| 00:00:58 | bluebrother | sideral: you're welcome. I really wanted that to get fixed :) |
| 00:01:04 | | Quit bmbl (Quit: Verlassend) |
| 00:01:21 | sideral | moos: Nevermind, in exchange you can arrange for a Wiki account that doesn't include it :) |
| 00:01:23 | bluebrother | and it also fixes the pause issue described in the task. At least for me. No idea why pausing causes an issue ... |
| 00:01:32 | | Join slooopy [0] (~sloo@p5493D2D7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) |
| 00:01:51 | * | bluebrother guesses that getting a wiki account that doesn't include ones name is pretty much impossible |
| 00:01:55 | moos | sideral: hehe :) |
| 00:02:02 | sideral | bluebrother: because pause needs the audio thread, which was blocked waiting for the DB to come online |
| 00:02:06 | | Quit efyx (Quit: Quitte) |
| 00:02:30 | bluebrother | unless you're good enough at lying at us to trick us into believing you've got a different name :) |
| 00:02:46 | bluebrother | sideral: but if the audio thread is needed, why does playback continue? |
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| 00:03:31 | sideral | because the audio thread controls the codec and buffering threads AFAIU |
| 00:04:21 | sideral | if the audio thread is blocked, the other threads continue to work their magic until they run out of data |
| 00:05:24 | sideral | well, fortunately sideral is my real first name |
| 00:05:35 | sideral | of my new pseudonym ;) |
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| 00:14:54 | mudd1 | sideral, how is your multi-resume patch going? Any idea if we'll see it in mainline any time soon? |
| 00:15:09 | pixelma | :/ |
| 00:15:45 | mudd1 | can't wait to get a decent podcast experience with Rockbox ... |
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| 00:16:43 | | Quit stripwax (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org) |
| 00:17:26 | kugel | mudd1: there are still some concerns about the patch |
| 00:18:33 | mudd1 | too bad :/ |
| 00:19:10 | sideral | mudd1: The base functionality is committed already |
| 00:20:18 | mudd1 | yeah, I activated the autoresume feature ... my WPS kept blocking – although I still experience that without the feature |
| 00:20:28 | sideral | mudd1: The next step will be to make it possible to jump to the previous track w/o losing the resume position, and to jump forward across an unplayed track w/o setting a resume position |
| 00:20:45 | mudd1 | thought it might be a problem of the partial implementation of your whole patch though and never dared to activate that option again |
| 00:20:48 | sideral | mudd1: Try tomorrow's daily build ;) |
| 00:20:49 | | Quit tchan (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.4) |
| 00:20:56 | mudd1 | heh |
| 00:21:20 | sideral | bluebrother just committed a fix that may cause that when your DB schema is out of date |
| 00:21:30 | mudd1 | is it in the SVN already? |
| 00:21:33 | mudd1 | ok |
| 00:21:38 | pixelma | why wait for tomorrow's daily then? |
| 00:21:45 | mudd1 | going to do an svn up |
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| 00:21:54 | sideral | yeah, if you can, do that :) |
| 00:22:04 | sideral | or simply rebuild the DB |
| 00:22:17 | pixelma | there are SVN "recent" builds, compiled on every commit |
| 00:22:56 | sideral | pixelma: ah ok |
| 00:22:57 | mudd1 | I have a build environment anyway |
| 00:23:18 | sideral | mudd1: saratoga said he's willing to commit this 2nd part eventually |
| 00:23:34 | mudd1 | great news :) |
| 00:24:26 | sideral | the other features (most notably, autoresume on automatic track change) are still under discussion, although I recently sensed a lack of disagreement on the developers' mailing list ;) |
| 00:24:36 | mudd1 | lol |
| 00:25:46 | mudd1 | Is the podcast recognition heuristic committed already? |
| 00:26:26 | mudd1 | or will it autoresume for my music, too? |
| 00:27:48 | sideral | No, not committed yet. Right now, it will try to resume all manually selected tracks, but not on automatic track change |
| 00:27:49 | sideral | I'd like to make the feature as configurable as possible (allow to configure which tracks can be autoresumed at all, and at automatic track change), but others (most notably Llorean) found the configuration too complex |
| 00:28:45 | pixelma | me too, just didn't take part in the discussion because the thread was already almost unreadable |
| 00:29:24 | mudd1 | worst part of the Rockbox installation workflow is the original firmware having to rebuild its database all the fricking time |
| 00:30:36 | sideral | pixelma: yeah, sorry for the long thread. Both Llorean and I tried to summarize it every now and then, but it wasn't easy :) |
| 00:31:39 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 00:31:44 | sideral | pixelma: why are you opposed to making the feature configurable? |
| 00:31:56 | mudd1 | sideral, the heuristic described in the tracker thread would work for me but I wouldn't mind being able to reconfigure that |
| 00:32:07 | mudd1 | there are people listening to music podcasts after all |
| 00:33:07 | sideral | mudd1: same here, I actually use the 20-min heuristic to great satisfaction |
| 00:34:08 | mudd1 | well, *that* wouldn't work for me ... I meant the *podcast* pattern in path or genre tag |
| 00:34:12 | | Quit DerPapst1 (Quit: Leaving.) |
| 00:34:49 | sideral | ah, that one :) yeah, I like that as well as it is more general, but I personally don't need it |
| 00:34:58 | pixelma | sounds like much complication for such a thing... my other reasons for not taking part in the discussion is that I don't listen to podcasts or audiobooks, and that Llorean already said most of the things I would have said |
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| 00:35:49 | mudd1 | I like segmented podcasts when they are available so there you almost always get below the 20 minutes |
| 00:35:53 | n1s | sideral: one common complaint from users is that we already have too many settings |
| 00:36:02 | sideral | pixelma: I understand, but, well, people's preferences differ, and I see no need not to cater for that. I for one love Rockbox's level of configurability |
| 00:36:26 | n1s | and, well it does make it more complex |
| 00:36:49 | sideral | mudd1: I see |
| 00:37:19 | mudd1 | n1s, I think you could hide these settings away from the average user |
| 00:37:47 | sideral | n1s: I actually think that I could live with just the one additional option to configure which tracks are allowed to resume after automatic track change |
| 00:38:15 | mudd1 | looking for a podcast substring will work for 95% of the users I guess |
| 00:38:48 | mudd1 | other possibility would be implementing the whole thing as a plugin ... but as far as I know plugins can't be loaded automatically on startup, can they? |
| 00:38:51 | n1s | historically, features were added with lots of knobs that very few people used, and when someone used them stuff broke ;) |
| 00:39:18 | pixelma | btw. having a fixed setting is also two-sided: if you are someone who would switch it on and off often because of you listening to different things it can hinder and the context menu way would be quicker. For example I like listening to my "various tracks" folders shuffled and to albums in order, since "insert shuffled" got added, I never needed to en- and disable again |
| 00:39:27 | mudd1 | maybe that would be a good way to handle the ever growing amount of features without cluttering the core settings |
| 00:39:28 | n1s | lately we have tried to think about what settings are really needed for new features since it's always harder to remove settings |
| 00:39:29 | sideral | not being able to separately configure whether the manually selected track should be resumed or not doesn't hurt too much because the a user willing to use autoresume can be bothered to skip back to 0:00 if a track he's selected accidentally starts in the middle |
| 00:39:32 | Llorean | sideral: One option is to come up with another proposal. As you saw, I was trying to suggest a way to get the same level of functionality with far less options (and I came very close, but you didn't like the option I presented) |
| 00:39:39 | Llorean | You could always propose a third way of doing it. |
| 00:41:54 | sideral | Llorean: I'm not opposed to additionally support the use cases you want. But I do not want to lose the automatic selection of tracks to resume on automatic track change. |
| 00:42:29 | | Quit n1s (Quit: Lämnar) |
| 00:42:50 | Llorean | sideral: My way would allow you to queue up tracks with the ability to auto resume on track change. It just removes automation from it, in favor of flexibility *while* reducing the number of options. It addresses an awful lot of complaints with the feature. |
| 00:43:06 | Llorean | Why does it need to be automatic, when it can be a (simple) couple button presses instead and remove false positives? |
| 00:43:14 | Llorean | People manage "insert" and "queue" all the time without difficulty |
| 00:43:21 | Llorean | And it would, literally, be no more complex than that. |
| 00:44:40 | mudd1 | well, isn't the whole point of this patch to protect podcast listeners from stupid mistakes? |
| 00:45:04 | sideral | Llorean: Because the automation prevents me from accidentally losing my "precious" resume points ;) , and is damn convenient. |
| 00:45:04 | sideral | I for one don't like the insert/queue menu all, it's way to complex as it is without me adding another option to it |
| 00:45:05 | | Quit sasquatch (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2) |
| 00:45:08 | gevaerts | rockbox isn't there to protect people against mistakes |
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| 00:45:44 | Llorean | sideral: It's not complex at all. There's no submenus or anything, just a list of a few options. |
| 00:46:02 | mudd1 | I might have to duck and run but: any software should |
| 00:46:07 | Llorean | gevaerts: I would say that it should *when* that doesn't cost usability elsewhere (which I feel this automation does) |
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| 00:46:25 | gevaerts | mudd1: then you're wrong |
| 00:46:49 | sideral | gevaerts: Are you implying Rockbox is there for people allowing to do crazy stuff with it, such as *gasp* configure it the way they want it? *ducks* |
| 00:46:56 | mudd1 | gevaerts, no, I'm just working in HCI ;) |
| 00:47:01 | gevaerts | sideral: no |
| 00:47:04 | Llorean | mudd1: Protecting users is fine when it doesn't get in the way of other things. You shouldn't protect them when it means preventing them from doing stuff they might want to. |
| 00:47:26 | gevaerts | mudd1: ah, so you're one of those people who work on making things as unusable as possible? |
| 00:47:27 | mudd1 | right |
| 00:47:49 | Llorean | mudd1: If you read the two proposals, sideral's is actually the more restrictive, as well as automating things which means it can have more accidental behaviour. |
| 00:47:51 | sideral | Llorean: I'm not proposing preventing anyone from doing anything. |
