#rockbox 2011-02-08

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#rockbox log for 2011-02-08

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00:15:38	sideral	n1s, pixelma: I'm not sure what the conclusion of the lang string deprecation discussion is. What should I use in place of "none"?
00:16:04	sideral	And could you please file a bug against langtool.pl so that people are at least aware of the issue?
00:19:40		Quit mt (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
00:20:13		Join mlt- [0] (~8654d106@giant.haxx.se)
00:20:35	mlt-	Is UIsimulator broken under MinGW?
00:22:46	mlt-	First time it didn't find lang.h , but after I added -I into Makefile it can't find bitmaps/rockboxlogo.h . It compiled fine under ubuntu yesterday.
00:23:00	Zagor	mlt-: no idea. I don't know if anyone test it with mingw regularly.
00:23:19	mlt-	bummer
00:27:28	gevaerts	mlt-: I just tried a mingw build here, and it works fine
00:28:02	mlt-	hm.. do you have any idea what might be wrong?
00:28:21	mlt-	I have clean svn copy
00:28:43	mlt-	make 3.81 ... the only thing I miss is 'svnversion', but I guess that is fine
00:30:22	gevaerts	What OS are you using?
00:30:29	mlt-	Windows XP SP3
00:30:31	mlt-	32 bit
00:31:29	gevaerts	I'm on linux
00:31:33	gevaerts	Things might be different
00:32:30	mlt-	I can't find where "bitmaps.make" is getting included :(
00:32:56	Zagor	mlt-: in tools/root.make
00:33:13	mlt-	yeah.... this moment I was just looking at this place :-)
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00:48:35	mlt-	Zagor: could you tell me from where bmp2rb that is in bitmaps.make is getting called?
00:49:49	Zagor	it's in the tools dir
00:50:03	Zagor	or, what do you mean?
00:50:06	kugel	mlt-: there's tools like find and grep
00:50:15	Zagor	kugel: not in windows :)
00:50:18		Quit bertrik (Quit: :tiuQ)
00:50:44	mlt-	yes, but I can't find the actual rule that triggers that header creation for bitmap
00:50:54	mlt-	I have find & grep in MinGW :-)
00:51:22	kugel	Zagor: I think these tools (and some more) are requred for building rockbox
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00:52:29	Zagor	find and grep are not used in the build
00:52:35	mlt-	I think I have everything mentioned here http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/UiSimulator#Building_Windows_sim_in_Windows , but still can't compile.
00:53:20	Zagor	mlt-: what error do you get? put it on pastebin or some such place.
00:53:28	kugel	at the very least grep is used by configure
00:54:06	Zagor	kugel: indeed
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00:54:26	Zagor	in my had I sort of exclude configure from the build :)
00:54:30	mlt-	Zagor: I simply don't have "bitmaps/rockboxlogo.h" generated. So "apps/alarm_menu.c" fails to compile.
00:56:13	kugel	mlt-: does "make $PWD/bitmaps/rockboxlogo.h" work?
00:56:18	Zagor	mlt-: ok. the header files depend on the "object files" (bitmap files). so it sounds like you are not getting any bitmaps converted.
00:57:19	kugel	I once tried building rockbox on windows with msys/mingw but quickly gave up because I couldn't get genlang to work, so there's a can of worms out there
00:57:21	mlt-	kugel: it worked!
00:57:26	mlt-	it produced those headers
00:57:48	kugel	then perhaps dependency generation is broken
00:58:08	kugel	s/broken/not working correctly on windows/
00:58:46	mlt-	what can I check to help debug UIsimulator build under MS Windows?
00:58:57	Zagor	mlt-: grep native/rockboxlogo make.dep
00:59:06	kugel	make V=1 should give some useful output
00:59:14		Quit Slasheri (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
00:59:15	mlt-	now I'm getting undefined "LANG_ALARM_MOD_TIME_TO_GO" at apps/alarm_menu.c:116:29
00:59:27	Zagor	which target are you building for?
00:59:39	sideral	n1s, pixelma: changing lang strings to 'deprecated' (without quotes) does not seem to work
00:59:40	mlt-	62, sansaclipplus
01:00
01:00:14	mlt-	It finds stuff with grep native/rockboxlogo make.dep
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01:00:26	Zagor	mlt-: that's a similar error. your lang.h is not properly created.
01:00:33	kugel	perhaps a \-vs-/ issue?
01:00:36	Zagor	which make are you using? gmake?
01:00:47	mlt-	GNU Make 3.81
01:01:02	kugel	or C:\-vs-/ one even
01:01:07	mlt-	it is named just make.exe I believe
01:01:31	sideral	n1s, pixelma: .../english.lang:12701:1: warning: source before line lacks quotes (deprecated)!
01:01:36	mlt-	I see path separators in make.dep as '/' which is good
01:02:10	Zagor	do you have a space in your path?
01:02:31	Zagor	I mean the path to your build directory
01:02:38	kugel	ah that's also a nasty one :)
01:02:40	pixelma	sideral: I only knew of "" anyway
01:02:45	mlt-	no, I don't have spaces
01:02:58	Zagor	hmm
01:03:17	mlt-	it is "/c/workspace/rockbox/build"
01:03:25	sideral	pixelma: looks like n1s has to fix up that comment at the top of english.lang again :)
01:04:17		Quit kugel (Remote host closed the connection)
01:04:33	sideral	pixelma: Anyway, thanks for spotting this!
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01:05:05	Zagor	mlt-: can you do "make clean" and "make" and paste the full log somewhere? it appears something is being done in the wrong order.
01:05:39	mlt-	Can I just recreated my build directory and call make V=1 after configure?
01:06:10	Zagor	yes
01:06:46	sideral	pixelma: hrmpf... .../english.lang:12701:1: warning: missing user!
01:07:15	Zagor	mlt-: but I don't think V=1 helps here. it's likely a dependency issue.
01:08:44	mlt-	here it is http://pastebin.com/DRH5PwD3
01:09:41	mlt-	I can post the content of make.dep if it helps
01:09:55	Zagor	not yet
01:10:41	kugel	yea, the creator of the dependency generation script didn't add a lot debug output to it (Zagor ;-))
01:11:06	Zagor	well, dependencies don't benefit much from comments
01:11:23	Zagor	I actually think it might be the missing svnversion that causes it
01:11:42	Zagor	we use that to create a version number for the build
01:12:02	Zagor	and if that header file is not there, the dependency chain is broken
01:12:13	mlt-	I'm not sure if it is okay, but first 3 lines in make.dep are empty
01:12:45	mlt-	i thought it goes as 'undefined' if svnversion is not found
01:13:29	kugel	Zagor: only few files depend on version.h (fortunately)
01:13:41		Quit mudd1 (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
01:14:09	Zagor	mlt-: it should, yes. how many lines are your lang/lang.h in the build dir?
01:14:31	mlt-	I don't have one
01:14:41	Zagor	ah, of course :\|
01:14:45	Zagor	version.h?
01:15:53	Zagor	how many lines are in make.dep?
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01:18:59	Zagor	mlt-: ?
