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01:08:09 | JdGordon | morning |
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01:25:22 | mc2739 | JdGordon: pong |
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01:58:05 | mal | i want install gentoo on my ipod 30gb like usb-hdd and i dont want lose any data, anybody have had expirience? |
01:58:31 | literal | that's not really a rockbox question |
01:59:31 | literal | more like #ipodlinux |
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02:26:30 | JdGordon| | mc2739: I was hoping one of last nights channge would fix your crash bug |
02:26:39 | JdGordon| | but I misrememebered the bug and it probably wont |
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02:32:25 | mc2739 | JdGordon|: freddyb posted a patch that seems to fix it |
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02:48:24 | JdGordon| | mc2739: oh? where? |
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03:14:56 | mc2739 | JdGordon|: FS #11524 |
03:16:23 | JdGordon| | hmm, yeah that masks the issue... I'll try a better one tonight if I get a chance |
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08:30:49 | * | bertrik found the memory leak in the vorbis codec |
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08:32:38 | bertrik | it's in block.c, where it first tries to allocate the "first_pcm" buffer from iram, which fails, so it then allocaties it from the general malloc pool, but never frees that buffer |
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09:42:44 | ferret_0567 | has anybody tried to reverse engineer the ipod nano 3g yet? |
09:50:10 | wodz | there are some attempts AFAIK |
09:50:38 | wodz | TheSeven is good source of information |
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10:17:59 | u42p | hi, i ran the http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/CodecPerformanceComparison on a sansa clip+ with svn r27770, could someone add the table to the wiki? http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=mwj72hPj |
10:19:49 | u42p | it looks kinda weird, but thats what the perl script gave me :) |
10:20:19 | u42p | hm, index.html snuck in there |
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10:46:22 | CIA-9 | New commit by nls (r27771): Delete useless #ifndef #endif pair. |
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10:48:25 | CIA-9 | r27771 build result: All green |
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11:11:45 | CIA-9 | New commit by nls (r27772): Mark some local variables with 'static'. |
11:13:36 | CIA-9 | r27772 build result: All green |
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13:26:00 | preetyboyswag | hey people i need a quick answer i gonna take back my mp3 player today , is there any mp3 player that i can buy that support rockbox ? |
13:26:09 | preetyboyswag | i mean the sensa ones are they still on sale |
13:26:37 | preetyboyswag | s ansa sorry |
13:29:28 | u42p | sansa clip+ is great with rockbox |
13:29:35 | u42p | and a 16gb sd card :) |
13:29:39 | u42p | i wish i had 32 |
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13:31:20 | Stummi | somebody with a sansa fuze 2 here? Is there a way to get the songs which are there on default? They seem to be somewhere on the filesystem, but are not visible on pc. (Maybe a special filesystem-hack?) |
13:32:00 | preetyboyswag | thx u42p i am from germany and i going look out if i can find some good rockbox mp3 player |
13:33:06 | u42p | preetyboyswag: http://geizhals.at/deutschland/?o=39&fs=sansa+clip&in= |
13:33:41 | u42p | i would get 2 or 4 gb and a mini sd card |
13:33:59 | preetyboyswag | i try to get sansa fuze today |
13:35:46 | Stummi | preetyboyswag, sansa fuze is good. But usb isn't supportet yet |
13:37:54 | preetyboyswag | @Stummi i talked to saturn already they wont take my philips back becouse i lose the bong for the rechange -.- |
13:38:14 | preetyboyswag | well done now i need to wait or try to sell it well cya later guys |
13:38:47 | Stummi | preetyboyswag, which model exactly is that? |
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13:47:18 | pixelma | Stummi: you mean the ones copied over in MTP mode? |
13:48:12 | Stummi | pixelma, no, there a just some songs on the sanza fuse when you buy it |
13:49:25 | Stummi | and i mean this songs |
13:49:28 | pixelma | well, if it is similar to the Sansa c200 then the few songs that came with it were copied over (by Sandisk) in MTP mode... |
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13:50:05 | Stummi | hm |
13:52:05 | pixelma | unfortunately I don't know the file structure of the Fuze, but on the c200 I could find them in a SYSTEM subfolder as ".dat" files. I read somewhere that the Fuze OF creates other folders which are hidden differently, maybe you can find something about it in the forums - or if you have access to WMP try to get them off in MTP mode |
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14:08:26 | JdGordon | kugel: glad to see you've changed your mind. Are you liking the idea of downloading on first install? I'm not sure what to make of your email |
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14:20:04 | kugel | JdGordon: well, that's the only way to avoid 20MB apks, isn't it? |
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14:20:31 | JdGordon | 20MB is extreme, and on froyo we can install to sdcard, but yes |
14:21:08 | JdGordon | any objections then to me cleaning up that patch and getting it commited so we can add android to the build system? |
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14:21:43 | kugel | there's more needed for this in the build system, isn't it? |
14:22:14 | JdGordon | nope. configure and make zip need a tiny bit of fiddling, and build clients need the NDK |
14:22:14 | JdGordon | nothing else |
14:22:42 | kugel | what do you want to build with the build system? |
14:22:51 | JdGordon | rockbox.zip |
14:23:05 | JdGordon | I mean get it in the usual builds |
14:23:06 | kugel | you can't simply only build rockbox, you need the complete apk |
14:23:08 | JdGordon | +with |