| 00:48:15 | mudd1 | but automatically activating autoresume for tracks that the user put in the directory /PODCASTS is hardly getting in anybody's way, is it? |
| 00:48:21 | Llorean | sideral: The only way to get the functionality I'd like is to add my options in on top of yours, so if it's just yours, yes it'd prevent things. |
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| 00:48:48 | mudd1 | gevaerts, you seem to have some kind of trauma that I don't know of :) |
| 00:48:50 | sideral | Right. I'm not opposed to add your features at all |
| 00:49:18 | Llorean | sideral: but mine duplicate nearly the entire functionality of yours, just without the automation. |
| 00:49:55 | mudd1 | computers are all about automation |
| 00:50:12 | sideral | Llorean: correct. But as I want automation, I'd loose with just your feature. |
| 00:50:26 | Llorean | mudd1: That's a meaningless statement. Automation when it means the user doesn't have control of how their playback goes isn't a positive thing |
| 00:50:53 | mudd1 | Llorean, I don't see why users couldn't have both |
| 00:50:53 | sideral | Llorean: I want to give users full control via configuration. |
| 00:51:02 | Llorean | sideral: You'd be able to have playback proceed *exactly* how it would with your features, it would just require *slightly* more preparation in starting playback. |
| 00:51:17 | sideral | Configure one time for once, not every time I want autoresume |
| 00:51:56 | sideral | Llorean: I'm well aware of the tradeoffs. I'm willing to give you your feature, but without sacrificing mine. |
| 00:52:02 | Llorean | sideral: And you'd make people who want to conditionally autoresume constantly turn it on and off, rather than making people who want to autoresume only have to do something when they want to use it. |
| 00:52:35 | sideral | Llorean: Wrong. The condition should be in the config. |
| 00:52:43 | Llorean | There's been a history of "make the people who want to use the feature have to do the work, and try to not to interfere with the people who aren't using it" and in a conditional use situation that'd be "don't interfere when they're not using it, interfere when they do" |
| 00:52:54 | pixelma | sideral: huh, which config? |
| 00:53:17 | Llorean | sideral: Your config doesn't meet the cases I expressed in the emails, so "should be in the config" doesn't really apply now does it? |
| 00:53:35 | sideral | pixelma: The configuration should determine whether a track is a candidate for resume-on-automatic-track change |
| 00:53:59 | sideral | Llorean: will you give that your use cases aren't mine? |
| 00:54:24 | Llorean | sideral: Yes, but your cases can be covered by my method, and mine can't be covered by yours. So if only one method is picked, mine's the more flexible. |
| 00:54:59 | | Quit saratoga (Quit: Page closed) |
| 00:55:52 | sideral | Why should there be a death match between our features? |
| 00:56:12 | pixelma | sideral: I hate software that tries to be smarter than me |
| 00:56:14 | Llorean | Because we don't generally include duplicate features. |
| 00:56:29 | | Quit leavittx (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) |
| 00:56:32 | Llorean | If they both do nearly the same thing, generally one should be picked and the other discarded rather than leaving overlapping features. |
| 00:56:35 | sideral | I love your feature, and I love mine. They address different use cases. |
| 00:56:41 | Llorean | That's why I suggested it should be rolled into bookmarking. |
| 00:57:01 | sideral | pixelma: So do I, but the smarts are in the configuration that _you_ do. |
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| 00:57:44 | Llorean | sideral: Once playback starts, mine addresses your entire use case. The only thing it doesn't address is automation in starting playback, something that we don't generally have anyway. One option could be the integrate the automation into Database searches. Create the ability to have a filter tagged as "resume". Then you could filter "tracks tagged podcast, resume" and let it automate that way |
| 00:58:07 | Llorean | Rather than trying to automate it *always* only automate it through an explicit addition to your tagnavi |
| 00:58:30 | mudd1 | "automation in starting playback, something that we don't generally have anyway" sounds like a bad omen for the patch I'm working on ... |
| 00:58:52 | Llorean | mudd1: What are you working on? |
| 00:58:53 | sideral | Llorean: I don't follow your point regarding the bookmarks. I suggest you take that to the mailing list, where you left my last bookmark-related message unanswered. |
| 00:59:06 | mudd1 | autoplay on inserting a MicroSD card |
| 00:59:27 | mudd1 | it's a plugin so far but as plugins can't get started automatically, this isn't practical in the long run |
| 00:59:30 | sideral | "something we don't have anyway" is what almost every new feature is about. Kind of a moot point |
| 00:59:38 | Llorean | sideral: Store the resume points in bookmarks, rather than in the database so that it doesn't require a database to use. Then fix your problems with bookmarks, rather than having co-existing systems for essentially the same thing |
| 01:00 |
| 01:00:00 | Llorean | mudd1: There's a feature for a plugin to be run on boot. |
| 01:00:05 | Llorean | It's disabled currently though |
| 01:00:37 | mudd1 | oh ok |
| 01:00:42 | mudd1 | gives me hope though |
| 01:00:47 | mudd1 | why is it disabled? |
| 01:00:57 | kugel | nobody knows |
| 01:01:06 | mudd1 | lol |
| 01:01:10 | Llorean | No clue here either |
| 01:01:18 | Llorean | My guess is that it may have increased boot times when autorock isn't present? |
| 01:01:44 | mudd1 | there could be an option to enable the feature ;) |
| 01:01:57 | Llorean | There is |
| 01:02:00 | Llorean | Change one line |
| 01:02:02 | Llorean | In the source |
| 01:02:02 | kugel | I doubt the boot time is noticeably affected |
| 01:02:34 | gevaerts | It's not disabled as such. It's just not enabled. There's a subtle difference :) |
| 01:03:14 | kugel | I think I would also prefer a solution with bookmarks for auto resume |
| 01:03:40 | Llorean | I think bookmarks would make the most sense. It doesn't have a prerequisite requirement like the database. |
| 01:03:47 | sideral | Llorean: I also don't understand your proposal of tying resume-on-track-change to the DB views. |
| 01:03:47 | sideral | Re: bookmarks: please reread my last message to the mailing list and reply there. |
| 01:04:25 | mudd1 | Well then couldn't the whole autoresume autoenable thing be a plugin which might be as bloated as sideral wants and we won't have to discuss this anymore? |
| 01:04:35 | gevaerts | sideral: how are bookmarks hard to use? |
| 01:04:40 | Llorean | sideral: create a way in which DB filters can be tagged "use autoresume" so that when any track is launched from that filtered list it automatically resumes. Then you can use any of the database's searching configurability as your method for configuring the use of autoresume |
| 01:05:15 | Llorean | mudd1: Ideally good autoresume should be a core feature. |
| 01:05:33 | kugel | tying it to tracks selected from the database is not ideal either, and contradicts with the idea to make it work via bookmarks |
| 01:05:48 | mudd1 | Llorean, it could but there could be a plugin that enables autoresume for all tracks that match a certain pattern |
| 01:05:58 | mudd1 | and that plugin could be loaded automatically |
| 01:06:03 | mudd1 | for people who want it |
| 01:06:12 | mudd1 | problem solved ... call me naive |
| 01:06:21 | Llorean | kugel: No, I think you're missing what I'm saying. I would like it to work how I've proposed on the list, but as an option for *automating* it, allow it through the database so that the configurability can be maintained (by way of database filters, rather than by an array of menus) |
| 01:06:23 | sideral | mudd1: I agree that ideally, we'd be able to have behavioral plugins such as autoresume, but Rockbox won't be there for a foreseeable future |
| 01:07:32 | mudd1 | sideral, no you'd have autoresume in core but a plugin API call along the lines of enable_autoresume(track) |
| 01:07:40 | Llorean | kugel: Basically, we already *have* a means for filtering out and selecting tracks by genre, tags, or otherwise, so use that rather than menus if it must be automated. |
| 01:08:16 | mudd1 | then you have a plugin that searches for a pattern and enables autoresume for all tracks that match |
| 01:08:18 | Llorean | kugel: Though I guess an "insert resumed" option means you could just "insert resumed" on a database search |
| 01:08:24 | sideral | Llorean: Your idea for having the DB views tag the playlist for resume-on-trackchange isn't bad, but it sacrifices one crucial advantage of my patch: My feature is agnostic to the way in which the track was added to the playlist. I don't like that some features don't work when tracks are started by a specific means |
| 01:08:45 | mudd1 | the config for that pattern would be in the plugin, too, so you don't even have that discussion |
| 01:09:25 | Llorean | sideral: Your feature requires a database *anyway* so I don't see why it shouldn't be dependent on launching them through it. If you feature could work without the database at all, it might make more sense to me that you'd be against using it. |
| 01:09:26 | kugel | controlling the way songs are played via database filters seems awkward |
| 01:09:57 | sideral | gevaerts: I compared the relative merits of bookmarks and DB-based autoresume at length in the ML thread and would prefer to keep that discussion there |
| 01:10:29 | gevaerts | sideral: ok, in that case I'm stating here that bookmarks are easy to use |
| 01:10:40 | gevaerts | Which you now can not oppose :) |
| 01:10:59 | Llorean | gevaerts: His objection (from my perspective) seems to be that there are some bugs in bookmarks, and rather than fixing them he'd like to just create a simple system that does what he needs. |
| 01:11:10 | sideral | gevaerts: Looks like a Pyrrhus (sp?) victory to me :) |
| 01:11:16 | gevaerts | sideral: for who? |
| 01:11:23 | sideral | for you :) |
| 01:11:39 | gevaerts | can't be |
| 01:11:55 | sideral | Llorean: please, not this again |
| 01:11:55 | | Quit froggyman (Quit: Ex-Chat) |
| 01:12:01 | gevaerts | A pyrrhic victory would be if I'd have read that entire thread to learn something entirely trivial |
| 01:12:20 | Llorean | sideral: Not what? That's more or less how you explained it to me. You listed problems with the bookmarking system, and then stated that autoresume was such a simple feature that you felt you should enable it your way instead. |
| 01:12:31 | Llorean | If that's not really what you meant, please explain it to me rather than being upset that I misunderstood you. |
| 01:13:02 | sideral | Llorean: Using the DB to generate query-based views is a different use case than using it to query some metadata for playback. The two are not related from a UI point of view. |
| 01:13:04 | gevaerts | sideral: at least point to the mail where you explain this. "Please read the thread" is *not* helpful |
