I was a child... We had a quick-sand box in the backyard... I was an only child... eventually.") |
| 00:36:44 | TheSeven | running at 0.875V now |
| 00:36:59 | TheSeven | ...but current isn't decreasing by much |
| 00:37:13 | TheSeven | I guess the total consumption of the SoC is around 5mA at most now |
| 00:38:09 | TheSeven | what do I need to implement to get boosting to work? |
| 00:38:22 | gevaerts | actually... How do you read the current measurements? From the screen? |
| 00:38:23 | * | TheSeven wants to go down to 50MHz when idle |
| 00:38:29 | TheSeven | gevaerts: yes |
| 00:38:40 | gevaerts | is that readable without backlight? |
| 00:38:43 | | Quit shotofadds ("Leaving") |
| 00:38:45 | TheSeven | yep. |
| 00:38:49 | gevaerts | ah, ok. |
| 00:38:54 | * | gevaerts was getting suspicious |
| 00:39:32 | TheSeven | but I guess doing ADC readings on both battery voltage and current 5 times a second isn't really reducing current :-P |
| 00:40:00 | gevaerts | maybe not :) |
| 00:40:28 | TheSeven | the backlight is quite efficient, too, it's around 10mA |
| 00:40:56 | TheSeven | now what's needed for boosting? |
| 00:41:51 | TheSeven | and does it hurt if the tick and user timers are a little sluggish during the process? |
| 00:42:34 | | Quit arohtar (Client Quit) |
| 00:42:39 | markun | TheSeven: you have set_cpu_frequency implemented and CPUFREQ_* defined? |
| 00:42:41 | | Join ercani [0] (n=ac@78.191.245.111) |
| 00:42:48 | ercani | hi |
| 00:42:53 | | Join faemir [0] (n=faemir@78.33.109.163) |
| 00:43:43 | ercani | i saw jz4732 in rockbox.org |
| 00:44:08 | TheSeven | markun: do you know what's the difference between CPUFREQ_NORMAL and CPUFREQ_DEFAULT? |
| 00:44:11 | ercani | it is also valid for jz4725 ? |
| 00:44:20 | markun | TheSeven: no, I don't remember |
| 00:44:28 | markun | you also need to define HAVE_ADJUSTABLE_CPU_FREQ |
| 00:46:05 | TheSeven | and what should I take for CPU_FREQ? |
| 00:46:07 | markun | I wonder why I don't see the CPUFREQ_ defines in the other config- files |
| 00:46:49 | markun | I'm also just reading the source now.. |
| 00:47:20 | TheSeven | no boosting expert around? |
| 00:47:47 | TheSeven | the nasty part is that I'll need to re-sync some PLLs before switching |
| 00:48:15 | markun | ah, maybe DEFAULT is the value you get after the bootloader |
| 00:48:52 | markun | but perhaps better to wait for someone who knows more about it yes :) |
| 00:49:16 | markun | I experimented a bit with boosting on the gigabeat, but it didn't give us any runtime gain |
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| 01:00 |
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| 01:07:42 | TheSeven | ouch... rockbox at 1.8MHz looks nice |
| 01:07:51 | TheSeven | something must have failed while re-locking on the PLL |
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| 01:09:13 | ercani | anybody knows about jz4725? |
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| 01:12:47 | TheSeven | ok, boosting works just fine, first try! |
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| 01:13:34 | TheSeven | we're definitely below apple's current now, and much below our old one (30%) |
| 01:13:41 | | Quit liar (Remote closed the connection) |
| 01:16:54 | | Quit dmb (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 01:18:41 | * | TheSeven notices weird sampling rate changes during boosting... |
| 01:21:52 | | Quit ercani ("Leaving") |
| 01:23:09 | TheSeven | the only explanation i have for that is the system bus getting too slow for the dma |
| 01:29:37 | TheSeven | ough |
| 01:29:45 | TheSeven | guess what was going on there |
| 01:30:32 | TheSeven | the low voltage seems to have lead to a noticably reduces oscillator speed! |
| 01:32:11 | | Quit Thundercloud_ (Remote closed the connection) |
| 01:32:55 | | Quit JdGordon| ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org") |
| 01:35:51 | | Join MethoS- [0] (n=clemens@134.102.106.250) |
| 01:38:08 | TheSeven | a 7% frequency drop! |
| 01:39:28 | TheSeven | and 1.5% one step higher |
| 01:39:32 | TheSeven | so we can't go below 0.9V |
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| 01:39:57 | | Quit efyx_ (Remote closed the connection) |
| 01:41:36 | TheSeven | but it doesn't really do the UI sluggishness any goos |
| 01:41:38 | JdGordon1 | double checking.... the info in the rec statusbar is all settings display right? |
| 01:41:39 | TheSeven | good* |
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| 01:44:26 | | Part toffe82 |
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| 01:47:58 | * | TheSeven just decided to do a battery bench tonight |
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| 02:00 |
| 02:01:05 | TheSeven | my battery is only around 95%, but that's sufficient for a ball park number |
| 02:01:19 | * | TheSeven hopes he'll break the magic 24h limit |
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| 02:10:39 | | Quit JdGordon1 (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) |
| 02:19:03 | Casainho | Bob_C: http://lyre.sourceforge.net/?q=content/touch-screen-now-working-lyre-mini2440 |
| 02:19:22 | Casainho | JdGordon: Here is a video showing touchpad working: http://lyre.sourceforge.net/?q=content/touch-screen-now-working-lyre-mini2440 |
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| 02:34:51 | james12131 | Hello |
| 02:35:12 | james12131 | I'm having a problem playing Doom on my iPod Nano 2nd Generation that I just loading Rockbox onto today |
| 02:35:15 | | Join fyrestorm [0] (n=nnscript@cpe-69-203-148-25.si.res.rr.com) |
| 02:35:18 | james12131 | It says missing WAD or something |
| 02:35:33 | | Join bubsy [0] (n=bubsy@94.139.72.137) |
| 02:35:34 | evilnick | Have you put the .wad file onto the nano? |
| 02:35:57 | james12131 | I copied the .rockbox folder from the nano 2nd Gen build |
| 02:36:03 | james12131 | I see the folder on the iPod |
| 02:37:16 | evilnick | james12131: http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/PluginDoom#Install_the_Game_WADs |
| 02:37:29 | james12131 | Ok thanks |
| 02:37:32 | james12131 | Also one other thing |
| 02:37:40 | evilnick | Although as the 2nd gen nano is *such* a new port, I would not be surprised if it doesn't work |
| 02:37:46 | james12131 | oh |
| 02:37:54 | james12131 | well after I unplugged it and played around with it |
| 02:38:01 | james12131 | I plugged it back in and now I don't see any folder |
| 02:38:15 | james12131 | I know the folders are on there because I can unplug and listen to music or play games |
| 02:38:38 | evilnick | folders starting with a dot '.rockbox' are automatically hidden on some OSs - are you using a Mac or Linux? |
| 02:38:38 | james12131 | It's showing up in My Computer just with nothing in it |
| 02:38:51 | james12131 | Windows XP, I made it so I can see hidden files |
| 02:38:58 | james12131 | I don't even see the notes or calendar etc |
| 02:39:21 | james12131 | The nano shows the rockbox charging screen |
| 02:39:31 | | Quit Casainho (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) |
| 02:39:49 | evilnick | Are you sure that it's the Rockbox charging screen and not the Apple charging screen? |
| 02:40:26 | james12131 | Yes, it shows the logo of the usb plug in and says "multimedia mode" |
| 02:40:31 | * | evilnick confesses that he's not very familiar with the 2nd Gen Nano port |
| 02:40:33 | james12131 | and when I press a button it lights up |
| 02:40:46 | james12131 | It shows up in My Computer but just with nothing in it |
| 02:41:17 | evilnick | Try right-clicking it, and choosing Properties |
| 02:41:29 | james12131 | It says 0 bytes |
| 02:41:36 | james12131 | File system: Unknown |
| 02:41:58 | evilnick | Can you run chkdsk on it? |
| 02:42:12 | james12131 | How do I do that? |
| 02:42:23 | james12131 | Error-checking? |
| 02:45:26 | evilnick | Open a command prompt, then type: chkdsk E: /F (change E: to the drive letter that the nano is shown as in Windows Explorer |
| 02:45:32 | evilnick | ) |
| 02:46:21 | james12131 | "Cannot open volume for direct access" |
| 02:46:46 | evilnick | You'll probably have to be logged in as an administrator |
| 02:46:55 | james12131 | I am logged in as admin |
| 02:47:04 | james12131 | I'm the only account on my comuter |
| 02:47:10 | james12131 | computer |
| 02:47:50 | evilnick | Hmmm, try disconnecting the nano then reconnecting again |
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| 02:50:23 | james12131 | Not working, still same error |
| 02:50:49 | james12131 | I'm gonna try hooking it up to my vista computer, maybe that'll make it work |
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| 02:55:03 | james12131 | It's not even showing up in My Computer on vista |
| 02:55:12 | | Quit stingx (Client Quit) |
| 02:55:19 | james12131 | It said it installed the device driver but nothing happened after |
| 02:55:54 | james12131 | oh wait now it shows up in iTunes |
| 02:57:15 | | Join evilnick__ [0] (n=evilnick@ool-4571af51.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 02:58:51 | james12131 | Can not open volume for direct access when I tried to do chkdsk |
| 02:59:05 | james12131 | Is there a way to manually restore the iPod to factory settings without using iTunes? |
| 02:59:44 | CIA-85 | New commit by blue_dude (r23314): Code cleanup in dsp.c and misc.c, some comments |
| 03:00 |
| 03:00:11 | james12131 | Nevermind, iTunes recognizes it |
| 03:01:21 | james12131 | Oh sweet I can see the folder now |
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| 03:29:53 | CIA-85 | New commit by rmenes (r23315): Add a blind description for the Sansa Fuze and e200v2 manuals. |
| 03:39:44 | james12131 | Hey |
| 03:39:46 | james12131 | I have a quick question |
| 03:39:51 | james12131 | How can I put a video on my rockbox |
| 03:46:04 | james12131 | nevermind |
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| 04:21:09 | Crackerizer | Hello, |
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| 04:21:53 | Crackerizer | can somebody tell me where the arabjoin library is used? |
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| 06:11:03 | JdGordon | amiconn: ping when you wake up |
| 06:11:37 | | Quit Strife89 ("Bed.") |
| 06:35:51 | JdGordon | kugel: button bar is "broken".. (not that you or anyone else would care....) it covers the bottom item in the lists |
| 06:41:10 | JdGordon | DOH! you cant do alternating sublines in [arts of the lines.... (no shit sherlock :p ) |
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| 07:00 |
| 07:00:46 | * | JdGordon loves it when shit just magically works :) |
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| 07:37:11 | * | JdGordon seems to have removed too much code :p |
| 07:45:00 | JdGordon | 24 files changed, 42 insertions(+), 339 deletions(-) :D |
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| 09:21:36 | TheSeven | evilnick_: doom *does* work. it was about the first thing we tried to make work. :-D |
| 09:22:00 | | Quit faemir ("Leaving") |
| 09:24:03 | TheSeven | and concerning that guy tonight: no idea where he got an usb-enabled build from, but it's probably an old one with lots of FTL bugs, so it doesn't really surprise me if he can't see anything on it if he's using rockbox USB |
| 09:26:09 | * | ThomasAH always reads FTL as faster-than-light :) |
| 09:27:28 | ThomasAH | ... and therefore finally looked it up: Flash Transition Layer |
