#rockbox 2009-11-27

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#rockbox log for 2009-11-27

00:01:08	kugel	what happened to the usb-driver-as-plugin idea?
00:01:27	gevaerts	it's still an idea
00:01:37	pamaury	This is an orthogonal problem
00:02:02	gevaerts	usb-driver-as-plugin really needs multiple plugin loading
00:02:12		Join r0b- [0] (n=TechGuy@99.54.129.120)
00:02:18		Quit HBK (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
00:02:25	r0b-	is it possible to create animated wallpapers for Rockbox?
00:03:23		Join HBK [0] (n=hbk@rrcs-97-77-51-170.sw.biz.rr.com)
00:03:25		Join distill3d [0] (n=TARDIS@195.174.97.230)
00:03:26		Quit petur ("Zzzzz")
00:03:58	kugel	maybe it would be easier to imeplement that idea like codecs, and with a separate usb-driver buffer
00:04:46	gevaerts	No. We have multiple USB drivers that we want at the same time
00:05:06	gevaerts	Also, I don't want yet another permanently allocated buffer that's only used every now and then
00:05:10		Quit GeekShadow (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:05:15	kugel	does my idea preclude that?
00:05:47	gevaerts	no, but it also doesn't solve any of the real issues as far as I can see
00:06:21	kugel	I doubt doing them in a plugin-like fashion is going to work easily
00:07:43	pamaury	I agree it's more like a codec but there are probably lots of real issues in the implementation.
00:08:02	gevaerts	are there actually real differences between codecs and plugins?
00:09:04	kugel	well, codecs are conceptually different, and then there are some other difference
00:13:59	kugel	codecs are utilized by the core, as in they have their own thread instead of overtaking the main thread
00:14:56	gevaerts	Both are blobs of code and data that have one or more public functions (plugin_start for plugins, I don't know about the codecs), and that get a table of function pointers they can call
00:14:57	Ctcp	Ping from gevaerts!n=fg@rockbox/developer/gevaerts
00:14:57	Ctcp	Ping from gevaerts!n=fg@rockbox/developer/gevaerts
00:15:01	kugel	but even if the differences between codecs and plugins aren't huge, usb drivers are probably going to be more like codecs
00:15:20	Ctcp	Ping from gevaerts!n=fg@rockbox/developer/gevaerts
00:15:51		Quit gevaerts ("Reconnecting")
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00:17:03	pamaury	Yes but having say so, it doesn't change the fact a big part of usb core has probably to be rewritten to handle loadable usb drivers. The same probably applies to usb drivers themselves
00:18:42		Quit Lss (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
00:18:51	gevaerts	not really I think. The USB drivers call a very limited set of core functions (storage for MSC, and the USB ones). Those need a plugin_api like table. The other way is already done by a set of function pointers
00:19:59	pamaury	Well it depends on the driver. A driver like MTP requires quite a big set of functions
00:21:03	gevaerts	but anyway, loadable USB drivers make no sense at all if they need another reserved block of memory, so using the plugin buffer seems to be the most sensible idea there, unless we allocate them on the audio buffer...
00:21:32	gevaerts	pamaury: you add dircache, tagcache and file access, right?
00:22:29	pamaury	My current code needs dircache and file access (including fat functions to retrive free space). It currently doesn't use tagcache but will use it at some point probably
00:22:55	pamaury	I don't have anything in mind.
00:23:13	gevaerts	those are still the easy bits I think. Multiple plugins are the real problem.
00:23:35	pamaury	Indeed if the plugin system was not designed for it
00:23:39	gevaerts	And as long as nobody proposes a workable solution for that, loadable USB drivers will remain a dream
00:24:25	gevaerts	The plugin system as such could handle it. Just a table of pointers on both sides. It's the lack of a good way to do position independent blobs of code that's the problem
00:24:41		Quit GeekShado_ ("The cake is a lie !")
00:24:44	pamaury	Can't the compiler to that ?
00:24:49	pamaury	*do
00:25:23	pamaury	Then it's just a question of relocs, no ? (I only have x86 knowledge but it shouldn't be that different in that case)
00:25:35	gevaerts	the compiler can if I understand things correctly. The linker can't. At least not without help from the loader
00:25:37	soap	am I the only one who is curious about the validity of the CC license on The Simpsons theme? http://themes.rockbox.org/index.php?target=ipodvideo
00:25:47	gevaerts	soap: no
00:26:15	soap	I know I've been gone for a few months, but I didn't see anything about a change in policy.