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| 01:14:08 | Llorean | sideral: If you want to find a subset of tracks, the database is *literally* the tool created for that. So why should there be menu options for it? |
| 01:15:20 | sideral | Llorean: I did, in my last couple of ML messages. I was rather upset when you first stated that I didn't want to fix bugs in the bookmarking system, and thought we had cleared up that misunderstanding. |
| 01:16:25 | Llorean | sideral: Your last message simply stated "bookmarks are harder to use, and incorporating autoresume would make them even harder" |
| 01:16:39 | Llorean | If you have ""bookmark on stop" enabled and a feature to auto-resume bookmarks, what else *is* there to their use? |
| 01:17:03 | Llorean | How would that be "harder to use" than your autoresume? A bookmark is stored on stop, and loaded on start... |
| 01:17:29 | JdGordon1 | putting myself in the lions den here... I would also prefer a bookmark rewrite (even if it means using a subset of the db) than adding workarounds for its crappinesss |
| 01:17:37 | Llorean | Since there's already a system for parsing and writing bookmarks, your objection of "no need to write or parse them" seems somewhat obtuse since you already have the tools for this. |
| 01:18:14 | sideral | gevaerts: I don't question the usability of bookmarks, at least not here and now. But I regard them as two extra step to take (browse + select) to get autoresume, whereas in my feature I use the way I normally use to select tracks |
| 01:19:08 | JdGordon1 | sideral: autoresume could be done with "bookmarks" just as easily... the problem here is having two implementations doing very similar things |
| 01:19:09 | mudd1 | Llorean, what else there is is easy to say: bookmark on skip, bookmark on rewind ... |
| 01:19:20 | mudd1 | not saying that it couldn't or shouldn't be done |
| 01:19:21 | Llorean | sideral: If it were *auto* resume you would neither need to browse nor select the bookmark... Selecting a bookmark is *manual* resume |
| 01:19:31 | sideral | I regard bookmarks and autoresume as complementary. |
| 01:19:50 | Llorean | Autoresume would be "if present, load the bookmark when the track is selected" |
| 01:19:58 | JdGordon1 | exactly... autoresume should build on bookmarks, not be a side thing |
| 01:21:10 | Llorean | mudd1: Skip maybe, but rewind is a little odd. If you rewind erroneously, just fast forward back to where you were. If you rewind intentionally, then you'll want the bookmark at your final position, rather than where you started rewinding. |
| 01:21:54 | mudd1 | Llorean, by rewind I meant jumping back to 0:00 |
| 01:22:04 | mudd1 | sorry if that falls under 'skip', too |
| 01:22:12 | mudd1 | then it would just be bookmark on skip |
| 01:22:17 | sideral | Bookmarks are for manual things in my view. Want to remember something forever? Create a bookmark. |
| 01:22:18 | JdGordon1 | sideral: the absolute best system for this should be a single system (maybe built on the DB) which keeps track of track stoppages/changes/restarts which bookmark and autoreumse both use for their logic |
| 01:22:31 | JdGordon1 | having bookmarks and autoresume use 2 different systems is not nice |
| 01:22:48 | sideral | For automatic resume, I don't want my bookmark library / filesystem to be cluttered with autogenerated bookmarks |
| 01:23:05 | JdGordon1 | especially when bookmarks currently doesnt work on DB playlists (and some others iirc) and autoresume requires the db to be fully initialiszed |
| 01:23:36 | Llorean | sideral: So add a simple flag for the autoresume bookmark so that it's hidden, and never overwritten by manual bookmarks. |
| 01:23:43 | | Quit sudela (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 01:24:05 | sideral | bookmarks are to snapshot playlists, autoresume is to conveniently store a per-track attribute |
| 01:24:05 | Llorean | You still get filesystem clutter, but that's solved by "show music" rather than "show supported" or just by ignoring it. And comes with the benefit of not requiring the database to have autoresume |
| 01:24:31 | sideral | Llorean: you're proposing another hack, more complexity −− not a good idea |
| 01:24:32 | Llorean | sideral: per-track bookmarks has been a wanted feature in the past. |
| 01:25:12 | sideral | As has been autoresume −− so? |
| 01:25:37 | JdGordon1 | so build them together |
| 01:27:17 | sideral | more complexity for little gain −− no |
| 01:27:18 | | Quit GeekShadow (Quit: The cake is a lie !) |
| 01:28:23 | sideral | gevaerts: Here's the msg in which I summarize my reasoning for not basing autoresume on the bookmarking system: http://www.rockbox.org/mail/archive/rockbox-dev-archive-2011-01/0017.shtml |
| 01:28:53 | Llorean | sideral: Once bookmarks are "working as we want them" adding autoresume to them makes much more sense. Which is why adding it in as a separate feature *before* they work right, rather than fixing them, doesn't make sense. |
| 01:29:16 | gevaerts | sideral: you state there that bookmarks are hard to use. What I want to know it, what's hard about them? |
| 01:30:06 | sideral | I'd be willing to port autoresume over to any system better than the DB. I just don't see any arriving any time soon. |
| 01:30:50 | sideral | gevaerts: No, I've only stated that autoresume is much easier to use, which is true: It works without UI additons (besides configuration) |
| 01:31:23 | * | moos is going to commit FS #11885 "Whitespace fixes". Less controversial :) |
| 01:31:42 | JdGordon1 | what type of whitespace? |
| 01:31:46 | | Quit domonoky (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 01:31:48 | sideral | But the usability of bookmarks has nothing to do with me not basing autoresume on the bookmarking infrastructure |
| 01:31:58 | JdGordon1 | as long as you dont do \t -> space in imported code,... |
| 01:32:07 | Llorean | sideral: Then why was it part of your objection to doing so? |
| 01:32:31 | JdGordon1 | sideral: I'm not saying you should base it on the current bookmarking code.. that is shite |
| 01:33:41 | * | gevaerts thinks that there should actually be a summary of the different points of contention |
| 01:33:46 | sideral | It only served to make my point that bookmarking is more complex than autoresume in every respect, yet is has been accepted in the code, whereas autoresume faces much more rigor and criticism |
| 01:34:20 | JdGordon1 | bookmarks was added YEARS ago, at least 5... |
| 01:34:21 | gevaerts | sideral: see earlier. The more complex code gets as a whole, the more critical one is to new additions |
| 01:34:48 | gevaerts | We probably have several features that probably wouldn't get in today |
| 01:35:08 | pixelma | you have to also look at it historically... basically what gevaerts said and bookmarking is really old AFAIK |
| 01:35:50 | kugel | bookmarking doesn't interfere with normal playback, but auto resume does |
| 01:36:36 | gevaerts | I think we should try to keep the different issues apart. Autoresume != resume points != database vs. bookmarks |
| 01:36:48 | mudd1 | I'm sorry for starting this uhm ... heated debate and now leaving early but I have to get some sleep |
| 01:37:15 | mudd1 | good luck with finding a satisfying solution for everyone |
| 01:37:20 | CIA-7 | New commit by moos (r29082): Few whitespace fixes by Michael Hohmuth FS #11885 |
| 01:37:36 | sideral | Thanks moos |
| 01:38:15 | moos | You are welcome |
| 01:38:47 | mudd1 | good night |
| 01:39:04 | | Quit mudd1 (Quit: Ex-Chat) |
| 01:39:47 | sideral | kugel: Yes, that's the whole point of the feature. Don't like that? Don't enable it |
| 01:40:39 | * | gevaerts wonders how many people make use of the feature that bookmarks can be copied to another player |
| 01:41:34 | Llorean | gevaerts: I know that I have, but I can't imagine too many people do. |
| 01:41:49 | Llorean | I also like that they come with my MicroSD card when I move it into another player. |
| 01:41:59 | Llorean | It means that on very long trips where charging isn't possible, I can chain players. |
| 01:42:03 | pixelma | my guess is that most would use it for some tracks but not others and then this enable/disable business is a weird thing and may be one reason for this discussion |
| 01:42:10 | gevaerts | right. That's useful indeed (and technically the same thing) |
| 01:42:17 | CIA-7 | r29082 build result: All green |
| 01:42:39 | sideral | gevaerts: that's actually a nice feature. I haven't ever used it, though |
| 01:43:01 | Llorean | gevaerts: Well, there's no copying involved when you move the card. But it's an aspect of the same thing, sure. :) |
| 01:43:47 | pixelma | database files are also said to be interchangeable, it got a lot of code to make them endianness independent |
| 01:43:49 | JdGordon1 | bookmarks only work on single folders right? |
| 01:43:54 | JdGordon1 | single folder playlists* |
| 01:44:27 | | Quit dfkt (Quit: -= SysReset 2.53=- Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc.) |
| 01:44:29 | Llorean | JdGordon1: Single folders, or actual .m3u files, but not multi-folder dynamic playlists (yet) |
| 01:44:43 | JdGordon1 | or db |
| 01:44:49 | Llorean | Yes, or db. |
| 01:45:13 | Llorean | Which I imagine multi-folder dynamic playlists being fixed would also solve (since both would essentially require storing the playlist in the bookmark, I think?) |
| 01:45:14 | JdGordon1 | 1) remove bookmarks system |
| 01:45:43 | JdGordon1 | 2) add a new system to store all track stoppages (with info to rebuild playlist, ondisk but not linked to tagcache) |
| 01:46:05 | JdGordon1 | 3) on track start see if autoresume or bookmark is enabled and use that system to do your thing |
| 01:47:22 | | Quit kugel (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 01:47:47 | * | gevaerts isn't sure |
| 01:47:48 | sideral | one can always dream... :) |
| 01:49:05 | sideral | has anyone actually looked at the autoresume implementation? It's literally only a dozen lines of code or so, excluding configuration. It certainly does't warrant building a new infrastructure, or making an existing infrastructure more complex (bookmarks) |
| 01:49:07 | gevaerts | The two disadvantages that I see to linking it to tagcache are (a) tagcache is too big for some people (but that might be solvable by not scanning everything and only adding things when needed), and (b) real portability of flash cards |
| 01:49:52 | JdGordon1 | sideral: the current bookmark infrastructe is outdated and crap.. it NEEDS major work |
| 01:50:01 | gevaerts | (b) is actually a pretty serious shortcoming of the database today already I'd say |
| 01:50:26 | * | JdGordon1 said *not* linked to tagcache |
| 01:50:31 | gevaerts | JdGordon1: yes |
| 01:50:49 | sideral | JdGordon: agreed. but don't make the whole world depend on it |
| 01:51:05 | gevaerts | JdGordon1: I'm trying to enumerate why not |
| 01:51:30 | gevaerts | Because linking to tagcache *does* have some advantages if you use it |
| 01:52:34 | * | sideral nods wisely |
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| 01:53:43 | Llorean | gevaerts: Advantages to the user or implementor? And if to the user, can't they be duplicated without database? |