| 09:27:55 | TheSeven | translation* |
| 09:28:02 | TheSeven | theseven/battery_bench.txt.7z">http://l4n.clustur.com/data/theseven/battery_bench.txt.7z umm... WTF? |
| 09:28:50 | ThomasAH | TheSeven: is "wtf is 7z?" your question? |
| 09:29:09 | TheSeven | nope, the contents of that huge battery bench log i compressed using 7z |
| 09:29:32 | ThomasAH | whoa, 7MB compressed to 2K :) |
| 09:29:46 | TheSeven | my ipod was stuck in a panic for all night after that, and the battery doesn't seem to have discharged during that either, still at 4.25V |
| 09:31:20 | TheSeven | ThomasAH: that's battery bench on drugs, huh? |
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| 10:26:14 | TheSeven | bah, pcmbuf is too slow even with FIQs |
| 10:26:56 | TheSeven | so we definitely can't avoid changing something in there for the nano2g |
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| 10:56:21 | TheSeven | hm, rolo still fails more often than not... |
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| 10:57:24 | amiconn | TheSeven: There must be some pcm fifo... |
| 10:58:30 | TheSeven | amiconn: yes, for one single sample |
| 10:59:15 | TheSeven | they probably designed this for auto-reloading DMA, which we can't do because of rockbox's pcmbuf architecture, i think |
| 11:00 |
| 11:00:12 | TheSeven | the problem I'm having right now is that the interrupt lockout while boosting/unboosting is high enough to result in a pop/click |
| 11:00:15 | amiconn | Nah, a larger one |
| 11:00:22 | amiconn | What's auto-reloading dma? |
| 11:00:55 | amiconn | Other targets don't lock out interrupts during boosting, for that reason (and more) |
| 11:00:59 | TheSeven | you can tell the DMA to just go back to the beginning of the buffer once it's finished, and you have a half completion interrupt |
| 11:01:39 | TheSeven | amiconn: *if* a FIQ manages to come in during boosting, it'll starve because of the CPU clock being at 1.8MHz |
| 11:02:26 | TheSeven | so you can usually just update the buffer half the DMA has just played while it's playing the other one |
| 11:02:51 | | Quit Ubuntuxer (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 11:03:19 | amiconn | Hmm, weird thing |
| 11:03:33 | | Quit JackWinter (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 11:04:02 | amiconn | Why would it starve? Ok, that clock *is* low, although on the coldfire targets the base clock is ~11MHz |
| 11:04:30 | TheSeven | amiconn: on the other S5L8700 targets it's even worse (32kHz) |
| 11:04:32 | amiconn | Unboosted clock in rockbox is 45MHz (4* base), boosted is 124MHz (11* base) |
| 11:05:17 | amiconn | During clock change, the cpu runs from the base clock. PLL relock can take up to 10ms (yes *milli*seconds), typically 2ms |
| 11:05:26 | TheSeven | amiconn: S5L8700: base 32kHz, unboosted 48MHz, boosted 192MHz, S5L8701: base 1.8MHz, unboosted 48MHz, boosted 192MHz |
| 11:05:58 | TheSeven | amiconn: yes, and we have an FIQ latency requirement of ~20µS right now |
| 11:06:27 | amiconn | Audio is played using DMA on coldfire, and the completion interrupt just sets up the new dma |
| 11:06:52 | amiconn | There's an 8-sample fifo in the i2s controller iirc |
| 11:07:08 | TheSeven | yes, which means you've got a lot more time |
| 11:07:39 | amiconn | I think it should be doable to use this dma reload and half-completion without changing the whole architecture |
| 11:07:49 | amiconn | It will mean memcpying data though |
| 11:08:11 | TheSeven | another issue is that this auto-reloading DMA doesn't seem to work at all for me right now |
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| 11:11:15 | TheSeven | "Reload enable. If “1â€, after whole completion of DMA, channel controller automatically restart the same DMA without commands." |
| 11:11:22 | TheSeven | ...but it just doesn't do it. |
| 11:15:52 | | Quit JackWinter (Remote closed the connection) |
| 11:16:33 | * | TheSeven just spotted that the apple DMA code seems to assume there are 9 DMA channels instead of 4 |
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| 11:20:44 | kugel | rasher: ping |
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| 11:32:43 | TheSeven | amiconn: Apple diagmode seems to be doing it the same way we are, they just have low-enough latencies |
| 11:32:52 | amiconn | o.O 9 DMA channels |
| 11:33:18 | TheSeven | yes, we've made lots of such baffling discoveries |
| 11:33:48 | amiconn | That's.... plenty. Almost as strange as the 5 timers in the SH7034 |
| 11:34:03 | kugel | nano2g as 5 times too apparently |
| 11:34:11 | kugel | timers* |
| 11:34:45 | amiconn | Most other SoCs only have two |
| 11:35:44 | TheSeven | nano has 4 programmable 16bit timers and a 64bit timer that counts the CPU clock / 1024 |
| 11:36:56 | kugel | so it's dependant on the cpu clock? i.e. will count different when unboosted? that doesn't make up for a good usec_timer |
| 11:37:43 | TheSeven | kugel: we'll find a hack for that |
| 11:37:59 | TheSeven | but yes, it seems to behave like this |
| 11:38:22 | TheSeven | as far as i can tell, apple is always running that thing at full speed, so it didn't hurt them |
| 11:38:49 | amiconn | The PP usec timer is actually nice. The PP's programmable timers are also based on that 1MHz clock |
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| 12:00 |
| 12:02:07 | Unhelpful | kugel: cpu-clock-cycle counters aren't really intended as timekeepers, they're of more value for performance measurement... although the 1Ki-cycle divider makes it not so hot for that, either :/ |
| 12:06:14 | | Quit TheSeven (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) |
| 12:06:35 | kugel | I wonder why it's 64bit anyway. |
| 12:07:26 | kugel | the clock isn't high enough to ever overflow 32bit, and then it's even scaled down by another 2^-10 |
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| 12:28:47 | * | TheSeven|Mobile needs to re-check that timer later |
| 12:29:18 | | Quit Casainho (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) |
| 12:29:36 | TheSeven|Mobile | btw what about trying to power down everything except the lcd in system_exception_wait? |
| 12:30:33 | TheSeven|Mobile | (including the cpu itself, so that it powers back up and resets if one presses a button) |
| 12:31:35 | kugel | erm, sure why not? :9 |
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| 12:55:35 | jakobbg | hi there. as of today, is there any light in the tunnel regarding support for ipod classic? |
| 12:56:42 | | Quit DerPapst ("Leaving.") |
| 12:59:43 | Torne | jakobbg: There's nobody in particular working on it, afaik |
| 12:59:50 | Torne | People are doing nano 2g which is a similar processor |
| 13:00 |
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| 13:07:51 | | Join distant_voice [0] (n=chatzill@g228207203.adsl.alicedsl.de) |
| 13:10:47 | distant_voice | hi, I have a question. I plan on buying a Sansa Fuze. The trader on ebay says the installed firmware is V01.02.28F. On another item the trades says the firmware is v02.01.09a. Will I be able to install Rockbox on both? |
| 13:11:39 | distant_voice | I have read the SansaFAQ. Since it says that the version 2 Fuzes all have firmware starting with 03.xx.xx both items should be version 1 Fuzes right? |
| 13:13:40 | topik | no fuze firmware starts with 03. |
| 13:13:55 | topik | firmware that starts with 01 is rev 1, and has 'unstable' rockbox support |
| 13:14:07 | topik | firmware that starts with 02 is rev 2 and is not supported |
| 13:14:20 | gevaerts | the SansaFAQ doesn't say that |
| 13:14:51 | gevaerts | it's outdated, but it's talking about c200 and e200 there, not fuze |
| 13:15:28 | topik | try this one, distant_voice : http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/SansaAMS |
| 13:16:55 | distant_voice | thanks for the help |
| 13:17:16 | distant_voice | I'll go with the V01.02.28F then if that'll work for sure. |
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| 13:18:09 | distant_voice | unstable is enough for me, it looks like the developers are still active |
| 13:18:37 | topik | it is far from actually unstable |
| 13:18:54 | topik | but there are issues disqualifying it to be called 'stable' |
| 13:19:05 | distant_voice | yeah I heard it works pretty well |
| 13:19:29 | topik | i use it intensively without meaningful issues |
| 13:19:51 | distant_voice | V01.02.28F is going to be okay then? what are the issues you encounter? |
| 13:20:41 | topik | having to reboot to the original firmware for usb use could be called an issue |
| 13:20:52 | topik | i have no stability problems or such |
| 13:21:07 | topik | that V01.02.28F one is a V1 |
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| 13:21:16 | distant_voice | so I have to use the old firmware to put files on it? what about charging it? |
| 13:21:46 | topik | charging works in rockbox, but when you put in the usb cable it will reboot to the original firmware. unless you hold the select button while doing so |
| 13:22:38 | distant_voice | I can use SDHC cards with up to 16gb with it right? |
| 13:22:55 | topik | the specs says so yes. i have only tried up to 8GB myself |
| 13:23:11 | distant_voice | that's awesome |
| 13:23:20 | distant_voice | do you scrobble your tracks too? |
| 13:23:33 | distant_voice | because that's one of the main reasons I want to put Rockbox on it |
| 13:24:11 | topik | what's a scrobble? |
| 13:24:34 | distant_voice | do you know last.fm? it's a social networking site for music |
| 13:24:44 | topik | ah, i don't do that |
| 13:24:56 | distant_voice | ok, maybe you should check it out |
| 13:25:10 | topik | i should rent some friends first then though |
| 13:25:23 | distant_voice | haha, I don't have friends on there neither |
| 13:25:31 | distant_voice | I just registered for the statistics |
| 13:25:39 | distant_voice | www.last.fm/user/distant_voice |
| 13:26:34 | topik | can't rockbox keep playback statistics itself? |
| 13:27:16 | topik | it does have a last.fm log option though, so i guess that's what you want |
| 13:27:17 | distant_voice | yes, that's why it CAN submit your listened tracks to last.fm. most other firmwares don't support it |
| 13:27:43 | distant_voice | I think ipod can do it and that's it |
| 13:28:11 | topik | the 'database' feature can collect runtime data to. but that's probably harder to export |
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| 13:32:30 | distant_voice | well, I just bought the Fuze on ebay. Thanks for your help |
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| 13:59:17 | topik | nano 2g clickwheel is a bit sensitive. just touching it without movement allready triggers is |
| 13:59:20 | topik | it |
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| 14:29:57 | jakobbg | Torne: Thanks for the info. Not in the forseeable future, that is :-). |
| 14:34:03 | Torne | jakobbg: it's *possible*, because the linux4nano guys figured out the exploit to run code on the classic. But, someone who actually has a classic needs to step up and do the work. :) |
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| 14:55:17 | jakobbg | Exactly. And that sploit-discovery isn't that new, so I shouldn't keep my breath, no? :) |
| 14:55:19 | preglow | anyone know what happens if i use a power adapter with a lower current rating than the device it's charging? :> |
| 14:55:50 | jakobbg | preglow: Device? |