00:26:46	pamaury	gevaerts: what do you mean by the linker can't ?
00:27:32	gevaerts	pamaury: it will generate a global offset table usually, which you have to fix up while loading. Torne's opinion was that it's a mess
00:27:48	gevaerts	I haven't looked in detail
00:28:32	pamaury	This looks similar to relocations. The current code is linked for a particuliar address ?
00:28:47	gevaerts	yes
00:29:42	pamaury	But then there is only one loaded codec at a time ?
00:30:14	gevaerts	yes
00:30:57	pamaury	No the fundamental problem is to be able to load several blobs of code in a position independent way. That's problem a none trivial change indeed
00:31:05	pamaury	* s/No/So
00:32:29	gevaerts	It's doable of course, but the question is if the complexity and possibly larger code is worth the gains
00:33:43	pamaury	Not sure about the complexity. One has to look in detail.
00:34:38	gevaerts	this is probably going to be platform specific, so it would have to be solved four times (at this time), plus some work for the sims
00:35:40	pamaury	Sure the amount of work required is important.
00:39:14		Quit Rob2222 ()
00:39:31	kugel	gevaerts: plugins on the sim are dynamically linked AFAIK anyway, so that wouldn't be a huge problem
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00:40:54	pamaury	On the sims, there is not problem because it's implemented in the OS
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00:53:16	amiconn	pamaury: Can't you just use the cluster number of the first cluster as an identifier?
00:53:27	amiconn	goned
00:54:20	mcuelenaere	hmm looks like MIPS has a separate register to do PIC, while ARM adds the address of each referenced variable at the end of the function: http://pastebin.com/m5dfab3f3
00:54:34	*	mcuelenaere wonders whether something similar could be done on ARM
00:56:53	gevaerts	amiconn: I suspect that that depends on whether there are write operations. I suspect that changing tags might not be possible in-place in all containers. That could mean that the cluster number is not constant enough
00:57:01	*	gevaerts isn't entirely sure
00:57:57	amiconn	Does that matter, i.e. is it allowed that the id of an object changes if the object itself changes?
00:59:02	gevaerts	I don't know for sure, but I would assume that it isn't allowed, or it would be pretty tricky to write more than one tag in a row
00:59:32	amiconn	If the total number of clusrers isn't too high it would be possible to use the cluster number of the containing folder, combined with the dirindex of the file
00:59:47		Quit ShapeShifter499 ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.5/20091109125225]")
00:59:50	gevaerts	that breaks if files are added
00:59:55	amiconn	no
01:00
01:00:11	amiconn	Why would it?
01:00:12	gevaerts	oh indeed
01:00:16	mcuelenaere	hmm using -msingle-pic-base -fpic on ARM does that
01:00:17	*	gevaerts is stupid today
01:00:52	amiconn	New files are either appended, or reuse deleted entries
01:01:12	amiconn	That means a new object might get the same id as a previously deleted object though
01:01:41	gevaerts	yes, but if it's deleted explicitely, that shouldn'd be a problem I hope
01:02:24	amiconn	Problem is that fat32 cluster numbers can be max. 28 bit. If a volume really makes use of the full range, there are only 4 bits left for dirindex...
01:03:17	gevaerts	Maybe not even that. I don't know if the ID has to be unique per volume or per device
01:03:50	gevaerts	It could break if operations involve working on a copy of the file and then renaming back. That can be worked around in various more or less clean ways of course
01:04:39	gevaerts	if you reduce the problem to building an id for each directory, possibly just maintaining a list in RAM is doable. There are likely a lot less directories than files
01:04:46	gevaerts	although you never know
01:05:42	amiconn	A directory can have a maximum of 64K entries (2MByte)
01:06:15	amiconn	That means the dirindex is 16 bits
01:07:26	amiconn	One file very likely uses several entries (lfn mechanism)
01:08:16	gevaerts	you can't really make use of that though, as it doesn't reduce the range of the indexes
01:09:16	*	amiconn wonders how likely a hash collision would be (crc32)
01:11:39	gevaerts	I'd really go for using either dircache, or if that's not possible due to lowmem, a disk-backed specialised LRU cache, possibly only for the directories. Lowmem targets are likely to use flash, so performance shouldn't be too bad
01:14:03	Torne	mcuelenaere: -fpic makes ARM use a base register, but it doesn't work the way you think
01:14:14	mcuelenaere	Torne: why not?
01:14:17	Torne	mcuelenaere: the way -fpic works is intimately tied up with the notion of what a shared library is.
01:14:38	mcuelenaere	Torne: do you know of any docs of this?
