#rockbox 2010-05-01

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#rockbox log for 2010-05-01

00:00:56		Join TheSeven [0] (~TheSeven@rockbox/developer/TheSeven)
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00:23:24	whitewoe	Is there any work being done on the Sansa c150? I just got one for $10 and it sucks.
00:28:06	pixelma	someone started a port long ago but it seems to have been abandoned and it didn't get very far I think
00:29:32	whitewoe	oh well, thanks
00:29:38	n17ikh	http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/SansaC100Port
00:29:45	n17ikh	but yeah, looks abandoned
00:29:55	pixelma	there should be a thread in our forums somewhere... and that
00:30:13	whitewoe	yeah I saw that, I was just wondering if there was any active development now or in the near future
00:30:27	n17ikh	a prime target for you to start your own pet port of rockbox on!
00:30:35	pixelma	whitewoe: maybe you can find other interested owners and it can be picked up again?
00:31:09	whitewoe	I'm not a coder, but I will keep an eye out for any activity
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07:01:28	S_a_i_n_t	http://imgur.com/Y3j4R.png and http://imgur.com/xSvV7.png <−− Not sure it's one I'd use myself, but someone probably will. Theme for Nano1/2g, comments?
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07:15:29	robzy	hey guys, where can i find info on usb support in rockbox?
07:15:46	Llorean	Wiki?
07:16:17	robzy	sigh so obvious, silly me, thank you
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07:17:01	robzy	"How Rockbox handles USB slave mode" <−− am I correct in thinking that Rockbox can't operate as a USB Host?
07:19:23	saratoga	correct
07:19:41	robzy	thank you :) i was googling as well but could only find references from '07, was hoping it'd changed since then
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07:49:19	S_a_i_n_t	What the?!? Turning the hold switch on, then off again when the player is off boots the palyer up again (in Rockbox).
07:49:41	S_a_i_n_t	*Oh, Nano2g...Since when has it done that?
07:49:53	S_a_i_n_t	Nano1g doesn't do this.
07:53:44	S_a_i_n_t	Huh, if the player shuts down when hold is one (idle timeout), then switching hold to off again boot the player also.
07:53:54	S_a_i_n_t	Is this a bug, or a fauture?
07:54:11	S_a_i_n_t	s/is one/is on/
07:55:34	Llorean	Are you sure it didn't do that before?
07:55:56	S_a_i_n_t	I don't know...I've never noticed it before.
07:56:38	S_a_i_n_t	I'm fairly certain I would have noticed it, but, possibly not. Kinda weird that Nano1g doesn't do it, but 2g does.
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08:01:21	Llorean	S_a_i_n_t: Well what happens when they're turned off can relate to hardware.
08:01:37	Llorean	So it'd be good to check if older builds do it.
08:04:34		Quit saratoga (Quit: Page closed)
08:04:55	S_a_i_n_t	"meh...", guess I'll just wait untill someone that knows the Nano2g code can just say it definitely should/shouldn't do this. The only reason it caught my attention was because I knew that the !g Nano doesn't do this...so it surprised me I'd never noticed the 2g did/does.
08:05:40	S_a_i_n_t	s/!g/1g/
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08:51:41	linuxstb	S_a_i_n_t: That sounds like a hardware feature to me. I've never noticed it (but have never tried it).
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09:05:26	linuxstb	S_a_i_n_t: I can confirm my nano2g does the same - and it's running a _very_ old build.
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09:38:25	*	domonoky reads those bounty mails, and thinks he has no problems if someone else can earn money on my free work.. All others are just jealous :-)
09:39:19		Quit solexx_ (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
09:41:48	AlexP	domonoky: I don't really like them and don't think the project should organise them, but if people want to make a private arrangement then fine by me :)
09:42:30	domonoky	i agree, that the project shouldnt organise them. But if someone else wants todo that, i see no problem with that.
09:42:32	funman	FlynDice: any progress with PIO ? apparently the 1st (read) transfer stops when 43 words are left from a full sector
09:43:15	AlexP	domonoky: Sure, I'm not going to try and stop them - but I don't have to like them :)
09:44:18	funman	the guy should better spend this money on a programming book if he wants to see a port
09:44:38	domonoky	or pay a student ? :-)
09:45:23	AlexP	that too :)
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09:49:03	amiconn	soap: Ideally line-out should never change volume, not even when muting, but that is how the TLV320 behaves...
09:50:09	funman	FlynDice: still 43 words left to transfer after 6 MCI_INT_RXDR interrupts, not sure what's magic about this value
09:50:36	funman	http://pastie.org/941293
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09:52:38	funman	however I see a DTO interrupt hmm
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09:53:37	funman	-> 10 more words, 33 left
09:58:48	funman	now down to 3 words, perhaps byte transfer is needed after all
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09:58:54	linuxstb	domonoky: I don't think it's just the issue of people earning money to work on Rockbox (or Linux) - after all, we are supporting students being paid by Google.
10:00
10:01:37	funman	there's also the shop selling rockboxed sansas (although we don't directly support them)
10:01:59	domonoky	linuxstb: jup, i think the same. This claim that if someone gets paid for rockbox work, is unfair for all others who contributed is just invalid and looks pretty jealous.
10:04:36	domonoky	everyone is free to make money with rockbox if they can, as long as they comply with the licence.