| 01:54:01 | JdGordon1 | sideral: makeing one system which everything depends on is good. It means much smaller changes when things need updating |
| 01:54:13 | sideral | Llorean: both, please see the msg I linked to above |
| 01:54:40 | JdGordon1 | and.. autoresume REQUIRES "bookmarks" anyway... its not like they are two seperate ideas |
| 01:54:55 | sideral | JdGordon: I don't disagree with that. I'm meant to say please don't stop the world until that system is done |
| 01:55:06 | Llorean | sideral: Well, it's the user we should be worrying about first. Implementation may be more complex, but it's also something that only happens once. |
| 01:55:23 | gevaerts | Llorean: I was thinking about usage. The ability to use the resume information in database queries can be nice I expect |
| 01:55:41 | sideral | yes it is. I use it daily |
| 01:55:42 | Llorean | sideral: And if it's the email you replied to me, you didn't describe in any detail how it's beneficial for the user. Just an assertion that bookmarks are too complicated. |
| 01:55:57 | JdGordon1 | sideral: you have to understand though, we are being hugely critical because there are better ways to do it... if someone patched it to do my suggestion it would be accepted without any of this argument |
| 01:56:11 | JdGordon1 | gevaerts: that could be done anyway |
| 01:56:15 | Llorean | gevaerts: That's something that could be incorporated into the database *anyway* though independently. "Does a bookmark for this file exist" is something I'd like to know in the database anyway, if i used it. |
| 01:56:22 | * | JdGordon1 needs to move his car |
| 01:56:35 | * | gevaerts isn't sure if it could be done *cleanly* |
| 01:56:37 | Llorean | gevaerts: In fact, databasing bookmarks overall would be nice, so that I could have a list of all bookmarks for podcasts, or all bookmarks for audiobooks. |
| 01:57:06 | gevaerts | Llorean: yes. But it has to be per volume :) |
| 01:57:12 | Llorean | sideral: There's, as a whole, a pretty strong objection to "put in one way of doing it, that's good enough for now, until we can do it the 'right' final way" |
| 01:57:23 | sideral | Llorean: more unrelated feature request won't help getting this resolved. |
| 01:57:24 | Llorean | gevaerts: Doesn't the database handle stuff on MicroSD already? |
| 01:57:59 | gevaerts | Llorean: as far as I know, yes, but you can't easily move the data with the card |
| 01:58:01 | Llorean | sideral: My point, in case you missed it, was that your benefits to users can still be duplicated, so they aren't exclusive benefits that make your idea better than others. |
| 01:58:33 | Llorean | gevaerts: This is true. I think the bookmarks should stay separate files, just that database should scan them just like it scans audio files, and allow their information to be searched. |
| 01:58:44 | sideral | agree |
| 01:59:04 | gevaerts | Llorean: ah, so bookmark changes would also prod the database code to do something? |
| 01:59:08 | * | gevaerts nods |
| 01:59:27 | sideral | ...at first sight. the devil's in the details |
| 02:00 |
| 02:00:03 | Llorean | gevaerts: If the database was present, sure. |
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| 02:08:02 | sideral | I need to go to bed. My interim conclusion for tonight: I now wasted _much_ more time having arguments on how to do a small feature right in the perfect world than actually coding it. So far it looks like it has not been worth it. |
| 02:08:02 | sideral | What's your bottom line? |
| 02:10:50 | pixelma | that you took an unfurtunate feature to get involved into Rockbox work</semi-serious> ;) |
| 02:10:58 | pixelma | unfortunate too |
| 02:12:13 | gevaerts | sideral: I think the biggest problem right now is that anyone who looks at the mailing list thread just turns around, so *nobody* (except maybe three people) actually even knows any more exactly what we're discussing |
| 02:12:50 | sideral | pixelma: Because it immediately shows the most pronounced traits of this community? It's better to find out now than later ;) |
| 02:14:18 | sideral | gevaerts: yes, TL;DR seems to be one of those key traits ;) |
| 02:15:14 | gevaerts | sideral: you said there are summaries in that thread. Why don't the subject lines indicate that? |
| 02:16:25 | gevaerts | If you really expect everyone to follow the discussion and try to identify which mails are worth reading, I'd say there's something wrong with your expectations |
| 02:17:08 | sideral | this is a simple feature in comparison to what other people work on (say, the Android port and the touch interface), and I do have trouble understanding how you can get so worked up about it. |
| 02:17:09 | sideral | gevaerts, I'd say commit the damn thing and let people play with it to become "experts" in this area. If they hate it, back it out before the next release. |
| 02:17:57 | JdGordon1 | doesnt work that way |
| 02:18:07 | gevaerts | sideral: commit *what*? |
| 02:18:44 | gevaerts | That's my point. You can't get a consensus if people don't know what the consensus is supposed to be about |
| 02:18:46 | sideral | gevaerts: FS #11748, latest patch set |
| 02:19:53 | * | gevaerts looks at the latest patches on FS #11748 and suspects that those are not what sideral means |
| 02:20:39 | sideral | This is a good place to start: http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/11748#comment38067 |
| 02:21:07 | gevaerts | Right, so *not* http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/11748#comment38076 |
| 02:21:28 | sideral | except that patches 0001 and 0008 have been committed already |
| 02:22:06 | sideral | and patch 0007 is not necessarily needed any more |
| 02:22:35 | gevaerts | See what I mean? :) |
| 02:22:38 | pixelma | sideral: we usually don't remove features (and try to avoid half-baked solutions because they have a way to stay around for longer than wanted) which is probably why the bar is higher initially |
| 02:23:26 | sideral | gevaerts: What _do_ you mean? That I should summarize the complete discussion in each tracker comment? |
| 02:23:44 | sideral | I'd be happy do create a new complete patch set at any time |
| 02:24:04 | sideral | but the next step is patch 0002, which is why it is in the latest comment |
| 02:25:35 | sideral | It's not my fault that FS is crap for conveying an evolving patch set. I'd be happy to point you to a git: URL if you want. |
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| 02:27:48 | sideral | pixelma: I respect that, but backing out stuff before a release is not what I'd consider removing a feature. |
| 02:28:18 | JdGordon1 | we have odd ideas about releases |
| 02:28:34 | gevaerts | Not really |
| 02:28:46 | gevaerts | Well, we're trying to fix that |
| 02:30:14 | pixelma | sideral: maybe I misunderstand "backing out" here, you mean only disabling it for a release? |
| 02:30:48 | sideral | pixelma: I mean removing the code again from the SVN repo |
| 02:31:14 | pixelma | well, then it's removing a feature to me |
| 02:31:40 | sideral | OK :) |
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| 02:32:24 | gevaerts | sideral: actually, I'd say the first TODO in patch 0002 there is a nice illustration of why one can have too many options :) |
| 02:33:41 | sideral | gevaerts: Good point. fortunately, Thomas Martitz did not insist on this particular behavior. :) |
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| 02:43:24 | sideral1 | Really need to leave now. Too bad no one else came forward with their interim conclusion. |
| 02:44:02 | * | gevaerts doesn't really *have* a conclusion, because he isn't 100% sure where the contention is *exaxctly* |
| 02:44:14 | gevaerts | But yes, sleep sounds like a good idea |
| 02:45:40 | sideral1 | Cheers! |
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| 09:37:53 | PurlingNayuki | Hi everyone. |
| 09:37:54 | PurlingNayuki | I've posted a patch in Rockbox:FS #11888 - Fix Onda VX777 display error without define #USB_BOOT when compile |
| 09:38:05 | PurlingNayuki | Please try it and apply it. |
| 09:38:11 | PurlingNayuki | http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/11888 |
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| 10:52:22 | lombax | So I've just managed to get rockbox back onto my gigabeat S after upgrading the drive to a 120GB model |
| 10:52:48 | lombax | And I'm finding that rockbox is actually slower to write to the device |
| 10:53:32 | lombax | Seeing as the new drive has four times the data density and four times the cache, while only a slightly slower spindle speed, is there any reason it'd be slower? |
| 10:54:29 | jhMikeS | make sure it's using UDMA mode |
| 10:54:39 | lombax | How can I do this? |
| 10:55:06 | | Nick lombax is now known as bluefoxx (fuzzylomba@S0106485b3917092d.vs.shawcable.net) |
| 10:55:08 | jhMikeS | go to System->Debug (Keep Out!)->View Disk Info |
| 10:55:51 | jhMikeS | at the bottom it should show "DMA Mode: UDMA 4" |
| 10:56:15 | bluefoxx | Yup |
| 10:56:55 | bluefoxx | New disk is http://www.samsung.com/global/business/hdd/productmodel.do?group=&type=94&subtype=100&model_cd=409 |
| 10:57:26 | bluefoxx | How loss of speed /is/ actually due to rockbox anyhow? |
| 10:58:55 | n1s | that disk has 4k sectors, wouldn't that hit the sector emulation stuff? |
| 10:59:12 | n1s | the 512b sector emulation stuff |
| 10:59:21 | n1s | s/b/B/ |
| 10:59:37 | jhMikeS | it should be made with the emulation stuff |
| 10:59:40 | jhMikeS | *shouldn't |
| 10:59:45 | | Part sideral |
| 11:00 |
| 11:00:13 | bluefoxx | ...Oh for the love of- |
| 11:00:18 | jhMikeS | it could dynamically switch away from DMA mode if the transfers can't be done because they're too large (just thinking out loud) |
| 11:00:23 | | Quit GeekShadow (Read error: Operation timed out) |
| 11:00:35 | bluefoxx | Right, my bootloader's been lost it seems |
| 11:00:49 | bluefoxx | Boot it up and it jumps right into wiping the drive |
| 11:01:42 | bluefoxx | I practically had to stuff my head up my ass and out my own mouth again to get it rockbox on this new disk in the first place |
| 11:02:39 | bluefoxx | Is there a nice, well written guide for a proper drive upgrade and firmware restoration? |
| 11:02:50 | n1s | the original firmware's bootloader is a bit quirky |
| 11:03:07 | n1s | bluefoxx: is it asking you fo a firmware? |
| 11:03:37 | bluefoxx | I kind of had to do a bunch of guesswork based on a half dozen sources and then discover that 7x64 and the windows tools don't get along |
| 11:04:00 | bluefoxx | n1s: It's jumping into wiping the drive data and then asking for firmware, yeah |
| 11:04:06 | bluefoxx | NOT something I want to do |
| 11:04:13 | bluefoxx | It booted into rockbox once |
| 11:04:29 | bluefoxx | And then I shut it down and rebooted it, whereupon we are now |
| 11:04:34 | n1s | you should be able to send a new firmware with sendfirm or beastpatcher i think |
| 11:04:50 | jhMikeS | need to downgrade |
| 11:04:51 | bluefoxx | beastpatcher won't actually see the device |
| 11:05:22 | bluefoxx | Windows actually wasn't able to figure out what the thing was, past "Gigabeat S series" or sommat |