01:14:41	*	mcuelenaere couldn't find much
01:14:50	Torne	the references to variables are not offsets from the data section, they are references to indexes into the GOT
01:14:57	Torne	and the GOT is just filled with relocs
01:15:03	Torne	so you need a dynamic loader.
01:15:14	mcuelenaere	ah..
01:15:17	Torne	There is no way to make -fpic generate code that can work withuot a dynamic loader afaict
01:15:28	Torne	and there is no way to get gcc to avoid positino dependencies without -fpic :)
01:15:51	Torne	There are ancient patches to gcc written by uclinux people which provide other pic modes which are more suitable for embedded.. but they are for 2.95 era
01:16:03	Torne	no chance of applying them to 4.x and they seem to be buggy
01:16:38	Torne	but yah, i fyou want to see, compile something with -fpic
01:16:40	mcuelenaere	is that -fembedded-pic? that should be on 3.0 (not that it helps much)
01:16:52	Torne	the embedded-pic option never worked
01:17:01	Torne	but yes it was for 3.x
01:17:06	Torne	the one tha worked was -mno-got on 2.95
01:17:12	mcuelenaere	3.3*
01:17:14	mcuelenaere	ah
01:17:14	Torne	as far as i can tell uclinux gave up
01:17:21	Torne	they use elf2flt now
01:17:25	gevaerts	assuming 10000 files per DAP, and perfect hash distribution, if my calculations are not wrong, there's about 20% chance of at least one collision if there are 100000 DAPs. 2.5% for 10000 DAPs
01:17:39	Torne	basically, converting elf to a much simpler format, but one that still has relocations
01:17:50	Torne	we could do that, but then we'd need code to apply the relocs
01:18:36	Torne	someone suggested -fpie should be closer, but linking with -pie forces the linker into -shared mode and it starts producing dynamic link information which you can't really remove without breaking it :)
01:18:57	gevaerts	Torne: are the relocations much more than just adding the same number to every word in the gop?
01:19:15	Torne	gevaerts: yes. :)
01:19:23	gevaerts	ok, forget about me asking :)
01:19:23	Torne	they don't all refer to data section, they can also refer to text section
01:19:34	Torne	also, the way we link atm resolves all these refs
01:19:49	Torne	i can compile plugins -fpic just fine, if i add a .got section to the link script
01:20:00	Torne	but the resulting .elf for each plugin is fully relocated to the plugin buffer :)
01:20:06	Torne	so the code got worse for nothing.
01:20:17	gevaerts	for sh I get an ICE on one plugin if I do that :)
01:20:20	Torne	to stop it doing this you'd have to start convincing the toolchain to link plugins as shared libraries
01:20:31	Torne	so that they are left witht he relocs in.
01:20:40	Torne	tbh i think we'd be better off doing what uclinux does
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01:20:59	Torne	build regular non-pic code, with relocations, and link it without resolving the relocs
01:21:07	Torne	then run it through elf2flt to turn it into a flatbinary
01:21:13	Torne	and implement a flat binary loader :)
01:21:19	Torne	the code to relocate flts is pretty simple
01:21:41	Torne	the resulting code would be identical to what we run now, it would just take slightly longer to load a plugin
01:22:29	Torne	we should probably find some kind of gcc/ld guru though and check i haven't missed something
01:22:49	Torne	we could live with a patched gcc, even, i guess.
01:23:02	Torne	as long as the patch was actually reliable
01:23:13	gevaerts	on the other hand maybe we should just not care too much, and send people who want this sort of thing to ipodlinux...
01:23:18	Torne	that's the alternative, yah
01:23:35	Torne	i'm not advocating doing this :)
01:23:43	Torne	just if we were going to do it this is how we'd probably have to do it
01:24:42	mcuelenaere	Torne: is the newest version of elf2flt on http://www.uclinux.org/pub/uClinux/utilities/?
01:26:13		Quit dfkt ("-= SysReset 2.53=- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.")