10:04:39	Llorean	funman: Though that shop doesn't appear to necessarily be holding up their GPL obligations
10:05:04	domonoky	we should tell that those shop owners once more :-)
10:05:37	Llorean	domonoky: I tried asking them about whether they had backups of the source for the versions they provided, but their contact email was invalid.
10:06:22	linuxstb	domonoky: It does depend on the specifics though - I do remember some bounty suggestions in the past generating that feeling in me (but I can't remember the specifics...). But I think the issue is more that this is generally collaborative work, and bounties are not really in that spirit (they are more competitive).
10:06:25	domonoky	Llorean: i wrote them once in the past about those licence issues, and the promised to change the website. But unfortunatly nothing happend.
10:06:51	linuxstb	domonoky: Are they still distributing their own rbutil binary?
10:06:58	Llorean	linuxstb: This is something very real about bounties. They encourage you not to share your work until the bounty is collected, unless you have to.
10:07:24	domonoky	Llorean: why, just work in public and then every knows who has done how much work..
10:07:28	Llorean	They also may encourage people to wait until another bounty is set before pitching in again, because it makes it clear there's money to be made (this isn't necessarily harmful, as it can also draw in new people, but it may discourage 'free' work)
10:08:01	Llorean	domonoky: No, my point is that if you want the whole bounty, you won't share your work until your done because then you'd have to share the bounty if someone took where you were at and finished it.
10:08:33	Llorean	The fact is, some things will only get done if there are bounties, obviously, but it does encourage people not to post half-complete patches as long as they feel they can still complete it themselves.
10:08:48	linuxstb	Llorean: But there _is_ a "problem" of no-one really being interested in porting to the newer ipods, and it would be nice to solve that somehow... So I would like to see the discussion be more positive - the original poster simply wants that to happen...
10:09:02	Llorean	linuxstb: I think my four points were pretty positive.
10:09:05	domonoky	Llorean: true, but thats not neccessary, just put the requirement to work public into the bounty goals.
10:09:36	Llorean	domonoky: I don't know that there's any practical way to enforce it.
10:09:51	funman	hmm now i'm down to -18 bytes left to be transferred
10:10:18	domonoky	Llorean: easy, if someone posts a working patch without previous work, just dont give him the bounty :-)
10:10:25	domonoky	+visibl
10:10:46	Llorean	domonoky: I doubt they'd license the code so that we could use it unless we paid.
10:10:53	domonoky	arg, previous visible work ie patches in the tracker, a git repo, etc
10:11:06	Llorean	So we'd be in a position of actively turning down work we could have.
10:11:19	Llorean	Also, how many previously visible patches, over how much time?
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10:11:28	AlexP	domonoky: And I never claimed that someone getting paid is unfair for all others who contributed, in all cases - just very specific ones like the one I gave - e.g. someone just enables a driver for an already written chip and then claims a large bounty for getting USB to work for instance
10:11:32	Llorean	I just don't think it's very tenable. You'd have to come up with pretty complex rules
10:11:33	domonoky	Llorean: thats not possible, they have to comply with GPL with the licence for patches.
10:12:04	linuxstb	So we get it for free ;)
10:12:15	domonoky	AlexP: i think even that is fine.
10:12:32	Llorean	domonoky: Yes, in some cases. But if they have original files (such as new drivers) it's not linked against anything, and their copy can be under any license.
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10:12:38	domonoky	we only turn down the payment, not their work :-)
10:12:55	domonoky	its like gsoc, even if we fail students we can use their work.
10:12:57	Llorean	It wouldn't be hard to provide a non-GPL sample of the code, or strip all GPL from the text file, to demonstrate that the work is done without providing something that must be GPL
10:12:59	AlexP	And it is hardly jealous, I haven't done any of the other work :)
10:14:57	domonoky	Llorean: i thinks thats pretty hard. if the patch is something which should be used in rockbox, is adapted to rockbox and then you can hardly claim its independent.
10:15:16	domonoky	ofcourse things like a bootloader could be done independend and under a other licence.
10:15:26	Llorean	domonoky: But the GPL requirement is linked code isn't it?
10:15:30	Llorean	Until you compile it, that's different.
10:15:41	Llorean	Or things that have an explicit separate source file.
10:15:41	domonoky	Llorean: you will have to link it to test it for sure.
10:15:53	Llorean	Yup
10:15:57	Llorean	But they don't have to distribute that binary
10:17:28	domonoky	hm, but you can ofcourse require that their patch is under GPL if they want a chance for the bounty. People who try to go around, just dont get any money.
10:17:36	Llorean	Yeah.
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10:17:52	Llorean	I'm just saying that still puts us in the condition of saying "offer us the chance to take your code without paying, and we might pay you"
10:17:59	domonoky	in the worst case, they dont get money, and we cant use their code.. nothing lost.
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10:18:34	*	funman put a bounty on writing code for sansa AMS v2: price = 1 beer, conditions = none
10:18:38	Llorean	And it still doesn't really solve the openness thing.
10:18:55	AlexP	funman: You pay yourself? :)
10:19:18	Llorean	If I wanted the whole bounty, I'd do the work in private, but save a patch halfway through. I'd post it, then a few days later the 'finished' patch. If a lot of interest was shown, and I saw evidence people were working on it, I'd publish my finished one sooner.
10:19:20	*	domonoky offers a bavarian beer for this too
10:19:20	funman	well i put the bounty so yes
10:19:36	funman	and there's an extra bonus of 1 other beer if you steal the code from someone else
10:19:37	Llorean	I'm not saying bounties won't get us code we wouldn't get otherwise.