| 11:05:49 | bluefoxx | I'm going to need food before I go any farther with this |
| 11:06:07 | * | bluefoxx thinks he's found a more despicable company for software than ATI now |
| 11:07:24 | | Join PurlingNayuki [0] (~PurlingNa@113.97.120.171) |
| 11:09:38 | jhMikeS | bluefoxx: see http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/9778 |
| 11:17:49 | bluefoxx | There a solution to this at all? |
| 11:17:53 | bluefoxx | A work around? |
| 11:18:19 | bluefoxx | I still have the original drive, could I make an exact copy of the partitions and then expand the second one into the new space? |
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| 11:41:08 | bluefoxx | I take it nobody in here could provide an answer for bluefoxx.selfip.net/img/scrn/gbs-sansdrvr.png">http://bluefoxx.selfip.net/img/scrn/gbs-sansdrvr.png ? |
| 11:41:08 | | Join TheSeven [0] (~TheSeven@rockbox/developer/TheSeven) |
| 11:47:53 | pixelma | bluefoxx: MTP mode? I'm purely guessing though and don't know how you switch between MSC and MTP on the Gigabeat S |
| 11:48:47 | bluefoxx | I don't think you can, else using it would be a lot less painful |
| 11:50:45 | * | jhMikeS 's to answer switch between those would be to switch between OF and rockbox |
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| 11:51:09 | bluefoxx | That's kind of not my issue right now though |
| 11:51:50 | jhMikeS | did you look at that link? does anything seem familiar |
| 11:51:56 | bluefoxx | Currently I'm trying to get the new drive to not automagically wipe itself when I reboot the thing after forcing myself inside out to get rockbox on there |
| 11:52:54 | bluefoxx | jhMikeS: A more straighforward version of what I wound up with, yes |
| 11:53:20 | bluefoxx | I've still got my original drive with the original firmware it was loaded with, can I use that to my advantage at all? |
| 11:53:41 | jhMikeS | make sure rockbox installs in the first place |
| 11:53:46 | bluefoxx | Is there a way I can rip the firmware from that and get it working, like can be done with say an e200 |
| 11:54:08 | bluefoxx | Rockbox did indeed install, though I had to run beastpatcher from a linux install |
| 11:54:10 | jhMikeS | put it in somethat that can read the disk |
| 11:54:15 | jhMikeS | *something |
| 11:55:15 | jhMikeS | have you had rockbox on it before or are you modding the hardware and trying to change OS? |
| 11:55:27 | bluefoxx | Changing drives entirely |
| 11:55:49 | bluefoxx | The stock thirty gig drive simply isn't enough for my liking, so I ordered a 120 for it |
| 11:56:00 | bluefoxx | My woes lie in trying to even get the stock firmware on there |
| 11:57:16 | jhMikeS | well, I asked if you had rockbox successfully with the 30GB if I wasn't clear |
| 11:57:36 | bluefoxx | I've happily had rockbox on the original drive for almost a year now |
| 11:57:39 | jhMikeS | ok |
| 11:58:41 | bluefoxx | I've got a bit-for-bit copy of the 150MB partition from the 30GB drive, could I perhaps use DD to write it onto the new drive? |
| 12:00 |
| 12:00:10 | jhMikeS | wouldn't hurt I suppose if you can access it while not in the player |
| 12:00:33 | bluefoxx | Don't have anything else with a ZIF interface other than the player :/ |
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| 12:01:22 | bluefoxx | I managed to get beastpatcher to run on a linux box after some work, after which the drive becomes accessable to either of my machines |
| 12:01:35 | * | PurlingNayuki is working on VX757 in order to port Rockbox on it. |
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| 13:10:15 | CIA-7 | New commit by mcuelenaere (r29083): Fix Onda VX777 LCD not working on boot ... |
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| 13:14:23 | CIA-7 | r29083 build result: All green |
| 13:18:30 | Dreamxtreme | this may sound completly insane |
| 13:19:01 | Dreamxtreme | but is there any way of the volume being lower from dropping a ipod ? |
| 13:19:58 | bluefoxx | Baaaaaaaaaaaaah~ |
| 13:20:30 | bluefoxx | DDing the firmware partition copy from the old gigabeat drive to the new one did nothing |
| 13:20:32 | bluefoxx | :| |
| 13:21:25 | bluefoxx | Fat load of good this has done me. I could have bought food with the same money I dropped on this dammed thing... |
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| 13:29:47 | bluefoxx | I'm going to go sleep, and take another stab at this when I'm a touch more rested |
| 13:33:27 | bluefoxx | Maybe take some stabs at making a bootloader myself or something |
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| 14:00 |
| 14:07:10 | * | amiconn finally managed to build m68k-elf-gcc 4.5.2 on Cygwin |
| 14:07:25 | amiconn | After 8 failed attempts or so... |
| 14:07:32 | n1s | \o/ |
| 14:07:52 | n1s | amiconn: how did you make it work? |
| 14:07:57 | amiconn | You know what's odd? |
| 14:08:07 | n1s | nope |
| 14:08:18 | amiconn | The fork error was 100% reproducable, but not permanent |
| 14:08:32 | amiconn | And it only hit when building multilibs for mcf 53xx |
| 14:09:03 | amiconn | So the solution was to not start over, but cd /tmp/rbdev-build/build-gcc and repeatedly type 'make' |
| 14:09:24 | amiconn | Had to do that 3 times, and after that ' |
| 14:09:29 | amiconn | make install' |
| 14:09:45 | n1s | ah, very strange |
| 14:11:05 | * | amiconn even reinstalled the whole cygwin installation |
| 14:14:44 | n1s | do you think patchin out the multilibs for that cpu would help? |
| 14:15:23 | amiconn | It might even be a specific problem of my system |
| 14:15:30 | | Quit evilnick_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 14:15:36 | amiconn | I just don't have an idea what it could be |
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| 14:15:58 | n1s | i guess we'll hear about it if other cygwin users run into it |
| 14:16:14 | n1s | great thing you found a workaround |
| 14:16:56 | B4gder | another barrier to entry to the cygwin land =) |
| 14:17:07 | n1s | indeed |
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| 14:30:50 | n1s | bluebroth3r: would it be hard to get rbutil to use the voice.pl script to get the string corrections? |
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| 14:32:33 | n1s | or maybe the string corrections should be stored in some other way that both the script and rbutil can use |
| 14:33:27 | | Quit Topy44 (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 14:34:20 | n1s | as it's just a collcetion of regexes to be applied to each string depending on which language and tts is used |
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| 14:43:11 | n1s | i should tackle that inlining thing |
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| 14:47:40 | n1s | i wonder if -Os and a lot of force inlining will be much better than going back to regular -O though |
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| 15:10:11 | CIA-7 | New commit by jethead71 (r29084): Try to get some control over #ifdef hell in usb.c by refactoring and inline function use. SYS_USB_DISCONNECTED_ACK hasn't been doing anything useful ... |
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| 15:15:33 | CIA-7 | r29084 build result: 8 errors, 30 warnings (jethead71 committed) |
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| 15:22:08 | n1s | ah, i can fix the inlining problem with a much less intrusive but far hackier solution |
| 15:22:18 | n1s | #define inline inline __attribute__((always_inline)) |
| 15:22:22 | n1s | simple as that :) |
| 15:23:14 | B4gder | does that inline even when you build with just -g? |
| 15:24:05 | n1s | dunno, but i can try |
| 15:33:05 | | Quit swilde (Read error: Connection reset by peer) |
| 15:35:59 | CIA-7 | New commit by jethead71 (r29085): Fix colors from r29084. Had some things in the wrong preprocessor blocks. |
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| 15:37:09 | n1s | B4gder: yes it does, although the FORCE_INLINE macro i had planned to use would have the same problem but would be more obvious, however it can be worked around by making if conditional on __NO_INLINE__ |
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| 15:38:01 | B4gder | right, it's just a detail to remember |
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| 15:40:26 | n1s | i'm interested in what people think is better, redefine inline like this or using a FORCE_INLINE macro |
| 15:40:39 | CIA-7 | r29085 build result: All green |
| 15:43:24 | jhMikeS | what is the purpose overall? to stop automatic inlining? |
| 15:44:08 | n1s | no, to actually make gcc inline inline functions when building with -Os |
| 15:44:18 | jhMikeS | ah |
| 15:44:38 | n1s | the new gcc seems to pretty much not inline anything called from more than one place with -Os |
| 15:45:02 | n1s | it's still a size save of about 25k over plain -O |
| 15:46:04 | n1s | and it also doesn't inline calls that end up in brances that are marked with UNLIKELY no matter what optimization level |
| 15:46:41 | n1s | ... unless they are the only call so it saves size |
| 15:48:19 | jhMikeS | I think I like the macro |
| 15:49:30 | jhMikeS | be sure to check all the stuff in the targets' system files, like interrupt enable/disable functions |
| 15:52:18 | n1s | yes, it's clearer that there's magic going on with that |
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| 15:54:06 | n1s | should i go through all targets or only the ones actually using -Os? |
| 15:54:48 | n1s | hmm, i should check if 4.4 does this too since the lowmem sansas use -Os i think |
| 16:00 |
| 16:00:07 | jhMikeS | how do they not get errors since some constraints are strictly 'i'? |
| 16:02:42 | n1s | you mean for asm? |
| 16:03:15 | jhMikeS | yeah |
| 16:04:27 | n1s | haven't look at those, maybe they have some magic for it |
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| 16:18:35 | n1s | i only spotted one using an argument as "i" input and that's the coldfire_set_macsr and it uses "i,r" but is inlined, i assumed since it's only 1 instr |
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| 16:21:01 | jhMikeS | coldfire doesn't seem a problem |
| 16:21:28 | n1s | how do you mean? |
| 16:22:37 | jhMikeS | with constraints, nothing forces 'i' that's also a parameter |
| 16:22:49 | n1s | ah |
| 16:24:59 | jhMikeS | maybe gcc just does it if there's no way to not inline it, if the lowmem sansas use -Os |
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| 16:29:00 | n1s | jhMikeS: i hope so, also i don't know if 4.4 is doing this as much as 4.5, i'll check it out |
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| 17:09:42 | jhMikeS | n1s: it's probably just gonna pick the smallest way to use the function, if for a moment one could think of gcc as logical and hazard a guess :) |
| 17:11:12 | n1s | yeah, it tries to but i've already found at least a few cases where it was wrong but i imagine that the interactions of inlining and other optimizatiosn make it a hard problem to solve |
| 17:11:37 | CIA-7 | New commit by nls (r29086): abrepeat: drop some inline's and rearrange code to save some size since this stuff is hardly speed critical. |
