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#rockbox log for 2010-08-23

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00:21:10amiconnGah, heuristics! :(
00:21:40*amiconn wondered why a freshly build 'skinupdater.exe' wouldn't work on Win7 unless run in an administrator sheel
00:22:21amiconnWindows sees 'update' as part of the name, and concludes this is an installer/ updater. Then it refuses to run without admin permissions
00:22:48amiconnRenaming the .exe to something else fixes the issue
00:29:16*gevaerts isn't sure if that should be called "heuristics"
00:29:51BagderI'd rather call it "stupidity" ;-)
00:31:46pixelmaWin7... I didn't have the problem on XP
00:32:39amiconnXp doesn't have that kind of detection, because it doesn't have UAC
00:33:00amiconnI guess Vista users will run into the same issue
00:33:33soapthat explains a lot about a series of patches I was installing on Win7 the other day.
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00:46:38amiconnI think this could be fixed by having a proper manifest
00:50:52***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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02:04:10mc2739amiconn: vista behaves the same. running skinupdater brings up a UAC dialog. no UAC dialog after renaming.
02:05:37JdGordon|that's pretty messed up :p
02:06:02JdGordon|although I guess it does make some sense.. better overall experience than having real update programs fail
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02:50:56***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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03:25:19JdGordon|has anyone else noticed that playback starts then pauses for a tiny fraction of a sec then resumes?
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04:39:21songmasterHi. I installed Rockbox 3.6 on my iPod mini-gen1 yesterday, and today it can't boot, saying "*PANIC* Dir entry 15 in sector 3 is not free! 05 00 00 00". Can anyone help me recover?
04:40:49JdGordon|is it FA#@ formatted?
04:41:13songmasterYes, I had to do that to install Rockbox.
04:41:57saratoga_maybe check the disk for errors?
04:42:37songmasterI've already tried running dosfsck -r on the second partition, but that didn't fix the problem.
04:43:34songmaster(it did fix a couple of disk faults though)
04:44:07saratoga_i guess it mounts and reads ok on the PC?
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04:46:08songmasterAfter I ran dosfsck it did, but the panic prevents that
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04:47:02saratoga_try mounting it in the Apple USB mode
04:48:31songmaster"Apple USB mode"? I lied, if I reboot it with the USB unplugged I can plug it in and it mounts OK.
04:48:59songmasterRebooting with it plugged in starts RockBox and it immediately panics again.
04:50:59***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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05:01:29phixxorIf usb isn't supported, how do you get songs on a rockbox player? using the dualboot?
05:02:17songmasterUSB is supported, I just didn't understand the terminology. I do have it mounted now, in Apple USB mode.
05:02:36JdGordon|usb is not supported on all targets
05:03:53phixxori'm watching this video with the sansa clip+ −− is the text in rockbox smaller than native text, or is it the same with most players?
05:07:19saratoga_depends what size font you use
05:12:57songmasterI did an uninstall using the Utility, although that didn't delete the .rockbox dir so I did that by hand, then reinstalled and it's working now.
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05:24:38phixxoris it suggested to try the current build first and fall back on the release if there are too many bugs?
05:25:38JdGordon|well, which target?
05:26:32phixxortarget player: clip+
05:28:27JdGordon|current build should work fine
05:28:44saratoga_there is no stable build for the clip+ anyway
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05:57:02phixxor"Unless you changed this installation will fail!"
05:57:11phixxorchanged what?
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06:00:10phixxoryou might want to improve your error messages
06:00:51JdGordon|where the heck did that come from?
06:01:02phixxortrying to autodetect
06:01:56phixxorthis page is helping me though: specifically "Ipod and Sansa players require you to have administrator permissions."
06:02:11phixxordoes that mean I need to run rockbox utility as an admin somehow?
06:02:31saratoga_i don't think its needed on the clip+, just the older sansas
06:02:49phixxorsaratoga_, interesting. what could be the problem then?
06:03:02saratoga_what was your problem?
06:03:20phixxorscroll up: starting from "Unless you changed this installation will fail!"
06:03:56saratoga_i read that, i just don't know what you're talking about
06:04:05phixxorI'll take a screenshot
06:04:59saratoga_can't you just describe your problem in words
06:06:14phixxoralready did
06:06:19phixxori clicked autodetect and got that error
06:07:06saratoga_never seen that before, but random guess: is that path correct?
06:07:08JdGordon|please file a bug with that image
06:07:38phixxorcan you point me to your bug filing system?
06:07:39JdGordon|maybe it doesnt like the space in the path name
06:07:50phixxori tried with an underscore too −− should I try a \
06:08:34phixxorthanks −− i have to register :/ but tha't sok
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06:12:01phixxoris the category 'utils'?
06:12:16phixxoroh wait rbutil
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06:24:31BRi7Xhowdy... i'm having one hell of a time installing a ZIF hard drive into this gigabeat S, mainly with getting the ribbon into the slot on the hard disk drive, it feels fairly impossible... any suggestions?
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06:27:35phixxorJdGordon: bug is reported.
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06:29:35phixxoris there anything I can do in the meantime?
06:30:41JdGordon|try renaming the actual device so the mount point doesnt have a space
06:30:56JdGordon|BRi7X: you did open the lock thing right?
06:31:12BRi7Xis there a lock on the hard drive itself?
06:31:39phixxorJdGordon, same problem even for /Volumes/SANSA-CLIPP
06:31:55JdGordon|BRi7X: yes, a little black tab thing
06:32:04BRi7XjdGordon|: I'm aware of the lock on the unit, and it's no problem getting the ribbon into that.. but the actual hard drive? i'll check for it
06:32:10JdGordon|phixxor: did you actually change the mount point? or the directoy name in rbutil?
06:32:30BRi7Xholy crap that's so tiny!!! no wonder i didn't see it haha, thank you SO MUCH
06:32:32phixxorJdGordon: I renamed it on finder
06:32:38BRi7Xyou made my weekend!