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01:21:30	mlt-	sorry I was away
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01:21:44	mlt-	90 lines in make.dep
01:21:53	mlt-	well 89
01:22:02	mlt-	is the last line with text
01:22:05	Zagor	wow. it's supposed to be ~75000
01:22:27	mlt-	hehe... then definitely something is wrong)
01:23:03	mlt-	this is the last line : /c/workspace/rockbox/build/apps/plugins/bitmaps/native/resistor.68x20x16.c: /c/workspace/rockbox/apps/plugins/bitmaps/native/resistor.68x20x16.bmp
01:23:03	Zagor	maybe multigcc.pl doesn't work on windows.
01:24:17	kugel	perhaps forking works differently/not at all
01:24:41	mlt-	I don't see any forking in multigcc.pl
01:24:56	Zagor	line 58
01:25:15	kugel	Unix programs that use fork() are usually in trouble on Windows iirc
01:25:15	mlt-	oh
01:26:10	mlt-	I guess I can try to use sequential thing and single core
01:29:12	Zagor	I should change multigcc.pl to not fork if $cores == 1
01:29:37	mlt-	I replaced fork with 0
01:29:51	mlt-	I still have 89 lines in make.dep
01:30:18	Zagor	do you have any .multigcc* files left?
01:30:34	mlt-	in build directory? no
01:30:50		Quit dfkt (Quit: -= SysReset 2.53=- Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc.)
01:32:04	Zagor	mlt-: change tools/functions.make:34 to not use multigcc.pl at all. (remove "perl" "multigcc" and "−−" from the line)
01:33:08	mlt-	so it should read as : mkdepfile = $(2) \| \
01:33:09	mlt-	?
01:33:12		Quit pamaury (Remote host closed the connection)
01:33:43	Zagor	no: mkdepfile = $(SILENT) $(CC) $(PPCFLAGS) $(OTHER_INC) -MG -MM -include config.h $(2) \| \
01:34:11	Zagor	multigcc only splits the gcc command to multiple cores
01:35:03	Zagor	you want to remove the space after SILENT too, so it's: $(SILENT)$(CC)
01:35:26	mlt-	ahh...
01:35:42	mlt-	make.dep is getting bigger
01:36:03	mlt-	3335 is the last line with text
01:36:25	mlt-	but still I get "... fatal error: lang.h: No such file ..."
01:36:33	Zagor	yes, that's still much too small
01:37:19	mlt-	and it actually looks weird
01:37:25	Zagor	oh, maybe you need to add "perl" in front of $(TOOLSDIR)/addtargetdir.pl in line 38
01:37:55	mlt-	in make.dep, I have many lines with "c:/workspace/rockbox/build/lang/lang.h \"
01:38:40	Zagor	yes, you should
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01:41:40	mlt-	addition of "perl" doesn't make any difference
01:42:02	mlt-	though I'm having "/bin/sh: /mingw/bin/gcc: Invalid argument" for some reason... I'm not sure where it comes from
01:42:05	kugel	I thought it should be /c/workspace/...?
01:42:25	mlt-	kugel: mingw stuff understands path either way
01:42:28	Zagor	mlt-: that certainly looks interesting
01:42:56	kugel	mlt-: but do the other tools as well? make etc?
01:44:32	Zagor	mlt-: you'll have to paste the gcc commandline and see what parameter mingw doesn't like
01:44:38	mlt-	kugel: I'm pretty sure they should... as they are built with mingw... so underlying c library or whatever supposedly takes care of it.
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01:46:17	kugel	isn't "/mingw/bin/gcc" the invalid parameter?
01:46:49	Zagor	kugel: oh, you're probably right. it's /bin/sh that says this
01:46:53	mlt-	kugel: no, it should be find... /mingw is mapped to /c/mingw in /etc/fstab
01:46:56	*	kugel assumes that path doesn't exist
01:47:09	kugel	oh
01:47:39	mlt-	I can call "/mingw/bin/gcc" no problems
01:48:00	Zagor	but can you call "/bin/sh /mingw/bin/gcc" ?
01:48:29	kugel	you need -C don't you?
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01:50:50	mlt-	with "/bin/sh /mingw/bin/gcc" I get "/mingw/bin/gcc: /mingw/bin/gcc: No such file or directory"
01:51:15	mlt-	I pinpointed gcc command that results in Invalid argument
01:51:44		Quit factor (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
01:52:06	mlt-	i'm afraid that command line may be too long
01:52:24	Zagor	oh right, windows has a length limit too
01:53:25	mlt-	If I try to execute this line http://pastebin.com/MZChvCkq , I get invalid argument error
01:53:37	kugel	that command doesn't work anyway. /bin/sh -C "/mingw/bin/gcc" should
01:54:27	mlt-	kugel: I mean if this was the problem, I would get another error
01:54:55	mlt-	I've got to go... I'll try it again later
01:55:04	Zagor	kugel: this is not cmd.exe
01:55:15	Zagor	mlt-: yeah I have to go too. good luck.
01:55:22	mlt-	thanks for help!
01:55:41	mlt-	I guess it worth adding a note to Wiki
01:55:45	mlt-	for now
01:55:49	kugel	Zagor: I know
01:55:56		Part Zagor
01:56:02	kugel	mlt-: good idea
01:56:32	mlt-	do you have rights to change it? Or shall I register and change it myself?
01:58:47	mlt-	anyway.... I'm leaving. see you later.
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06:51:21	CIA-7	New commit by kkurbjun (r29246): Fix battery charging.
06:53:33	CIA-7	New commit by kkurbjun (r29247): M:Robe 500: Use bit modifiers more.
06:55:27	CIA-7	r29246 build result: All green
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06:59:08	CIA-7	r29247 build result: All green
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09:55:02	n1s	sideral: just make the strings empty, "" instead, i suggested a fix for langtool yesterday but i'm not 100% sure it's ok, was hoping for a reply from rasher there
09:55:56	sideral	n1s: Thanks. Already did that. Good to know you're working on this −− that means I can close that bug report I was editing :)
09:56:29	n1s	i'll try to remember to commit it tonight
09:57:02	sideral	cool
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09:59:06	n1s	sideral: also that warning about using deprecated without quotes from genlang is a bug, it should work, as it used to work and there is code in genlang to replace deprecated with "", so using "" directly is equivalent
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10:40:19	sideral	n1s: OK. Are you tracking / logging that bug as well?
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10:42:26	n1s	sideral: no
10:43:06	n1s	i'm not really comfortable poking around in these perl scripts so i'd rather not :)
10:43:57	sideral	Could you log a Flyspray task? It's probably more useful if you post it rather than me...
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10:48:40	sideral	n1s: I've updated the patch that includes the lang-string deprecation. Could you have a quick look to check whether it looks sane? http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/11748?getfile=23295
10:50:11	n1s	yeah, looks fine now
10:51:34	sideral	thanks!
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15:03:16	NikolasZ	Hi ppl, i just install rockbox to my bro ipod nano g1. All ok and many thanks for your work. Now im waiting for g4 nano :). Again ty for great software!
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15:40:39	webguest741	Hi guys
15:41:02	webguest741	i've a problem with a theme that i downloaded from the themes webpage.