01:26:41	Torne	mcuelenaere: haven't a clue
01:26:50	Torne	the uclinnux stuff all seems to be exceptionally badly documented
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01:27:07	Torne	if someone wanted to take this further they should talk to gcc/binutils people and also to uclinux people
01:27:10	Torne	but i can't be arsed
01:27:41	Torne	in other news i nearly have frotz working on rockbox
01:27:49	Torne	i can run curses, which is a pretty big game
01:28:03	Torne	but inputting commands only works if the commands have nine or more letters
01:28:09	Torne	so you can say "inventory"
01:28:11	Torne	but not "quit"
01:28:47	Torne	regardless of this bug it is just as painful to play a text adventure on rockbox as i suspected it would be
01:28:53	Torne	:)
01:29:27	gevaerts	Torne: you're now the ideal tester for all those virtual keyboard patches :)
01:29:44	Torne	yeah, i guess
01:29:52	Torne	i need to fix this input bug, and then poke at screen output some more
01:30:02	Torne	it doesn't quite print things int he right places sometimes it seems
01:30:17	Torne	but it's surprising how easy this port was to get to a working level :)
01:30:23	Torne	frotz is impressively portable
01:32:00	*	amiconn wonders how large and complex a relocating loader would actually be
01:33:07	Unhelpful	depends, probably, on the executable format. one adapted very closely to our purposes could be quite simple, i'd think...
01:33:49	Torne	amiconn: a loader for flt is very simple, tbh
01:33:51	Unhelpful	it would be nice if we could replace use of struct plugin_api with relocs
01:33:54	Torne	the relocs are a single table of words
01:34:18	Torne	you just add the base address to each thing pointed to
01:34:30	Torne	with a couple of bits used to tell you which section
01:34:53		Quit archivator ("Leaving")
01:34:57	*	amiconn would be interested in (coarse) numbers
01:35:00	Unhelpful	especially for gcc-generated calls to mem, which would no longer need to go through a function in pluginlib that then calls by pointer to the core mem
01:35:11	Torne	Yah, we could have relocations relative to the rocbox binary's .text, which would remove the plugin_api struct
01:35:25	Torne	not sure if flt can quite do that but the same principle applies
01:35:55	Torne	symbian does something similar, we convert elf to a really stupid inary format with fixed number of sections and very simple reloc format
01:35:55	amiconn	Torne: That wouldn't save anything by itself though - you'd need the offsets instead of the addresses
01:36:14	Torne	amiconn: hm?
01:36:26	Torne	amiconn: you leave the offset in the place that's going to be relocated
01:36:41	Torne	(where ELF leaves it as 0)
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01:36:55	amiconn	If you replace the plugin api by relocation, the core would need an offset table to these functions
01:37:07	Torne	Oh, right
01:37:15	Torne	yes.
01:37:25	Torne	it would still make the code run faster
01:37:40	Torne	you can resolve that at load time, instead of at every call
01:37:40	Unhelpful	amiconn: yes, the core would need an offset table, which would probably take as much space as the plugin_api, but the plugins would be smaller/faster since they could short-call core functions
01:38:11	amiconn	Short-call? Nah.
01:38:12	Torne	heh, that's even more like symbian in fact: that's basically link by ordinal
01:38:22	Torne	DLL style linkage instead of shlib
01:39:04	amiconn	Not on the beast, and not on the 60/80GB iPod Video
01:39:48	Torne	amiconn: why not?
01:39:51	amiconn	Hmm, not correct. If we do relocation, the plugin buffer wouldn't need a fixed address anymore. It could go right after the core binary
01:39:52	Unhelpful	amiconn: why could they not be short calls? the loader would write the correct offsets into the plugin code branch instructions...
01:40:10	Torne	yah, that was one of the benefits
01:40:17	Torne	not just multiple plugins, but dropping the fixed address
01:40:24	amiconn	Torne, Unhelpful: Max. offset for short calls is +/-32MB iirc. Said targets have 64MB RAM
01:40:26		Quit robin0800 (Remote closed the connection)
01:40:43	Torne	then if you put the audio buffer at the end fo ram you can use the same build for 32/64mb ipodvideo
01:40:49	amiconn	So if we leave the buffers where they are, short calls wouldn't be possible
01:40:56	Torne	yes, i was assuming we would move the buffers
01:41:21	Torne	also on beast we have an MMU anyway.. we could map stuff wherever right now, without any of this
01:41:23	Unhelpful	amiconn: ah, i see your point. we could change the layout to fix that, though, and with relocation we can pretty much put the plugin buffer wherever we want, without recompiling the plugins.
01:41:29	amiconn	Yeah, so what binsize are we talking here? 1KB? 10KB?