14:23:31 | JdGordon | if we go with my idea/patch the apk is seperate |
14:23:43 | kugel | what about the java parts? |
14:24:07 | JdGordon | yes, they would be built when needed |
14:24:11 | JdGordon | not automatically thogh |
14:24:30 | JdGordon | they could be, but that would be extra work |
14:24:31 | kugel | I think we should build the complete package |
14:24:52 | JdGordon | the complete package is *what* though? |
14:25:00 | kugel | the .apk |
14:25:21 | JdGordon | some images, the java wrapper and enough code to download the rockbox.zip |
14:25:29 | JdGordon | i.e 90% static |
14:25:58 | kugel | I don't think we're in a state where it's almost completely static yet |
14:26:04 | JdGordon | there is no actual need to build it frequently |
14:26:13 | kugel | and even then, it's 100% required for rockbox being functional |
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14:27:35 | JdGordon | I understand that. What I'm saying is we start building rockbox.zip now, and we/someone builds a apk which works with the nightly. people who want to test can manually install that untill we decide it is ready for the market |
14:27:53 | JdGordon | exactly like how new ports are built almost as soon as it compiles fully anyway |
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14:28:57 | kugel | why are you pushing this? |
14:29:48 | JdGordon | hu? |
14:30:31 | JdGordon | because I want it to be working from the beginning, and I've mostly finished the patch anyway |
14:31:17 | JdGordon | imo the port is on par with other targets now. especially the d2 |
14:32:39 | kugel | but it has individual problems like any other port, we don't need to get something out within a day (your mail isn't even a day old) |
14:33:13 | JdGordon | I'm not saying anything about building the apk yet |
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14:37:32 | kugel | I think we should discuss more about this stuff and get more opinions |
14:37:41 | kugel | we're not in a hurry anyway |
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14:47:58 | kugel | I think it could be worthwhile to examine what's needed to make rockbox screen resolution independant (I actually don't think it's that much). that we could ship a single librockbox.so for all devices, and only need to download the themes |
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14:57:20 | Zagor | kugel: research is always good |
14:57:30 | Zagor | (meaning: go for it) |
15:00 |
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15:20:11 | JdGordon | the lcd size problem only fixes one issue I have with the apk |
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15:21:29 | kugel | the other is? |
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15:22:24 | JdGordon | not being able to load any build you want (given that the build is compatable with the java wrapper) |
15:22:53 | kugel | but you can install any apk you want? |
15:23:01 | kugel | where's the difference? |
15:23:21 | JdGordon | buidling the apk is a massive PITA |
15:23:33 | kugel | not really |
15:24:04 | kugel | I find it much more convinient actually to run the apk than to put something on the microsd when using eclipse |
15:24:23 | JdGordon | much more than just building the zip |
15:24:30 | kugel | and once there's a script for doing it in the command line you don't even need eclipse |
15:24:47 | JdGordon | you do need the sdk though |
15:25:00 | JdGordon | which is more than just the sdk download |
15:25:06 | kugel | so? |
15:25:26 | JdGordon | so why should we make it harder than needed? |
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15:25:56 | JdGordon | why the hell shuold I be forced to rebuild java to run my own build when it changes nothing on that wrapper level |
15:26:13 | kugel | because that's the way it works on android |
15:26:19 | JdGordon | thats bloody stupid |
15:26:56 | JdGordon | If I want to try someone elses build I have to install their apk? and if they named it the same I have to uninstall the official apk |
15:27:23 | JdGordon | thats just moronic when the answer is so simple |
15:27:26 | kugel | exactly like on daps |
15:27:32 | JdGordon | not at all |
15:27:50 | JdGordon | you dont need to install a new bootloader on the ipod to load somoenes build |
15:28:00 | JdGordon | you do need to download their rockbox.zip though |
15:28:08 | kugel | and overwrite the official one |
15:28:12 | LambdaCalculus37 | kugel: Any new updated apks I can try out on my Magic? |
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15:29:12 | JdGordon | ARG! I shouldnt need to load a new apk to try out someones rockbox.zip (someones could be the svn build here) |
15:29:28 | kugel | why? |
15:29:36 | JdGordon | because thats just stupid |
15:29:45 | kugel | that's the only way to make sure the java stuff fits to the rockbox binary |
15:29:55 | JdGordon | no it isnt |
15:30:20 | JdGordon | we could easily version the .so |
15:31:17 | kugel | LambdaCalculus37: I can make you one if you like |
15:31:51 | JdGordon | I'm surprised having to do builds for everyone isnt enough for you to see why the current system is stupid |
15:31:56 | LambdaCalculus37 | kugel: Sure. :) |
15:32:36 | kugel | JdGordon: I'm not proposing to keep the "current system" (there's no current system) |
15:32:44 | LambdaCalculus37 | JdGordon: But is it worse than, say, building for webOS or iOS? |
15:33:11 | JdGordon | LambdaCalculus37: how do you mean? |
15:33:17 | JdGordon | kugel: your apks is the current system |
15:33:29 | kugel | but that's no system |
15:33:45 | JdGordon | exactly! |
15:34:08 | JdGordon | you're arguing against a system which makes sense and can be implemented *now* |
15:34:21 | * | kugel stops discussing with JdGordon for now |
15:34:58 | LinusN | from a user perspective, the only sane system is to have rockbox in a single apk that is updated via market |
15:35:16 | LambdaCalculus37 | JdGordon: From what experience I gained from tinkering with iPhone development, Rockbox on the iPhone may be much harder to do. |
15:35:32 | JdGordon | *ONLY* if the user wants to stick with builds which we push |
15:35:48 | LinusN | JdGordon: yes, a user |