| 14:59:54 | Torne | preglow: depending on the device and the charger, it may either charge slower, or the charger might get very hot, or the charger might catch fire/explode, or the charger might just pop an internal fuse and stop working :) |
| 15:00 |
| 15:00:54 | Torne | cheap "brick" style power adapters are likely to fall into the "get hot and maybe catch fire" category. Switchmode power supplies generally fall into the "charge slower" category. But I wouldn't rely on that too much :) |
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| 15:03:48 | preglow | talking h120 here |
| 15:04:06 | preglow | the original adapter has stopped working, on all i got is an adjustable one that is rated 0.5 amperes lower |
| 15:04:29 | preglow | and yeah, it's light and thin, so pretty sure it's switched mode style |
| 15:04:32 | jakobbg | just try it. if it says charging, it does, albeit slower. |
| 15:04:49 | Torne | it's very unlikely to damage the *device*. |
| 15:04:56 | jakobbg | :-) |
| 15:05:00 | preglow | i doubt the adpter will die either |
| 15:05:05 | Torne | Probably not, no. |
| 15:05:16 | preglow | i'll give it a try laters |
| 15:05:20 | jakobbg | Stand back for implosion! |
| 15:05:21 | Torne | but it may get significantly warmer than it does normally, so, er, watch out for that :) |
| 15:05:36 | preglow | watch out for heat, check |
| 15:05:57 | jakobbg | and wormholes, of course. |
| 15:06:06 | preglow | h120 is getting glitchy like hell anyway, i should give myself a kick in the rear and start to do more work on the d2 |
| 15:06:14 | preglow | battery suffers something mad |
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| 16:52:29 | rasher | kugel: hm? |
| 16:53:27 | vanden | Hi. Love rockbox; thanks bunches. Currently have a big problem. |
| 16:53:28 | vanden | Using recent build of rockbox on a Sansa e200 with ubuntu 9.04. 9.04 has broken gphoto so I cannot access my player as a MSD. |
| 16:53:32 | vanden | Used to access fine via nautilus. Still can access, but no files I add can be seen by rockbox. |
| 16:53:35 | vanden | They are all there when I browse the player with nautilus on the desktop. But, cannot be played as rockbox can't see them. |
| 16:53:39 | vanden | I've googled around, but no joy. Any suggestions? |
| 16:53:56 | kugel | rasher: I want to remove the brackets around the LANG_ID3_* strings (for all languages), how would I do it best? |
| 16:54:34 | kugel | also, can I do it without deprecating? |
| 16:55:01 | gevaerts | vanden: http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/LibGphoto2Bug |
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| 16:55:33 | rasher | kugel: I'm not sure there's a simple way. You can use langtool to change the source in all languages. Other than that, I think we're back at manual editing. Are brackets used anywhere else? If not, you could just sed them out.. |
| 16:56:55 | vanden | gevaerts: Thanks. I will look into that (just skimmed it). But, I was able to add files via nautilus until quite recently. |
| 16:56:55 | vanden | Any ideas as to why that used to work and has now stopped working? |
| 16:57:34 | gevaerts | sorry, no. hal+gphoto are mysteries to me that I avoid at all costs |
| 16:57:35 | kugel | rasher: I can live with manual editing. So can I change source without deprecating? |
| 16:58:02 | rasher | kugel: I don't think that should be a problem |
| 16:58:14 | vanden | gevaerts: OK, well thanks. Perhaps the work around for gphoto will also solve the problem I came here with :-) |
| 16:58:44 | kugel | alright. the brackets can be added at runtime. but they're nasty when used in the wps (using %Sx) |
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| 17:07:29 | Bob_C | can someone give me access to wiki? I want to update the Mini2440 page |
| 17:07:51 | Bob_C | my wikiname is BobC |
| 17:10:19 | | Join TopyMobile [0] (n=topy@78.48.155.110) |
| 17:12:13 | mc2739 | pixelma: Please look at FS #10712 when you get a chance. |
| 17:13:08 | vanden | gevaerts: Thanks again for the help. Just to let you know: I followed the page and had no joy. |
| 17:13:42 | vanden | gevaerts: I think I will just wait for the soon to be released Ubuntu karmic which I am told fixed gphoto. Thanks anyway. |
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| 17:28:10 | | Join ED_209 [0] (n=chatzill@60-242-38-227.static.tpgi.com.au) |
| 17:28:23 | ED_209 | hey, do I report bugs in here? |
| 17:29:14 | Torne | you might discuss them here if you're not sure if it's a bug |
| 17:29:15 | rasher | ED_209: You report them on flyspray (http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/FlySpray) but it doesn't hurt to discuss it here first |
| 17:29:32 | ED_209 | ok with my h300 the metronome doesn't work at all |
| 17:29:48 | ED_209 | sync button doesn't work |
| 17:30:32 | ED_209 | doesn't play |
| 17:30:37 | | Join esperegu_ [0] (n=quassel@145.116.15.244) |
| 17:30:48 | ED_209 | can't quit out of it, you have to shut the box off |
| 17:31:13 | | Quit killan ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )") |
| 17:31:22 | | Join TheSeven [0] (n=theseven@rockbox/developer/TheSeven) |
| 17:31:27 | ED_209 | I'm pretty sure that's a bug |
| 17:31:39 | | Quit TheSeven|Mobile () |
| 17:32:44 | ED_209 | the only things that "work" are the bmp up and volume controls, nothing else works, and you can't quit out of it. being a musican driven iriver this metronome is one of the handier features, plus I use it to count my heartrate |
| 17:33:25 | ED_209 | so can you submit that as a bug? |
| 17:34:22 | gevaerts | ED_209: FS #10546 |
| 17:34:26 | ED_209 | only the new version of it does that, I had a slightly older version that worked fine, but the pitch detector is a really useful function, probably better than the metronome. but if they all worked that would be awesome. |
| 17:34:45 | ED_209 | what's that |
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| 17:35:18 | ED_209 | also, when I save a game in "superdom" and quit out of it, there is no option to load the game... this is another bug |
| 17:35:37 | ED_209 | what's that FS#blah |
| 17:36:41 | | Quit Gun_Smoke (Remote closed the connection) |
| 17:37:01 | ED_209 | surely everyone with an h340 would be running the same firmware as me and having the same problems? |
| 17:37:16 | ED_209 | or does rockbox not work that way? |
| 17:38:05 | | Quit pamaury ("exit(*(int *)0 / 0);") |
| 17:38:26 | gevaerts | ED_209: that's a bug number. http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/10546 |
| 17:39:43 | ED_209 | how do I get around it? |
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| 17:40:52 | WilliamC | Do the daily builds suck up more battery? |
| 17:41:05 | evilnick_B | ED_209: You hope that someone fixes this bug, or use an earlier version that doesn't have the bug |
| 17:41:53 | ED_209 | when is the next release of rockbox for the iriver h300 expected? (or can you tell me how to find that info) |
| 17:43:35 | evilnick_B | ED_209: Approx. every 3 months, so the next one would be around christmas time |
| 17:44:20 | | Quit esperegu (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) |
| 17:45:28 | Torne | WilliamC: current builds are different than releases in many ways; in theory each one should be no less power efficient than the last but occasionally people make mistakes :) |
| 17:45:38 | ED_209 | do you know if there's a big h300 following? these things do more than anything else on the market and are selling for a FORTUNE on ebay considering they're 5 years old |
| 17:45:47 | WilliamC | Torne, thought so. |
| 17:46:03 | Torne | WilliamC: I wouldn't be worried, personally |
| 17:46:13 | Torne | If you find battery life is worse, then that's a bug |
| 17:46:14 | Torne | report it. |
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| 17:46:27 | WilliamC | Torne, I haven't. |
| 17:46:34 | WilliamC | Actually, I was wondering the other way. |
| 17:46:36 | Torne | we generally should get better over time, until targets are very mature, at which point it changes little. |
| 17:48:57 | | Quit robin0800 (Remote closed the connection) |
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| 17:59:49 | ED_209 | can you import new plugins to old versions of rockbox? |
| 18:00 |
| 18:04:20 | JdGordon | amiconn: you around? |
| 18:04:20 | evilnick_B | ED_209: My understanding is that you generally can't do that, as plugins are written for a specific build (or possibly API) - but I will be corrected if I've got that wrong. |
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| 18:09:04 | robin0800 | quassel irc says I'm banned from this rockbox channel is that true? |
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| 18:12:53 | gevaerts | robin0800: investigating |
| 18:15:27 | gevaerts | robin0800: in june you apparently had some sort of issue which caused you to open a lot of connections. Our trusty logbot didn't like that and banned you |
| 18:15:32 | Mode | "#rockbox +o gevaerts " by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) |
| 18:15:45 | Mode | "#rockbox -b *!*n=quassel@*.brig.cable.ntl.com " by gevaerts (n=fg@rockbox/developer/gevaerts) |
| 18:16:12 | Mode | "#rockbox -o gevaerts " by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) |
| 18:17:02 | gevaerts | robin0800: you should be able to connect again now |
| 18:21:12 | robin0800 | gevaerts: many thanks |
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| 18:30:53 | Torne | ED_209: loading new plugins on older versions of rockbox will sometimes work, sometimes not, depending what the versions in question are. If developers have been careful to bump the plugin API version correctly, though, then in the cases where it doesn't work, Rockbox will tell you that it can't load the plugin, rather than load it and then go horribly wrong. |
| 18:31:03 | Torne | Same applies to the other way round, also |
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| 19:23:56 | AlexP | Bob_C: You need to sign up with your real name for the wiki |
| 19:24:45 | Bob_C | Alexp: ok |
| 19:26:28 | | Quit Zarggg () |
| 19:26:48 | Bob_C | My wiki name is BobCousins |
| 19:27:50 | AlexP | Bob_C: OK, done |
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| 19:28:19 | Bob_C | many thanks. Should BobC be deleted? |
| 19:28:19 | pixelma | mc2739: damn, I have a patch for that in the pipe too, I'm just a bit unsure about the following - pictureflow uses core actions for a great part so we could use the corresponding \ActionSomething macros which would help us getting rid of a lot of \opts but there are two exceptions - one is a minor thing (H10 and scrollwheel targets) - and the M3 (no official manual yet but) which doesn't use core actions but remote actions |
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| 19:28:49 | AlexP | Bob_C: Probably, but only the Swedes can do that, so I wouldn't worry tto much |
| 19:29:29 | pixelma | mc2739: that means every main line would have to start with a \nopt{IAUDIO_M3_PAD} or that one would need a seperate table |
| 19:29:46 | pixelma | mc2739: I could add my version there for comparison though |
| 19:30:10 | | Join Zarggg [0] (n=zarggg@65.78.69.194) |
| 19:31:04 | pixelma | I'm also not a 100% sure if that \ActionSomething I used is correct in all cases, need to check that |