06:32:50phixxori don't know if on macs you have to unmount and then mount again
06:32:51BRi7X(now let's hope the HDD actually works, because i got it used on ebay...)
06:32:56phixxoror if that changes the mountpoint
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06:33:36BRi7XjdGordon|: wow, scratch all that... the original hard drive that was in there had a black tab... there doesn't appear to be one on this apple hard drive that i have
06:33:56JdGordon|there should be a tab/lock/bar thing above the ribbon holding it in
06:37:25phixxorJdGordon, should I try skipping the autodetect step? specifying clip+, setting the mountpoint, and then hit ok
06:37:41phixxorI can try any experiment you can think of :)
06:38:24JdGordon|yes, ignore autodetect
06:38:51BRi7XJdGordon|, i can send you a picture of the two disks in comparison, one appears to not have a lock on it... and the ribbon still won't go in
06:39:24JdGordon|put it on imagebin... but it does have a lock :)
06:40:33BRi7Ximagebin? alright, i was just gonna put it on my webserver and link it here
06:40:40JdGordon|or that
06:45:12phixxorit won't let me choose complete or minimal installation −− both are grayed out
06:45:33phixxorhowever I do seem to be able to "install the bootloader" so I'll try that
06:45:51phixxorunless you say otherwise
06:46:43phixxoror wait, is that the manual install that does?
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06:48:32BRi7XJdGordon|: .... it's kind of a large image, let me know if you want a smaller one... the one on the left was the original, the one on the right is the one i wanna put in (it appears to have come from an ipod, as there's an apple logo on it)
06:49:21JdGordon|the one on the right looks broken?
06:49:36JdGordon|without the lock it probably wont stay in very well
06:49:57BRi7Xit won't even go in!
06:51:03***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
06:52:10phixxorJdGordon: sansaams wiki says there's a risk of bricking the system sometimes −− is this one of those times?
06:52:57JdGordon|yes, this is the only time a brick is possible :)
06:53:03JdGordon|its easy enough to unbrick though
06:53:41phixxorok the wording is pretty discouraging but I trust you
06:53:55phixxoris there anything i can do to avoid bricking it
06:54:32saratoga_i don't think anyone has bricked a clip+ with rbutil
06:56:14phixxorwhich one is the firmware file: .dat or .bin
06:57:16phixxorinstructions don't say specifically but I'm guessing .bin
07:02:52BRi7Xyeah this hard drive is definitely broken, might you know where i could find a hard drive for this Gigabeat S that surely will work?
07:03:08phixxori'm installing botio and literal themes −− any others you like?
07:04:27phixxoralright testing it now
07:08:05phixxori don't think it worked −− unless i have to hold down home as I turn it on
07:08:17phixxoraaand that didn't work either :(
07:10:05phixxor.rockbox is present on the player :(
07:11:57phixxoris there any way I can find out why it isn't working? all the install steps returned "success" messages
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07:12:42JdGordon|did you actually extract a onto the target?
07:12:55phixxorno, i used rbutils
07:13:26JdGordon|it should have done it for you if you did a full install
07:13:34phixxoras i said earlier
07:13:43phixxorfull install and minimal install were grayed out
07:13:54JdGordon|well then you havnt installed rockbox, just the bootloader
07:14:15JdGordon|extract that zip onto the player
07:14:18phixxorJdGordon: but after I installed the bootloader I then clicked "install rockbox"
07:14:37phixxorand it did that and returned a "success" message
07:14:53JdGordon|well if there is no .rockbox folder it lied
07:15:26phixxorJdGordon: there IS a .rockbox folder, but the player boots into the original firmware, not rockbox
07:15:42JdGordon|does it have a rocbkox.sansa file in it?
07:16:09phixxorrockbox.sansa, yes
07:16:35JdGordon|hold left or up while booting... does it show rockbox at all?
07:17:04phixxorI'll try −− I tried holding "home" while booting but that didn't do anything
07:17:55phixxorleft+power gives OF
07:18:10phixxorup+power gives OF
07:18:30JdGordon|does it display anything else thoguh?
07:18:33phixxorhome+power gives OF
07:18:40phixxorit's as if I didn't install anything
07:18:42JdGordon|then the rockbox bootloader didnt install
07:19:04phixxorok. can I try installing it with rbutil again or should I do it manually?
07:19:49JdGordon|do it manually
07:19:53phixxorby the way, under "info" in rbutils it says the bootloader is installed :P
07:19:55JdGordon|obviously rbutil no worky
07:20:04phixxoryeah :P ok I'll try manually
07:20:45phixxorJdGordon: should I try to uninstall the bootloader with rbutils before doing the manual installation?
07:21:19JdGordon|probably no need
07:21:27JdGordon|did you run it with admin permissions?
07:21:42phixxorno −− it never asked for permissions
07:21:58JdGordon|that starts explainig things
07:22:04JdGordon|restart it wth admin rights
07:22:28phixxorsara told me it didn't need admin :P ... ok
07:22:44phixxordo you happen to know how to start a program in mac os x with admin permissions?
07:22:58phixxorok i will find out
07:34:29phixxorJdGordon: I found out: if you're curious, this is one way of running rbutils with admin perms in mac
07:34:45JdGordon|I'm not :) I hate using osx
07:35:00JdGordon|I was forced to use it at work for the first few weeks... :'(
07:35:19phixxori'm not enamoured either :/ but if someone like me needs to know you could maybe tell them that
07:37:09phixxorJdGordon: the OF file ends in .bin right?
07:38:49phixxori installed the bootloader and then rockbox, this time with admin perms
07:39:03phixxorthe "full install" buttons were still grayed out though
07:40:55phixxortested it −− still no sign of any bootloader on it :(
07:41:08JdGordon|do a manual install then
07:41:45phixxordo I need to delete the .rockbox folder or do anything else before i start?
07:44:02mc2739phixxor: some newer clip+ will not install bootloader properly with RockboxUtility 1.2.7
07:44:24phixxorhehehehe so it would seem ;)
07:45:03phixxorby the way, the sansa firmware has two files .dat and .bin
07:45:10mc2739follow the manual install instructions here:
07:45:37phixxornot this one?