15:36:28 | * | LambdaCalculus37 has no idea about how webOS apps are done, and if Rockbox is easy to port to it |
15:36:49 | JdGordon | yes fine, but what abuot us who can build our own? you are still forcing us to either use sanctioned apks (either always pushed or from the rockbox site) or build our own apk |
15:37:07 | Zagor | JdGordon: devs will always build their own |
15:37:11 | LinusN | users are used to sticking with what the developer pushes at them |
15:38:04 | JdGordon | Zagor: not if I have to piss around with building the apk and installing that when all I really should need to do is just make && make zip in my android folder like I do with my ipod |
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15:38:24 | JdGordon | I'm not asking for earth shattering ideas... just to be able to load the zip if it is there |
15:38:32 | JdGordon | 99% of users wont care about this feature |
15:38:39 | JdGordon | the rest will love it |
15:38:47 | Zagor | exactly. so we shouldn't force it onto those 99% |
15:38:53 | * | kugel is also a bit worried about loading executable code from the sdcard because it's a bit of a security hole |
15:38:55 | JdGordon | we arnt forcing anything |
15:39:29 | kugel | LambdaCalculus37: www.alice-dsl.net/simonemartitz/rockbox/Rockbox.apk |
15:39:36 | Zagor | JdGordon: what's wrong with make && make apk? |
15:39:40 | JdGordon | Zagor: my patch sees /sdcard/rockbox/rockbox.zip is newer than the installed version, it asks "An updated rockbo has been detected, install it"? |
15:40:56 | JdGordon | Zagor: because its then make && make apk && push to the phone && install it && launch instead of make && make zip && cp rockbox.zip /sdcard |
15:41:13 | JdGordon | subtle but big difference |
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15:41:24 | JdGordon | and you dont lose the official updates when they are pushed |
15:41:28 | kugel | make && make apk && adb install -r rockbox.apk is dead simple |
15:42:12 | JdGordon | I dont want to have to have the sdk installed on my computer |
15:42:30 | JdGordon | s/I/people/ |
15:42:42 | JdGordon | you are over complicatoing the whole thing |
15:42:48 | Zagor | I don't think it's reasonable to support android building without the android sdk |
15:42:49 | LinusN | JdGordon: if you plan to develop for android, you need the apk |
15:42:50 | JdGordon | for absolutly no benefit |
15:43:05 | LinusN | sdk |
15:43:31 | Zagor | JdGordon: I'd say it's you who is overcomplicating things, by creating a special workaround for android |
15:43:40 | JdGordon | LinusN: the apk for all intents and purposes is 100% static. it is just a simple wrapper which loads the rockbox binary. Why does that need to be reinstalled every time I want to update just the binary (unless of course the wrapper needs updating) |
15:44:00 | Zagor | how much time does it take to build the extra apk stuff anyway? |
15:44:19 | kugel | a few seconds |
15:44:27 | Zagor | so the only issue is "I don |
15:44:28 | kugel | on my slow laptop :) |
15:44:31 | Zagor | 't want to download the sdk"? |
15:44:33 | JdGordon | it requires a working sdk + downloaded android system + thats not the point |
15:44:40 | LinusN | JdGordon: i still don't get it, why is updating the apk such a pain? |
15:44:43 | Zagor | JdGordon: what *is* the point? |
15:45:05 | kugel | LinusN: actually, updating the apk is the most convinient way to go |
15:45:17 | LinusN | kugel: i would think so too |
15:45:32 | kugel | because putting stuff on the sdcard means you need to mount it on the pc, copy over, unmount again and remount on the phone |
15:45:47 | kugel | while updating the apk is a single adb command |
15:46:03 | JdGordon | adp push rockbox.zip /sdcard/rockbox |
15:46:04 | JdGordon | thats one command also |
15:46:15 | kugel | if you got the sdk yes :) |
15:46:21 | kugel | but you don't want that |
15:46:22 | LinusN | :-) |
15:46:58 | JdGordon | ok, so you want the apk to be a full install right? |
15:47:03 | JdGordon | that means it must include the fonts also |
15:47:17 | LambdaCalculus37 | kugel: Thanks! |
15:47:17 | JdGordon | wasted XMB every single download and install |
15:47:22 | JdGordon | stupid stupid stupid |
15:47:34 | Zagor | xmb? |
15:47:54 | LinusN | JdGordon: download via wifi then |
15:48:16 | JdGordon | 4MB |
15:48:27 | LinusN | this is the android world, people are used to apk's and using wifi for downloading large apps |
15:48:49 | JdGordon | those people wont ever use the feature and wont care either way |
15:49:05 | LinusN | exactly |
15:49:18 | JdGordon | exactly.. so why all the angst against adding it? |
15:49:39 | JdGordon | it wont affect you AT ALL if you dont use it |
15:50:11 | JdGordon | and it makes the build system simpler |
15:50:18 | Zagor | why do we need two install methods? one official and one hack? |
15:50:38 | Zagor | just because you don't like the sdk? |
15:51:02 | JdGordon | this is EXACTLY the same as using RButil to do the initial install and then downloading the svn builds onto your ipod |
15:51:18 | Zagor | no. the svn builds will be apk files. |
15:51:20 | kugel | rbutil could be the third :) |
15:51:25 | JdGordon | when we want to force users to update we push a new apk to the market |
15:51:55 | JdGordon | otherwise 99% of users will never update, the other 1% will have no problem downloading a zip |
15:52:13 | Zagor | why would they never update? |
15:52:15 | JdGordon | if we have to maually install an apk we lose the market l;inking which means we dont get forced updates |
15:52:17 | kugel | and yours is a hack in that regard that the java wrappers might get incompatible at any time, and then you do need a new apk no matter how you turn it |
15:52:41 | JdGordon | Zagor: not untill a new apk is pushed |
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15:52:52 | JdGordon | kugel: thats nonesense. we can EASILY version the wrapper |
15:53:02 | kugel | that doesn't make rockbox run |
15:53:09 | Zagor | JdGordon: why would we want users to update to any other version than we push to Market? |
15:53:12 | kugel | it just makes it fail with more sanety |
15:53:27 | JdGordon | Zagor: for the same reason we do svn builds for every target |