15:41:26	webguest741	its called "fullscreen" for the ipod video 5.5 gen
15:41:42	webguest741	apparently its missing the sbs file, and only has the .wps file
15:42:27	Torne	Does the theme cfg actually refer to an sbs file?
15:42:31	Torne	not all themes have a custom statusbar..
15:42:41	webguest741	thus the theme is not appearing correctly with remnants of the previous theme existing after the new one is applied
15:42:56	webguest741	there is no reference to an sbs file in the cfg file
15:43:18	webguest741	however, i have used this theme in the past and i remember how it looks like
15:43:40	Torne	perhaps you just need to set the statusbar back to the default, non-custom one?
15:44:00	webguest741	i just reset the rockbox settings to default
15:44:07	webguest741	that's all settings, not only theme settings
15:44:21	webguest741	but the old theme is still appearing over the new one
15:44:44	webguest741	here's the theme
15:44:47	webguest741	http://themes.rockbox.org/index.php?themeid=153&target=ipodvideo
15:44:56	Torne	the screenshot on the themes page shows it uses the non-custom statusbar
15:45:10	webguest741	as you can see, there are supposed to be custom elements on the sides
15:45:21	Torne	That's the WPS
15:45:29	Torne	there's no SBS
15:45:40	webguest741	precisely
15:45:49	Torne	er, no, not precisely
15:45:50	webguest741	so the sbs from the previous theme is being used
15:46:07	Torne	do you mean the while playing screen doesn't look right?
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15:46:13	Torne	becuase that's nothing to do witht he SBS
15:46:16	Torne	(probably)
15:46:29	webguest741	i reckon so
15:46:35	Torne	you reckon?
15:46:38	webguest741	as i have used the theme in the past without problems
15:46:42	Torne	does your while playing screen look like that screenshot, or not? :)
15:46:50	Torne	and does your menu look like the menu screenshot?
15:46:57	Torne	with the small text statusbar at the top?
15:47:08	webguest741	nope
15:47:12	webguest741	the menu one definitely doesn't
15:47:54	Torne	what does it look like, then?
15:48:11	webguest741	the wps does though
15:48:23	webguest741	the status bar is at the bottom
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15:49:09	Torne	but it's right other than that?
15:49:25	webguest741	yes
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15:49:42	Torne	..so the only problem is that the statusbar is at the bottom instead of the top?
15:49:44	webguest741	the icons aren't there either
15:49:45	Torne	that's a setting
15:49:48	Torne	change it.
15:49:58	Torne	as are whether the volume/battery are icons or numbers
15:50:08	Torne	http://download.rockbox.org/daily/manual/rockbox-ipodvideo/rockbox-buildch9.html#x12-1570009
15:50:10	webguest741	ah got it
15:50:13	webguest741	for the icons part
15:51:06	webguest741	i think i see what's the problem
15:51:35	webguest741	the base theme i used last time is not the same one as the one i have now
15:51:43	Torne	"base theme"?
15:51:51	webguest741	yes the sbs file
15:52:09	Torne	you said you reset the settings to defaults, though
15:52:14	Torne	whcih would've stopped using an SBS
15:52:18	Torne	as cabbiev2 doesn't have one
15:52:31	webguest741	and since "fullscreen" doesn't have a wps it uses the sbs
15:52:37	Torne	er
15:52:44	webguest741	i didn't reset it the last time i used it
15:52:46	Torne	i think you have your terms confused
15:52:57	webguest741	how so?
15:52:58	Torne	fullscreen doesn't have a custom statusbar (sbs)
15:53:03	Torne	it does have a custom while playing screen (wps)
15:53:09	webguest741	i understand that
15:53:16	Torne	that's the exact opposite of what you just said
15:53:38	webguest741	i believe the confusion is from this line "and since "fullscreen" doesn't have a wps it uses the sbs"
15:53:54	webguest741	i meant that it uses the sbs from the previous theme, that has one.
15:54:16	Torne	yes, lots of themes predate the introduction of custom statusbars
15:54:20	Torne	so they don't set that setting at all.
15:54:31	webguest741	and since the last time i used it, i didn't reset the settings to default, it looks different than now
15:54:41	Torne	If you reset your settings, or load the cabbiev2 theme, everything will go back to how it's supposed to be by default
15:54:44	webguest741	mm i see
15:54:49	Torne	and then if you choose fullscreen, it should look like the screenshots on the theme site
15:55:01	Torne	But yes, if you had a different theme before that did have an SBS then it will look different.
15:55:18	webguest741	i did a reset again, and it now looks like what it should
15:55:38	Torne	if you want it to look like it did before you'll have to remember whcih theme's SBS you were using by accident :)
15:55:50	webguest741	yep, and i just found it :)
15:55:54	webguest741	its AW200
15:56:03	webguest741	are you by any chance using the same player as i am?
15:56:15		Quit hebz0rl (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
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15:58:46	Torne	i use lots of players ;)
15:58:58	webguest741	ah i see
15:59:12	webguest741	so i suppose that you're great with rockbox then?
16:00
16:00:14	Ctcp	Ignored 6 channel CTCP requests in 3 minutes and 8 seconds at the last flood
16:00:14	*	Torne shrugs. He's a developer, so knows how it works :)
16:00:36	webguest741	cool
16:01:16	webguest741	i'm keen on developing my own theme. but i need a program that can convert .ttf to .fnt
16:01:22	webguest741	so that i can use it in rockbox
16:02:02	Torne	http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/CreateFonts
16:02:06	Torne	This is explained on the wiki :)
16:02:20	webguest741	oh thanks
16:02:53	webguest741	pardon me, i prefer to use irc channels for questions
16:03:14	webguest741	as i know there are kind and skilled people like yourself
16:04:48	gevaerts	You mean you don't value other people's time?
16:04:58	gevaerts	Pardon me for not pardonning you then
16:05:26	webguest741	i'm not sure i understand you gevaerts
16:06:17	gevaerts	Asking here means someone has to spend time to help you, searching the wiki or the manual not
16:06:23	webguest741	you're saying that by asking questions on the irc channel that can be answered elsewhere is a waste of other people's time?
16:06:31	gevaerts	yes
16:06:33	gevaerts	clearly
16:07:00	webguest741	true, but no one has the obligation to answer my query
16:07:08	gevaerts	If you don't find an answer, asking here is fine, but if you can't be bothered to look, you're arrogant
16:07:18	webguest741	of course i thank anyone who does
16:07:43	webguest741	i apologise if i came across as arrogant
16:07:51	webguest741	but that was not my intent
16:08:17	webguest741	i'll be sure to check the wiki next time :)
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16:08:54	webguest741	i did however, search the forums and the wiki for my first problem that i asked torne
16:08:54	gevaerts	Thanks :)
16:09:20	webguest741	the second, apparently unwarranted question, was just a small spin off
16:09:34	webguest741	that i thought of asking since we're on the subject on themes
16:10:20	webguest741	so no arrogance there, perhaps just a little oversight :)
16:10:40	webguest741	its getting pretty late where i am now, and i have school tomorrow
16:11:26	webguest741	so i'll be leaving, now, and i thank you and torne for your advice.