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| 19:42:27 | | Quit einhirn ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org") |
| 19:45:04 | CIA-85 | New commit by Domonoky (r23316): Working Bootloader for mini2440. ... |
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| 19:47:51 | domonoky | Bob_C: your newest patch is now in svn. Now awaiting the patch for the main-binary :-) |
| 19:48:53 | Bob_C | domonoky: thanks! I was just looking at the audio, looks like I need some bit banging routines |
| 19:50:50 | domonoky | bit-banging for i2c to the audio codec ? |
| 19:51:40 | * | gevaerts isn't sure what to think in the D2-hold debate... |
| 19:51:50 | Bob_C | I found the generic i2c , but this codec uses an "L3" interface |
| 19:52:40 | TheSeven | Bob_C: which codec is it? |
| 19:52:47 | | Quit skyhunter (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 19:52:52 | Bob_C | Its the UDA1341 |
| 19:53:03 | * | domonoky thinks there is a generic bitbanging i2c driver in rockbox, you just need to provide some definitions of the pins to use. |
| 19:53:47 | Bob_C | L3 looks more like SPI to me |
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| 19:54:52 | TheSeven | Bob_C: the SOC should have an I2S controller, right? |
| 19:55:16 | Bob_C | Yes, I2S is used for data. L3 is used for control |
| 19:55:34 | TheSeven | oh right |
| 19:55:43 | TheSeven | (even though they named the I2S pins a little weird |
| 19:55:43 | * | Llorean thinks Rob Purchase doesn't understand that touchscreens aren't the only physical interfaces without much or any tactile feedback. |
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| 19:57:39 | TheSeven | Bob_C: but this doesn't look like SPI to me at all |
| 19:57:46 | domonoky | Bob_C: looks like it shouldnt be too hard to make a L3-bus driver. there are various examples for this on the net. |
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| 19:59:05 | kugel | my mini2440 arrived |
| 20:00 |
| 20:00:52 | domonoky | kugel: nice :-) |
| 20:04:53 | kugel | no power adapter though :( |
| 20:05:36 | domonoky | a h120 charger works fine. :-) |
| 20:10:56 | kugel | I have no such charger |
| 20:12:31 | JdGordon| | kugel: keeping the bitmap icons in means adding another skin token to be able to display it (although we already agreed we want this)... |
| 20:12:47 | | Quit bubsy ("Party time, EXCELLENT! *wring wring wring!!* Party on, Wayne! Party on, Garth!") |
| 20:14:24 | kugel | JdGordon: I have no problem with that |
| 20:15:04 | JdGordon| | just needs someone to do it :) |
| 20:15:21 | JdGordon| | bearing in mind it wont be so simple |
| 20:15:21 | JdGordon| | bareing |
| 20:15:21 | JdGordon| | baring |
| 20:15:39 | JdGordon| | whaterer-ing |
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| 20:16:45 | Llorean | kugel: If you're going to call a mode "crippled" maybe explain how it is? What features of the software are inaccessible in that mode? |
| 20:17:18 | JdGordon| | oh no! not again... please canw e not have that argument again? |
| 20:17:39 | Llorean | JdGordon|: We're going to have this argument as long as someone's trying to convince people to remove a useful feature. |
| 20:18:26 | Llorean | Especially in favour of a far inferior feature. |
| 20:19:17 | WilliamC | DeLlorean?:P |
| 20:19:42 | Llorean | JdGordon|: And even more especially if people throw around emotionally weighted terms like "crippled" rather than trying to actually discuss what functionality it lacks. |
| 20:19:56 | Llorean | I mean, it's just Kugel being Kugel again in that sense, but it's pretty damn annoying. |
| 20:21:07 | JdGordon| | its a stupid argument because both versions can be seen as beign crippled |
| 20:21:12 | AlexP | Indeed |
| 20:21:19 | AlexP | And both should stay |
| 20:21:25 | JdGordon| | yes |
| 20:21:33 | AlexP | With absolute touch (not grid) as default |
| 20:21:49 | JdGordon| | yes, because that is what people expect when they see a touch screen |
| 20:21:50 | Llorean | Crippled how? |
| 20:21:50 | Bob_C | I feel like this is a dumb question, but how do I login and logout of the wiki? |
| 20:22:11 | WilliamC | That's a dumb question... |
| 20:22:11 | AlexP | Bob_C: You'll get asked to log in when you press edit |
| 20:22:11 | Llorean | Grid doesn't leave anything inaccessible to anyone, by what definition is it "crippled" beyond simply being "less efficient for some users"? |
| 20:22:21 | AlexP | Bob_C: Dunno about log out |
| 20:22:37 | Llorean | AlexP: Then there needs to be a way to change to grid blindly while in absolute mode. |
| 20:22:38 | JdGordon| | crippled in the sense that it doesnt work how one would expect it |
| 20:22:44 | JdGordon| | unless they knew they were in that mode |
| 20:22:46 | Llorean | JdGordon|: That's not what "crippled" means. |
| 20:22:51 | | Join Thundercloud [0] (i=thunderc@persistence.flat.devzero.co.uk) |
| 20:23:06 | AlexP | Llorean: That can be done as part of the install if necessary |
| 20:23:15 | domonoky | Llorean: but the Grid mode is also very uncommon for touch. if you dont know the concept, you wont be able to use the dap. so absolute mode as default is good. |
| 20:23:43 | Llorean | domonoky: We have a manual though. |
| 20:23:46 | gevaerts | bertrik: do you remember if the meizu M3 hold switch is software only? |
| 20:23:58 | Llorean | My point is that a sighted user can learn to use grid by reading, a blind one can't use absolute by any means. |
| 20:24:02 | Bob_C | alexP: when I press edit, it gives me access denied, but it seems to think I am logged in as BobC. |
| 20:24:11 | Llorean | AlexP: It should be part of the install. My point is that until it *can* be, it needs to be in the more accessible mode at first. |
| 20:24:13 | AlexP | Bob_C: ah |
| 20:24:43 | Llorean | AlexP: But my bigger point is that the accessible mode needs to not be removed. Despite what people keep saying, it's quite easy to use next/prev and vol up/down blindly in grid mode. Very, very easy. |
| 20:24:47 | AlexP | Llorean: Then we have instructions under a blind mode heading telling people how to edit the settings file |
| 20:24:57 | Llorean | That's acceptable. |
| 20:24:57 | * | gevaerts thinks that the grid mode discussion and the hold-as-mode-key discussion should be kept separate |
| 20:25:01 | AlexP | Llorean: I completely agree that it shouldn't be removed |
| 20:25:02 | JdGordon| | No one is seriously suggesting out right removing the mode |
| 20:25:08 | * | domonoky long wanted to make a settings editor for rbutil, but i still dont have a way to get a updtodate list of all possible values :-) |
| 20:25:22 | Llorean | AlexP: The manual probably needs a "first time setup for blind users" section that's far more explicit than the basic "how to set up voice" |
| 20:25:35 | Llorean | JdGordon|: Read the mailing list. Rob Purchase and Kugel both are. |
| 20:25:35 | AlexP | Llorean: Yes, that'd probably help a lot |
| 20:26:02 | domonoky | as a first step, we could also just provide a "blind-friendly" config file for download. |
| 20:26:54 | AlexP | gevaerts makes a good point too - I don't know why blind people would be buying a touch screen device |
| 20:26:56 | | Quit panni_ (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) |
| 20:27:29 | Bagder | because it runs rockbox? ;-) |
| 20:27:36 | Llorean | AlexP: Because with Rockbox they *can* use it. |
| 20:27:46 | Bob_C | If the screen had a braille overlay, would it be more useful? |
| 20:27:53 | Llorean | It's a small, light player, flash based, uses full size SD cards, has a radio. |
| 20:28:32 | Llorean | With the grid based controls it's really barely harder to use than a Gigabeat F's touchpad. |
| 20:30:05 | JdGordon| | "I'm getting tired of hearing "I can't use it that way, so surely nobody can" mentality when someone here (me) has actually done so quite successfully." <- why is that any more annoying than hearing "I can use it that way.. so surely anybody else could too"... |
| 20:30:16 | Llorean | domonoky: There'd still need to be ones specific to each player, right? Especially if there were player or feature-specific accessibility features like the grid screen buttons. |
| 20:30:51 | Llorean | JdGordon|: That's a silly comparison. "I can use it" is proof that "nobody can" is wrong. "I can use it" is *not* proof that "anybody can" is true. |
| 20:31:38 | Llorean | I never said "anybody can" but Kugel said he highly doubts it can be used that way, and I'm just tired of him saying that simply because he can't use it that way. |
| 20:32:17 | domonoky | Llorean: not really specific to players, more like specific features. For the start it only needs the touchscreen setting. Everything else should be fine at moment :-) |
| 20:32:21 | Llorean | The fact is, removing grid mode is removing a unique accessibility feature. Arguing that it isn't one because *he* can't use it is wrong. |
| 20:32:44 | kugel | stupid "that's silly" vs "no, that's silly" discussions.. |
| 20:33:01 | domonoky | its also removing a working feature.. why should we do that, if it causes no harm ? |
| 20:33:22 | Llorean | kugel: Well, don't claim it's unlikely something can be used in a way someone's long since told you he's using it. |
| 20:33:23 | gevaerts | let's forget about grid mode and discuss what the actual issue is, i.e. do we want an optional hold-as-a-modifier? |
| 20:33:24 | pixelma | kugel: have you ever tried a touch screen device (yet)? |
| 20:33:38 | AlexP | gevaerts: NO, IMO |
| 20:33:44 | AlexP | er, No :) |
| 20:33:53 | AlexP | I didn't mesan to be quite so emphatic :) |
| 20:34:02 | gevaerts | AlexP: I'm not convinced either way yet, so why? |
| 20:34:02 | kugel | pixelma: I've had one in my hands a few times, and the sims with mouse |
| 20:34:15 | Llorean | gevaerts: I don't feel strongly against hold as a modifier. I'm slightly against it, but mostly in the sense "it's a minor feature without any real necessity, and would require yet another option in the settings" than anything else. |
| 20:34:16 | domonoky | gevaerts: maybe a configure option to specify which buttons are exempt from hold ? :-) |
| 20:34:17 | JdGordon| | gevaerts: the argument is customisability.... I wouldnt mind that patch as an option... but how can tha be accepted when choosing the rec buttons action is rejected? |
| 20:35:08 | Llorean | Also, yes, there's no good way to simply make it a modifier other than choosing to replicate explicitly OF behaviour, or come up with some sort of mapping and configuration screen for the button modes while hold is on. |
| 20:35:12 | AlexP | gevaerts: a) hold is hold, it disables buttons and b) where does it stop? Does just volume work? Or if not, then skip too? Then why not xyz |
| 20:35:50 | pixelma | maybe a mode you cold enable by holding a certain "button" or screen area while switching hold, if that is technically possible? Somehow similar to keep Rockbox running on USB connect |
| 20:35:50 | gevaerts | Llorean: "minor" is subjective. Let's not use that argument :) |
| 20:36:18 | Llorean | gevaerts: Okay, "solves a problem that can already be solved with existing functionality"? |
| 20:36:34 | gevaerts | AlexP: what if the button is called "mode" instead of "hold"? |
| 20:36:41 | pixelma | so usual switching hold would do nothing only knowledgeable people could do it |
| 20:36:58 | AlexP | gevaerts: Then it'd be unexpected that some buttons stopped working |