15:53:39 | JdGordon | kugel: ok, we version the zip |
15:53:44 | Zagor | JdGordon: those are for devs |
15:53:51 | kugel | that's already too much hassle IMO |
15:53:54 | JdGordon | you're tyring to bring in a stupid pointless nonesenss arguement for which there are a hundred answer |
15:53:59 | Zagor | actually, they are mostly to check the build result |
15:54:15 | JdGordon | Zagor: so? we should make it harder for us? |
15:54:16 | kugel | another version number to take care of... |
15:54:19 | kugel | no, thanks |
15:54:37 | kugel | the apk way is simpler, really |
15:54:56 | Zagor | JdGordon: I don't agree that it is any harder to run "make apk-install" or whatever than to mount/copy/unmount/install |
15:58:14 | JdGordon | ha, no it isnt! go download an apk and try to install it on your phone. it forces you into the market app and then 3 more presses before it gets installed |
15:58:28 | JdGordon | thats assuming the key is the same and you dont have to uninstall the old one also |
15:58:45 | Zagor | "adb install -r rockbox.apk" does that? |
15:59:14 | JdGordon | and if someone uses the svn builds they will just have an apk and no sdk installed |
15:59:59 | Zagor | who do you expect to be shocked and dissappointed that we supply our android builds as apk files? |
16:00 |
16:00:20 | JdGordon | noone, I'm saying producing apks for this is stupid |
16:00:45 | Zagor | yes, you keep saying that. and I keep asking what specifically is so stupid. |
16:02:38 | kugel | I think it's sane to require the sdk if anyone wants to make rockbox-android development |
16:02:47 | kugel | btw, the ndk requires the sdk |
16:03:37 | JdGordon | no it doesnt |
16:04:22 | kugel | "It is designed for use only in conjunction with the Android SDK, so if you have not already installed the latest Android SDK, please do so before downloading the NDK." |
16:04:41 | JdGordon | that doesnt mean it wont compile if it isnt installed |
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16:06:40 | JdGordon | and people doing their own builds arnt the only people who use them |
16:07:07 | kugel | they can distribute apks just fine, even on the market |
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16:07:54 | JdGordon | great, so flood the market with multiple unoffical rockbox builds... yay support nightmare |
16:08:00 | sko | take a look at the system requirements of the ndk: "A comlete Android SDK installation (with all dependencies) is required." |
16:08:34 | kugel | we don't support unofficial builds anyway |
16:08:44 | JdGordon | users wont know the difference |
16:08:45 | kugel | and I don't care if they floot the market or our forums, really |
16:08:54 | kugel | that has never been a problem so far |
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16:09:58 | kugel | I think we'll have a lot more support problems if we distribute rockbox.zips that are incompatible with the already installed java wrappers |
16:10:16 | kugel | and no, versioning the .so or the .zip is not worth it |
16:10:30 | JdGordon | you are wrong |
16:11:04 | JdGordon | versioning the .so takes about 3 lines of c and 5 in java to make the call and display an error if it isnt compatable |
16:11:11 | JdGordon | and whent hat happens, oh my, we push a new apk |
16:11:29 | Zagor | JdGordon: again, what is the advantage? |
16:11:36 | kugel | that's more complicated than shipping the apk in the first place |
16:12:23 | JdGordon | Zagor: I've outlined them in here and the email. obviously you dont see them as advantages and you wont be able to be convinced |
16:13:45 | JdGordon | one that might have gone unnoticed is that you dont need to rework the build system to make it work with apks |
16:14:09 | kugel | except we don't need to rework it |
16:14:11 | Zagor | we still want to add apk building to the build system |
16:14:36 | JdGordon | not really |
16:14:56 | Zagor | why wouldn't we? |
16:15:24 | JdGordon | because it would only need to be rebuilt when the java changes, and that person can easily rebuild the apk |
16:15:34 | JdGordon | no different to how bootloaders are released |
16:15:47 | Zagor | umm, our build system does bootloaders |
16:15:51 | JdGordon | or we do a release, again, one exra steo in the release checklist |
16:16:14 | JdGordon | I meant the uploading part |
16:16:51 | Zagor | well sure, we don't want anyone to upload official rockbox builds to Market |
16:17:00 | kugel | that apk step is needed in the release checklist no matter of your suggestion |
16:17:01 | Zagor | *just anyway |
16:17:11 | Zagor | *anyone :) |
16:17:29 | Zagor | I still want "make apk" to work |
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16:18:17 | JdGordon | regular users will only use the release builds (3.6, 3.7, etc). they will be pushed as normal to the market.... my suggestion doesnt change that |
16:18:45 | JdGordon | All im saying is that apk can then load a regular zip so noone else needs to stuff around with apks |
16:18:53 | JdGordon | most users wont know or care about that |
16:19:13 | JdGordon | those that use the svn builds might find that a nice feature |
16:19:27 | kugel | the java wrapper may break at any time. I want not only the problems with incompatibilities when installing but I also want the build system to catch compilation failure if it happens |
16:19:27 | Zagor | I would claim most users much rather would grab their daily rockbox build from market than download a zip and fiddle with disk mounting and copying |
16:19:30 | JdGordon | there is no reason to not do that |
16:19:57 | JdGordon | kugel: im ignoring that argument, it is stupidly simple to work around |
16:20:13 | JdGordon | Zagor: And then they would be annoyed every single day with an update request |
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16:20:42 | kugel | they only get the notification once, if they don't chose to update it won't annoy anymore |
16:20:49 | JdGordon | we could do that also |
16:20:51 | Zagor | JdGordon: you say annoyed, I say "notified". if they install the daily build rockbox, they expect to get a daily build |
16:21:13 | JdGordon | I dont want a notification every day that a new build is ready |