16:11:30	webguest741	goodbye
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16:52:37	*	[Saint] dislikes themes that forget to default values they don't apply but other themes might.
16:52:40		Quit hebz0rl (Quit: Leaving)
16:53:11	[Saint]	...leads to all sorts of cock-ups when applying themes, or the need to revert to cabbie in between each time.
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16:53:55	Torne	[Saint]: to be fair the SBS setting didn't exist when many of our themes were last uploaded :)
16:54:12	[Saint]	well, yes...this is true.
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16:56:37	evilnick_B	Plus you wouldn't want ALL settings to return to default on theme change
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19:19:05	Ayla	hello
19:19:14	Ayla	could anybody help me with this?
19:19:19	Ayla	http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/CodecPerformanceComparison#Portal_Player_40ARM7TDMI_41
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19:19:34	Ayla	I don't really understand what the percents mean
19:19:42	Ayla	and what's the Hz value
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19:20:49	AlexP	The MHz value is the processor speed that is needed to play realtime
19:21:14	AlexP	And the % realtime is how fast it plays relative to the max speed of the processor
19:21:37	AlexP	So to play without skipping, it needs to be 100% realtime (plus a little bit for the rest of Rockbox to run)
19:22:52	Ayla	ok, that's interesting
19:22:57	AlexP	so the lower the MHz value (and therefore the higher the % realtime value) the more efficient the codec
19:23:37	AlexP	In reality you need maybe 110% realtime for skip free playback, although if you use lots of DSP such as equalizer then this might change
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19:24:28	Ayla	are there tests with mp2a and mp1a?
19:24:39	AlexP	% realtime means that if a song is 3 minutes long and you have 200% realtime, then Rockbox takes 1 minute 30 to decode it
19:25:06	LambdaCalculus37	Ayla: MP2 and MP1 audio? No, I don't believe so. If you want to conduct such tests, feel free to.
19:25:08	AlexP	Not unless they are on the wiki somewhere
19:25:10	Ayla	thanks for the explanation :)
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19:25:39	Ayla	I'd like to do something with a ... 3 MIPS ARM chip
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19:25:56	Ayla	it's nowhere near powerful enough to decode audio, it seems
19:26:39	LambdaCalculus37	Ayla: 3 MIPS? You sure it's not 3 MHz?
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19:26:55	Ayla	officially 23,5MHz
19:27:23	Ayla	but it uses 2MB of SRAM shared memory, without cache, and has the lowest priority on it
19:27:36	Ayla	so it ends being around 3 MIPS
19:28:00	Torne	external ram?
19:28:15	Ayla	yes. That's the sound coprocessor of the dreamcast
19:29:09	Torne	You should be able to do some trivial codecs, but probably not anything psychoacoustic :)
19:30:08	Torne	The PortalPlayers have a slightly crappy cache fitted outside the main die, and have internal ram to store parts of the codec code and some of the workign data
19:30:19	Torne	and they still need the speeds listed int eh wiki
19:30:44	Ayla	ah, so they're limited too by a crappy hardware? That's interesting
19:30:57	Torne	well it's better than no cache
19:31:03	Torne	whcih is what's standard fro ARM7TDMI :)
19:31:09	Ayla	clearly
19:31:51	Torne	isn't there a DSP core in the dreamcast as well?
19:32:14	Torne	that would be how you normally do FFT-based codecs on tiny chips
19:32:22	Ayla	there is one, yes
19:32:32	Ayla	but it is a bit special, and not very known
19:32:59	Torne	almsot all DSP cores are a bit special and not very documented :)
19:33:11	Ayla	well, ok :)
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19:33:28	Ayla	actually, MAME emulates it, so there is at least a bit of documentation
19:33:51	Torne	technically if MAME emulates it correctly then that's a complete specification right there :)
19:34:20	Ayla	I said "documentation" :p
19:34:46	Ayla	I did have a look at it, it's very obscure
19:35:02	Torne	anyway, you are likely to be limited by memory speed there
19:35:21	Torne	i'd be surprised if anything like mpeg was realistically possible without heroic efforts
19:35:43	Torne	iirc games tended to do ADPCM which is really cheap but only gives you 4:1ish
19:36:04	Ayla	the hardware can decode ADPCM
19:36:23	Ayla	but those are used mostly for sound effects
19:36:34	Ayla	for music we used either CDDA or mp3/ogg
19:36:46	Torne	i doubt our codec code is going to be much help to you, anyway
19:36:52	Torne	not to run directly on the sound core.
19:37:24	Ayla	code for what?
19:37:54	Torne	..for our codec implementations?
19:37:59	Torne	i assumed that was what you're interested in
19:38:36	Ayla	well, currently I'm only trying to gather information, about the possibility of this
19:38:39		Quit LambdaCalculus37 (Quit: lunch over work time now!)
19:38:54	Torne	well, it's very hard to know whether it's possible without doing it.
19:39:11	Torne	you'd have to try :)
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19:39:36	Torne	the real-use-case effect of having slow shared memory might be a huge problem or might not be that bad
19:40:03	Torne	if you were decoding mp3 then the host cpu would be touching the shared soudn memory less often, since mp3 data is more dense than ADPCM or whatever..
19:40:05	Ayla	I guess I have to try yes, but if I try I want to choose the codec that suits that best before
19:40:14	Torne	so you may win more bus transactions in reality
19:40:27	Torne	Probably no modern codec suits that hardware
19:41:00	Ayla	yes I guess so, that's why I was asking for performance of mpeg1a and mpeg2a
19:41:10	Torne	nobody does layer 1
19:41:38	Ayla	ah. ok :)
19:42:00	Torne	well, it's pretty rare anyway
19:42:16	Torne	and i'm not sure that it's noticably cheaper than layer 2
19:42:47	Ayla	I heard mpeg2a is much cheaper to decode than mp3
19:42:48	Torne	heh,w e do have some benchmark results for it actually
19:42:53	Torne	not on that hardware
19:42:59	Torne	but the ratio is still probably reasonable
19:43:32	Torne	on i.mx31 mp3 requires ~30MHz, mp1/2 require ~25MHz
19:43:50	Torne	This might just be that the layer1/2 decoder hasn't been optimised as heavily
19:44:30	Torne	the ratio is pretty constnat across the different platforms on our wiki.
19:44:44	Torne	so, yeah, at least using our implementation layer3 is only 20% slower or so
19:44:57	Torne	which probably isn't enough to make a difference to whether it'll work for you or not
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19:45:40	Ayla	well, Musepack seems more interesting than mpeg2a here
19:45:57	*	Torne is leaving for now, anyway ;)
19:46:23	Ayla	ok, thanks for the tips
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21:00:45	kugel	thomasjfox: hey!
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21:00:58	thomasjfox	kugel: hey. Wait just some more seconds ;)
21:01:29	thomasjfox	kugel: My box crashed real hard before doing my first useful commit.