01:41:54	Torne	amiconn: a flt style loader, i'd guess probably 1-2kb of code only
01:42:08	Torne	it's basically just a loop and a switch statement
01:42:22	amiconn	Unhelpful: In fact that would allow to turn the current "overlay" plugins into regular, but oversized, plugins
01:42:24	Torne	iterate over relocs, switch on type, read/add/write each pplace in ram
01:42:34	amiconn	(provided the plugin buffer is placed "right"
01:42:50	Unhelpful	Torne: i like the idea of doing link-by-ordinal for core functions. we could use the exact same logic to validate plugins as now :)
01:43:17	Torne	Unhelpful: yes. we are already doing link by ordinal, just deferred to call time :)
01:44:11	amiconn	There are also some pointers in the plugin api. Iiuc dynamic linking would also save a level of indirection there?
01:44:24	Unhelpful	amiconn: that's the idea exactly. :)
01:44:24	amiconn	(I mean pointers to variables)
01:44:32	Torne	yup, that would need to be a different type but still
01:44:44	Torne	you canm make do with a handful of reloc types, maybe ~8
01:44:55	Torne	(as opposed to the 110 you have with ARM ELF)
01:44:56	Unhelpful	yes, you could have a reloc type for reads, writes, load-address-of, etc.
01:45:21	amiconn	Torne: I don't know this flt format. Do you know the Amiga hunk format?
01:45:27	amiconn	That also looks quite simple
01:45:30	Torne	no :)
01:45:34	Torne	i don't really now flt either
01:45:40	Torne	i'm going by the vague description i read on the itnernets
01:45:49	Torne	and my existing knowledge of E32Image from symbian ;)
01:46:04	amiconn	hmm
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01:46:22	Torne	if flt is suitable for our purposes then it'd be ideal because of the already-existing elf2flt
01:46:41	Torne	if we did our own format we would need to write somethign that can read ELF
01:46:41	Torne	this is NIGHTMARISH in the extreme ;)
01:46:47	Torne	even with elflib
01:46:57	Torne	it's just such a complex format :(
01:47:00	Unhelpful	amiconn: do you know any trick to force newgcc to treat cross-section adr pseudo-op as valid? it's an issue for eabi on gigabeat f. it's easily fixable, and the current code is technically invalid...
01:47:05	amiconn	It would need to support all our archs though
01:48:34	Torne	Unhelpful: adr just doesn't work that way, no? surely it's just going to generate a ldr= anyway?
01:48:46	Torne	amiconn: yes, i have no idea which arches work.
01:48:54	amiconn	Unhelpful: I have no idea
01:48:57	Unhelpful	Torne: no, it generates an add <target>, pc, <offset>
01:49:32	Torne	yah, but it doesn't now where the section is going to be does it
01:49:36	Torne	so it has to emit a reloc
01:49:41	gevaerts	Torne: flt is the standard uclinux format?
01:49:49	Torne	gevaerts: it's a uclinux format
01:49:52	Torne	i dunno about standard
01:49:55	gevaerts	hm, ok
01:50:03	Torne	it can be used to produce XIP binaries
01:50:05	Unhelpful	Torne: yes, and newer gcc validates the section, probably at link time?
01:50:09	Torne	with additional caution
01:50:15	gevaerts	otherwise I wouldn't think architecture is something to worry about
01:50:19	Unhelpful	it's given a section in the asm, though, so it might be flagged as bad then
01:50:50	Torne	if it was bad at asm time it would fail then, surely
01:51:04	Torne	are the two sections in question being combined int eh link script?
01:51:12	Torne	or are they just emitted near each other?
01:51:22	Torne	i suspect if you combine them the reloc will work
01:51:54	Unhelpful	Torne: lemme try it again?
01:52:29	Unhelpful	per docs the adr pseudo op is valid only for symbols in the same section as the code
01:52:30	Torne	woo, input bug is fixed
01:52:35	Torne	ah right.
01:52:44	Torne	well, frotz kinda works then
01:53:06	Torne	i managed to "close trapdoor" "take key" "inventory" "quit" in curses, which is one of the biggest z5 games there is
01:53:06		Quit distill3d (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
01:53:16	Torne	there's some minor rendering bugs with inverted text in the quoteboxes
01:53:23	Torne	but hey.
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01:53:47	Unhelpful	the assembler fails it.
01:54:26	Unhelpful	the symbols is previously defined when the code is reached, and labeled with a section. that's enough to determine that the adr is invalid at compile time
01:54:54	Unhelpful	/home/chshrcat/build/rockbox/firmware/target/arm/s3c2440/crt0.S:558: Error: symbol vectors is in a different section
01:55:25	*	Torne is gonna go to bed now that frotz is working :)
01:55:40	Torne	actually, a quick question: can you actually type in the simulator?