16:21:21 | JdGordon | I'm positive I'm not alone there |
16:21:30 | Zagor | then disable the auto notification |
16:21:33 | kugel | then don't install from the market |
16:21:37 | kugel | or that |
16:21:38 | Zagor | or that |
16:21:40 | kugel | :D |
16:21:40 | Zagor | :) |
16:22:33 | JdGordon | bugger it, im doing my own thing for android then. |
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16:23:00 | Zagor | JdGordon: I seriously don't understand why this is so important to you |
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16:23:14 | JdGordon | you both havn given a single reason why the idea is bad |
16:23:16 | JdGordon | ditto to you |
16:24:07 | Zagor | there is a standard method to handle upgrades in android. I propose we use that, to avoid confusing people and adding extra code. |
16:24:44 | JdGordon | and the people that care abouit that wont ever know about or use this feature so thats a moot point |
16:25:09 | gevaerts | If you package an application, you need *very* good reasons to bypass the standard methods associated with the package format you use |
16:25:23 | kugel | it would probably most confusing if they come to our website and find that we handle current build installations *completely* different |
16:25:26 | evilnick_B | It wouldn't be bypassing them, it's an alternate way to update |
16:25:36 | Zagor | JdGordon: so we should add this duplicated upgrade method just because you think it's nicer? |
16:25:55 | kugel | because he doesn't like to install the sdk |
16:26:02 | JdGordon | we dont add any code to to android apk updates at all so no it wouldnt be duplicate code |
16:26:16 | JdGordon | it *is* nicer |
16:26:20 | Zagor | JdGordon: duplicated functionality |
16:26:30 | JdGordon | and kugel you're a twat when you want to be.... |
16:26:40 | gevaerts | Also, the java bits don't change *today*, but as soon as the first native widget gets in... |
16:27:08 | JdGordon | Zagor: 3 lines of java code. the unzip code is alll there in svn now |
16:28:37 | JdGordon | gevaerts: the java bits are more likely to change *today* than later.. and I've already said it is simple to version the binary so it cant load incompatable builds |
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16:29:08 | JdGordon | and it would make it easier for others to make new apps which hook into the java to provide widgets or whatever if it was seperate |
16:29:26 | * | kugel fails to see the advantage of "versioning zips so it won't work if it can't work" over "ship apks that always work without need for a versioning system" |
16:29:46 | JdGordon | good for you |
16:30:00 | JdGordon | its called having a closed mind |
16:30:17 | gevaerts | What is? Your attitude? |
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16:30:59 | kugel | no need to insult now |
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16:36:24 | LambdaCalculus37 | Now that Rockbox works on touchscreen targets, shouldn't we consider creating a proper touchscreen interface for those targets? |
16:36:39 | Zagor | LambdaCalculus37: I think so too |
16:36:50 | Zagor | but it's a pretty big task |
16:36:57 | kugel | I think a lot of people have considered it :) |
16:37:00 | LambdaCalculus37 | Zagor: Indeed. |
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16:38:12 | LambdaCalculus37 | Zagor: The UI we have now is great for non-touchscreen targets, but an icon-based UI for my Android phone would be dandy. |
16:38:28 | Zagor | start drawing :) |
16:38:57 | * | LambdaCalculus37 brings forth the grimoire :) |
16:39:44 | LambdaCalculus37 | I can make a very crude mockup. |
16:40:04 | kugel | amiconn: rockbox will function without sdcard, but it won't be able to save settings etc |
16:40:20 | amiconn | Why is that? |
16:40:22 | kugel | the alternative is having no access to config.cfg |
16:40:32 | amiconn | Do android devices not have some fat(32) formatted internal storage? |
16:40:34 | kugel | (no user access) |
16:40:47 | kugel | no |
16:40:59 | amiconn | How does rockbox access music stored internally? |
16:41:27 | kugel | they have yaffs or something for internal storage, and apps have almost no access to it (if not rooted anyway) |
16:41:53 | kugel | there's only a little folder in your apps dir which you cannot reach with a file browser or when connected to the pc |
16:42:24 | kugel | amiconn: with a file browser, if apps have permissions to open that folder |
16:42:55 | amiconn | Hmm, raa uses native file system access, correct? |
16:42:58 | amiconn | +a |
16:43:05 | kugel | yes |
16:43:15 | * | amiconn thinks raaa on n900 will be easier |
16:43:44 | kugel | it will be the same as the sdl app I guess, which has similar "problems" |
16:43:53 | kugel | but there you have $HOME, not /sdcard |
16:45:32 | LinusN | i think much of the current rockbox UI has to go, in favor of standard android menus |
16:46:07 | Zagor | LinusN: are there really "standard android menus"? it seems to me most apps have different menus |
16:46:47 | Zagor | or is the homescreen settings menu the native model? |
16:47:01 | LinusN | i believe so |
16:47:21 | sko | there is a design guideline at developer.android.com |
16:47:43 | LinusN | i mean, i would use rockbox on android mostly for the nice playback features |
16:48:10 | Zagor | those menus look like they match our needs pretty well |
16:48:39 | Zagor | but I assume that means more mixed native/java code? |
16:48:49 | LinusN | i'm sure |
16:48:59 | LambdaCalculus37 | Probably so. |
16:49:21 | sko | here it is: http://developer.android.com/guide/practices/ui_guidelines/index.html |
16:49:26 | LinusN | also, most of the plugins are pretty useless as well |
16:50:10 | kugel | 1 reason RaaA has no plugins yet :) |
16:50:15 | LinusN | :-) |
16:50:47 | LinusN | raaa is more of a Media Player, so most of the "operating system" stuff is simply not needed |
16:51:12 | sko | well... a native ui would solve the "different screen sizes"-problem |
16:51:48 | rasher | except for the wps |
16:51:55 | sko | right |
16:52:36 | kugel | I actually think trying to replace rockbox widgets with native ones is a neverending job |