| 20:36:59 | Llorean | gevaerts: If the physical label of the button is "mode" that's different. |
| 20:37:09 | Llorean | The D2 uses a Lock image on the button, though |
| 20:38:02 | pixelma | kugel: sounds more like a "no" to me ;) |
| 20:38:08 | gevaerts | pixelma: that could work I think |
| 20:38:18 | kugel | pixelma: it was a yes |
| 20:38:30 | gevaerts | Why is it acceptable to use hold to exit plugins on ipod? |
| 20:39:07 | Llorean | gevaerts: A _necessary_ evil I think. The iPods are one of the more button-limited players. Weren't we at some point working on removing that? |
| 20:39:14 | pixelma | kugel: having one in your hand doesn't mean real use to me and mouse in sims is quite different than a device in your pocket |
| 20:39:20 | gevaerts | Llorean: "there's another way to do it" sounds like a great argument against the volume buttons. You can set the volume in settings! |
| 20:39:21 | pixelma | different to |
| 20:39:45 | Llorean | pixelma: To be fair, the touch screen is restrictive in the pocket (but buttons can be too depending on pockets) but the blind use is pretty usable in, say, a car where you're just using it one-handed. |
| 20:40:17 | bertrik | gevaerts, no, the meizu m3 you loaned to me has no hold switch ... so I never tried to do anything with it |
| 20:40:26 | bertrik | I guess it's just a pin that software can read |
| 20:40:28 | Llorean | gevaerts: But there are also explicitly marked physical volume buttons. |
| 20:40:31 | pixelma | ok, still different to using a mouse in the sim in the middle of your monitor |
| 20:40:33 | gevaerts | bertrik: oh indeed... We destroyed it :( |
| 20:40:46 | JdGordon| | gevaerts: the difference between the grid and the mr100 is that the grid doesnt give *any* indication of where to press or why pressing there does something.... the mr100 has some sort of lighting to help you out |
| 20:40:51 | Llorean | pixelma: Very. Sim+Mouse isn't indicative at all. ' |
| 20:41:00 | | Quit fyrestorm (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 20:41:07 | Llorean | JdGordon|: Blind users were one topic of discussion. Lighting probably doesn't help them much either. |
| 20:41:10 | JdGordon| | sim+touchscreen laptop though :) |
| 20:41:16 | Llorean | Though I'm pretty sure the mr100 is *harder* to use blind than the D2 |
| 20:41:28 | Llorean | The D2 you can feel around the edge of the screen to know orientation without risking touching a touch area. |
| 20:41:43 | JdGordon| | Llorean: I dont tihnk so.. these targets arent going to be used by blind users... its sighted that dont want to look at the screen |
| 20:41:47 | gevaerts | AlexP: the proposed action is skip. The D2 only has two non-hold buttons, so it's either skip or volume, not both |
| 20:41:56 | Llorean | JdGordon|: Okay, "easy to use without looking" then |
| 20:42:00 | Llorean | The lights only help when you're looking. |
| 20:42:19 | * | gevaerts suspects that Llorean is right about this mr100 vs d2 usability |
| 20:42:20 | AlexP | gevaerts: But if the D2 got it, then why not others? And then you don't have that easy way out :) |
| 20:42:42 | JdGordon| | there is a thread already asking for this on the fuze |
| 20:43:23 | | Quit flydutch ("/* empty */") |
| 20:43:24 | * | gevaerts doesn't think that the "support issues" argument can be used as long as the "show files" option is on the quickscreen |
| 20:43:51 | Llorean | gevaerts: I've been advocating removing that option from the standard QS since before QS was customizable. |
| 20:43:55 | kugel | gevaerts: I find the support argument silly too |
| 20:44:03 | | Join bubsy [0] (n=bubsy@94.139.72.137) |
| 20:44:05 | Torne | gevaerts: aside from all the rest, i am totally with you on that one ;) |
| 20:44:23 | kugel | as well as the whole touchscreen usability for blind people thing |
| 20:45:02 | Llorean | kugel: So do you want to disable voice on the D2 to free up more RAM? |
| 20:45:13 | | Quit phanboy4 ("Leaving") |
| 20:45:17 | * | JdGordon| would have no problem with that |
| 20:45:18 | JdGordon| | :D |
| 20:46:00 | kugel | Llorean: no, voice is useful for sighted people too |
| 20:46:05 | Llorean | I mean, why is the assumption "blind users probably won't buy it" the same as "we should make it impossible to use blind"? |
| 20:46:15 | Llorean | kugel: Using the player without looking at it is *also* useful for sighted people |
| 20:46:56 | gevaerts | AlexP: actually, I'm not at all against (optionally) switching to an entirely different button map using the hold switch... |
| 20:47:01 | Llorean | Why is "able to be used blind" so bad that it needs removed? |
| 20:47:11 | Bagder | me neither |
| 20:47:12 | * | gevaerts now hides |
| 20:47:14 | Llorean | gevaerts: A static one, rather than a configurable one, or? |
| 20:47:18 | gevaerts | Llorean: static |
| 20:47:40 | gevaerts | although maybe configurable wouldn't be too horrible in this case |
| 20:47:58 | Llorean | If it's only there when "hold enables custom keymap" is on, then configurable might not be too bad. |
| 20:47:59 | AlexP | gevaerts: I don't like it much, but I wouldn't throw my toys out of the pram |
| 20:48:05 | Llorean | Since turning off hold will always instantly restore the Rockbox keymaps |
| 20:48:07 | Torne | it's not just a different map, though, no? |
| 20:48:17 | kugel | I'm not entirely against it either, but we should go the same route on other players too if we accept it |
| 20:48:21 | Llorean | Torne: On the D2 it's a 100% remapping of all keys other than Hold, technically. |
| 20:48:31 | Torne | no, i mean it's more than just a different mapping |
| 20:48:34 | gevaerts | kugel: of course. If we're talking about just one, I don't see much point |
| 20:48:35 | Torne | it would need to do the same actions regardless of screen to really work, no? |
| 20:48:40 | Torne | which isn't how the regular buttons work |
| 20:48:48 | Llorean | Torne: Some buttons work in all screens, others don't |
| 20:48:52 | Llorean | or try to |
| 20:49:48 | Torne | is it currently possible to map a button to volume up, in a way that will work even if you're in a plugin or whatever? |
| 20:49:53 | Llorean | Not yet. |
| 20:50:04 | Llorean | Each plugin would need to explicitly keep those buttons as volume up |
| 20:50:15 | Torne | cuz *without* that it's far less useful, no? |
| 20:50:23 | Llorean | I mean, it's possible to create the illusion of such a mapping, and on some players I think we should (various Gigabeats for example) |
| 20:50:27 | Torne | kinda defeats the whole using it without looking thing if you have to know what context you are in |
| 20:50:30 | kugel | hey, it would allow me to get rid of the stupid volume in lists in favor of a quick page up/down on the clip <3 |
| 20:50:31 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 20:51:17 | JdGordon| | Torne: that probably will never happen |
| 20:51:26 | JdGordon| | that means those plugins would lose that button |
| 20:51:41 | Llorean | Torne: If it's going to be customizable, there should be an "all contexts" context that sets buttons to do something for everywhere in the core. |
| 20:51:42 | bertrik | I would like hold to stay mostly like it currently is, but won't mind an exception for some players where it's really troublesome |
| 20:51:45 | gevaerts | Torne: slightly hard to do in the current system where the plugins take over the GUI thread |
| 20:51:47 | Torne | JdGordon|: well, i was assuming you would only map the button like that in this mode with the hold switch on, i mean. |
| 20:51:49 | Llorean | Torne: But plugins probably should never be involved in this |
| 20:51:52 | Torne | gevaerts: indeed, that's what i assumed |
| 20:51:59 | Torne | JdGordon|: you wouldn't ever have that as the *normal* mapping. |
| 20:52:10 | Llorean | If a user leaves a plugin running, turns on hold, and puts it in their pocket, it's their responsibility |
| 20:52:58 | Llorean | Although, alternately, the plugin could *be* the context. As long as it's running, it controls the keymaps, so it could be an explicit mode in that sense. |
| 20:53:20 | JdGordon| | plugins are (and always will be) a special beast and shouldnt be taken into account here |
| 20:53:22 | gevaerts | so we'd have a configurable keymap, that works (a) not in plugins, (b) only if people want it (option), and (c) is toggled by hold? |
| 20:53:26 | | Join tomers [0] (n=chatzill@bzq-84-109-85-100.red.bezeqint.net) |
| 20:53:32 | Llorean | gevaerts: Basically, yes. |
| 20:53:55 | gevaerts | and (d) context issues to be discussed :) |
| 20:54:05 | Torne | Llorean: that's an interesting thought in its own right, actually.. |
| 20:54:05 | JdGordon| | this is where loadable keymaps make sense... |
| 20:54:14 | Torne | Llorean: that could almost be a super-WPS plugin |
| 20:54:32 | Llorean | Torne: It's one I've had many times. Plugins as alternatives to the WPS allowing various alternate playback behaviours that don't need to be in the core, etc. |
| 20:54:42 | JdGordon| | you could easily implement a better WPS as a plugin now if you wanted |
| 20:54:51 | | Join n1s [0] (n=n1s@rockbox/developer/n1s) |
| 20:54:58 | Torne | JdGordon|: you'd probably want the facility to open it in the same contexts the WPS gets opened |
| 20:55:02 | Torne | but that wouldn't be very big |
| 20:55:08 | Torne | similar to autorock? |
| 20:55:19 | JdGordon| | it could be done |
| 20:55:24 | Torne | anyway this may be diverting the topic somewhat |
| 20:55:27 | Llorean | Yeah |
| 20:55:36 | JdGordon| | we need TSR plugins for that to work well though |
| 20:55:46 | JdGordon| | which is something else I've had working before :) |
| 20:55:50 | Torne | JdGordon|: dont' we have that already? |
| 20:56:07 | * | Torne forgets the details of how battery bench works, though |
| 20:56:13 | JdGordon| | sorry... re-entrant TSR |
| 20:56:24 | Torne | Hm. |
| 20:56:32 | Llorean | gevaerts: We'd probably need a "keymap gallery" wiki page if we did that. I'm sure people would, at the very least, want to offer adapted keymaps for special purposes, and ones to duplicate the OF. |
| 20:56:53 | JdGordon| | batt bench is the only one which stays in the background.. but if you start it again it will kill the one runing, not rejoin it |
| 20:57:24 | JdGordon| | Llorean: thats a bad thing? |
| 20:57:29 | Llorean | gevaerts: And we'd have to decide what functions can be mapped to keys (for example, some functions like pitch are only available conditionally - to they get their own function name, or are they always conditionally mapped to whichever button got the function they're normally paired with) |
| 20:57:44 | Llorean | JdGordon|: It's not a bad thing. I'm just exploring what else needs discussed. |
| 20:57:57 | WilliamC | How do you load Last.fm logs from Rockbox again? |
| 20:58:14 | Llorean | JdGordon|: Just because I'm marginally against the idea doesn't mean I wouldn't want to see it done well and thoroughly if it does happen. |
| 20:58:17 | gevaerts | Llorean: indeed. There's a lot to be decided... |
| 20:58:53 | Llorean | gevaerts: I think the "what can be mapped, and how" will be a pretty hard one. While static alternatives will be simpler, but (to me) somewhat more pointless. |
| 20:59:13 | Llorean | Only a few specific players can benefit much from a static alternative. |
| 20:59:30 | AlexP | WilliamC: Use something like qtscrobbler |
| 21:00 |
| 21:00:09 | WilliamC | Someone had an online utility. |