07:45:53mc2739the .dat is sample music and the .bin is the firmware
07:48:32mc2739either should work - the important thing is getting the latest released bootloader and mkamsboot - both have links to the proper files
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07:59:58phixxorfirmware upgrade in progress
08:00:41phixxoryay rockbox!
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08:51:07***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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09:19:26pixelmaJdGordon|: regarding the start/stop for a fraction of seconds then resuming - I watched this effect in the progressbar, didn't notice with the music I was listening then if the same effect is in the audio but it's possible
09:21:59JdGordon|how do you mean you saw it in the progressbar?
09:22:20JdGordon|I dont tihnk this is related to the bar showing, then showning empty quickly
09:23:08pixelmaok, for some reason I thought the relation was possible
09:23:46JdGordon|it might be, but I don't tinhk so (untested because my current theme is broken)
09:23:54JdGordon|I have a suspision to what that bar issue is
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09:37:16ChanakyaI was wondering if a member of WikiUsersGroup could add me
09:37:41ChanakyaI want to update the customWPS page but I cannot until an existing user adds me to the group\
09:39:01gevaertsSure. What's your wiki name?
09:40:20ChanakyaChanakya Goli
09:42:25gevaertsOK, done
09:42:27gevaertsHave fun
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10:34:34AsusFreakHi all. I made a bug task in Flyspray (FS #11558) some days ago. Rockbox is currently not starting on Cowon's D2. In the iAudio forum several users confirmed having trouble with the daily releases. May someone take a look at it, please. Or do I have to do something more than posting in Flyspray?
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10:41:29n1sAsusFreak: the problem is that very few devs have the d2
10:44:32AsusFreaknls: thanks for your response. So I am not able to do something more than posting in Flyspray? Then we will have to wait for a nice dev with the required skill and right environment. Ok.... Thank you, nls.
10:44:37pixelmait could be useful if you could find the exact revision that breaks it. You'd need to be able to build your own
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10:45:47AsusFreakpixelma: so I have to go back 3 weeks and will have to test them. Hmmm - ok.
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10:46:44n1sAsusFreak: a binary search usually works and means you only need to build a few revs to find out which one broke
10:47:16pixelmayou can do a binary search which is relatively quick. Go from your last known good version and the first known broken - build the one in the "middle" between the two, test, repeat
10:51:10***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
10:51:42AsusFreakOk - will last a bit, because it's some time ago I build it on my own but if it's helpful I'll have to make it. Thanks, guys.
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11:30:14Chanakyathanks gevaerts
11:30:39tkrooSanza Fuze stuck at "ROLO... loading" after updating with RockboxUtility to r277860. I can't turn it off :( any suggestions?
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11:31:14tkroooh. i was just able to turn it off
11:31:39tkrooawesome, boots up no problem. false alarm i guess.
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11:33:47tkroothanks to the rockbox developers for wonderful software!
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13:04:54pixelma;rev2=170 <- beside the fact that I can't see what changed but I thought that the playlist viewer viewport was recently changed so that the syntax for its "what to display" part would work the same as in the rest of WPSs? That would make the example quite different to what it looks now if we want to achieve what is described there
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13:14:23JdGordonwhat do you mean?
13:15:56JdGordonpixelma: ^
13:19:47pixelmathe example there "%Vp(1,%?it<%pp - %it>%fn)" - if it works the same as in other parts of the WPS would display "playlist position - title" if title tag is known otherwise only the filename and not what the description says
13:21:05JdGordonwell yes, thats a mistake then
13:21:19pixelmaif you want to achieve what's described and it works as in the rest of WPSs, then the code would look like "%Vp(1,%pp - %?it<%it|%fn)
13:23:47pixelmaI wasn't sure because something changed there recently and I had never used it
13:26:32pixelmaI forgot the closing > in my rewrite but looks like you noticed. Thanks
13:26:50JdGordonI didnt see the irc message untill after editing it :)
13:27:42pixelmaalright, at least I know now that I wasn't on the wrong track ;)
13:29:19JdGordonany suggestions for the tag letters to voice other tags?
13:30:23BRi7Xhowdy, JdGordon... one last question... will an 80GB iPod hard disk fit inside a Gigabeat S designed for a 30GB hdd? or will i need a new back (or at least a decent ghetto rig)?
13:30:48JdGordonprob will need a new back
13:30:53gevaertsI wouldn't expect a 80GB iPod hard disk to even work in a Gigabeat S
13:31:17gevaertsDon't forget it can't handle 512-byte sectors properly
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13:31:27BRi7Xwouldn't i just then format it?
13:31:34gevaertssure, every time
13:31:45pixelmavoice other tags?
13:31:55gevaertsBRi7X: the ipod 80GB disk is *buggy*
13:31:59BRi7Xhrmmm, this whole gigabeat S thing's turning into a nightmare
13:32:32JdGordonpixelma: see FS #11541
13:32:38BRi7Xwhat do you suggest i do? I have a gigabeat S with no hard drive and none of my gigabeat F drives will work in it because they're not ZIF, they're IDE
13:32:39gevaertsIt works in the ipod because Apple changed their firmware to work around the bugs (as does rockbox)
13:33:22BRi7Xi ordered a 30GB zif disk and it showed up with an apple logo on it and that doesn't even turn on whilst inside the S
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13:33:43gevaertsAre you sure the S isn't otherwise broken?
13:33:46BRi7Xthe broken original drive at least you can hear powering up, despite the clicking that follows
13:33:48n1sBRi7X: i'd suggest getting a disk that isn't from an ipod :)
13:34:04n1salthough the 30GB *should* work AFAIU
13:34:11gevaertsI'd actually expect a 30GB ipod disk to work
13:34:17BRi7Xi can't quite seem to find any disks that aren't from an ipod.