21:01:54	thomasjfox	kugel: Trying again now, removed some RAM. This hardware issue is starting to suck :o)
21:02:03	kugel	your first commit was useful, the website needs it to show your realname in the svn log :)
21:02:17	thomasjfox	hehe
21:02:36	pixelma	is any of the supported GoGears a flash target? I saw one from a hopefully to be colleague today but I didn't see any other specifications than "GoGear", not any of these numbers
21:03:06	gevaerts	One of the GoGears is very similar to the e200 IIRC
21:03:20	thomasjfox	kugel: The box crashed so hard it didn't even boot afterwards for several minutes. It has a POST display onboard and it showed really strange things... Stuck in SMBus initialization. wtf?
21:03:42	pixelma	gevaerts: hmm, I may have a look at the config file(s)
21:05:30	CIA-7	New commit by thomasjfox (r29248): Initial maemo platform support ...
21:06:08	*	thomasjfox crosses his fingers for no "red"...
21:07:01	thomasjfox	hey gevaerts
21:07:32	thomasjfox	gevaerts: Any idea how we should proceed with the "debian" directory?
21:07:53	gevaerts	hm
21:08:51	pixelma	gevaerts: #define MODEL_NAME "Philips GoGear SA200" <−− in the gogearsa9200 config file - is the missing 9 a typo?
21:09:22	gevaerts	pixelma: ah, you found the one bug that's blocking it from stable :)
21:09:45	pixelma	hmm?
21:09:53	gevaerts	Yes, that looks wrong
21:10:00	gevaerts	I think
21:10:48	CIA-7	r29248 build result: All green
21:10:55	thomasjfox	yeeeaahhh
21:11:39	kugel	thomasjfox: impressive :)
21:12:46	thomasjfox	Funny how subversion detected a "copy" from hosted/sdl/button-sdl.h to hosted/maemo/maemo-thread.h :o)
21:13:18	thomasjfox	kugel: So how's things? Busy with university?
21:13:32	kugel	yea
21:13:42	kugel	4 exams this week
21:13:47	thomasjfox	Ouch
21:14:55	*	pixelma suggests switching channels for this though ;)
21:15:23	kugel	thomasjfox: IIRC that's actually git detecting it, and git svn passing this info to svn
21:15:37	thomasjfox	I guessed so because you weren't able to finish the ucontext stuff yet
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21:19:00	kugel	thomasjfox: congratulations for that one :)
21:19:49	thomasjfox	kugel: Thanks ;) btw: What should we do about the cabbiev2 800x480 theme?
21:20:02	thomasjfox	It still has viewport bugs but is better than nothing at the moment
21:20:56	thomasjfox	This would give others a chance to look into it. On the other hand these are large binary files to bloat SVN. Guess the background picture won't change though...
21:22:10	kugel	someone needs to work on it :) I just did a very basic&preliminary port to have something to show off at the DevConPubBerlin ;)
21:22:14	AlexP	If we have both then could we get android to do rotation?
21:23:00		Quit tchan (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
21:23:34	kugel	it should be possible with some effort
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21:23:53	AlexP	I'm not terribly bothered :)
21:27:11	thomasjfox	so commit it? It's 2,3mb of .bmp files
21:27:55	thomasjfox	Not that the 480x800 gfx is smaller :)
21:27:59	bertrik	Does anyone know how the attempt to compile rockbox with clang went so far?
21:28:03	AlexP	We should have a cabbie for each target - if the images can't be reused from elsewhere, then yeah
21:28:59	thomasjfox	Biggest part is the "backdrop" anyway
21:29:31	thomasjfox	I'm just thinking if we switch to windowed mode in the future, we would need something like 800x462 instead of 800x480
21:29:33	AlexP	bertrik: clang won't cross compile, no?
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21:29:50	bertrik	yes, but I know Zagor tried it on a simulation build too
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21:30:34	AlexP	ah right
21:30:39	gevaerts	As far as I know he got sidetracked and he's now turning rockbox into lots of semi-standalone libraries with well defined APIs
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21:31:31	CIA-7	New commit by sideral (r29249): Make enable-autoresume option more consistent with other settings. ...
21:31:34	CIA-7	New commit by sideral (r29250): Do not update resume information and do not log statistics when a ...
21:31:39	CIA-7	New commit by sideral (r29251): Add option to resume next track on automatic track change ...
21:32:23	kugel	thomasjfox: not sure if we need a separate cabbiev2 for this 18 pixels
21:33:23		Quit Zarggg (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
21:34:34	thomasjfox	kugel: Any idea what happens if the backdrop is slightly larger than the screen? If we loose some pixels at the top, no problem. If we loose them at the bottom, it would affect the buttons
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21:35:59	thomasjfox	gevaerts: I have an idea about the debian directory. I'll try to create a "maemo" directory and put it below that. So it shouldn't interfere with "real" debian packaging
21:36:14	CIA-7	r29249 build result: All green
21:36:30	gevaerts	thomasjfox: that helps on our side, but it's a bit awkward when you actually need it
21:36:55	kugel	thomasjfox: IIRC we just load it partly
21:37:10	thomasjfox	gevaerts: Well, you can't specify an alternative "debian" directory to the debian build tools AFAIK
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21:37:17	gevaerts	thomasjfox: indeed not
21:37:31	gevaerts	Which means I don't really know...
21:37:46	thomasjfox	I quickly checked and didn't find something
21:38:11	thomasjfox	Anyhow I someone turns up and says "ahh, this is easy", we can still move it
21:38:18	gevaerts	Maybe people in #maemo have ideas?
21:38:25	thomasjfox	I someone = if someone
21:38:38	thomasjfox	let me try
21:39:47		Quit bmbl (Client Quit)
21:40:03	pixelma	gevaerts: shall I fix the GoGear typo? The keypad define uses 9200 as well
21:40:17	gevaerts	pixelma: that's probably a good idea
21:41:42	CIA-7	r29251 build result: 4 errors, 0 warnings (sideral committed)
21:43:52	sideral	Interesting. What's the configuration / make target that would have caught this pre-commit?
21:43:59	pixelma	I'll wait a bit for other people's commit series to be finished
21:45:08	pixelma	sideral: (D) database tool probably ;)
21:45:25	amiconn	thomasjfox: I noticed a slight annoyance with rockbox on n900: It does not update screen content when its shown in the task switcher. Other applications do that
21:45:32	gevaerts	sideral: the database tool, probably for any target
21:46:02	sideral	pixelma, gevaerts: I figured, but how is that tool built? Never came across that option
21:46:13	gevaerts	sideral: D in configure
21:46:27	sideral	ah OK, thanks gevaerts
21:46:34	sideral	will be fixed presently...
21:46:44	thomasjfox	amiconn: Yes, this is currently by design: The SDL screen updates cost -a lot- of CPU. Currently it can only detect it looses the input focus if you put it in the background and do something else
21:46:44	pixelma	that's what I said... :\|
21:47:29	thomasjfox	amiconn: I thought about a separate OS thread for the screen updates and do I just once a second or so if the input focus is lost
21:48:04		Quit L-Strife89 (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
21:48:15	amiconn	Hmm, it's not possible to detect task switcher?