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01:55:44	Torne	as in when soemthing calls kbd_input can you just type in the text? :)
01:56:04	Torne	instead of simulating the onscreen keyboard
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02:00
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02:14:16	amiconn	Unhelpful: If 'adr' is turned into a pc relative add, it sure won't work over longer distances, since the offset is an ordinary arm shifted constant, or am I missing something?
02:15:09	amiconn	Torne: No, since the simulator is there to simulate target behaviour as close as possible
02:15:25	Unhelpful	amiconn: it's not a very long distance, the issue is that it is explicitly stated to be invalid between sections, and that is now enforced.
02:15:39	amiconn	You'll want rockbox-as-an-app (which doesn't exist yet)
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05:28:38	CIA-80	New commit by mc2739 (r23769): Manual - Describe how to work with FMR files ...
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05:37:38	Crackerizer	Hello,
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05:39:07	Crackerizer	I have uploaded thai language to patch tracker for somtime now. But it's still not accepted.
05:39:38	Crackerizer	In the past, it is usually acceped in a couple days.
05:40:01	Crackerizer	So, i may do something wrong this time.
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05:50:52	Llorean	Crackerizer: Everything depends on peoples' free times. It probably just means nobody's had a chance to look at it yet.
05:51:07	Llorean	If there were a problem, it would be posted as a comment.
05:53:12	Crackerizer	Llorean, I just wonder as it's always accepted very fast.
05:53:53	Llorean	I just told you, it depends on peoples' free time. It won't always be.
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06:20:18	eein	any suggestions for a sandisk e200 series that wont boot the bootloader "file not found" and doesn't show up as a drive?
06:21:03	eein	was copying files to it before it bombed out saying could not read source, just rockboxed it 40 minutes ago
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06:22:42	eein	boot ver 6
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10:57:50	Zagor	what is the recorder_pad target name used in the lang files?
10:58:24	Zagor	ah, it's a feature
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11:00:17	gevaerts	it's not a bug? :)
11:00:30	Zagor	:)
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11:19:31	Zagor	sed:ing the lang files wasn't as bad as I thought
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11:36:02	amiconn	Zagor: I have a question regarding 'configure'
11:36:46	amiconn	Right now when you reconfigure, it still asks for those values where you just hit 'enter' when first configuring the build
11:36:54	amiconn	This is especially annoying when dealing with voice builds
11:37:30	amiconn	Imo it would be better to have a global batch mode in 'configure', so this could be handled easily. What do you think?
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11:44:39	Overand	jkbl;'
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12:08:01	Zagor	amiconn: sounds good to me
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12:13:45	drache	i have a question about the hardware mp3 player supportm which i can't find on your website
12:14:09	drache	so perhaps one of you could help me out?
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12:15:18	Zagor	drache: you need to ask the question before we can help
12:15:42	drache	ok, I want to know if the Ipod nano 5g is curently supported by rockbox
12:16:02	Zagor	"Apple: 1st through 5.5th generation iPod"
12:16:07	Zagor	so, yes
12:16:22	Zagor	blah sorry, nano. no, that's not supported
12:16:22	drache	oh this sounds great
12:16:28	drache	no
12:16:49	drache	and I thought this 5g device is supported
12:17:11	drache	so which mp3 player do you prefer to use with rockbox
12:17:28	Zagor	the ones listed on the front page?
12:17:43	drache	i think about to choose the ipod nano 5g as fist
12:18:02	drache	but now i need to choose another
12:19:23	drache	and what about the ipod touch?
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12:21:57	Zagor	drache: no. only the ones listed on the front page.
12:24:22	topik	the mere fact you can't find it on the website means it's not supported
12:25:57	drache	ok now i understood. thanks for your help
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12:29:52	CIA-80	New commit by zagor (r23770): Changed player lists a bit. Added catch-all 'not supported' line at the bottom.
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12:35:39	Torne	amiconn: i don't really want rockbox as an app, i want to be able to test stuff that involves a lot of typing without it being very tedious :)
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13:12:36	seani	I've found some cheap v2 C250's that I gambled on as progress seems to be good. Should I hold off sharing the source on the forum? Wary of mentioning it and causing a flood of "demands" for progress.
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13:41:32	*	soap_ doesn't understand the question.
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13:42:50	Soap	seani, are you asking if you should reveal where you got cheap C250 v2s?
13:47:17	geertvdijk	Soap: I think he means that yes. To prevent people demanding (or nagging, or whatnot) more progress for the C200-v2 series
13:49:34	Soap	sounds like seani has codependency issues. ;) If people act like whiny bitches it's not seani's problem. I want a cheap DAP.