13:34:21gevaertsJust not the 80GB one
13:34:58BRi7Xthe ipod disk didn't have the little lock for the ribbon on it, as seen here: ... and definitely wouldn't turn on
13:36:31BRi7Xi have the 30GB ipod disk in, when it turns on i get error message 5 saying contact manufacturer for repair. no sounds can be heard coming from the hard disk
13:36:48n1sdo you have any other means to test the 30GB ipod disk?
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13:37:08BRi7Xhrmm not really other than this gigabeat
13:37:14wodzpixelma: what is the deal with mini1G clickwheel?
13:37:23gevaertsThat plastic bit might be important...
13:37:48BRi7X(one on the left is the original, the one on the right is the ipod one)
13:39:12pixelmawodz: it doesn't have wheel accelaration because it's different to the touch wheel the 2nd gen Minis have. If I understood amiconn correctly, the changes that were made to the Ipod 3rd gen and 1s7/2nd gen wheel drivers would need to be adapted
13:39:43BRi7Xother than that plastic bit, i can't figure out why it's not working, like not even powering on!
13:40:08gevaertsWithout that plastic bit you might not have good electrical contact
13:40:27wodzwhat is wheel acceleration exactly?
13:40:29BRi7Xis there any way around that?
13:40:55BRi7Xpossibly transplanting from the other drive?
13:42:34n1swodz: if you rotate the wheel at constant speed, your movement through lists will accelerate
13:42:45pixelmawodz: move quicker through long list when turning the wheel constantly. I don't know exactly how that works because I don't own a target with wheel, just noticed recently when comparing a self-compiled 1st and 2nd gen Mini manual
13:43:33pixelmanoticed that there are differences relating to that feature
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13:45:10pixelmait's probably similar to accelareting when moving through lst by holding the up or down buttons on non-wheel targets
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13:47:20n1sit's similar to butto accel but a bit easier to control
13:51:23JdGordonhahaha talking wps wrks!
13:51:45JdGordonwell soo damn close!
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13:54:27BRi7XJdGordon, gevaerts: well i got it working at least with a fair amount of tape, but the now powering up hard drive is click of death-ing... all that for nothing... eh. if you know where i can get a hard drive for this thing for a fair price, please let me know, i'm not sure what i'm going to do at this point other than keep using my screenless, usb portless gigabeat F
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13:58:17JdGordondoes anyone know if you can find out if something is still being voiced?
14:00:17seaniJdGordon: I've added a couple of points on the supported tags on the patch thread
14:00:31JdGordonI'm reading the last comment now
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14:03:03JdGordonseani: is my first quick attempt to make this work and it does... %?mh<%Vx(-, hold, %cl, -, %cM)> in the sbs will say "ache, oh, el, dee, ten, two" when hold is enabled
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14:03:39JdGordonobviously it needs a bit of tweaking to make it really useful, but hopefully you can see that is far more useful for everyone
14:03:52JdGordon- is used as a pause or shutup for the first one
14:04:11JdGordonspecial strings could be added for linking words
14:04:37seaniI thought the "best" behaviour was to cancel any current announcements completely when the hotkey is pressed. This allows impatient users to skip to the information they want
14:05:05seaniYes, I've also discussed pre-generated tags and connectives
14:05:36JdGordonthats what the first - does. my problem is that is strats talking a second time before the first is finished (which I'm not sure why it does that anyway)
14:05:53JdGordonthe point I'm trying to make though is this can immeditaly do much more than a seperate system
14:06:00JdGordonand means less maintenance
14:06:54seaniAre you specifying the second param for the talk* method? That queues I think. I went for non-queing on the first utterance of each announcement, then queuing
14:07:38JdGordonyes I am queueing them
14:08:13JdGordonwouldnt you rather play with the vkeyboard? :D
14:09:14seaniWell, we'll agree to differ. It *may* be able to do much more useful stuff when it's fully developed, for a given value of useful. You need to get to that point, and it needs an ecosystem of stable surrounding utilities.
14:09:42seaniSorry, that sound snarky, isn't meant to be. I just think a lot of it will end up as cool but not useful
14:10:42JdGordonthe big issue I see is that if no active dev actually uses the feature, and it is a new system, eventually it will be left outdated with people asking for additions and noone caring enough to add them (even if patches are uploaded)
14:11:21JdGordon(plus the delta argument which might be rather large for a advantage for a small group of users)
14:13:06seaniLeaving implementation and the Kafkaesque bloody nightmare of getting anything in, stats would be useful on visually impaired users. Do any exist or do the seem to be a small group or just happy?
14:13:18JdGordonthat patch will immediatly give users access to over 100 peices of info in any screen they want
14:14:13gevaertsWhat sort of RAM impact are we talking about?
14:14:14JdGordonI can name 2 users off the top of my head who are blind, and both are rather quiet (and one is very annoying :D ), otherwise they are either happy or small
14:15:03gevaertsIt's hard to guess how many visually impaired users we actually have, but I'm pretty sure it's more than "a few"
14:15:57JdGordonboth ways would need to add a bit, but I think seani's adds more duiplicated code
14:16:09gevaertsAlso don't forget that we have car users who also like voice
14:16:31seaniAnd vkeyboard is very close if Real Life would stop biting.
14:16:39JdGordonand pocket users... this is the sort of voicing that would be useful for anyone :)
14:17:36JdGordon%?pE(30)<%Vx(-, %Ia, -, %It)> <- voice the next track with 30s to go
14:17:42seanigevaerts: The shouldn't be fiddling with their players when they drive, or fumbling in their trouser pockets. Animals.
14:18:09gevaertsseani: You prefer them to fiddle with their players *and* looking at them?
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14:21:59seanigevaerts: I'd prefer them not to fiddle. But then I'm comfortable being a hypocrite.
14:24:14seaniJdGordon: I like the voice with time remaining feature. But your binsize response is a politicians answer.