21:49:01	thomasjfox	amiconn: We use SDL for the GUI stuff, probably we need to gather this information through other channels
21:49:09	thomasjfox	amicoon: Guess we can find this out via dbus :)
21:49:21	thomasjfox	amiconn: I'll put a note on my TODO list
21:50:30	CIA-7	New commit by sideral (r29252): Fix red: Do not compile autoresume() function for the database tool.
21:51:16	sideral	pixelma: ah, missed that in your message, sorry
21:52:00	pixelma	should have spelled it "(D)atabase tool" probably ;)
21:54:18	pixelma	hmm, if autoresume is part of the database, shouldn't it be included in the database tool (it's meant as a standalone tool to create your database on the PC). Although... you can't listen to your files with it... hmm
21:54:37	sideral	pixelma: yes, that what my fix-up commit fixes
21:54:44		Quit ender` (Quit: On the other hand, you have different fingers.)
21:55:27	pixelma	I was questioning that, but I admit that I only read the commit message here so far
21:55:27	CIA-7	r29252 build result: All green
21:55:49	thomasjfox	amiconn: No dbus signal for the task switcher. We have to detect this by another way
21:57:02	sideral	pixelma: Ah, I understand what you mean. Yes, the data parsing for the resume position should be included in the db tool. There was just an auxiliary function in metadata.c that didn't belong in the tool
21:57:36	sideral	pixelma: I'm done with my commits, you're good to go with yours
22:00
22:00:09	pixelma	aha, ok
22:01:33	pixelma	sideral: is this autoresume disabled for all targets that can not load the database to RAM?
22:02:12	sideral	No. But it shouldn't depend on the ability to load the DB to RAM.
22:02:38	sideral	(if by "disabled" you mean "not compiled in")
22:03:31	pixelma	just trying to figure out if we could exclude the lang strings for those as I think that's where the small binsize increase for them. Ok, not that way it seems (there's already a feature for database in RAM which I thought could be used)
22:03:42		Quit Stummi (Quit: Bye!)
22:04:16		Quit kugel (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
22:04:17	pixelma	add "comes from" at the appropriate place
22:05:49	sideral	I noticed the binsize increase as well. Any comments on whether it is in an acceptable order of magnitude and where it might come from (except for the lang string additions)?
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22:08:00	gevaerts	sideral: utils/analysis/bloat-o-meter.py :)
22:11:24	sideral	gevaerts: nice :)
22:12:31		Quit mordocai_afk (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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22:13:49	***	Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22:14:04	CIA-7	New commit by thomasjfox (r29253): Add cabbie theme for 800x480 ...
22:17:57		Quit Keripo (Quit: Leaving.)
22:18:27	CIA-7	r29253 build result: All green
22:20:18	pixelma	sideral: what defines if the feature is compiled in or not? Is there a HAVE_AUTORESUME then or so
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22:24:56	delt	Hello
22:25:06		Quit {phoenix} (Remote host closed the connection)
22:25:31	delt	quick question, recording "clipping light" on sansa e260 ..... what are "main" and "remote" units?
22:25:53	delt	the docs (pdf) says the screen flashes to indicate clipping, but not much more..
22:26:10		Quit benedikt93 (Quit: Bye ;))
22:26:25	AlexP	Some players have an lcd remote
22:26:39	AlexP	So if this is included in the e200 manual it is by mistake
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22:28:44	delt	copypasta from earlier/other players? =)
22:28:51	delt	also, "remote" lcd?
22:29:06	delt	uh i mean lcd "remote"
22:29:16	pixelma	a remote with its own display
22:29:27	delt	ah, remote control, which controls the player?
22:29:35	pixelma	yes
22:30:19	delt	ah ok, thanks for the info. the e2x0's (mechanical) scroll wheel lights up, i thought that could be used as peak/clip indicator...?
22:32:22	pixelma	it probably could as Rockbox is able to control it separately (e.g. there's a setting to turn it off completely), I don't think anyone did the needed changes though and I never heard someone suggesting this before
22:33:11	delt	oh btw, feature request: could "wheel light timeout" be set to zero seconds? ie. lights up on input, then immediately shuts down, without waiting >= 1 sec.
22:33:45		Quit kugel (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
22:33:57	delt	settings are: on, off (always on/off) then start at 1 sec. (stay on for x sec. after last input)
22:34:56	delt	at 1sec. it's just confusing
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22:36:27	bertrik	I don't see the confusion about it
22:36:52	delt	and/or annoying
22:36:53		Quit kugel (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
22:37:26	delt	and it's nice to have the circle light up, can show you if the player is frozen etc etc (+ it looks cool)
22:38:20	delt	except keeping it lit up after last input (even 1 sec.) is ... well, like i said, either annoying or confusing :/
22:38:57	delt	and i don't really feel like messing in the code right now... so, hence the feature request =)
22:39:02	thomasjfox	gevaerts: paultag might help us with the debian stuff. He's on to something
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22:42:23	CIA-7	New commit by pixelma (r29254): Correct typo in the Philipps SA9200 config file.
22:44:40	delt	anyway, thanks for the info
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22:46:07	linuxstb	Does anyone object to changing the touchscreen cabbies so that the play/pause icon is reversed, showing the action taken when it is pressed, rather than the status? i.e. when playing, the pause icon is shown, and when paused, the playback icon is shown.
22:46:15	*	linuxstb isn't sure about the other playback modes though...
22:46:32	CIA-7	r29254 build result: All green
22:47:18	linuxstb	Also, shouldn't configure be showing a list of RaaA targets, instead of just one (200) with a follow-up question?
22:48:53	AlexP	linuxstb: no objection, it seems more natural and what other (at least android) media players do
22:48:56	AlexP	and yes
22:49:37	thomasjfox	gevaerts: Something like this: http://raphaelhertzog.com/2010/09/27/different-dependencies-between-debian-and-ubuntu-but-common-source-package/
22:50:15	gevaerts	hm, maybe, yes
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22:52:59	linuxstb	AlexP: The slight complication is that that icon is actually playback status - including stop, fw & rew...
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22:55:42	thomasjfox	gevaerts: Damn, we just came up with the idea to use git branches and keep distro-specific debian/ directories on different branches
22:55:52	thomasjfox	gevaerts: That won't work for rockbox right now
22:56:08	gevaerts	I'm not convinced that would work well anyway
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22:57:23	AlexP	linuxstb: Yes, and having to long press play to stop is completely non obvious at the moment
22:57:29	thomasjfox	gevaerts: What do you think about committing the "debian" directory in the maemo-specific state right now? Later on we can improve it with automatic distro detection if someone feels like writting debian build rules for RaaA
22:57:46	gevaerts	That probably makes most sense
22:58:00	saratoga	i think without cache you'd probably need 200+ MHz to decode MP3
22:58:17	saratoga	on arm7tdmi
22:58:50	linuxstb	AlexP: Ah, I didn't think of that. So we should have a stop icon/button?
22:59:37	AlexP	I think so - I think we need play/pause (as you suggested), stop and ffd/rwd
23:00
23:01:47		Quit kevku (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
23:03:05	*	linuxstb sees there are two target_id=60s in configure...