10:19:49	Llorean	I'm just saying I feel they discourage collaboration, and I don't think it's easy to solve this
10:20:16	*	domonoky thinks we wont know this for sure, untill we have tried it :-)
10:21:14	*	domonoky offers a full case of bavarian beers for the one who snatches away the AMS v2 USB project just before the otherone finsihed it :-)
10:21:31	Llorean	One could easily argue that only the person who completes the project should get paid
10:21:42	Llorean	Since everyone else released their code under the GPL anyway, so that one person had permission to use it.
10:21:47	linuxstb	Trying to be more positive, I wonder if we could have some kind of "future targets" page, to try and publicise potential new ports. That page would have the current state of hacking that device - e.g. the fact that we can exploit DFU mode to run our own code on the Classics and 3rd/4th gen Nanos. We could offer hardware to people willing to work on those ports, with a condition that they return it if they don't, but mainly it would just
10:21:47	linuxstb	be a way to piublicise promising-looking new targets for people that fancy the challenge of a new port.
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10:22:04	Llorean	linuxstb: That is an excellent idea
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10:22:15	Llorean	For example the Zune classic currently seems quite promising, doesn't it?
10:22:34	funman	Llorean: is supervisor mode already available?
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10:23:21	linuxstb	Llorean: Yes, assuming the exploit can be turned into a bootloader, which I don't think anyone knows for sure.
10:24:06	Llorean	linuxstb: I think the assumption is that it should be able to, though, isn't it?
10:24:45	Llorean	funman: They said kernel mode should be available on the classic since it's CE5 based, but not necessarily on the HD, but that was a while ago and just "what we think" right after the crack.
10:24:51	linuxstb	Yes, that's the impression I got. I'm just noting that "should" isn't the same as "can".
10:25:14	Llorean	Yeah. Quite promising, but not a sure thing
10:25:38	*	Llorean thinks Bagder made a good point about code quality and bounties, too.
10:25:59	funman	Llorean: where did Bagder make that?
10:26:08	Llorean	In the mailing list
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10:26:22	Llorean	"When you go "bounty" there's suddenly a race, and there's suddendly a situation where the winner takes it all. It makes it an individual act to get the money rather that to help the project. You may take shortcuts, ignore problems and more, just to be able to claim the money. If you don't, perhaps your competitors do? No, a bounty is a tricky thing to work out right IMHO."
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10:28:08	*	Llorean thinks private bounties are okay, but that having the project take responsibility for any of them is just a recipe to get us involved in new and interesting arguments.
10:28:28	Llorean	Unless it's a _really_ simple bounty, like "$25 for a new default theme"
10:29:04	Llorean	A bounty for something that's obviously intended to be one-man work, but we don't care who the man is so much, and the first one to get it done isn't necessarily the bounty taker.
10:31:04	JdGordon	a new theme is a one man effort?
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10:34:57	Llorean	A new theme certainly could be. Or a team, where the people agreed to work together before hand, and can agree on their own split. I mean if it's actually new you're mostly commissioning art.
10:45:43	Bagder	it's also a matter of amount, if anyone would offer 3K USD for it, then everyone involved in making skins possible in the first place might feel a bit overrun
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10:55:38	S_a_i_n_t	All my themes have been "one man jobs", but I also have to give credit to the 100's of other individuals that made the codebase which makes it possible for me to theme my device.
10:56:05	S_a_i_n_t	For that reason, I feel uneasy accepting any ammount of money for the multiple Rockbox installs I've done.
10:56:21	Llorean	I think being paid for specific work is very, very reasonable.
10:56:22	S_a_i_n_t	And "private" themes I;ve created.
10:56:36	Llorean	Like "for $5 I'll get Rockbox installed for you" kinda stuff makes perfect sense
10:56:39	Llorean	You spend time, you get paid.
10:56:45	S_a_i_n_t	But, no matter what...it's cutting someone out of the loop.
10:56:46	Llorean	And for GSOC it's basically us hiring people for a specific job.
10:57:06	Llorean	But instead of picking a person for a job, when you say "$300 exists, and will go to whoever gets X working" you create a competition, which is different.
10:57:11	Llorean	As Bagder said so well
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10:57:31	Llorean	S_a_i_n_t: But these are people who've not only contributed for free, but agreed to let other people make money from their work in advance.
10:57:33	S_a_i_n_t	A % of any money I earn themeing should go to JdGordon, kugel (others) etc. so I personally take none.
10:57:43	S_a_i_n_t	But, that's just me.
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11:00:53	S_a_i_n_t	I guess, the objection I have to making money from the project is pruely moral, and entirely my own. If anyone else wants to make money off of it, or offer a bounty for a specific piece of code, then so be it. I have no objections to it, I just couldn;t feel comfortable accepting money/charging for work myself.
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11:04:22	JdGordon	I tihnk this guy doesnt have his priorities right.... the same bounty % for accelerometer and power managemnet?
11:04:36	JdGordon	asssuming the bounty is for whats more important
11:05:10	JdGordon	and expiration dates.. wtf?
11:05:40	Llorean	His ideal seems to actually base the bounties on "difficulty" rather than "value"
11:06:04	Llorean	So I think he'd welcome feedback on that.
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11:07:22	Llorean	The expiration date makes a kind of sense from his standpoint - I can see how he might think that if there's not one, people might just wait around until they feel like it because the money will always be out there waiting to be claimed.