| 17:12:27 | * | jhMikeS would've thought getting from A to B, then repeating as fast as possible would be the goal |
| 17:12:54 | n1s | ? |
| 17:15:09 | n1s | it's just the drawing of the little marks on the progressbar, i checked in a sim and they are drawn about twice a second when enabled and it's a pretty obscure feature |
| 17:15:39 | n1s | i also discovered it's not enabled for the beast but the manual mentions it... |
| 17:15:43 | CIA-7 | r29086 build result: All green |
| 17:17:23 | * | jhMikeS never tried using it on anything |
| 17:17:58 | n1s | i've only used it to test if it works :) |
| 17:19:03 | | Part Zagor |
| 17:20:23 | n1s | 4.4 seems to be less catious, a sansa clip build with -Winline gave only 3 warnings in the rtc driver although this was with the apps code patched up |
| 17:20:47 | n1s | and, the common firmware code, i'll just diable the macro and retest |
| 17:22:25 | n1s | yeah, it gives a couple of the same ones as 4.5 but not nearly as many |
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| 17:38:15 | n1s | hmm, the plugins and codecs are built with the core -O switch too, but for coldfire those are not sensitive to size however on a real lowmem target they are |
| 17:38:42 | n1s | i think we should just drop -Os for the cf targets as this becomes too frigging ugly |
| 17:40:04 | | Join TheSeven [0] (~TheSeven@rockbox/developer/TheSeven) |
| 17:40:20 | n1s | the -O vs -Os delat on an x5 build is only about 30k and that isn't much of 16MB |
| 17:44:40 | bluebroth3r | n1s: well, having Rockbox Utility use voice.pl would mean it need to include Perl ... |
| 17:45:11 | bluebroth3r | IMO a good way would be to have a formatted file holding the corrections as regexpes that both Rockbox Utility and voice.pl can read |
| 17:45:41 | n1s | yes |
| 17:48:01 | bluebroth3r | hmm, wasn't I thinking about something like that in the past at some time? |
| 17:48:17 | n1s | i don't know :) |
| 17:48:56 | n1s | but it would be nice since to use the script now and a sapi voice people have to use cygwin :( |
| 17:49:31 | bluebroth3r | maybe something like language/engine/regexp/replacement? |
| 17:49:57 | bluebroth3r | afaics all replacements are of type s/foo/bar/ig so it should be sufficient to save foo and bar |
| 17:50:12 | bluebroth3r | and it shouldn't be too hard to make Rockbox Utility use that |
| 17:50:29 | n1s | some are a little different like for plugins |
| 17:50:36 | n1s | "Plugins" |
| 17:51:26 | bluebroth3r | ah, USB and ID3 aren't i |
| 17:51:59 | n1s | having a list for each language and engine would mean a bit of duplication but i don't know if that matters |
| 17:52:25 | bluebroth3r | we could make it use * as matchall for language and engine |
| 17:52:50 | bluebroth3r | like */*/USB/U S B/g |
| 17:53:06 | bluebroth3r | and deutsch/*/alkaline/alkalein/g |
| 17:53:11 | n1s | so 3 regexes :) |
| 17:53:19 | n1s | i like it |
| 17:53:23 | bluebroth3r | 3? |
| 17:53:33 | | Quit B4gder (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 17:53:47 | bluebroth3r | ok, we could make engine and language regexpes as well :) |
| 17:53:50 | n1s | well, ok 2 match expressions and one replace |
| 17:54:07 | n1s | yes, that's what i though |
| 17:54:21 | | Quit petur (Quit: Page closed) |
| 17:54:38 | bluebroth3r | hmm, there's a case that has language / engine / vendor |
| 17:54:51 | bluebroth3r | so maybe even another match expression |
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| 17:55:48 | n1s | yes |
| 17:56:35 | * | bluebroth3r should find some time and motivation to look into that |
| 17:56:54 | bluebroth3r | too bad I'm quite limited on free time this week |
| 17:57:02 | * | n1s doesn't really know c++ or perl so would be fairly useless |
| 17:57:46 | n1s | FS #11887 was what got me thunking about this again |
| 17:57:55 | n1s | does rbutil do sapi voices on windows? |
| 17:59:12 | bluebroth3r | I'm not too familiar with Perl either but since I did some Perl stuff a couple of weeks ago it might be a good excercise |
| 17:59:30 | bluebroth3r | yes, it uses the sapi_voice.vbs script |
| 17:59:55 | n1s | cool |
| 18:00 |
| 18:02:19 | bluebroth3r | it should be possible to use the SAPI voices directly but nobody did implement that yet. I'm also not sure if it's worth the work given that sapi_voice.vbs works :) |
| 18:03:07 | | Part ruckus |
| 18:03:08 | n1s | yeah, i guess vbs runs everywhere sapi does |
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| 18:38:55 | LambdaCalculus37 | Can someone with an HWCODEC target check something? On my JBRv1, I've flashed v3.7.1, and I'm noticing a very high-pitched whine on it whenever music playback is stopped. It may exist on other HWCODEC targets. |
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| 18:54:42 | pixelma | nothing with either the flashed r28369-101028 or with a RoLo'ed r29034-110112 on my OndioFM |
| 18:56:39 | pixelma | LambdaCalculus37: ^ |
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| 18:58:59 | tobi16516 | hi, i'm using the sansa fuze v2 and a fat32 sandisc 16gb sdhc: |
| 18:59:05 | tobi16516 | problem: card is detected by the sansa OF and indicated in rockbox developement-area but not in the info-area and filesystem, so i think it's related to this bug: http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/11798 |
| 18:59:16 | tobi16516 | i tried to fix this by loading the sources adding the delay-command and using this new compiled .rockbox as described but it didn't work. right now im using build r29086. |
| 18:59:22 | tobi16516 | i also tested a 2gb sdhc card and it worked with rockbox |
| 19:00 |
| 19:00:25 | tobi16516 | is there anything i can do, do i have to wait for a new release or buy an other sdhc |
| 19:00:45 | splinter | I'm sure there is a quick answer to this but i can't locate :( (sorry in advance). i have an 80gb ipod video with rockbox installed (current version) and it will detect my old music that was on the ipod but i can't get it to read any new music i load. is there something i'm missing? thanks |
| 19:00:52 | amiconn | bluebroth3r: Using SAPI directly via its C++ interface would have one advantage for SAPI4. |
| 19:01:21 | amiconn | SAPI5 has a direct recording mode where it works as fast as it can instead of realtime |
| 19:02:28 | LambdaCalculus37 | pixelma: Hmmm, can you try again with 3.7.1? |
| 19:02:31 | | Quit designate72 (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 19:02:41 | amiconn | SAPI4 doesn't offer that. Instead it has a parameter that can be set when recording to file which sets operation to a multiple of realtime (x2, x4 or x8) |
| 19:02:59 | amiconn | For some reason this parameter doesn't work through the scripting API |
| 19:03:38 | LambdaCalculus37 | pixelma: Try this: play some music for a few seconds, then stop playback. After a few seconds, the whining sound starts. |
| 19:03:55 | | Nick splinter is now known as splinty (~splinter@79.97.157.120) |
| 19:04:12 | amiconn | That said, SAPI4 is quite old and in most cases not needed anymore, but some people may have old commercial voices which are SAPI4 only |
| 19:04:15 | splinty | sorry for the duplicate, i'm unsure if my first message worked |
| 19:04:18 | splinty | I'm sure there is a quick answer to this but i can't locate :( (sorry in advance). i have an 80gb ipod video with rockbox installed (current version) and it will detect my old music that was on the ipod but i can't get it to read any new music i load. is there something i'm missing? thanks |
| 19:06:25 | amiconn | n1s (logs): Imo forcing inlining is a bad idea |
| 19:09:07 | | Join bertrik [0] (~bertrik@rockbox/developer/bertrik) |
| 19:10:38 | amiconn | bluebroth3r: Otoh, if we devise a way to store the regexes separate from the perl script, sapi_voice.vbs could apply them as well. VBScript does have a regex engine |
| 19:11:45 | amiconn | Hmm, this would enable them in rbutil for sapi only though |
| 19:15:27 | bluebroth3r | amiconn: Rockbox Utility could / should apply those regexpes before sending the strings to the voicing engine, so all engines should benefit (at least for the engine unspecific regexpes) |
| 19:15:36 | | Join designate72 [0] (~aaron@adsl-065-013-002-216.sip.asm.bellsouth.net) |
| 19:16:56 | bluebroth3r | ah, so sapi_voice.vbs runs realtime only? |
| 19:17:15 | bluebroth3r | that would indeed be an advantage for directly using SAPI |
| 19:18:20 | bluebroth3r | splinty: define "read new music", and how do you transfer the music to the Ipod? Are you using Itunes? If yes, is auto update of the database enabled? |
| 19:19:15 | splinty | hi Blue, sorry i transfered music in using explorer, created a new folder on the root of the ipod. i just spotted the auto update option so going to try that as soon as it stops scanning the database |
| 19:19:41 | splinty | thanks for the response though, very much appreciated. will pop back if i have any problems :) |
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| 19:26:28 | amiconn | bluebroth3r: sapi_voice runs realtime *in SAPI4 mode* |
| 19:26:47 | amiconn | In SAPI5 mode it runs at max speed |
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| 20:34:14 | n1s | amiconn: i'm not going to do the forced inlining since it turned out to become a big mess, i wonder if we should drop -Os for coldfire and go back to -O though |
| 20:35:42 | n1s | for the old compiler -Os basically did all optmizations that -O2 does except padding functions etc to align them, now it alters heuristics a lot too so very little inlining happens |
| 20:36:06 | | Part jaykay |
| 20:36:55 | n1s | why i thought about forcing inlining was that hopefully people have actually marked functions that should be inline with "inline" |
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| 20:53:22 | amiconn | -Os basically does everything -O2 does, except those things which increase code size |
| 20:54:46 | n1s | yes, but now it does less of those things -O2 does |
| 20:54:47 | amiconn | *Sometimes* inlining a function which is called more than once still reduces code size (for very small functions where the call overhead is large). In such cases the new gcc should still inline |
| 20:55:34 | n1s | amiconn: it doesn't always get that right, i found some cases when poking around where forcing inlining of some small functions would save space |
| 20:55:42 | amiconn | In theory, code optimised with -O2 should be faster than -O (== -O1), and in turn -O3 should produce faster code than -O2 |
| 20:55:54 | amiconn | -Os is usually something between -O and -O2 |
| 20:56:37 | n1s | but there's more to it, gcc can't know how much the code will grow without doing the optimization all the way so it guesses |
| 20:57:03 | amiconn | When dealing with non-lowmem targets, we shouldn't use -Os, unless it actually produces faster code than -O2,, imo |
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| 20:58:16 | amiconn | If this happens, it is imo a gcc bug as well |
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| 20:59:12 | n1s | why i switched for the old gcc was that it produced smaller code that was usually faster than -O |
| 21:00 |