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13:56:46	seani	Yes, that was it really. Might not even be thay cheap (�20 inc. delivery?) but they were convenient for me. And the OF isn't the end of the world if it doesn't work out, still not a bad little player
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14:00:14	seani	Soap: Item 270481778367 - right that's the end of my OT chuntering. And I'd rather not risk being psychoanalysed any further :-)
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14:04:14	Kitar\|st	aloha
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15:40:34	Torne	i have some code to put into a plugin; most of it is declared as GPLv2 with a notice in each file, but one part is just "Any use permitted as long as this notice remains intact"
15:40:45	Torne	should I just slap a GPLv2 notice on those as well? or what?
15:40:53	Torne	i'v emodified those files significantly for rockbox porting
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15:54:57	CIA-80	New commit by mcuelenaere (r23771): Jz4740: init I²C GPIO pins
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16:06:31	pixelma	Torne: what about Macpods? (re. forum post)
16:10:43	Torne	pixelma: the installer doesn't format them, does it?
16:10:47	Torne	you would have to do that yourself
16:11:29	*	Torne edits.
16:20:54	CIA-80	New commit by mc2739 (r23772): Fix FS #10817 - Wrong layout of the keymap table for the 'While Recording Screen'
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16:41:55	Zagor	target name change: http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/10819
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16:44:21	gevaerts	Zagor: doesn't it also need buildserver/builds?
16:44:35	Zagor	gevaerts: look closer :)
16:44:42	Zagor	second line of www.patch
16:44:52	gevaerts	oh, it's in www...
16:44:54	*	gevaerts forgot
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16:57:03	linuxstb	Zagor: The uisim bitmaps need renaming too - you don't mention that in the task.
16:57:29	Zagor	ah, good
16:58:41	linuxstb	And did you want to keep the first gen Nano as "ipodnano", not "ipodnano1g" ?
16:59:13	Zagor	no, it's supposed to be 1g. where did I miss it?
16:59:27	linuxstb	Everywhere I think...
16:59:40	linuxstb	As in, I didn't notice any use of "ipodnano1g"
17:00
17:00:34	linuxstb	ipodpatcher (mainly the Makefile) will need adjusting if you change that, but I'm happy to do that after you commit all this.
17:00:49	Zagor	the diff is a bit broken, since svn insists on only reporting the remove part of renamed files
17:01:26	linuxstb	But I don't think you changed tools/configure and builds.pm still uses ipodnano
17:01:39	linuxstb	(and the lang files...)
17:01:51	Zagor	we must be looking at different files...
17:01:56	Zagor	+ 'ipodnano1g' => {
17:02:08	linuxstb	I'm looking at your upload diff...
17:02:13	linuxstb	s/upload/uploaded/
17:03:14	linuxstb	Ah, sorry....
17:03:17	Zagor	the lang files are indeed wrong
17:03:32	linuxstb	Ah, I was looking at builds.pm in www
17:03:42	linuxstb	Not the file with the same name in tools/
17:03:57	Zagor	right, that has been changed to a symlink. but again svn diff is not very helpful :-(
17:04:27	linuxstb	Is it changed in tools/configure?
17:04:33	Zagor	yes
17:04:47	Zagor	uh, not the nano no :)
17:04:59	Zagor	peer review rocks :)
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17:06:00	linuxstb	Shouldn't "ipodvideo" be "ipodvideo32mb" ?
17:06:08	n1s	Zagor: is "<Zagor> the diff is a bit broken, since svn insists on only reporting the remove part of renamed files" why so many config-*.h files look like they're just deleted?
17:06:23	*	linuxstb doesn't know how that would affect the name of the bootloader though...
17:06:33	Zagor	n1s: yes, I moved them to a config/ dir
17:07:01	n1s	ah, i've been thinking about doing that, nice :)
17:07:28	Zagor	I figured this was a good occation since I'd be changing many of them anyway
17:08:56		Quit stoffel (Remote closed the connection)
17:09:54	Zagor	ipodmini1g is also wrong in several places. I'll fix that tonight.
17:10:26		Quit Zagor ("Don't panic")
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18:09:18	Torne	hmm, am i right ot assume that a plugin shouldn't keep a filehandle open for ages if it might exit() somewhere in the middle? ;)
18:10:11	n1s	i think so :)
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18:19:04	CIA-6	New commit by mc2739 (r23773): Manual - correct FM Radio volume key mapping problems on Fuze, Gigabeat S (remote), e200, and e200v2
18:21:23	Torne	n1s: hm, it looks like it dosn't keep the filehandle open for a very good reason, so hey :)
18:22:44	n1s	Torne: i wonder if we can guard against filehandles kept open after exiting plugins, might interfere with tsr plugins maybe though
18:24:02	Torne	i doubt we could do so easily
18:24:45	Torne	atm there's no way for anything else to know whether a plugin is doing it.