11:07:33	Llorean	Meanwhile the people who've put it in escrow are out that money whether they get something for it or not
11:07:57	Llorean	At the same time, someone might want to point out that expiration dates could very easily make someone look at it, say "damn, there's no realistic way that'll be done in four months" and skip the idea entirely
11:08:42	S_a_i_n_t	It seems weird puting a deadline on t though, because if its not met, won't he just have to come back and proposition the same people again?
11:08:52	S_a_i_n_t	s/t/it/
11:09:44	Llorean	Yeah
11:09:47	S_a_i_n_t	The fact that a bounty need be offered suggests options are slim in the first place.
11:09:50	Llorean	I'm not saying it realistically makes sense
11:09:58	Llorean	I'm just saying, I can see how it might make sense to someone at first glance
11:10:08	S_a_i_n_t	Oh, totally.
11:11:13	Llorean	I mean, in regard to a bounty, the best plan might be to let people apply for it like a job app. Bob comes up and says "I think I can do a Nano 4G port". Then nobody else can apply for the bounty as long as he's providing progress updates (like GSOC). He can involve others however he wants, and it's up to him to agree with others how the money will be split
11:11:22	Llorean	Then, if his port meets our requirements, he gets the money and splits it how they've agreed.
11:11:51	Llorean	You're basically simply hiring programmers.
11:12:13	Llorean	But you're posting them as bounties that people apply for, rather than looking for programmers in general.
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11:28:38	*	domonoky likes this future target wikipage idea. maybe we could use donations to get players for this future targets, which we then could lend to potential developers.
11:29:24	Llorean	I see no problem with that at all
11:33:08	topik	would you not get a lot of people asking 'is it done yet' ?
11:33:19	Llorean	You do that anyway
11:33:19	topik	or perhaps not more than they already do ?
11:33:32	Llorean	I don't think so. Not too much, at least
11:34:20	Llorean	It might also make sense to spend some of the funds on acquiring "official Rockbox players" to be held by some people so that we have some of each player that will always be around (thought not necessarily immediately available) for the big stuff
11:34:36	Llorean	I mean it occasionally comes up where we just don't even know who might own a specific player any more.
11:35:05	topik	is there a page which lists the current availability?
11:35:11	Llorean	So when bootloader changes for the iPod come up, you have a list of people who have volunteered in advance to hold on to specific iPods for us for such testing purposes.
11:35:22	Llorean	topik: There's a testers page where some people have listed their personal players
11:36:33	*	Llorean expects his line on that page is somewhat out of date
11:36:41	topik	that's a serious list
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11:38:13	topik	mr. gevaerts is quite the collector
11:40:46	domonoky	topik: take a look at TowerOfRockbox in the wiki, if you want to see many many mp3players :-)
11:40:59	*	Llorean updates the list
11:41:24	Llorean	There were four or five MP3 players I hadn't added myself to yet.
11:43:44	topik	i've seen the tower domonoky. it's impressive
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11:45:35	topik	someone should put a bounty on getting rockbox to run on led pigs
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11:56:40	pamaury	why isn't there the clip+ on the testing page ?
11:56:53	pamaury	only stable targets ?
11:57:12	Llorean	Probably because nobody who owns one has added themselves
11:57:19	Llorean	Generally speaking, many people don't know that page even exists
11:57:30	Llorean	Or are like me, and forget to update it while acquiring several new targets
11:57:41	*	pamaury adds a clip+ entry
11:58:51	Llorean	I'd say there's no reason not to have a line there for anything that can be selected in the build system, at the very least.
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14:12:44	linuxstb	rasher: To answer your question in -community about documentation of the ipod boot procedure, try IpodBoot or IpodPatcher. But which ipods are you talking about?
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14:13:23	rasher	linuxstb: not any particular one
14:13:47	rasher	Just general curiosity about how exactly they made them "unbrickable"
14:14:36	linuxstb	Disk mode in NOR (or in later ipods, DFU mode in ROM) is the main thing.
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14:19:00	linuxstb	... plus the fact that we insert our bootloader into the main firmware which is just on disk. On other targets, we insert our bootloader into (NOR) flash, meaning a bad bootloader can brick the device.
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14:21:05	amiconn	linuxstb: The coldfire iaudios are also essentially unbrickable
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14:22:10	linuxstb	Thinking about it, the key is where in the boot process we insert our code, and what recovery tools are available before the boot process reaches our (potentially bad) code.
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14:23:33	funman	also how code insertion can affect earlier boot process
14:23:46	amiconn	Yep. On the iaudios our bootloader does reside in the flash rom, but we don't put it there ourselves, but use the cowon loader (which is able to reflash itself) to put it ther
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14:24:10	linuxstb	funman: How could that happen?
14:24:12	amiconn	So if the bootloader is broken, do a hard poweroff, boot with usb inserted, put new bootloader on disk, and reflash
14:24:37	funman	linuxstb: for sansa AMS, a bug in mkamsboot for example
14:25:07	linuxstb	funman: That's not a "safe" target IMO. We modify the main firmware image, and only the main firmware can update iself. (IIRC)
14:25:40	linuxstb	i.e. nothing before the main firmware in the boot process can update the main firmware. (in general, apart from e200v2?)