16:53:18 | kugel | It would probably be more easier to fork out the playback stuff and build a dedicated app around it |
16:53:31 | LinusN | my approach would be to rip out the core stuff (playback, dsp, codecs and wps) and reimplement the gui |
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16:53:40 | LinusN | kugel: :-) |
16:53:45 | Zagor | it's pretty much unavoidable since they code would diverge so much anyway |
16:54:26 | rasher | More librockbox? |
16:54:33 | kugel | and I say fork because I personally don't really want to miss the theming possibilities, and I find the current touchscreen navigation works well enough |
16:55:19 | kugel | (absoute mode enabled of course) |
16:55:20 | Zagor | rasher: sure sounds like it |
16:56:12 | kugel | LinusN: I don't think you could keep the wps :( |
16:56:13 | | Quit markun (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
16:56:34 | LinusN | kugel: perhaps not in its current form |
16:57:08 | Zagor | why not? wps files are already resolution specific |
16:57:53 | kugel | I mean the skin engine and its drawing mainly, not the .wps files |
16:58:28 | TheSeven | well, audio-related plugins (like fft) would actually make sense even on raaa |
16:58:32 | Zagor | still, the wps is just a canvas that we draw to. why wouldn't that work on android? |
16:59:05 | Zagor | not the non-wps theming, of course |
16:59:35 | kugel | the plan was to reimplement the ui in java, wasn't it? :) |
16:59:40 | sko | hmm... as its possible to port rb to different platforms through raaa a separation of logic and ui would be useful? (don't know if its possible at all) |
17:00 |
17:00:04 | kugel | but it may be possible, you're right |
17:00:36 | Zagor | sko: separation of logic and ui might be complex. separation of ui and playback is more feasible. |
17:02:07 | | Part LinusN |
17:04:25 | kugel | Zagor: I think that once you see it nice works when you have a proper cabbie port, then you'll realize that it's not worth the effort :) |
17:05:34 | kugel | I already like rockbox more because I have more controls from the wps compared to the intergrated media player, allowing me to change songs or playback related settings more quickly |
17:06:06 | Zagor | kugel: of course, but that doesn't go away with a proper touchscreen ui |
17:06:39 | kugel | depends on what you mean with proper touchscreen ui |
17:06:50 | kugel | if it means native widgets I'm not so sure |
17:07:48 | Zagor | well, having to memorize which unmarked area of the screen does what is a pretty crappy user interface |
17:08:03 | kugel | that's what I mean with proper cabbie port |
17:08:28 | kugel | the 320x480 one has pretty obvious touch regions which you can touch directly (no grid mode9 |
17:08:29 | Zagor | well the problem is everywhere, not just in the wps |
17:09:33 | | Part Zagor |
17:09:50 | kugel | I'd agree that grid mode is crappy, but the absolute point mode works well most of the time |
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17:15:48 | * | kugel wonders if people have seen the screen shots I posted (http://imagebin.org/108278 http://imagebin.org/108279 and http://imagebin.org/108280) |
17:17:37 | Stummi | could it be, that the most of the rockbox-community are germans? *g* |
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17:23:53 | wodz | gevaerts: ping |
17:24:07 | wodz | pamaury: ping |
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17:26:46 | saratoga_ | kugel: for what its worth, i think changing the menus to use icons but keeping the WPS would be pretty slick |
17:26:57 | pamaury | wodz: yes,, I'm sorry for the mrobe, I forgot it at home :( I'm the only one to blame |
17:27:04 | saratoga_ | not sure if theres enough preprocessor magic on earth to make that work though |
17:27:24 | wodz | pamaury: ok |
17:27:35 | saratoga_ | maybe not icons, but larger GUI elements anyway for easier clicking |
17:27:55 | kugel | pick a larger font :) |
17:28:45 | | Quit z35 (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
17:29:25 | pamaury | wodz: I'm quite under pressure this week because this is the end of my internship but I promise I'll test it tonight, I've been rude by forgetting this |
17:30:04 | wodz | pamaury: ok, I'll post updated version of the patch to the tracker soon. |
17:30:18 | pamaury | ok, just poke so I download it before going offline |
17:34:12 | kugel | perhaps the yesno screen could be relatively easy to do with a native dialog |
17:34:13 | | Quit markun (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
17:34:35 | kugel | but I'm unsure if it's a good idea to use native widgets only partly |
17:34:53 | kugel | I think they'll look like another app pops them up, not rockbox |
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17:42:50 | gevaerts | wodz: pong |
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17:46:08 | * | rasher would preferably see native menus and rockbox wps |
17:55:12 | saratoga_ | bertrik: were you going to make vorbis flush the malloc buffer on track change? |
17:55:31 | saratoga_ | IMO thats worth doing as well as fixing that leak |
17:56:42 | | Quit wodz (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
18:00 |
18:00:44 | | Quit saratoga_ (Quit: Page closed) |
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18:05:58 | Stephen___ | S_a_i_n_t: ping |
18:10:14 | | Quit petur (Quit: Page closed) |
18:12:13 | Stephen___ | I'm abotu to update customwps wiki page wondering if anyone could have a glance over to check for mistakes? I know S_a_i_n_t had this on his todo. I had a few mins so thought i'd save him some trouble. |
18:12:45 | | Join bertrik [0] (~bertrik@rockbox/developer/bertrik) |
18:13:19 | bertrik | saratoga, I think I found out where the memory leak in the vorbis codec occurred |
18:13:34 | pixelma | Stephen___: do you have a pastebin or so? |
18:14:03 | Stephen___ | I have the editor still open I could copy to pastebin ? |
18:14:09 | pixelma | or maybe just do the changes and people can look at it |
18:14:27 | bertrik | saratoga, an attempt was made to allocate a PCM buffer from IRAM, when that fails, it is allocated with ogg_malloc (and never freed) |