14:24:32JdGordontell me about it :) I hate that reply
14:27:15wodzlooking at source - it should be fairly easy to adapt clickwheel 1g-3g code for mini1G
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14:50:29JdGordon%cl and %cP arnt playing nicely :(
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14:51:59amiconnJdGordon: I have observed several bugs which are probably skin engine related:
14:53:13amiconn1) Crash after early USB. This is probably status bar related - the status bar is still missing in the USB screen during early USB. It should be shown, but it has to be the built-in one. Skin init must never touch the disk before early USB
14:53:34JdGordon%?mh<%Vx(-, %cl,-, %cM, text, %cP)> :) the "text" word means spell the next tag instead of checking the tag value if it does set a number
14:53:50JdGordonamiconn: flyspray....
14:54:02amiconn2) Full-line progressbar %pf on charcell not working at all (blank line shown instead)
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14:54:30amiconn3) Cabbie on Clip+ shows pixel garbage on the first line in WPS. Other screens are okay
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15:00:35mcuelenaerekugel: ping
15:03:40seaniIt's a short step from "weeee!" to ":-(" bon courage
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15:12:06pixelmaJdGordon: your whole line of example code looks really messy... too many parameters at once I can't just follow anymore
15:12:21JdGordonfor which?
15:13:26pixelmathe %Vx
15:14:02JdGordonwell, without a full example it is a bit hard to see the point
15:17:00pixelmathe one you posted here some 20 minutes ago, I don't think I need to c+p that
15:17:49JdGordon%Vx(hello) would spell hello
15:18:07JdGordon%Vx(%ia) would spell the %ia tags value
15:18:18JdGordon%Vx(%bl) would say the battery level number
15:19:16gevaertsDoes anyone have an idea how big (in RAM usage) our current virtual keyboard is, and how big the proposed new ones are/would be?
15:20:15gevaertsI really think we should offer people a choice, but not if it takes away half the audio buffer...
15:22:03JdGordonyou dont like seani's suggestion?
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15:22:49seanigevaerts: If you're referring to the proposal I made, please wait to see the patch before objecting. At the moment it's, less code, less ram, simpler and I believe faster. But please wait for the finished article, don't prejudge.
15:23:18gevaertsseani: I'm not prejudging
15:23:22gevaertsI just want to know
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15:23:33pixelmaJdGordon: that still doesn't tell me what all these parameters in your own example now 30 minutes ago should mean, what's all the craft in %Vx(,,,,,,,)?
15:23:33gevaertsI *want* all those vkeyboards
15:25:18JdGordonpixelma: -'s are "voice a pause" (or when it is the first option, tell the talk system to shutup)
15:25:40JdGordonthe word "text" tells it to spell the next tag instead of reading its value from the number (if it gives one)
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15:26:42gevaertsIt's just that ideally I want to have a choice of several, and that's where RAM usage really comes in
15:27:18JdGordonwhy several?
15:27:28JdGordonor which?
15:28:21gevaertsThere's FS #10763 which I think is also promising for some players and/or people
15:28:54gevaertsTouchscreen targets will want a different one again, but that doesn't need to be a runtime choice I think
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15:32:39JdGordontouchscreen is a completly different beast
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15:33:27gevaertsAs is the Player I guess. Two lines don't give you much
15:34:11n1sthe player already has its very own vkeybaord though
15:34:53*JdGordon removes the need for -'s in his talk patch
15:35:22JdGordon%Vx(%cl, %cM, text, %cP) is a bit easier to understand
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15:39:02JdGordonseani: by the way, I dont see any reason (technically) why your origional idea cant work on top of my patch also
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15:43:22pixelmawhy would we need two systems?
15:45:13gevaertssvn vkeyboard uses around 8kb. If that's the typical size of a vkeyboard implementation, and we have more than one (sufficiently different) nice vkeyboard, I think we should seriously consider having all of them and offering a runtime choice
15:45:54seanigevaerts: This would have been useful feedback on 18th when I proposed the idea on the public forum. I'll finish the patch to my own satisfaction anyway - which I believe addresses *all* your concerns as it stands - but I won't be wasting any time persuading anyone it should go in.
15:46:30gevaertsseani: I'm not saying our *current* vkeyboard is one of those we should keep
15:46:55JdGordongevaerts: I completly disagree on grounds of being told of on countless ocassions for apparently "wasting" 1kb
15:47:01gevaertsJdGordon: shut upo
15:47:22*gevaerts can argue using JdGordon's techniques just as well as JdGordon can
15:47:44seanigevaerts: As I say *all* your concerns.
15:47:58JdGordonI always end with a :) though!
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16:19:00kugelmcuelenaere: pong
16:19:26mcuelenaerekugel: you wanted to talk me about my RaaA commits?
16:20:52n1sgevaerts: imo the current vkeyboard is rather horrible to use and to look at (the code)
16:21:04gevaertsn1s: yes, I agree
16:21:11n1sseani: does your vkeyboard deal with Morse input?
16:21:41gevaertsAh yes, morse is actually a good argument to support more than one vkeyboard
16:22:01*gevaerts doesn't really see why this should be part of the "regular" one
16:22:13kugel1) r27832 is not working properly for me (htc legend). the directions with the (optical) track ball doesn't seem to work at all; the 4 hardware buttons only work after i have selected something with pressing the track ball (not after using the touchscreen)
16:22:29kugelalso it makes it impossible to leave the app with the back button which I think we shouldn't do
16:22:31n1sgevaerts: yes a general keyboard switching mechanism would be nicer for that
16:23:32kugel2) r27834: I don't know what exactly is moved to the sd card but I have hardcoded some paths to the internal storage so moving might not work properly (I haven't tested since I don't have froyo)
16:23:44mcuelenaerehmm that wasn't my intention (making it impossible to leave app with back)
16:24:05kugel3) I think r27839 can't work because the .apk isn't signed
16:24:32kugelsigning will be a bit complicated in our case so I haven't done anything about it yet (only a bit research)
16:25:19mcuelenaerere 3): the intention of it was to allow building the Java part, mainly for verifying that there were no warnings/errors
16:25:25mcuelenaerethis can be useful for the build system
16:25:41mcuelenaereI haven't looked into signing (yet)
16:26:13mcuelenaerere 2): I can revert it, but we shouldn't use hard coded paths
16:26:39mcuelenaere1) should also be trivial to fix, however I can't reproduce your bug
16:28:47kugelthe codec loading and unzipping uses hardcoded paths currently, but those might be fixable
16:28:53mcuelenaerethe issue with not having to use the track ball in 1) to get the hw buttons to work sounds like a focus issue
16:29:14kugelbut pressing it works
16:29:54*mcuelenaere fires up eclipse
16:30:06seanin1s: *All* current behaviour of the existing vkeyboard is on my list for the new one. I'll very likely solicit user feedback for the a non-touchscreen, non-morse version first before committing time to those, but nothing is being ignored. Except any further questions on the vkeyboard for today.