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14:26:38	funman	depends on how you see it, the tiny asm code we insert is considered safe, and earlier in the boot process than the real rockbox bootloader
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14:30:31	linuxstb	funman: Yes, in effect we've made AMS targets "safe", as a bad bootloader shouldn't prevent the tiny asm code starting the OF. But I still don't understand what you mean by "affect earlier boot process" - later code shouldn't affect something that is run earlier.
14:30:33	funman	what does 'data starv. timeout' mean ?
14:30:43	funman	starvation would mean fifo underrun for me
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14:31:52	funman	linuxstb: see the log for r24772 for an example
14:32:33	funman	not sure if 'starv' means something else than 'starvation' here, and there is a separate bit for 'fifo underrun'
14:32:52	funman	oops it would be overrun, since the fifo is fed by the controller and we have to empty it by reading from it
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14:34:20	funman	any help from english native speakers?
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14:46:31	linuxstb	funman: What's the context?
14:47:17	funman	it's a bit of a status register in the synopsys SD controller
14:47:49	funman	3 consecutive bits of this reg are: 'data read timeout', 'data starv timeout', 'fifo under/overrun'
14:49:18	funman	i got rid of this error though: i was reading from the fifo on 2 conditions: fifo isn't full && there are at least 32bits in the fifo
14:49:30	funman	while it should have been 'fifo isn't empty && there are at least 32 bits in the fifo'
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14:55:16	funman	ah no this error bit is still present on other conditions
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15:17:27	funman	so, is "starvation" the only possible word which would end "starv" ?
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15:18:28	linuxstb	funman: It's the only one I can think of.
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15:18:57	funman	thanks
15:19:27	Bagder	ispell-complete-word offers only variations of that
15:19:54	Bagder	starved,starving etc
15:20:05	funman	that would mean it affects something else than the fifo itself
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15:20:12	funman	perhaps linked to fifo threshold
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15:25:37	kugel	Bagder: we can still use our strcasecmp in case the OS doesn't provide it. but acting as if it was standard C might lead to problems. I would like to not build libc stuff and don't add the headers to the include path so that there's no clash
15:26:07	Bagder	yes, I completely understand
15:26:54	gevaerts	topik: I claim the LED pig bounty!
15:27:40	kugel	if we put strcasecmp into the libc folder, we would require the OS to provide it. if it doesn't we couldn't use strcasecmp because the whole libc folder isn't built
15:29:27	Bagder	well, we could also always use our own version
15:29:40	*	Bagder runs off
15:30:03	kugel	right, but it's easier to use our own if it's not in the libc folder
15:30:32	funman	what is the 'libc folder' ?
15:32:27	kugel	I proposed to move our files which provide libc functions to a separate folder so that it's easier to use the host OS' libc for the sim/raaa
15:33:20	funman	couldn't you check if the OS provide each function?
15:35:02	kugel	I don't think that's needed for plain standard c functions
15:35:04	gevaerts	funman: IIUC that's not really the issue. The question is where we put the things, not how we enable them
15:35:38	S_a_i_n_t	Can a .kbd file be specified by a theme .cfg?
15:36:15	S_a_i_n_t	When you do "Save Theme Settings" in Rockbox, it doesn't save any line for the keyboard, so I guess not.
15:36:32	funman	so what is the problem with strcasecmp, is it locale dependancy ?
15:36:40	domonoky	S_a_i_n_t: thats currently not a allowed theme setting. so the themesite will reject it.
15:36:45	gevaerts	kugel: intuitively I'd like to see things like strcasecmp in libc. I think I prefer a split between "definitely rockbox code" and "(hopefully) provided by the environment"
15:36:52	S_a_i_n_t	Having a theme that can alter the size of the font but not change the .kbd just occured to me as being rather silly.
15:36:56	gevaerts	S_a_i_n_t: why should that belong to the theme?
15:37:23	kugel	gevaerts: but what if the OS doesn't provide it (it seems unlikely, but still)?
15:37:31	S_a_i_n_t	gevaerts: As changing the font can affect the vkeyboard a LOT
15:37:53	gevaerts	S_a_i_n_t: so can changing the language, even more so actually
15:37:58	funman	kugel: we could require posix systems
15:38:14	gevaerts	funman: unrealistic
15:38:29	kugel	funman: why?
15:38:31	funman	or at least the subset which implements strcasecmp()
15:38:54	kugel	it's easier to have strcasecmp not in the libc folder and use it
15:39:06	gevaerts	kugel: is it really?
15:39:10	funman	if it's not standard C, then sure
15:39:28	S_a_i_n_t	domonoky: Hmmm, OK. So the Themesite will reject it, but can I set it in my own theme on the device?
15:39:51	gevaerts	S_a_i_n_t: in your own theme on the device you can set whatever you like
15:39:57	kugel	gevaerts: yes, because the libc folder would be completely ignored when building to use system's libc
15:40:03	domonoky	S_a_i_n_t: sure. a theme config is just a normal .cfg so it can contain any setting.
15:40:21	funman	it's less painful than check each function separately
15:40:36	gevaerts	kugel: sure, if you completely ignore libc/ when building a hosted config. But do you have to completely ignore it?
15:40:38	S_a_i_n_t	Aha, I didn't know what was considered "valid" in a theme .cfg, thanks.