18:14:34 | Stephen___ | ok cool. I'll submit it now. |
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18:15:49 | bertrik | it looks like it only happens with the specific 48 kbps ogg vorbis file and not with my own vorbis files (-q5, around 150 kbps) |
18:16:32 | bertrik | Reinitialising the ogg_malloc system for every file seems to fix it |
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18:17:40 | bertrik | I think it's not so nice that the player just hangs with a data abort when running out of memory, IMO a panic indicating the cause would be nicer |
18:18:54 | Stephen___ | Saint the very person |
18:18:57 | | Quit S_a_i_n_t (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) |
18:24:15 | pixelma | Stephen___: looks ok as far as I can see. The only thing I'd add (but could do so myself) is the %( and %) in the "other tag" section |
18:24:31 | pixelma | I wonder if a comma needs escaping too now? |
18:24:39 | | Quit DerPapst (Quit: Leaving.) |
18:25:40 | Stephen___ | Commas do need escping, what part is that ? do you want me to change the other tag section whilee I'm at it ? |
18:26:24 | Stephen___ | I was a bit unsure about the playlist viewer part, teh syntax of it now |
18:28:28 | pixelma | I don't know that part well, can't help you there |
18:29:05 | Stephen___ | i'll wait till S_a_i_n_t or JDGordon is around and pester them. |
18:30:15 | Stephen___ | anyway back to work for now, thanks for the help. |
18:30:19 | pixelma | I guess the example.wps is outdated now. Should it be kept? Updated? |
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18:30:41 | wodz | gevaerts: Thanks for testing. Gigabeat F seem to have something called HARDWARE_BEEP - does it work with patch? |
18:30:51 | * | kugel has test_fps running with a quick hack |
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18:35:39 | wodz | About jdG idea of loadable rockbox.zip - this is serious security flaw. Even if user IS asked |
18:37:26 | wodz | pamaury: I've uploaded new version of the patch to the FS #11531 |
18:38:10 | | Quit LambdaCalculus37 (Quit: Bye) |
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18:43:09 | pamaury | ok |
18:45:04 | gevaerts | wodz: the new patch? |
18:45:55 | wodz | gevaerts: I've uploaded slightly changed version but I was asking You about v01 |
18:46:04 | gevaerts | How would I know? |
18:46:14 | gevaerts | What does this HARDWARE_BEEP thing do? |
18:46:38 | wodz | I was thinking that You know as gigabeat f user :-) |
18:46:45 | wodz | I'll check in manual |
18:52:27 | wodz | gevaerts: hmm it looks like it disables rockbox's keyclick framework |
18:53:02 | wodz | does gigabeat f have keyclick? |
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18:54:16 | * | gevaerts never used keyclick |
18:55:14 | gevaerts | wodz: if I enable keyclick with your patch, I hear clicks when I press keys. Is that what you need to know? |
18:56:01 | kugel | ok, we currently have 271fps |
18:56:02 | wodz | hmm looks like this is long forgotten ifdef |
18:56:23 | kugel | but only because they happen async. synchronizing it brings it down to 64fps |
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18:59:09 | kugel | wodz: I thought so too (re security flaw). I could put a librockbox.so which only implements Java_org_rockbox_RockboxService_main(), then the phone would be yours (well, still limited to native code but still) |
19:00 |
19:00:23 | kugel | the phone would be mine of course :) |
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19:02:52 | wodz | I read somewhere about some worm targeting android presenting itself as a media player so this is not so unlikely scenario to use librockbox.so/zip to attack phone |
19:03:33 | | Quit T44 (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
19:03:47 | kugel | you cannot do that with native code IIUC |
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19:04:27 | kugel | like sending expensive sms |
19:04:50 | wodz | I see but DoS is possible |
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19:14:41 | wodz | gevaerts: It looks like one of the timer can be used to generate beeps (http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/ToshibaGigabeatFXPortPins) but I don't see this to be used in rb |
19:20:27 | wodz | gevaerts: aaa I see it IS used. If You can hear keyclicks that mens everything is ok |
19:22:02 | bertrik | This is the fix I'm planning to commit for the vorbis malloc problem: http://pastebin.ca/1915233 it basically causes the ogg_malloc system to be reinitialised for each file when playing multiple vorbis in sequence (as opposed to resuming from the previous state earlier) |
19:24:18 | wodz | bertrik: what about the leak You have revealed? |
19:24:44 | bertrik | that leak is worked around with this patch |
19:25:05 | wodz | but isn't it better to fix the leak? |
19:27:16 | kugel | bertrik: don't feel like freeing the leak? |
19:27:21 | bertrik | that's quite complicated, we have basically two allocators for ogg, a fancy TLSF one for main DRAM and a completely naive (without a free) one for IRAM |
19:28:27 | bertrik | The leak occurs when ogg tries to malloc from IRAM using the naive allocator and finds it has no memory, it then does a malloc from main DRAM, this malloc is never freed. |
19:28:58 | bertrik | kugel, there's a hack in place now that I rather don't touch |
19:29:15 | kugel | so I guess it should be reinitialized anyway, to reclaim iram |
19:31:33 | gevaerts | I think it should be reinitialised, even if the other issues are fixed |
19:31:37 | kugel | but I wonder if it's a good idea to have a sort-of-heap in iram |
19:31:49 | gevaerts | It costs nearly nothing, and it's a good safeguard against other bugs |
19:32:26 | wodz | reinitialization is ok but why leave known leak? If some day someone implement more sophisticated allocator for iram and removes reinitialization the issue will popup again |
19:32:49 | bertrik | as far as I can see, the naive IRAM allocator is already re-initialised for every file, the DRAM allocator is not yet |
19:36:05 | wodz | bertrik: I would still add free() (if you know where leak is). Reinitialization maybe still good idea to prevent fragmentation and friends |