| 21:00:26 | AlexP | dunno, try the wiki or google |
| 21:00:40 | kugel | JdGordon|: it will not kill the one that runs |
| 21:00:52 | WilliamC | http://scrob.paulstead.com/ |
| 21:00:55 | JdGordon| | i thought it does? |
| 21:00:55 | kugel | it will show a warning that it's allready running (same if you enter other plugins) |
| 21:01:07 | JdGordon| | oh ok |
| 21:01:29 | JdGordon| | is it a batt bench warning? or the loader? |
| 21:01:50 | gevaerts | Llorean: I guess it's somewhat similar to the customisable quickscreen list, but there are of course some additional complications like things that you can or cannot map sensibly to a wheel |
| 21:02:24 | WilliamC | Which mode should I boot into when I connect it into my laptop, default or Rockbox? |
| 21:02:38 | AlexP | What is it? |
| 21:02:51 | bertrik | WilliamC, depends on the target |
| 21:02:52 | kugel | JdGordon|: the former |
| 21:03:04 | WilliamC | bertrik, both work |
| 21:03:25 | AlexP | WilliamC: Yes, depending on the target and you haven't told us what you have |
| 21:03:34 | Torne | WilliamC: you just need to access the file, so any mode where usb works is fine |
| 21:03:39 | WilliamC | e200 |
| 21:03:41 | Torne | there's nothing special or magic about scrobbling |
| 21:03:55 | Torne | it just reads the file, and you delete the file when it's done |
| 21:03:59 | JdGordon| | at this point I want to butt in and say that completly customisable menus would be relativly simple to implement now, without these concerns... |
| 21:04:00 | Torne | rockbox doesn't know/care that you did so. |
| 21:04:42 | JdGordon| | i.e you could build the menu structre any way you wanted.... |
| 21:04:53 | JdGordon| | the hardest part would be parsing the text file specifiing the layout |
| 21:07:23 | | Quit robin0800 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) |
| 21:07:39 | kugel | JdGordon|: beside the million other complications? :) |
| 21:07:47 | JdGordon| | name one? |
| 21:07:52 | | Join dfkt_ [0] (i=dfkt@unaffiliated/dfkt) |
| 21:08:03 | JdGordon| | every menu item already has a text label |
| 21:08:08 | JdGordon| | none need to be added |
| 21:08:22 | JdGordon| | if it is in the menu *anywhere* now it can be found so can be added |
| 21:08:24 | kugel | make a patch |
| 21:08:36 | JdGordon| | its not worth the effort because it will be rejected |
| 21:11:29 | | Quit n1s (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 21:11:34 | BBBradley | Is it possible to do a keypress from software, such as doing a Menu press on the Ipod from a function call to make it behave as if the key were actually pressed? |
| 21:13:34 | * | TheSeven wonders if he should have another shot a fixing the PCM properly |
| 21:14:06 | bertrik | TheSeven, what's the current plan? |
| 21:14:40 | TheSeven | that's the problem, there is no real plan, i need to work out some hack |
| 21:15:15 | TheSeven | i can't reduce FIQ worst-case latency enough to get rid of the problems even with my pcmbuf hack |
| 21:15:37 | Llorean | BBBradley: To what end? |
| 21:16:09 | bertrik | I thought the options were basically: 1) copy data around to a continuous looping DMA buffer 2) rework the buffer handling so it better fits the samsung DMA 3) mess around to get FIQ faster than 1 sample, right? |
| 21:16:32 | TheSeven | 3 proved impossible if you're boosting |
| 21:17:10 | TheSeven | and the other options currently won't work, as I didn't manage to do a wrapping DMA transfer yet |
| 21:17:27 | TheSeven | that auto-reload bit seems to just be ignored |
| 21:18:11 | bertrik | TheSeven, oh I vaguely remember seeing the wrapping DMA work on the meizu m3, but I'm not entirely sure. Meizu M3 does _master_ IIS though |
| 21:18:36 | | Join MethoS- [0] (n=clemens@134.102.106.250) |
| 21:18:45 | bertrik | I wonder how the OF does it |
| 21:18:51 | BBBradley | Llorean: well I have an issue with exiting a screen (I wrote), it does exit to the main menu but the wheel won't scroll until I push "Menu". It's acting like it is stuck. |
| 21:19:41 | kugel | do other keys work? |
| 21:19:49 | kugel | I think that could be a known problem |
| 21:19:51 | TheSeven | bertrik: master/slave I2S shouldn't matter for that, as the DMA controller doesn't really know about it. But the Meizu does slave I2S, right? (the nano does master I2S) |
| 21:20:07 | TheSeven | the OF seems to just not be boosting and thus achieve low-enough latencies |
| 21:20:36 | TheSeven | (at least in diagmode, I haven't disassembled that 6MB "osos" blob yet) |
| 21:21:02 | | Join petur [50] (n=petur@rockbox/developer/petur) |
| 21:21:06 | bertrik | The Meizu m3 pushes PCM data to the codec |
| 21:21:34 | TheSeven | ah yes, it was the wmcodec's role that was different on the nano |
| 21:21:42 | TheSeven | so we're both doing the same on the I2S side |
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| 21:22:05 | bertrik | oh, good :) |
| 21:22:27 | BBBradley | Llorean: It's exiting the wps using audio_stop() |
| 21:23:06 | TheSeven | bertrik: the only thing i can think of right now to get rid of the problems would be to align frequency changes on DMA transfer boundaries :-) |
| 21:24:28 | bertrik | ok, maybe I don't understand the problem then, I thought the audio glitches were caused by lack of proper chaining (i.e. small gaps) in the DMA stream, not related to frequency changes |
| 21:25:13 | | Quit dfkt (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 21:25:39 | | Join dfkt [0] (i=dfkt@unaffiliated/dfkt) |
| 21:25:47 | TheSeven | the root problem is that CPU clock changes involve that the CPU is running at 1.8MHz for several milliseconds, and if a DMA refresh is needed during this time, we can't meet it's latency requirements |
| 21:25:51 | TheSeven | (at least not with the current code) |
| 21:26:48 | BBBradley | Kugel: I can't scroll the wheel until I press menu after the exit... but I did not try pressing the other keys. |
| 21:27:13 | TheSeven | and even if we manage to re-setup the DMA from within 3 instructions within an FIQ that may already be too late at that freq |
| 21:28:08 | bertrik | TheSeven, I was hoping we could change the frequency instantaneously, e.g. by just changing/enabling/disabling a clock divider somewhere (at least keep the PLL running at a fixed frequency) |
| 21:28:29 | TheSeven | bertrik: if we do that, boosting won't lower the current much |
| 21:28:29 | | Quit liar (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 21:28:42 | TheSeven | seems like the PLL is one of the major current leaks |
| 21:29:04 | bertrik | that's a real pity... |
| 21:29:23 | | Join pamaury [0] (n=pamaury@91-168-87-84.rev.libertysurf.net) |
| 21:29:59 | TheSeven | I'll try it again though, it may be possible that the last time I was measured this was before i fixed another bug that resulted in additional current at low clock speeds |
| 21:30:11 | TheSeven | btw, this CPU can be undervolted nicely |
| 21:30:16 | | Join shotofadds [0] (n=rob@rockbox/developer/shotofadds) |
| 21:31:07 | bertrik | TheSeven, but keeping the PLL running and doing the (nearly) zero-wait CPU switch would solve the problem, right? In that case, I'd consider it a solution for now. |
| 21:31:26 | TheSeven | it's specified at 1.1-1.3V, apple drives it at 1.075V, I drive it at 1.000V (at full clock) and 0.900V (at 48MHz) |
| 21:32:09 | TheSeven | It's still running fine at 0.8V, but the quartz osc starts drifting badly as soon as you go below 0.900V |
| 21:32:17 | TheSeven | bertrik: I'll have a shot at that right now |
| 21:32:18 | bertrik | I think you should keep some margin (for example use the apple setting) for now |
| 21:32:37 | bertrik | good luck! |
| 21:32:44 | | Join StealthyXIIGer [0] (n=stealthy@68.62.19.6) |
| 21:33:43 | * | shotofadds thinks the ML discussion has gone way off track. I'm talking about a single "enable track skipping on hold" setting (disabled by default to avoid any confusion), not "customizable keymaps", or visual imparied accessibility, or anything else. |
| 21:34:14 | shotofadds | I wanted a simple answer as to _why_ this won't be considered, not just "I don't like it" or "support" without any actual justification |
| 21:34:45 | | Quit dfkt_ (Nick collision from services.) |
| 21:35:42 | gevaerts | shotofadds: you may want to read some backlog here, starting maybe about an hour and a half ago |
| 21:36:09 | shotofadds | I did, but it doesn't help |
| 21:38:31 | JdGordon| | it did go off topic... but customisable keymaps *is* the argument here... what you are talking about is a specific instance of this |
| 21:39:07 | Llorean | shotofadds: Why not "enable volume change on hold" instead then? |
| 21:39:12 | Llorean | I've seen that requested on many more players. |
| 21:39:42 | JdGordon| | I actually like stripwax's idea for using hold to only disable the touchscreen or wheel |
| 21:39:49 | | Join froggyman [0] (n=sopgenor@pool-72-69-220-194.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net) |
| 21:39:55 | shotofadds | Llorean: because there is already a key combination to change volume. there isn't one to skip tracks. |
| 21:40:08 | Llorean | shotofadds: There's a key combination to adjust volume while hold is on? |
| 21:40:20 | shotofadds | no, that's not what I said |
| 21:40:27 | Llorean | If I want to skip tracks blindly on a D2 while hold is off, I can do it. |
| 21:40:34 | Llorean | If you *choose* to be in a mode where you can't, I don't see the prolbem. |
| 21:40:38 | shotofadds | good for you |
| 21:40:54 | Llorean | My point is "why should your feature for use while hold is on be the most important one?" |
| 21:41:10 | * | gevaerts will send a proposal to the ML soon |
| 21:41:15 | shotofadds | JdGordon|: yes it makes sense, but it still doesn't help skipping tracks "blind" |
| 21:41:15 | Llorean | You want to add a feature, the job is to justify it. |
| 21:41:40 | Llorean | shotofadds: Tracks can already be skipped blind. Please, don't pretend like that doesn't exist just because you refuse to use the existing method. |
| 21:41:47 | Llorean | This is adding an alternative means to do something, not enabling it in the first place. |
| 21:42:03 | gevaerts | shotofadds: what I proposed should allow the skip-track-on-hold as a specific configuration |
| 21:42:11 | shotofadds | I didn't pretend it doesn't exist, I just think the "grid" mode sucks and should die a horrible painful death |
| 21:42:27 | Llorean | shotofadds: Yes. You can think that, but that doesn't make it a universal truth. |
| 21:42:49 | Llorean | You have to accept that right now you're just saying "my method is a better way of doing something that can already be done" |
| 21:42:53 | | Quit J-23 ("ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net") |
| 21:42:54 | Llorean | But you haven't explained *why* your mode is better. |
| 21:43:03 | shotofadds | just because you are happy to do things one way, doesn't mean everyone should have to be happy with it |
| 21:43:10 | Llorean | My mode can allow blind people to use the device, allow complex control while not looking at it even for sighted users, etc, etc. |
| 21:43:12 | Llorean | What does yours offer? |
| 21:43:19 | shotofadds | "my mode"??? |
| 21:43:26 | Llorean | The one I'm in favour of? |
| 21:43:58 | | Quit xavieran (Remote closed the connection) |
| 21:44:01 | Llorean | Instead of just saying "This feature should be added because I like it" tell us what about your feature makes it significantly important or valuable. |