15:41:05	gevaerts	S_a_i_n_t: the code doesn't care
15:41:05	kugel	gevaerts: yes, otherwise the headers clash
15:41:19	kugel	it also saves compilation time
15:41:32	gevaerts	right, headers are an issue
15:42:13	kugel	if I added the include dir just for strcasecmp, then all the other headers in the same folder are preferred over the system's ones as well
15:43:01	gevaerts	kugel: maybe have a look at how http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/libiberty/ does it
15:44:07	funman	FlynDice: ping
15:44:34	FlynDice	funman: pong
15:44:42	gevaerts	kugel: or just use that on OSes that don't have what we need
15:44:48	funman	had you looked already at different values for fifo threshold ?
15:45:15	kugel	gevaerts: which is easier if strcasecmp is not in the libc folder
15:45:35	funman	linux code seems to mean that the initial value of FIFOTH holds the full fifo depth (0x3f << 16), so the threshold should be lower than that (linux use the half). 0x80 for writes would be too high then
15:45:47	funman	I tried using lower values without luck (still FIFO overrun)
15:46:16	gevaerts	kugel: actually, I think it's the reverse then. If you use libiberty, strcasecmp (and hopefully all of the functions in the same group) are provided by "something outside"
15:46:30	funman	did you play already with MCI_FIFOTH ?
15:46:34	FlynDice	funman: Yes I changed them around some to experiment a while ago and had no luck
15:47:04	kugel	gevaerts: oh, you meant libiberty with "that"?
15:47:07	funman	ok, and any luck with PIO ? I always get 3 words remaining from 128 words, perhaps it has to do with threshold
15:47:49	gevaerts	kugel: yes. I think it's worth checking if it (libiberty) has all semi-standard functions we might miss on some OSes, and if it does, just use it on those
15:48:24	kugel	why use another lib just for a single function? that adds unneeded complexity to the build system, IMO
15:48:35	funman	I also get varying results depending if I reload FIFO_COUNT from MCI_STATUS after reading 1 word or not
15:48:41	kugel	all that just to have strcasecmp in the libc folder?
15:48:43	gevaerts	Is it only strcasecmp?
15:48:53	FlynDice	funman: I tried larger and smaller and played with the DMA sizes also with no luck. As far as PIO goes there's a learnin curve going on there but I'm getting closer...
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15:49:35	kugel	maybe strcasestr too, but that's all
15:49:36	funman	what's the current biggest problem you have with it ?
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15:50:08	kugel	no, strcasestr isn't in libiberty
15:50:30	gevaerts	kugel: I don't think it's a terribly important discussion anyway, actually splitting the thing is the important bit. If people don't like the initial solution for those files, they can easily be changed later
15:51:04	kugel	that's my thinking too :)
15:52:47	*	kugel proceeds with the actual work then
15:52:50	funman	FlynDice: ah any idea about MCI_INT_HTO ?
15:52:59	FlynDice	funman: lol "current biggest problem" is the same problem I always have, ie I'm learning on the fly by looking at your code, linux code, and whatever rockbox code seems to be similar.....
15:53:58	*	FlynDice wipes eyes and yawns, still early in this part of the world...
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15:56:05	kugel	meh, what to do about memset16?
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15:57:45	gevaerts	kugel: not in libc/ I think
15:58:06	kugel	it needs a memset16.h then, doesn't it?
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15:58:59	gevaerts	probably
15:59:12	FlynDice	funman: re INT_HTO are you getting this?
15:59:37	gevaerts	kugel: I suspect the rockbox memory.h could be used (but possibly renamed)
15:59:52	funman	FlynDice: yes, i didn't identify the conditions which cause this though
16:00
16:00:10	funman	0x400 / 0x420 => sometimes with INT_RXDR
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16:02:33		Part Boldfilter
16:02:41	FlynDice	I read somewhere in one of the "maybe this is the right document" docs that the card clock could be stopped to prevent data underruns. I don't know if that's supposed to be automatic or if we would have to do it manually?
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16:05:35	funman	unsigned count = (MCI_STATUS << 2) >> 19; /* that would be the number of bytes in the FIFO, looks good ? */
16:06:12	funman	if I make transfers if count >= 0x10 then i see no transfer at all
16:06:33	funman	if I make transfers when using >> 21 (to have the count of words) then I see some transfers
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16:08:01	FlynDice	funman: Yes I beleive that's correct
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16:10:48	funman	hm fifo depth/threshold is in the same units than this count
16:11:27	funman	in bytes
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16:12:36	funman	(according to linux fifo_free)
16:12:44	***	Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
16:12:57	funman	i get down to 12 words remaining to be transfered out of 128 :o
16:13:03	funman	in a total of 5 interrupts
16:14:07	FlynDice	funman: you're doing reads and not writes is that correct?
16:14:13	funman	yes only reads
16:14:23	funman	write will be the second step
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16:14:47	funman	5 interrupts, including a DTO itnerrupt
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16:20:08	funman	so everything has been transmitted by the card but i couldn't read it all
16:21:11	funman	btw in the OF I see different settings: 1 with the setting you use, another one with dma bits = 0, DMA disabled for transfer, and FIFOTH for write = 0x30
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16:23:50	funman	ah I found (again) the PIO loop in OF
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16:24:27	funman	Clipv2 V02.01.16A 0x514C: read loop (r0 = fifo)
16:24:49	funman	write loop: 0x5e18
16:26:38	funman	pio read is a potential response handler for CMD 14 ??