| 21:00:20 | amiconn | Yea, -Os is supposed to be faster than -O, but not faster than -O2 |
| 21:00:48 | amiconn | Otoh, -O3 is supposed to be faster than -O2, but often isn't (at least in the cases I tried) |
| 21:00:59 | n1s | indeed |
| 21:01:51 | n1s | so do you agree that we should switch coldfire back to -O ? |
| 21:02:55 | amiconn | We might also switch to -O2 if it helps |
| 21:03:26 | n1s | yes but we need to be able to do some usefull benchmarks then imo |
| 21:03:57 | n1s | most of the core benchmarks are for stuff that's written in asm anyway |
| 21:04:48 | n1s | something like a database init test, a dircache scan test or something would be good |
| 21:05:30 | n1s | -O2 added about 50k over -O for an x5 build btw |
| 21:07:15 | amiconn | hmm |
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| 21:19:41 | | Nick YPSY is now known as Ypsy (~ypsy@geekpadawan.de) |
| 21:20:35 | kugel | n1s: how many functions are there which *need* to be inlined |
| 21:21:40 | n1s | kugel: that depends on what you mean, things that don't *work* without being inline should already be marked with the always_inline attribute |
| 21:21:50 | kugel | I suspect it's hard for gcc to decide to inline in -Os, it needs to know the size of the function before inlining but inlining enables much more optimization (e.g. const propagation) so it's kind of a circle |
| 21:22:07 | n1s | kugel: yes |
| 21:22:25 | kugel | perhaps I didn't understand the problem enoug. what's wrong with -Os and the new gcc? |
| 21:22:45 | n1s | but things marked with "inline", i think is usually marked so for a reason, that the autor thinks it is called enough to give a speed up |
| 21:23:18 | n1s | kugel: it inlines much fewer functions than the old gcc, |
| 21:24:30 | kugel | wasn't there gcc option to tell it about when to inline? |
| 21:25:19 | n1s | as far as i can tell there's no option to tell it to inline functions marked "inline" there are *lots* of other switches fro inlining though |
| 21:25:46 | bertrik | I think there are a lot of inlines where there is no good reason for them |
| 21:25:53 | kugel | -finline-limit |
| 21:26:02 | n1s | bertrik: maybe so |
| 21:28:40 | n1s | kugel: that would be a complete guess too |
| 21:28:44 | kugel | we should probably just trust gcc |
| 21:28:55 | n1s | seriously? |
| 21:29:28 | kugel | even if it's not always right, the old gcc probably also wasn't |
| 21:30:28 | kugel | if it fails to inline a real performance critical function, then add FORCE_INLINE. but IIUC this is about the core where no such function exists (codecs usually specify their own -O level anyway?) |
| 21:30:46 | n1s | yes and no |
| 21:31:27 | n1s | there are some performance sensitive stuff in the core, like lcd drivers etc (which is where i stumbled upon this in the first place) |
| 21:31:49 | n1s | and only codecs with their own makefiles set -O levels |
| 21:31:58 | n1s | so the single file codecs use the core setting |
| 21:32:10 | kugel | are you sure inling in the lcd driver affects the frame rate? |
| 21:32:58 | n1s | and the old gcc didn't seem to apply the heuristic to functions marked inline since it didn't print a single warning with -Winline whereas 4.5 prints hundreds |
| 21:33:05 | kugel | I'd think writing to the video memory makes all code around it rather neglible |
| 21:33:55 | n1s | kugel: not really since that was for the x5 which i don't have but there's a comment saying the function doing reg writes should be inlined since it is called often |
| 21:34:00 | kugel | that means that the old gcc may have missed to un-inline functions that are better not inlined with -Os |
| 21:34:46 | kugel | the linux kernel has this setting "allow gcc to un-inline functions", perhaps that corresponds to a gcc switch? |
| 21:34:50 | n1s | yes, since i don't think it did that at all |
| 21:35:39 | n1s | kugel: perhaps but i don't know my way around that huge pile of code so i don't know where to look but i expect they have something similar to a FORCE_INLINE macro |
| 21:37:28 | kugel | i always set this option since I trust gcc more than kernel developers :) |
| 21:37:58 | n1s | kugel: don't start looking at disassemblies of gcc output then :) |
| 21:38:33 | kugel | it even defaults to on on x86 |
| 21:38:39 | n1s | ah they do # define inlineinline__attribute__((always_inline)) |
| 21:38:51 | n1s | if you tell the config to force it |
| 21:39:40 | n1s | i suggested that in here earlier today but some people didn't like it, and i thik it's kind of ugly too |
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| 22:20:13 | kjosh62 | can someone answer a question about iboy please :D ? |
| 22:20:52 | AlexP | iboy is ipodlinux |
| 22:21:15 | kjosh62 | so it's only for ipods? |
| 22:21:27 | AlexP | It is for ipodlinux, not Rockbox at all |
| 22:21:35 | AlexP | Rockbox has Rockboy |
| 22:21:46 | kjosh62 | oh, i guess thats my problem |
| 22:22:00 | kjosh62 | when i first downloaded iboy, it worked perfectly fine on rockbox |
| 22:22:04 | kjosh62 | but now its not working |
| 22:22:05 | AlexP | No it didn't |
| 22:22:09 | AlexP | It never worked |
| 22:22:14 | AlexP | It is impossible |
| 22:22:15 | kjosh62 | it worked for me |
| 22:22:21 | AlexP | No it didn't |
| 22:22:35 | kjosh62 | im pretty sure that i played some gbc games on rockbox |
| 22:22:37 | AlexP | If you were running gameboy games in Rockbox you were using Rockboy |
| 22:22:39 | kjosh62 | on my sansa fuze |
| 22:22:51 | AlexP | And Rockboy comes with Rockbox, it isn't seperate |
| 22:23:08 | AlexP | I can assure you one million percent that you did not use iboy on Rockbox |
| 22:23:26 | kjosh62 | im confused, well, this is wat i did...umm |
| 22:23:34 | kjosh62 | i downloaded rockbox |
| 22:23:40 | kjosh62 | then downloaded iboy |
| 22:23:42 | kjosh62 | got a few roms |
| 22:23:52 | kjosh62 | and dragged it on my mp3 player |
| 22:23:57 | kisak | and iboy did nothing to run them |
| 22:23:58 | AlexP | iboy does not and never has worked on Rockbox. |
| 22:24:04 | kisak | rockboy did |
| 22:24:09 | kjosh62 | so how do i use rockboy? |
| 22:24:10 | AlexP | When you clicked on the ROM, Rockboy ran them |
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| 22:24:17 | | Join markun [0] (~markun@rockbox/developer/markun) |
| 22:24:19 | AlexP | it works like clicking on a music file |
| 22:24:24 | kjosh62 | i do not see my roms anymore |
| 22:24:34 | AlexP | You sticking a random iboy file on there is irrelevant |
| 22:24:41 | AlexP | Check your show files setting |
| 22:24:48 | AlexP | You acidently changed it |
| 22:24:56 | AlexP | (probably) |
| 22:24:57 | kjosh62 | okay let me check |
| 22:26:14 | kjosh62 | thank you so much alexP :DD |
| 22:26:17 | kjosh62 | it works now |
| 22:26:20 | AlexP | No worries :) |
| 22:26:21 | kjosh62 | yay |
| 22:26:34 | kjosh62 | it was set on playlists |
| 22:26:39 | kjosh62 | :D |
| 22:26:47 | AlexP | It is on the quickscreen and easy to change by mistake |
| 22:27:17 | AlexP | We keep meaning to change it for another default, but haven't been able to agree on what yet :) |
| 22:28:11 | kjosh62 | im completely new to rockbox, so IRC is a chat room with ppl who help design rockbox stuff? |
| 22:28:27 | AlexP | No, IRC is much more general |
| 22:29:00 | AlexP | #rockbox is just one of the millions of channels, which happens to be for support and development for Rockbox |
| 22:29:41 | kjosh62 | oh i have another question alex :) |
| 22:29:52 | AlexP | If it is Rockbox related, go ahead :) |
| 22:30:42 | kjosh62 | when i'm playing music, and i skip a song, how come half the time, it delays or freezes for the next song? like before i downloaded rockbox, it would just instantly go to a new song, but now i have to wait an extra five seconds for a new song |
| 22:31:26 | AlexP | It probably depends on whether it is buffered or not, but on flash players that shouldn't make much difference |
| 22:31:56 | AlexP | Try turning on dircache, I don't expect it to do much here but it is worth a go |
| 22:32:08 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 22:32:11 | kisak | kjosh62: about how many songs do you have on your player? |
| 22:32:21 | kjosh62 | about 700 |
| 22:32:27 | kjosh62 | in a 4 gb player |
| 22:32:45 | kisak | not nearly as bad as what I had |
| 22:33:16 | kjosh62 | what did u have (kisak) |
| 22:33:22 | kisak | I agree with AlexP, Dircache is the setting to try |
| 22:33:41 | kjosh62 | how do u acess that setting? |
| 22:33:45 | kisak | oh ... about 12000 |
| 22:33:46 | | Quit benedikt93 (Quit: Bye ;)) |
| 22:33:48 | AlexP | In system IIRC |
| 22:34:49 | kjosh62 | im sry but i can't find system IIRC? |
| 22:35:00 | | Nick Ypsy is now known as YPSY (~ypsy@geekpadawan.de) |
| 22:35:06 | AlexP | settings -> general settings -> disk |
| 22:35:16 | AlexP | btw, the manual is well worth a read |
| 22:35:35 | kjosh62 | oh i read half, i'm still reading it |
| 22:36:12 | AlexP | cool |
| 22:36:26 | kjosh62 | i got to general settings but there's no disk tab |
| 22:36:43 | kjosh62 | wait found it |
| 22:37:03 | kjosh62 | its general settings −−system−−disk |
| 22:37:05 | | Part thomasjfox ("Konversation terminated!") |
| 22:38:07 | | Join Keripo [0] (~Keripo@SEAS013.wlan.seas.upenn.edu) |
| 22:38:57 | kjosh62 | is there another option than that, b/c its still delaying till the next song |
| 22:39:18 | AlexP | You rebooted after turning it on? |
| 22:39:27 | kjosh62 | yes |
| 22:39:34 | AlexP | If it didn't help I'd turn it off again to save RAM |
| 22:40:06 | kisak | for a Sansa Fuze, it's better to keep it on |
| 22:40:12 | AlexP | Why? |
| 22:40:15 | kisak | in my experience |
| 22:40:24 | AlexP | I wastes RAM and shouldn't be necessary on flash |
| 22:40:34 | kisak | the IO is laggy otherwise |
| 22:40:46 | AlexP | If you haven't got any problems with slow navigation of the file tree, then turn it off |
| 22:40:48 | kjosh62 | kisak i have a fuze |
| 22:40:58 | AlexP | So do I (amongst others) |
| 22:41:18 | AlexP | Anyway, try using the player with and without then make a decision |
| 22:41:32 | kjosh62 | cool, so any other good ideas to make it less glitchy or delaying? |
| 22:41:44 | kisak | AlexP: I had problems with basic playback which was solved by turning on dircache |
| 22:41:53 | AlexP | kisak: I didn't :) |
| 22:42:01 | AlexP | kisak: But anyway, he should just try |
| 22:42:30 | kisak | AlexP: well, odds are you haven't thrown 12000 sound files on it |
| 22:42:35 | AlexP | free RAM isn't anywhere near as important on flash targets anyway, so it probably isn't that important |
| 22:42:38 | AlexP | kisak: No, more |
| 22:42:48 | AlexP | sorry, less :) |
| 22:42:53 | AlexP | I missed a 0 there :) |
| 22:43:11 | kjosh62 | so is there any options in fixing this playback problem? :) |
| 22:43:39 | kjosh62 | omg it works yay |
| 22:43:57 | AlexP | Heh, dircache to the rescue :) |
| 22:43:58 | kjosh62 | okay, one more question please? |
| 22:44:03 | AlexP | kisak: there we are then :) |
| 22:44:04 | kisak | AlexP: fuze v1 or v2? |
| 22:44:08 | AlexP | kisak: v2 |
| 22:44:11 | kjosh62 | v1 |
| 22:44:24 | AlexP | But, I don't do lots of skipping, I tend to listen to playlists |