16:30:10kugelbut I'm definitely happy to see other guys stepping in :)
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16:30:25mcuelenaereperhaps I should've posted these in form of patches instead of commits
16:31:18mcuelenaereI also have a rework of the Java part which allows feedback when extracting the zips and gets away with the thread hacks, but it isn't fully working (yet)
16:32:03kugelthe sdcard is mounted with noexec isn't it? the codec files need to be loaded from an executable place (or copied to one before loading)
16:32:41mcuelenaereRockbox uses this tmp-codec.dll mechanism, doesn't it?
16:32:44mcuelenaerecan't we misuse this?
16:33:02mcuelenaereby putting the codec in /sdcard, but copying it to /data/.. upon usage
16:33:13kugelyes that's doable
16:34:15mcuelenaeredoes it copy the codec every time a song is played?
16:34:54kugelonly if the codec changes
16:35:28mcuelenaerestill, I wonder if that could negatively affect the flash storage
16:35:43mcuelenaere(and something to keep in mind)
16:35:47kugelit does the tempcodec.dll thing right now because we still use io.c from the simulator but my plan was to get rid of that then we could choose whether to copy or not
16:36:21mcuelenaerewell I think this mechanism could be an advantage in our case, unless we find a better solution
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16:36:58mcuelenaerewe should try putting as much data as possible on SD card
16:38:00kugelI think we should keep the android style as much as possible
16:38:23mcuelenaerewhich is?
16:38:57kugelwhich means having most (if not all) related data in the app dir, that way everything will be removed when the app is uninstalled and the "how much space does this app take" calculation works
16:40:24mcuelenaeregood point, and people could still move data to the SD card if they're on froyo I guess
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16:41:00kugelmcuelenaere: if we get it right, yes :)
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16:41:26kugelmost stuff is actually already on the sdcard, but not the stuff we ship in the .apk
16:42:03kugelbut config.cfg, database files (theoretically) are on the sdcard
16:42:27mcuelenaereI don't really like the current approach though, but I think JdGordon has a patch for that on the tracker?
16:45:13kugelbut is needed. the only other way would be to download the installation files on the first run
16:47:02kugelwe have agreed that we do want only an .apk for installation
16:47:36mcuelenaereso to update to a more recent build, you'd need to install a new .apk?
16:47:48kugelI think JdGordons patch makes it so that you update rockbox with a on the sdcard (but only the C parts, not the java parts)
16:48:02mcuelenaerewell I just meant that
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16:48:45kugelyes we want the .apk
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16:51:32kugelbecause a) only one installation method, b) making sure the the java and c are in sync (they could break at any time), c) installing an .apk is easier than the .zip thing, d) loading code from sdcard is a slight security risk
16:52:59mcuelenaerebut from a developer POV you can't easily/quickly update the C part
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16:55:37mcuelenaereyou'd need to reinstall the app
16:55:44kugelmake akp && adb install -r Rockbox.apk seems easy enough
16:57:44kugelthe apk also works with eclipse which I consider rather convinient
16:58:30mcuelenaeregrep -Ri apk rockbox/tools/* doesn't give me much
16:59:23kugelbecause it's not implemented yet :)
16:59:35mcuelenaeresounds logical :)
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16:59:55kugelif there wasn't the signing stuff I would have implemented make apk long ago :)
17:00:24mcuelenaeredoes eclipse handles the signi
17:00:31kugelwe could maybe implemented it with the debug signature for now, but you need a real one for the market
17:00:34mcuelenaeredoes eclipse handle the signing stuff automatically?*
17:01:03*mcuelenaere doesn't know much about Android & signing
17:02:02kugel"The SDK tools create the debug keystore/key with predetermined names/passwords"
17:02:29*mcuelenaere also found that URL
17:02:55mcuelenaerethe blocker is that we can't expose our private key I guess?
17:03:27mcuelenaereie, we can't put it in SVN
17:03:51kugelwe maybe could but that'd sort of defeats the purpose
17:04:51freddybgevaerts: the big jumbo keyboard patch with all the modes and the menu options adds about 4500 bytes and the sync remote patch shrinks it about 400
17:05:19mcuelenaeresee "Securing Your Private Key", I don't think it'd be a good idea to put it in public
17:07:22kugelwe probably need to have a key which we share (privately) between the devs and the build clients
17:07:46kugelor only the build clients; everyone who makes his own build could use the debug key
17:07:55mcuelenaerewhy can't the build clients have the debug key?
17:08:14mcuelenaereshouldn't the only person having the key be the one who pushes the apk to the market?
17:08:28mcuelenaere(or persons)
17:08:49kugelit's as insecure as putting a real key into public, but it also expires after 1 year which has implications on updates
17:09:22kugelit's not suitable for distributing to users
17:10:51gevaertsfreddyb: that seems to mean that the current vkeyboard is not only not very nice to use, but also a bit wasteful :)
17:10:51mcuelenaerewe could also only do the signing on the download server, that way none of the build clients have it
17:11:01kugelalso, different keys for the market version and the current builds makes it impossible to interchange them
17:12:23gevaertsI don't know if we want to sign builds made by another machine. That somewhat opens the door to rogue build clients being used to get "bad" content on phones
17:12:27kugelthat might be a good idea, but then you'd need to make it locally as well between make apk and adb install -r
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17:13:01kugelI guess the build master could handle it
17:13:14gevaertsWe have that issue with regular builds too of course, but those aren't as interesting as android apps I suspect
17:13:14mcuelenaerecan't we, devs, just use the debug key and have the build master + market "pusher" use the official key?