16:27:13		Quit halmi (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
16:27:37	funman	(a "reserved" command)
16:28:15	funman	also for commands 8 (send if cond) and 51 (send scr)
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16:32:30	funman	they loop over 0x40 words == 256 bytes (half a sector)
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16:39:58	funman	FlynDice: any code to share?
16:40:24	funman	INT_HTO seems to happen when FIFOTH is too high
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16:44:10	FlynDice	funman: Nothing pio related. I can give you the code I was using to debug dma writes but it's nothing very interesting....
16:44:24	funman	anything could help
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16:49:09	funman	FlynDice: http://pastie.org/941519 PIO 'working' but not transferring all bytes
16:50:11	FlynDice	funman: as I said, nothing real interesting but this is my last stash for write debug code −−> http://pastie.org/941516
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17:43:00	kugel	should I edit http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/SummerOfCode2010?topic=RockboxAsAnApplication or make my own?
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17:44:53	gevaerts	make your own I'd say
17:47:44	kugel	RockboxAsAnApplication2010?
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17:48:16	gevaerts	sounds goof
17:48:18	gevaerts	*good
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18:00
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18:31:03	kugel	gevaerts: do you want to look over my wiki page before I hit the save button?
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18:32:48	gevaerts	That's up to you I'd say
18:34:26	gevaerts	I'm willing to have a look if you want, but I don't see a real need for me to check it first
18:35:02	skfunnyboy	Hi
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18:44:25	skfunnyboy	Hi
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18:45:12	skfunnyboy	i think i have found a bug in RockBox for sansa fuze v2
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18:56:22	S_a_i_n_t	skfunnyboy: then please, enlightn us.
18:56:42	S_a_i_n_t	*enlighten
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18:59:43	kugel	gevaerts: ok, the wiki page is up
19:00
19:00:15	skfunnyboy	ok
19:01:26	skfunnyboy	when i exit a game in rockboy, i return to the navigator ( or ''Files'' ) and when i want to choose another game...the blue light blink .. (sorry for my bad english .. i will make a video showing the problem soon)
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19:02:51	kugel	skfunnyboy: don't bother
19:02:51	S_a_i_n_t	You have some form of sansa player? I'm not too familiar with the sansa targets...but I'm fairly certain this issue is known.
19:03:02	kugel	yes, it is known
19:03:10	S_a_i_n_t	Ah, there you go. Apparently it is.
19:03:44	S_a_i_n_t	But, thanks anyway.
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19:04:29	skfunnyboy	ok
19:04:39	skfunnyboy	if i found more bugs..i will tell you :P
19:05:24	S_a_i_n_t	Please do.
19:05:48	kugel	please don't
19:06:15	kugel	the fuze v2 is not a target we want bugs report on, it's considered unusable it all aspects
19:06:46	skfunnyboy	i use it on my Sansa Fuze v2 .. .Work almost like a charm!
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19:24:41	RandomInsano	Anyone know if there's special voodoo needed to build a bootloader for Telechips devices? My attempts to get running code are a fruitless as ever.
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19:26:30	RandomInsano	Or getting output from GPIO using telechips.c:main() isn't being done properly... that's always a possibility
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19:34:45	gevaerts	kugel: plain alsa doesn't seem to work on n900. "Playback open error: Device or resource busy"
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19:35:59	kugel	tzz
19:36:45	kugel	thanks for testing
19:37:06	kugel	I'm curious why none of my work wants on your phone :(
19:37:34	gevaerts	It's because you stated in public that you'll work on android first. It doesn't like that
19:38:00	kugel	gevaerts: btw, I followed that guide for the qemu debian thing. the debian installation got stuck at the creation of the root file system
19:38:23	kugel	I see
19:38:40	kugel	can you hug it a bit and tell it I'm sorry?
19:39:31	*	S_a_i_n_t thinks kugel may need to grovel to gevaerts' n900 in person.
19:39:52	S_a_i_n_t	wait 'til DevCon ;)
19:40:52	kugel	gevaerts: does that example work? http://www.alsa-project.org/alsa-doc/alsa-lib/_2test_2pcm_8c-example.html
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19:46:59	gevaerts	kugel: no, same error
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19:49:51	rbert	whois rbert
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19:56:05	kugel	strange error: http://pastie.org/941677
19:56:33	kugel	it happens when I include my system's stdlib.h instead of our own
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20:31:13	kugel	I don't get it. stdlib includes sys/types.h for int32_t, but placing an #error in sys/types.h doesn't give an error :/
20:32:11	kugel	oh, we have our own types.h :\
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20:40:56	kugel	eh, our fdprintf is different to the standard's one
20:42:11	kugel	oh, nevermind, there's no fdprintf
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20:59:23	saratoga	kugel: i found a site with debian (or maybe ubuntu i forget) QEMU arm images a while back
21:00
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21:08:31	kugel	wow, the libc6 folder thing it's more work that I expected
21:08:35	kugel	s/it//
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21:11:57	kugel	pamaury: ah, I solved how the sim gets fprintf
21:12:06	kugel	I think
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21:32:40	saratoga	when do we feature freeze for 3.6?
21:35:26	saratoga	i guess 2 weeks from today if we're going to hit the scheduled day to release
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21:37:06	*	kugel cries at "unsigned int32_t"
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21:38:59	wodz	hahaha. I'am reading rockchip 27xx programing manual and there is "Decoder remap function. Write value 0xdeadbeef to this register to start remap function" :-)
21:39:16	saratoga	ha
21:39:28	saratoga	this is the player with the arm7e core?