| 22:44:32 | AlexP | Also, it isn't the player I use most |
| 22:44:51 | AlexP | kjosh62: go ahead |
| 22:45:12 | kjosh62 | actually lol i have two now, um ( |
| 22:45:56 | | Quit {phoenix} (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 22:46:25 | AlexP | kisak: I was also going on him initially saying it didn't help, but if it fixes things then great :) |
| 22:46:38 | kjosh62 | first..i downloaded all the album art for my songs and used an rockbox extraction tool but some of the album art is missing and is instead replaced with a default album art (this default is usually album art from a certain album) |
| 22:47:09 | AlexP | kjosh62: Did you have a look at the manual where to put your album art and with what file names? |
| 22:47:42 | kjosh62 | yes i did, i think it said jpeg and bmp files right? |
| 22:47:50 | AlexP | either/or, yeah |
| 22:48:09 | [Saint] | some people seem to have all sorts of stress getting album art to work, in my opinion the way that "just works" is to make sure that every one of your albums has a "Folder.jpg" in it. |
| 22:48:17 | AlexP | but they have to be named correctly and in the right place |
| 22:48:29 | [Saint] | Some media players even use that as their default naming scheme, so you don't have to do squat. |
| 22:48:34 | AlexP | [Saint]: sure, if you are organised album per folder (I am too) |
| 22:48:50 | AlexP | although I prefer folder.jpg :) |
| 22:49:00 | [Saint] | AlexP: The only sane way ;) |
| 22:49:15 | AlexP | IMO yes :) |
| 22:49:28 | kjosh62 | its no big deal rly but it sometimes bothers me to see some paper route album art on occasional albums when its acdc playing |
| 22:49:51 | AlexP | How did you name the album art files, and how is your music organised? |
| 22:49:54 | kjosh62 | my big problem that i just can't figure out is to make playlists |
| 22:50:06 | AlexP | One thing at a time :) |
| 22:50:07 | kjosh62 | oh um, its mixed in with my music files |
| 22:50:19 | AlexP | So all in one big jumble? |
| 22:50:24 | kjosh62 | like this is how i do it |
| 22:50:34 | kjosh62 | i have the music on windows media player |
| 22:50:56 | kjosh62 | and i download the album art and click and drag the album art unto the song in the windows media player (wmp) |
| 22:51:01 | [Saint] | if you have the music in WMP, then all you should need to do is a straight copy to the DAP |
| 22:51:03 | kjosh62 | then it tags the mp3 file |
| 22:51:13 | AlexP | We don't support album art in tags |
| 22:51:31 | AlexP | How is your music organised on the player? |
| 22:51:51 | kjosh62 | umm, for sansa fuze, i just click and drag files to the music folder |
| 22:51:57 | [Saint] | WMP uses "Folder.jpg" for it's album art, so if WMP has the correct album art it should "just work" without you doing anything... |
| 22:52:00 | [Saint] | that's all I do. |
| 22:52:08 | kjosh62 | and when i add album art, it creates a system file with the music file |
| 22:53:00 | AlexP | I don't know what you mean by a system file with the music file |
| 22:53:11 | kjosh62 | so within my folder i have the music file, the downloaded album art file, and the converted 100 x 100 btmp art file in the music folder |
| 22:53:25 | AlexP | So, everything in one folder? |
| 22:53:26 | kjosh62 | album art system file |
| 22:53:31 | kjosh62 | yes |
| 22:53:38 | AlexP | what does album art system file mean? |
| 22:54:27 | kjosh62 | like when i delete the file, it says "r u sure u want to delete system file?" |
| 22:54:38 | AlexP | That doesn't mean anything |
| 22:54:53 | kjosh62 | like if i delete it, the album art doesn't show up |
| 22:54:55 | AlexP | In that case the album art needs to be names something like "artist-album.jpg" (check the manual for the exact name) where artist and album EXACTLY match the values in the tags of the music file |
| 22:55:02 | AlexP | kjosh62: What is it called |
| 22:55:30 | kjosh62 | ohh so u have to have it named in a certain format to tag it to a specific file>? |
| 22:55:52 | AlexP | If you mash everything in the same folder, yes |
| 22:56:05 | kjosh62 | what if you don't? |
| 22:56:16 | [Saint] | our fine manual covers this process quite nicely. |
| 22:56:31 | kjosh62 | i guess i haven't read that part yet :) |
| 22:56:37 | kjosh62 | i'll keep reading the second half |
| 22:56:51 | kjosh62 | btw the sound eq is amazing |
| 22:57:13 | kjosh62 | is it just me or regular custom eq in the sansa fuze is not as good as rockbox right? |
| 22:57:33 | AlexP | http://download.rockbox.org/daily/manual/rockbox-sansafuzev2/rockbox-buildap2.html#x17-377000B.21 |
| 22:57:56 | kjosh62 | oh i download v1 already |
| 22:58:12 | AlexP | That is the link to the specific album art section |
| 22:58:26 | AlexP | v2 and v1 are the same in that respect |
| 23:00 |
| 23:00:41 | kjosh62 | thank you so much for ur help AlexP!!! |
| 23:00:48 | AlexP | No problem |
| 23:00:50 | kjosh62 | u helped a lot |
| 23:01:04 | | Quit kjosh62 (Quit: CGI:IRC) |
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| 23:07:07 | | Join eRivas [0] (~be960063@giant.haxx.se) |
| 23:07:23 | eRivas | hello, what does a Data abort error mean? |
| 23:07:49 | eRivas | I get one when I try to load the radio screen |
| 23:09:16 | | Quit bertrik (Quit: :tiuQ) |
| 23:09:17 | n1s | it means that there probably is a bug in rockbox |
| 23:09:43 | eRivas | I changed the theme for the radio screen and it works now |
| 23:10:08 | [Saint] | what theme didn't work. |
| 23:10:20 | [Saint] | A theme shouldn't be able to mess anything up like that. |
| 23:10:46 | eRivas | iLike for Sansa Fuze |
| 23:11:02 | [Saint] | crap. |
| 23:11:08 | eRivas | I guess, though it may be a cfg file mistake |
| 23:11:13 | [Saint] | wait...what? |
| 23:11:23 | [Saint] | did *I* give that to you? |
| 23:11:39 | n1s | an invalid theme should still not crash rockbox |
| 23:11:46 | eRivas | see, I loaded a new theme, but the new theme didn't specify a new radio screen, so it used the old, in this case, iLike |
| 23:12:02 | [Saint] | no...especially not one I wrote ;) |
| 23:12:07 | eRivas | dont worry saint, someone must have ported your theme |
| 23:12:32 | [Saint] | is it one the themesite? |
| 23:12:39 | [Saint] | *on |
| 23:12:47 | | Join wodz [0] (~wodz@87-206-240-131.dynamic.chello.pl) |
| 23:12:53 | n1s | eRivas: could you file a bugreport in the tracker explaining what you did and which exact theme it was? |
| 23:12:57 | eRivas | http://themes.rockbox.org/index.php?target=sansafuze |
| 23:13:33 | [Saint] | who the hell... |
| 23:13:54 | AlexP | Opensource... |
| 23:13:59 | pixelma | your friend Drew Vosburg ;) |
| 23:14:13 | wodz | n1s: regarding your earlier talk about new m68k-elf-gcc - is not inlining some of the functions really the problem? |
| 23:14:14 | [Saint] | I have iLike for Fuze sitting on my Hdd...now I can't put it on the themesite because some other jerk made a hack job of it? |
| 23:14:37 | AlexP | [Saint]: I'd message him on the forums |
| 23:14:56 | n1s | wodz: i don't have any numbers but why would people mark functions inline if they shouldn't be? |
| 23:15:08 | eRivas | come on man, its creative commons |
| 23:15:30 | [Saint] | yes...but I have the ACTUAL port ready to upload. |
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| 23:15:52 | [Saint] | not a "quick port of another port" |
| 23:16:58 | wodz | n1s: Because they *think* this will work better for some reason. That doesn't mean they are right or the impact is negligible. |
| 23:17:56 | n1s | wodz: yes but without some numbers we don't know either way |
| 23:18:27 | wodz | n1s: anyway benchmarking lcd routines is quite easy and number of coldfire based targets is rather limited. |
| 23:18:34 | eRivas | btw, is there a way to modify a theme in the site, I made some changes to my Classic Fuze, but they are not worth a v2 reupload |
| 23:18:56 | n1s | wodz: yes, i should check wether this affects the h300 too and do a bench |
| 23:20:00 | [Saint] | eRivas: upload it again with the same credentials |
| 23:20:03 | wodz | n1s: where should be placed this ackward define to force inlining? I may bench hd300 eventually. |
| 23:20:04 | [Saint] | it will be replaced. |
| 23:20:15 | eRivas | can I update the description? |
| 23:21:04 | AlexP | yeah, it is names (theme and yours) and e-mail that need to be the same I think |
| 23:21:18 | n1s | if it matters, the h300 yuv blit should be affected, the regular lcd_update is dma and doesn't call anything in a loop |
| 23:22:01 | n1s | wodz: easiest is just to #define inline inline __attribute__((always_inline)) in some global header file like gcc_extenisons.h |
| 23:22:28 | [Saint] | Dammit...at the very least, this guy should upload my version in place of his if he won't rename it. |
| 23:22:42 | [Saint] | well, that sounds a bit demanding.."it would be nice if..." |
| 23:22:45 | amiconn | Forced inlining or uninlining should be used really carefully. If used for other things than nasty hacks which are needed for implementing threading, it should be tested on each architecture before enabling it |
| 23:23:23 | amiconn | And if it's a small snippet which always works better when inlined, it can be converted into a macro instead. That's "inlined" without forcing anyhing |
| 23:23:24 | | Join Galois [0] (djao@efnet-math.org) |
| 23:24:04 | n1s | sure |
| 23:24:24 | amiconn | Regular partial updates on H300 do use a loop in the isr |
| 23:26:34 | eRivas | [Saint]: but all of those credentials exactly secret, wouldn't that make rewriting other's theme possible? |
| 23:26:40 | amiconn | That only applies to updates which don't span whole lines, and it loops just once per line |
| 23:26:51 | eRivas | *arent exactly...* |
| 23:26:53 | | Quit TheLemonMan (Quit: free(me)) |
| 23:27:35 | [Saint] | eRivas: Yes, but...that's not the point here. I don't think it's an unreasonable request to ask him to rename the theme. |
| 23:27:43 | [Saint] | I don't want him to take it down. |
| 23:28:10 | amiconn | Speaking about small snippets - lcd_write_reg() and lcd_begin_write_gram() are candidates... |
| 23:28:18 | n1s | amiconn: exactly |
| 23:28:52 | n1s | lcd_write_reg is at least not inlined on the x5 and there it is called a lot in loops |
| 23:29:47 | n1s | ah, but they are inlined on the h300, probably because they are shorter |
| 23:30:51 | eRivas | [Saint]: I know, lol, just saying, imagine any troll ruining themes by reuploading useless files, etc |
| 23:31:38 | eRivas | [Saint]: and yeah, it wouldnt be a great deal, since you are the 'official' designer |
| 23:31:59 | [Saint] | eRivas: Yeah...it's just the name "iLike" that I have a particular fondness to, I actually love the fact that someone couldn't wait for me to finish the real version...perhaps he didn't even know. |
| 23:32:17 | [Saint] | I just...I'm just a bit gutted it stops me from uploading mine. |
| 23:32:49 | [Saint] | I'm sure I'll get over it ;) |
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| 23:38:49 | n1s | amiconn: with those 2 uninlined for the h300 the yuv tests (both 1/1 and 1/4) were 1 fps slower when boosted so it probably makes a measurable diff on the x5 too |
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