17:14:24kugelhm, the build clients could produce a unsigned apk with make unsigned-apk, while we do debug-signed make apk locally. I think I like that idea
17:14:25 Quit domonoky (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
17:15:29kugelgevaerts: the recent activity around keybox clearly shows that daps are also sensitive targets!
17:16:38gevaertskugel: I can think of several ways to use a "plain" DAP for less than nice purposes. I think they're still a lot less likely to be actually used than networked phones
17:16:46n1swe could build everything twice (with different build clients) and only accept the result if they are identical
17:17:00freddybgeverts: it was fine until thumb wheels came along :)
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17:17:43mcuelenaereI'm not sure how to solve the BUTTON_BACK issue, do we want to use this button in Rockbox or just ignore it? If the former, we would need to know when we're in the main menu so we can signal to the Java layer to handle the button press instead of ignoring it
17:17:58n1sof course compromising a connected device is far more interesting than one that isn't connected
17:18:59kugelmcuelenaere: I think it would be nice if the first press always goes to the main menu and the second one (if still in the main menu) goes out
17:19:52kugelbut that's not easy to do with the action system and apps/firmware separation
17:19:58mcuelenaereagreed, but I'm not sure how to do this without crossing the "no communication between firmware-apps"-line
17:20:33kugels/no/one way/
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17:34:57amiconnkugel, mcuelenaere: Communication clearly isn't one way. It's just that firmware code cannot include apps headers or call apss functions directly.
17:35:34amiconnIf you need active communication into the "wrong" direction, use a callback mechanism
17:37:11mcuelenaerekugel: could you test ?
17:37:58kugelthat just disables the back button?
17:38:19kugel(i.e. let the java handle it -> leave the app)
17:38:20mcuelenaereit's a short-term solution
17:40:36kugelI can try (later) but it looks rather safe to me
17:42:40mcuelenaereI just wonder how come I could still use the back button though
17:43:00mcuelenaeredid you try pressing it multiple times? Perhaps there's some layer there to detect an application lockup
17:43:30kugelI don't understand
17:44:03kugelyou mean when the back button didn't work for me?
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17:45:29kugelyes I did
17:45:38kugelthe touchscreen still worked
17:47:00mcuelenaerewait, with "the back button didn't work" you do mean that you couldn't exit the app, right?
17:47:14mcuelenaere(by using the back button, that is)
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17:49:58kugelit did nothing
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17:51:24kugelmcuelenaere: ah no I just tried again: it leaves the app. unless I press the track ball, then it goes back within rockbox
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17:56:23mcuelenaerehmm I was probably confused, I thought there was a mismatch between the behaviour on the emulator and the device you have
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18:11:59wodzamiconn: ping
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18:26:57freddybWould someone take a look at FS #11168 for me? This makes a huge improvement in boot time on the iPod Video.
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18:48:01amiconnwodz: pong
18:51:22***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
18:51:48wodzamiconn: I am hacking mini1G button driver and since You were touching clickwheel 1g/2g/3g driver maybe You can tell me what does line 211 of button-1g-3g.c?
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18:54:56CIA-81New commit by bertrik (r27861): Update of Czech language - FS #11560 by Marek Salaba
18:56:54CIA-81New commit by kugel (r27862): Introduce plugin_crt0.c that every plugin links. ...
18:57:15CIA-81r27861 build result: All green
18:58:13amiconnAfaiu it prevents spurious button events in the next call after disabling hold
18:58:50amiconnI'm not sure though, as, which has some docs on ipod gpio, is down
18:59:11amiconnI only have a 1st Gen and a 2nd Gen, not executing this part
18:59:27CIA-81r27862 build result: 1536 errors, 6 warnings (kugel committed)
19:00:21kugeloh, I thought we added the sh setjmp?
19:01:27kugelhm :\
19:01:59kugelwhere to put it? they're in codecs/lib currently, but sh (/hwcodec) doesn't compile that
19:02:16kugelmove to lib/ maybe?
19:03:17kugelI don't have enough time to fix it now; should I revert?
19:03:56wodzshit scroll forward works but scroll back doesn't :/
19:04:18gevaertskugel: I think there's a bit too much red there to leave it for a longer time
19:07:14amiconnkugel: I'd say revert for now. Btw, this clearly needs a full api version bump
19:08:07kugelit does?
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19:09:38amiconnYou're changing almost all return values
19:09:41kugelgah, I need to go, can someone else revert on my behalf please?
19:09:51amiconnThe core relies on them for displaying the proper messages
19:10:14amiconnThis isn't actually an api change, but a change the api check should catch
19:10:34kugelI see
19:12:31CIA-81New commit by kugel (r27863): Revert "Introduce plugin_crt0.c that every plugin links." ...
19:13:06amiconnWe don't have setjmp_sh.S afaics
19:13:26kugelamiconn: yes I saw now, I thought we do since plugins can also use exit
19:13:45kugelbefore my change already, and that needed setjmp. apparently just no plugin that runs on sh uses exit
19:14:18CIA-81r27863 build result: All green
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19:15:00*amiconn wonders where code that is used by both plugins and codecs should be put
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19:20:06bertrikI think I'll investigate adding an interaural delay to cross-feed
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19:25:22pixelmabertrik: where's the difference to our stereo width?
19:26:29bertrikpixelma, not sure if that does the same
19:28:13bertrikI think stereo width doesn't use a delay between channels, but just subtracts them from each other
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19:39:21ZambeziI got my Sansa Fuze v2 today. The stock firmware surprised me. It's fairly good, but I want Rockbox of course. But the wiki really scares me a bit. Considered unstable and possible to brick the player.
19:39:31ZambeziCommon sense says no go.