19:38:11 | bertrik | wodz, the problem is that there is not really a point in the code where deinitialisation is done already (as far as I can see), so I can't just add a "missing free". |
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19:39:08 | Buckwheat | Could someone link me to the svn for rockbox |
19:40:30 | Buckwheat | nevermind |
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19:46:55 | bertrik | wow, we have only 20.5 kB IRAM available as IRAM for codecs !? |
19:47:02 | bertrik | (on the clipv1) |
19:47:26 | kugel | bertrik: we should have 0 iram available |
19:47:46 | kugel | the entire codec buffer is in iram, 32k resevered for the core |
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19:50:26 | bertrik | kugel, the IRAM allocator uses static unsigned char iram_buff[IRAM_IBSS_SIZE] IBSS_ATTR __attribute__ ((aligned (16))); as its pool (from oggmalloc.c) |
19:50:51 | bertrik | the 20.5 kB is what I got from the clipv1 simulator by the way, not sure if this is representative for the target |
19:50:55 | kugel | config.h does #undef IBSS_ATTR IIRC |
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20:00 |
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20:07:26 | amiconn | bertrik: Regarding running out of ram mid-playback - wouldn't it be better to just fail instead of panic? |
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20:40:54 | bertrik | amiconn, it ran out of ram just after loading the next ogg vorbis file in a sequence. Maybe just bailing out instead of panicing is better indeed (anything else than crashing really) |
20:43:35 | bertrik | hm, there already seems to be something in place to handle out-of-memory, doing a longjmp |
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20:48:50 | bertrik | I think I'll put my basic patch on the tracker and let someone with longjmp/setjmp knowledge look at it |
20:49:18 | * | bertrik wonders if this longjmp/setjmp stuff in vorbis was ever tested |
20:49:25 | Lear | Sure it was. |
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20:51:06 | Lear | But that was some time ago (before TLSF and the "dynamic" IRAM changes too, I think). |
20:52:57 | kugel | Lear: I seem to remember that you implemented the longjmp to recover (skip track) from a bad malloc |
20:53:34 | kugel | but I don't know whether it was the old malloc or tlsf-malloc |
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20:55:16 | Lear | Yep (with "bad" being "too big"). For the old malloc. I did tlsf later. |
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21:00 |
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21:01:40 | Ludo6431 | hello |
21:01:52 | CIA-9 | New commit by learman (r27773): Fix FS #11175. playlist_peek() wasn't thread safe (due to a static filename buffer), so frequent calls from the main thread would cause the audio ... |
21:04:00 | CIA-9 | r27773 build result: All green |
21:05:21 | LambdaCalculus37 | kugel: Have you seen this? http://developer.android.com/guide/practices/screen_support.html#attrs |
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21:10:42 | kugel | LambdaCalculus37: yes, error 404 is not new to me |
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21:11:02 | kugel | gevaerts: did you sent in my evaluation already? |
21:11:15 | kugel | (if there is one for you?) |
21:12:11 | gevaerts | kugel: not yet. As far as I know, that starts next Monday |
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21:12:46 | kugel | I just wanted to say that I want still to write 2 wiki pages, one about the android port specifically and one about porting RaaA in general (what's needed at minimum, what rockbox expects, etc) |
21:12:59 | gevaerts | Good idea |
21:13:19 | gevaerts | That also fits nicely into the gsoc soft pencils down time |
21:13:32 | sko | kugel: try this link: http://developer.android.com/guide/practices/screens_support.html#attrs |
21:13:36 | kugel | oh yes, final evaluations are *from* august 16, I read until |
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21:42:15 | * | gevaerts congratulates Lear for fixing the bug with the weirdest effect of the last year |
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21:46:43 | cd | kugel: I tried to use your latest apk on Galaxy S but could not start music. Error accessing playlist control file! Do you have a hint for me? |
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21:51:54 | wodz | Can we close FS #7138? I think this has been commited long ago |
22:00 |
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22:40:29 | Kiddyshaq | hi? |
22:43:11 | pixelma | welcome. If you have a Rockbox related question just ask |
22:44:52 | Kiddyshaq | Sorry if you already know this but I wonder if there is a Zune port |
22:47:31 | Bagder | there is none |
22:47:41 | Bagder | you can start it! |
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22:49:21 | Kiddyshaq | what about ipod nano 2g? |
22:50:55 | Bagder | I believe rockbox works rather good on it |
22:51:06 | Bagder | http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/IPodNano2GPort |
22:51:11 | Bagder | (as linked from the front page) |
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22:56:18 | Kiddyshaq | what does "Stkov nand" mean? |
23:00 |
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23:02:36 | Kiddyshaq | Bye ;) |
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23:11:42 | bertrik | I've put my analysis of the ogg vorbis malloc problem on clip v1 on the tracker: http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/11533 |
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23:52:41 | saratoga | bertrik: in the meantime can you change the codec to reinit the malloc buffer on track change? |
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23:57:06 | stripwax | hrm, the tlsf buffer should be getting freed. |
23:57:22 | stripwax | [and/or only being alloc'd once] |
23:58:00 | stripwax | I seem to recall n1s had a patch for simplifying the pcm buffer alloc (which I still never got a chance to take a look at) but wondering if it addresses some of this |