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19:08:54	saratoga	who has an HDD 1620 ?
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19:09:27	saratoga	MarkArigo i guess
19:09:39	saratoga	we should see about getting it made unstable
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20:27:36	n1s	Unhelpful_: got a chance to look closer at your testresults now, so AFAIU -fstrict aliasing with gcc 4.0.3 is faster with all codecs using the same option otherwise except ape (unchanged), mp3 (very slightly worse) and vw (slightly worse) so it seems an overall win even with our current compiler
20:30:18	n1s	results might differ with other ARM's though
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20:37:17	n1s	as for gcc versions, it seems half the codecs are faster with one version and half with the other now that you found the properly tuned settings ;)
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20:54:52	*	gevaerts tries some of this thinking about user testing thing he didn't manage yesterday
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21:06:02	notlistening	bluebrother, I ma hving trouble compiling rbutil under ubuntu 9.10 and geeting QT issues with versions
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21:06:46	notlistening	Project ERROR: Qt >= 4.3 required! and my versions 4.5.1
21:10:16	bertrik	notlistening, is the -dev package also up to date?
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21:12:28	notlistening	let me see
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21:20:42	notlistening	qt 3 & 4 together was causing problems
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21:53:17	notlistening	Does anyone know current if the rbutil will sync the .voice file with the current build from svn or only the version rbutil installs?
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23:00
23:01:00	stripwax_	Hm, looks like convbdf supports rotated and unrotated fonts. Given that many targets are now horizontally packed rather than vertically packed, what's the reason for using rotated fonts for all targets? would have thought unrotated fonts would be better for horizontally packed targets
23:02:24	B4gder	well, it makes the font files target independent
23:04:16	stripwax_	mm true .. do the build zips not include any fonts? (I can't recall)
23:04:26	B4gder	no they don't
23:04:57	B4gder	well, some font(s) but far from all
23:04:57	gevaerts	don't they have the one for cabbie?
23:06:02	stripwax_	Themes on the theme site appear to include the fonts in the zip file, but the themes are target specific anyway ..
23:06:59	gevaerts	not really. They are resolution specific
23:07:12	stripwax_	good point, well made
23:08:40	stripwax_	anyway, was just wondering. just happened across the #ifdef ROTATE stuff in convbdf. the ipod video mono_bitmap_part code ends up rereading (effectively) the same memory over and over (byte reads) and thinking if the font data was horizontally packed it would mean 4x fewer memory reads
23:09:31	stripwax_	^would^could - in the limit
23:10:07	B4gder	historically, the fonts were rotated at load time
23:10:16	stripwax_	ah I see
23:10:25	B4gder	and when the code was changed to store the fonts rotated, I believe the code was written like that
23:10:28	pamaury	gevaerts: why there is a difference in NUM_VOLUMES_PER_DRIVE depending on whether HAVE_MULTIVOLUME is explicit or not ? Why set to one if it's implicit ?
23:10:46	stripwax_	don't suppose anyone would be in favour of core code that supports both rotate and unrotated fonts ?
23:11:44	B4gder	if it makes a noticeable difference I guess a few will
23:12:31	gevaerts	pamaury: we don't want to waste RAM. Implicit HAVE_MULTIVOLUME just means that there's a card slot or something similar, explicit means that this is a custom build that needs more than one partition
23:12:46	*	stripwax_ has a think and a poke around
23:14:32	pamaury	gevaerts: I don't think it will really waste memory, NUM_VOLUMES is basically only used in disk.c and it's a small array but if you say so...
23:14:56	gevaerts	pamaury: in rockbox we tend to care about a few hundred bytes :)
23:15:42	gevaerts	On something like an e200v1 you won't care, it has 32MB RAM and flash, but on an ondio with 2MB RAM, you do care
23:17:11	pamaury	Hum, I guess were are talking about a array of int of size NUM_VOLUMES, that's a few bytes ! But I understand that usually, there is one partition per drive
23:17:42	gevaerts	um, no, there's more
23:18:11	gevaerts	look at static struct bpb fat_bpbs[NUM_VOLUMES]; in fat.c
23:19:05	gevaerts	that's 25 ints per volume
23:19:51	pamaury	ok I didn't see this...
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