19:40:35gevaertsI think the chance to brick it is quite remote if you follow instructions
19:40:46gevaertsSo remote that I can't remember anyone actually doing it
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19:42:35Zambezigevaerts: I'm not sure I want to be the first. Just kidding. Well since you need stock firmware to transfer files it's really no idea to rush. There's some readings to do, grabbing a *.bin-file etc.
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19:49:31gevaertsfreddyb: FS #11168 looks reasonable to me (as a non-font expert). Do you think it's ready for commit, or does it need more testing/reviewing?
19:52:34*gevaerts wouldn't mind Torne to have a look at it, as a recent looker-at-it
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20:05:55freddybTorne was too busy to look at it. I wouldn't mind someone that's been around looking it over but it's pretty simple and I've been using it for weeks on a couple devices with out problems.
20:09:23gevaertshm, you use about 1KB of stack there. Are you sure that's safe?
20:12:53n1sif it runs in the ui (?) thread that should be fine, that has 8k stack iirc
20:13:04gevaertsI think all uses are in the ui thread, yes
20:13:40gevaertsWhere is that stack defined actually?
20:14:53freddybI don't know. You can turn down MAXSORT to about 64 and still get a pretty big improvement if space is that tight.
20:15:41n1si actaully wondered that a few days too...
20:16:02gevaertsAnd yes, it's 8K
20:16:06gevaertsshould be OK
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20:17:57CIA-81New commit by gevaerts (r27864): Read glyph cache in disk order to speed up loading - FS #11168 by Fred Bauer
20:18:39freddybgevaerts: thanks
20:19:36CIA-81r27864 build result: All green
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20:21:38n1sbertrik: are you going to commit FS #11533 ?
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20:24:13bertrikyes, I think so
20:24:34gevaertsfreddyb: no, thank you :)
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20:25:03n1sbertrik: ok, i think it's a good idea
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20:32:29wodzchar is unsigned by default on arm?
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20:37:49n1swodz: yes
20:38:26n1sif you rely on the signedness of a char please use explicit (un)signed or the (u)int8_t types
20:40:34n1sthere are switches for gcc if that is a problem in imported code
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20:51:24***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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21:33:37wodzOk, I have wheel acceleration working on mini1g :-) Now I have to clean this up a bit
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21:40:14maraz_where has the sleep timer setting gone?
21:40:25LearTime screen?
21:41:27maraz_makes sense not to have it in the settings ;)
21:41:57gevaertsWell, it's not a setting
21:42:41maraz_not from the developer viewpoint? :)
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21:43:19gevaertsSettings are persistent
21:43:31Strife89Hmm, wasn't there another skin-breaking commit a couple of days ago?
21:44:17maraz_gevaerts: oh.
21:44:24maraz_that does make sense
21:44:37maraz_i wonder what shut my nano down during battery bench
21:44:40maraz_reason: power off
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21:44:49maraz_the battery didn't die yet, it's at 65%
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21:54:59bertrikmaraz_, maybe your playlist just ended and the idle poweroff kicked in
21:55:26bertrikit says "reason: power off" when it receives a SYS_POWEROFF event
21:55:30gevaertsOr maybe you forgot to switch on hold and a cat stepped on it
21:55:53maraz_nope, it was on repeat
21:55:58maraz_and i don't have a cat...
21:56:04maraz_not that i know of, at least.
21:56:20CIA-81New commit by wodz (r27865): Implement WHEEL_ACCELERATION for Ipod mini 1G based on code for 1G/2G.
21:57:01wodzpixelma: voila :-)
21:57:56CIA-81r27865 build result: All green
21:58:28pixelmanice :)
22:01:04wodzmaybe driver for 1g-3g and mini 1g should be merged
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22:10:00CIA-81New commit by bertrik (r27866): Reinitialise ogg_malloc system on each track change with the vorbis codec - part of FS #11533 by me
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22:11:43CIA-81r27866 build result: All green
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22:45:27stephen__still having those theme switching problems on the x5. went back to 3.6 and it's not there. can't test my h3xx as it appears to be dead.
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22:49:35CIA-81New commit by bertrik (r27867): ipod fm remote: some static/const fixes from FS #11266 by me
22:49:42stephen__got the h3xx goin again with a charge will wait a few mins before transfering the newest update to check the crash
22:51:06pixelmastephen__: I saw an h300 sim crash too, it took a few more tries though. Unfortunately I don't have a remote for my M5
22:51:14CIA-81r27867 build result: All green
22:51:17pixelmaso I can only test sims
22:51:28***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22:51:29stephen__i got one on the h300 sim today. going from a theme to icatcher
22:51:33stephen__happened twice.
22:51:47stephen__do you think its connected to the last remote wps fix ?
22:52:37stephen__i have a build envoirment set up if i knew how to build a specific revision i could bisect
22:54:06bertrikyou can move between revisions with 'svn update -r <revision>'
22:54:23pixelmathe very last was the X5 greyscale-remote-with-colour-main-screen one if I remember correctly, but there were a number of remote WPS related fixes. You can check out specific revisions and build these with... what bertrik said :)
22:57:09stephen__doesn't seem to be affecting the h3xx
22:57:23stephen__changed themes 10 times or so now
22:58:27stephen__time to go build the x5
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23:00:50Tornefreddyb: sorry I didn't get to it sooner, but i had given it a glance adn it seemed just fine :)
23:01:02Tornefreddyb: i've been extremely busy with my actual job lately :(
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23:22:54 Part domonoky1
23:24:53stephen__i'm on 27774 and loading is slower but it doesn't crash yet
23:27:59freddybTorne: It's OK. Keep paying those taxes!
23:28:15Tornefreddyb: psh :)
23:35:06 Join Malcohol [0] (
23:37:14MalcoholHello. Wondering if someone could add me to the WikiUserGroup? Was going to add some (mixed) results of trying a few iPod Accessories to the table on the Wiki.
23:37:23MalcoholMy wikiname would be MalcolmTyrrell
23:38:57saratogaalthough it doesn't look like that user exists
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23:56:08MalcoholThanks for adding me.
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