21:39:31		Quit piepiepie (Client Quit)
21:39:34	wodz	yes
21:39:47		Quit Xerion (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
21:40:30	saratoga	such a weird core
21:40:57	wodz	I started wiki page about this platform : http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/Rockchip27xx
21:41:09	wodz	why weird?
21:41:19	wodz	core like a core
21:42:16	wodz	DSP included is weird - something between DSP and RISC processor
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21:46:24	wodz	the engineers designing this SoC had specific sense of humor: "If write “ 0xdeedbabe” will power down ARM7 clock"
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21:48:56	saratoga	weird because its a 3 stage arm7 pipeline with DSP extensions and armv5 support
21:49:09	saratoga	even a lot of newer and faster arm9 cores don't even have that
21:50:10	kugel	doesn't understand "apps/codecs/lib/codeclib.h:64: error: expected identifier or ‘(’ before ‘__extension__’" :(
21:50:59		Quit M3DLG (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
21:51:15	wodz	3 stage? ARM technical reference manual states it is 5 or 6 stage pipeline (depends if Jazzele mode is on)
21:51:50	kugel	saratoga: it's not a usual arm7
21:52:01	kugel	I never heard of arm7ej-s actually
21:52:09	saratoga	wodz: i've seen those floating around, the ones that show the arm9e pipeline right?
21:52:45	saratoga	i think thats a typo, the website and most other things i've found say its 3 stage: http://www.arm.com/products/processors/classic/arm7/arm7ej-s.php
21:52:58	wodz	http://infocenter.arm.com/help/topic/com.arm.doc.ddi0214b/DDI0214.boom.pdf
21:53:08	wodz	it states 5 or 6 stage
21:53:10	saratoga	yeah i have that copy, but thats the arm9e pipeline
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21:54:11	kugel	it's basically an arm9ej-s with a 3-stage pipeline?
21:54:48	saratoga	"ARM7EJ-S Bringing Java and DSP acceleration to low-cost 32-bit designs Integer core with three-stage pipeline"
21:54:57	saratoga	apparently the arm people have no idea what they have
21:55:18	saratoga	kugel: yeah, or probably more the arm7 pipeline with the 'E' multiplier
21:55:26	wodz	I am by no means ARM expert
21:55:44	saratoga	wodz: well do you trust the datasheet or the website more :)
21:55:50	kugel	well, it's armv5 which has a number of other improvements over the armv4 of arm7tdmi
21:56:21	saratoga	most of them are part of the 'E' multiplier though
21:57:09	kugel	caches and mmu also
21:58:42	wodz	What is AHB interface?
21:59:21	saratoga	"A five-stage ARM state pipeline is used, consisting of Fetch, Decode, Execute, Memory, and Writeback stages. This is shown in Figure 1.1."
21:59:30	saratoga	they really don't seem to know whats in the arm7ej . . .
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21:59:49	saratoga	isn't the ahb the bus used for various arm perphierals
22:00
22:00:37	wodz	I suppose (from the context)
22:02:47	saratoga	on AMS devices, the ahb connects things like the DMA controller and memory controller to the CPU
22:03:07	saratoga	ah "advanced high speed bus"
22:03:54	saratoga	32 bit, 64 MHz (on AMS anyway)
22:06:25	wodz	up to 133MHz on rt27xx
22:06:39	wodz	but bus width is not stated
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22:12:52	***	Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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22:20:43	kugel	Torne: ping
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22:25:44	kugel	ahhhhh
22:26:04	kugel	sdl slips -D_GNU_SOURCE=1 in, which is bad
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22:32:47	CIA-5	New commit by alle (r25768): Small correction of the translation of a musical term
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23:05:37	kugel	should I make a single header file for strlcpy, strlcat, strcasecmp and strcasestr or one for each?
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23:25:01	Moguta	Sorry for the 'n00b' quest, but are there any still-sold MP3 players that Rockbox is supported on?
23:26:02	Moguta	Looking through the supported models and Googling them, I don't seem to see any still in retail.
23:26:07	Kohlrabi	clip
23:26:30	krazykit	the e200v2 is still being sold, i think
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23:31:23	Moguta	The e200 doesn't seem to be.
23:31:52	Moguta	Is the Clip really all?
23:33:56	RandomInsano	I think the chief problem is reverse engeneering takes time, probably longer than any product lifecycle
23:34:39	RandomInsano	The sansa clip is an awesome player for the money though. Sister has one.
23:34:57	RandomInsano	Won't let me put rockbox on it :P
23:35:13	FlynDice	Moguta: I believe you can still buy clipv2, clip+ and fuzev2 presently. None of these targets are "stable" though as you can see on the front page. They are all categorized as "unusable" which you can also find on the front page....
23:36:48		Quit DerPapst (Quit: Leaving.)
23:37:39	gevaerts	kugel: I think a single one is fine
23:37:42		Quit JohannesSM64 (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
23:38:26	kugel	I thought so too but I lack a good name :)
23:38:30		Quit domonoky (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
23:39:10	kugel	this patch is getting really huge
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23:42:30	gevaerts	string-extra.h?
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23:51:30	kugel	154 files changed, 255 insertions(+), 474 deletions(-) :(
23:53:25		Quit Schmogel (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org)
23:53:26	*	gevaerts recommends to try to get that one committed soon
23:55:38	Strife89	kugel: I'm curious, what patch? (I don't see it in my logs.)
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