| 21:44:13 | Llorean | You haven't really done that beyond saying "the OF does it, and people like it" |
| 21:44:19 | shotofadds | Llorean: I already explained all this in my post to the ML and the relevant FS tasks. I'm not going to be a party to your petty arguments again |
| 21:44:27 | shotofadds | full stop |
| 21:44:37 | Llorean | shotofadds: Good job. "it's petty because I don't agree with you." |
| 21:44:48 | shotofadds | That's basically what you're saying too. |
| 21:44:50 | gevaerts | Llorean: to be honest, no feature at all in rockbox has much more justification than "someone wanted it" |
| 21:44:53 | Llorean | I love the fact that the implication is that I can't have a reasoned discussion because you're unwilling to explain your point of view. |
| 21:45:25 | Llorean | shotofadds: I didn't call your argument petty. I asked specific questions, and explained the advantages of my point of view. You instead say "I refuse to discuss this here, do it my way." |
| 21:45:26 | | Join thegeek [0] (n=nnscript@129.241.123.168) |
| 21:45:28 | Llorean | Yet I'm petty. |
| 21:45:52 | shotofadds | FFS, I've explained everything I need to. I'm outta here. |
| 21:45:54 | Llorean | gevaerts: Many features though exist because there was *no* way to do it before. "People want it and it can't be done" is different from "people want other ways to do it." We can't address all alternative control schemes. |
| 21:45:55 | | Quit shotofadds ("Leaving") |
| 21:45:58 | * | domonoky thinks "a Dev want its" is a valid argument, its all done because devs want those features :-) |
| 21:46:15 | Llorean | domonoky: To that way leads extreme, extreme bloat though. |
| 21:46:29 | | Join J-23 [0] (n=zelazko@unix.net.pl) |
| 21:46:31 | Llorean | I just wish he'd actually stop and explain it rather than saying "the current objections are meaningless, so we should do it" |
| 21:47:01 | kugel | that extreme bloat hasn't happened in the past 8 years |
| 21:47:07 | Llorean | Saying "I've done so elsewhere, go read it" in no way addresses any new or different points brought up since those older posts. |
| 21:47:12 | | Join matsl [0] (n=matsl@1-1-4-2a.mal.sth.bostream.se) |
| 21:47:19 | Llorean | kugel: Because the past 8 years have included people saying "wait, do we really need this" constantly |
| 21:48:03 | TheSeven | bertrik: still some clicking action, wondering where that's coming from |
| 21:48:14 | TheSeven | pcmbuf just being too slow at 48MHz? |
| 21:48:27 | kugel | we will have people for that in the future. "a dev wants it" means not just liking the idea, but wanting it enough to overcome some objections |
| 21:48:32 | Llorean | JdGordon|: So an option for "Hold mode:" which says "Button, Wheel, Both" as options (or Button, Screen, Both) |
| 21:48:34 | TheSeven | yes |
| 21:48:52 | Llorean | kugel: But that's always been true. You'll see plenty of things have been committed over objections. |
| 21:49:14 | kugel | that's exactly what I'm saying |
| 21:49:19 | Llorean | So why say it, it's already true? |
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| 21:50:22 | domonoky | didnt we get to a more agree-able solution before ? (special keymaps for hold (as a option) ) |
| 21:50:42 | Llorean | domonoky: Yeah, but shotofadds said he already read everything we said in here, and still wants it his way. |
| 21:50:49 | kugel | It's the reason why we don't have extreme bloat now, and it's the reason why we are unlikely have extreme bloat in the future |
| 21:50:49 | | Join xavieran [0] (n=xavieran@ppp118-209-70-87.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net) |
| 21:50:57 | Llorean | kugel: Yes. |
| 21:51:01 | Llorean | So what's your point? |
| 21:51:18 | TheSeven | bertrik: keeping the PLL fast seems to be using far less current than I thought, but it's not solving the problem |
| 21:51:23 | kugel | You were telling about extreme bloat |
| 21:51:44 | | Quit Utchybann (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) |
| 21:51:45 | TheSeven | i.e. I now have constant clicking action while unboosted, but the boosting/unboosting itself seems to be fine |
| 21:51:52 | Llorean | kugel: Yes, I said "if 'a dev wants it in' is the only reason necessary for something to go in, it will lead to extreme bloat" |
| 21:52:14 | Llorean | kugel: Nobody said "if a dev wants it, and is willing to override objections" |
| 21:52:22 | Llorean | You've assumed that was what was meant, but it's not explicit in the original statement. |
| 21:52:25 | kugel | and I'm saying that didn't happen until now, and won't happen in the future |
| 21:52:54 | Llorean | Okay, there's a difference between "a dev wants it ends discussion" and "a dev wants it, but people still voice objections" |
| 21:53:18 | Llorean | If we're still voicing objections, then saying "a dev wants it should be enough" is pointless, since you don't intend that statement to change the situation. |
| 21:53:48 | | Part froggyman |
| 21:53:50 | kugel | that's not my point, I'm just saying extreme bloat is very unlikely even if "a dev really wants it" keeps to be enough of a reason to add it |
| 21:54:05 | Llorean | "a dev really wants it" is adding a word to the statement |
| 21:54:12 | * | domonoky thinks that "a devs want it" is enough to justify a feature in general (if it isnt silly), but we still have to agree on the best way to get into rockbox so it doesnt interfere with other things. |
| 21:54:20 | | Quit ender` (" It would seem that everything is easier on a mac after all - right down to the exploits.") |
| 21:54:33 | kugel | domonoky: "if it isn't silly" −− that's what most objections are about |
| 21:54:45 | kugel | and it's very subjective too |
| 21:54:53 | JdGordon| | its entirely subjective |
| 21:54:58 | Llorean | domonoky: What about if it's not silly, but if it's something some people feel is harmful, but others don't. |
| 21:55:14 | Llorean | domonoky: Not that I'm saying this feature is harmful, but I think some people feel it is. |
| 21:55:36 | * | kugel doesn't think so |
| 21:55:37 | Llorean | Or at least, negative in some manner. |
| 21:55:42 | domonoky | Llorean: then it could be added with default off (if the harm isnt completly inerfering) |
| 21:55:42 | | Join ender` [0] (i=krneki@foo.eternallybored.org) |
| 21:55:50 | Llorean | kugel: You're in favor of the feature, so obviously you don't think it's negative. |
| 21:56:06 | | Quit Omlet05 (Client Quit) |
| 21:56:08 | kugel | I mean I don't think that some people think it's harmful |
| 21:56:17 | Llorean | domonoky: What if the *addition* of it is harmful to things, rather than the feature itself. Such as creating new or differing user expectations from the project as a whole? |
| 21:56:27 | kugel | and I'm not in favor of it, I'm actually more against it |
| 21:56:29 | * | domonoky wonders what kugel uses to know what others think :-) |
| 21:56:34 | Llorean | Remember, adding a feature is also a communication of intent to the userbase. In this case, customizable keymaps. |
| 21:56:49 | Llorean | You're allowing the "hold toggle" to suddenly become a customizable button with two modes |
| 21:56:50 | | Quit TopyMobile ("Ex-Chat") |
| 21:56:51 | kugel | domonoky: same stuff that Llorean takes ;) |
| 21:57:11 | Llorean | kugel: Other people have *said* they think it's a bad idea. |
| 21:57:18 | Llorean | So what I "take" is their actual statements on the matter, in this case. |
| 21:57:20 | kugel | you said "harmful" |
| 21:57:25 | Llorean | And then I corrected myself |
| 21:57:31 | * | domonoky think we dont have todo what the userbase wants. the get what we do.. and if its some feature only one target, so be it.. :-) |
| 21:57:35 | Llorean | Or are you going to hold me to a statement I *admitted* was wrong? |
| 21:58:00 | JdGordon| | can we track down who decided to make "fade on stop" and "repeat all" defaults and kill them? |
| 21:58:09 | JdGordon| | thats *really* what we are discussing here... |
| 21:58:16 | domonoky | if we as devs can agree on a solutions, we shouldnt care about what users might expect. |
| 21:58:17 | Llorean | JdGordon|: I thought we agreed at one point that fade on stop should be disabled these days. |
| 21:58:18 | kugel | repeat all isn't default |
| 21:58:25 | AlexP | The repeat all default is a bit odd |
| 21:58:28 | rasher | Fade on stop is a bad default if you ask me |
| 21:58:33 | TheSeven | JdGordon|: "repeat all" is default? |
| 21:58:35 | Llorean | See, we can agree sometimes. |
| 21:58:40 | * | Llorean didn't know "repeat all" was a default. |
| 21:58:46 | JdGordon| | one of the wierd playback mode is default |
| 21:58:47 | AlexP | It was for a long time |
| 21:58:49 | JdGordon| | or usd to be |
| 21:58:55 | AlexP | If it has changed, I didn't notice |
| 21:59:06 | Llorean | I don't really know most of the defaults any more. |
| 21:59:13 | AlexP | but it definately is/was for a long time |
| 21:59:14 | JdGordon| | anyway... I have said that hold patch is a bad idea, but I dont care if it goes in if its disabled by default |
| 21:59:23 | Llorean | my first step with a new player is loading *my* default, but the fade on stop was _really_ annoying, whereas repeat all wouldn't bother me too much either way |
| 22:00 |
| 22:00:05 | Llorean | JdGordon|: That's more or less how I feel on the hold patch. I think it's negative, but it's not like I'd try to get it reverted. The problem is, stating objections and then asking "please explain your reasons" is seen as being "petty" |
| 22:00:25 | kugel | I think fade on pause is one of the few features that are on by default to show off |
| 22:02:21 | kugel | Llorean: can you show me where I said that I'm on favor of this hold thing? |
| 22:02:22 | * | TheSeven think it just fades too slow on pausing, else it would be nice |
| 22:03:38 | JdGordon| | so maybe we have a use for the RSB now.... can we try getting an agreement on the question "if a patch is controversial, but has no negative effects on users who disable it, its ok to commit"? |
| 22:04:03 | AlexP | JdGordon|: I think that's a bit broad |
| 22:04:10 | JdGordon| | pruposly |
| 22:04:15 | JdGordon| | purposly also |
| 22:04:23 | AlexP | Once more for uck? :) |
| 22:04:26 | AlexP | dammit |
| 22:04:27 | kugel | Llorean: also, he's seeing your arguments as petty since you seem to ignore that he actually explains why he wants. |
| 22:04:29 | AlexP | *luck :) |
| 22:05:04 | gevaerts | JdGordon|: as a member of the RSB, I have to say that if this would indeed be discussed by the RSB, I'd refuse to have an opinion unless it was made less vague |
| 22:05:39 | Llorean | kugel: He hasn't explained why he wants it other than "the OF does it, users think it's good, and I like it" |
| 22:05:53 | kugel | That's just not enough explaination for you |
| 22:06:03 | gevaerts | Llorean: those three reasons are the only ones ever used to implement mp3 support |
| 22:06:03 | Llorean | Well, he's saying the objections are minor. |
| 22:06:04 | kugel | that's why you don't accept it |
| 22:06:08 | Llorean | But the reasons for are pretty minor too, then. |
| 22:06:25 | AlexP | I think the last of the three is the only important one |
| 22:06:28 | kugel | but rather than saying "You don't explain" you could also say "I don't agree with this arguments" |
| 22:06:32 | | Quit tomers (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) |