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23:07:37	kugel	AlexP: long play is how it works on my other rockbox targets
23:07:49	AlexP	kugel: On other touchscreen?
23:07:51	CIA-7	New commit by dave (r29255): Fix a duplicate target_id
23:08:12	kugel	I meant my e200 and fuze actually
23:08:25	AlexP	Sure, lack of buttons don't hep there
23:08:40	AlexP	But for touchscreen you expect to press what you see
23:08:45	kugel	ah wait, I lied about the e200
23:08:52	AlexP	And long pressing on play to stop feels very wrong on touchscreen
23:09:07	kugel	I agree it's not obvious, but on the wps there's also lack of space
23:09:16	AlexP	same as clicking play to pause feels wrong
23:09:39	CIA-7	New commit by thomasjfox (r29256): debian directory needed to build maemo packages ...
23:09:44	AlexP	There are some other big bits, I don't think a reorganisation to add a stop icon would be impossible
23:10:41	kugel	most other media players don't even offer a stop option so I thought it would be ok
23:10:50	AlexP	also, ffd/rwd should be permanently visible and not hidden behind the logo IMO
23:10:56		Quit plux (Quit: qux)
23:11:13	AlexP	kugel: Trouble is, stopping is the only way I found of getting rid of the notification icon if I wasn't using Rockbox
23:11:48	kugel	we could hide the icon
23:12:01	kugel	(on pause)
23:12:06	kugel	that's probably what people expect
23:12:17	AlexP	If it is paused, is it using up any resources as opposed to being stopped?
23:12:18	CIA-7	r29255 build result: All green
23:12:19	Bagder	that's what other players do
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23:13:10	linuxstb	Shouldn't different RaaAs have different target_ids?
23:13:13	kugel	AlexP: I'm not sure, I don't know the internals, but I suspect there's not a big difference
23:14:00	AlexP	kugel: I'll see if I can find out, some sort of task manager should tell me :)
23:14:13	kugel	the task manager shows no difference
23:14:36	AlexP	OK, then cool - hiding the icon would satisfy me
23:14:37	kugel	I checked that already long ago :)
23:15:06	thomasjfox	kugel: I've one more thing to upstream: Basic plugin support for RaaA
23:15:24	linuxstb	(and also different config files?)
23:15:44	thomasjfox	kugel: The changes to apps/plugin/SOURCES are a bit messy I think
23:16:27	CIA-7	r29256 build result: All green
23:16:27	kugel	since plugins are in a horrible situation w.r.t. to touchscreen I didn't bother with them for android yet
23:16:30	AlexP	gevaerts: r.e. android signing, could the builds be done on clients then the server do the signing on the uploaded build?
23:16:34	thomasjfox	kugel: Look at "git diff master..maemo-port" to see what I mean
23:16:46	gevaerts	AlexP: maybe. I'm not a specialist
23:16:50	kugel	n900 has a keyboard so it's perhaps not as bad
23:16:51	AlexP	I think lots of plugins don't make much sense for app
23:17:01	linuxstb	AlexP: Do any?
23:17:05	kugel	we could have a seperate SOURCES for RaaA
23:17:09	thomasjfox	kugel: Well, the credits screen is a must have I guess?
23:17:21	kugel	I most probably don't want to enable all plugins anyway
23:17:26	AlexP	linuxstb: a few maybe, like random_folder_advance, credits
23:17:45	kugel	pictureflow :)
23:17:56	domonoky	DOOM ! :-)
23:18:05	AlexP	yeah, pictureflow for them as like it
23:19:29	thomasjfox	kugel: We could if we apply this patch: http://pastie.org/1542688
23:20:19	kugel	s/PLATFORM_HOSTED/PLATFORM_MAEMO/ :)
23:20:41		Quit TheLemonMan (Quit: free(me))
23:20:47	thomasjfox	The other platforms also break because of missing key bindings
23:20:51	thomasjfox	Atleast the SDL platform
23:21:17	kugel	remember _HOSTED includes the simulator
23:21:22	thomasjfox	ah fuck
23:21:25	kugel	all of them
23:21:33	thomasjfox	not again :)
23:21:36		Quit stephen__ (Quit: Leaving)
23:21:52	kugel	:)
23:22:18	linuxstb	Shouldn't that use #ifdef APPLICATION?
23:22:39	sideral	pixelma: The feature is supported when the DB is compiled in and (currently) only for SWCODEC.
23:23:07	thomasjfox	linuxstb: Yes it should...
23:23:22	kugel	if it should include android, then yes
23:23:54		Quit domonoky (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
23:24:05	linuxstb	kugel: Well, shouldn't all RaaA targets be the same wrt plugins?
23:24:06	thomasjfox	kugel: Would you mind if I enable plugins on android?
23:24:18	kugel	I still want someone to work on touchscreen interfaces for the plugins before enabling them ;)
23:24:55	thomasjfox	Well, most of the plugins get disabled by the patch. Just the basics like credits or pictureflow get built
23:25:05	*	linuxstb would like to clean up configure, so it has separate menu entries for each RaaA instance (SDL, Android, Maemo4, Maemo5)
23:25:15	sideral	pixelma: the DB has a HAVE_TAGCACHE toggle, which by default is set for almost all targets IIRC
23:25:18	thomasjfox	linuxstb: I wouldn't midn
23:25:21	kugel	I'd rather have a separate SOURCES.application or so instead of this #ifdef hell
23:26:02	kugel	linuxstb: I don't think separating maemo 4 and 5 is useful
23:26:30	linuxstb	kugel: They are different builds, hence different targets. They need different build environments that should be checked for.
23:26:32	thomasjfox	kugel: Good point. OTOH people might miss to modify SOURCES.application if they modify SOURCES
23:26:54	kugel	linuxstb: IIRC you use the same environment
23:27:16	kugel	but right, the different builds is a valid point
23:27:25	linuxstb	Yes, but with the version set to 4 or 5. (IIUC)
23:27:46	linuxstb	So if a user tries to build maemo4 when the sdk is configured for maemo5, configure should complain.
23:27:57	thomasjfox	linuxstb: You would need to extend the debian/rules, too if you split it up
23:28:01	kugel	I think a unified build is possible, at the expense of armv7 optimizations (?)
23:28:40	kugel	(obviously I know next to nothing about building for maemo)
23:29:37	kugel	thomasjfox: SOURCES hardly change, I expect we can keep up with other people changing it
23:29:50	thomasjfox	kugel: ok
23:30:04	thomasjfox	kugel: So that approach is better
23:31:12	thomasjfox	kugel: I'll give your app-disable-codec-buffering branch a quick spin
23:31:15	kugel	plugins are a bit tricky w.r.t. to the C library (see your simple_viewer.c hunk)
23:31:35	kugel	some make library calls via rb, some use #define
23:31:48	kugel	and some system header also use #define, which in the end just clashes
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23:32:58	kugel	IMO it would be better to expose the C library calls without rb (direct calls on hosted, wrappers for rb-> on daps)
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23:38:35	Llorean	Were the recent autoresume commits discussed in more detail on IRC instead of in the ML thread? Last I was aware, several devs were still objecting, and it didn't really have that much support.