| 22:07:00 | Llorean | kugel: Well, he says things "When this has been brought up in IRC or on the tracker it's usually been instantly dismissed without any real reasoning other than "I don't like it". What I'd like to do is get some real discussion around the issue and come to a decision about whether we can accept this. " |
| 22:07:02 | | Quit HBK- (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
| 22:07:07 | kugel | he clearly expressed his desire and his reasons |
| 22:07:07 | Llorean | If "I don't like it" isn't a real reason, "I like it" hardly is. |
| 22:07:27 | Llorean | Real discussion means explaining fully *why* you like it, what the specific advantages it offers are, what the use-cases are for it, etc. |
| 22:07:31 | Llorean | What problems does it solve? |
| 22:07:55 | Llorean | Blind use is a problem it solves, but why is it the best solution for this problem? |
| 22:08:26 | Llorean | Does he clearly express a list of problems it solves? A list of uses cases for it? A list of advantages it has over the existing solution to this problem? If so, where may I read these? |
| 22:09:16 | kugel | it's not the first time you refuse to accept arguments to be valid reasons based on subjectives. Always asking for problems it solves is stupid IMO |
| 22:09:38 | kugel | the world wouldn't move if we always needed problems before actually doing something |
| 22:10:00 | Llorean | kugel: Ah yes. "Wanting more reasons is stupid even if you don't think the current ones are enough." |
| 22:10:52 | Llorean | If he sincerely wants discussion, he should be prepared for people to ask him to thoroughly justify his side. |
| 22:10:57 | kugel | you didn't say that he wouldn't have enough reasons. You said he doesn't have reasons at all |
| 22:11:02 | Llorean | If I ask what problems it solves, he can say "it doesn't solve any other problems" |
| 22:11:08 | Llorean | But saying "you're petty for asking" isn't a reasonable discussion |
| 22:11:15 | Llorean | kugel: No, I said his reasons are minor. |
| 22:11:30 | Llorean | And you said I was stupid for asking for more reasons. |
| 22:12:04 | kugel | that's not true |
| 22:12:33 | gevaerts | Llorean: why are your reasons to oppose this not minor? |
| 22:12:44 | Llorean | kugel: "Always asking for problems it solves is stupid IMO" |
| 22:12:49 | Llorean | gevaerts: I didn't say they weren't. |
| 22:13:09 | kugel | Llorean: that's not the same |
| 22:13:11 | Llorean | gevaerts: I've said *explicitly* I'm only minorly opposed to the feature. |
| 22:13:23 | kugel | asking for more reasons != asking for problems to solve |
| 22:13:45 | Llorean | kugel: Ah yes, my apologies. I should never offer suggestions for *types* of reasons I'd like to hear. |
| 22:13:59 | Llorean | Clearly I can't help them bring up reasons that could prove me wrong. |
| 22:14:03 | gevaerts | Llorean: ok, so why is "I like it" a minor reason? |
| 22:14:06 | Llorean | I must instead sit and wait while they refuse to discuss it at all |
| 22:14:14 | Llorean | gevaerts: It's no more minor or major than "I don't like it" |
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| 22:14:24 | Llorean | gevaerts: But it was established in the initial post that "I don't like it" is minor. |
| 22:14:57 | * | gevaerts still wants to know why mp3 support ever went in |
| 22:15:14 | kugel | I guess someone liked it |
| 22:15:44 | Llorean | kugel: My point is that you don't ask for "more thorough discussion" and then call someone petty for asking you if you have any more reasons, and offering you types of reasons they'd be most interested in. |
| 22:15:47 | kugel | oh, and the hardware rockbox ran on does only mp3 (and uncompressed) :9 |
| 22:17:10 | * | TheSeven is annoyed by the pcmbuf |
| 22:17:10 | kugel | Llorean: it appeared you wouldn't accapt any of his arguments, saying that he doesn't explain himself. That's why he finds further discussion with you petty |
| 22:17:11 | Llorean | gevaerts: I've offered my suggestions on your configurable keymap thing. I definitely thing B is the way to go over all. |
| 22:17:26 | TheSeven | is there anybody around who can roughly explain how this thing works? |
| 22:17:47 | Llorean | kugel: Then he should ask specific questions perhaps? |
| 22:18:04 | Llorean | kugel: Maybe "I feel I have explained myself. Could you be more specific about which areas I've confused you in?" |
| 22:22:25 | | Quit dfkt (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) |
| 22:24:35 | * | gevaerts isn't entirely sure how to read JdGordon|'s mail |
| 22:24:45 | | Quit Grahack ("Leaving.") |
| 22:24:49 | JdGordon| | a is for apple... b is for bee :) |
| 22:24:50 | gevaerts | "in practice I dont think that would work". What is "that"? |
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| 22:25:33 | JdGordon| | I'll reply to the thread |
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| 22:28:43 | JdGordon| | umm... |
| 22:28:58 | TheSeven | "Reduce latency by only holding the currently playing chunk in PCM.c not the next one too " on http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/AudioAPIEnhancement is what's resulting in the current trouble... |
| 22:29:09 | JdGordon| | gevaerts: oh.. "that" being the ability to switch keymap/configs on the fly |
| 22:29:19 | gevaerts | ah, ok |
| 22:31:21 | * | JdGordon| wonders how hard it would be to build a text->keymap file convertor |
| 22:32:23 | kugel | I think JdGordon|'s go too far |
| 22:32:27 | kugel | +suggestion |
| 22:32:56 | JdGordon| | I took it to the logical conclusion |
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| 22:34:02 | JdGordon| | I see little point in adding heaps of chooses, when the entire thing can be configurable for less work |
| 22:34:50 | saratoga | personally I think touch screen targets should be held to a different standard regarding the hold button, simply because they're probably going to be more limited options otherwise |
| 22:34:55 | Llorean | If the entire thing is configurable, you're still probably going to end up eventually writing a plugin to offer the heaps of choices. |
| 22:35:54 | JdGordon| | but you dont need the actual setting for each one... and you dont have 15 options for each one |
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| 22:36:25 | JdGordon| | you want playlist viewer on rec, I want id3 info, someone else wants pause.... the choices are endless so its arbitrary which ones make it in |
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| 22:36:34 | JdGordon| | or they all go in in such a way that anyone can choose |
| 22:36:38 | Llorean | JdGordon|: What I'm saying is that basically, your way the text comes first, then someone implements a UI for it. The other way, you implement the UI, and the text version is already there (as limited .cfg files) |
| 22:36:39 | | Quit Juozapas (Client Quit) |
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| 22:37:21 | saratoga | rockbox's control scheme is already ridiculously button centric, i always wondered if eventually touch targets should get a different list/menu system (perhaps using icons in a grid rather then in a list) |
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| 22:38:13 | JdGordon| | saratoga: you arnt the only one... :) |
| 22:38:30 | JdGordon| | Llorean: well yes, but your way is far more limited |
| 22:38:49 | Llorean | JdGordon|: Limited how? |
| 22:38:53 | JdGordon| | my way is more effort on the user, with less effect on users who dont use it |
| 22:39:04 | Llorean | Either way you're offering them a finite selection of options that can be configured by way of a text file, or by way of an in-Rockbox UI |
| 22:39:16 | gevaerts | saratoga: I was there when JdGordon| was going to start implementing icon mode! |
| 22:39:30 | Llorean | In your way, you just offer them the text file without a UI first, and then maybe someone codes a UI plugin later, if we're lucky. |
| 22:39:46 | saratoga | some sort of icon mode would be nice because then we could fork off the touch gui stuff into its own system that doesn't impact the button based code |
| 22:39:52 | JdGordon| | If I'm understanding you right there would be an option like "rec in wps in alternate mode does:" with a bunch of options? |
| 22:39:59 | JdGordon| | gevaerts: hehe... shuuush |
| 22:40:18 | saratoga | since i agree that configuring buttons for non-touch players is likely to be a mess |
| 22:40:20 | JdGordon| | and that was only 2 months ago.... im still in the "soon" category |
| 22:40:46 | | Quit dfkt_ (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)) |
| 22:41:03 | JdGordon| | Llorean: my way is saying to the user "here is every button on the target, and every avilable action... map them however you want" |
| 22:42:33 | Llorean | JdGordon|: And every button combo the hardware allows. And long presses. And possibly "short + long" in the cases where we still allow it (or all cases?) |
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| 22:43:01 | Llorean | My way would offer them that as well, though. My whole point is that they're both the same idea. |
| 22:43:24 | JdGordon| | yes... everything... it would be a loadable version of the keymap-<target>.c file |
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| 22:43:49 | JdGordon| | rbutil would put a nice frontend on it and it wouldnt even be that hard |
| 22:43:50 | Llorean | Yes, I'm just saying that it's still a list of buttons and combos, each with a list of possible functions. |
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| 23:00 |
| 23:00:30 | kugel | hrm, I'm thinking how to do this "you may not draw into the default vp" in the sbs properly |
| 23:01:30 | kugel | I thought just returning an error if a drawing tag happens to be parsed while the curr_vp is hidden completely is enough |
| 23:01:40 | JdGordon| | ? |
| 23:02:02 | kugel | but if it's rather used as conditional to de/activate hidden viewports it should work |
| 23:02:53 | kugel | btw, It's stilly that there's only a single way to return error for the parse_* functions, that's hardly telling the real problem |
| 23:03:34 | JdGordon| | yeah, we should have a bunch of erro codes for them |
| 23:03:44 | JdGordon| | or actually something like errorno |
| 23:04:14 | kugel | there's an enum of various error codes, but it's not used for the parse_* function |
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| 23:12:25 | JdGordon| | kugel: any ideas for a nice clean way to temporarily disable the sbs? (i.e from the wps)... and do the %we/d tags still even make sense? |
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| 23:31:12 | kugel | JdGordon: we/wd should work |
| 23:31:43 | kugel | it's a statusbar for all other code |
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| 23:32:49 | JdGordon| | ? |
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| 23:41:52 | | Nick fxb__ is now known as fxb (n=felixbru@85.214.97.64) |
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| 23:47:30 | toffe82 | perhaps I already give the link , but an interesting tool to have information on the register of the arm without needing to look at the datasheet :http://www.armkits.com/Product/regeditor.asp |
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| 23:56:09 | kugel | JdGordon|: ?! |
| 23:57:25 | | Quit Rob2222 () |
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