23:38:55	Llorean	If the situation really changed I'd appreciate a reference to what day to look at the IRC logs for.
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23:39:23	thomasjfox	kugel: Codec switching works like a charm with the patch from the "app-disable-codec-buffering" branch
23:39:27	kugel	Llorean: the FS task describes his new proposal
23:39:39	kugel	it has changed
23:39:51	kugel	thomasjfox: awesome :)
23:40:06	Llorean	kugel: The commit is still in line with the old stuff we were objecting to though
23:41:20	pamaury	what happen when you disable the MMU on arm ? (with respect to caching mostly)
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23:42:14	thomasjfox	kugel: Mixing mp3, wav and mikmod works fine, too. Care to commit upstream? :)
23:44:21	kugel	Llorean: I don't see that
23:44:47	Llorean	kugel: Care to explain how it addresses any of the objections I had re it s requirement to use the database, or needless automation?
23:44:57	Llorean	It still does both of those.
23:45:29	Llorean	The only thing it changes is that it now has less options listed for configuring the automation.
23:45:35	kugel	that were your objections, not mine
23:45:41	AlexP	I thought most people accepted the use of the database?
23:45:41	Llorean	And removes the skip prevention.
23:45:59	AlexP	I'd still love it if it could just add tracks as needed so I don't have the full database going :)
23:46:01	Llorean	AlexP: I don't know. I didn't see any further discussion in the thread.
23:46:07	Llorean	It seems to me like it was "silently" added.
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23:46:40	Llorean	I thought there was that whole discussion about "if people object, there need to be X speaking in favor more than objectors" idea outstanding, etc.
23:46:51	kugel	Llorean: he discussed on irc, and he has made another post to the ML, and gave it a few days. that's not even close to silent
23:47:03	Llorean	kugel: I didn't see another post to the mailing list at all recently
23:47:39	Llorean	He did post a new thread on the 21st.
23:48:02	Llorean	But I didn't see anyone then speak up in new agreement with it after the changes.
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23:48:36	Llorean	And at that time his post was a summary of the contention points
23:48:40	kugel	then you were not active enough to see it. the proposal he implemented and committed is almost two weeks old
23:48:45	Llorean	He never posted to the mailing list (as far as emails I received) about the new changes in his patch
23:49:13	kugel	thomasjfox: sure, soonish :S
23:49:19	Llorean	kugel: So I have to restate that I still object every singe time a change is made to the task now? Shouldn't it be assumed that if my objections aren't addressed (and they weren't, at all) that I still object?
23:49:21	sideral	Llorean: This was indeed discussed at length here on IRC
23:49:35	Llorean	sideral: I thought you were the one who kept saying we should discuss it on that thread...
23:49:49	kugel	my objections were addressed so I'm fine with it
23:49:52	Llorean	sideral: Did you achieve significant agreement then? Can you link me to where in the archives this happened?
23:50:20	kugel	well, I still would like to see a unified autoresume+bookmarks solution, but that's too much to ask for currently
23:50:23	sideral	Well, you didn't reply to my last few messages on the mailing list or in the tracker. I was actually expecting you to chime in
23:50:40	Llorean	sideral: I didn't receive anything more recent than Jan 21st
23:50:48	Llorean	And that message only contained a link to your summary of contention points.
23:51:07	sideral	Llorean: Aren't you subscribed to the relevant tracker item?
23:51:18	Llorean	Considering you very obviously didn't address any of the points I objected to other than "too many options" I don't see why you would assume I agree due to silence.
23:51:39	Llorean	sideral: Yes, but for whatever reason, I didn't receive mails on the last three updates to the task.
23:51:41	sideral	Let me find you that IRC discussion, just a sec
23:51:56	Llorean	And again, didn't you say we should hold the discussion on the mailing list?
23:51:59		Quit Keripo (Quit: Leaving.)
23:52:06	Llorean	I assumed you meant that, and expected more discussion to happen there before anything happened.
23:52:07	thomasjfox	kugel: Would be nice to have it in before Sunday, if your time schedule permits :)
23:52:17	kugel	Llorean: that's because you are not subscribed...
23:52:30	Llorean	kugel: I was in the past, I received updated to the task previously...
23:52:53	Llorean	At least I thought I was.
23:53:00	kugel	Llorean: point me to the task's history item that shows you are/were
23:53:21	thomasjfox	who do I need to bug to get more privileges in FS to close my own bug?
23:53:29	gevaerts	thomasjfox: Zagor
23:53:37	sideral	Llorean: I actually said that we should discuss one particular topic on the mailing list, which is your presumption that I do not want to fix the bookmarking system
23:53:43	Llorean	kugel: As I said I thought I was. Perhaps I made a mistake.
23:53:45	thomasjfox	gevaerts: Still waiting for that wiki mail :o)
23:54:05	Llorean	kugel: As I said though, silence after objection should not be assumed for a change of attitude. It's silly if you haven't addressed the objections to assume the attitude changed.
23:54:11	AlexP	thomasjfox: bug the same person for that :)
23:54:20	gevaerts	thomasjfox: try to get here between 10 and 16 or so during the work week. He's usually online then
23:54:25	kugel	IMO if you feel to strong about it you should be subscribed to the FS item and search recent irc logs for the keywords (not necessarily reading the logs). the ML isn't our only communications channel
23:54:29	Llorean	sideral: You actually responded to several of my objections, not just that one, with "take your objections to the mailing list"
23:54:30		Join Stephen__ [0] (~S@86.42.26.228)
23:55:15	Llorean	kugel: I still haven't had my question answered - what was the vote? How many changed from against to for to give it enough numbers?
23:55:20	Llorean	If that happened, it should be simple enough to answer.
23:55:27	sideral	Llorean: I know full well that not all of your objections were addressed. It should be clear that we do not agree on everything.
23:55:46	Llorean	sideral: My question though, is who changed over? How many peoples' objections were addressed?
23:55:49	thomasjfox	gevaerts: Will try. Though I usually stay out of IRC at work...
23:55:53	sideral	Llorean: I'm sorry for the misunderstanding re: mailing list discussion.
23:55:59	kugel	Llorean: I'm only maintaining that the commit didn't happen silently or behind your back
23:56:04	AlexP	kugel: We probably ought to have a guideline for things like this that a summary of an IRC discussion is posted to the mailing list
23:56:06		Quit komputes (Remote host closed the connection)
23:56:18	AlexP	kugel: As it is hard not to miss things sometimes
23:56:20	kugel	I can't tell whether your objections were addressed or not, as I can't remember them
23:56:25	Llorean	kugel: The thread on the ML for discussing it though wasn't updated at all regarding changes in its status. While it wasn't silently, that is a little annoying.
23:56:38	Llorean	kugel: Especially when he kept trying to send me back to the list when I wanted to discuss it on IRC earlier.
23:56:56	Llorean	I had oral surgery recently and have been too drugged to keep up with realtime discussion.
23:58:03	Llorean	I'll admit that may have been my misunderstanding, but it seems like there should at least have been a response to that thread mentioning the changed features.

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